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STANFORD UNIVERSITY

PROJECT: Bob Murphy Interviews

INTERVIEWEE: Milton Vucinich

Bob: [0:01] Well, hello again everybody. Once again we're visiting with one of the immortals, we're going all the way back to that fabulous 1940 football season at Stanford, The 41 , The victory over Nebraska in the Rose Bowl and Milt Vucinich and Vuch number 32 if I got it right. [0:18] Miton.

Milton: [0:18] 32.

Bob: [0:19] Number 32 huh?

Milton: [0:19] Bless you, that you remembered my number. You made my day.

Bob: [laughs] [0:20]

Milton: [0:23] You know that was only 60 years ago, I'm proud of you Murph.

Bob: [0:26] We got a reflect on one of the great chapters in Stanford football history. First, before we really get into it, why all you guys got to Stanford? It was interesting you know because "Tiny" Thornhill and the Foul boys did a great job - 1933, 34 and 35 and then Tiny stayed on, and never had a winning season after that. Stanford football was really down and yet the greatest players in many respects that Stanford has ever had, all got together at Stanford and ended up in the 41 Rose Bowl. How'd you guys ever up at Stanford?

Milton: [1:03] That's a very good point, never thought about that. In my case, as a youngster I got to following Stanford, and for no good reason other than I think is that I like their red jerseys.

Bob: [1:15] Local guy. p.2

Milton: [1:16] Local boy, living at San Francisco and so when I had the opportunity to come to Stanford, the year that I came in as a freshman, Stanford had lost all but one game, I think the only game they won was the last game of the season.

Bob: [1:31] That's right.

Milton: [1:32] And, so now they, they lose their coach, Tiny Thornhill leaves and they bring a man..., let me go back in there, in the mean time was coaching in the University of and they lost all their games there.

Bob: [1:47] He was coaching them right out of football [laughs] .

Milton: [1:49] That's exactly right. In fact, he gave up football and I remember my fraternity we were sitting around talking and somebody said you know it'd be just like Stanford to hire this fellow Shaughnessy to coach us. Well sure enough, there he is. Everybody was quiet upset about it, but amazing man actually. I can remember it as if it was yesterday, he walks in and meantime the sports writer right away start hitting on him calling him Soup, "Soup" Shaughnessy and so forth...

Bob: [laughs] [2:19]

Milton: [2:20] ...and when he walks in, he is ramrod straight, very distinguished looking, a big man, a powerful man, a very strong voice and he started talking and believe it or not, when he was through he really had us thinking, "Hey! Maybe, he is telling us the truth. Maybe we will win all our games."

Bob: [2:43] You know, Vuc it's funny you mentioned the and of course I knew that that's where Shaughnessy came from but our old team doctor Bob Jampolis came from the University of Chicago, God level Jamp, one of our dear, dear friends, gone now but we still remember him so well and he was a quarter-back for Shaughnessy. [3:01] Shaughnessy was doing some funny things, he was thinking about that T-formation and the other factor about the University of Chicago, won the first , he was the first Heisman trophy winner and he came from the University of Chicago whoever guessed that that school would drop football. p.3

Milton: [3:19] Yeah it's amazing. I remember that. I was a youngster at that time, I followed football over and I remember Berwanger winning that as you say the first title. What they call the...

Bob: [3:31] Heisman trophy.

Milton: [3:32] Heisman Trophy winner.

Bob: [3:34] Well Vuc let's go back to how you all got together. It ended up with losing one of our dear pal who's gone , Hugh Galerno, Norm Stanley and Pete [Inaudible 3:44] a back-field that will always be remembered, Frankie from Glendale. Shaughnessy had been playing around with the T-formation, he was very close to and the . With the Bears and the University of Chicago, he had a very inventive mind. Can you talk about that, I mean he was way ahead of the pack.

Milton: [4:04] Well, interesting enough that first year, you know when he came to Stanford, that's when he started out with the T-formation.

Bob: [4:11] Yeah.

