Vol. 185 Wednesday, No. 21 7 February 2007

DI´OSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES

SEANAD E´ IREANN

TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised)

Wednesday, 7 February 2007.

Business of Seanad ………………………………1813 Order of Business …………………………………1814 Visit of Slovak Delegation ……………………………1821 Order of Business (resumed)……………………………1821 Citizens Information Bill 2006: Second Stage ………………………1832 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: Committee Stage …………………1861 National Development Plan: Motion …………………………1893 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: Order for Second Stage ……………………………1927 Second Stage …………………………………1929 Business of Seanad ………………………………1950 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: Second Stage (resumed) …………………1950 Adjournment Matters: Domiciliary Care Allowance ……………………………1952 Genetically Modified Organisms …………………………1955 1813 1814

SEANAD E´ IREANN The need for the Minister for Transport to initiate moves to provide a train service from ———— Dublin to Donegal. I regard the matters raised by the Senators as De´ Ce´adaoin, 7 Feabhra 2007. suitable for discussion on the Adjournment. I Wednesday, 7 February 2007. have selected Senators O’Rourke, Henry and Minihan and they will be taken at the conclusion ———— of business. Senators John Paul Phelan and Ross may give notice on another day of the matters Chuaigh an Cathaoirleach i gceannas ar they wish to raise. 10.30 a.m.

———— Order of Business. Mr. Dardis: The Order of Business is No. 1, Paidir. Citizens Information Bill 2006 — Second Stage, Prayer. to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude no later than 2 p.m., ———— with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of all other Senators not Business of Seanad. to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply no later than ten minutes An Cathaoirleach: I have received notice from before the conclusion of Second Stage; No. 2, Senator O’Rourke that, on the motion for the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006 — Com- Adjournment of the House today, she proposes mittee Stage, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. and to con- to raise the following matter: clude no later than 5 p.m.; No. 3, Communi- The need for the Minister for Health and cations Regulation (Amendment) Bill 2007 — Children to make a statement on the issue of Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be domiciliary care allowance, details supplied, in taken if No. 2 has concluded before 5 p.m., with County Westmeath. the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of all other Senators not to I have also received notice from Senator Henry exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called of the following matter: upon to reply no later than ten minutes before The need for the Minister for Agriculture the conclusion of Second Stage; No. 4, Statute and Food to indicate the steps she is taking to Law Revision Bill 2007 — Order for Second assess the economic advantages to Irish agri- Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the con- culture if GM crops which may cross-pollinate clusion of Private Members’ business, with the with conventional and organic crops are contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 excluded. minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to I have also received notice from Senator Minihan reply no later than ten minutes before the con- of the following matter: clusion of Second Stage; and No. 24, motion 37, The need for the Minister for Education and to be taken between 5 p.m. and 7 p.m. There will Science to clarify the position regarding the be a sos from 2 p.m to 2.30 p.m. purchase of a site for a new primary school in Ballygarvan, County Cork, in view of the fact Mr. B. Hayes: More than four years ago, the that protracted negotiations by the OPW on a All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Consti- three-owner site appear to be stalled, and if she tution unanimously recommended to the Govern- will outline the proposals she has to purchase ment that before a constitutional referendum a suitable site for this urgent project. takes place, there should be at least 60 days of discussion on the matter. It recommended the I have also received notice from Senator John optimum period of 120 days. In light of the Paul Phelan of the following matter: Government’s stated intention of holding a refer- The need for the Minister for Education and endum of children’s rights and child protection, Science to outline the reasons that the auto- will the Acting Leader agree that a more sensible matic entitlement of 2.5 resource hours per approach by the Government would be to publish academic week for children diagnosed with a White Paper on its views on these matters? The Down’s syndrome on entry to national school only consultations the Government has so far was withdrawn, on whose recommendation this undertaken have been between the two largest Opposition parties in the Lower House and was done, and if she recognises that children interested parties in the community and volun- denied this previously automatic right regress tary sector. Throughout the 1980s mistakes were in their formative years. made with rushed and politically motivated con- I have also received notice from Senator Ross of stitutional referenda. It is not good practice to the following matter: hold a referendum so close to a general election. 1815 Order of 7 February 2007. Business 1816

[Mr. B. Hayes.] However, this practice is causing great disruption Will the Acting Leader agree a White Paper in schools. I understand parents’ actions; the dif- should be published? Two principal issues are at ference in fare prices before and after a mid-term stake. First, there are those issues that arose from break, for instance, is huge. The Minister for the CC case, which are urgent and require the Arts, Sport and Tourism should enter talks with Oireachtas to make legislative changes to give an the appropriate tourism providers to ascertain absolute zone of protection to children. The other whether there is a way of dealing with this, not to issue concerns amendments to Article 42 of the prevent businesses from making profits but at Constitution, relating to children’s rights, and in least to have some type of graded approach. respect of which it is more difficult to arrive at a I wish to comment on today’s Order of Busi- consensus position. This would be more sensibly ness. I am always dissatisfied when it is decided left for a longer period of reflection, consultation that if a particular debate finishes before a certain and discussion among society in general so that time, we will move immediately onto the next we can reach a consensus that is agreed by all and matter. I understand the pressure of business but which can be confidently implemented. I would prefer sufficient time for each debate. I understand the difficulty today and I do not Mr. O’Toole: I could not agree more with the object to the proposed arrangement. I ask the points made by Senator Brian Hayes. I received Acting Leader, however, whether we can at least two telephone calls in the past 24 hours from con- agree that there be a half an hour break between stituents wishing to know exactly what is involved Nos. 2 and 3 so that if Members are at a meeting, in the proposed referendum. There is a general for example, they can organise to return to the view that a referendum on the rights of children Chamber. must be a positive development, and most people tend towards being supportive of it. However, Mr. Dardis: That will only arise in the event Members who ask their constituents whether they that the debate on No. 2 ends early. know what the referendum is about will find that most do not. Mr. O’Toole: Exactly. If the debate on No. 2 I agree that rushing into such a referendum will finishes early, we should not go straight to No. not achieve anything like the type of consensus 3. Otherwise, Members may not realise the next that is desirable. As an Independent Member, I debate has begun. Members must be able to am also concerned that the debate on this issue organise their day. is breaking down along party political lines. This should not be a political issue. I am not saying Mr. Ryan: I hope the Cathaoirleach will that either the Government or the main Oppo- indulge me by allowing me to thank the Fianna sition parties are trying to make it such, but that Fa´il press office for the enormous publicity it gen- is what is happening. erated for me by objecting to a photograph of We have almost become out of practice when myself and Fidel Castro. it comes to White Papers. It is, however, an important part of the parliamentary process that An Cathaoirleach: That is not relevant to the there should be discussion of White Papers and Order of Business. Green Papers on various issues. I suggest to the Mr. Ryan: I am grateful for the press office’s Acting Leader that we have a debate on this part- professionalism and efficiency, and would like to icular issue as soon as possible to ascertain record my awe of its skill at getting publicity for Members’ views. It is only then that we will dis- Opposition Members. cover the wide variety of views on this issue, as well as the level misunderstanding around it. It is An Cathaoirleach: Senator Ryan should speak a highly complex issue. The constitutional group, on matters relevant to the Order of Business. comprising experts on such issues, took a long time to issue its response. It is unfair to expect Mr. Ryan: I appreciate the Cathaoirleach’s others to understand all the implications in such indulgence. a short timeframe. It is inappropriate to rush into this before an election and there is no reason that An Cathaoirleach: I did not grant Senator it cannot be postponed. We must allow a debate Ryan any indulgence; he took it. to take place. A recent survey shows that one in six parents Mr. Ryan: Can we have a debate in the take their children out of school during the school immediate future on the grievances being articu- term to take advantage of low air fares and lated by nurses, the apparent conflict, once more, holiday breaks at home and abroad. The Govern- between the Taoiseach and Minister for Health ment should consider making travel companies and Children regarding the approach to this issue, and tourist outlets aware that by increasing prices the apparent dissent within one of the Govern- at times when schools are on holidays, they are ment parties to the Minister’s approach, and, far presenting parents with an inducement they more seriously, the quality of the working con- cannot afford to ignore. I am not saying that we ditions and rewards we offer to nurses? Most should interfere with how the market works. people who have experience of any aspect of our 1817 Order of 7 February 2007. Business 1818 hospital service recognise that nurses work uninterrupted electricity or gas provision, tele- extremely hard under extraordinary pressure for phone lines and so on. rewards which are small relative to those enjoyed by persons who claim to be the great and the Mr. Finucane: On a previous occasion, I raised good in this country. A debate in this House in the possibility that the Minister for Communi- which the views being expressed behind closed cations, Marine and Natural Resources might doors could be articulated in public might help us come to the House to address us on the issue of to advance the cause. I ask the Acting Leader for An Post. There is now a sense of urgency in some indication that such a debate might take respect of this issue because we all understand we place. will see the wholesale closure of post offices once Yet again, I raise the issue of the apparent the general election campaign is over. I under- descent into something close to civil war in the stand An Post is holding off until after the Palestinian territories in Gaza. The use of langu- general election in case the Government might be age in discussions of this issue is extraordinary. It embarrassed by the closure of post offices. Many has been omitted or lost by many commentators non-automated post offices will be closed while that there is an elected Government in the others will be automated. Many of these smaller Palestinian territories to which nobody will talk. post offices also have grocery businesses and their This is a recipe for instability. The Western world, only hope of survival requires the continuation of both businesses. If the post office component of and the world in general, has taken a single view these businesses closes, the grocery shop will on this. That view is part of the problem. close too. Then we will again bleat about the On the Order of Business, the Acting Leader demise of rural Ireland. announced that No. 2 will conclude at 5 p.m. I would like the Minister to come to the House Does this mean that if Committee Stage is not and be honest with us in respect of what is hap- completed by then, he will terminate the debate? pening in An Post. Over the next few weeks those I agree with my colleagues, Senators Brian involved in the post office business will highlight Hayes and O’Toole, that the issue of children’s the serious situation in which they find them- rights in the Constitution is far too profound and selves. Rather than wash his hands of what is hap- complex to be rushed. We in this House regularly pening, I would like the Minister to come to the encounter mistakes in legislation. This was the House and tell us honestly what is happening. case as recently as last week. The prospect that an erroneous, badly phrased or ambiguously worded Ms White: Will the Deputy Leader arrange an amendment relating to children’s rights might be urgent debate on mandatory retirement? On included in the Constitution is something that Monday, the Taoiseach launched the European should concern us all. I appeal to the Govern- year of equal opportunities for all. How can we ment to consider a means of allowing these issues have equal opportunities when people must retire — about which there is an overwhelming consen- at 65 years of age? A recent MRBI-The Irish sus in many cases, at least in terms of the objec- Times poll stated that 43% of people in their 50s tives — to be debated in a way that does not gen- said they would like to work beyond the age of erate either disagreement within the Houses or 65. disagreement through misunderstanding or malicious representation outside the Houses. The Mr. Lydon: Especially Senators. best way to calm such matters is to leave sufficient time for debate and not give the Ms White: At a time when there is a shortage impression that the process is being rushed. of skills, we are letting skilled people leave the workforce. I have received numerous telephone Dr. Mansergh: We all expressed concern earl- calls and letters from people whose hearts are ier this week about how we might mitigate the broken and who are fit, healthy and are able to impact of global warming. We must also pay do their jobs but who are being told to retire at 65 some attention to mitigating the impact of such years of age. Many of them work in this building. global warming as will happen in any case. Last This year Senator Maurice Hayes will be 80 summer’s so-called drought led to significant and years of age. Think of what the Seanad would be like without his wisdom. The Cathaoirleach will still ongoing water supply problems in high-lying be 73 years of age in May and his discerning areas. We would be outraged if there were power diplomacy—— cuts every day, often lasting several hours, in var- ious areas throughout the State. That is what is An Cathaoirleach: I am very well aware of that. happening in regard to water supply, which is a basic need of life. Mr. Norris: Will the Senator reveal her own I am aware that the various local authorities age? are working hard on the problem. I refer not only to group water schemes but also public water sup- Ms White: I congratulate the Cathaoirleach. ply. We must raise this issue up the national pol- The point is that politicians do not have to retire, itical agenda. People ought to have the same right so why should people in the public and private to uninterrupted water supply as they have to sectors have to do so? 1819 Order of 7 February 2007. Business 1820

An Cathaoirleach: That was very eloquently patients were lucky to have him. That is an put. insulting approach, shows a total lack of moral courage and is the old boy network in practice. Mr. Norris: Since the House is in such good humour, should we not recognise what a beautiful An Cathaoirleach: There are many Senators day it is and what a relief it is in a period of global offering and I would like a bit of brevity, if pos- warming to see a bit of ice, frost and snow? I sible, so I can accommodate them all. agree with Senator Mansergh that we should be very concerned about climate change and that is Mr. Morrissey: It is now 12 months since Trans- why I have a number of items on the Order Paper port 21 was approved by this Government. It is in that regard. I hope that at some appropriate also more than 12 months — December 2005, I time this issue will discussed in some detail. It is believe — since the Minister for Transport was worrying when one sees the way political leaders last in this House. tack into the wind. It is not very dignifying to see Ms Merkel, for example, championing the auto- Mr. Ross: Do not bring him back. mobile industry of her country while holding the Presidency of the EU. We would give a lead if Mr. Morrissey: I would like a number of issues the Oireachtas required all its joint committees to addressed. Before Christmas, we were promised have an environmental audit because so much of legislation on the setting up of the transport auth- the work we do has, in one way or another, an ority for the greater Dublin area. A head of the environmental impact. authority, which was announced nine months ago, I laugh when I hear people talk about the water has not even been appointed. Only yesterday, I supply and so on. This is a damp little island and received a letter from Dublin Bus stating that it we are subjected to perpetual deluges of rain. It had now secured a timetable for the train service is a simple problem of bad management and the to Donabate and that it would endeavour to serve sooner the county councils and other authorities commuters there. One would hardly believe wake up to this and do their jobs, as they are Dublin Bus and Iarnro´ dE´ ireann were part of the supposed to, the better. same organisation since 1932. They can behave I disagree with my colleague, Senator O’Toole. like that because they have a monopoly. Everybody does not agree there should be an What is happening with the State Airports Bill? amendment protecting the rights of children in We do not know what is happening in Shannon the Constitution. I do not; I never have. It is not Airport nor do we know who will pay for Cork because I am inimical to the rights of children but Airport. because this is another fudge. What we want is an article guaranteeing the rights of the individual. Under Transport 21, ports were transferred to Let us have that instead of this gimmicky politics the Department of Transport. We have not coming up to a general election trying to senti- received a statement on why that happened and mentalise the issue and get votes. Let us address on the policy direction. There is a very clear com- the real issues of equality and copperfasten, as mitment in the national development plan that a they did in the 1916 Proclamation, the rights of study will be done on the location of Dublin Port, the individual. yet it has stated it wants to increase its size. Can we have a debate on the health service which does not only involve scoring party politi- An Cathaoirleach: I have allowed the Senator cal points, because we really need to look at the good latitude. issue? Yesterday, the issue of MRSA was raised. Today, we hear there is no hot water in unit 3 of Mr. Morrissey: There is a conflict there and it the James Connolly Memorial Hospital. How can is time the Minister came to the House to outline we expect people to wash, or be washed, if there his plans. is no hot water? There is no signing facility for patients who are deaf. They cannot explain their Mr. Cummins: In 1984, following the collapse symptoms. Worst of all, the situation of Mr. of PMPA, the Government introduced a 2% levy Neary is yet again to the fore. We have been very on all insurance policies. I understand PMPA’s badly let down by the medical profession. debts were paid off in 1993, yet since then, we have continued to pay a 2% levy on all our An Cathaoirleach: The Senator’s point has insurance policies. Where does this money go? been eloquently made. Has it been ring-fenced for some purpose? When will this 2% levy, which is another stealth tax, be Mr. Norris: I want to finish this point. The abolished? I understand that in 2005, in excess of report spoke of collegiality and compassion. \76 million was collected from this 2% levy from Those qualities were not shown to the patients all who pay insurance policies. Questions must be but to the doctor who has been found unfit to answered in this regard. Members need to know practice. Three of the most eminent doctors in where this money has gone, whether it has been this country would have sent that man back with ring-fenced for any purpose and when will the a clean bill of health and a note stating the levy be abolished. 1821 Order of Business 7 February 2007. (Resumed) 1822

Mr. Dooley: I support the calls to the Acting I understand that a referendum will be held Leader for a debate on the State Airports Bill. It and I completely agree with the point made in should be discussed at the earliest possible oppor- the House today by Senator O’Toole. This House tunity because its provisions, which set out a is the forum in which the matter should be dis- requirement to agree business plans, have not yet cussed in the coming months, rather than spring- been reached and unfortunately, Shannon Air- ing a referendum on citizens without anyone hav- port and the other airports are suffering as a ing the time to understand the details. result. Regrettably, the management of the Dublin Airport Authority is still actively involved Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. in the day to day running of Shannon, as it has completely lost the workers’ goodwill through its Mr. Quinn: It horrifies me to think that party change management process. A recent ballot on political divisions might arise in this regard as this the proposals was rejected out of hand. However, should not be the case. If it pertains to the protec- the Dublin Airport Authority management has tion of children or the protection of individuals, made no approach to work through a plan that as Senator Norris noted, this is the place in which will benefit the region and the entire west. Some the issue should be debated. Members should outdated thinking underlying the Bill’s provisions find time to so do, rather than rushing ahead with may need to be addressed and I would welcome a referendum. a debate in this regard. Mr. Mooney: In keeping with Senator Norris’s I also wish to refer to some of the health pro- good-humoured comments on the weather, I am visions that have been discussed and in particular sure all Members will agree to congratulate him to the lack of occupational and speech and langu- on a wonderful manifestation of youthful exuber- age therapists in the mid-west region, ance, as he caught frisbees in Trinity College. 11 o’clock which has lagged behind every other My question—— district in Ireland and possibly every other district in the Western world. At present, An Cathaoirleach: I seek brevity from Senator an outrageous situation exists in respect of elderly Mooney. people who require the services of an occu- pational therapist in order to be provided with Mr. Mooney: I appreciate that. My aids to living at home. I refer to basic facilities question—— such as extended toilet seats to allow those with mobility difficulties to be able to use sanitary An Cathaoirleach: It should be relevant to the facilities. It is appalling that elderly people are so Order of Business. treated and it reflects poorly on the HSE that it is unable to apportion its services in a manner Mr. Mooney: I merely responded to—— that does not detract from the mid-west. This issue must be addressed. An Cathaoirleach: There is no need to respond. Senator Mooney, on the Order of Business.

Visit of Slovak Delegation. Mr. Mooney: I thought the Cathaoirleach An Cathaoirleach: Before calling the next would have agreed with this. speaker, I am sure Members wish to join me in welcoming Mr. Pavol Pas˘ka, Speaker of the An Cathaoirleach: Other Members are offering National Council of the Slovak Republic, and his to contribute. fellow parliamentarians to this House. On my Mr. Mooney: I fully understand that and fully own behalf and on behalf of my colleagues in agree with the Cathaoirleach’s ruling. Conse- Seanad E´ ireann, I extend a warm welcome to quently, I will try to be as brief as possible. them, as well as good wishes for a successful visit. I ask the Acting Leader to consider having a debate on dormant accounts. The reason is that I Order of Business (Resumed). am beginning to have some concerns about ques- Mr. Quinn: I believe Edmund Burke stated tions of accountability, mainly because—— that for evil to thrive, all it needs is for good men to remain silent. I mention this because of the Mr. Finucane: Fine Gael has always called it a courage and bravery of a young woman from the slush fund. Congo that was reported in the newspapers yes- Mr. Feighan: Does this refer to opening terday. She gave evidence of an outrageous accounts? assault that she had endured for a number of years, having been brought into Ireland by the An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. perpetrator. I raise this matter because the young woman in question was only 15 years old and it Mr. Norris: Dormant. would have been very easy for her to stay silent. I gather that a large number of young people do An Cathaoirleach: Senator Mooney, without so under similar circumstances. interruption. 1823 Order of Business 7 February 2007. (Resumed) 1824

Mr. Mooney: This is mainly for two reasons. for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, First, as all those who receive details on dormant Deputy O´ Cuı´v, to merge the partnership and accounts whenever new measures are introduced Leader programmes around the country. I men- are aware, enormous sums of money are tion this because in my own locality, the Arigna involved. Leader programme has been highly influential in ensuring that development was secured for the Mr. U. Burke: It is solely at the discretion of area. the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht It is said that this is Ireland of the welcomes Affairs, Eamon O´ Cuı´v. and each day one hears of Ministers welcoming grants of \10,000 and \5,000, etc. However, in this Mr. Mooney: Second, a measure is being intro- instance I asked for proper consultations for duced at present which appears to overlap across transparency and accountability. It is clear that a variety of different Departments on a national the news is not good regarding the Arigna Leader and local basis. I refer to a scheme for sports programme, which serves County Leitrim as well equipment for socially and economically dis- as north-western Roscommon very well. I ask advantaged areas to which one can apply. A total that the Minister for Community, Rural and of \2 million has been set aside nationally. While Gaeltacht Affairs should come before the House I consider that to be a paltry sum of money, and explain the reason that staff from his Depart- someone somewhere made that decision. In real ment asked members of the Arigna Leader prog- terms, the amount involved for County Leitrim is ramme for a two-week confidentiality clause. This \12,000 each in respect of the youth and sports is extremely serious. sides of the scheme. Initially, the Department of Education and Science was responsible for imple- An Cathaoirleach: I am aware it is serious. menting the scheme and forms were issued. However, County Leitrim VEC subsequently dis- Mr. Feighan: How dare the Minister—— covered that the Department was passing it on to the local partnership bodies where such bodies An Cathaoirleach: This could be a matter for exist. In the case of County Leitrim, none exists the Adjournment. as yet and it was obliged to prepare a new form. Finally, the closing dates differed and the appli- Mr. Feighan: I want the Minister to come cants were then informed that henceforth, Pobal before the House in order that I may ask him would be responsible for the transmission and how, effectively, he could gag members of the investigation of these claims. Arigna Leader programme with a confidentiality clause. It is clear that the Government only An Cathaoirleach: Perhaps the Senator could makes announcements when the news is good. bring it up as an Adjournment matter. When the news is bad, it gags the people.

Mr. Mooney: I appreciate that. However, I Members: Hear, hear. thought this would be a useful exercise because of the enormous sums of money involved and the Mr. Feighan: This does not constitute fairness, fact there are some obvious sceptics on the other openness and transparency. I ask the Minister to side of the House, who wrongly believe the come before the House—— money is probably being misappropriated. I do not suggest this for one moment and do not An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has made his believe this to be the case. I simply suggest that point effectively. it might be instructive and educational for the rel- evant Minister, who in this case is the Minister Members: Hear, hear. for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy O´ Cuı´v, to come before the House to Ms Ormonde: I wish to make a few points in provide it with a review. support of Senator O’Toole’s comments regard- ing the removal of children by their parents from An Cathaoirleach: The Senator has an oppor- school off-season to avail of low fares and special tunity for doing this by raising the matter on the offers from airlines. While a standardised mid- Adjournment. term break was introduced to prevent such actions, it is creeping in again. Many parents and Mr. Mooney: I suggested he should come teachers have expressed concern regarding the before the House to provide a review of the flow of young people from schools at crucial scheme in order that there could be a debate as times to facilitate the airlines in respect of low to how the dormant accounts system is working. fares. The Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism I add and emphasise that I do not suggest there should enter into discussions on this subject is anything amiss. However, there are questions because it is having a highly negative impact on about accountability. education, particularly at a time when children are preparing for mock examinations, etc. Mr. Feighan: Almost 12 months ago I raised my concerns about the decision by the Minister An Cathaoirleach: Order, please. 1825 Order of Business 7 February 2007. (Resumed) 1826

Ms Ormonde: I ask the Acting Leader to ask before the House and be up front and level with the Minister to investigate this concern. Parents us. In Killarney, the greater part of the town on and teachers are highly concerned about it. the eastern side where the bulk of the population lives lost its post office. It closed a week ago with An Cathaoirleach: I ask for less noise while no plans for a replacement. Are pensioners and Members are speaking. social welfare recipients expected to go online with bank accounts? It is farcical. Mr. U. Burke: I support Senator Norris in his call for a debate on health as quickly as possible. Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. We are fully aware of the problems in the health service. We hear about them every day in the Mr. Coghlan: It is not possible. This matter media. However, the health service reached a needs our urgent attention. new low as the HSE initiated measures to restrict the availability of drugs to Irish patients due to Mr. Glynn: I support my colleagues who their costs. This is new and dangerous. The Mini- referred to the Dr. Neary case. It was an oppor- ster and the HSE based this new tactic on a Brit- tunity lost, which is extremely regrettable. The ish model treated with derision throughout fitness to practice committee of any profession Europe, yet here we are following it. exists to ensure the integrity and standing of that An eminent cancer specialist in St. Vincent’s profession is protected. I hasten to add I worked Hospital, Dublin stated one of his patients was with many fine consultants. This was terrible and refused an approved treatment because of the poured mud on what was already an extremely cost of the drugs. We were accustomed to hurtful and traumatic situation for many young obtaining the best possible drugs under the GMS women who were denied their right as women to scheme. This new model adopted mimics the Brit- bring children into the world. I will not labour the ish system already proven a failure. If a drug suit- point as everybody knows what I am talking able for treatment for a cancer patient is denied about. due to its cost, it is time for the Minister to con- I support what Senator Scanlon stated on sider her position. nurses. A number of groups were catered for out- side the benchmarking process. The nursing pro- Mr. Scanlon: It is not often I agree with fession is the only group which does not work a Senator Ryan. However, on this occasion I agree 35 hour week. It is not my business here to with his call for a debate in the House on the indulge in industrial relations. However, fair play issues facing nurses. Two weeks ago, I met rep- comes into focus. resentatives of the INO and the Psychiatric Ms Feeney: I support what Senator Glynn Nurses Association, PNA. Last Friday, at their stated. I congratulate the Medical Council on its invitation I met approximately 100 nurses in finding of professional misconduct against the groups and individually at Sligo General three consultant obstetricians. I was astonished at Hospital. the one-line statement in this morning’s news- We face a serious problem as nurses feel papers. The so-called “three wise men” state they ignored, demoralised and neglected. Two issues are bitterly disappointed with the finding and find are raised, pay and the number of hours worked. it fundamentally wrong. They have no regard or The problem with hours should have been dealt thought for the—— with through benchmarking but has not. It is important to debate this matter. One nurse I met An Cathaoirleach: We cannot discuss what has small children and works a four-day week. they stated.

An Cathaoirleach: The Senator does not need Ms Feeney: As somebody who sat on the Neary to go into full detail. inquiry, I have first-hand knowledge which I put on the record of the House. This statement rubs Mr. Scanlon: It is important and I wish to make salt into festering wounds. the point. I thank the Cathaoirleach for his time. The lady works a four-day week and should work Mr. Norris: Well said. 34 hours. However, she works 40 hours. Nurses do not get paid overtime. No nurse I spoke to Ms Feeney: To me, it states they find nothing finishes work on time. They are supposed to get wrong with their finding the man not guilty of hours back in lieu. However, this might happen wrongdoing when all the rest of us found him six months later. We must deal with the issue and guilty. I query their judgment and the type of the sooner the better. minds they have. I will go so far as to state I hope when the Medical Practitioners Bill comes before Mr. Coghlan: The closure of post offices raised the House each of us, regardless of what side of by my colleague, Senator Finucane, is a national the fence we are on, will be mindful of this. I also disaster. What is being planned now that will not hope we will be at one with the Minister for be revealed until further down the line? As Health and Children, Deputy Harney, on dealing Senator Finucane stated, the Minister must come with the consultant contract and support her. 1827 Order of Business 7 February 2007. (Resumed) 1828

[Ms Feeney.] Senator O’Toole referred to low air fares, also Once and for all it must be about public safety mentioned by Senator Ormonde. It is unfortunate and the care of patients and not about col- that attractive deals are offered during term time, legiality. meaning parents who wish to avail of them must take their children out of school rather than wait Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : In recent times, a story until school holidays. Senator O’Toole said that from St. Louis attracted world headlines. A was the way the market worked. I will bring the young man was abducted several years ago and matter to the attention of the Minister and tell presumed dead. Through vigilance and good him the House wishes him to speak with the rel- police work he was found alive and returned to evant travel agencies. I saw one offer last week his family. We are all aware that many Irish of an apartment for \43 per night, offered by a families had a keen interest in this story. They are well-known insurance company in Spain, which in a living hell as they also have loved ones who included breakfast and seemed extraordinarily are missing. One can only imagine the nightmare attractive. Those of us of a certain age can of not knowing whether they are alive, dead or remember when the standard excuse for not suffering. We all hear their isolated calls for help being in school was that a child was working in and see their messages at railway stations and the garden. I am sure there are now other, more bus stops. up to date excuses. At present, we are not pro-active in helping Senator O’Toole asked about the possibility of them. It is wrong to presume those missing per- a break of a half an hour but it is very unlikely sons are dead. We need a dedicated Garda unit that Committee Stage of the Broadcasting with proper resources to pursue these cases. I am (Amendment) Bill 2006 will conclude before 5 convinced many missing persons may be alive and p.m. If it were to conclude before 4.30 p.m. we a possibility exists that we could have another would certainly take a break of a half an hour. good news story like that in St. Louis. If that requires an amendment to the Order of Business I will propose it. Mr. Dardis: Senator Brian Hayes together with I will convey Senator Ryan’s good wishes to Senators O’Toole, Ryan, Norris and Quinn raised the Fianna Fa´il press office. the proposed amendment to the Constitution to embody children’s rights. I was a member of the Mr. Ryan: I thank the Deputy Leader. all-party committee which considered the matter at great length. Everybody regarded what we Mr. Dardis: I am sure it will be delighted to came up with as something to which every party hear them. Senators Ryan, Scanlon and Glynn could subscribe. It is worth stating extensive con- raised the grievances of nurses. There is no con- sultation took place. Many groups came before flict between the Taoiseach and the Minister for the committee and put their points of view to Health and Children and the Government is at which we listened. I am not sure whether a White one on the issue. The Government is bound by Paper would add much to those consultations. social partnership and agreements made under it Perhaps the greater consultation which now takes so there is no room for discretion in the matter. I place explains why there has been a reduction in am not aware of things having been done outside White Papers on this and other issues in recent benchmarking and the Labour Court recom- years. I agree with Senator Norris that there is mended it be resolved within benchmarking. I see not unanimity on the matter but there is a wide no reason, however, we cannot debate the matter consensus. I do not agree with his remarks on the and I am sure the Minister will agree to come into rights of the individual. The importance of chil- the House to do so. dren being specifically referred to in the Consti- Senator Ryan referred to the situation in Pales- tution was clear to the committee—— tine, where there is effectively a civil war. We hope Hamas and Fatah will agree a modus Mr. Norris: That is not an answer. operandi going forward but that may be hoping for too much. However, we will keep the situation Mr. Dardis: ——as was their being given spec- to the forefront of this House. The Senator also ific protection. I take Senator Quinn’s point that raised No. 2. It is unlikely it will terminate it required enormous courage on the part of the because to do so would require a motion to be Senegalese girl to come forward. One hopes there tabled to that effect by 1 p.m. but I will clarify are protections for girls in such circumstances. the matter. She was vindicated by the law but one can Senators Mansergh and Norris spoke about the imagine other cases where a constitutional pro- effect of global warming on the water supply. vision would be important. I agree with the prop- Senator Mansergh made a good point about osition that the matter be debated in the House water supply, an essential service. A number of and we will try to arrange it. It is hoped to bring places, not on very high ground, have experi- a proposed wording to Cabinet in the near future enced serious service disruptions. We are taking to dispose of the matter by referendum as quickly so much out of the River Liffey at present that as possible, though I cannot anticipate how that the sustainability of the river is in doubt. We must will develop. find the additional water services for the extra 1829 Order of Business 7 February 2007. (Resumed) 1830

90,000 houses we build each year. My own view, Mr. Dardis: That is undesirable and should not not supported widely, is that water should be happen. Hopefully the legislation going through taken from the Shannon. I suggested that 20 years at present will deal with such issues. I bow to ago and the county engineer in Kildare told me Senator Feeney’s knowledge on these matters it could not be done. A report then came out stat- because she has a great deal of expertise in the ing it could be done. We have a wayleave all area and I agree with her comments on con- along the canal and could bring a pipe to Dublin sultants. without having to acquire land. I do not, there- Senator Dooley raised the paucity of occu- fore, see why it cannot be done. We are not short pational therapists but I do not know the answer. of water but have plenty. Senator Ulick Burke questioned the availability of drugs. My hospital once prescribed a specific Mr. Norris: Exactly. drug for me but my general practitioner pre- scribed a generic, which is much cheaper. That is Mr. Dardis: Senators Finucane and Coghlan not to say anybody should be denied a drug that raised the potential closure of post offices and I can be sourced more cheaply elsewhere but it have some sympathy with their point of view. merits a debate. Senator Finucane asked for a debate on the Senator Morrissey asked about Transport 21 matter and we will consider it. Grocery shops are and the State Airports Bill, as did Senator closing down, as well as other shops, in many Dooley. We will try to find out when the Bill is cases because of modern living but I have a great deal of sympathy with the point made regarding due before this House. access for pensioners. Senator Cummins asked about the 2% levy on Senator White asked for a debate on manda- insurance policies. I cannot answer the specific tory retirement and I agree fully with her. We will question but will try to ascertain the facts. On the need more people in the labour force and many face of it, the levy seems inappropriate. In pass- people are very active after the age of 65 and ing, I compliment Senator O’Toole on the should be utilised if they wish to work. Retire- achievement of the Personal Injuries Assessment ment should be voluntary but they should be Board, which an independent study found has allowed to work if they wish. There is a degree of saved \24 million in legal fees in the past year, ageism in society but a person who survives until which is expected to rise to \48 million this year. the age of 60 has a good chance of surviving until Senator Mooney asked about dormant the age of 90. Many active people would be accounts but I am not aware of the specific details delighted to work and the Senator makes a good of the situation in Leitrim. We will see if we can point. arrange a debate on the accounts generally. Senators Norris, Glynn, Feeney, Dooley and Senator Feighan queried the merging of the Ulick Burke referred to the health service. I partnership and Leader programmes, the latter of heard on the radio about the failure of the show- which has been one of the great successes in rural ers at James Connolly Memorial Hospital, which Ireland. I am aware of the particularly good job is appalling and underlines a feature of the public Arigna has done in that part of the country. We service, that it exists to serve itself rather than will try to get specific answers. its clients. Senator O´ Murchu´ asked about missing per- sons and referred to the experience in St. Louis. Mr. Ryan: That is not fair to the public service. I know of two Irish people who have not been found. The suggestion of a special unit to deal Mr. Dardis: I am talking about the way it is with the matter is a good one. administered.

Mr. Ryan: It is the fault of management. An Cathaoirleach: Is the Acting Leader pro- posing an amendment to the Order of Business Mr. Dardis: It seems that to replace a washer regarding No. 2, Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill on a shower one must put an advertisement in 2006 — Committee Stage, to be taken at 2.30 p.m. the paper through the European procurement and to conclude no later than 5 p.m., to the effect system. It would have been done overnight 20 that were it to conclude sooner—— years ago and we will have to look at that issue fairly seriously. We will try to arrange a debate Mr. Dardis: If Committee Stage were to con- on medical services. clude before 4.30 p.m., we would take a sos of The Irish Medical Council has made its adjudi- half an hour. cation in the Dr. Neary case and has registered a finding of misconduct, with no further sanctions An Cathaoirleach: Will the Statute Law to follow. It underlines the questionable practice Revision Bill 2007 be taken on another day? of people’s peers adjudicating on their competence. Mr. B. Hayes: It is set for 7 p.m.

Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. Mr. Dardis: It would not be affected. 1831 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1832

An Cathaoirleach: Private Members’ business Mr. B. Hayes: And see how we go. is set for 5 p.m. and the House will have half an hour—— An Cathaoirleach: The Acting Leader has pro- posed an amendment to the Order of Business: Mr. Dardis: To clarify, Private Members’ busi- “That the House suspend until 5 p.m. upon the ness will start at 5 p.m., but if Committee Stage completion prior to 4.30 p.m of No. 2 on the of the previous item were to conclude before 4.30 Order Paper.” Is it agreed? Agreed. p.m., we would have a sos of half an hour before resuming at 5 p.m. Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.

