Vol. 755 Tuesday No. 25 15 July 2014

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Message from the Queen ...... 497 Leader of the House...... 497 Questions Northern Ireland: Illegal Petrol and Diesel...... 501 Income Tax: Top Rate ...... 503 Cabinet Office: Efficiency and Reform Programme ...... 505 Child Abuse...... 508 Business of the House Timing of Debates...... 510 Public Bodies (Abolition of Food from Britain) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 511 Serious Crime Bill [HL] Committee (3rd Day) ...... 511 Cyprus Question for Short Debate...... 563

Grand Committee Infrastructure Bill [HL] Committee (4th Day)...... GC 211

Written Statements...... WS 53 Written Answers ...... WA 111

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reformed EU, I was relieved that we have such rational House of Lords chap in Brussels, notwithstanding our differences over the EU Referendum Bill. This morning he said that Tuesday, 15 July 2014. one of his challenges was, “how to strengthen public support in many countries for the 2.30 pm European Union”. I trust that he includes the UK in this. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Carlisle. While I fear that some of his colleagues in the Commons want us to leave the EU come what may, I Message from the Queen know that the noble Lord will work with colleagues in the Commission to bring about reform. However, I offer him commiserations for having to deal with some 2.37 pm elements of his own party who will want to breathe The Lord Chamberlain (Earl Peel) (CB): My Lords, down his neck, harrying him towards the exit. I have the honour to present to your Lordships a The noble Lord survived the experience of the message from Her Majesty the Queen, signed by her Maastricht Bill in No. 10 and I have no doubt that he own hand. The message is as follows: will survive the tensions of being a Conservative “I have received with great satisfaction the dutiful and loyal Commissioner. From these Benches, we wish him well. expression of your thanks for the Speech with which I opened the present Session of Parliament”. Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD): My Lords, I associate the Liberal Democrat Benches with the very Leader of the House warm wishes expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Royall of Blaisdon, to my noble friend Lord Hill of 2.38 pm Oareford. Perhaps I may paraphrase Benjamin Disraeli by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): My Lords, before saying that everyone likes flattery, and when you come exercising the privilege of leading tributes to the noble to an outgoing Leader of the House, you should lay it Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford, I welcome the noble on with a trowel. You may wonder why from these Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, to her new role as Benches I am quoting Benjamin Disraeli. The truth is Leader of the House. The whole House rightly paid that the noble Lord, Lord Hill, pointed me in the tribute to her for the consensual manner in which she direction of this quote when I spoke to him on the phone piloted the same-sex marriage Bill through your Lordships’ this morning. House, and I am sure that she will use those skills as Leader of the House. I wonder whether her skills I actually need no prompting whatever to pay a could also be used to offer a peacemaking role between very warm tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hill. I Mr George Clooney and the Daily Mail—but I will valued him as a Front Bench colleague from 2010—but leave that to the noble Baroness. particularly since I was appointed Deputy Leader of your Lordships’ House in October last year, I have had It will be a pleasure to work for the noble Baroness, a warm and constructive working relationship with who I am sure will secure the Government’s business him. He has been an exemplary and thoughtful Leader in the Lords in a style that fits with its traditions and of your Lordships’ House, protecting the interests of places the proper emphasis on effective scrutiny and the House and of individual Members in everything the willingness of government to rethink from time to that he has done during his term of office. I can time. I also know that she will not forget that in the sincerely say that his overwhelming concern has always strange but wonderful position she has as Leader she been to protect the good reputation of this House, and wears two hats—Leader of the Conservative Benches he has regularly returned to this in our many conversations and Leader of the whole House. The whole House will together. Party politics aside, we have genuinely worked be united in its support for the noble Baroness as very well together and I hold him in very high regard. Leader. I trust that press reports that she will not be a full member of the Cabinet are not true. I echo the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in saying that the noble Lord had a consensual way of working I turn to the noble Lord, Lord Hill of Oareford. I in the House and a particular concern for detail that I start by thanking him personally for the warm and believe will stand him in good stead in his new role in productive working relationship that he and I had Europe. The outgoing United Kingdom Commissioner during his time as Leader. His door has always been was also a Leader of your Lordships’ House. We may open, as has his mind. He has shown himself to be a reflect that, to operate in a House where no one party consensus builder with inner steel. He was endorsed has a majority, we must build alliances and agreements for such skills in his new commissioner role by the across it to get things done. I suspect that this House Prime Minister, who this morning said: was therefore a very good training ground for his new “He has proven a skilled negotiator, respected by all parties”. position. Whatever our party-political views on Europe, Whether he can extend those skills to negotiations we on these Benches wish him well in his new role. with Nigel Farage remains to be seen—but if anyone I also extend a warm welcome to my noble friend can, perhaps it is the noble Lord. Lady Stowell as Leader of the House. We worked well This might not help his credentials within his own together this time last year on the Marriage (Same Sex party, but as someone who leads the Labour Benches, Couples) Bill and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, which believe that our present and future must lie in a said, the manner in which my noble friend conducted 499 Leader of the House[LORDS] Leader of the House 500

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] did a wonderful job as Education Minister and he has the Bill shows the qualities which she will have to be been a good friend to the Church and to the Lords Leader of our House. However, I wonder whether her spiritual. new elevated status will make George Clooney think On these Benches he will forever be remembered for again about his recent engagement—but only time will the slight confusion in the Pass Office that his and tell. the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford’s I hope that I am not betraying any confidences by introduction caused. The right reverend Prelate— saying that, when I spoke to my noble friend Lord Hill Christopher Hill—and the noble Lord, Lord Hill, this morning, he reflected on the fact that my noble introduced on the same day, briefly shared a wife due friend Lady Stowell has a bit of a baptism of fire to clerical confusion over their surname. This was today, with some Standing Order changes that she has thought by all to be a step too far towards liberal to move and the House Committee at 4 pm. It was in inclusivity, even with the news yesterday of the imminent the way that he said “the House Committee at 4 pm” arrival of women to the episcopate. that I recognised a man who was demob happy. I look We also extend our warmest welcome to the noble forward to working constructively with my noble friend, Baroness, Lady Stowell. As we have heard, she had the starting at 4 pm in the House Committee. imposing task in the previous Session of introducing We on these Benches look forward to working with changes to the marriage law and we were very grateful my noble friend, and I once again to pay tribute to the for her willingness to engage constructively with all valued work and service to the House of my noble sides of the debate. We are sure that this will continue friend Lord Hill of Oareford. in her new role and we greatly look forward to further engagement with her in the years to come. So we welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, and we say Lord Laming (CB): My Lords, on behalf of my thank you very much to the noble Lord, Lord Hill, colleagues on the Cross Benches, I endorse the warm wishing him well in his new endeavour of representing and very well deserved tributes to the noble Lord, the complex interests of the United Kingdom with our Lord Hill, and wish him great success in his new European partners in the Commission. appointment in Brussels. I and others recall well that he was a most effective and hard-working Minister, and I admired greatly his commitment to furthering The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Baroness the protection and well-being of vulnerable children Stowell of Beeston) (Con): My Lords, first, I thank all and young people. It is a great credit to him that he noble Lords for their kind words about my predecessor quickly established himself as Leader of the House. and the warm welcome extended to me. I fear that I He has fulfilled his responsibilities with great skill and will never live down my remarks about George Clooney. care. He has commanded the respect of the House and I am honoured to stand here as Leader of your is rightly held in very high regard. Lordships’ House. That is not least because of who I succeed. My noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford is also Like others, I had heard rumours in the media a personal friend of more than 20 years. He and I about him being a possible candidate for a post in worked together closely in the past and, as noble Europe. I readily admit that, rather selfishly, I hoped Lords may recall, he was one of my supporters when I that that would not happen—but now that it has joined this House. He has always been a source of happened, he will be greatly missed by us all. The support, wisdom and good humour—not just for me noble Lord can be assured that he takes with him to but for many of your Lordships. His unruffled and Brussels our grateful thanks for all that he has done self-deprecating style sets him apart, as does his unfailing during his work as Leader of the House, and also our courtesy and generosity as a kind and straight-talking warmest good wishes. I feel sure that we all agree that man. We will all miss him during his time at the the noble Lord is a thoroughly nice colleague, who is Commission. My noble friend heads off to Brussels at able, conscientious, reliable and a real pleasure to an especially important time for this country, and the work with. We wish him well. Prime Minister has sent a man with the country’s very If there is good news in losing the noble Lord, Lord best interests at heart. Undoubtedly, my noble friend Hill, it is that he has been replaced by the noble will be brilliant in that job. Baroness, Lady Stowell of Beeston, who is greatly This House must always meet the highest standards admired for both her professional and her personal that the people it serves rightly expect. My noble qualities. As has already been said, her skill at handling friend, although Leader of your Lordships’ House for difficult legislation has been well and truly tested in only a relatively short time, put that right at the heart your Lordships’ House. We welcome her most warmly of the work he did. In his time as Leader, he proposed to her new role, we wish her great success and we all and supported changes to the House’s Code of Conduct look forward to working with her. to strengthen and clarify its operation, as well as new sanctions to deal with those who fall below the standards The Lord Bishop of Carlisle: My Lords, I associate that we expect. My noble friend can be rightly proud of those of us on these Benches with the generous comments the way in which he has led this House with distinction. from around the House about the noble Lord, Lord He has been a firm defender of its traditions and customs. Hill. My colleagues have been grateful for the support, Like my noble friend Lord Hill, I have huge respect the wisdom and the guidance of the noble Lord for this House and its work. I am very conscious of the and his office for the Lords spiritual to enable our great privilege of being Leader and I shall use all my contribution to the work of the House to match the energies to work with your Lordships to meet our high levels of all other parts of the House. He also responsibilities. 501 Leader of the House[15 JULY 2014] NI: Illegal Petrol and Diesel 502

Northern Ireland: Illegal Petrol and Lord Newby: My Lords, I do not know about the Diesel past, but in very recent times HMRC has had in-house resources in Northern Ireland to deal specifically with Question this issue. Additional funding has gone to the road 2.51 pm fuel testing units, which are crucial. There is the introduction of a new, more effective marker just Asked by Lord Mawhinney round the corner. It is worth informing the House—to To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their demonstrate that we are being effective in this area—that estimate of the total loss to HM Treasury caused by the plant capable of producing more than 8 million the production and smuggling of illegal petrol and litres of laundered fuel was recently found and dismantled diesel in Northern Ireland. in a cattle shed in Crossmaglen.

Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, the latest tax gap Lord Hylton (CB): My Lords, is the Minister aware figures published by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs that cheaper diesel and petrol prices in the Republic estimate the market share for illicit diesel in Northern have forced the closure of most filling stations in Ireland at 12% to 13%, or around £80 million, in Northern Ireland in a strip 10 or 20 miles wide along 2011-12. Petrol fraud was estimated as negligible. the border? Will the Government therefore move to equalise fuel taxes, as is being done in the case of Lord Mawhinney (Con): I thank my noble friend for corporation taxes? that reply. Given the illegal production and smuggling of fuel in Northern Ireland for decades, given the fact that today a quarter of all fuel sold in Northern Lord Newby: My Lords, the setting of the duty Ireland is illegal, and bearing in mind the loss to the rates for diesel and petrol are obviously done at a UK Treasury which my noble friend just mentioned and level. Although this is a problem, it is only one of the the fact that there has not been a single conviction, is many considerations that have to be taken into account. he surprised to learn that many people in Northern There has been a differential in diesel pricing between Ireland believe that that set of circumstances points to the Republic and Northern Ireland for a very long the fact that a deal may have been done with the time. Some people are obviously going across the smugglers, akin to that for the on-the-runs, suggesting border but, as I said earlier, as a proportion of the that if they stick to smuggling no other action will be total consumption of diesel in Northern Ireland it is taken against them? Can my noble friend assure us relatively modest. that no such deal has been conducted in writing, words, nudge or wink by this Government? Lord Gordon of Strathblane (Lab): Will the Minister consider publishing all the available data on quite Lord Newby: My Lords, I can absolutely do that. legitimate cross-border traffic? It might further illuminate First, perhaps I may correct the noble Lord. A quarter the debate on Scottish independence, where many of all diesel consumption is not illegal; 12% to 13% is people feel that you can have differential rates north illegal; the balance is made up of diesel that is bought and south of a land border without any apparent in the Republic and brought across. I also assure the change in consumer behaviour. House that it is not true that there have been no convictions in this area. There were nine convictions last year, nine convictions the previous year and four Lord Newby: My Lords, there is a lot of data convictions the year before. It is true that, unlike in the published about the duty rates. Noble Lords can see rest of the UK—or, rather, in England and Wales—there those. What is extremely difficult to do is to demonstrate have not been custodial sentences in Northern Ireland, with any great degree of precision exactly how much but legislative change last December was undertaken of a product crosses a border without a customs post. specifically to deal with that problem. That is obviously a challenge between the Republic and Northern Ireland, as well as more generally within Lord Alderdice (LD): My Lords, when the Independent the EU. Monitoring Commission was established by the British and Irish Governments, we sought to investigate this Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab): My Lords, problem and were shocked to discover that, despite there is also, of course, a problem of smuggling from the fact that the Northern Ireland Office had been mainland Europe into the UK. I went down to Dover there for a very long time and was very well resourced, a couple of years ago and was shocked to see how almost no resource was being put in by HMRC to porous our borders are. We spoke to the customs address it. It just did not seem a priority. We worked officer there; in terms of illegal alcohol and tobacco, very hard, without trying to create a problem or there just were not the staff to stop the vehicles to embarrassment for the Government. It is true that, by check them. the time that we were finishing up, HMRC had appointed a substantial number of people to address the problem, but there is now no Independent Monitoring Commission Lord Newby: My Lords, tobacco smuggling has and the Northern Ireland Office is a shadow of its been a problem for some time. The additional resources former self. How can the House be assured that there that have gone into HMRC over the course of this will be proper monitoring and accountability to ensure Parliament, which amount to about £1 billion, have that HMRC continues to do what it needs to, because among other things enabled more to be put into that that certainly was not the case in the past? area also. 503 NI: Illegal Petrol and Diesel[LORDS] Income Tax: Top Rate 504

Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP): HMRC figures individuals or firms. There is a measure in this year’s confirm that in 2013-14 illicit fuel was identified at Budget specifically designed to get tax upfront from some 33 filling stations. Does the Minister agree that it individuals who are engaged in schemes that might would be helpful if HMRC would publish the names subsequently be found to be avoiding tax. That will of the filling stations concerned so that law-abiding generate a considerable amount of income. A number motorists could make an informed choice not to use of other measures that we have taken are bringing in them? hundreds of millions of pounds from people who previously were able to avoid taxes. Lord Newby: The slight danger is that others might not, of course. The HMRC is looking at this issue. Lord Wrigglesworth (LD): Does my noble friend There is a legal problem at the moment. The legislation not agree that if we want a fairer tax system, it also would allow naming and shaming to take place only means that we need to ensure that the broadest backs above a certain financial threshold, which would not bear the greatest burdens when we are facing difficulties? be met by some of these petrol stations, which are typically small and independently owned. There is Lord Newby: Yes, my Lords, and that is why the also a bad faith test in the legislation so there would Government have taken a raft of measures which will need to be a change in it, but HMRC is looking at that ensure that those with the broadest backs pay very issue. much more than the additional amount of income tax that they might have paid had the rate remained at Income Tax: Top Rate 50%. For example, we have increased higher rate capital Question gains tax, raised the stamp duty on higher value homes and reduced the cost of pensions tax relief. These measures, taken with other measures, mean that 3pm the additional amount being paid by high earners was Asked by Lord Forsyth of Drumlean more than £1 billion last year and will be more than £2 billion this year and more than £4 billion next year. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what effect This is real cash coming into the Exchequer as a result the reduction in the top rate of income tax has had of measures we have taken to hit those who otherwise on revenue received by HM Treasury. were avoiding tax.

Lord Newby (LD): My Lords, the forecast Exchequer Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab): My Lords, how can revenue effect of reducing the additional rate of income the Government claim that they are being fair when tax to 45% is estimated at around £110 million per they cut the top rate of tax, giving a £3 billion tax year. This is set out in table 2.2 of Budget 2013. reduction for millionaires? How does the Minister think that squares with the ordinary taxpayer in the Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con): My Lords, I am country? To say that it brings in more revenue because astonished that my noble friend is not prepared to people who have been dodging tax altogether actually take more credit for the success of the Government’s decide that they will make a contribution scarcely policy. Is it not the case that the reduction in the top sounds like good government. rate of tax from 50% to 45% has resulted in a record level of 28% of all tax revenue being paid by the top Lord Newby: My Lords, there is no £3 billion, as I 1% of taxpayers? Is that not more than twice the level have explained. The effect of the cut is £110 million. that was paid by the top 1% of taxpayers when the The other measures we have taken will bring in over a Labour Government under James Callaghan had a three-year period some £7 billion extra from the same marginal tax rate of 98%? Is not the lesson that lower people. For people on ordinary incomes, the rise in the taxes and fairer taxes are needed in order to cut the income tax threshold means that by next year the deficit and preserve public services? typical basic rate taxpayer will be £805 per annum better off and 3.2 million people who were otherwise Lord Newby: My Lords, the noble Lord has a better paying income tax will not be paying income tax at all. memory than I have. I am very happy to take credit for the Government’s achievements. The proportion of Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con): My Lords, it may be income tax collected from the top 1% has gone up difficult for the party opposite and my noble friends from about 26% to 28% during the lifetime of this on the Liberal Democrat Benches to understand, but Government. Certainly, income tax take from high taxation has one purpose, and one purpose only, which earners is extremely resilient because they are prepared is to raise revenue. The Minister said his memory is to pay it at the levels we now have. not very good, so may I remind him that when in 1988 I reduced the top rate of income tax from 60% to 40%, Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, is that not a fairly it brought in much more revenue and also resulted in small sum of money compared to what we lose every the wealthy paying a higher proportion of tax than year through people who dodge and evade taxes? ever before? Will he reconsider his previous answer?

Lord Newby: My Lords, it is a very considerable Lord Newby: No, my Lords, it simply is not true sum of money, but we are taking steps across a range that the sole purpose of tax is to bring in revenue. of areas to tackle evasion and avoidance, whether by Obviously every tax does bring in revenue, but some 505 Income Tax: Top Rate[15 JULY 2014] Efficiency and Reform Programme 506 tax is introduced in order to affect behaviour. We are helped government departments to make savings of about to have a plastic bag tax but I do not think that some £14.3 billion. This follows £10 billion savings the primary purpose of that tax is to bring in money. achieved in the financial year 2012-13, £5.5 billion in the financial year 2011-12, and £3.75 billion in the Lord Haskel (Lab): My Lords, the top 1% pays financial year 2010-11. These savings are calculated more tax. Is that because their income has gone up? against a 2009-10 baseline.

Lord Newby: It is partly because their income has Lord Risby (Con): My Lords, the whole House will gone up, but proportionately it is because they are welcome the return to economic growth. However, prepared to pay the tax. As noble Lords opposite given the continuing high deficit and debt, does my know, and as the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has just noble friend accept that living within our means and demonstrated, when you get to very high levels of tax also controlling the cost of government remain vital and very wealthy people, whether they pay it or not is objectives? Although I welcome enormously the progress not simply a question of whether they get a demand that has been made so far, can my noble friend indicate from HMRC. any further progress on cross-departmental procurement activity and the effective involvement by SMEs in this whole process? Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My Lords, will my noble friend also comment on the beneficial effect of the decline in corporation tax—a business tax—which Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, that is a very has had the effect of bringing some of our best companies broad question. Having seen this process close up, I back to London? have been struck by the extent to which Whitehall is a confederal system in which departments have to some extent resisted control from the centre. One of my Lord Newby: My Lords, the Government are very favourite projects in this efficiency and reform scheme keen to ensure that the tax regime is internationally has been to centralise the collection of waste paper competitive. That is the effect of the corporation tax and build a closed loop system, from which we now changes. As the noble Baroness said, it is having a save some £4 million—a small amount, but all contributing number of beneficial effects. from building a much more effective system for recycling paper within Whitehall. Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab): My Lords, Martin Sorrell of WPP said that for large corporations, Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD): My Lords, does corporation tax is a voluntary activity. Is that what the the Minister agree that not every saving is praiseworthy? Minster meant by his answer to the last question? For instance, I read in the report that £250 million has been saved on Network Rail repairs. Is it not better Lord Newby: It certainly is not. As the noble Lord that we look first before some savings are made to knows, we have taken the lead internationally to make ensure that they do not undermine the traffic and do sure that companies—which for many years in some not undermine the safety of our railways? cases have not paid much tax—will pay a proportionate amount. We have taken the lead in the G20 and the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: Of course, as with taxation, OECD to make sure that we have different rules in there are a range of different objectives in what you place, rather than rules that were designed more than are attempting to save. However, much of what the 100 years ago. We are going to see the first fruits of Efficiency and Reform Group has been doing is to that in September; the long-term effect will be that apply the sort of careful consideration of how best some companies that have been able to avoid paying to ensure that you make the best use of centralised and tax in the past almost altogether by deciding where long-term contracts, as supermarkets do in their they were domiciled will not be able to avoid it in relationship with their suppliers. The creation of the future. Crown Commercial Service earlier this year and of the Major Projects Authority in April 2011 are very important factors in making Whitehall officials more competent Cabinet Office: Efficiency and Reform and efficient in dealing with the commercial world. Programme Question Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab): We support any work that is done to cut costs, but is the Minister 3.07 pm not slightly ashamed when he asks civil servants almost Asked by Lord Risby to count the paperclips when the Government then waste £1 billion on selling Royal Mail too cheaply? To ask Her Majesty’s Government what savings the programme of Efficiency and Reform, run by Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the noble the Efficiency and Reform Group led by the Cabinet Baroness knows that floating companies and making Office, has achieved since 2010. IPOs are always very difficult matters to estimate. We can go on arguing about that particular transaction Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, for the for a long time, but I am very proud of what the financial year 2013-14, the Cabinet Office Efficiency Efficiency and Reform Group has included. I have not and Reform Group, which was set up in June 2010, yet touched on the digital transformation in which, as 507 Efficiency and Reform Programme[LORDS] Child Abuse 508

[LORD WALLACE OF SALTAIRE] Child Abuse we all know, the move from using paper to using Question digital in transactions with government offers enormous potential savings. 3.13 pm Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab): The noble Lord, Asked by Lord Storey Lord Roberts, asked a very wise question. Is it not the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps case that most of the savings will be made by destructive they are taking to prevent and tackle child abuse in cuts in capital expenditure rather than cuts in revenue the United Kingdom. expenditure? Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con): My Lords, child Lord Wallace of Saltaire: No, that is not the case. If abuse is an abhorrent crime. We established the national I may carry on about the Government Digital Service, group on sexual violence against children and vulnerable it is a wonderful example of insourcing, bringing people as one of the ways in which we are working to people in from the Guardian online and various other eradicate it. Additionally, as the House was informed places and saving an enormous amount of money that last week, in response to public concerns on this was previously being spent on outside consultancies matter, the Government have announced an inquiry to with large, usually American-owned IT firms. We have consider whether public bodies and non-state institutions managed to save a lot of money and have produced a have taken seriously their duty of care to protect children much better result. We have also saved a great deal by from sexual abuse. focusing on redundant property. For example, different government departments had 18 different buildings in Lord Storey (LD): I am grateful for my noble friend’s Bristol. The efficiency gains that one can make from reply. I want to talk about a particular education that are very considerable. matter, so he may feel the need to write to me about it. I wrote to the Minister asking about the number of Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean (Lab): The noble young people who are not in school—it is about Lord gave a very interesting answer to the previous 80,000. We also know that several thousand young question— people have gone missing from our system, as each young person should have a unique pupil number. Lord Brabazon of Tara (Con): If we did sell the Post How can we ensure the safety of those children, if we Office too cheaply, surely that pales into insignificance do not know where they are being taught, or if they in comparison with the sale of the gold reserves some are being taught in unregulated institutions, or wherever years ago. they are? How can we make sure that they are protected and safeguarded, as we do in schools? Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I do not want to be too partisan on this question. I am focusing on Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: My noble friend raises the efficiency gains that this Government have achieved quite a specific issue, but, as I am sure he is aware, the very creditably in the past four years. Government’s strategy in Working Together to Safeguard Children provides clear statutory guidance for school Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: My Lords, staff. As he rightly pointed out, unfortunately there perhaps I may go back to the question before last as are children who are not within school and safeguarding the noble Lord gave a very interesting answer. Can he their interest is also important. If I may, I will write to tell us how much actually has been saved by the digital him specifically on that issue. insourcing that he described? Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB): My Lords, I Lord Wallace of Saltaire: The previous Government ask the Minister what he is doing about programmes spent an enormous amount on outside consultants. to deal with children abused in their own homes. As he will know, some 46% of children and young people Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: But how much who are abused are abused at home and a large number are you spending? are in situational abuse, where they are abused by a babysitter or someone who happens to be around. The Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I am sorry, but I do not best programmes for that are education programmes have the figures before me on that. I shall have to write in communities, but I note that some of those have to the noble Baroness later. One substantial element in been cut recently. Does the Minister agree that we these savings has been the reduction in outside consultancy should reinstate them? and outside contracts. The Government Digital Service has saved a great deal of money. I would go further Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The important point and say that, in my experience, the quality of the here is that, as the noble Baroness points out, abuse of people who work in the Government Digital Service is children can take place anywhere—in schools or in absolutely outstanding. any institution in society.The Government’s programmes have certainly been focused. Indeed, the whole basis of Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean: But the noble the new body that has been set up is to ensure that Lord will write. no facet of society—whether religious institutions, government bodies or political parties—falls out of Lord Wallace of Saltaire: I will write. the net. As far as issues go at home, of course the 509 Child Abuse[15 JULY 2014] Business of the House 510

Government are supporting such work. For example, across the country at this moment? It seems to me, if we have appointed the first ever Chief Social Worker the Minister will agree, that there needs to be sufficient for Children and Families in England, Isabelle Trowler, resources for the police, who at the moment are being and we are working with her to provide independent, cut down in the amount of money they have. They expert advice to Ministers on social work. She will act really need more money to cope with both kinds of as a figurehead for the profession and will work with abuse—those of the past and those of the present. local authorities, which are very much on the front line in protecting these children in homes. Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble and learned Baroness speaks with great experience and expertise Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab): My Lords, on this subject. Therefore, I am sure all noble Lords the evidence now is very clear that many more children will join me in expressing great sadness that she has are abused within their own families—physically, sexually chosen to step down from the role for which she was or both—in a way that was simply not uncovered in selected, although we all appreciate the reasons why the past. The answer to this is really early intervention she did so. The Government fully recognise her ability and much better support for parents on parenting. I in this regard. Certainly, it was the view of my right believe that the Government need to go much further honourable friend the Home Secretary that she should than they have proposed to do so at the moment. Does remain the chairman of this important inquiry. Turning the Minister have any proposals with which he can to the substance of her remarks, I totally share the reassure the House? concerns she has raised. This is not just about looking backwards but is about ensuring that in the future we Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: On the issue of early protect children in all facets of society. The important intervention, I will speak both on a personal front and element is that we engage fully in this area, that no also, if I may, for the new Leader of the House, as stone is left unturned historically and that no person both of us made our maiden speeches on that very feels that they are vulnerable to sexual abuse tomorrow. issue. This is of concern not just to the Government This is an abhorrent crime and the sooner we eradicate but to all of us in your Lordships’ House. Through it from our society, the better. I am sure all noble this particular inquiry and other initiatives, the Lords share that sentiment. Government are looking to address the issues of historical abuse and also the issues of prevention. We are investing Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab): My Lords, I a great deal more in education, both through our assure the noble Lord that we on this side of the schools and through our social services systems. Of House share those concerns. Noble Lords will recall course, if there is good practice that should be shared that last Monday I raised our concern that there has and taken on board, I am willing to meet with the been a 75% drop-off in the number of people added to noble Baroness to discuss that further. the list of those barred from working with children and vulnerable adults. Last year, there were nearly The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, in pursuing 6,500 referrals to the Disclosure and Barring Service a review into questions of institutional child abuse, are on the ground of suspicious behaviour, the majority of her Majesty’s Government committed to recognising which came from local authorities, yet only 165 people that listening to the voices of survivors and victims of were barred from working with children. Why are so child abuse is vital at every stage of this inquiry; that few referrals being acted on? In the light of evidence their voices, through for example the Stop Church that so many abusers go undetected, will the Government Child Abuse campaign, are clear that ultimately only a review and reconsider the changes made to the vetting full public inquiry will do; and that Sir Keir Starmer and barring system? would be a trusted member of the inquiry panel? Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The noble Baroness Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon: The right reverend raises an important point about these predators—there Prelate again makes a very important point. Let me is no better word for it—who are sometimes undetected assure him that the whole intention of this inquiry is or sometimes are detected but action on them is not to make it open and transparent. While it has been set followed through. When researching this Question, I up on a non-statutory basis at the current time, if the was startled by some of the statistics, including that of chairman and the panel decide that this requires a the 16,500 children currently at high risk of child statutory underpinning then the Government have sexual exploitation. The Government intend to pursue already committed to that—indeed, my right honourable the very points the noble Baroness has raised through friend the Home Secretary has done so. The right the inquiry panel that has been set up to look at these reverend Prelate also raises the important point about elements to ensure that, as I have said, this abhorrent ensuring that any bodies involved in protection of crime is preventing from occurring in the future. children from child abuse—be that in the church or voluntary sectors or across the board—are also included Business of the House in providing evidence. In terms of the specific suggestion, Timing of Debates I shall certainly take that back. 3.22 pm Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): My Lords, does the Moved by Baroness Stowell of Beeston Minister recognise that the importance of looking at historical abuse, although that is extremely important, That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill should not deflect from the equal importance of dealing to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on with recent child abuse and that which is going on Wednesday 16 July and Thursday 17 July in respect 511 Business of the House[LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 512

[BARONESS STOWELL OF BEESTON] The second element of the amendment would add of proceedings on the Finance Bill, the Supply and the word “recklessly”after “wilfully”. This was contained Appropriation (Main Estimates) Bill and any Data in the Private Member’s Bill of my honourable friend Retention and Investigatory Powers Bill; and that Mark Williams MP in another place. Action for Children Standing Order 40(5) (Arrangement of the Order has suggested that we need to insert “recklessly”alongside Paper) be dispensed with on Thursday 17 July. “wilfully”. The introduction of “recklessly” would be in line with the interpretation of the 1981 Sheppard Motion agreed. ruling, and with the interpretation of recklessness recently defined by the House of Lords inRvG.The term “recklessly” was identified in the Sheppard ruling Public Bodies (Abolition of Food from as preferable to “wilfully”, which is considered difficult Britain) Order 2014 to interpret because it is unclear whether it applies to Motion to Approve someone’s action or failure to act, or to their failure to foresee future consequences of their action or inaction. We suggest that “recklessly” is added to clarify this. 3.22 pm There can be a particular problem in cases of child Moved by Baroness Northover neglect, which typically involve the failure to provide care, food, supervision, a safe environment and so on, That the draft order laid before the House on so we need to cover foreseeing the future consequences 6 May be approved. of actions as well as the actions themselves. Adding Relevant documents: 1st Report from the Secondary “recklessly” also serves to protect parents and carers Legislation Scrutiny Committee, 1st Report from the where there is any doubt that their action or inaction Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered was due to mental incapacity or excusable ignorance in Grand Committee on 9 July. of parenting skills. This is because, under the recklessness test, if there is any doubt that the behaviour of parents Motion agreed. or carers was attributable to inherent incapacity to understand or change their behaviour, they will not be prosecuted. This would therefore protect them. Serious Crime Bill [HL] “Recklessly” would also confirm the exclusion from Committee (3rd Day) liability of, for example, carers agreeing to high-risk medical treatment where there is no better medical option for a gravely ill child. 3.23 pm The final element of this amendment removes Relevant documents: 2nd and 3rd Reports from “unnecessary” from the requirement that the offence the Delegated Powers Committee causes unnecessary suffering. The view of children’s organisations is that there is no unnecessary suffering Clause 62: Child cruelty offence that a person may cause, and that the term is antiquated and should be updated to a modern understanding. However, as my noble friend Lady Brinton has pointed Amendment 40BZA out, certain suffering may be unavoidable; for example, where a child has suffered bereavement. Moved by Baroness Walmsley Perhaps the Minister will say whether the under-16 40BZA: Clause 62, page 46, line 34, after “(1)” insert— definition meets the modern understanding of what “( ) for “that age” substitute “the age of 18”; we mean by children. Would it not be better to cover ( ) after “wilfully” insert “recklessly”; all children to the age of 18? Why do the Government ( ) omit “unnecessary”;” feel that “wilfully” alone is a better term to use than adding “recklessly”? Will they commit to looking Baroness Walmsley (LD): My Lords, I wish to speak again at this issue in the light of the enormous support also to Clause 62 stand part. that Mark Williams’s Private Member’s Bill had in another place? Will the Minister also say whether the Amendment 40BZA would introduce to this very term “unnecessary suffering” is clear enough in a good clause three additional small changes to the modern context? Is there not a risk that this could Children and Young Persons Act 1933. These are prevent certain abuses from being prosecuted under issues that have been raised with us by various children’s the offence? organisations, including Action for Children. The first part of the amendment seeks to probe the age to I shall also say a few words about the Question that which a person may have responsibility for a young the clause stand part of the Bill. We strongly support person. The Act currently applies to someone over the this clause, so tabling this Question is not about whether age of 16 who also has responsibility for someone or not it should remain in the Bill, because it is a good “under that age”. The first part of this amendment clause. However, we have some questions about whether therefore questions whether the responsibility should the new and welcome explicit reference to psychological be for anyone under the age of 18, rather than 16, harm will mean that other offences involving harm given that we have had numerous changes in the will now be read as referring only to physical harm. definition of children of late, and it varies from one bit Specifically, offences related to domestic violence could of law to another. potentially be undermined. 513 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 514

