Mary Jo White

February 8, 2013; March 1, 2013; July 7, 2015

Recommended Transcript of Interview with Mary Jo White (Feb. 8, 2013; Mar. 1, 2013; July Citation 7, 2015), https://abawtp.law.stanford.edu/exhibits/show/mary-jo-white.

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ABA Senior Lawyers Division

Women Trailblazers in the Law

ORAL HISTORY

of

MARY JO WHITE

Interviewers: Mary Beth Hogan Barbara Jones

Dates of Interviews:

February 8, 2013 March 1, 2013 July 7, 2015 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 1 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYBETH HOGAN: I'm here with Mary Jo white for the 2 women Trailblazers Program interview. This is tape 1 and we 3 ate going to begin now. 4 Mary Jo, you were born in Kansas city, Missouri, can 5 you 6 MARYJO WHITE: what I remember most about it is just 7 kind of the physical plant of our house and where I went to 8 school and played. I was there until the middle of fifth grade 9 and then we moved to McLean, Virginia. 10 I have recently gone back to Kansas city for the first 11 time since I left there when I was 10 to see the All-star game 12 and I didn't recognize a whole lot other than my house which I 13 did go back to and see, and see my old school. so, most of my 14 childhood memories that I really remember date a little bit 15 later after we moved to McLean, Virginia. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you know why your family moved to 17 McLean, Virginia? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 19 My father was a lawyer for what was then known as the 20 Health Education and welfare Department in the social security 21 Administration and he got a promotion basically to be on the 22 appeals council of the social security Administration which is 23 based in or was based in Washington, D.C., which McLean is a 24 suburb of Washington. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: You said you went to school through SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 2 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 fifth grade; was it a public school or a private school? 2 MARYJO WHITE: It was the middle of fifth grade, we 3 left in the middle of fifth grade or a third of the way through 4 the fifth grade. It was public school. It was a school that 5 was about three blocks from our house. I suppose my most 6 distinct memories of that school was there was a school 7 carnival every year and I met Roger Maris when he played for 8 the Kansas City -- I guess Athletics then -- who came to that 9 carnival and autographed a baseball. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: And did you have any brothers or 11 sisters? 12 MARYJO WHITE: I have one brother, Carl Monk, who is 13 five years older than I am. 14 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did he go to that same school? 15 MARYJO WHITE: He did go to that same school. He was 16 in high school when we left there but he did go to that same 17 school. 18 MARYBETH HOGAN: And did he go to a public high 19 school as well? 20 MARYJO WHITE: He did. He did. He went to what was 21 known as Central High school and I think it was in the era of 22 desegregation and he actually had to ride a bus to that school 23 because of the efforts of the school system to integrate the 24 schools in Kansas city. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: So did you live in a white SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 3 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 neighborhood? 2 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I am just trying to think -- 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. Page 1 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 4 MARYJO WHITE: -- but I think it was probably 5 exclusively white, actually. 6 MARYBETH HOGAN: And was your grammar school all 7 white? 8 MARYJO WHITE: I think it was all white. I can't 9 tell you for sure, actually, but I think it probably was all 10 white. You know, it pulled from the surrounding neighborhood 11 which was, I'm pretty sure, all white. I don't have -- I would 12 like to think I wouldn't remember if it was integrated but I 13 think it was probably all white. 14 MARYBETH HOGAN: And you mentioned that your father 15 is a lawyer? 16 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: And at what stage in his career did 18 this promotion occur? 19 MARYJO WHITE: He would have been -- let me think 20 about that, fairly -- I would say he possibly would have been a 21 lawyer for the government in Kansas city for probably about 22 eight or 10 years and I think that was probably his -- I should 23 know this but probably his first job out of law school. He was 24 in the Navy in world war II and then he went to George 25 Washington University Law school. I think his first job was SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 4 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 this one. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: Was he in combat in world war II? 3 MARYJO WHITE: He didn't see much combat. I think he 4 was based in Italy. I think the ships he was on were shot at a 5 time or so but he was not in actual active combat that I know 6 of. He didn't talk much about those experiences in the war so 7 it could be that he was. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: And how about your mom? Did she 9 work outside the home? 10 MARYJO WHITE: she worked outside the home. Before 11 she was married she worked at the -- in fact I think she met my 12 father in Washington, D.C. when they both were in Washington, 13 D.C. she worked for the commerce DeRartment as some kind of an 14 assistant to a researcher, I think, for about a year. And then 15 when my father went off to the war which would have been, I 16 guess, 1942, my mother moved back to Fayette, Missouri, where 17 she was brought up and went to college actually there too, 18 central college there. And then my brother arrived at some 19 point in the sequence and so she really stayed there for the 20 duration of the war until my father came back. And then they 21 moved to Kansas city. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: so your mom also went to college? 23 MARYJO WHITE: she did. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: And your father, you mentioned he 25 went to GWLaw school. where did he attend college? SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 5 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: The University of Oklahoma. Both of 2 my parents were actually born in Oklahoma. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: But they didn't meet in Oklahoma? 4 MARY JO WHITE: No. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: They met in D.C.? 6 MARYJO WHITE: They met in D.C. They met in D.C. My 7 mother decided to go -- I think this is right -- with one her 8 girlfriends, after they graduated from central college, to see Page 2 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 9 the world, and went to Washington, D.C. and got jobs and then 10 she met my father there. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: she sounds like she was adventurous. 12 was she? 13 MARYJO WHITE: I think then she was at least. I 14 mean, she didn't -- you know, she -- after my brother was born 15 and I was born she did not work, she took care of us until we 16 were ~rown and then worked from time to time and got part-time 17 jobs 1n the library in McLean, Virginia and so forth. As a 18 young woman, girl, whichever, both, I guess. she was a very 19 poRular cheerleader, tennis player. Think she had a very happy 20 life in Fayette, Missouri, actually. And, yo~ know, obviously 21 struck out for Washington, D.C. from Fayette. Fayette is a 22 tiny, tiny town, 2,000 people maybe. so, pretty adventuresome 23 then. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you know your grandparents? 25 MARYJO WHITE: I knew my grandmothers, both. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 6 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 My mother's mother lived in Fayette, Missouri which we 2 were just talking about. she actually lost her husband and my 3 mother lost her father in the plague of the flu epidemic of 4 1918. so, my grandmother, who also went to college, then 5 became a school teacher and she, you know, was obviously 6 part -- at the time it was during the depression as well and so 7 she would sometimes be paid in furniture and food and things 8 like that. she had four children including my mother, actually 9 lost a baby also in the 1918 flu epidemic at the same time. 10 so, my mother never knew her father at all. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Your mother never knew her father. 12 MARY JO WHITE: Right. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: so she was just a tiny baby when -­ 14 MARYJO WHITE: I think she was five days old when he 15 died so she never did. And my father's father, who was a 16 lawyer and actually a prosecutor at one point in his life, was 17 killed in a car accident when my father was 15. so, I never 18 knew him. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: when you think about your 20 grandmothers do you think about any influence they had over 21 your life? 22 MARYJO WHITE: I was closer to my mother's mother and 23 I always thought -- my mother used to always say that I -- I 24 don't know if this is true -- that I got my brains from my 25 grandmother. I don't know how many brains I have or don't have SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 7 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 or where they came from but I always thought she was the 2 smartest person I ever knew. And so when I got into, I guess 3 it was college and I was studying psychology and one course I 4 had was measuring people's IQs, I once traveled back to Fayette 5 and gave her the IQ test. 6 MARYBETH HOGAN: And can you reveal the results? 7 MARYJO WHITE: I can reveal the results: 151. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: Pretty high. 9 MARYJO WHITE: That was pretty high. That was pretty 10 high. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. 12 MARYJO WHITE: so, she was a very impressive person, 13 an important person in my life, really. she would stay with us Page 3 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 14 for months at a time in Kansas city. she passed away when I 15 was, I guess, first year in law school so that would have been 16 1971. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did she like baseball? 18 MARYJO WHITE: she did like baseball. she was a 19 rabid st. Louis cardinals fan and I remember in her bedroom she 20 had one of those old radios you see, you know, antique radios 21 you now see? she listened to the cardinals games every night, 22 basically. And then I remember when she went to her first 23 baseball game in Kansas city they had a team, the Kansas City 24 Athletics, when we still lived there. she said she wanted to 25 see three things: A home run, a double play, and a fight. And SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 8 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 she saw all of those. And one thing that I remember 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: In one game? 3 MARYJO WHITE: In one game. one game. 4 And how she knew this from listening on the radio I 5 have never known but I remember that game very distinctly 6 because I sort of took it with me thereafter. You know how 7 fans think the ball is going out of the park? And I would 8 think oh, it is going out of the park, and the fans did too. 9 she said no, no, no, watch the fielder, then you will know how 10 far the ball is going.? 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: And you've taught me that. 12 MARYJO WHITE: I've taught you that. And many other 13 people, actually. It may reduce the excitement I guess but it 14 is good to know. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: I've taught my children that. 16 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: Thanks to your grandmother .. what 18 was her name? 19 MARYJO WHITE: Ruth. Ruth King. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: King was her last name? 21 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. 23 Now, what year was it that your family moved to 24 McLean? 25 MARYJO WHITE: 1958. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 9 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYBETH HOGAN: And other than that move which was 2 obviously a big move halfway across the country, did you travel 3 at all as a family? 4 MARYJO WHITE: we did. we traveled by car. 5 I remember one trip in particular, probably about 1957 6 or 1958 going to California. we traveled frequently between 7 Kansas city and Fayette where my grandmother was. we traveled 8 to Oklahoma where my father's relatives were. we took a trip, 9 probably the same trip and saw the Grand canyon and so we had a 10 lot of driving vacations. It tended to be to the west but we 11 also visited my father's sister who actually lived in the 12 Washington, D.C. area. she was married to a general in the 13 Army based in the Washington, D.C. area so every summer we 14 would take car trips. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: As a girl do you recall thinking 16 about what you wanted to be when you grew up? 17 MARYJO WHITE: My most distinct recollection is when 18 I was five years old it occurred to me that my father left the Page 4 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 19 house every day and went to work and my mother did all the work 20 in the home and then I did not want to do that. I wanted to 21 work. At what? I don't remember -- I actually can't remember 22 of what I thought I wanted to be even. I think as a pre-teen 23 or teenager I think I had in mind to be a doctor. one of my 24 father's brothers was a doctor. Everyone else in my father's 25 family was a lawyer and I kind of wanted to buck the family SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 tradition. But, from age 5 I was going to work. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: And did you ever feel any 3 restrictions or a sense of limitation because you were a girl 4 in terms of thinking about your profession later on? 5 MARYJO WHITE: No. 6 MARY BETH HOGAN: No. 7 MARYJO WHITE: Actually, I did not. I mean I -- you 8 know, you have to think back on that because surely the answer 9 to that should be yes, right? But I can't -- 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Not necessarily. 11 MARYJO WHITE: -- but I can't think that I did. 12 one surprising thing occurred I guess in that vein 13 which was my father always commented to relatives what a great 14 lawyer I would be. And then after I got married in 1970 my 15 husband and I came to New York, I was in graduate school for a 16 year.in psychology and then the went to Columbia Law school. 17 so, my father was still living then and so when I decided to go 18 to law school I decided to call him up, I figured he would be 19 thrilled that I was going to law school. And what he said -­ 20 what he said was something like well, that's great, but you'll 21 never practice, meaning that he assumed I would be in the home, 22 raise children and never practice. And he was probably the 23 most supportive person in my whole life of me in terms of my 24 self-image and self-worth and all that. But it was still kind 25 of a: Gee. okay. Kind of a real revelation to me because he SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 was very insistent that we both, really my brother and I, get 2· all As. AB-plus would be a disaster. 3 I did pretty well in school and when I finally bit the 4 bullet and went to law school I figured, oh, he is going to be 5 really happy about this. And he was not unhappy but it was 6 like, but I'd never practice. so, it was kind of an 7 interesting lack of understanding and insight on his part that 8 I was surprised by. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: How that could be? 10 MARYJO WHITE: Right, how that could be. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yeah. 12 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you know whether he worked with 14 women in his government jobs? 15 MARYJO WHITE: He did. And the women really liked 16 working for him. I mean, he was very, I think, supportive of 17 the careers of young women and older women. I mean, I am not 18 distinguishing young from old. some of his better work 19 friends, he had many -- actually he had many work friends, men 20 and women, but a number of them were women but my guess is that 21 he was a very good boss for women. I don't know that he ever 22 had a woman boss but I know that he was very good in working 23 with professional women. Page 5 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: Right, so he was used to having 25 professional women around but that is very interesting that SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 12 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: -- to think of you in that way. 3 MARYJO WHITE: It could be he more identified me with 4 what my mother had done. You know, I guess if I had to reason 5 it might be that. 6 MARYBETH HOGAN: And were your parents together until 7 one of them passed away? 8 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. My father died in 1989 and so 9 they were married from 19, I think 41 or 42, until then. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: How old was he when he died? 11 MARY JO WHITE: 73. 12 MARYBETH HOGAN: And your mother passed away more 13 recently? 14 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, I think in 2010. she was almost 15 92. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, think back to when you were 17 growing up, and I know it is hard going back before 10 years 18 old but think now maybe middle school, high school you were 19 obviously doing well in school academically; what else excited 20 you when you were that age? 21 MARYJO WHITE: sports. Football. Rabid baseball fan 22 always. 23 something I didn't mention, my father had a second job 24 in Kansas city selling tickets to the Kansas city Blues which 25 was the New York Yankees farm team. So, I became not only a SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 13 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 baseball fame at age 5 but a Yankee fan from age 5. so, which 2 I still am a rabid Yankee fan. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: we will get to more of that. 4 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, but basically, you know, I was a 5 very good student. I didn't -- I wasn't an obsessive student, 6 however. I mean, I would be really -- through college I would 7 study the night before and cram, I wasn't sort of what I call a 8 do-gooder student who sort of kept up every day and so forth. 9 I enjoyed school but it was a pain, too, so it wasn't my whole 10 life. And mostly it was really just sports. I was both 11 playing them and watching them. 12 I suppose the most vivid memory I have of outside 13 activities I follow, because my parents were very interested in 14 politics -- not being in politics but very outward looking 15 about, cared who became president a great deal. You know, I 16 remember them, I suppose one of my earliest memories and this 17 has really got to go way back, are two memories about Harry 18 Truman. I think we had a TV and that would have been one of 19 the first TVs that existed probably in whatever it was, 1952 I 20 guess, when Eisenhower was elected and Truman was finishing his 21 term as president. I remember how proud my parents were. 22 Truman was actually from Independence, Missouri which was 23 actually -- we lived first in Kansas city and then Independence 24 which was kind of a suburb of Kansas city. And then the other 25 memory I have from back then was when he came back from SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 14 Page 6 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Washington, by train, to the Independence depot, and we went to 2 greet him there along with a lot of other people from the area. 3 so, I paid attention to politics, who was president. 4 Kind of interested in a history, really, of the presidents, not 5 so much the history of the country because I was not a big 6 history buff in that way. I was interested in the people that 7 made the country and, in particular, presidents. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you have a favorite president 9 when you were growing up? 10 MARYJO WHITE: John F. Kennedy. You know, obviously 11 in what, it would be tenth grade I guess when he was 12 assassinated but clearly I was in the Kennedy-mania. I think a 13 lot of people -- children were as well as adults. I think he 14 really excited the country. 15 I remember when he was nominated, that would have been 16 from McLean after we moved there and how close that was. My 17 parents were sort of hanging on every balloting that went 18 around and so, but obviously John F. Kennedy was eventually 19 nominated. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: You mentioned you played sports. 21 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: so this would have been pre Title 9? 23 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: And I'm curious about what kinds of 25 sports programs the schools had at that time. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 15 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: None I would say, basically, for 2 women. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you not play on school teams? 4 MARYJO WHITE: I didn't play -- let's see if I can 5 remember this. In grade school I did not play on school teams. 6 In high school I played on the basketball team and the tennis 7 team. I did not play on the softball team because I had sort 8 of one year of what I would call excessive femininity in my 9 life and the uniforms were ugly and so I didn't play softball. 10 I played softball on my college sorority team but I would have 11 played, I think, had I been allowed to, in little league. 12 We had a little league in McLean. There was a little 13 league field a quarter of a mile from our house where I would 14 watch games and was quite, quite frustrated that girls then 15 were not allowed to play. I think little league opened to 16 girls in 1970 -- which is the year. I think that's right. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: I think a little later. 18 MARYJO WHITE: A little later? 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: Right around there, yes.? 20 MARYJO WHITE: Right around then, yes. so, after I 21 was out of college, basically. so. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did your brother play little league? 23 MARYJO WHITE: No. My brother did teach me to throw 24 a baseball and, as I say, I throw a baseball not like.a girl 25 because of him and I am very grateful to him. But, in our SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 16 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 family the athletic genes were on the women's side, not the 2 men's side. My father and my brother -- my brother played 3 tennis and does play tennis but they were the opposite of 4 athletic, and my mother and I were pretty athletic. Page 7 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: Sometimes I think about the impact 6 of playing sports on girls growing up and whether that's 7 helpful later on in life and I am wondering if you have any 8 thoughts about that. 9 MARYJO WHITE: I think it is enormously helpful not 10 just to play sports but to actually, genuinely love sports and 11 care about them as a spectator as well and I think it's -- and 12 I say this when I, you know, talk to women, professionals, that 13 one of the things I think has made my life the easier in an 14 often male-dominated professional world is how much I love 15 sports and know about sports and it just makes for very easy 16 conversation, it is an ice breaker and it is all genuine and 17 sincere, it is not a contrived answer. 18 so, I don't feel impure about that, it is just I feel 19 like I am fortunate that I happen to be a real sports lover. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: And have you found that teamwork 21 aspects of sports to be relevant or transferable to the 22 professional setting? 23 MARYJO WHITE: I certainly believe in teamwork in the 24 professional settin9 and I think people need to be very careful 25 that their jobs don t become too much about them no matter what SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 17 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 the job is but it is about the team, it is about the client, it 2 is about, you know, the product that you produce together. I 3 don't know that I would trace that to playing sports or not. 4 I'm not so sure, but maybe. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, when you moved to McLean did 6 you attend public schools there as well? 7 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you recall what schools you went 9 to in McLean? 10 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I went to elementary school or 11 what was called elementary school then, at Kent Gardens 12 Elementary school, it was, you know, basically five blocks from 13 our house so I walked to school. Then I went to Longfellow 14 Intermediate school for, I guess seventh and eighth grade, and 15 that required a very short bus ride from our house. And then I 16 went to McLean High school. All public schools, all co-ed, and 17 that was within walking distance of our house as well. 18 My most distinct memory of moving to McLean and the 19 school system was that as good a school system as I think 20 Kansas city actually had also, I was about two years behind 21 when I went to the McLean public schools having moved from 22 Kansas city public schools. And I remember just, you know, I 23 didn't know what a fraction was, right, and everybody else was 24 like -- I think I got my first and only Fon a test when I 25 first moved to McLean, Virginia. My father then taught me SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 18 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 fractions and the next test I think I got a hundred on actually 2 because he was a pretty good teacher of fractions, I guess. 3 But it was a very -- that was a tense time for a 4 little while because you basically had to -- I had always been 5 a very good student and then I am two years behind, basically, 6 in the fifth grade. And I think I caught up in a half year and 7 then, you know, everything was fine but it was kind of probably 8 the best thing that ever happened to me in one sense because I 9 think the school system was superior and stayed that way. I Page 8 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 10 think the public schools in McLean were extraordinarily strong. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did your brother have that same 12 experience? 13 MARYJO WHITE: My brother was -- he was in high 14 school when he came to McLean and he didn't do as well 1n 15 school. He -- obviously he graduated but he was not -- he was 16 never quite the student I was in terms of grades, I think in 17 part because my father would harangue him for not getting all 18 As and I watched that as a young child and thought, no, I think 19 I'll avoid that criticism and I think that transition was hard 20 for him. I mean, he was older. I assume McLean High school · 21 was at least two years ahead of central High school and so he 22 did not do that well academically then. when he went to 23 college, law school, he did much better. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: How was it, do you recall, socially? 25 Moving? was that difficult for you? SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 19 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: I think I was young enough so the· 2 answer is no. I mean, there were kids in my neighborhood my 3 age in Kansas city and Independence and there were kids my age 4 in McLean. so, I don't recall that being difficult at all, 5 actually. 6 MARYBETH HOGAN: when you mentioned the school 7 earlier you mentioned you made a point of saying that they were 8 all co-ed. Is that something that you think has had an impact 9 on you, you went to co-ed schools? 10 MARYJO WHITE: well, having never gone to a non co-ed 11 school it is a little hard to say. our son has gone to both 12 co-ed and all boys schools and I guess that when we moved to 13 New York and sort of went through the -- once he was born and 14 thinking about schools for him I certainly had a bias for co-ed 15 schools. I think I thought it was more like the real world. I 16 certainly have read about and can credit that there are a lot 17 of advantages to same sex schools but I never attended one so I 18 can't really say. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: so, before we leave high school is 20 there anything else about your childhood that sort of stands 21 out in your mind as being influential to you in your later 22 decisions of career? 23 MARYJO WHITE: I was a bit of a politico in high 24 school. I was officer of the class and was in something called 25 Keyettes, that was all women, kind of a -- it wasn't a sorority SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 20 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 but a service organization but kind of prestigious. I ran for 2 office and won running for office each time and then I kind of 3 gave that up. I don't know whether I soured on it or whatever 4 but that was a phase of my life that I didn't come back to, I 5 think. 6 Let's see. Otherwise, no, I think I still, you know, 7 to this day probably dating from when I was 5 I have always 8 thought it was very important for me to work and I have always 9 enjoyed work. when I was younger I always thought I would do 10 something kind of good because I had a pretty positive 11 self-image I think from my parents but not -- you can't sort of 12 point to where you would say I was ambitious for something in 13 particular, I don't think. But I wanted to do well, be well 14 thought of, and always work. Page 9 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 15 I had a theory -- still have the theory -- women in my 16 family, really both sides and going back at least to my -- and 17 this is unusual, my great grandmother also went to college and 18 that's really unusual and -- 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: what year would that have been? 20 MARYJO WHITE: I don't even know. obviously the 21 1800s sometime. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you know where she went? 23 MARYJO WHITE: I think she went to a place called 24 Jefferson city college in Missouri but I'm not positive about 25 that. And essentially my grandmother, when she had to work SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 21 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 after her husband died, none of them worked after they were 2 married and this is of course my father's sister and others who 3 went to college. And I think they always had difficulties sort 4 of adjusting to that life exclusively. You know, they would 5 have kind of depression problems and things of that sort that I 6 decided when I was, you know, a child, that maybe one can avoid 7 all of that and have more fun by working. so, that sort of 8 continued through, I think, my high school years as well. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: And this is getting a little ahead 10 in our interview but I am wondering whether that sort of 11 strength of vision around working ever wavered for you. Like, 12 for example, there came a time when you had a child, became a 13 mother. There came a time when you were certainly financially 14 secure? Did you ever think about not working? 15 MARYJO WHITE: No. You know, do I look back and 16 think did I make a mistake in that regard? I think everybody 17 has to decide this for themselves. when our son was born I was 18 38 years old, I think, so I had been working a long time then, 19 I was a partner at Debevoise & Plimpton and it was so much of 20 my identity that I was afraid I would, you know, drop my son 21 out the window one day if I stayed home exclusively. Not 22 really, but. But I never really entertained the idea of not 23 working and I still don't, actually, and I'm 65, so. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: That's good to hear. 25 All right, let's take a short break and we will move SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 22 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 on.? 2 MARYJO WHITE: Good. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: So, Mary Jo, you finished high 4 school and you applied to colleges. Did you go straight to 5 college? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 7 MARYBETH HOGAN: How many colleges did you apply to? 8 Do you recall? 9 MARYJO WHITE: I think I applied to two; William & 10 Mary where I went, and Radcliffe where I didn't go. But I 11 guess I should add I didn't want to go to college at all. 12 MARYBETH HOGAN: Why is that? 13 MARYJO WHITE: Well, I was actually very seriously 14 dating my now husband, John white, in high school. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: You met him in high school? 16 MARYJO WHITE: I met him in intermediate school. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: what grade? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Eighth grade but I started dating him 19 in ninth grade. And I dated him for thereafter basically. Page 10 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 20 But, in any event, I thought I'd work one Christmas at 21 the Hecht's Department store in the suburb of Washington 22 selling clothes or something, teenage girl clothes as I recall 23 it. I was quite good at it actually because I was an honest 24 broker. At least that's my theory. But anyway, and I thought, 25 you know, I want to get married and just, you know, work, like SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 23 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 in a department store. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: Like in a department store? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Like in a department store. 4 My father thought that that was not a good idea 5 because he had always had a mind that I would go to college and 6 I was -- you know, I was a very good student so I could get 7 into college and so he, in effect, filled out my college 8 applications. And then you know William & Mary was a state 9 school, obviously much less expensive, closer to home. 10 Yes. I think I probably would have gone to the 11 university of Virginia in Charlottesville because, again, my 12 husband to be, John white, was going there, but in 1966 it was 13 not a co-Ed school. It actually became co-Ed in 1970 which is 14 actually the year I graduated from William & Mary. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, one of the things you said in 16 describing your choice of school was you mentioned that William 17 & Mary was a state school and it was more affordable. Did you 18 sense economic pressure when you were growing up in terms of 19 how much money your family had? 20 MARYJO WHITE: No. I mean, we were clearly, I guess, 21 middle class but not wealthy middle class at all. I suppose 22 the only time I noticed anything about money was when on one of 23 those trips I mentioned we took by car and we stopped for lunch 24 on vacation and I wanted to order french fries or something in 25 addition to the hamburger or whatever we were having. My SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 24 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 father didn't -- he said we don't need french fries, that's 2 more money. Now whether that was really because it was for 3 more money or for other reasons but I didn't think of that as 4 therefore we had to scrimp on anything, so no. The answer is 5 no. I didn't think about the decision to go to William & Mary 6 because we couldn't afford someplace else but I think it was 7 less expensive because it was state supported so that's a 8 benefit, obviously, to the family. My parents did pay for me 9 to go to college. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: And was staying in Virginia a 11 priority because John was at UVA? 12 MARYJO WHITE: I think that's true too. It was about 13 an hour and a half drive between the two schools and that 14 obviously made it easier. we dated almost all throughout 15 college. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: So, William & Mary actually had a 17 long history of co-education, much longer than many other 18 schools, I think actually since 1918 they were a co-ed school. 19 was it about 50/50 men and women when you attended? 20 MARYJO WHITE: I think the answer to that is yes. It 21 was kind of an interesting mix of men and women, I thought 22 because you essentially had, I think, a group of women from 23 out-of-state and from Virginia who were kind of off the charts 24 academically and the men tended not to be at least that Page 11 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 25 successful academically they would have either gone to UVAor SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 25 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 some other school if they were. so, you had some really, 2 really smart women, maybe not quite as smart men but they were 3 all gorgeous jocks and it seemed to work very well, actually, 4 that combination. And obviously there were a lot of smart men, 5 too. I'm not suggesting anything by that but it was kind of a 6 noticeably different pool, I would say, between the men and the 7 women. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: And were a lot of couples marriages 9 formed during those years between William & Mary students? 10 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. Quite a few. Quite a few. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: I think I have heard somewhere that 12 maybe even earlier today that you were in a sorority? 13 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 14 MARYBETH HOGAN: From what year? 15 MARYJO WHITE: I guess that's -- I'm trying to 16 remember whether it was your freshman or your sophomore year. 17 It was Tri Delta. I actually lived in the sorority house both 18 my junior year and my senior year. I graduated in January of 19 my senior year and it was a very much Greek campus. I mean, 20 you know, for fraternities and sororities the whole social life 21 centered around the fraternities and the sororities there. 22 Williamsburg, Virginia is the town that William & Mary is in. 23 They used to call it The colony because of colonial 24 Williamsburg. It was a town that was a little too small for my 25 tastes because I loved New York city but I didn't know that SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 26 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 then so the social life did center around the sororities and 2 fraternities. I didn't really partake in the social life of 3 Williamsburg very much at William & Mary because I was 4 commuting back and forth to Charlottesville to see John on the 5 weekends but, you know, the school was probably the best school 6 I have ever attended actually in terms of academics and was an 7 extremely strong school, really, across the boards. And, like 8 I said, I did it in three and a half years which I think was a 9 good thing to do. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Why is that? 11 MARYJO WHITE: To get married earlier. And I was 12 about to say it was a good thing to do in three and a half 13 years because I felt a little stifled in Williamsburg, 14 Virginia. I found that a little too confinin~. Women had to 15 wear dresses to class. My English class was 1n the wren 16 Building in Williamsburg, Virginia. The tourists would come 17 through, I used to refer to them as touri. 18 so, the town of williamsbur~ and me perhaps were not 19 as compatible. As you know, we didn t have cars then and so 20 forth so I felt that, yes, I needed more freedom and space. 21 so, the reason I graduated early was to get married earlier. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: Where did you get married? 23 MARYJO WHITE: In Washington, D.C. in the chapel of 24 the church where my parents were actually married, too. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: So then did you move to SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 27 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) Page 12 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 1 Charlottesville? 2 MARYJO WHITE: I moved to Charlottesville for John's 3 last semester and then I worked at the HEW, actually, but it 4 was the office of Public Health in Charlottesville. I was 5 really a student loan processor. I also played on the women's 6 softball team. 7 MARYBETH HOGAN: At UVA? 8 MARYJO WHITE: No, at Charlottesville. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: Back in -- 10 MARYJO WHITE: I don't know if it was the office's 11 team but it was a -- and I had been used to always being like 12 first or second best. I was about ninth best on this team and 13 it was terrific. I had a great team and it was really pretty 14 high level softball team and everybody came out to watch it in 15 the community. It was kind of a big deal. And my fondest 16 memory of that is that some pitcher on the other team was 17 pitching a no hitter against us so I decided to bunt and 18 successfully bunted. And I was not the most popular person 19 with the opponents and when I was going to second base they 20 deliberately threw the ball at my head but it missed. 21 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you wear batting helmets then? 22 MARYJO WHITE: Did we wear betting helmets then? I 23 don't think so. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: so this league was a women's league, 25 not a student's league? SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 28 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, a women's league. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: It was which was pretty unusual at 3 that time? 4 MARYJO WHITE: I guess so. Yes. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: You would have teams to play, 6 obviously? 7 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. You know, again, I don't -- it 8 probably was unusual. I mean, I heard about the team and I was 9 asked to, you know, tryout for the team and so I did. And they 10 took it pretty seriously though. Men and women came to watch 11 these games in Charlottesville. It was kind of a big deal. 12 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, you mentioned what a good 13 education you thought you got in college. Are there any 14 professors or mentors that stand out as having an impact on you 15 now? 16 MARYJO WHITE: No. I'm not a mentor person, I'm 17 afraid. I mean I didn't really -- you know, it was a great 18 education. I didn't always keep up with the reading. I 19 crammed for exams. I was elected early or whatever it is to 20 Phi Beta Kappa and had a couple of psychology professors who I 21 think probably, you know, might qualify as mentors. I think 22 they would probably think they were mentors. They were 23 certainly interested in my going to graduate school in 24 psychology and so forth but it was not a -- I enjoyed the 25 subject matter of what I was being taught. I was not plugged SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 29 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 into individual professors when I was at William & Mary and 2 probably not thereafter, either, in law school or graduate 3 school. 4 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, you said something that I 5 thought was interesting. You said you are not a mentor person Page 13 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 6 and I am wondering what you mean by that. I am wondering 7 whether that's a nomenclature issue for you or whether in fact 8 you didn't have people in your life as you were growing up who 9 watched out for you and gave you advice. That sort of thing. 10 MARYJO WHITE: well, because you are always asked 11 that question now: who were your mentors? so you get asked 12 this question a lot. And I have always given it a lot of 13 thought and so I have sort of canvassed my life in answering 14 that question and I can't point to anyone I would consider a 15 mentor meaning someone who took a particular interest in me, 16 gave me advice about what to do, took me under their wing kind 17 of thing until after I was a partner at Debevoise & Plimpton 18 and then back into the government as the chief Assistant united 19 states Attorney to U.S. Attorney Andy Maloney who was the U.S. 20 Attorney in Brooklyn. I considered him a mentor. Now, I would 21 have been 42 years old or whatever it was at the time. And I 22 had the very good fortune to, in effect, function nearly as the 23 U.S. Attorney for two or three years under his tutelage and I 24 have considered that to be -- both I consider him a mentor and 25 to have been invaluable to me, frankly, in the rest of my SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 30 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 career, but before that I can't say that. I can't point to 2 anyone who I consider to be a mentor. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: What about someone like Bob Fiske 4 who hired you, I think, to be an assistant U.S. Attorney in the 5 southern District earlier? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Right, Bob. Bob, by the way, also 7 hired a lot of women to the U.S. Attorney's office and some of 8 my very best friends are still among those women from when he 9 deliberately went out and hired women for the U.S. Attorney's 10 office, really transformed it, I think. And he has certainly 11 always been extremely supportive of me in private practice as 12 well but I was only in the U.S. Attorney's office at that time 13 in the southern District for three and a half years and then I 14 came back to Debevoise. so, I went through the office in kind 15 of a whirlwind. He left before I did because there was a 16 chan~e in administrations and John Martin came in. so, I 17 didn t have that much contact with him, I guess. And I 18 certainly benefited from hi~ leadership of the office and all 19 he did for women in the office but I wasn't really close to him 20 in the office. 21 MARYBETH HOGAN: Have you stayed connected at all to 22 William & Mary or many of your friends from there? 23 MARYJO WHITE: The answer to that is no. William & 24 Mary has reached out to me a few times. I was on, from a 25 distance, a policy committee for William & Mary some years back SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 31 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 but never -- because, I think, of the press of other things at 2 work and the travel to Williamsburg to attend the meetings, you 3 know, I was never really an active participant in that 4 community thereafter. I think the first time I actually -­ 5 first and only time, I think, I have actually been back to 6 William & Mary since 1970 when I graduated was when my husband 7 and I and our son wer,e touring colleges and he actually looked 8 at William & Mary. so, that was fun to do. But I still had 9 the distinct impression that Williamsburg was still too small a 10 town for me. Page 14 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Had it changed a lot in the years? 12 MARYJO WHITE: There were more buildings. certainly 13 it is I mean Busch Gardens is there. All of Williamsburg 14 has been built up. women don't wear dresses to class and 15 students can have cars. so, it had opened up, was more 16 bustling, had more things that I am sure I would have partaken 17 of when I was there before but I'm a New York city person. 18 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. 19 speaking of New York city, when did you move here? 20 MARYJO WHITE: 1970, I guess. September/August of 21 1970? My husband and I were accepted into a number of graduate 22 schools -- in my case -- and law schools in both of our cases, 23 and we were deciding where to go including perhaps staying in 24 Charlottesville. The university of Virginia has a very good 25 law school. A~d I sort of made the case for moving to New York SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 32 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 because the Yankees were here. And then it was love at first 2 sight for me. I mean, I thought everybody is up all night. 3 You can get a Nathan's hot dog. The news doesn't go off. I 4 mean this -- and I actually remember you had to physically -- 5 or I did anyway and I assume this is true of anybody who lived 6 here -- you had to physically adjust to the bombardment of the 7 stimuli in New York. we lived in Greenwich village the first 8 year which is where NYU Law school is and it is just constant 9 motion, constant lights flashing in your eyes. Very, very 10 different. And I remember we visited my parents in McLean a 11 couple months after we were in New York and I couldn't go to 12 sleep at all because it was so quiet, you know, no sirens, no 13 lights. And so after a period of adjustment to all the tall 14 buildings and all the stimuli it seemed to me to be and still 15 seems to me to be the perfect place for me. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: You didn't go to law school right 17 after college? 18 MARY JO WHITE: I didn't. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: what did you do? 20 MARYJO WHITE: I had something called a Woodrow 21 Wilson fellowship which was basically something you competed 22 for. And it wasn't a moneyed scholarship or a funded 23 scholarship but it was a category of scholarship that would 24 help you get college teaching jobs. And if you didn't go to 25 graduate school the next year after you graduated from college SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 33 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 you would lose that. so, I applied to both graduate schools in 2 psychology and law school at the same time but decided to go to 3 graduate school instead of law school first because I wanted to 4 keep that Woodrow Wilson Fellowship title because it would help 5 me if I ended up teaching college. And I was accepted into 6 Columbia's program, I think. 7 we came up here, looked at the school, and as I 8 remember it there were rats running around and skineria in 9 boxes and I thought, eh, I'm not sure this is the greatest 10 thing. so, somehow I got steered to The New school for social 11 Research which at the time had and perhaps still does have one 12 of the most impressive faculties anywhere in the country and 13 particularly in psychology. so, all the people that I knew 14 from having majored in psychology at William & Mary who were 15 the great authorities of the country were teaching at The New Page 15 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 16 school. 17 So, The New school had open admissions which means you 18 didn't have to have majored, basically, in what you went to 19 graduate school in, although I did major in psychology and I 20 sort of walked in the door and they sort of saw that I majored 21 and did pretty well at William & Mary and so they, ·on the spot, 22 accepted me and offered me a National science Foundation 23 scholarship that paid for the whole thing. 24 I decided there were some odds that I would go to law 25 school the next year but I didn't know and so I kind of SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 34 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 bludgeoned them into letting me take enough courses that one 2 year so that if I did decide to go to law school I would have 3 enough credits for a masters degree in psychology. so, I ended 4 up taking a lot of classes. I had a great time that year. I 5 mean it was basically we lived eight blocks away on Washington 6 square. classes were at night so I had all day to wander 7 around New York. since I had majored in psychology the classes 8 were not that hard so that helpea. I ended up working for 9 really just, you know, renowned researchers in young adult 10 schizophrenia. I worked at the Psychiatric Institute for one 11 of the leading therapists for young schizophrenics. It was a 12 great year. It was a great year. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: what made you decide then to go into 14 the law after that year? 15 MARYJO WHITE: once in a while I would attend, I 16 think, even a class or two that John was attending at NYUin 17 law school, their moot court competitions, and I decided what 18 he was studying was more interesting things than what I was 19 studying. Pure and simple. I then decided to go to Columbia 20 instead of NYU. I had been accepted into both, but for the 21 sake of the marriage, I didn't think we should go to the same 22 law school. 23 MARYBETH HOGAN: And you ended up enjoying Columbia? 24 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I loved Columbia. I especially 25 loved the first year of law school. I was -- it is one of SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 35 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 those sort of points in my life where I thought this is where I 2 belong, after resisting it for awhile. And I loved the first 3 year 1n law school so much so that I actually, when I talk to 4 applicants, ask that question. Did you love your first year in 5 law school? And not many people do and probably some won't 6 admit it because it is kind of embarrassing that you loved your 7 first year in law school, but I think if you loved your first 8 year in law school you are going to be pretty happy and 9 successful as a lawyer thereafter. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: And why do you think that is? 11 MARYJO WHITE: Because I think you get the kind of 12 the core courses that, you know, I think sort of tap into what 13 I would call sort of the pure legal analysis of the profession 14 so that you are not taking the chichi courses of medicine and 15 whatever, you are taking contracts and taking civil procedure. 16 And if you like that analytic that is being presented to you, 17 love that analytic that is being presented to you, you find 18 that you can do it successfully and it is very energizing and I 19 think that carries over into whatever you do in the law. If 20 you are good at that and you love that you are going to be very Page 16 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 21 successful and I think very happy in the legal profession which 22 is not an easy one. 23 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did the professors at Columbia in 24 your first year typically use the Socratic method? 25 MARYJO WHITE: Some of them did, yes. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 36 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you enjoy that? 2 MARYJO WHITE: No. I always sat in the back row. I 3 was called on from time to time I guess. I must have been. 4 And I responded however I responded. But, no, I never -- I 5 don't like to stick my hand up any place probably, you know, in 6 that kind of setting. I think some people -- I mean, I was 7 sort of a popular student as I got into the second and third 8 year because I was known to have done very well but I wasn't a 9 show-off in class and once in a while when someone in a class w ahead of me or even in my own class who was kind of a show-off 11 would say something and I would be in class in the back row I 12 would RUt up my hand and say, you know, I think that is really 13 kind of the dumbest thing I have ever heard -- maybe slightly 14 more polite than that. so, I was quite popular with my fellow 15 students for doing that. so, I would get a kick out of that 16 because, you know, I don't like people to get puffed up. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: Were there noticeable gender 18 disparities in your Columbia class? 19 MARYJO WHITE: certainly I know this because I gave 20 the commencement speech once and I used the statistic, I think 21 the women were 17 percent of the class. I guess it is a class 22 of two hundred something. certainly you knew there were more 23 men than women. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: which was different from college? 25 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 37 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYBETH HOGAN: You remember thinking that at the 2 time? 3 MARYJO WHITE: No. 4 MARYBETH HOGAN: No. 5 MARYJO WHITE: Because I don't -- I mean it didn't 6 actually -- there were enough women that it didn't bother me 7 that there was that disparity. I think the big issue in my 8 years at Columbia -- my first year -- was that the women's 9 bathrooms were smaller than the men's bathrooms, and in my 10 usual midwestern way I would say, well, that's not really the 11 problem. I said we have plenty of stalls for the women here, 12 we need more women and then we can lobby for the bi~ger 13 bathroom. so, you know, it was noticeably a disparity which 14 was not a good thing but it didn't make my life miserable 15 because I like men and women. 16 The other thing that I distinctly remember, however, 17 is that the women were disproportionately represented on Law 18 Review which meant the women were doing better than the men, 19 you know, given their small numbers. I mean, I would guess Law 20 Review was at least 50/50 men and women and it might have been 21 60/40 women to men so you had a higher bar, seemingly, for the 22 women to get into Columbia Law school. so they were smarter 23 and they were better in some ways on average, obviously. And 24 that seemed to me -- I mean, it was great because I enjoyed 25 working with the women on the Law Review but it also kind of Page 17 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 38 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 told you something about there should be more women in the 2 class. And now Columbia -- and I am on the Board of 3 visitors -- is about 50/50. 4 MARYBETH HOGAN: Is the Board of Visitors like 5 trustees? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 7 MARYBETH HOGAN: How many are there? 8 MARYJO WHITE: Quite a few. I would say there are 9 probably 30, 35. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: How long have you been on the Board 11 of Visitors? 12 MARYJO WHITE: over 10 years, I think. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, do you have a lot of contacts 14 from law school still? Has that been an important part of your 15 network as you've proceeded in your profession? 16 MARYJO WHITE: I certainly have a couple of friends. 17 I don't see them very often and once in a while you get hired 18 by your law school classmates for different things. I mean 19 they remember you. But, in terms of friends that continue, I 20 would not say that happened to me until Debevoise and the U.S. 21 Attorney's office. I don't look back much, I look forward 22 other than the friendships I made in the U.S. Attorney's 23 office. Those lasted. And the friends in Debevoise lasts at 24 Debevoise. That is at the present as well, yes. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, was there anything in law SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 39 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 school that particularly got your interest, any particular 2 courses? 3 MARYJO WHITE: You know, I tended to like almost all 4 of them, actually. The ones that I -- you know, I guess if I 5 was to say what I liked best it was probably contracts and 6 antitrust. so, I don't know how one puts that together with 7 anything but contracts I considered to be the most basic, the 8 purest course that you take. It is both common law and the ucc 9 so it is a bit statutory as well as common law and it is, I 10 think, the most analytic course you take. I just loved 11 contracts. That was sort of what ignited my interest in the 12 first year the most, I think. But I really liked all of it, 13 essentially all of the classes. But I didn't have a sense of, 14 gee, I want to do this or that on taking those law school 15 classes. I just loved studying them. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: so no inkling when you were in law 17 school that you would maybe someday become a prosecutor? 18 MARYJO WHITE: No. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: No. when did that first enter into 20 your mind? 21 MARYJO WHITE: Probably not until I went to the U.S. 22 Attorney's office to become one. I think like a lot of law 23 students you think of yourself, if you think you are a 24 litigator you are Perry Mason but you're a defense attorney, 25 you are not a prosecutor. At least in our era that tended to SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 40 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 be where you would place yourself, you don't think of yourself Page 18 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 2 as the prosecutor. 3 And so, but -- actually, let me say first, when I 4 became an Assistant u.s. Attorney in 1978 it was another of 5 those moments where I thought why wasn't I here before? You 6 know, you sort of hit the ground running and are totally 7 energized the whole time you were there. You had your own 8 docket of cases, you were trying cases. It was just a very 9 exhilarating experience. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Going back now, the one typical path 11 is you work maybe for a Judge or an internship after your first 12 summer and then maybe a summer associate in a firm your second 13 summer. what did you do during your summers? 14 MARYJO WHITE: I worked at three different law firms 15 after each of my three years in law school. I worked at Casey, 16 Lane & Mittendorf, it was a small firm downtown after my first 17 year. I did corporate work. I don't think I knew what a 18 dividend was at the time so I decided I should be a litigator 19 instead, although I did learn what a dividend was, I think, the 20 next year. whatever. And then I worked at Debevoise after my 21 second year and I worked at Paul Weiss after my third year 22 before I took the bar exam. 23 when I was applying for essentially the year that you 24 really become a summer associate is after your second year. I 25 decided I didn't want to work downtown. I had worked down SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 41 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 there just as a physical matter, I wanted to be a litigator and 2 that sort of made my top two choices Debevoise and Paul Weiss. 3 And I opted for Debevoise. The Paul Weiss folks were great 4 about it and they said why don't you come here after your third 5 year. so, I ended up working only five weeks I think at both 6 Debevoise and Paul Weiss once because I had to go back to Law 7 Review, the other time because I was taking the bar exam. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: Why those two firms? what was it 9 that you learned that led you to those two firms? 10 MARYJO WHITE: I mean, the choices you make tend to 11 be based on very little information, actually -- midtown and 12 litigation. Probably the first being more important than the 13 second. obviously I wanted to do litigation, I knew it pretty 14 much from first or second year in law school. I also had · 15 terrific summers at both of the firms, actually, and I think 16 the people at both are very talented lawyers and actually have 17 friends from both of those experiences that I still have today 18 and they were both great experiences. Different experiences in 19 some ways but both great. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: Both of them obviously led you to 21 think that you wanted to work at a big firm, at least for some 22 time? 23 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I think that is fair to say. I 24 love working in -- I actually love also working which was a 25 relief, I think, to my parents, because they thought I would SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 42 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 probably stay in school for my entire life but I liked working 2 even more than law school and I obviously have said I liked law 3 school a lot, too. 4 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, I once read somewhere that 5 after law school you traveled for some time; is that correct? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. Page 19 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 7 My husband and I -- my husband graduated one year 8 earlier than I did and he clerked for a year, and then when I 9 graduated we decided I was not going to clerk that year, I was 10 going to maybe clerk the following year, which I did, 11 ultimately. But, we wanted to take a trip across the country 12 and so my parents and we had split the cost of a camper, a mini 13 Winnebago, and we shared its use. And so, John and I took a 14 trip beginning in whenever the bar exam was over, that month. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: July? 16 MARYJO WHITE: July I think, and we were going to 17 stay out as long as -- the entire year. And we went to I think 18 46 of the 48 continental united States, moved every day, and 19 then I think we got tired and it got cold and so we, around 20 December-ish, came back, in maybe January. And then I actually 21 went to Debevoise and worked at Debevoise as a litigation 22 associate before I clerked. But, it was a great trip. And the 23 theory was we will never have this kind of time again, let's 24 take it right now. And, guess what? we never have. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: You were right. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 43 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: Yeah. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: You were right. 3 Any particular memories from that trip? Anything that 4 sort of stands out all these years later? 5 MARYJO WHITE: First, I loved moving every day. It 6 fit my 5-year-old attention span, we are going again so I loved 7 that. The Grand canyon piece sort of stands out. It is going 8 to impress you whenever you are there, I think. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: was that the first time you had seen 10 it? 11 MARYJO WHITE: No, it was the second time. I had 12 seen it on one of our trips when I was a child again so it was 13 very interesting to see it again when you were an adult but it 14 is still very impressive. I remember going into the 15 campgrounds, the KOAcampgrounds every night and you talk to 16 very different kinds of people every night and it was fun. I 17 remember one memory I have is we sort of caught our dinner in 18 the pond, you know, trout, and you would wrap it in a corn husk 19 and cook it in a fire. It was like you pretended you were 20 roughing it anyway. we saw relatives that we haven't seen ever 21 again, I think, you know. so, it was just fun. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. 23 MARYJO WHITE: I mean nothing sort of stands out -­ 24 we went to some baseball games, went to different things. Went 25 to Las Vegas and sort of parked the camper in the parking lot SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 44 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 of the sands or whatever and would go into play the slot 2 machines or whatever it was. we just did different things in 3 different places. New Orleans, I remember actually loving 4 that. we were in California when the Santa Anas were there and 5 it was awful because the smog from that was pretty bad and I 6 remember that although California is a beautiful state. 7 MARYBETH HOGAN: How did you support yourselves 8 through this trip? How did you fund it? 9 MARYJO WHITE: John's mother had actually passed away 10 shortly after we were married in 1970 and so what that meant, 11 she left really a pretty modest sum but nevertheless a sum of Page 20 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 12 money to John which meant we did not have to work in law school 13 and had enough -- just enough -- to support this trip. And 14 then, after that, we both worked and we are both still working. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: So did you have kind of a strict 16 budget during the trip? 17 MARYJO WHITE: We didn't spend much. 18 MARYBETH HOGAN: Right. 19 MARYJO WHITE: we didn't spend much. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: Gas was probably the big -­ 21 MARYJO WHITE: I think gas was probably the most 22 expensive. once in a while we would stay in a motel or hotel 23 or something but it was really, you know, I mean obviously we 24 stayed out. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: This is tape 3. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 45 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 we were talking about a trip that Mary Jo took with 2 her husband John the year after she finished law school and the 3 trip ended in around December or January. Do you want to tell 4 us why you decided to come home? 5 MARY JO WHITE: Yes. I think we had headed east I 6 think in the fall, really, so that meant that it was getting 7 cooler and cooler to colder, so I think a combination of the 8 weather and also we were not at the end of our money to have us 9 stay out there but getting there. I think we were running out 10 of money to stay out too much longer, but a combination. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Had you told Debevoise you were 12 coming back after your summer associate time? 13 MARYJO WHITE: No. I don't think I did. I think I 14 told them I was taking this trip and then I was clerking the 15 next year, and so when we got back to New York in January or 16 February of 1975 I called up, I think Andy Hartzell or Asa 17 Rountree who were I think in effect co-chairs of the litigation 18 department at the time, and I said I'm back and explained where 19 I had been and if they didn't know in terms of the trip and 20 that I would like to come to work at Debevoise as a litigation 21 associate before I clerked. And so they were happy to have me 22 come, and so I did. 23 MARYBETH HOGAN: Testing, 1, 2, 3. Testing, 1, 2, 3. 24 This is Mary Beth Hogan, it is March 1, 2013. I am 25 here with Mary Jo white for our second session of her SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 46 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Trailblazer American Bar Association interview. we left off 2 with Mary Jo talking about her cross country trip that she took 3 after she graduated from law school with her husband John and I 4 wanted to ask you next about going to Debevoise. You went to 5 Debevoise after that trip for a short stint before your 6 clerkship? 7 MARY JO WHITE: Right. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: Is that right? 9 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you recall what you first worked 11 on as a lawyer? 12 MARYJO WHITE: Wow. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you recall any of the matters 14 that you worked on before you left for your clerkship? 15 MARYJO WHITE: I think I worked on a grand jury 16 subpoena in a case where we represented an energy uranium Page 21 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 17 comRany and at the time I had not yet -- my parents were afraid 18 of flying all their lives, hardly ever flew and I hadn't sort 19 .of shed that trepidation about flying at the time. Now I 20 totally have shed that trepidation about flying. And so, I had 21 to go to Denver to respond to this subpoena and so my first 22 plan was to take the train from New York to Denver and back. 23 somehow either that trip got cancelled -- I think it did and 24 got postponed for a month or so and about a month or so later I 25 was flying all over the world and enjoying it a great deal. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 47 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYBETH HOGAN: And were you flying with other 2 Debevoise lawyers? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Not initially. Not initially. I was 4 going myself. And it was the same kind of thing. It was 5 basically, I think, collecting documents and so on. And I 6 learned then I wasn't really good at collecting documents. My 7 eyes would glaze over and my attention span was very hard to 8 keep up in the process. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: Is that why you had to leave the 10 firm? 11 MARYJO WHITE: Actually, no. But I did tell Andy 12 Hartzell who was -- I guess was he co-chair? He was my 13 supervisor anyway and a great lawyer I worked for far too many 14 years, that I didn't think I was the best person to respond to 15 subpoenas. I do remember that. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you know when you first started 17 as a lawyer what area you wanted to practice in? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Litigation. I knew that. I mean, I 19 worked after my first summer at a firm called Casey, Lane & 20 Mittendorf and did corporate work and I didn't know much about 21 it at the time, I hadn't even had corporations in law school so 22 it was a little bit foreign territory but it was also, I 23 thou~ht, very passive in terms of the subject matter. It 24 didn t light me up, so to speak. so, I concluded after my 25 first summer that I wanted to be in litigation. Nothing more SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 48 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 specific than that. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: Right. So you didn't know going 3 into law school or starting after three years of law school 4 that you wanted to be a white collar lawyer? 5 MARYJO WHITE: No. Not at all. 6 MARYBETH HOGAN: okay. when do you think that that 7 sort of kicked in, that special interest? 