An Cathaoirleach: I apologise, but I want to be Citizens Information Bill 2006: Second Stage. clear. If Committee Stage concludes at 4.15 p.m., will the House return at 4.45 p.m.? Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read a Second Time.” Mr. Dardis: We will suspend. Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mr. An Cathaoirleach: Will we suspend for half an Brennan): The Citizens Information Bill 2006 is a hour or until 5 p.m.? key element of the Government’s national dis- ability strategy and is designed to ensure that Mr. Lydon: Just suspend it. people with disabilities are supported to enable them, as far as possible, to lead full and indepen- An Cathaoirleach: Order. I am asking the Act- dent lives, to reach their full potential as individ- ing Leader. uals and to participate fully in society. The Bill provides for a number of important changes to Mr. Dardis: If Committee Stage concludes the Comhairle Act 2000 to strengthen the func- early, we will suspend the House until 5 p.m. tions of the statutory body in the provision of high quality information, advice, awareness and An Cathaoirleach: It does not state when the advocacy as part of the delivery of a new seamless Statute Law Revision Bill will be taken. and customer friendly national information service under one easily accessible and visible Mr. B. Hayes: It will be taken after Private brand of citizens information. Member’s business at 7 p.m. With the Disability Act 2005, the accompanying sectoral plans and the Education Mr. Dardis: No. 4 is to be taken on the con- for Persons with Special Educational Needs Act clusion of the previous business, No. 24, motion 2004, this Bill demonstrates clearly the Govern- No. 37. ment’s intention to have an effective combination of legislation, policies, institutions and services in An Cathaoirleach: I apologise. Will it go on place to ensure equal access to services and full indefinitely? participation in everyday life for people with dis- abilities. Mr. Dardis: No. The primary purpose of the Bill is to amend the Comhairle Act 2000 to enhance the functions Mr. Minihan: It will conclude at 8.30 p.m. of the statutory body in supporting the develop- ment of advocacy services, particularly for people Mr. Finucane: The Acting Leader should clar- with disabilities. Most importantly, the Bill pro- ify the matter. vides for the introduction of a personal advocacy service for certain people with disabilities who Mr. Dardis: According to what I have before would otherwise have difficulty in getting access me, No. 4 is open-ended. to the services available to assist them. The sub- An Cathaoirleach: Could it go until 12 a.m.? stance of the Bill provides for matters such as the qualifying conditions for eligibility for the assign- Mr. Dardis: Apparently so. ment of a personal advocate, how the service is to be organised, the responsibility of the personal Mr. B. Hayes: May I offer the Acting Leader a advocates, the application process, an indepen- suggestion? In the provisional Order, the Statute dent appeals system and related matters to ensure Law Revision Bill will be taken after the con- that the new service is placed on a sound footing. clusion of Private Members’ business until 8.30 Under the provisions of the Bill, the name of p.m. Comhairle, which was established in 2000 with responsibility for the direct provision of indepen- Mr. Dardis: That is correct. dent information and advice services on social services to the public, will be changed to the Citi- Mr. Finucane: We will stick to that. zens Information Board or An Bord um Fhaisne´is do Shaora´naigh. Other provisions include a An Cathaoirleach: We will amend the Order definition of social services in section 2 of the of Business. Comhairle Act 2000 to include a broad range of 1833 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1834 social and civil services provided to the public and The Citizens Information Bill 2006 envisages the expansion of the definition of a voluntary advocacy services as supporting people with dis- body to include citizen information centres, a abilities in identifying and understanding their number of amendments to section 7 of the Comh- needs and options and in securing their entitle- airle Act to strengthen the board’s role in sup- ments to social services. In its broad sense, advo- porting and developing the provision of infor- cacy is a traditional concept linked to the notion mation on social services and the work of the of the citizen taking responsibility not only for citizen information centres and other voluntary him or herself but also for his or her neighbour. bodies throughout the country and amendments It is not to be confused with the giving of infor- to section 9 of the Comhairle Act to change the mation or the offering of advice per se, although size and the term of office of the board in order both functions are aspects of the advocate’s role. to provide for improved operational efficiency Advocacy is something that many people daily do and to allow for greater continuity in the leader- for others. Parents advocate for their children and ship of the organisation to the benefit of local relatives and friends speak on behalf of vulner- services relying on its support. able persons when necessary. Public representa- The information elements of the Bill are tives do it all the time and, indeed, those present designed to deliver and meet the needs of a in this House today can speak from personal dramatically changing and evolving 21st century experience in that regard. To put it simply, it is Irish society in which the delivery of independent, the act of supporting or speaking up for someone. quality, accurate and integrated information is a To put it more formally, it is a dynamic process priority, including meeting the challenge of immi- of negotiation conducted by or on behalf of an gration from new EU member states and else- individual who is marginalised in some way. where. The Citizens Information Bill, combined The proposed service, as set out in the Bill, will with the implementation plan set out in Comh- provide for the assignment of a personal advocate airle’s 2006-09 strategic plan, represents a major to assist, support and represent a person with a overhaul and modernisation of the provision of disability in applying for and obtaining social services and in pursuing any right of review or information on social services and will deliver an appeal in connection with those services. It is integrated and seamless supply of high quality envisaged that the arrangements for the new per- and independent information to the entire popu- sonal advocacy service will be completed without lation and, in particular, those in society who are delay when the legislation is in place. most vulnerable and in need of support. The board of Comhairle has undertaken a sig- The provision of independent, clear and access- nificant amount of work in preparation for the ible information has a central role in helping to introduction of the new personal advocacy break down barriers, easing anxieties, opening up service. Two important studies have informed this opportunities and clearing the way for citizens, work and provide the basis for the legislative pro- particularly those who are most vulnerable in visions in the Citizens Information Bill. society, to improve their situations and build In October 2005, Comhairle published guide- better lives. lines to inform and guide the development of Before I outline the provisions of the Bill, I advocacy services by community and voluntary wish to acknowledge the significant increase in organisations. In tandem with the guidelines, I funding for disability support services provided launched a programme of funding amounting to by the Government in recent years. Under the \2 million for advocacy projects in that sector. At \ national disability plan, some 19.2 million will the end of 2006, 31 projects were in place. Each be invested in providing quality services and project employs an advocate to work with people opportunities for people with disabilities. In 2005, with disabilities in accessing a range of different almost \3 billion was spent on addressing dis- services to help them achieve their personal ability issues. This figure does not include the \2 objectives. Other work undertaken in preparation billion plus spent by my Department in 2006 on for the introduction of the advocacy service on a income supports and entitlements for people with statutory basis includes the production of a disabilities or illnesses and their carers. The sig- resource pack for the new advocacy projects, nificant real increases to social welfare rates in training and networking days and support for a recent years underlines my Department’s position higher certificate course in advocacy studies at the forefront in providing for the income sup- accredited through Sligo Institute of Technology. port and other needs of people with disabilities. I will now outline for the House the contents There is an important link between the pro- of the Bill. Sections 1 and 2 provide for the usual vision of information and advocacy in that access definitions of the terms used in the Bill. The to information and a range of options flowing definition of disability is that used in the Dis- from that information are two key aspects of ability Act 2005. Section 2 amends the definition empowerment and citizenship. That is partic- of a voluntary body in the Comhairle Act to ularly relevant to the functions of the newly include citizens information services and citizens named citizens information board in the pro- information centres. My purpose here is to vision of enhanced services for people with dis- provide statutory recognition for the citizens abilities. information centres which comprise the primary 1835 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1836

[Mr. Brennan.] service shall be set out by the board; for the channel through which the citizens information appointment by the board of a director of the board will provide information to the public. This personal advocacy service who will manage the section also includes the definition of social personal advocacy service; and for the qualifying services, which will underpin the board’s work in criteria to be satisfied by a person to have a per- the provision of information about entitlements sonal advocate assigned to him or her. and public services. Social services are broadly The legislation provides that a qualifying per- defined in the section and include health, social son, in the case of a person 18 years of age or welfare, education, family support, housing, tax- older, is a person who, in the opinion of the direc- ation, citizenship, employment and training, tor, is unable to obtain or has difficulty in equality, asylum and immigration. obtaining a social service without the support of Section 3 provides for the change of name from a personal advocate because of his or her dis- Comhairle to Citizens Information Board or An ability. The director must also be of the view that Bord um Fhaisne´is do Shaora´naigh. My objective there are reasonable grounds for believing that here is to have the citizens information board and there is a risk to the person’s health, welfare or the voluntary bodies providing information safety if he or she is not provided with the social services, particularly the citizens information service in question. A person under 18 years of centres, readily identifiable by the public as part age may qualify for a personal advocate if his or of one overall, coherent brand in the provision her sole parent or guardian is a qualifying person of State-funded information services in matters of or if he or she has a disability and, in the circum- civil rights and entitlements. stances of the case, it would be unreasonable to Section 4 amends section 7 of the Comhairle expect a parent or guardian to act on his or her Act 2000. It provides for a number of changes to behalf to obtain the social service without the the functions of the statutory body, in particular, assistance of a personal advocate. The new to provide greater support for people with dis- section 7A(4) also provides that a person will not abilities. These include a function for the board be disqualified for the assignment of a personal to support the provision of advocacy services in advocate if he or she is already getting a social the community and voluntary sector for people service. with disabilities; the introduction by the citizens Section 7A(5) sets out how the board will information board of a personal advocacy service prioritise the assignment of personal advocates to for people with disabilities who meet the criteria people who qualify for the service. The process of qualifying persons for the service; a function will take account of factors such as the needs of for the board to support and develop greater the person to have a personal advocate assigned accessibility and public awareness of the social to him or her, the benefits likely to accrue to him services available to people; and a remit to pro- or her by the assignment of the personal advocate mote the provision of integrated information and any risk of harm to health or well-being that about those services by voluntary and statutory may arise if he or she cannot obtain the services bodies. The provisions state that the board, in sought. providing the personal advocacy service for Section 7A(10) provides that any person who people with disabilities, shall have regard to the has an interest in or who is involved in the wel- financial resources available to it and whether fare or well-being of a person with a disability advocacy services are available to the person in and who is of the view that the person may be the community or elsewhere. entitled to a personal advocate may approach the In addition, section 4 inserts into section 7 of personal advocacy service and tell it about the the Comhairle Act new provisions to enable the individual concerned. It also provides that where citizens information board to set terms and con- the director or a member of the staff of the citi- ditions for voluntary bodies seeking funding and zens information board involved in the personal to promote the development of high quality stan- advocacy service is informed about a person who dards in the provision of information to the may be entitled to a personal advocate, he or she public. The effect of the provisions is that volun- shall arrange for information about the service to tary bodies that seek funding may be asked to be provided to the person. The section also pro- demonstrate how they will pursue quality service vides that the Minister may make regulations for objectives and funding may be refused if the body incidental or supplementary matters that may concerned fails to supply the board with the infor- arise to give effect to these provisions. mation requested. The new section 7B of the Comhairle Act Section 5 provides for the details of the per- details the arrangements for making application sonal advocacy service by inserting in section 7 of to the personal advocacy service for the assign- the Comhairle Act a number of new provisions ment of a personal advocate and for the decision — sections 7A to 7F. The new section 7A pro- process relating to applications. It sets out that vides for the designation of persons as personal any person may apply to the director for the advocates by the chief executive officer of the assignment of a personal advocate on behalf of a citizens information board; that the qualifications, person with a disability. It states that an applicant experience and competencies required to be a may appeal against a decision of the director of personal advocate of the personal advocacy the personal advocacy service if he or she is not 1837 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1838 satisfied with the decision about qualification for liable to have proceedings taken against him or the service. It also provides for a reversal of a her. decision to refuse the assignment of a personal The new section 7F of the Comhairle Act 2000 advocate in the light of new evidence or if a mis- provides that the citizens information board may take is made about the facts. arrange for the functions of personal advocates to The new section 7C of the Comhairle Act sets be performed by persons other than members of out the arrangements for a person to make an the staff of the board, as it considers appropriate. appeal against a decision that he or she is not Such a move by the board would be subject to qualified for the assignment of a personal advo- the approval of the Minister for Social and cate. The section provides, in effect, that the Family Affairs. social welfare appeals rules and procedures which Sections 6 and 7 of the Citizens Information are detailed in the Social Welfare Consolidation Bill provide for changes to the term of office and Act 2005 will apply, in a modified form, to membership of the citizens information board. appeals involving the personal advocacy service. These changes are considered necessary in the An appeal against a decision may be lodged with light of operational experience since the board the chief appeals officer, either directly by the was first constituted in June 2000. Section 6 person concerned or by any other person on his amends section 9 of the Comhairle Act so that or her behalf. My objective is to ensure that the term of office of members of the board will people who are dissatisfied with the decision on be extended from three to five years and the their qualification for the assignment of a per- number of members of the citizens information sonal advocate have access to an impartial and board will be reduced from 20 to 15. This independent appeals system. The social welfare approach is in keeping with a general trend appeals office has a proven record in this regard towards smaller boards in respect of State agen- and is ideally positioned to meet the needs of cies. Of the other agencies under my Depart- people who seek the assistance of an advocate. ment’s aegis, the Pensions Board and the Combat The new section 7D of the Comhairle Act, sets Poverty Agency each has 16 members on its board, while the Family Support Agency has a 12 out the duties and responsibilities of the personal member board. This section provides for a conse- advocate. These are to assist, support and rep- quential adjustment to be made to the board aris- resent the qualified person in applying for and ing from the reduction to 15 members. The obtaining a social service, including an appli- number of members representing people with dis- cation for an assessment of need or a service abilities is being reduced from five to at least specified in a service statement under the Dis- three and, having regard to the Government’s ability Act 2005; to pursue any right of review or mainstreaming policy, the nominating role of the appeal on behalf of the qualified person; and to Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform in provide support and training to the qualified per- respect of these members is being removed. son, to any member of his or her family, a carer Section 7 of the Bill amends section 11 of the or any other person who represents the interests Comhairle Act and provides for a revised quorum of the person with a disability. This section for board meetings as a result of the reduction empowers a personal advocate acting on behalf from 20 to 15 members. The quorum is being of the person with a disability to enter any place reduced from 11 members to a number between that provides day care, residential care or training eight and five as may be considered appropriate for him or her and to represent his or her by the board. interests. It also provides that the personal advo- Section 8 amends section 23 of the Comhairle cate may, subject to data protection legislation, Act and pertains to the accountability of the chief access information and attend meetings or con- executive before the Committee of Public sultations on behalf of the person concerned. Accounts. The section brings the legislation in Section 7D(4) imposes an obligation on statu- line with current best practice by ensuring that tory or voluntary bodies to co-operate with a per- the chief executive will be accountable to the sonal advocate in the performance of his or her committee in similar terms to secretaries general functions on behalf of the person with a disability. of Departments. Subsections (5), (6) and (7) of section 7D set out Section 9 provides for the insertion of a new the offences to apply to persons who obstruct or section 24A in the Comhairle Act. It provides hinder a personal advocate in that context. that the Minister for Social and Family Affairs Section 7E provides that where an offence may issue policy directions to the citizens infor- under section 7D(5) is committed by a body cor- mation board, including directions to directly porate and where the offence is proved to have undertake information campaigns on specific arisen because of the action or inaction of an indi- social services. vidual connected with that body, the individual Section 10 sets out the standard provisions and the body corporate shall be guilty of the relating to short title and collective citation. It offence. The section further provides that where also provides for the commencement arrange- the body corporate is managed by its members ments for the implementation of the Bill’s pro- and the offence is attributable to a member in a visions with different commencement dates management role, he or she shall be guilty and applying to different sections of the Bill. 1839 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1840

[Mr. Brennan.] ability Authority and Inclusion Ireland. The The introduction of the personal advocacy service aims to ensure equal access to services service by the citizens information board is an and supports for people with disabilities. important priority in my Department’s prog- It is clear that advocacy services for people ramme of work to enhance the services available with disabilities are underdeveloped in Ireland. to people with disabilities. A lot of progress has The 2004 report, Developing an Advocacy been made since such a service was first mooted Service for People with Disabilities, stated that in 2001. The views and the experience of people service providers, the community and voluntary with disabilities and of those who work with them sectors are increasingly aware of the need for have made a significant contribution to the these services. An independent advocacy service development of the advocacy programme already is essential if people with disabilities are to be underway and the proposals in this legislation. fully included in the process of service provision. Officials of my Department will continue to con- This will give many people with disabilities, who sult with disability interests groups in the may be unable to seek services for themselves, development of the services proposed and the the opportunity to put forward their requests and implementation of my Department’s disability views on the range of services they receive. sectoral plan. The issue of resources is central to Perhaps the Minister will address the following the successful implementation of any new service questions in his response. What will be the geo- being introduced by the Government. I assure the graphic remit of the personal advocacy service? House that the resources necessary to introduce Where will the personal advocates be based and the new personal advocacy service are being pro- will they be in Dublin only or around the coun- vided to the citizens information board. In 2006, try? Has the citizens information board deter- Comhairle was allocated a total of \24.362 mil- mined the number of advocates to be employed, lion, of which \2.012 million was provided for the the office supports to be provided and where they development of advocacy services by the volun- will be located? tary and community services, as well as \250,000 The Disability Federation of Ireland pointed for preparatory work on the personal advocacy out that advocacy services can be often passive in service. For 2007, my Department has allocated that a person must make an application to them. \28.422 million to Comhairle, with a total of However, individuals may not know where or to \4.312 million allocated specifically for advocacy whom they must apply, whether they are entitled services. to the service or even of its existence. How can People with disabilities face many barriers to the most marginalised and vulnerable in society full participation in society. The personal advo- be assisted in taking advantage of this service? cacy service provided for in the Citizens Infor- My colleague, Deputy Stanton, has noted that mation Bill 2006 has a significant contribution to section 5 states that a person must be at “risk of make to ensure every person with a disability has harm to his or her health, welfare or safety if he access to appropriate assistance and support in or she is not provided with the social service or securing their entitlements to social services. It services that he or she is seeking to obtain”. represents an important step forward in These seem very negative grounds for availing of delivering the Government’s commitments in the a service. An indication should be given that a disability strategy to the full integration of people person could avail of the service if he or she with disabilities in all aspects of society. would benefit from it because, as it stands, indi- I commend this Bill to the House. viduals will qualify only if harm would come to them should they not receive the service. We Mr. J. Phelan: I welcome to the House the should turn that around by stating that a person Minister for Social and Family Affairs and his qualifies if he or she would derive benefit from officials. I concur with the Minister’s remarks on the service. How does a person prove he or she the obstacles faced by people with disabilities. I will come to harm by not receiving a service? The broadly welcome the Bill as a step in the right Minister should re-examine this aspect of the Bill. direction, although I wish to raise a number of The issue of prioritising also arises. Subsection questions on its provisions. I also intend to raise (5) of the proposed section 7A, to be inserted by issues on behalf of my colleague, Fine Gael’s section 5, states: “The board shall have regard to Seanad spokesperson on social and family affairs the following to determine the order and equality, Senator Terry, who is unavoidably 12 o’clock of priority to be accorded to different absent. qualifying persons in the assignment The Citizens Information Bill 2006 is one of the of personal advocates to such persons:”. It goes major strands of the national disability strategy. on to list five different grounds for qualifying. It It will establish a personal advocacy service to be does not make clear how this will work. It operated by the citizens information board. The appears that only the most complex services will establishment of a personal advocacy service to be dealt with by the personal advocacy service. assist people with disabilities in accessing health This matter needs to be teased out further. and personal social services and supports has Otherwise, the service may not be practicable. been urgently sought by numerous disability Many people with disabilities are found not groups, including in particular the National Dis- only in day and residential care and training 1841 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1842 places, but also in hospitals and places of deten- performance of his or her function shall be guilty tion. Under the proposed section 7C, to be of an offence and will be liable on summary con- inserted by section 5, the personal advocate can viction to punishment. Can a statutory or volun- enter premises to attend and represent the person tary body be guilty of an offence? While other at any meeting, consultation or discussion. sections of the Bill state that statutory bodies However, would he or she be able to enter a shall co-operate, this section mentions a “person” hospital or place of detention? The Disability who obstructs or hinders an advocate. Who lays Federation of Ireland maintains that the powers that charge? In similar legislation, an advocate or of the personal advocate must extend to any place inspector who enters premises needs identifi- where people with disabilities reside. cation and is required by law to produce it. Many of those who will qualify for the personal Otherwise, anyone could claim to be acting as a advocacy service will not have the capacity to personal advocate for someone. It is important apply or have someone to apply on their behalf. that it is a requirement that a person demanding The Bill appears to provide that a person with an entry to premises must have such means of identi- intellectual disability may apply in writing under fication. That provision should be added to the the proposed section 7B, to be inserted by section Bill. Proceedings for an offence under this section 5, or such other forms as specified by the Mini- may be brought and prosecuted by the Minister. ster, to the director for the assignment of a per- What is the process for bringing the information sonal advocate to him or her, and he or she shall to the Minister? specify in the application the social service or The sign language interpretation service for services he or she is seeking to obtain. It is deaf people was covered by the original legis- important that the application process is made as lation, the Comhairle Act 2000. However, it is not simple as possible with the service being pro- included in the Bill and the Minister did not refer active instead or reactive. As the Bill stands, it to it in his remarks. What are his intentions will not reach out to the marginalised people who regarding this service? If it is not intended to need this help. establish it on a statutory basis, will it operate as What happens if a personal advocate giving another of the Department’s administrative advice and information, and acting for a person schemes? The sign language interpretation with a disability makes a mistake? Is there a service is essential for deaf people, many of review process? The advocates appear to work on whom cannot lip-read and suffer high levels of their own; in other cases, it would be a team social exclusion that are intensified by poor liter- effort. Will the advocate work as part of a team? acy levels caused by a lack of communication with If the advocate gives incorrect advice, what education providers and teachers. We have a recourse does the person have? major shortage of sign language interpreters for It is important that the service is independent, deaf people. I understand only 50 freelance particularly of service providers. We must also interpreters serve approximately 5,000 deaf sign avoid the establishment of a cartel between advo- language users and many of these are based in cates and service providers; there should always the greater Dublin area. How many additional be a distance between the two. An advocate interpreters will be provided? Where will they be should be fighting on behalf of a person with a trained and how will they be distributed? disability. Advocates must also avoid downplay- The Bill does not include a facility for the ing the expectations of the person with the dis- director of the personal advocacy service to ability. While the advocate can attend and rep- appear before an Oireachtas committee, except resent the person at any meeting, consultation or in the case of accounting for funds. While an discussion, who decides when the meetings take Oireachtas committee may be able to call the place? If the person is not qualified, the meeting director before it, similar legislation on other may not take place at all. Who notifies them of bodies makes explicit provision for directors to the meetings? Are they entitled to such noti- appear before committees of the Houses at reg- fication? ular intervals to explain the operation of his or The advocate can enter at any reasonable time her service. any place where day care or residential care and I welcome the Bill, which represents a step n training are provided for the person. That avoids the right direction. However, a number of issues mention of places of detention and hospitals. have been brought to our attention and I ask the Who defines reasonable time? Is it the service Minister to respond to them. provider? Must an appointment be made and notice given, and when the advocate attends, Ms Cox: I join Senator John Paul Phelan in what can he or she do? These questions were put welcoming the Bill. I welcome the concept of Senator Terry by an advocate. I would like the making life easier for people with disabilities. The Minister to respond to this point. Bill is intended to provide an enhancement of life A statutory body or voluntary body that pro- for people with disabilities. In considering where vides social services shall co-operate with the per- we are in providing services for people with dis- sonal advocate in the performance of his or her abilities, we should take a step back and consider duties. A person who, by act or omission, some philosophical questions. I have the follow- obstructs or hinders a personal advocate in the ing problem with the Bill. Why do we need advo- 1843 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1844

[Ms Cox.] mainstreaming. The general population does not cates to give people the rights to which they are accept what people with disabilities can give. entitled? What is wrong with the system that it I attended a meeting recently to review some- requires the establishment of an independent one who had entered a new service. This took advocate-type body with appeals mechanisms, place five months after the person joined the directors, staff, a budget of \2 million, etc.? service. The incredible feature of that meeting Should our efforts not be directed towards cor- was that throughout the meeting the service pro- recting the system rather than finding mechan- viders discussed what the person was able to isms to make it better for the people who need achieve. It is to their credit that they did not talk to use it? about disability but ability. At the end of the The key question is what we need to do with meeting it was clear to all involved that while this the system. While in the short term it might be 20 year old was able and achieving within the appropriate to introduce a mechanism of advo- training setting provided, that did not extend to cacy and assistance, our real goal should be to the wider setting of the community and the per- devise a system that is sustainable into the future. son could not go to the pubs or cinemas on Friday We must ensure that the people who have rights nights. The person did not have a social circle or in any system, including the health system, the supports to live in our society. services for those with disabilities and education, I appeal to the Minister to create a review which are guaranteed by the Constitution, should mechanism to see if we can eliminate the require- not need special steps or measures to give them ment for this advocacy service in five or ten years. that to which they are entitled. The money provided to health services has The Minister spoke about spending on services increased significantly over the past ten years, yet for those with disabilities. It must be recognised despite that and the establishment of the Health that we have come a long way in working with Service Executive, the service is not as good as it people with disabilities to look after them, edu- used to be. People are waiting on trolleys in acci- cate them, and provide them with facilities and dent and emergency units and hospitals must carers. When we ask people with disabilities and close because of MRSA. Why are there so many their service providers whether things are sub- problems in the health service. Where is all this money going? Why do we not get the type of stantially better now than they were ten years ago improvements that we should get for the money we are told that while they are better, there is a spent on the service? Maybe this is because we long way to go. I will give an example of a service have created levels of administration, advocacy, provider in Galway city. A training centre was directors, appeals and people doing paper push- established to help people with disability who ing jobs. have completed second level education and provide life skills, etc. Fifteen people travel from Mr. J. Phelan: Hear, hear. Portumna to Galway city, spending six hours a day on a bus to access training and development Ms Cox: An example is the Minister’s reference services. That does not make sense and it is not in an earlier version of his speech to the terms acceptable. Will an advocacy service improve that and conditions of funding and the new provisions situation or do we need to improve the system for in the Comhairle Act to enable the citizens infor- those people? There is a group of parents called mation board to set terms and conditions for vol- Voices for Galway which provides additional untary bodies in seeking funding and to promote speech therapy for children with Down’s syn- the development of high quality standards in the drome. We sang carols before Christmas to raise provision of information to the public. The effect \ money and collected approximately 4,000. What of the provisions is that voluntary bodies seeking \ of the 2 million being put into this advocacy funding may be asked to demonstrate how they service to help us win rights that we already will pursue quality service objectives, and funding have? Why are we fund-raising to provide basic may be refused. Show me a service provider in human rights, in this case the right to be able to this country for people with disabilities who is not speak properly for people who have that ability working his or her backside off trying to provide but need assistance? frontline services while being hindered time and This is not a personal attack on the Minister again with the need for plans, strategies, quality because it is not his problem but it is time we statements and whatever. This pulls frontline staff took stock and asked what we are doing about away for planning days and service days while at disability. The Minister referred to main- the coalface, the people who need the service, streaming. That is a joke. We are creating segre- such as social workers in their homes, visiting psy- gated groups of people within a mainstream chologists and speech therapists are losing this environment. Anyone involved in education and service. We are all too busy writing plans and training at any level would say this mainstreamed strategic documents and putting them in language integration of people with disabilities is not hap- that ensures we do not lose funding or that we pening. There are special teachers and assistants, get the funding to which we are entitled. and children who are made to feel different That is the problem. We spend too much time because they are in a classroom. That is not real writing bloody books to try to get funding instead 1845 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1846 of saying: “This is what we want to do, this is how cern, the needs of those of our fellow citizens who we will deliver and if we do not deliver, you can have disabilities of one kind or another. I have take the money from us next year and we must got out of the habit of using the word “disability” find a different way to do it.” We need to start and I almost swore that I would not use it any- proofing legislation. We are creating more and more. I was very impressed by the efforts of those more layers of bureaucracy through which people involved in the ability awards scheme, which cannot wade, which is very worrying. highlights that people with disabilities are also The Minister spoke about reducing the size of people with abilities. I accept it is not possible to the boards. I agree in principle that we may not use the word “ability” in place of that of “dis- need 20 people on a board to run a service. I have ability” in every instance but trying to use it as serious difficulty, however, with his saying that much as possible sends a welcome message. The we are to reduce the number of people rep- work done by organisations such as the Aisling resenting those with disabilities from five to at Foundation to inform employers about the abili- least three. We should ensure a space is kept on ties of people who they might have otherwise the board for those who represent people with regarded as being somewhat lacking because they disabilities or for someone with a disability. If have disabilities is to be commended. The found- extra space is required to do that, it should be ation has done marvellous work and the Minister provided. Reducing the number on the board has supported it in many ways. from 20 to 15 and reducing representatives of What impresses me about those who are in those with disabilities from five to three when we need of help is that, whereas in the past those are trying to improve our services to people with experiencing difficulties formed groups and sent disabilities is neither fair nor right. The Minister emissaries to Dublin to seek assistance, they now may have some reason for this but I am con- form such groups and then decide to take action cerned about this suggestion. themselves. They still seek support from the The Minister defined advocacy as being the act Government in Dublin but they tend to help of supporting or speaking up for somebody or, themselves. The Minister has recognised such to put it more formally, as a dynamic process of self-help initiatives in the legislation because it is negotiation conducted by or on behalf of an indi- now the intention to provide support. vidual who is marginalised in some way. We do The Bill recognises the need of the State to not need somebody to engage in this process if reach out to people with disabilities and to meet the education, health and social welfare systems their needs more than halfway. Our history in have responsibility for delivering the services dealing with these people has not been partic- they should deliver without having somebody on ularly happy and has been characterised by the the other side fighting for that person. If the less than pretty sight of very human needs coming Minister worked in a factory where he was into full frontal collision with the inflexible face expected to deliver 100 units of a product, he of bureaucracy. Much of the heat that has been would find the manufacturing system simple generated by the issue of disability has been because it would tell him as the operator that he caused by the lack of humanity that has been is responsible for ensuring from start to finish the applied in approaching the question. product would do what it was intended to do. A key aspect of the Bill before us is the pro- That is how the education, health and social posal to rename Comhairle as the citizens infor- services should work. It should be the responsi- mation board. This may appear to be a matter of bility of those providing the service to ensure cosmetics — the Minister outlined the facts very there is no need for advocates, appeal systems or well in this regard — but it is not; it goes to the reviews because people will receive their very heart of the need to reach out to the people entitlements. on this matter and to speak to them in a language The real challenge and responsibility the they understand. I share with many people an Government and Secretaries General of Depart- affection for having the names of State bodies in ments face is to create a system that does not con- Irish but not when this gets in the way of com- tain barriers. Such a system would remove the municating clearly the function and purpose of a need for advocates. People would be then able body, as unfortunately happened in this case. to access their entitlements and rights in the way There were many people who came within the originally intended and would not be obliged to remit of Comhairle who had no idea the organis- depend on somebody fighting on their behalf to ation was intended to meet their needs. This is a secure those entitlements and rights. valuable change. I thank the Minister for listening to my points. I was involved with An Bord Phoist approxi- I welcome the Bill and commend it to the House. mately 20 years ago. The first thing we decided I look forward to seeing if any changes regarding to do was change the name. We arrived at a name a review mechanism to consider the future oper- “An Post”, which does not need to be translated. ation of the legislation will be introduced. To a certain extent, I set a challenge to every Irish organisation establishing operations as to Mr. Quinn: I welcome the Minister. I also wel- whether it is possible for it to have a name that come the Bill, which I regard as a worthwhile step can be read in both languages and in respect of in the direction of treating, with the proper con- which an English translation is not required. 1847 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1848

[Mr. Quinn.] concentrate, strengthen and support these. The I am also delighted to note that even in today’s ability to allow them to do so is provided for in Stalinist-like atmosphere created by the Official the Bill. Languages Act, the Minister has found the cour- In contrast, however, those who have a more age to undo that mistake and make a fresh start. open approach and follow their instincts are How we name things is important and it is a invariably rewarded by an experience that matter about which we should always think care- enriches everyone affected by it. When an fully. Another problem regarding Comhairle is its employer takes on a person who perhaps would website, which brings together in one place all not have been his or her first choice because of citizen-related information. This is an excellent the existence of a disability, his or her initiative idea, which I totally support, but the website was garners support from other employees. People unduly hampered because it laboured under the feel good when working with those to whom I obscure name of Oasis. I have no idea as to what refer, particularly in terms of seeing them that name was intended to convey and I hope we improve, gain, grow in stature and blossom. It have seen the last of it. also has a positive effect on customers. Another pillar of the Bill is the concept of per- Customers, colleagues, other employees and sup- sonal advocacy. I congratulate the Minister on pliers often state that a company is worth sup- this development, which I welcome. It is an porting because it is doing good through attempt to redress the unfairness, which obtained employing those with disabilities. The really for too long and under which people who did not clever people in business are those who realise it have all their abilities were expected to jump makes very good business sense to develop through an impossible succession of hoops and employment opportunities for people with dis- obstacles in an attempt to have their needs prop- abilities. In the end, the person who benefits most erly met. The most unfair aspect was that, by is the employer. reason of their disabilities, many people were I wish the Bill every success and hope it will unable to negotiate those hoops and obstacles, pass into law speedily. If any amendments are while the bureaucracy was able to sniffily observe brought forward, I am sure the Minister will give its requirements had not been met. This led many them careful consideration because the objective people to press for a rights-based approach to dis- ability legislation because they saw it as the only behind them will be to improve what he is setting possible way to overcome the obstacles faced by out to achieve in this legislation. people with disabilities. They may well be right. However, I have always felt there was nothing the Mr. Brady: I, too, welcome the Minister and situation needed that could not be provided by a the introduction of the Bill. I have experience of modicum of reasonableness and a touch of what was then the Department of Social Welfare, humanity, helped along the way, of course, by a now the Department of Social and Family little more money. Now that we have the Affairs, and this legislation will enhance the vital resources to do what until recently was imposs- services that Department provides throughout ible, some of these apparently immovable obsta- the country. In the information society in which cles can be expected to disappear. Given that we we now live, the provision of accurate and concise have the money which we did not previously pos- information in a speedy manner is more or less sess and which delayed progress for so long, it expected, especially when it comes to people’s would be tragic if we could not also supply the rights and entitlements. People not being aware degree of reasonableness and humanity that are of their entitlements and rights has always been also required. an issue and for many years the Department of There is a world of difference between, on one Social and Family Affairs was accused of not giv- hand, putting obstacles in people’s way and, on ing enough information. My experience is that it the other, going out of one’s way to help and is a Department which embraced technology at make matters easy for them. I was recently hon- an early stage and attempted to provide as much oured to become patron of the Irish Association accurate information as possible in as speedy a of Supported Employment, IASE. I am conscious manner as possible. Employment exchanges, for of the difference of approach to which I refer, instance, were the first organisations to com- particularly when I discuss the question of sup- puterise their systems and the changes suggested ported employment with other employers. For in this Bill, particularly from an information pro- some individuals, the idea of employing people vision point of view, will enhance the existing with disabilities — which is the most pressing service. need for many people with such disabilities — is In a sense we have come full circle with the problematical and burdensome. It is a matter Department because this legislation is an attempt about which some people would rather not think. to make as much information as possible avail- However, I and many other employers have dis- able to as many people as necessary, especially covered that people with disabilities also possess those with disabilities or people in vulnerable abilities. For example, people with bad hearing sections of society who may not have access to often possess good eyesight and vice versa. information to determine their rights. This legis- Employers must seek out people’s abilities and lation is welcome in that regard. 1849 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1850