The intention of opposing the Question that the police cannot warn the family that if they do not mend clause stand part of the Bill is therefore to ask the their ways they may become the subject of criminal Minister to make a statement from the Dispatch Box proceedings. that other offences will not be undermined by this The purpose of this updated legislation is not to welcome change; and to ask the Government to look put families in the criminal court but to try to push again at whether it would be a positive step to amend them, by a combination of threat and cajoling, into other legislation to reflect psychological harm, in the behaviour that will save the children who are in their same way as we are now affecting offences against care. My amendment, therefore, puts in modern wording children. Will the Minister confirm that this welcome such as, change in Clause 62 will not have an adverse impact on including psychological harm within other offences, “physically or emotionally ill-treats, physically or emotionally where it is not explicitly referred to—for example, neglects”, domestic violence? I beg to move. and removes altogether the words “unnecessary suffering”. I totally agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, 3.30 pm that “unnecessary” should not be there, but “suffering” is not the word we use nowadays. In the Children Acts The Lord Speaker (Baroness D’Souza): My Lords, and other adoption and child-related legislation we talk I should perhaps remind your Lordships that if the about “serious harm”, “substantial harm” or some amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendment 40BZC such phrase. One should get rid of “unnecessary suffering” by reason of pre-emption. and get this legislation to join the rest of legislation on children by using “serious harm”. As regards the Baroness Butler-Sloss (CB): My Lords, to a considerable criminal side of this matter, we then need to explain what extent I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, “serious harm” means. Proposed new subsection (6) in but want to go rather further. I thank the Government my amendment sets that out. for, and indeed welcome, Clause 62 as far as it goes. I It is with some hesitation that I do not entirely agree should like to give particular thanks to the previous with the noble Baroness on proposed new subsection Minister of Justice in the other place, Damian Green (6)(b). I have to say that having battled with the MP, who has always been open to listening to Action Minister in the other place over inserting “recklessly” for Children, for which I am largely speaking; I am instead of “wilfully”, and being told that there was a also speaking for the NSPCC. He has been extremely firm view against doing that, Action for Children, the helpful in giving us an opportunity to put our points NSPCC and I, together with some MPs from the of view to him. It is largely due to his diligence that the Commons, believed that we should explain what “wilfully” clause is in the Bill, so I thank him very much. means. That is why we have put in, Clause 62, as far as it goes, is good but does not go “that a person with responsibility for a child foresaw that an act far enough. The purpose of my Amendment 40BZB— or omission regarding that child would be likely to result in harm, supported particularly by Action for Children, and but nonetheless unreasonably took that risk”. warmly supported by the NSPCC—is to update and That allows the word “wilful” to remain, since the bring into the 21st century Section 1 of the Children Government seem to want it, but also explains it so and Young Persons Act 1933. I have to tell noble that everyone—particularly the police, and indeed people Lords that 1933 was the year in which I was born, and who ill treat their children—understand exactly what it really is about time that we had 21st-century legislation. it is about. I am a relic of that period but the law should not be. I I very much hope that the Government will now am supported in this amendment by the noble Baroness, listen to what is being said in this House, although Lady Smith, and the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, whom they failed to do so in the other place. I very much I thank very much. urge that this should be looked at again. The purpose is to identify in criminal terms serious neglect and emotional abuse. “Neglect” is in the 1933 Act but does not include the effect of neglect on Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede (Lab): My Lords, I rise children and all sorts of emotional abuse that children to speak to Amendment 40BZC, which is in my name. suffer. Neglect is the most widespread and potentially I ,too, welcome this clause. My amendment, which is most serious of all forms of abuse because it is, in promoted by the Children’s Society, finds a different itself, largely neglected. It is not seen. There are appalling way to address the same issues we have already debated stories where the police have identified a problem and in this group. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, discovered that they could not take any action by, for said in her introduction, there are currently a number instance, threatening the family with some sort of of inconsistencies in the law. My amendment finds a criminal proceedings because the abuse and neglect particular way to try to address them. that they see does not include the emotional abuse of The amendment changes the Children and Young things such as frozen awareness. Some noble Lords Persons Act 1933 to increase the age of a child victim may know what I mean by that—for example, a child of cruelty and/or neglect from under 16 to under 18. I aged two sitting in a corner, not moving because of argue that it is a simpler approach than some of the the way in which they have been treated. The police, other amendments in the group. It would bring the who may come into a family, see and understand this criminal law into line with the rest of child protection but have to go away and tell the social workers, legislation and would send a signal that 16 to 18 year- who may or may not take family proceedings in the olds should be protected in the same way as children magistrates’ court but are not obliged to do so. The who are younger than 16. 515 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 516

[LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE] point of view, children should be viewed as being The latest statistics, with which I was supplied by under 18. Sixteen and 17 year-olds can be very vulnerable. the Children’s Society, show that, in 2013, 14,290 The statistics mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord children aged over 16 were children in need because of Ponsonby, showed that. Yet they do not always get either abuse or neglect. A further 1,110 children aged access to the services that younger children can receive. over 16 were recognised as children at risk of significant Professionals often see 16 and 17 year-old children as harm and placed on a child protection plan. Of those, more resilient than younger children. They are often some 290 children had emotional abuse listed as the seen as more able to avoid abuse, or more grown-up main category of their abuse. and therefore more able to cope. It does not help that As some members of the Committee will know, I sit the criminal law aiming to deal with the perpetrators in family court, youth court and adult court as a of child neglect does not cover 16 and 17 year-olds. magistrate. I can clearly say that the most disturbing This sends all the wrong signals that they are not as of those three jurisdictions is family court. You deal vulnerable as younger children. with some extremely vulnerable people—and some The Government’s other reforms increasingly recognise extremely vulnerable young people. It would be no that 16 and 17 year-olds are children. For example, surprise to anyone who works in either the youth or they are not normally treated as adults under the family jurisdiction that 16 and 17 year-olds are among benefits system. The position has recently been reinforced the most vulnerable groups we deal with. I believe that through the rules of the new universal credit system—a they should be given the same protections as those basic condition of entitlement for which is that the aged under 16. claimant is at least 18. That was debated in this House when the Welfare Reform Act 2012 went through The Lord Bishop of Durham: I rise to support the Parliament. I would like to hear from the Minister why amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, children aged 16 or over cannot be considered at risk on behalf of myself and my colleague, the right reverend of neglect and why the new law on emotional neglect Prelate the Bishop of Truro, who chairs the Children’s should not apply to them. Society. The Serious Crime Bill rightly seeks to update the law on neglect of children. We welcome the Bill and the Government’s commitment to seeking to improve Baroness Howarth of Breckland (CB): My Lords, I the response to victims of emotional neglect. The shall speak very briefly as I hope that the Minister will current law is outdated and inadequate. We also support take these amendments away and come back with a the amendment tabled by the noble and learned Baroness, combination. I support the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. Lady Butler-Sloss, and her companions in their amendment, but I am absolutely with the noble Baroness, The UK is one of the only countries in the world Lady Walmsley, and the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, that fails to recognise emotional neglect as the crime it in relation to the age of these children. is. It is to the Government’s credit that they seek to address that through the Bill. However, I believe that Some years ago the Social Research Unit at Dartington the Bill should go further and increase the age a child produced a compendium of all the research about can be defined as a victim of cruelty and neglect from emotional abuse in children. It showed that the under 16 to under 18, which the noble Lord, Lord development of children who had been emotionally Ponsonby, seeks to do through his amendment. By abused was more severely impeded in the long term changing the law in this way we can, for the first time, than the development of those who had been physically offer protection to all children from cruelty and neglect. abused. This is different from sexual abuse, which is another thing. Children who had experienced physical I, too, am grateful to the Children’s Society for its abuse were more likely to be able to survive and grow briefing, and I shall offer a story that it gives of through it than those who had been emotionally abused. Jessica. Jessica was known to social services because Those children whose parents had never made a proper of the neglect and abuse she experienced in her family. emotional contact with them were unlikely to make When she was 16 the relationship between her and her relationships later. So, in terms of mental health and family deteriorated and she was forced to move out of the economics of the situation, looking after these her family home. In the next year and a half she children, and doing so until they are 18, makes really experienced unsuccessful placements in a hostel and good sense. bed and breakfast accommodation. Experiences of neglect at home made it difficult for her to form meaningful relationships. During that time, starting Baroness Meacher (CB): My Lords, I rise to make with her first unsuccessful placement in a hostel, Jessica two small points on Amendment 40BZB, so ably became a victim of sexual exploitation, started using introduced by my noble and learned friend Lady Butler- drugs and developed mental health problems. Stories Sloss. First, I congratulate the Government on clarifying such Jessica’s mean that we need to ensure that this in Clause 62 that psychological effects on children measure applies to all children under 18. have equal importance to physical effects. As my noble This definition is the one enshrined in the United friend has just said, it is also my professional and Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. It is personal experience that psychological damage to children in the Children Act 1989, which governs what safeguarding is often more serious than physical injury—although, responses children should receive if there are concerns of course, it depends on the severity of both. This is an about their well-being. The PACE codes of conduct important step forward, albeit not an entirely new one. for the police were amended last year so that all I know that the legislation has always alluded to under-18s are treated as children. From a safeguarding psychological or psychological-type abuse. I strongly 517 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 518 support Amendment 40BZB and hope very much that wilful, who may believe absolutely, “I am not going the Government will be able to support it, or something to be told by anybody else what to do. I know how to very like it. It seems to me that the clarification is bring up my own children”. That wilfulness may be altogether helpful. influenced by their early experience. Dealing recently I welcome proposed subsection (6)(b), which defines with a middle-aged man whose mother was an alcoholic the term “wilfully”, and have no worries about it. and talking to the health professionals dealing with Further elaboration will no doubt come in regulations. him, it was striking that no one could tell him what to I should be grateful if the Minister would assure the do. He resisted all attempts to provide him with treatment House that in those regulations the Government will and any advice from those around him, even the clarify that a parent with a drug addiction will be professionals. regarded as not having the competence to foresee that The particular advantage of this amendment is that an act or omission regarding a child would be likely to it may help individuals who are very resistant to result in harm, but nonetheless as unreasonably taking taking advice from professionals. It may just be the that risk. Clearly, if a drug-dependent parent is causing extra incentive that will give them the chance to try physical or psychological harm to a child, the matter something different with their children or to seek help must be dealt with. Again, I hope that regulations will for themselves when they are very distrustful of other be put in place to ensure that resources for the treatment people and professionals. I hope that is helpful. of the addiction will be put in place and that the parent will be expected to make good use of them in Baroness Howe of Idlicote (CB): My Lords, I very order to avoid continuing damage to a child. much support my noble and learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss, because her amendment absolutely stresses 3.45 pm this emotional side that we are talking about and I think that the Minister knows that I do not believe which has been in the background for far too long. in being soft on drugs, if a drug-dependent person is However, I am only on my feet because I think that causing harm to others and above all to children. the point made by my noble friend Lady Howarth is However, for the child, the best possible option is for absolutely right. All these measures, and particularly the parent’s addiction to be brought under control the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, through good-quality treatment and for the child to need to be brought in to the Bill, which should be remain with their parent and for the parent or parents amended. For that reason, I very much hope that the to avoid prosecution. Minister will do just that. That brings me to my second point. As I have already said, full recognition of the importance of psychological injury to children through emotional Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB): My Lords, at Second abuse is most welcome. I want to underline that point; Reading a month ago, I committed the cardinal sin of I do not question it for a moment. However, whatever making some very specific and detailed comments of the abuse, prosecution and lengthy court proceedings a nature belonging more to a Committee stage than can be extremely damaging for entire families, including otherwise. I am not going to make up for it by making the children. Prosecution or care proceedings often a Second Reading speech today, but I very much take an enormous length of time and really must be welcome the amendment in the name of the noble and seen as the last resort. I hope that clarity in the law learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss. about the existence of emotional abuse as a crime will I have little doubt that the draftsmen of Clause 1 of ensure that resources are devoted to psychological the 1933 Act intended that “cruelty” should relate to treatments that will prevent such abuse or bring it to both physical and non-physical cruelty. However, in an end in order to minimise the use of the courts in 1981 in the case of Sheppard, this House caused some this area as far as possible. I should be grateful if the confusion in relation to that matter by placing what Minister would give us some assurances on these might be described as a somewhat heavy gloss upon points. the words of statute. The combined effect of the amendment and Clause 62 is that the situation will be The Earl of Listowel (CB): My Lords, I support made abundantly clear. I very greatly welcome that. Amendment 40BZB in the name of my noble and I also take the point that in so far as defining learned friend Lady Butler-Sloss. I am sure that many cruelty in terms of serious harm, a very great bringing of your Lordships are aware that very often there is a together of two concepts has been achieved; that is, cycle of family dysfunction from one generation to the the definition of “significant harm” in Section 31 of next. For instance, we know that many of the young the Children Act 1989, which of course is the section women who come through the care system are more that sets up the machinery for the obtaining of a care likely to have their children removed from them in due order, is now almost exactly the same—or so near as course. to make no difference whatever—as the definition of One of the results of early neglect in childhood can the criminal offence that this clause brings about. be the development of a character which is very resistant I take wholeheartedly the point made by the noble to advice or intervention from others. Being rejected and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, that the last by one’s parents at an early age can give rise to a thing one wants to do is to bring these civil situations personality that is very wilful and resistant to others, into a criminal court. Sometimes that is inevitable. I understandably, because such people may distrust others also take the point that it is right that social workers around them. I can see this amendment being particularly and those involved in the protection of children in the helpful when one thinks of a parent who may be very civil field should, as it were, have the same hymn sheet 519 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 520

[LORD ELYSTAN-MORGAN] Lord Rosser (Lab): My Lords, I shall be brief. The as those who deal with those situations in the criminal noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has field. They are two different fields, which should be rightly set out in some detail a strong case for Amendment mutually exclusive if humanly possible, but nevertheless 40BZB, with which we are associated. I will not attempt it is right that the same standard should apply to both. to repeat the points that have already been so effectively and powerfully made. The need to recognise in the Bill Baroness Walmsley: I wonder if the noble Lord, that harm can be caused by emotional ill treatment Lord Elystan-Morgan, would be kind enough to address and emotional neglect as well as physical ill treatment the House because I am having some difficulty in and neglect is important, as is the substitution of hearing what he is saying. “serious harm”, which is consistent with other areas of criminal law, for “unnecessary suffering”, including the inference that there can be necessary suffering. Lord Elystan-Morgan: Profound apologies. I was discerning perhaps a twinkle of support this side and The amendment also defines “harm” and “wilfully”, one welcomes every little support one can get in this with the latter definition stating that the person has to place. I apologise profusely to the noble Baroness. have the capacity to foresee that an act or omission would be likely to result in harm but none the less In so far as “wilfully” is concerned, this is an unnecessarily took that risk. extremely important development. Lawyers well appreciate that “wilful” can mean an act of deliberate commission We also support the amendment moved in the or omission. On the other hand, intelligent lay men, be name of my noble friend Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede they magistrates, jurors or in any other capacity, might that it should be specific that the age of children to find it very difficult to consider that something which whom a child cruelty offence applies is “under 18”. is pure omission can be wilful. Then there arises the almost theological question of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home whether “recklessly” should be included. I think—but Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My Lords, I I might be corrected, and for this reason I shall turn to am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Walmsley the authorities on the other side—that in so far as the for moving her amendment, to the noble and learned statutory definition of wilful is set out here, it is in fact Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss—we are delighted to see the classic definition adopted by this House in a case her in her place, taking part in our debate—and to the of recklessness called Caldwell in the 1980s. It was the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, for outlining their respective case of a tramp, if I remember rightly, going into amendments. They have all brought extensive knowledge unoccupied premises and striking matches, who was to this debate. We have missed my noble friend Lady found guilty of arson on the basis of recklessness. If Hamwee, who cannot be in her place this afternoon. am right about that, there is no dispute about the I am sure the whole House wishes her well. difference between recklessness and wilfulness in this The amendments all relate to the scope of the connection. offence of child cruelty in Section 1 of the Children I will make a general comment on Clause 62, which and Young Persons Act 1933. Before I address the will not have to be repeated on clause stand part. amendments, it may assist the Committee if I explain Section 1 of the 1933 Act is 80 years old. I am one year our approach in Clause 62. I am grateful for the older than the noble and learned Baroness, and therefore general welcome which the clause has received. I am I was about a year old when this became law. The grateful, too, for the support of the noble Lord, Lord verbiage is much older than that. The verbiage comes Rosser. Many of those welcoming the Bill spoke in from the Poor Law Amendment Act 1868, virtually all support of the amendments. That I understand, and of it from Section 37. I will try to address their concerns. That Act was passed in order to deal with the The offence in Section 1 of the 1933 Act is committed problem of the Peculiar People. The Peculiar People when a person over the age of 16 who has responsibility were very devout people who believed that, whenever for a child under that age wilfully assaults, ill treats, there was illness in the family, you should not go neglects, abandons or exposes that child in a manner anywhere near a doctor. You should pray to Almighty likely to cause unnecessary suffering or injury to health, God, and accept the will of Almighty God. The including any mental derangement. That is the law as consequence was that, when death occurred, and many it stands. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler- of these people were prosecuted for manslaughter, a Sloss, has been among those who have argued for humane jury found them not guilty because of their some time—as she has pointed out, in her discussions utter devoutness, although, of course, it represented with my right honourable friend Damian Green in his utter unreasonableness. It was to deal with that particular ministerial capacity and with me— that the offence of issue that Section 37 was passed. child cruelty in the 1933 Act lacks the necessary clarity when it comes to tackling psychological suffering or This means that we have today still the remnant injury to children. cobwebs of that Victorian verbiage. Victorian verbiage in a statute sometimes can serve us well. The Offences Against the Person Act 1861 is a classic example 4pm which will be with us for many generations, I have no The Government’s view has been that the current doubt. However, there are cases in which one can look offence already covers relevant behaviour which is afresh at the whole situation and possibly create an likely to cause psychological suffering or injury.However, instrument that is more consistent with the needs of to ascertain whether there were any gaps in the law, the 21st century. officials at the Ministry of Justice engaged with the 521 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 522 relevant experts in England and Wales at the end of There is a well established body of case law that sets last year. A ministerial round table on the issue was out the meaning of the term “wilful” in this context. also held in October 2013. Indeed, only last night an amendment to the Criminal Some of those who responded to the Ministry of Justice and Courts Bill tabled by the noble Baroness, Justice expressed concern that the offence of child Lady Finlay, included the word “wilful”. It is a widely cruelty might currently be restricted to physical harm. understood legal term. It clearly provides, among other Others felt that some of the language in Section 1 was things, that the term “wilful”already implies an intentional out of date—the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, or reckless state of mind. We are concerned that explained why some of it indeed dated back to Victorian inserting a definition of “wilfully” into Section 1 of times. the 1933 Act would risk creating uncertainty in respect of the significant number of other existing offences The Government’s conclusion in light of the responses subject to the “wilful” mental state; for example, the received was that while the current law in Section 1 of offence of wilfully neglecting a person lacking mental the 1933 Act is still effective in that it covers cruelty capacity under Section 44 of the Mental Capacity Act likely to cause non-physical, as well as physical, harm 2005. and the courts are able to interpret it appropriately, it could benefit from further clarity. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, accepts that the meaning of “wilful” may well be Clause 62 will provide this clarity by making it established in case law, but argues that police officers, explicit that the child cruelty in Section 1 of the 1933 social workers and others do not really understand Act deals with both physical and psychological suffering what the term means in the context of child cruelty. As or injury and update some of the rather archaic language I said, the term is accurately referred to in the Crown by replacing outdated references to “mental derangement” Prosecution Service and relevant police guidance. However, and the concept of “misdemeanour”. the Ministry of Justice is liaising with the Department My noble friend Lady Hamwee in tabling her for Education, the CPS and the police as to whether amendments, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, any updates or amendments to the relevant guidance in speaking to them, sought an assurance that introducing would be necessary to ensure that the effect of Section 1 into Section 1 an explicit reference to psychological of the 1933 Act, as amended by this clause, is clearly harm will not mean that references to suffering or understood and appropriately applied by front-line injury in other legislation will be read as not extending professionals. We feel that the concerns behind this to psychological harm—in other words, that there is aspect of these amendments would be best dealt with no extension of the concept that we are seeking to put through guidance rather than in the Bill. right here to other legislation. I can assure my noble Amendment 40BZA, together with Amendment 40BZC, friend that Clause 62 is intended only to clarify the also seeks to amend the offence so that it applies to meaning of suffering or injury in the context of Section 1 cruelty against a person under 18 rather than, as now, of the 1933 Act. It reflects the Government’s view that under 16. Young people aged 16 and 17 are lawfully the term already includes, by implication, suffering or able to be married and are generally deemed capable injury of a psychological nature. It is not intended to of living independently of their parents. Those under change any other statute by implication. the age of 16 are generally more vulnerable and dependent We have before us a number of further proposed upon those who care for them. For this reason, we amendments to Section 1 of the 1933 Act. The question believe that it is right that Section 1 of the1933 Act is for the Committee is whether the amendments made focused on protecting persons under the age of 16. to that section by Clause 62 go far enough in delivering I now turn to other aspects of Amendment 40BZB. the necessary clarity in the criminal law on child The effect of proposed new subsection (4) would be to cruelty. The amendments in this group are designed stipulate that two of the five “behaviours”, ill treatment to test that issue. I know that Action for Children, and neglect, can be either physical or emotional in which has campaigned assiduously for the reform of nature. I have made it clear that, in our view, non-physical Section 1, has argued for further changes. I am grateful ill treatment is already covered by the existing law. to that organisation and to the noble Baroness, Lady Should non-physical neglect also be so covered? The Butler-Sloss, for recently meeting the then Minister noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has for Policing, Criminal Justice and Victims, my right explained her view that this would allow police and honourable friend Damian Green, to discuss this matter social services to intervene earlier in cases where they further. suspect emotional neglect of the child is occurring. There is some overlap between Amendments 40BZA, However, in this context, the term “emotional” has no 40BZB and 40BZC, particularly as regards the clear or settled meaning in law and is difficult to requirement that one of the prohibited acts in Section 1 define. Some have already criticised the intention behind of the 1933 Act is committed “wilfully”. I shall deal Clause 62—incorrectly, in our view—as being to with that aspect of the amendments first, because it is criminalise relatively trivial emotional neglect, such as important to understand the full implications of “wilfully”. not buying a child the latest toy for which he or she is I understand the intention behind amendment 40BZA clamouring. I use that as an example of some of the to replace the reference to “wilfully” with the word criticism that the Government have come under in “recklessly”. Amendment 40BZB retains the reference tabling Clause 62. Although “emotional neglect”would, to “wilfully”, but seeks to define it as meaning, if the amendment were accepted, have to lead to “that a person with responsibility for a child foresaw that an act “serious harm” to constitute an offence—and the courts or omission regarding that child would be likely to result in harm, have long held that such suffering or injury must be but nonetheless unreasonably took that risk”. more than trivial—accepting this part of the amendment 523 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 524

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] paints a tragic picture. It might be a scene from might fuel such concerns. I would not want that to Hogarth’s famous print “Gin Lane”; someone going happen. That said, we will consider the proposal further to bed drunk and unknowingly suffocating a child before Report. who shared that bed. The subsection makes it clear New subsection (5) would require the likely impact that if a child under the age of three dies in those on the child constituting the offence to amount to tragic circumstances the offence of child cruelty has “serious harm” or “injury to health” rather than been committed. The subsection may seem anachronistic “unnecessary suffering”. Harm is further defined by and redundant, but sadly children can still die in those new subsection (6). Amendment 40BZA also addresses sorts of circumstances today. This clarification might the issue, but it simply omits the word “unnecessary”. be useful to police and prosecutors. Indeed, to remove I am aware that some consider the reference to the it might cast doubt on whether the child cruelty offence term “unnecessary” as archaic and not relevant to is still applicable in that situation. However, the modern times, although Amendment 40BZB defines Government will think again about whether the subsection harm broadly to include the impairment of, needs to remain on the statute book. “physical, intellectual, emotional, social or behavioural development”. I hope I have shown by the tone in which I have It seems to us that the overall impact of the amendment addressed the amendments that the Government take would be to raise the threshold of unnecessary suffering seriously the points raised by noble Lords. I have to serious harm. Although the noble and learned indicated that we will be considering some matters Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has argued that it would further. I cannot commit to bringing forward any be beneficial to raise the threshold in that way, because government amendments to Clause 62 on Report, but fewer parents would face trivial prosecutions, it seems equally I am not ruling out that possibility. In the to us that if serious harm were to be so interpreted by knowledge that over the summer—we have the advantage the courts, prosecutions could be harder to secure—and of long gap in which we can consider these matters not just in trivial cases. There is a risk that the effectiveness before Report—we will reflect very carefully on all the of the offence would, in turn, be undermined. However, points have been made in this debate, I hope that my that the main purpose of the law is to protect children noble friend will be content to withdraw her Amendment and we are not convinced of the need to amend that 40BZA and will support, as indeed I am sure she will, aspect of Section 1 does not mean that we will not Clause 62 standing part of the Bill. consider those suggestions further. I think that I have addressed the question of my The Earl of Listowel: I have a few words of praise noble friend Lady Walmsley. As for the question of for the Government. I thank the Minister for his the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, about drugs and response and for recognising the importance of what culpability, whether someone under the influence of my noble friend Lady Meacher said about the need to drugs is capable of behaving recklessly is a difficult intervene early to support families to get off alcohol issue, which would depend on the circumstances of and drugs. When it comes to the family courts, the the case. It may not be appropriate to stipulate that in Government have substantially supported the family guidance, but I agree that where child cruelty arises as drug and alcohol courts, which originated from district a result of drug dependency, support services need to judge Nicholas Crichton in the Inner London Family be able to address that. I accept that; I think that that Proceedings Court and ensure that such families have runs through the debates that the noble Baroness and judicial continuity over a 12 year period and that there I have on drug issues. It might be worth me writing yet are good interventions to get the parents off drugs and again to her on that issue, because it is an interesting alcohol so that they can keep their children and not area of policy, and I will copy everyone else in on that. have their children taken into care. It is very much to The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, mentioned the difficulty the Government’s credit that they funded and evaluated of providing help to people who are vulnerable in that this work and now the president of the family court regard. He is right to do so. The Government very is looking to roll it out across the country. Many much understand that that is one difficulty that one families will benefit because of the good work of the has in the whole area of child neglect: the parents Government and this will avoid unnecessary cruelty to themselves have often suffered neglect in their childhoods. their children. His point was well made. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, we have had a very to whom I have already referred, the noble Baroness, good debate. Quite clearly there is a great deal of Lady Howarth of Breckland, and the right reverend consensus across the House. I echo what the noble Prelate the Bishop of Durham all spoke generally in Baroness, Lady Howarth, said. I hope that we can support of what the Government seek to do but also have further discussions about this between now and felt that we ought to consider the contents of the Report and that we come to some consensus as to amendments. what may or may not need clarifying. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ponsonby, and the right reverend 4.15 pm Prelate the Bishop of Durham for agreeing with me I would like to talk about a particular aspect that that we need to level up the age at which we consider perhaps goes back to the portrait of the past painted children to be vulnerable. They may be able to get by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan; going way married legally, but that does not mean that they are beyond that auspicious year of 1933, back to the not vulnerable. There is also considerable consensus Victorian 1860s, with the proposal to remove subsection that the word “wilfully” needs clarifying and there (2)(b) of section (1) of the 1933 Act. That subsection have been various suggestions about how that should 525 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 526 be done. The Government believe that we need Clause 62 believed that timely action was taken in response to even though the law already allows child abuse to be neglect and only 4% thought that it was likely or very interpreted as psychological. In the same sort of way, likely that timely action would be taken to respond to although there may already be agreed definitions of emotional abuse. That 4% is a shocking statistic and “wilfully”, there may still be a need to clarify that in exactly why we are having this debate about being one way or another, based on the various amendments more specific in the legislation on this. That contrasts that we have had. I am sure we can come to some with 75% of respondents to the survey who said that agreement about how that might be done. There has they were very confident that timely action would be also been consensus about the need to remove the taken in response to physical and sexual abuse. word “unnecessary” or perhaps the whole term That is the point of these amendments, which may “unnecessary suffering” and to change it in some or may not be appropriate in this legislation, as I other way. mentioned in my Second Reading speech. I would be I hope that the Minister will be able to accept that very grateful to hear from the Minister that there is we need further discussions about this between now some cross-departmental discussion about how we and Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw ensure that this is framed in guidance to social workers, the amendment. health professionals—whether doctors, school nurses or district nurses—and anybody else involved in a Amendment 40BZA withdrawn. child’s life, such as at sports clubs and certainly including teachers in schools. We need to make sure that the Amendments 40BZB and 40BZC not moved. victims of this are as well covered as the offence and the offender. Clause 62 agreed. That brings me to my final point. This will be effective only if professionals in this area have adequate training to recognise and understand the very particular Amendment 40BZD problems of emotional and psychological abuse. I am Moved by Baroness Brinton reminded of a debate we had during the passage of the Children and Families Bill when my noble friend Lady 40BZD: After Clause 62, insert the following new Clause— Walmsley and I tabled some amendments about exorcism “Child cruelty: duty on police officers to liaise and the emotional trauma that some children face, (1) Where an officer is investigating a potential offence under particularly when exorcism is carried out with them section 1 of the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 (cruelty to present. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said at persons under 16), as amended by section 62 of this Act, he or she must notify the Safeguarding Children and Adults Board of the the time that we did not need a specific law on this, relevant local authority. and she was absolutely right because there is some (2) A notification must include details of the child or children legislation within the current framework—the problem who are considered to be the victims of the offence. was that it was not being carried out by the professionals. (3) The Secretary of State may produce further guidance on That is why these amendments have been proposed. the form a notification under this section may take.” I will not repeat the points that were made in the previous group, but this supports all those made by Baroness Brinton (LD): My Lords, I shall speak noble friends and other colleagues. I beg to move. also to Amendment 40BZE, which follows on from it. These amendments support much of the debate we Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I briefly had on the previous group but move us into the want to support—and not support—the noble Baroness, practical arena rather than the one of legislative definitions. Lady Brinton. I support her obvious wish that proper In the past year, the NSPCC helpline dealt with 8,000 liaison between authorities should take place in terms contacts about emotional neglect and abuse, and 5,500 of safeguarding. All of the codes and practices are cases were so serious that they were referred to local already there, but what is not there is the available authorities for further action. This was a substantial time. It is not that social workers are not trained, increase on previous years. I am glad that the Minister although they could do with more training—certainly recognised that clarity is required on this difficult issue around the issues of satanic and witchcraft abuse, of defining emotional, social, psychological or behavioural although that concerns a tiny proportion of the cases. neglect. However, on the matter of broader emotional abuse, Alongside these statistics, new evidence shows that social workers are pretty keyed in to what is needed. child protection professionals do not have a clear The problem is that they know that they do not have sense of the law in relation to neglect and that the law the time to go in and do the work that is necessary to is sometimes not being applied consistently. My concern help families, and they have no wish in these circumstances in these amendments is to ensure that there are to end up removing families through the courts. mechanisms in place for the moment a potential offence The real answer—and I speak as a vice-president of of child cruelty has been reported, whether to police the Local Government Association—is to look at how or local authorities. In essence, there must be a case local authorities are using their resources and whether conference with all the relevant stakeholders from all enough of those resources are going towards safeguarding the different departments and, crucially, the child children and their general protection and prevention concerned should have access to child and adolescent from abuse. We need to look at whether we are asking mental health services. The reason for this is that two the professions—social workers in particular, but also years ago the NSPCC carried out an online survey the police—to carry out a totally impossible task. If which showed that only 7% of social work professionals you are working day to day intervening in cases, you 527 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 528