8 MARYJO WHITE: Well, it didn't really kick in until I 9 was in the u.s. Attorney's office. And when I went to the U.S. 10 Attorney's office I very seriously considered going to the 11 civil division because I con$idered myself a civil lawyer, not 12 a criminal lawyer. But, I figured that incorrectly, that I 13 would never do the criminal law again and so I decided to go to 14 the criminal division. And so, that's where I got the interest 15 in doing the criminal side, although when I returned to 16 Debevoise in 1981 I did as much civil as I did white collar 17 work at my choice, really. And I still do, actually. 18 MARYBETH HOGAN: You still do? 19 MARYJO WHITE: Right. Right. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: You continue to do a mixture your 21 whole career? Page 22 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 22 MARYJO WHITE: Right. Right. 23 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you think that that ability to do 24 both civil and criminal work, which you have been able to do 25 your whole career, do you think that is harder to do now for SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 49 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 younger lawyers coming up? 2 MARYJO WHITE: I think it depends on which direction 3 and what sequence you do it. I think the transition from civil 4 to criminal is hard. I think criminal is a different -- more 5 of a different animal that, you know, you need to be steeped in 6 early on, I think, to keep that as a speciality. I think you 7 can go from criminal to civil much more easily. The strategic 8 calls are the same. I remember when I came back to Debevoise, 9 although obviously I had been a civil practitioner before I 10 went to the U.S. Attorney's office, but the first thing I did 11 was to read the Rules of civil Procedure from beginnin~ to end. 12 The first thing I did when I went to the U.S. Attorneys office 13 was to read the Rules of Evidence from beginning to end because 14 they were most pertinent but also the Rules of criminal 15 Procedure beginning to end. And they're not frankly all that 16 difficult to master but if you have never seen them before you 17 are operating on a different planet. 18 so, I think you can do both but I think you need to, 19 early on, have had the criminal experience to make it an easy 20 thing to do both. 21 MARYBETH HOGAN: Let's talk a little bit about your 22 clerkship. 23 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: You clerked; after about nine months 25 at Debevoise you left four your clerkship? SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 50 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: Correct. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: I assumed you had that lined up? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. Basically I decided to clerk a 4 year late so that we could take this trip we talked about 5 before. 6 Initially I told Columbia Law school, who had a very 7 strong -- Abe sofaer was the chair of the clerkship committee 8 that I didn't want to clerk at all. If I clerked I wanted to 9 clerk on the District court, not on the court of Appeals. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Why was that? 11 MARYJO WHITE: Because I thought clerking on the 12 circuit was more like another year on Law Review and I wanted 13 something that was new and where the learning curve would be 14 steeper. And I got a fair number of arguments against my doing 15 that but that's what I did. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did Columbia encourage you to do a 17 clerkship? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. Definitely. Definitely. And 19 encouraged me to do a circuit clerkship. 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: Did you think about doing both? 21 MARYJO WHITE: No. No. 22 MARY BETH HOGAN: No. 23 MARYJO WHITE: I had a wonderful clerkship with 24 Marvin Frankel, a brilliant -- absolutely brilliant jurist and 25 lawyer. Beautiful writer. I mean, it was a great, great SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. Page 23 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt (212) 805-0300 51 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 experience but about nine months into the 12-month clerkship I 2 was ready to leave to have my own job. And I did have a 3 possible opportunity to clerk again, actually at the supreme 4 court level, and I didn't because I wanted to have my own job. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: For what justice? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Brennan. It was basically -- I didn't 7 ever interview with him but it was kind of a rotating seat at 8 Columbia that Columbia had made known to me that, you know, I 9 might be eligible for or whatever. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Judge Frankel, you said he was a 11 brilliant jurist and a great writer. when you think back about 12 the impact he had on you as a young lawyer, what do you think 13 about? 14 MARYJO WHITE: I think for a year after I left the 15 clerkship I was actually a decent writer. I write like a truck 16 driver and so -- but once you are exposed to someone who is as 17 eloquent as he was -- not as clear a writer as I am but just a 18 beautiful writer for at least about a year I was a very, very 19 good and eloquent writer. Beyond that I think he gave us -- he 20 was at the point in his career where he was tired of the bench 21 and was about to leave, actually, and so our clerkship I think 22 was different than the prior clerks for him in that he gave us 23 much more responsibility because he was at that phase of his 24 career. 25 so, what I remember most about the experience in terms SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 52 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 of its carryover was that you decided a massive number of 2 motions and issues and learned what was persuasive and not. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: From the briefing you read and the 4 advocates who appeared before the court? 5 MARYJO WHITE: well, what you really learned was how 6 to decide things and what, in the process of your making the 7 objective right decision in your mind was persuasive and not. 8 Ano so, some firms briefs you would skip almost because they 9 would be all advocacy and you couldn't rely on even the 10 statement of facts. some firms would be absolutely the 11 opposite and so I always took that lesson away I think in terms 12 of what's persuasive and not, and I think because I functioned 13 for a year as the decision-maker, really, on so many things, I 14 think at least that that has always helped me be persuasive as 15 a lawyer. I learned what would be persuasive. And you would 16 think you would know that sort of intuitively but I always 17 anchor it to that experience that I think has made me a fairly 18 persuasive advocate after that. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: So what is it, just to drill down on 20 that a little bit because there will be a lot of people 21 listening to this interview over the years who want to become a 22 better lawyer, want to become a better writer; what is it that 23 you learned that year about what is a persuasive brief? How do 24 you persuade someone in court of your position? 25 MARYJO WHITE: well, the first thing you do is you SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 53 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 want your brief to have credibility. so, when you are reciting 2 the facts, don't shade them because you may lose your audience Page 24 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 3 before you get started even. 4 You know, you need to know your audience. I think 5 that is very important because for some Judges you may decide 6 not to take on the most difficult issue that is out there and 7 may be difficult for you to win. With other Judges you had 8 better address that. so, I think it is sort of a combination 9 of doing a credible, very honest product and usually dealing 10 with all the nuances and the complexities. I mean, there is 11 also the school of thought that you don't argue your opponent's 12 best points, and that's true, but you also can't be naive about 13 thinking that your fact finder is going to miss those. 14 so, if you were doing a brief for Marvin Frankel who 15 was a genius, you wouldn't leave out something that is hard for 16 you. You would analyze it credibly, head-on, and as 17 persuasively as you can. 18 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you recall any particular case 19 during your clerkship that was something that sticks with you 20 even today, either a very difficult decision or something that 21 was particularly interesting to you? 22 MARYJO WHITE: I think that the two that I remember 23 best, I guess one was the sentencing of Bernard Bergman who was 24 convicted in connection with a fraud involving nursing homes. 25 It was a very highly publicized case, it was long before the SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 54 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 sentencing guidelines were in effect, and so basically the 2 Judge had the discretion to sentence from probation to several 3 years in jail and I remember how difficult that decision was 4 for Judge Frankel to make. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: Why was that? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Because -- and I can't remember all 7 the details of this but there were some very persuasive, 8 sympathetic health reasons, all the good that Bernard Berkman 9 had done in addition to this fraud that made the issue for 10 Judge Frankel really whether there should be jail or not. And 11 Judge Frankel was an expert on sentencing and he actually 12 advocated the sentencing guidelines because he didn't think it 13 was good for the system to have such inconsistency among judges 14 and so forth. But the issue for him really was does he go to 15 jail or not. And he eventually sentenced -- usually the law 16 clerks had nothing to do with sentences. Given that was his 17 job, he did it, no consultation with the clerks. But he 18 brought me into this one because he really wanted to know, you 19 know, what I thought. And I remember advising him that I 20 thought it had to be jail. But after that I was not -- and nor 21 was he, I think -- sort of attuned to how much jail does it 22 really need to be, sort of jail or not jail. And I think the 23 sentence was six months and strong views on both sides, but 24 really he was excoriated for it being too short a sentence. 25 And there were abuses in the nursing home. They weren't given SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 55 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 enough funding and so forth so it wasn't just a matter of tax 2 fraua or something, it was also the kind of fraud that actually 3 caused harm to the elderly so it was a very highly charged 4 case. Watching the agony of the Judge having to come to that 5 decision -- that I remember. 6 The other case I remember was a case called Aspira 7 which was a racial discrimination case involving the New York Page 25 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 8 city public schools. I remember having to go through lots and 9 lots of data, lots and lots of analysis and coming up with a 10 decision that would comport with the 14th amendment and 11 Title VII but wouldn't sweep too broadly so as to paralyze the 12 school system. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: sounds very challenging -­ 14 MARYJO WHITE: very. 15 MARYBETH HOGAN: -- for someone a year out of law 16 school. 17 MARYJO WHITE: very. That was probably the most 18 challenging case. That was a very challenging case. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. 20 MARYJO WHITE: And I remember when I went in to say 21 to Judge Frankel on some issue and somewhere in the case was an 22 issue about having to cut certain classes or resources that the 23 argument was being made that if you cut it equally across 24 racial lines then the percentages for minorities represented in 25 that particular program would be even less. And so I remember SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 56 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 saying to the Judge, I said, you can't cut equally when you 2 start from a baseline of inequality. And he turned to me, he 3 looked at me and he said, that's "as subtle as hell." so, I 4 took that as a compliment. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: From a genius? 6 MARYJO WHITE: From a genius, right. He did call me 7 a hoodwinked genius once or twice, whatever that means. But, 8 anyway ... 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: so, I know you know some law 10 students today or you are in touch with current law students 11 and you also speak with young associates all the time. Do you 12 recommend that they try for clerkships as an experience that 13 you think helps people in their professional development? 14 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. No question about it. I think 15 it is also fun which should not be forgotten when one decides 16 what jobs to do. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, you started a year after you 18 graduated which I take it was a little unusual at the time. 19 MARYJO WHITE: started in law school you mean? 20 MARYBETH HOGAN: Your clerkship. 21 MARYJO WHITE: Oh. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: You started a year -- 23 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, but that was so we could take 24 that trip. 25 MARYBETH HOGAN: I know, but where I am going with SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 57 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 this is the process has changed since you and I were in law 2 school and most people, their track was to finish law school, 3 you clerk for a year and then you go and do what you are going 4 to do. Now, it is quite different and judges are looking for s people one or two years, sometimes even three years out of law 6 school as a routine matter, not as an exception. what are your 7 views on that from both from the perspective of the students 8 and also do you have a perspective as a law firm partner about 9 that? 10 MARYJO WHITE: Also -- well, I think it is very good 11 for the judges because I think the more experienced, the clerks 12 are the more useful they are. They have the same brain that Page 26 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 13 you would hire them for out of law school and they have 14 experience besides and that is only useful for the judge. I 15 think the market is more flexible now. I think that is good. 16 Law firms are more flexible. I believe very strongly in all 17 lawyers grabbing as many slices of legal life whenever they 18 come your way that are very interesting to you. You have a 19 long time to be a lawyer. I think fortunately now the law firm 20 marketplace allows more flexibility so if your clerkships come 21 later in your life a little bit, that's fine. I mean, you just 22 have to have a longer-term view. I wouldn't do that today 1f 23 it were up to me as the student. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: Why is that? 25 MARYJO WHITE: Because as great a job as the SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 58 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 clerkship job is, and I think it is one of the best you ever 2 have, it is the Judge's job, not yours. And so, I was one of 3 those people who wanted my own job as quickly as possible. 4 MARYBETH HOGAN: I could see that. I can see that. 5 okay, so you finished up your clerkship, it was a one 6 year stint and I think you went right back to Debevoise at that 7 time? 8 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, I did. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: so now we are talking about 1976 and 10 I believe you were at Debevoise that time for about two years? 11 Is that right? 12 MARYJO WHITE: A little less. 13 MARYBETH HOGAN: A little less than two years. 14 so, what do you remember from that period? You are 15 now I guess a third year associate? 16 MARYJO WHITE: or -- yes, something -­ 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: something like that? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: You came back, you were in the 20 litigation group? 21 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: How big was the group at that point? 23 Do you recall? 24 MARY JO WHITE: I would guess a dozen partners maybe 25 and, you know, 50 or so associates, maybe. I mean, I am not SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 59 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 sure that is right. That is my guess. 2 MARYBETH HOGAN: Ballpark? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, ballpark. 4 MARYBETH HOGAN: Any other women -- well, first let's 5 start with partners. Any women partners at that time at 6 Debevoise? 7 MARYJO WHITE: Barbara Robinson was the only woman 8 partner at the firm. 9 MARYBETH HOGAN: And she was the first? 10 MARYJO WHITE: She was the first. And I was the 11 second so that may fast forward, but. 12 MARYBETH HOGAN: We haven't gotten to that part in 13 the chronology. You are still an associate? 14 MARYJO WHITE: I am still an associate. Right. 15 okay. I didn't stay in those roles very long. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: what about associates in the 17 litigation group? were there other women with you? Page 27 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 18 MARYJO WHITE: I don't recall that there were, 19 actually. There may have been one or two. I remember other 20 associates but they were women associates but they were 21 corporate: siri Marshall comes to mind as a peer, for example. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: so, when you came back to Debevoise 23 did you have it in your mind that you wanted to be a partner at 24 Debevoise? 25 MARYJO WHITE: Not necessarily. If I stayed I wanted SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 60 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 to be a partner rather than not be a partner, but it was not 2 like a life goal by any means. 3 MARYBETH HOGAN: Who did you work with? 4 MARYJO WHITE: I worked with Standish Medina. I 5 worked with Asa Rountree. I worked with Andy Hartzell. Those 6 are the ones that come to mind. I did a little matter for Sam 7 Gates I think. 8 MARYBETH HOGAN: And did you get good experiences? 9 MARYJO WHITE: I got great experiences, actually, and 10 probably one of the reasons I went to the u.s. Attorney's 11 office was be·cause I was given -- actually I was on two trials, 12 one my own which was a labor dispute of some kind, I can't 13 remember all the particulars now but I was allowed to handle it 14 myself, and then I did a jury trial with Standish Medina, like 15 a breach of a plumbing contract at his condo or something but 16 it was in Brooklyn, you know, it was rough and tumble. 17 MARYBETH HOGAN: Brooklyn supreme court? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. And I loved it. So, from a 19 taste of that experience unlike after right after I clerked 20 when I was not attracted to apply to the U.S. Attorney's office 21 then at least, I then decided I really wanted to get more trial 22 experience so I applied to the U.S. Attorney's office. 23 MARYBETH HOGAN: How did you get your own trial as a 24 third year associate -- third or fourth year associate? How 25 did that come about? That is not very typical. Today anyway. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 61 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: No. And it clearly was in terms of 2 who gave it to me. It might have been Standish, actually, I 3 don't know, but it was given to me because they wanted to make 4 me happy. 5 MARYBETH HOGAN: Meaning you wanted the 6 responsibility? 7 MARYJO WHITE: I wanted the responsibility. I think 8 they thought I did a good job and they wanted to keep me here 9 so they tried to give me very good assignments. 10 MARYBETH HOGAN: Yes. 11 MARYJO WHITE: I mean I don't mean to say that 12 MARY BETH HOGAN: No. 13 MARYJO WHITE: -- in an obnoxious way. 14 MARYBETH HOGAN: No. I am asking because I am 15 thinking of young people today who are ambitious and want to do 16 things 1n the law, women in particular, and strategies that 17 they can use to get more responsibility earlier in their career 18 so that they can really shine and I am just curious how that 19 came about. Did you say to the senior -- Standish Medina was 20 probably not a senior partner at that point but probably had 21 been a partner for 10 years or so at that point; is that right? 22 MARYJO WHITE: Yeah. That sounds about right. That Page 28 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 23 sounds about right. 24 MARYBETH HOGAN: I mean, did you just come out and 25 say: Standish, I would love a trial? SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 62 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: You know, I don't think so. I think I 2 was on the trial with him that I mentioned before, the plumbing 3 trial, the jury trial, and he knew I loved that and he always, 4 I think, took an interest in my career here at Debevoise and so 5 he gave me that opportunity. I didn't say find me a trial or 6 anything like that. But he, when it came up he thought I could 7 handle 1t and gave it to me and I think it's -- look. I think 8 you have to -- I don't think I was a squeaky wheel at the time 9 about getting a trial but I think you have to be a squeaky 10 wheel. You have to express your ambition and show that you are 11 able to function autonomously and that may not be so easy 12 because you may not be given the opportunity to have your own 13 responsibility early enough. I mean, obviously I got it 14 because of the plumbing trial. I mean, we sort of split the 15 trial and I could then demonstrate that to Standish, at least, 16 that I could handle something on my own. so, he basically gave 17 it to me. As I said, what it did is whet my appetite for more 18 trials which meant I left to get more trials because it is hard 19 to get trials in these firms. It was hard then, it is hard 20 now. 21 MARYBETH HOGAN: You said you loved it. what is it 22 about a -trial that you love? 23 MARYJO WHITE: well, trials to me -- well, I am older 24 now and I have had more trials, they're your highest highs and 25 lowest lows. But, on those two trials there weren't many lows SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 63 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected v~rsion) 1 so I hadn't experienced the lows of trial at that time. 2 I actually like, again, sort of figuring out what is 3 persuasive. I like the peoRle aspects of it. when you have a 4 jury there is that aspect of it and translating it, whatever 5 the subject matter is, into something that laypeople, for the 6 most part, can understand. There is nothing like the drama of 7 a jury verdict, particularly a criminal jury verdict but also a 8 civil jury verdict. 9 You have to distill things down to their essence which 10 is one of the reasons that I love the law anyway. I mean, I 11 like that exercise, that mental exercise and you have an 12 audience that will vary that you have to present that to in a 13 way that they decide with you. And it is competitive. 14 MARYBETH HOGAN: And you like to compete? 15 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: so, you had great experiences it 17 sounds like, you were very fortunate it sounds like -- 18 MARYJO WHITE: Very. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: -- in those couple years. Were 20 there any times during those couple years as an associate where 21 you didn't have such a great experience or questioned your 22 decision to be at a firm and be a lawyer? 23 MARYJO WHITE: I don't remember any particularly bad 24 experiences. one thing that I do remember is concluding that I 25 didn't have the right mindset to pretend I was the last person SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 Page 29 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 64 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 on the line of something, whether it is a brief or any other 2 task when I actually wasn't. 3 so, what you do as a young associate is you draft the 4 brief and then it gets edited 19 times by several other people 5 maybe. I could do two drafts, maybe three, but I'm not going 6 to do eight when I know it is going to go through that process 7 and I'm not the last person on the line. so, I do remember 8 concluding that to fully grow as a lawyer I needed to leave the 9 law firm context in order to have my own docket of cases where 10 I was truly the last person on the line. 11 MARYBETH HOGAN: Do you think that it is different in 12 any way for people coming out of law school today who are going 13 to what I will call a big law firm which Debevoise was at the 14 time -- 15 MARY JO WHITE: Right. 