When we consider that more than 1.5 million the legislation will help deal with some of the people access welfare services every year and issues being experienced in certain areas. almost 1 million payments are made by the People with disabilities were mentioned. In my Department, in most cases to people in the most experience, many people with varying degrees of vulnerable sections of our society, the speedy disability are quite capable of being their own provision of accurate information is crucial advocate. The thrust of this Bill is to assist those because it not only benefits the person receiving who are not in a position to put their point of the information or a benefit but also the staff who view. We have all had experience of people with provide that service whose lives are made much disabilities who would have no contact with easier. I am aware from speaking to people work- services, established groups or organisations, or ing in the sector that they want to give as much any of the support groups and whose only support information as possible and this legislation is an came from their immediate family. Those people attempt to facilitate that. will be given the opportunity to support their The Bill does not just deal with welfare issues; family members in a particular way and be an it covers housing, employment, health and edu- advocate for them. That is to be welcomed. cation. Successive Governments have placed The provisions in the Bill will encourage full much emphasis on consumer rights and we now participation in society, which links in directly have a range of services dealing specifically with with the strategy on the provision of services for consumer rights. This Bill is another brick in that people with disabilities. I have had experience of wall and it will ensure that people get what they groups such as the centres for independent living are entitled to in a speedy manner and that as and Vantastic which provide services for people much information as possible is provided. with disabilities 24 hours a day, seven days a week The Bill will streamline the provision of infor- and ensure they can participate in life in general mation on a wide range of topics. Along with but especially in their own communities. Without most public representatives, I have had experi- that help, those people would be unable to do ence of the citizens information centres. The 235 that. I have known individuals who had particular centres throughout the country play a major role issues with which they could not get any help. and provide an excellent service in their com- When someone has a disability, it is much more difficult to get information or access a particular munities. As public representatives, we have all entitlement. This legislation will make life much had experience of people coming to our clinics easier for people at the centre of the services. seeking information, and in some cases we advise The personal advocacy service allows a family them to go to the citizens information centre, member, carer or helper from one of the groups which is probably the quickest way to get the or organisations assist a person in getting infor- information they require. We can follow up the mation or access to benefits. Not every disabled representation by writing a letter and so on but if person is linked in to an organisation and this they go to their local citizens information centre, legislation will strengthen their position in that they will get the information they need. regard. There is a very busy citizens information centre On section 4 and voluntary bodies that seek in the heart of the city which provides a wide funding, I have had much experience of the fund- range of services, including legal services, health ing administered by the Department. In some services and information on the various offices cases it might be a relatively small amount of where one can get relevant information. That money but it can make a significant difference to centre plays a major role in the community. This the group concerned. The more streamlined and Bill will streamline that service and pull together accessible that funding, the better because the the three strands that existed previously, includ- effects are immediately beneficial to the groups ing the Oasis service, the telephone line and the and organisations requiring it. citizens information service. The provision of independent, clear and access- An examination of the figures in that regard ible information has a central role in helping to reveal that in 2005, the Oasis website reached break down barriers and eases people’s anxieties. nearly 2.5 million people. The citizens infor- It can require great effort for an individual to go mation service dealt with almost 734,000 queries through his or her personal details with an and the citizens information telephone service adviser. It can be harder when the individual has dealt with almost 88,000 queries. The need for a disability or cannot convey what he or she this service has been proven and the changes sug- wants to express. The provision of information is gested in this legislation will make access to infor- crucial to allowing easier access to entitlements. mation much easier for people. Better still, it saves individuals from worry, heart- The new communities being set up by those ache and effort. The more that can be done to who come here from another country is an issue, streamline the service, the better. This legislation particularly in respect of their rights and entitle- will benefit people in this regard. ments. This service will provide information on A commitment has been made to increase asylum and immigration but also on the require- funding for the new citizens information board ments involved and what is expected of people and expand the services. Total funding of \55 mil- coming to this country. From that point of view, lion will be provided in 2006 and 2007, a sign of 1851 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1852

[Mr. Brady.] nicely? Public representatives do not just act as the Minister’s commitment to implementing an conveyors of information but as advocates with essential service. Citizens information centres the system. There is a further distinction which play a large role in local communities, not just in even the advocacy role will not cover. Problems, urban areas but rural areas where people can be not just individual ones, brought to the attention isolated. These centres allow people to walk in of legislators allow them to highlight some defect off the street, gain quick access to information or or gap in the system. Legislators also have more application forms. direct access than ordinary citizens to Ministers A significant number of people do not know and Departments in their decision-making what services are provided by citizen information capacities. services. I am glad a nationwide high profile I get very impatient with the conventional, information and awareness campaign will be metropolitan, editorial wisdom that legislators undertaken to ensure people are aware of the should just legislate and not make represen- services and information available. With a service tations on behalf of individuals. If one thinks such as this, people have to be actively encour- through the logic of this, under this notion public aged to take advantage of it. If not, then the accu- representatives would be cut off from their con- sation can be made that people are being stituents. It is healthy to listen to people’s prevented from applying for services. problems. I welcome the legislation as it will make I speak for myself as well as my colleagues in matters concerning entitlements easier for saying that many of the issues we raise on the people. The service will become user-friendly and Order of Business are problems that are brought enhance people’s opportunity to access their to our attention by constituents. It is rarely the entitlements. Over the years the functions of case that they are issues that affect only the indi- employment exchanges have changed viduals in question and nobody else. In many dramatically. I recall the time when the queues at cases, they are problems that affect a wide variety exchanges would be out the door but these days of people and which should be brought to our they are used for a myriad of different benefits attention. In terms of legislation and the way in and entitlements. While it is welcome that we no which any administrative system operates, there longer have an unemployment problem, we must are always questions of judgment and margins of acknowledge the service has changed. It is in discretion. In that capacity, a public representa- everyone’s interest if we can continue to provide tive acts as an advocate. a quality social welfare service with concise infor- It is easy for a correspondent to The Irish mation. The Bill goes a long way in improving the Times, living in the leafy suburb of Glenageary or excellent services provided by the Department of Foxrock, to deplore clientilism and constituency Social and Family Affairs. representations and to insist that legislators should be in the Chamber from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Dr. Mansergh: I welcome the Minister for Such persons live only six miles from the centre Social and Family Affairs to the House. The Bill of power and may have civil servants as neigh- is enlightened and progressive social legislation bours. Living in the capital, one has easier access which will be welcomed with those who deal with to many facilities. There are many others, people with disabilities. Comhairle and the citi- however, who live a long way from the capital zens information service are important public and do not regularly encounter senior civil ser- services. The thrust of the Bill is to ensure that vants let alone Ministers. Such people may want the service will be expanded and better help in communicating their needs and concerns resourced. Of course when informing people of to the places where decisions are made, which is their rights, nothing beats local radio discussions mainly, though not exclusively, Dublin. of points relating to particular categories of One of the positive aspects of our political entitlements. system is the accessibility of public representa- The concept of advocacy goes beyond the pro- tives, from the highest officeholder down, to the vision of information, which is necessary in cases public. In some more heavily populated countries of persons suffering a disability. The term “dis- and under different political systems, the people ability” covers a host of different circumstances who make decisions are impossibly remote. This and conditions. If this advocacy proves successful, is a positive feature rather than a deplorable one will there be a case for extending the concept to and something we should retain. A substantial other parts of the social welfare system? I can bulk of the representations we receive come already hear the objection from colleagues in under the departmental responsibilities of the both Houses that politicians would be doing Minister for Social and Family Affairs and themselves out of a job. I do not believe that any involve people who are in a relatively disadvan- more than the liberalisation of the taxi system in taged position. Dublin put existing licence holders out of a job. I draw Members’ attention to a fine statement As many and as varied a range of workers in part- by the former Taoiseach, Sea´n Lemass, in 1963. icular fields is required. It represents the very opposite of the philosophy Some ask what is constituency work when a often — wrongly, in my view — attributed to him citizens information centre would do the job in the context of his comments on a rising tide 1853 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1854 lifting all boats. The quotation is so eloquent that because there was the possibility of growth with- I have included it on the back of my visiting card: out conformity. However, there were also weak- nesses in the system. I say this without in any way All human experience bears out the lesson taking from the work done by the centres. They that social justice must be organised, that carried out several important functions, such as governments have the duty to intervene to pro- avoiding over-familiarity and endeavouring to tect the common good of all citizens without reduce offsetting bureaucracy. There was always preference for any individual or group, the perception that one could walk into one of although giving more attention to the less for- these centres and find someone with whom one tunate citizens who are less able to defend their could identify. I would not like to see that change. rights and assert their legitimate claims, and However, society has changed and people are that unless this is done, indefensible inequali- now presented with new opportunities. The econ- ties persist and tend to become more wide- omy, in particular, has changed for the better. We spread, including the too ready assumption that must ensure that people can avail of the new social benefits would follow automatically opportunities and resources. It is clear from this economic achievements and that they would be Bill that the Minister was not satisfied merely fairly shared amongst our community. with producing legislation; he also produced the Defending the rights and asserting the legitimate funding. There are issues other than funding, claims of the disadvantaged is what this legis- however. Our perception of people with disability lation is all about. Criticising the “too ready is a particularly important issue. I have had assumption that social benefits would follow experience in recent times of a FA´ S scheme in an automatically economic achievements” is the dia- area where some people with disabilities joined metric opposite of the notion that a rising tide the workforce. It was a wonderful experience. lifts all boats. When the people with disability came in, they did This Bill is fairly and squarely within the spirit not do so in some type of categorised fashion or of the enlightened social philosophy of Sea´n to create a balance between the able-bodied and Lemass. I congratulate the Minister on it. people with disability. There was a vacancy, they came in and they blended in in such a way that Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I join those who have wel- one could see development in their attitude and comed this Bill. I avail of this opportunity to pay in that of other people to them. This is what I a well deserved tribute to the Minister, who is would regard as mainstreaming. There was like a breath of fresh air in the area of rights and equality, which was vital. I am sure that occurs in opportunities for people with disability. The hall- many schemes. mark of his ministry to date is his focus on consul- I have often said the reason FA´ S has been so tation rather then controversy. This is exactly successful has been that the people who have run what is needed in this area. We have some well the schemes have been exceptionally pragmatic organised, well intentioned and professional practitioners. Whatever their back- lobby groups for people with disabilities. At times 1 o’clock ground, whether they are carpenters when such groups found it necessary to use the or otherwise, they have brought that media to make a point, that was done more out attitude to the job so bureaucracy has been very of frustration than anger. The feeling was that much diluted. They have been able to deal and there was no opportunity to present their cases. engage with people who have wanted to work I was taken by some of Senator Cox’s com- with FA´ S. They have always been ahead of the ments in the context of the difficulties that existed posse in deciding what is necessary and what in the past in regard to mainstreaming for those should be done. I recommend FA´ S as a model in with disabilities. One may theorise as much as terms of what it has achieved without, in some one wants about an issue such as this but the way, categorising and excessively highlighting people who know best what is required are those people with disability. Since these schemes have who themselves have disabilities. While one may provided training and those participating in them sympathise with somebody who suffers a have not been part of the general labour force or bereavement, one can never feel that person’s in pursuit of jobs because their needs have not grief. The same is true of the challenges that face allowed them to take up jobs, I guarantee that people with disabilities. Such challenges may con- virtually every FA´ S scheme will demonstrate the sist of something as simple as access to a building point I make. That is being done without any fan- or may relate to a wider issue, such as a general- fare. As a result, the situation is normalised and ised characterisation of people with disabilities or there is equality. a patronising attitude towards them. One cannot have 230 citizen information The growth in the network of citizen infor- centres without developing a cohesive policy for mation centres was to some extent organic. There them. This comes back to what I said about the was no major plan and many of the centres had availability of opportunities and resources. The their own particular style. Taking up Senator only way to do this is by a single branding, which Mansergh’s point about public representatives is what is intended here, as anything else will acting as advocates, many of these centres weaken the ability to avail of the opportunities enjoyed the involvement of political activists which exist. 1855 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1856

´ [Labhra´sOMurchu´ .] whatever results they deliver. If that element of There are other aspects to this as well. There democracy is taken away, it is a weakness. I now is a learning curve for each of the centres. If they understand why Senator Mansergh focused on always see themselves as isolated, stand-alone that so much. centres without having similar experiences to I very much welcome this Bill which is long other centres, although we know that is not the overdue and so practical. A contest should not case, they will miss out on those opportunities. created between the system and the information This legislation, however, will supply that learn- centres. It should be seen as a partnership trying ing curve. I cannot see how one can have a new to deliver cohesion which, in the long run, will engine without fuel, or a director. The suggestion give people the opportunity to get their rights. that there will be a director of staff makes so That is what it is about. It is not about charity or much common sense that one wonders why it was something to which people are not entitled. If it not done previously. That is why I paid tribute to does that, and it certainly can help towards doing the Minister and his officials in this regard. We so, this is among the best legislation I have seen have now identified an important element. in a long time. I wish the Minister and his Depart- I noticed Senator Cox sounded a few notes of ment well in pursuit of this. warning. She is exceptionally good at that and is generally very prophetic. She usually speaks from Minister for Social and Family Affairs (Mr. S. experience. I join her to this extent, namely, it is Brennan): I thank Senators on all sides for their very important that the new advocacy structure contributions on this proposed legislation. I list- does not, in some way, create a bureaucracy ened very carefully to the points made. As the which should not exist. It should only be seen as Bill goes through the different Stages in the complementary or supplementary to the new House, I will try to respond to the points made. system being put in place. I do not know how one Senator John Paul Phelan asked a number of could do that but one way is for primacy to questions. In the initial phase of the service, it is remain with the centres. The work of the centres planned that the director of the personal advo- should be acknowledged. They have often cacy service and four to six personal advocates worked without great resources and in buildings and support staff will be recruited. He also asked and centres which have not been especially suited about the location. The director of the personal for the work they had to do. Nevertheless, they advocacy service will be based in Dublin initially have given an important service so the primacy but on decentralisation of the citizens infor- should remain with them. However, the real pri- mation board headquarters, he or she will move macy must be the people with disability. That is to Drogheda. As the service develops throughout why we must avoid any type of bureaucracy the country, it is intended that trained advocates which prevents them from having a voice. From would be located in different parts of the country. reading the Bill, it is quite clear there is no inten- This all depends on the demand for the service as tion to create a structure which, in some way, it develops. Some advocates will be placed at becomes paramount. local level, again depending on the requirement. At one stage, I was surprised by Senator There is a certain degree of useful flexibility. Mansergh’s approach to the debate but he was On recruitment, the initial steps have been put 100% right. An issue arose recently, which I will in place without in any way pre-empting the legis- not mention, relating to representation by a lation. However, formal recruitment will begin Member of the Oireachtas. The debate became when the legislation goes through the House and very broad. I even heard a person for whom I is signed by the President. have the greatest respect, Fr. McVerry, make a Senator John Paul Phelan expressed concerns point about it on a political programme the other about the assignment of personal advocates and night. He was wrong to say there is a need to how people would know about the service. The remove public representatives from the area of board will continue to consult organisations representation. That is all very well for people throughout the country. who understand the system and for people who It is important to state this is a completely new know and have the confidence to look for their service as the provision of public services have rights. I have made representations for hundreds not been approached in this manner in Ireland of people who, despite the best will in the world, previously. To some extent we will be obliged to were not capable of doing so themselves. learn as the service is rolled out, to remain flex- I will give another example of this which might ible, to continue to consult and to make the requi- be slightly against Government policy but I will site changes as we proceed. We will do so while do so anyway. I always believed getting rid of the keeping our eye on the ball and on the main health boards was a retrograde step because objective, namely, as Senator O´ Murchu´ has just somebody who could not get attention, etc. could noted, to ensure that people receive the rights to knock on the door of an advocate, namely, a which they are entitled. public representative, seven days per week. In respect of how people will know about the Public representatives should not only feel they service, it will be highly proactive. The legislation have a mandate but that they have the confidence requires the citizen information board and the of the people. They are held accountable for advocates to seek out and offer support, as well 1857 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1858 as targeting those who may need the service to In respect of Senator Cox’s comments, as usual bring it to their attention. Rather than adopting Senator O´ Murchu´ has put his finger on it in the a reactive approach, I specifically included such a course of an excellent philosophical analysis of proactive approach in the legislation. The service the need for such a service. Senator Cox was cor- will undertake a programme to promote aware- rect to raise this question. One could as well ask ness. For example, it will contact GPs, public why a social welfare, health or any other service service nurses, social workers, hospital and resi- is required. The Senator is correct that in a per- dential services, as well as day centres. In fect, ideal world, one would not require such a addition, public representatives will be given full service and I would like to live in such a world. information as the service is rolled out. It will also Sometimes we all make the mistake of associat- undertake a number of training and developmen- ing disability with those who are confined to tal initiatives as it develops. wheelchairs. However, many people have other I have also asked the board to establish a com- disabilities, including sensory and intellectual dis- mittee of the board to include representatives of abilities, some of whom will need advocates more disability groups. Its purpose is to advise me on than others. While some are more than capable further measures I can put in place at an adminis- of fighting the system themselves, others need trative level as the service comes together. In someone to fight it for them. This resembles the response to Senator John Paul Phelan’s question need for the Combat Poverty Agency. Although as to how the public will know about the service, such an agency should not be necessary, for as this will be achieved through the aforementioned long as poverty exists, there should be an agency proactive high-powered awareness campaign and to attack it and sort it out, as well as campaigning programme, which will be undertaken as soon as for and championing those affected. the service gets moving. The citizens information agency is required As for the issue of sign language schemes for similarly for as long as people need support to deaf people, some time ago I launched a plan for fight the system. While they should not be a language service for deaf people who use sign obliged to fight the system, that is the reality of language in Ireland to ensure that members of life. The involvement of the European Union and the community have full access to public services. other authorities, such as State boards and com- It sets out a phased approach to the development panies, central Departments and so on has made of services in the next few years and involves the the system both vast and increasingly complex. establishment of a new entity, the Irish sign lang- The more complex it becomes, the greater the uage interpretative centre to develop and deliver need for the vulnerable to have someone on their services while maximising the benefits of new side. I was greatly taken by the comments made technology, in order that people throughout the by Senators Mansergh and O´ Murchu´ regarding country may have access to such services. I the role of public representatives who provide launched this service regarding sign language for such an advocacy service. deaf people recently. It is amazing how tech- Senators Cox and Brady also raised the ques- nology has changed everyone’s life. Members can tion of funding. I can confirm that the total grant imagine the benefits that have been offered sud- for 2007 is \28.4 million, of which \4.3 is ear- denly to those who face the difficulty of being marked for the advocacy service and I have deaf in modern society by the advent of text mes- already spoken in respect of the sign language saging. One can envisage the benefits of tech- centre. nology and how we need to support technological I hope my contribution did not give Senator developments in support of people with different Cox the wrong impression regarding the possible problems and issues. The Department will invest refusal of funding to groups that did not measure almost \3 million in this service during the next up to some requirements. One reason for the few years. name change is because the citizens information Senator John Paul Phelan also asked about board will fund citizens information centres mistakes made or wrong advice given by personal throughout the State. I wanted to ensure that advocates. The citizens information board will both the public and, increasingly, immigrants have in place a fairly robust, highly transparent would see a brand they could recognise and that and public system of complaints. A customer who this would be an organisation that does what it is dissatisfied with the services of a personal advo- says on the tin. It is a brand that people can cate will be able to complain in the first instance recognise and support. to the director mentioned in the legislation. The citizen information centres throughout the Thereafter, complaints may be made to the board State perform excellent work, involving substan- itself and there will be full access to an appeal tial number of volunteers, whom I salute in part- system. Consequently, I am satisfied that any icular. However, I wished to ensure that such incorrect advice will be flushed out fairly rapidly centres will continue to strive to reach a high by the system. The Senator also raised some standard that can be verified nationally and inde- other queries that I can deal with on a one to one pendently. I do not envisage many refusals. basis, if necessary. Alternatively, I can revert to Instead I envisage that the central board will sup- them at another time such as on Committee port all the centres nationwide in their continued Stage. efforts to maintain standards. Many fine organis- 1859 Citizens Information Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1860

[Mr. S. Brennan.] needs another organisation to figure how they all ations are involved in such work and I wish to provide information. join with Members in paying tribute to them. My I opted to change everything. The national words in no way reflected on them because I have organisation will be the citizens information nothing but the highest admiration for them. board, the local organisations will be citizens information centres and the website will be Ms Cox: I interpreted this incorrectly. On re- www.citizensinformation.ie. If an organisation reading it, the Minister is correct. charged with providing information cannot provide information about itself we are off to a Mr. S. Brennan: The Senator should not worry bad start. It needed to be streamlined and is no as this provides me with an opportunity to state reflection on our use of the language. clearly the admiration felt by all in these Houses Senator Mansergh quoted Sea´n Lemass. It is and in Ireland for such marvellous organisations, not the first time he has done so when I visited including Inclusion Ireland, the Brothers of Char- the House. He has done so on a number of ity in Limerick, the Bray Partnership, the County occasions. It must be something I said. He is right Monaghan Partnership, the Galway advocacy that a rising tide does not lift all boats. A model service, the Longford advocacy forum, the Mayo civilised society must reach down and back and partnerships, the centres in Cork city, as well as help certain boats and those who do not have those located in counties Clare, Donegal and boats. Helping the individuals and groups who Westmeath. I could go on as all counties contain get left behind is the mark of a modern civilised an advocacy group or service, or a citizens infor- society. mation board, all of which perform excellent I thank my officials who did an enormous work. I am trying to ensure that together, we will amount of work on this Bill over a long number pull together a national movement with plenty of of years. This began with a Comhairle Bill in local volunteers that provides a first class service 2000. It is now 2006. with certain standards of quality and uniformity to deliver a quality service across the board. I join Ms Cox: It is 2007. with Senator Cox and other Members in paying tribute to all those excellent groups. Mr. S. Brennan: We are not exactly rushing it. I should explain a point raised by Senator Cox. We are in 2007. The Bill is the Citizens Infor- The outgoing board of Comhairle had 20 mation Bill 2006. members. I believe Members will concur with the Senator Mansergh spoke about the role of advice I received, which was to reduce this public representatives. As a Member of the Cabinet, I have regular opportunities to visit number to 15. In so doing, the number of people other countries and speak to my opposite to be appointed specifically to represent the dis- numbers. Increasingly, I find they are not elected. ability sector will be reduced from 25% to 20%. In Belgium, France, Italy, the United States and However, if one reduces the numbers on a board sometimes in Spain, Cabinet Members are from 20 to 15, all groups involved get squeezed appointed. When I sit down for a cup of tea, or and this is not the only group to be allocated a something heavier from time to time, we discuss lower representation. Nevertheless, there is these matters and I come away thinking how for- nothing to prevent me or future Ministers from tunate we are that we stay closer to the public. appointing other members of the board to seek Members of Government must be elected by to ensure that the disability sector is fully rep- the people. Public representatives meet the public resented. I gave a commitment to this effect in week in week out. If we ever reach a stage where the Da´il. The only agenda arises from numerical people who walk these corridors see themselves necessity because of a reduction in numbers. as only legislators and not representatives of the Apart from its disability role, the citizens infor- real people our democracy will be greatly deme- mation board also plays a major role in providing aned. I support a great deal of what Senator information through the citizens information Mansergh stated. We would lose something centres to old and young people, teenagers and special if we suddenly found a Da´il and a Seanad families, including those in crisis. It has a range remote and away from the problems of everyday of responsibilities. I appreciate the opportunity to life. It would be a sad day for the country. explain this is purely a numbers situation. I am I thank the Acting Chairman for considering sure it can be dealt with. the Bill. I have taken on board the comments I thank Senator Quinn who greatly supported made and we will deal with them further on Com- the name change. I grew up as a supporter of mittee Stage. doing as much as possible through Irish. It is with great reluctance I move away from the present Question put and agreed to. title. As Senator Quinn put it, in a changing Ireland, having a website called oasis, an organis- Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Walsh): When is it ation called Comhairle and an organisation called proposed to take Committee Stage? the citizens information board in every town is too confusing, particularly for immigrants. One Ms Cox: Next Tuesday. 1861 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1862

Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 13 viders and yesterday attended a presentation in February 2007. Buswells Hotel. It was very impressive in terms of improving signals and extending their range Sitting suspended at 1.25 p.m. and resumed at across Europe. Data I have received from RTE 2.30 p.m. suggest it will not, however, represent an ideal alternative. Does the Minister have a view on Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: what will be the more effective system? Will Committee Stage. DRM be considered? From what I have seen it seems very effective. Section 1 agreed to. Mr. N. Dempsey: To answer Senator Henry’s SECTION 2. query on the danger of overload, such matters Acting Chairman (Mr. Moylan): Amendments will be controlled by the BCI. Obviously there Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, 15, 47 and 49 are related are limits to the amount of spectrum that can be and will be discussed together. used. The technology allows four channels but it could be eight or 12 in the future, depending on developments in digitisation. We operate on the Government amendment No. 1: basis of four channels at the moment to ensure In page 4, lines 17 and 18, to delete all there is not the overspill about which the words from and including “, where” in line Senator spoke. 17 down to and including “service,” in line Senator Kenneally asked for clarification on 18. the use of multiplexes for radio signals. The Bill is designed to allow radio or television but we Minister for Communications, Marine and were advised there could be some doubt over the Natural Resources (Mr. N. Dempsey): Amend- wording so we have clarified the point that mul- ments Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, to section 2 are tech- tiplex channels can be used for either. nical amendments that will ensure clarity as to We are learning about digital radio mondiale, what material can be carried on multiplexes. digital audio broadcasting and so on. The specifi- These amendments will ensure that some radio cations for DRM are technical. RTE is piloting a services will be carried on television multiplexes, DAB scheme. It is believed that DAB would although television multiplexes will be primarily have greater quality and could provide more for television. Similarly, some television or audio- domestic services. DRM would deal mainly with visual services can be carried on radio mul- lower quality stations from further afield. tiplexes, allowing a degree of overall flexibility to Nothing has been finalised, but the systems the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland and the cannot be compared in terms of their relative multiplex contractor applicants. While this flexi- spectral efficiencies because they have been bility could be construed from the Bill in its pub- designed for different parts of the radio spectrum. lished form, the amendments will further define The spectrum allocation has been agreed inter- the intended use of each multiplex. Amendment nationally. No. 15 to section 3, amendment No. 47 to section There will probably be more experimentation, 11 and amendment No. 49 to section 13 are fol- pilot schemes and so on, but I am unsure as to low-on amendments clarifying the fact that cer- the Senator’s point on the effectiveness or tain provisions in those sections relate only to efficiency of DRM as opposed to DAB. For television multiplexes. These amendments need domestic purposes, DAB is viewed as the appro- to be introduced because of the amendments to priate system. I do not doubt that we will try to section 2. standardise specifications across Europe and that DRM will be considered in that context. Dr. Henry: Is there any control over the number of stations broadcasting on multiplex? I Mr. Finucane: Yesterday, I attended a presen- am not a technical person but believe that, if tation on DRM. It appeared to be an effective there are much more than five, there is consider- signal as it was shown projecting clearly from Por- able interference. While the amendments are tugal to Cyprus. With DAB, a signal can fail if reasonable, will multiplex channels become one passes underneath a bridge. I am not an overloaded? expert and this is new technology to me, but I would not like RTE to have an initial bias in fav- Mr. Kenneally: Will the Minister clarify our of DAB without having considered the other whether there will continue to be six multiplexes, option if it is more effective. Ex-RTE employees some of which will be used for radio signals, are promoting DRM and have tried explaining it instead of there being additional channels for to RTE. radio? Dr. Henry: Will small stations be able to trans- Mr. Finucane: Since the Minister’s presentation mit from the multiplexes or will they need to send and speech on Second Stage, many of us were their signals to hubs from which they will be approached by digital radio mondiale, DRM, pro- selected? What will be the quality? 1863 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1864

Mr. Mooney: I am seeking guidance. While this Amendment agreed to. is a technical matter and, like the Minister and others, I am not a technology expert, I have a Government amendment No. 3: considerable interest in this area. Will we address In page 4, between lines 23 and 24, to insert the technology issue on this grouping of amend- the following: ments? Other amendments deal with technology specifically. I do not want to stifle debate. “ ‘television multiplex’ means a multiplex Am I to understand the Minister that these in which the programme material is predomi- amendments will include sound broadcasting at nantly television;”. multiplexes, which everyone would welcome? I welcome that the Minister responded rapidly to Amendment agreed to. the concerns expressed on all sides of the House on Second Stage about sound broadcasting being Section 2, as amended, agreed to. the poor relation, whether the legislation would give it equality and whether the multiplexes SECTION 3. would allow for it. Subscribers to cable companies can get visual and audio channels and I assume Acting Chairman (Mr. J. Walsh): Amendments that the amendments relate to that matter. Nos. 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 14, 16, 19 to 25, inclusive, 28 to 31, inclusive, 38, 39, 42 to 45, inclusive, 48, 51, Mr. N. Dempsey: The amendments relate to a 52 and 53 are cognate. Amendments Nos. 6, 8, mixture of radio and television. The Bill is techni- 9, 11, 13, 17, 18, 40, 41, 50 and 54 are related. cal, but we should not be too afraid of tech- Amendment No. 51 is an alternative to No. 50. nology. It is not the case that there is a great deal Therefore, amendments Nos. 4 to 14, inclusive, 16 of physical hardware, which we imagine when we to 25, inclusive, 28 to 31, inclusive, 38 to 45, discuss muxes. A multiplex is part of a spectrum, inclusive, 48 and 50 to 54, inclusive, will be taken which is available to everyone. It is not physical. together by agreement. Often, people who listen to us get the impression that they would be able to see or buy these Dr. Henry: I move amendment No. 4: objects. Senator Mooney is correct in that we will In page 4, line 30, after “television” to insert discuss technical aspects later, as these amend- “and digital radio mondiale”. ments relate to the inclusion of broadcasting. Regarding DAB and DRM, both have pluses The Government amendments are welcome but I and minuses, but DAB is the preferred option. would prefer if the Minister accepted our amend- ments because they are more specific. It is not RTE is experimenting in that regard because enough to insert “a sound broadcasting service”, DAB is more suited to the sending signals to the we must specify what we want. domestic market. I am unsure concerning the This service will not just be for people in question of difficulties, but problems with bridges Britain, where there are many Irish people and or tunnels may prompt RTE to look elsewhere. people interested in Ireland and the programmes From our perspective, it is important that the broadcast on RTE. I may have criticised RTE legislation should not prescribe one way or radio on Second Stage but it is obvious that I another. RTE should be free to get the best avail- listen to it. Its programmes are of value, my criti- able system. cisms are to get back programmes I wanted but DAB makes better allowances for small and that have been taken away from me or to suggest regional stations than DRM. As to whether they should be broadcast at more suitable times. smaller stations will be able to transmit from mul- There are plenty of people on mainland Europe, tiplexes, the muxes will be open for people to bid such as my son who lives in France, who would onto multiplexes. I imagine that different radio listen. If we included “digital radio mondiale”, and television groups will put packages together, they would be in a position to receive sound seek spectrum space from the BCI and be radio. The programmes are worth listening to and adjudged. It is good to involve the BCI because many English speakers in continental Europe, it will have an overall view of gaps in what is such as those who have retired to Spain, or others available and will be able to make judgments on who may have sight problems and rely on radio the types of programmes on the system. for information, enjoy RTE radio as a good source of information. Amendment agreed to. I complain sometimes about the music prog- rammes or the lateness of the arts programmes Government amendment No. 2: but we should spread our wings further and con- In page 4, between lines 21 and 22, to insert sider this amendment, which is more specific than the following: “a sound broadcasting service”, which would leave a great deal to the broadcaster to decide. “ ‘sound broadcasting multiplex’ means a multiplex in which the programme material Mr. Mooney: Taking up the Minister’s theme is predominantly sound;”. as outlined in the debate on the previous amend- 1865 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1866 ments, I would not support specifics when it in having a dual capacity transmitter. DRM also comes to technology. In general, Bills of a techni- contains a modest data capacity for additional cal nature tend to deal with generalities rather text services. Broadcasters such as the BBC and than specifics because technology changes so Deutsche Welle in Germany are using or testing quickly — only 25 years ago it was not possible DRM for overseas broadcasting. RTL in to record a programme for future viewing. Digital Germany has begun broadcasting on DRM for its broadcasting is a new phenomenon. Customers European market. are now urged to ensure they have high definition An additional system, DRM 120, is planned for as an option when buying a television even the VHF bands as a digital replacement for FM though high definition programmes are yet to be radio channels, which addresses Senator Henry’s broadcast on a regular basis. The Minister was comments about over the bridge and under the right earlier that we should tread cautiously in fix- bridge. It will deal with the bit level available on ing a particular type of technology in this area. the spectrum that can affect the quality of the FM I am not a technical expert but to grapple with signal. This system may be valuable in parts of the debate that has arisen as a result of this Bill, the world where there is still space on the I tried to find out as much as possible. I come VHF/FM bands, although there is not much sur- from a broadcasting background so I have an plus space available in Ireland and we have ongoing interest in this. Digital audio broadcast- agreed internationally to go on to an VHF3 band, ing and digital radio mondiale are not rival which is part of the new technology. The Minister technologies. DAB is primarily used on a and his officials are the experts in terms of draft- national basis while DRM is used for inter- ing and executing the Bill. I am merely national purposes. RTE has a long-wave trans- attempting to outline the reasons I would not mitter on Summerhill, in the Minister’s constitu- necessarily support the arguments made by those ency, which is approaching the end of its lifespan. who brought these amendments. It is in the process of upgrading the transmitter Predicting the future of technology is a hazard- so it will have a dual capacity whereby it will con- ous undertaking, so I agree with the Minister that tinue to provide a long-wave service which Irish legislation should not be prescriptive with regard people abroad can pick up, although on the to the technical ways and means of Atlantic coast in Portugal and such areas 3 o’clock achieving the objective of a superb medium-wave is available. More than two thirds radio service with state-of-the-art of Britain can receive the long-wave signal. The technology for domestic audiences and the Irish dual capacity element of the new transmitter is abroad. Projecting the image of Ireland to an DRM, not DAB, primarily because it is best international radio audience is a separate issue. suited for long-range transmission. The current dual approach of testing DRM while The European Broadcasting Union’s digital continuing to support DAB is the best way for- strategy group published a report entitled “Public ward, although the Minister is right to avoid set- Service Media for the Digital Age” on 26 June ting out a specific technological direction in this 2006. It stated that by the end of 2006, more than Bill. 50 countries would launch DAB broadcasts on a permanent or test basis. There are now more than Mr. Kenneally: I thank the Minister for 475 million people who are potentially covered responding to Senators who pointed out during by DAB signals and more than 800 radio stations, the Second Stage debate that while the Bill gives most of them European, are broadcasting on RTE a remit to provide television services to the DAB. In the receiver market, the report notes, Irish abroad, it does not make specific provision there are more than 200 receivers available as for radio broadcasts. Is such a provision is neces- prices decline and sales grow. Digital radio mond- sary, however, given that RTE already broadcasts iale, DRM, is intended as a digital alternative to on long wave? I recall listening to Gaelic games replace AM analogue radio channels in the short, while on holiday in France. medium or long wave bands. That is why RTE purchased a dual capacity transmitter for Sum- Mr. Mooney: Waterford beating Wexford, for merhill, it will eventually replace the long-wave example. signal. The report goes on to state that it may also Mr. Kenneally: Does the Senator also mean to be a viable alternative to DAB for radio stations refer to football? It was marvellous to be able to covering large areas or complex topographies. receive a radio signal, although I accept that digi- This is significant for Ireland, which has moun- tal technology will allow for a much improved sig- tainous regions. There are still parts of the coun- nal. I hope the Minister will clarify whether the try, such as south-west Cork and Donegal, where need exists for provisions on radio broadcasting. it was sometimes difficult to pick up the RTE FM When referring to overseas services from RTE, signal until repeater stations were established. we probably think of emigrants in the UK, to The report continues that the first multi-stan- which a signal can be easily broadcast. How far dard receivers have entered the market in the last will modern technology allow RTE to broadcast 12 months, combining DRM with AM, FM and a signal? I presume it will not travel to far flung DAB, which is in keeping with RTE’s initiative places such as the United States or Australia. I 1867 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1868