[BARONESS HOWARTH OF BRECKLAND] extra measures, which could have the perverse effect of have very little time left to liaise with your colleagues. preventing a focus on the vital areas needed. We need As a professional who has undertaken this work over to ensure that the offences in the Bill are properly many years, I know just how much time it takes to ring enforced in a focused way by those concerned. I would round, organise conferences, ensure that the appropriate have a concern if we sought to write these amendments information is available to everyone and pull all of into the Bill. We should ask ourselves, as the Minister that together. hinted that he would during his summer of reflection, So the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, is absolutely exactly what is needed and what would be best, given right. We need to make sure that the safeguarding the inevitably limited resources that you have in these co-ordination works well. We need to make sure that very important areas. the local authority designated officers, to whom these situations have to be reported, have enough time to 4.30 pm think through what the action should be, and are able to take it. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Brinton for bringing this important The Earl of Listowel: My Lords, I welcome this matter before the Committee. We all recognise that amendment. I would just like to highlight to your every child should be protected from sexual and other Lordships concerns about the availability of child and forms of abuse and neglect, and this Government are adolescent mental health services. In recent information, absolutely committed to doing everything that we can the mental health charity for young people Young to ensure that they have the full protection they deserve. Minds has drawn attention to the fact that, In recent years—I scarcely need to say this to noble Lords—we have seen appalling cases of organised and “34 out of 51 … local authorities in England have reduced their CAMHS budget since 2010. Derby City Council reported a persistent child sex abuse. This includes abuse by cut in its spending by 41% since 2010. … Overall, local authorities celebrities as well as the systematic abuse of vulnerable in London have cut their CAMHS budgets by 5% since 2010. girls in Rochdale, Oxford and other towns and cities. 8 out of 12 councils … have reduced their CAMHS budgets”. Some of these cases have exposed failures by public So there is a real concern that, although the principle bodies to take their duty of care seriously, and some is absolutely right here, the CAMHS services, which have shown that the organisations responsible for are so vital, have unfortunately often been cut. I was protecting children from abuse, including the police, very pleased to meet, with members of the All-Party social services and schools, have failed to work together Parliamentary Group for Children, the honourable properly. Mr Lamb MP, who is the Minister responsible for this That is why, in April 2013, the coalition Government area. It was very encouraging that he was aware that a established the national group on sexual violence against lot of work needed to be done in this particular area. children and vulnerable people, which is led by the In addition, the Select Committee on Education in the Minister for Crime Prevention, my honourable friend other place is producing a report on child and adolescent Norman Baker. This cross-government group was mental health services, which I am sure many of us established to learn the lessons from some of the cases will look forward to—I believe it will be produced in that I have mentioned and the resulting reviews and October. inquiries. As a result of its work, we now have better guidance for the police and prosecutors and better Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con): My Lords, I am sorry identification of children at risk of exploitation through that other commitments prevented me from speaking the use of local multiagency safeguarding hubs. at Second Reading on this important Bill, but I have I assure my noble friend Lady Brinton and other followed its passage closely and I am very grateful to Members of the Committee that we are aware that my noble friend the Minister for the briefings that he there is more to be done. Significantly, as I informed has given, which I have attended. I want to make one the House on Monday last week, the Government are point on the new duty proposed by my noble friend establishing an independent inquiry panel of experts Lady Brinton, and the same point applies—so I shall in the law and child protection to consider whether not repeat the point a second time—to the detailed public bodies and other non-state institutions have proposal for mandatory reporting, which may be made taken seriously their duty of care to protect children by my noble friend Lady Walmsley. I am reassured from sexual abuse. It will begin its work as soon as that my noble friend Lady Brinton was suggesting possible after the appointment of all the members of that, to some extent, her amendment had an exploratory the panel. I hope to be able to report back to the nature. House with details of those members and the terms of The point that I wanted to make is an appeal for reference for the inquiry panel very soon. balance and care on the new regulatory requirements Meanwhile, the work of the national group continues that we put in this Bill. Obviously, I share the horror at apace. As part of this work, the group has considered recent cases of abuse and concern about inadequate the issue of mandatory reporting and whether there is enforcement in the past, which has led to many of the a need for some form of more targeted statutory problems that have come to haunt us. However, I fear reporting regime to deliver better protection for children the imposition of bureaucratic new duties and associated and vulnerable adults. However, the picture here is, by offences on liaison or reporting—that outcome can definition, a very complex one. Some evidence suggests often be achieved by a good service and by common that, in the USA, Australia and Canada, mandatory sense. This Bill brings in a number of new measures, reporting legislation has been accompanied by significant which are good, but we should not be labouring it with increases in the number of referrals of suspected child 529 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 530 abuse and neglect made to the authorities, a large debate. I encourage others to be involved in providing percentage of which in the end were not substantiated. us with views and information on which we can base a As the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, decision that achieves the objective of safeguarding pointed out, there is a risk that child protection services children. can be diverted from the task of increasing the The Government recognise concerns about our current safety of our most vulnerable children to evidence safeguarding system and understand the public’s anxiety gathering and investigation of cases that are eventually about the reporting of child abuse. They are taking unsubstantiated and which often lead to significant this issue very seriously and want to make sure that disruption of family life. Those words from the noble any action they take achieves the desired outcome of Baroness, Lady Howarth, are important to bear in improving safeguarding for all our children and vulnerable mind. adults. Given the complexities involved, it is right that Having said that, there is an emerging consensus we look carefully at this matter. The new independent that action must be taken to address the clear failures inquiry panel is also relevant here. For these reasons, in public protection in the past. Indeed, noble Lords I cannot offer my noble friend an assurance that the may have seen remarks just last week by Peter Wanless, Government will legislate in line with her specific chief executive of the NSPCC—an organisation which proposals. I can, however, give an assurance that the has the protection of children at its heart—which Government take this issue very seriously and, should supported the introduction of a criminal offence making there be a need for further legislative change and covering up and hiding child abuse within institutions action, we will bring forward measures to deliver this illegal. Those and other views are an important as soon as possible. contribution to the debate, and I would like to assure My noble friend highlighted the need for all involved the Committee that this issue is being actively and in child protection to work together more effectively. I carefully considered. The primary concern from all cannot agree more. All the evidence suggests that the involved is the uncertainty about the number of reports best protection and results happen when agencies work that would result and, if there were large numbers, together and when not just a single agency considers how those reports would be triaged to ensure that the the protective needs of the child. That is why the most serious cases were identified. It is hugely important Government have undertaken significant work to improve that, if we are to propose changes of this kind, we our understanding of the different multiagency models make absolutely sure that we get it right. in place to support information sharing around It is against this background that I now turn to the safeguarding responses for vulnerable people. detail of Amendments 40BZD and 40BZE. Those I hope that my noble friend will be reassured by would place a requirement on police, when investigating this. There is already guidance requiring social workers a child cruelty offence under Section 1 of the Children to convene a strategy discussion—the noble Baroness, and Young Persons Act 1933, to inform the local Lady Howarth, will know all about this—with all safeguarding children and adults board of the relevant professionals who are known to the child and investigation. Subsequently, the local authority would the family if they suspect a child may be suffering be placed under a duty to liaise with relevant officials, significant harm. Our guidance is also clear that support such as those at the child’s school, social services or should be given to a child as soon as need is identified. the police. My noble friend seems to be addressing Early help services can be delivered by teachers, youth concerns that relevant children’s services are not sufficiently workers and health workers to support children. It is joined up in their response to child safeguarding. That important to bear in mind that that work can be concern has of course been borne out by several recent invaluable in dealing with these matters promptly. In serious case reviews. I concur absolutely with the the light of what I have said about what the Government intention behind these amendments. As I have indicated, are doing and the invitation to noble Lords to be the Government are already committed to considering involved in that process, I ask my noble friend to these issues. However, as I have also said, there is no withdraw her amendment. easy solution. While we accept that this is a pressing issue, such consideration will necessarily take some Baroness Brinton: My Lords, I thank noble Lords time. In advocating a change in the law, Peter Wanless who have spoken in this debate. I absolutely agree with has acknowledged the need for further discussions as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, that time pressure, to the form of any new reporting duty and to whom it particularly on social workers, is a key and fundamental should apply. problem. It is one of those adages that Governments It is right that the Government take the time to always produce legislation for statutory work but often, consider this important issue fully, in the light of all certainly in the current climate, do not fund the support the evidence and having considered the views of the required to deliver that effectively. I am sure that many experts and stakeholders, who rightly hold strong training is vital. However, I am mindful of the NSPCC views. My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe and the survey of social work professionals. If only 7% believe noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, pointed that timely action is being taken in cases of emotional out that there are other factors that have to be borne abuse, partly because of training and partly because of in mind. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, pointed out identification, there is an issue. Guidance may well be that the issue is far from simple and there are also available, but there are still concerns. funding questions to be considered. I say to noble I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, Lords that their views will be very welcome in this for raising the issue of child and adolescent mental context. I know that a number of Members of this health services. I hope that it may be possible for the House have already been involved in this important Minister and those of us who are interested in this 531 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 532

[BARONESS BRINTON] (2) Failure to fulfil the duty set out in subsection (1) before the issue to meet Norman Lamb to talk about the pressure expiry of the period of 10 days of the matter or allegation or on child and adolescent mental health services, particularly suspicion first coming to the knowledge or attention of the provider or of any person whose services are used by the provider for this group of children who may not automatically as defined in subsection (1) is an offence. be referred to those services. We are told that in some (3) It shall be a defence to show that the LADO or children’s areas there is an 18-month waiting list for a child to be services or that such other single point of contact with the local referred. For a child who is being emotionally abused, authority as such authority may designate for the purpose of that is far too long. reporting was or were informed by any other party during the 10 days referred to in subsection (2) or had been so informed Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I will do my utmost to try before then. to arrange for noble Lords who have spoken—and, (4) A Secretary of State having responsibility for the welfare, indeed, others who may be interested in this subject—to safety and protection of children and of vulnerable adults may in meet Norman Lamb and, indeed, Norman Baker, exceptional cases by a letter or other instrument under his hand who, as noble Lords know, also has responsibilities in rescind or temporarily suspend the duty referred to in subsection (1) in the case of any specified child or children or of any specified this area. vulnerable adult or adults concerning whom it appears to him that the welfare, safety or the protection of such child or children Baroness Brinton: I am very grateful to my noble or of such vulnerable adult or adults would be prejudiced or friend the Minister for saying that. compromised by the fulfilment of the duty referred to in subsection I thank my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for her (1) and may where it appears to him that the welfare, safety and protection of children is furthered thereby exempt any specified contribution, with which I agreed. I was a county entity or organisation and the members thereof that works with councillor for some years and I have concerns about children generally in furtherance of their welfare and safety and the Minister’s comment regarding the priorities of protection or any specified medical officer from compliance with triage when big issues are involved. In Cambridgeshire, the duty referred to in subsection (1) provided always that no we had a case where a family had two adopted children allegation is made against such entity or organisation or member and anyone would have thought they were absolutely thereof or against such medical officer. the apple of their parents’ eye. They were doted on (5) It shall be a defence for any person to show that a Secretary completely. If they had been triaged, people would of State having responsibility for the welfare, safety and protection of children and of vulnerable adults has issued a letter or other have said there was no reason at all to look any instrument under his hand rescinding or temporarily suspending further. Yet these children were being quite severely the duty referred to in subsection (1) in the case of any specified emotionally abused. They had to be removed from child or children or of any specified vulnerable adult or adults their family and placed with foster parents. The foster and it shall be a defence for any person employed by or operating parents’ reports about their next year with the children, as an entity or organisation that works with children or for any as they unscrambled what had gone on, shows we have medical officer to show that a Secretary of State having responsibility to understand that sometimes triage, which can be for the welfare, safety and protection of children and of vulnerable adults has by such letter or instrument under his hand whether obvious in an accident and emergency sense, may be temporarily or permanently exempted it and its members or any much more complex when looking at issues of emotional medical officer from compliance with the duty referred to in needs. subsection (1). Regardless of that, I am grateful to the Minister (6) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable— and look forward to hearing more about the report (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not back on the members of the inquiry panel and its exceeding 12 months or to a fine, or both; remit. I beg leave to withdraw my amendment. (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three years or to a fine, or both. Amendment 40BZD withdrawn. (7) In this section “regulated activity” has the same meaning as in Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006.” Amendment 40BZE not moved.

4.45 pm Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, this amendment is exactly the same as Amendment 40C; it has just been Amendment 40BZEA (in substitution for Amendment put in a different position. I am most grateful to the 40C) right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham for adding his name to it. Abuse of the most vulnerable people in Moved by Baroness Walmsley our society is wicked and a great deal more widespread 40BZEA: After Clause 62, insert the following new Clause— than most of us think. There are those who use power, “Mandatory reporting of abuse in relation to regulated activities strength and blackmail to subject those who cannot (1) Subject to subsection (4), providers of regulated activities fight back to the most horrible abuse. It is done behind involving children or vulnerable adults, and persons whose services closed doors and certainly that is where a lot of it are used by such providers being persons who stand in a position stays. However, there is hope because there are signs, if of personal trust towards such children or vulnerable adults, who only we would look for them. We need not only to see have reasonable grounds for knowing or suspecting the commission of the abuse of children or vulnerable adults in their care whether them but to act upon them as well. We need to give the such commission of abuse shall have taken place or be alleged to abused people opportunities to confide in a trusted have or be suspected of having taken place in the setting of the adult, in the secure knowledge that that person will do regulated activity or elsewhere, have a duty to inform the Local something to make it stop. That is why we need a new Authority Designated Officer (LADO) or children’s services or duty to report abuse. such other single point of contact with the local authority as such authority may designate for the purpose of reporting it or any Of course, I know that legislation is not a silver such matter, allegation or suspicion as soon as is practicable after bullet, but it can help and it has done so in other it comes to their knowledge or attention. countries. In addition, I agree with those who say that 533 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 534 we need more training, awareness raising and the to their institution, or that they may have got the protection of the law for those who expose the horror. wrong end of the stick. This measure would protect Amendment 40BZEA covers not just children but and empower those people, and protect children. vulnerable adults as well, although for simplicity my It is not for teachers, nurses and care workers to remarks will mainly refer to children. However, the decide whether there is a case to go to the police. It is vast majority of what I say also applies to elderly and not their job. It is the job of the experienced officer disabled people, and those with serious mental disabilities within the local authority—as opposed to triage, which too—all groups that have suffered far too much abuse the Minister has just mentioned—to investigate and in recent years by unscrupulous people. then report to the police when they believe that there We heard on the BBC only this morning about may be a case to answer, or to take some other action. cases of abuse of people with mental disabilities where nobody said a word. My intention is not to criminalise There are other parts of the world where there is a people—though there must be penalties if this measure duty in law to report, such as Australia, every state of is to be effective—but to empower those who know which has some version of this duty and some sort of that something is wrong and to protect them as well as penalty. It has been very effective in exposing that the children. The current system is not working. The which was previously hidden. It has been shown that recent report about Jimmy Savile’s activities made that there is a high rate of substantiation of the allegations, very clear. There needs to be an increase in the detection contrary to what the Minister has just said. In the case rate of child abuse in the UK, which is estimated to be of reports by teachers, 70% led to police action prior only 5% of the actual amount, according to the Equality to the new law; and the percentage after the new law and Human Rights Commission’s report in 2010, How came in was 69%, which was very close. The percentage Fair is Britain? would have been higher if it had included situations in which the children needed help but the police were not I shall explain what my amendment does. Proposed involved. Only 2% of reports were found to be malicious. new subsection (1) puts a duty on individuals standing These figures came from Professor Ben Matthews, a in a position of personal trust towards children or highly regarded researcher on these issues; and I am vulnerable adults and who work in “regulated activity”, happy to supply them to the Minister. I heard Ben as defined in Schedule 4 of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Matthews say on the BBC a few months ago, around Groups Act 2006. The duty is to report abuse that is the time of the famous “Panorama” programme: known about and where they have reasonable grounds for knowing or suspecting abuse. If the abuse is adult “Mandated reporting in some form is an essential part of an on child, or on a vulnerable adult, it should be reported effective child protection system”. to the local authority designated officer. If it is child Someone I know used to work as a child safeguarding on child—and there is a great deal of that—they officer in Australia and was familiar with the effective should report it to the local children’s services. If the working of the measure. She also told me that that local authority has chosen to have a single point of Australia has a programme in schools called, “No, contact, the report should be to there. Go, Tell”. It is pretty obvious what that means. When Proposed new subsections (2) and (3) say that the she came to work in this country, she was amazed that report must be made within 10 days of the knowledge we do not have something similar here. That makes or suspicion, unless the abuse has already been reported the case for good-quality PSHE in all schools in which by someone else. children are taught what not to tolerate in terms of Proposed new subsection (4) allows the Secretary invasion of their personal space, and what to do to of State to exempt certain groups from this duty, in keep themselves safe. the interests of ensuring that children and vulnerable What have others said about my proposal? Last adults can feel comfortable disclosing the abuse—for week, as we heard, the NSPCC made a major and example, to their doctor or a confidential helpline welcome shift in its policy on this matter, but it does such as ChildLine. There will be a term of imprisonment not go far enough. It has proposed what I have called or a fine for failure in this duty. “safeguarding lite”. The idea is to have a duty on Proposed new subsection (7) refers to Schedule 4 to closed institutions such as boarding schools and children’s the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 for the homes not to cover up known child abuse. By the way, list of institutions that are covered by the amendment. it is not clear who within those institutions would have It includes all forms of teaching or training of children, that duty. There are several things wrong with that. care or supervision, treatment and therapy et cetera—and First, it ignores the majority of children. There are a similar group in relation to vulnerable adults. In 8 million children in education in this country, and less other words, it relates mainly to the people who would than 1 million of them are in boarding schools and normally need a CRB check in order to do their job; it children’s homes. does not include family members. Secondly, by covering only “known” child abuse, This is a measure whose time has come and I the onus is put on the head teacher or care home encourage the Government to grasp the moment. In a manager to decide whether abuse is known or not. recent independent survey, 96% of the public thought That is not their job; it is the job of local authority that we already had such a law. Although the public designated officer, who has the training and experience would strongly support it, we do not have one at to know whether to report to the police or take some the moment. We have a whole range of regulations, other action. That is what those officers have been professional duties et cetera—none of which have trained to do. Thirdly, the policy is confused. Think been effective in situations in which adults were worried about this: a head teacher in a boarding school has a about being the whistleblower, about reputational damage duty to report a case, but the following term, if he 535 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 536

[BARONESS WALMSLEY] supported it. It is my experience of listening to and takes over a maintained primary school, his duty is hearing stories, not just from within the church sector only under some regulation, with no legal penalty for but from many sectors, that has led me to be convinced ignoring it. that this is a move we need to make. Think about a girl who would have this protection Currently, under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups in a boarding school, but if she goes to a church youth Act 2006, a form of mandatory reporting already club in the holidays she has no protection. Think of a exists; that is to say, a duty to refer arises in certain boy who has protection in a care home, but has none situations connected with regulated activity. Admittedly, when he goes to the local sports club. This matter is that is just for vetting purposes, but what the noble the responsibility of all of us, but in particular it Baroness, Lady Walmsley, effectively proposes is an should be the duty of all those who work with children extension to this. It will mean that those who work in a position of trust. It should go with the job, along with children or vulnerable adults in regulated activity with the duty to get a CRB check. and have reasonable grounds for suspecting or knowing The Local Government Association has briefed us that abuse of these vulnerable groups has taken place all and asked us to look at how the duty would operate are under a duty to report this to the local authority. I in reality. I know there are those who are concerned wholeheartedly support this principle, and I welcome that the system would be swamped with cases if my the suggested amendment. Indeed, every person who amendment became law. I say two things in answer to works with children or vulnerable adults, which includes that. First, if that is the case it means that there is an teachers, doctors, nurses, youth workers and volunteers, enormous amount of child abuse out there going has a responsibility for keeping them safe. No one undetected and untreated. That causes mental health individual could possibly have a complete picture of a and relationship problems throughout the lives of vulnerable person’s situation. All professionals who those abused, and allows perpetrators to get away with come into contact with those vulnerable groups have, it and abuse other children. It also costs the public “a role to play in identifying concerns, sharing information and purse a lot of money in the long term. taking prompt action together”. Secondly, the experience in Australia was that, yes, ThatisfromWorking Together to Safeguard Children. the number of concerns reported increased, but they were investigated and considered by the right people. 5pm There was a very high level of substantiation and only At present, those professionals who fail to report a tiny amount of malicious reporting, which I believe may face disciplinary procedures or be held to account is a fair price to pay. Anyway, such cases are looked in a serious case review. Yet, far too often in the past, into by experienced people who recognise malice when abusers have been allowed to get away with their they see it. crimes because those in authority have failed to report. I expect that noble Lords will recall the case of As the recent NHS inquiry in relation to Jimmy Savile baby Peter and the fact that there was an increase in at Leeds General Infirmary stated, a number of the number of children taken into care after it became organisational failures had allowed someone, public. That has settled down to some extent now, but “as manipulative as Savile to thrive and continue his abusive it means not that too many children are taken into behaviour unchecked for years”. care now, but that too few were before, possibly because The serious case review in relation to Vanessa George of resources. We must ensure that the system has at Little Ted’s Nursery in Plymouth noted that, while sufficient resources and is robust enough to weed out the offender exhibited high levels of sexual behaviour cases that do not warrant action. In any case, the vast and often engaged staff in inappropriate discussions majority of child abuse would not entail the child of sexual activity, no concerns were raised with the being taken into care if she was not already. manager and no action was taken. This failure contributed The Local Government Association talks about us to providing, all having a moral responsibility to report abuse. Of “an ideal environment within which George could abuse”. course we do, but we have had that for years and it has Similarly, there is the case of the teacher Nigel not worked. What we need is not the confused and Leat. Leat was jailed indefinitely in 2011 after admitting complicated system proposed by the NSPCC, but a 36 sexual offences. He had been allowed to get away very simple amendment to the law. The people on with his crimes because, despite numerous reports to whom the duty in my amendment would fall are the head teacher from staff and parents raising concerns already defined in law: there is already a definition of, over a 14-year period, the head teacher had not kept “reasonable grounds for knowing or suspecting”. accurate safeguarding records, had failed to report We need training in recognising the early signs of concerns and ultimately did not meet his responsibilities abuse and neglect for all those who work with children to safeguard children in his care. and vulnerable adults, and we need guidance on how to report it. We need everyone to make it their business More recently, the serious case review into the tragic to protect children and vulnerable adults as a public death of Daniel Pelka at the hands of his mother and duty, but we need to strengthen the law to help those her partner stated: who know something to have the courage to do something. “Unlike the UK, some countries have a process for mandatory reporting of child care concerns to government departments, I beg to move. which raises the question that if it existed here, whether injuries seen upon Daniel would have been independently reported by The Lord Bishop of Durham: My Lords, I support individuals to the authorities”, the amendment. I begin by pointing out that, had I and thereby resulting in further more effective interventions been in this House two years ago, I would not have to protect Daniel. That was published last September. 537 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 538

There are too many other cases. Too often, confusion is any difference between me and the noble Baroness, over the threshold for reporting and concerns about Lady Walmsley, and the right reverend Prelate in what confidentiality have prevented those who have suspicions we want to find at the end of the day. However, I want or concerns that an individual is being abused reporting to caution them and the Government to ensure that those concerns to the appropriate authorities. they look at this in great depth—I know that they are Many countries already have some form of mandatory doing so in other places—and that there are no unintended reporting. Indeed, in Northern Ireland it is an offence consequences from the action that is taken. not to report an arrestable crime to the police which, I do not have a prepared speech, but I would like to of course, includes crimes against children or vulnerable make three points. Of course, it is wrong for anyone in adults. There has already been mention of Australia, a position of authority or in a church or neighbourhood the United States and the vast majority of jurisdictions community to turn a blind eye to known abuse. If in Canada. Of course, in introducing this we would abuse is clearly there, then that must be reported. If we need to look at which of those systems works most have to have a law that says that there are circumstances effectively, because they operate differently. Mandatory in which people abused their position and did not reporting acknowledges the seriousness and often the come forward, the Government should look at that. hidden nature of abuse, and can enable the early In the work that I am doing, the helpline for the detection of cases which may not otherwise come to Lucy Faithfull Foundation, in the Stop it Now! the attention of the authorities. It reinforces the moral programme, has hundreds of people telephoning who responsibility of individuals to report suspected and are not sure about what they are seeing. I have talked known abuse, concerns and/or allegations. Such laws to social workers who have great professional expertise help to create a culture which puts the most vulnerable about their not being certain what they are seeing. It is first, where their welfare is paramount and serves to quite clear that we need to continue the professional illustrate that abuse will not be tolerated in any development of staff in local authorities who work circumstances. with the police, and also the community programmes Of course, I acknowledge that the introduction of which I have mentioned earlier, where children’s services, mandatory reporting will not provide a complete solution parents and schools have all been involved in the local but it will serve to increase professionals’ and the community in developing understanding of these issues community’s awareness of abuse and, as stated, put and therefore are clearer about what action they may the needs of the vulnerable first. This can, of course, or may not take. mean that there is a substantial increase in the number I do not have a speech because I spent the morning of reports being made to the authorities—probably chairing a conference that included people from Australia particularly in the first instance. That is why it is and the chair of an international protection of children essential that such authorities are resourced properly organisation, looking at eradicating child sexual abuse. and that adequate funding is provided so that support There were a lot of experts there. The message that services can respond and intervene where needed, and they asked me to bring was that we should not simply to such an extent that preventive work is not restricted. bring in this sort of reporting without looking carefully In addition, it is essential that professionals, who are at it. The statistics across the world vary according to subject to such a duty, are properly trained so that whom you listen. I ask the Minister to talk to some of they are aware of which cases should and should not the people I know as well as to those whom the noble be reported. Baroness, Lady Walmsley, knows, because they have Last week, the Prime Minister asked in the other different views. Presumably, the Government have it place, within their powers to get the information pretty clearly “should we change the law so that there is a requirement to report from Governments in other parts of the world. I am and make it a criminal offence not to report? … I think it may well not making any judgment about the outcome, except be time to take that sort of first step forward”.—[Official Report, to say that people tell me that it has really interfered Commons, 9/7/14; cols. 282-83.] with good preventive work, because resources have We have already had reference to the NSPCC and I been diverted into investigating hundreds of cases that agree with the critique of the noble Baroness, Lady turned out not to be prosecutable. Howarth, though welcoming Peter Wanless and the I understand why there is a wish, particularly in the NSPCC’s move. church, to get this sort of prosecution. I say to the I therefore support the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, right reverend Prelate that I have probably talked to in tabling this amendment and urge the Government more victims than most in my 50 years, many of them to do likewise. We cannot continue to fail the most children; I know the victims’ groups and I know the vulnerable in our society. If our country is to grow and pain that they have experienced. But it is crucial that thrive, we must act now and ensure that we establish a we base whatever we do in the future on what is culture that will not tolerate abuse. Mandatory reporting happening now, and that we prevent children being of such crimes will assist us in that task. Hearing far abused in the present, and learn from those people in too many stories of unreported behaviour has led me the future. They have a lot to offer but sometimes it seriously to change my mind in the past two years and can be clouded by pain, which I understand. is why I support this amendment. What we want to do, particularly in churches and similar organisations, is to develop a culture of openness. Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I feel We know of a recent investigation into a particular some trepidation in challenging some of the issues area in the Church of England, where misogyny was about mandatory reporting, although I think that we rife and women’s views—never mind children’s—were need to find a different language. I do not think there not tolerated. I am a member of the Church of England 539 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 540

