Seanad Éireann

Vol. 272 Thursday, No. 3 5 November 2020

DÍOSPÓIREACHTAÍ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES SEANAD ÉIREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIÚIL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Insert Date Here

05/11/2020A00100Gnó an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad ��206

05/11/2020B00125Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters ��208

05/11/2020B00150Water Services ��208

05/11/2020E00200Flood Relief Schemes �� 211 Urban Development ��213

05/11/2020J00200European Health Insurance Card ��216

05/11/2020L00300Travel Trade Sector ��219

05/11/2020O00400School Accommodation ��222 Resignation of Member ��226

05/11/2020T00200Ábhair Ghnó an tSeanaid - Matters on the Business of the Seanad ��226

05/11/2020NN00100Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2020: Order for Second Stage ��239

05/11/2020NN00400Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2020: Second Stage ��239

05/11/2020HHH00100Biodiversity: Motion ��251 SEANAD ÉIREANN

Déardaoin, 5 Samhain 2020

Thursday, 5 November 2020

Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m.

Machnamh agus Paidir. Reflection and Prayer.

05/11/2020A00100Gnó an tSeanaid - Business of Seanad

05/11/2020A00200An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from Senators Róisín Garvey and Malcolm By- rne that, on the motion for the Commencement of the House today, they propose to raise the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to provide an update on the roll-out of improvements to water and wastewater infrastructure in Ireland.

I have also received notice from Senator Tim Lombard of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to make a statement on the allocation of funding to Cork County Council for the repair works following the flood damage in August 2020.

I have also received notice from Senator John Cummins of the following matter:

The need for Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to provide an update on the allocation of funding to Waterford City and County Council for the North Quays project.

I have also received notice from Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to outline whether the Government will cover the costs of citizens in the North of Ireland to ensure they retain their right to hold a European health insurance card post-Brexit.

I have also received notice from Senator Erin McGreehan of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to make a statement on the current challenges faced by the travel agent industry in Ireland.

I have also received notice from Senator Marie Sherlock of the following matter: 206 5 November 2020 The need for the Minister for Education to provide an update on the provision of a permanent building for Clonturk Community College, Whitehall, Dublin 11.

I have also received notice from Senator John McGahon of the following matter:

The need for Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage to allocate urban regeneration funding for the Bridge Street and Linenhall Street areas in Dundalk, County Louth.

I have also received notice from Senator Mary Seery Kearney of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Transport to make a statement on the terms of reference for the feasibility study into the MetroLink to Knocklyon, Dublin 16.

I have also received notice from Senator Paddy Burke of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications to make a statement on the problems associated with the collection and disposal of farm waste plastic and whether the law in relation to section 60(3) of the Waste Management Act 1996 needs to be reviewed.

I have also received notice from Senator Fiona O’Loughlin of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Defence to make a statement on plans to improve pay and conditions for members of the Irish Defence Forces.

I have also received notice from Senator Jerry Buttimer of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Finance to clarify whether travel agents qualify for the Covid restrictions support scheme, CRSS.

I have also received notice from Senator Shane Cassells of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Education to provide an update on the development of a new school for St. Mary’s Special School, Navan, County Meath.

I have also received notice from Senator Victor Boyhan of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Finance to make a statement on his plans to reform the local property tax.

I have also received notice from Senator Martin Conway of the following matter:

The need for the Minister of State with responsibility for special education and inclusion to outline her plans to carry out a review of visiting teachers services for visually impaired students at second level.

I have also received notice from Senator Timmy Dooley of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Education to provide funding for the construction of a physical education hall as part of the school extension at Gaelscoil Mhíchíl Chiosóg, Ennis, County Clare.

I have also received notice from Senator Garret Ahearn of the following matter: 207 Seanad Éireann The need for the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications to make a statement on the roll-out of the national smart metering programme.

I have also received notice from Senator Fintan Warfield of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment to examine contractual issues for mobile home owners in holiday parks.

I have also received notice from Senator Lynn Boylan of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to outline the measures to be undertaken to ensure the responsible sale of dogs in the lead up to Christmas.

I have also received notice from Senator Seán Kyne of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health to make a statement on the policy and practice in Irish hospital regarding “do not resuscitate” or “do not attempt resuscitation” orders.

I have also received notice from Senator Robbie Gallagher of the following matter:

The need for the Minister for Health to put a plan in place for consultation between the Department of Health and NPHET to ensure the safe reopening of retail establishments in December 2020.

The matters raised by the Senators are suitable for discussion. I have selected the matters raised by Senators Garvey, Byrne, Lombard, Cummins, Ó Donnghaile, McGreehan and Sherlock and they will be taken now. The other Senators may give notice on another day of the matters that they wish to raise.

05/11/2020B00125Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

05/11/2020B00150Water Services

05/11/2020B00200An Cathaoirleach: I welcome the Minister of State to the House to deal with the issue of water and wastewater infrastructure as raised by Senators Byrne and Garvey. The Senators are sharing time and have four minutes in total. Should I toss a coin to determine who goes first?

05/11/2020B00300Senator Róisín Garvey: Senator Byrne is letting me go first and is hoping I will stop early and leave him some time.

05/11/2020B00400An Cathaoirleach: He is a gentleman to his fingertips.

05/11/2020B00500Senator Róisín Garvey: Letting me go first is a big risk.

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House to discuss this important issue. Water is the basis of all human life. We live in, we drink it, we sleep in it, we wash ourselves in it, we grow all our food with it and we swim in it. It is such an important issue and we still have major problems with water in rural Ireland. That is why I and my colleague, Senator Byrne, are rais- 208 5 November 2020 ing this matter today. The lack of infrastructure is paralysing the renewal of villages and towns and that is something on which we both fought during the programme for Government negotiations. If we do not sort out our water network, we will not have housing or people living in our villages and towns again. People will not move back into derelict buildings and they will not be able to build houses in the serviced sites around our villages and towns. I will give one example but I could cite many between Malin Head to Mizen Head. Broadford is a lovely village on the other side of the county in east Clare, very near Limerick city. It is a perfect place for people who cannot afford the city prices or who do not want to deal with city traffic or large schools and businesses. Such people could move to Broadford but it has no water infrastructure. It has an amazing school and is a lovely village but without water infrastructure nothing is going to happen there. There are so many beautiful old buildings that could be lived in, renewed and revived but they need water treatment plants, as do many other towns.

A total of 36 areas in ten counties are still releasing untreated wastewater into our environment. In 57 areas across 21 counties, raw sewage discharges are the only significant pollutant for bodies of water. We often try to blame farmers for everything but I am claiming this one back as a problem of raw sewage. Some 66% of environmental water pollution incidents are due to a lack of sufficient treatment capacity.

Of course we have one-off issues with water as well but one very important issue has come to light. It is becoming so serious now that families are ringing me whose children are experiencing kidney failure as a result of swimming in water with E. coli. This is happening again and again. County Clare had to close its beaches numerous times over the short summer during which businesses could make some money. That is why I am going to keep highlighting this as often as I can until we get the funding sorted. It was great to see this issue included in the budget but today we want clarity around when the Government is going to act. We set up Irish Water to solve the significant problems that existed such as half our treated water leaking but we need to take this seriously if we are serious about regional rebalance. Now that people can work from home more, this is the most important time to do this. If we do it right, it could be a real turning point and villages and towns that have been waning for years to finally becoming bright, shiny places to live in again. That is what we need for people’s mental, physical and social health.

05/11/2020C00200Senator Malcolm Byrne: I echo the remarks of the Senator. Much as this is an issue in Clare, it is also an issue in counties Wexford, Kilkenny and Carlow. This is not just an environmental concern. Dealing with this issue could revitalise our rural communities and villages. We have a planning issue whereby many people are being told they cannot have one-off housing, but we should at least allow them to live in their local villages. Doing so will also support the local shops, post offices and schools. Our problem at the moment is that many villages lack the three Ws - water, Wi-Fi, and wastewater. If we can address those matters, we can revolutionise how we support rural living. This is about small towns and villages all over the country such as Ferns, Camolin, Our Lady’s Island, Ramsgrange and Campile in County Wexford. There are many others and I am sure the Minister of State could name some in Kilkenny as well. Imagine if we as a Government were able to provide the infrastructure to those villages. It would support our remote working strategy and would be far more sustainable environmentally, but most important, the quality of life for people living in those communities would be transformed. That is why both I and Senator Garvey wanted to raise this but I am sure it is a concern of Senators in all parties and Members of both Houses. We ask that the Government prioritises a programme to provide the necessary water and wastewater infrastructure for our

209 Seanad Éireann rural towns and villages.

05/11/2020C00300Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan): I thank Senators Garvey and Byrne for raising this important issue and doing it so well and speaking so eloquently on behalf of the communities they represent. I am very familiar with some of the places listed, as someone from as a neighbouring county in a beautiful part of the country. From the programme for Government point of view, it is vitally important that this is a core element of our town centres first policy. If we are serious about balanced regional development and our smaller towns and villages, water and wastewater infrastructure, along with broadband and Wi-Fi, are critical infrastructure. That is absolutely correct. I wholeheartedly endorse and support the Senators’ raising of this issue. It is timely and important. Since 1 January 2014, Irish Water has had statutory responsibility for all aspects of public water service planning, delivery and operation at the national, regional and local levels. As the Senators will be aware, prior to that the 31 local authorities were responsible and would have had the capability to fulfil that responsibility, were it not for persistent underfunding. As part of budget 2021, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage has secured funding of more than €1.4 billion to support water services. This includes €1.3 billion in respect of domestic water services provision by Irish Water. This overall investment will deliver significant improvements in our public water and wastewater services, support improved water supplies right across Ireland, including in rural Ireland, and support a range of programmes delivering improved water quality in our rivers, lakes and marine area. The programme for Gov- ernment commits to supporting the take-up of Irish Water’s small towns and villages growth programme, which is intended to provide water and wastewater growth capacity in smaller settlements which would not otherwise be provided for in its capital investment plan.

It should also be noted that Irish Water is subject to independent economic regulation by the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, which determines the revenue required by Irish Water to meet its efficient operating and capital costs to ensure that it operates in an efficient manner in delivering its services to customers. Therefore, Irish Water put forward to the CRU for consideration proposals for a small towns and villages growth programme as part of its capital investment plan for the period from 2020 to 2024. The programme is intended to support of a number of the national policy objectives and national strategic outcomes under the national planning framework. I understand from Irish Water that an allocation of €97.5 million for this programme was approved by the CRU. I also understand that the design of projects is now commencing and that investment under the programme will begin to deliver in the coming years. Irish Water is working with local authorities across the country to ensure the investment supports the growth of identified settlements where these are prioritised in line with the local authority development plans, which again align and will come on stream in the coming months.

In addition to the major investment delivered by Irish Water, my Department also funds rural water investment under the multi-annual rural water programme. This programme supports investment in community-based group schemes and the improvement of wells and septic tanks. The current investment programme is based on recommendations from the working group established in April 2018 to conduct a review of rural water services.

There is a two-strand approach to the considerations of the working group. The first strand considered the composition and distribution of funding under the rural water programme while the second is considering the long-term future resourcing of the rural water sector more generally. The issue of wastewater infrastructure in villages not serviced by Irish Water is a matter which the working group will consider as part of its work. The Department expects a further 210 5 November 2020 report from the group in 2021.

I again acknowledge the Senators for raising this important matter. It is vitally important that we continue to keep it on the agenda. They can be absolutely assured of the Government’s commitment to delivering water and wastewater infrastructure for rural Ireland.

05/11/2020D00200Senator Róisín Garvey: I thank the Minister of State. That is great. I look forward to getting more detail about those measures. It is interesting that funding is to be provided for wells and septic tanks. We all know that septic tanks can be handled really well or really badly. Peo- ple may need a bit more education and assistance on how to operate them properly. Everybody wants to do it right. Nobody does not want to. I have been looking up replies and looking for specific details so I can help to get the local authorities and Irish Water on board. Community groups are waiting with shovel-ready projects and are looking for funding. I thank the Minister of State for the information.

05/11/2020D00300Senator Malcolm Byrne: I thank the Minister of State. I know he is personally very committed to this issue. This needs to be aligned with the Government’s remote working strategy because it has the potential to solve many of the challenges we face. I ask that, as soon as these reports are published, they be made available. A fuller debate in the House might be facilitated at that stage.

05/11/2020D00400Deputy Malcolm Noonan: That is a very constructive proposal. We are certainly more than happy to have a wider debate on this issue. It would be very useful. What I have outlined this morning are the overarching objectives of Irish Water and the Government as regards front-loading funding. It might be useful to go into more detail about specific programmes and plans for smaller towns and villages, and as Senator Garvey said, particularly in relation to rural group water schemes and the management and treatment of septic tanks. I am more than happy to return to the Seanad for a broader debate, because I know it is of significant interest to this House, and particularly to rural Senators.

05/11/2020E00200Flood Relief Schemes

05/11/2020E00300Senator Tim Lombard: I welcome the Minister of State to the House; it is great to have him here. This issue of how we are going to cope with the devastation of the flooding is very important for west Cork and its residents and for Cork County Council. On 19 and 20 August 2020, there was a very severe storm with exceptional winds and rain, and within seven days, on 25 August, there was another period of 12 hours of torrential rain, which caused exceptional damage, particularly to the roads of west Cork. We have all seen the flooding in places like Rosscarbery, Bantry, Skibbereen and Bandon, where there were frightening scenes that really affected businesses and households throughout the entire province itself.

The issues pertain to the towns such as Bandon, Bantry, Skibbereen, Dunmanway, Ross- carbery, Clonakilty, Leap and Ballydehob, which all suffered serious damage. However the secondary roads were destroyed, and that has been the core issue. The road network in county Cork is an amazing 12,000 km in length; it is the longest road network in Ireland. The amount of damage done to that network, and mainly to secondary roads, is estimated at €4.6 million. Cork County Council is going through a budget process at the moment, which is very hard on the local authority. It is using reserves to keep the council afloat, and it has seen major budget cuts in areas such as road maintenance, village renewal, beach cleaning and toilet cleaning. 211 Seanad Éireann This deficit in the budget of almost €4.6 million is having a major impact on how it can provide services going forward.

I seek clarity from the Minister of State on what can be done in respect of the damage done to the majority of the secondary roads in west Cork. The issue is that only €1 million has been spent to date, as another €3.4 million is to be spent as soon as the council receives the funding to fix the road network itself. Without that, the secondary roads in west Cork in particular will be in a very poor state. I refer here to places such as Bantry, Schull and Skibbereen. These are very important parishes and parts of the county because an infrastructure is required for the tourism on which we all depend and which is not there at the moment. If we do not have the infrastructure, we will not have the throughput of tourists on which this part of the world really depends.

Therefore, I seek clarity and a pathway to ensure that Cork gets this funding because with it, the network can be rebuilt, that is, the roads that are badly required in west Cork and building can take place going forward, once the Covid-19 crisis is over.

05/11/2020E00400Deputy Malcolm Noonan: I thank the Senator for raising this issue. It concerns a part of the country that I am familiar with, having holidayed there again this year. My family and I love that part of Ireland and once the restrictions were lifted, we were lucky enough to get to that beautiful part of county Cork. I want to offer our sympathies to all of the families and businesses that were affected by the flooding in county Cork. It is something that I experienced in Kilkenny, when it used to flood before the flood scheme was implemented there. Certainly, I know from standing in homes and business when the floodwater is there, that it is a really devastating, disheartening, difficult and challenging time for people when there is persistent flooding, as seems to be happening in this case.

My Department undertakes the lead Department role, as set out in the strategic emergency management, SEM, framework of 2017, in relation to co-ordination of national level response to flooding emergencies, where warranted. This includes preparation of review reports into the response to flooding emergencies where national level co-ordination is activated, including the Review Report on Severe Weather Events 2017-2018, which is available to access on my Department’s website. It is available to access on the website of my Department. The report was considered by the Government task force for emergency management and published by my Department in December 2019. The Department has implemented the recommendations relating to the local government sector. Inter-agency recommendations are progressed via the Government task force.

It should be noted that local authorities are designated as lead agencies for co-ordinating the local response to flooding emergencies, as per the Government decision in 2006 relating to the framework for emergency management. My Department seeks to support local authorities by requesting additional funding for exceptional costs incurred in the immediate response to severe weather events such as those experienced in County Cork in recent months. Such eligible costs relate to the response, clean-up and necessary immediate works associated with the event only, including the hire of plant and contractors necessary for immediate works, the purchase of materials required for response and clean-up and any staff overtime payments relating to an immediate clean-up. Capital costs associated with infrastructural damage, flood defence works or cost planned works are not eligible.

It should be noted that the OPW has responsibility for leading and co-ordinating the imple- 212 5 November 2020 mentation of a national flood risk policy approved in 2004. This policy involves the development of a planned programme of prioritised feasible works, with a greater emphasis on non- structural measures. We cannot discount the fact that the impact of climate change is now manifesting in these extreme weather events, such as extreme flooding, and rainfall patterns. The overarching objective of the Government is to try to tackle that and it should be recognised. The OPW is delivering a multi-annual programme of capital investment in flood relief measures, including major and minor works schemes now planned for future measures in areas of significant flood risk. I take on board the specific point raised by the Senator regarding the immediate challenge around the road infrastructure and secondary roads in the region. I will take the case back to the Department.

05/11/2020F00200Senator Tim Lombard: I do not mean any disrespect, but I am very disappointed with the response of the Minister of State. The damage to the secondary road network is absolutely amazing. Many news outlets have published photographs of the damage. I have walked around various parts of the area and met many of the residents. Roads have literally been washed away. Work and repairs have been carried out. I am fearful that if a programme is not put in place to ensure we can rebuild these secondary roads, west Cork will not have the infrastructure to cater for locals or tourists or agriculture or any other activity in the area. We need a fund to be put in place to ensure these roads in west Cork can be replaced. There are nearly 12,000 km of roads in County Cork. There is no way the local authority budget can cope with nearly €5 million of damage being caused in ten days. What we need is a fund, possibly over two or three years, to ensure the road network can be improved. As people in the area saw, these events are frightening. On the evening in question, there was approximately 4 inches of rainfall in Rosscarbery in a few hours. Roads were just taken away by the rain. Without the Government stepping in, we will not be in a position to ensure the road network can be replaced.

05/11/2020F00300Deputy Malcolm Noonan: I take on board the concerns of the Deputy and will take the points he raised back to the Department and my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Peter Burke, who has responsibility for local government. It is important that the Government is securing a package for local government that specifically relates to Covid and the non-rates element. We are attempting to ensure that local government is secure and viable into the future. These are specific items relating to the roads programme and an additional emergency fund because of the persistent occurrence of these severe flooding events. I am more than happy to take the Senator’s concerns back within the Department and to relay the points he has raised. These events will occur in the future. In that context, it is important that the Government is able to respond to the needs of communities and local authorities when road infrastructure, particularly that in rural areas, is severely damaged as a result of such events.

11 o’clock

05/11/2020G00100Urban Development

05/11/2020G00200Senator John Cummins: I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Burke, to the House and I wish him the very best in his role. On 9 July, I spoke on the Order of Business on the eve of a decision being made by Waterford City and County Council regarding planning permission for a transformative 125,000 sq. m mixed-use development on the north quays in Waterford city. The Minister of State is well aware of this project because I have spoken to him about it and explained it on several occasions. It is, however, worthwhile outlining the significance of this 213 Seanad Éireann development for Waterford and the south-east region.

I firmly believe this project will act as a catalyst for a decade of accelerated growth, in line with the projections outlined in Project Ireland 2040. That is why I have promoted this project and worked hard to ensure its delivery since I was Mayor of Waterford in 2016, when the site was first designated as a strategic development zone, SDZ. Some people dispute that a rising tide lifts all boats, but I could not disagree more in this instance. This is not just about this particular development, but about the wider follow-on development in housing and many other areas, which is already at an advanced stage of discussion. The project aims to deliver significant retail, hotel and conference facilities, prime city centre offices and 300 apartments and it will be a game changer for Waterford and the entire region. The previous Fine Gael Govern- ment recognised the potential of the project, including its potential to create significant number of jobs in the area, and that is why this project was prioritised in Project Ireland 2040. It was listed in the national development plan and funding of €20 million has been allocated to it by the National Transport Authority, NTA, and urban regeneration and development fund, URDF.

Despite these developments, significant uncertainty has remained about this project. The uncertainty exists because Waterford City and County Council requires funding of €110 million over four years to facilitate the construction of enabling infrastructure for this prime brownfield site. This involves a public transportation bridge over the River Suir to link the north quays SDZ with the city centre, the relocation of Plunkett Station to the centre of the site to create a modern public transportation interchange and the upgrading of road infrastructure in and around the site. These works are of critical importance for this exciting project.

Such investment will unlock €400 million in private sector investment and create more than 2,900 jobs in an area with a stubbornly high unemployment rate. I believe this project is the litmus test for the national planning framework and the commitments contained in the programme for Government for balanced regional development. Significant Government investment in Waterford and the south-east region is overdue. I stress that time is of the essence for this project. A decision is urgently needed to enable Waterford City and County Council to progress the tender for the bridge, roads and transportation hub and to enable the finalisation of contracts with the developer.

Many have doubted the Government’s commitment to this project in recent years. I am proud to say I am not one of them. However, the time has passed for talking and uttering positive reassuring words about this project. It is now time for tangible action and that requires that a memorandum go to the Cabinet seeking approval for the funding I outlined. I hope the Minister of State will have a positive update for me. I would also like him to give me an indication of when further funding is due to be announced under the URDF. Councils across the country are eagerly awaiting that news, including my local authority in Waterford which has a significant project proposal for the wider Viking triangle and cultural quarter areas. I am sure that comprehensive proposal has scored well in the Department. I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House and I look forward to his response.

05/11/2020H00100Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Peter Burke): I thank the Senator for raising this matter and for the opportunity to discuss the North Quays project in Waterford, and particularly Waterford City and County Council’s bid for the North Quays under the urban regeneration project. As the Senator outlined in detail, this is a significant project for the region. The urban regeneration and development fund, URDF, funding is designed to unlock the potential of our five cities and large towns. 214 5 November 2020 This project is key to doing that for Waterford and the region.

The Senator correctly pointed to the cumulative work carried out over the past six years by the previous Government. Indeed, the former Minister of State, Paudie Coffey, designated the area as a strategic development zone in an order made by the Government under SI 30 of 2016. That showed the commitment the then Government had to realising its potential under the URDF. Indeed, it made it a core central plank of the national planning framework in terms of our objective to have compact development. I understand the Senator was the mayor at the time an event was held in Waterford to try to progress this project. Since my appointment to the Department, the Senator has been quick to contact me about it and put forward the genuine case for it.

It is important that the Government backs this project. As regards the history, €6 million of URDF funding was allocated in November 2018 and a further €30 million of URDF funding was allocated in June 2019 to assist this project through the stages. I know from talking to the Senator and the former Minister of State, Paudie Coffey, how important this is for the region and the value that the city, the business community and the residents put on it. One must remember that this site has been derelict for decades and it has been a hindrance to unlocking the potential in the city. I believe this project will achieve this. It is important for our five cities and large towns, and, indeed, villages that they get regeneration funding to assist them.

On 26 November 2018, the then Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government announced URDF funding of €100 million for a total of 88 projects across the country. I referred to the two allocations that were made from the URDF for the North Quays project. In mention- ing this project, I am mindful of places such as the Docklands in Dublin, which had a special designation and, in the context of an all-Ireland approach, what the Belfast quarters did for regeneration in that area of Northern Ireland. This can be key for Waterford city. I appreciate the Senator’s concern to try to progress this project. He has my office inundated with queries about it. I also note that a media notice has been circulated for next Tuesday afternoon regarding a visit to Waterford. I hope that proves successful for the Senator and his hard work in the area.

05/11/2020H00200Senator John Cummins: I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response, for recognising the importance of this project to Waterford and the south east and for acknowledg- ing the work of our former colleague, Paudie Coffey, designating the site as a strategic development zone. The work of many people over the past number of years has brought this project to where it is now. I wish to record my thanks to each and every one of them for not giving in or saying that the project was going to fail, as many people have suggested. I again stress the importance and urgency of funding to Waterford City and County Council for the enabling infrastructure for the site. We have heard positive, reassuring words, and the €30 million the Minister of State mentioned was ring-fenced by the NTA for the project, rather than the URDF. However, there is a commitment in the Department to make this happen for Waterford and the south east. I urge the Minister of State to convey to the Department the urgency of finalising the funding arrangements for the project.

05/11/2020H00300Deputy Peter Burke: I appreciate the urgency attached to it, which I mentioned. Urban regeneration reaches into other Departments because the core of regeneration is trying to get our five cities and large towns to unlock their potential. That is a key part of the national planning framework. I am working on this issue in the Department to ensure it is realised and delivered in communities.

215 Seanad Éireann The work of Senator Cummins when he was Mayor of Waterford, with the former Minister of State, Paudie Coffey, to designate this area of the city as a special development zone was key to unlocking its potential. This would not be possible were it not for the initiative at that time. It is great to see that we have a very firm commitment from the local authority. Its chief execu- tive, Michael Walsh, is doing great work as well. I have been in contact with him in my role as Minister of State with responsibility for local government. He played a key role in the County and City Management Association, CCMA, in recent months.

I look forward to the project coming to fruition. I thank Senator Cummins for his excellent work and representation on the matter. It is very important that the Government progress such projects because they are so important. I cannot underline that enough. If we want to allow cities to unlock and reach their potential, the URDF will be central in doing that. I again thank the Senator for raising this matter in the Commencement debate.

05/11/2020J00200European Health Insurance Card

05/11/2020J00300Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: I thank the Minister for Foreign Affairs for addressing this Commencement matter on the European health insurance card, EHIC. To be fair to him, he is always keen to come in to address Commencement debates on this issue, so I am appreciative of that.

I also acknowledge that there has been a lot of engagement on this issue in recent weeks. I noted the Minister’s remarks on it at the recent meeting of the Joint Committee on the Imple- mentation of the Good Friday Agreement. I suppose that, 57 days out from Brexit, we have had a series of commitments and I think what people expect to see now is an outline of the mechanical, practical opportunities to retain the EU rights and entitlements that they have been promised they will be able to retain.