Milton: [4:12] But, I don't think a lot of people remember this, we were still running some single wing stuff. In other words at that point in time he was a 100 percent convinced how we were going to go.

Bob: [laughs] [4:25] If this doesn't works, we're going back to the old stuff.

Milton: [4:28] The old stuff, that's right.

Bob: [laughs] [4:30]

Milton: [4:31] And, it was amazing, hardly anyone remembers that. But getting back to Mr. Shaughnessy, he had a way about him. You know, as the coach, people think coaches in different ways, like he wasn't a type of coach that if Oh, you are having trouble with your school work or you have any financial problems or something, you wouldn't go to Mr. Shaughnessy. [4:56] He wouldn't do things like that. But he had great assistant coaches like Marty Schwartz, Phil Bankston, Jim Lawson and if you were backfield man, p.4

you went to your backfield coachand so on and so forth. But he, Mr. Shaughs, I keep calling him Mr. Shaughs because that's what you call...

Bob: [5:13] With a little respect.

Milton: [5:14] A lot of respect.

Bob: [5:16] ...lot of respect. Yeah.

Milton: [5:18] Yeah. In fact, the first thing he told us, when he came in that day to meet us was "Now boys", he called us boys, he says "Now boys, you read some things in the paper, about this and that and so forth but I just wanted you to understand this, my name is Mr. Shaughnessy or Coach". So that, take care of that, we know we were going to call him "Soup."

Bob: [5:40] Yeah. And no Clark either huh?

Milton: [5:41] No Clark either. No, no, no.

Bob: [5:43] No, not that stuff. Now you talked about some of the assistant coaches, Phil Bankston later became known as one of the great minds in the game of football, spent a lot of time with Vince Lombardi, with the and Jim Lawson of course was a great All American, played with Ernie Nevers at Stanford Wizard, great, great player. So...

Milton: [6:01] Marty Schwartz?

Bob: [6:02] Yeah. Marty became at Stanford and had a lot of success before it ran out and...

Milton: [6:06] I had...

Bob: [6:07] ..that led to...

Milton: [6:09] Do you know...

Bob: [6:10] ...to all kinds of stuff. p.5

Milton: [6:11] Did you know Marty was kind of a kid's toy for me. I was about 12-13 years old living in , I was a native San Franciscan but for whatever reason, I was living in Los Angeles for a few years and everything was USC down there of course. So rather than going along with that, Marty Schwartz was playing at Notre Dame at that time. So for whatever reason they'd be talking about their USC pals, I'd say I think Schwartz in Notre Dame is better, Schwartz this, Schwartz...

Bob: [laughs] [6:42]

Milton: [6:43] P.S. They started calling me Schwartz. Well...

Bob: [6:44] Marty was a great player in Notre Dame. Great.

Milton: [6:47] Oh. All time great. A half-back.

Bob: [6:48] Yeah.

Milton: [6:50] He was [Inaudible : ] , I mean one time as the one of the all time great players. So the fact that I followed Marty at that crazy time living in Los Angeles, only because I didn't like USC.

Bob: [7:01] Yeah.

Milton: [7:02] Now Marty comes and becomes first of the assistant coach and he was my backfield coach and we became very close friends. He, and Rosemary and the kids, in fact I used to baby-sit and some of the fellows thought that I got to playing because I did a little extra on the side.

Bob: [7:19] Vuc, lets get into the times, because I think it is interesting. There was trouble in the world then. Obviously in Europe, Hitler had shown a lot of people what he was going to do at the 36th Olympics. I mean I don't know why we didn't figure that out a lot sooner. We didn't know a whole lot about Japan and the Far East and the South Pacific, but it was a peaceful world in the United States then. The United States was coming out of the depression, everybody was looking good, feeling good, they were happy times. Can you talk about that a little bit? p.6

Milton: [7:50] Well, most of us of course remember the hard times...

Bob: [7:54] Yeah.

Milton: [7:55] ...most of all because...

Bob: [7:56] ...you grew up in that time...

Milton: [7:57] ...we grew up in that time.

Bob: [7:58] ...but you were coming out of it then.