[BARONESS HOWARTH OF BRECKLAND] There could be a range of unintended consequences. so I say this in all good heart but that is one institution However, I say what I said at the beginning, which is that really has to look at it itself—as I know it is doing I think that we are all on the same page. What is because the right reverend Prelate is the chair of the important is that time is spent—not a lot of time; I committee looking at the issues within the church. know that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is There are other organisations that need to look at impatient—ensuring that we have it right in detail and their culture because we are not going to change these that we listen to all the parties who have got evidence, issues by the law, although I think in some areas it will because there is a lot of evidence. There is also new help. We need to get a cultural change in organisations evidence about what works and it is not always the old and our nation. patterns of intervention that work. The Government The NSPCC has got itself in a bit of a twist, I might do well to listen to some of the people I listened think. Talking to some of the staff today, there is a to this morning. very mixed view because they had always been against mandatory reporting—I think that is a very funny 5.15 pm term. They run two helplines. They know the implications Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, the proposal to of blanket mandatory reporting. I have to say that I have mandatory reporting has many attractions. I did not understand proposed new subsections (4) and think, however, that even with the exceptions that the (5) of the amendment. It just shows how complex this noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has suggested, it may issue is because we are talking about people going for be too simplistic. There are already many organisations exemptions. I tend to think that you need an opt-in involved with children that have the obligation to rather than opt-out situation here, and we need to be report. For instance, the safeguarding of the Church precise about those people who might come to be of England requires people to report. The safeguarding prosecuted if reporting is mandatory rather than having of the Roman Catholic Church certainly does. I was to exempt those people who are trying to be helpful. vice-chairman of the Cumberlege Commission, in which I am usually briefer than this but your Lordships we advised the then Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster can see that I feel as passionately as most— how the clergy and members of the diocese of the Roman Catholic Church of England should be reporting, Baroness Walmsley: Perhaps I might provide some among other things. Our report was approved by the clarification. When giving the Secretary of State the Vatican. opportunity to exempt certain groups, I very specifically Obviously, there are the police, social services, the had in mind exactly those groups that the noble Baroness health services and so on. As the noble Baroness, Lady is worried about. Childline and Stop it Now! need to Howarth, said—and I endorse her words of wisdom—we be exempted because they will have disclosures made need to look at this with a great deal of care because it to them and we cannot expect them to go to every is the issue of culture as much as the issue of prosecuting local authority-designated officer throughout the country. for failure to report which lies behind the problems we Children need to be able to disclose to them but when have. I hope the Minister will go away taking with him they encourage the child to disclose also to a trusted not only the understandable suggestions of the right adult, as they often do, the child needs to know that reverend Prelate and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley that trusted adult will do something about it and but also the words of the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, report it to the right people. I hope that clarification as to what really needs to be looked at. I hope he will helps. take all that away before coming to a decision on whether there should be mandatory reporting. I strongly Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I thank the noble support the caution that the noble Baroness, Lady Baroness but I think she knows that I know that Howarth, has put forward. pretty well. My point is that we need to be more precise the other way round and be clearer about those Lord Rosser: I will raise one question, to which I people who will be prosecuted rather than those who hope the Minister will be able to respond. The right will be exempted. That is the way that I would rather reverend Prelate has referred to the indication given in see it because otherwise you are going to catch all sorts the Commons last week by the Prime Minister that the of groups. There are groups in the Catholic Church Government were looking at whether we should change that listen. Without doubt, the helpline should be the law so that there will be a requirement to report seeing a child through a referral. If they are going to abuse and it will be a criminal offence not to report it. have a referral, that helpline really should ensure—I Can the Minister be more specific than he appeared to know that the NSPCC does this with Childline—that be on the last group of amendments about the timescale at the end of the day someone takes action at that within which the Government expect these deliberations point. to be concluded? The Lucy Faithfull helpline for Stop it Now! is more difficult because that is where men are coming Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, this has been a forward about thoughts that they have had that they very high-value debate whose contributions inform do not understand. I am very fearful that many of the Government. I will try to make sure that all those men will not come forward if they think there is colleagues in government with an interest in this matter a likelihood that they are going to be reported even are sent a copy of our debate. before they have committed an offence. Some people I cannot give the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, any who have committed offences will come forward to us details of the timescale. If, in the course of time, I have and we will help them to go to the next stage. more information, I will try to tell him in good time, 541 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 542 but at the moment I cannot. In a way, this debate I can only again seek to reassure my noble friend needs to be taken in conjunction with the one we had and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham on my noble friend Lady Brinton’s debate; it covers that we are actively examining the options and treating very similar territory but it goes just that little bit the matter with the urgency that it deserves. While further. I am grateful to my noble friend Lady Walmsley I cannot undertake to bring forward government for tabling this debate to enable us to look at this amendments on this issue on Report, I certainly expect particular aspect. that, by then, I will have more to say on where we have There is a significant difference between the reached in our consideration of this important matter. amendments. Amendment 40BZEA would place a Having put the issue firmly on the table as my noble duty on those working in regulated sectors, who are in friend has done, I hope that she will now be content to a position of trust in relation to children or vulnerable withdraw her amendment. people to report suspicions of abuse to the appropriate local authority within 10 days. Breach of that duty Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I thank all those would be a criminal offence punishable by up to three who have taken part in this debate. I thank the Minister years in prison. This would mean essentially that for his reply and the right reverend Prelate for his anyone who works with children or vulnerable adults support. would commit a criminal offence if they did not report There has been some discussion about terminology. suspected abuse of any kind. Noble Lords might have detected that I did not use the I hope that I can provide some reassurance to my phrase “mandatory reporting” in my introduction, noble friend Lady Walmsley and the right reverend because I know that it causes some people some difficulty. Prelate the Bishop of Durham about the current process I have also avoided using the word “professionals” in of referrals to social services. The noble Baroness, my amendment. We may not want to call a school Lady Howarth, referred to this. It is important to secretary or a dinner lady a professional, yet they recognise that existing statutory guidance is already would need to have a CRB check to work in a school crystal clear that professionals should refer immediately and they are specified in Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding to social care when they are concerned about a child Vulnerable Groups Act 2006, which is in my amendment. or vulnerable adult. Many thousands of referrals are When my noble friend asks to whom the duty should made to children’s social care each year. In the year apply, my reply is that it is those people. So it is already ending March 2013, there were 593,500 referrals—that in law. is nearly 600,000. I am grateful to my noble friend I agree that the issues are complex and that we Lady Walmsley for offering to provide me with figures should approach the whole thing with a great deal of that she has available, but I think that we need to bear caution. I agree that there are different systems across that figure in mind and appreciate the scale of situation the world and we need to find out which system suits that we are seeking to engage in. this country best. I also agree that we need a culture The most important thing is that people understand change; I am pretty sure that I said so. We need how to spot abuse and neglect and the impact that it training, not just for the professionals, but for the has on children and vulnerable adults. While we are children, so that they understand how to protect continuing to review the evidence for the specific case themselves. We probably need more resources as well of reporting in regulated settings, we are also continuing because, as I said, there is an awful lot of undetected to take action to improve the knowledge and skills of child abuse out there which has never been treated, professionals working with children and other vulnerable and it never goes away. There is no such thing as people. historic child abuse; it is always current in the lives of As I indicated in my response to the previous group the victims, who never lose it. of amendments, the Government fully understand the With that, I have done my very best to persuade you public’s anxiety about the potential underreporting of all; I will have to leave it at that for the moment, but I abuse, particularly sexual abuse. I can wholeheartedly suspect that I may come back to it at the next stage of support my noble friend’s objective with this amendment; the Bill. We shall see. I shall watch with great interest we all want to see improved safeguarding for all children what happens with the terms of reference of the new and vulnerable adults. As I have said, we are actively inquiry committee, the personnel and how they go about considering the case for a mandatory reporting duty, their job. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the but the issues are complex, as the noble Baroness, amendment. Lady Howarth of Breckland, pointed out. As the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said, Amendment 40BZEA withdrawn. we need to consider what form such a duty might take, to whom it would apply and in what circumstances, and what the sanction for failure to comply should be. Clause 63: Possession of paedophile manual This amendment offers one approach, but we have just debated an alternative, more focused proposal, and Amendment 40BZF the NSPCC has suggested a third model. Other organisations working to safeguard children and Moved by Lord Dholakia vulnerable adults will have ideas of their own as to 40BZF: Clause 63, page 46, line 41, leave out paragraph (a) how a mandatory reporting regime should be structured, and insert— as will other noble Lords. I have sought to encourage “(a) to prove that D’s reason for being in possession of the noble Lords to make sure that those conducting such item was necessary for a purpose related to the prevention investigations are aware of their views. or detection of crime” 543 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 544

Lord Dholakia (LD): My Lords, Amendment 40BZF to be a criminal offence under the law that deals with is grouped with Amendments 40BB and 40BC. The such images. However, the possession of purely written amendments are in the name of my noble friend Lady material would not fall under the current criminal law. Hamwee who unfortunately is not well and cannot be We are therefore creating a new offence to target here. I step into her shoes in order to put forward the possession of that potentially dangerous material. The views she would want to express if she were here. offence will carry a maximum sentence of three years’ Amendment 40BZF relates to possession of paedophile imprisonment. We have also included defences to the manuals and seeks to explore the defences that may possession of that material that mirror those already be available. At the moment the Bill allows a defence available to individuals charged with similar possession where the person has a legitimate reason for possessing offences; for example, the possession of indecent a paedophile manual. The amendment changes this to photographs of children under the Criminal Justice allow possession only where it is necessary for the Act 1988 or extreme pornographic material under the prevention or detection of crime. We question whether Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008. The defences there are ever any other circumstances in which possession include a legitimate reason for being in possession of would be legitimate. For example, is research included? material. That will cover those who can demonstrate Is the defence currently included in the Bill too wide? that their legitimate business means that they have a Could it give rise to a defence where the intent of the reason for possessing this material. Such groups may person was to use a paedophile manual to aid them in include law enforcement agencies, the Internet Watch committing or facilitating further offences? Foundation and others. It will also cover those people Amendment 40BB relates to a domestic service working for software companies who may come into provider. Again, the issue here is straightforward. The contact with such material during the course of developing amendment probes paragraph 2 of Schedule 3 relating filter systems, for example. to paedophile manuals. This paragraph applies the Amendment 40BZF would replace the legitimate rules on paedophile manuals to service providers elsewhere reason defence with a narrower one which will offer in the European Economic Area, protection only to those who are preventing or detecting “as well as to a person, of any description”. crime. We believe that there is no need to narrow the The amendment probes what is meant by, defence in that way. As I explained, the legitimate “a person, of any description”. reason defence already covers those in detection and Is this too wide to offer sufficient clarity to those who law enforcement, but it also provides protection to may be caught by this offence? others with a genuine reason for possession of this material. Our legitimate reason defence mirrors a long- Amendment 40BC relates simply to a drafting point. established defence in this sensitive area of the law: Again, the forensic ability of my noble friend Lady one that is well known to the police, prosecutors and Hamwee has picked up this point. The current drafting the courts and that has worked well. We can therefore of paragraph 5(3)(c) of Schedule 3 requires that a find no reason to narrow the protection that that service provider promptly removes information on a defence will provide. Any defences need to be tailored paedophile manual. Sub-paragraph (4) then states that to the circumstances of a particular offence. The offences this applies only in certain circumstances. Why not in Clauses 41 and 63 are clearly very different. We are simply have sub-paragraph (4) state what will happen satisfied that the narrower defence in Clause 41 is in the event it applies rather than referring back to appropriate given the nature of the participation offence. sub-paragraph (3)(c)? I am sorry about all this confusion. Legal people may have a better ability to interpret this. My noble friend has indicated that Amendments 40BB I am sure my noble friend the Minister will forgive me and 40BC are probing amendments to test aspects of for raising this very important point. I beg to move. the drafting of Schedule 3. That schedule ensures that the provisions which make illegal the possession of paedophile manuals are consistent with the UK’s 5.30 pm obligations under the e-commerce directive, adopted Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con): I begin by in 2000. The provisions in Schedule 3 are nothing new wishing my noble friend Lady Hamwee a speedy recovery. and mirror those already in place for other similar It seems a little odd not to have her here when she has offences—for example, the possession of prohibited been omnipresent in our debates on the Bill. images of children offence in Section 62 of the Coroners Before I speak to the amendments, it may assist the and Justice Act 2009 and the related provisions in Committee if I provide some background to Clause 63. Schedule 13 to that Act. The clause creates a new offence of the possession of Amendment 40BB would amend paragraph 2 of the paedophile manuals—that is, any item that contains schedule. The first half of paragraph 2(1) of Schedule 3 advice or guidance about abusing children sexually. states that the possession offence applies to a domestic The Government have been made aware of a potential service provider who is in possession of a prohibited gap in the law which allows the possession of written item in an EEA state other than the United Kingdom. material that contains practical advice on how to The words in brackets in the second half of that commit a sexual offence against a child. Such material sub-paragraph reiterate that the offence also applies is commonly referred to by investigators as “paedophile to, manuals”. “a person, of any description”, The material that we are targeting is deeply disturbing who possesses such material in England, Wales or and has clearly been designed to facilitate sexual offending Northern Ireland. The qualifying words “of any against children. Possession of some of that material, description” are designed to make clear that, in those where illustrated with indecent images, is likely already circumstances, the offence applies to all persons: that 545 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 546 is, not just domestic service providers. The words are “(2) A person guilty of an offence under section 2A is liable— not intended to imply, as was, I think, my noble friend’s (a) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term concern, that the person can be a legal or corporate not exceeding seven years or a fine (or both), person, as well as a natural person. As my noble friend (b) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not will be aware, by virtue of the Interpretation Act 1978, exceeding six months or a fine not exceeding the the word “person” is taken to have that meaning in statutory maximum (or both).”” legislation anyway. Baroness Meacher: The amendment is intended to Amendment 40BC is intended to clarify the application ensure that anyone encouraging or assisting in the of paragraph 5(4) of the schedule. Paragraph 5 provides promotion of the practice of female genital mutilation an exception from liability for a service provider who will face an investigation and, if found guilty, a conviction. possesses the prohibited material while storing the We propose that the penalty for those offences should information in certain circumstances. Sub-paragraphs (2) be severe: a maximum prison sentence of up to seven and (3) set out the two conditions that must be satisfied years for a conviction on indictment. for the exclusion to apply. Sub-paragraph (3)(c) provides Local councils have a role in tackling the issue as a that where the service provider has actual knowledge result of their duties to safeguard children and they of certain facts, it will be excluded from criminal liability are well placed to work with the relevant communities only if, in addition, it promptly removes the prohibited in their area where FGM is practised in order to material or disables access to it. Sub-paragraph (4) reduce the number of women and girls at risk of that sets out the facts that give rise to that additional mutilation. It is appalling to contemplate that 20,000 obligation. girls and women in this country are currently at risk of The effect of the amendment would be to remove being subjected to FGM. Professionals and third-sector the availability of the exception in paragraph 5 altogether, experts believe that the practice will be eradicated where the service provider obtains actual knowledge only through a change in custom and culture in the of the facts set out in sub-paragraph (4). The communities where it happens. We will not do it through Government’s intention, as required by the e-commerce individual charges. directive, is that a service provider should not be criminally We can be encouraged that there are many members liable in those circumstances as long as the information of communities with a history of practising FGM is promptly removed or access to it is disabled. who are now willing to make the case against it. I recognise that these issues are not straightforward However, we also know that there are community and and that my noble friend Lord Dholakia will wish to faith leaders who promote and encourage the practice study my response in Hansard. If, having done so, he of FGM. This amendment would make it absolutely or my noble friend Lady Hamwee requires further clear that authorities can, and indeed must, step in to explanation, I will be happy to provide it. However, prevent the community and faith leaders perpetuating for now, I trust that he will be content to withdraw the this practice. The approach of these faith leaders is amendment that he moved on behalf of my noble likely to be through generating pressure on families friend Lady Hamwee. who might otherwise turn away from FGM for their daughters. Lord Dholakia: My Lords, I am grateful to the Currently, anyone inciting the carrying out of FGM Minister for the explanation that she has offered. I will can be prosecuted for incitement, regardless of whether certainly make sure that my noble friend Lady Hamwee the underlying substantive offence is committed or receives a copy of Hansard. Whether she is cheered by attempted, under Sections 44 to 46 of the Serious it, we will soon find out at the Report stage. In the Crime Act 2007. I understand that the CPS believes mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. that there is no need to create a new offence on the Amendment 40BZF withdrawn. basis that legislation already exists to criminalise incitement. However, the purpose of this amendment Clause 63 agreed. is to clarify the law to make it clear that even indirect promotion of FGM by community and religious leaders could be dealt with under the law. It is not difficult to Amendment 40BA imagine how religious leaders might stop short of Moved by Baroness Meacher incitement but nevertheless through general persuasion 40BA: After Clause 63, insert the following new Clause— and comments as leaders of these communities might “Offence of encouraging or assisting the promotion of the indeed lead families to be fearful if they do not comply practice of female genital mutilation with the religious standards of their history. (1) The Female Genital Mutilation Act 2003 is amended as It is relevant to note that the Local Government follows. Association strongly believes that there is a case for (2) After section 2 (offence of assisting a girl to mutilate her this amendment and for bringing the offence of promoting own genitalia), insert— or encouraging FGM into the 2003 Act so that it sits “2A Offence of encouraging or assisting the promotion of the alongside the offence of practising FGM itself. This practice of female genital mutilation would help law enforcement officers and legal practitioners A person is guilty of an offence if he encourages or assists with no prior experience of FGM to locate the offence. in the promotion of the practice of female genital It is no good if some offence is there if the key people mutilation.” are not aware of it. We know that the Modern Slavery (3) In section 5 (penalties for offences)— Bill has the similar aim of consolidating and clarifying (a) after “under” insert “sections 2 and 3 of”, the relevant legislation. I think it is a very good example (b) at the end insert— to follow. 547 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 548

[BARONESS MEACHER] the practice of female genital mutilation, which went I hope very much that the Government will agree out in prime time on BBC television’s first channel, that this is such an important and yet difficult area of BBC1. It was quite explicit and voiced the alarm of law that our amendment is justified. I beg to move. Somali women themselves, who explained to me that the perpetuation of this practice resided with the Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I had intended to grandmothers in their community who felt that what put my name to this amendment, but I am afraid I was was good enough for them should be imposed on their rather busy last week and did not in fact remember to children. It was the mothers who remembered their do so. I strongly support the noble Baroness, Lady own experience who were eager to have that change Meacher. for their children. It has not yet happened. Getting Perhaps noble Lords will permit me to tell a short this accepted is a disgraceful slow process. story. Yesterday evening I was one of eight judges for The explanation lies in the fact that, in the 1990s, the “Speak Out” competition for 15 year-olds across we were very aware of multiculturalism and the need the whole of London and Essex. We had 15 brilliant to respect other cultures. It beggars belief now, but at 15 year-olds, and each had to speak between one and the time we felt that, if that was their culture and their three minutes on the subject of their choice. One girl tradition, then so be it; we felt that we were not in a of 15 stood up and talked about female genital mutilation. position to feel superior. We have come a long way, but It was an absolutely brilliant speech. Unfortunately, we have not come far enough. It is time to press she did not win, but it was absolutely breathtaking forward with this and not to go on talking about it. that a 15 year-old could be telling us what we should be doing about it. She was utterly shocked that we were not effective in stopping this happening—this Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I briefly add my absolutely abhorrent crime, which is hitting so many voice to this. Again, if I had not had quite such a young girls nowadays in this country because they are troubled week, I might have added my name to this being taken to other countries, or even it is being done amendment. here. A couple of years ago I went, on behalf of the Lord Anything—absolutely anything—that can encourage Speaker, to a conference about this. In my lifetime, I the public who are part of this system, or who know have seen a great deal in terms of abuse, but seeing a about this system, to be reminded that it is a crime film of this actually happening shook me to my core. should be taken forward. Anyone who might be involved We did not just hear the screams, but we actually saw in this in any way, perhaps as a member of a family the action that was happening to this young woman. where one member may be considering taking the girl When we talk about female genital mutilation, it gets a to Sudan or to South Sudan or wherever else it may little sanitised at times. It is utterly appalling pain. be, should now say, “Just be very careful, as this is Some young women in foreign countries die because something that is not acceptable in this country, either of the follow-up, and certainly we know young women for those living here or those coming in or out”. in this country are traumatised. I, too, hope that the Government will take this away. I do hope that the Minister will see that this has all sorts of values. That is to say that it has the value of actually dealing with the offence of encouraging or Lord Rosser: My Lords, the purpose of our assisting the promotion of this abhorrent practice Amendment 40CA in this group is to provide anonymity and, secondly, it would send out a powerful message for victims of female genital mutilation by providing that those who are around those who do it are possibly for any offences under Sections 1 to 4 of the Female in danger of criminal offences themselves. I really Genital Mutilation Act 2003 to come within the terms hope the Government will pick this one up. of Section 2 of the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992, which for example provides anonymity for rape 5.45 pm victims and victims of various other sexual offences to Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB): My Lords, the encourage more to come forward. Minister will know that I have spoken on this subject We recognise that protecting young girls and women several times in the House and asked Questions on it. from FGM requires action beyond legislation to tackle Female genital mutilation is one of the most shocking the social norms in which it operates, and implement a things that is happening in our society. I would very preventative approach. However, if progress is to be much like to endorse the words of my noble friends made in addressing and preventing what has already and anything that brings home to the general public been described in this debate as the abhorrent practice the seriousness of this offence. At this very moment, in of female genital mutilation, then cases will have to be our country young girls are having their genitals mutilated. successfully prosecuted through the courts. That means It is the most appalling thought. Anything that can be people who are victims of this practice being willing to done to strengthen the law; anything that can make come forward and give evidence. As we know, this is people realise how very seriously the Government take not some small, minority offence. It has been estimated this issue, which I know they do; anything that can be that more than 20,000 girls under 15 are at high risk of done should be done. female genital mutilation in England and Wales each year, with the risk being highest for primary school Baroness Bakewell (Lab): My Lords, I would like to girls. add my support for this amendment and perhaps add The Director of Public Prosecutions, who will surely a story of my own. This is not a new issue. As long ago know better than anyone the difficulties in persuading as the 1990s, I made a television programme exposing victims to come forward and give evidence in court, 549 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 550 has called for victims to be given the right to anonymity Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, I commend to make it easier to bring charges against alleged noble Lords who spoke to the amendments in this perpetrators. She was quoted as saying recently: group, which show how seriously this House takes the “It is a very difficult injury to talk about. It is an abuse of their practice of female genital mutilation. These amendments body and it is not a part of the body that people want to talk seek, in their different ways, to further our common about in public”. objective of ending the abhorrent practice of female The Home Affairs Select Committee has also identified genital mutilation. that a key difficulty in securing prosecutions is the In moving Amendment 40BA, the noble Baroness, ability to gather sufficient evidence and has said that, Lady Meacher, is, as she explained, seeking to give effect “if victims had the protection of press and broadcast anonymity, to a recommendation made by the Local Government this might encourage more to come forward. … we recommend Association. The association recommended that a specific the Government bring forward proposals to extend the right to anonymity under the Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 1992 offence of “inciting and condoning”the practice of female to include victims of FGM”. genital mutilation would make it easier to bring cases Our view is similar. Anonymity is granted to victims against those who advocate it, whether they reside in of rape, among other offences, because of the sensitivity or are visiting the UK. As I hope Clause 64 demonstrates, and stigma attached to such an offence, and the sensitivity the Government are open to identifying ways in which and stigma that surround female genital mutilation the law might be strengthened to help put an end to must be at least as intense. Victims should be protected female genital mutilation and better to protect victims. in the way called for in our amendment. If anonymity We are already considering recommendations made would encourage more victims to come forward, it by the Director of Public Prosecutions, one of which must surely be overwhelmingly in the public interest to we will debate shortly, and we are looking carefully at go down this road, particularly taking into account the recent recommendations made by the Home Affairs the lack of prosecutions to date. Where cases of female Select Committee, to which the noble Lord referred. genital mutilation go to court, victims should also be In this instance, however, I hope to persuade the noble entitled to the same support and special measures to Baroness that her proposed amendment is unnecessary which other vulnerable victims are entitled. I sincerely as the behaviour that it seeks to criminalise is already hope that the Minister will be able to give a positive covered and can more effectively be punished by existing response. provisions of the law. The common-law offence of inciting the commission Earl Attlee (Con): My Lords, I am grateful for the of another offence was abolished by Section 59 of the expert way in which the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, Serious Crime Act 2007 with effect from 1 October 2008, introduced his amendment. I have no greater arguments and replaced by the provisions in Part 2 of that Act, than the ones he adduced. I strongly support him and which I will refer to as the 2007 Act. They are as urge the Minister to consider his suggestion very carefully. follows: intentionally encouraging or assisting an offence; I have one final thought: what would the view of noble encouraging or assisting an offence believing it will be Lords be if we were talking not about FGM but MGM? committed; and encouraging or assisting offences believing one or more will be committed. To be convicted of Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, it would not be in encouraging or assisting an offence, it is not necessary order for me to say anything about the amendment for the anticipated principle offence to take place. In moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, as I was addition to these legislative provisions, if an FGM not in my place when it was moved. I support the offence is actually carried out then anyone who aided, noble Lord, Lord Rosser, in his attempt to get anonymity abetted, counselled or procured the offence would be for the victims of FGM, and I hope the Government liable as an accessory. will consider it. Indeed, I think there may be a case for We believe that the existing law is sufficient to cover going a little further than that, because it could be that those who encourage or assist the practice of female there are women within communities who know what genital mutilation and those who take part in an is happening who might be more encouraged to come offence in a secondary way, whatever their reason for forward and say so if it were guaranteed that they doing so. The offences in Part 2 of the 2007 Act also would have anonymity. It is something that needs have extraterritorial application: they can cover those looking at. who encourage or assist, wholly or partly from this country, offences of female genital mutilation that Baroness Meacher: The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, they know or believe will be committed abroad. introduced his amendment extremely effectively and Baroness Meacher: I am sorry to interrupt the has said all that needs to be said, but I would hate the Minister but I wonder whether I have understood this Minister to think that there was no support for it. correctly. My understanding is that the current law Therefore, I simply say that we need these charges to talks about aiding a particular offence of FGM. What be investigated and pursued, and if victims are not we are concerned about is the general promotion by given anonymity, it seems an impossible task. I hope community leaders and faith leaders of this practice. I that the Minister will be able to support the amendment am not sure whether this is the case, but my feeling is proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, as well as that perhaps the current law does not fully and effectively my amendment. cover that point. Baroness Butler-Sloss: I also support the amendment Baroness Williams of Trafford: I think I will get on proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. I meant to to that further on. As the noble Baroness said, we need say so earlier, but forgot. to go beyond the law and think about other aspects of 551 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 552

[BARONESS WILLIAMS OF TRAFFORD] that already applies to victims of other sexual offences. how we stop this happening in our communities. I hope This follows a recommendation by the Director of I will answer her question, but if I do not I am sure she Public Prosecutions. FGM is an offence of a particularly will stand up again. personal and sensitive nature, and the DPP believes This possibly comes on to it: a person convicted of that it is important that its victims should know that encouraging, assisting, aiding or abetting an offence is their identity will be protected if a prosecution takes liable to any penalty for which he would be liable on place. The DPP has argued: that this protection needs conviction of the principle offence. So a person convicted to be guaranteed, rather than discretionary; that it of encouraging, assisting, aiding or abetting an offence should apply from the outset, when an allegation is of female genital mutilation would be liable, on conviction first made, rather than from the point of charge; and on indictment, to imprisonment for up to 14 years. that it should last indefinitely. The director believes Amendment 40BA, which provides a maximum penalty that such anonymity would go far to encourage the of seven years’ imprisonment for encouraging or assisting further reporting of this offence. the promotion of the practice of female genital mutilation, These are powerful arguments, and we are considering would therefore have the effect of reducing by half them carefully. In doing so, we will also take account the maximum penalty currently available for such of the fact that, in its recent report on FGM, the behaviour. Home Affairs Select Committee endorsed the DPP’s The noble Baroness is, of course, right that the proposal. There are some questions that we need to long-term and systematic eradication of FGM in the resolve, but I assure your Lordships that the Government UK will require practising communities to abandon see the force of the argument, and I am confident that the practice themselves. While the criminal law can they shall shortly be in a position to announce their play a part in this, the recent Home Affairs Select conclusions. Committee report quite properly also pointed to the Going back to the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, I need for more effective engagement with communities have just been given an additional note. I will read it to persuade them to abandon the practice. To this end, out: “Where the general encouragement of FGM related the Government are spending £100,000 on the FGM to a specific act, constituting an offence would depend community engagement initiative. Charities were invited on the circumstances of the case, but we believe such to bid for up to £10,000 to carry out community work conduct could be covered”. If that still does not answer to raise awareness of FGM among women who have her question I am happy to write to her. But on the already been affected by FGM and young girls at risk, basis of everything I have said, and in the knowledge as well as men. We are now funding 12 organisations that we can and should return to this issue on Report, to deliver community engagement activity, and we will I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, and the noble continue to work with civil society organisations to Baroness, Lady Meacher, will be content at this stage examine how we can support and facilitate their not to press their amendments. engagement with communities in the UK. It is noteworthy that in its report the Home Affairs Select Committee Baroness Meacher: I thank the Minister for her made no recommendation in favour of a new offence careful response. I hope that the Minister will agree of promoting or encouraging FGM. with me that she has not really answered the point. I am grateful, therefore, that she will take this back, and I now turn to Amendment 40CA. As the noble hope that we can perhaps have discussions with Ministers Lord, Lord Rosser, has explained, this amendment and officials to sort it out. On that basis I withdraw would extend to the victims of FGM the same anonymity my amendment. that already applies to the alleged victims of many sexual offences. Amendment 40BA withdrawn.

6pm Schedule 3: Paedophile manuals: providers of information society services Baroness Meacher: Well, the Minister did say that I could stand up again if she did not answer my point. Amendments 40BB and 40BC not moved. I was listening very carefully to her words, and they still related to a specific offence of FGM, whereas this Schedule 3 agreed. amendment is about its general promotion—for example, Clause 64 agreed. in a faith leader’s sermon—which is a different thing. I only ask the Minister if she could take this back and Amendments 40C and 40CA not moved. consider it. I have said enough, and I do not want to interfere with her answer to noble Lords. Amendment 40CB Moved by Baroness Butler-Sloss Baroness Williams of Trafford: I shall certainly go back and think about what the noble Baroness has 40CB: After Clause 64, insert the following new Clause— said. There is no provision in law for condoning something, “Offence of abduction of child by other person and that is what she suggesting. Perhaps I could clarify In the Child Abduction Act 1984, in section 2(1) (offence of abduction of child by other person), for “sixteen” it with her further. I apologise if I have not quite substitute “eighteen”.” answered her question. Can we now move on to Amendment 40CA from Baroness Butler-Sloss: MyLords,wemovetoa the noble Lord, Lord Rosser? He talked about the different subject, that of child abduction. There are two same anonymity being applied to victims of FGM separate amendments. The first one, Amendment 40CB, 553 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 554 deals with an anomaly—that there are two separate of grooming, because it requires that the adult has Acts, which deal differently with children or young taken or detained the child, implying physical control people. If the child is in care, and the care order goes or restraint. We know that psychological and emotional beyond the age of 16, under Section 49 of the Children manipulation are the main tools used by perpetrators Act 1989 the offence of abduction runs to the age of to control and groom vulnerable children. The Crown 18. But under the Child Abduction Act 1984, which Prosecution Service is therefore not always able to incorporates the Hague convention of 1980, the age take prosecutions forward, due to the child seeming goes to 16. There is therefore an anomaly. The point of willingly to remain with the offender, when the offender the amendment is simply to have parity, and the parity makes no act physically to detain the child. Creating should go up rather than go down. an offence of breaching a notice would address this The second amendment, Amendment 40CC, will issue and allow the police to intervene earlier, rather take a little longer to explain. It deals with what is than having to wait for a more serious offence to occur called a “child abduction warning order”. This was when, of course, what we want is for them to be able to once called a “harbouring order”. It has been a very intervene early. useful, but inadequate, tool of the police. In particular, While the police find child abduction warning where they have seen a teenager being groomed, they notices a valuable tool, their lack of a statutory basis have gone to the man concerned, and they have explained leads to an unfortunate consequence. Police told the to him that he must obey an order not to have anything inquiry about occasions when they issued notices to do with the girl. However, if he breaks that order, as a deterrent but were then unable to act once they they have absolutely no powers at all. Consequently were breached. If they are to have any power in these the police are very anxious that their useful order to situations, all concerned need to know that the police try and interrupt a grooming process for young girls, will and can act when their instructions are clearly in particular, should in fact have a statutory backing. ignored. Instead, the current situation erodes victims’ The next stage is an arrest under either Section 49 of confidence in the ability of the police to protect them— the Children Act 1989 or Section 2 of the Child and they have told us that. Of course, perpetrators’ Abduction Act 1984. fear of consequences will diminish when they see However, there is a gap between the police telling police unable to act. So we need to put this on a someone, “Lay off this girl, you’re grooming her and statutory basis. you mustn’t do it”, and the point at which the girl has In relation to bringing the age into parity between either been detained or taken, when it is quite simply children in and out of care, the point was made by the too late. What is therefore needed is the police power— children who spoke to us that children’s vulnerability which they use—but put on to a basis that they can is not determined by their membership of a particular then enforce. If the man concerned does not desist group or their legal status. There are many profoundly from his grooming of the girl, he can then be dealt vulnerable children who are not in the care system and with under a statutory order. One of the problems who need the protection of the law. We heard from about the words in the two Acts of “detained” or some of those girls and boys. Indeed, there are many “taken” is that quite often it is a psychological or more victims of sexual exploitation who are not in emotional relationship between the girl, who is often care and have not been in care than there are within it. much younger, and the man, which is not capable of During the course of the inquiry, we met some children being treated as coming within either of the two who have been through some appalling things who relevant sections. Therefore the warning order could had never been in care. While it is too late for them, we do a lot of good, and it would be useful. I hope the need to make sure that other profoundly vulnerable Government will take this away and look at it. It is young people who happen to be living with their definitely what the police want, it would give a real bit parents have the same protection as those under the of power to them and it would fill a serious gap in the state’s care. possibility of young people being abducted, particularly The Government have shown real engagement with by older men. I beg to move. the inquiry’s findings so far, and I am delighted that they have adopted one of the inquiry’s recommendations Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, I support both by tabling an amendment to the Criminal Justice and these amendments. I recently sat as a member of a Courts Bill on the topic of grooming. It is clear that Back-Bench inquiry into the legislation used to tackle these amendments on abduction would be another sexual exploitation, which was supported very ably strong step towards giving the police the tools that by Barnardo’s. We took oral evidence from a number they need to prevent some truly vile behaviour. of police forces. There was unanimous support for putting these child abduction notices on a statutory Baroness Howarth of Breckland: My Lords, I was footing, which formed part of our recommendations. recently approached by a very senior ex-policeman At present they form no more than an administrative with whom I had worked in the past, who was trying procedure for the police—useful, I am told, for to help a number of children’s homes and hostels in collecting evidence for the future, scaring perpetrators the north of England. He found that there were men and letting them know that the police are watching who came to the hostel and took older girls out, and them but, in and of themselves, pretty toothless. the hostel was totally unable to do anything about it. Of course, there is existing legislation for child They could simply go and fetch the girls back, but the abduction offences. Sometimes, perpetrators who breach girls were so emotionally engaged, as the noble and warning notices are prosecuted under this other legislation. learned Baroness and the noble Baroness said, that But the current legislation is often not useful for cases they went out again. What the hostel desperately 555 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 556