As the Minister is well aware because he will have heard it extensively in his engagements in the North, the EHIC is probably something that cuts across all the demographics and communities in the North. It is something that everyone going on holidays has availed of regularly. It is a very symbolic wee thing. It is a bit like the passport, in that it is a symbolic representation of being a European citizen and being entitled to access EU rights.

Like many people, I was very heartened and encouraged to hear remarks from the Govern- ment in April last year indicating that it would be prepared to cover the cost of retaining the EHIC for all citizens in the North. That is a very important step and I support it. I want to afford the Government an opportunity to speak through the Seanad to people in the North to give them another opportunity and platform to hear the practical steps being taken above and beyond that very important and sincere promise.

05/11/2020J00400Minister for Foreign Affairs (Deputy Simon Coveney): I thank Senator Ó Donnghaile for giving me the opportunity to put the commitment on the record here. At this stage, we are 50 something days away from the end of the transition period so things need to start coming together in many areas, not just this area. There is an awful lot of work going on in regard to that so I will just outline how it will work.

As Senator Ó Donnghaile noted, in April 2019 the Government sought to make arrangements so that the people of Northern Ireland would continue to have access to EHIC rights in 216 5 November 2020 the event of a no-deal Brexit. At that time, we were preparing for a situation where there might not be a withdrawal agreement. Now, of course, we are dealing with a different context. The withdrawal agreement, of which the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland is an integral part, is now in place between the EU and the UK and has the protection of international law.

The Government recognises the importance placed by residents of Northern Ireland on maintaining the EHIC equivalent rights. This matter is being addressed in discussions between the EU and the UK on the future relationship, which we continue to monitor.

We are also aware that in line with obligations under the withdrawal agreement, the UK Government will provide eligible EU nationals and their family members who are resident in the UK before the end of the transition period and, therefore, covered under the withdrawal agreement, with a UK-issued EHIC. Further clarity from the UK on this will be required in order to assess if there are any implications for Northern Ireland, including in relation to eligibility. In the event that these issues are not adequately resolved, preparations are under way for a scheme to ensure continued access to EHIC equivalent arrangements for eligible residents in Northern Ireland. The scheme under development would allow residents in Northern Ireland to seek reimbursement for the cost of necessary healthcare while on a temporary stay in another EU or EEA member state or in Switzerland, should it be required, from 1 January 2021.

The Department of Health is working to progress arrangements that are compatible with domestic and EU law and to ensure that the HSE has the necessary operational arrangements in place to administer this in the relevant scenario. Detail on this can be found in the Brexit readiness action plan, published on 9 September, and Part 3 of the Withdrawal of the United Kingdom from the European Union (Consequential Provisions) Bill 2020, published on the Oireachtas website on 29 October, which will be discussed with Members in the coming weeks. We will be in this House to discuss those issues probably towards the end of this month. I was planning to be here on 23 November.

More broadly, the EU rights of Irish and, therefore, EU citizens from Northern Ireland are specifically addressed in the protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland. The protocol confirms that Irish citizens in Northern Ireland will continue to enjoy, exercise and have access to rights, opportunities and benefits that come with EU membership. It is important to underline that under any scenario Irish citizens, no matter where they live, will continue to have EU citizenship. They will continue to enjoy the right to live and work throughout the EU and the right not to be discriminated against on the grounds of nationality.

While it remains our hope that access for Irish citizens in the North to certain EU programmes and benefits can be adequately addressed in the context of the future relationship, we are proactively working to ensure that the people or Northern Ireland can continue to enjoy access to EU rights, opportunities and benefits into the future, as they do today, including the benefits linked to holding a European health insurance card.

05/11/2020K00200Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: I thank the Minister for his response, which was fairly comprehensive in one sense. I am not trying to catch anybody out or trip anybody up because I believe the Minister is committed to this. As he correctly acknowledged, we are 57 days out from the end of the transition period. People need to start hearing detail and have this issue explained to them so they understand it clearly. I appreciate also that there are current restrictions on travel but hopefully we will get through to the other end of that.

217 Seanad Éireann People need to hear and understand how this is measure will work. If it is the case that people will have to go through a process and then apply for reimbursement, inherently that will not be the same as retaining the current EHIC system. Without getting into the politics of the issue, if that is to be the reality, people need to understand. Will it still be a matter of going to a local post office to apply for this scheme? Will that option be available to them? How will reimbursement work and how long will it take? Will it be a fairly simple model? While I appreciate the Minister has flagged up the legislation that will come to the House, there is a very short window here.

I made the point to Government representatives this week that while this whole debate has understandably moved very firmly into the economic and trade realm recently, there has been a loss of focus on the very important issue of the retention of citizens’ rights, certainly in the public domain. If the Minister is in a position to do so it might be something we could revisit. I cannot stress enough the importance of this scheme and the other schemes along with the issues he acknowledged in his contribution. We need to communicate to the communities in the North that are so affected by this. Along with the anxiety of Covid they are really uncertain. The promises are important and welcome. I take them in good faith. We now need to hear the mechanics of how that will work.

05/11/2020L00200Deputy Simon Coveney: We are putting in place a contingency plan in case the UK does not agree a resolution to this issue in a future relationship agreement with the EU. The hope and expectation is that we will be able to get a future relationship agreement that will involve the British Government signing off and agreeing on its citizens being able to access the equivalent of an EHIC-type scheme providing for reimbursement for medical costs if and when they are travelling around the EU.

A future relationship agreement could happen; we will have to wait and see how that de- velops in the next couple of weeks or even less than that. If that does not come off and there is no future relationship agreement, we have legislation coming forward similar to the Brexit omnibus Bill we introduced previously, which put contingency arrangements in place for a no- deal Brexit. It is now putting contingency arrangements in place for a no-future-relationship- deal Brexit. We will have an opportunity to tease through the details of that legislation when it comes through the House.

One of those elements is in this space. The Department of Health and the HSE are putting in place a scheme to ensure continued access to EHIC-equivalent arrangements for Northern Ireland citizens. Of course, that needs to be compatible with domestic and EU legislation. As I have said in the past, if necessary the Irish Government will pay for this showing a commitment to people in Northern Ireland to try to ensure that as they move through or go on their holidays in the European Union and if they run into difficulty and need to access health services and so on, there will be a reimbursement equivalent to EHIC which would obviously be as streamlined as we can make it for citizens to reimburse their healthcare costs through the HSE.

We will put in place a system that is as simple to administer and as streamlined as we can make it. We need to do it within our own legislative parameters and it also needs to be consistent with EU legislation. Of course, we do not control legislation in Northern Ireland. Howev- er, I think the Senator will recognise there is a serious commitment to this by the Government. He will see that in the legislation. The Department and the HSE have been working on this for some time to follow through on the commitment I made last year to people in Northern Ireland that not only will we pay for this, but we will also put a system in place to allow it to work if 218 5 November 2020 necessary.

The hope is that this will be resolved through negotiation on a future relationship in order that the British Government can announce something that is constructive and positive to deal with the concerns the Senator has rightly outlined.

05/11/2020L00300Travel Trade Sector

05/11/2020L00400Senator Erin McGreehan: I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. I seek an update on the unique and dire situation of travel agencies. The companies are operating at a loss of about 130% in refunding all revenue for a year and a half, pretty much without Govern- ment assistance. Moreover, with 3,500 staff throughout the country, the sector is by no means insignificant. The Irish Travel Agents Association has continuously voiced its concerns about the impact of the Covid-19 crisis on travel agencies and has called for the Government to provide assistance to repair some of the damage done to the Irish travel industry.

I have spoken to representatives of my local travel agencies. Anyone from north County Louth will be familiar with Centre Travel, KT Travel, McGuill Travel and O’Callaghan Travel. These businesses combined have been in operation for 180 years, employ 30 staff and have an annual turnover of more than €16 million, so they are by no means small fry. These are small enterprises that give excellent personalised customer service. They were thriving viable businesses but they now see no light. They still give an excellent service with negative return. To give an example, one of these travel agents has had only five bookings since September. This week, it will issue 75 cheques in refunds to its customers. As we know, there are costs associated with refunds and staff are needed to do this work. Other outgoings include cumulative bank charges, office charges, rent and heat. One travel agent has estimated that it takes up to nine hours for each refund to be organised with all the administrative hurdles, telephone calls, emails, etc. All money is going out. Travel agents are not normal retail outlets.

Let us remember that travel agents only make money when customers board a flight and the plane takes off. As we know, some flights are taking off but the Government advice is that people should not travel so people are not travelling. In such instances, under EU law, travel agents are obliged to refund the cost of flights whereas airlines are not obliged to do so. Five travel agencies have gone into liquidation. Under EU law, customers are refunded. Must the Government or the Commission for Aviation Regulation now provide refunds?

Travel agents are seeking clarity on whether they are eligible for the Covid restrictions support scheme. Is the scheme based on turnover or profits?

The refund credit note is of no practical assistance to travel agencies as it only protects customers if a travel agent goes into liquidation. A refund credit note does not help travel agents to keep their business running and only protects customers. It is important that customers are protected but these businesses still need a refund.

I stress that the travel agents that I have spoken to respect and understand the restrictions but they need help to ensure their businesses still exist when the restrictions are lifted.

05/11/2020M00200Minister of State at the Department of Business, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Damien English): I thank Senator McGreehan for raising this very important issue. She raised

219 Seanad Éireann it as a national issue but recognised the importance of the sector to the north east and listed travel agents in County Louth.

I am very familiar with the important service that travel agents provide nationally to the industry. They support the corporate sector and service the domestic market and people here who travel abroad. I recognise that travel agents put a lot of work in at the start of the pandemic and worked with us. I have certainly seen that in the case of Martin Skelly in Navan Travel and Ei- mer Hannon in Hannon Travel. Travel agents have worked with the State to bring people who were stuck abroad home. They have also engaged with customers in the past couple of months and tried to provide that service. At the start of Covid, the sector stepped up and helped to get people home who were in trouble and solved a lot of issues. The travel sector is very relevant in local communities.

I recognise that many businesses and thousands of people working in the travel agent industry have been severely impacted by the collapse in national and international travel and tourism as a result of Covid-19 restrictions. The needs of these businesses and their employees have formed part of our consideration of the range of grants and funding assistance that we have introduced in budget 2021 and in the July stimulus plan. We are developing our recovery plan, which will be launched in November or December.

I agree with the Senator that the travel agent sector recognises the importance of restrictions. Travel agents have always stressed at our meetings that they recognise the importance of protecting public health. The issue they have is the survival of travel agencies.

I met representatives of the Irish Travel Agents Association in mid-September, as did many other Departments. I have received further representations from the association since the pub- lication of budget 2021. I have heard their case, which they have also made to many other Members of both Houses. The Senator is correct in saying they are unique. Compared with other retailers, they are a very different business model.

The Irish travel sector is a strong, dynamic industry which employs over 3,500 people across Ireland. Last year, the Commission for Aviation Regulation reported a €1.2 billion turnover for Irish travel agents in 2018, as part of its annual report for that year. Travel agents are engaged in all aspects of overseas travel, including leisure, corporate and visits to family abroad. We are all very familiar with this service. From a departmental corporate travel point of view they are very important.

There is interdependency between outgoing and incoming air and sea travel volumes. The travel industry is a nationwide SME sector, largely comprised of family-run businesses employ- ing over 3,500 people in towns and cities across the country, including in rural Ireland and the north east as mentioned by Senator McGreehan. The ITAA has informed the Government that the majority of Irish travel agents are at risk of long-term unemployment unless immediate action is taken, which backs up the Senator’s statement that it is important that this sector benefits from supports that are provided.

The Irish travel industry has remained active since March to service customers with cancel- lations, refunds and rebooking holidays. This work is ongoing. These companies could not close even though they were effectively blocked from trading and they have had to continue to carry a proportion of salary and overhead costs. We recognise that. The companies make an argument which is unique in terms of the arguments being made by other businesses. Travel

220 5 November 2020 agents provide an essential service to customers. The ITAA has told us that if they close this responsibility will fall to the Commission for Aviation Regulation in respect of which there will be associated costs. It is important that we ensure the supports being made available are reach- ing the sector.

In recognition of the importance of the sector and of businesses in many other sectors, the budget provides for a significant package of tax and expenditure measures to build the resilience of the economy and to help vulnerable but viable businesses across all sectors. We are trying to help businesses to operate as best they possibly can over the next couple of months, when allowed, in order that they can thrive again in the years ahead, which this sector believes it can do. The sector believes that if it can get through the next six to eight months it will be in a strong position to recommence services, create jobs and operate in the Irish market in the years ahead.

Through the measures announced in the July stimulus package, including the employment wage subsidy scheme, the restart grant+ and the other variations of it and the low-cost loans and commercial rate waivers, we are providing supports to suit the different businesses. As many businesses have had to close under the level 5 Covid restrictions we have made changes to the pandemic unemployment payment, PUP, and the employment wage subsidy scheme, EWSS. The new payment structure for the PUP includes an increase in the top rate to €350 for those who were earning in excess of €400 per week. This change to payment rates will apply in respect of all existing and new applicants. The travel industry would have benefited from the initial wage subsidy scheme and probably took the view that the new scheme did not suit its needs. The increased rates should be of assistance to it. The EWSS is also being amended to align with the amendment to PUP, with the top payment increasing to €350 for those earning over €400. As part of budget 2021, the new Covid restrictions support scheme, CRSS, is now operational through Revenue and offers a targeted, timely and temporary sector-specific support of up to €5,000 per week to businesses forced to close or trade at significantly reduced levels due to Covid. This is based on turnover. I am aware that Members of the Houses have received representations on travel agents’ eligibility for the scheme and the full details will be confirmed as part of the Finance Bill, Second Stage of which is currently before the Dáil and will probably come before this House next week. We are providing more and cheaper loan finance through MicroFinance Ireland, the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland, SBCI, and the new €2 billion credit guarantee scheme.

The level of help now being provided to businesses across all sectors is unprecedented and ahead of that available in many other jurisdictions. We will continue to keep the mix of support for specific sectors under review to ensure businesses can reopen as international travel recovers. It is important that the travel sector can benefit from these supports as well. I look forward to the completion of the debate on the Finance Bill over the next week or two to bring clarification to this issue.

The Senator mentioned the refund credit note. People might say it did not help the sector but the purpose of it was to give confidence in the early stages to those customers who did not need a refund. I am conscious that people in difficult times financially might have no choice but to seek a refund of money they had on deposit with a travel agent but there are people who might have been in the position of not having to seek a refund and were able to leave the money with the travel agent to help support the sector. As I said the purpose of the refund credit note was to provide confidence to a customer who had been loyal to a travel agent for many years.

221 Seanad Éireann If the customer was willing to leave his or her money on deposit, the State was saying the money would be paid out at a later stage. The scheme aimed to provide confidence. It did not get enough of a hearing and maybe many customers did not hear about it or fully understand it. It was an attempt to stop the withdrawal of cash from travel agents and to stop people seeking their deposits back. That was the intention. The scheme had some impact but maybe not enough and it was certainly not enough on its own to help the sector. That is why we have announced a range of other supports. The case the Senator makes for the CRSS is an important one.

05/11/2020O00200Senator Erin McGreehan: I thank the Minister of State for the clarity on the Covid restrictions support scheme. He and I are in complete agreement. This is a unique industry that is not at all like normal retail. The doors of travel agents are open virtually at the minute and the money is constantly flowing out. I appreciate the Minister of State’s time and the clarity he has provided. I understand the refund credit note was intended to give customers assurances but it did not really help the travel agents. I look forward to giving back some positive news to some of the travel agents in Dundalk.

05/11/2020O00300Deputy Damien English: I thank the Senator again for raising this important issue. I will make sure her arguments are conveyed to the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform. We are committed to ensuring we have an appropriate mix of financial help and assistance in place for the businesses most severely impacted by Covid-19. We are continuing to see a strong take-up of the range of supports available for businesses but I ask businesses and all sectors to look at the supports again, visit our websites and use our business support helpline to get the information that is available. Businesses that could avail of these opportunities are not drawing them down yet and I appeal to them to use those supports. I encourage travel agents to ensure they are availing of the range of grants and other funding schemes that are in place. I am sure most of them are doing so but some might not realise they can still avail of some of the schemes. They should check for the most up-to-date version of every scheme.

The details of the CRSS are being debated as part of the Finance Bill, which is on Second Stage in the Dáil. Travel agents can avail of the scheme under levels 4 and 5. I understand their argument and the argument that many in these Houses are making that they be included under level 3. That is an issue on which the Tánaiste and I are engaging with the Minister for Finance, and I am sure other Ministers such as the Minister for Environment, Climate and Communica- tions, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, Deputy Catherine Martin, are working on this issue as well.

05/11/2020O00400School Accommodation

05/11/2020O00500Senator Marie Sherlock: I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House today to respond to my questions. My Commencement matter is on Clonturk Community College, a new secondary school in Dublin 11. The school has enjoyed phenomenal success since it was established a short number of years ago, where demand far exceeds supply and there has been a large expansion in the number of places offered by the school year on year. There is a real concern, however, with the accommodation at the school. It has already needed temporary accommodation for this school year and it is seeking temporary accommodation for next year. The key issue is that the school cannot continue to ask the Department for temporary accommodation. We need a clear commitment to have a permanent building for this school provided 222 5 November 2020 for the start of 2021.

The crucial matter is that it is extremely costly for the Department of Education to provide temporary accommodation and it is places stress on those involved in the school to be con- tinually worrying about school accommodation. We cannot allow a situation where the school building effectively defines, limits or constrains learning outcomes. I know the school staff are extremely committed to making the existing arrangements work but the school is under significant pressure. We need a clear commitment for a new school building sooner rather than later. I am appealing to the Minister of State to relay to the Department the need to have the school building project completed in a timely and straightforward fashion. I am extremely frustrated with the school buildings section of the Department.

I am dealing with two other schools. Pelletstown Educate Together national school is a new school in a similar situation. It has no certainty about securing a permanent school building and we are told there are delays. I am also dealing with a school in Dublin 1, Gaelscoil Choláiste Mhuire. We are told the Department is in negotiations to give away part of the school yard to an adjoining building in the city centre for use as a right of way. I wrote to the Minister and the Secretary General of the Department over two weeks ago but have received no reply. There are very distressed parents and a board of management with no clarity on what is happening in the school.

The planning of schools must be done in a far better manner. We cannot set up schools but have no clarity for those schools as to when they will get proper accommodation. I particularly ask in the context of Clonturk Community College that an immediate plan be put in place for the start of 2021 to progress the development and delivery of a new school building.

05/11/2020P00200Deputy Damien English: I thank Senator Sherlock for raising these matters. I am here on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley, who could not make this morning’s discussion. She apologises for that as there was a clash in her diary with other meetings. I am very happy on her behalf to respond on the matter raised by the Senator relating to Clonturk Community Col- lege. I am conscious she raised matters relating to two other schools but I do not have details on those because I did not know they would be raised. I will relay them to the Minister, Deputy Foley. In fairness to the Minister, although the Senator said there was a delay of two weeks in responding to the matter, we recognise the pressure on the Department and how the Minister is on the front line trying to deal with how schools cope with Covid-19. It is a priority but I have no doubt she will respond to the Senator as quickly as possible. I will certainly liaise with the Senator and we will contact the school as well.

We must recognise how busy the Department is. One of the good news stories of the Co- vid-19 pandemic is how well the education system is responding and how schools are reopening. I compliment everybody involved, including the teaching community, the support staff and parents, as well as the Department and its agencies. They have successfully managed to keep schools open over the past couple of months and will do it in future.

Clonturk Community College is a multi-denominational school under the joint patronage of City of Dublin Education and Training Board and Educate Together. It was established in September 2016 as a “start-up” second level school to meet the needs of a growing population in the area and the demand for a multi-denominational second level school. The school opened with an enrolment of 48 pupils in 2016. In September 2019, the school had an enrolment of 343 pupils. It is envisaged that Clonturk Community College will accommodate 1,000 pupils 223 Seanad Éireann when at full capacity.

In January 2019, the Department approved a devolved grant for Clonturk Community Col- lege for the purchase of a modular building that is now in place. This has provided an additional eight general classrooms, four pastoral offices, three guidance rooms, two special educational needs classes, two computer rooms, one art room, one science laboratory, one general purpose room, one principal’s office, one staff room, one staff workroom and all the necessary toilet facilities, changing rooms, circulation, lifts and staircases required. This, together with existing accommodation, provides the school with mainstream classroom capacity to cater for 750 pupils.

While awaiting the delivery of the modular building, interim temporary accommodation consisting of nine rented prefabs was installed and remain on the site. The school authorities have expressed the need to retain these to cater for the current cohort of pupils. Officials from the Department provided the necessary forms to the City of Dublin Education and Training Board in order to assess the need for the retention of these prefabs and any other deficits of specialist accommodation. This documentation was recently received by the Department and it is being assessed.

In quantifying the specific requirements for September 2021 and future years, the Depart- ment is in the final throes of concluding its nationwide demographic exercises to determine where additional school accommodation is needed at primary and post-primary level across the 314 school planning areas through a geographical information system. The GIS uses data from a range of sources, including child benefit data from the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection and the Department’s own school enrolment databases, as well as local information provided by the school community, to identify where the pressure for school places across the country will arise.

The process has been strengthened this year through three specific initiatives. These include enhanced engagement with local authorities on the information on residential development in- corporated in the analysis process and additional engagement with patron bodies and their local knowledge on school place requirements. Education and training boards, diocesan offices and national patron bodies such as Educate Together, An Foras Pátrúnachta and others can be an important source of local knowledge.

The process has been strengthen this year through three specific initiatives: enhanced engagement with local authorities in respect of the information on residential development incor- porated in the analysis process; additional engagement with patron bodies in respect of their local knowledge on school place requirements, education and training boards, diocesan offices and national patron bodies, such as Educate Together, An Foras Pátrúnachta, etc., can be an important source of local knowledge - this will add to information also provided to the Department by local authorities or individual schools; and, in order to aid the planning system, the Depart- ment will also be utilising the information gleaned from schools under the national inventory of school capacity completed by individual schools last year as part of the primary online database, POD, and post-primary online database, P-POD, return processes.

As Senator Sherlock will be aware, capital planning and budgeting is undertaken on a multi- annual basis. Under Project Ireland 2040, the education sector will receive approximately €12 billion over the period 2018 to 2027. This includes €8.8 billion for the school sector and €2.2 billion for higher education infrastructure. A significant amount of money has been provided by 224 5 November 2020 this and the previous Government for education and rightly so. The specific allocations in each area are closely monitored and may be adjusted from year to year to take account of project progress and other factors.

Since 2018, in excess of €1.2 billion has been invested in capital infrastructure under the school building programme. A further €725 million is allocated for investment in 2020. The roll-out of Project Ireland 2040 in the school sector has involved overall construction activity during 2018 and 2019 on 139 projects ranging in value from €1 million to in excess of €20 million. There were also 401 projects with a value of less than €1 million in construction during this period. The completion of these 540 projects is expected to deliver more than 40,000 permanent additional and replacement school places and to replace approximately 600 prefabs.

The Department has a large pipeline of projects for delivery under the school building programme. The main elements of this pipeline currently involve 372 large-scale projects and approximately 800 projects for delivery under the Department’s additional school accommodation scheme. While good progress continues to be made with the roll-out of projects, the enhanced funding levels envisaged under the national development plan, NDP, will be key to ensuring the successful delivery of the remaining elements of the pipeline of projects during the period of the plan, namely, up to 2027.

Again, I thank Senator Sherlock for raising this issue and for giving me the opportunity to outline the position on behalf of the Minister. I assure her that the application for capital funding for Clonturk Community College for specialist accommodation is being assessed and the school authorities will be notified of a decision as quickly as possible. The planning system and the method for providing additional accommodation for schools throughout the country has greatly improved in recent years and the Department is very responsive in terms of providing places at both primary and secondary level as quickly as possible when they are needed. We can all see the benefits of that. Sometimes schools begin in temporary accommodation but that is replaced with permanent accommodation very quickly.

05/11/2020Q00200Senator Marie Sherlock: I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive reply. In response, I should point out that Clonturk Community College has proven that it will be a 1,000-student school. There is no question over the future growth of the school or whether it will reach those enrolment figures. Based on its current numbers and the excess of demand over supply of places, it is very clear that this school will meet the 1,000 student capacity mark in a very short period. I ask the Minister of State to ask the Department to provide a date or precise timeline for the completion of the nationwide demographic exercise. The information contained in the response is very useful in terms of how that data is compiled but I would reiterate that the school’s view that there is a proven demand for a permanent school building. I take on board what the Minister of State has said about the Department being very responsive in recent years and would point out that in this particular instance, space is not an issue. There is plenty of land on which to develop a school building. I hope the Department will move sooner rather than later in terms of its commitment to deliver a permanent building on that site.

05/11/2020Q00300Deputy Damien English: I am happy to clarify that the Department’s aim is to complete the demographic exercise as soon as possible, although I do not have a precise date. It will feed into the capital spending plans for 2021 and beyond. It will also feed into the review of the NDP, in which education features very strongly. I understand that the aim is to have it ready for next year. It will be involved in that process as well. Having been in that Department for a few years, I know how important that piece of work is because is provides the evidence needed to 225 Seanad Éireann secure the budget the Department needs to invest in schools in the communities.

I have tracked the commitments made over the years, based on that demographic, and they are delivered on. It is the right way to plan and deliver schools, based on evidence and research. The Senator says the school to which she has referred needs approval for a capacity of 1,000 students. The Department has recognised that and when the school was planned in 2016 it was announced that it would eventually be a 1,000-pupil school when at full capacity. It is nowhere near that at this moment in time. It has just over 343 pupils, with accommodation for 750. I am sure the Department will ensure things are developed in time but it is recognised that it will be a 1,000-pupil school. There is no dispute about that because that is what the Department planned for when it announced the school in the first place.

05/11/2020R00200An Cathaoirleach: I thank the Minister of State for taking those Commencement matters and I thank the Senators for putting forward their questions.

Sitting suspended at 11.51 a.m. and resumed at 12 noon.

Resignation of Member

05/11/2020T00100An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice in writing from Senator Elisha McCallion of her resignation as a Member of Seanad Éireann. Consequently, a casual vacancy has arisen in the membership of Seanad Éireann.