Milton: [7:59] We were coming out of it but in the very beginning, I was there in the beginning, it was tough. There were time when people missed meals, including me. But eventually things worked out in the USA and we worked a way out of it. And thank goodness for that because those were very troubling times.

Bob: [8:17] Let's talk a little bit now about this season as Clark Shaughnessy comes. He draws you all together, you have no idea what you are embarking on here, but my goodness, how it ended up and the schedules were wonderful in those days, old traditional rivalries. [8:32] USF and Santa Clara or Oregon was the second game on the schedule. USF was not the same kind of opponent that Santa Clara was, because that was a great rivalry.

Milton: [8:42] Oh.

Bob: [8:43] All of the young people now don't realize. Stanford/Santa Clara was...

Milton: [8:45] ... had great teams.

Bob: [8:46] It wasn't Stanford/Cal, but USF had good football teams. You opened it up, and you beat them twenty-seven to nothing. Things were looking good.

Milton: [8:53] Right, and, of course, before the game, the newspapers had them favored. I think by as much as two or three , because they were supposed to have had their greatest team. And, sad to say for them, I think after losing to us they never did come back to where they thought they'd be later. But, it was quite a thrill. Did we talk p.7

about this? Because, I remember so well. We played them at Keyzar, and, when we came out of the tunnel, in our red and white: [9:12] red jerseys, white...L.

Bob: [9:27] Let's talk about that. See, because you haven't played at home yet.

Milton: [9:29] No.

Bob: [9:30] We are going to get to that next week.

Milton: [9:31] OK.

Bob: [9:31] We'll get to that...

Milton: [9:32] Al right.

Bob: [9:33] ...the next week's game. Because you are. You were playing there in Keyzar in high school.

Milton: [9:35] Played there in high school. Right.

Bob: [9:38] Where'd you go?

Milton: [9:39] Lowell High School.

Bob: [9:40] Lowell High School. Yeah.

Milton: [9:41] Lowell High School.

Bob: [9:42] And, Polytechnic, of course, which was right across the street.

Milton: [9:43] ...and our big rival. And, it was kind of nice for us high school kids to be able to play in a big like Keyzar, and, for example, the Poly/Lowell game, we've had as many as 35 to 40,000 people, which is a lot for a high school.

Bob: [9:56] Isn't that something? More than the 49ers, had when they started out. I'll tell you that.

Milton: [9:59] That's right. p.8

Bob: [10:00] That's where they started, too.

Milton: [10:00] Exactly.

Bob: [10:01] All right. Second, it's the old Pacific Coast Conference: it's the two Washington schools, the two Oregon schools, Stanford and Cal, SC and UCLA. Second week, Oregon, you are in the Pacific Coast Conference. You are playing a conference game. A little earlier than you might have. You beat them 13 to nothing. Played two games. You haven't let anybody score.

Milton: [10:20] Didn't realize that, frankly. But, Shaughnessy's favorite saying was, after every game, come to practice on Monday, "All right, boys, let's finish the job. Let's finish the job," meaning you got to win the next game. That's history. I don't know why, but all of us seem to remember these Shaughnessy-isms, if you will. [laughs] But, finish the job, and I thought about that from time to time myself.

Bob: [10:45] Vuc, I can remember, like it was yesterday, I was a nine year old boy, and my dad brought me to a game. And, I can't recall. I think it was that Oregon game. I think it was that first Stanford home game that year, because there was so much excitement about Shaughnessy and so much talk about the T-formation. No one had seen it. Nobody. We didn't have television in those days. So, nobody knew, unless you went up to Keyzar. [11:09] You weren't going to watch it on television, because there wasn't any, but everybody wanted to see that Stanford team. And, that was a big crowd for that Oregon game. I couldn't believe it as a nine year old kid, watching you guys come out with white helmets, bright red jerseys, and white football pants. They used to wear moleskins. I remember ...

Milton: [11:28] Brown.

Bob: [11:29] Yeah, brown. Yeah, and everything was dark colors.