[BARONESS HOWARTH OF BRECKLAND] statutory footing. The Government note that proposals needed was the capacity to take stronger action against to strengthen the impact of these orders have the the men, and I believe that that is what would happen support of the police, legal experts, representatives of were we to accept the essence of these amendments. local agencies, young people who have been affected by sexual exploitation, children’s charities and others. 6.15 pm As part of the work of the National Group on Sexual Lord Rosser: My Lords, we are associated with Violence against Children and Vulnerable People, my these amendments and support them. I do not intend ministerial colleagues have given assurances that the to go through the points already so eloquently made Home Office would look at the effectiveness of the by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, existing child abduction warning notices and, in liaison and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, except simply with police colleagues, examine how best this tool can to repeat that the current system of non-statutory be used in future. In doing so, we will consider carefully notices does not encourage confidence in the system the operational benefits of putting these notices on a from victims and their families in the ability of the statutory footing and how such a statutory scheme police to protect them when the provisions are breached. might operate. We are currently consulting carefully The notice leads to no action being taken unless the with policing colleagues to seek their views on the thresholds of an abduction threat have been met, potential use of a statutory notice and whether, in which is not always the case. As has been said, the their view, further changes are required to better protect threshold means that the adult must have taken or children. detained the child. Amendment 40CC is an important contribution to Creating an offence of breach of a proposed child this debate. The existing non-statutory child abduction abduction warning order is likely to strengthen victims’ warning notices are issued by the police. That is entirely confidence in seeking help and protection, since it will appropriate where breach of a notice is not, of itself, a lead to action being taken against the perpetrator if criminal offence. But it would be an unusual step they breach the order. Once again, I hope that the for the police themselves to impose what amounts to Minister will be able to give a positive response. a restraint order or injunction, breach of which is a criminal offence. If we made it statutory, we would Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Again, this has been an have to consider that. Compare, for example, restraint interesting debate, and I thank all noble Lords who orders under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 have spoken in it. Child exploitation is an abhorrent which are granted by the courts. Other civil preventive crime and we are determined to tackle it in whatever orders, such as serious crime prevention orders and form it takes. The findings of a recent parliamentary gang injunctions which are dealt with elsewhere in this inquiry, of which noble Lords will be aware, chaired Bill, are also subject to judicial oversight. We would by Sarah Champion MP and supported by Barnardo’s, need to see how that played in with the current have been very helpful in contributing to the ongoing arrangements of non-statutory warning notices. work being done by the Government to tackle child Other issues that we need to consider are the test for sexual exploitation. The recommendations of that inquiry the grant of an order, the prohibitions or restrictions will be crucial in helping to inform our policy and that may be attached to an order and the penalty for improve our understanding of this form of offending breach. I note, too, that the amendment requires a and, indeed, what more we should be doing about it. child to have been found two or more times in the Specifically, the inquiry received significant evidence company of the person to be made the subject of an relating to child abduction warning notices and, as a order. Elsewhere, the inquiry proposed amending the result, this issue featured prominently in their report grooming offence in Section 15 of the Sexual Offences and is now the subject of these two amendments. Act 2003 to remove the requirement for a second It might help if I updated noble Lords on government contact with the child. The Government have now thinking in this area as at present. This Government tabled an amendment to the Criminal Justice and Courts have already taken clear action to tackle child sexual Bill to that end, as my noble friend Lady Walmsley exploitation. As the Committee will recall, as part of said. We need to consider whether the approach taken the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act in child abduction warning notices should mirror that 2014, we are introducing a number of new police in the amended grooming offence. powers. First, we are providing for more effective civil Amendment 40CB seeks to raise the age threshold prevention orders, namely the new sexual harm prevention from 16 to 18 years for the child abduction offence in order and the sexual risk order. Secondly, new powers Section 2 of the Child Abduction Act 1984, bringing it will allow the police to require hotels and similar into line with the summary offence in Section 49 of establishments to provide information about guests the Children Act 1989 of abducting a child in care. whom they believe may be involved in sexual exploitation. Children in care are particularly vulnerable and that is Thirdly, we are bringing in strengthened powers for why the Children Act 1989 makes it an offence to take police to close premises associated with child sexual any child who is in care, including a 16 or 17 year-old, exploitation, a provision championed by the noble away from the person responsible for them without Baroness, Lady Smith, who cannot be in her place lawful authority or reasonable excuse. However, while today but for whose support on this matter I am very we recognise the arguments made for consistency, grateful. there are contrary arguments and difficult issues raised. With regard to child abduction warning notices, Young people aged 16 and 17 can live independently I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for of their parents and, in many respects, are able to articulating the case for putting these notices on a make their own decisions about how they live their 557 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 558 life, including their sexual relationships. It is in recognition Some of the girls and some of the parents were seeking of this that the Child Abduction Act 1984 applies only help; and some of the girls probably were over 16. where the child is under 16 and the 1980 Hague Therefore the vulnerability of the young is not limited Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child to those within the care system. Abduction ceases to operate when the child reaches I can see very well that it would be quite wrong to the age of 16 years. change the 1984 Act to include international abduction. However, we are committed to examining the case However, I ask the Minister to reflect on whether that for placing child abduction warning notices on a statutory would not meet some of the really shocking issues that footing. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has made a have occurred across not only the north of England reasoned case for doing so and it deserves serious but the Midlands and, relatively, the south of England. consideration. All speakers tended to favour the idea The vulnerable children there may need help beyond that statutory footing for the child abduction warning the age of 16. It is not beyond the wit of parliamentary notices should be considered. While Report stage is draftsmen to put in an amendment to the 1984 Act some three months off, I cannot say to noble Lords dealing with grooming in England and Wales that may that we will have completed our review by that point. I lead to abduction and not going across the international can undertake to update the House on progress and, child abduction arrangements, which of course we of course, noble Lords are free to bring back the follow in exactly the same way as every other country. amendment, or a variation of it, at the next stage. I Having made those points, I beg leave to withdraw the hope that I will be able to update noble Lords on how amendment. the Government have progressed arguments. Clearly, the debate we have had today will be helpful. Amendment 40CB withdrawn. I cannot say the same in connection with Amendment 40CB. That amendment would have significant wider Amendment 40CC not moved. implications and for the reasons I have given I am not persuaded of the case for that particular change. However, Clause 65: Preparation or training abroad for given what I have said, I hope that the noble and terrorism learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, in proposing the amendment at the beginning of this debate, will feel Debate on whether Clause 65 should stand part of the free to withdraw the amendments tabled in her name Bill. and that I will have the opportunity when we return to this subject of updating noble Lords accordingly. 6.30 pm Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, first, I thank everyone Lord Rosser: My Lords, Section 5 of the Terrorism who has spoken in this short debate. It has been Act 2006 makes it an offence to engage in any conduct extremely helpful. Perhaps I might ask the Minister in preparation for giving effect to an intention to whether he thinks my contribution on warning notices commit or assist another to commit one or more acts was as helpful as that of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser— of terrorism. It also makes it an offence under Section 6 because it was actually my amendment. Not to worry, to provide or receive training for terrorism. The Act but I could not resist saying that. also provides for extraterritorial jurisdiction so that an Secondly, on the warning notice, I am well aware offence may be tried in this country in respect of acts that it would be extremely unlikely that the police committed abroad. However, this is limited or non-existent would have the power to issue a criminal notice of that in respect of the Section 5 and Section 6 offences to sort—although in other circumstances, of course, they which I have referred. issue cautions, which have a very significant effect Clause 65 would provide for extraterritorial jurisdiction without ever going through a court. However, if an for the Section 5 offence and extend the existing offender does not accept a police notice and continues extraterritorial jurisdiction for the Section 6 offence. to groom, I could see the advantages of a very speedy Such extraterritorial jurisdiction is considered appropriate application to the magistrates’ court. That seems to for Section 5 and Section 6 offences because the places me to be the answer to that particular problem. The where training or preparation for terrorism are taking magistrates could then issue the appropriate order, place are increasingly likely to be located abroad and which the offender would have to comply with. That will enable prosecutions in this country of people might be the right way round—I did not go in to preparing or training more generally for terrorism all that. who have, in the current circumstances, travelled from As for the age of 18, having spent many years on the UK to fight in Syria, where various groups are the Hague Convention, I am well aware that on involved in the conflict. international abductions the age of 16 applies right We do not oppose this clause being in the Bill but across the world. Nearly 200 countries have signed up have some points to raise about what the impact of the to that, including of course ourselves. However, this is provision is expected to be—hence this debate on abduction of a rather different sort, within the United whether the clause should stand part of the Bill. I Kingdom. It is just as dangerous and just as worrying appreciate that the Minister may not be in a position as international abduction. We only have to look at to be too specific in his response, but can he give some the press reports of the cases in Rotherham and Rochdale, examples of the kind of prosecutions which it will be without going into Luton or Oxford or other places possible to pursue under Clause 65 which it has not where there was grooming of girls, to know that a been possible until now to pursue under the existing considerable number of those girls were not in care. legislation, and which would have been pursued had 559 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 560

[LORD ROSSER] is not new, nor is it specific to Syria. As my noble Clause 65 been effective? If prosecutions have already friend Lady Warsi, who is sitting next to me preparing taken place for the offence of preparing for terrorist to respond to the debate following this Committee activities, what does Clause 65 add in reality to the stage, will be aware, the recent events in Iraq further legislative armoury? Has there been consultation with demonstrate the fluidity of movement of foreign fighters the Director of Public Prosecutions on the need for and we are concerned that groups such as the al-Nusra Clause 65? If a loophole in the current legislation has Front and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant—or been identified which constitutes a potential threat to ISIL, as it is known—are now able to operate in the our security, does the Director of Public Prosecutions large areas of ungoverned space that have been created believe that the provisions of Clause 65 constitute the by the conflict. ISIL’s advances in Iraq in particular best way of addressing that loophole? demonstrate the serious threat that that group poses As I understand it, prosecutions under Clause 65 to both countries, so it is right that we respond to this would need to be in open court and any evidence threat. brought would have to be evidence acceptable in open In support of wider government efforts to ensure court and disclosable in open court. If I am right in that the full range of operational responses under the saying that, presumably intercept evidence and the Contest strategy are being applied to counter this evidence of informers, for example, will not be usable. threat, Clause 65 amends Section 17 of the Terrorism In respect of people coming back from Syria, how is it Act 2006. This extends fully the jurisdiction of the UK envisaged that it will in practical terms be possible courts over the offence of preparation of terrorist acts to gather evidence for a prosecution which relates to under Section 5 and the offence of training for terrorism what the individual has done in Syria that can be under Section 6 of that Act so that preparation and pursued in open court? If the evidence to pursue a training that take place abroad can be prosecuted. prosecution under Clause 65 cannot be used in open This measure will enable prosecution, on their return court, will a terrorism prevention and investigation to the UK, of individuals who have travelled overseas measures order be sought, which would enable, for to prepare or train for terrorism as though their actions example, intercept evidence and the evidence of informers had taken place in this country. Any prosecution under to be used, albeit it would be to obtain the appropriate this measure will require the express consent of the order rather than to seek a conviction? Or are the Attorney-General, in addition to satisfying the Crown Government claiming that Clause 65 will remove the Prosecution Service that there is sufficient evidence need for TPIMs in a situation where no one on a and that prosecution is in the public interest. Our TPIM has ever been prosecuted and when, in his last priority is to dissuade people from travelling to participate report, the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation in conflicts abroad in the first place, but it is vital that said that TPIMs continued to be needed? our legislation is as robust as it can be against those I hope that the Minister will be able to address who may seek to harm the UK in particular, and these points in his reply. Bearing in mind that Clause 65 leaves no doubt in the minds of individuals engaging relates to an extension of extraterritorial jurisdiction in preparatory acts of terrorism, or training for terrorism to enable offences to be tried in this country in respect overseas, of the action we are prepared to take to of acts committed abroad under Sections 5 and 6 of protect the public. the Terrorism Act 2006, it is not clear what the actual The noble Lord asked whether it would enable us to impact of Clause 65 will be as much of the evidence prosecute cases which were not prosecutable at present. that becomes available is, if I have understood the Recent cases show that these offences can be operationally situation correctly, unlikely to be able to be presented useful. Mashudur Choudhury was recently convicted in open court and could be used only in seeking a under Section 5 of preparing for terrorism in the UK. TPIM order. If, for example, he had undertaken these preparations outside the UK, he could not have been prosecuted. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I am grateful This measure seeks to address this anomaly. to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, for affording the How will this measure have an impact on foreign Committee an opportunity to debate this issue. I am fighters? We assess that by extending UK territorial sure that the noble Lord and, for that matter, the jurisdiction for this offence and bringing evidence of Committee as a whole will be in no doubt about the activities overseas within its scope, we will potentially significant threat posed by foreign fighters, particularly strengthen the evidential case that can be made and in relation to Syria, and the importance the Government enhance the prospects of a successful prosecution in place on protecting the public from those who may some cases. In cases where there is only evidence of seek to harm the UK or UK interests. activity abroad, it will enable a prosecution to be The nature of the threat from terrorism has evolved brought where it is not currently possible. since the passing of the Terrorism Act 2006. Many of The noble Lord asked whether we had consulted the threats we face today have significant overseas the Director of Public Prosecutions. We have worked connections and the places where UK-linked individuals, closely with law enforcement partners, including the and those seeking to harm UK interests, may now be Crown Prosecution Service, in developing this measure. training, or otherwise preparing for terrorism, are They fully support it and have suggested that this will increasingly likely to be located abroad. Syria, in particular, be operationally useful. As for the question about has become the number one destination for jihadists in gathering evidence and how law enforcement agencies the world today, posing a threat to the region and will obtain the evidence required for a prosecution, beyond. However, the issue of individuals from the particularly as it involves evidence gathering abroad, UK seeking to engage in combat and conflicts abroad law enforcement agencies are accustomed to working 561 Serious Crime Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Serious Crime Bill [HL] 562 with the relevant authorities in other countries for the “(d) made a restitution order; purpose of gathering evidence for prosecutions. We fully (e) ordered the accused under section 253F(2) of the expect that this established arrangement will continue Procedure Act to pay a victim surcharge.” to be employed for future prosecutions. 25B (1) Section 100 of that Act (effect of postponement) is We recognise that any evidence gathering which amended as follows. involves other countries is inherently more challenging (2) In subsection (3)— than if it were confined to the UK, but this does not (a) at the end of paragraph (b) omit “or”; mean that prosecution is impossible. That is the purpose (b) after paragraph (c) insert— of introducing these measures in Clause 65. These “(d) make a restitution order, or changes will ensure that UK linked individuals and (e) order the accused under section 253F(2) of the those who seek to harm UK interests and travel overseas Procedure Act to pay a victim surcharge.” to prepare or train for terrorism can be prosecuted as (3) In subsection (4)— if their actions had taken place in the UK and that they are not beyond the reach of the law. It is essential (a) at the end of paragraph (b) omit “or”; that our law enforcement partners are equipped with (b) after paragraph (c) insert— the right powers to counter the threat posed by foreign “(d) making a restitution order, or fighters who travel overseas to undertake terrorist (e) ordering the accused under section 253F(2) of the activities and may go on to carry out terrorist attacks. Procedure Act to pay a victim surcharge.” I hope that with those explanations the noble Lord 25C (1) Section 104 of that Act (no order made: reconsideration will be prepared to accept that Clause 65 should form of case) is amended as follows. part of the Bill. (2) In subsection (7), after paragraph (d) insert— “(e) any restitution order which has been made against the Clause 65 agreed. accused in respect of the offence (or any of the offences) concerned; Clause 66 agreed. “(f) any order under section 253F(2) of the Procedure Act requiring the accused to pay a victim surcharge in respect Clause 67: Minor and consequential amendments of the offence (or any of the offences) concerned.” (3) After subsection (8) insert— Amendment 40D “(8A) If a restitution order or an order under section 253F(2) Moved by Baroness Williams of Trafford of the Procedure Act has been made against the accused in respect of the offence or offences concerned, section 97A(2) and 40D: Clause 67, page 49, line 30, leave out “or revoke” and (4) does not apply.” insert “, revoke or otherwise modify” 25D (1) Section 105 of that Act (no order made: reconsideration of benefit) is amended as follows. Baroness Williams of Trafford: My Lords, Amendment (2) In subsection (10), after paragraph (d) insert— 40D to Clause 67 responds to a recommendation by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee “(e) any restitution order which has been made against the accused in respect of the offence (or any of the offences) in its report on the Bill. The committee has pointed concerned; out that any regulations made under Clause 67(2) “(f) any order under section 253F(2) of the Procedure Act amending, repealing or revoking any provision of requiring the accused to pay a victim surcharge in respect primary legislation would be subject to the affirmative of the offence (or any of the offences) concerned.” procedure, but that the negative procedure would apply (3) After subsection (11) insert— to any regulations otherwise modifying primary legislation. “(11A) If a restitution order or an order under section 253F(2) The Government accept the committee’s argument of the Procedure Act has been made against the accused in that a non-textual modification of primary legislation respect of the offence or offences concerned, section 97A(2) and is capable of making changes which are no less significant (4) does not apply.” than textual amendments and that, accordingly, the 25E (1) Section 106 of that Act (order made: reconsideration affirmative procedure should also apply in such cases. of benefit) is amended as follows. Amendment 40D therefore amends Clause 67(5) to (2) In subsection (8), after paragraph (c) insert— this end. I am grateful to the Delegated Powers and “(d) any restitution order which has been made against the Regulatory Reform Committee for highlighting this accused in respect of the offence (or any of the offences) issue. Amendments 42A and 44 make a technical concerned; adjustment to the commencement power in Clause 70. “(e) any order under section 253F(2) of the Procedure Act I beg to move. requiring the accused to pay a victim surcharge in respect of the offence (or any of the offences) concerned.” Amendment 40D agreed. (3) In subsection (9)— Clause 67, as amended, agreed. (a) for “the court must not” substitute “the court— (a) must not”; Schedule 4: Minor and consequential amendments (b) at the end insert— “(b) must not have regard to an order falling within Amendment 41 subsection (8)(d) or (e) if a court has made a direction under section 97A(2) or (4).” Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach 25F In section 118 of that Act (application of provisions 41: Schedule 4, page 74, line 41, at end insert— about fine enforcement), in subsection (2) omit paragraph (k). “25A In section 99 of that Act (postponement), after paragraph (c) 25G In section 131 of that Act (sums received by clerk of of subsection (11) insert— court)— 563 Serious Crime Bill [HL][LORDS] Cyprus 564

(a) in subsection (6), after “97(6)” insert “or 97A(4)”; Lord Northbrook (Con): My Lords, I am very pleased (b) after that subsection insert— to debate the impact of resolving the Cyprus issue on “(6A) If a direction was made under section 97A(2) or (4) the Floor of the House, which to me shows its increasing for an amount payable under a restitution order or a importance as a key issue in the eastern Mediterranean. victim surcharge under section 253F(2) of the Procedure Some speakers may well feel that I am putting the cart Act to be paid out of sums recovered under the before the horse by discussing the impact of a settlement confiscation order, the clerk of court must next apply the before one has been achieved. When I tabled this sums in payment of that amount.” QSD, prospects looked rather brighter than they do at 25H In section 153 of that Act (satisfaction of confiscation orders), in subsection (1) omit paragraph (b).” present, but I am an eternal optimist. By focusing on the impact from an international as well as a Cypriot Amendment 41 agreed. viewpoint, I hope to add an extra dimension to the argument, and encourage the two sides to look at Schedule 4, as amended, agreed. these broader issues, rather than narrow tribal rivalries. the island has been divided for 40 years. In those Clause 68 agreed. 40 years talks on reunification have been an enduring feature of political life, without any success. The Annan Clause 69: Extent plan of 2004 was the last and most comprehensive proposal for a settlement. It was overwhelmingly accepted Amendment 42 by the Turkish Cypriots and comprehensively rejected by the Greek Cypriots. The reasons for rejection have Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach been carefully analysed in the aftermath. Essentially, 42: Clause 69, page 51, line 14, leave out “15 and 16” and the Greek Cypriot political elite and people saw no insert “(Restitution order and victim surcharge) to (Conditions benefit to them in the proposals, so they voted against. for exercise of search and seizure powers)” We are now in the middle of a renewed negotiation. Amendment 42 agreed. Many see this as the best hope for reunification. Where the negotiations seem to be different this time Clause 69, as amended, agreed. from the Annan plan, is that they are by Cypriots, for Cypriots—although as I will discuss later, they seem Clause 70: Commencement to have the same fault of failing to involve the wider Cypriot public. It is clear that both sides must see the benefit to them of any proposal for reunification—or, Amendments 42A to 44 as the Turkish Cypriot chief negotiator Dr Kudret Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach Ozersay puts it, they at least see the real harm to their 42A: Clause 70, page 51, line 26, at end insert “made by interests that rejection would bring. statutory instrument” So what are these benefits? First, I would suggest, 43: Clause 70, page 51, line 29, leave out “15 and 16” and they are for the people of Cyprus themselves to be able insert “(Restitution order and victim surcharge) to (Conditions to be one country again and extend their influence in for exercise of search and seizure powers)” the Mediterranean and on the world stage. Next, they 44: Clause 70, page 52, leave out line 17 are economic. Meltdown in the Greek Cypriot banking sector would surely have been less severe if Turkish Amendments 42A to 44 agreed. financial know-how had been available to regulate it. UK companies could expand their links with the Clause 70, as amended, agreed. whole island. Cyprus, as a member of the Commonwealth, could look to the rich Commonwealth countries for Clause 71 agreed. investment. Elsewhere, the reunified island would be House resumed. able to expand its trading links with the EU and Turkey. Bill reported with amendments. Regional stability would be improved. Turkey is a member of NATO but not the EU. Greek Cyprus is Cyprus not a member of NATO. A reunified island would see Question for Short Debate Cyprus join NATO, and thus counteract the influence of Russia, which has not only bailed out the Greek 6.45 pm Cypriot banks but is now able to use the airbase near Paphos and Limassol for its naval vessels. It is also Asked by Lord Northbrook signing agreements with Israel. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment This could partly explain the visit to Cyprus this they have made of the impact of a successful conclusion year by the Vice-President of the USA, Joe Biden—the to current negotiations on the future of Cyprus on first such visit for 50 years. The USA is concerned the people of Cyprus and on regional stability. about increasing Russian influence in the eastern Mediterranean. Another reason for his visit was surely Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, this now the interest in an alternative source of energy supply being last business, it may stretch to 90 minutes rather for the West. The Aphrodite field off the south-east of than 60. The timings for the opening and closing Cyprus is a useful gas find, but unless it is combined speakers will remain the same, but those in between with the neighbouring Leviathan and Tamar Israeli may luxuriate in up to eight minutes, if they wish. fields it will not produce sufficient gas to justify an 565 Cyprus[15 JULY 2014] Cyprus 566

LNG plant on the island. If such an arrangement can programme. In that year he made a presentation of his be agreed, the gas could be piped to Turkey, thus Northern Ireland work to the Greek-Turkish forum in bypassing Russian sources of supply and giving Cyprus Istanbul and explained how it was used to build a much cheaper energy on the way. consensus around the Belfast agreement. The forum The whole exercise would be possible only with a subsequently decided that it would like to undertake a reunified island, and the benefits will not be felt for similar programme of research in Cyprus. Although several years. Can I ask the Minister whether the UK the Greek Cypriot negotiators wanted to go ahead Government support the equal distribution of the with a poll, the Turkish Cypriot Government did not. natural resources found around the island between the In the end, no polls were undertaken and without the two communities? Do they support the constructive benefits of an effective programme of public diplomacy proposal previously made by the Turkish Cypriot side both the negotiations and the subsequent referendum in 2011-12 which includes the establishment of an ad failed. hoc committee to deal with issues regarding natural Lordos analyses how a public diplomacy approach resources? would work in practice. First, the UN would step right Another natural resource that the whole of Cyprus back and be responsible for providing facilitation rather could benefit from after a successful peace process than drafting services, while groups of Cypriots would would be water. An ambitious plan is in train to link be responsible for drafting the peace plan. Secondly, Turkey with the TRNC, which would help eliminate the process would be overseen, supervised and guided chronic water shortages. This water supply could then by leaders of the two communities—but without being be extended to the south, and thus the whole of limited, as at present, to the leaders of the two Cyprus would benefit. The supply of water to the communities. Thirdly, groups of experts would play a south could be the quid pro quo for the south agreeing role, including civic society.However, an equally important to allow gas to be transported through to the north part would be played by groups of society representatives and thus on to Turkey. —women, trade unions, commerce boards and refugees, for instance—who would add a human face and human The next area to benefit would be tourism. The perspective to the process. stark reality of the current situation was demonstrated Fourthly, the negotiating teams would have at their to me during my visit to the TRNC last July. Seeing disposal reliable public opinion information on a regular Varosha, which was a prime tourist resort before partition, basis. This would provide feedback on the public completely shut off was extraordinary and of benefit acceptability of the various alternative solutions that to no one. The inconvenience of having to fly to the negotiators would be considering. Fifthly, external Turkey first if you want to visit the north must put off actors such as Greece and Turkey would not have a lot of visitors. direct access to the drafting process, while other non- In the remaining part of my comments, I wish to invasive and respectful ways should be found for their address the latest attempt to get a solution. In February constructive input to be considered. 2014, the leaders of the Greek and Turkish Cypriot Lordos also suggests that the Cyprus problem can communities issued a joint declaration. On the surface be divided into segments or sub-problems, and that, if this looked promising, with the Greek Cypriot President each of these sub-problems can be solved to the Anastasiades being a “yes”voter in the 2004 referendum. satisfaction of both communities, the final settlement Clause 1 of the declaration states that the current plan, derived by putting together the solutions to situation is unacceptable and its prolongation will the sub-problems, will also be satisfactory to both have negative consequences for the Greek Cypriots communities. The areas he believes should be six: and Turkish Cypriots. Clause 2 states that, security, property, residence rights, settlers, power sharing “the leaders will aim to reach a settlement as soon as possible and and legal status. hold … simultaneous referenda thereafter”. In conclusion, I commend the Foreign and However, progress since then has been very slow as the Commonwealth Office for being very active, especially leaders have met only five times since February, and I in inviting the Turkish Cypriot leader and his negotiator cannot see what real progress has been achieved. What to London—the first time that Turkish Cypriots have do the UK Government intend to do to encourage the been invited to London. None of this, sadly, means Greek Cypriot side to accept the previously reached that negotiations will be easy or successful to achieve convergences so that the negotiations can move forward the hoped-for impact that I outlined earlier, and the at a more reasonable pace? What is being done to Lordos proposals have great appeal to me if current speed up the process of appointing a new UN special talks fail. adviser to the Secretary-General on Cyprus, which may also bring a new sense of urgency to the talks? 6.56 pm One of the key factors over the years in preventing Lord Harrison (Lab): My Lords, I congratulate the a settlement has been the failure of the traditional noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, not only on securing top-down approach of the talks. According to a paper this important debate but on so expertly introducing from Alexandros Lordos, research director for Cyprus it. I look forward to other expert speakers, most 2015, one of the key arguments for the failure is that notably the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, with all his the Cypriot public are not involved in the peace process. expertise. I, too, am encouraged—in fact I have written, Lordos states that there had been an opportunity to “Hope springs eternal”—by the fact that Anastasiades add public opinion analysis to the Annan negotiating and Dr Eroglu are now in conversation. I look forward process. Specifically, Professor Colin Irwin from Ireland to hearing from the Minister on any reports she has was asked in 1998 if he could assist with such a had. 567 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus 568

[LORD HARRISON] the European Union and the Commission’s work in As we near the 10th anniversary of the Annan plan trying to help and prepare the Turkish Republic of vote, I declare—because I am a passionate pro- Northern Cyprus for what we hope will be true accession European—my sorrow that the European Union made to the European Union in due course? If she does not such a major blunder in allowing in the island of have the details to hand, I would be very happy to be Cyprus without ensuring that both north and south written to. were reconciled. I, too, remember visiting in 1968 Given the economic crisis, can the Minister give us Varosha, when it was then a thriving tourist town, and some analysis of the state of Cypriot banks? As she the friendship I received then—as I received the friendship will know, they will shortly come under the stress test of British troops over on the other side of the island at of the European Central Bank and the acid quality Troodos. I have been three times to Northern Cyprus, test done by the ECB and the European Banking funded by the TRNC, and, as the chair of the EU Authority. Can she hazard a guess as to whether any Committee’s Economic and Financial Affairs Sub- of the banks that sustained such difficulty will continue Committee of your Lordships’ House, I recently went to be a worry, as they were when the crisis was at its to the Greek side under the Cypriot presidency. I must height? recall that this was a huge missed opportunity. The We have heard mention of oil and gas. Perhaps the presidency of the European Union is a great honour Minister will elaborate on that, but my intelligence is given to member states, and there should have been that those reserves are perhaps less than was thought more work and collusion with both sides of the island. to be the case. Can she clarify that? A further missed opportunity was the European elections, Regarding the United Kingdom, what are we going and I regret that that was the case. to do with the British bases? Will they form part The United Kingdom holds a special role with of any settlement? Secondly, given the very strong respect to the Cyprus situation, about which I should communities in north London, what can be done in like to hear more from the Minister. I represented the our own country to encourage better understanding of House in Athens recently at a COSAC meeting. Our the problems on both sides? Turkish colleagues were there and invited to comment, I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, along with the 28 other member states. Why is provision who will speak shortly. Her ideas, which I hope will be not made for our Turkish Cypriot community from pursued by the Government, concern building up civil the north of the island? society from the bottom upwards. Can the Minister inform us of the latest situation The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, also pointed to concerning universities? There has been a recent example the concern about water and the environment. These of a British university in, I think, east London that are important issues that should be shared by both has failed to work with a university in Nicosia. However, communities. The United Kingdom should get stuck those of us who have been to the Turkish Republic of in to ensure that we promote opportunities to find a Northern Cyprus have not only celebrated the high fair settlement for all concerned on the island of Cyprus. level of expertise that the six universities have there, but recognised them to be part of its export industry, as they have so many students from far and wide. 7.05 pm What opportunities can we develop in the United Lord Sharkey (LD): My Lords, it is a pleasure to Kingdom to advance this process? Would the Minister follow the noble Lord, Lord Harrison. Like him, I also respond to the disgraceful state of affairs of the congratulate my noble friend Lord Northbrook on exclusion of Turkish Northern Cyprus, by the Council securing the debate and on his wide-ranging opening of Europe, from the Bologna process and the Erasmus speech. It was so wide-ranging that I will not take programme, each of which encourage the swapping of advantage of the extra time available. I declare an students to benefit Europe as a whole? It is rank interest as chair of the All-Party Group for the Turkish discrimination; why is it still the case? Republic of Northern Cyprus. The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, mentioned the As both previous speakers have said, negotiations difficulty of direct flights. Tourism is an important for reunification have been going on for more than industry in both the south and the north. Is there no 40 years. For many of those years nothing much resolution, which I know the former Foreign Secretary seemed to happen. When it did happen, as with the Jack Straw made every effort to try to solve, to the Annan plan, it did not work. The latest round of absurdity of having to send people to Turkey before negotiations is probably the best chance—perhaps the they go on to the delights of Northern Cyprus and last chance—of any kind of success. The hydrocarbon take the opportunities that are there? Tourism is a key discoveries, the financial crash of 2007-08 and the industry; we should help to improve it. dramatic increase in unrest in the eastern Mediterranean Can I also ask the Minister what is being done to are all new factors pointing towards the desirability of provide better access to the single market? On my a settlement. However, as usual, there are conflicting most recent visit to the TRNC, in talks with the Board views about the progress being made in the negotiations. of Trade and the business community, it was made In particular, many commentators point out the plain to us that access to the single market was made need for a UN special representative to replace Alexander that much more difficult because everything had to be Downer. I understand that the former UN Under- funnelled through Turkey, adding to transportation Secretary-General Lynn Pascoe is the person favoured costs and so on. Could the Minister also detail the by Ban Ki-moon. Mr Pascoe was previously US financial help that the United Kingdom gives—and ambassador to Malaysia and to Indonesia; he was the gave at the time of the EU crisis? Would she also detail US special negotiator for Nagorno-Karabakh and 569 Cyprus[15 JULY 2014] Cyprus 570 served five years in the UN Department of Political 7.11 pm Affairs, where he was actively involved in the Cyprus Lord Maginnis of Drumglass (Ind UU): My Lords, problem. Yet I understand that his appointment is I am grateful, of course, to the noble Lord, Lord meeting resistance from the Greek Cypriots. Can the Northbrook, and to others who have spoken constructively Minister bring us up to date on this issue when she about the problems facing Cyprus. I am also reminded replies? that when I spoke in a previous debate on Iran when It seems the case that heavyweight input is needed the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, was responding—I pretty quickly.The Turkish Cypriot negotiator, Dr Kudret think it was in February—she flattered me with the Özersay, submitted a five-step roadmap for future words: negotiations to the leaders meeting of 7 July. This “I am grateful to all noble Lords who have contributed with meeting was supposed to make progress on confidence- such authority to today’s debate, especially … the robust alternative building measures, but it did not. At a negotiators critique presented by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis”. —[Official meeting two days later, it was agreed to try again at a Report, 27/2/14; col. 1070.] meeting taking place tomorrow and again at the next With that expectation, if I may, I shall present a leaders’ meeting, which takes place this coming Friday. somewhat different objective view of the Cyprus situation. It is possible to be pessimistic about all this, but I think In doing so, I will be critical of the role that for more it is better read as grounds for cautious—perhaps very than 50 years the United Kingdom has played in cautious—optimism. For example, it seems clear that terms of assisting in a solution. It is important to both sides understand the need for urgent progress. It know what really happened in Cyprus. It is time to would help if Mr Pascoe, or some other UN nominee, stop rewriting history. There is an obvious gap, not could take a role in all of this as soon as possible. just in this Government’s knowledge but in the previous Government’s knowledge. How many know that EOKA-B The need for urgent settlement arises from several sought to expunge every Turkish Cypriot from the factors. At the moment there is a window of political island between Christmas 1963 and 1974? I hope that stability on the island, which will last only until the the Minister will be able to tell us explicitly the significance end of the next round of major elections, which are of the Akritas and Ifestos plans—the blueprint for not very far away. There is also the growing complexity ethnic cleansing even before we used that term. surrounding hydrocarbon exploitation. Amos Hochstein, of the US State Department, said last week that these Let me outline when the invasion of Cyprus began. newly discovered energy resources have changed the It was not 20 July when the Turkish military, in order rules of the game in the region. That is undoubtedly to protect Turkish Cypriots, intervened in the island. the case. For example, the Chinese National Offshore The noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, with some force, Oil Corporation is now in talks to buy 30% to 40% of picked 15 July, since it was on that date exactly the Aphrodite gas field in Cyprus’s block 12. 40 years ago when the Cyprus National Guard and EOKA-B, led by the Greek junta, launched a coup A further factor driving the need for an urgent and overthrew the democratically elected President, solution is, of course, the increasingly chaotic, unstable Archbishop Makarios, with the goal of Enosis— and violent situation in the eastern Mediterranean as annexing Cyprus into Greece. Although the Turkish a whole. The benefits of a successful reunion have Cypriots are blamed for the events of 1974, I remind already been rehearsed to some extent by previous the House that Rauf Denktas, my late dear friend the speakers and outside the Chamber. Reunification Turkish Cypriot leader, said: brings the prospect of very significant economic “Our duty in this situation, which we believe is a matter growth. The UN estimates an additional three percentage between Greek Cypriots, is to protect our international security, points to GDP as a result of reunification. There are to take defensive measures and not to interfere in any way in then the proceeds of the offshore hydrocarbons, which inter-Greek Cypriot events”. are likely to be significant if reunification takes Four days later on 19 July, while addressing the UN place, and are quite likely to be zero if it does not. Security Council, Archbishop Makarios accused Then there is inward investment, or the prospect of Greece of having invaded Cyprus: inward investment. The north of the island has been “The coup of the Greek junta is an invasion, and from its deprived of capital for 40 years, and it is still cut off consequences the whole people of Cyprus suffers, both Greeks from the international banking system. Development and Turks”. of the north and reconnection of the north to the Nothing has changed over the years regarding that world outside will bring increased prosperity to all common suffering. Is it not time for our Government parts of the island. to nail the big fat Greek Cypriot lie once and for all Finally, there is the question of stability, which is a on this 40th anniversary of the Greek invasion and necessary precondition for investment—naturally—but coup to overthrow President Makarios? I could go is also a vital requirement in such an unstable region. through many instances of the difficulties that all the Stability is in the direct interest not only of the Cypriot people of Cyprus suffered during that period. peoples but of NATO, the region and the West. I We hear about all the people who were killed when know that Her Majesty’s Government have been very Turkey, as a guarantor power did what we, as a guarantor active in support of negotiations for reunification, and power, should have done—intervened to try to stop I congratulate the FCO on that. The UK has a moral wholesale slaughter. We hear about that, but have and a legal obligation to help, and I am very glad that many of us heard that, in the five days between 15 July it is helping. However, our help will be needed for when the Greeks invaded and when the Turkish military many years after reunification and I shall be very intervened, more than 3,000 Greek Cypriot supporters glad to hear the noble Baroness commit to that when of Makarios and the communist party AKEL were she speaks. killed in an orgy of Greek-on-Greek bloodletting? 571 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus 572