16 MARYBETH HOGAN: -- a big law firm, and is still 17 considered a big law firm -- 18 MARYJO WHITE: Right. 19 MARYBETH HOGAN: -- although there are mega law 20 firms now. 21 MARY JO WHITE: Right. 22 MARYBETH HOGAN: But, do you -- you know, the 23 industry has changed a fair amount since the 1970s and I think 24 law firms have changed a fair amount. How different do you 25 think it is for somebody coming out of law school in 2013, for SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 65 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 example, and starting at a big law firm than it was in '76, 2 '77? 3 MARYJO WHITE: First, I think it is a lot harder. 4 The jobs aren't as plentiful but once you get to the law firm I 5 think it is probably tougher just the way the marketplace is 6 structured and the firms are structured to get the kind of 7 experience I had. I don't know if I started today I would get 8 two trials. It is more hierarchical, I think to some degree, 9 which is unfortunate. 10 I mean, I remember when I was recruiting associates 11 for Debevoise earlier on I would distinguish Debevoise by 12 saying that, look, you are not going to have to go through 13 three layers of associates to get to me, you know, as the 14 partner. we have a much more collapsed structure so that you 15 get that kind of one-on-one experience with the partners. And 16 I think that's much rarer now. I think you try to do that, at 17 least on some cases you have but I think it is much rarer. I 18 think it is harder to get a rich experience in these law firms 19 now. I still think it is excellent experience, however, in 20 ways that are not necessarily intuitive. 21 There is the whole zeitgeist to do the best job you 22 possibly can on everything and you usually have the time and 23 resources to do that; a little less so today I think than in 24 1975 or whatever, and that sticks with you when you are in 25 settings where you don't have the time or the resources. You SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 66 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 still have that sort of this striving for excellence, probably 2 striving for perfection as law firms get hit over the head for. 3 It is an enormously important mindset to acquire and I think Page 30 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 4 you acquire that uniquely in these large law firms, actually. 5 so, I think it is an excellent experience in that respect. 6 MARYBETH HOGAN: Now, you are a great strategist and 7 you mentioned how it is differ~nt to be in a big law firm today 8 than it was back then and it may be harder to get the different 9 kinds of experiences but I want you to try to think of yourself 10 as a first year law student now, say, starting at Debevoise or 11 another large firm. You would figure out how to succeed and 12 how to get good work experiences and I just wonder what you 13 would do, given the world as it is now, and the firms as they 14 are now. 15 I think what I would do is, well, figure out what work 16 there is that I find particularly interesting. If are you 17 motivated, if you are doing things that you find very 18 interesting. And kind of on an equal level I would figure out 19 which partners are particularly interested in giving me maximum 20 responsibility and who run their cases in a way that are not so 21 hierarchically run so that I would have the -- 22 (taping cut off) 23 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: This is July 7, 2015, and we are 24 continuing the interview of Mary Jo White for her oral history 25 and we are at Debevoise & Plimpton between 1976 and 1978. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 67 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Mary Jo, you mentioned that you didn't remember any 2 particular female associates in the litigation department or 3 any, and I wonder if there was anything that struck but 4 Debevoise at the time about the lack of women or whether you 5 thought this was just a normal occurrence. 6 MARYJO WHITE: I probably thought it was a normal 7 occurrence and not having sort of been out in the world until I 8 went to Debevoise. I think Debevoise was a place, although 9 there weren't in numbers that many women, that was quite 10 encouraging of women. To some degree I think the firm didn't 11 know what to expect of women either and so I always felt like 12 in my case that they just thought that's how women were, 13 however I was, and that was a good environment for me because 14 that allowed you to be yourself. 15 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: were there more women in 16 non-litigation departments at Debevoise or do you remember? 17 was litigation shied away from by women? 18 MARYJO WHITE: No question there were more women in 19 corporate and also trusts and estates. Those, I think 20 traditionally, not just at Debevoise, have been thought of as 21 more conducive to women lawyers. It certainly wasn't a 22 requirement that you not go into litigation but I think at that 23 point in time I don't think that many women were attracted to 24 litigation and I think there was an assumption that corporate 25 and trust and estates, maybe tax were better places for women SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 68 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 to work. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Do you remember whether any of 3 the women attorneys at that point in time in Debevoise had 4 children or were having children and whether there were any 5 issues about that? 6 MARYJO WHITE: The only woman that I recall having 7 children, there may be others but the one I recall was Barbara 8 Robinson who was the first woman partner at Debevoise and she Page 31 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 9 actually took, I think, two years off and then came back to the 10 firm. one consequence of her having a family, though, at that 11 point in time, was she switched from corRorate to trusts and 12 estates I think with some encouragement from the firm thinking 13 that would have been easier for her to manage. 14 I remember when I learned about that, which is 15 actually the day after I became a partner at Debevoise, I was 16 taken aback by it at the notion that someone who had chosen 17 corporate as their area to practice in had made that big an 18 adjustment which I didn't think would necessarily be required 19 because you had children. 20 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: I know that Debevoise has a 21 Rart-time policy for women who are mothers and I want to skip 22 forward to when you went back to Debevoise and I assume there 23 were more women there. Did you see growth in sort of 24 recognizing the issue of women having children and figuring out 25 ways for their firm to accommodate that and not harm the SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 69 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 woman's career? 2 MARYJO WHITE: No question about that. Tremendous 3 progress in a pretty short period of time. 4 I think before I left Debevoise to go into the 5 government, or perhaps it was when I first came back from the 6 government, I did have a hand in actually establishing the 7 first part-time program for then women lawyers -- now any 8 lawyers -- so that they could better accommodate family 9 responsibilities. one thing that is still unique about 10 Debevoise, it is not by itself but it certainly at the time 11 was, that you could actually become a part-time partner after 12 being a part-time associate. That was a huge sea change for 13 the major New York Law firms and made a huge difference, I 14 think, in terms of keeping the very talented women in the firm. 15 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: And I gather that men are also 16 permitted to go part-time? 17 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, and some have done that. That's 18 a more relatively more recent phenomenon but that's occurred as 19 well. 20 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: And you think part-time partners 21 has worked? 22 MARYJO WHITE: I think it has worked very well. I 23 mean I think -- you know, I wasn't a part-time partner. I was 24 actually once encouraged to become a part-time partner to give 25 the program more credibility early on and I didn't do that SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 70 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 because I knew I wouldn't work part-time so I -- you know, I 2 would work full time but be called part-time and be paid 3 part-time so I didn't think that made sense, frankly. 4 It is not easy. I mean, look. You always have bumps 5 in the road about do you get the same quality of work or not 6 and can you balance it ano it is not an easy balance, it never 7 is and it always has bumps in the road, but I think because 8 they've been doing it long enough and successfully enough that 9 I think you find everybody declaring it a real success. 10 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Did you have any particularly 11 good or bad experiences as a young associate? 12 MARYJO WHITE: Well, I think in the good column I 13 would certainly point to the early trials that I was involved Page 32 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 14 in, just tremendous experiences. I think when I came back to 15 Debevoise before I became a partner I was there about a year, I 16 came back from the U.S. Attorney's office before I became a 17 partner and I was on a major criminal matter ·for a client and I 18 do remember there being some concern about essentially my being 19 in charge of this major international criminal investigation 20 about how the client would react to having a woman, 21 particularly a young woman in charge of the matter. I put this 22 in the good column, not in the mixed column even, and I 23 remember being on the phone with the most senior partner, in 24 fact I think 1t was the presiding partner at the time in his 25 office on the speaker phone with the most senior litigation SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 71 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 partner who didn't know, I think, I was sitting in the room and 2 there was some discussion about my surfacing -- this had been 3 early on in the representation -- my surfacing with the client. 4 And the presiding partner, the most senior partner said, you 5 know, I think it is beyond time that the client sees the person 6 who is actually doing their work and they'll just have to get 7 used to it. so, I thought that was pretty -- it is too bad 8 that exchange had to occur in order to have a woman surface 9 with a major client on a criminal matter in particular but the 10 fact that it did occur and the firmness with which the lead 11 partner in the entire firm said no, no, no, she's doing the 12 work, she is going to surface with the client. 13 JUDGE BARBARA JONES: That's a pretty great story. 14 would you consider that lead partner a mentor? 15 MARYJO WHITE: No. But I would consider him 16 extraordinarily important. 17 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: All right. we are going to move 18 now to the period of time when you were the U.S. Attorney or 19 went to the U.S. Attorney's office which was 1978 to exactly 20 when did you leave, Mary Jo? 21 MARYJO WHITE: June 1981. 22 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: June 1981. First of all, when 23 did you decide you wanted to go to U.S. Attorney's office? 24 MARYJO WHITE: I probably decided I wanted to 90 to 25 the U.S. Attorney's office in early 1978, probably sometime SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 72 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 mid-1977 which would mean I was basically back at the firm 2 about a year and a half or more, almost two years, and decided 3 to -- I mean, I didn't want to go to the U.S. Attorney's office 4 right out of my clerkship because I thought at the time it was 5 a little bit of an old boys' network, fraternity-like 6 atmosphere. For whatever reasons, went back to the firm, had a 7 very good experience. Enjoyed the trials tremendously which 8 made you want more of the trials and I also concluded that -­ 9 and this isn't true of everyone -- that I couldn't grow as much 10 as a lawyer, certainly not as quickly, if I wasn't the last 11 person on the line responsible for my own caseload. I couldn't 12 sort of pretend that there weren't eight other people reviewing 13 my brief. And so, I really looked at it as extraordinarily 14 interesting work, I would get more trials and I would grow 15 faster and further as a lawyer. 16 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: was there anyone who strongly 17 advised you to go to the U.S. Attorney's office or was 18 particularly influential with you in making that decision? Page 33 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 19 MARYJO WHITE: No. I think I decided that on my own. 20 I obviously knew the kind of work they did from my clerkship 21 days. I certainly heard everyone say it is the best job they 22 ever had so there was no reason for me to doubt that, a sort of 23 collective response to working in that position, but I don't 24 actually remember any discussion with them -- I may have had it 25 but I don't remember discussion with anybody in particular SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 73 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 about making the move. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: were there former assistants at 3 Debevoise at the time? 4 MARYJO WHITE: There were former assistants at 5 Debevoise; Bob King and Bob Geniesse, I think Charlie Updike 6 might have been there as well. so they were older than me but, 7 you know, they had been assistants and obviously talked very 8 glowingly about the experience. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: And who was the U.S. Attorney 10 who hired you? 11 MARYJO WHITE: Bob Fiske. 12 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: How was it switching from 13 Debevoise where you did have a lot of responsibility including 14 trials, your own trials, to the U.S. Attorney's office? 15 MARYJO WHITE: I got one trial and I participated in 16 another trial. Look. It was like why didn't I do this sooner? 17 A died-and-gone-to-heaven reaction. Literally it was your own 18 caseload. I was in the criminal division. In those days in 19 the first year there in the General crimes unit, you know, the 20 cases were relatively small, they varied but you could easily 21 get your arms around a lot of cases which is what I did and you 22 had full responsibility for them from investigating them to 23 indicting them, to trying them if they went to trial and to 24 doing the appeal. And so, I felt like I was sort of meant for 25 this job. I mean not in an arrogant way but I enjoyed it SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 74 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 instantly. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, I have heard that you 3 indicted more cases than any other Assistant U.S. Attorney in 4 the general crimes unit in your first year. 5 MARYJO WHITE: I believe that was true. I don't know 6 if it is still true. Yes. I mean, look, I loved the job. 7 High energy. I think I am a pretty efficient person and so I 8 could kind of figure out how to get from A, to B, to c. Most 9 of the cases pled, in other words the defendant pled guilty to 10 the cases. I regarded the cases differently in terms of how 11 much work needed to be done before bringing the indictment. 12 once in a while I would be surprised like in a tax case and 13 they would go to trial and then I had to scramble a bit to be 14 sufficiently prepared to take them to trial but, you know, 15 again, things are a reflection of just mainly how much I liked 16 the job. 17 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so who were your supervisors in 18 general crimes and did you go to them for help? 19 MARYJO WHITE: sure. Three deputies; Shirah Neiman, 20 Don Buchwald and Tom Engel. In the U.S. Attorney's office then 21 and now I believe the first three trials you have a second 22 seat. I had both Tom Engel and Don Buchwald as two of my 23 second seaters, so obviously I relied heavily on them during Page 34 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 24 those trials. And when I had a question I would go to the 25 supervisors but I think, again, making sure the job, at least I SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 75 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 was told by the supervisors that I generally didn't have all 2 that many questions but when I did I went without any 3 hesitation. 4 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, how did you learn, when you 5 got to the U.S. Attorney's office and had never done any 6 criminal work, to do a bail hearing? To present something to a 7 grand jury? And you have sort of told us how you learned to 8 try a case but maybe you can tell us a little bit more about 9 that. 10 MARYJO WHITE: The first day I was there Peter Sudler 11 was my person and he wanted me to go that day to the bail 12 hearing and do it. I did decline to do that because I had not 13 a clue what to do. so, I had some modicum of thinking, I 14 needed to know a little bit more than nothing before I showed 15 up in federal court. But when I had a proceeding, that's when 16 I would ask questions. I would say, okay, this 1s a bail 17 hearing, this is a grand jury, what is it you do? so, what are 18 the various elements of what you need to know? Then I would 19 learn everything I could possibly learn about those elements 20 and then do it. 21 You learn by talking to people about what was involved 22 in the proceeding and I did a lot of them. I did a lot of 23 those different proceedings. Trials are different. I mean 24 trials you always, you know -- well, in everything you are 25 always learning but you are particularly always learning in SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 76 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 trials, no two are alike and, you know, that was a much more 2 intensive discussion with the senior assistants to learn how to 3 do that both during the trial and before the trial. 4 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: How many hours a day did you put 5 in, typically, in the U.S. Attorney's office? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Hard to tell. I would say 16? 14, 16 7 hours a day. 8 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: And you slept also at some 9 point? 10 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I always slept about four hours 11 a night and so, you know, that came in handy. 12 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: In the general crimes unit did 13 you work together with other assistants or was that not 14 something that occurred in those days? 15 MARYJO WHITE: Not as much as I think later on when 16 you typically had multiple assistants, at least two on trials 17 and major investigations. It was more solo in those days but 18 you clearly -- it was like a college-like atmosphere. It was 19 terrific. I mean, everybody helped everyone else when you 20 couldn't -- you know, when you were on trial and other matters 21 had to be covered, people did it willingly. That was part of 22 the experience. If there was ever an outlier among the 23 assistants who didn't do that they sort of had the brand on 24 their head and, you know, you weren't really a true southern 25 District of New York AUSA. so, it was very collegial, lots of SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 77 Page 35 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 talking to each other but the work was fairly solo. 2 JUDGE BARBARA JONES: How many other women AUSAS were 3 there in general crimes at the time? If you remember. 4 MARYJO WHITE: I don't remember but I would say there 5 were probably, I would say about six -- six to eight maybe, 6 eventually; Sarah Moss was there, Mary Ellen Kris was there, 7 Ronnie Mann was there, Denise cote was there, Barbara Jones was 8 not there, she was on the strike force. And Bob Fiske made a 9 point of, which is to his undying credit, of making a decision 10 when he became U.S. Attorney to seek out and hire women because 11 it wasn't an issue, there were qualified women to hire because 12 there were many, many, but to hire, if you could, about 50 13 percent women in the criminal division. And he, by and large, 14 did that and it transformed the U.S. Attorney's office in that 15 way. 16 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: This may be a difficult question 17 to answer but you were pretty much the solo woman litigator at 18 Debevoise and then in the U.S. Attorney's office there were 19 several women in just your general crimes class and other women 20 in the U.S. Attorney's office as well. Did that affect you in 21 any way? 22 MARYJO WHITE: I am sure it did. I mean, I think the 23 numbers matter. I think you are more comfortable in a setting 24 where you are not the only woman or one of two. I think you 25 may not even know that when you are in that setting because you SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 78 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 just -- it is what it is. But then you get to another setting 2 where there are more women with similar outlooks to you in 3 terms of you're all litigators, obviously, or one thing, and I 4 think it makes a sea change of difference in terms of your 5 comfort level. And, frankly, I think it makes it easier to 6 succeed when that's the environment that you are in and I think 7 to this day and I think you find almost a person, if not to a 8 person every woman, Assistant united States Attorney from that 9 era and probably after that, saying that the~'re best friends 10 for life were made in the U.S. Attorney's office. That was 11 very different. 12 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Letls switch to judges for a 13 minute. This is pretty early on for the profession and seeing 14 a lot of women or any women in court. what did you think was 15 the reaction or what was the reaction of judges when you came 16 into court? 17 MARYJO WHITE: They thought I was short. 18 I don't really, know, this may just be earth to me, I 19 didn't sense any resistance to that. And there had been women 20 before me in the U.S. Attorney's office and obviously from the 21 private sector as well. I don't recall at all, frankly, any 22 sort of inappropriate remarks or any barrier that I thought was 23 there. I may not have perceived it from my being, you know, 24 the prosecutor happened to be a woman. I think to some degree 25 you had judges who may well have taken it upon themselves to be SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 79 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 extra encouraging of women actually, if anything. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: You mentioned that you met some 3 of your best women friends during the time you were an 4 assistant and you have already named many of them. could you Page 36 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 5 tell us about a few of them and what they went on to do? 6 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. No, it was a remarkable group. 7 I mean they -- Barbara Jones, I mentioned before, obviously she 8 already established herself in the strike Force, later became 9 the first woman head of the organized crime unit in the U.S. 10 Attorney's office, went on to become a Federal District Judge. 11 Sarah Moss, another of my best friends to this day 12 also was, had a number of general counsel's jobs. she is the 13 general counsel of Estee Lauder and one of the women leaders in 14 the bar. 15 Denise cote became a Judge. 16 Mary Ellen Kris went on to not only law firm 17 experience but all kinds of other different jobs and made her 18 mark. 19 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: You know, you have already 20 talked about why you think it is good, was good for women to be 21 not just the one or only woman at some place but to have other 22 women around them. Is that what made the U.S. Attorney's 23 office such a great breeding ground for successful women or 24 were there other attributes? 