Milton: [11:33] Dark red. p.9

Bob: [11:34] Dark red. Dark blue. Everything was... Yeah. Exactly. But tell me about those uniforms. When they opened up those cartons and showed you what you were going to wear, you couldn't believe it?

Milton: [11:42] Couldn't believe it and interestingly enough, again, Mr. Shaunnesy was so thorough. If you can believe this, we went into our locker room and dressed in our uniforms. We were thrilled but he was sitting and we had to go in a line and he looked each and every one of us over to see how those uniforms fit. [12:01] Now you wouldn't believe that he would sit through that whole time as we would go through and he would pull the pants this way, that way and so forth, until he was satisfied. And of course, then when we played our first game with USF that was... I think that's where we really got the wow boy treatment was when we came out of the tunnel, that red white stuff that the crowd went "Wow!"

[laughs]

Milton: [12:25] That's where we got Wow Boys.

Bob: [12:26] Yeah. Wow would be right. Well tell me about getting ready for this game, that first game. Clark Shaughnessy saw something in Frankie Albert: his dexterity, his quickness, his ability mentally to maybe start with a whole new concept of football. That's what the T-formation was. Talk about getting ready.

Bob: [12:44] Well that's the amazing thing about Frankie Albert. There are many great that has come since him but remember this, he was the first real T-formation . And he had to learn that by himself, with Shaughnessy's help, of course. We were lucky Frank had the quick witted and the mind to grasp it quickly and handle it. He was a passer and so forth, but I don't think we pass more than seven or eight times in a ball game and they call us this [laughs] passing team. But the big thing that Frank did so well was to conceal, hide the ball, and pass it off to the backs coming in and out and so forth.

Bob: [13:29] That's exactly, Vuc, what I wanted to get to because the whole game of football changed. It was the single wing or the double wing and used to run out of the p.10

double wing and simple formations. There was a little fake hand off here, a little fake hand off there, but the T-formation brought a whole new element to football. All of a sudden, deception I think, upset these guys, surprise them, let them figure out who has the ball. Frankie was a master at that.

Milton: [13:57] Absolutely a master. I must tell you, that's not to talk about myself because usually there's not much to say, but this did happen by sheer accident. I forgot who we were actually playing but Frank called a 32, which was the ball to the fullback over the two holds which was over guard. Well, I was cheating a little bit because I didn't have the greatest speed in the world so I got up a little closer than I should have. To make a long story short, I come running through, grab for the ball, and there's no ball there. [14:29] What happened was I beat the ball and now Frank has the ball. He doesn't expect it either but being the smart guy he is, he took it, put it behind his back and practically walked around the end.

Bob: [14:41] The first bootleg! [laughter]

Milton: [14:43] The first bootleg. That's the only thing that I can honestly say. I am responsible for the first bootleg just because I wanted to cheat up a little bit.

Bob: [14:51] And how many years did Frankie do that? He did it at Stanford and nobody could put the ball on his hip and hide it the way he could. And he did it with the 49ers, my goodness, how many times. Absolutely incredible. Now the other guys now, you had big Norm Stanley, the "big chief" at full back. Oh what a player he was.

Milton: [15:08] One of the all time greats and a wonderful man. I mean, he was a team player. Everybody liked him.

Bob: [laughs] Folks we're back now with Milton Vucinich. And Vuc, we were talking about that Oregon game 13 to nothing. You were 27-nothing over USF two weeks in a row and that 1940 season, you hadn't let anyone score. And then of course came Santa Clara and we know, gosh those old guys. I think about Eddie Forest, [Inaudible 15:37] [15:17] Beals and Kenny Cassanega and all those great players. You beat them but it was 7-6, pal. That kept the streak alive but just barely. p.11

Milton: [15:47] We were very fortunate, obviously. Like you said, there were so many former San Francisco high school players on that team. When we left out Allison Touche, he would be very upset.

Bob: [15:57] Oh yeah, he would. Yeah. We would have to stay after class, wouldn't we? [laughter]

Milton: [16:01] At least but we were very happy to get by that game.