[LORD MAGINNIS OF DRUMGLASS] was a positive gain; for the Greek side, there was no At the same time Sampson gave the notorious Akritas loss. There was nothing to be lost from rejecting the plan full rein to exterminate Turkish Cypriots “once plan. I remember comparing it at the time to an Irish and for all”. referendum: it is always safe to vote no, because you Having posed that question, I want to move to our might get something more. Incidentally, I mean an behaviour in Cyprus in terms of our 371 soldiers who Irish EU referendum—and a Republic of Ireland EU died during the emergency, and the 58 policemen—British, referendum, just to qualify that. I see the noble Lord, Turkish Cypriot and Greek Cypriot—who all died in Lord Kilclooney, looking at me quizzically there. the service of the Crown. Why is it that 50 years on, in The EU then became damaged goods. I am afraid 2009, when a few of us sought to erect a memorial to that, when you look at the possibility of a settlement our troops, we did not have any support from government? in Cyprus, the EU is not seen as an honest broker by In those days we did not bring our bodies home, so we the Turkish side of the island, probably with extremely sought to erect a monument in Wayne’s Keep, where good reason. The United States, until recently, has most of our soldiers are buried. That was refused by been a very disinterested player on the scene. I welcome the Greek Cypriots. I was part of a small group of half the visit of the US Vice-President, because unless the a dozen who managed to raise more than £200,000 US gets itself involved, there will not be a settlement. and we erected a monument to those 371 soldiers. This The reality of a settlement is an objective called money, year we are extending that monument to include the which we often overlook. Unless there is a substantial 58 policemen. input of aid from the EU and the US to sort out the Despite all the sweet words that we may talk in this problems, particularly of property compensation and House and in the other place about regard for our the land issues, there will not be a settlement. The troops, we do not have the guts to stand up to the refugees, I believe, can be dealt with by saying, “This is Greek Cypriots and say, “We will honour our dead. the Turkish side of the island, and whoever lives there We have respect for our dead”. How can we, with so is who they choose”, but there is a need to sort out the little self-respect, ever hope to play a positive role in other issues, particularly the European Court of Human bringing some sort of settlement? I put my cards on Rights judgments—many of them are, frankly, completely the table. I do not think that it is reintegration; I think perverse but, none the less, they stand there and they it is federation. How can we play our role in that when have to be unravelled as part of this settlement. we, over the period of 50 years, have failed our own My belief is that we need to ramp up the pressure on people? How can we support the Turkish Cypriot Cyprus. One thing the Cypriot Government have known minority? How can we conciliate between it and the is that the TRNC goes unrecognised. There is no reason Greek Cypriot majority? I do not believe we have why it should not be recognised. If there is going to be given ourselves the status to do so, and I hope that the no real attempt to build a settlement, then these people noble Baroness will be able to reassure me this evening. in this half of the island have a right to international recognition and what goes with it. There is no reason 7.20 pm at all why, if intransigence follows intransigence, we Lord Balfe (Con): My Lords, I add my thanks to the should not say that, in the interests of a level playing noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, for securing this very field, we will recognise the rights of both sides. There is valuable debate. I make my own declaration of interest, no reason why we should not say: if the Turkish Cypriots as a member of the All-Party Group for the TRNC are part of the EU, as Greek Cyprus would say, where and as a fairly regular visitor to the TRNC over the are the Turkish representatives in the European Parliament? past 30 years. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, Where are the nominees from the Turkish community for his speech, which makes mine seem not quite as for posts within the EU? Where is the consultation controversial as I thought it might be, having heard with the Turkish community on engagement with the the earlier contributions. EU? We have more to do with the Welsh Parliament The first contact I had with the TRNC was with thantheGreekCypriotAdministrationdoinconsulting Rauf Denktas, who has already been mentioned— the Turks, who, they say,are part of the EU. someone who, it behoves us to remember, began his We need to look at something much more positive life in the service of the British Crown and who, for all from the United Kingdom than a selection of warm his life, looked to the British Crown to behave a little words which can easily be forgotten. We have been better than I think it ever really did. The fact of the putting warm words forward for year after year for 40 matter is that the Annan plan, which has often been years. I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, mentioned, was rejected to an extent because of the said: when the Turkish troops went to Cyprus in 1974, European Union. Once the European Union had given they went to rescue the Turkish community. They were way to what was effectively the blackmail of the Greek not an invading force; they were a protecting force. Government, who said they would sink enlargement if Any solution to the problem has to recognise the fact Cyprus was not allowed in, anything that the EU said that the Turkish community feels deeply insecure. If about only allowing in a united island became null. At the Greek part of the island is happy to say that they that point, the leaders of the Greek community knew have only benevolent intentions, then I put it to them that it was very safe to vote no, and of course they that it is quite reasonable to negotiate a Turkish base immediately went out to encourage the vote against in north Cyprus with a time-limited guarantee—say, the Annan plan. of 20 years. I was in Cyprus at the time of the referendum and it I recall a Turkish general saying to me that they was very easy, and I am afraid rather sad, to see what could do without the Turkish base there because they was going on. For the Turkish side of the island, there would be able to get troops across from Turkey into 573 Cyprus[15 JULY 2014] Cyprus 574 northern Cyprus while the EU Council of Foreign referendum. If there is to be a referendum—I hope Ministers was still arguing about which city to meet in. there will be—can we ensure that this time the communities Admittedly, that was a rather cynical view, but one has and civil society are much more engaged, rather than to realise that Cyprus is much closer to Turkey than to shut out as when the two leaders were shut in a room Greece. One also has to realise that it has a long and came to an agreement without consulting civil Turkish tradition. It is not a Greek island; anyone who society? has been round it, who has seen the mosques and the I was in Cyprus when the European elections took Turkish settlement, will realise that those are as much place in May and I was extremely concerned that a legitimate part of a Turkish island as of a Greek thousands of Turkish Cypriots who had registered to island. vote and had crossed to the south were prevented from I hope that we move forward. I recall for the Minister’s exercising their right to vote. For the first time, steps edification the words that she used in the previous were taken to allow Turkish Cypriots living in the debate: north of the island to cross the Green Line and vote at “it is difficult to see how we could realise the full potential of special election centres. However, just 3% of Turkish energy from the eastern Mediterranean without a Cyprus Cypriots voted. Many felt as a result that Turkish settlement”.—[Official Report, 17/6/14; col. GC 76.] Cypriot participation in the EU elections was at best In closing, I would say that the need for energy has tokenism, as it transpired that there was little intention now come right up the agenda. I hope that we will be to share the electoral list in advance with Turkish able to use our diplomatic weight, but also use a bit of Cypriot candidates who went across and stood for the oomph and power, to get a settlement moving this European Parliament. The TRNC leadership took time. Thank you. the position that Turkish Cypriots should boycott the elections—which I and many others did not feel was 7.28 pm helpful at the time—but in the end they were able to say that they had been proved right, which hardly Baroness Hussein-Ece (LD): My Lords, I congratulate helps to build confidence. my noble friend Lord Northbrook on securing this Confidence-building, mainly by the UK and the debate and on his very thoughtful and thorough EU, has long been neglected. But I was encouraged, as introduction. In fact, he said some of the things I might others have been, that the Foreign and Commonwealth have wanted to say. Office recently invited the Turkish Cypriot and Greek As has been said, today is the 15 July, the 40th Cypriot chief negotiators to meet Ministers here. But anniversary of the coup instigated by the Greek junta, more needs to be done. The north is in urgent need of when Nicos Sampson deposed the elected President, investment to improve its infrastructure. It really is a Archbishop Makarios. This date is etched on the memory poor relation, stranded outside the EU. We need to of Cypriots and Cypriot history. All of us who are reassure people there that the United Kingdom, as a connected to Cyprus and are old enough remember guarantor country, has their interests at heart. with horror the events of that period. We feel the One area that I believe has been much neglected, repercussions to this day, as the UN is currently engaged which the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, mentioned—I in yet another attempt at a peace deal in the long thank him for his very kind and generous words—is history of negotiations. education. The north has an extremely buoyant, growing Of course, as the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, reminded and successful university sector, with nine excellent us quite forcefully, the problems did not start in 1974. universities, such as the Near East University, which Although many Cypriots want a peace deal and to be has 22,000 students; almost 25% of those are international able to live their lives with dignity, hope, security and students from the Middle East, Africa and around the equality—for all communities—there are still terrific world. The standards in those universities are excellent. challenges and obstacles to overcome, the greatest Students who have moved on to other countries, including being apathy and the lack of belief that it will ever the United Kingdom—to study for PhDs, for example— happen. confirm that they have encountered few problems in There have been some encouraging signs, as we their transition. The universities have become the leading have heard from other noble Lords. I was in Cyprus sector of the north Cyprus economy. I ask my noble the day after the United States Vice-President Joe friend, as did the noble Lord, Lord Harrison, whether Biden visited just a few months ago. His visit served a Her Majesty’s Government will consider actively working purpose in raising the profile of the situation in Cyprus to build consensus and relationships between universities to the international community, and led many to across the island and in the UK, and support the believe that there was about to be a breakthrough. efforts of those universities to allow recognition of the However, things have gone rather quiet again recently. work they are doing rather than leaving them in limbo. Perhaps my noble friend will bring us up to date on This would be a welcome and bold confidence-building whether Her Majesty’s Government are hopeful that measure. Surely education crosses all divides. we will hear any positive news in the coming weeks I was recently privileged to become the patron of a and months. As my noble friend Lord Northbrook new and exciting initiative on Cyprus, the first ever asked earlier, what has happened to the appointment Golden Island International Film Festival, which is of the UN special adviser? Surely this indicates a lack hoping to bring the film industry and production to of will to appoint somebody in this very important role. the island, to benefit all on the island—to encourage We need to learn lessons from the failure of the people to invest there economically and culturally and Annan plan, 10 years on. Both communities felt excluded to bring recognition of what Cyprus has to offer. from the peace plan that was put before them in a Those are the sorts of initiatives that civil society is 575 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus 576

[BARONESS HUSSEIN-ECE] to his own political prospects. Since becoming President working hard on despite 40 years of embargoes. There and despite the distractions of the economic crisis, is so much going on on the ground below the level that which nearly overwhelmed Cyprus last year, he has politicians usually give much attention to. But this worked steadily to get the settlement negotiations demonstrates just how much there is a will among the back on track. people of Cyprus and the large Cypriot diaspora in Secondly, there is a fundamental shift in the underlying this country to keep things moving there to make the economic arguments in favour of a settlement. In the best of a very bad situation. period from 1996 to 2003, when I was involved in the As I said earlier, there are no magic solutions and I settlement process, those economic arguments were am not going to repeat and rehearse the arguments either ignored or traduced. The Greek Cypriot economy that we have already heard. On the anniversary there was riding high in the run-up to EU accession. The was, as ever, a big demonstration in Trafalgar Square Turkish Cypriot economy lagged far behind and was by Greek Cypriots in the UK asking for the withdrawal stagnant. It was argued, mendaciously, that a settlement of Turkish troops. There have been other moves for would load a huge, fat fiscal burden on to the Greek Varosha outside Famagusta to be handed over as a Cypriot economy. That gap has now narrowed, and confidence-building measure. All these issues must be the potential advantages for the recovery of the Greek dealt with in a comprehensive peace settlement. We Cypriot economy of a settlement and of free access to also hear how many Turkish settlers have arrived on the massive Turkish market are more evident and can the island over the years. But with the lack of any no longer be discounted. comprehensive peace deal, in reality the north of Thirdly, the discovery of substantial gas deposits in Cyprus is more and more reliant on Turkey. There are the waters around Cyprus has introduced a new and no magic solutions for a peace deal that no one has yet positive element to the equation. No doubt, I suspect, though of. All the options have been discussed and those energy resources could be developed and debated for decades. What is really needed is the will commercialised in an autarchic manner by the Greek to achieve a lasting peace for all Cypriots. Cypriots. That remains to be proven, but I think it is unwise to assume that it could not be done. There can 7.36 pm surely be little doubt, however, that the benefits to the Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB): My Lords, being peoples of Cyprus will be far greater if that development the final Back-Bench speaker in a debate, it is always a and commercialisation could take place in the framework little tempting to refer to those who have preceded of a reunited island and with the willing co-operation you. I will try to resist that temptation other than to of Turkey. say to my noble friend Lord Maginnis, whose views I Fourthly, there is almost certainly going to be the do not entirely share, that as I listened to him launch emergence of Mr Erdogan as the next president of into his narrative, I closed my eyes and I thought I was Turkey. That looks more and more like a matter of back in Rauf Denktas’s office, the former district when and not if. Mr. Erdogan did much in the period commissioner’s office in Nicosia, where if you could from 2002 to 2004 to reverse the traditional Turkish hear anything above the budgerigars that used to policy of supporting Rauf Denktas in blocking a tweet around that office, he would give you that narrative. settlement in Cyprus. If he comes to office with a clear, The only two differences are that his version lasted for democratic mandate next month, it will surely be 40 minutes— fitting and would be advantageous to Turkey—a Turkey which has argued that it needs to have zero problems Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: Mine could, too. with its neighbours—if he could use that mandate in support of a negotiated settlement to the Cyprus problem. Lord Hannay of Chiswick: —and that he never laid Do these four new factors mean that all is set fair any claim to objectivity. for a Cyprus settlement? Of course not. This is, after It is normally sensible not to speak in debates on all, the Cyprus problem, which has defied all attempts Cyprus when there is nothing new to say and it is at a settlement for 50 years, and where the stars certainly wise not to count the chickens of a Cyprus favouring a settlement never seem to be in conjunction. settlement before they are hatched. After all, no one There is, however, enough here, I would suggest, to has yet lost money betting against a Cyprus settlement. justify a renewed major effort by the parties in Cyprus, Neither of those considerations seems to apply to this supported by the international community, to reach a debate, initiated in such a welcome and timely manner settlement. It would be good to hear from the Minister by the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook. What leads me what contribution Britain, which has so many close to this relatively positive view is the emergence of a links with Cyprus and with both its communities, number of new factors, many of which have been intends to make in support of a search for a negotiated mentioned already, affecting what is after all one of solution. the longest lasting and most debilitating international I will conclude with a few remarks about public disputes. opinion and the involvement of Cypriots in a settlement. The first of those factors is the presence as leader of I have great admiration for Alexandros Lordos, whom the Greek Cypriot community and President of Cyprus the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, mentioned. He has of Nicos Anastasiades, a man with a proven track worked tirelessly to try to erode the barriers between record of supporting the compromises needed to achieve the two communities, and the work he does in testing a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation, and someone who opinion is extremely valuable. The real obstacle, however, campaigned in favour of acceptance of the Annan is that the leaders of both sides in Cyprus are not plan, even when such support was likely to be damaging preparing and will not for the moment prepare their 577 Cyprus[15 JULY 2014] Cyprus 578 communities for a settlement which needs to be based While peace has to be negotiated by Cypriots on compromise. That was what went on in 2003 and themselves, we believe that the UK has a privileged 2004. On the Greek Cypriot side in particular, there role. We are the main export market for Cyprus, and had been no preparation of public opinion at all. Cyprus punches above its weight as a destination for Public opinion had been fed for the past 35 years on UK exports. As the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, has an unadulterated diet of Greek Cypriot maximalist reminded us, our historical role has been, to put it claims. Not surprisingly, it proved impossible to turn mildly, a chequered one. Britain took administrative them round on a sixpence when the Annan plan was control of Cyprus after the Congress of Berlin in produced. It will be the same again if the leaders 1878—a Disraeli special—and declared Cyprus a British cannot bring themselves to prepare their communities colony in 1915. Under the terms of the 1960 treaty, we for the sort of compromises that will need to be made. remain one of three guarantor powers. I do hope that that process can get under way. Perhaps Of course we have another role, as about 3% of the the noble Baroness could talk a little bit about that island of Cyprus is comprised of UK sovereign bases. too. In government, we proposed that about half the land in bases in Cyprus would be made available to a united 7.44 pm island once a resolution was found. Will the Minister Lord Wood of Anfield (Lab): My Lords, I too thank tell us the coalition Government’s position on that the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, for this debate. For proposition now that negotiations have begun again? 40 years we have seen moments of opportunity come Recent developments have given us some cause for and go but very little progress towards a settlement in hope, particularly the joint declaration process that started Cyprus. Now, as many speakers have said, we have a in February. The declaration signed by representatives moment of opportunity that we have not had since the of both communities marked the most significant Annan plan of 2004—the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein- breakthrough that we have had for at least 10 years. Ece, referred to that—and possibly a moment we have There are encouraging signs in the declaration of not had since 1974. principles that can form the basis of a lasting settlement. The people of Cyprus deserve a settlement to bring The declaration confirms the unacceptability of the stability, peace, settlement of long-standing grievances status quo. It commits to the integrity and identity of and issues, and the possibility of prosperity. The failure both Greek and Turkish Cypriot communities. It affirms to achieve a settlement in Cyprus, however, also respect for democratic principles, human rights and undermines the search for security in a crucial region fundamental freedom. It states that, that is a hinge between Europe and the Middle East. “any settlement will be based on a bi-communal, bi-zonal federation Instability in Cyprus continues to affect the function with political equality”, of the European Union and the ability of the European Union to co-operate effectively with NATO. to form a single, sovereign Cyprus inside the European Union. It envisages a federal constitution, For our part, as many speakers have said, the UK has a special responsibility to be a supportive force for “composed of two constituent states of equal status”, resolution because of our colonial past, because of legitimised by separate and simultaneous referenda. our pivotal roles in the European Union and NATO, These are all encouraging shared commitments. It and because we are a guarantor power. This year it is further encouragement that, although progress has seems we have a moment for very cautious optimism been slow, there have been further meetings, most recently but, as always, we need optimism grounded in realism. at the beginning of last week. The meeting seems to I will make a few remarks about the principles of have made some limited progress—I am being more our party’s approach to achieving a settlement in optimistic than my noble friend—on mutual confidence- Cyprus, to assess the progress in the process that building, and ended with a five-step road map being began with the February declaration and to look at submitted to the Greek Cypriots by the Turkish Cypriot the wider issues that any successful process needs to leadership and an agreement to meet again later this address. month. I will start by setting out our party’s approach. We I want to ask the Minister about reports that the are committed to a just and lasting settlement for the Turkish Cypriot side has suggested a meeting with whole of Cyprus. That settlement has to be based on a the guarantor powers, including the UK, at some bi-communal, bi-zonal federation. We strongly believe point this year after discussions have begun on the that, to use the formulation of the noble Lord, Lord highly vexed issue of territory on the island. Are the Northbrook, a settlement has to be negotiated by Government involved in discussions on participating Cypriots, for Cypriots and under the auspices of the in such a summit? What is the Government’s response UN. Only then will it be acceptable and provide for a to the Turkish Cypriot leader Ero?lu’s proposal that just and sustainable solution. the referenda take place before the year’s end? While we do not support recognition for the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, Turkish Cypriots have The progress in negotiations is welcome to all of us, interests, aspirations and a burning desire for peace but we know that agreement has proved elusive in the that are as valid as those of Greek Cypriots. Cyprus’s past for good reasons. There are significant areas of population is about 800,000, of whom 80% are Greek disagreement and difficulty—issues that have sabotaged Cypriots and about 11% Turkish Cypriots, but, despite previous plans for the past 40 years. this numerical asymmetry, any just settlement must be First, there is the bundle of issues around territory, based on the principle of equality of treatment of the property and displaced persons. The legacy of both two communities. the violence of the early 1960s and the Turkish military 579 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus 580

[LORD WOOD OF ANFIELD] It is a simple maxim, but a crucial one. If 2014 is, as intervention in 1974 is a complex set of issues around the communities’ leaders seem to want it to be, the the need for land swaps, restitution of property, the year in which a successful negotiation is concluded, status of areas such as Morphou and Famagusta, and they have to provide a credible and legitimate way church property on the island. It is estimated that through on all these issues and not just on some. around 200,000 Greek Cypriots were forced to leave It is said of Aphrodite, who was born in Cyprus, their land in Northern Cyprus after 1974, and the that because of her beauty, other gods feared their issue of repatriation of new Turkish settlers on the rivalry over her would interrupt the peace among island was a key factor in the unravelling of the Perez them. Surely it is time for us all to combine our efforts de Cuellar plan in the mid-1980s. These issues are the to ensure that peace and instability in Cyprus are most sensitive of all and demand more than any other— interrupted no longer.

Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I apologise for 7.54 pm interrupting, but I did not pick up what the noble The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Lord said. Did he say that Greek Cypriots had to and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth abandon their territory and did he fail to mention the Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Lords, I thank my fact that Turkish Cypriots—for example, on the site of noble friend Lord Northbrook for calling this debate the present airport in the south—had to abandon and for having it in the main Chamber. I thank other theirs? Did he overlook that point? noble Lords for their valuable and eloquent contributions. I know that several noble Lords maintain close contacts Lord Wood of Anfield: No, absolutely not. The with a range of Cypriot and Turkish interlocutors, noble Lord is absolutely right: Cypriots of both and I commend their continued support for efforts to communities have had to leave land. Working out a unify Cyprus. The interventions today have shown the final agreement on settlement and property restitution full extent of the UK’s strategic interest in a comprehensive affects both communities. These issues demand more settlement in Cyprus. The Cypriots would be the main than any other a spirit of pragmatism, compromise and beneficiaries of a solution, for which they have waited trust between the representatives of the two communities. too long, but, as noble Lords have pointed out, it is Secondly, there are the issues around the Cypriot also right to be aware of the advantages for the wider economy and trade with the European Union and the region. I welcome the recognition given by many noble neighbourhood. On the Greek side of the island, Lords to the intense efforts of this Government in Cyprus has seriously suffered from the fallout of the support of the current round of talks. We will continue financial crash and a bailout—or rather a bail-in, to to support the UN and the leaders of both communities be more accurate—of Cypriot banks which imposed a in these negotiations. levy on depositors, in banks that were supposedly As part of our diplomatic efforts, my right honourable covered by a deposit insurance scheme. It was a move friend the Minister for Europe invited the two chief which in my view the EU would not have countenanced negotiators to London in June. They both showed for the larger members of the EU but was seen as okay determination and seriousness to negotiate a solution. for smaller ones. It is not unusual at this stage of any peace talks for Meanwhile, Turkish Cyprus continues to have no there to be disagreements on the process and on the direct trade relations with the European Union. Ten substance. The two communities—and, just as importantly, years ago, the EU proposed giving more than ¤260 Turkey—are showing the right level of ambition to million to the Turkish Cypriots for infrastructure spending reach a settlement. No one should underestimate the and to open up trade with them, but, sadly, very little scale of the potential challenges ahead, but there has progress has been made on this front in the past been no better time in recent years to achieve a lasting decade. I would like the Minister’s view on whether solution. there is any prospect with the advent of a new Commission I am aware that today is the 40th anniversary of the and a newly elected European Parliament for any coup. The difficult events of the summer of 1974 limited progress in the next few months in that area. continue to cast a long shadow over Cyprus. This is a Lastly, there is the question of constitutional moment also to remember all those Cypriots who have arrangements. Prior to 1974, Cyprus had a constitution been victims of violence since independence. At the that one expert called, time, British military intervention was seen as contradicting “unique in its tortuous complexity”. the long-standing UK policy of pursuing a peaceful Of course, any constitutional arrangement that provides settlement of the dispute by means of negotiations rights of self-government for two communities, as well between the parties under the aegis of the UN. This as rules for decision-making at the federal level, is Government’s focus is on supporting the reunification bound to be complex, but so-called consociational of Cyprus. If noble Lords want to examine the UK’s arrangements for countries with a history of conflict policy at the time, I refer them to the report of the between two or more communities can take root and House of Commons Select Committee on Cyprus endure. I appreciate that these solutions take time, but which was published in 1976. In response to my noble can the Minister tell us whether any thinking is going friend Lord Balfe, I can confirm that the Government’s on in the Government about offering assistance in the position has not changed and we do not recognise the form of constitutional expertise to the communities? so-called Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. My Lords, there is a line in the February declaration I understand that members of each community and that reads that, noble Lords in this House tend to interpret past events “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”. in different ways, and indeed the exact population 581 Cyprus[15 JULY 2014] Cyprus 582 percentages are contested even today. I note the point dialogue in support of the talks. For the first time made by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis. I hope that since 1963, Muslim prayers were recently held in a he takes my comment about a previous speech of his historic mosque in Nicosia. being a “robust alternative critique” in a positive In response to the noble Lord, Lord Wood, I can manner. I of course pay tribute to those British personnel confirm that the UK has maintained the offer to cede who lost their lives during that emergency period, and nearly half the sovereign base area territories in the the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, referred to that. Given event of a comprehensive settlement in Cyprus. the long history of the negotiations, there is much The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, and others have valuable previous work to draw on, and we are rightly spoken of the economic benefits of a settlement. encouraging both sides to establish areas of agreement A united Cyprus would benefit from a larger and more on the unresolved core issues as soon as possible. efficient economy and an improved investment climate. A number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Northbrook, asked about the UN special adviser. We have discussed this matter with the UN Lord Kilclooney (CB): When the Minister says we and with the parties and of course support an early are prepared to cede our sovereign territories to Cyprus, appointment. The previous special adviser, Alexander to which part of Cyprus does she mean? To the Greek Downer, who was referred to in this debate, has made Cypriot part if there is a settlement, to the Turkish great efforts during the past six years to help the Cypriot part if there is a settlement, or to both parts? parties reach a solution. A new special adviser could help the parties achieve what they say they want, but Baroness Warsi: We hope that the settlement will the process, as a number of noble Lords have said, ensure that there is a united Cyprus. must be led by the Cypriots, who will need full ownership A united Cyprus would benefit from a larger and of any solution. I hope that my noble friend Lord more efficient economy, an improved investment climate Sharkey will understand if I am not drawn on names and improved trading relations with Turkey and the at this stage. wider Middle East. A solution would also allow Cyprus The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and my noble fully to exploit its natural resources. I welcome the friend Lady Hussein-Ece spoke about the current state increased attention being paid to the economic dimension. of play. Noble Lords will be aware that talks resumed More than a year after the bailout agreement, the on 11 February. The leaders have since then met five Cypriot economy is doing better than expected, but times and we welcome their commitment to reach a there are challenges ahead. We are providing technical solution. Both sides now have a much better sense of assistance in the area of public sector reform to support each other’s positions and concerns, and they have begun Cyprus’s efforts to implement the troika memorandum, seeking the common ground in a number of areas. We which sets out the framework for troika support to the hope to see further progress from September, when we Cypriot economy. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord expect a new UN special adviser to be in place. We Harrison, will see that as part of the UK’s support for would also consider what further political support the public sector reform. Security Council could give to the process, including The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, also raised the during the United Nations General Assembly week. issue of direct flights. This would, of course, help. The Leaders in both communities also need to prepare UK Court of Appeal has confirmed that direct flights the public for a settlement. My noble friend Lady from the UK to the northern part of Cyprus would Hussein-Ece spoke about the civil society being engaged. breach our obligations under international law. The I fully agree with her recommendations. As negotiations court found that it was for the Republic of Cyprus to make progress, greater civil society involvement is determine which airports are open to international highly desirable. This Government have given practical traffic, and as a result no airlines are licensed to support to increasing civil society participation in the operate flights from the UK direct to the north of process. Just yesterday, business leaders from both Cyprus. The UK supports the European Commission’s sides reached an agreement on mobile phone roaming proposal for a direct trade regulation to enhance the across the whole of Cyprus. As the noble Lord, Lord Turkish Cypriot community’s access to EU markets. Hannay, said, a better understanding of the benefits Disagreements over the legal basis mean that this has of a solution can only help ordinary Cypriots to make not yet been agreed. A comprehensive settlement to an informed decision in the referenda to come. I pay the Cyprus problem would mean that such measures tribute to the work of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, would not be required, since the whole island would who for many years has given huge service and enjoy the benefits of EU membership. commitment to this cause. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, asked about UK Her Majesty’s Government have also co-funded, support at the time of the financial crisis. For a with the United Nations, an initiative to promote the settlement to work, the Turkish Cypriot constituent involvement of civic and business leaders in the talks. state will need to be ready to function as part of a We also maintain good relations with a wide spectrum united Cyprus within the EU. Since 2004, the UK and of Cypriot society and with the diaspora in London. the EU have funded a range of projects, including Faith groups, too, have given their backing to the during the period of the financial crisis, supporting current talks and our High Commissioner in Cyprus modernisation of the public administration, which we attended the landmark Good Friday church service in think is necessary in order to be ready for a settlement. Famagusta. In May, my right honourable friend the Now that talks have resumed and are making progress, Minister for Europe and the Archbishop of Cyprus it may be time to look again at what more the EU met in London and agreed the importance of interfaith could do so that a settlement is viable. 583 Cyprus[LORDS] Cyprus 584