[Mr. Kenneally.] 3(1) of the principal Bill. That is the generally think, however, everybody will welcome the pro- used term to describe a radio service in broad- gress we are making in terms of this Bill. casting legislation. The amendments are designed to amend the core remit of the RTE authority, Ms O’Meara: I support the spirit of the amend- which was set out in the Broadcasting Authority ments proposed by Senator Henry. I listened Act 1960, to ensure sound broadcasting services carefully to the arguments made by Senator are provided to the Irish abroad. Amendment Mooney and, while I am not as familiar with the No. 50 replaces the old section 14 of the principal technology as I would wish, I hope the Minister’s Bill with a new section 14 and includes a response to the amendments will ensure the Bill restatement of section 8(8)(d) of the Broadcast- is flexible enough to manage future ing Act 2001 to correct a minor grammatical error developments. in sections 14(a) and (b). The amendment also inserts the term “sound broadcasting service” Mr. N. Dempsey: I thank Senators for the con- into section 14, which has the effect of amending tribution they made in terms of bringing these section 28(10) of the Broadcasting Act 2001 to amendments. I am aware from the debate on require the RTE authority to report to the Mini- Second Stage that we are all in agreement on the ster for Communications, Marine and Natural principle of what we are trying to achieve and Resources on the use it has made of television acknowledge that the amendments were pro- licence fee funding in the provision of the pro- posed in a good faith attempt to reach as many posed radio services to Irish communities abroad. of the Irish abroad as possible. We decided to be Amendment No. 54 inserts the term “sound explicit in including radio services in the Bill broadcasting service” into section 15 of the Bill, because, while we did not need to do so, several which has the effect of requiring the RTE auth- Senators cogently argued on Second Stage that it ority, where directed by the Minister, to maintain would be a good signal — pardon the pun — to special accounts on the use of the television send to Irish communities abroad. We concur licence fee funding. We are providing for it to with that principle and have therefore introduced broadcast to the Irish overseas and be account- a number of amendments to achieve our shared able for moneys so expended. goals. I realise that these amendments relate to many The amendments tabled by Senator Henry and different sections. Taking the proposed amend- Senator Norris, however, are unacceptable for a ments into account, section 3(1)(b) requires RTE number of reasons, primarily the issues to which to provide a broadcasting service to Irish com- Senator Mooney referred. I am not casting any munities outside the island of Ireland in so far as aspersions on the Senators for proposing their the RTE authority considers it reasonably practi- amendments because I acknowledge their interest cable. That flexible wording in section 3 accords lies in maximising RTE’s reach. However, their with the thinking and recommendations of the proposals would restrict the current and future report of the task force on policy regarding emi- technology options available to us. We made that grants that the development of a culturally sensi- mistake in 2001 when we tried to be specific in tive media service for the Irish abroad needed to primary legislation as to how we should develop be addressed. The Bill entrusts RTE with con- digital terrestrial television, with the result that sidering the most appropriate technological and we tied people’s hands and could not attract financial means of addressing the needs of such sufficient commercial interest to develop a Irish communities abroad. service. We were following a model which existed Senator Mooney made a number of accurate in Europe at the time but it did not work for us. points. The long wave 252 transmitter in Sum- The purpose of the primary legislation is address- merhill, County Meath, is being upgraded. The ing principles rather than technical details. It is DAB and DRM technologies should be seen increasingly difficult to achieve the correct more as being complementary rather than in balance with legislation in terms of leaving competition with each other. Last year’s world enough flexibility to Ministers or officials to radio conference agreed that there should be introduce change by means of regulations but we three to four DAB multiplexers on VHF, which need to allow for the maximum level of flexibility is the same as in every other country. We are now when we deal with technological matters. bound by an international spectrum agreement. The Government’s amendments clearly set out Transmitting radio signals to the US, Australia, the principle that the RTE authority must etc. cannot really be achieved terrestrially. It provide a radio service to Irish communities over- must by Internet or satellite, which is how RTE seas as well as account for the funds spent on pro- tries to do it. The changes in the Bill for the first viding such a service. These amendments will time will allow RTE to use public moneys to allow the authority the flexibility to use the best broadcast abroad by radio. It is being given this available technologies to achieve that mandate. power in line with what was requested by Obviously, price and other issues will have to be Senators on Second Stage. taken into account. Amendments Nos. 6, 7, 9, 11 and 13 insert the Mr. Mooney: I am grateful to the Minister for term “sound broadcasting service” into section his clarification. What would be the timeline for 1869 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1870 implementation now that he has outlined the Dr. Henry: The Minister has given a very clear interpretation of the sections relating to RTE’s explanation why his amendment is better than obligation to provide a radio and television that of Senator Norris and me. I am especially service abroad? As Senator Kenneally has indi- taken by what Senator Mooney has said because cated, this service would be mainly directed at the he has decades of experience in broadcasting and audience in Britain, our nearest neighbour. While was one of the presenters of “Both Sides Now”. we all welcome that this will be in legislation, there is a difference between what is in legislation Mr. Mooney: I thank the Senator. and what will happen on the ground. What role will the Minister have in the timeline for RTE to Mr. N. Dempsey: I thought the Senator was come back to the BCI to outline its proposals? going to say hundreds of years’ experience. Will it only be required to provide such account- Dr. Henry: I listened to his programme for ability annually? many years even though, thank goodness, I did not have much to do with emigration. We should Mr. N. Dempsey: I am not sure what the time- not be too modest or parochial about who will line will be. However, the obligation will arise listen to and look at these programmes. RTE from the enactment of the Bill. I have already should lift its sights rather than remembering the spoken to Cathal Goan in RTE. The station people in Dagenham, many of whom are dead. envisages some difficulties and has raised a RTE is now broadcasting to a totally different number of points. It is enthusiastic about trying generation of Irish people. When I was in the to achieve this outreach quickly. Having a specific south of Portugal recently, where my friends were legislative base in this regard is important for it. able to get RTE on the radio, I was informed that I would not be unfair in stating that he would most of the private jets at the local airport have accepted it as a strong signal of the wishes belonged to Irish people. of Government and the Houses of the Oireachtas. I do not anticipate any undue delay. The time- Mr. Kenneally: That is the Celtic tiger. scale we are considering would be in the region of 12 to 18 months to get everything right techni- Dr. Henry: RTE needs to look up. This radio cally and otherwise. RTE management views this station will broadcast not just to the Irish com- as a positive development and I am sure it will munities in the United Kingdom, or to elderly respond very quickly. people. It should be regarded as showing the Irish face. English is a second language for many Mr. Finucane: I wish to return to the issue of people. Why not aim at them? television. Many Irish people who emigrated to I accept the Minister’s arguments and will with- the UK in the 1950s and 1960s do not have access draw the amendment but I hope this station will to computer television programming or satellites not be regarded as addressing only a few Irish at present. In that context they could be regarded communities abroad, although they are as being media poor. How can we ensure they important. I hope that elderly people who do not have access to Irish television in the UK? have access to the Internet will get good enough equipment to receive the television or radio sig- Mr. N. Dempsey: I have quite a few relatives in nals by whatever modern method we send them. the UK, all of whom managed to get Tara when it Never let it be said I stood in the way of improved was on the go. They all still manage to get RTE technology but it is changing so much that the radio broadcasts. My aunt in Leamington Spa Government may have to consider installing new rang me just before Christmas to thank me for technology in community centres in England, the Bill, about which she had just heard. They are which it supports. It would be very disappointing not having too much difficulty at the moment. if a community with which we are particularly The Bill will give it a legislative basis and ensure concerned could not receive these signals. money can be legally spent on such items. Before Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. this we had no legislative basis for using licence fee money in this way. The Bill entrusts RTE with Amendment No. 5 not moved. considering the most appropriate technological and financial means to address the issue and I am Government amendment No. 6: sure it will be able to do so. Even as matters stand, RTE tries to reach out with its radio broad- In page 4, line 38, to delete “which” and sub- stitute “and a sound broadcasting service, casting through the use of long wave, Internet which services”. and satellite. It has been active in the area and now that it is entitled to spend licence fee money on it, it will consider the technological means and Amendment agreed to. begin as quickly as possible. I do not want to stipulate how as I would not know technically Government amendment No. 7: anyway. I would not want to restrict it in how it In page 4, line 42, to delete “that purpose” might do that. and substitute “those purposes”. 1871 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1872

Amendment agreed to. responded enthusiastically to this new mandate. I hope it will rise to the challenge as it has done in Amendment No. 8 not moved. the past, by presenting innovative and interesting programmes not just for the Irish abroad but for Government amendment No. 9: the international radio audience it will gain. In page 4, line 43, after “service” to insert “and the sound broadcasting service”. Dr. Henry: Will the Minister explain why it was not necessary to mention 2FM and Lyric FM in the Bill? Amendment agreed to. Mr. N. Dempsey: The point is well made and Amendment No. 10 not moved. RTE should bear it in mind not only because it is Government amendment No. 11: going to broadcast specifically to Irish or other communities abroad. While criticism is good, and In page 5, line 3, after “service” to insert it is important in a democracy that journalists are “and the sound broadcasting service”. vigilant, to constantly harp on the negative con- veys an unbalanced view of Ireland today. I take Amendment agreed to. the point that RTE should be conscious of the image it conveys. Amendment No. 12 not moved. It may not be popular to make comparisons with our friends across the water but the BBC has Government amendment No. 13: high broadcasting standards. RTE has matched In page 5, line 6, after “broadcasting” to those, probably because it competes with the insert “and sound broadcasting”. BBC. We should acknowledge that, although it may not be popular.

Amendment agreed to. Mr. Mooney: It is true.

Amendment No. 14 not moved. Mr. N. Dempsey: RTE has increasingly taken on that national responsibility in regard to Government amendment No. 15: internal issues, not necessarily political ones. It In page 5, subsection (2)(a), line 21, after is increasingly assuming responsibility in certain “national” to insert “television”. areas and there are times when it could play a leadership role on particular issues. There is no Amendments Nos. 16 to 25, inclusive, not need for it to be party political, Government- moved. oriented, etc., in this regard. As an example, I wish to cite some of the special reports the station Question proposed: “That section 3, as has produced in respect of road safety. These amended, stand part of the Bill.” reports have highlighted an important issue. Another issue about which everyone is talking Mr. Mooney: I thank Senator Henry for her and which will become even more important and kind remarks. It is a pleasure to be able to present central to politics is that of climate change and such programmes for the Irish abroad. Senator the need to educate people in that regard. There Henry’s points about how RTE presents the are matters of this nature in respect of which image of Ireland abroad are extremely significant. RTE can play a role, without being obliged to Now that it is being given the legal vehicle to stray into the area of party politics. present Ireland abroad, through radio prog- I take Senator Henry’s related point regarding rammes, it has an added responsibility because broadcasting to the Irish community abroad. In it is no longer broadcasting only to a domestic that context, others will be watching when this audience. As a child I tuned into the overseas service commences and this will be a wonderful services of a myriad radio stations from Radio opportunity to highlight what is happening in Monaco to Radio Moscow, to the extent that today’s modern and vibrant Ireland to people people thought I was becoming a Communist. other than those whose roots are here and who The BBC overseas service is a benchmark are aware of the nature of our culture. The new radio service. While it does not overtly present service will serve a useful purpose in this regard. the British Government’s line because it has a Senator Henry also inquired about 2FM and reputation for objectivity in its news reporting, it Lyric FM. I stand open to correction by my presents the image of the United Kingdom inter- officials but I understand that because they are nationally. I hope that the Minister, because of RTE stations, they are covered by the reference his overarching role in policy-making, will convey to RTE and do not need to be specifically men- to RTE that it is not only a matter of technology tioned. If I am wrong, however, I will correct the or of the fact that it has a remit to transmit prog- position later. rammes abroad but that it is a challenge. I am pleased to hear the Minister say that RTE has Question put and agreed to. 1873 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1874

SECTION 4. The amendment was framed in a way designed to keep matters straightforward and simple. I An Cathaoirleach: Amendments Nos. 26 and hope the Minister will note the use of the phrase 36 are related and may be taken together by “to ensure as far as practicable that Irish broad- agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. casting services are readily accessible on the elec- tronic programme guide”. I hope, therefore, that Ms O’Meara: I move amendment No. 26: it will be possible for him to accept the In page 6, subsection (1), line 17, after amendment. “1960” to insert the following: Mr. Quinn: I support amendment No. 26. I wish “and to ensure as far as practicable that Irish to declare an interest in that I have a small invest- broadcasting services are readily accessible on ment in Channel 6 and I know how frustrated the electronic programme guide”. those in charge of the station are regarding the Section 4 is central to the Bill in that it sets out fact that it was assigned channel 223 on the elec- the additional functions of the commission. The tronic programming guide on Monday last. I issue to which I wish to refer is that involving imagine that if we are governed by the market- multiplexes. One of the matters that has arisen place and by what customers want, I presume in discussions on the Bill is that relating to the those responsible for making a decision in this electronic programming guide, EPG. Amend- regard will come to the conclusion that Irish audi- ment No. 26 is designed to ensure that an ences will want Irish stations to be placed near additional function of the commission would be the top of the EPG in order that they will not be to ensure “that Irish broadcasting services are required to travel as far as channel 223. I support readily accessible on the electronic programming Senator O’Meara’s amendment because it would guide”. The Minister and those who are members be of value that customers should be able to read- of the Joint Committee on Communications, ily access that which they seek. Marine and Natural Resources will be aware that those involved with Channel 6 have raised this Dr. Henry: I also support the amendment. I issue because the station has been assigned a had not identified the necessity in this regard position that is extremely low down on the elec- because I had taken it for granted Irish channels tronic programming guide. would appear near the top of the guide. This is an important matter. I do not have a satellite or multichannel system in my house. I Mr. N. Dempsey: I agree this is an extremely have little enough time available to me to spend important matter. That is why it is being dealt it watching television. I am aware, however, of with in the Bill and in amendment No. 36. I am how the system relating to satellite channels sure RTE, as a public service, will show a clip on works. Although the channel menu is extremely this evening’s “Oireachtas Report” of somebody well set out and provides people with an idea of saying that Channel 6 can be found on channel what is on and what will follow, the order in 223 of the electronic programming guide. I was which the many channels appear on this menu is not aware of that. I sought out Channel 6 but I very important. Ireland is a small country and it became fed up trawling through the various is important our national stations should appear other channels. high up on the menu to facilitate Irish viewers. I Senator O’Meara’s amendment is not needed accept an agreement is in existence between Sky because of the specifics of the legislation. The dif- and RTE to the effect that RTE 1, TV3, etc., are ficulty regarding the existing satellite system is easily seen and accessible on the menu. However, that it falls outside of Irish regulation and, as those at Channel 6 are extremely agitated by the such, we have no control over it. The current fact that the station is effectively invisible on the position obtains as a result of grace and favour electronic programming guide that is available at on the part of Sky. We should acknowledge what present. I tabled this amendment to add to the Sky has done in this regard and its actions made list of responsibilities and duties of the BCI, when commercial sense. Cable and DTT will come digital is rolled out and when the Irish DTT under Irish regulation and, therefore, this Bill, system is in place, that it should ensure Irish combined with the 2001 Act, will mean the EPGs stations are easily accessible and seen on the elec- relating to the cable and DTT networks will give tronic programming guide. priority to Irish stations. There will be no need to It is important for members of the community use terms such as “as far as is practicable” to have instant access to their preferred sources because it will be specifically stated. of information. It is also important that Irish Amendment No. 36 to section 9 involves a channels appear high up on the electronic pro- restating of paragraphs (c) and (d). While the gramming guide. After all, it is difficult enough restatements are not substantial in nature and to compete with the increasing number of chan- while the fundamental meanings are not being nels that are becoming available. The control of changed, the word “continued” is used in the the EPG is an important issue. That is why the amendment. This is the case in order that the BCI commission should have a particular responsi- can ensure multiplex providers will provide bility in this regard. ongoing content and do not reduce it. The 1875 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1876

[Mr. N. Dempsey.] shall comply with such a direction”. I take the amendment also improves the drafting of para- Minister’s word that it will work—— graph (c). An operator that maintains a multiplex on a particular basis must maintain it at the initial Mr. N. Dempsey: I thank the Senator. level and cannot reduce its content. Amendment No. 36 will change the provisions Ms O’Meara: ——and on that basis I will with- in paragraph (d) and stipulate that the BCI must draw the amendment. consider issues around multiplex reception and compatibility across multiplexes. It is vital that all Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. the television multiplexes in an area, including the RTE multiplex, can be seen on the one set- An Cathaoirleach: Amendment No. 27 is a top box. The Broadcasting Commission of Government amendment. Amendments Nos. 33 Ireland, BCI, must seek to ensure that applicants to 35, inclusive, are related. Amendments Nos. 27 take that into consideration in their applications. and 33 to 35, inclusive, may be taken together by It is also important that viewers can keep them- agreement. Is that agreed? Agreed. selves informed of services across all the mul- tiplexes in an organised and coherent way. View- Government amendment No. 27: ers do that through a menu or the electronic In page 6, between lines 25 and 26, to insert programme guide, EPG. These can be produced the following subsection: locally and automatically in the set-top box or created and transmitted to viewers in a controlled “(4) It shall be a duty of the Commission to fashion over an overriding EPG. The provisions endeavour to arrange, as a matter of priority, in paragraph (d) will now ensure both types of for the establishment, maintenance and oper- EPG must be taken into consideration by mul- ation of three national television multiplexes, tiplex applicants and by the BCI when it is judg- which multiplexes, in so far as it is reasonably ing the application submitted. practicable, shall be capable of being trans- Section 16 of the Broadcasting Act 2001 con- mitted by digital terrestrial means to the whole tains further conditions to ensure the priority of community in the State.”. Irish broadcasting services on EPGs. This amend- ment Bill also proposes, in section 13, to apply Mr. N. Dempsey: Amendment No. 27 to section 16 of the 2001 Act to the DTT framework section 4 and amendments Nos. 33 to 35, inclus- proposed. We are pulling three different Acts ive, to section 8 should be considered together. into place. The aim of the amendments is to emphasise the With regard to amendment No. 26 on the posi- importance of the BCI moving quickly to contract tioning of Irish broadcasting services and the with applicants for national television mul- electronic programme guides, I ask Senators to tiplexes. The BCI will be obliged to consider examine section 13 of the Bill. It provides that DTT as a priority. under section 16 of the 2001 Act relating to the A key issue is ensuring a degree of coherence electronic programming guides for existing in timing around the RTE roll-out of its DTT broadcasting services, that will now apply to DTT multiplex, and the separate DTT multiplex is to services. That is not clear from the amendment be licensed by the BCI. While BCI may in due Bill because one must refer to two other Bills. course consider regional or local television mul- The existing provisions under section 16(5) of the tiplexes, it is important that these first multiplexes 2001 Act remain, that is, that any EPG produced give significant national coverage, taking into under this section may be easily used by members consideration the commercial realities. of the public to access the programme schedules The proposed Government amendments of Irish broadcasting services. We do not even use address the issues raised by Senators O’Meara, the phrase “as far as practicable”. It is important Ryan, McDowell, Tuffy and McCarthy in their that it happens. It is already stipulated in legis- amendment No. 35. I accept fully the spirit of the lation and we are just bringing it forward. That amendment but I propose amendments Nos. 27, ensures that Irish broadcasting services will be in 33 and 34 to achieve the same objective in a man- prominent positions. Since that provision already ner that is in keeping with the structure of the exists, Senator O’Meara’s amendment is not Bill. For that reason I cannot accept amendment necessary. The principle is an important one and No. 35. It is another case of where we are all try- it was important to include it in the Bill. ing to achieve the same objective and I believe we can do so. Ms O’Meara: I thank the Minister for his amendment and for setting out the requirement Ms O’Meara: The Minister’s amendment in the Act. I accept the Minister’s point that the appears to meet our concerns. I agree with the legislation covers this but I note section 13, which Minister that we are all singing from the same amends the Act of 2001, states that the com- hymn sheet. It is important that the BCI moves mission may give a direction to the multiplex con- quickly to arrange for the establishment of the tractor. It ends with the following statement: “... multiplexes. 1877 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1878

Will the Minister clarify one point? His amend- Ireland? A reciprocal arrangement could be then ment No. 27 states that it will be the duty of the introduced whereby RTE television would also commission to arrange for the establishment etc. be likewise transmitted. of three national multiplexes. Does the Minster see that happening simultaneously or one after Mr. Quinn: I did not realise Senator Mooney’s the other? That is an important point. My under- suggestion could be a potential solution to the standing is that there is no reason the BCI could problem. A cousin of mine who lives in not roll out two simultaneously, which might Newcastle, County Down, regularly contacts me meet some of our concerns regarding a point we to express her frustration that although the town have not yet discussed, namely, free-to-air access, is close to the Border, she cannot receive RTE. especially of British channels currently available It may be due to the physical proximity of the free to air on the east coast. That is in the context Mourne Mountains or the Cooley Mountains. of the availability of those channels which will no The various solutions proposed by Senators longer be available when the analogue system Mooney and Henry deserve attention. There ends. Will the Minister clarify that point? I accept must be a strong body of people in Northern that the amendment meets our concerns. Ireland who would like to participate in an all- Ireland television station. Dr. Henry: On the free-to-air British channels that are easily received in most areas of the coun- Mr. N. Dempsey: Whether the establishment of try, will one of these multiplexes take care of them? I do not suppose the Minister is in a posi- the national multiplexes will happen simul- tion to force them to do so but I would have taneously or sequentially, is a matter for the BCI. thought that was important. Will there be any My preferred option is for the BCI to run the competition among the various groups that will competition for all three national multiplexes set up these multiplexes so that we will know simultaneously, as it would bring coherence to what each is offering? the process. Hopefully, there will be more than I scarcely dare mention this but is there any three consortia competing in the process. problem about political agreement on this issue? However, I believe that even before that stage is I am aware it is all part of the Good Friday reached, there may be much competition among Agreement under which we will all have access the various consortia to get the best channel com- to each other’s television and radio stations and binations for their proposed multiplexes. so on but in the past, before the Good Friday The Good Friday Agreement referred specifi- Agreement, when I brought up accessibility of cally to TG4. The station is available in Northern the RTE stations in areas of Northern Ireland Ireland and its transmitter on the Divis Mountain where there was no overspill, I was told there was was switched on some time ago. RTE 1 and RTE a problem getting agreement for rebroadcasting 2 are available in Border areas by overspill only, in such areas. I presume it can be taken there is as are UTV and BBC. It is not a matter of politi- political agreement on all this. cal will or agreement in making these channels available on either side of the Irish Sea or North Mr. Mooney: I had intended waiting until the and South. Serious questions concerning copy- debate on the section to raise Senator Henry’s right have given rise to difficulties. If RTE were important point. In light of what is included as to transmit to the UK, obviously its copyright fees part of these amendments, section 4(4)(b) states: would increase substantially. There have been “any television broadcasting service in Northern discussions between the Taoiseach and the Mini- Ireland that is notified to the Commission by the ster for Foreign Affairs with their UK counter- Minister, being a service that is receivable parts in working out an arrangement in this throughout the whole of Northern Ireland and is regard. provided by terrestrial means”. All of us who The introduction of DTT will assist trans- have been following this issue are aware that mission of the various channels. If a consortia can there is some resistance on the British side to allowing access to RTE television within convince the BBC to be broadcast on its mul- Northern Ireland. I understand, and perhaps the tiplex, everyone in Ireland will be guaranteed to Minister will confirm this, that under the terms of receive it. Likewise for RTE in Northern Ireland. the Good Friday Agreement it was agreed by There is a commercial interest in this. The switch- both sides that TG4 should be accessible, off of analogue transmission will end the overspill especially in parts of Belfast where the signal is of BBC, HTV and UTV into this jurisdiction. not readily available. It is interesting that as it There is, however, an audience for these chan- was seen as an Irish language channel and had a nels, of which those consortia setting up mul- cultural dimension, there was no difficulty in it tiplexes will be only be too conscious. In turn, being broadcast there. Is it possible in the Mini- they will want their multiplexes to carry these ster’s discussions with his British counterpart that channels. consideration might be given to amending the I do not believe it has reached the level of BBC’s charter to legally permit the transmission amending the BBC’s charter. The copyright of BBC Northern Ireland across the island of aspect is the more difficult one. 1879 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1880

Mr. Finucane: There is much competition operation in both directions, east-west and North- between satellite, terrestrial and cable broadcast South, in terms of common channels and so on. providers. On Second Stage, all Members wel- This Bill facilitates such developments by provid- comed the necessity to switch from analogue ing a framework under which they are attainable transmission to DTT. However, commercial con- not merely for two thirds of the Republic or one cerns exist about the provision of the DTT plat- third of the North but on an all-island basis. This form and to what degree it could impact on the is something we will examine. I have no doubt other commercial operators in this field if State from discussions I have had with various people funding were provided. Will the Minister outline that this is not far from the minds of those who his thoughts on this matter? are talking in terms of trying to put together mul- tiplexes. They will avail of this legislation into the Mr. Mooney: I am grateful to the Minister for future and will utilise a multiplex on the DTT clarifying the situation. Will the provision of a framework. multiplex broadcasting to the UK have to address I assure the Senator that I am not dismissing copyright issues? It is accepted there will be no the point he is making. In regard to the BBC re-broadcast of current RTE television services charter, there may be something specific that pro- because of these rights issues. American soap hibits the wider availability of its services on a operas, movies, sporting events broadcast on free-to-air basis, just as the legislation prohibited RTE have attached rights to them. It will be a RTE in this regard. It is not the main hurdle we challenge as to the mix of programmes that will must overcome, however, and where there is a be broadcast on the multiplex for the UK. will there is a way. On Second Stage, I explained one of the main Senator Finucane asked about the fact that I reasons Tara Television failed was because it used the word “commercial” on several occasions mainly used archive material from the 1970s and in reference to DTT services. The provision of 1980s and did not reflect Irish current affairs. All broadcasting services on a DTT platform is a involved in this area will know that the Irish com- commercial enterprise. One of the multiplexes munity in the UK is anxious to get contemporary will be free-to-air and will include RTE and the news and current affairs programmers from RTE other terrestrial Irish channels. All other services, because they want to feel the sense of belonging however, will be commercial. Senator Finucane to the nation. I agree commercial interests will asked specifically about the effects of the DTT dictate the number of channels. The popularity of platform on other commercial providers. The British channels in Ireland, it has been suggested, answer is that it will represent competition for has given rise to a form of blackmail. If one wants them. I cannot answer how effective the compe- British channels one has to sign up to providers tition will be or who will win the battle. Commer- such as Sky, NTL and Chorus. cial operators will make decisions on the basis of Will the Minister explain the references to whether they believe they will get a return. They Northern Ireland, the BCI and its obligations will have to vie for their place in the market. regarding the provision of services? Is there some DTT is something that is mandated. The reason way to address this deficit? While the EU is so keen for analogue switch-off by 2012 4 o’clock BBC television is generally available at the latest is all to do with having spectrum across two-thirds of the country, available for an entire range of services other RTE television is not available in large parts of than television broadcasting, including telecom- Northern Ireland. It is not simply a matter of say- munications, emergency services and so on. I take ing it is available to anybody who wants it. Ensur- the view that we should not be totally dependent ing such availability may require additional on the private sector and that public infrastruc- expenditure and the erection of a 50 ft. aerial. My ture should be in place that allows us to provide concern is that people in the North, particularly public service broadcasting on a DTT platform. members of the Unionist community, are getting Some of the commercial interests may not be best an unbalanced view of this part of the island. pleased about this, but it is in the national interest I am passionately committed to the view that that we ensure this is the case. That is why the RTE should be available across the island, includ- Government, with the agreement of all sides in ing those large parts of the North where it is not both Houses, brought this section of the Bill for- currently available. The Minister knows more ward. We must take action in this regard sooner about this than I do because he deals with rather than later. These developments will create officials at senior level. My suggestion of a char- additional competition for existing providers but ter amendment is one possible way forward. We they are absolutely necessary in the national are essentially at one on this; I know the Minister interest. would also like to see this happen. All we can do is urge him to continue to make the appropriate Mr. O’Toole: The Minister referred to co-oper- representations. ation on an east-west basis and across the entire island. Bearing in mind the Treaty of Rome and Mr. N. Dempsey: We are all largely ad idem on EU regulations governing the free movement of this issue. In regard to maximising the reach of labour and services, I contend that the franchise RTE television, it would be good if there were co- areas operated by Sky Television are anti-Euro- 1881 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1882 pean and anti-competitive and should be Europe is anti-European in that it mitigates challenged. against the free movement of labour and services. I completely agree with the Minister’s point, That is not available. In terms of our message as which I have made myself on many occasions, a country and an economy, this would be very that we should not be dependent on Sky Tele- attractive and something for which we should vision. I do not understand or support the notion strive. that RTE should be encrypted on Sky. The opportunities we are missing out on are extra- Mr. N. Dempsey: I acknowledge what Senator ordinary. The Sky astro satellite has a footprint O’Toole said in this regard. It is certainly a novel that stretches from Belmullet to the Balkans and idea blanking out some of the programmes as one south through most of Spain. All of that audience transmits freely across Europe. It is encrypted on is available to us to put forward our message. satellite because if it was in the clear, there would Public service channels in small countries such as be the major copyright issues I mentioned earlier. Cyprus and Malta, for instance, can be tuned into I will raise the Senator’s point about whether on a free-to-air basis throughout Europe. One home produced news and current affairs prog- can tune into RTE from any place in Europe but rammes could be free-to-air across Europe to see one cannot receive the signal unless one is a Sky if it is a possibility. Part of the reason the BBC customer. can do what it does is that it owns the rights on The Minister said something revolutionary Freesat. today and it is only fair to recognise that. It is important that we should not be dependent on Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. the private sector — in this case, Sky Television. It would be easy for us to take satellite space on Amendments Nos. 28 to 31, inclusive, not our own and to broadcast our public service chan- moved. nels on exactly the same frequency and geosta- tionary reception area as they are currently Section 4, as amended, agreed to. assigned by Sky. An Irish person living in Brussels, Rome, Madrid or the south of France Sections 5 to 7, inclusive, agreed to. can happily watch Gaelic games or anything else on RTE television so long as they have gone to a NEW SECTION. shop in Ireland and bought a Sky satellite decoder and card and brought them with them. Mr. Quinn: I move amendment No. 32: I have had many discussions in recent years In page 9, before section 8, to insert the fol- with RTE about why the service is encrypted lowing new section: rather then free-to-air. By putting up a satellite dish anywhere in France, Italy, Spain or the “8.—(1) It shall be a duty of the Commission Benelux countries, one can, without being a Sky for Communications Regulation to arrange for subscriber, tune into BBC1, BBC2, BBC3, BBC4, the collection of the annual tv licence from all ITV1, ITV2, ITV3 and ITV4, all free-to-air. RTE, those liable to pay such a licence, and to make however, cannot be received because it is available promptly to the Minister the full pro- encrypted. RTE says the reason it is encrypted is ceeds of such collection. to do with the purchase of programmes and (2) In arranging for the collection of the related strictures regarding audience sizes. I do annual tv licence, the Commission shall have not accept that explanation. However, even an special regard to— arrangement whereby some programmes could be blanked out but news and home-made prog- (a) minimising the expenses of the collec- rammes could be broadcast free-to-air would be tion process, and a major advance. (b) ensuring the maximum possible com- Every group of Irish emigrants in Europe to pliance by those liable. whom I have spoken raises this issue. RTE’s response is that such people can tune in via the (3) Before putting in place a system of collec- Internet. Many do so but the service should be tion, the Commission shall research best prac- available to view free-to-air. All over Europe, tice from around the world in the efficient col- RTE Radio 1 and Radio 2, Lyric FM and Raidio´ lection of tv licences, and in particular shall pay na Gaeltachta can be accessed. Ta´ siadsan ar fa´il special attention to arrangements (such as cur- on EPG simply. Why is this not the case in regard rently apply in Cyprus) which take advantage to RTE television services? The simplest way to of an existing universal collection arrangement such as the domestic electricity bill. facilitate the east-west co-operation to which the Minister referred is to have the RTE signal (4) At five-yearly intervals following the encrypted on an astro satellite platform so that commencement of this section, the Com- viewers in Europe do not need to be Sky sub- mission for Communications Regulation shall scribers to access it. I ask the Minister to take on arrange to have carried out an independent board this suggestion and to investigate whether assessment of the effectiveness of the collection the movement by Sky to create franchise areas in arrangements in place, and shall provide an 1883 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1884

[Mr. Quinn.] approach but it is quite separate to the fundamen- immediate report on such assessment to the tal characteristic of the Cypriot approach which Minister who shall as soon as may be place it is to roll together the collection of the television before each House of the Oireachtas.”. licence and the electricity bill. The reason this makes sense is that these days, Mr. N. Dempsey: I apologise to Senator Quinn ownership of a television set is virtually universal. but I must leave the House for approximately 15 There is not 100% ownership but I gather it is to 20 minutes. The Minister of State, Deputy probably 97%. That is why we should concentrate Browne, will take over. on the very few exceptions, namely, the few people who decide not to have a television. We Mr. Quinn: The reason I propose this amend- should make them apply for the exemption from ment is that we have a seriously dysfunctional the television levy. For everybody else, we should method of collecting our television licence. The assume they have a television and charge them effect of it is to waste a large proportion of the accordingly instead of wasting a large amounts of money collected. That money is lost to broadcast- money on detection vans and on schemes to find ing. A further effect is that a large and increasing those who seek to avoid paying. The majority of number of people succeed in evading payment of people would greatly prefer a better and more the licence fee altogether. That creates unfairness efficient way to collect the television licence and makes life more expensive for the majority because it would make significantly greater funds of law-abiding people. available to be spent on broadcasting. In the Since the licence fee was first collected in the interests of all those working in the industry, we 1920s, there has been no change in the approach should push for such an approach. to the manner in which it is collected. We still I purposely used words such as “shall have collect the licence free in exactly the same way special regard to”. In other words, I am not say- we did more than 80 years ago despite all the ing we have to do this but it is something at which changes which have taken place in the meantime. we should look. There is much validity in this My amendment proposes that we take a funda- approach. Having worn an An Post hat in the mental look at the television licence fee and at past, I would be regarded as somebody who is how it is collected, and that we substitute our cur- being disloyal to it if it is no longer being given rent way of doing things with a more efficient and the job and the licence fee is to be added to the modern way to achieve our objectives in this area. electricity bill. It is not a solution to say it is being We need new thinking by a new set of people done by somebody at present. If it is not the most who will not carry any of the baggage of the exist- efficient way of collecting the licence, we should ing players. We need people who will stand back find a more efficient way to do so. My amend- from the current situation and devise a better ment is worthy of consideration and I look for- way. I have no doubt a better way can be devised. ward to the Minister’s reply. The television licence is a tax. Any taxation expert will tell one that a primary consideration Ms O’Meara: I support Senator Quinn’s with every tax is how much it costs to collect it. amendment which is, as usual, a practical and The ideal is a tax which, in effect, collects itself. sensible approach to an important issue. As he The ultimate horror is a tax that needs a special, quite rightly said, money is being used — I do not dedicated mechanism to collect it. It is horrific want to say “wasted” — collecting the licence fee because that way is always the most expensive which is then not available for its initial and most way to collect a tax. important purpose, namely, public service broad- My amendment proposes that before creating casting. It is a worthwhile amendment and I hope a new arrangement for collecting the television the Minister will consider it. licence, we should look around the world to see what lessons can be learned from experience in Dr. Henry: We should listen carefully to other countries. One such country is Cyprus Senator Quinn who has decades of experience which has a delightfully simple way to collect its collecting money very successfully. It is important television licence. It is added to everybody’s elec- we take note of what he says despite the fact I tricity bill each billing period. In effect, collecting very much enjoy the advertisements on the tele- the licence costs virtually nothing. Compliance is vision where a man is watching a golfer just about not the issue since people must pay their elec- to take a putt when the television licence inspec- tricity bill or their power is cut off. tor knocks on the door, or where there is some There is another feature of the Cypriot system romantic interlude on television when the tele- which we might consider adopting. Instead of a vision licence inspector arrives in. I support what fixed amount being collected for the television Senator Quinn said because we are probably licence — in other words, everybody pays the expending a lot of money on the small number same amount — they levy a certain proportion of who do not have television licences. The simplest the cost of one’s electricity bill. In that way, they way to do this is probably the best way. ensure better off people, who presumably spend There is the dreadful situation at present where more on electricity, also pay more for their tele- people are being sent to jail for non-payment of vision licence. There are attractions to this fines. While I know legislation is being brought 1885 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1886 forward on this issue, it is a terrible waste of vision licence fee, its collection and whether suit- money. This proposal would get rid of that able alternatives exist. The Government proposes element. People are far more likely to pay their to bring forward legislative proposals in respect electricity bill than their television licence. of this issue in light of the outcome of the e-con- sultation process. Mr. Mooney: All Members on the Government As for the issues raised by Members, a variety side of the House wonder whether Senator Quinn of mechanisms are used to fund public service knows more about An Post than do they, given broadcasting. Most of northern Europe avails of his past experience as its chairman. Moreover, television licences. The Netherlands applies a while the Minister of State will have a view on special levy on income tax, France levies a house- the underlying text of the amendment, I support hold tax, Spain and Flanders provide direct the motives behind it. It is important to realise Exchequer funding while Greece, Turkey and that the efficient collection of the television Cyprus avail of television licences. The United licence has a direct impact on television and radio Kingdom, which is most similar to Ireland, programming as it pertains to RTE. I understand recently reviewed the concept of the television the split in broadcasting revenue has changed in licence and decided that while it is not a perfect favour of the commercial side. This constitutes a system, no immediate alternative exists. The Brit- danger, because the original concept was that ish authorities will review the issue in 2012. public service broadcasting effectively would be As the Government is considering this issue at funded on a 50:50 basis and that the public would present in the context of the wider broadcasting pay a television licence that would largely fund Bill, on which consultation is under way, this RTE. Unfortunately, when commercial interests matter is not appropriate to the Bill under con- become involved, a form of creeping commercial- sideration. However, I share the Members’ senti- ism takes place that can dilute the public service ments and I expect the matter will be dealt with concept. This is particularly true in the media, as more effectively when the forthcoming broadcast- Members will have witnessed in other areas. ing Bill comes before the Houses of the Public service broadcasting is coming under Oireachtas. increasing threat across Europe and anything that will improve the efficient collection of television Mr. Quinn: I thank the Minister of State for his licence fees is to be welcomed. However, I am consideration. I did not necessarily expect that uncertain whether this suggestion is the correct the amendment would be accepted at this time. approach to take. Members on the Government However, it should be noted that the amendment benches have been considering the Cypriot did not outline what should be done. It suggested example, which makes use of the electricity bill. the commission should have regard to the manner What happens if someone has a private gener- in which it is done. I feel frustrated when I ator, if someone wants to opt out, or, human nat- encounter surmountable inefficiencies and I ure being what it is, if someone pirates electricity believe this to be an inefficient method of col- from others? In addition, were this method to be lecting television licence fees. used, it would be necessary to consider refusals Last year, I was contacted by a highly annoyed to pay licence fees on the basis of not having a individual, who is quite anti-television and does television set. However, these are only minor not possess a set. However, he had received a let- quibbles and I do not wish to detract from the ter from An Post that accused him of failing to highly measured approach adopted by Senator pay his licence fee. I contacted An Post about the Quinn while tabling this amendment before the matter and its representative explained to me that House. since so few people did not have television sets, the organisation deemed it acceptable to assume Minister of State at the Department of that everyone has one. I assume An Post is Communications, Marine and Natural Resources obliged to apologise to the few who do not — (Mr. J. Browne): While I share the concern although I did not hear an apology. It assumed expressed by Senator Quinn and other Members that everyone has a television set and I under- to the effect that the collection of television stand it was correct in approximately 97% or 98% licence fees should be efficient and effective, I do of cases. However, the remaining 2% to 3%, for not propose to accept this amendment. The issue whom this was incorrect, were upset because they of the television licence fee and the manner in had been accused of failing to pay their tele- which it is collected is being reviewed actively in vision licences. the context of the draft general scheme of the I mention this because this method appears to forthcoming broadcasting Bill. As the Senator is be inefficient and other ways may be better. The probably aware, the draft general scheme has method used in Cyprus impressed me. While I been submitted to the Oireachtas Joint Commit- understand the Minister’s methods differ from tee on Communications, Marine and Natural those operating in other countries, I suggest the Resources for public consultation under the e- Cypriot method should be included and put into consultation initiative. I understand there has the melting pot in whatever Bill is tabled by the been considerable comment during the course of Government to consider the best method of col- the consultation process on the basis for the tele- lecting the fee. 1887 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1888

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. “(f) the technical proposal, including a timetable for implementation, regarding the SECTION 8. establishment, maintenance and operation of the proposed multiplex,”. Government amendment No. 33: In page 9, subsection (1), line 11, after ”mul- Mr. J. Browne: Amendment No. 37 makes an tiplexes“ to insert ”and subject to subsection amendment to section 9, in that it requires the (2)”. Broadcasting Commission of Ireland to consider additionally the timetable for the implementation Amendment agreed to. of the technical proposals submitted by multiplex contractors. It is important to ensure that all mul- Government amendment No. 34: tiplexes are rolled out in a timely manner and that the contractors adhere to construction time- In page 9, between lines 15 and 16, to insert tables. This will also help to ensure compatibility the following subsection: between the multiplexes. “(2) Without prejudice to subsection (1), the Commission shall within six months after Amendment agreed to. this section has come into force endeavour Section 9, as amended, agreed to. to invite applications for multiplex contracts in respect of the three national television Section 10 agreed to. multiplexes referred to in section 4(4).”. SECTION 11. Amendment agreed to. Amendments Nos. 38 to 45, inclusive, not Amendment No. 35 not moved. moved.