Bob: [16:05] Then of course Washington State up there. Now that's an epic. Let's talk a little bit about how you got to Washington State actually. They do go all the way to Pullman now and play but you didn't exactly meet them half but you had a long train ride. Talk about that.

Milton: [16:19] As you know, everything was by train; no planes. Now this one was the toughest trip of all because I think we went up to Spokane and then changed trains to go from Spokane to Pullman. And that took a lot of hours and by the time we got there for the game, we were already tired out. [laughter]

Bob: [16:39] Well you weren't so tired that you couldn't beat them 26-14. Then you went down South, always a homecoming game for Stanford anytime you go to Southern . Did you go on the Old Lark or one of those old trains like that? Those sleepers. Was that a sleeper?

Milton: [16:56] It was a sleeper, kind of cute. We went on the same train that took a lot of Stanford rooters down. So, while we were on the train was kind of fun, not our teammates, but our classmates would come by and visit with us and wish us luck. It was a fun trip.

Bob: [17:12] Now, Coach Shaughnessy, as you politely called him, he didn't want you guys in that club car. They used to call it a club car. Didn't they?

Milton: [17:19] Yes, they did, [laughter] but not by Mr. Shaughnessy. It was called "no car." [laughter] p.12

Bob: [17:25] Well, you beat the Trojans in Stanford Stadium 21-7. Then, down south where UCLA beat them 20-14. Then, Washington, at home, beat them 20-10. You're on your way to an undefeated season. Hadn't been one of those until you go back to like 1905, pal.

Milton: [17:43] That was a thrill. Mr. Shaughnessy used to say, after every game, "Finish the job, boys, finish the job." Well, that meant we've got to beat the team ahead of us.

Bob: [17:52] You beat Oregon State 28-14. Then, of course, went against the Bears, in the big game, and, boy, those were good Cal teams in those days. This was tough going. You're looking at an undefeated season. You're looking at a championship of the Pacific Coast Conference. And, you're looking at going to the Rose Bowl. How about that one?

Milton: [18:11] Well, of course, that was the thrill, and everybody was up for the game, obviously, as were the Cal people. So, as it turned out, we were lucky enough to beat them, and, then, look forward, of course, to the Rose Bowl.

Bob: [18:22] Now, going so many players from southern California, and I think of that backfield. We really haven't talked about all of the guys: Frankie, of course. Frankie Albert was from Glendale. That was his hometown, and he had his old buddy Jess Watson who was playing for USC. "Watty the Body" we called Johnny. [?] [laughter] He was playing for SC at that time. [18:41] So, for Frankie, going to the Rose Bowl was a homecoming. was a Chicago guy, and the great Norm Stanley, the "Big Chief." What a backfield, Voc!

Milton: [18:51] Well, it's been said that could be one of the all time great college backfields. Don't forget, of course, Kmetovic who was our speed burner. Interesting enough, Hugh Gallarneau was actually a little faster than Kmetovic. People didn't realize that. Gallarneau was an amazing football player. Of course, he showed that, when he went with the pros.

Bob: [19:10] Vuc, you had a great Nebraska team, and I used to visit with Herman Rorig. He was one of their great players on that team. Herman later became a great p.13 football official and was supervisor of the officials in the big ten for a number of years. Great guy. And, he remembers almost every play in that game. He knows what the score was. It was Stanford 21 Nebraska t13, an undefeated season: 10 and O. There's been nothing like it sense.

Milton: [19:37] Well, all of us that were part of that team are very proud of that fact, and we used to get together for reunions and talk about it. Let's face it, we were very proud.

Bob: [19:47] Well, let's talk a little bit more about Clark Shaughnessy and putting together the . The whole game of football, we touched on this a little bit earlier. The whole game of football changed. It went to a game of deception, hiding the football, and we talked too about Tiny Thornhill had great success, of course with those Wow Boy teams, back in the '30s. [20:08] Then, he never had another winning season, until Shaughnessy came in 1940. Stanford got back on the track, went to the Rose Bowl, and won, but they introduced that team. And, Shaughnessy introduced the T formation, a whole new chapter in football.