05/11/2020T00200Ábhair Ghnó an tSeanaid - Matters on the Business of the Seanad

05/11/2020T00300Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I think this is my first time speaking in the Chamber since we were re-elected. It feels nice to be back. The programme for Government, as set out, was a great one, and one to which we all subscribed. However, as the Cathaoirleach is aware, there was one huge disappointment for the people of Kerry, insofar as the liquid natural gas project in the Shannon Estuary was effectively dumped. My colleagues in the Green Party saw to that, and while they have their point of view on the issue, I have another, as someone who has been involved in promoting the project for many years. However, we are where we are and we must be positive and move on.

The programme for Government specifies that to compensate for the loss of the expected jobs in the region, there will be a special focus and an all-departmental effort to secure employment in the north Kerry and west Limerick areas bordering the Shannon Estuary. That effort was to include environmentally friendly job creation and involve the Departments of Transport and the Environment, Climate and Communications. Foynes Harbour, of which I was a director for 16 years, is one of the biggest handlers of bulk cargo in Europe and there is great scope for it to be developed. Will the Government firm up on the commitments made in the programme for Government? Which Department will take the lead on the proposed redevelopment? Will the Leader invite the appropriate lead Minister to the Chamber as soon as possible for a debate on the matter? It is very important. Emigration and unemployment have killed the region in 226 5 November 2020 which I live. It deserves a break. Those living in the area were wounded by the removal of the liquified national gas project. I do not believe that project is dead in the water. I still think there is a future for importing gas even though it is a fossil fuel. I do not think we will be able to hit our targets without some sort of fossil fuel being involved in the medium term at any rate. I ask the Leader to revert to me on the issue at a suitable time.

05/11/2020U00200An Cathaoirleach: I point out to Members that I did not call on the Leader at the beginning of proceedings - she is more than welcome to contribute - because this is not the Order of Busi- ness. This is Matters on the Business of the Seanad and, as such, there are no questions regarding the day’s Order of Business. This is a new innovation to allow for questions to the Leader. She has agreed to this new process and has been very much part of making sure that Senators have an opportunity to raise issues on days when the Order of Business is not votable. There will not be a vote at the end of this item. Only one hour has been allocated, so I ask Senators to stick to their time. The Leader was more than welcome to take up her normal spot, but she indicated that she would not do so.

05/11/2020U00300Senator Ned O’Sullivan: I am glad the Cathaoirleach clarified that. I thought I had been promoted.

05/11/2020U00400An Cathaoirleach: The Senator is always promoted in my eyes.

05/11/2020U00500Senator Micheál Carrigy: I raise the issue of the Camlin Quarter urban regeneration application by Longford County Council. It is a project to co-ordinate the development of the northern area of Longford town, utilising key assets and connecting the functional area in a strategic way that maximises ongoing and future investment. The plan incorporates an area of more than 55 acres, encompassing the 18 acre Sean Connolly Barracks site, with a new focus on the River Camlin.

Longford has a high ratio of jobs to resident population, which indicates a need to provide suitable and attractive residential development in proximity to those jobs, as well as to develop more sustainable travel patterns and ensure the town derives economic benefit from the jobs it supports. If that is done, the town will be able to provide an enhanced range of services and facilities to the surrounding rural community and associated economises. Substantial investment from Fáilte Ireland under Government initiatives and directly by the local authority have worked towards achieving these aims. The project will represent a consolidation of that investment. The project involves an area in the northern portion of the town covered by the Camlin quarter masterplan. It will be a major investment in the areas of Connolly Barracks, Little Water Street, the mall complex, Abbeycarton and the Providers innovation hub.

The project was a significant priority of mine while I was a member of Longford County Council. Since being elected to Seanad Éireann, I have worked to ensure the continued support of the Government for the project. In December 2018, the then Taoiseach, now Tánaiste, Dep- uty Varadkar, visited the area and met members of Longford County Council and local business people who described in detail how the lower part of Longford town had been ravaged in recent years by the closure of a substantial number of businesses. The project is designed to improve the sustainable mobility and physical connection between the major functional areas in the northern section of the town core. It aims to enhance environmental quality and liveability and to provide an environment that attracts and encourages inward investment and increased foot- fall in this part of Longford town. The proposed works will require detailed design, environmental assessment, planning and, potentially, compulsory purchase orders in some instances. 227 Seanad Éireann If funding is received for the project, it is hoped that the works will be completed by 2027 at an estimated cost of €13 million. I ask the Leader to raise this issue as a priority with the Minister so that this much-needed project for our county town is prioritised when allocations are made.

05/11/2020V00200Senator Sharon Keogan: Considerable attention has been given recently by the Oireach- tas and the media to the ways in which the State has failed the women of Ireland. From that litany of failures, two examples include the suffering of women as a result of inadequacies in the provision of healthcare, such as the continuing CervicalCheck controversy, and the failure of this State to prevent the abuse of women in mother and baby homes.

On the issue of maternity care, I would like to know from the Minister of Health what concrete progress has been made under the national maternity strategy for the period from 2016 to 2026 to ensure that Ireland has the best and safest maternity services and best supports for women and babies in the world. In particular, I would like the Minister to tell the House whether all women in need of specialised maternity care are currently receiving that necessary care.

I will highlight another matter regarding maternity care which was raised in the other House. This concerns the effective seizure management drug, sodium valproate, also known as Epilim. It is suitable for use by many people with epilepsy but if it is taken by pregnant women, the result can be babies having significant developmental issues, namely, a 10% chance of a physical deformity or a 40% chance of a neurological disorder. Some 1,600 women in Ireland between the ages of 16 and 45 years are taking this drug for epilepsy. Alarmingly, awareness of this real risk is still too low. Studies show that nearly 33% of these women are unaware that when taken in pregnancy the drug can cause learning and developmental problems, with 17% unaware that the drug can result in serious birth defects. The HSE estimates that 1,250 children were impacted by this drug in this way between 1975 and 2015. That is 1,250 children too many. To protect women, the drug must now only be issued by a specialist and its use must be accompanied by a pregnancy prevention programme and the signing of an annual risk acknowledgement form to drive ongoing awareness. A study by Epilepsy Ireland showed that not even 30% of women taking this drug had heard of this mandatory pregnancy prevention programme and only 22% had been asked by their healthcare professional to sign the annual risk acknowledgement form to maintain awareness.

It is important, therefore, that we ask the Minister what is being done to address this urgent and serious risk being posed to these women and babies. Regrettably, the systemic failures of this State in addressing issues facing women continues to this day. As long as those failures continue, it is important for us women to continue to talk about them inside and outside this House. I will continue to do so tirelessly.

05/11/2020V00300Senator Annie Hoey: I want to take a moment today to reflect on some of the global issues pertaining to human rights. Only two weeks ago, the situation in Nigeria in respect of corruption and other problems was raised in this House. I express my solidarity with the Nigerian community here and also to the people of Nigeria as they continue their campaign against corruption and for peaceful democracy.

I also want to take some time to think about those living in Poland. I refer to the rolling back of protections regarding access to abortion. It is now well-nigh impossible to access an abortion in Poland. The streets in cities there have been teeming in recent days with protesters and there has been global solidarity. I certainly stand in solidarity with those protesting in Poland for the basic and fundamental right to bodily autonomy and to have access to much-needed 228 5 November 2020 healthcare and compassion. Polls in Poland seem to show that people power works. I hope that is the case and I express my solidarity.

I also want to reflect on the LGBT-free zones in Poland. As a member of the LGBT community, it is really upsetting and hurtful to see this level of hatred spreading in other countries. It is very upsetting to see that people who are just living their lives and their truths are being exploited and condemned in this way. There has been much talk in Ireland and across Europe about condemning the LGBT-free zones, but I wish to put this egregious infringement of human rights on the record of the House. I encourage every Member to stand against such things.

With regard to the US, once lauded as the bastion of democracy, I doubt that anybody could not comment on the extraordinary voter suppression and some of the alarming tactics that have been used across the US. We see the potential fallout from that with protests outside count centres. However, it would be remiss of me to cast my eyes across the world and not turn my gaze here. Last week, we had an impassioned discussion about rights and the victims of institutional abuse in Ireland. Our past lingers clearly in the shadows. Ireland has led on gender recognition rights. It introduced the Gender Recognition Act in 2015 with little problem, and people have lived their lives perfectly normally. We achieved both marriage equality and abortion rights by popular vote.

However, we cannot be complacent. There are bad actors in every community. There are some outside the House who are intent on undoing some areas of democracy. There could even be some in the Houses of the Oireachtas. It is no coincidence that the out Members of our Parliament, myself included, receive untold abuse online both from bad actors and from people who wish to silence and suppress us, either because we are living our truth out loud or because, hopefully, we are inspiring other people to live their truth. I encourage other Members of the House to be aware of the hard-won democracy we have and to stand against that in our communities and not allow these bad actors to infiltrate and take over what has been a great deal of hard work in Ireland to achieve the level of democracy and rights we have.

05/11/2020W00200Senator Paul Gavan: I commend the last speaker and agree with everything she said. It is important that we have a debate on foreign affairs. Many things are happening in Europe, not just in Poland but also in Hungary and Bulgaria and, regrettably, with sister parties of Fine Gael in the latter two. I also agree with what the Senator said about the United States. Let us hope that there is a change of President at the end of today or, please God, in the next couple of days. At the same time, we must acknowledge that it was not a good day for the Democratic Party in America and perhaps reflect on the limits of liberalism as a political philosophy. Unless politicians tackle wealth inequality, which is not a liberal but a socialist philosophy, we see what can happen and where politics can slide, unfortunately.

I wish to raise the issue of Debenhams, and I hope I will not be the only Member raising it today. There was a very constructive cross-party meeting yesterday with shop stewards which was organised by Deputy Mick Barry. The workers in Debenhams are on their 210th day of strike action during a pandemic. They are standing in the wind and the freezing conditions facing us this week. They have been left out there without the intervention that is desperately required from the Government. I must be honest that I got boiling mad yesterday at a meeting of the enterprise and employment committee, of which I am a member. We heard about the Duffy Cahill report which is now four and a half years old. It has been sitting gathering dust for four and a half years. It would have prevented what has happened to the Debenhams workers.

229 Seanad Éireann There has been all sorts of emergency legislation, much of it necessary. Why have we not had emergency legislation for working people? Why have we not had emergency legislation to deal with strategic insolvencies? That is what we are talking about here. We should not have to remember what happened to the Clerys workers and realise that it is four and a half years later. This is political because both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have failed in this respect. They had the opportunity in the last Government to do something about it and they chose not to. We cannot leave these workers in the lurch. KPMG has said it is prepared to walk away at the end of December. The assets that the workers are trying to defend with a 24-hour picket, day after day, are rapidly reducing in value.

There must be an effective Government intervention. It has to happen, and I call on all Members of the Seanad to play their role. In fact, I believe we should have a special debate on the Debenhams workers. Every Member, regardless of political party, should call on the Tao- iseach and the Tánaiste to intervene directly with the company. It is clear that the back channels have not worked. We cannot allow these workers to be left in the lurch again, standing in the cold until Christmas. That is what they are facing at the moment. Then they will head into a second calendar year. Surely to God, all of us, as a political body, are better than that. Let us ensure justice for the Debenhams workers.

05/11/2020X00200Senator Fiona O’Loughlin: Today is a new day, and this morning we received better news on the airwaves when we woke up regarding what is happening in America. Let us hope that by the end of today or tomorrow we will see the return of integrity, decency and honesty to the White House.

I too support of the Debenhams workers. I participated in the online Zoom call with shop stewards and other Oireachtas Members yesterday. The fact that Debenhams itself has walked away from this entire process and that KPMG is threatening to walk away by the end of De- cember is appalling. It is right that the Government should do what it can. I ask the Leader to take that message back.

Senator Gavan spoke about inequality in the United States. Equality is important and we need to learn lessons from it, but another significant threat to democracy there, in this country and in Europe is populism, fake news and mistruths that are spread on social media. We all have to take account of that.

I wish to briefly raise a very difficult, divisive and emotive debate that took place in the House in recent weeks on mother and baby homes. Unfortunately, it ended up becoming a political issue, which it should not have. The unfortunate women and their children who suffered at the hands of the State and the church should have been at the very centre of the debate, in terms of recognising and looking back on that shameful, dark period in our lives.

The commission has published its 4,000 page report, which has been sent to the Minister. There were several delays in recent years, and it is most important that the report be published along with its recommendations on redress. I ask the Leader to take up the issue. It is good that the commission is sitting for another four months to fully consult survivors about having their identity revealed. The Taoiseach, the Attorney General and the Minister have very clearly stated that everybody can have access to their own personal records. It is most important to state that here, loudly and clearly.

05/11/2020X00300Senator Seán Kyne: I with to raise the issue of BusConnects. I commend all those work-

230 5 November 2020 ing in public transport companies who have kept services operating throughout the pandemic, although there have been issues with some services in Galway city that negatively impacted on communities.

It appears that the BusConnects plans for Dublin have been significantly changed following the rounds of public consultation that have taken place. I understand another round of public consultation is set to begin shortly on the revised plans. The substantial consultation with public representatives and communities is to be welcomed and acknowledged. It is a productive approach to take. I also understand the National Transport Authority, NTA, intends to lodge a planning application in March and to start the project on a phased basis in 2022, with a completion date in 2027. While the timeframe seems excessive, the plan is a significant one that involves land acquisition, route changes and new vehicles. During the summer the NTA issued a tender for the supply of 200 electric buses for public transport.

I suggest that the focus on Dublin has been to the detriment of other cities such as Galway. Early last month, a public consultation opened on a cross-city link in Galway city, which aims to introduce a public transport corridor from University Road in the west of the city to the old Dublin Road in the east. Everybody in Galway would agree that this route is badly needed. However, except for this project there has been little progress on other more comprehensive and strategic BusConnects plans for Galway and other cities. That must change, notwithstanding the constraints on the resources and capacity of the NTA.

In February 2018, the Fine Gael-led Government allocated €200 million for transport investment in Galway, including public transport and cycling and walking infrastructure under the national development plan. The launch this week of the review of the plan by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Michael McGrath, highlights an opportunity to make more progress on public transport development, including on the BusConnects plan. I ask the Leader to request that the Minister for Transport come to the Seanad to debate and discuss the provision and expansion of public transport outside of Dublin in other cities and rural areas.

05/11/2020Y00100Senator Victor Boyhan: I welcome this initiative. It is positive that we are using our time in the Seanad to at least highlight matters. I thank the Leader and the Cathaoirleach for arrang- ing it.

I want to raise the issue of local government finance. We are aware that our city and county councils are struggling financially. I especially wish to mention local property tax, LPT. Will the Leader extend an invitation and arrange for the Minister for Finance to come to the Seanad to discuss the LPT? One only needs to look at the website of Fine Gael, the Leader’s party, the Government website,and the Minister’s website to see the endless commitments and promises to reform the LPT. I am opposed to this tax in principle. I am not opposed to bringing in income to local authorities but the system used is very unfair. A neighbour of mine is a very elderly pensioner on a very low income. She is paying the tax. I spoke to two professionals recently who live in Foxrock and who have an income in excess of €200,000. They do not pay the LPT. This is historical because, since 2013, all new properties are exempt from the tax. It is an absolute shame. It is a disgrace. The system requires urgent reform. In Dún Laoghaire- Rathdown, there are more than 4,000 houses, I will not speculate about what they cost but they are valuable properties and perhaps cost in excess of €500,000. The people involved have never paid the LPT. That is wrong. I do not think we need to convince anyone that it is wrong. In that context, we need to hear from the Minister. We cannot keep putting it off. There have been some suggestions about general elections, certain demographics and why we are not doing 231 Seanad Éireann anything about it, but that is all speculation. We need to address how we are going to bring in some sort of emergency legislation to at least bring that group into the net. I will leave it at that. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister to come in to discuss the issue.

05/11/2020Y00200Senator Timmy Dooley: As we face into the Christmas period, it is appropriate that we would have a discussion on living with Covid-19. There has been a very genuine effort in the last weeks by most people in Ireland to try to suppress the virus after it appeared to be spiral- ling out of control. It is too early to predict what the incidence rate will be in December but it is absolutely necessary that the Government sets in train a strategy for managing the Covid-19 response during the Christmas period.

I have been contacted by a large number of elderly people who have sons, daughters and grandchildren dotted around the world. They want to see their loved ones return home for Christmas. They are going the hard yards now and have done the hard yards over the past months to play their part in the suppression of the virus. If I was in any doubt about the sin- cerity of their concerns, a number of them have put it to me and made it very clear that they have done the work. One elderly woman asked me “What is the purpose of me living anymore and what effort is being made to protect me and my life unless there is something at the end?” For her the obvious end right now is to see her son, her daughter-in-law and their young child return home for Christmas. This is not something that can be decided on Christmas Eve or in the middle of December. People have to make plans, book flights and make preparations. The Government needs to set out, without delay, a clear plan and a strategy that gives some certainty for what is a really important juncture in people’s lives.

05/11/2020Z00100Senator Marie Sherlock: I acknowledge yesterday’s announcement of the Government’s intention to undertake a review of company law as it relates to redundancies and insolvencies. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate with the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation on the legislative requirements associated with redundancies and liquidations. It is important that we contribute to that review. It is incumbent on the House to make our views known.

For many months the Leader has listened to numerous Members talk about the shameful treatment of Debenhams workers and the fears that so many more workers will also find themselves losing their jobs and trying to access their enhanced redundancy payments in coming months. Debenhams workers on Parnell Street and elsewhere in the country will say they have maintained their presence outside their former place of work for more than 200 days because they do not want what happened to them to ever happen to anybody else. They are doing it for themselves, but also for everybody else.

It is incumbent on us to have a debate in this House. I do not want to prejudge the out- come of that review. Along with other Members, I attended the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment yesterday at which Mr. Kevin Duffy and Ms Neasa Cahill outlined their recommendations for the review. In response to a question from me, they confirmed that the recommendations in the Duffy Cahill report can be fully implemented within the confines of employment law changes.

I do not want this company law review to be a box-ticking exercise further to the commitment made in the programme for Government. It could happen that they go through what are the perceived changes needed in company law, identify that no changes are needed and then we move on. That will simply not be good enough. We need changes. The Duffy Cahill report was produced four years ago and has been sitting on a shelf waiting to be implemented. There are 232 5 November 2020 clear recommendations on how it can be implemented within employment law.

This week I received an email from a very upset business owner. What does the Govern- ment have against circuses?

05/11/2020Z00200Senator Robbie Gallagher: Competition.

05/11/2020Z00300Senator Marie Sherlock: The email was from the operator of one of the largest circuses in the country, which is 250 years in existence.

05/11/2020Z00400An Cathaoirleach: I rang the bell because the Senator is over time.

05/11/2020Z00500Senator Marie Sherlock: Let me just finish.

05/11/2020Z00600An Cathaoirleach: Not on the issue she is raising.

05/11/2020Z00700Senator Marie Sherlock: Up to now they thought they had been forgotten about, but they have been specifically excluded from the Covid restrictions subsidy scheme. It identifies at point 4.11 that circuses are excluded. This is a business and an art form recognised by the Arts Council. The Government needs to do more to support that art form and support that business.

05/11/2020Z00800Senator Robbie Gallagher: The reduction in the incidence of Covid in recent days has been encouraging. The R-rate is now down below 1, which is welcome. I believe Ireland is in the top five in Europe, which indicates we are heading in the right direction. Irish people in their business and personal lives have paid an enormous price to be where we are today. They have made a significant sacrifice and personal effort to get to where we are.

Further to Senator Dooley’s comments, many elderly people have paid an even greater price in having to cocoon and isolate themselves as far back as March. For them and for all of us, having something to look forward to is what life is all about. Many of them are now looking forward to the Christmas season. Many of those people have sons, daughters and grandchildren living and working across the globe. All of them are hoping to return home for the Christmas period. It is incumbent on the Government to be creative and find a way to allow these people to return home safely. The key word is “safely”. Testing could be done before leaving the country where they live and if the test proves negative, they could be allowed to continue with their journey. When they arrive in this country, they could be tested again. That sort of imaginative thinking should not be beyond the Minister for Transport and I am sure it will not be. I call on him to introduce such testing, as a matter of urgency. As Senator Dooley outlined, we cannot do this the week before Christmas. We need a plan put in place today in order that people can plan properly and look forward to being reunited with their loved ones over the Christmas period.

05/11/2020AA00200Senator Aisling Dolan: Ballinasloe is a town that has a population of more than 6,500 people. We are again facing another application for a permit to allow a waste transfer station to be located in the town. This means that hundreds of trucks would be driven through the centre of Ballinasloe town to reach the location. Somehow it was considered okay for 30-, 15- and 10-tonne trucks to be driven through built-up areas and driven past schools, a hospital and playgrounds. Being a member of the Ballinasloe Says No campaign was how I got started in public representation. We fought the application three years ago and went to the High Court where we won on judicial review under the habitats directive. Unfortunately, we must fight it again during a time of lockdown. I wish to highlight to people that we will hold a public online Zoom meeting on Tuesday, 17 November at 8 p.m. Anyone can register, get involved and find

233 Seanad Éireann out about what is happening at: [email protected]. People can also contact us on any of our Facebook and Instagram pages.

As well as being a Senator, I am the secretary and public relations officer, PRO, for the group because the issue is so important to me. It is important because it impacts on air pollution in the town with hundreds of diesel-powered trucks passing through and affects the health of the people who live in the area.

I ask my senatorial colleagues for their support. I am happy to note that most of the public representatives in counties Roscommon and Galway, including Senator Eugene Murphy, support our objection that we will submit. We have 25 working days to ensure that Galway County Council and its environment section hear our voice and understand that locating a waste transfer station in Ballinasloe, thus lead to hundreds of trucks being driven through the town is not possible, not feasible and will not be accepted.

05/11/2020AA00300Senator Fintan Warfield: I welcome yesterday’s decision by An Bord Pleanála to reject a co-living development in Harold’s Cross.

Last week, we debated the Residential Tenancies Bill here and I raised the issue of co-living in the context of Covid-19. The Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O’Brien, did not seem too impressed that I used the debate to raise the issue of co- living. I ask for a debate in this House specifically on co-living and let those who support the model come in, and stand over it.

Even a reporter for the Financial Times described a co-living development in London as a “hobbit home” and when detailing the layout of the room she said, “Imagine a dolled-up Holi- day Inn.” I think the model is based on greed. It has no regard for the tenants and local community who have come out against the co-living development in Harold’s Cross and Fumbally Lane in the Liberties, Dublin 8. It is even less impressive in the context of Covid-19.

In its decision, An Bord Pleanála indicated that developers had not even bothered to stick to the guidelines of where co-living developments should be located. When the people proposing these developments do not even stick to the Government’s guidelines that very much exposes the opportunistic nature of co-living developments.

The developers in Harold’s Cross originally applied for a smaller number of larger sized apartments. I think they saw an opportunity with the new regulations and chanced their arm. That sums up the motivation for co-living, which is about sweating the asset. We await a decision by An Bord Pleanála about the development at Fumbally Lane in the Liberties and, therefore, we need a debate. As I said, the Minister was unwilling to discuss the issue when we debated the Residential Tenancies Bill and I ask the Leader to schedule a debate.

05/11/2020AA00400Senator Malcolm Byrne: The Leader will be aware that I regularly raise the question about the social media giants, how they control ever more aspects of our lives and how they respond to consumer behaviour. I note that this morning WhatsApp introduced a feature that will make messages disappear after seven days. Given recent events, this is a clear indication that WhatsApp is responding to consumer behaviour.

I endorse Senator Hoey’s remarks concerning a call for a debate on foreign policy. In addition to raising the very legitimate concerns around Poland and Hungary, we should also extend solidarity from this House to France and Austria given the recent terrorist attacks there. In our 234 5 November 2020 debate on foreign policy we need to focus on the kind of values that we have as a country and which inform our foreign policy and our values as a European Union.

I would also like a debate on regional development strategy. This issue is important to Members of this House. I welcome that the global business service provider, CSE, has announced the provision of 75 new high-end jobs in Gorey at the M11 business park. This is a state-of-the-art facility that is ideal to attract this type of employment. It is a vote of confidence in a progressive town like Gorey. I am grateful for the work of IDA Ireland in that regard. It is important, particularly in terms of the remote working strategy and the Government regional development strategy, that we hold a debate to examine the ways in which we can support all of our towns and villages to ensure major developments do not only happen in the cities.

05/11/2020BB00200Senator Barry Ward: Ba mhaith liom labhairt ar feadh nóiméid faoi chlárúcháin vótála. The deadline for registration on the draft register of electors is 25 November next. It is important to encourage people to register to vote so that they have a say in the next election, whenever that might be. It is also important to remind people that no matter where they come from, as long as they are living in Ireland and they are over 18 years of age by 15 February 2021, they are entitled to be part of that process. I know the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, has responsibility for this area, including for reform which would be welcome.

There are few times in the year when it is as obvious as it is now that there benefits to having an independent election process and an independent voter registration process. We are wit- nessing in the United States the extraordinary scenario whereby officials who are responsible for administering voter registration or the counting of ballots are also on news channels giving partisan political commentary. This is extraordinary to Irish ears. We are incredibly lucky that we have a system that is independent in that regard. However, it is not a system that does not require reform. The fact that there is one draft register that is completed on 15 February every year is a cumbersome and unnecessary aspect of our voter registration system. By the same token, there is huge duplication within the system. Individual entries are not given individual identifier numbers such as PPS numbers or dates of birth, which allows for duplication. This means, for example, that statistics on turnout are inevitably inaccurate.

I am calling for a debate on reform of that system to ensure it is not only transparent but also accurate and facilitates those who are more mobile than others. Young people in particular do not live for all time at one address. If they are students, they rent properties which quite often are far away from where they grew up. In those circumstances, we need to put in place a system that facilitates their registration and voting in the areas in which they are resident at any given time. We need to have a debate on this matter.

05/11/2020BB00300Senator Paddy Burke: I am seeking a debate in the House on water and waste water charges. The Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, was to commence the streamlining and standardisation of the over 500 different tariffs for non-domestic water charges and waste water charges but this process has been postponed until 1 May 2021. That is to be welcomed. At the same time, we need details on where the charges will be applied, what charges will be applied and how they will be implemented, particularly at this time, when businesses are going through such a difficult time. There are a lot of changes in business and how businesses operate and in the charges levied on them, least of all the water and wastewater charges.