Section 8, as amended, agreed to. Ms O’Meara: I move amendment No. 46: In page 12, subsection (2), between lines 43 SECTION 9. and 44, to insert the following: Government amendment No. 36: “(d) the principal British television broad- casting services which are free to air as of the In page 10, subsection (2), lines 13 to 20, to enactment of this Act.”. delete paragraphs (c) and (d) and substitute the following: Reference has already been made to this issue in the context of previous amendments. It pertains “(c) the range and type of programme to the question arising from the fact that at material or compilations of programme present, British television stations and services material proposed to be included in the mul- are available free to air to a substantial part of tiplex by the applicant and how the applicant Ireland. The figure for the number of households proposes to secure continued inclusion of that receive British broadcasting services at such material, present due to what is known as the spill-over on (d) in the case of a television multiplex, the analogue service varies and may be open to any proposals by the applicant for promoting dispute. However, the fact remains that a sub- the acquisition by persons in the proposed stantial proportion of Ireland receives the British coverage area of equipment capable of— channels free to air at present and has done so for many years. (i) receiving all of the television mul- Earlier, the Minister stated that the first mul- tiplexes available or expected to be avail- tiplex roll-out would maintain the Irish stations able in that area, including the national on a free to air basis. This has always been my multiplex referred to in section 3(2)(a), understanding and is as it should be. However, and like me the Minister is a politician and I am sure (ii) enabling such persons to keep them- he is aware that in the past, this issue has been selves informed of the choice of prog- contentious. I refer to the deflector issue. People ramme material included in those mul- have been receiving additional services and this tiplexes,”. issue could become contentious when the ana- logue service is switched off and its digital replacement is introduced. I doubt whether many Amendment agreed to. people are aware at present that in future, they will be obliged to pay for something that is now Government amendment No. 37: free. Members are aware of what people are like In page 10, subsection (2), lines 24 and 25, to when it comes to such matters. delete paragraph (f) and substitute the While I recognise the Minister’s remarks in following: respect of copyright and so on, an opportunity is 1889 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1890 available to make what is currently available on Ms O’Meara: I am aware of that. RTE will the east coast available on a nationwide basis. have the first multiplex. However, the BCI will Previously, the Minister for Communications, roll out the other multiplexes which we discussed Marine and Natural Resources stated three mul- at some length. The BCI should be required to tiplexes are planned and in their roll-out, the ensure the British channels available free-to-air British services available free-to-air on the east to a substantial part of the country will continue coast will become free to air in the rest of the to remain free-to-air to them and, on a more country. I accept issues may arise and the reason equitable basis, be free-to-air to everyone in the I tabled the amendment is to tease out this country. I did not hear a good reason not to do so. important matter and hear the Minister of Previously, the Minister for Communications, State’s response. Marine and Natural Resources discussed copy- right issues. If they must be explored, let us Dr. Henry: I support Senator O’Meara. This is explore them. I did not hear a solid reason in the an important issue. We discussed it earlier and we Minister of State’s reply to reject my amendment. do not need to go through it again. However, we did not discuss the financial cost. I presume an Mr. Browne: As the Minister for Communi- additional cost will arise if these channels are on cations, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy one of the multiplexes which will charge. Senator Noel Dempsey, stated, the Irish public has long O’Meara makes a good point in that the entire enjoyed the happy accident of the overspill of UK project will not be a success if those who now analogue services. The UK will switch off these receive these channels for free find they must pay services over the next five years. This has nothing for them. to do with the roll-out of Irish DTT. It is simply the actions of the UK authorities in planning for Mr. Browne: It is anticipated the UK overspill their spectrum use. Some DTT overspill is likely will be reduced from 2008 when the analogue to be available in the future. However, enacting switch-off is planned. However, UK services are this legislation will create a framework for a mul- already available to Irish viewers on cable, satel- tichannel framework on DTT in Ireland. lite and MMDS services. While I recognise the concerns of Senators about the availability of UK An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is the amendment broadcasting services to Irish households, my being pressed? primary aim is to create a legislative framework for Irish broadcasting services. Therefore, I Ms O’Meara: This is a very important issue. I cannot accept the amendment proposed. will re-submit the amendment on Report Stage I expect that with the full roll-out of DTT and on that basis, I withdraw the amendment and services, multiplex operators will offer UK TV ask the Minister of State to consider this services given the level of demand which exists in important point. What the Minister of State is the Irish market. In addition, while UK analogue stating to the public, especially those with free- to-air access to British broadcasting services, is services will be switched off from 2008, a degree the Government is happy for that access to go of UK digital spillover may remain available to and for people to pay for it. Irish viewers. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Ms O’Meara: Will the Minister of State expand on his final sentence regarding future UK digital Government amendment No. 47: spillover? To whom will the spillover be available and where? Will the current inequality between In page 13, subsection (4), line 3, to delete one set of viewers and another continue? The paragraph (a) and substitute the following: intention of my amendment is to give everybody “(a) the holders of all television multiplex equal access to what many people, but not every- contracts,”. body, has.

Mr. Browne: I am advised some spillover will Amendment agreed to. occur, especially in Border areas, but not as much as happens at present. Amendment No. 48 not moved.

Ms O’Meara: That will be even worse than the Section 11, as amended, agreed to. present situation. I understood spillover would end when analogue was switched off. However, it Section 12 agreed to. seems the inequality will continue. I can neither agree with the Minister of State nor withdraw SECTION 13. the amendment. Government amendment No. 49: Mr. Browne: Unfortunately, the British have In page 14, line 15, after “a” to insert “te- decided to switch off and it is outside our control. levision”. 1891 Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2006: 7 February 2007. Committee Stage 1892

Amendment agreed to. SECTION 15.

Section 13, as amended, agreed to. Amendments Nos. 52 and 53 not moved.

NEW SECTION. Government amendment No. 54:

Government amendment No. 50: In page 15, line 19, after “service” to insert “and sound broadcasting service”. In page 14, before section 14, to insert the following new section: Amendment agreed to. “14.—Section 28 of the Act of 2001 is hereby amended— Section 15, as amended, agreed to. (a) by substituting the following for para- graphs (c) and (d) of subsection (8): Sections 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to. “(c) exercising all or any of the powers Schedule agreed to. conferred on it by subsection (2) (other than paragraphs (bb) and (bbb) (inserted Title agreed to. by this Act) thereof) of section 16 of the Act of 1960, Bill reported with amendments. (d) providing, pursuant to its powers under the Broadcasting Authority Acts An Leas-Chathaoirleach: When is it proposed 1960 to 2001, any service (other than a to take Report Stage? broadcasting service) for the benefit of the public, Mr. Kenneally: I had hoped to take Report Stage now because most of the concerns outlined (e) providing a service under subsection by Members on Committee Stage were dealt with (1A) of section 16 of the Act of 1960, and by the Minister. I accept, however, that Senator (f) the establishment, maintenance and O’Meara has a problem with a particular section operation of one or more national mul- and wishes to resubmit her amendment on tiplexes pursuant to subsection (1) of Report Stage. I will not push for Report Stage to section 16 of the Act of 1960.”, be taken now but suggest we take it next Tues- day, 13 February 2007. (b) by substituting the following for sub- section (10): Ms O’Meara: I thank the Acting Leader. “(10) Without prejudice to sections Report Stage ordered for Tuesday, 13 25(1) and 26 of the Act of 1960, the Auth- February 2007. ority shall, as soon as may be after the end of each financial year, make a report to the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I ask the Acting Minister of the use it has made with regard Leader to move the suspension of the House until to, respectively, the television broadcast- 5 p.m. ing service and the sound broadcasting service referred to in subsection (1) and Mr. Kenneally: I intended to move a change to the television broadcasting service and the Order of Business. Is that not possible? sound broadcasting service referred to in subsection (1A) of section 16 of the Act of An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Our understanding is 1960, of the moneys paid to it under that the House is to suspend until 5 p.m. section 8 of the Act of 1976 in that year for the purpose of the activities, during that year, referred to in paragraphs (a), (b) Mr. Kenneally: I understand that but, following and (c) of subsection (2) and paragraphs a conversation I had outside the Chamber, I (d) and (e) of subsection (8).”.”. intended to propose taking the Communications Regulation (Amendment) Bill 2007 now.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Acceptance of this Mr. Finucane: It was agreed on the Order of amendment involves the deletion of section 14. It Business this morning that there would be a sus- is a new section and was already discussed with pension of at least 30 minutes. amendment No. 4. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: The Chair’s under- Amendment agreed to. standing is that the House is to suspend until 5 p.m. Is that agreed? Agreed. Section 14 deleted. Sitting suspended at 4.40 p.m. and resumed at Amendment No. 51 not moved. 5 p.m. 1893 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1894

National Development Plan: Motion. we will be an attractive place from which to do business. An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I welcome the Mini- ster of State, Deputy Haughey, to the House. It I would have liked more to be spent on non- is his first occasion to appear here. national roads, given the great deal of work to be done in that respect, but it is not possible to do Mr. Haughey: Second. everything at once. There is greater emphasis on important regional roads connecting some of the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: I apologise. I con- main towns and funding for the rural transport gratulate the Minister of State and wish him well. initiative, aspects of which my parliamentary party discussed last night. Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. Contrary to the situation obtaining even ten years ago, emphasis has been placed on public Dr. Mansergh: I move: transport, which is proper. No one can accuse the Government of not investing substantial money ´ That Seanad Eireann in that sector. However, I have reservations. — welcomes the publication by the Mini- Were the rainbow Government to include a green ster for Finance of the National element — unfortunately, the Green Party is not Development Plan 2007-13; and represented in the House — that element would want to cut roads investment substantially, with — endorses this plan as a costed seven- which we would not agree. I would be surprised year blueprint to transform Ireland and if other parties agreed. create a better quality of life for all. I welcome the Minister of State to the House. His Mr. J. Phelan: Is the Senator ruling the Green late father would have been proud because he Party out before the next general election? produced the first national development plan with his colleagues in Government in the late Mr. B. Hayes: We have not ruled it out. 1980s. He placed tremendous emphasis on public investment. I regret that there is an amendment Mr. J. Phelan: I thought that Fianna Fa´il was to the motion. That practically everyone outside going to go into Government with the Green the House has welcomed the plan raises a doubt Party. about the degree of commitment of parties opposite to implementing the plan should they be An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Mansergh in Government. without interruption. The figure of \184 billion is a record. It is of historic significance that the European funding Dr. Mansergh: I have stated that we would not element, so important in previous plans, is negli- agree, which should be sufficient answer. gible at \3 billion. In the plan’s foreword, the Minister for Finance, who I gather will be in the Mr. B. Hayes: Nor would we agree. That is the House later, refers to the country reversing its answer to that. history and consolidating its progress. As has been observed by a number of commentators, our Dr. Mansergh: Balanced regional development healthy public finances and the fact we are not is one of the plan’s priorities, including the decen- facing a significant ageing population provide us tralisation programme, in respect of which \830 with a window of opportunity to address rapidly million will be allocated. The programme is pro- some of the infrastructural and service sector ceeding, but not as quickly as envisaged. With deficits. concern, I noted statements by the Dublin-based The previous plan accompanied an average finance spokespersons of both main Opposition annual economic growth of more than 5% and parties to the effect that they will conduct a fun- was consistent with a financial surplus in every damental review of the programme. Before the year except 2002 and a reduced gross Govern- general election, I hope proper clarification will ment debt of 25%. If one takes account of the be given—— National Pensions Reserve Fund, the latter figure is 15%. Mr. B. Hayes: By the Government. This plan has four priorities, namely, tackling infrastructural bottlenecks, providing necessary Dr. Mansergh: ——concerning the parties’ educational skills, providing high-value employ- commitment to decentralisation, some projects of ment and redistributing wealth to underpin social which are advanced. There is an emphasis on the inclusion. The \33 billion investment in transport diversification of the rural economy, where there is an important element. A sum of \13 billion will are already good schemes in operation, such as be invested in public transport, which is relevant RAPID, CLA´ R and REPS. It makes the point to competitiveness. For example, roads will be that Ireland is still a comparatively rural country, completed. We have the geographical advantage with 40% of the population living in the country- of being a compact island and nowhere is too far side. I commented yesterday on the Order of from anywhere else. When the roads are in place, Business on the notion of dropping a Department 1895 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1896

[Dr. Mansergh.] recycling from 9% in 1998, a minimal figure, to with responsibility for agriculture and rural 35% three years ago. Progress is being made but development, an utterly absurd idea. more should be done, such as investment in water Concern was expressed recently about value schemes, as I mentioned on the Order of Business for money. Clear figures are given which show this morning. cost inflation has been reduced from 12% to I have reservations about the large-scale 4%. We should not get lectures on value for deployment of wind energy when dealing with money from a party that suggested without any alternative energies. Caution is needed because costing that its manifesto would include a com- this depends on the siting of such facilities and mitment to a second Dublin airport somewhere communities must be included in the process. We in the middle of the countryside. cannot impose wind farms on areas where local communities do not want them. Mr. B. Hayes: Untrue. That is a lie. I welcome the \126 million to be spent on the islands, a sum that will achieve a great deal for Dr. Mansergh: It is wrong to make absolute the communities living on them. commitments to projects where there has been no I do not have time to go into detail on every proper analysis. aspect of the plan. Mr. B. Hayes: The Senator is misleading the Mr. J. Phelan: There is not much detail in it. House. \ Dr. Mansergh: I can give chapter and verse of Dr. Mansergh: The 3.5 billion to build up what the Fine Gael spokesperson, Deputy Olivia world class research is of great importance. We Mitchell, said. It is a cautionary tale. have made huge strides in the past ten years where instead of having derivative, applied and Mr. B. Hayes: Would it possible for the clerk second hand research, we are carrying out cutting to organise a large bowl of tranquilisers for edge research ourselves. Senator Mansergh? I welcome the further investment in education and the emphasis on science and physical edu- An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Senator Hayes cation. Obviously it is right to target resources to should resume his seat. achieve a pupil-teacher ration of 20:1 in primary schools but I am a universalist and believe we Mr. B. Hayes: Perhaps that would not be should strive to provide that for all classes. The enough. targets in the plan have the colour of Department of Finance thinking. It is socially progressive if it Dr. Mansergh: I am simply seeking more clarity is a first step but we should bring up the level and consistency from the main Opposition party. across the board because no area is more important than education. I also welcome the Ms O’Rourke: The teachers are to work longer 50,000 extra child care places and the plan for hours too. preschool places for those who need them. The plan recognises that in the health services Mr. B. Hayes: Hear, hear. there is a strong social class gradient that must be tackled. Health and survival rates fall according Dr. Mansergh: As far as aid for industry is con- to a person’s position on the social scale. That cerned, I welcome the weighting of support in favour of the less economically forward regions, is unacceptable. I welcome the \1 billion for the access prog- not just the BMW region but the south-east as \ well. ramme for the arts and another 1 billion for The chapter on all-island co-operation is an sports facilities. This is an excellent plan that innovative feature of the plan. It builds on earlier should act as a foundation for the work of the initiatives, some of which the Leader was next Government and I am confident it will. involved with when she was Minister for Public Enterprise, such as the City of Derry Airport and Ms O’Rourke: I second Senator Mansergh’s the all-island energy policy. It is appropriate and motion. I will speak now because I may not get all sides of the House should defend it even if in if I do not — there are eager cubs on the other some of the money will be spent north of the side of the House. That is a nice word, cubs, in Border. It is one of the fruits of the peace process case they run to the radio about some word I said. and the knitting together of the island economy. I welcome this motion and the opportunity to Much of this will be achieved through the North- speak in favour of the national development plan. South bodies, where the tourism body has been So often we talk about decisions made on the already an outstanding success. spur of the moment or planned on the back of an The plan pays attention to environmental sus- envelope. This plan is well laid out and couched tainability, something that has been highlighted and it covers every area of life. It is a fine piece in various reports in recent times. We have made of work drafted by eminent civil servants but with progress in this area, such as the increase in a strong political flavour to it. That is what is so 1897 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1898 good about it, it is the best of the mix of political Ms O’Rourke: It was good that the Minister leadership and Civil Service attention to detail. abandoned the line because, if he had closed it, I congratulate the Minister for Finance, Deputy we would not now be able to restore it. An Cowen, because this plan is typical of his work. opportunity now beckons for the line, although it He goes to do a job and he does it excellently and needs upgrading and new signalling and Moate without any carry on. This is a plan of which we needs a new station and platform. I am glad we can all be proud and I hope Opposition and have the chance to put our best foot forward by Government both support it. If the unforeseen seeking a sizeable portion of the gateways inno- were to happen and the Government change, I vation fund. The fund is a creative and imaginat- have no doubt the Opposition’s criticisms would ive idea and I have no doubt the Minister for Fin- be replaced by a strong espousal of the NDP. ance had a direct hand in its formulation. However, I will not continue in that regard What I am about to say is somewhat painful. It because I do not talk about events which will appears that some from the Opposition who were never happen. The Government will be re- on the project team want to cast doubts on the elected. It is in the spirit of having a plan that project and, instead of rolling up their sleeves, are Departments understand what they must do and saying it will never happen. They are asking why are compelled to take ownership of their policies. they were not handed the money but I can only I wish to speak about the gateways innovation imagine the howls of outrage from those who fund, in which regard it has been immensely help- seek properly designed projects if money were ful that we are dealing with a Minister from the simply handed out. They would ask where was midlands. Athlone, Tullamore and Mullingar, or the accountability or transparency. ATM, which is an unfortunate acronym, are gate- way link towns. The spatial strategy has been Mr. J. Phelan: There would be more account- criticised as not being implemented but the NDP ability if the money were handed out. However, provides for the establishment of a gateways nobody suggested that. innovation fund which will operate on the basis of a lead local authority, which will be Westmeath Ms O’Rourke: That is what they are doing. County Council in the ATM area. Submissions Members of the Opposition wish the project does will be invited from projects within the area not happen so that they will have a stick with which, for example, persuade people to change which to beat me. from private to public transport. A very good rail- way project team has been established, of which Mr. B. Hayes: It has not happened; that is the I am a member, to bid for part of the \300 million problem. made available over the first two years of the fund. We met the Minister for Transport, Deputy Ms O’Rourke: The Senator does not live in Cullen, last week and the Minister for Finance, Athlone. Deputy Cowen, a few weeks ago. Next week, we will meet the Minister for the Environment, Heri- Mr. J. Phelan: It is a Hans Christian tage and Local Government, Deputy Roche, Andersen story. under whose aegis a committee will be estab- lished to manage the fund. Ms O’Rourke: Even when Ministers seek pro- The fund is tailor-made for the restoration of jects from them, they say it is not in the writing. the Athlone to Mullingar railway. In case any That is how they speak and I wish the newspapers doubt should arise, this line was abandoned in would report them in that manner. Fortunately, I mid-1986 by a certain former Minister for Trans- do not speak like that. I appeal to those in the port. As he has since passed away, I do not wish Opposition who wish to receive money without to pass comment on him other than to say he was working, that is, by developing a well-docu- also critical of Knock Airport. The then mented plan, which we have done, to put their Taoiseach, Mr. Garret FitzGerald, produced a best foot forward and engage with the different document entitled backwards into reality — I Ministers. We have already started on that odys- apologise — Building on Reality. sey which will be a wonderful one. If the Leas-Chathaoirleach is good, I may invite Mr. B. Hayes: Mr. Haughey implemented that him to join me on the restored Athlone to report when he returned to Government, after a Mullingar railway line. He would make a nice series of U-turns. companion on such a journey.

Ms O’Rourke: During his term in office, the An Leas-Chathaoirleach: It would be on my Minister in question abandoned a number of rail- route home. way lines, one of which was the Athlone to Mullingar line. I have researched the matter, so I Ms O’Rourke: I will meet him in Moate, wav- know what I am talking about. ing a flag to herald his visit. I am happy that the railway line is in the NDP and am appreciative of Mr. B. Hayes: Todd Andrews did something the work done on it by the Minister for Finance. similar to the Harcourt Street line. This is positive news, so begone with the 1899 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1900

[Ms O’Rourke.] than 50% of the work that should have been com- begrudgers. The NDP is a well-thought plan pleted has been carried out. which awaits implementation by Ministers. Regional development probably represents the biggest under spend in the last national develop- Mr. J. Phelan: I move amendment No. 1: ment plan. Different speakers have committed To delete all words after “Seanad E´ ireann” themselves to regional development. Senator and substitute the following: Mansergh mentioned decentralisation as part of regional development. It is ironic that he should — “notes the failure to deliver many of the mention a plan that three years ago the Govern- promises outlined in the National ment proposed would be completed by now with Development Plan 2000-2006; 10,000 people decentralised. Only 700 people — notes the failure to deliver balanced have been decentralised at a time when it was regional development throughout the supposed to have been finished. Some 700 others country; who were already working outside Dublin are covered by the plan, but they cannot be included. — abhors the scandalous waste of public It is understandable for Opposition spokes- money in many public infrastructure persons to raise the decentralisation programme, projects; and on which the Government parties have failed — calls on the Government to put in place even more miserably than they have on most of a comprehensive system of checks and the other matters they have failed to deliver in balances to ensure project delivery, course of their ten years in office. reduce waste and promote value for I spoke about regional development. Under the money in the construction of public last national development plan the Government infrastructure projects.” promised to spend more than \4 billion in the BMW region. However, only 60% of the allo- I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy cated funding, \2.4 billion, was spent under the Haughey, to the House and congratulate him on last national development plan. The Government his appointment. I hope he will be returned to the promised to spend \656 million on e-commerce Opposition benches after the next general elec- and communications measures in the last national tion but nonetheless wish him well during his development plan. However, only 15% of what it brief tenure as Minister of State. announced, \100 million, was spent. The Govern- I am surprised by the comments made by cer- ment promised to spend \446 million on the child tain Members on the Government side. I am care programme. By the end of 2005 it had only especially perplexed that Senator Mansergh does \ not see the need for the Opposition to table an spent 273 million, 60% of what it committed in amendment. If ever a Government plan deserved the last national development plan. scrutiny, surely it is the spending of \184 billion In the last national development plan the \ proposed in the NDP. This Opposition amend- Government promised to spend 1.2 billion on \ ment, which I am delighted to move, merely sets back to education initiatives and only spent 600 out the areas which deserve closest scrutiny. million, half of what was announced. In the area I wonder about Senator Mansergh’s comments of health, the Government promised to spend \ on the Opposition’s commitment to imple- 1.3 billion on non-acute continuing care, but has \ menting the NDP. Given that the Government spent only 844 million, 65% of what should have failed to implement the previous plan, I question been delivered. The Government only spent 35% its commitment in implementing this one. The of the resources allocated in the last national Leader was correct in saying that the NDP is development plan to water management and good news, just as most fairy tales involve good rehabilitation initiative including water con- news. However, I have a strange fear that, like servation programme. The rural water investment most fairy tales, parts of this plan will not come scheme was also under-funded with only 54% of true. the original target realised. The mismatch between the headline figure Ms O’Rourke: The Senator fears the plan will announced by the Government and what was be implemented. delivered is stark and raises legitimate questions. In following the last national development plan it Mr. J. Phelan: A body of opinion among econ- is reasonable to suggest that the systems are not omic analysts cautions that the NDP may give rise in place to see the plan implemented as the to inflationary problems. It is legitimate for Government has proposed. Today’s national Opposition Members and the public to question newspapers reported that the Government had the Government’s ability to deliver. Senator spent more than \360,000 on the launch of the Mansergh and others will be familiar with the development plan. This included the cost of many areas of the last plan which were not deliv- media presentations, publications and the print- ered, such as the inter-urban routes which were ing of the document itself. That is a staggering originally estimated to cost \5.6 billion but are amount and it could have been done for consider- now projected at \16 billion, even though less ably less. 1901 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1902

The biggest failure in the last national develop- welcomed on all sides of the House, such is his ment plan was in the area of broadband delivery. standing in both Houses. The Minister responding at the end of the debate I am glad Senator Mansergh referred to the air- should outline what new scheme the Government port at Knock. One of the most positive proposes to put in place now that the Department announcements in recent weeks regarding Knock of Communications, Marine and Natural and the connection between the west and the Resources has officially dropped the rural broad- north-west was the announcement of new transat- band scheme that was in place. While I accept lantic flights from New York to Knock, which it was not delivering, we now have no scheme. were brought about directly as a result of the pol- Countless small businesses, mainly in rural itical intervention by Deputy Perry of Fine Gael. Ireland, will face serious difficulties in the next While his name has not been mentioned, I wish few years if no scheme is initiated in the area of to put it on the record. Mayor Bloomberg came broadband. to Sligo last summer for the commemoration of It is clear that there is a crisis of confidence. an historical event. Out of that visit came the Despite the huge investment of taxpayers’ fruitful discussions that led to the announcement money, improvements in infrastructure have been made ten days ago. I welcome that my Fine Gael too slow, too limited and too costly. The failure colleague from Sligo was the catalyst upon which to deliver is the legacy of a decade of project mis- the transatlantic flights between the north west management and waste, and a decade of missed and New York were brought about. opportunity. It is the legacy of Government fail- ures and policy inconsistencies in a number of Dr. Mansergh: It was a good thing the airport areas. The Taoiseach has shown a lack of stra- was already there. tegic vision and clear prioritisation. There has been a lack of ministerial accountability for pro- Mr. B. Hayes: It was rather churlish of Senator ject performance. There has been a lack of Mansergh not to refer to the Deputy in passing. reform in the construction sector to increase com- As Senator John Paul Phelan has said, much of petition and capacity. There has been a diversion the new national development plan is very posi- of scarce construction resources from public tive in its general scheme of projections for what infrastructure projects into tax-driven boom pro- it plans to achieve in the next seven years in the jects. There has been inadequate investment in areas of regional development, infrastructure and project management skills in the public sector. particularly in the development of public trans- There has been an absence of sophisticated cost- port, etc. However, most commentators now benefit analyses to help project prioritisation. accept that the Government is trying to sell this There have been last minute politically driven plan on the basis that its Ministers are competent changes in project design and inadequate pro- managers, whereas, as Senator John Paul Phelan vision of planning staff for local authorities and rightly said, its whole record is one of utter An Bord Pleana´la leading to significant delays for incompetence. Some 60% of the previous plan major projects. Yesterday, An Bord Pleana´la was never implemented and Ministers were postponed a number of decisions across the coun- responsible for such disasters as the key health try for two months because of lack of staff in its project PPARS on which millions of euro were operations. There is poor co-ordination between wasted and the e-voting debacle on which \60 different State bodies in major infrastructure pro- million was wasted. No one takes responsibility jects. We have a defective compulsory purchase for these projects. order system, which delayed major infrastructure The majority of the people looked at the great projects. We have ineffective community consul- press launch of the plan and shrugged it off as of tation on many of those major infrastructure pro- no great consequence. The people selling them- jects in recent years. selves as the people to implement the plan have The message Fianna Fa´il and the Progressive a record of disastrous mismanagement and Democrats have sent to the public in the past ten incompetence in areas such as broadband, years is clear. They are saying to the taxpayers: delivering interurban routes on budget and the “This may be your money, but we have it now gross under-projection of amounts required for and we will spend it as we want to spend it. We projects in Dublin, for instance the Dublin Port will continue to waste it over the lifetime of the Tunnel, which came in \240 million over budget, next national development plan”. I have news for and Luas. Fianna Fa´il and the Progressive Democrats. After The problem for the Government is that it is the general election they will not get the oppor- regarded as utterly incompetent by its own sup- tunity to continue to waste and mismanage public porters and Deputies. resources in the next five years. Dr. Mansergh: Senator Brian Hayes is Mr. B. Hayes: I second the amendment to the deluding himself. motion. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Haughey, on his second visit to the House. When Mr. B. Hayes: Senator Mansergh should speak the Government announced he was to become a to some of his backbench colleagues because they Minister of State, his appointment was universally tell me this constantly. 1903 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1904

Dr. Mansergh: I speak to the people. because of the people in charge whose track record is visible to all. The people realise that it Mr. B. Hayes: The Government is in this is time to hand over to new people with new dilemma having fired its two magic bullets ambitions for this country and a new ability to between the national development plan and the deliver political responsibility and accountability. budget because it is utterly incompetent at That is the key test of the plan, one on which developing and implementing a plan that it pro- sadly this Administration has failed miserably in duced. That is why people are moving away from the past ten years. it. The Government lacks a sense of responsi- bility. The people who waste money are pro- Ms White: I welcome the Minister of State at moted in key Departments. That would not hap- the Department of Education and Science, pen in the private sector. If any large plc failed to Deputy Haughey, on his second appearance in deliver on its seven or five year plan people the House. As he can see from the compliments would take responsibility for that. That is the key he has received he has support across the House. difference between this side of the House and the I wish to focus on the all-island co-operation proposals in our published documents in this area section of the National Development Plan 2007- as against the Government record over the past 2013. Since the Good Friday Agreement of April ten years. 1998, society in Northern Ireland has been trans- formed, as have North-South co-operation and Dr. Mansergh: I would not idealise the brilli- east-west relations. This is thanks in many ance of the private sector as Senator Brian respects to the exemplary negotiation skills of the Hayes does. Taoiseach. It is hard to believe the transformation that has taken place on the island. The national Mr. B. Hayes: I know this hurts Senator development plan sets out in detail a range of Mansergh. A golden opportunity for regional and existing and planned North-South projects national planning was missed in spatial develop- already agreed with the Northern Ireland ment and decentralisation over the past ten years. Administration and being implemented. It also If we are going to create new hubs of economic sets out for the first time proposals for Irish activity away from the east coast, thereby creating Government investment in North-South projects better regional development, it is essential that and initiatives for mutual benefit. The Govern- the Government must select a few areas and con- ment wishes to agree and implement these with centrate development there to increase capacity the British Government and a restored Northern and drive economic growth. The Government Ireland Executive in the period 2007-13. These however, like a super county council, cannot projects and initiatives will benefit the entire decide where it wants to put those economic island of Ireland. centres. The former Minister for Finance, Mr. Partition has been the single greatest impedi- McCreevy, said that if he could not develop this ment to balanced economic development across by December 2006 he did not deserve to be re- the island of Ireland. This has left communities elected. The Government has implemented 10% along the Border on both sides and in the northw- of its promise, another gross incompetence. est severely disadvantaged socially and economi- cally. The North’s transport infrastructure, once Dr. Mansergh: He did not quite say that. regarded as being superior to that of the Republic, has not kept pace in recent years. Mr. B. Hayes: Many economic consultants in There is no direct motorway between Belfast and Dublin have said that this plan is based on the Derry, the two main cities in the Six Counties, tax receipts from the property market continuing and the railway system is seriously under- into the future. That will not happen. No one in resourced. the Department of Finance and no serious econ- Due to the existence of the Border infrastruc- omic consultancy believes that will continue. The ture projects have in the past been built in both large tax returns, many of which are driven by the the North and the South without regard to the property and construction sector, will not last. It impact in the other jurisdiction or any efficiencies seems inevitable that if we are serious about this that could be gained from working together. In plan we must tackle the tax issue at some stage this plan there will be economies of scale and co- in the course of the next seven years, no matter operation on cross-Border all-island infrastruc- who is in Government. ture development. The North is only now getting The Government is not squaring up to this. The its act together to build a motorway to meet up plan is predicated on the rate of growth over the with the Republic’s M1 from Dublin to the next seven year period staying the same as it is Border. Making decisions on an all-island basis now. If people are honest they will say that the would in many cases be better for the welfare and tax returns will not remain as buoyant as they are health of all the people on the island. now because of our dependence on property and In a dramatic statement in November 2005, construction. There must also be a financial com- Peter Hain, Secretary of State for the North said mitment to delivering this over the next seven “the economy in the North is not sustainable in years. The plan is flawed not in its aspirations but the long term” and that in future decades, “it is 1905 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1906 going to be increasingly difficult to look at the our meeting with the SDLP last week, I inquired economy of Northern Ireland and the South about how strongly it was pressing in respect of a except as a sort of island of Ireland economy”. At reduction in the rate of corporation tax. One of the end of last October, the Minister for Foreign those present asked me if I would accompany Affairs, Deputy Dermot Ahern, and the Sec- them to Downing Street on their next visit to retary of State for the North, Peter Hain, pub- exert pressure on Gordon Brown. I stated that I lished a comprehensive study on the development would be delighted to do so. The Government, of an all-Ireland economy. In their joint introduc- led by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Fin- tion to the study, the Ministers said: “It makes ance, is not afraid of competition. We are willing clear the strong economic imperative driving to share and to include the North. We are not north-south co-operation ... To be globally com- defensive and do not believe that no one else petitive we must exploit the opportunities of all should benefit from a corporation tax rate of island co-operation”. 12.5%. We would be delighted to promote These conclusions by the Minister, Deputy Ireland on an all-island basis. Dermot Ahern, and Peter Hain are a far cry from the previous back-to-back approach to economic Dr. Henry: I wish to share time with Senator and social development on this island. Both parts Quinn. of Ireland are on the cusp of a transition to genuine economic and social co-operation and An Leas-Chathaoirleach: Is that agreed? cohesion which could transform the prospects for Agreed. peace and prosperity on this island. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Cowen, in Dr. Henry: I welcome the Minister of State, presenting the Government’s pre-budget 2007 Deputy Haughey. I have little to say about the spending plans, said: national development plan. I looked through it and I reckon it involves a great deal of amalgama- We have an economy that is working and a tion of previous plans. I took home with me the country that is at work. From being one of the other night the Hanly report, the national spatial developed world’s worst economies twenty strategy and the decentralisation directives and years ago, we now have a model of excellence read them to see if I could try to marry them up and a performance which is the envy of much from a geographical point of view. It was utterly of the developed world. impossible to do so. At a time of unprecedented economic growth in the South, the North has deepened its public sec- Mr. J. Phelan: They are all fairytales. tor dependency and reliance on the British Treas- ury. The public sector in the North is also the Dr. Henry: Perhaps Members will recall that largest employer of university graduates, when they were children, they were frequently preventing the private sector from gaining their given puzzles to try to encourage them to figure skills. out how one would travel from A to B, etc. The No matter what co-operation goes ahead my position was similar when I read the reports. It mantra remains that there must be a change in was unbelievable. the corporation tax in the North. The current rate I feel very bitter about this matter because I of 30% in that jurisdiction seriously inhibits the was one of the few people in this entire nation ability to attract foreign investment. It is the who supported the Hanly plan. Under the decen- responsibility of Gordon Brown to be inspired tralisation programme, places which could have and to make a decision. He must not be inward- been important in the context of Hanly were looking and protective towards the union. The treated differently. I do not know what happened Chancellor must see that, for the benefit of the to the gateways, spokes and hubs but they have entire island, there should be a common rate of re-emerged in the new national development corporation tax in order that potential investors plan. Something must be done to encourage who are considering investing here will not see joined-up thinking in respect of the geographical the island in terms of North and South but as a aspect. I do not know if such thinking exists in total area in which they might invest. Sir George respect of the economic aspect because I am not Quigley, who sponsored my nomination to the an expert in that regard. From a geographical Irish Exporters Association, is the main driver for point of view, I am of the opinion that if one is change in this area among business people in the determined to develop a hospital in an area, one North. The SDLP is also pressing for change and would make it an important part of the infrastruc- has suggested a corporation tax rate of 12.5%. ture therein. The dispute that appears to be Sinn Fe´in advocates a rate of 17%. There is a ongoing between Mullingar, Tullamore and Port- consensus that change must take place. laoise is unbelievable, especially when one con- The national development plan is concerned siders that Athlone is a hub. The entire matter with all-island co-operation. As a result of the must be given careful consideration from a geo- North’s 30% corporation tax, Goodbody Stock- graphical point of view. brokers estimates that it has lost 20 times the Decentralisation is a good ideal but I wish it potential investment it could have attracted. At had taken place over a period of 40 years. I feel 1907 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1908