25 MARYJO WHITE: I mean, I think that helped for sure SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 80 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 but I think it was really -- it was the nature of the job 2 because I think once you have had that experience not only is 3 it a great experience when you have it, it sticks with you for 4 life. It is an incredible foundation for whatever else you do 5 later and so I think it is really a combination of having other 6 terrific women around you doing the same thing but it is also 7 just the nature of that job which is why I think what Bob Fiske 8 did was just so important. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so there is no interview that 10 can be complete without asking you about your role on the 11 women's basketball team with a bunch of other women obviously 12 from the U.S. Attorney's office. Any particular memories about 13 that team? 14 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I took Barbara Jones' starting 15 position on the team which she has never let me forget. I 16 could shoot from a far distance, I had what was called a rocket 17 shot. I was terrific if I wasn't guarded but I'm 5 feet tall. 18 so, finally when the opponents woke ~p to the fact that they 19 put two people on me I couldn't possibly shoot because I was 20 completely overwhelmed height-wise but it was a terrific 21 experience. It was a great group of people, great group of 22 women. we did very well for a couple of years there. Again, I 23 think it is part of the bonding experience, I guess it would be 24 called today, among women. · 25 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Just for the sake of editorial SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 81 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 truth, I gather that when the success of that team occurred 2 there were some ringers on the team? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, there were some ringers on the 4 team. I think that is only appropriate if you want to win then 5 you have ringers and it was allowed. I wasn't one of the 6 ringers, I was one of the regular people. 7 JUDGE BARBARA JONES: Let's go back for a minute to 8 the U.S. Attorney's office and its structure. were there any 9 senior women in leadership positions when you got there? Page 37 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 10 MARYJO WHITE: sure. Neiman I mentioned, who was one 11 of the deputies of the criminal Division and I think if not the 12 first one of the first women in the criminal Division in the 13 U.S. Attorney's office. Pat Hynes was in the office, she 14 started in the civil division and was in the criminal division 15 at an executive position. Both of them are just tremendous, 16 gifted lawyers and mentors so that was very important. 17 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: could you tell us about, just 18 pick a couple of your favorite cases or trials as a young 19 assistant? 20 MARYJO WHITE: well, I guess my first trial is the 21 one -- everybody remembers their first trial -- which was in 22 front of Irving Ben cooper who was his own force of nature. 23 The defendant was Edith DeJesus and essentially what 24 she had done is to weigh the cocaine for her husband who was 25 obviously the major defendant in the case. she made the SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 82 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 mistake of weighing the cocaine in front of their 10-year-old 2 son which, rightly, deeply offended the trial judge and so he 3 was basically of a mindset that was helpful to the government I 4 would say -- not inappropriately -- but really wanted to make 5 sure that all of the evidence did come in. I remember I was 6 feeling -- a little bit guilty overstates it, but had some 7 sympathy which I kept and I frankly sort of kept and I think it 8 is a good thing to keep some sympathy for your defendants, or 9 most of them, until she took the stand and then lied to me as I 10 was asking her questions. Then my attitude hardened a bit. 11 she was convicted. I remember that I would not move to remand 12 her and so the senior assistant from whom I had gotten the case 13 came over to do that. why wouldn't I do that? Because I 14 thought the 10-year-old goes into foster care. she was 15 remanded. And I remember to this day the way the courtroom was 16 arranged and the prosecution table is in the front, the defense 17 table was behind you and I remember hearing the handcuffs 18 clicking on her wrists to this day. 19 I think what that brings home is just I caused this to 20 happen in some sense and how serious this business of criminal 21 trials is, any criminal trial. so, that's one that is probably 22 the most memorable in some way. 23 I guess the other -- you know there are a lot. 24 Everybody has all kinds of war stories about every trial 25 they've had. I guess the other was probably when I convicted SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 83 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 the, at least self-proclaimed propaganda minister of omega 7, 2 the Cuban terrorist group, for perjury for lying about two 3 Christmas cards that he had sent that were rather threatening 4 to a journalist and that was -- I had to call the teenage 5 daughter of the defendants -- something you obviously don't do 6 lightly -- in order to prove, in effect, chain of custody of 7 the typewriter that typed the message on the Christmas cards. 8 The presiding judge in that case, Judge Palmieri, was not happy 9 with me for having done that, he just thought that that was a 10 step too far until I explained it in the summation that one had 11 to do that in order to prove chain of custody. And then 12 afterwards he said -- actually I think he said it to the jury, 13 that he was glad to hear that there really was a compelling 14 reason to do that. And so, he was convicted, sentenced to -- Page 38 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 15 you know, it is a perjury case, two years, three years, 16 something like that, but it was the first omega 7 terrorist 17 that had been convicted. 18 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: I think you had one trial where 19 you created an exhibit that became a story that went around the 20 U.S. Attorney's office. Do you remember that? 21 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, I remember that one. That was 22 Matty Benjamin who was a stock swindler and I was chief of 23 appeals at the time I think I tried that case. It was a case 24 someone else investigated and the case was really, I believe, 25 was a criminal contempt charge because he was being tried on SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 84 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 more serious pending securities fraud charges in the case, and 2 he had been enjoined from moving money out of various bank 3 accounts. He proceeded to take $100,000 out of one of these 4 accounts, that was the contempt of court we were trying. we 5 had the money in a big baggie or whatever. I had been taught 6 by Don Buchwald actually, my first second seat in trials, that 7 you want your exhibits and the way you number them to actually 8 convey a message. so, I marked the exhibit Government Exhibit 9 100,000 which I think took the Judge a bit aback, Judge Haight. 10 He moved on, but so that's the story there. 11 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: YOUtouched on the notion of a 12 prosecutor using their discretion when you discussed your not 13 wanting to remand first the woman defendant in the first case 14 you talked about. When you got to the u.s. Attorney's office, 15 did you already have discretion? Did you learn discretion? 16 what did you figure out when you were there? 17 MARYJO WHITE: That's hard to say. I think it is 18 hard to learn discretion and judgment beyond a certain point. 19 You learn it to a degree. I think some of it you come with or 20 you don't, to some degree. When I later became U.S. Attorney 21 the most important quality I felt like I was interviewing 22 for -- I mean, there are highly qualified applicants across the 23 boards grade-wise, experience-wise, but how is that person 24 going to use that discretion? Are they going to be a cowboy? 25 Bad thing. Because there is, I think, nothing uglier than SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 85 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 seeing prosecutorial discretion abused. 2 And so, I think you certainly learned more about it. 3 I mean, I mentioned the Edith de Jesus story -- it never leaves 4 you that you are causing this person to serve time in jail. 5 That is sobering and I think if you think about it, you know, 6 it makes you think harder about your exercise of discretion but 7 I think, you know, in an office that typically has relatively 8 most people relatively young lawyers, I think the senior 9 lawyers including the U.S. Attorney for that matter need to be 10 quite vigilant for making sure everybody in the office, not 11 just those that come with it naturally, exercise good judgment 12 and discretion. 13 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: so when you got there, as 14 opposed to being a Debevoise, did you have a sense of the 15 tremendous power that you have? Did you think of it that way? 16 MARYJO WHITE: I certainly in a cause and effect way 17 thought of it that way and certainly I thought of it in the way 18 these are, you know, my own cases and so that's, I guess, you 19 know, a feeling of power in a sense, certainly more a feeling Page 39 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 20 of autonomy than it is power. 21 so, I think, yes, is the answer to that but I think 22 the recognition of having that power also brings with it, okay, 23 I need to wield this power with discretion, with compassion, as 24 well as with appropriate aggressiveness. 25 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: Last question in this area. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 86 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 I have already asked you about Judges but do you think 2 you were treated any differently because you were a woman by 3 juries? Other lawyers? FBI agents? Any of those? 4 MARYJO WHITE: It is hard to say you weren't because 5 I think you would be being naive if you said you weren't but, 6 again, I go back to I could not point to any instance where I 7 could say, you know, I am being treated differently. I think a 8 lot of that is also for women, how you react to the first sign 9 of being treated differently, particularly if you think it is 10 negatively differently that you just kind of roll with that 11 punch and go on and do your job and you sort of get past that 12 point. But, you know, I remember when I was in the private 13 sector once sort of playing a little bit to that to a jury. 14 so, you are certainly aware that you may be having a different 15 reaction on your audience because you are a woman. 16 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: YOUknow, I forgot one area. 17 You did become chief of Appeals. How would you ·compare that to 18 being a trial lawyer? 19 MARYJO WHITE: one of the things I had to be sort 20 of -- I don't want this to be taken the wrong way but I had to 21 be dragged into being chief of Appeals because I had really 22 come to the U.S. Attorney's office to investigate and try cases 23 and I wanted to continue to do that. so, what I did was I sort 24 of conditioned my acceptance into going to appeals on the 25 understanding that I would continue to try cases, which I did. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 87 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 They tended to be relatively important targets but small cases. 2 I mentioned that Matty Benjamin was one of those cases and I 3 had a couple of others. But, look. I loved being chief of 4 Appeals as well. I think it is a -- I loved arguing in the 5 court of Appeals which, you know, you typically argue your own 6 cases and, you know, I certainly didn't reach out and take 7 people's cases in the court of Appeals but probably I didn't 8 like -- there is nothing I enjoyed more my whole career than 9 arguing the court of Appeals in the circuit, even though later 10 on in my career I almost never did appeals by happenstance. 11 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Including trying cases? 12 MARYJO WHITE: Including trying cases. No, really, I 13 very much enjoyed -- and those were the days of Henry Friendly 14 and judges like that. You were asked difficult questions. I 15 always felt like -- I mean, you can always get a left field 16 question but really I had already thought of the questions and 17 how to answer them. I just found that a very challenging, 18 satisfying, however nerve-racking experience. 19 The other story I tell about being chief of Appeals, I 20 did that last before I went back into the private sector. And 21 when I left Debevoise & Plimpton I was known as the second 22 worst proof reader next to Francis Plimpton and when I came 23 back I was known as the best proof reader at 24 Debevoise & Plimpton. why? Because you are the last person on Page 40 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 25 the line and your name goes on every brief. so, that was a SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 88 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 side benefit. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, it is true that you are 3 short. I believe you were also short at the court of Appeals 4 when you got up to the podium? 5 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. Yes. 6 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Is there any particular event 7 you recall about that? 8 MARYJO WHITE: No. Not about being short other than 9 you had to see over the podium, obviously. I do recall it 10 during one particularly long argument where we lost the -- I 11 lost the appeal, Patrice Mespoulede was the case. Irving 12 Kaufman was the presiding judge and it was a double jeopardy 13 kind of question where I was having to argue Henry Friendly's 14 decision either was wrong or didn't apply in these 15 circumstances. And I had some, you know, minor illness that I 16 was just coming back from so I was sort of holding myself up at 17 the podium and let the judges know that I, indeed, was doing 18 that. But it was one of the best arguments I had, frankly. 19 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Despite your disposition. 20 MARYJO WHITE: Despite my disposition. 21 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, you left after three years 22 I think? 23 MARYJO WHITE: Three and a half. 24 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Three and a half; yet you had 25 loved the office. was there a reason you felt you should leave SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 89 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 after three and a half years? 2 MARYJO WHITE: In those days the average tenure was 3 about three to four years. That's not the whole answer for 4 that. Debevoise had tried to ~et me to come back earlier and I 5 had declined because I was having such a great time. You know, 6 I think I -- you know, again, I went to appeals with about a 7 year left in that three and a half years, did continue to try 8 cases but I, you know, undoubtedly incorrectly but had decided, 9 given the course of my trajectory in the U.S. Attorney's 10 office, I learned an awful lot from that experience and really 11 was ready to move on. If I had stayed I would have needed to 12 figure out the next phase in the U.S. Attorney's office which 13 is not always obvious or so easy to do once you have tried a 14 lot of cases and been the chief of Appeals. 15 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: You went right back to 16 Debevoise. was there any other thought in your mind about 17 going anywhere else? 18 MARYJO WHITE: I had a couple firms reach out to me. 19 The one that I really considered again was Paul Weiss where I 20 had also been a summer assooiate but, you know, Debevoise I 21 have always thought is a special firm. 22 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, when you went back to 23 Debevoise, I think that was 1981, how soon after you went back 24 did you become a partner? 25 MARYJO WHITE: I think I became a partner -- I think SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 90 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) Page 41 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 1 I became a partner effective January 1,1983 and was voted to 2 become a partner sometime in 1982. 3 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: what was it like to be, I guess 4 the second woman partner at the firm after Barbara Roberts? 5 MARYJO WHITE: I think at that time there were about 6 75 partners at Debevoise, there were two of us. You notice 7 that in the partnership lunch every week. I didn't attend all 8 that often but I did attend and you notice that. I remember 9 one story that -- and I guess this is responsive, when I was 10 nine months pregnant which I was in 1986 -- 1985-1986 that I 11 was -- I think I was in charge of associate salaries or 12 something so I was presenting it to the partners, whatever 13 recommendation was on raising salaries, whatever, and the 14 presiding partners, George Lindsay said: Mary Jo, would you 15 stand? And I said: George, I am standing. so, that sort of 16 broke up the moment. I am not sure that 1s a woman-related 17 question or just a height-related question but I do think it 18 brings home 1n any group how supportive they are of women, 19 however principled, high-minded they are that in, ~ou know, a 20 group of two women and 75 men the men are more comfortable in 21 that setting than the two women and occasionally there can be 22 an off-color joke or somebody that nobody thinks anything of 23 but hits you differently when you are a woman and particularly 24 when you are one of two women in _that group of 80 men. 25 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Well, let me ask you this: Do SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 91 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 you have any advice for women who still find themselves in that 2 position today? There still aren't that many women partners, 3 as I understand. 4 MARYJO WHITE: No, but it is better when it is more 5 than two. 10 is better than two. And there is a stubborn 17 6 percent ceiling of sorts that seems to have settled in on the 7 big firms for how many women partners there are. 8 First, get more women. Do everything you can to 9 promote the young women in your firms so that there are more 10 women. If you find yourself in a situation where you are the 11 only -- and I still have situations today where I have, you 12 know, the only woman or I am one of two out of 40 or whatever 13 may be but yourself, I don't know how else to say it. I don't 14 know how you have gotten where you have gotten without a lot of 15 skill, a lot of hard work, presumably you have a fair amount of 16 confidence. You just need to relate to the situation on the 17 merits, as I woula say, and do your thing. 18 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Let's switch this for a minute 19 to you as a partner who will have both male and female 20 associates working for you. Did you feel any differently 21 supervising women as opposed to men? 22 MARYJO WHITE: I actually -- no is the answer to 23 that. I think it is probably a failing on my part. I think 24 there were others of my woman partners at Debevoise, Barbara 25 Robertson we have mentioned, Lorna Schofield is now a U.S. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 92 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 District Judge, Mary Beth Hogan now who is the co-chair of 2 litigation at Debevoise who I think made more special efforts 3 to bring along, mentor the female associates not to the 4 exclusion of the men but nevertheless really made a special 5 effort. I made some effort, I don't mean to suggest I didn't, Page 42 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 6 but I think I basically regarded male and female associates the 7 same. 8 (Pause) 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Mary Jo, do you want to finish 10 that answer? 11 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. one of the things I remember 12 doing, I did a fair amount of internal investigations for 13 clients in the '80s now and I was partner and when we were 14 doing most of them anyway I actually made a point of having 15 male and female associates who did the interviews because I was 16 concerned about the audience, you know, in other words I wasn't 17 concerned about having two women do the interviews from my 18 point of view whatsoever but I was concerned about those -- the 19 clients and the third-party witnesses might have an adverse 20 reaction to women. And so, I don't think Barbara Robinson and 21 Mary Beth Hogan and Lorna Schofield employed that kind of MO 22 because the thought is to get used to two-women, three-women, 23 an all-woman team. I was probably a little bit slower to come 24 there kind of waiting for society to catch up. 25 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, you mentioned that you had SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 93 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 your son at the same time that you were a partner at Debevoise 2 and that would have been in 1986. Did you ever -- first of 3 all, how much time did you take off and did you ever work 4 part-time either before or after that birth? 5 MARYJO WHITE: I never worked part-time. I do 6 remember when I knew I was pregnant which would have been 1985, 7 I spoke to one of my women associates, Barbara Woodhouse, 8 brilliant lawyer, clerked at supreme court, taught at Penn 9 State I think, she came back to the law after she had her kids, 10 she already had 5-year-old, 10-year-olds at the time and I 11 remember what she said when I told her. she said: 12 congratulations. You no longer do anything well. And what she 13 meant by that obviously is you are never at home as much as you 14 would like to be, you are never able to work as much as you 15 would like to because you are having to balance things. 16 I also remember very clearly, I was 38 I think at the 17 time, and I was partner and I remember thinking it would be 18 easier to be a mother as an associate and take advantage of 19 part-time or more easily take advantage of part-time but it is 20 better to be a partner when you are pregnant because you just 21 say -- and I did -- I'm not flying, I'm not going to whatever, 22 and totally in that period of time did the work I thought I 23 wanted to do. Did not travel. Explained to my male partners 24 I'm not going to Cleveland because I'm not flying while I'm 25 pregnant. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 94 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 And then, afterwards, I didn't know how long I would 2 stay out. I ended up staying out only six weeks. The reason 3 for that was that my husband and I -- I don't know if it was a 4 mistake or not, probably not, but we hired a baby nurse after 5 our son was about 5 weeks old. As soon as that happened it was 6 like I was the third wheel so I think that had me go back to 7 work sooner than I would have otherwise. I lived very close to 8 the firm and so I came home at noon and came home early and 9 that kind of thing but I never worked part-time. 10 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, let me ask you this at the Page 43 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 11 risk of being indelicate: Did you decide to start your family 12 when you were a partner or did it just all happen that way? 13 MARYJO WHITE: I think it all happened that way. I 14 mean I certainly, you know, there is a lot of discussion about 15 people waiting until they're partners. I am absolutely not 16 conscious of that at all. It doesn't mean it wasn't operating 17 in some unconscious way, I suppose. 