Milton: [20:24] It's amazing, when you think about it. I was a sophomore that year when Shaughnessy came. By the time I was a senior, just about every team in the conference was using the T formation. In other words, they didn't wait long to change. [20:39] Prior to that was what they called the old single wing, which I don't want to describe to you, but it was set up more on the basis of hitting the center of the line or inside and make four or five yards. The long play wasn't part of that system.

Bob: [20:54] Well, [laughter] I went to San Mateo High School, and Wag Jorgensen, the great all American from St. Mary's was our football coach, and we ran the single wing. So, you can't tell me a whole lot about the single wing that I don't know, and I was a quarterback: quarterback in the single wing is not like the quarter back in the T-formation, Vuc.

Milton: [21:13] That is a position that I wouldn't want to be a quarter back in single wing. You never got to carry the ball, but you were lucky enough to be able to block everybody. You were the blocking back. p.14

Bob: [21:24] Well the fun part is you had the trap block on the off side guard. That was the most fun, because he very seldom saw you coming.

Milton: [21:30] That's right, that was really the only fun you had in the whole game.

Bob: [21:34] Vuc, it was was history-making and the whole country took note of it at that time, and it had to be a pretty heady experience for a young guy.

Milton: [21:42] It was. To think as I said, as a freshman our team has lost all but one game, as a sophomore we won them all. It was quite a treat, it was wonderful.

Bob: [21:55] Now in the Rose bowl, Gallarneau, a great run in the football, and then actually turned the whole game around with a return. Came all the way over to the near sideline, saw that shut off. Turned it around, went all the way to the other side of the field. It was one the great runs in Rose Bowl history. Took it all the way into the end zone. That turned the game in the favor of Stanford.

Milton: [22:16] Let me tell you something about that run. I give Pete full credit for the run of course, but when Pete went to the left as I remember then reversed his field, coming right. It set up angles for blocks. Our team made some great blocks, just cutting the people down because we had the proper angle. With Pete's great run, he had some help on that, believe me because there were some great, great blocks being made.

Bob: [22:44] Now those guys, dear friends of yours, and all of us when you talk about Albert, Stanley, Kmetovic and Gallarneau. Those are names that we're never going to forget are we?

Milton: [22:54] I would think that, certainly Stanford will never forget them, but as many people have said, one of the great back fields of all time.

Bob: [23:03] Now Vuc you stayed on in school. You were the class of '43. Of course you're playing in the Rose Bowl on January 1st, 1941. You go to school that next year. Then for a lot of young folks, some of us live through this, all of a sudden on December 7, 1941 the world changed. But, it didn't change drastically overnight. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. There was a war on, all of a sudden we were in war in both sides p.15

of the world, both in Europe and the Pacific. But, you did finish school, talk about a little bit.

Milton: [23:36] That was really a wonderful break for us. If you were say a junior or going into your senior year they allowed you to graduate and then go into service. Actually, you joined the service, like in my case joined the navy program. So we're in the navy and still at Stanford. Then the minute we graduated, about three days later we were back in Chicago in midshipman school finishing the rest of our training.

Bob: [24:05] Vuc, you'll remember this as I do. It was interesting because a lot of fellows who were just behind you who started at Stanford ended up in a Navy program and went over to Cal. I think of Dick Maddigan, I think of Fred Bunch, all kinds of guys who went over there. I think of Babe Higgins. Babe Higgins was the only guy in history, and there will never be another one, Babe Higgins lettered in both football and basketball at both Stanford and Cal. [24:36] Of course that '46 team, Maddigan. Fred Bunch came back, he had been injured in the war. He took a hit in the jaw, old Jaker went. You remember Jake as I do. He made a special mask for Fred so that he could continue to play football. He not only played at Stanford but he went in and played in the NFL for a number of years. But, these are fellows that went back and forth across the Bay. They played for both Stanford and Cal. George Quist, don't ever forget George Quist.