[Dr. Henry.] starting point was an enormous pot of money and very sorry for all those senior civil servants whose the challenge of how to allocate it. When one has jobs have been moved down the country. One of such as a vast sum to spend and so many projects these individuals informed me last evening that clamouring for a share, one is likely to end up he actually liked his job and is not quite sure what pleasing many people. It is difficult to escape the he is going to be doing from now on. There are suspicion that is the real point of the operation. senior civil servants who are in no position to Another thing that is likely to happen, which move, who are in jobs they like and who now, leads me to my third surprise, is that one obtains through no fault of their own, will be obliged to very bad value for money. In view of our poor spend the latter part of their careers in employ- track record with previous national development ments for which they may not be suitable. I regret plans, I would have expected that on this occasion that because I have a great deal of respect for our a serious attempt would have been made to apply Civil Service. a sound cost benefit analysis to all the projects within the plan and that there would be a rigor- Mr. Quinn: I thank Senator Henry for sharing ous system of cost management to ensure a time. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy reasonable level of value would be delivered. As Haughey, of whom we expect big things. We far as I can see, this has not happened. By all know that he will take action in respect of every- accounts, it appears, that exactly the same kind thing said during this debate. of sloppy financial management that served us so I wish to focus on what I regard as the four big badly in the past will again be employed on this surprises in the new national development plan. occasion. The first of these is that the plan, which is far The fourth surprise, which is the most disap- and away the largest ever contemplated in our pointing of all, revolves around the sheer lack of nation’s history, was developed without even the imagination that characterises the plan from start slightest pretence at public consultation. I recall to finish. Despite all its expensive glitziness, this a lovely seanfhocail that I learned in school, plan is really just more of the same. One is often namely, “E´ ist le fuaim na habhann agus gheob- minded to look for something different with plans haidh tu´ brada´n; listen to the sound of the river of this nature. As far as this one goes, however, and you will catch a salmon.” One of the things it appears that an approach has been adopted to the Government is obliged to do is listen to what the effect that because we are doing well, we is happening in the world to ensure the fishing is should continue to do what we did in the past. good. I get the impression that it has not done so. I was impressed by what Senator Brian Hayes The new national development plan was con- said about the tax issue. The plan appears to ceived — without public consultation — within assume that tax will continue to come in, despite the secret corridors of Government and then the fact that it is very much dependent on the brought to the attention of an unsuspecting public property and construction sector. at a glitzy launch. I read in the newspaper that This plan is a programme for throwing even the launch in question cost the taxpayer \340,000. more money in the same direction as previously. However, I stand open to correction in this It contains no new ideas. The Minister of State, regard. Deputy Haughey, is leaving the Chamber. I thank What does it say about the state of democracy him for what I gather was his second visit to the in Ireland that this phenomenally important pro- House. I suggest to the Minister that there are no ject, which will have an impact on the future of new ideas in this plan or major goals to grasp the every man, woman and child, was not deemed imagination. There is no underlying vision to this worthy of any input whatever from the people very expensive plan. This is a plan devised by who will be affected by it in the years ahead? Is people who, regrettably, have no clear idea of the message being put across one which clearly where they are going and even less idea of what states that the Government knows best and does is needed to bring them where they want to go. not need to consult the people about its future? Those are my four surprises and they add up That first surprise leads to the second, namely, to what I regard as a lost opportunity. Unfortu- that this is clearly a plan that is driven by the nately, it will be many years before the full extent need to spend enormous sums of money rather of the opportunities we have lost will become than to achieve specific, clearly defined objec- clear to us. When this plan fails to meet our needs tives. My experience of economics and business in the years ahead — I hope I am wrong — we is that one sets out one’s objectives and then will only have ourselves to blame for the lack of decides how best to achieve them. If the people foresight that allowed this poor excuse for a had been consulted, they would have been asked national development plan to see the light of day. about the action they wanted the Government to There are four unpleasant surprises in the plan take and about their priorities in respect of mak- that I did not anticipate. We should have listened ing Ireland a better place in which to live and for to what is happening on the ground and identified securing the country’s economic future. Clearly the objective we wanted to achieve. Instead, we these questions did not drive the formulation of told ourselves we had a great deal of money and this plan. Instead of starting out from a list of wondered about the way we would spend it. Had priorities and agreed national objectives, the a cost benefit analysis been done on each of 1909 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1910 those, and perhaps the Minister will tell us there an integrated one. It is a transport plan that was and will explain that to us, we would know stands the test of scrutiny. For example, we are that our objective is likely to be achieved with rolling out a national road network which will be value for money. achieved by 2010. There are 22 major projects under contract currently which are coming in on Minister for Finance (Mr. Cowen): I thank the time and on budget and which are withstanding Senators for their contributions thus far to this all the tests and appraisals people want. debate on the national development plan. I am The Senator said this plan has no vision. This sorry if Senator Quinn believes this was simply a plan is about five basic points. It is about the fact connection exercise of spending programmes to that we must invest in human capital through a be put together willy-nilly. In fact, a long consul- strategy for technology, innovation and science tation process has been ongoing for the past 12 that we have put in place and that has been months, not only with the social partners but with agreed at Cabinet level and between myself and the regional authorities, local authority members the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employ- and many business groups in the context of the ment and approved by Cabinet. It is an unpre- Estimates process and the social partnership cedented investment in third and fourth level programme. Many representations, ideas and education. It has the backing of the science com- priorities were put forward by various interest munity. It refers to doubling PhDs and making groups which the Government had to pull sure we have the knowledge based industry that together. will be required for us to compete in an increas- People talk about the size of the plan at \184 ingly difficult and competitive international envir- billion but it is a much broader and comprehen- onment for jobs and investment in the future. sive plan in terms of setting out social inclusion We need to build an economic infrastructure. objectives as well as simply economic We need a transport system. We also need to pro- 6 o’clock or capital investment programmes. It ceed with the ambitious targets in the NESC is right that we should do so since the report on housing, which we are putting forward. vision the Senator talked about that we are trying In the last plan we had \9 billion for housing. to bring about is set out in the Towards 2016 Over \22 billion will go into housing, not because document, with all the resonance that provides. It I want to spend money but because we need the is an opportunity, over the next ten years, for us houses. We must build 60,000 affordable houses to make good some of the historic infrastructural and 40,000 social houses. That is what NESC said deficits that are with us because we did not have we have to do based on the demographics as it the resources in the past to make those sort of saw them. Given the successful policies we are investments. We can build on the future and on implementing, the success of which appear to be many of the important improvements we now see taken for granted, and the resources that are now in the implementing agencies, whether it is the available to Government, we can proceed with National Roads Authority, the Railway Procure- that ambitious housing programme in full, quite ment Agency or the proposed Dublin Transport apart from the expanded capacity of the construc- Authority. tion industry, which is now providing 80,000 hous- The Senator talked about a vision but there is ing units per year. Ten years ago it could only a quadrupling of investment in public transport. provide 35,000. When this Government came into office it took I hear many people on the other side of the over from an Administration whose political col- House talking about the problems with housing. our was such that one would expect some com- If some of their local authority members got their mitment to public transport but the investment in act together at local authority level—— the previous year was nil. We are now quad- rupling the level of investment in this plan com- Ms White: Hear, hear. pared to the 2000 to 2006 plan. That vision will provide a modern transport infrastructure not Mr. Cowen: ——and used the same rhetoric only for this city but throughout the country. they are using in this House and elsewhere to talk Transport 21 has been assessed through the about building some of these houses and facilitat- DTO. The CIE strategic rail network was inde- ing local authorities to build houses on the basis pendently assessed. The idea put forward by that the resources are now available, that would some opinion formers in the private sector that be a far more positive contribution towards deal- there has been no analysis or appraisal or assess- ing with housing problems of many people than ment of Transport 21 is nonsense. Under the is the case currently. I had to listen in the other capital appraisal guidelines, any projects over \30 House to people talking in a derogative manner million require cost benefit analysis and they will about builders. Who builds houses? I thought be dealt with in that way. Individual projects over builders built houses. Are we supposed to deni- a certain figure must get individual Cabinet grate the builders and still have the houses built? approval but when a ten year investment prog- I do not know what they are talking about and I ramme is set out, a cost benefit analysis is not do not believe they know themselves. That sort done on each individual project. That is done of politics of envy and nonsense does not do any according as the programme is rolled out but it is service. If that is the vision the Opposition wants 1911 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1912

[Mr. Cowen.] menting the overall national spatial strategy and to bring forward, we have a vision that far ensuring the best return on the investment. The expands our horizons than what it has to offer. gateways are in place because we want to effect People are talking about the vision. This year regional development. To do so, critical mass alone we are spending \56 billion in Exchequer must be created in the regions. The national spa- funded services. If that is multiplied by seven and tial strategy sets out the physical development of do not put in an inflator, that is \390 million. We the country by 2020. are spending money. It is an investment. We must also ensure Ireland has an adaptable, Regarding the mid-term review of the ESRI on flexible and educated workforce for future the last plan, which is not as ambitious or as com- employment. IDA Ireland has many future indus- prehensive as this one, the return on that invest- trial projects in the pipeline because companies ment was 14%. When the finalised amounts come still want to invest in Ireland due to the quality through under the community support framework of the workforce. in mid-2008 and the full term review is done, I Investment will continue in our social infra- guarantee that the return will be of that nature structure. We will have a modern hospital system, also. How will we making sure that we have a schools that will meet the challenges of the 21st country that can continue to grow jobs and have century and broadband rolled out to every part a vision for full employment here unless we of the country. We have set out the way in which expand the productive capacity of the economy? these objectives can be achieved. The resources We either do it or we do not. are available to do so because of the economic Other people tell me we should only spend so policies we have implemented. much. If we want to avoid inflationary growth Those who claim the Government has no vision and ensure we can build more capacity and deal can go off to tell the L & H at Belfield. The with the commute problem that has occurred as Government’s vision is based on reality. There is a result of the social changes and the advance in a transformation taking place in this country that accelerated economic development we are now has never been seen before. The past ten years experiencing, we must deal with those problems are proof positive of it. The next ten years can but that will cost money. The fact is we are able also be proof positive of it if the right policies are to do them in a way that is within budget and that in place, public finances are sustained and people is robustly analysed and appraised. If we want to have the experience, will, wit and opportunity to appraise everything ad infinitum and let oppor- implement the programmes. tunities pass, we can do that but it will be dearer The idea that the national development plan is to do these projects next year. We must get on a conglomerate of spending demands could not with the job and do it. We have a ten year trans- be further from the truth. One does not simply port programme that is working. We will have a get one’s way with the Department of Finance. metro and additional Luas lines in this city. We If one did, we would not have a Department of will have an integrated transport network in this Finance. The Department is there to robustly sug- city. Dublin city will have an integrated transport gest what the priorities are. The building blocks network. All the naysayers can say what they like. have been established for social infrastructure, They have been saying it since we began the housing, schools and hospitals to ensure sus- public transport programme but the Government tainable growth and provide for a better quality will deliver it. The Government will also deliver of life. Towards 2016 confirms within the social a national motorway system and continued partnership model that economic progress and investment in the rail network. social progress are complimentary and mutually The framework of the national development dependent. It is not a question of growth for the plan is based on an average 4% to 4.5% annual sake of growth. There, however, seems to be economic growth in the next seven years, immi- some feeling that we do not need growth as we nently achievable according to every finance have reached some state of Nirvana. house and financial commentator. The last plan Environmental sustainability is another feature was based on an annual average economic growth of the national development plan. By introducing of 5.2%, placing the new target in a moderate these sectorial strategies that have been agreed range and within the bounds of possibility. An and priced, communities will become more inflation rate of 2% can be achieved under the environmentally sustainable. We have greatly harmonised index inflation because there will be improved our EU commitments under the waste- more balanced growth. water and increased recycling directives. The Balanced regional development is being Government’s record shows it has outstripped brought to the centre of our priorities. The 2002 any other of its predecessors in making environ- national spatial strategy will be implemented. mental sustainability an important economic Regional guidelines had to be put down to ensure component for sustainable growth. the regional planning guidelines were in line with This development plan should not be seen on the spatial strategy. County and local area plans, its own. It is part of a continuum with Towards plus the gateway concept, have been put forward. 2016. When we reach 2016 we can feel we have All gateway needs studies have been completed. built a State of which the founding fathers would This was necessary work as a precursor to imple- be proud. It is not a case that we will solve every 1913 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1914 problem. One absurdity of current political dis- imminently achievable. Parameters have been set course is that no progress has been made if a out with achievable targets only if we continue problem can be pointed out. Nothing could be with the successful polices we have had up to further from the truth. now. Many involved in political discourse would prefer to come up with another idea and have Mr. U. Burke: The Minister does accept there no continuity in policy. The policies, however, are are problems. working in meeting the basic needs of the people. One of the great challenges for social partner- Mr. Cowen: There are problems. Can the ship in the next several years is to ensure public Senator show me a country that does not have services can be provided with an improved public problems? service ethos. It is not about providing more resources for the public service. If that was the Mr. U. Burke: That is a change. solution to the problem, it would have been solved by now. This is not a question of a Mr. Cowen: Our problems have arisen from the Government resting on its laurels and sleepwalk- success of our economic model. ing through the next seven years, as the Oppo- sition suggests. There is an agenda of change Ms O’Rourke: We do not live in Pollyanna which will test the maturity and vibrancy of social Land. partnership. It will test the quality of leadership of not only the trade union and political system Mr. Cowen: In the past we had problems but that of the community. The ability to adapt because of failure and mediocrity and policies to new circumstances will determine the success that did not work. We have full employment of the national development plan and the quality when other generations did not. Is that a of life it seeks to achieve. This is the real chal- sufficient vision? Young people can get a job in lenge for Ireland. The Government and this party Ireland, commensurate to their skills and abili- has the best political capacity to ensure we main- ties. Is that a worthwhile vision? tain social cohesion, consistency in economic Through the social inclusion programme, total- policy and provide the resources for priorities to \ ling 50 billion, we will mainstream people with achieve the vision of Towards 2016 that was disabilities and bring the marginalised into full agreed by all social partners. society. I am proud of the record I have as a The national development plan is an ambitious former Minister for Health in bringing about this blueprint to transform Ireland and produce a expansion of opportunity which is fundamental to better quality of life for all. It will help us to sus- building a republic and giving equal citizenship to tain our economic success, secure the gains all. To those who want to talk about vision, I am already made and underpin our competitiveness willing to debate it with them all night. The into the future. These economic effects are criti- reality, however, is that we have the economic cal to our well-being. However, the plan will resources and sustainable growth patterns. Regional development will be effected through deliver even more by boosting the quality of our the national spatial strategy. We must ensure the environment, enhancing our national transport resources are in place to get the best possible network, investing in our schools and hospitals return on that investment. and building social inclusion. It recognises and I defend this development plan as having all acts on the potential of all-island co-operation. It the hallmarks of what is required for this State will encourage balanced and sustainable develop- over the next seven years. The demographics are ment in every region and will make our country such that we have the opportunity to meet these stronger and fairer in the interests of every infrastructural deficits in the next decade, which citizen. may not be possible in the future. Due to chang- The new plan is a fully costed, multi-annual ing demographics, social expenditure may blueprint for sustainable development. It builds increase in, say, care for the elderly which may on the progress made over recent years and sets leave less discretionary expenditure. For every out the strategy to tackle our infrastructural defi- person over 65 years, there are six in the work- cits, boost our enterprise and productive sector, force. We will, however, move to the European equip our people with the skills and qualifications norm where they cannot achieve economic appropriate for a modern dynamic economy, and growth of more than 2% and populations are spread the benefits of our recently attained pros- diminishing. perity more widely among our people. The global village we live in is bringing about This is the fourth national development plan real challenges of integration and immigration. since 1989. When the first plan was launched, Many migrant workers come to our shores Ireland was a different country. Unemployment because of the economic success we have was at 15%, the national debt was 107% of GNP achieved. Their contribution not only benefits and more than 200,000 people had emigrated in them and their families but improves our econ- net terms over the previous decade. By contrast, omy’s competitiveness. The plan assumes an the backdrop to the new plan is one of virtually increase in labour force growth of 2.5%, which is full employment, a debt-GNP ratio of 25% and a 1915 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1916

[Mr. Cowen.] Acting Chairman: Copies of the Minister’s population increase of almost 609,000 in the last script have been circulated to Members. decade. Mr. Cowen: I apologise if I have exceeded the Mr. Ryan: On a point of order, is it in order time allocated. I will conclude by saying that this for the Minister, with all due respect, to take up plan addresses Ireland’s current development as much as 35 minutes of our time? needs directly. It sets out a roadmap for the next phase of the country’s transformation and will Ms O’Rourke: The Minister began his contri- deliver a better quality of life for all. Its imple- bution at 6 p.m. mentation will help to secure our prosperity and make Ireland a better country, with stronger com- Mr. Ryan: He has already spoken for 20 munities throughout the island. We have the plan minutes and is only now beginning to read his and the resources. We must now get on with the script. work of delivery, thereby improving the quality of life for this and future generations. Mr. U. Burke: The first part of his contribution was a rallying call. Senators: Hear, hear. Acting Chairman (Dr. Henry): Under Standing Acting Chairman: I thank the Minister for Orders, the recommended time for the Minister’s being so gracious. As he can see, several contribution is 15 minutes. Members wish to speak. Mr. Cowen: I was simply responding to the debate. I understood that was the point of my Mr. McDowell: I meant no disrespect to the coming here. Minister or the unfortunate officials who had to write his speech. His spontaneous response is far Dr. Mansergh: It was an excellent speech. more helpful and informs discourse in a much better way than a delivery of his script would Mr. Cowen: Members complain when Ministers have done. come to the House and do not answer their ques- tions. When I try to do so, however, I am told to Mr. Ryan: Hear, hear. shut up. Members cannot hack it. Ms O’Rourke: Nobody is giving out to the Mr. Finucane: The Minister’s speech sounded Minister. like a Laois-Offaly rally. Acting Chairman: Senator McDowell should Ms O’Rourke: He is simply a great speaker. be allowed to speak without interruption.

Ms Ormonde: The Minister said it all. Mr. McDowell: I have no difficulty with most of the vision to which the Minister refers. On the Mr. Cowen: Now the Members want me to sit contrary, it is encouraging and inspiring to hear. down. Neither do I have any difficulty with what is in the plan in terms of vision, even though it is in Mr. McDowell: On the contrary, I believe the far drier language. The trouble is that we have Minister’s spontaneous response was fine; it read and heard it many times before. would be so much the better if we had more of that in the House. I am satisfied to take his script Mr. U. Burke: Hear, hear. as read. It simply summarised what is in the plan, which we all know about already. Mr. McDowell: Many of us remain to be con- vinced that the proposed developments will hap- Ms O’Rourke: The script is boring but the pen. The Minister tells us with certainty that a Minister is not. metro is included in the plan and will be con- Mr. Ryan: Absolutely. structed. The Leader told us the same in 2000, however, when she was Minister. She announced Acting Chairman: I remind the Minister that it solemnly in the Department of Transport seven under Standing Orders, he should take 15 years ago. minutes. Ms O’Rourke: There was no Department of Ms O’Rourke: The Minister’s speech was very Transport at that time. good. Mr. McDowell: Senator McDowell without Mr. Quinn: I appreciate the Minister’s wonder- interruption. ful ad libbed speech. We can read the remainder of the script if we wish to do so. Several Members Mr. U. Burke: The Leader is only defending would like to speak. herself. 1917 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1918

Mr. McDowell: That is merely a detail. I am Mr. McDowell: The problem with the plan is sure she meant it at the time. Seven years later, that it includes much that we have heard before. however, we have only just agreed the route. One example is the provisions in regard to the health service, an area with which the Minister is Ms O’Rourke: Did we not get the Luas? particularly familiar. I have read the full section Senator McDowell did not like that either. on health and find it deliberately dodges the two major issues in health, both of which require sig- Acting Chairman: I must ask the Leader to nificant additional infrastructural investment. allow Senator McDowell to continue without It dodges the issue of bed capacity by simply interruption. saying that two studies are being conducted, as there have been many before. This means we do Mr. Finucane: The Leader should not be so not know whether there will be additional invest- touchy. ment in acute bed capacity because we do not know whether the Government believes it is Ms O’Rourke: The Acting Chairman is correct, required. This is despite the fact that the health I ask her to excuse me. plan produced by the then Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, in 2001, indicated Mr. McDowell: The Minister tells us with cer- that 3,000 extra beds are needed. Six years later, tainty that there will be investment in rail however, the jury is still out on this issue. services. Again, the Leader, as Minister, told us The section on the health services also dodges there would be a feasibility plan for the Cork the issue of the Hanly report. Not only do we commuter route and that the Galway route would not know whether additional investment will be be examined. She also said that the Maynooth made, we also do not know how it will be struc- route would be expanded, which has only just tured, as the Acting Chairman observed during happened, and that the Kildare route would be her contribution. To muddy the waters even expanded, something we are still only talking further, as the Department of Finance likes to do, about. Likewise, we are still considering the pro- the plan states that any implications for current vision of rail services to Navan. The 2000 commit- expenditure must be within the scope of the ment to increase the number of carriages on multi-annual arrangements the Department of DART trains to eight has only just been fulfilled. Finance chooses to make. Moreover, any impli- cations it might have in terms of public sector numbers must also conform with Government Ms O’Rourke: Yes, it is great. policy in this regard. Reading the section on health, I do not see beyond some generalities Mr. McDowell: It is fine to tell us there will with which nobody could possibly disagree. It be investment in rail services but we have been does not add anything new to our knowledge and hearing that for ten years and little of it has gives no specific or meaningful commitments on been delivered. the issues that matter. Both the Minister and Senator Brian Hayes Dr. Mansergh: That is not true. referred to the fact that the entire plan is contin- gent on economic growth and tax revenues into Mr. McDowell: The Minister tells us with cer- the future. It is not reasonable to say that it tainty that we will have a national road network. should be so. Net debt is now down to 15% or A commitment was made in this respect in the 16% of GNP. We are in a position where we have last plan and those improvements should already effectively been putting money aside for years by be in place. The reality is that we have approxi- running down debt. This allows us to give a com- mately one third of a national motorway network. mitment that is not contingent, in the way the Perhaps we have learned much in the last ten plan seeks to make it, on tax revenues and econ- years but there was clearly an awful lot to be omic growth of 4% or 4.5% per annum in the learned. The Minister must, if he is reasonable, next six or seven years. We must be clear that this accept that it is not unreasonable for Opposition is more than merely a wish list that is contingent Members to say we are sceptical that he can do on the fiscal prudence which the Department of in the next six years what he did not in the last Finance will dictate from year to year. We must six years. be able to say with clarity that the resources are I will now return to my script. there and will be utilised. We are in a position to do so. Ms O’Rourke: It will be boring. I ask the Minister to respond to my next point if he is still here at 7 p.m. I understand he has Mr. McDowell: Yes, let me go to the boring said, as Dr. Michael Somers has done, that the part. way has been cleared for the national pension reserve fund to invest in infrastructural projects. Mr. U. Burke: There will be no more election We know, however, that there is virtually no such rallies like the one we just had from Tullamore investment. What is the cause of this blockage? Square. Is it a lack of political will or capacity? Have the 1919 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1920

[Mr. McDowell.] Mr. U. Burke: There are 30 or more children trustees of the fund decided they do not want to in classes. make such investment? Despite the political com- mitment in this regard, there is clearly no Ms Ormonde: Some 7,000 additional people delivery. with disability will be in employment by 2010 The Dublin gateway proposals are also decid- under social inclusion provisions. edly lacking in specifics. Most of the commit- I go to Europe with the Oireachtas Joint Com- ments were made long since, and we are also mittee on European Affairs and representatives committed to an entire series of studies. One of member states ask me for the formula for our study, for example, is considering whether the success. I tell them it is as a result of proper man- eastern bypass is appropriate, while another is agement of our resources and the economy. The examining the proposed orbital route. There is Opposition is jealous because it has nothing to also an interesting one-sentence commitment to tell. That is the reality. invest further in Dublin Port, “with due regard to locational issues into the future, taking into con- Labhra´sO´ Murchu´ : I join Senator McDowell sideration the all-Ireland dimension of Dublin in what I thought was a very generous tribute to Port”. I have a constituency interest in this issue. the Minister on the manner of his presentation. We must make a policy decision as to whether we It was a tour de force and it showed clearly the will continue to invest in Dublin Port where it is command he has of his brief.That should make currently located or invest in locations closer to everybody in this House happy. There is some- Dublin which would, in effect, primarily serve the thing particularly edifying when credit is given city. Dublin Port currently serves virtually the where it is due. For example, Senator Brian entire country. Hayes paid a compliment to Deputy Perry on the There are many good proposals in this plan, the role he played in securing the transatlantic agree- Towards 2016 agreement and the various other ment for Knock Airport. I was present in Sligo at plans being produced. There is a lack of belief, the invitation of Deputy Perry when the Mayor which is not confined to these benches, that it will of New York visited for the unveiling of the be delivered. I hope we have learned the lessons monument for the fighting 69th regiment. Credit over the past six years or more which will allow should always be given where it is due. Likewise, us to better deliver in the future but I am far from credit should be given to the Government on convinced that is the case. what it has achieved to date. What we are really talking about in the plan is Ms Ormonde: I welcome the Minister. It was a an acknowledgement and celebration of unpre- breath of fresh air to hear him speak. Once he cedented success for this country. I believe there spoke I was convinced it would be very easy to is a new national game where if something goes speak on this motion. I listened to all the negative wrong, no matter how infinitesimally small, things said by those opposite and I was getting people blame the Government but when some- depressed. I drove to Mullingar this week and I thing goes right, they look up and thank the stars have driven to Galway, Cork and Waterford and or the gods. We are creating a divided personality it is so easy to get from A to B. From where did for the nation. That is not to say anybody has all the money come to build these roads? This is our the answers. success story. As a result of our economy’s suc- Let us look at some of the issues covered in cess, I am very pleased we have \184 billion to the national development plan. Nothing gives me invest in the future and to create a vision for the greater satisfaction than to see the huge progress next ten years. in the peace process in the North. We are within I wish to focus on social infrastructure, about months of seeing a final conclusion to that pro- which the Minister did not speak. I refer to cess. Is it not wonderful that it finds an echo in investment in social and affordable housing, this vision which is before us, in other words, the primary care, sports infrastructure throughout the cross-Border co-operation? We have already seen country, including Lansdowne Road and it in Tourism Ireland and when we have travelled Abbotstown, the arts and in cultural facilities. I abroad with the island operating as one. It is true want to see that investment because I do not wish we are heading towards a united Ireland at least to see the decline of the social infrastructure when it comes to the economy. throughout the country. Much of this infrastruc- There is \50 billion to address social inclusion, ture is located in Dublin and in the major cities or social exclusion. That is very important. Some and it must be extended throughout the country. \1.13 billion is being given to cultural infrastruc- We must invest in rural development. We know ture, which is very important. It is a very carefully what is happening in rural areas. I welcome the thought out plan. I do not believe it is right to fact the Minister is putting so much money into suggest there was not consultation. How could this area. one come up with an infrastructure plan for cul- There are many disadvantaged schools ture if consultation had not taken place? How throughout the country and there are literacy could one come up with a plan for the Gaeltacht problems in primary schools in disadvantaged and the islands if we had not consulted in areas. advance? How could one come up with a plan for 1921 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1922 cross-Border projects if there had not been con- and the area around Portumna and towards sultation? Woodford. as well as the other district electoral It is vital we all embrace the potential we now divisions mentioned are all areas of declining have. I associate to words “prudence” and “vi- population. In respect of the CLA´ R programme, sion” with this plan. We are celebrating what we no new funds have been made available for areas have done but we must not rest on our laurels. of declining population in the west of Ireland, We would blame the Government if it rested on which is sad. the oars having brought the ship into a safe port I will conclude by citing a statistic that proves and opening up the opportunities we now have. the reality regarding gateways for development It is an occasion for celebration and I do not like and an equal spread of development throughout to see any viciousness in the debate because ulti- the State. As of 2006, only 76% of the expendi- mately, it is something for us all. ture forecast in the previous national develop- ment plan was spent in the Border, midlands and Mr. U. Burke: What we heard from the Mini- western region, in contrast to a figure of 108% in ster would be wonderful if we were at a pre-elec- the east and south east. Such statistics provide the tion final rally in the square in Tullamore. That is answer in respect of balanced regional develop- how entertaining it was. The plan has been called ment and any Minister who can state that this visionary but we must consider what “visionary” plan contains a vision is being revisionary rather means. It means something for the future but the than visionary. Such a Minister is going forward reality is that most of the money allocated to while looking backwards at the same time. The programmes in the plan has been announced pre- statistics show this is not a plan with vision. It viously or has been spent. There is very little is a pre-election restatement of expenditures that additional money for this vision. have already been made. The Minister said we have a better health The Minister should mention one statistic in service and education system as a result of the particular that is a reflection of his own constitu- previous plan. He seems to forget the increasing ency and should consider the consequences for number of people on waiting lists. People now Birr of the collapse of decentralisation. The Mini- realise the health service is worse despite all the ster shares this constituency with his Minister of money which has been put into it. This morning State, Deputy Parlon. A total of two people have I highlighted a case, over which the HSE and the decided to transfer to Birr and Members should Minister have stood, where someone with cancer consider the waste of money involved. No was denied a particular treatment recommended accountability was available in this instance. by his consultant because it was too expensive. The Minister referred to the Department of Mr. Finucane: The sad reality is that only three Health and Children as Angola and nothing has minutes are available to me when the Minister changed since he was Minister in that could prattle on for 30 minutes. Department. As for the launch of the national development While the Minister referred to education, I plan, I tend to be sceptical of such massive remind him that in 2002 his Government declared launches. In the past, although the privatisation that no child under nine years of age would be in of eircom involved a massive launch, we now face a class of more than 20 pupils by the time it left all kinds of telecommunications problems and office. Yesterday I provided this House with have no real competition within that industry. statistics to the effect that 25% of students are in Some years ago, Members witnessed the major classes of 30 pupils or more, 50% are in classes launch associated with the national spatial of between 20 and 29 pupils and 85% are in larger strategy. What has happened since? The national classes than was the case in 2002. While this is development plan is again discussing gateways the reality, the Minister has asserted he cannot be and hubs. Most recently, the national develop- challenged in this regard. This is what some ment plan was launched at a cost of \340,000. would consider to be the most wonderful delivery The Government is disappointed because the on the part of a Minister for Finance. plan does not appear to have gone done terribly The Minister referred to the IDA and the pro- well with the electorate. There has not been much vision of jobs and Members are grateful that talk about the national development plan because Galway city is thriving. Were the Minister else- people are sceptical and realise the plan incorpor- where in the west, he would know that in east ates much rehashing of promises made in the Galway, apart from those jobs that have been past. If one took a red biro to all the repeated created privately or through Enterprise Ireland, promises contained in the plan, it would contain not a single IDA-supported job has been created. much red ink. For example, the transport element In the Minister’s absence, I acknowledge his has been announced thrice by the Minister for partial extension of the pilot scheme for the Transport, Deputy Cullen. upper Shannon region to the middle Shannon Lest one might consider that it was only Oppo- region, which was of major importance. Regret- sition Members who are not being constructive in tably however, the plan in operation in the upper this regard, I will mention three newspaper refer- Shannon region was not fully extended. I exam- ences that appeared following its launch. An edi- ined the scheme before entering the Chamber torial referred to a reversion to the same old fan- 1923 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1924