18 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: we talked before about the 19 part-time program which I think you said you were instrumental 20 in starting up and administering. How did most of the partners 21 at the firm react to that? was it generally accepted? Were 22 there a few people who didn't like 1t? some of the male 23 partners, some of the female partners? Did it take a while for 24 it become accepted at the firm? 25 MARYJO WHITE: I think it took a while in some SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 95 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 corners to be accepted. I think the principle was accepted 2 pretty much from the beginning. Again, as I mentioned, I think 3 at least Debevoise was a firm that they didn't know exactly 4 what to expect with more and more women and senior women in 5 particular coming into the work force and so they responded 6 quite constructively to whatever the demand characteristics of 7 more women in the firm really dictated, I think, but certainly 8 there was skepticism on the part of some. I think there is no 9 question that you have to work very hard at making sure the 10 quality of the work stays as high as it can. I think you have 11 to work very hard to make sure you are not, in effect, 12 violating the agreement as to how many hours, how many days a 13 week. work has a way of kind of overtaking that so I think it 14 is a challenge at both ends for the firm, really all ends 15 the clients, the firms and also the person who is on the 16 part-time program. But over time I think it, you know, I mean 17 it took time but really was quite successful. 18 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Do you recall during this time 19 period discussions where maybe it was a discussion for whether 20 someone was potentially partnershiR material or just evaluation 21 of an associate where discussion of a part-time came up, the 22 fact that they had worked part-time? 23 MARYJO WHITE: I don't recall it. It might well not 24 have come up in those words if it did come up just because the 25 idea is that, you know, it is something that the firm has SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 96 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 established and certainly should not ever be considered a 2 ne~ative and we did have, as I mentioned, Debevoise, the 3 ability to become a part-time partner as well as part-time 4 associate. And you always have discussions in partnership 5 meetings about commitment -- commitment to the work of the 6 firm -- and I think one always had to question whether negative 7 comments on someone's commitment sometimes didn't relate to 8 that. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, let's go back to your having 10 your son and you went back to work after six weeks. what was 11 it like, though? was it different once you had your son, 12 working? 13 MARYJO WHITE: It is different. sure it is different 14 because your emotional grounding is different. Your time is 15 split so it becomes kind of harder to do both jobs as Barbara Page 44 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 16 Woodhouse said and you have to just figure out the best 17 strategy for you to be able to be comfortable with the balance 18 you strike. I mean, I still continued to work very hard. 19 Again, I sleep four hours a night so I had a few extra hours on 20 some people in trying to effect that balance. You know, I 21 never, going forward, I think. 22 -- flip tape -- 23 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Mary Jo I think you wanted to go 24 on with that last answer. 25 MARYJO WHITE: one of the things that my husband John SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 97 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 and I did after our son was born was to sort of make an 2 informal pact that while he was young we wouldn't travel -- we 3 would try not to travel at the same time so one of us would 4 always be home. And I remember when he was -- David was nine 5 months old, literally nine months old. we were both, for the 6 first time, scheduled to be away the same night; John was on 7 business somewhere, I think I was supposed to interview at 8 Harvard for the firm and at the last minute I cancelled so I 9 would be home and that night David walked for the first time. 10 so, you know, we would have both missed that moment if we 11 hadn't kept that pact. 12 The point of the story is just to show you can't get 13 back the time you are not there. 14 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: well, we have talked a lot about 15 your being a working mom during this period at Debevoise from 16 1983 to 1990, let's talk a little bit about the work you were 17 doing. Do you have any cases in particular, memorable cases, 18 pro bono cases that you particularly enjoyed or were challenged 19 by? 20 MARYJO WHITE: I had actually an early trial, very 21 early trial, actually breach of an oil contract and we actually 22 represented Clark oil, a corporation which was the plaintiff. 23 The whole case sort of turned on these very obscure accounting 24 regulations and the case was assigned to Judge Edward Weinfeld, 25 one of the most thoughtful, thorough, painstaking Judges. I SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 98 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 remember this: He, two weeks before Christmas, decided and 2 called up the parties and said we are going to trial on 3 December 23rd or something like that which obviously wasn't the 4 most welcome news someone got. we scrambled around to prepare. 5 Last minute he -- as he often did, actually, I'm told -­ 6 reassigned the bench trial, reassigned the case to Irving Ben 7 cooper who in terms of judicial temperament and how he went 8 about his job could not have been more different to try a case 9 in front of. so, one had to sort of completely redo strategy, 10 etc. 11 I ran the trial. we won the trial as I remember but 12 what I remember most about it was we were losing the case, I 13 felt with the Judge, until I had done something with the notes 14 of the CEO of the defendant to show that he was not being 15 truthful or that he otherwise was doing what made our client -­ 16 made the defendant liable. And so, I walked the Judge through 17 these handwritten notes and his eyes just lit up because he 18 kind of saw how it was pieced together and sort of saw it as a 19 mystery unfolding before his eyes, if I can say it that way. 20 And then after that he was totally on board with the plaintiffs Page 45 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 21 side of the case, our side of the case. so, that one I 22 remember. 23 I did a number of investigations, internal 24 investigations, major ones of different kinds. Those are all 25 important and memorable. I also participated in the Brenda SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 99 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Berkman pro bono case which is basically a case, pro bono case 2 against the fire department trying to deal with the physical 3 exam portion of the test to make 1t more possible for qualified 4 women firefighters to get in the fire department. That was 5 successful and quite memorable. 6 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, you leave Debevoise again in 7 1990, is that right? 8 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: And was that part of your plan? 10 MARYJO WHITE: No. It wasn't part of the plan 11 although I do remember when I became a partner, and this is no 12 commentary on Debevoise or partnership in general but I do 13 remember kind of going into my office and not coming out for 14 two days thinking my life was over, I was going to be a partner 15 for life and I like to move around so, you know, there was the 16 thought that I would be anything for my whole life is not that 17 attractive to me but, nevertheless -- nevertheless -- the 18 assumption is you do it until maybe forever or until something 19 else. 20 Andy Maloney, who I went to work for was U.S. 21 Attorney, a great U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of New 22 York, needed to replace his chief assistant and so we were put 23 together and the chemistry worked. He did have to ask me three 24 times before I agreed to go. The thought was I might become 25 his successor. You never know about those things. President SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 100 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Bush was the president at the time and so you know, after 2 saying no three times, I said yes. 3 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: And you were willing to go to 4 the Eastern District rather than the southern District? 5 MARYJO WHITE: Yes, although I got a lot of, you 6 know, comments about that. I think 1n some ways it was a 7 little -- I liked the edginess of that. Believe it or not that 8 is edgy in New York. Attractive. Kind of part of the 9 attraction of the job. 10 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Just to go back for one moment 11 to your relatively long time period at Debevoise before you 12 left to become Andy Maloney's chief assistant, were you doing 13 mainly white collar? 14 MARYJO WHITE: It was a mixture of civil and white 15 collar. white collar meaning any kind of enforcement work -­ 16 SEC, Department bf Justice -- but there was also just a fair 17 amount of civil litigation. I did a lot of work actually for 18 the accounting firms, Price Waterhouse in those days, in 19 particular Arthur Andersen. Actually, a jury trial that I 20 participated in at Debevoise as a lawyer I represented Arthur 21 Andersen in and accountants liability case that was pure civil, 22 not enforcement. so, it was a real mixture. 23 THE JUROR: Did you feel qualified because of doing 24 that work or more qualified, should we say, to take over as 25 chief Assistant in the U.S. Attorney's office because of that Page 46 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 101 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 experience? 2 MARYJO WHITE: Yes is the answer. I also answer the 3 question yes that I was better qualified to be a partner at 4 Debevoise because I was at the U.S. Attorney's office. I think 5 that's the mix of your experience. I had great and I think 6 deep and broad experiences in both the private and public 7 sectors and I think each sector and myself benefited 8 tremendously from that. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: was it as much fun being the 10 chief assistant in an office as it was being a line assistant? 11 MARYJO WHITE: I don't think anything is as fun as 12 being a line assistant including being U.S. Attorney in the 13 southern District of New York which I was for nine years. 14 Although a fantastic job, chief Assistant and Acting U.S. 15 Attorney in the Eastern District fantastic job, but I don't 16 think anything quite matches doing your own criminal cases as a 17 line assistant. But, it is a terrific job and there were 18 terrific cases in the Eastern District when I was over there 19 that I was quite involved in. Eastern Airlines was indicted 20 while I was there, I was very involved in that case. very 21 involved behind the scenes in the John Gatti case as well. 22 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, how different was it being a 23 chief ~ssistant with, arguably, And¥ Maloney and~ couple other 24 executives as your partners than being a partner 1n a large 25 firm such as Debevoise? SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 102 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 MARYJO WHITE: Well -- 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: How different is the role? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Personally, I don't think there is 4 anything as satisfying as being in the public sector. I don't 5 think there is anything as being satisfying as being in the 6 U.S. Attorney's office at least in New York when you compare 7 that to even other public sector jobs. I think partnerships at 8 certainly large law firms you operate at the partnership level 9 relatively autonomously. sometimes there is more than one 10 partner on a case, obviously. In the U.S. Attorney's office, 11 you know, it is more collegial. It is more collegial, I don't 12 mean that in a negative way vis-a-vis the law firms, it is just 13 the nature of the job as you are discussing with more people 14 the major cases than I think happens in a law firm. 15 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Let me go back to Andy Maloney 16 for a minute. He asked you to become his chief assistant. How 17 did you know Andy Maloney? 18 MARYJO WHITE: Andy Maloney -- as he would say but he 19 deserves it: A legend in his own time. A fantastic trial 20 lawyer in the southern District of New York, actually. My 21 friends Barbara Jones and Gary Naftalis knew him very well and 22 I think both of them recommended me to him as a possible chief 23 Assistant. 24 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so you talked about being behind 25 the scenes certainly with strategy and, in particular, you SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 103 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 mentioned the Gatti case. Did you miss not being the trial Page 47 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 2 lawyer? 3 MARYJO WHITE: Yes and no. I think I like trials. I 4 think they have the highest highs and lowest lows as I have 5 said before. I love the strategic part of trials whether I am 6 doing it or not myself but, sure, anybody would give their, you 7 know, right arm and a few other parts to try the John Gatti 8 case. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, you eventually became the 10 interim U.S. Attorney when Andy Maloney left. Did that change 11 your day-to-day existence at the U.S. Attorney's office? was 12 it more stressful? 13 MARYJO WHITE: Actually, yes, it was more stressful. 14 I mean, it actually came as a surprise to me the difference 15 when he left because we were really doing everything to~ether. 16 The joke around the office -- it was a joke but I was kind of 17 running the office as chief assistant and then when you all of 18 a sudden are the last person on the line making all the major 19 decisions you see how different that is than it is being; 20 however active a chief assistance is, you are still the chief 21 assistant, not responsible ultimately for anything that happens 22 in the office. And so, you know, I was surprised by the 23 difference in my life. Terrific job. I was there only six 24 months actually as the acting U.S. Attorney. Good experience 25 and transition to when I became the southern District u.s. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 104 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Attorney. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, in the Eastern District of 3 New York were there a lot of female Assistant U.S. Attorneys in 4 the leadership when you came in as both chief Assistant and 5 then Interim U.S. Attorney? what was the reaction in terms of 6 you being a woman? I don't know, you may have been the first 7 woman -- 8 MARYJO WHITE: I think I was the first woman as chief 9 Assistant but you had a lot of senior women in the U.S. 10 Attorney's office in the Eastern District when I came in; well 11 established, among them Cathy Palmer who had tried major, major 12 drug cases, very well known. Leslie Caldwell who later became 13 involved in the Enron task force and is now the Assistant 14 Attorney General of the criminal Division in the Justice 15 Department, very well established there. Loretta Lynch, both a 16 young assistant when I came into the Eastern District, 17 obviously now the Attorney General of the united States. I 18 did, while I was there, have a hand in promoting her to a 19 supervisory position. I think some people were surprised that 20 Andy Maloney would pick a woman as his chief Assistant U.S. 21 Attorney which he took a lot of pleasure in, frankly, I think. 22 You know, considering himself or others considering him kind of 23 a bit of a chauvinist kind of late in the game chose a woman. 24 we had a terrific relationship and friendship. But, I think I 25 was well accepted pretty much from the beginning other than the SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 105 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 fact I came from the southern District of New York. There was 2 a, you know, pretty strong rivalry between the two districts. 3 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: So you talked about your great 4 relationship with Andy Maloney and how closely you worked 5 together when you were there. I gather you would describe him 6 as a mentor? Page 48 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 7 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. And I would describe him as 8 possibly the only mentor I ever had. Again, it is a function 9 of the times when I came into the profession. Now I think 10 mentors both take their jobs much more seriously to function as 11 mentors and there are more of them for women lawyers and other 12 lawyers but, yeah, basically he stayed longer than he thought 13 he would as U.S. Attorney and so I was.there with him for two 14 and a half years and watching him function as the U.S. Attorney 15 in a major U.S. Attorney's office with major cases and he was 16 an exceptionally strong U.S. Attorney. 17 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, throughout your career and 18 now we are up to the Eastern District portion of it, you must 19 have experienced stress whether at Debevoise or in public 20 service. what do you do to handle stress? 21 MARYJO WHITE: sometimes it gets beyond thriving on 22 it entirely. You know it is a reality of the job you have 23 chosen which mostly has positive energizing qualities about it. 24 You do have outlets with friends, you have outlets with, in my 25 case running, going to Yankee games. You get a way from it a SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 106 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 little bit but I think you don't do the jobs I have done unless 2 you certainly can handle stress but I think beyond that thrive 3 on it a fair amount. 4 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: All right. so, the job of the 5 united States Attorney in the southern District of New York 6 comes up in 1993 and there had never been a woman as U.S. 7 Attorney in the southern District of New York. T~ll us a 8 little bit about how you decided you were going to throw your 9 hat in the ring and what the process was like. 10 MARYJO WHITE: well, I mean, again, I went to the 11 Eastern District with some expectation that I might be 12 appointed if I was lucky enough by President Bush -- 13 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: To the Eastern District. 14 MARYJO WHITE: To the Eastern District, yes. A 15 couple of things happened. Andy Maloney stayed longer than I 16 thought he was going to and he thought he was going to. 17 President Bush lost the election to President Clinton and so 18 whatever plan there may have been for me to be U.S. Attorney in 19 the Eastern District under President Bush, obviously that 20 wasn't going to pan out. 21 I wanted to be U.S. Attorney. I applied to senator 22 Moynihan's selection committee and that's kind of how the 23 appointment process worked, the senator and the party of the 24 president recommended to the president who the U.S. Attorney 25 would be and by and large the recommendation was taken. so, I SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 107 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 applied to the committee to be U.S. Attorney in the Eastern 2 District, not southern District. I certainly had some people 3 saying I should apply for the Southern District U.S. Attorney's 4 job but I felt, frankly out of loyalty to the Eastern District 5 and I had been doing the job for two and a half years, that 6 that was the office I ~hould apply to. And so I went through 7 that process and ultimately, the forces being what they were 8 there was lots of talk about my perhaps applying to the 9 southern District instead. Zach carter, who ultimately became 10 the·u.s. Attorney in the Eastern District, was a well thought 11 of, rightly so candidate for the Eastern District; he was from Page 49 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 12 the Eastern District, I was from the southern District. I 13 mentioned that rivalry before. But, I resisted those efforts 14 for quite some time although Andy Maloney would say I suffered 15 a flesh wound only as a result of resisting those efforts. 16 so, at the end of the process senator Moynihan called 17 me to say I have good news for you. we want you to be U.S. 18 Attorney but we want you to come across the bridge and become 19 the U.S. Attorney in the southern District of New York. You 20 have that white collar experience that is so important in the 21 southern District. And I had already spoken to my husband 22 anticipating this call because I had gotten some heads up on it 23 and he said don't you dare turn down the southern District of 24 New York and I didn't turn down the southern District of New 25 York and obviously was thrilled to be nominated. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 108 Mary Jo White - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: At this point, 1993, did you 2 sense that there was any backlash or prejudice or any kind of 3 feelings that people had about you as a woman becoming first 4 U.S. Attorney? 5 MARYJO WHITE: I could say two things about that. 6 one, in this instance I was probably advantaged by 7 being a woman in terms of being selected to be U.S. Attorney in 8 the southern District. I think the Clinton Administration was 9 very focused on diversity. obviously Zach carter became the 10 U.S. Attorney in the Eastern District of New York, an African 11 American. A woman? obviously. so, I think that feature was 12 probably quite helpful to me in that process. I think I am 13 qualified as a number of other people are qualified for the 14 ]Ob. 15 once I was appointed, look, I am sure that because 16 there had never had been and guess still hasn't been another 17 woman as the U.S. Attorney in the southern District of New York 18 that, yes, I think among sort of the old school there would be 19 like, How can a woman do this job? I think the FBI is a pretty 20 traditional organization. was there some resistance there? 21 Maybe they didn't show it to me and I think, you know, again, I 22 think the key for women in those kinds of positions is just do 23 your job. I mean, understand you may have some skepticism out 24 there that is not vocalized related to gender and you just do 25 your job and go forward. I do remember two or three years into SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTER?, P.C. (212) 805-0300 109 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 the position, I was there for nine years I mentioned I think, 2 Milton Gould, one of the brahmas of the legal community at some 3 function coming up to me saying, you know, you are just doing a 4 fantastic job and none of us thought a woman could do that. 5 so, obviously that prejudice was out there or that 6 skepticism was out there. 7 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: At that point in time, though, 8 that was the old, old boys network? 9 MARYJO WHITE: That was the old, old boys network, 10 absolutely right. so, I didn't feel that. I was surprised to 11 get the comment so that shows you how much I did not think it 12 was a factor . 13 JUDGE BARBARATONES: so, if you can, would you 14 describe your leadership style when you were the U.S. Attorney? 15 A lot of U.S. Attorneys would like to try the one case while 16 they're u.s. Attorney. I don't think you tried cases. Page 50 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 17 MARYJO WHITE: No, I didn't try cases. You know, I 18 had thought about trying either a small case which is I think 19 in some ways kind of strange for the U.S. Attorney to try if 20 you are the defendant in a small case you don't welcome that 21 either, and I also actually seriously thought about trying, 22 leading the trial team in the big terror trial, the blind 23 sheikh Abdel Rachman. It turned out to be a nine-month trial 24 so it is very good that I didn't do that because I mean, look. 25 The U.S. Attorney's office of the southern District of New York SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 110 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 is extraordinarily busy with very high-profile, high-priority 2 cases. It is very hard to justify taking yourself out of 3 circulation for certainly nine months but for any significant 4 period of time. 5 I wish in some ways I had been able to try some cases 6 while I was there but really from before I got there we had had 7 the bombing of the world Trade center. one of the unexpected 8 priorities of my tenure at U.S. Attorney was international 9 terrorism and probably spent 60 percent of my personal time 10 doing that. I, in effect, was the supervisor of what became 11 our Terrorism unit, actually the first terrorism unit before 12 9/11 in any u.s. Attorney's office. 