[BARONESS WARSI] education. We would support further measures to My noble friend Lord Balfe spoke about Turkish address Turkish Cypriot isolation. The British Council Cypriot isolation. The UK remains committed to already helps Turkish Cypriot students access educational supporting the economic development of the Turkish opportunities across Europe. However, once again the Cypriot community and bringing Turkish Cypriots status of the north, as the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, closer to Europe. They are, after all, EU citizens. The has just mentioned, poses constraints on what we and status quo is, of course, difficult for all Cypriots, and the EU institutions can do. the Turkish Cypriots in particular feel the effects of Reunification is not only about economics. A settlement Cyprus’s division. would make a substantial contribution to the security and prosperity of the region, unlock Turkey’s EU Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I interrupt only briefly. accession process and enable full co-operation between Is there not a contradiction in what the Minister has the EU and NATO. That is all the more important just said? The Turkish Cypriots are members of the given the new challenges that a number of noble Lords European Community, but we do not recognise them referred to in the European neighbourhood, as we and we will not recognise them. To put it simply, we do have seen in Ukraine. Turkey is Europe’s emerging not give any place to self-determination. power and Cyprus is the EU’s easternmost member. Both share a sometimes difficult region. A unified Baroness Warsi: Of course, it is because there is a Cyprus could well become a role model of intercommunity dispute that we are in the state that we are. It may not harmony—one of peace and prosperity founded on be the answer that the noble Lord wishes to hear, but deepening relationships with its neighbours. unfortunately, that is the current state of play. We of course followed closely the Turkish Cypriots’ The noble Lord, Lord Wood, asked about an recent experience of the European parliamentary elections international conference. The UK stands ready to in Cyrus—something that my noble friend Lady Hussein- participate in such a conference once the parties have Ece referred to. My officials in Nicosia have spoken to reached a greater level of convergence on the core Turkish Cypriot politicians, Republic of Cyprus officials issues of the settlement process. He also asked about and the European Commission. We do not believe the constitutional reform process. Again, we stand ready that the difficulties encountered on the day were due to respond to a request from either of the parties for to deliberate obstruction by the Republic of Cyprus technical advice on constitutional issues or to do authorities, but that does not, of course, lessen the anything to support the settlement process. frustration and sense of discrimination felt by many Turkish Cypriots who believe that they were eligible A number of noble Lords, including my noble for the first time to vote in these elections. friends Lord Northbrook, Lord Balfe and Lady Hussein- Ece asked about Cyprus’s exploitation of its natural In conclusion, this debate has underlined the warmth resources. We accept the Republic of Cyprus’s sovereign of the ties between the UK and Cyprus, and that this right to exploit its natural resources and it remains our Government firmly believe that a solution that meets position that such resources should be exploited for the fundamental concerns of both communities is the benefit of all the communities in Cyprus. Estimates available. The benefits of a solution, whether political, of the scale of the natural resources vary, though the economic, social or in terms of security, are clear. The potential is clearly significant. We are aware of the parties have stated their willingness to reach a deal, Turkish Cypriot proposals on hydrocarbons and it is and Cypriots of both communities want to live and for the leaders of the two communities to work together prosper together in peace. This Government will continue on any proposals to share the revenue from Cyprus’s to encourage them in that noble and achievable ambition. exclusive economic zone. We would welcome any Once again, I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving agreement which the two communities can reach on this. us the opportunity to discuss these important issues. The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, asked about universities, including the Bologna process in higher House adjourned at 8.08 pm. GC 211 Arrangement of Business[15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 212

There is significant surplus public sector land in Grand Committee London, much of it indeed owned and put to good use by the GLA group. However, according to the Tuesday, 15 July 2014. Government in March this year, there are in London alone 75 surplus National Health Service sites, totalling 80 hectares, which could well be ready for development. Arrangement of Business I will not say that we are correcting an anomaly—no Announcement one would admit to drafting a Bill that contains an anomaly—but I hope we are filling a gap with this 3.30 pm amendment, and that we will ensure that the GLA has the powers it needs to continue the very good work The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness that it has done under both Administrations to make Pitkeathley) (Lab): Good afternoon, my Lords. I remind much better use of surplus publicly held land for your Lordships that if there is a Division in the housing. I do not need to stress again today the urgent Chamber while we are sitting, the Committee will need in London—perhaps throughout the country but adjourn as soon as the Division Bells are rung and nowhere more so than in London—to make the best resume after 10 minutes. possible use of land for additional housing. Infrastructure Bill [HL] In addition, it is the GLA that has the strategic planning role for Greater London, which fits together Committee (4th Day) with this amendment. Finally, there is the issue of 3.30 pm democratic oversight, provided by the Greater London Relevant documents: 2nd and 3rd Reports from Authority itself with its directly elected mayor and the the Delegated Powers Committee elected London Assembly, but also by the—less well known but equally important in this context—Homes Clause 21: Property etc transfers to the HCA for London Board, which is a joint body with the GLA and the London boroughs and can oversee all this. Amendment 84 The noble Lord, Lord Best, has also put his name Moved by Lord Tope to my amendment. He has given me his apologies for 84: Clause 21, page 22, line 21, at end insert “or GLA” being unable to be here today. He has recently been Lord Tope (LD): Before I move the amendment, I appointed chairman of your Lordships’ Communications wonder whether it would be appropriate to offer Select Committee, which, unfortunately from our point of congratulations, in absentia, to the Minister who I view, meets every Tuesday afternoon. He understandably thought would be replying to me today. We congratulate feels that, as its newly elected chairman, he should be her on her escape from the Infrastructure Bill, even there. However, he has said to me, for the record: though she will no doubt miss all its excitement. It is a “I understand the Homes and Communities Agency is not particular pleasure for me to welcome, rather unexpectedly, raising any objection to the idea of the GLA taking on this role for London: the HCA no longer operates within Greater London the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, to answer here and it seems entirely sensible for the GLA to include this in their today, particularly in view of this amendment, which wider role—in partnership with the London Boroughs through relates to the Greater London Authority, of which she the Homes for London Board; the housing association sector has considerable knowledge and experience. I look admires the leadership role which the GLA through the Deputy forward to an even more favourable response than I Mayor for Housing and Planning, Richard Blakeway, is pursuing, was expecting. not least in arguing for Lifetime Homes accessibility standards, improved space standards and better performance by London’s In moving the amendment, I shall speak also to private rented sector. I think the general view is that the GLA is a Amendment 85. They are two fairly simple and highly competent body on the housing scene and would make a straightforward amendments that would add “or GLA”— success of this extra role”. the Greater London Authority—to this part of the I think these amendments are necessary. They are Bill. I have tabled them because under the Localism clearly sensible and they future-proof against any Act 2011, the Homes and Communities Agency no further needs. I beg to move. longer has any remit in Greater London. That responsibility was devolved to the Greater London Authority and it is therefore logical that the powers Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con): My Lords, my noble going to the HCA, which will apply only to the rest of friend will recollect that I raised this point at Second the country and not to London, should in this instance Reading on 18 June at col. 856. I will not repeat what I be passed to the GLA—hence my comment about the said on that occasion, or indeed on the very important Minister who is now to reply having some knowledge points that my noble friend Lord Tope has just made. and experience, not least of one of the major landowning The Minister was as good as her word and replied parts of the Greater London Authority, namely Transport to the points that she did not have time for when she for London. Unless we make this amendment, there responded at Second Reading. She wrote to me on will be some vacuum in London as to what will 1 July about the points I had raised, including this one, happen. It will seem that the powers that the Bill seeks which she headed “Mayoral Powers”: to give to the Homes and Communities Agency simply “Government officials and the Greater London Authority are will not apply in Greater London, which makes no in ongoing dialogue to agree suitable ways to transfer public sense at all. Therefore, I genuinely look forward to a sector land in London. If amendment of legislation is required, sympathetic response. we will explore this at an appropriate opportunity in the future”. GC 213 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 214

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] easements. This means that such owner-developers It is a long time since I have felt that I was pushing at a could be pursued for remedies by the previous owners door that is not only half open but almost entirely and beneficiaries of such rights. Given that Clause 22(10) open. I hope my noble friend will be able to give us a is to operate only where land is disposed of after the little more information this afternoon. provision comes into force, how does the Minister see The need for housing, particularly affordable housing, this point being addressed? in London is acute. There can be very few couples —potential homeowners—under the age of 35 or The Minister of State, Department for Transport thereabouts who feel that without significant parental (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Lords, it is a pleasure to help, or whatever else might be available, they will ever stand here in the place of my noble friend Lady be able to buy a house. Part of the reason for that is Stowell. I join the congratulations to her on her new the shortage of building land within the Greater London role and apologise for the disappointment of noble area and in the area immediately surrounding it. The Lords who were looking forward to debating these disposal of surplus public land has become a matter of issues with her today. I will have to do for today’s huge urgency. I believe, as my noble friend has said—and purposes. he quoted the noble Lord, Lord Best—that the Greater The public sector land programme aims to speed up London Authority has this whole issue very much in the disposal of land and put disused land back into mind and on its whole agenda for the development of use for much needed homes. The current public sector London. The case for it to be the body to initiate, land programme has identified land with capacity to promote and encourage this is very strong indeed and deliver 100,000 new homes by March 2015. At the end I hope my noble friend the Minister will be able to give of March 2014, it had released land capable of delivering us an encouraging answer this afternoon. I support more than 76,000 homes. As we move forward with the amendment moved by noble friend Lord Tope. the programme, we are aiming to reduce the bureaucracy involved in transferring land to the HCA and to speed Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab): My Lords, I up delivery of much needed homes and economic congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, on her development. extended role during the course of this Bill and indirectly The GLA has a pivotal role in delivering housing congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell. The and economic growth in the capital, as my noble amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tope—for friend Lord Tope illustrated, and we are working with the GLA to perform the role of disposal agency in it to consider how its expertise can best be utilised in London—on the face of it makes very good sense. As the disposal of surplus government land. In some the noble Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Jenkin, said, the cases, this may mean transferring sites from central HCA’s objects simply do not run in Greater London government bodies to the GLA. Although the original as a result of the Localism Act 2011, and without a clause, which is the one currently in the Bill, did not change you would have to retain the arrangements mention the Greater London Authority, we agree that where transfers are made indirectly. there may be some benefit to exploring whether it I took the opportunity to raise the matter with the should be included in the clause. There is an existing Bill team, who have sent me a helpful note, which, if I transfer process, but this might smooth the process of may, I will just read from: transferring sites from arm’s-length bodies to the GLA. “I have been advised that under the Localism Act 2011, the There would need to be an agreement between the GLA has responsibility for the HCA functions in London and the Government and the GLA that this is the best delivery HCA does not have a remit to operate. The HCA has powers to mechanism for individual sites and the one that provides operate in London but to do so would require delegated authority from the mayor. Under existing legislation, central Governments best value to the taxpayer. can transfer their land directly to the GLA; arm’s length bodies One alternative, for example, would be to purchase can also presently do so but would have to transfer the land to the land directly from the Government or their ALBs. All parent department first”. this needs further discussion and exploration with the That is the inefficiency we are trying to tackle with this various parties, and we need to work through whether provision. The note goes on: there are stamp duty implications or other factors. “DCLG are working with the GLA to determine what offer Some resolution will be required before we can come the GLA would be able to make to departments regarding land to a definite decision on that process. We have been transfer. This will include whether statutory transfer is the most working closely with the GLA on the land disposal appropriate mechanism or whether an alternative approach is preferable”. programme, as we will continue to do, so that we can work out how surplus public land can be better used Could the noble Baroness just unpick that expression to support housing and economic growth, alongside a little? Whatever arrangements are to be entered into, finding efficiency savings. We recognise what the noble it does not seem to me to preclude supporting the Lord, Lord McKenzie, said— amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Tope. We have had a helpful briefing from the Mayor of 3.45 pm London, which raised a number of points. The point about the GLA having to hold its land in a taxable Lord Jenkin of Roding: I perhaps should have subsidiary company would appear to have been addressed mentioned earlier that shortly before coming to the by government amendments, but there was also a Committee, I had an urgent e-mail from a group with point about transfers of land from the GLA, a mayoral which I had been in touch about what amounts to development corporation or the HCA hitherto not affordable housing. It is a question of whether the having been able to pass on the override of third-party houses that this group provides are liable for the local GC 215 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 216 land levy. A decision was made in the group’s favour, Lord Tope: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble which it sees as possibly depriving it of the opportunities friend Lord Jenkin and, in absentia, the noble Lord, to have the land. My noble friend has made the point Lord Best, on whose behalf I also spoke, and, perhaps about how the surplus land, as it were, brought into particularly, to the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, for the ownership of the GLA, or whoever, will be disposed pressing the point. I have to say that long experience in of. If my noble friend could include that in her examination your Lordships’ House has taught me that moving a of the matter that her officials will be discussing with simple two-word amendment is no more likely to the GLA, some of these people might have some succeed than a two-page amendment. I have much comfort. They fear that they may not be in people’s sympathy with the point made by the noble Lord, sights of having land that ought really to be made Lord McKenzie, that it is a simple amendment that available for affordable housing. probably could have been accepted today without in any way inhibiting or preventing the discussions, which I am very pleased to hear are going on. I had no Baroness Kramer (LD): The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin expectation that it would be accepted. of Roding, makes clear that there are complexities in all this. We do not have set levels of affordable housing. I am very grateful for what the Minister has had to That has to be for the local authority. It is best placed say. I wrote down the splendid phrase “may be beneficial and will undoubtedly use its planning processes, which to exploring”, and I am pleased that discussions are of course apply to any development, to make the going on with the GLA. I have no doubt that, in one relevant determinations. He is right that there are form or another, we will return to this issue in three complexities that we have to iron out and work our months’ time at the next stage of the Bill. Whether it is way through. I just want to alert the Committee and to with a simple two-word amendment or a rather more say that we are sympathetic to the underlying direction complex two-page amendment, I will wait with interest of this amendment, but there is work to be done to to see. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the know whether this is the most effective way to achieve amendment. what I think everyone here is attempting to achieve. Amendment 84 withdrawn.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: Will the Minister expand Amendment 84A on what she said because I am not quite following? I can see that there may, in differing circumstances, be Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton details to work out as to how particular parcels of 84A: Clause 21, page 22, line 21, at end insert “or local land are put together and how they end up for the authorities” benefit of housing in London. But this amendment would simply include the possibility of the GLA being Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is a probing the beneficiary of a Secretary of State’s scheme. The amendment and it has been suggested to us by the Secretary of State does not have to enter into a scheme Local Government Association. The purpose of the under these provisions in all circumstances. I am struggling amendments in this group is to allow one or more to see why the amendment could not be accepted. It schemes for the transfer of designated property rights would not be mandatory. It would just be one route. If and liabilities to local authorities, as well as to the it is not picked up in this Bill, I wonder when it will be HCA. The LGA is clear that local councils share the picked up by another local Bill coming down the path. Government’s focus on using publicly owned land to I am struggling to see the logic in not making this support housing development, and it suggested that adjustment. councils have a programme to release, between 2015 and 2018, assets amounting to some £13.3 billion. Baroness Kramer: I say to the noble Lord, Lord Apparently a number of councils have undertaken McKenzie, that I will go back to the department and the pooling of their land assets with central government, ask whether we can share any of that without disrupting and such activities could be facilitated if such assets the process of negotiation. I am sure that we would be could be transferred to local authorities rather than willing to share those thoughts. This goes beyond my via the HCA. The LGA says that it has recently been direct area of expertise and I would not want to asked by the Cabinet Office to help to transfer to local mislead the noble Lord by taking him in a wrong councils some 3,000 separate land and property assets direction. We will try to provide that clarification. The held by government departments and agencies. These one thing that everyone here would be concerned range in size and value and could be packaged for about is making sure that it does not disrupt a negotiation transfer. Would not these situations lend themselves process that would come to the conclusion that we are to the types of schemes envisaged by Clause 21? all seeking; that is, the efficient transfer of land to Otherwise it would presumably involve the HCA as an make sure that housing is made available at the earliest intermediary. possible date. There is a question of whether all local authorities I will be happy to work with your Lordships. The would automatically be able to override relevant rights department is working with the GLA to consider and restrictions on users and to secure these for third-party whether these amendments would be beneficial or purchases. Doubtless the Minister will be able to help whether a somewhat different form is needed to deliver us on that. We may need to do more work on this that public sector land programme in London. With before Report, but this is surely worth developing as a that assurance, I hope that my noble friend Lord Tope concept and I am interested to hear the Government’s will feel able to withdraw his amendment. position. I beg to move. GC 217 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 218

Lord Smith of Leigh (Lab): My Lords, in some ways Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, I was relieved to the north-west is ahead of the game in handing over hear the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, say that this was land to the HCA. When the NWDA was abolished by a probing amendment. It is on that basis that I hope the Government, we had quite a large landholding for that the Minister will at least undertake to examine the that agency, and the question was: what to do with the possibility. All three noble Lords who have spoken in land? Rather than try to disperse it through a large favour of the amendment have much more recent number of local authorities, it was transferred to the experience than I of local government service. It is HCA. That worked successfully, first, because these more than 50 years since I was chairman of the were pretty large-scale plots of land. They were originally housing committee of a then London borough which designed for economic development and that was the is now part of the London Borough of Haringey. It purpose to which they were put. Secondly, the HCA was then called Hornsey—I should say that it ends operates on a local basis, so we were dealing with a “sey” for the benefit of Hansard, which usually spells local branch of the HCA; we were not dealing with it like the Lincolnshire town. However, I was the any central bases in London. Thirdly, the HCA worked chairman of housing and the problem existed then. In very effectively with local authorities. Therefore, any an inner London borough, one was very much of planning problems could be rapidly dealt with, and aware of the shortage of available land. We had a the HCA reported back to the North West Regional substantial slum clearance programme and I was very Leaders Board, which is a local authority leaders much concerned about where we were going to put the board, on what was left of the portfolio. residents while the building was going on. That was a Therefore, I think that the principle of what the problem and I lost my seat on the council before it was Government are doing is ideal. I do not think that the solved, but that is a different story which my noble LGA—I must declare an interest as a vice-president of friends in the Liberal Democrat party perhaps do not it—wants to undermine that, but it may be a case of wish to hear. However, within six weeks I was the horses for courses. There may be parcels of land prospective parliamentary candidate for Woodford, so which, by their nature, are small in scale and value and I did not mind very much. which would probably be better for the local authority There is a real problem with surplus land. For me, to work with at its local level rather than the HCA, by far the most important objective that this clause is which operates on a regional basis. intended to achieve is speeding up the whole process I hope that, in replying, the Minister can reflect on of getting surplus public land into development. The what my noble friend said in introducing the amendment test that I hope my noble friend’s department will be and can see whether there is a way forward on this matter. able to apply to this is: does this amendment actually promote that objective? The objective is not necessarily to allow local councils to retain land because I suspect Lord Tope: My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, that some of them have a good surplus of public land, said that this had been introduced as a probing which they somehow think they may want to develop amendment. I recognise that and will certainly be very in future. Such is the housing crisis in this country—as interested to hear the response. I was particularly we have said, it is a crisis particularly in London but I interested to hear the comments from the noble Lord, think it is elsewhere as well—that the important thing Lord Smith. I am quite prepared to accept that in this is to get the land into use now. The test that ought to respect, at least, the north-west, or more particularly be applied is whether this amendment would help to Greater Manchester, leads the way with the combined achieve that or not. authority, which some of us think may well be part of the way forward for the rest of the country. The experience in Greater Manchester, to which the noble Baroness Kramer: My Lords, that is some intimidating Lord, Lord Smith, has just referred, is certainly very experience from quite a number of your Lordships, interesting. which I cannot possibly hope to match. However, your I was not terribly clear whether he was supporting Lordships will be aware that a recently concluded the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, or strategic land and property review identified the scope supporting the probe, or saying that it is something to generate something like £5 billion in receipts from worth exploring. It is certainly worth exploring. I hope both land and property to support growth and drive that the Minister will agree to take it back and look efficiency. The Homes and Communities Agency will not at why we do not need it or why it is not necessary, have an important role to play in leading this programme but whether and to what extent it would add to the from next year. However, it may not always be the best available permissions for doing this. I think it is true or the only delivery option. The noble Lord, Lord that most local authorities, of whatever political persuasion Smith, gave us an illustration from Greater Manchester. and in whatever part of the country, are now keen to He obviously has great expertise and played a very get on and make their contribution to meeting the significant role in Greater Manchester. severe housing need throughout the country. If an As I say, local authorities also have a vital contribution amendment or addition of this sort does anything to to make, and in some cases this may mean transferring add to that, it must be desirable, even if it is not strictly sites to them. I am keen that we explore the best necessary. I hope that on that basis, the Minister— options for delivery, taking into account local although I suspect that she is not about to accept this circumstances. So while our clause does not mention amendment—will at least agree to take it back and local authorities, to respond to my noble friend Lord give some positive consideration to how such an Tope, there may indeed be benefits to exploring whether amendment or alteration might add one more weapon they should be included in the clause, which may to the armoury. smooth the process of transferring sites from central GC 219 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 220 government’s arm’s-length bodies to local authorities, I was not quite sure—perhaps this is something that where this is the best option locally and supports the could be looked at when the amendment is being delivery of local and national priorities. otherwise addressed—of the extent to which local authorities are always able to pass on the benefit of 4pm easements that they have. Obviously, that is quite I must be clear, however, that we will need to firmly important for the development of process. establish that there is a need for this change and, if so, I am grateful to all noble Lords who supported the decide whether an amendment to this clause is the probe: my noble friend Lord Smith and the noble most appropriate vehicle for it. In agreeing to consider, Lords, Lord Tope and Lord Jenkin. I think that the the Government are committing not to making the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, told us that he was the chair amendment but to considering whether something of of a housing committee 50 years ago. I remember that this nature might be needed and, if so, the mechanism when I was first on my council I could not get on to its and legislation that should be used to provide for it. housing committee as it was seen as being quite senior. The HCA is the Government’s land disposal agent Committees in those days were made up of executive for England outside London, and it is expected that members; I think I was on the council for 10 years surplus developable land will typically transfer to the before I was given a sniff of it. Having said that, I am HCA. However, as I underscored earlier, there may be grateful for the Minister’s response and beg leave to occasions where a transfer to the local authorities withdraw the amendment. would offer the greatest benefit to local development needs, and we would be keen to ensure such. I assure Amendment 84A withdrawn. the Committee that we have already been working with local enterprise partnerships through growth deals Amendments 85 and 85A not moved. to consider how the public estate as a whole could be better used to support local housing and economic growth, alongside finding those relevant efficiency Amendment 85B savings. Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton The HCA has a strong reputation for its work with 85B: Clause 21, page 22, line 24, at end insert “provided that local partners—for example, through city deals in any designated property, rights or liabilities to be transferred Birmingham, Manchester and Preston, where it is pursuant to a scheme— working closely with the local authorities on how (a) have been classified as surplus; HCA land can be used to accelerate or create additional (b) do not comprise land forming part of a common, open economic benefits. I do not have the Manchester example space or fuel or field garden allotment; and with me, but in Preston the HCA has supported an (c) do not extinguish any public rights of way. ambitious infrastructure fund that unlocked a number of key HCA sites for housing and employment use. It ( ) “Common”, “open space”and “fuel or field garden allotment” have the same meaning as in section 19 of the Acquisition of will support more than 17,000 new homes and 20,000 Land Act 1981.” jobs over the next 10 years. The HCA has been working with Birmingham City Council to develop a targeted programme of development activity to unlock the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I shall speak council’s land and create economic and housing growth. also to Amendments 86, 87 and 88, while my noble The HCA will commit its receipts from the sites that it friend Lady Royall will address Amendment 89 in sells to reinvest in the local area. particular. The HCA has worked with the city council in We are supportive of the thrust of the arrangements Bristol, establishing a land property board and the to ease complexity, bureaucracy and cost in marshalling development of a joint land portfolio for the public surplus public sector assets, but we accept what the sector estate in Bristol. This will allow a combined, Government have asserted about land held by existing co-ordinated approach for public sector land in the arm’s-length bodies not being capable of being transferred city. I hope that through that I can underscore that the directly to the HCA and the fact that this could be HCA recognises the importance of working co-operatively addressed by one or more schemes to transfer property with local authorities and local communities to come to the HCA from a specified public body. The need for through with the best outcome. this is obviously bolstered by the Government’s plans—as As I say, we will explore the issues that are raised in we have just discussed—for the HCA to be the centralised this amendment; I will take it away and consider disposal agency for surplus public sector land. further whether we should extend our clause to include In their Accelerating the Release of Public Sector local authorities or whether an alternative route would Land report of October 2011, the Government estimated be more effective. With that, I hope noble Lords will that 40% of land suitable for development sits with feel able to withdraw the amendment. public sector—both central and local government—land banks. Our amendments are a way of seeking reassurance. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I am grateful Other than transfers being capable of being made for that response; frankly, it is more generous than I directly to the HCA, it is understood that there will be had anticipated. I accept that it is not an acceptance of no change to the type of assets otherwise to be involved the amendment, but it is an acceptance that it will be and no change to the decision-making or approval taken away and looked at seriously. The amendment process. In this regard, perhaps the Minister will just was not designed in any way to diminish the role of the remind us what the process actually is—in particular, HCA; we see the importance of it. the process by which land is regarded as surplus. GC 221 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 222

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] enabled their sell-off, the Government, to their great credit, Amendment 85B was proposed to us by the Open established the Independent Panel on Forestry, which, Spaces Society. The society is concerned that, whatever under the chairmanship of Bishop James, did a splendid the warm words of the Government about the specific job. Once the report was published, the Government and limited application of Clauses 21 and 22, they are said that they agreed with the recommendations and written in very broad terms. Under Clause 21, a “public would be bringing forward a Bill in due course. Very body” means, sensibly, they spoke of draft legislation that would “a person … with functions of a public nature”. enable pre-legislative scrutiny and have the input of It is true that they have to be specified in regulations the wonderful grass-roots organisations throughout but they are regulations that are currently just subject the country which rightly campaign on these issues. to the negative procedure. The assurance from the However, here we are, two years after the publication Minister thus far is that only surplus land can be of the final report of the panel, and we have not seen subject to a scheme, but the term “surplus” does not any draft legislation. I hope that the Minister will not appear in the clause. be reduced to saying that that was because of pressures Amendments 86, 87 and 88 do no more than put in on the parliamentary timetable because, frankly, neither the Bill what the Government have already said to be I nor thousands more will believe her. While Defra’s the case, and it is difficult to see why these amendments responsibilities are great, it promises only one piece of would not be accepted. legislation this Session, which is a draft yet to be There are other matters requiring clarification. So published. It is therefore not a wonder that people are far as the easements affecting land are concerned, both anxious and lack trust. perhaps the Minister will confirm that the power to The case for sustaining and expanding our public override third-party rights exists with the HCA, local forests and woodland was superbly made by the authorities, the GLA and the Mayoral Development independent panel and endorsed by the Government. Corporation. Is it correct that this power of override The social, environmental and economic opportunities can be exercised after land has been sold but only by that they can deliver are myriad. In my community, those bodies—that is, that a third-party private sector the forest is so much an integral part of our life, our purchaser of land would not be able to initiate such culture and our heritage that we are called Foresters. overrides? Can the Minister also say a little about how The catalyst for the amendment is the fact that, whatever the tax provisions are intended to work? Presumably the Government’s policy may be, the Bill is capable of they are to avoid spurious tax charges arising from the having an impact on the public forest estate. scheme transfers, given that the nature of the scheme At Second Reading, the Minister, the noble Baroness, is by way of an “internal” reorganisation of assets. Lady Kramer, said that these provisions, However, will each of the specific public bodies be non-tax-paying entities, and what is the intent regarding “will not be used by bodies such as the Forestry Commission or National Parks, contrary to some recent, wholly unfounded, assets acquired from the HCA? On what basis will speculation”.—[Official Report, 18/6/14; col. 840.] someone acquire those assets? Will the Minister explain in greater detail why it is that There is a wider issue concerning where value will they will not be used by the Forestry Commission? accrue under the transfers. Will it be in the Treasury? What safeguards are in place to ensure that that does If the scheme means that transactions are bypassing not happen? the parent department, how is all this to work? I beg to move. My noble friend Lord McKenzie mentioned surplus. At Second Reading, the noble Baroness said: Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab): My Lords, I “The measure that we discussed for the HCA is about transferring wish to speak to Amendment 89. I apologise for not surplus land from government agencies. The public forest estate having spoken at Second Reading but I am grateful to and our national parks are in use; they are therefore not surplus and none will therefore be transferred to the Homes and Communities my noble friends Lord Adonis and Lord McKenzie of Agency”.—[Official Report, 18/6/14; col. 899.] Luton for raising the issue of the public forest estate at that stage. The response given by the Minister did not Will the Minister help us by narrowing the definition assuage my fears or those of people up and down our of surplus? From the statement that I have read out, it land who are concerned about the future of this most is not at all clear what would need to happen for land precious of our assets. to be considered surplus and then be subject to the provisions in Clause 21. It would also be useful if the Subsequently, the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell of Minister could say what would need to happen for Beeston, who of course is now Leader of the House, land described as “in use” to cease to be thought of as replied to a Written Question that I had tabled about in use. the future of our public forest estate. Very strangely, I read the answer to the question as a government press My concerns extend beyond that. By virtue of the release in response to concerns expressed about the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, the HCA, and Infrastructure Bill, and that was before I received an any other person, has an existing right to undertake Answer from the noble Baroness. I should be grateful works on and to use land of the HCA, even if it if the Minister could explain why that was the case. involves interference with an easement, liberty, privilege, I do not wish to detain the House with too many right or advantage annexed to land and adversely details about the chequered history of this Government’s affecting other land. The Infrastructure Bill proposes approach to public forests and woodlands. Following to extend this power to, the shameful Public Bodies Act, which would have “land which has been vested in or acquired by the HCA”. GC 223 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 224