Milton: [25:00] What a great player. Remember Bill Jocelyn? You know what happened to him He came to Stanford and became ineligible, because going back there was some rule that you couldn't visit with an alumnus or something. To make a long story short he stayed at Stanford but the war came. He went to the Marine Corps and they sent him over to Berkeley. Well when he was at Berkeley he played for Cal against Stanford. Meantime, interestingly enough, before all of this happened, the Stanford football team voted him a block S because they knew he would have earned it had he been able to play.

Bob: [25:38] Yep.

Milton: [25:38] Now he goes to Cal and actually earns his Block S and to go on further, Bill remained in the Marine Corps and retired as a major general. p.16

Bob: [25:46] Isn't that a story.

Milton: [25:47] Yes, and quite a guy. I visited with him not too long ago.

Bob: [25:50] Oh boy.

Milton: [25:51] And he's in great shape and we had a wonderful visit.

Bob: [25:54] They'll never be another Frankie Albert. And of course he made the movie afterwards, gosh I forget the name of the movie, "Going to Stanford, " or whatever it was, "Stanford for You, " or something like that. Driving his silly old car and hitchhiking from Glendale up to, and I always remember there were two guys in that film that I always recognized, Forrest Tucker and Lloyd Nolan. I don't know that they even got a mention. They did later in life,

Milton: [26:17] There was another one too, Lloyd Bridges.

Bob: [26:19] Yeah, yeah. Lloyd Bridges was in there.

Milton: [26:21] He was also in there.

Bob: [26:23] How about that, what fun.

Milton: [26:25] Oh they did and talk about Albert, you know, everyone knows him as a great player, as he was, but more than that he was just great morale builder. I mean he had a way of pepping you up and if you were behind, you didn't know it as far as Frank was concerned because you knew he was going to come up with something and we're going to win the ball game. I always respected him for that as much, as well as his physical attributes.

Bob: [26:51] Vuc, I always remember, as a young kid, the euphoric feeling after the war in 1946 and Tony Moribito lived on Cabrillo. We weren't very good in Spanish in those days, we always called it Cabrillo down in Burlingame and he had the 49ers. And he started the Forty Niners with Frankie Albert at quarterback and a lot of those Santa Clara guys, Eddie Forrest and Kenny Casanega and Beales and Stanford guys like Bruno Banducci, and , all guys that you'd played with. That was the start of the p.17

NFL, it was the , American Football Conference then, but that's what brought the NFL to the west coast.

Milton: [27:29] You know, that was one of my disappointments. I would have liked to have a tryout with the 49ers. What had happened, I got out of the service, oh, maybe a month early, had the points, whatever and I had been drafted by the Bears. And so I played the last few games with the Bears and signed me for the following year. Well, that kept me from, no guarantee I would have made the team, but I would have liked to have tried out for it.

Bob: [27:53] Yeah, playing with the Bears was fun because, was Hugh Gallarneau playing in the NFL then, and Hugh of course, with Hart, Schaffner and Marx back there in Chicago, I used to visit with him all the time when I was back there, what a great guy he was, too.

Milton: [28:06] Not only a great guy, but he was really a terrific football player. As time went on, people recognized that with the Bears, he was one of the all time greats. And awfully nice to me when I was back there. He took me around to introduce him to his friends and his fans. I can't think now, I'm getting old, but famous drug people had their home office in Chicago. I can't think of the name of it now, but he invited me to the, they had a party, and he invited me to come with him to their home. What were the.

Bob: [28:40] I don't know, Rexall.

Milton: [28:41] Yeah, Rexall, let's call it Rexall.

Bob: [laughter] [28:43] We'll throw a name in there. No editing here, folks.

Milton: [28:45] But anyhow, we arrived there and he introduced me to Mrs. Rexall and I see the man standing there and I put my hand out to shake hands with Mr. Rexall, turns out that he was the butler. So, Gallarneau says, "I can't take you anyplace Vucinich."