13 Leadership style, first I think the southern District 14 had been well served by having its alumni come back and being 15 the U.S. Attorney more often than not. They know the office. 16 That helps tremendously. It helps their credibility within the 17 office. I am very hands on. I believe in taking the bullets 18 for the staff in the office whenever you can and pitching in 19 wherever you can on what I used to call the "bet the office" 20 cases. There would be 10 a year I would get particularly. 21 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: Tell us what you did when you 22 had one of those cases. 23 MARYJO WHITE: Not always welcomed by the staff. 24 when we had one of those cases I would -- well, in the 25 case of terrorism trials I tended to be there in the courtroom SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 111 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 most of the time but in some of the other trials I would 2 basically read the Min-u-script at night and offer suggestions 3 saying, look, here is what I think we need to shore up. Here 4 is the point that the defense was trying to make that might not 5 have been so obvious that I wanted to be sure the assistants 6 were focused on it. I tried to do it in an unobtrusive way. I 7 think it is -- one has mixed feelings if you are the assistant 8 receiving the personal attention of the of the U.S. Attorney. 9 As people would say, perhaps not the highlight of your day or 10 year or week is having the U.S. Attorney take a special 11 interest in your case but I tried to be and I think I was 12 regarded as adding some value and, you know, trying to be very 13 supportive. 14 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: In the terrorism cases would you 15 say that you took an even stronger role? 16 MARYJO WHITE: I did take a stronger role in 17 terrorism cases, some of the white collar cases as well which, 18 obviously, is a major staple and high priority of the southern 19 District and I think extraordinarily important from a 20 deterrence point of view. But the terrorism cases, no question 21 about it. I really perceived from if not before, from the day Page 51 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 22 I arrived in the office what I thought was a long-term lethal 23 threat from fundamental Islamist terrorists who were bent on 24 destroying the united States, attacking Americans in the united 25 states and abroad and that is a very heavy responsibility. I SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 112 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 mean, it really came about for the southern District and for me 2 because the Trade center was bombed and at the same time there 3 was the plot -- fortunately foiled plot to blow up the bridges 4 and the tunnels connecting New York and New Jersey, the U.N., 5 the FBI building in Manhattan. The combination of what we 6 learned from those two trials convinced me that this was an 7 extraordinarily dangerous long-term situation and so after that 8 second trial, the day of terror trial and they were both 9 very -- and the bombing of the Trade center in 1993, they were 10 both very early on in my tenure. so, in 1995 I formed the 11 first Terrorism unit, as I mentioned, in any U.S. Attorney's 12 office really not thinking of having another terrorism case but 13 because I did not want to lose the knowledge we had gained from 14 those two cases and I wanted to follow that evidence, really 15 threat information as well as evidence wherever it took us in 16 order to, in part, to share it with other authorities in other 17 parts of the government. 18 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: so did this unit, the terrorism 19 unit function as an intelligence gathering unit as much as a 20 prosecutorial unit? 21 MARYJO WHITE: I think it was certainly both, I think 22 appropriately done, because I think investigation does involve 23 gathering intelligence and we ended up, sadly, doing more 24 terrorism cases. we did the Manila Air plot case, a horrific 25 plot to blow up jumbo jets coming back from southeast Asia that SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 113 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 Ramsey Yousef, one of the masterminds of the world Trade center 2 also was involyed in. we did the east Africa bombing cases 3 that occurred in 1998. we indicted Osama Bin Laden twice and, 4 really, the entire al Qaeda leadership was indicted in the East 5 African Embassy bombing case. 6 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: And to explain, when you 7 indicted Osama Bin Laden it was obviously before the world 8 Trade center bombing and I -- 9 MARYJO WHITE: Before 9/11. 10 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Before 9/11, right. And was 11 that indictment under seal? 12 MARYJO WHITE: We indicted him -- yes. We indicted 13 him in 1998, I think June of '98 -- '96 or '98, I will have to 14 figure that out. And again, Bin Laden came on our radar screen 15 as a result of the investigations we continued to do out of 16 this Terrorism unit. We had some information suggesting -- I 17 think the way we came to know about him was he supplied or was 18 there some evidence that he supplied some of the money for the 19 Manila Air plot? so, we found some information suggesting he 20 supplied some of the money to Yousef and those plotting the 21 Manila Air bombing, that's how we learned about him. I mean, 22 it is also, by the way, how we learned about Khalid sheikh 23 Mohammed, the later mastermind of 9/11. We did indict him also 24 in Manila Air plot. sadly, never captured before 9/11. 25 so, we didn't know much about Bin Laden, we just knew SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. Page 52 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt (212) 805-0300 114 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 he was involved. our philosophy was, our strategy was we would 2 bring into this net to prosecute, if necessary, any player in 3 the terrorist network really on theory of neutralizing as many 4 dangerous terrorists as we could. we indicted him again. That 5 indictment was under seal because there were efforts made to 6 figure out how to capture him. sadly, that never happened 7 before 9/11. We indicted him also for the East African Embassy 8 bombings later in 1998 and he remained a fugitive in that case. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: What we haven't talked about in 10 terms of your leadership role and style was your relationship 11 with law enforcement agencies; FBI, secret service, IRS. could 12 you talk a little bit about that? 13 MARYJO WHITE: I mean I think that I had actually 14 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Mostly male by the way? 15 MARYJO WHITE: Mostly male. Not all, but mostly 16 male. I think I had excellent relationships with the other 17 agencies. I mean, look. I think it is all -- we are all on 18 the same team, really, and I think I am as much of an 19 investigator as I am lawyer so I was always, hopefully, in a 20 good way involved in discussing investigations with law 21 enforcement agencies. After 9711 I was in the command center 22 for weeks on end. 23 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Didn't you go to the command 24 center virtually within hours? 25 MARYJO WHITE: Yes. I went to the command center SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 115 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 within hours of 9/11. Yes, I did. And I also, you know when 2 Ramsey Yousef when he was captured -- he fled after the 1993 3 bombing of the Trade center. Manila Air plot occurred, 4 fortunately foiled for the most part. He was later, right in 5 that time frame, captured in Pakistan, flown back to the united 6 States, went over to the command center then he was brought 7 into FBI headquarters. so, I had an extraordinarily close 8 relationship with the FBI. 9 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, we talked a lot about the 10 terrorism cases. what about the political corruption cases, 11 were they different in any way? was there some pressure, more 12 pressure, more stress? How did you handle those? 13 MARYJO WHITE: I don't think there is any sort of 14 category of crime that's more important than corruption cases 15 because it corrupts the whole system, obviously. And so -- and 16 the pressure is -- I mean it is -- you know, I think they are 17 some of the most difficult cases to make. We did a number of 18 really significant cases in the northern counties actually in 19 the southern District of New York as well as some cases in 20 Manhattan and the Bronx too, but I think that they always have 21 to be at the top of the priority list, I think, of the U.S. 22 Attorney's office and they obviously are today. 23 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: You had a lot of media attention 24 in this job, presumably there was a lot of media attention in 25 the Eastern District when they had high profile case -- SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 116 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 certainly Gotti. Did you have any special way that you handled 2 the media? Page 53 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 3 MARYJO WHITE: You know, no. I think I handled the 4 media in a very strai~htforward, honest way. I also was known 5 as "No comment white,' I think by the media, not so fondly 6 known as. I mean, I believe in not leaking. I think it is 7 very important to those you are investigating. You may well 8 find no violation of law. It can compromise an investigation 9 to have it leaked but I think you also need to understand the 10 press' job and that they need information. so, one of the 11 greatest things I think I did for myself, the office and the 12 media, was to hire Marvin smilon who had been a long time 13 reporter for The Daily News, The Times and The New York Post 14 and understood what was needed and also understood what 15 couldn't be discussed. And so, we tried to be as responsive as 16 we could be within the bounds of what we were allowed to do. 17 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: Let me go back for a minute to 18 pressures, even if you don't want to use that word, but can you 19 give any general advice for prosecutors on how to deal with 20 political pressure which happens from time to time in the 21 history of every certainly sitting prosecutor? 22 MARYJO WHITE: I think it kind of goes back to that 23 discretion,. that judgment, but I also call it the moral compass 24 that I think you have to have as a prosecutor or, frankly, any 25 kind of lawyer but any public sector kind of lawyer and you SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 117 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 have to know you are going to get pressures, you are going to 2 get political pressures, you are going to get other pressures 3 to do whatever the agenda is of those trying to pressure you 4 and you should know they're there because I think you need to 5 know that for purposes of the criticisms the office is 6 receiving -- it impugns the credibility of the office but you 7 must stick to what you think the right thing to do is and do 8 it. so, somebody had asked me before how do you do that, 9 right? The answer is I don't know. It has to be something in 10 your genes or upbringing I guess but I never felt like I 11 couldn't tell what the right thing to do was and I hope I have 12 always done what I think the right thing to do is irrespective 13 of pressure but you must know it is out there. You must know 14 it can have an influence on you and guard against it. 15 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, when you were U.S. Attorney 16 in the southern District of New York there were many women 17 there because certainly in large part because of Bob Fiske's 18 efforts but were there any issues relating to women that popped 19 up when you were there? 20 MARYJO WHITE: You know, I think we expanded the 21 part-time program which was there already in the southern 22 District. I gave a lot of advice, if it was solicited, to 23 women assistants who had children and I don't know if it is 24 ironic or not ironic, bu·t my basic advice to young mothers in 25 the office was, look, if your instinct is telling you fairly SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 118 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 strongly you want to stay home for a while, stay home, because 2 you will never get that time back. And so, I did a fair amount 3 of, you know, that kind of counseling in the office. But in 4 terms of the, you know, the day-to-day work load, I mean the 5 women were terrific. The men were terrific. Cathy Seibel and 6 Deidre Daly were two of the women who were there when I was 7 there, Deirdre is the U.S. Attorney in the Connecticut today, Page 54 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 8 Cathy Seibel is a U.S. District Judge. 9 so, the tradition of strong women in the southern 10 District certainly continued when I was there. Shirah Neiman 11 is also someone who left the office after I left, actually, one 12 of the finest lawyers anywhere, and now she's gone into the 13 private sector and by and large is doing monitorship work which 14 she is exceptional at. 15 JUDGEBARBARA JONES: she was your chief assistant. 16 MARYJO WHITE: she was our chief assistant, 17 absolutely, and invaluable as chief assistant. she was 18 involved in everything we did. 19 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Mary Jo, let me just ask this 20 one last question. what was your proudest accomplishment as 21 U.S. Attorney? A hard question. 22 MARYJO WHITE: That's very hard. That's very, very 23 hard. And I don't kind of think in those terms actually. I 24 mean, clearly we have talked about the terrorism cases. There 25 were a number of, you know, indictments of major financial SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 119 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 institutions on the white collar side that I thought were 2 extraordinarily important but I think if you asked of which 3 case I am the proudest of, it would probably be the Francis 4 Livoti case, the civil rights case. It involved a fairly 5 high-ranking NYPDofficer -- I mean high ranking in the PBA, 6 had a history of a numbet of civilian complaints and then one 7 Christmas Eve in the Bronx he was on duty i·n his patrol car. 8 Anthony Baez and his brothers were, at about midni9ht, in the 9 street throwing a football around, really totally innocent 10 activity, just burning some ener9y before the holiday, and 11 their football hit the hood of L1voti's patrol car. He, you 12 know, having a temper I guess, got upset about that and it 13 eventually escalated into putting Anthony Baez under arrest, 14 used a choke hold to subdue him; he had asthma and he died. 15 There was a state trial first for manslaughter and 16 Livoti was acquitted of that. And so, we investigated and 17 ultimately brought a civil rights case, he was convicted and I 18 think spent about six and a half, seven years in jail as a 19 result of that conviction. And I remember very clearly Fred 20 Virella who was the Executive U.S. Attorney, Hispanic, being 21 extraordinarily emotional both at the time we indicted Livoti 22 and when he was convicted, and really thanking me for having 23 brought the case. And to me it was the right thing to do which 24 is my job, but it really brought home just how extraordinarily 25 important it was to have done that. SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 120 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: All right. And then you went 2 back to Debevoise in 2002 and stayed for quite a while. what 3 was it like to get back into private practice after, I guess, 4· more than 10 years in public service? 5 MARYJO WHITE: It was about 12 years actually I had 6 been away. Little things had changed. I think the law firm 7 practice in general had become more of a business, not in all 8 positive ways although I think Debevoise maintained itself as a 9 profession where people practiced law for the right reasons and 10 in the right way. I have always liked the private sector. The 11 challenges are tremendous, the resources available to you are 12 tremendous so that you can really do the best job you can on Page 55 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 13 almost every matter. 14 I came back as chair of the litigation department but 15 had a wonderful co-chair, John Kiernan, who did most of the 16 work. I really practiced and supervised the partners and 17 associates in various cases. I did, you know, again the gamut 18 of cases. I did a lot of enforcement work. I did a lot of 19 internal investigations. civil work as well. I even 20 represented Rosie O'Donnell in her magazine dispute. she 21 actually talked me into representing her. Amazing person, 22 brilliant person. And on the pro bona side I sort of full 23 circle became the monitor overseeing the fire department's 24 entry exam which a judge in the Eastern District had found to 25 be discriminatory. And so, you know, that was a very SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 121 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 satisfying thing to do. 2 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: so, two questions. Once you 3 went back to Debevoise did you notice any difference in, I 4 don't know, either the amount of time or the amount of 5 attention that you could spend on being a mother? Did it make 6 any difference or are you full tilt in any job that you are at? 7 MARYJO WHITE: Well, I have to say I probably am full 8 tilt at any job that I have. That's from when people ask me: 9 so, what is your answer to the life balance question? And I 10 always say do as I say, not as I do, because it is very 11 difficult for me to sort of turn off the work gene that I have. 12 But, I think you do, as you become more senior, get more 13 control over your life and therefore more time that you can 14 decree for yourself to spend with your children, your family. 15 I certainly, you know, did that when I went back and clearly 16 when you are U.S. Attorney it is very time consuming not only 17 the workday but also the number of functions that you have to 18 attend or feel like you need to attend in that capacity. one 19 pledge I did make when I went back to the private sector is I 20 was no longer going to attend things I didn't want to attend so 21 that I could spend more time with my family and I pretty much 22 kept that pledge. 23 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: what about defending in white 24 collar cases after 12 years of being prosecutor? 25 MARYJO WHITE: well, remember I started the private SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 122 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 sector so I went from defending to prosecuting to defending to 2 prosecuting to defending in that sense of the word. I have 3 actually not found that transition to be difficult and the 4 reason I have not found it to be difficult, first of all in the 5 private sector you decide who you represent to a large degree 6 and so there are some defendants who I would just decline to 7 represent. I don't have to be available to be hired by anybody 8 who wants to hire me. so, you have some control in that way. 9 And I think otherwise when you are a private sector lawyer you 10 have an ethical duty to represent your clients obviously 11 appropriately within the bounds of ethics and the law and, you 12 know, that's your duty. And so, I have never had a problem 13 doing my duty whether I am in the private sector or in the 14 public sector. I also think having been in the private sector 15 has always made me a much tougher, better prosecutor because I 16 kind of know the tricks of the trade and what to be skeptical 17 of and what the pressure points are but I think a combination Page 56 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 18 of selecting your clients and carrying out your duty in the 19 private sector has not been a problem or issue for me or for 20 anyone else. Now, there are some people had can't leave the 21 government. I think there are some people who can't leave the 22 defense bar because they really -- it sort of consumes their 23 psyche. I never felt like that's been the case with me. 24 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, in the '80s and '90 and 25 maybe into the 2000s this were very few women in the white SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300 123 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 collar bar. Has that changed and why has it changed? 2 MARYJO WHITE: It certainly has changed. I think it 3 is still dominated by men, certainly at the most senior levels, 4 but what has changed it is the old girl network from the 5 southern District and other places so women on the outside and 6 in the private sector, general counsel positions, law firms are 7 supportive of each other. You have had -- I mean, Denise cote 8 was I guess the first woman to be -- she is on the bench -- but 9 then also Karen Seymour under Jim Corney, was to be the chief of 10 the criminal Division there. Karen has certainly become a 11 leader of the white collar bar, as have others. 12 so, I think it is really the numbers of hi9hly 13 qualified women and the old girls' network which exists as well 14 as the old boys' network and I think it is quite supportive of 15 women. I do remember one program I was on when I was in the 16 private sector about the issue of some of the barriers still in 17 the private sector for women lawyers and I remember saying, 18 with a woman ~eneral counsel of a major company sitting in the 19 audience and JUSt looking at this person from the dais and 20 saying we all -- women -- have a responsibility to help each 21 other in this field -- enforcement, internal investigations, 22 whatever, but particularly in that field, and that women 23 general counsel have a responsibility to hire qualified women 24 for those positions even if they think perhaps their board 25 would be happier with a male who is equally or almost as SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 124 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 qualified as the woman. And within, I would say, two to three 2 weeks I was hired by that general counsel in a major white 3 collar matter. 4 so, the point of is that story is we have to remind 5 ourselves that it is still tough out there for women in the 6 enforcement arena and we need to help etch other out. 7 JUDGE BARBARAJONES: Now, after being at Debevoise 8 for 12 years you made a decision to become the chairman of the 9 securities Exchange commission, to accept that appointment from 10 President Obama. certainly you must have had other options to 11 going into public service before that. Why did you choose that 12 one? 13 MARYJO WHITE: well, I 9uess a couple reasons. one, 14 I think -- I love New York. I think Washington is certainly a 15 harder place to do your public service although that is where 16 most of the good public service jobs are -- not all of them, 17 obviously. I think obviously the best one there is is the U.S. 18 Attorney in the southern District but there is also nothing as ·19 satisfying and as important as public service. The SEC is an 20 agency I became very familiar with from being U.S. Attorney. 21 we worked very closely with the SEC for many, many years in the 22 white collar securities fraud area, big admirer of the SEC. Page 57 XF7E5trailblazersc-corrected.txt 23 one of its attractions for me is not only the subject matter or 24 subject matters it is involved in but it is an inoependent 25 agency and takes seriously -- and I think again the pull of SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P~C. (212) 805-0300 125 Mary Jo white - Trailblazers interview (corrected version) 1 public service, great agency, very important responsibilities, 2 and I was 65 years old when I was asked to do it. so, as much 3 as I had said earlier about overtures about getting back into 4 public service, move the building to New York and I will 5 consider it. I decided, you know, I had been back at Debevoise 6 for what, 11 years. Public service is always, a very strong 7 pull my life. 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERNDISTRICT REPORTERS,P.C. (212) 805-0300

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