[Mr. Finucane.] Mr. Ross: ——that has been taken up at a ciful promises, a headline called it a masterclass timely point in the electoral cycle. in brazen and dishonest public relations while An aspect of such plans with which I have diffi- another described it as being a road map to culties is that they are built on certain assump- heaven and higher taxes and referred to the cash tions, none of which can be taken for granted. I the Government plans to spend. It is worth bear- gather that this plan is based on the assumption ing in mind that following the plan’s publication, that Ireland will achieve an average growth rate the ESRI stated that attempting to implement its of 4.5% for the next eight years. While I do not contents on a massive scale would fuel inflation. know the source of this assumption, it has been Naturally, this was ignored blithely because, as all plucked out of the air. There is no reason what- Members are aware, an election approaches and ever for believing it except that it constitutes pure consequently this plan is important to the guesswork on the part of an economist in the Government. If it divvies out funds to all parts of Department of Finance. A real plan would not the State, particularly the marginal constituenc- simply assume a growth rate of 4.5%. It would ies, beneficial effects for the Government might proceed on the basis that in the event of the ensue. achievement of a particular growth rate, this, that The Minister spoke of full employment in or the other would be done. This plan reveals the Ireland. However, in County Limerick, the food Government’s intentions in the event of a growth processing industry has come to an end within 18 rate of 4.5%. months and a total of 450 jobs have been lost. However, what will happen if such growth rates Has any Minister visited those who lost their jobs are not achieved? What will happen if the before Christmas in Castlemahon? I have spoken Government suffers the same problems as those to the workers and they are facing difficulties in faced earlier this week by the auctioneers? The finding jobs. All is not well in the garden. While latter decided that because house prices were fall- I could continue in respect of many elements of ing, their revenue would drop and that conse- the plan and many concerns that pertain to my quently, they would raise commissions. This is an constituency, three minutes is insufficient and I outrageous thing for them to do. It is completely will conclude. non-competitive and I presume it will not work. However, were the Government to adopt the same attitude, it would increase, rather than Mr. Ross: First, I wish to take up a point made reduce, stamp duty. It would note the fall in by Senator O´ Murchu´ regarding this plan. He div- revenue from stamp duty because of the decline ided it in a quite interesting fashion, namely, into or stabilisation of the housing market and the the past and the present. He stated that this associated reduction in turnover and would debate was a recognition of the great success increase stamp duty to prevent a collapse in enjoyed by the Government in the past and I revenue. This plan assumes that everything, believe he referred to it as being a celebration of particularly in the construction industry, will con- the future. tinue in the same prosperous way it did in the While I agree with the first statement I do not past and that turnover will remain stable or agree with the second. Although they regard it as increase. I do not know whether this is true and being their duty, it is fatuous for Members of the neither does anybody else. Absolutely no pro- Opposition to tackle the Government on the vision is made for a situation where we are not as grounds of past mismanagement of the economy. well-off as we might be, only an assumption of a When they refer to the waste of money or value flourishing economy. I hope it is true. However, for money, they are clutching at straws that are it is fairyland to present a plan and state it is the perfectly legitimate, albeit reasonably minor in only possible situation which can arise. the overall context. Members should recognise I was also struck by the loudly lauded rhetoric that overall, the economy has been superbly man- produced by the Minister when he departed from aged by a succession of administrations that hap- his supplied script. I listened to it on the monitor. pen not to be of the Opposition view. Many Inde- As Ministers always do, he continuously gave cre- pendent Members have done so in the past. The dit for much of the economic boom to the social Government has done well, the fruits are there partners. for all to see and it did not make a mess of a situation in which there was a potential to so do. Dr. Mansergh: Quite right too. This should also be recognised. However, some might suggest this plan is Mr. Ross: Senator Mansergh is also a great dis- visionary. To me it is pretty fanciful and ciple of the social partners. resembles a spending programme—— Ms White: Corporation tax. Ms White: It is an investment plan. Mr. Ross: Senator White is correct. One of the Acting Chairman: Senator Ross, without inter- social partners, ICTU, wishes to increase it to ruption please. 20%. 1925 National Development Plan: 7 February 2007. Motion 1926

Dr. Mansergh: It did. restoration of the Athlone to Mullingar railway line which would help restore the interconnect- Mr. Ross: Even the Labour Party does not wish edness of the rail system. The plan is not only for to do this. It is the only split we can identify the future, it is being implemented as we speak. between it and its brethren. However, it is Senator John Paul Phelan tried to present the important. Why must we continuously refer to the Fine Gael amendment to the motion as merely strong men of old Ireland when the boom comes offering scrutiny. None of us object to scrutiny. from new Ireland? However, as the language it uses includes “failure It is significant the Minister referred to social after failure”, “abhors” and “scandal” it is partnership. By this he means trade unions nothing of the kind. It is straightforward because IBEC does not matter but must be denunciation. included to keep it happy. Why must he defer to In reply to Senator Quinn, the previous them when we all know a future boom will come national development plan received top marks from people who are not part of social partner- from the EU Commission and the ESRI. Since ship, namely, the multinationals? I would like to the late 1980s we spent our moneys well, unlike have seen more concentration on them in the other countries and the results show for it. national development plan. I am sick and tired of I share Senator Brian Hayes’s delight that we hearing about social inclusion, the social partners will have transatlantic connections from Knock. I and such verbiage which is old Ireland and the am happy to pay tribute to anyone who contrib- old economy. uted to it, particularly Deputy Perry. It is extra- Did anybody in the Department of Finance ordinary to have Mayor Bloomberg come to read the US Chamber of Commerce submission Ireland to attract Irish tourists to New York. It on the national development plan? I sometimes always used to be the other way round. wonder. It was full of dire warnings about the Much was stated on Government incompet- Irish economy. It warned that US and other ence and dreadful management. I have been on multinationals would not come here unless cer- the doorsteps and no one buys that line. No one tain priorities were observed. I do not see any of outside the country believes it. During the past those priorities in the Minister’s speech. 20 years we had outstanding economic success. I I see tokenism where the Minister mentioned do not state everything was perfect. However, it an amount of \20 billion to be invested in the is greatly admired and we are regarded as a promotion of enterprise, science and innovation. It is a wonderful figure. I do not know where it model. We have gone far beyond what we had came from. He also mentioned various matters and what those among us who are older expected which to me fall under the category of grants. It in the 1970s and 1980s. is giving money away to keep a few vested Sometimes the private sector is held up. The interests happy. private sector is not universally competent, brilli- He ought to have considered what will keep ant and a shining contrast in all respects to the the economy buzzing according to the wishes of public sector. the multinationals which are, whether we like it or not, fuelling the boom on which we depend. Ms O’Rourke: Exactly. They will provide the 4.5% growth he wrongly assumes will happen for the next six or seven Dr. Mansergh: In many respects little distingu- years. It might by 8%, 3% or 1%. It might be ishes the public and private sectors. They have negative. Nobody knows. It is a convenient figure different roles. for a pre-election programme. It sounds reason- I entirely agree with Senator White. Partition able and neither too big nor too small. One can has been an impediment to economic develop- spend a great deal of other people’s money when ment in the North. Significant improvements one assumes 4.5% growth. were made in Northern Ireland railway rolling I feel split on this motion and do not know stock which I welcome. The lack of a motorway what is the right way to vote. The Government from Belfast to Derry would not have happened has done a wonderful job on the economy which if the country was independent. should be recognised. However, I fear this prog- Decentralisation was mentioned by Senator ramme is not visionary. It is a purely aspirational Henry. It is an entirely voluntary process. Across spending programme and a fantasy. the water, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, announced a large Dr. Mansergh: I am sure the Acting Chairman 7 o’clock decentralisation programme and if will provide me with the stern unbending protec- people did not participate they lost tion she supplied to other speakers. their jobs. In the senior levels of the French public sector it is taken for granted that high-fly- Mr. Ross: Senator Mansergh does not need it. ers will serve in the prefectures throughout the country. I wish certain senior civil servants here Dr. Mansergh: I thank all those who contrib- would adopt a more positive attitude to the gains uted to the debate beginning with the Leader, and experience of being located in various parts Senator O’Rourke. I thoroughly approve of the of the country. 1927 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Order for Second Stage 1928

[Dr. Mansergh.] ners, a fact which has been internationally recog- The Minister for Finance spoke with tremen- nised. Some people of a neoliberal-conservative dous passion and conviction. persuasion disagree. For example, Samuel Brittan of the Financial Times came to Ireland and could Ms O’Rourke: Hear, hear. not understand social partnership as it did not fit into his vision of the world. Nor does it fit into Dr. Mansergh: If one had any doubt about a the vision of the world of the Sunday Indepen- vision, it was certainly—— dent, which would love policies which landed us in industrial conflict on a grand scale. It misses Ms White: A DVD should be made of it. We the fact that we did not have a Thatcherite indus- could sell it. trial relations policy.

Mr. J. Phelan: It was a vision alright. Ms White: The Sunday Independent is a dic- tatorship. Dr. Mansergh: In many ways, the plan is a Mr. Ross: It has 1 million readers per week. grand synthesis. It is good to pull these matters together. The prosperity of this country 50 years Dr. Mansergh: The answer to the question of ago was based on the first programme of econ- whether this is just a pre-election programme is omic expansion. Of course it was not a plan in that every bit of the plan will stand the test of the Stalinist sense of the word. It was a prog- time after the election. ramme such as others which have served us very well, as has the participation of the social part- Amendment put.

The Seanad divided: Ta´, 18; Nı´l, 24.

Ta´

Bradford, Paul. Henry, Mary. Burke, Paddy. McDowell, Derek. Burke, Ulick. Norris, David. O’Meara, Kathleen. Coghlan, Paul. O’Toole, Joe. Coonan, Noel. Phelan, John. Cummins, Maurice. Quinn, Feargal. Feighan, Frank. Ross, Shane. Finucane, Michael. Ryan, Brendan. Hayes, Brian.

Nı´l

Brennan, Michael. Mansergh, Martin. Cox, Margaret. Mooney, Paschal C. Dardis, John. Morrissey, Tom. Dooley, Timmy. Moylan, Pat. ´ Feeney, Geraldine. O Murchu´ , Labhra´s. O’Brien, Francis. Fitzgerald, Liam. O’Rourke, Mary. Glynn, Camillus. Ormonde, Ann. Hanafin, John. Phelan, Kieran. Kett, Tony. Scanlon, Eamon. Kitt, Michael P. Walsh, Jim. Leyden, Terry. White, Mary M. Lydon, Donal J.

Tellers: Ta´, Senators Cummins and McDowell; Nı´l, Senators Dardis and Moylan.

Amendment declared lost. that were so enacted but are not being repealed by this Act, by assigning short titles to certain Motion agreed to. statutes in order to facilitate their citation and by amending certain statutes in so far as they Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: Order for relate to short titles, to provide for prima facie Second Stage. evidence to be given of certain statutes, and to provide for related matters. Bill entitled an Act to promote the revision of statute law by repealing certain statutes that Ms O’Rourke: I move: “That Second Stage be were enacted before 6 December 1922 and taken today.” which have ceased to have effect or have become unnecessary, by identifying those stat- Question put and agreed to. utes primarily of a public and general nature 1929 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1930

Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: Second Stage. in Ireland between the Norman invasion in 1169 and the Act of Union in 1800 but because records Question proposed: “That the Bill be now read have been lost or destroyed over the years, and a Second Time.” particularly during the Civil War, it is impossible to say with absolute certainty what all of these Minister of State at the Department of the are. We also have laws which were not Acts of Taoiseach (Mr. T. Kitt): I welcome the oppor- Parliament in the modern sense, but are regarded tunity to launch this Bill in the Seanad. From pre- as being of statutory force. We have laws passed vious experience, I know that Members of the by various Parliaments of England and Great House have a keen interest in statute law reform Britain that also applied or were subsequently and I am sure that the Bill will have as interesting extended to Ireland, even though Ireland had its and thorough a debate as others of its kind. own Parliament from at least the 14th century The Bill is the greatest single statute law onwards. We have laws passed during the period revision measure undertaken in the State. It will of the former United Kingdom of Great Britain repeal 3,188 statutes, more statutes than have and Ireland, but it is not clear to what extent been repealed by any Act before or since the many of them applied to Ireland. foundation of the State. For the first time, clarity These and other factors leave us in a position will be provided to the Statute Book because the where it is at the moment impossible to say with Bill contains as its central feature the “white list” absolute certainty which laws from before the of all statutes that will continue in force after its foundation of the State actually apply in Ireland enactment. at the present time. That situation is clearly not The Bill has been devised within the better in line with our modern regulatory principles of regulation agenda, which the Taoiseach has pur- clarity and transparency. That is why we have sued vigorously in recent years, and represents moved from previous models of statute law further delivery of a key commitment in the revision — which tend to lists those statutes to be Government’s 2004 White Paper, Regulating repealed — to a new model. This new model is Better. At the core of the better regulation prog- one by which we can clarify exactly which laws ramme is the opinion that we need to address the continue to apply. flow of new legislation and the existing stock of The need for this clarity is the genesis for the legislation. The flow of new regulations is being current statute law revision process. For the past tackled through a regulatory impact analysis, two years, researchers based in the Attorney which was introduced across all Departments in General’s office have been analysing all of the June 2005. This approach requires Departments laws made by those authorities that made laws to consult more widely before regulating and to governing Ireland. These include the various Par- analyse in greater detail the likely impacts of Acts liaments of Ireland, England, Great Britain and and significant statutory instruments before the United Kingdom. This research has allowed presenting them to the Oireachtas. In this way, the compilation of a detailed database recording proposed legislation will benefit from being sub- the status of more than 26,000 public general stat- jected to comment by interested parties and will utes. Of course, many of these have been repe- be more comprehensively evaluated in terms of aled over the centuries, and many never applied potential downstream impacts. to Ireland in the first place, but they all had to be As we work to improve the quality of legis- assessed to find out which was which. More than lation moving on stream, we must tackle the sub- 4,500 statutes were found that were or still might stantial body of existing laws and regulations, be in force to some extent. which is where this Bill fits in. Statute law These 4,500 statutes then had to be assessed in revision means the process of removing the dead- greater detail to determine which of them had wood from the system, that is, legislation that is any modern relevance. This was a painstaking obsolete or has lost any modern purpose. Unlike process involving detailed research and the com- the process of statute law reform, the revision pilation of voluminous files. Initial decisions were process does not change the substantive nature of made as to which statutes might still have some the law itself. Its primary objective is to facilitate modern relevance and which ones were obsolete users of the law — the Judiciary, citizens, business and could therefore be repealed. — and to provide greater clarity regarding the Detailed rounds of consultation then followed, legislation that remains in force and pertinent. in which Government and outside bodies, as well All Government Departments, legislative draf- as members of the public, made representations. ters and we, as Members of these Houses, stand This consultation process was facilitated by publi- to gain from statute law revision processes. cation of the lists of statutes on the Attorney The issue of statute law revision is an important General’s website. Those lists were in effect the element of better regulation, particularly in the draft Schedules to this Bill and were open to Irish context. Our complex history has led to a public consultation for a period of several months situation whereby there is considerable uncer- on two occasions during 2006. The Department of tainty as to what legislation from prior to inde- the Taoiseach also published newspaper notices pendence even applies to this State. We have regarding the process and hard copies of the lists many laws passed by various parliaments sitting were made available by the Office of the 1931 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1932

[Mr. T. Kitt.] aled were very progressive and positive in their Attorney General. Hundreds of representations, day but they have long since served their purpose. on matters large and small, were received, replied As I have previously indicated, statute law to and recorded on the database. revision Bills are concerned with removing only The Bill before us today provides that statutes laws that have become entirely obsolete. There is predating 6 December 1922, where there has a complementary process, statute law reform, been any doubt, or where there is a credible argu- that involves changing the content of laws to ment that they may still be in force and may still modernise them. In respect of the Acts on the have continuing relevance, will be preserved in white list, that process of statute law reform is the white list set out in Schedule 1. This cautious already underway but will be effected by other approach is necessary to ensure this Bill does not legislation. inadvertently repeal a statutory provision, which As I have made clear, this Bill is not the end might still have legal effect. However, I empha- of the process of modernisation of our Statute sise that it is the Government’s policy that all of Book. It is an important step in that process and these retained Acts ultimately will be repealed. will provide a blueprint for future measures, not In the case of this white list it will be necessary just of statute law revision but also of substantive for substantive modern legislation to replace the statute law reform. Our ultimate objective is to provisions of these older laws; the old laws can provide the Irish people with a single legislative be then repealed. This is a distinct and separate code which is clear and accessible. This code will process from statute law revision, which is restric- contain only laws enacted by the democratically ted to repeal without replacement. elected Oireachtas, or under European law where The process of substantive replacement of the Ireland is a member of a community of equal old legislation, which we describe as the process nations. This Bill will be a major step along that of repeal and re-enactment or statute law reform, road towards clarity and democratic credibility in is already underway in a number of areas. For our Statute Book. example, almost 10% of the 1,348 statutes on the Members may wish to note that while the white list will be retained only for a very short present Bill deals only with public general Acts, time. This is because 133 of these statutes will be the Government intends to give attention to ana- repealed when the Land and Conveyancing Law lysing legislative measures going beyond that cat- Reform Bill 2006 is enacted. Senators will recall egory. It is intended, subject to progress with the the provisions of this Bill, which passed this present Bill, that proposals can be developed to House before Christmas and is now before the deal with local and personal Acts, private Acts, Da´il. and statutory rules and orders, which complete The Government’s overall programme combin- the picture of pre-independence statute law. An ing statute law revision under this Bill, together examination of post-independence law would also with a co-ordinated series of repeal and re-enact- fall to be addressed. Obviously, review of these ment measures, will ensure that within a short areas would necessitate the bringing to the House number of years all the legislation on our Statute of further legislative proposals in due course and Book that predates independence will have been I hope that I can look to the support of Members replaced with modern laws more appropriate to for our ongoing work in this regard. our modern democracy. I will now explain in detail the provisions of In addition to the clarity which will be con- the Bill. Section 1 provides a broad definition of ferred by this Bill when enacted, it also will have the word “statute” for the purposes of the Bill in a dramatic effect on the volume of material on order that it includes royal ordinances and similar the Statute Book. This Bill will repeal 3,188 stat- documents that are recognised as having the force utes, far more than any previous statute law and effect of an Act of Parliament. The reason revision measure. In fact, it is more than the for this broad definition is that the parliamentary entire number of public general Acts of the system was evolving for many centuries. In early Oireachtas enacted since Ireland achieved inde- times laws were enacted in ways somewhat differ- pendence in 1922. ent from the modern system and some of them It is important to emphasise that the decision would not conform to the definition of an Act of to list an Act in either Schedule 1 or Schedule 2 Parliament as we would understand it. However, has been based on purely legal reasoning. Where these laws were regarded under the constitutional an Act has or may have continuing legal effect, it systems of those times as being valid, and they is preserved by listing it in Schedule 1. Where it have continued to be recognised as having statu- is entirely obsolete or has ceased to have legal tory effect. It is appropriate, therefore to use the effect, it is repealed by omitting it from Schedule term “statute” to cover all these kinds of laws. 1 and it will instead appear in the list of repealed Section 2 is the central provision of the Bill. It Acts in Schedule 2. will provide a fundamental clarification and sim- The inclusion of an Act in one Schedule or plification of the Statute Book by drawing a line another should not be taken as being a positive at 6 December 1922 and repealing the majority or negative comment on the content of that Act. of the statutes passed prior to that date except for By repealing an Act we are not necessarily saying certain statutes that are to be specifically we disapprove of it, some of the Acts being repe- preserved. 1933 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1934

The first category of exceptions is provided for sary because of the difficulty, or in many cases by section 2(2)(a) which preserves in force the the impossibility, of producing original copies of statutes listed in Schedule 1. These are the 1,348 very old legislation. statutes which have or may have some modern Section 9 is a savings clause, which is standard relevance. These cannot be repealed until they for Bills of this type, with some additional pro- are first replaced by modern legislation. visions. The savings clause is designed to ensure The other main category of exceptions is local that no unintended consequences arise from the and personal and private statutes. These are stat- repeals effected by the Bill. One of the most utes enacted and-or published under different important effects of the savings clause is the pro- mechanisms from the normal. Local and personal vision that where we are now repealing an Act statutes were statutes which were public in the which had itself repealed an earlier Act, our sense that everyone was deemed to be on notice repeal through this Bill does not have the effect of their content but not general because they only of reviving the earlier Act. They will both be related to specific places or persons. They were repealed. published in separate series between 1797 and Section 10 provides for a Short Title and collec- 1922. Private statutes are statutes enacted under tive citation of the Short Titles Acts. Schedule 1 a different mechanism entirely than the normal lists the statutes that are being retained, while public general statutes and also relate to specific Schedule 2 lists the statutes that are not being persons and places. This mechanism is still in use retained and, in consequence, repealed. to this day and, as Senators will be aware, a The Bill is a major and historic step toward our private Act was enacted as recently as 2003, ultimate goal of completely modernising the Stat- namely the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland ute Book. It will allow us to give democratic legit- (Charters Amendment) Act 2003. imacy to the body of laws in our Statute Book by As more than 33,000 local, personal and private giving the approval of the Oireachtas to those statutes must be assessed, in addition to the laws which are to continue in force, while also 26,730 public and general statutes already cutting out more than 3,000 laws which serve no assessed, it was thought appropriate to preserve further purpose. The Bill provides, for the first these statutes as an entire category at this time. time in our history, complete clarity as to exactly They will be assessed at a future stage and will which laws apply in this State. I hope Senators be the subject of further statute law revision will enjoy an interesting and productive debate measures. on this subject and I commend the Bill to the Section 2(3) has the effect of repealing a part House. Finally, I express my appreciation of the of the Bill of Rights 1688. This is the only partial people involved in helping us through this repeal contained in the Bill. It arises because interesting process. some provisions of the Bill of Rights may be of continuing legal relevance and, therefore, the Mr. B. Hayes: I welcome the Minister of State, entire Bill cannot be repealed. However certain Deputy Tom Kitt, to the House and commend elements of the Bill of Rights are discriminatory, the officials from the Office of the Attorney such as between different religions, and these General who have dedicated themselves to this elements are being removed for obvious reasons. initiative over the past several years. The Minister Section 3 provides for the listing in Schedule 2 of State has previously come to this House on a of the statutes repealed by the Bill as a con- similar mission of obliterating non-applicable his- sequence of the fact that they have not been pre- toric legislation. I find myself in the extraordinary served by section 2 and Schedule 1. These com- and historic situation of repealing more legis- prise the 3,188 statutes which did apply or may lation than was ever enacted in post-indepen- have applied to Ireland, have not been fully repe- dence Ireland. We are taking on ourselves an aled and do not have any continuing relevance. astonishing and near dictatorial power. Section 4 assigns Short Titles to all public Many of the difficulties outlined by the Mini- general statutes that are in force, are not going to ster of State with regard to assessing which of the be repealed by this Bill and do not have Short laws passed prior to independence were relevant Titles. Sections 5 to 7 amend Short Titles con- to this process could have been avoided had the ferred by a number of earlier Acts. These are Four Courts not been burned in the first act of Short Titles which are unconventional or mislead- the Civil War. I will say no more except to note ing. The effect of this Bill will be to standardise that almost 90% of the records, including many the Short Titles of all surviving statutes to facili- ancient ones, were destroyed over a very short tate and simplify the making of references to period during that episode of our history. those Acts. I do not underestimate the task faced by the Section 8 provides for certain of the early stat- Minister of State and his researchers in the utes to be proved in court by being produced in Attorney General’s office with regard to certain official publications or in copies from such assessing the potential relevance of historic Acts publications as certified by a specified institution. and statutes to modern Ireland. Clearly, the At present, the only institution specified will be majority were part and parcel of our history, but the National Library, although the Taoiseach may it could be argued that a small number of the laws specify other institutions. This provision is neces- we accepted on independence, despite having 1935 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1936

[Mr. B. Hayes.] the Oireachtas, which leaves very little time to been at war with Britain, could have had a mar- debate secondary legislation — statutory instru- ginal effect on domestic legislation. The Minister ments and ministerial orders. The Supreme Court of State and his colleagues had, therefore, to rightly pointed out that the process of decisions tread carefully and meticulously research each by Ministers not being debated in the House and every Act and statute, regardless of whether either by way of a 21-day rule or resolution must it contained one or 100 sections. This House is be checked. Where government becomes more indebted to the work done behind the scenes over sophisticated and complicated and has more the past several years to bring this project to application in terms of EU law, there is a fruition. responsibility for secondary legislation to be The Minister of State noted that in excess of debated in this House and the other House in a 1,000 statutes remain in force and have not been much more substantial way than is the case now. included on the list. We will learn in the future We must take heed of the Supreme Court whether these will addressed in similar legislation warning. to this Bill and the Act that preceded it. I was interested to hear what the Minister of Every modern democracy imposes a responsi- State said about the review of post-Independence bility for achieving high standards of regulation. legislation. It must also be the case that many of Systems have to be put in place whereby ordinary the Acts passed since 1922 no longer have part- citizens can be fully aware of the law of the land. icular relevance and application and have been The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law outdated by either new Acts or significant Reform is beginning to roll out new codified amendments. I would be interested to hear how criminal justice legislation which will amalgamate the Minister of State is doing on that project. The virtually all the statutes affecting the criminal entire revision of our Statute is not just a matter justice system, so that matters such as sentencing relating to pre-Independence Ireland but also a are clearly outlined. We need to take that matter for post-Independence Ireland. On Com- approach on a range of other issues because citi- mittee and Report Stages we will have the oppor- zens must be able to comprehend the law without tunity to go the various statutes listed in the reference to previous legislation. As legislators, Schedule, which in effect is the substance of the we often face the challenge when amending legis- Bill. At this stage I welcome the ongoing project. lation of trying to review several Acts at the same This side of the House will always welcome any time to make sense of the law. We need to estab- codified statute that puts to one side redundant lish unified codified legislation so that prac- statutes and Acts of a previous Parliament. The titioners and citizens alike can identify precisely Minister of State deserves to be congratulated the status of legislation. because it is always difficult for the Government The Minister of State said: Whip to get time on the legislative calendar between his myriad of meetings with Opposition Our ultimate objective is to provide the Irish Whips and his duties in the other House. We wel- people with a single legislative code which is come today’s efforts and I give particular con- clear and accessible. This code will contain only gratulation to the staff in the Office of the laws enacted by the democratically elected Attorney General and the unit that has been Oireachtas. dealing with this project. I am aware of the progress made on pre-indepen- dence legislation but how far have we travelled in Ms O’Rourke: This is very exciting legislation. terms of achieving the ultimate objective? In the As the Minister of State was talking I thought course of his remarks he said that one of the few about all those centuries ago when clerks would delicacies of this House is our ability to put in have been bent over desks with very bad light place Private Bills. As he rightly reminded the thinking how they would write a Bill, whom it House, the last Bill enacted in that way was the would affect and whether it would be beneficial Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland Act 2003. to the people. I am well aware that the legislators In such Bills, a Senator acts as a sponsor for a of the time would have been of the elite class and private institution or company that makes a pet- would not have been elected by democracy — or ition to the Seanad as a means of bringing the at best by a rough form of democracy. Certainly legislation through the House. Even though in women did not have much of a say in the Parlia- recent years we have had few examples, it is an ment, in the making of the Bills or as voters. I important role of this House. think back to the people who drafted the Bills I will make some general observations about and the pressures that led to the need for the the process of legislation. The Oireachtas got a Bills. There must have been riots, marches, pet- very severe reprimand from the Supreme Court itions, lobbying, etc., before Bills were produced. some years ago and was correctly given a rap It is interesting that these two countries were gov- across the knuckles for the way in which minis- erned for so long by properly enacted laws, which terial orders and statutory instruments in part- is also exciting. A country governed by statutes icular are routinely signed off by Ministers with- has a certain authority and stability. out recourse to debate in this House. We have far The Minister of State hoped that we would too much primary legislation in both Houses of continue to support him and his office in what he 1937 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1938 is doing. I wholeheartedly say that we will. If he for the Irish people. We learn too of the laws has 20 more Bills, either in his present role or in which broke up the Irish monasteries because the some future manifestation, we will be very English kings decided they were hotbeds of pleased to take them here. I congratulate Richard sedition. They thought that in the middle of their Humphreys and his team, and the Attorney prayers the monks were cooking up plots to shoot General’s team. everyone they met. Many laws were discriminat- ory and reflected prejudices against certain Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. groups in society. One 11th century statute pro- vides for “Frenchmen to pay ‘scot and lot’ ”, Ms O’Rourke: I used to be a historian before I which was a discriminatory tax applicable only to became a politician. A Bill like this is exciting and the French. interesting and well worthwhile. They have only begun to make a small inroad into the mess of Mr. Norris: Hear, hear. Quite right. old legislation. For the first time the Bill gives a comprehensive list of the laws predating Indepen- Ms O’Rourke: Would Senator Norris have dence. It has two parts — a “white list” of Acts liked that? retained and as we are not allowed to mention “black” I will say a “grey list” of Acts repealed. Mr. Norris: Definitely. There are 3,188 Acts in the “grey list”, making this Bill by far the largest statute law revision Mr. Ryan: George Bush would agree. measure ever completed in Ireland. One would wonder why this and other governments that Mr. Norris: No French fries here. have been in power since 1922, when we had stopped fighting one another, did not start to Ms O’Rourke: Another Act, the Assise of address this matter. I know we were trying to live, Arms 1181, forbids Jewish people from owning build houses and schools, and get people sorted armour. The only statute which is being partially out. However, this matter should have been repealed by this Bill is the Bill of Rights of 1688. ongoing because we are governed by laws. It is It is interesting that there was a Bill of Rights in the bedrock on which we exist. 1688. Although it discriminated against particular As the Minister of State said, the Land and religions, the principle underlying it was fair. Conveyancing Law Reform Bill 2006, which has Nowadays we have various UN declarations on been passed by the Seanad and is shortly to come rights and years of this and that, and the year to before the Da´il, will repeal 130 of the Acts on the be of something else. The Bill of Rights contained white list. One modern composite Bill can do many provisions, but it granted a right to bear that. In coming years, the Government intends that all pre-Independence legislation will be repe- arms to Protestants but not to members of any aled and replaced with modern laws. If the awful other religion — they might go “bang-bang” in thing happened and we had a change of govern- the middle of the night. What about the Molly ment — that would be on the grey list — I hope Maguires or Sea´n O’Farrell and all those people the incoming Government would continue this who rose up in rebellion? They were not allowed very fine work. It is shocking to hear that we do to have arms. not know for certain, in this modern era, which laws currently apply to this State. Senator Brian Mr. Ryan: We are still banning the White Boys, Hayes asked how far along the path we were on that is retained legislation. this odyssey. Looking at the titles of the Acts and thinking about them represents a kind of odyssey. Dr. Mansergh: The Minister for Justice, What will be achieved by the Bill is long overdue. Equality and Law Reform would not like them. We are at last moving towards having all of these old laws repealed. These laws simply do not Mr. B. Hayes: There would be a smell of sul- have the democratic legitimacy we are entitled to phur in the air. expect in a modern democracy. Many of the Par- liaments which passed these laws were made up Ms O’Rourke: There are some interesting local exclusively of wealthy aristocratic men. While we Acts and which I emphasise because they are can say they were exclusive and elitist, they still important. Some statutes relate to Athlone and passed some very decent laws. We cannot simply Westmeath for example Schedule 1, Acts which put them in a corner with dunces’ hats. They are retained, including the Meath and Counties passed laws that were relevant to their times. of Westmeath Act 1543. This is the Act which There appear to be many laws from the 13th divided the historic county of Meath into the two and 14th centuries which blatantly discriminate modern counties of Meath and Westmeath. It can against the native Irish and which try to make be described as the foundation of County illegal the Irish language, Irish law and Irish tra- Westmeath. ditions. It is right and proper that all of these laws should be repealed. We think of the Penal Laws Mr. Kitt: They were getting ready for the and other laws that had very sad consequences Leader. 1939 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1940

Ms O’Rourke: We are with Longford now. The interesting about Kinnegad and Athlone. It is division into two counties was explained in the ironic that nearly 300 years later we are still put- Act as being because the western part, which ting tolls on the modern motorway between these became County Westmeath, was beset by rebels two towns. against the King. In common with many statutes Certain kinds of Acts will not be affected by relating to local Government, it has been listed the Statute Law Revision Bill. These are private in the “white list” and is not being repealed at Acts by which a person may have set up a chari- this time. table trust for a particular purpose, such as edu- Schedule 2 contains the Acts which are being cation or to deal with indigence or for health pur- repealed including 1254 (38 Hen. 3) [H.M.D.I.] poses. An example of such an Act is the private Dublin, Limerick and Athlone granted to Prince Act of 1761 which incorporated Wilson’s Hospital Edward. I always knew Athlone was up there School in County Westmeath. This Act was with the big towns and cities. They were granted looked at in detail by the Pre-lndependence Pro- to Prince Edward, the son of King Henry III, the ject because the school itself contacted the pro- cities of Dublin and Limerick with their counties ject to ensure that the Act would not be repealed. and the town and castle of Athlone. History does I know the school well and it is a fine school in not record how the people of Dublin, Limerick Multyfarnham. It must be subject to trust funding and Athlone felt about being given to Prince or something of that nature which, if the Act was Edward. He had a lovely castle to which to bring repealed, would cut it off from the trust. The his paramour or whatever they were called in school still plays as important a role in the com- those times. munity of Multyfarnham as it did 250 years ago The Leas Cathaoirleach, coming from the west, and the present Statute Law Revision Bill will do will be interested in 1733 (7 Geo. 2) c. 19, An Act nothing to interfere with the founding Act. for repairing the road leading from Kinnegad to The Minister of State and all who work with Athlone in the County of Westmeath. him have embarked on a long odyssey. It is neces- sary in a modern democracy that the project is Mr. Lydon: It has not been done yet. open and transparent. I was interested to hear that hundreds of people contacted the website Mr. B. Hayes: It is not done yet. when the Attorney General listed it. Of course people are interested because we are all subject Ms O’Rourke: Wait, there is more to come. to law. The project is time consuming and might Many Acts were passed in the 18th century to perhaps be tedious from time to time, although I facilitate the building and improvement of roads, would not think so because laws were made by and these are clearly obsolete in the modern day people for people. We give people greater access because we have a national development plan to modern laws which are created in full consul- which is doing this. tation which is also interesting. I hope the mod- ern road from Athlone to Kinnegad will be com- Mr. Ryan: Do not start on that topic. pleted quickly and the tolls continue to be paid.

Ms O’Rourke: No I will not start. Dr. Henry: I wish to share time with Senator Norris. I welcome the Minister of State to the Mr. B. Hayes: How many hundreds of years House this evening and I am delighted that his ago was that? officials who were involved in going through the legislation in the Attorney General’s office are Dr. Mansergh: We still have some medieval here. They must have had a great time. roads. Ms O’Rourke: Yes, wonderful. Ms O’Rourke: This was one such Act. It was passed because the road from Kinnegad to Dr. Henry: I would love to have been with Athlone had grown “so ruinous and bad that in them. the winter-season so many parts thereof are impassable to carriages and dangerous to travel- Mr. B. Hayes: The Senator would love to have lers”. The Act provided for the collection of a toll done it. of one shilling on certain vehicles travelling on the road and there do not appear to have been Dr. Henry: Going through all these ancient any riots or protests about that. People paid the Acts and deciding what to do about them must toll if they wanted to travel. have been fascinating because simply reading the Schedules to the Bill was fascinating. These Mr. Ryan: They could not go on any other include Acts such as that of 1154 stating that sons route in those days. There was no other road. of “villeins” ought not to be ordained.