Wastewater and water charges are a major cost for businesses and anything we can do should be done to reduce that cost for them. It is important that we would have a debate here 235 Seanad Éireann in the not too distant future to look at this and to see how it will operate. The CRU is advising people and businesses to go online and see how it affects them. It states that some people may face a reduction in charges of up to €250 but it in some cases it will be €750. However, that €750 reduction will be implemented over a three-year period in some cases and there will be a cap of 10% on the annual bill. While the other charges are complicated, this seems to be complicated as well so I ask the Leader to arrange for a debate on this issue.

05/11/2020CC00200Senator Martin Conway: I want to raise the issue of mica and pyrite, particularly in County Clare. There are 33 houses in the county that we know of that have been declared to have issues with pyrite. As the Cathaoirleach will be aware, pyrite is a harmful mineral found in quarries. Sadly, there are particular periods when houses were built from stone that contained this mineral. Over the past decade or so, in particular, many houses in County Clare had insulation installed and beads pumped into the walls. Unfortunately, when this mineral mixes with moisture, which happens particularly when people put insulation in their houses, it leads to expansion and cracking. In some cases, the houses are deemed unsuitable for habitation and have to be demolished.

There is an active pyrite support group in County Clare that has done a lot of work in this area. It wants the county to be included in the concrete block grant scheme that is available in counties Donegal and Mayo, particularly in parts of Ballina, County Mayo. There is a scheme in Limerick, which is essentially a pyrite grant but that only goes to a maximum of €70,000 and is only suitable for houses that have floors with pyrite. It is not appropriate or suitable in County Clare because most, if not all, of the 33 houses that have been declared to have pyrite will have to be demolished and rebuilt. A grant of €275,000, which is available to citizens and homeowners in counties Donegal and Mayo is what the action group in Clare wants. That is a reasonable request.

I have been in touch with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage. As yet, I have not had a significant response. I realise he has been busy with the budget and so on in recent times but this is an issue that will not just affect people in County Clare because there is no doubt that this exists in other counties as well. It would be appropriate that in the coming weeks the Leader would organise for the Minister to come in and take statements on this issue so that we can tease it out with him. Hopefully, we can achieve some justice and a resolution, particularly for the 33 homeowners in County Clare and the many other people who are affected.

05/11/2020CC00300Senator Tim Lombard: I raised the issue of waste water treatment plants and the lack of major infrastructure we have in many of our towns and villages throughout the country during a Commencement debate earlier. Most local authorities are going through a county development plan process where they are examining land, zonings and how small villages and towns can develop. The key issue is the lack of waste water and water infrastructure. Without that infrastructure, these settlements cannot develop. That is one of the key issues Irish Water needs to consider to ensure a sustainable growth pattern throughout the entire country.

If Covid-19 has taught us anything, it has taught us about the beauty of living in small villages and towns and of living in rural Ireland. The capacity for Irish Water to deal with these villages and towns is becoming a major issue. There are over 200 different settlements in Coun- ty Cork now and the majority of these do not have adequate water and sewerage systems. It is very hard for these communities to develop as a result. We all know we are moving away from the model of once-off rural housing but we need to sustainably build our villages and towns. I 236 5 November 2020 could speak of places - Ballineen and Enniskean are two examples - which are big towns and villages and which do not have the capacity to develop because of a lack of infrastructure.

We need a debate with the Minister with responsibility for local government in order that he can tell us how he proposes to see this new Ireland develop. This new Ireland must develop around villages and towns, which must have the capacity to develop. It must be a core driver for Irish Water but, unfortunately, it has not yet stepped into the space. It is a major deficit and as a result, we do not have the sustainable rural development we spoke about. I appeal to the Leader to ask the Minister to come before the House and bring forward his ideas on how to bring about the sustainable model that we have all spoken about. Otherwise, we will continue to see what we have now, which is a continuous movement of populations to the cities, including Dublin, which do not have capacity for more development.

05/11/2020DD00200Senator Garret Ahearn: I rise to speak about the need for the Government to support post offices. I welcome the announcement by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Heather Humphreys, a number of weeks ago on changing social welfare payments to a weekly basis. This is encouraging for a number of reasons. It is much easier for people to get their payments on a weekly basis and some people were struggling when that was not the case. It also brings people back to towns and encourages them on a weekly basis to pick up the payment and then possibly spend on the back of that. For areas like mine in Tipperary, that is really important. It is also encouraging for An Post, which is also important.

We need to support the post office network. A report was completed by Grant Thornton and one of the major recommendations was that the post office network needs approximately €17 million annually to be sustainable. This would protect post offices and particularly rural post offices in areas like mine in Tipperary. As we heard earlier, they are vital for communities. In Cahir, for example, there is a productive post office and it has a knock-on effect for the town. Does the Leader agree that we must support the recommendations in the Grant Thornton report to support post offices? We can look across the water to the UK, where post offices that were previously closed have started to reopen. We do not wish to end up in a position where we regret the loss of the wonderful support and contribution that local post offices make in rural areas like mine in Tipperary. We should encourage as much as we can the support of those post offices.

05/11/2020DD00300Senator Pauline O’Reilly: I take up the point made by a previous speaker blaming the Green Party for closing the Shannon LNG facility. It is not the Green Party’s fault that there is climate change or that all of us must take responsibility and act on it. That is why we are in the Government; we are doing the right thing by the people of north Kerry. If we invest in an energy system that will not survive, the people of north Kerry will not have jobs for very long. That is exactly what happened to people in Wales. Investment in coal has really just ended up devastating communities because of the lack of sustainability or long-term vision. We must also think about the children of north Kerry, Limerick and Clare. They want to see a greener future. We are absolutely committed in the Government to a just transition for all the people in the west of Ireland.

05/11/2020EE00100Senator Eugene Murphy: I had to rush up the stairs as well but I have had a little more time to recover than Senator Pauline O’Reilly. The Leader heard from my colleague Senator Aisling Dolan about the horrible possibility of a dump or waste transfer station being located in the town of Ballinasloe. The people there have fought this previously. They thought they had won and I warned them at the time of the possibility of it happening again. I endorse what 237 Seanad Éireann Senator Dolan said. This is a major issue for a town of 7,000 people, where this station may be placed. This matter has been controversial for years. Court actions have been brought on it previously and we cannot allow this to happen in the town of Ballinasloe. I support my colleague in making the Leader aware of what is going on there.

05/11/2020EE00200An Cathaoirleach: Under Standing Orders, Matters on the Business of the Seanad is sched- uled to take one hour and the Leader has ten minutes to respond. We have gone slightly over time so I beg the Leader’s indulgence. This business was brought in because Members wanted it and Members and all groups should be here for the Leader’s response, out of respect for the House. I acknowledge that not everyone can be here but every group should be represented for the Leader’s response.

05/11/2020EE00300Senator Regina Doherty: Wide-ranging and varied debates have been requested by Sena- tors and one can see that although Covid seems to be all-consuming, normal life and normal challenges still exist for all our towns, villages and communities. I take my hat off to Bal- linasloe Says No because it won on this issue once previously. I wish Senators Murphy and Dolan and all the community groups down there every success in challenging this plan. Please God they will be successful a second time.

I will request debates on all the issues raised over the coming weeks. The most common request, which Senator Dooley raised earlier, is for the Minister for Health to come in and discuss the plan for living with Covid with us as colleagues. That debate is arranged for next Tuesday afternoon. It is just a coincidence that the Senator raised it again today. It was heartbreaking to listen to him talk about that lady who wants her family to come home for Christmas, which is something so normal that is taken for granted. The heartbreaking bit was when she asked him what in the name of God she has to live for and look forward to if they do not come home. Hope is probably the biggest thing we can instil in all our constituents and citizens in this country because people are doing their absolute level best. The vast majority of people are living by every single rule and doing everything that has been asked of them since March. If we cannot at least give them hope that some sort of normal, sociable Christmas is coming, I do not blame them for wondering what in the name of God it is all for. It is incumbent on all of us to make sure we instil that vision of hope. We will have an opportunity next week to ask questions on what the strategy for living with Covid will be when we come out of level 5 restrictions in the next few weeks.

We need to get back to a sense of normality and have debates on important issues, including waste water, regional planning and the development of our public transport infrastructure. We must also realise that there are very pertinent and immediate issues with regard to climate change. All these matters are important. The delivery of services has been impacted because of Covid and redirection but the debating of them and analysis of our public policy is no less important now than before. To that end, and because we have certainty that we can sit on Tues- days and Wednesdays between now and Christmas, I will do my level best to have as wide and varied a debate topic schedule as we can over the next few weeks.

Commencement Matters have resumed, which is very important. I have requested that all those who do not get picked for Commencement Matters on Tuesdays and Wednesdays be issued with written responses. Given the climate we are in, where we do not have the opportunity to mix and mingle with colleagues, Ministers or officials the way we would under normal circumstances, the very least we can expect is written responses to the questions we submit every Tuesday and Wednesday. 238 5 November 2020 I welcome today’s business. It is new and unusual but it should be an important part of our daily sittings when we cannot have a debate on the Order of Business. I also welcome that we are back in our own Chamber and look forward to many more days ahead.

05/11/2020EE00400An Cathaoirleach: I thank the Leader and all Members for participating in this new innovation in the Seanad, which allows Members to raise matters of concern in their communities as well as national and international issues. I thank the Leader for her response.

Sitting suspended at 1 p.m. and resumed at 1.35 p.m.

05/11/2020NN00100Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2020: Order for Second Stage

Bill entitled an Act to give further effect to Directive (EU) 2017/1371 of the European Par- liament and of the Council of 5 July 20171 on the fight against fraud to the Union’s financial interests by means of criminal law; for that purpose to amend the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 and the Criminal Justice Act 1994; and to provide for related matters.

05/11/2020NN00300Senator Barry Ward: I move: “That Second Stage be taken now.”

Question put and agreed to.

05/11/2020NN00400Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2020: Second Stage

Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.”

05/11/2020NN00600Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne): I am pleased to introduce the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) (Amendment) Bill 2020. The purpose of this relatively short Bill is to complete the transposition of Directive EU 2017/1371 on the fight against fraud to the Union’s financial interests by means of criminal law, commonly referred to as the “PIF directive”. This directive further harmonises the approach across the EU to the criminalisation of fraud affecting the Union’s financial interests. I am hopeful the Bill will receive broad support in the House.

As Senators know, membership of the EU means that member states must contribute to the EU budget. Equally, member states receive funding from the EU budget through a variety of sources. Responsibility for protecting the Union’s financial interests and fighting fraud is a shared responsibility between the EU bodies and the authorities within its member states. Member state authorities manage approximately 74% of EU expenditure and collect the EU’s traditional own resources. As such, it is incumbent on all member states to take the necessary and appropriate measures to tackle criminal behaviour in relation to both EU revenue and expenditure.

The Directive replaces the 1995 EU convention on the protection of the European Com- munities’ financial interests and the related protocols, which was the first measure to create a 239 Seanad Éireann common approach to the criminal prosecution of offences against the EU’s financial interests. This directive establishes minimum rules concerning the definition of criminal offences and sanctions with regard combating fraud and other illegal activities, including corruption and money laundering, which affect the European Union’s financial interests. These financial interests refer to all revenues, expenditure and assets covered by, acquired through, or due to, the Union budget, the budgets of the EU institutions, or budgets directly or indirectly managed and monitored by them.

Fraud offences are, of course, not new to our legal system, or indeed to those of other member states. There are very few situations where the existing general offences on the Statute Book cannot be used to prosecute the relevant criminal behaviour in the State. Many aspects of the directive have not required legislation as the appropriate offences are already in place. However, this directive harmonises measures across member states and seeks to ensure that they are practical deterrents, that they fit together with other EU measures, and that they are effective against, in particular, cross-border crime. The key offence of fraud affecting the Union’s financial interests is already in place. Ireland first gave effect to this offence in section 42 of Part 6 of the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001. The directive requires that the offence be updated to provide for a new offence of misappropriation and to apply the freezing and confiscation measures which are contained in the Criminal Justice Act 1994 to the proceeds of criminal offences under this Bill. This is achieved through an amendment to Schedule 1A to the Criminal Justice Act 1994 to enable the freezing and confiscation of instrumentalities and proceeds from the criminal offences in the Bill.

Other provisions in the directive are already provided for in existing legislation and therefore do not need to be separately provided for in this Bill. Notably, the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018 and the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010, as amended, apply in their respective areas and satisfy the requirements of the directive. Another provision of the directive is that committing a serious offence within its scope as part of the activities of a criminal organisation is considered an aggravating factor in sentencing. This provision already exists on a general basis through section 74A of the Criminal Justice Act 2006, as amended.

In a European context, the directive is of particular significance in that it defines the scope of offences falling under the European Public Prosecutor’s Office, EPPO. Although Ireland is not participating in the EPPO, those offences will be prosecuted by the EPPO in other member states, potentially in co-operation with Irish authorities, so I would like to address developments in respect of that office. As Senators will be aware, the establishment of an EU-level body with investigative and prosecution powers was under consideration for many years. The legal basis for it was ultimately included in Article 86 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, as introduced by the Lisbon treaty. The regulation for its establishment en- tered into force in 2017 through a special legislative process and 22 member states are participating in it. Ireland, Denmark, Sweden, Hungary and Poland are not taking part. A European chief prosecutor and 22 nationally appointed European prosecutors are now in place and the EPPO is expected to be operational by the end of 2020.

In respect of Ireland’s participation in the EPPO, the development of a supranational investigative and prosecution authority, even one with a relatively limited scope, clearly presents fundamental questions of policy which are outside the scope of the Bill. However, I note that a critical difficulty would have arisen whereby Irish courts would not be entitled to exclude evidence the collection of which contravened rights under the Constitution. Under the EPPO regu- 240 5 November 2020 lation, evidence would potentially be admissible based on other member state legal regimes and the regulation itself. In more general terms, challenges arose in how the EPPO structures would have interacted with our common law regime, given that the EPPO built primarily from a civil base. Although Ireland could not take part, we recognise that the establishment of the EPPO is an important and innovative EU measure and we have been working closely with participating member states and the EPPO, in particular to look at how cooperation with non-participating member states will work.

Although details of the arrangements are currently being worked on, the expectation is that under Article 105(3) of the EPPO regulation, participating member states will designate the EPPO as a competent authority within each for the purposes of making mutual legal assistance and European arrest warrant requests to non-participating states. These issues are currently under detailed consideration. It is important that we avoid conflicts of jurisdiction and ensure legal certainty in respect of requests. We will be consulting and taking into account the advice of the Attorney General on these matters. It is important to emphasise that the fact that Ireland is not participating in the EPPO does not prevent us from prosecuting such crimes in Ireland. Such offences will be dealt with by the relevant agencies within the criminal justice system, such as An Garda Síochána and the Director of Public Prosecutions.

I will now turn to the content and provisions of the Bill before the House. As I noted, it is a relatively short and primarily technical Bill comprising 11 sections and a Schedule. Section 1 is a standard provision defining the principal Act as the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

Section 2 amends section 40, which is the interpretation section for Part 6 of the 2001 Act, and substitutes the definitions which will now apply to Part 6. In particular, it provides that the offences in the Bill have the same meaning as they do in the directive. This means that the offence of fraud affecting the financial interests of the European Union has the same meaning as in Article 3(2). The section provides that the offence of misappropriation has the same meaning as it has in Article 4(3). It also provides that “corruption offence” means an offence under section 5 of the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018 and that “money laundering offence” means an offence under Part 2 of the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010. Definitions of terms such as “national official”, “public official”, “union official” and “foreign official” are also included.

Section 3 amends section 42, the existing offence provision for fraud affecting the financial interests of the EU. It provides that the elements of the conduct that constitute the offence of fraud, when committed intentionally, can be in respect of non-procurement related expenditure, procurement-related expenditure, revenue other than revenue arising from VAT own resources, and revenue arising from VAT own resources in cross-border fraudulent schemes where the total fraud involves a value in excess of €10 million. A person guilty of an offence is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or five years’ imprisonment or both.

Section 4 inserts a new section 42A into the 2001 Act, which provides for the new offence of misappropriation. Section 2 provides that it has the same meaning as in Article 4(3) of the directive, which means the action of a public official who is directly or indirectly entrusted with the management of funds or assets to commit or disburse funds or appropriate or use assets contrary to the purpose for which they were in any way which damages the Union’s financial interests. A person guilty of an offence is liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or both. 241 Seanad Éireann Section 5 inserts a new section 42B into the 2001 Act providing for liability for offences by a body corporate in respect of an offence under section 42 or section 42A and provides for penalties on conviction on indictment of imprisonment and-or a fine.

Section 6 amends section 45 of the 2001 Act and provides for extraterritorial jurisdiction. I intend to bring forward amendments on Committee Stage in respect of dual criminality and to extend the jurisdiction where the criminal offence is committed by a resident of the State or a body corporate established in the State.

Section 7 provides for a technical amendment to section 58, regarding liability for offences by bodies corporate under the 2001 Act, to exclude the application of section 58 of the principal Act to Part 6 in view of the new section 42B inserted by section 5.

Section 8 provides for the insertion of Schedule 1A in the principal Act containing the text of the directive.

Section 9 adds the offences of “fraud affecting the financial interests of the European Union” and “misappropriation” to paragraph 10 of Part 2 of Schedule 1A of the Criminal Justice Act 1994. Article 10 of the directive requires measures to be put in place, in accordance with Direc- tive 2014/42/EU, to enable the freezing and confiscation of instrumentalities and proceeds from the criminal offences in the directive. The principal offence of money laundering and active and passive corruption are already subject to these measures.

Section 10 provides for the repeal of sections 41, 46(4) and 47 and Schedules 2 to 9 to the principal Act. These Schedules are the 1995 Convention and related protocols on which Part 6 of Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 is currently based, and as they are being replaced by the directive they will, therefore, no longer be relevant.

Section 11 is a standard provision, providing for the Short Title, collective citation and commencement provisions. The changes this Bill will make to our existing legislation enables us give full effect to the EU directive. As the transposition date for this was 6 July 2019, I hope Senators will facilitate its speedy passage through the House as enactment of this Bill will demonstrate Ireland’s continued commitment to tackling fraud affecting the Union’s financial interests.

As I previously mentioned, I propose to bring forward amendments on Committee Stage regarding the extraterritorial jurisdiction provided for in section 6. I also intend to bring forward technical amendments to include the new offence of misappropriation in the relevant Sched- ules to the Criminal Justice Act 2011 and the European Union (Passenger Name Record Data) Regulations 2018. I look forward to considering the Bill further with Senators on the remaining Stages, and I commend the Bill to the House.

05/11/2020PP00200Senator Robbie Gallagher: The Minister of State is welcome back into the House for consideration of this legislation, which is short and technical. We in Fianna Fáil are happy to support this Bill transposing EU directives that will help in the fight against fraud and that will be in the financial interests of the EU. It is critical that we have good co-operation across the EU when it comes to tackling areas of fraud such as those mentioned. I understand the level of fraud involved is largely unknown. However, some informed sources have said that the figure could reach as much €500 million per annum, a sizeable sum of money in anybody’s language. It is important that such a large sum of money, which could be used for the benefit of EU citizens, is not lost. We can think of many areas in need of funding and this is a massive amount of 242 5 November 2020 money, so it is vital that every effort is made to ensure there is a consistent approach to fighting fraud such as this across the EU.

The Minister of State mentioned that not all member states have transposed this directive into their national law. Why is there a problem with some states? The Minister of State mentioned Portugal and a few others. Is there a particular problem or what is the reason for the delay? How many member states have yet to sign up to the directive, and is there a timeframe for it to be transposed into the member states’ legal systems? With regard to this type of fraud, do we have arrangements with other states outside the EU and what is the position there? In the context of Brexit and our neighbour, the UK, leaving the EU, what effect will that have on existing arrangements that may be in place in respect of this type of fraud? Are there any plans to formulate a relationship with the UK after 31 December when Britain leaves the EU?

I am happy to support the Bill on behalf of Fianna Fáil, and I look forward to it being passed speedily by the House.

05/11/2020QQ00200Senator Barry Ward: I welcome the Minister of State back to the House. Like my colleague, Senator Gallagher, I welcome the Bill. Fine Gael is supporting this legislation which is very important to implement the existing directive relating to these matters. This legislative measure comes at the end of a long path of legislation in this area. Obviously, theft, fraud and dishonesty offences are as old as time. In 2001, Ireland passed an Act which gave effect to other international conventions at that time and replaced the Larceny Act 1916 and many of the outdated provisions in that Act. The 2001 Act was the standard bearer in respect of dishonesty offences and has been for almost 20 years, but this is the tenth iteration of amendments to that legislation so it has had to be updated as the nature of crime in this area has changed and become particularly advanced. I refer, in particular, to the cybercrime and corruption offences that are targeted by this amendment to Part 6 of the 2001 Act.

We have often been critical in recent months of the fact that legislation gets pushed through the House. I welcome the fact that the Minister of State is both initiating this Bill in the Seanad and giving us an opportunity to deal with it and also allowing us to deal with it in an appropriate fashion, by starting with Second Stage and canvassing the views of Members. I also note what he said about bringing forward amendments on Committee Stage and we look forward to that. I congratulate him on taking a reasoned approach to this.

I noted what Senator Gallagher said about the difficulties other states have had in transposing the directive into their national law. I am not sure that Ireland is in a position to cast stones in that regard, because we have been quite slow in doing so with other legislation. I also note that the Commission is due to bring a report before the European Parliament on 6 July 2021. In light of what the Minister of State said, I certainly hope we will have it passed and in law by then and that the Commission will be in a position to report on the provisions we have put in place to implement the directive, which is an important one.

There was also an opportunity in this legislation to examine, perhaps, gaps that have arisen in the last 20 years in the ordinary course and beyond what this Bill specifically does in terms of transposing the directive, for example, the provision of greater penalties in respect of making a gain or causing a loss by deception, which is provided for in section 6 of the 2001 Act. The Oireachtas has taken time since the 2001 Act and in recent years to make a very clear policy statement in respect of the unacceptability of certain offences by marking specifically harsh or strong penalties in respect of certain types of offence, or offences that take place at a certain 243 Seanad Éireann level. I have in mind specifically section 15A of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977, as amended. The section provides a presumptive minimum mandatory sentence of ten years in respect of the possession of drugs for sale and supply of greater than €13,000. I recognise that the operation of the measure in practical terms has a different effect than was perhaps intended by the Oireachtas but nonetheless the Oireachtas took an important step in making a clear statement that the State would not tolerate drugs activities at that level.

When we look at section 6 of the 2001 Act, we can also say that it is possibly appropriate for the State to make a similar statement in respect of fraud and deception, also at a very high level. In recent years we have seen prosecutions in this jurisdiction for extraordinarily high levels of fraud alleged against individuals. It would potentially have been appropriate in this legislation to bring forward, perhaps a section 6A, to provide for a minimum mandatory sentence in respect of fraud above a certain level. I do not prescribe what that is, but there was an opportunity there to look at that.

Notwithstanding that, I think it is very important to have regard to what is in the Act. By my reckoning, it really does three specific things in extending the definition of fraud within the context of the European Union’s financial interests; defining the offence of misappropriation and the extraterritorial applications provided for in section 6. I wish to make a point specifically in respect to the definition of “misappropriation”. I heard what the Minister said about the definition section that is provided for in section 2. Misappropriation is said to have the same meaning as it has in Article 4(3) of the directive, which is included as a Schedule to the Bill. From the point of view of making legislation more accessible to the public, as much as it is to practitioners, I wonder if a definition of misappropriation could be put in to the definition section rather than forcing anybody who wants to see what it is to go to Article 4(3) of the directive, which I think is on page 17 of the Bill, and to read the definition that is provided there. I think it would make it easier.

This is the tenth iteration of amendments to the theft and fraud offences legislation in Ire- land. It includes corruption offences, which the Minister mentioned. I think she also mentioned money laundering and terrorist financing, which were dealt with in the Criminal Justice (Money Laundering and Terrorist Financing) Act 2010 but, equally, it covers everything from social welfare and burglary of dwellings to miscellaneous provisions and mutual assistance. There is quite a lot of legislation here.

I have regard in particular to the great work the Law Reform Commission does in providing access to consolidated legislation, which makes it a great deal easier for anybody who wants to parse what is in the legislation to look at a consolidated Act. Again, there is possibly an opportunity for these Houses to consider consolidating the theft and fraud offences legislation into a single Act in order that we have easy access to all the relevant considerations.

Finally, I will address the extraterritorial application of the offences, as provided for in section 6. I welcome this, as I believe it is very important. Again, the nature of these offences is changing. The international nature of them is clear now and we need legislation like this to ensure that the State is equipped to deal with those matters. I do not have any difficulty with the provisions in section 6 relating to the fact that an offence committed in another State, which is an offence there, can be an offence here. That already exists in other Irish legislation. Is it possible to clarify that the principles of autrefois acquit and autrefois convict would equally apply, so that one does not have a double jeopardy situation where somebody was facing charges in both states? I think provision is already made for that generally in law but it might be worth 244 5 November 2020 confirming that this is the case.

I welcome the legislation. I think it is timely. I think Ireland is clearly acting in an expedi- ent manner in terms of putting an important directive into Irish law so that it is there and we comply with our obligations under European law. As the Minister said, the Bill is quite short and it uses the Schedules to the Act to slim down the text of the Bill itself but there is a solid legislative basis for us to proceed. I welcome the Bill.

05/11/2020RR00200Senator Ivana Bacik: I welcome the Minister, Deputy McEntee, to the House and congratulate her on her appointment. It is my first opportunity to do so.

2 o’clock

To echo the words of previous speakers who spoke of the Bill as “technical”, and I believe the Minister used that word himself, the Bill is primarily technical in nature. We have, however, seen some Bills purporting to be technical in nature rather rushed through this House that have created a great deal of controversy in recent weeks. So, I have heard those words with a somewhat dread feeling, which I am sure was shared by others also. This Bill, however, is genuinely a technical one and I am happy to support it on behalf of the Labour Party Senators.