Bob: [29:04] Now a memory about Al Cole, an outstanding football player killed in the war, there were a lot of those guys through that period of time. p.18

Milton: [29:13] Al Cole was a fine football player and a wonderful man. He was a fraternity brother of mine so I got to know him quite well and it was a shocker. You know, what happened with Al was he served overseas as a pilot and then came back after the war, he was still in the service and was taking somebody up on a training flight and crashed.

Bob: [29:34] Oh boy.

Milton: [29:34] So that was the sad thing, he'd gone through everything and then died when he came home.

Bob: [29:38] Vuc, you look back on your heritage, being a part of the authorship of one of the greatest chapters in Stanford football history; undefeated, Rose Bowl, victory over Nebraska, one of the most legendary teams in the whole history of . It has to be a wonderfully warm memory for you.

Milton: [29:58] It really is and the wonderful thing about it is, everyone on that team was really nice people. Everybody liked, there were no fatheads on the team. There was nobody that was jealous of somebody else's success. Everybody truly liked each other and we had fun together.

Bob: [30:17] And since then you've become a golf pro at California Golf Club up in South City and you only play once a day, don't you?

Milton: [30:23] That's all. Just once a day. Then I get tired after that. [laughter]

Bob: [30:27] That is Milt Vucinich and what fun talking about old times in Stanford football. And if you're really interested in one of the great years in the whole history of Stanford sports, take a look at 1940 and that '41 Rose Bowl team. It's one of the best stories ever told in the whole history of Stanford athletics. [30:47] Vucinich, before we close this, I want to reflect a little bit because the guy we both love, a teammate of yours, great guy, number 45. His name was Chuck Taylor. He was an All-American, played for the Miami Seahawks. I'll tell you what else he did and you know it as well as I do. He drove a landing craft onto Utah Beach on D-day, June 6th, 1944. p.19

[31:14] And of course we're talking about All-American, Chuck Taylor, who would later become at Stanford. He went to the Rose Bowl as a player, as a coach in 1951, and as an athletic director. And there was no finer man ever created in this world better than Chuck Taylor.

Vuchinich: [31:34] I certainly agree with that, Bob. In all the years that I knew Chuck, I never heard him once say an unkind word about another person. it just wasn't in him. Everybody liked Chuck and for very good reason and I was very proud to have had his friendship.

Bob: [31:51] He was such a great player and then he came in. He followed Marty Schwartz and Marty was a very popular guy and ran a little hard luck there in '48, '49. And Chuck comes along in that '51 season and he has Garrick Curcorian as a quarterback. He has Bill McColl, an all-time, All-American as a receiver. Harry Ukasia of the first star mania ever to score in Rose Bowl. [laughs] He also played football there, too. But he's one of my all-time favorite guys. But Chuck had a way with players, a way of inspiring young people to play and that group still holds together.

Milton: [32:32] Being part of Chuck Taylor's group was also very nice. They still meet together over the years and they remember good old Chuck and so on. It was a fine group of people.

Bob: [32:42] And then Chuck of course, as athletic director, found John Ralston. Now that was interesting, went across the line and picked the Cal guy coming down from Utah State. Boy, did he pick a winner with John. He knew something obviously about football coaching and inspiring young people.

Milton: [32:59] Well it's a good thing because John Ralston did a fine job for Stanford. Believe me, we were lucky to, I see we as Stanford, were lucky to have him.

Bob: [33:08] Yep. Well I kind of think that the Stanford athletic Hall of Fame ought to have a special wing for Chuck Taylor and maybe even that wouldn't be big enough, huh? p.20

Milton: [33:15] Listen, it's amazing. When Jeff came to Stanford as athletic director, Stanford was kind of on the downhill and so forth. But all of a sudden, the minute Chuck got there, the alumni rallied around Chuck. They all liked Chuck and because of that, the alumni pitched in and helped and got the help that Stanford needed. Then they went on to the Rose Bowl but you can honestly say that it was Chuck Taylor's doing.

Bob: [33:44] Well, Chuck came up from San Jose along with his old pal, Pete Kmetovic, and two of them served the university for, oh my, how many years. Great memories and great to share them with Milt Vucinich. [Whispering]

[34:01]

Transcription by CastingWords