Ms O’Rourke: I know. They travelled on the Mr. Norris: Hear, hear but some of them are. great Esker which brought them around Clon- macnoise. The toll was taken to fund the Dr. Henry: Under an Act of 1166 vagabonds, improvement of that road. That is most strangers, were not to stay more than one night 1941 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1942 in a house unless they became sick or their horse dix to its report. The Act to which I refer cannot died. That was reasonable but not having seen the just be repealed, it must be replaced. legislation I do not know why they had to be kicked out so rapidly. Ms O’Rourke: It should be replaced by legis- Many Acts dealt with marriage, not just lation couched in a modern idiom. between the King and Queen Jane or such matters but more general matters. It is interesting Dr. Henry: Exactly. We should be capable of how important that was because it was connected replacing it, particularly in light of the expert with possessions. Widows were not to be forced guidance provided in the report to which I refer. to marry. That is a serious problem in some parts I am glad Senator Lydon is present. The LRC’s of the developing where men die of AIDS and report discusses the sort of approach that should their widows are forced to marry another be adopted regarding people’s capacity to do member of the family, to keep property within things. It states that the status approach to capa- the family. Heaven knows why it was so useful at city involves making an across-the-board assess- that time to have such legislation. ment of a person’s capacity and that it views There are Acts to deal with the recognition of capacity in all-or-nothing terms and involves con- foreign marriages, in 1867 Odessa marriages, cluding that a person has no legal capacity based 1884, Greek marriages. In 1851 an Act was passed on the presence of a disability, rather than an for the removal of lunatics from India. I hope it assessment of his or her decision-making capabili- was only to remove Irish lunatics from India and ties. The report also refers to the functional that we were not expected to take everyone in. approach and states: It must have been a most exciting project and I The functional approach to capacity involves congratulate the officials involved on their work. an issue-specific and time-specific assessment I am glad to hear that more will be done of a person’s decision-making ability. It is because when Senator Quinn and I discussed this related to ability to make a particular decision before the debate he was anxious about some at the time it is to be made. This is in sharp Acts such as that of 1473, on the treatment of contrast to the all-or-nothing, one-off nature of foreign merchants which puts them under the a status approach to capacity. protection of the king, whoever he might be. The LRC recommends that we should choose the There is a great deal of legislation that requires latter approach, whereby an adult’s legal capacity further investigation and I am delighted to see is assessed in respect of the making of a decision that these last two Bills have begun this work so at the time it is to be made. well. Given that we are being provided with such I am perturbed however that we seem to be guidance, why are we being so slow in respect of incapable of updating the phraseology we use in taking action in this important area? The com- some of our legislation. The Leader will recall mission has recommended that where inap- that I was very angry when the propriate terminology is used in existing legis- 8 o’clock Prisons Bill was introduced before lation in respect of people who lack capacity, such Christmas and the term “persons of as in the Lunacy Regulation (Ireland) Act 1871, unsound mind” was again used. Under that Bill, this should be repealed and replaced. In addition, a person may lose his or her livelihood, even it provides guidelines as to what action should be though there is no medical definition of “persons taken in this regard. I recently asked the Leader of unsound mind”. I thought this extremely unfair whether the Minister of State, who is also and the Ta´naiste’s excuse regarding its inclusion Government Chief Whip, might add this — he is related to the fact that it is contained in 157 other lifting his eyes to heaven — to the already quite items of legislation. That is no reason for continu- long list of legislation to be dealt with before the ing to use the term in question. If we correct these end of the session. definitions, they can be changed in all the items Another item of legislation about which I am of legislation in which they appear. This would concerned is the Marriage of Lunatics Act 1811. be preferable to having terms such as “imbecile”, What is the meaning of that Act? “moron”, etc., appear in statutes. We should not use such terminology or allow it to remain in Ms O’Rourke: It means they were going to place, particularly when we are in a position to get married. take action in respect of it. I was particularly interested in the most recent Dr. Henry: The Act in question remains on the report of the Law Reform Commission, LRC, on Statute Book and relates to people who were vulnerable adults and the law, which referred in wards of court. We included in the Civil Regis- particular to the Lunacy Regulation (Ireland) Act tration Act 2004 that people who are wards of 1871. The latter is completely out of date but court must have a certificate from a doctor in remains on the Statute Book. The LRC suggests order to get married but I do not know what is that we should investigate the position and was the intention behind this. helpful to include replacement legislation — this There is so much legislation similar to that to could be modified by the Houses — in an appen- which I refer which remains on the Statute Book. 1943 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1944

[Dr. Henry.] opinion that this work is not finished and we look It is fine to remove legislation relating to Princess forward, in the knowledge that a great deal has Sophia’s naturalisation and the King and Queen been already done, to a further tidying up Jane. However, we must address legislation that operation. either needs to be replaced or that should be A constituent contacted me regarding the Pro- repealed. I hope progress will be quick in this tection of Animals Act 1911, which remains on regard because it is not right to describe people in the Statute Book. This is an extremely defective terms that no one would dream of using in public. item of legislation. I spoke to the principal adviser present in the Gallery — he has been Mr. Norris: I thank Senator Henry for sharing already named and rightly celebrated — who time. I welcome the opportunity to contribute to indicated that there are two processes at issue the debate. I had thought I would be delayed here. What is being done in the Bill merely elsewhere but I would not have missed this for involves retaining or repealing legislation. The the world because it is fascinating. I echo the other form of Bill in this area involves repealing compliments expressed to the members of the and replacing legislation. Let us move on and team present in the Gallery, who have done a engage in repealing and replacing legislation remarkable amount of work. I am reminded of because it is ridiculous to have in place an Act what Napoleon said with regard to codifying from 1911 that does not meet current conditions. French law under the Code Napoleon. Before Luckily, we did not experience incidents similar Napoleon took this step, the law in France was, to those which incurred in Britain involving chil- like Paris, chaotic and medieval. This was at a dren being savaged by pit bull terriers, Stafford- time when Dublin was being developed as the shire pups, etc. However, there is nothing to first fully planned city in Europe. The work done prevent them from happening in the future and by those present in the Gallery represents an we need to consider the matter before a tragedy enormous undertaking and I congratulate them. occurs. I hope, therefore, that consideration will I agree with Senator Henry that it would have be given to introducing the relevant legislation. been immense fun to engage in such work. What I disagree with colleagues in respect of the Irish we are being presented with is a complete, docu- language. It was a wonderful idea to try to mented social history. I will return to that matter extinguish the Irish language by legislation. We later because I first wish to make some reason- are the most awkward, difficult, rebellious people able and rational points before indulging myself, as others have done, in the delights of the archae- on earth. The Irish language has been a total ology of the legal system, which are revealed in calamity. The best way to revive it would be to this rather large Bill. outlaw it and to make the penalty for using it So much work has been done and I hope we death by hanging in a public place. There then have taken a further step and have, or are about would be queues of people outside Linguaphone to, catalogue these Acts by subject. The latter intent on learning the language. would be extremely helpful, particularly if one could browse the entire list of Acts relating to Mr. Ryan: There would be no fear of the conveyancing or whatever through the use of Senator—— computer technology. When new Bills are pro- duced, they always have attached to them a rig- Mr. Norris: Ta´ an Ghaeilge go flu´ irseach agam, marole of the Acts which must be repealed. In a Sheanado´ ir. We will have none of that old guff this Bill, we are being presented with a raft of from Senator Ryan. such Acts. My second point is that I hope the important Ms O’Rourke: What is Senator Norris process in which we are engaged will continue. I uttering? recall with great pleasure the Leader’s digressive and discursive contribution to the debate on pre- Mr. Norris: Trinity College had the first chair vious legislation in which she commented upon of Irish in this country. As chairman of the the arcane delights of Acts such as those to which Friends of the Library I presented to the library the Bill refers. This is an immensely interesting the Aibidil, which was the first printed book in subject because it provides one with a picture of Irish. It was written by a Canon in St. Patrick’s the history involved. The process should con- and printed—— tinue. We dealt with legislation of the sort before us on a previous occasion. May I steal a phrase Dr. Mansergh: The spirit of W.B. Yeats. and state that there is “A lot done, more to do”. Does that ring a bell? Mr. Norris: I hope that does not make the The Local and Personal Acts have not yet been Senator feel any more inferior. If he is feeling examined. There are also private Acts and the rotten tomorrow, I will pay for the treatment for Statutory Rules and Orders. As Senator Brian the inferiority complex because Trinity is a very Hayes indicated, some of the legislation and fine institution, as is UCC. statutory instruments introduced post-1922 needs to be examined. Members on all sides are of the Mr. B. Hayes: There is an election in the offing. 1945 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1946

Mr. Norris: On the Bill of Rights 1688, the be grateful to the RDS because they took over Leader was right to hone in on that. What this building from the Duke of Leinster and pre- interesting legislation. That was the restoration of served it. They had their science reading room, the Stuart monarchy, the glorious revolution, and lecture theatre and concert hall and they built the the Bill of Rights was to secure religious liberty wonderful cultural complex of the National because people were terrified that the Stuarts Museum, the Natural History Museum, the were secretly Roman Catholics. The libertarian National Gallery and the National Library. This aspects of the Bill have been retained. The one is the Act that led to the foundation of the being got rid of is the one that permitted only museum. We all stand greatly indebted to the Protestants to bear arms. It is about time that one people of the Royal Dublin Society. was repealed. I have no difficulty with that. Dr. Mansergh: I wish to share seven minutes of Ms O’Rourke: That is jolly good of the my time with Senator Lydon. Senator. An Cathaoirleach: Is that agreed? Agreed. Mr. Norris: It is rather decent of me. This is a real compact history of the country. The first one Dr. Mansergh: I welcome the Bill which is a mentioned is the erection of castle and fortifi- fascinating exercise. I compliment the team cations at Dublin — that takes it back to 1204 — involved in it. We are very much in their hands and the establishment of fairs at Donnybrook. It as they have the opportunity of studying the legis- probably goes on to the extinguishing by Act of lation and seeing what might or might not be rel- the fairs of Donnybrook because they became so outrageous. They added the word “Donnybrook” evant. Most of the legislation served a purpose in into universal language. its time although there were some dead letters I am very pleased, as a former member of the then as now. board of St. Patrick’s Cathedral, to have the Act Among the Acts to be repealed is the Freedom of 1474, the Confirmation to St. Patrick’s of Movement of the French in the realm Act Cathedral Dublin of foundation etc. and 1291. I suspect that was an Act to restrict the free- especially the Constitution called Dignitas Decant dom of movement of the French in the realm. etc. retained, and the Marsh’s Library Act 1707, That should certainly be got rid of. also a period of extraordinary religious turbu- There are a number of Acts Senator Lydon lence, when the great Bouhe´reau came here and might talk about, including the Freedom of the donated his entire library. Archbishop Narcissus Church of God Act and the Application to the Marsh left money to erect that beautiful building Lord King if any of his officials are to be excom- in St. Patrick’s Close. municated, not to mention St. John of Jerusalem. I am most interested in the Whiteboy Act, I am glad to see the attainder of my ancestor, which is being retained. Apparently, there was a Shane O’Neill, repealed. Alas, it did not stop his Supreme Court case in the past 20 years or so head being put on a spike outside Dublin Castle which held that it was still active. That is partic- in 1566. ularly interesting because this very night there is There is one Act that should be examined more a television programme on RTE about the carefully because it has an ongoing relevance. I whiteboys. refer to an adventurer called Erasmus Smith. To this day, the Erasmus Smith fund is applied, as a Ms O’Rourke: No. That is about the Molly result of a legal settlement in the late 1930s, to Maguires. the Abbey School CBS, Tipperary, but I believe there are also Erasmus Smith scholarships in Mr. Norris: But they were regarded in America Trinity College. It was divided into two halves in and so described as a branch of the whiteboys, the 1930s — a Catholic half and a Protestant half. and they were so described this morning in an We must ensure the Adventurers Subscriptions advertisement on RTE. Acts of 1640 do not affect that. I draw that point to the Minister’s attention. I notice with interest Ms O’Rourke: It is on at 9.30 tonight. that the Irish Free State (Agreement) Act of 1922 Mr. Norris: We had better hurry up this debate. is to be repealed, something of which I entirely I want to mention two other matters. approve. I am disappointed that the Whiteboy Acts are An Cathaoirleach: Senator Norris, I am being retained. I hope it is not to allow the Mini- informed your time is concluded. ster for Justice, Equality and Law Reform denounce the rebels of the 18th century. One of Mr. Norris: I believe I have a minute remain- the great judicial scandals of the 18th century, ing. I will only take half of it. The General Post 1766, was the execution of Fr. Nicholas Sheehy Office Dublin Act, establishing that wonderful under the allegation that he was a whiteboy. It is building in O’Connell Street designed by Francis somewhat of a stain on our Statute Book that Johnston, is being retained as is the Dublin such legislation should be retained a moment Science and Art Museum Act 1884. We should longer than necessary. 1947 Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: 7 February 2007. Second Stage 1948

[Dr. Mansergh.] I am delighted this is an ongoing process. I I wish to make one further point of substance. believe, however, we should have been given a It is true in general that we should have a Statute more detailed explanation of what these Acts Book that is consolidated and codified, similar to involved. There have been times we have rushed the Code Napoleon, sweeping away the clutter of legislation without going into the detail. We previous centuries. However, we must remember should be informed if the removal of some of — I am mindful of a number of symbolic items these statutes could have various implications. I of legislation — that we are not as yet a united am sure the researchers did a good job but some- country. We could compare notes with our fellow times they may make mistakes. rebels in America on whether there might be some merit in retaining two of the statutes that Mr. Ryan: Seans go bhfuil tagairt no´ dho´ da´r are part of the basis of representative government dteanga du´ chais i measc na reachtaı´ochta ata´ le as opposed to democratic government, which are scriosadh. Ta´im ag smaoineamh ar thosu´an not quite the same. One is Magna Carta, which is fheachtais chun deighilt a chur i bhfeidhm idir — being retained currently, and the other is the part mar a deir an tseanreachtaı´ocht — “the Irish of the Bill of Rights which would have a great enemies and the English”. Is mar sin a luaitear deal of meaning to another tradition in this iad, agus b’fhe´idir gur cheart dom labhairt as island. Some care needs to be taken in this Gaoluinn beaga´inı´n. Ta´ rudaı´ ann, go mo´ rmho´ r respect. I am mindful of the broader political sa reachtaı´ocht a bheidh a´ coimea´d i bhfeidhm implications. This brings to mind philosophical againn go ceann tamaillı´n. thoughts. I would not be an unmitigated Burkean My first impression about the range of legis- but I would not be unmitigated French revol- lation to be repealed and revised was how much utionary either. A balance needs to be found. of it related to drink. There are many amusing elements of this legis- lation that I do not have time to go into. I will Ms O’Rourke: Plus c¸a change. hand over to Senator Lydon. Mr. Ryan: In the list of statutes I found numer- Mr. Lydon: Thank God for the men of 1916 ous references to drink through titles concerning either beerhouses, spirits, drunkards or inebri- who ensured we can make our own laws and not ates. I yet have to meet a lawyer who can tell me depend, as we did for 800 years, on those of our the difference between a drunk and an inebriate. nearest neighbour. It is astounding there are 4,500 statutes that may be still in force and that Ms O’Rourke: One is merry and the other sad. 3,188 of these may still apply. As Senator Mansergh asked, because of the inexorable move Mr. Lydon: One is a solicitor and the other a towards a united Ireland, have we taken into barrister. account consulting the people in Northern Ireland about the possible implications of remov- Mr. Ryan: Among the team of very brilliant ing some of these laws and statutes to which they people who drafted this legislation is a good cling and are probably still law in their part of friend and occasional adviser of mine. I hope he the country? will explain to me the difference between a drunk Why are some of these laws to be retained? It and an inebriate. I suppose it is the difference beggars belief, as Senator Norris said, that we are between depression and elation. holding on to the Fairs Act 1204, whose subject It is time we dispensed with so much of the matter is the erection of castle and fortifications offensive language contained in legislation such at Dublin and the establishment of fairs at as “lunatics”, “imbeciles” and so forth. There is Donnybrook, Waterford and Limerick? Why are the case for a separate and focussed research we holding on to the City of Dublin Act 1215, group to eliminate this appalling language that is whose subject matter is the annual rent for still carried forward. It is almost 15 years since I Dublin city? Why the Sheriffs Act 1293, about heard a Minister for Justice accept that the langu- the appointment of sheriffs and the Treatment of age was out-of-date but we are still waiting for it Foreign merchants Act 1473, which put foreign to be dispensed with. merchants under the protection of the King? I share Senator Lydon’s wonder as to why Members may be interested in the Parliamentary legislation dealing with the dress of Lords and Privilege Act 1471 until they find it deals with the their right, and that of their servants, not to be freedom from arrest of Lords coming to Parlia- arrested on the way to Parliament is necessary ment, and their servants. I see less point of the legislation to be retained in the Republic. There Courts Act 1476 that lays down that the Lords are wonderful phrases in some of the statutes must wear their robes in Parliament. It beggars such as the question of illusory appointments. It belief that the Marriage (No. 2) Act 1537, which brings to mind the more recent controversies concerned the succession between the King and about appointments to State boards which in Queen Jane, has any relevance to the Ireland of some cases appear to be fairly illusory. today. The same can be said of the Piracy Act 1613 and the Pawnbrokers Act 1634. Mr. B. Hayes: Some things never change. 1949 Business 7 February 2007. of Seanad 1950

Mr. Ryan: Another statute dealt with the aban- Mr. Ryan: I found the phrase “reproductive donment of railways. It makes one wonder how loans” amusing and shows the wonderful way lan- much the world really changes. I was fascinated guage changes over centuries. I was intrigued to by the Tithing of Turnips Act 1835. I accept the find references to the national debt. Minister of State may not be able to cast some light on this, unless he has been doing a wonder- Debate adjourned. ful amount of reading. Why is legislation dealing with the tithing of turnips which have been sev- Business of Seanad. ered from the ground being retained? Ms O’Rourke: I propose an amendment to the Joking apart, this is a wonderful exercise in Order of Business such that Senator Ryan be learning our social, as distinct from our military, allowed to conclude and the Minister of State, history. Why does this revision exercise begin Deputy Kitt, be allowed ten minutes to reply. with legislation from 1169? Ireland had a code of law before 1169. Question put and agreed to.

Ms O’Rourke: Yes, the Brehon law. Statute Law Revision Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed). Mr. Ryan: Brehon law is referred to in one of Question again proposed: “That the Bill be the statutes being given a stay of execution. Are now read a Second Time.” we effectively saying that there was no rule of law before 1169, the year of invasion? Mr. Ryan: A description of one of the Acts Interesting themes can be identified in the being repealed refers to the “English not to stir evolution of legislation. One is the gradual pro- up war”. I am not sure, in view of Prime Minister gression of the abolition of slavery in which the Tony Blair’s activities, whether we are wise in British Parliament was the most enlightened in repealing such legislation. This Bill is not the stuff the world at the time. One of the great advocates of high politics or high conflict, but it is an edu- for the abolition of slavery was the Liberator, cation and privilege to be involved in the debate. Daniel O’Connell. He refused to visit the United We could go on forever entertaining each other States during his political career because of the with the peculiarities of the legislation but we will existence of slavery there. When he met political not do so. visitors from a state in the US where slavery was I wish the Minister of State well in bringing the retained, he refused to shake hands with them. I Bill through the Oireachtas. I ask him to respond did not appreciate until recently the extraordi- specifically on the issue of offensive language, nary consistency of his liberal beliefs. It was not including words such as “imbeciles” and “lunat- just about Ireland. He had extraordinarily ics”. We must deal with such language once and enlightened views on slavery and colonialism. I for all through one or more Bills. No legislation accept he was not very enlightened about the should remain on the Statute Book that uses such language. rights of working people. Minister of State at the Department of the Ms O’Rourke: He was not enlightened about Taoiseach (Mr. T. Kitt): I thank the Cathaoir- the rights of women except in a certain category. leach and Members for the courtesy they have shown in this debate and for their genuine Mr. Ryan: Yes, but 200 years ago no one was interest in this Bill. It is always a pleasure to come enlightened about women’s rights. Even women to this House. I will do my best to respond to were not enlightened about their rights. The slav- some of the Members’ specific queries but I ery theme grows and one can observe a timeline cannot deal with all of them. I give a commit- in the increase of the ferocity of the legislation ment, however, to respond before Committee against it. Stage with relevant information, summaries of Since I was first elected to the Seanad, I have Acts and so on in regard to any queries Members always argued the phrase “vagrancy” should not may have. This type of debate provokes further exist in legislation. It is not as offensive as “im- interest and research, and I would like us all to becile” or “lunatic” but it is a product of another be as well prepared as possible on Committee time. It is a judgment and presumption about Stage. One Member asked why explanations were very poor people. not given for all the Acts. If Members contact my I am intrigued by the Irish Musical Fund Act office, I will ensure as much information as pos- 1794 and legislation concerning disorderly sible is made available to them. houses. I presume the latter that refers to drink I thank Senator Brian Hayes for his comments. rather than politics. He asked about the review of post-1922 legis- lation. The Office of the Attorney General has Dr. Mansergh: Of course not. prepared a database of post-Independence legis- 1951 Domiciliary 7 February 2007. Care Allowance 1952

[Mr. T. Kitt.] into all the detail that is necessary. We all agree lation and it is hoped to commence preparation that progress has been made and that significant of a new Bill dealing with that in the coming work remains ahead of us. months. As part of the Government’s better regu- Senator Lydon asked why the Acts in Schedule lation programme, as set out in the 2004 White 1 are being retained on Committee Stage. Some Paper, all Departments are working to identify are old but still relevant. An interesting example and advance initiatives to reform, consolidate and of this is the Marriage Act 1537, to which refer- codify key areas of legislation. As Senator Hayes ence was made in the High Court last November. noted, the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is advancing work on criminal Ms O’Rourke: That case related to a woman justice. The Department of Finance is considering who wanted to marry her brother-in-law. a major consolidation of financial law, while the Revenue Commissioners have consolidated much Mr. Kitt: Senator Ryan mentioned Brehon law. of the legislation under their area of remit and This was an oral tradition rather than a statute are currently considering a significant initiative to law. After the Norman-English introduced stat- reform customs legislation. ute law to Ireland, the Brehon Law was sup- Senator O’Rourke, as usual, provided some pressed during the 17th century and no such laws interesting observations and expressed her desire survived in the legal system. that we continue this work. I thank her for paying I thank Members for participating in this short tribute to our research team. She took us for an debate. More time is required for debates of this interesting journey through Kinnegad and nature. I remind them to let me know if they have Athlone. I hope she will get credit for all the queries on any particular Acts. There were many work she has done down through the years. queries to which I cannot respond because of Senator Henry spoke about the process of time restraints. updating and simplifying legislation. The Inter- I take this opportunity to acknowledge, as pretation Act 2005 updates and simplifies the Members have done, the work of the team of interpretation of statutes in a way that allows for officials in the Office of the Attorney General legislation that uses more accessible language. In who engaged in detailed and considerable response to Senator Norris’s query, the Office of research to identify both the statutes for retention the Attorney General recently commenced a pro- and those for repeal. It was a complex task to cess of classifying the white list into various sub- identify these Acts and all of us, including myself, ject matters. This will provide a blueprint for would like to be involved in this fascinating pro- future law reform measures. cess. Much work remains to be done. I thank the Senator Norris also asked about how the prog- Cathaoirleach for giving me the opportunity to ramme of legislative reform will be continued. As respond to Members. I also thank Members for part of the better regulation programme, the giving this Bill the attention it deserves and for Government is committed to ensuring the Statute their detailed and insightful comments. Book is up-to-date, modern and accessible to all citizens. As such, work will continue in Question put and agreed to. researching, removing and, where necessary, repealing any more recent Acts, as appropriate. Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 13 Work will also continue to modernise and reform February 2007. the post-1922 legislation. An Cathaoirleach: When is it proposed to sit Reference was made to the Protection of Ani- again? mals Act. I advise Members that this legislation is not suitable for repeal as it is still in use. Ms O’Rourke: At 10.30 a.m. tomorrow. Section 1(1), as amended, provides the current legislative definition of cruelty to animals, an Adjournment Matters. important issue for all of us. Senator Mansergh asked about the Whiteboy ———— Act. Taking the view that much work has been done and much remains to be done, this is a good Domiciliary Care Allowance. example of an Act in respect of which there is work to be done. I understand it may still be rel- Ms O’Rourke: I raise the matter of the pay- evant to the laws on riots and tumultuous risings. ment of domiciliary care allowances in County I will convey Senator Mansergh’s views to the Westmeath. Perhaps this pertains to many other Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, counties but I am dealing with the problems in who is currently examining this area for the pur- County Westmeath. Apparently, the position is poses of undertaking a project to codify the crimi- that domiciliary care allowance claims received in nal law. Members will appreciate there is so much the latter part of 2005 are being assessed and the work involved that it is virtually impossible to go waiting time for a decision is at least 18 months. 1953 Domiciliary 7 February 2007. Care Allowance 1954

Nobody can understand why it is taking so many Ms O’Rourke: People cannot get it. months for a decision. Many people are waiting for this payment, Mr. T. O’Malley: This is an increase of 12.1% principally mothers with children who require on the rate of payment since June 2006. Recipi- particular care — that is the reason for the domi- ents of domiciliary care allowance also receive a ciliary care allowance. It is a very useful payment respite care grant payment during the first week because often a mother must get somebody into of June each year. The rate of payment for 2007 the home if she has to go somewhere or special will be \1,500. This is an increase of 25% on the materials must be provided. It is scandalous that rate of payment since 2006. people must wait a year and half to be assessed In regard to the current situation in the Long- as to their suitability to be granted the domiciliary ford-Westmeath local health office area, I under- care allowance. I am not blaming the Minister of stand that the post of principal medical officer State but the system. That is the nub of the was vacant for some time and this resulted in a problem. considerable backlog of applications for domicili- A medical assessment must take place but ary care allowance. I have been informed that this surely it should not take 18 months to decide if a post has now been filled and the principal medical child is eligible and for the parent or guardian to officer is endeavouring to clear this backlog as be given the domiciliary care allowance. I told quickly as possible. those with whom I spoke that I would raise this At present the area medical staff providing issue in the House because I was quite services in the Longford-Westmeath local health gobsmacked, to put it mildly, that it should take office area are also involved in dealing with the 18 months for a decision. provision of immunisation services, nursing home inspections and child health assessments. The Minister of State at the Department of Health Health Service Executive is currently engaged in and Children (Mr. T. O’Malley): I thank Senator a recruitment process for two additional senior O’Rourke for raising this matter on the Adjourn- medical officers for the Longford-Westmeath ment which I am taking on behalf of the Minister area to ensure adequate service provision in the for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, and for local health office area and to deal with outstand- outlining the position in regard to the domiciliary ing applications for allowances and other services. care allowance. I appreciate the problems raised by Senator The domiciliary care allowance is a monthly O’Rourke. The position is certainly not satisfac- allowance administered by the Health Service tory. I will try to ensure the senior medical officer Executive and may be paid in respect of eligible is appointed as quickly as possible. I understand children from birth to the age of 16 who have a the allowance can be backed dated following severe disability requiring continual or continu- examination of the application. I know that answer is not satisfactory for the parents whom ous care and attention which is substantially in Senator O’Rourke represents but it is an adminis- excess of that normally required by a child of the trative problem. same age. The condition must be likely to last for at least one year. Where medical confirmation is Ms O’Rourke: With the Acting Chairman’s supplied which pre-dates the actual date of appli- permission, I wish to ask a supplementary ques- cation and the Health Service Executive’s senior tion. The Minister of State stated that the posi- area medical officer is satisfied that the child tion of principal medical officer has been filled. required continual or continuous care and atten- Is that correct? tion, substantially in excess of that normally required by a child of the same age, then payment Mr.T.O’Malley:That is correct. may be made from the date the senior area medi- cal officer is satisfied that such additional care Ms O’Rourke: I am aware the Minister of State and attention was required. may be unable to give me the details this evening. Eligibility for domiciliary care allowance is However, can his office inform me tomorrow as determined primarily by reference to the degree to when it is anticipated the 18-month backlog of additional care and attention required by the will be cleared? The Minister of State has stated child rather than to the type of disability he understands this can be backdated. If parents involved, subject to the means test. It is a matter or guardians are found to be eligible for domicili- for the HSE medical officer in the relevant com- ary care, will it be backdated to the date of appli- munity care area to decide whether or not a child cation for the domiciliary care allowance? qualifies for domiciliary care allowance on medi- My main request is to be supplied with this cal grounds. information tomorrow as I will attend a meeting The current rate of payment for domiciliary of the parents in question tomorrow night. I wish care allowance which came into effect on 1 to know by tomorrow when the principal medical January 2007 is \281.30 per month. officer believes he will have the backlog cleared. 1955 Genetically 7 February 2007. Modified Organisms 1956

[Ms O’Rourke.] mal feed is genetically modified. She stated that Can the Minister of State let my office know by she wanted choice as to the kind of feed con- tomorrow? sumed by the animals she was eating and she has a point in this respect. Mr.T.O’Malley:I will try to get the infor- The former Minister for Agriculture and Food, mation for the Senator tomorrow. Deputy Walsh, used to agree with me that the fatty acids produced in grass-fed cattle are far Genetically Modified Organisms. more healthy for humans than the fatty acids pro- Dr. Henry: I thank the Minister of State for duced in corn-fed animals. I repeatedly told him attending the House this evening. I am trying to — he agreed with me — that we should make consider the issue regarding genetically modified selling points of such issues in Ireland and that it food, crops and so forth from an economic point was economically important. My complainant of view. While I am sure the Department also told me she wanted to have choice in respect of considers it, I wonder whether it does so the food consumed by the animals. However, sufficiently seriously. There is an increasing being familiar with the findings regarding fatty demand for food that is either organic or what acids, I could not tell her she was necessarily members of the public would consider to be wrong, regardless of whether the corn was geneti- healthy, traditional and so forth. I do not consider cally modified. While this subject may be rather GM foods are likely to make me ill or to cause esoteric, people are becoming increasingly careful other people illness. Unfortunately, we have had about what they eat. some issues in the past that have caused great I believe we should promote Irish food as lack of confidence among the public in respect of health food and I am sure the Minister of State food. I refer in particular to the development of and all at the Department of Agriculture and bovine spongiform encephalopathy, BSE, in Food would agree. However, I wonder whether cattle due to bonemeal being fed to the animals the Department has considered the economics of and the subsequent development of new variant this issue sufficiently carefully. I do not refer to Creuzfeld-Jakob disease in humans who ate that the health aspects, which have been covered meat. adequately, but to the economics of it. Cheap People have become highly suspicious of the food policies have driven the production of food assertions given to them that food is safe. This is since the close of the Second World War. The unfortunate because although the majority of proportion of people’s income devoted to putting food produced in Ireland is safe, it takes a long food on the table is now much less than was the time to reassure people after something like that case 20, 30 or 40 years ago. While this is good, it happens. I had never heard of prions before the does not mean necessarily that our nutrition is BSE scare or the development of the disease. better. As Members are aware, Ireland has Interesting however, in the early 1970s, a vet in experienced an explosion in obesity and type-2 Trinity College suggested that these were pos- diabetes. sible vectors of disease. He appreciated that even The outbreak of avian flu in the turkey farm in though they lacked nuclei. However, I do not England, in which people have seen the battery believe much attention was paid to his findings. farms that house poultry numbering in the hun- While I do not believe I will contract a terrible dreds of thousands and that are confined to a disease by eating genetically modified foods, small area is also significant in making people there are those who are really put off by the idea think about what is going on in this regard. One of eating such foods. As one person put it, while issue that concerns me greatly is that in such bat- it is all well and good to assert that it is all right, one does not want to eat dog, as they do in China. tery farms, the feed contains what are described I do not believe it does them any harm. More- as growth promoters, which are in fact antibiotics. over, in west Africa, people eat agouti, a large While they are not antibiotics eaten by the Mini- rodent and people there have tried to feed it to ster of State, the Acting Chairman or me, they me, claiming it tastes like a cross between chicken remain antibiotics. As evident from the soaring and rabbit. I have declined, stating that I would sales of organic or traditionally reared chicken, manage myself. While I am sure it would not do many people consider the feeding of such growth any harm, I do not necessarily wish to eat it. promoters to poultry to be a serious problem. Consequently, we must ensure people have the Some people do not wish to eat them and people choice of what they wish to eat. should be given choice. Why can we not capitalise The most recent complaint I received in this on this market? regard followed questions regarding animal feed Apart from the fact that apparently nut put to the Minister for Agriculture and Food by allergies can pass through genetically modified Members of the Green Party on 1 December. The corn, I am not particularly worried by its health lady who complained to me stated that appar- implications. However, I am seriously concerned ently 75% of the corn imported to Ireland for ani- about the fact that cross-pollination with organic 1957 Genetically 7 February 2007. Modified Organisms 1958 and traditional crops in Ireland may be easier Notwithstanding that, options are available than we had realised. within member states and regions to restrict the I am aware the EU legislation does not allow growing of GM crops. One option is the concept us to ban such items. However, Austria, of voluntarily developed GM free regions, where Germany, France and some other member states a voluntary agreement is reached among all grow- have cordoned off areas in respect of what can be ers in a region not to grow GM crops. Another grown there. I wonder whether the economics of option is to seek a derogation from the European the increased demand for traditional or organic Commission that, on the basis of sound scientific foods have been investigated thoroughly. Ireland evidence, co-existence of GM crops with non-GM is a small island nation with a great agricultural crops is not possible in certain regions in respect tradition and I wonder whether this niche market of certain named crops. The cultivation of these has been properly investigated. crops can then be legitimately prohibited if the case made is accepted by the Commission. Minister of State at the Department of Agri- The second issue I wish to address is the ques- culture and Food (Ms M. Wallace): I thank tion of GM crops cross pollinating with non-GM Senator Henry for raising this important matter crops. The Senator may be aware that an inter- in the House and I propose to address the topic departmental working group established by the in three distinct parts. The first relates to the Department presented a report and recom- question of excluding GM crops from Irish agri- mendations on how best authorised GM crops culture, the second to cross-pollination between could co-exist with non-GM crops should the GM and non-GM crops and the third pertains to Irish farming community decide to cultivate such the issue of the economic value in respect of the crops. We are considering the measures proposed by the working group in conjunction with obser- GM crops. vations I received in a public consultation process Before doing so, as the Senator referred to ani- held early last year on the recommendations mal feed, I will clarify the figures in that regard made. for her friend. While GM crops are not grown in The proposed co-existence measures will focus Ireland, it imports a considerable amount of GM on creating conditions during the cultivation, har- maize, soya and rapeseed for incorporation into vest, transport and storage of crops that will make animal feed. I refer to import statistics from 2005. it possible for conventional and organic growers A total of 464,000 tonnes of GM maize were to keep the adventitious presence of GMOs in imported, which constituted 95% of total imports. their crops below the labelling thresholds estab- The figure for GM soya was 204,000 tonnes, lished in community law. Measures are also pro- which also constituted 95% of total imports. The posed to provide redress to an organic farmer figure for GM rapeseed was 4,300 tonnes, or 3% who suffers verifiable economic loss as a result of of total imports. The aforementioned figures in admixture of GM crops with non-GM crops. respect of these GM foods might be even greater At the request of the Minister for Agriculture than Senator Henry thought. While I do not and food, Deputy Coughlan, Teagasc carried out know whether that is any consolation, I wanted an evaluation of the possible national economic to provide her with the figures as they are. implications for the agrifood industry from the As the Minister for Agriculture and Food, use of GMOs in crop and livestock production. Deputy Coughlan, has stated in this House on a Teagasc based its study on the economic impli- number of previous occasions, the rules govern- cations of allowing the importation into Ireland ing the production and the use of of certified GM-free soyabean and maize live- 9 o’clock GM crops within the European stock feed ingredients only and the economic Union are set out in EU legislation. implications of GM-free crop cultivation in The Senator also referred to this point. The legis- lation has been jointly adopted by the European Ireland. Parliament and the Council and is binding on all In the first scenario, the study showed substan- member states. This legislation does not provide tial additional costs would be placed on the live- for the unilateral declaration of a GM free coun- stock sector, particularly on specialist dairy and try or region as Senator Henry stated. In effect, beef farmers, if they were to use certified GM- this means it is illegal for any competent authority free soya and maize only in feedingstuffs. In the to prohibit the cultivation of GM crops author- second scenario, the study examined five hypo- ised under the stringent EU authorisation pro- thetical GM crops which could be grown here, cedures and listed on the EU Common Catalogue including herbicide tolerant sugar beet, septoria of Agriculture Plant Varieties, should a farmer resistant winter wheat, fusarium resistant winter wish to cultivate such crops. However, it should wheat, rhyncosporium resistant spring barley and be noted that at present only one GM crop is blight resistant potatoes. This evaluation showed authorised for cultivation within the EU and that increased profits could be generated for growers is a GM maize variety only suitable for growing of these GM crops compared to their conven- conditions in southern Europe, particularly Spain. tional equivalent. However, the evaluation also 1959 The 7 February 2007. Adjournment 1960

[Ms M. Wallace.] production and use of GM crops will continue to showed a significant cost would be incurred with be monitored. regard to identity preservation for conventional Dr. Henry: I thank the Minister of State for her growers in a co-existence arrangement. reply which I find extremely encouraging. I hope In a report prepared by the Irish Council for we will not focus on short-term profits. If she sees Bioethics in November 2005, Genetically Modi- the former Minister, Deputy Walsh, in the corri- fied Crops and Food: Threat or Opportunity for dors of power she might discuss with him the live- Ireland? Opinion, the question of Ireland losing stock sector, particularly fatty acids in beef. A its “clean green” image if GM crops were grown major selling point is that grass-fed beef is better in this country was addressed and it concluded, for one than corn-fed beef. “...fears over the loss of Ireland’s ‘clean green’ image, solely on the basis of the introduction of GM crops, would appear to be somewhat mis- The Seanad adjourned at 9.05 p.m. until placed.” The need for further evaluations on the 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 8 February 2007.