Previous speakers have also referred to the fact that the Minister will bring the Bill forward only to Second Stage today and that we will have some time, which will be short no doubt, before Committee and Remaining Stages. That should not need to be said. It is exceptional that we would see Bills being rushed through this House on all Stages. Unfortunately, that exception has proven to be the norm in recent weeks over this term. I am glad that we are only dealing with Second Stage today, but it is partly because we have the Seanad Chamber today and therefore could not be dealing with Committee and Remaining Stages in any case. I note that the Minister will have amendments on the extraterritorial issue in section 6 coming forward on Committee Stage.

I disagree with the Senator who spoke about minimum mandatory sentences. They are not commonplace in Ireland’s sentencing system and I do not believe they are a good idea. They do not have any evidence basis for their effectiveness and it is welcome that we have not moved towards minimum mandatory sentencing in general in our criminal justice system.

This is a somewhat technical Bill. I will not speak for very long on it. I am aware that it is before us with the purpose of transposing remaining provisions of the 2017 directive known as the PIF directive. I am grateful to the Oireachtas Library and Research Service for its usual excellent work in informing us about the background to the Bill, and for informing us that the name “PIF”, which I had wondered about, is an acronym of the French for protection of financial interests.

The directive is about protecting the EU financial interests and therefore the provisions in this Bill are primarily amending the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001, but doing so in order to create offences around fraud affecting the financial interest of the EU. Some aspects of the PIF directive have already been transposed into our law via the Criminal Justice (Corruption Offences) Act 2018, which replaced some provisions in Part 6 of the Crimi- nal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001.

My primary question for the Minister is why the 2018 Act did not transpose all of the relevant provisions of the directive. In other words, why is this Bill actually necessary? I 245 Seanad Éireann am particularly interested to know the answer to that given that the transposition deadline for the PIF directive, a largely technical directive as we have heard, was 6 July 2019. This is not timely, it is actually overdue. We have already had legislation before the Houses that passed in 2018, which already has inserted some of the relevant provisions from the directive into the 2001 Act. I have a question about why we are only seeing this legislation now, especially given its relatively technical nature.

I have two more points to make. I note that the Bill amends the 2001 Act. The 2001 Act was itself a major piece of codifying and reforming legislation bringing together, as it did at the time 19 years ago, all of the pre-existing law on theft and updating it. I am certainly old enough to remember teaching my students about the Larceny Act 1916, and indeed defending before the courts on prosecutions under that Act. The 2001 Act was a very welcome piece of codifying legislation. Senator Ward referred to the need for consolidating legislation more generally, and made the point that this is the tenth version of amending legislation to the 2001 Act that has been before the Houses. We have excellent consolidating work going on with the Law Reform Commission and others, but we in the Oireachtas have a duty to ensure we are not engaging in piecemeal amendment over different pieces of ad hoc legislation. Again, my question is why we could not have had just one piece of legislation amending the Part 6 of the 2001 Act to transpose the directive. Why is there a need for two? Now we should really be looking at a more wholesale codification of the 2001 Act and its subsequent amendments to ensure we have a criminal theft code. Theft and fraud offences are not the only area, indeed they are not by any means the most problematic area, where we see this sort of piecemeal and ad hoc reform and amendment. Sex offences law is a real area crying out for codification. Many of us have spoken on this many times. We need to see a proper codifying Act that brings together the vast array of these different offences, and especially sex offences against children, on which I did some work a few years ago.

As a result, inconsistencies have arisen over the years and have been litigated before the courts in the context of the provisions of sentencing, etc., on those very serious offences. We could take a lead from companies law where we have very good consolidation in statute. That is a general call.

I note the Minister of State’s comments about the European Public Prosecutor’s Office, EPPO. Ireland is one of five members states which has not taken part in the EPPO system. We opted out of that under Protocol 21 along with four other states on the basis of concerns over our constitutional due process guarantee over our rules regarding admissibility of evidence and more generally because our common law system is different and has evolved differently from the civil law system pertaining in other member states. I absolutely support that. In previous justice committees I have supported us taking a different perspective on criminal law matters. Obviously, Ireland is not the only member state to do so.

However, there are aspects of the civil law system that we can learn from and can borrow from for our own criminal justice system. One of the is the idea of codifying criminal laws so that they are easily accessible and understandable. Consistency across different provisions is a very strong feature of European criminal justice systems. There is also the issue of the protection of victims’ interests. While we have very strong due process laws which I strongly support, we can learn from other European systems in strengthening the role of the victim and enabling the victim to have a voice within the criminal justice system through the partie civile method and other mechanisms. We are changing and improving our system to take account of those good practice measures elsewhere. When we are debating legislation that is European criminal 246 5 November 2020 justice legislation, we should bear those points in mind.

I support the Bill and thank the Minister of State for coming to the House.

05/11/2020TT00200Senator Niall Ó Donnghaile: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Silim gurb é seo a chéad seal ag plé ábhair linn ina ról nua. Déanaim comhghairdeas leis.

Before I speak to the Bill, I touch on an issue that may appear a bit awkward. I am sure it will not be lost on people that today the Government is bringing through legislation that aims to protect the EU’s financial interest while we still have the ongoing saga of Apple’s tax affairs. The Government’s attitude towards the Commission was to fight it in the courts instead of doing the right thing in that regard. I know this Bill is not related to the Apple tax issue, but it should not be lost on anybody here that the EU directive which we are beginning to transpose into law here comes from the belief that the EU’s finances must be protected in the same way that we must protect our own financial interests. The tax loopholes here have contributed to the EU’s frustration with tax avoidance. It is embarrassing that the State is involved in legal disputes that allow Apple to run away with €13 billion that should have been taxed, ach mar a duairt mé, sin scéal eile. That said, Sinn Féin will support the Bill.

It is welcome that the Bill tackles further aspects of white-collar crime, corruption, fraud and tax evasion even though it is more specific to offences against the EU’s financial interests. The Bill aims to tackle fraud that affects the EU’s financial interests. We know the complex VAT fraud and what are known as carousel fraud operations have used shell companies and Irish banks. Of course, they have been unwittingly involved, but criminal enterprises have used Irish banks to commit serious offences. Therefore, it is right that Ireland plays its part as a member state and implements the legislation to give effect to this EU directive. We know that these types of crimes cost EU taxpayers billions of euro each year.

Criminal liability for corporate bodies is very welcome, particularly the failure-to-prevent model, notwithstanding the difficulties highlighted in the court cases with proving intent. I hope it will provide another aspect of liability should a corporate body be negligent in preventing the offence. However, I note that the specific type of corporate criminal liability only applies to offences that affect the EU’s financial interests. The clear aim of Article 10.2 of the 2013 directive and section 9(1) and (2) of the 2017 Act is to drive corporate bodies to ensure that they have mechanisms in place to ensure that their managements prevent employees and subsidiaries from committing offences under the Act and the failure-to-prevent model is considered appropriate. The Law Reform Commission has suggested that this approach could give rise to difficulties and could potentially be unfair. The commission also stated that other legislation has “overcome this particular potential difficulty by requiring that the contingent offence be committed for the benefit of the corporate body as an express proof of the corporate liability mechanism.” It further indicated that it is considered one of the toughest approaches to corporate crime. Can the Minister of State tell me why, in this instance, we did not take the tougher approach to corporate offences?

I want to mention a couple of concerns that I am sure the Minister of State will engage with me on as the debate on legislation proceeds. I agree with other colleagues who have welcomed the fact that we are getting a regular, proper approach in terms of this legislation’s journey through the parliamentary process.

The EU directive failed to create a harmonisation of penalties for these offences across

247 Seanad Éireann member states. I know that the Council has its reasons for that. However, this type of criminality is generally carried out across borders where a problem arises. I mean if the penalties differ across member states it could give rise to issues of legal uncertainty for defendants and concerns about the fundamental rights of defence and entitlement to a fair trial. Does the Minister of State have any thoughts on mitigating the issues that might arise in terms of those fundamental rights? While these crimes are serious, we must still ensure that defendants are treated with their right to justice in mind. I hope that the Minister of State or the Taoiseach have engaged at EU level to ensure that this is not going to be a major issue of concern for us as we move forward.

Other parts of the directive improve harmonisation across member states by actually recognising that fraud and tax evasion affect EU finances under criminal law, which is welcome. What concerns me deeply is that part of this island, with Brexit, is being dragged out of the EU and, therefore, these measures will only have effect on one part of Ireland. I would like to hear from the Minister of State, if he is in a position to provide the information at this stage, on what he thinks the implications will be for the people of the North and, indeed, of the whole of the island in terms of preventing cross-Border fraud, as well what will be the consequences for fundamental rights, in the context of the EU, as a result of Brexit. How will Ministers engage with their colleagues north of the Border?

Sinn Féin supports the Bill at this point. I am sure that, like others, we will seek to amend it at on Committee Stage. At the moment, however, we are content. I look forward to working with the Minister of State, his officials and other colleagues across the House.

05/11/2020UU00200Senator Rónán Mullen: Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I support this Bill. It is technical legislation that transposes a directive and replaces a range of existing EU directives and regulations. The directive and this Bill are aimed at stamping out crimes against the EU budget and specifically mentions fraud that affects the financial interests of the European Union. To be clear, we are talking not just about, for example, the misappropriation of funds that might be obtained under the EU budget but also fraud or wrongdoing concerning money from national budgets that could contribute to EU resources. I mean the EU budget being made up of the EU’s own resources, as they are called, namely, its share of customs duties collected by member states, a portion of the VAT collected by member states and a fixed percentage of the gross national income.

Is this legislation about crimes against member states which would affect those areas of national income-gathering that would indirectly impact on the portion of their national incomes contributed to the EU? Is that what we are talking about? So it is not just the misappropriation of funds obtained from the EU, for whatever purpose, but clearly applies to broader areas of activity such as VAT, fraud or whatever, which affects member states. Is it our understanding that that is also fraud as it affects the financial interests of the European Union because it affects the moneys available to member states from which a portion is given to the European Union? In that context, I am conscious of the role of the EPPO which will only begin its operations this month. That is probably why the Bill is before the House now. The EPPO investigates and prosecutes crimes against the EU’s financial interests, including fraud concerning EU funds of over €10,000 and cross-border VAT fraud cases involving damages above €10 million. It is targeted at particularly high-end fraud, with small issues being handled domestically. Up to now, only national authorities could investigate and prosecute these crimes and they cannot act beyond their borders. The EPPO will have a European delegated prosecutor in each member state. Ireland has opted-out of participating in the EPPO, as did the UK originally. Obviously, 248 5 November 2020 the UK will not be opting-out of anything any longer. Ireland opted-out on the grounds that the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, is independent of Government and of the police and it being part of an EPPO might undermine its independence. We are a common law jurisdiction. Is it the ongoing position of the Government that we will be opting out of the EPPO? Is there any intention to opt-in in the future? How is it envisaged the DPP will handle cases covered by this legislation in the absence of having an official delegated prosecutor within its ranks?

In 2016, the EU’s fight against fraud annual report found 1,410 instances of fraud involving some €391 million. I recently read the regulatory impact analysis on this Bill, published by the Department of Justice, arising out of which I have a question. It states that the EU Commission estimates that implementing the directive would result in a saving of €477 million across the EU. The Department’s analysis is that it is not possible to quantify what portion of that €477 million would result from Ireland’s transposition of the instrument. I ask the Minister of State to address that point. On what basis did the Commission reach the figure of €477 million and why can a country-by-country breakdown not be given, even in very general terms? The Com- mission’s fight against fraud report gives a national breakdown. If it has a means of estimating an overall figure, surely it would be able to estimate a breakdown by country. It would be of benefit to know what kind of money could be saved by the passage of this Bill into law. I am wondering why there is no country-by-country breakdown by the Commission or Ireland. Is it about protecting the reputations of certain countries? Is it the case that the further east one goes the further into the wild west one goes and so on? I would be grateful if the Minister of State could address that issue as well.

05/11/2020VV00200Acting Chairman (Senator Victor Boyhan): As no other Senators are offering, I call the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, to respond to the debate.

05/11/2020VV00300Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne): I thank Sena- tors for the support expressed for the Bill, which while technical is important. I thank them for their contributions and the points raised, some of which were very interesting and relevant as I expected. I am glad the Bill was commenced in the Seanad and that adequate time is provided in that regard. It was suggested by my Department that the Seanad be used in this manner as much as possible. There are a number of pieces of legislation in the Department of Justice that have fallen behind schedule. There is no reason in the world they cannot be brought before the Seanad first, with adequate time provided for scrutiny.

While the Bill is a relatively short and technical Bill, the importance of this area should not be understated. These crimes are not victimless. We all pay for them. Updating the legislation to reflect fully the new requirements arising out of the directive is important to keep pace with new behaviours and is an important step in showing our commitment to dealing with this type of illegal behaviour. I do not propose to deal with all of the issues raised but I will touch on some of the points raised by a number of Senators.

The main point raised by Senator Gallagher was that a number of states have not signed up to the EPPO. Most states have transposed it. Ireland is late in transposing it. It is my responsibility to get through as quickly as possible the EU legislative matters that have been held up, but with due consideration and assessment, which is what I am trying to do in terms of the various Bills I am bringing forward.

Brexit will cause serious difficulties. There is no question about that. I know Senator Ó Donnghaile raised this issue as well. We still hope there will be an agreement between the EU 249 Seanad Éireann and the UK that can address all of these concerns. If there is no such agreement, the fallback will be to try to agree a bilateral arrangement with the UK, although I hope that will not be needed. If that cannot happen, we will go back to international conventions, which would cause serious difficulties, whether that is in family law, crime or any other area. I hope we do not end up in that position because it would be serious and difficult for us to deal with.

Senator Ward raised a number of important issues, such as minimum mandatory sentences. Some of the decisions of the Supreme Court in recent times seem to be against minimum mandatory sentencing. I am not a particular fan of minimum mandatory sentences. While they give out a clear message, in many cases they catch not the serious players but the people the serious players are taking advantage of. Even the mandatory sentences in place now are often more honoured in the breach than the observance by the courts these days. I will seriously consider the matter, however. We need to send out a clear and strong message that this is a serious offence. Deception and fraud are not taken as seriously as they should be by some people, including criminals. This is certainly not a victimless crime. Outside the scope of this legislation, we have recently seen that some young people are using their bank accounts to effectively carry out fraud, perhaps without even realising what they are doing. They are seriously damaging their futures as a result.

This is the tenth iteration of amendments to this Bill. It is an issue on which I have always been strong, even as a practising barrister. People often spend a great deal of time finding out exactly what the law is. This can cause problems with the Garda Síochána as well. Not only do we need to see greater accessibility to and consolidation of legislation, I also want to see a greater emphasis placed on plain English. An awful lot could be done on that in this country in various departments and in terms of law in particular. Other jurisdictions have done some good work around this and it is something that is absolutely needed here. As we know, ignorance of the law is no defence but one should be able to find out what the law is. For this reason, I want to see greater work done on that.

Some of my comments have touched on certain of the matters correctly raised by Senator Bacik. I do not know why this issue was not dealt with in the 2018 Act and I acknowledge that we are late in transposing this directive. In my role as Minister of State at the Department of Justice with responsibility for law reform, I have a focus on transposing EU legislation and doing so on time. I intend to use the Seanad for a considered debate on these technical Bills. The Seanad is an appropriate place for doing that.

Codification is needed in various areas, including sex offences. There are a numberof lacunas in this area. I am familiar with one from when I practised criminal law, namely, that nearly all cases of rape are dealt with in the High Court but rape with a digit is dealt with in the Circuit Court. That is an anomaly but those kinds of anomalies are increasing as a result of the piecemeal approach we have taken to these offences. I agree that codification is very important.

We are strong on the issue of due process but, again, the voices of victims have not been heard in the way they should have been heard. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy McEntee, she has made some strong statements around that and she intends to introduce reform to give victims a greater say and role in criminal processes.

I addressed Senator Ó Donnghaile’s main concern about what will happen if an agreement is not reached with Brexit. It is a serious situation and the Senator raised an important point. The guillotine is coming down on the negotiations so I hope that an agreement can be reached. 250 5 November 2020 Otherwise, we will find ourselves in a very serious situation.

Senator Mullen raised some important points. I do not have answers to his questions on the European Commission, the €477 million of savings or the breakdown but I will endeavour to get that information for him. The main reason we have not opted into the EPPO is that there are issues with exclusion of evidence. The courts here would be required to accept evidence that would probably otherwise be excluded under the Constitution. Our view is that the Constitu- tion and the due processes provided therein must be protected. Obviously, it is always possible to opt in but it would be very difficult to see that happening.

Detailed consideration will be given to the Bill on Committee Stage. I thank Senators for their contributions to this debate. If any Member has any issue with the Bill that he or she would like to discuss outside the Chamber, I am happy to do so.

Question put and agreed to.

05/11/2020XX00250Acting Chairman (Senator Victor Boyhan): When is it proposed to take Committee Stage?

05/11/2020XX00275Senator Barry Ward: Next Tuesday.

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 10 November 2020.

Sitting suspended at 2.30 p.m. and resumed at 3.15 p.m.

05/11/2020HHH00100Biodiversity: Motion

05/11/2020HHH00200Acting Chairman (Senator Ned O’Sullivan): I welcome the Minister of State. It is nice to have her back in the room with us.

05/11/2020HHH00300Senator Róisín Garvey: I move:

That Seanad Éireann:

endorses:

- Dáil Éireann’s declaration of a climate and biodiversity emergency on 9 May 2019, and the steps that have been taken since that date at local, national and Euro- pean levels to address the ongoing emergency;

acknowledges that:

- nature and biodiversity, meaning the diversity of living things within ecosystems, are deteriorating globally at rates unprecedented in human history, thus steadi- ly destroying the essential basis for our health, sustenance, prosperity and quality of life;

- scientists have warned that a sixth mass extinction event, labelled the ‘Anthro- pocene Extinction’, may currently be under way;

251 Seanad Éireann - nature and biodiversity provide essential life supports to humans in a variety of ways, including through pollination of crops, regulation of water, air and soil quality, regulation of climate, provision of resources such as medicines and building materials, mitigation of natural disasters such as flooding, maintenance of options for the future, and opportunities for learning, inspiration, aesthetic appreciation, spiritual development and the improvement of mental and physical health;

- nature is essential for human existence and happiness, that natures’ contributions are difficult or impossible to replace, and that the future of humanity is insepa- rable from the future of nature;

- the decline of nature and biodiversity is primarily due to human drivers, including changes in land use such as agricultural expansion and urban growth, the direct exploitation of organisms via unsustainable harvesting, logging, hunting and fishing, the impact of climate change on species distribution and ecosystem structures, and its exacerbating effects upon the other drivers, pollution of the air, water and soil, and invasions of alien plant and animal species;

- the maintenance and improvement of current habitat conditions and natural heritage is as important as the generation of new ones; notes with concern that:

- globally, around one million animal and plant species are already threatened with extinction, many within decades;

- the average abundance of native species in most major land-based habitats has fallen by at least 20 per cent, while at least 680 vertebrate species have been driven to extinction by humanity, with more than 40 per cent of amphibian species, almost 33 per cent of reef-forming corals, more than one-third of marine mammals, and approximately 10 per cent of insects threatened with extinction;

- biodiversity loss is not only an environmental issue, but a developmental, economic, security, social and moral issue as well, with current negative trends in biodiversity undermining progress towards the United Nation’s Sustainable Development Goals in the areas of poverty, hunger, health, water, cities, climate, oceans and land;

- a lack of diversity, especially genetic diversity, poses a serious risk to global food security by undermining the resilience of agriculture to threats such as pests, pathogens and climate change;

- land degradation has reduced the productivity of nearly 23 per cent of the global land surface, while pollinator loss increases the chances of crop failure;

- up to 400 million tons of heavy metals, solvents, toxic sludge and other industrial waste enter the world’s rivers and oceans annually, while fertilisers entering coastal ecosystems have created over 400 dead zones covering a combined area of almost one quarter of a million square kilometres;

- the destruction of natural environments, in conjunction with poaching and wildlife trafficking practices, increases the likelihood of animal-to-human transmission of zoonotic pathogens such as Ebola, Rabies, Swine Flu, Avian Flu, SARS, and pos- 252 5 November 2020 sibly SARS-CoV-2 (Coronavirus); recognises that:

- most Irish habitats listed on the European Union Habitats Directive are in unfavourable status and almost half are demonstrating ongoing declines, while none of Ireland’s grassland, heathland, bog, mire or fen habitats are in favourable status;

- almost 40 per cent of our active raised bogs in Ireland’s Special Areas of Con- servation network have been lost in the past twenty years;

- of 202 regularly occurring species of bird on this island, 37 have been placed on the red conservation list, including the curlew, corncrake, lapwing, barn owl and golden eagle, while a further 91 are on the amber list, including the robin, starling, swallow, swift, cormorant, gannet and puffin;

- 30 per cent of our bee species and 18 per cent of our butterfly species are threatened with extinction;

- according to the Irish Wildlife Trust, 48 of our marine species face extinction and require greater legal protection, including the basking shark, angel shark, Atlan- tic salmon, sunfish, turbot, halibut, purple sea urchin and kaleidoscope jellyfish;

- seismic testing, occurring at acoustic levels 100,000 times more intense than a jet engine, has regularly occurred over the past decade during the exploration process for oil and gas reserves in Irish waters, causing untold damage to whales, dolphins and porpoises by damaging their food sources, such as plankton, and causing displacement of species in some cases;

- invasive animal species such as the zebra mussel and the grey squirrel, and invasive plant species such as giant hogweed and Japanese knotweed, pose a growing threat to our native flora and fauna;

- biodiversity provides vital ecosystem services, free of cost, to one of our most important economic sectors, agriculture, with the value of nutrient cycling by soil organisms alone estimated to be worth €1 billion a year;

- the direct annual value of insects via pollination of human food crops has been estimated as at least €53 million in Ireland, while the indirect value provided through pollination of forage crops such as clover and the maintenance of a functioning ecosystem, is likely substantially higher;

- alongside the intrinsic value of an intact marine environment, it has been estimated that recreational services provided by Irish marine ecosystems are worth €1.6 billion in value to the economy, that fisheries and aquaculture are worth €664 million, carbon absorption services €819 million, waste assimilation services €317 million, scientific and educational services €11.5 million, coastal defence services of €11.5 million, and seaweed harvesting €4 million;

- in many parts of Ireland, whether on their own or supported by the State, farmers have led the way on projects to protect biodiversity, habitats and species, including farmers involved in the Burren Programme in Clare, the Hen Harrier Project in six 253 Seanad Éireann special protection areas, the Pearl Mussel Project in eight different river catchments, and the Biodiversity Regeneration in a Dairying Environment (BRIDE) project in the Bride Valley, Co. Cork;

- in a 2015 survey, Ireland’s natural, unspoilt environment was cited by 86 per cent of visiting tourist respondents as a reason to visit Ireland, and that in 2018, out- of-State tourism generated €5.6 billion for the Irish economy;

calls on the Government to act upon the Programme for Government’s commitments regarding biodiversity as soon as possible, and to:

- review the protection, including legislative protection processes, of our natural heritage and significant land use changes;

- ensure that the State can protect nature and enforce existing statutory protections of designated features of conservation interest by providing sufficient support to the National Parks and Wildlife Service and reviewing the Service’s remit and structure;

- establish a Citizens’ Assembly to examine and propose solutions to the biodiversity emergency, thus bringing the creativity and ingenuity of our citizenry to bear upon this crisis;

- ensure that environmental policy is strategy-led and biodiversity-focused by developing a new National Pollinator Plan, supporting the collection of biodiversity data, developing a National Soils Strategy, completing a national hedgerow survey, and carrying out a baseline biodiversity survey on Irish farms;

- ensure that farmers are recognised as the custodians of our land, and are financially supported in playing a vital role in maintaining and restoring habitats and utilising ecologically sound practices;

- seek to ensure the Common Agricultural Policy rewards farmers for seques- tering carbon, creating habitats and restoring biodiversity, improving water and air quality, producing clean energy, and developing schemes that support results-based outcomes;

- secure improvements in soil health and water quality by delivering an ambitious reduction in the use of inorganic nitrogen fertiliser over the next decade;

- advocate for a fair system of eligibility conditionality, under the reform of Good Agricultural and Environmental Condition rules, recognising that farmers should not be unfairly penalised for maintaining land that contributes to biodiversity principles, and thus allowing farmers to accrue benefits from managing land as wetlands or native habitats;

- implement the EU’s Farm to Fork and Biodiversity strategies in order to increase environmental and biodiversity benefits to our economy and society, including the ambitious reductions in respect of pesticides and fertilisers;

- conserve and expand a diverse range of natural habitats by developing a Na- tional Land Use Plan, incentivising the rewetting of carbon-rich soils, supporting the 254 5 November 2020 planting or rewilding of native woodland on every farm, and adopting a close-to- nature, continuous cover approach to forestry so as to ultimately create permanent biodiverse forests containing trees of all ages;

- develop comprehensive legislation for the identification, designation and management of Marine Protected Areas in Irish territorial waters, aiming to ensure these areas cover 30 per cent of our waters by 2030.”.

I welcome the Minister of State. It is great that I have lived to see the appointment of a Minister of State with responsibility for biodiversity. It gladdens my heart because I thought we would never see it. It is very exciting to have a Minister of State with such a responsibility in the House. This is a momentous occasion for me because I have been talking about biodiversity for approximately 30 years. It gives me hope.

Biodiversity means life and difference, and it concerns the different life forms and the importance of having variety. If we did not have diversity, one might imagine a Seanad with 60 Róisín Garveys and how exciting or boring it would be. Nobody would get in a word edgeways.

05/11/2020HHH00400Senator Victor Boyhan: Do not start.

05/11/2020HHH00500Senator Róisín Garvey: It is what we are looking at when we consider biodiversity in the plant and animal world. There are very few varieties and we see the same thing over and over. During this debate, I hope to go through some of the reasons it is so important we do not go to 60 Róisín Garveys or one type of tree or animal left on the planet. It is what we face in this emergency we are discussing today.

I will start from the ground up, or even beneath the ground. I will mention the soil beneath our feet because sometimes we forget the importance of healthy soil. Even building a house we start with a good foundation. There are major issues with soil quality in the country. One teaspoon of healthy soil contains more microorganisms than there are people on the planet. Of course, that is in healthy soil. Together, these microorganisms break down all the rotting debris and turn it into good humus. They give us the nutrients and bacteria we need for our own food and for animals. To survive under the ground, the microorganisms need to be sheltered which is why they need something to keep them safe, no more than humans do. The microorganisms below ground need food and shelter just like us. Keeping the soil covered at all times is a good start because without healthy soil one gets poor drainage and increased run-off, of which we have seen much. People were talking about it in Cork this morning and it is happening all over the country. We have major issues with flooding and run-off and biodiversity is the solution to sort out this crisis.

I had the good fortune of studying organic horticulture in the Organic College in Dromcol- logher with Jim McNamara many moons ago. He said that one feeds the soil, not the plant. Only with healthy soil do we get healthy plants, which includes all our food. Nobody can argue the difference between a healthy carrot or tomato grown from healthy soil and one grown in poor soil pumped with chemicals. If there was biodiversity in the soil, people would not need those chemicals and could grow their food naturally. What we need right now is a variety of grasses because to get healthy soil we have to have a mixture of grasses. Most grass swards are dominated by perennial ryegrass and some clover if one is lucky. With just two plant species in a mix, the modern grass sward has a lower number of insect species and other invertebrates than grass swards in the past. These modern swards also require higher levels of nutrients to achieve

255 Seanad Éireann higher farm productivity. This leads to the less aggressive species of plants being outcompeted, with a subsequent loss in biodiversity. As always in this Chamber, we must focus on actions and solutions. We must focus on what can be done and what is being done.

I must mention an amazing man called Donal Sheehan. Just a few years ago he put out 40 chairs in his local hall to start a project called Farming with Nature. Some 140 people turned up to that meeting so they had to sit on each other’s laps and were standing all around the place. One would not get away with that now. All the farmers in the area wanted to take part in this and be involved but the project had to turn them down as only 42 could take part. They then discovered there was only funding for 27 farmers. However, all 42 farmers agreed that they would split the money between them even though there was only money for 27 because they were so eager to get involved and do the right thing. What they do, simply, is grow a variety of grasses, which sorts out loads of problems. Farmers of every kind are involved, including small farmers with 15 ha and those with 400 ha. They might have ten cattle, 40 cattle, dry stock, weanlings or they might be dairy farmers. All types of farmers were involved. It is a good example of what can be done on all kinds of farms. It was named the Biodiversity Regeneration In a Dairying Environment, BRIDE, project after the lovely River Bride, which is a tributary of the beautiful River Blackwater.

The BRIDE project uses a multispecies grassland mix, which contains several grass species, including Timothy and Cocksfoot, and several wildflower species such as plantain, red and white clover and yarrow to benefit pollinators and a wide range of insects. The benefits of this scheme, though it sounds so simple, are huge. The inclusion of a mix of high clover will result in less use of nitrogen fertiliser. Many farmers have to spend lots of money on fertiliser but clover is a natural nitrogen fixer. Root systems of different species are important as well. This is interesting because soil loss occurs when there are heavy rains, but if there are lots of different types of grasses, they will have different roots with different depths and they hold onto that soil. They also help hold onto the nutrients when they are spread and they go into the soil and feed it.

This same principle will mean a higher tolerance of different climate conditions. Now we often get a month’s worth of rain in two days and farmers are losing some of their topsoil as a result. More biodiversity underground improves soil health. It is a symbiotic relationship between the environment above and below ground. A healthier mix of grasses also enriches the variety of flowers, which then attract insects, including butterflies and predatory insects. Predatory insects sound scary but they are brilliant. In Dromcollogher, we saw that if one has flowers that attract predatory insects, those insects will take care of the aphids, greenflies and all the other insects farmers often have to spray to keep away. If they have the right flowers and biodiversity around their farms, they will not have to deal with that problem.

That brings me to pollinators. With healthy varieties of flowers and grasses, we get a healthy variety of pollinators. We all know their job is so important that no food would be grown in this country if we did not take care of them. That is it. We will not be able to grow food if we do not get this right. I will draw attention to another great solution, that of the Irish Seed Savers Association. The main objective of this organisation is to conserve Ireland’s very special and threatened plant genetic resource. I have been fortunate enough to visit the organisation and to get seeds from it. I do not have a green finger but if one takes any of this group’s seeds and put them in good soil, one will get food. It is not a big challenge if one has the right seeds in the right place. This group’s work focuses on the preservation of heirloom and heritage food crops that are suitable for Ireland’s unique growing conditions, which makes it easier to grow its seeds. The Irish Seed Savers Association maintains the country’s public seed bank, which 256 5 November 2020 includes more than 600 varieties of seeds which are not commercially available.

We all know about the big multinationals that are producing seeds which will never reseed, meaning farmers cannot save their own seed and have to buy it. I remember being involved in Genetic Concern many years ago. A doctor from University Hospital Limerick joined the campaign because the people in her village had never had to save seed until a certain big company, which I will not mention today, came along and gave free seed to the farmers without telling them that, when it came time to save the seed, there would be no seed to save. This is why I wanted to mention the Irish Seed Savers Association. What it does is so important. We must not give power away to the multinationals as regards how we grow our food.

I will give the Minister some examples, although I do not have up-to-date ones. In 2017, Ireland, the land of the spud, imported 72,000 tonnes of potatoes, 44,000 tonnes of which came from Britain. We imported 47,000 tonnes of onions, 29,000 tonnes of tomatoes, 23,000 tonnes of cabbage and 15,000 tonnes of lettuce. These are probably the five easiest things to grow in this country. The total value of these imports was €175 million. This is money we sent out of this country. I raise this issue because, the better our biodiversity, the easier it is to grow this food here in Ireland. It is madness. We have to make it easier to grow food and without biodiversity that becomes more of a challenge.

I will now move from our fields to our hedges. Ireland was once entirely forested. I remember my father telling me when I was a child that Brian Ború could go from one end of Ireland to the other without putting a foot on the ground. Sadly, that is not true today. A great lecturer from Macroom, Ted Cook, told me that, when the trees were cut, not only did the humans have to take shelter but the animals, insects and birds had to flee. To where did they flee? They fled to our hedgerows. We have the best hedgerow system in all of Europe but if we do not manage it properly that will no longer be the case. Living in a small area in which the roads are narrow, I believe there is a need for proper hedge management and hedge trimming, but I do not agree with hedge butchery. It is really important that the Government come together to introduce supports for proper hedge management. Ted Cook says it very well when he says that a hedgerow is like a high-rise block of flats with different species and types of animals living on every level. That really struck home with me. He says that if one wipes out the top layers or butchers 2 m in, one wipes out the habitat of all of those animals and plants. This is something with which we need to deal. It is controversial but it must still be done. I do not ask that they be let grow wild everywhere, but we have to find a balance. Nature is all about balance.

If I am to move on from hedges, I have to go to the bogs. Some 21% of our land is peatland. That represents approximately 1.5 million ha, 80% of which is degraded. These bogs emit more than 10% of all our country’s greenhouse gases. It would cost €1.5 billion to restore them. The Republic of Ireland has 8% of the entire world’s blanket bogs. We are standing on a world-class ecosystem, or at least what could be one. Peatlands store four times more carbon than tropical rainforests. Let us take that seriously and prioritise our bogs.

I did not really get the whole bog thing as a child. I was reared cutting turf and making gróigeáns. It was back-breaking work. We were given out to and were not allowed mess because we had to get the turf in. I only got it when visiting new projects such as Scohaboy bog in Cloughjordan, which has developed into an amazing place and amenity for local people. The farmers flocked together with Gearóid Ó Foighil and the community to create this amazing space. I now value bogs in a whole new way.

257 Seanad Éireann I will move onto forests and talk about a friend of mine who recycled 500,000 cans 30 years ago. We were talking about biodiversity 30 years ago. He used the money from these cans to buy native woodlands and planted trees with children from different schools. He planted the trees with the children in the schools, and I visited the schools with him. The children kept asking why, if trees are so important, are the Government and the grown-ups not planting lots of them. I thought that was a great question. However, now I see that all Government and Op- position parties are in agreement that there is a biodiversity and climate emergency, and that now is the time to act to make the solutions I have mentioned not an exception but the norm.

05/11/2020LLL00200Senator Vincent P. Martin: I second the motion. I welcome the attendance and participation in this debate of my party colleague, the Minister of State, Senator Hackett. I thank Senator Garvey for moving the motion.

In 1972, a young research assistant made a list of natural and semi-natural habitats in County Kildare with the objective of selecting habitats for preservation. That research assistant, Roger Goodwillie, who then worked for An Foras Forbartha, which is now the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, made a number of interesting observations. Back in 1972, referring to my constituency, Mr. Goodwillie stated that bird life in the area was rich and it supported a high population of grouse. He observed oak wood with a rich flora and abundant bird life, including species such as the nightjar, rich wild fowl feeding and a breeding area for many water birds. He also noted that the area supported a huge number of snipe. Almost 50 years later, bird species, such as the curlew, that were once common in my constituency have all but disap- peared. I care about the whole island of Ireland and beyond but I have particular knowledge of my constituency, which is why I have made reference to it. I hope the rest of Ireland does not feel left out because the issue is a national and global problem.

In Ireland, the curlew, for example, has suffered a massive decline of 96% since the 1980s, with fewer than a handful of native curlews remaining in County Kildare. Species of water birds such as lapwing and snipe are already in danger of meeting the same fate. They live a treacherous existence as they are forced to the very edge of once ecologically rich habitats. However, we have begun to take steps to address the issue. The curlew task force, which was established in 2017, and the subsequent action plans under the NPWS, have made tentative progress. As we know, the NPWS does excellent work but it is chronically under-resourced. Voluntary organisations, such as Birdwatch Kildare, have made valiant efforts over the years to over the years to safeguard our tiny breeding curlew population in the county. They have also taken practical steps to provide nesting spaces for swifts, which is another threatened species. Volunteers across the county, from Johnstownbridge to Athy, have been implementing swift conservation measures.

Butterfly Conservation Ireland, proudly based in County Kildare, does tremendous work, managing the habitat of rare species of butterfly, such as the dark green fritillary and marsh fritillary. In Kildare, of the 22 sites originally referenced in the 1972 work, eight are designated as special areas of conservation today under the EU habitats directive. These include the beautiful, unique Pollardstown Fen, which is fed by an alkaline spring and the Curragh aquifer, and Ballynafagh Lake near Prosperous in north Kildare. What is missing is habitats of scale with rich biodiversity potential that could support wildlife and bring back species lost to Ireland. If we do not take action now and designate further sites throughout the country, not just in the west and north west, our children will never hear the call of the breeding curlew. Ireland is a winter refuge for many migrating water birds, but these too have suffered declines in recent years. Researchers at the Kildare branch of BirdWatch Ireland estimate that wading birds such 258 5 November 2020 as lapwing and golden plover have declined by 19% in the past ten years. It is not just water birds. Countryside birds such as yellowhammer suffered massive declines and the corn bunting is extinct.

A recently published CSO report entitled Environmental Indicators 2020 states that in 2018, Ireland had the third lowest proportion of total land area in the EU 28 designated as terrestrial special protected areas, SPAs, under the EU birds directive, at 6.1%, and the eighth lowest proportion of total land area designated as terrestrial special areas of conservation, SAC, under the EU habitats directive, at 13.1%. That is a cause of great concern and must be corrected. One way of approaching it is to increase the designated area to at least match the EU average. It should include both terrestrial and marine habitats. Another proposal would be to ensure that management plans are put in place for our designated protection areas to ensure no further loss of biodiversity and to reverse the declines we have seen.

John Hume is often rightly referred to as having been pivotal to the peace process. He used and invoked the EU when he stated that we all live in a country called Europe and that we should deal with our strengths and commonalities. I am confident that we will call on the EU again for protection and strength going forward. The laws are in place but they must be complied with. I refer to the habitats directive, the birds directive and the water framework directive. Article 12 of the habitats directive requires the creation of a system of strict protection for certain species. Member states are obliged to take requisite measures to establish a system of strict protection for the animal species listed in that annexe, including bats and many other animals. There is an obligation on member states. The article prohibits the deliberate disturbance of these species, particularly during breeding, rearing, hibernation and migration. It also prohibits the deterioration or destruction of breeding sites or resting places.

The European Court of Justice has issued many judgments that oblige the State to take action in respect of this matter. A member state fails to fulfil its obligations under Article 12(1) (b) and (d) of the directive if it does not take all requisite specific measures to prevent the deliberate disturbance of the animal species concerned during their breeding period or allows the deterioration or destruction of their breeding sites. There is a significant volume of EU law on this matter. The courts are listening. One will get a good hearing in court in respect of these matters. Responsibility begins in an individual capacity but we must have compliance with national and EU law.

Sinn Féin has tabled an amendment to the motion. I welcome its concern for, and love of, bees, although obviously not the B-Specials. Of course, we should protect the native Irish honey bee. I have spoken to the Minister of State, Deputy Hackett, about that. The specific remit of the Native Irish Honey Bee Society is to protect, preserve and promote the native Irish honey bee. It is a rare strain of bee. The dark European strain adapts best to our climate. The two national associations, namely, the Federation of Irish Beekeepers Associations and the Irish Beekeepers Association are 100% on board. In Kildare North and Kildare South, they are among 20 organisations that have signed a voluntary pact to preserve and protect the native Irish honey bee.

05/11/2020NNN00100Senator Victor Boyhan: I welcome the Minister of State and I thank Senators O’Reilly, Garvey and Martin for proposing this motion. I would not have expected anything less from those Senators. They have a great slogan and I have a lot of time for green politics, and for the Green Party for that matter. The slogan is “Vote Green, get Green”. I think that is an important maxim, not one of which we should lose sight. I try to apply it to everything I do here. 259 Seanad Éireann The Green Party is in government and that is important. The people elected representatives from the Green Party, gave them a strong mandate and expected them to go into government. I think that going into government was the right thing to do. However, the Green Party is in government to do something and that is to drive this green agenda, as they have done with other things. I refer to sustainability and sustainable development goals, SDGs. I met the leader of the Green Party on Tuesday, and I was particularly taken aback when he gave me this little gift of an SDGs lapel badge, because I have never had one before. When I left that meeting, I was encouraged to go back and check out SDGs.

I acknowledge that part of the agreement to be in government was that there would be a strong focus on the SDGs and that we would be mindful of that aspect in all our Oireachtas joint committees. We are very conscious of that, and we have discussed the SDGs at the Joint Com- mittee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Joint Committee on Agriculture and the Marine. That strong focus has, therefore, taken effect and people need to be constantly reminded of that. I thank the Green Party and its representatives for that.

I am not surprised by this motion. I am more interested in the final part, which calls on the Government to act on its programme for Government. With all due respect to the Minister of State and her colleagues here, in local government and in Europe - because we have Green Party representatives in Europe and that is also great - I have to say that it is incumbent on all of us to pursue the green agenda. The leader of the Green Party, the Minister for Environment, Climate and Communications and Minister for Transport, Deputy Eamon Ryan, referred to not losing sight of that at the meeting I had with him. It is possible to be distracted when in government by many things.

In many parts of Ireland, whether on their own or supported by the State, farmers have led the way in projects to protect biodiversity and species. I want to ensure, as I know the Minister of State does, that farmers are recognised as the custodians of our land and are financially supported in playing their vital role in maintaining and restoring habitats and utilising practices that are ecologically sound. The Minister of State really understands that aspect more than anybody else because she is a farmer and works on the land. I want our Government to ensure that the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, rewards farmers for sequestrating carbon, creating habitats and restoring biodiversity, improving water and air quality, producing clean energy and developing schemes that support results-based outcomes.

The Minister of State and colleagues will also know that we are now planning for CAP policy post 2020. There is a great emphasis on environmental outcomes in that context, and that is very positive. It has taken a long journey of more than 20 or 30 years to get to that point, but the importance of those outcomes has now been recognised. Farmers, however, should not be unfairly penalised for maintaining the land that contributes to diversity principles. I refer to allowing farmers to accrue some form of benefits, financial or otherwise, if they are proactive in protecting and developing wetlands and native habitats. That is important.

What does the Green New Deal say about farmers? European farmers and fishermen are key to managing this transition, but they want a just transition. I acknowledge the just transition group within the Green Party, whose members I have found exceptionally helpful and engaging regarding environmental issues I have had to pursue. It is a really practical advocacy group, as well as being involved and immersed in politics. The members of the group need to be saluted and recognised. They are not antagonistic, but they are concerned and they should be encouraged and supported in civic society and politics. 260 5 November 2020 The farm to fork strategy will of course strengthen efforts to tackle climate change, and that has been repeatedly acknowledged by the Minister of State. It will also help to protect the environment and preserve our biodiversity. However, the European green deal sets out the farm- to-fork targets. They include reducing fertiliser by 20%, reducing antibiotics in animals and reducing pesticide use. There are knock-on effects because when one reduces some of these items, one reduces yields. That is not a bad thing. We are over-producing in some areas, but we must acknowledge there will be a knock-on effect in a reduction in yields. I would prefer to have reduced yields of higher quality, but there are financial implications. One thing that has emerged from the research by the European Commission on the Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, is that the income of farmers across Europe is approximately 40% of the income received by people in the commercial and industrial sectors. There is a drop in incomes and we must acknowledge that.

In terms of biodiversity, we want higher diversity in our natural landscapes and organic production. I do not doubt any of this from the Green Party as it is very important. I also wish to speak in support of the amendment from Sinn Féin, and I presume Senator Boylan will speak on that. I commit myself to supporting it. To refer to a few more issues, there is some important legislation coming down the track - we shall be known by our deeds and not our words. There is the sustainable water environmental abstraction Bill, which has enormous implications for agriculture and the building and construction sector, particularly regarding concrete. People have wells and others are in local community co-operative water schemes. In many cases, the cumulative effect of two or three sources of drawing or abstracting water will be a challenge. We will have to face up to that and we must support farmers in that regard. There is also a marine Bill coming down the track, which is important. There have been, and continue to be challenges, in the forestry sector. The Minister of State has made a start with her Bill, but there are other issues.

What is this motion about? From my reading of it, we want more funding for the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and for farmers to enable them to implement green practices, to create biodiversity habitats on their land and to pay them not to develop wetlands or native habitats. I support the call for the establishment of a citizens’ assembly, a national pollinator plan, a national soil strategy and a national land use plan to conserve and expand native woodlands. We want to cut down on nitrogen fertiliser and pesticide use, and we want to have a national hedgerow survey and a baseline diversity survey. All of this is admirable and I support it. The Green Party is in government. People voted Green to get green. It is early days for the party and I hope it will continue the momentum that is required because it will be distracted in many ways down the line. I sincerely wish the party well.

05/11/2020OOO00200Senator Timmy Dooley: I wish to share time with Senator Malcolm Byrne.

I welcome the Minister of State. Fianna Fáil welcomes this opportunity to discuss solutions to the ongoing biodiversity crisis and will support the motion proposed by the Green Party. I compliment my colleagues on it. The rate of global change in nature during the past 50 years is unprecedented in human history. Nature across most of the globe has now been significantly altered by human activity, with the great majority of ecosystems and biodiversity showing rapid decline. Globally, 75% of the land surface is significantly altered. Some 66% of the ocean area is experiencing increasing impacts and over 85% of the wetlands have been lost.

These global changes have many reverberations in Ireland, where most Irish habitats have unfavourable status. Bee and butterfly species are in decline and many marine species are now 261 Seanad Éireann reportedly at risk of extinction. It is welcome that the Government has moved in several areas to provide additional supports to protect an enhanced biodiversity. These include moves to establish a new wildlife crime unit in the NPWS, progressing the final report of an independent advisory group on marine protected areas and providing funding in both the July stimulus and budget 2021. As the motion outlines, the programme for Government also sets out a number of additional actions which are required over the Government’s term in office to address the crisis further. It is vital that the commitments contained in the programme for Government are completed as soon as possible. In May 2019, Ireland became only the second country in the world to declare a biodiversity emergency, on foot of a Fianna Fáil amendment that I had the pleasure to propose in my time in the Dáil. In moving this amendment, we recognised that the national biodiversity action plan did not go far enough and that further action was needed at the time.

We also called for the establishment of a Citizens’ Assembly on biodiversity loss. I was very pleased to see such a commitment in the programme for Government that was agreed by the three parties because it will not be by an act of this House that biodiversity will be protected but through the sustained effort of all citizens across the State. It will not be done by academics sitting in isolation, identifying the problem and directing the custodians of the land to deliver; it will be done in harmony with them. The farmers are the first people who need to be consulted and their concerns and views taken on board.

I come from a farming family from a small farm in a part of the country where the land is not considered to be especially good. There is a very significant mix of species there, from rushes to heather, wet land to dry land, trees, shrubs and hedgerows. Until such time as we come to appreciate that kind of land and remove the burden of production that has become a feature of modern farming, we must provide the appropriate resources to the custodians of this type of land rather than continuing to reward those who focus only on the production of grass, grain and corn through unnatural, forced means to meet our food requirements. It will have to be done in a holistic way. We must look at the way we consume and waste food. This will not be done in isolation. I hope we can have such a discussion in a Citizens’ Assembly where we bring all sides together rather than look at the issue in isolation. This is a significant problem, which is part of our culture of overproduction based on an insatiable demand for more and more products and greater production that, sadly, ends up dumped in landfill.

05/11/2020PPP00200Senator Malcolm Byrne: Like my colleagues and others in the House, I strongly support this motion. The Government needs to be ambitious. The programme for Government sets out a certain level of ambition that does not fall only on the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, even though I am certain she is more than capable of leading the charge, but on the entire Govern- ment and all Departments. It falls on all of us and, as my colleague, Senator Dooley, said, on society at large. We must all play our part in ensuring that in the future we continue to have the diversity of species we currently have.

Senator Martin spoke very eloquently about the birds. I will also speak about the bees. We must recognise the considerable amount of good work that has been done on the all-Ireland pollinator plan by local authorities and Tidy Towns committees, which operate on a voluntary basis right around the country. The Minister of State might elaborate on the new all-Ireland pollinator plan. I hope the targets in it are much more ambitious and build on the success of voluntary groups, local authorities and everyone else in order that we can all buy in to the important job of saving the bees.

One of the positive aspects of the motion is that, as Senator Boyhan stated, it recognises 262 5 November 2020 the very important role farmers and the agricultural community have to play in contributing towards the protection of the environment and habitats. Farmers should not be penalised when they manage lands to protect native habitats or wetlands. In fact, we need to incentivise farmers and landowners to do that. We must support farmers when they engage in regenerative practices. One of the issues we really need to address, and especially in respect of carbon sinks, is allowing farmers and landowners to own carbon credits to allow them to gain a form of income through acting in an environmentally responsible manner. Farmers are some of the strongest guardians of the environment but they want the transition to be just and they want what they do to be sustainable. I firmly believe that if we give a system whereby farmers are able to own and trade carbon credits, it will help the sustainability of our environment and the sustainability of farm families, and it will help in the offset of emissions.

Senator Boyhan referred to fertiliser as an issue that needs to be addressed. One of the best things the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, can do, and I believe that many farmers would agree with her, is to attack the current oligopolistic nature of the fertiliser market. As long as that continues to be a problem, I do not think the fertiliser companies have any real interest in finding a solution.

I am very much in support of this motion. It was very eloquently introduced by Senator Garvey. We set one challenge for the Minister of State, which is to be ambitious, but that is also a challenge for all of us.

05/11/2020QQQ00200Senator Tim Lombard: I welcome this very important motion. I welcome the Minister of State to the House. We are speaking today about how we can deal with the biodiversity challenge. It is a worldwide challenge. A motion was passed in the last Oireachtas and I believe it is an issue we all support. Society definitely supports it too.

The biggest issue in trying to progress this is how to get everybody on board. This will be a major challenge. Other speakers have referred to the farming community. Statistically we are under pressure when it comes to our agricultural and farming community. When there are more farmers over the age of 80 than under the age of 35 it will be a real issue to have the farming community coming on board. We are looking at the scenario where 50% of our farmers are over the age of 55 and one third of our farmers over the age of 66. Those kinds of statistics in any industry will be one of the biggest issues when trying to get major changes in practice and major changes in society.

Our younger generation of farmers are very well educated having gone through college programmes over four years and then on to agricultural college. They are the most capable agricultural students in the world. When one talks of biodiversity, they understand the need for change and they understand that what happened in the 1980s and the 1990s cannot continue. For a start, they know that the market will not take it. They know they have to be part of a society and an economy that understands change is required to find solutions for this biodiversity problem. There have been solutions over the past few years. On the nitrates issue, for example, there was a targeted agricultural modernisation scheme, TAMS, grant that brought forward the ability for slurry to be injected into the ground. The majority of slurry spreading in my part of the world is all now done by a trailing shoe injector. If I was to say this five years ago, I would have said there was no hope of that happening but it has been a major success and a major change. We have seen the economic and the environmental impact of major change like that.

The main challenge facing Ireland as a society is how we get everybody on board in order 263 Seanad Éireann that we can make this major change in society, which is needed. That will be the problem. Our farming generation is the ultimate issue at the moment. How can we, to borrow the phrase, teach an old dog new tricks? That is the problem we have at present. We need to get them on board. That will be the ultimate problem for the Government. I believe that the majority of farmers really welcome the Government’s plan for the farm retirement scheme. They want to have an outlet whereby they can move their farm on. We really have to find a solution to that issue. That will be a major part of moving this issue on.

Society has totally changed. Consider the ability of Tidy Towns groups to use Roundup and other such products, for example. They have all modified and changed their behaviours in the past two and three years. A societal change is needed to move this along. The motion is very important because it keeps the impetus on delivering that key change.

4 o’clock

This is all about raising the issues and coming forward with solutions.

We need to find a solution to generational change in our farms. It is the ultimate key solution. We have the best young farmers in the world. We need to ensure they have access to the land. By working on a farm retirement scheme, we will have the opportunity to make the real changes required to ensure that this biodiversity challenge can be met.

05/11/2020RRR00200Senator Rebecca Moynihan: I thank the Green Party Senators for drafting this very comprehensive motion. I listened to the informative and entertaining speech from Senator Garvey on the issue. As a pure inner-city woman who grew up in a concrete jungle, I always find it useful to listen to contributors with a knowledge of peat, soil and hedgerows.

It is generally accepted that we are in the middle of a climate and biodiversity crisis with dramatic knock-on effects. As the motion notes, around 1 million animal species are threatened with extinction within decades. Last year the Intergovernmental Science-Policy Platform on Biodiversity and Ecosystem Services stated that we are losing plants and animals hundreds of times faster than in the past. The twin challenges of climate change and a biodiversity crisis arrived at our door very suddenly. We can choose to rise to the challenge, enhance our food security and rise to the challenge of the effects of climate change or we can decide to ignore it.

The effect of the climate and biodiversity crisis on the world we live in, is immense. Today each of us came into this Chamber with a face mask. We are required to socially distance from each other. We have limited contact with friends. We will not have the same Christmas this year because we are in the middle of a pandemic, which scientists warn will become a more frequent occurrence in the coming years. This is because of the climate and biodiversity crisis we have.

Over the weekend, in a supplement to the Financial Times, the scientist who co-discovered Ebola said that we are living in the age of pandemics because of how we treat our planet. He specifically pointed out issues such as deforestation and the loss of biodiversity as the key drivers of our exposure to more zoological viruses, as some animals need to expand their range, move into new areas and their natural home is destroyed.

The Labour Party supports of the Sinn Féin amendment which references the shocking report last week from the Department of Agriculture, Food and Marine, which pointed out that our forestry industry is a net contributor to CO2 emissions and that we should be moving to 264 5 November 2020 a more sustainable and biodiverse model of forestry. This needs to start with our commercial forestry arm, Coillte, which had prioritised non-native trees. Some 92% of the forests in the Dublin Mountains are comprised of non-native species.

Ireland has a very low tree coverage at just 11%, in the area where I live in Dublin’s inner city, we have extremely low tree coverage. Somebody gave a load of seeds to Dublin Corpora- tion in the 1950s and we have pear trees which are dangerous for older people and not suitable for an inner-city environment.

In our previous work on both climate and forestry Bills, my Labour Party colleagues, Depu- ty Sherlock and Senator Hoey, pushed hard to promote alternative forest systems, like continuous cover and broadleaf forests, which we argued was better for climate change mitigation and provided co-benefits such as protecting our biodiversity.

During this debate we have heard many people who have a strong rural and farming background but I want to give an urban perspective. The majority of the world’s population live in cities and we have higher density. In giving this perspective, it is vital to state the impact that our local authorities can have in supporting biodiversity in our urban centres. Simple changes and interventions such as supporting more biodiverse non-interventions are really important in terms of maintenance. Natural interventions are very simple and cheap, such as planting wildflowers, and developing pollinator plans and pathways. However, much more can be done to take this beyond lip service. It should not be limited to the climate or parks sections of local authorities.

I shall give an example of something that happened in my area a few years ago, which has also happened in other countries. This issue needs to move beyond specific Departments to other areas that local authorities are dealing with, in terms of our built environment. Temporary allotments were established in an area that was being regenerated with housing and after the financial crash social housing was built. When moving the allotments we found another space but many councillors questioned whether we should put allotments on top of buildings. We were told no because of the depth of soil and heaviness required and, unfortunately, there was no greening of the building in terms of design.

The programme for Government contains a commitment to build 50,000 publicly built houses over the next five years, which I am not sure I believe. We need to prioritise greening but that does not have to be complicated or expensive. It just needs to be encouraged. People need to be informed that sometimes not being green and pristine is a good way to approach the issue. For example, Milan has a vertical green building comprised of trees called the Bosco Verticale that people travel from all over the world to see and we should incorporate that into our built environment. The new architectural challenge is to create the garden cities of the 21st century. We want density because we want people to move around and we want to support a non-car culture but we must do all that in our building environment. We could very easily incorporate biodiverse environments into that. Simple interventions that do not cost an awful lot of money need to be encouraged and mainstreamed into local authorities. The OPW did a lot of work for diversity week but other agencies and the OPW need to mainstream their thinking when it comes to the lands and buildings they maintain.

We support this motion and the Sinn Féin amendment. It is very promising that the Green Party has prioritised this issue by tabling a motion. I look forward to working with other Mem- bers of the Seanad over the next couple of years in terms of mainstreaming that thinking and 265 Seanad Éireann bringing an inner city voice to the challenges of biodiversity and climate change.

05/11/2020SSS00200Acting Chairman (Senator Ned O’Sullivan): The next speaker is Senator Lynn Boylan. She has eight minutes.

05/11/2020SSS00300Senator Lynn Boylan: I move amendment No. 1:

To insert the following after the final paragraph:

“calls on the Government to recognise the integral role of biodiversity in regulating the climate and ensuring long-term resilience to climate change explicitly in the Climate Action and Low Carbon Development (Amendment) Bill 2020 and that all policy instru- ments resulting from that Bill and the Principal Act comply with, and actively support, the implementation of the National Biodiversity Action Plan; recognises:

- the need to transition to renewable energy but that this transition should enhance biodiversity and be consistent with the National Peatlands Strategy;

- that biodiversity is threatened by some of the same drivers that cause climate change; biodiversity is also under threat from climate change; and calls on the Govern- ment to legislate to prevent the development of future Liquefied Natural Gas terminals;

- that the findings of the report produced by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine which showed Ireland’s forestry industry is a net emitter of CO2; that the National Parks and Wildlife Service finds the model of forestry is one of the biggest pressures on biodiversity-rich EU protected habitats; and calls on the Government to implement a new Forestry Strategy that works for community and the planet;

- the significance of this Island to the Native Irish Honey Bee (Apis mellifera mellifera) and Ireland now has potentially the greatest reserve of Apis mellifera mellifera in the world, however, our magnificent bees are under threat due to the importation of non-native bees from all over the world leading to the hybridisation of our local native bees; and calls on the Government to develop a strategy for its conservation.”

05/11/2020SSS00450Senator Victor Boyhan: I second the amendment.

05/11/2020SSS00500Senator Lynn Boylan: I thank the Green Party Senators for bringing forward the motion. I am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss the biodiversity crisis that was declared by this House last year.

As someone who has worked in a national park for years I have a deep connection to biodiversity and am aware of the absolute urgent need to take action to save what is left, and invest in restoring what we can. I commend the Green Party Senators on what is a very comprehensive motion on tackling the biodiversity crisis. I look forward to the time when the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Senator Hackett, brings forward the legislation that will fulfil the demands stated in the motion.

I shall point out two things that I hope will be taken on board by the Government because, unfortunately, no amendments were tabled for them. One is the inclusion of rhododendron on the list of invasive species. As someone who has worked in Killarney National Park, I know

266 5 November 2020 that we need to take an evidence-based approach to the eradication of rhododendron. Unfortu- nately, to date that approach has not been taken in Killarney National Park.

The motion focuses a lot on the collection of data, and rightly so. I ask that the Govern- ment considers stopping tendering out the running of the National Biodiversity Data Centre and instead bring it under central control but resource it adequately. That would mean giving permanent contracts to the scientists and researchers employed thus valuing their contribution to society.

I do not disagree with the intentions of the Bill. I come from a school of thought that views nature as having value in its own right. Nature should be protected regardless of the benefits that humans might happen to accrue from it. Unfortunately, I wince when I hear the term “ecosystem services” because nature does not serve us. In fact, it is rather a case that we in the global North have exploited nature for centuries. The concept of offsets and ecosystem services are taken from the book of technocratic, green-minded decision-makers who believe that something will not be respected for its intrinsic value but rather only for its monetary value or for what we, as humans, can get out of it. It sets up an unhealthy master-servant relationship with nature and it perpetuates the narrative that nature must be subsumed within the economy rather than the other way around. Commodifying nature is morally wrong, but it also comes with real risks. If something can be bought and sold or if one puts a price on something, there will always be people with pockets deep enough to buy their way out of protecting it or to claim ownership of it. Decommodification activists in the indigenous communities have been warning us for years that in many senses what we are trying to do now with nature is a form of neo-imperialism. In many cases, it does not have the desired outcomes that people promise. Payment for ecosystem services risks creating perverse incentives, for example, a forestry system that is set up to store carbon but which incentivises the planting of non-native species or the planting of trees on biodiversity-rich marginal land. If this sounds familiar, it is because that is the state of forestry in Ireland.

As I said, I wholeheartedly welcome this motion but, with no disrespect to those who draft- ed it, I wish we did not have to be in a space where we have to calculate the monetary value or cost of not protecting biodiversity and that we would legislate for it because it is the right thing to do. Sinn Féin will support this motion but we hope that our amendments will also be supported because we believe they come from a good place and they seek to strengthen the motion which, as I said, is very comprehensive. One of the Sinn Féin amendments relates to liquefied natural gas, LNG. The rationale for it is that the motion outlines how human action is behind the biodiversity crisis and an important driver of that is the climate change crisis. Changing climate means shifting habitats, seasons and ocean acidification, among other factors that all negatively impact on biodiversity. In the programme for Government the Green Party secured a partial ban on one specific LNG terminal on the Shannon Estuary but we learned inThe Sunday Business Post that the leader of the Green Party is considering a plan which could allow the construction of three floating terminals and turn Ireland into a massive exporter of fossil gas. The clear signal that this State could send to the fossil fuel industry is a ban on new fossil fuel infrastructure such as these terminals for liquefied natural gas.

Sinn Féin has also tabled an amendment calling for the climate Bill that is currently un- dergoing pre-legislative scrutiny to actively support the implementation of the national biodiversity action plan. We have heard from eminent speakers at the Joint Committee on Climate Action why this is so important. We need to take climate action to protect biodiversity but how we take that action can adversely impact on biodiversity. It is essential that the actions that 267 Seanad Éireann we take to address climate breakdown and biodiversity loss are fully complementary. Again, I hope that this amendment will be accepted because it is critical it is included in the climate Bill.

Senator Martin stole my thunder in speaking on the Sinn Féin amendment with regard to bees. Ireland has potentially the greatest reserve of Apis mellifera in the world. We need urgent action to protect it. I have engaged with beekeepers, particularly in Connemara, who are desperate for action in this area. Voluntary does not cut it. We need to have a strategy in place because these beekeepers are finding non-native bees in their hives today and every day and they are demanding that action be taken on the issue.

Sinn Féin wants to work with colleagues in this House. Our amendments come from a good place. We believe they are constructive and we hope that Senators will support them.

05/11/2020TTT00200Senator Alice-Mary Higgins: Like others, I welcome the motion and the opportunity to discuss the biodiversity crisis. It is a crisis we discussed at some length in this House in various debates over the course of the previous Oireachtas, including on the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill and the Heritage Act, because it cuts across so much of our policy in Ireland. It is always useful at the beginning of any discussion on biodiversity to reflect on how extraordinarily fortunate we are to be living on the only known planet with life. It is a planet on which, if one considers the extraordinary diversity of life in any acre of peatland or rainforest, there is an extraordinary and impossible complexity of life. It is an extraordinary mark of shame that over the past century, humans have been stripping the colour, texture, voice, diversity, sound and richness of that complexity out of the environments we occupy. The evidence is there in the massive escalation in the loss of habitat and of species. I will not go into all of the figures because they are comprehensively discussed in this amendment. It mentions the fact that 500,000 species face extinction and that more than half of our native bird species are either on the red or amber list of endangerment.

This motion could be stronger on how we respond to that crisis and perhaps the Minister of State will address these issues in her response. I acknowledge a positive measure in the motion in that it recognises that biodiversity is not just important for the economy but that it is important for humanity in the wider sense as well as spiritually and morally. That is recognised in the motion. When we come to the actions in this motion, however, it does not say enough about what we can do. If this is a crisis, and we recognised that it was in 2018 while some people recognised it long before that, then action needs to be taken. While there are many proposals relating to measurement and future strategy in this motion, there is no commitment to action and to use every tool we have.

I am concerned, for example, that when we look to the commitment to moving towards a better forestry strategy, the strategy is referenced in the Sinn Féin amendment but it is not directly referenced in the motion. We are due to have a new forestry strategy in Ireland, starting next January. Surely this is an opportunity to genuinely commit to placing biodiversity at the centre of that. I will mention a concerning indictment of our strategy. The recent “Spruced Up” article by Niall Sargent and Noteworthy informed us that there have only been three environmental impact assessments relating to the 17,000 afforestation licences that have issued since 2010. The environmental impact assessment is a tool we already have. It should be used robustly and at every opportunity and it should not be something we seek to avoid or be an unnecessary hurdle that we try to evade wherever we can. The Government can immediately commit to using the environmental impact assessment tool more widely and robustly. We have tools in the directives from Europe on birds, habitats and water. Again, we need an active and 268 5 November 2020 robust engagement on using them. It was mentioned that Europe would guide us but we can also guide Europe. I hope we will have an indication today of an intention for Ireland to push back strongly on the proposals in the new Common Agricultural Policy, CAP, to diminish opportunities for countries to set a value on ecological care, biodiversity work and that custodian- ship, which is so important. We need to have a robust challenge from Ireland to a CAP that goes against the vision of a green Europe. We also need to hear that Ireland will not seek a deroga- tion under the nitrates directive. If we are concerned about nitrogen in our soil, one thing we can do is stop making a special exception to allow us to use even more of it.

On hedgerows, we had a system under the heritage Bill, which was dismantled. It is fine to conduct a hedgerow survey but we also need to amend the heritage Bill, which allows landowners to personally interpret the Roads Act 1993 without any reference to, or engagement with, local councils, meaning we do not know what is happening with our hedgerows. We cannot stand over that.

I welcome the reference to the national pollinator strategy in the motion and the proposal for a national soil strategy. Let us make them statutory; not simply an aspirational guide but something concrete that needs to be reflected in planning and in local authority strategies at both urban and rural levels.

There is another issue at play here, although I did not submit an amendment on it because I am hoping the Minister of State will clarify her intentions. The motion refers to farmers as “the custodians”. I accept that farmers and people across rural Ireland are some of the most passionate advocates on behalf of the environment and our ecology but they are not “the” custodians alone. Certainly they are custodians but we are all custodians. People in rural and urban Ireland, public representatives, members of BirdWatch Ireland, the beekeepers of Ire- land, members of Butterfly Conservation Ireland and so many others are also custodians. I am concerned about the suggestion of a Citizens’ Assembly to motivate people and to channel the individual ingenuity of citizenry because we cannot put this all on citizens and say the public needs to do more. Part of citizenry is recourse to justice and it is really disappointing that in the recent forestry debate we had a framing of those citizens who seek to do the work the State has not always done in the area of environmental scrutiny as vexatious and problematic. We need to celebrate citizens who step up but we cannot leave it to them alone. The State needs to use all of its powers and tools.

I recognise that this is a positive marker but let us translate it into concrete policy actions at every level. Let us also see in the context of our land use strategy that biodiversity is not simply a subsection of farming but something far wider. It is not, as was very eloquently described, simply about services. One line from the climate talks in Madrid last year still stays with me. An investor spoke about the exciting potential in trees and said that “trees are the best thing we have invented yet”. There is a certain hubris in that. Humans did not invent trees and they are not simply reducible to vehicles for storing carbon, sources of fuel or building materials. It is a concern that so often we hear of the same tree supposedly performing all three functions. The tree, all of the wide diversity in nature and all of the ecological beauty that is there are things we cannot create. We can only nurture, protect, encourage and support nature through rewilding, rewetting and the restoration of habitats. We can stop being part of the problem and start being part of the framing of a positive solution but if it is lost, it is lost forever. I support the motion and several of the amendments thereto.

05/11/2020VVV00200Senator Shane Cassells: I welcome the motion from the Green Party Members of Se- 269 Seanad Éireann anad Éireann. I welcome the fact that the Minister of State, Senator Hackett, has this portfolio and wish her well in her role. I also wish her well in her work to marry together the very real challenges, pressures and realities of life in Ireland and the need for our country to react to the threats to our habitats and ecological life while also respecting the industries that work within it.

The motion commits to protecting nature by providing sufficient support to the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, and reviewing the service’s remit and structure. The reference to a review of the remit and structure of the NPWS is interesting because the challenges faced by our natural habitats are not just caused by humans but also by nature itself, including other invasive species. I cite in particular the erosion of huge parts of our woodlands in the National Park in Killarney by the invasive species, rhododendron. In this case, human interference is positive with dedicated men and women doing back-breaking work to clear the rhododendron. However, there is a long-running issue and tension between the NPWS and the volunteers on the ground in Killarney, who have been clearing the rhododendrons for four decades. The volunteers on the ground know the ecology of the area very well. I met several of them during the summer, including the O’Donoghue family who operate the tour of the lakes in Killarney, and then in the evenings and weekends go out with other volunteers to do that back- breaking work to clear the rhododendrons because they value the area and are passionate about it. However, they are also very aware of protecting the area because they make their living from the tourism industry, as do so many in County Kerry, and they want to make sure they have a vibrant industry. There is a problem between the collaboration of the volunteer groups and the NPWS on this work.

The impact of the relentless erosion of woodlands by this invasive species is unbelievable. It is causing devastation to the ecological balance and to the habitat of many different species in the first national park established in this country. The destruction of the national park by this invasive species had been brought under control many years ago but the problem exploded again and in recent years volunteer groups have cleared hundreds of hectares of rhododendron from half a dozen of Killarney’s most valuable woods. Volunteers have stressed the need for them to be able to go back in and conduct surveys and sweeps of the cleared areas to make sure the rhododendrons are not returning from dormant seeds. This request was not facilitated. That is the issue in that part of the motion and the power struggle with officialdom.

A couple of years ago The Irish Times carried a special major feature by Paddy Woodworth on the threat to our national park. It featured a quote from Therese Higgins who stated:

The issue is not who does the work ... but ... whether the cleared areas stay clear. I can see no way forward as long as NPWS conservation work is not directed by science.

The motion calls for the strengthening of the NPWS, but I do not want a strengthening of officialdom and the system if it is not working collaboratively with those who are trying to protect the ecology of the area who know it best. I accept that it is not just motivated by ecological reasons but commercial tourism reasons as well. If the jewel in the crown of Ireland’s national parks is allowed to be destroyed because of a power struggle, tourists will never return to Kerry, pandemic or no pandemic.

I urge the Minister of State to address the issue in her closing remarks. I support the motion, which is very nuanced and very well thought out and researched. We can empower a lot of people to do work and find that the net result does not give us what we set out to do in the first place. I urge these Houses to listen to the people on the ground on many different topics. They 270 5 November 2020 are helping communities at the coalface.

05/11/2020WWW00200Senator Aisling Dolan: I welcome the Minister of State, Senator Hackett. We know each other from Offaly and also from Galway. Like the Minister of State, who is a farmer, I also come from a farming background. I grew up on a farm, worked on a farm and got the green certificate. The amount of research that has been done in the past ten to 20 years that shows us the loss of wildlife and habitats is shocking.

It is crucially important to maintain wildlife and increase what we have. I believe local authorities have a crucial role to play in doing that. I mentioned my background and how I came to be involved in public representation in an earlier discussion. It was related to the environmental impact of the development of a waste transfer station in the Ballinasloe area. The impact was on the waterways in low-lying floodplains. We came together as a community group to challenge the local authority and ensure that the habitats directive was upheld. I appreciate that, as mentioned in the motion, the status of protected natural habitats is under threat. I call on the Minister of State to consider providing, through future legislation, extra resources for the underfunded and under-resourced environmental section in each local authority. Individu- als and groups, including community groups, are working together to protect the environment in which they live. We must ensure that they are supported in doing so but also that it is not the case that individuals must come together to fight against local authorities or groups that have planning unfavourable to protecting the environment.

Protecting wildlife is important. The River Suck has a special protection area, SPA. The birds directive covers a number of birds there, including the Whooper swan. As Senator Martin mentioned, the marsh fritillary butterfly is the only protected butterfly in the EU. It is found in Ballinasloe exactly where the low-lying floodplains are. The devil’s-bit scabious is a food plant for it. How do we protect the devil’s-bit scabious in our unique boglands?

I pay tribute to the groups that are doing great work. The Living Bog is protecting many of our raised bogs, for example, in Mountbellew. There are also a number of raised bogs in Roscommon. Such groups are doing their best to protect what is there and ensure that people can enjoy the resources and amenities on our doorsteps.

As well as making sure that we have regulations and biodiversity plans, we must bring our community groups with us. We must ensure that people can see the amenities, resources and wildlife habitats if we are to be able to maintain them in the long term, for example, walkways, cycleways and greenways that pass through the areas in a way that protects the land and the species, and if people are to know the value in keeping what we have.

Speaking as someone from a farming background, I take on board Senator Lombard’s point about the importance of the generational aspect for farmers and bringing them with us. I come from an area where there are suckler farmers and many small farms, and off-farm income is crucial. Much of that income comes from ecotourism. I was pleased to see from a recent Teagasc presentation on using less technology and having lower emissions, including from slurry, that so much work was being done and that farmers were leading in terms of technology to ensure that we would be able to meet our European requirements. I call on the Minister of State to take into account the work that farmers are doing in leading the charge and to consider funding our local authorities to ensure that areas that are currently protected remain so and that, crucially, the number of wildlife habitats on publicly owned lands is increased. Our community group is going through all of that right now, which just shows that individuals and community groups 271 Seanad Éireann have to fight hard.

05/11/2020XXX00200Senator Eugene Murphy: Like other Senators, I welcome this motion on biodiversity. I am delighted to see the Minister of State, Senator Hackett. Between the Mayo and Offaly connection and her love of land, she is the best person we could have as Minister of State with responsibility for this issue. I will work with her.

I could reiterate much of what has been said. Regardless of what side we come from, there is a recognition that we have to deal with this issue, but we must do so in a fair manner. That is evident from today’s discussion. Many of us grew up in rural Ireland. I often make the point that those of us who were reared on small or medium-sized farms grew up with such positive environmental lives. We grew up where our parents would not touch a bird’s nest. If we had some poultry in our gardens and during the summer our hens came along with a clutch of chick- ens, it was a fantastic thing for children to witness. The idea of working with schools is found throughout this motion and Government policy. If we listened more to our younger generation, we would see that younger people were coming up with many good ideas. As adults, we have to buy into that. One could not walk into any school today, be it urban or rural, without seeing biodiversity initiatives in action. That is fantastic. Combined with everything the pupils are doing with their teachers in this regard, it gives me great hope for the future. In certain respects, some people have the belief that many farmers are basically anti-environment. They are not. The key to success is working with the farming communities. All farming organisations have environmental committees and specific members dealing with environmental issues. I spoke before the budget to members of Macra na Feirme. Their interest in biodiversity was extraordinarily positive.

I recall the environmentally friendly ways that our parents and grandparents had of dealing with issues. There was no dumping of waste food - the crumbs were thrown out to the birds. Children were told about every type of bird - that is a robin, that is a blue tit, that is a bullfinch. This all happened on the farms of Ireland. From my perspective, it was a most amazing experience as a young person. We need to find some way of returning to that. We must encourage people to grow vegetables and fruit trees in their gardens again. Those used to be part of every farm in my area of County Roscommon. I am sure that many of the Senators around me who come from a rural background, regardless of whether they now live in Dublin city, Cork city, Galway city or some other large urban area, can identify with this experience. It is an important aspect to remember in the debate.

Turning to the programme for Government, it is important that we see commitments to the promotion of biodiversity in our schools. The more we link up with schools, the more we will learn. It is important to review the protection of our natural heritage, including hedgerows. When discussing carbon, we must take into account the importance of our hedgerows in that regard.

Senator Dolan and others spoke about having stronger links with local authorities, be they in urban or rural areas, in terms of additional programmes and providing them the funding to do more.

People talk about pesticides on farms. I come from an horticultural background. It is what I studied in college. I do not like pesticides, but some use of pesticides is needed in some farm situations. Many of those farmers would like there to be a safer and environmentally friendlier way. Surely that is something that we can work through. 272 5 November 2020 I like the great idea in the programme for Government about having an annual biodiversity award scheme.

If one dictates to or speaks down to people, one creates a barrier and a division. Regardless of our parties or whether we are Independents, we as politicians must always work to bring groups together. If some farming group expresses anger or concern about an environmental issue then I believe going and speaking to those people, listening to their point of view and point- ing out some change that can be made will be better for everybody. That often works. There should not be an “us and them” in this debate. It is important for all of us to keep that in mind as we further debate these issues and bring in legislation on them.

There were many aspects of farming in the past and it was tough for people to have enough income to survive. Remember, however, it is tough to have a liveable income out of many farming methods today. Any of us who are politicians will know that if farmers do not have what is called “the cheque in the post” and other things to help them along the route, they would not have financial survival mechanisms. That is the reality. Anything we can suggest or propose as politicians, in conjunction with the farming organisations or horticultural or agricultural organisations or whatever they are, might say to somebody if he or she made a slight change on his or her farm of 40 acres and started producing something else then it might pay. I am, however, a great believer in pilot schemes and adequately financing people to work on that for a few years to see whether it will work out financially.

All in all, this is a good motion. Obviously, there will be further debate on aspects of it but in terms of forestry we need to have a real and big discussion on it. I know that will come up in terms of what we will bring forward, hopefully, in 2021. There is much positivity coming out of forestry if it is handled the right way.

I have referred before to Sliabh Bawn in my neck of the woods and I believe I spoke to the Minister about it. Coillte owns a vast area of land where it has grown mainly trees and spruces, in particular, that we can have issues with. It is, however, an important part of creating jobs and money. In terms of where we put in a wind farm, however, which people did not like, Coillte along with Roscommon County Council has opened up a fascinating walkway and runway and it shows up the history of the area. It is a beautiful place I would encourage people to walk for their well-being. It is a fantastic place to have on one’s doorstep right now. There are, therefore, ways we can make huge improvements and ways we can bring the vast majority of people with us.

05/11/2020ZZZ00200Senator Pauline O’Reilly: I welcome the Minister. Many times we spoke about climate action and a climate crisis. This is our opportunity today as Greens to put biodiversity on the table for its own sake and not to mix up messages. Absolutely, we need to look at how both can exacerbate each other’s problems but today it is about biodiversity.

As a Government, we have two Ministers with responsibility for biodiversity, one of whom is a Minister in Cabinet. We have the Ministers, Senator Hackett and Deputy Noonan, and that is a valuable position to be in. I agree, however, with many of the comments that this is an all-of-government issue and must go across every Department. In fact, as a spokesperson on education I believe it must permeate every bit of children’s lives as well.

Today, what I will say is a kind of love note to suburbia because it often gets forgotten. Senator Moynihan spoke passionately about inner cities and architecture. We also hear from

273 Seanad Éireann farming communities. I have had much experience coming from a farming background too but really I grew up, raised my family and will more than likely end my days in suburbia in a much-loved three-up, two-down.

When I was growing up we had insects hitting our windows. We were stung by bees frequently. We sat on our doorsteps and identified birds, as has been outlined by Senator Murphy as well on his farm. We did the same, however, in suburbia and it was an important part of our upbringing. What we did not have was the understanding of what we were about to lose. For that reason, steps were not put in place to save the things we were about to lose. Much of this is related to the interests of corporations and monoculture but also a lack of understanding. We must bring people with us as we move forward. Suburban parks in those days were barren, scorched places and planting was frequently spruce. We must reverse that and bring people with us as we do so.

In the past few months, I have witnessed the unfolding of nature around me. On my street, mowing has stopped and I see wild flowers surging, children out playing and experiencing nature and older neighbours hand-picking weeds. My campaign manager, Claire Hillery, started a campaign in Galway called “Say No to the Mow”. People became aware of all the colours they could see because of the surge in the number of wild flowers. When we looked outside, we no longer saw only green but pinks, blues and yellows, perhaps as a result of that.

I was also honoured to chair the climate action and environment strategic policy committee of Galway City Council at the time we put forward and adopted the all-Ireland pollinator plan. We had dedicated volunteers on the committee who did much work for years. Parks around the city have been transformed. What we must do is explain the message because the council has been criticised for not collecting grass or waste materials, for instance, and not doing as much mowing. We need to take that criticism on board, start a conversation on it and explain that we are doing this because we are giving back to nature.

The Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, will bring forward the fourth national biodiversity action plan next year setting out our policies under the European Green Deal and the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. I welcome that. As Senator Dolan correctly stated, that needs to be implemented at local authority level. In my final year as a councillor on Gal- way City Council, we managed to have a biodiversity officer and a tree officer appointed. That has not happened in all local authorities but it is an area on which we can make progress.

When I was growing up in the 1970s and 1980s, bogs were cherished as sources of fuel and because people had fun on them on days out with their families. The Department has funded a significant biodiversity restoration initiative, the Atlantic bog project, in recognition of the strength of the role bogs play in biodiversity and as carbon sinks. This was done outside the programme for Government. The project will be on 2,100 ha of bogs on the Atlantic coast and I am delighted that Derryclare bog in Galway will be one of them.

We need to remove commercial forests from bogland. I take exception to comments that we should not look at the economy. We must understand and recognise that farmers make a living from these lands. We must recognise that they have been let down by the Common Agricultural Policy. The EU habitats directive, the importance of which my colleague has spoken about, also gets a mixed reaction from farmers, particularly in the west which I know well. People need to make an income from their land, as they are used to doing. We need to look at biodiversity in economic terms as well. I fundamentally believe this, which is why I welcome the 274 5 November 2020 Minister of State, Senator Hackett, being in the Department with responsibility for agriculture. She takes that approach and looks at farmers’ interests as well as nature’s interests. Both have to go hand in hand because human beings are part of the ecosystem.

When we were younger we looked at plastic and we now understand that we should not put all of the bottles into the same bin and we do not put paper and cardboard in the same bin as food waste. In the short time we have had, we have taken a huge step forward in our understanding of plastic waste, partly because people can look at images on David Attenborough’s television programmes and elsewhere and see what it actually does to our marine life. This is the first step in some ways for us in the Government to look at biodiversity in the fullest sense and really show it to people in a really concrete way. When people stand at the front doors of their suburban homes they no longer get stung by bees or see insects or other wildlife. We must think back to how it used to be for previous generations and think forward to what we can do now and what the Green Party, Fianna Fáil and the Fine Gael Party have the opportunity to do in government in partnership with the Opposition.

05/11/2020BBBB00200An Cathaoirleach: We have to call the Minister of State at 4.59 p.m. and we have four speakers remaining. This would mean they would get two minutes apiece but it is up to the next speaker, Senator Kyne, as to whether he wants to share time.

05/11/2020BBBB00300Senator Seán Kyne: Is it possible to extend the time?

05/11/2020BBBB00400An Cathaoirleach: No, the order of the House is that we have to ask the Minister of State to respond and she has 15 minutes to do so.

05/11/2020BBBB00500Senator Seán Kyne: Can we agree to change the order of the House and extend the debate by half an hour?

05/11/2020BBBB00600An Cathaoirleach: No, I am afraid not. Private Members’ motions are two hours. Senator Kyne has eight minutes. That is the agreement of the House. That is just the way it is.

05/11/2020BBBB00700Senator Seán Kyne: Of course I will share but I had a few things worked out to say. I welcome the Minister of State. This is a very important area. I am a former REPS planner and I know the important role farmers have played in environmental programmes over the years. The Minister of State will be developing a new REPS scheme. As the original REPS programme transitioned into the agri-environment options scheme and GLAS, it switched from a whole farm approach to more targeted measures. We saw that farmers recognise the value of stone walls and hedgerows and they became landscape features to be protected under basic farm payments. The riparian zones were a supplementary measure under the original REPS. There is great potential in nutrient interception, shading rivers and reducing temperatures in regard to the value of habitats as they are and as shelters.

The potential in this area is huge. I am particularly concerned that in the past many farmers viewed scrub as waste ground, as did the State which provided grants to reclaim it. That has changed and, as Senator Lombard said, newer generations understand the importance of habitats and ecosystems. The EU possibly does not as people still get money for forage areas. In order to avail of maximum payments farmers have to keep controlling those areas that are becoming scrubby. They are penalised with regard to areas that are not grassland or forage areas. I ask the Minister of State to see whether this can be changed in the next CAP.

05/11/2020CCCC00100Senator Paddy Burke: I thank Senator Kyne for sharing his time. I welcome the Minister 275 Seanad Éireann of State to the House and congratulate and wish her well. I thank the Green Party for tabling this important motion. I will shorten my speech considerably because of the time. Between 35% and 40% of the food produced worldwide is wasted. Europe should play an important role in food packaging. New types of food packaging will allow food to be transported further and further afield. Fresh flowers can be packaged and sent by sea rather than by air. All of the flowers from Africa come by air and are transported through Europe. They could be transported by sea using a modified air packaging system. This approach has to be pushed by the European Union and various European governments. Farmers should be compensated or paid if they play an active role in this.

On biodiversity, there was a major issue with a species of snail when the Naas dual carriageway was being developed. I have asked several Ministers from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine what has happened. Have surveys been carried out on any destruction caused or whether the Naas dual carriageway had a devastating effect on the snail at the time? Did the snail come back? Is it in the area at present? In my area, it was argued that wind farms would have a big effect on grouse numbers but grouse are now nesting under the pylons. I would like surveys to be carried out in this regard. We have an area of diluvian woodland and an issue with regard to displacement of the freshwater pearl mussel by infrastructure. Does development have a detrimental effect on freshwater pearl mussels or do they just move on to another place? I understand that no trials have been done in this area. I would welcome if something was done in this regard.

05/11/2020CCCC00200An Cathaoirleach: The Leader has agreed to extend the time, which the Whip will propose.

05/11/2020CCCC00300Senator Seán Kyne: I propose that notwithstanding the Order of the House, we extend the time for this debate to 5.45 p.m.

05/11/2020CCCC00400An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. The extension is to facilitate all Senators who wish to contribute. The convention is that Senators are allowed to speak only once. However, as Senator Kyne’s time was cut short, I will allow him to contribute again. Senator Burke will also have more time.

05/11/2020CCCC00500Senator Paddy Burke: I raised everything I had intended to raise, albeit briefly.

Food packaging is a multibillion euro area and new food packaging systems can be put in place now that allow food to be transported further and further throughout the world. The modified air system means the air in the carton or box is modified and kept at a certain temperature. Trials have shown that blueberries can last for 42 additional days after the box is opened. They are packaged, held in cold storage and then placed on the shelf. This is a big breakthrough. We have not seen any change to fruit and vegetable packaging in the past 30 years. Since the introduction of the tomato box, there has been very little change in the way stoned fruit and vegetables are packaged.

5 o’clock

This type of modified air packaging gives considerable additional time to fresh flowers and would revolutionise the industry by using sea transport rather than air transport, which is used at the moment. The packaging would give shops and the people who work in the area more time to sell flowers because the sector is vulnerable, the produce is pricey and a lot of money is involved.

276 5 November 2020 Regarding trials, surveys should be carried out. Many projects have been held up over the years by the intended displacement of certain species. Has that been as detrimental as proposed? We do not seem to have trials to say the Naas dual carriageway project went ahead and had a detrimental effect on a snail species. I wonder whether it had a detrimental effect. Did the snail move elsewhere? Has that snail species become extinct? What would have been the consequences if the Naas dual carriageway project had gone ahead at the time?

05/11/2020DDDD00200Senator Fiona O’Loughlin: I am delighted to support the motion tabled by the Green Party. It follows an amendment that my party tabled in the Dáil last year that made Ireland only the second country in the world to declare a biodiversity emergency. Without doubt there is an emergency. We all learn from the people around us and we have all learned a great deal from David Attenborough and Greta Thunberg, most recently, over the past few years. I learned from a man that I would like to pay tribute to the late Joe Lynch from Valentia and Rathangan. He was incredibly passionate about the biodiversity and heritage both of his native Kerry and Kildare. Not a week went by that without me receiving an email or a newspaper cutting of an article from him on biodiversity. I miss receiving those missives from Joe and we miss him in so many ways. His message always was, “This is getting too late and we have a crisis.” He was correct because the statistics show that the change in nature globally over the past 50 years is unprecedented when we consider how nature across the world has been significantly altered by human activity. We must do different things to make this right. We must respect the diversity of life and our habitats. We must strike a sustainable balance between man, animals, wildlife, what we grow and the earth.

Regarding Ireland’s biodiversity heritage, I am very lucky that Pollardstown Fen is within 5 km of where I live in County Kildare. The fen is a most beautiful place and I recommend everyone to visit it to see its biodiversity that exists with support. I also live very close to the Bog of Allen and, again, there are specific actions that need to be taken there and at Ummerus Bog.

The Curragh is an important place for heritage and biodiversity. I look forward to support in this House to help declare the Curragh a unique conservation area. It needs to be designated a heritage park. I thank Gaye Brabazon and Karen Tyrell for all of the education that they afforded myself and many others on walks across the Curragh in helping us to learn and understand its flora and fauna. We learn much from those who went before us regarding how they preserved and respected the land. It is time revisit this issue. I completely support, as this motion outlines, the programme for Government that has a number of additional actions. They are absolutely required over the lifetime of this Government to address the crisis. It is hugely important that these elements of the programme for Government are put in place.

I neglected to welcome the Minister of State back to where she sits and welcome her back to her own House. I agree with what Senator Pauline O’Reilly said, that is, the fact that the Minister of State comes from a farming background is very important in terms of understanding biodiversity. We need to strike a balance between supporting farming practices and the farming way of life yet protect biodiversity and, indeed, respect the many forms of life that exist in this country.

05/11/2020EEEE00200Senator Fintan Warfield: I welcome the Minister of State to the House. It was reported towards the end of last month or last week that our managed forestry estate has become a net emitter of carbon, according to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. That would be a staggering finding as it contradicts the Government’s position that Irish forests are a significant carbon sink and carbon store. I have just seen a statement provided by the Minister 277 Seanad Éireann of State that refutes the claim so I would appreciate if she expanded on the issue. If the claim is true then it would make us one of two EU states where forests are emitters rather than carbon sinks.

Following freedom of information requests, we know that not a single environmental impact assessment was conducted on large scale plants in terms of peat soils. The forestry model has been touched on a lot here today. A new forestry strategy is due but it must deliver for biodiversity and our climate. It must also deliver for workers and communities who depend on forestry. The strategy must ensure that we grow the right trees in the right place yet not sacrifice biodiversity in the west, for example, by planting Sitka spruce or enable biodiversity destruction on intensive dairy farms in the east.

The last issue that I shall speak to is the honey bee. It is mentioned in the Sinn Féin amendment because we must protect the Irish native honey bee as it is at risk of extinction. A recent study showed that, potentially, we have the greatest reserve of the northern dark bee in the world. However, our magnificent bees are under threat from non-native bees that is leading to the hybridisation of our local native bees. I call on the Government to give particular consideration to the Irish native honey bee and act as quickly as possible as every passing day erodes the genetics of local bee colonies.

05/11/2020EEEE00300Senator Seán Kyne: I have argued before that farmers would appreciate Natura and protected areas if they are compensated as they were under the rural environment protection scheme, REPS. As the Minister of State will know, there are excellent schemes that are targeted at geographical areas such as Burren Life, Aran Life and the hen harrier project. These schemes provide financial support and compensation for targeted works and measures.

REPS has taught farmers the value of stone walls and hedgerows. Thankfully, we have many thousands of kilometres of hedgerows but they were not taken into account for the carbon storage value because more research was needed on what value to place on them. Therefore, it is important that we get a value. The impact of large-scale farming and tillage farming has seen the loss of some hedgerows and stone walls. As well as being habitats and ecosystems, they have practical benefits for farmers, whether in terms of controlling grazing or for shelter, and we must also acknowledge their historical values as townland or barony boundaries.

Planting of new hedgerows and the maintenance and protection of stone walls have been the cornerstone of previous REP schemes. Stone walls are features of the Aran Islands, for example, and many parts of the west coast. They are a unique part of the landscape. It has always seemed strange to me that many of the larger farmers in some parts of the country that have lower levels of habitat, whether it be hedgerows, scrubland or whatever else, would end up with higher payments than those who had many habitats and ecosystems under the single farm payment system. That could be looked at as well.

More could also be done in regard to trees. Each farm should have at least one grove of trees in conjunction, where possible, with neighbours, both as shelter for nesting birds and as corridors for mammals. That would all be beneficial. I am in favour of having planting events on farms where generations of the family come together, such as grandparents, parents and grandchildren. It would be a positive experience for a young child of between five and eight to remember planting a tree with their grandfather or planting a grove of trees with their parents, and when they are in their 70s and 80s, they would be able to do the same, or at least to remember it. 278 5 November 2020 I mentioned the riparian zones and the importance of encouraging the planting of individual trees in hedgerows as part of schemes. Flooding, as we know, is natural. Climate change may make it more common or more sudden and result in greater volumes. Drainage schemes in the past were part of the solution to provide more farmland and there were and still are impacts downstream. Only with the agreement and compensation of farmers can some floodplains be recreated upstream from major cities or towns where there is a flood problem.

Reference was made to the re-wetting of bogs. We saw events in Clifden in September, and while we cannot say what the exact cause was, we must examine what solutions can be found. The Office of Public Works, OPW, is looking at solutions. Are there solutions upstream in terms of water storage on the bog areas? We have seen changes to the practice of clear-felling of trees, which is welcome. That is an issue that was highlighted in the early to mid-2000s in Galway when concerns were raised about eutrophication on Lough Corrib caused by sewerage works, septic tanks, coniferous plantation run-off and farming. It is debatable which order those causes would be put in but there has been much progress as well and improvements to all of those areas. As other speakers have said, knowledge and education in farming as well as investment has been most beneficial. In the 1980s there were many cases of silage effluent run- off causing pollution and fish kills and, thankfully, we no longer see that nowadays.

The first time I spoke in the Lower House in 2011 it was about invasive species, which is an area I like to speak about. Lagarosiphon major, African pondweed, is being maintained and controlled on Lough Corrib now but it was a problem. Rhododendron has been mentioned by other speakers. Japanese knotweed and Himalayan balsam are also invasive species that add to the challenges we face.

There is an onus and requirement on us to protect bogs, yet we must recognise the need for some to cut turf. Rather than taking a confrontational approach, which occurred in the past, the best approach is the reduce the need for the cutting of turf by means of the schemes we have for the insulation and retrofitting of homes. I took the Wildlife (Amendment) Bill on behalf of the then Minister, Deputy Madigan, in this House. It focused on looking at State-owned lands in regard to raised bogs. Many farmers were aggrieved because they felt that the small guy was being stopped and yet the big guys such as Bord na Móna and the State were being left untouched. There is recognition of that as well.

05/11/2020GGGG00100An Cathaoirleach: We extended the time provided for the debate to facilitate Members who were in the Chamber at the time but I will not allow any other speakers in. The Minister of State has been generous enough to stay on for another 45 minutes and I do not want to delay her further.

05/11/2020GGGG00200Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Senator Pippa Hackett): I thank Senators for their interesting and informed contributions and for their widespread support for the motion. The extension of time by half an hour demonstrates the passion in the House for this issue, which I welcome.

All Senators spoke passionately on the motion. I think of Senator O’Loughlin’s account of the habitats and areas close to her own home. I thank Senator Boyhan for his well wishes for my party in this Government. I concur with Senator Murphy’s comment to the effect that no matter what side one is on, everyone realises that we have to do something about the crisis we are in. On behalf of the Government, I am delighted to support the proposed motion on the biodiversity emergency put forward by my colleagues, Senators O’Reilly, Garvey and Martin. 279 Seanad Éireann Biodiversity is a keystone to our way of life and must be respected and restored, and it is essential that it remains high on the political agenda. We are in the middle of a biodiversity crisis. As the motion indicates, on a European and national level, we are seeing notable declines in our overall net biodiversity figures for both species and habitats and general biodiversity quality. The primary drivers of these declines have been attributed mainly to human-related activities being carried out in an unsustainable manner, which have damaged and, indeed, removed many natural habitats that are essential for support. Senator Paddy Burke made an interesting point on the effects of current infrastructure. I accept he was coming from the other aspect of it, but it resonated with me in a different way.

Climate change also has a direct influence on biodiversity, both land-based and marine- based. If anyone needs reminding of the devastation that is happening in our natural world, a review of any of the recent documentaries from Sir David Attenborough, now in his 95th year, would soon illustrate in beautiful filmography what we have done. A number of speakers referred to him. The “Blue Planet” and “Our Planet” series are excellent, and his most recent documentary film “A Life on Our Planet”, which is his self-declared witness statement on his life, and our future, is particularly sobering. It is well worth watching. The Covid crisis we are now in, as highlighted by Senator Moynihan, may well have its roots in ecological disruption and breakdown.

Biodiversity underpins every facet of our lives, be it the environmental, social, and economic foundations. I support the stated aim in the motion that action is needed by this Govern- ment to help reverse the marked decline in our biodiversity. I take on board the comments of Senator Cassells. A couple of Senators mentioned rhododendrons in addition to the many other invasive species of flora and fauna. As I helped on one occasion to clear rhododendron in Ab- beyleix Bog, I fully acknowledge the slow, arduous, back-breaking process involved, largely undertaken by volunteers.

My party colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy Malcolm Noonan, who has special responsibility for heritage in the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, has within that remit, a significant role to play in biodiversity and natural heritage support, and with responsibility for the NPWS, there is a the vast expanse of lands within Natura 2000 des- ignations. Senator Dolan raised the issue of local authority engagement. I assure her that the Minister of State will actively engage with local authorities in that regard. His Department will lead in the development of the 4th national biodiversity action plan, which should be in line with policies under the EU Green New Deal, and the UN Convention on Biological Diversity Post-2020 Biodiversity Framework.

In his contribution, Senator Dooley also highlighted some of the positive developments from the Minister of State’s Department. My Department along with Deputy Noonan’s Depart- ment, and other Departments and State agencies, will actively work with a biodiversity focus on establishing a database for our natural capital, to establish an inventory of the ecosystem services we have, and their symbiotic relationship and value to the wider economy, society,and our shared environment. This involves developing new pollinator plans, supporting the collection of biodiversity data, developing a soils strategy, completing a national hedgerow survey, and carrying out a baseline biodiversity survey on Irish farms. Many of these initiatives will be supported through budget 2021 funding, as well as the provision of biodiversity training for farmers, the very people we will probably rely on the to deliver in practice and on the ground for biodiversity. Senator Lombard highlighted that we have to get farmers on board in this regard. Doing so is a vital cog in achieving our ambitions. 280 5 November 2020 Senators Boylan and Higgins regarded putting a monetary value on our ecosystems as un- savoury. I understand where they are coming from but I invite both of them to chat to farmers in designated areas and learn what the designation means to them and how their land has been devalued because of it. My colleague, Senator Pauline O’Reilly, put it much more eloquently in suggesting that if we want the farmers to manage the land in the way we want, we have to put a value on that management.

Positive measures being taken to address the biodiversity challenges of our country include numerous farm-based, locally-led schemes that work well. These projects are examining how we can incorporate biodiversity and the awareness of its importance into agriculture. There are 23 projects under way as part of European innovation partnerships, EIPs, many of which are steering efforts with a focus on improving our biodiversity and climate action. Many of the EIP goals, supported by my Department, target the restoration, preservation and enhancement of biodiversity in farmland habitats towards more sustainable agricultural management practices that will have positive implications for biodiversity. Support and engagement with citizens and farmers, as the custodians of much of our landscape, but perhaps not all of it, is critical in achieving this goal. Indeed, increasing the area under organic farming and in horticulture should also benefit biodiversity.

I did not realise Senator Kyne is a former REPS planner. I would appreciate having time to sit down with him sometime to discuss how we can position ourselves and make our vision for biodiversity fit with what farmers can and will want to achieve.

On food production, the value of direct pollination of human food crops has been estimated to be more than €50 million per year in Ireland alone, which shows how important a healthy biodiversity network is for the very food we eat. For example, adopting diverse hedgerows and allowing them to bloom and fruit, and introducing wildflower margins with diverse species mixes, can support and hopefully increase our dwindling pollinator populations. This requires active engagement with farmers on improving biodiversity-friendly practices, and every step on this road is a step in the right direction.

The all-Ireland pollinator plan aims to give much-needed assistance in this area for our pollinators. Senator Byrne alluded to the necessity of having a more ambitious plan. I would welcome that. I acknowledge the comments of my colleague, Senator Martin. He is an avid keeper of bees and is fully aware of the value that these workhorses of nature provide.

I was glad Senator Garvey spoke so eloquently about our soils. As she said, healthy soils contain an abundance of biodiversity. The value of nutrient cycling by soil organisms alone is estimated to be worth in the region of €1 billion a year.

Peat soils comprise approximately 21% of our land area. These areas are essential for carbon sequestration in our efforts to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. Under the climate action plan, we aim to re-wet 40,000 ha of drained organic grassland soils that will reduce emissions by 440,000 tonnes. That is difficult to sell to farmers. Again, we need engagement to do that correctly.

Senator Pauline O’Reilly also made reference to the Wild Western Peatlands project. This is an important project, again supported by my Department. It will see Coillte Nature restore and rehabilitate approximately 2,100 ha of Atlantic blanket bog, restoring rare habitats of international importance. This involves re-wetting and restoring bogs as much as possible and es-

281 Seanad Éireann tablishing native woodlands on fringe areas, but only on suitable ground that could and should have trees planted on it.

Comments were made on forestry. I assure Senator Warfield that the next forestry strategy will factor in all the essential environmental and community concerns that have been absent in the past.

Biodiversity at sea is often forgotten about. I would like to draw attention to the importance of the marine environment. This Government is committed to supporting the principles and ambition of the EU’s biodiversity strategy. Therefore, I fully support the call in the motion to develop steps for the identification, designation and management of marine protected areas in Irish territorial waters, aiming to ensure these areas cover 30% of our waters by 2030.

The EU Green New Deal, Farm to Fork and Biodiversity objectives are set to afford us all the opportunity to promote biodiversity and agricultural practices in a more blended way on our journey towards a more nature-sensitive and sustainable future. Efficient use and management of our natural resources, including water, soil and natural capital, underpinned by established environmental assessment legislation, is going to be the beating heart of our transition to a cir- cular economy.

I support the motion, affirm the Government’s commitment to the ambitions for biodiversity as set out in the programme for Government, and highlight the work being carried out by my Department and the Departments of my Government colleagues to achieve such goals. All our futures depend on getting this right.

05/11/2020JJJJ00200Senator Róisín Garvey: It is our view in the Green Party that the biodiversity crisis should and must remain top of the political agenda over the next decade. Biodiversity is literally about the air we breathe, the food we eat and the places we live. The collapse of natural habitats, the loss of species and the degradation of our fresh and marine water ecosystems are on a scale unparalleled in human history. Future generations will judge us on how we respond to this existential crisis but we are up for the challenge. We all want to be able to look our grandchildren in the face and say we did everything today that we could, rather than hide away when they ask what we did. We are in the last second of the last minute before midnight as we face the complete destruction of all we have grown up to know and which our children will not know. Unfortunately, we must place an economic value on biodiversity because we live in an economic system. Although there is considerable social and natural value, including health and heart value, we have to have an economic value. I was disappointed to hear Sinn Féin may not recognise the need for that. Its members are always talking about workers’ rights but the farmers are the workers at the centre if we are to be successful regarding biodiversity.

05/11/2020JJJJ00300Senator Lynn Boylan: On a point of order-----

05/11/2020JJJJ00400Senator Róisín Garvey: It is really important that we value their work in protecting biodiversity.

05/11/2020JJJJ00500Senator Lynn Boylan: The Senator does not even understand-----

05/11/2020JJJJ00600An Cathaoirleach: Senator Garvey, without interruption.

05/11/2020JJJJ00700Senator Róisín Garvey: We will have to support the workers, the farmers. They are the most important people we need to engage with to protect our land and planet for future genera-

282 5 November 2020 tions.

05/11/2020JJJJ00800Senator Lynn Boylan: That is twisting my words.

05/11/2020JJJJ00900Senator Róisín Garvey: I strongly support this motion. I am grateful that time was allowed for this motion and the amendment. It is important that we all work together on this. I do not want to hear about political footballs; this is too important. We owe it to future generations to do something. We can live on this planet only because of biodiversity.

05/11/2020JJJJ01000An Cathaoirleach: I thank all the Members for their contributions to this important debate.

Amendment put.

05/11/2020JJJJ01200An Cathaoirleach: In accordance with the order of the Seanad of Friday, 23 October 2020, the division is postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Friday, 6 November 2020. The House stands adjourned until 9.30 a.m. on Friday, 6 November 2020 in accordance with the order of the Seanad.

The Seanad adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 9.30 a.m. on Friday, 6 November 2020.

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