The effect would seem to be that the power to override wanted to make. I will therefore say just one or two easements and so on is granted to successor owners of things. In starting, I have come hotfoot from the the HCA. It is my view and fear that freemining—ancient General Synod, where we had a debate last night on rights and privileges granted to Foresters by Edward Magna Carta, which I had to read. I discovered that I—could be caught by Clause 23 because it certainly three of the clauses there are about bishops and barons falls within easement, liberty, privilege, right or advantage. bringing the Executive to account on the forests—in Compensation would be payable in appropriate those days King John wanted to make them bigger so circumstances but this is little comfort to those who that he could take more land. I now find myself here wish to protect our traditions and cultural heritage, as a Bishop among Barons and Baronesses, reflecting who work the mines and want to maintain the right on that. for future generations. I should be grateful for the I have had a number of representations on this noble Baroness’s view of the implications of this Bill area. It is an important issue for us, for the many for freemining. If the amendment were accepted and reasons that the noble Baroness laid out. It is akin to the public forests exempted from the provisions of the our green belt; we still have it but there are many Bill, the threat would fall away. incursions into it. This is about how we protect it and We are told by the Government, in their response to how we protect forestry. It is true that work was done Recommendation 27 of the Independent Panel on by my colleague James Jones, the former Bishop of Forestry, that land transactions within the public forest Liverpool, on this important area. However, we are estate are to be subject to the overriding principle that still waiting—I have asked questions on this as well they would be in the further interests of the public and engaged in discussions—for the Government to forest estate. They said: move and set up the new body that Owen Paterson “We agree with the Panel that the new body should be able to promised us some time ago. buy and sell land where this serves the core purposes of the I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s assurances, organisation and delivers public benefits. We also agree that but what is involved here is the nature of this surplus major projects and land sales should be consulted upon, but do not want to fetter the commercial freedom of the new body by land. However, if that accords with what we have been requiring it to consult on each and every proposal. One of the promised, surely this is belt and braces and makes a lot roles for Guardians might be to ensure that any significant of sense. In particular, I am attracted to Amendment 89, projects and land transactions proposed by the management which gives the assurance that that comprises the body are in line with the remit and interests of the Public Forest whole, as well as any part of, the public forest estate. Estate”. As stated in proposed new subsection (9), that, The Housing and Regeneration Act 2008, which the “comprises all the land, property, rights and liabilities”. Bill proposes to amend, is based on fundamentally That is surely in line with what we were promised and different concepts from this principle. what the Government have agreed to. If that forestry body is to be set up, that is fine—this is all in agreement 4.15 pm with that. However, in the mean time, I should certainly Government statements on this issue from the Minister like to receive some assurances from the Government and others emphasise present government policy.However, in line with the amendments before us. I am not concerned with present government policy, but rather with the exposure of the public forest estate Baroness Kramer: My Lords, first, I am sure that no to policies adverse to forestry, the implementation of discourtesy was intended to the noble Baroness, Lady which is facilitated by negligent drafting of the present Royall, over the timing of the letter that was sent. I Bill. If the public forest estate is not exempted, it cannot quite explain the sequence but I know that, in remains at risk for as long as the Government fail to trying to co-ordinate the numerous questions that legislate in accordance with the panel’s recommendations came to us following Second Reading, we tried to and the Government’s policy as stated on 31 January make sure that we had covered everybody’s questions 2013. Even if the Government were to bring in a and answered them fully, which may have delayed forestry Bill immediately, which clearly they will not, if putting our responses in the post by a day or so. this Bill were to pass unamended there would remain a Therefore, I apologise if she was concerned by that. potential conflict between the two Acts. The public sector land programme is about bringing That danger, and the uncertainty created by the Bill disused land currently owned by central government in careless government statements, can be avoided by back into better economic use, not about selling the simple expedient of excluding the public forest or building on community assets enjoyed by local estate from the effects of the Bill. That accords with communities. It is a continuation of our current government policy, it is common sense and it follows programme, where we are on track to dispose of the approach taken by the Government in respect of disused land with capacity for 100,000 homes. This property of the Crown. I realise that the noble Baroness clause is not about new policy, but merely the introduction might not be able to address all my concerns today, of efficiency into the mechanism. especially those that relate to freemining, but I would be grateful if she could write to me. Surplus land can and already does transfer to the Homes and Communities Agency, but the process is more bureaucratic than is necessary. This clause The Lord Bishop of St Albans: My Lords, an interest is simply about increasing the rate of delivery by in forestry has brought me along today. I am hugely accelerating internal government procedures. The grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, for what proposed amendments would actually slow down the she said; indeed, she made many of the points that I process by adding further bureaucracy. For that reason, GC 225 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 226

[BARONESS KRAMER] of new open spaces, allotments and amenity land, we would resist this amendment because our goal is to which over time become an important asset to the increase efficiency in this process, not to slow it down community. further. I will talk more directly about the public forest estate in response to the amendments that address this On the issue of surplus land, it is important that and which are intended to prevent the transfer of land land can transfer to, for example, the HCA while it is from the public forest estate to the Homes and still in operational use but a decision has been clearly Communities Agency. We made clear our policy on made that it will no longer be needed beyond a certain the public forests at Second Reading and again in the point. The HCA would then be able to start remediation letter that we provided to the noble Baroness, Lady works and marketing in parallel with the wind-down Royall. The forest estate is not for sale and we will not of operational activity. This minimises bureaucracy transfer the public forest estate to the Homes and and ensures that we are making best use of our land at Communities Agency. all times. Questions have arisen about the word “surplus”. There is not a definition in that sense because property- The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked about future owning departments and arm’s-length bodies are expected Governments. Future Governments have always been to review their landholdings regularly to identify potential able to make their own decisions, and this Parliament for rationalising their estates. When a landholding is could not prevent their doing so. We can give an no longer required by government, it is not just surplus absolute assurance about the position that this to our requirements and there is no hard-and-fast Government take. Were she in government, she would definition of surplus beyond this because it varies so have to make that decision on a democratic basis for greatly from department to department and use to use. herself. It is for individual departments to decide why they no In my published response to the Parliamentary longer require a piece of land. Question from the noble Baroness relating to Clause 21, I said: I assure your Lordships that it is not possible for “Clause 21 of the Infrastructure Bill is completely unconnected the Homes and Communities Agency to transfer land to the Government’s stated policy to establish a new public body from other public bodies without the consent and to hold the Public Forest Estate”.—[Official Report, 30/6/14; col. co-operation of the transferring department. The transfer WA 214.] is direct but all statutory transfer schemes to the HCA The Government have no intention of transferring must be signed by a Minister of the Crown or a land from the new body to the Homes and Communities delegated representative. Therefore, only land that the Agency, as the public forest estate is currently in use transferring public body has identified as surplus to its and not declared surplus. As such, the powers will not requirements will be transferred. This is standard be used in relation to this body and will therefore have government business and the noble Baroness will have no effect on it. been very used to this process when her party was in I also refer to our forestry and woodland policy government. There is nothing new or different about statement, published in January 2013, which built on the way in which it is being handled. the recommendations made by the independent panel As I said, the clause is about accelerating internal on forestry, chaired by the then Bishop of Liverpool. government processes to transfer surplus land so that It confirmed that the PFE will continue to benefit it can be disposed of more quickly and effectively for from public ownership. Nothing has changed. We appropriate development. It does not override existing remain committed to this and are continuing to work planning policy or community rights. The Government closely with stakeholders. fully appreciate the importance of amenity land to I believe that we shall have a discussion on the both nature and our communities. Common land is group that begins with Amendment 91A which will central to our national heritage and we value it for address some of the issues of easements. Just for the agriculture, recreation, nature conservation, landscape purposes of the issues that were raised by the noble and its historical and archaeological significance. Lord, Lord McKenzie, third-party purchasers will be able to override easements in any land sold by the Public rights of way in the country are the primary HCA, the GLA and the MDCs, the mayoral development means by which people access the countryside and corporations. That has always been clear from this engage in outdoor recreation, which in turn promotes legislation. improved health and well-being, as well as sustainable transport. Our amendment will not affect public rights of way. Normal planning procedures will apply to Lord McKenzie of Luton: I apologise for intervening protect open spaces and other amenity land. The on the Minister but I wonder if we can clear that up, as National Planning Policy Framework makes clear that it is before us. Did she say that third-party purchasers open space should not be built on unless it is surplus can override those easements? to requirements, can be replaced or the benefits outweigh the loss. Planning policies should also protect and enhance public rights of way and access. Where the Baroness Kramer: I think that a better way to express Homes and Communities Agency owns such land, it it is that where they have been overridden by the HCA, seeks to transfer it to the local authority or other the GLA and the MDC, they are sold, as it were, with community group to continue to manage the land for the override in place. I believe that that is correct; I will the community. It is also worth noting that the Homes write to the noble Lord if it is not, but that is my and Communities Agency often facilitates the creation understanding of the situation. GC 227 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 228

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful; that is to when land is identified as surplus mean that it may helpful. It is what I understood the position to be be difficult to have an all-embracing definition in the likely to be—that third party purchasers could not Bill. create those overrides. However, that leaves two issues around the forest estate, which my noble friend Lady Royall spoke about Baroness Kramer: That was the issue at dispute. My with a great passion, as indeed did the right reverend understanding is that they cannot create. I am now Prelate the Bishop of St Albans. Given the generality looking for some clarification on this so that I can of the assurances that the Minister has given, is there come back to the noble Lord with a more correct not the possibility that we could at least have something answer. I just have a note that says, “If Clause 22 goes specific in the Bill in relation to the public forest estate, ahead, they will”. I believe that we are going to address as an example of where it simply will not be transferred? that under Amendment 91A, in which case I may be That would ease the genuine concerns of many who able to give the noble Lord a more substantive answer are not happy about the broadness of this clause as it shortly. If not, I will ensure that he gets complete is drafted. Could that, at least, not be included in the clarification on this issue. Bill? We accept that there are issues around surplus On the tax issues that the noble Lord raised, tax and the processes of transfer. provision to produce a tax-neutral result will be made in secondary legislation under new Section 53B. Again, Baroness Kramer: I apologise for bobbing up constantly we can provide more detail on that than I have at my but the noble Lord will understand that I am trying to fingertips at this moment. catch information as rapidly as I can to ensure that we To return to the heart of Amendments 85B, 86, 87, do not leave him with an inaccurate picture. In terms 88 and 89, we believe that the necessary safeguards are of that sign-off to which I referred a few moments in place to ensure that land transfers only when agreed ago, if the land is surplus, it is the Minister for the by the Secretary of State and when the transferring DCLG who provides the signature in all cases. It is department has deemed the land to be surplus to its important that I share that, rather than leaving the requirements. The clause sits within the wider planning noble Lord misinformed on this issue. framework, which offers sufficient safeguards to protect any open spaces or other amenity land. For that Lord McKenzie of Luton: We need to think about reason we will resist these amendments, and I hope that. Is it the Minister for the DCLG in all cases, that what I have said provides some assurance. wherever the land was originally owned or used and On the Edward I freemining rights, we will indeed whichever department it was? follow up in writing. I confess that that is beyond my general knowledge of these issues, so this may be the Baroness Kramer: That is the understanding that most helpful way to provide that information to the has just been passed to me. noble Baroness, Lady Royall. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful for that. It is Minister for that detailed response. I accept that there news to me but it is helpful to have it. I should like to are some points on which we shall have some follow-up, press again on the issue of the public forest estate and particularly on easements. On matters of tax, the why that cannot be specifically included as an exemption particular point I sought to probe was: at the point from the operation of these clauses. I am sure the when the land goes from the HCA—or the GLA, if Minister will recognise that that would ease the very that is what it is—to a private sector developer, what is real concerns that have been raised. She may say that the basis on which it acquires that land? Is the developer those concerns are unnecessary, given the assurances thereby getting a tax break? Is the value of its land that have been provided, but notwithstanding that, uplifted or is it reduced somehow? I do not expect the there would be clarity and certainty in the Bill. What is Minister to deal with that in detail today but I would wrong with that? be grateful if there could be some follow-up on it. We accept the assurance that there will be procedures in Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I feel that at this point place to make sure that the owning department will we have given real clarity on this issue. As I say, this have to sign off on any transfer and that it would only mechanism simply makes more efficient a process that be surplus, as the Minister described. is currently in place. The assurances that stood yesterday and stand today are the assurances that will stand 4.30 pm tomorrow, and it seems to us that those are clear and Baroness Kramer: Perhaps I might make a small unequivocal. We therefore cannot see what is gained correction for the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, because by putting this into the Bill. I want to be absolutely clear on this point. It would be a Secretary of State, a Minister or somebody delegated. Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we have reached Because the Government act as a whole, I cannot the stage where it is necessary to withdraw the amendment guarantee to him that the owning department would but I cannot believe that we will not return to this necessarily provide that signature but I will look for matter at a later stage. I beg leave to withdraw the clarification. amendment.

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful and perhaps Amendment 85B withdrawn. we could have some follow-up on that as well, if necessary. I also accept that the different approaches Amendments 86 to 89 not moved. GC 229 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 230

either does not exist or is not on the list because it has Amendment 90 not at present identified land to transfer. We really do Moved by Lord McKenzie of Luton not want to exclude land because those names are not 90: Clause 21, page 24, line 4, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) on the list—we want to make sure that development and insert “after subsection (7) insert— can happen. This amendment is at odds with the aims “(7A) An instrument containing (whether alone or with other of the Bill, and for that reason we ask that the amendment provisions) regulations under section 53A(2) may not be made be withdrawn and that it be accepted that these regulations unless a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved should remain subject to the negative procedure. by a resolution of each House of Parliament. As I say, when there are genuine concerns about a (7B) An instrument containing (whether alone or with other body specified in the regulations, the negative resolution provisions) regulations under section 53B may not be made unless procedure allows a challenge to be made and a debate a draft of the instrument has been laid before and approved by a resolution of the House of Commons.”” to take place, in either House. The regulations can be challenged and dealt with in that way. In our view, the negative procedure is proportionate and in line with Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, this is a our policy aim to accelerate the pace of land disposal straightforward amendment that would require the and to remove bureaucracy. I therefore ask that this regulations specifying public bodies to be subject to amendment be withdrawn. the affirmative procedure. These provisions are focused on identifying which public bodies’ assets can be the subject of a scheme for transfer to the HCA. In other Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I think I am amendments, we have just discussed the sensitivity convinced. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. around these schemes, which should be clear. The affirmative procedure is still limited but it seems to us Amendment 90 withdrawn. that it should apply, at the very least on the first use.

Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I gather from general Clause 21 agreed. conversation that there are many arm’s-length bodies— certainly several hundred of them. A process whereby Amendment 91 not moved. adding them or subtracting them from a list would require affirmative actions in your Lordships’ House and the other place seems excessive, frankly, when the Clause 22: Easements etc affecting land whole purpose of this is to speed up the process of land disposal and ensure that appropriate developments can happen quickly. Maximising the release of surplus Amendment 91A public sector land is critical to support our ambition Moved by Baroness Kramer to reduce the deficit and, even more importantly, increase the number of homes being built. 91A: Clause 22, page 24, line 24, leave out “(8)” and insert “(8A)” We are already releasing surplus public sector land under the current public sector land programme, and have an ambition to dispose of land with the capacity Baroness Kramer: My Lords, maximising the release to build 100,000 homes. The language in the Bill lets of surplus public sector land is critical to supporting us do that better and faster, getting much needed land the Government’s ambitions to reduce the deficit, developed quickly. We already utilise the expertise of increase the number of houses being built and help to the HCA to remediate and market surplus land, and it drive economic growth. will continue to play an important role in speeding up We have introduced Clause 22 to speed up the development. The purpose of the clause is to eliminate process of land disposal and ensure that appropriate needless bureaucracy and get surplus developable land development can happen quickly.The ability to remediate to the HCA quickly. and sell surplus public sector land is critical to the An amendment specifying that the regulations about supply of much needed new homes. I think this is bodies transferring land to the HCA would have to going to address the question raised a few moments pass through the affirmative procedure would merely ago: our clause will bring the powers of purchasers of slow that whole process down again and defeat the land from the HCA, the GLA and the MDCs into line whole point of what we are attempting to do. We are with those presently enjoyed by purchasers of land cutting out a middleman, and it is important to resist from local authorities and other public bodies involved various attempts to slow this process back down again. in regeneration and development, such as urban Needing a debate in both Houses every time a new set development corporations, when overriding easements. of regulations was made or when names were added This now picks up the issue that I stumbled upon a few to a list would have the effect, frankly, of wasting minutes ago. parliamentary time. There is a process in place that The ability to override easements is often necessary allows for objections to be made if concerns are sparked to the development of a site. It is in the wider public by any particular change. interest that we support development that brings much The proposed programme is not a one-time programme needed homes and jobs. We have tabled this amendment but a continuing one, and new sites can be identified to ensure that the power can be used as intended by by departments and arm’s-length bodies. The transfer the Greater London Authority. The bulk of GLA land could come from an arm’s-length body that currently is held and managed by GLA Land and Property. GC 231 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 232

We need to ensure that it is able to use the powers as Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful to the intended, which is what the amendment will do. I beg Minister for her explanation. I think that I have got it to move. but I want to make absolutely sure. This amendment deals with the GLA situation but outside that, in the example being pursued by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I think that I if there is a disposal to a third party by the HCA with am happy with this. Do I understand that it relates just planning permission and all the constraints presumably to dealing with the GLA problem and its need to being in the contract, can the third party purchaser in operate through a taxable subsidiary? those circumstances take the benefit of overrides that have been provided by the HCA or a local authority but not create new overrides itself? That is the particular Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, while my noble issue that I am trying to get clarity on. friend is contemplating the answer to that, she wrote to me about this in her letter of 1 July. She said: Baroness Kramer: Perhaps I might write to the “The intention is for the HCA to dispose of its freehold noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on that issue because I interest on the open market”. think that I am getting myself caught up in circles, I completely understand that. She said that, which is not an appropriate way to give him the “the HCA retains a strong policy interest in what happens on its answers that he needs. land once it is sold to market”. I think that that picks up the point I raised earlier Lord Jenkin of Roding: I am full of admiration for about the need to ensure that the land is in fact used the way that my noble friend is dealing with this, for purposes consistent with public policy.She continued: having had to come to terms with it at such short “Where public land can be put to better use—say in supporting notice. Perhaps I could be included in the letter. the delivery of much-needed new homes—it will transfer to the HCA. The HCA will then typically seek to set the parameters for Amendment 91A agreed. future development on the land, by obtaining planning consent with the local authority prior to sale, and selling its land with certain conditions attached”— that is the point that I think the noble Lord, Lord Amendment 91B McKenzie, was asking about— “to ensure that the building carried out on its land is done so in Moved by Baroness Kramer line with public policy (say by specifying the number of affordable 91B: Clause 22, page 24, line 38, at end insert— homes to be built)”. “(8A) After subsection (4) insert— That all seems extremely sensible. This is not just “(5) In this section references to the Authority include a bringing land in and then saying that anyone can do company or body through which the Authority is required by anything they like with it. If it is public land already, section 34A above to carry on activities where those activities are the question is to get it into use for public purposes as carried on for a commercial purpose. quickly and efficiently as possible, but for purposes (6) Subsection (5) does not affect the application of Parts 3 consistent with public policy. That seems to be quite and 4 of Schedule 4 to the Housing and Regeneration Act right. Can the Minister confirm that her amendment 2008— is indeed intended to achieve that? (a) in relation to the acquisition of land by the Authority under this Part, or (b) in relation to land in respect of which functions of the 4.45 pm Authority relating to housing or regeneration are being or have been exercised.”” Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I am looking to make sure that I have some advice on this. However, it is my Amendment 91B agreed. understanding that local authorities and other public bodies involved in regeneration development are able to sell land to purchasers with the power of overriding Clause 22, as amended, agreed. easements. Urban development corporations are an example of that. When that legislation was drafted, Clause 23: Transfer of responsibility for local land however, the GLA did not gain that power. We believe charges to Land Registry that that was by oversight, and, if I understand it correctly, this clause will now correct that. Debate on whether Clause 23 should stand part of the Similar powers can be found in other legislation, as Bill. I have said. Local authorities have long had powers to override third party interests, as do housing action trusts, local highways authorities and urban development Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, there will be a corporations. This was true even of defunct bodies such subsequent debate in respect of Clause 24 so I will as regional development agencies, the Urban Regeneration speak generally to both clauses and pick up any further Agency—better known as English Partnerships— points in the subsequent debate. Clause 23 transfers and the Commission for New Towns. This is basically responsibility for local land charges to the Land Registry, to correct a drafting oversight in the original GLA while Clause 24 confers additional powers on the legislation and, as such, it is an important though Land Registry. Neither of these propositions can be fairly technical amendment. divorced from the parallel proposition for a new model GC 233 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 234

[LORD MCKENZIE OF LUTON] noted that there had been annual productivity gains of of a Land Registry delivery company, which is widely 2%. The Law Society expressed the view that while believed to be a step along the way to privatisation of there is merit in seeking to create a single local land the service. charge and CON29 service, most practitioners would Just yesterday the Government pulled the plug—at not regard it as a priority for the Land Registry to least for the time being and, I am bound to say, not address. It says: with good grace—by recognising that they would have “Having more consistent processes for discharging charges … to give further consideration to the complexity of could markedly improve and de-risk the process”. their proposed new business strategy, including moving Dealing with searches is just part of the conveyancing complex applications online and automating processes. process. The Law Society’s conclusion is that the research There were high levels of disagreement anyway with conducted by the Land Registry does not demonstrate the suggestion that an arm’s-length model would enable that there is a problem that needs to be resolved. operations to be more efficient and effective or that such models would have the right checks and balances It is suggested that the speed of service conducted to protect the integrity of the registry. While reaffirming by local authorities is causing a problem in the that they are moving ahead with the digital transformation, conveyancing market. This is despite a recent survey the Government have stated, indicating that the turnaround time for 96% of searches that involve only local land charges is less than 10 days, “at this time, no decision has been taken to change Land Registry’s with three-quarters being returned within five days. model”. Searches involving local land charges and CON29 While we should not be under the misapprehension have slightly less speedy performance but, as it is that the threat has gone away, we should recognise that proposed that the latter stay with local authorities, it the news, unnecessarily delayed as it is, will come as does not seem that overall search turnaround times some relief to the staff and to those who campaigned will improve. against the folly which privatisation would represent. The District Councils’Network has expressed concerns Mr John Manthorpe, a former Chief Land Registrar, at the proposed separation of land charges to be has stated in a letter: undertaken by Land Registry from CON29 searches, “The Land Registry is a successful and highly regarded department which will remain the responsibility of local authorities. of government with a 150 year history. It makes no call on the exchequer and has a 97% customer satisfaction rating … It It considers that this fragmentation creates a risk of conducts its business impartially and free from any conflicts of inconsistency, with the potential for errors and omissions. interest. It grants and guarantees title on all transactions so It says that insufficient weight has been given to the providing the security of tenure and conveyancing machinery on local knowledge that resides with local authorities, which a stable society depends and without which the property, which are still generally the originators of the data. transfer and mortgage markets could not function”. Local authorities will still incur costs in collating and I could rest my case for this clause and Clause 24 not supplying data, in maintaining a database and, presumably, remaining part of the Bill at this point. If the Government for indemnity insurance—when there is no income have to hold back on their proposed plans for the stream from search fees. It also instances that many Land Registry because they need to revisit the model local authorities have made recent investments in to deliver their new business strategy, it is difficult to digitalisation, for which no recovery is promised by see how it could possibly take on responsibility for the Land Registry. local land charges and more, largely unspecified, powers As the Local Land Charges Institute points out, the relating to that. There are some 20 million local land original intention of the Land Registry was to take charges registered, with 65,000 updates every month. over and maintain the database for local land charges There are further detailed arguments that deserve and CON29. However, having studied the proposition to be heard. For a start, the consultation on wider for over a year, it decided to abandon the idea. Therefore, powers and local land charges was flawed. It was as things stand, Clause 23 would mean a fragmented conducted by the Land Registry itself, which clearly service, with no credible alternative being offered. The had an interest in the outcome. There were concerns Council of Property Search Organisations—CoPSO— that it was overly focused on what would add value to offers the view that the sector is currently operating the Land Registry, and that it was undertaken with at well, with healthy competition. It says that the claimed least half an eye to privatisation. postcode lottery is illusory and that there is no real The Land Registry proposal is to take over the problem to fix. Moreover, it suggests that the threat to maintenance and searches of the register of local land local authority jobs could result in increased waiting charges. It argues that this is necessary because of a times for searches, with consequent detriment to the perceived lack of consistency and standardisation in housing market. the provision of local land charges. The World Bank The Local Land Charges Institute argues: that the ease of doing business survey marked the UK down perceived problems with the land charge function has on the ease of registering a business, including the been overstated; that such problems as there are can speed of registering and transferring commercial property. be resolved more simply and with less cost; that the This was also prayed in aid of the proposal. demand for the Land Registry takeover has been However, the Law Society, in its submission to the overstated; and that the Land Registry has failed to consultation, expressed the view that in recent times demonstrate a clear understanding of the processes local authorities and other providers have been producing and risks involved in the local land charge function search results in a timelier and more consistent manner and is proposing a worse service. It says that the Land and at a predictable cost. Indeed, the impact assessment Registry has failed to demonstrate how it will actually GC 235 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 236 provide the service and that the Land Registry has a self-interest if you like, but I have to say that the proposed a number of unsatisfactory business models responses to most consultations come from organisations over the past three years and now proposes to take or people with what could be called a self-interest. It over only half the service, providing less information just so happens that that self-interest means that they to customers than local authorities currently do, leaving usually know very much more about the subject than local authorities to undertake the more complex work most of us do. The fact that they have a self-interest—or, and providing a fragmented service to customers. as I would put it, a greater knowledge—certainly does The LGA expresses opposition, in particular making not mean that they are by definition wrong or that the point that the proposals will leave councils with their views should be dismissed. Certainly, the context the expense of adjusting systems, breaking existing should be recognised. contracts and paying redundancy costs. It says that over the longer term the costs to councils of compiling, 5pm checking and verifying data have not been properly We have referred to both the Local Land Charges accounted for in the analysis. Institute and the Law Society. I have also had The opposition is glaringly obvious from the representations from Liberal Democrat colleagues in Government’s own consultation: 94% of respondents local government. I know that my right honourable do not think that the Land Registry has considered all friend Don Foster has had a letter from the leader of feasible options and 95% do not support the Land his council, who happens to be a Liberal Democrat, Registry taking over the local land charge function expressing great concern about this proposal. I met from local government. It is time to think again, as the Liberal Democrat leader of Wychavon District even the Government have recognised on their delivery Council at a conference the other day. At my request, company. It is time to remove the clause from the Bill. she subsequently e-mailed me with her authority’s concerns. Wychavon District Council is Conservative- controlled and, she says, is strongly opposed to the Lord Tope: My Lords, I confess to relative ignorance proposal. She put to me the two concerns that it has: on the subject of the Land Registry, so I have been “Firstly, the Land Registry would only take over part of the trying to understand better. Naturally, I wish to support service (the Local Land Charge 1—“LLC1”) & not the further my Government, and particularly want to support my enquiries part (‘CON29’). Local Authorities would still need to noble friend the Minister, who has to reply to this. I service this part, but without the resources to do so. Secondly, the have a number of concerns, some of which the noble Land Registry have said that they would only hold information Lord, Lord McKenzie, set out very fully when making for 15 years, and information can be relevant for far longer than his points. Like him, I, too, have had representations this”. from the Local Land Charges Institute and from the Another point was the confusion caused by the other Law Society, which have made a number of points to consultation about future operating measures, to which which I am sure the Minister will reply. the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, also referred. I am Certain things increase my concern. First, of course, sure that the Minister will put very clearly on the this takes functions away from local authorities and record that, whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it centralises them. There are two things that instinctively will not be proceeded with within the lifetime of this trigger me as a localist, and I find them difficult. I Parliament, but of course she cannot bind whatever therefore need to understand better than I currently any future Parliament or Government may do. do, not just what the problem is that we are trying to I end where I began. I want to be able to support fix, but what the scale of the problem is, as the my Government and my Minister on this, but the Government see it, that makes it necessary to take more I hear about this change—albeit from people these functions away from local authorities and centralise with what has been called a self-interest—the more I them. Throughout history, the experience of centralising begin to wonder why we are doing it and why we are so does not necessarily automatically lead to greater efficiency, sure that the end result will be so much better for nor does it seem immediately to be in keeping with the users, for local people and for the efficiency of local Government’s commitment to localism. government. On a similar and related point, I have seen several times the awful phrase “postcode lottery” used with Lord Jenkin of Roding: My Lords, my noble friend reference to the current situation. I hate that phrase; if will remember that at Second Reading I raised rather we put it rather differently, so-called postcode lotteries similar anxieties that the case for this change had not mean we recognise that different factors apply in different been made. Since then, I have tried to dig a bit deeper areas and that local people—local authorities, in this to find out what lies behind it. I was intrigued by quite instance—are able to determine their priorities, their a long article in today’s Times, which I tend to read way of doing things and, for that matter, what charges with my cup of tea in bed in the morning. In the they wish to set for local services. If that is called a business section was the headline: postcode lottery then I am all in favour of it but I “Land Registry sale put out to grass as row continues over would prefer to call it real localism. Royal Mail”. My next point was raised by the noble Lord, Lord The article—I will not read it out in full—says that the McKenzie. He referred to the results of the consultation, suggestion that the Land Registry should be privatised which came out significantly against the Government’s has a long history. We have had a statement that there proposals. That has been dismissed as self-interest. In is no present intention to privatise the Land Registry; a sense, that is true; it is pretty obvious that the Local indeed, I have quoted it from some of the correspondence Land Charges Institute has an interest. You can call it from the Minister. However, what I find particularly GC 237 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 238

[LORD JENKIN OF RODING] The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and my noble intriguing—and the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, may friend Lord Tope referred to the very long Government remember this—is that it has now been revealed that response to the consultation. It is a substantial document. in answer to a Parliamentary Question in 2000, the Question 7 asks: noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine, the then Lord “Do you have any comments about the reasons to change Chancellor, stated that the Government were considering Local Land Charge services and do you see any benefits?”. privatising the Land Registry. That was the previous The answer was: Government, nearly 15 years ago. “The majority of respondents to this question felt that the The argument has rumbled on for a long time, and I reasons given in the consultation to change LLC services were not wonder where it all comes from. I cannot believe that supported by the evidence produced and that the perceived problems this has ever been part of a concerted government with the current service had been overstated. Many felt that the policy supported by the Treasury or by successive consultation did not provide sufficient information of how the proposals would work in practice and that they would not produce departments of industry. My right honourable friend the costs benefits or a centralised one stop shop”. Michael Fallon, who has now been promoted to the Ministry of Defence, is quoted in the article as saying That goes to the heart of the proposal in the Bill. I recently: repeat: there may be a case for it but it has not yet been convincingly stated, which was the point that I made “Due to the importance of the Land Registry in the effective to my noble friend at Second Reading. operation of the UK property market, we’ve concluded that we need further consideration before changing Land Registry’s set-up. I referred earlier to the reply dated 1 July that my Thus, we haven’t made a decision on this occasion”. noble friend sent me to a number of questions. She said: That echoes what my noble friend the Minister has “Government acknowledges the concerns raised in some said on previous occasions. consultation responses. It also recognises Land Registry’s experience in providing registration services and believes this ideally places it The more I probe this, the more worried I become. I to provide the local land charges service. Land Registry will may be quite wrong, and perhaps the Minister will continue to carry out extensive engagement with local authorities, correct me, but I have formed the impression that the personal search companies and key industry stakeholders”. real driving force for the privatisation proposal and, The last sentence gives one some encouragement: at now, for this present proposal to absorb the whole of last, they are listening. My noble friend Lord Tope the local Land Registry function comes from the Land referred to the Local Land Charges Institute and its Registry itself and from Mr Edward Lester, who has letter dated 12 June. Having said that it was not headed it up for some time. I would be grateful if the provided with any satisfactory answers, it stated that, Minister could confirm that that is where this proposal “the Minister has declined our invitation to meet to discuss the has come from. I am not impressed by that. My eye proposal”. was caught the other day by a Statement in the House from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, repeated in That does not inspire one with confidence. When it this House by my noble friend Lord Deighton, about asked for a meeting, the Minister’s private office—of the question of what they call, course, I do not refer to my noble friend now because she was not there—would have taken advice. The “off-payroll contracts in the public sector following the introduction advice from Edward Lister was no doubt, “No, don’t of tighter rules … when I published ‘The Review of the tax waste your time seeing these people. This policy is arrangements of public sector appointees’”. going ahead and you’ve got better things to do”. As a Lower down, it turns out that the Land Registry has Minister, one has seen responses of that sort. A wise recently been in breach of that requirement, where, Minister says, “I think we ought to see these people”. “a senior Land Registry board member was engaged off-payroll In those circumstances, I like to think that perhaps for longer than six months. As a result, a fine of £1,030,176, the that is what I would have done as a Minister. largest for an off-payroll breach so far, has been imposed on the Land Registry for breaking these rules”.—[Official Report, Commons, Since Second Reading, when I raised my anxieties 10/7/14; cols. 23-24WS.] about this matter, they have been increased. I am not at all sure that the Government will be justified in That does not inspire one with confidence. proceeding with this proposal now. I say with some I let my noble friend Lady Stowell know that I was sadness that so far they have entirely failed to convince concerned about this. I had a very full e-mail from her almost all the people involved, customers and providers, this morning, while she was still in her post at DCLG of the case for this centralisation. and before she had become Leader of the House, in As for my noble friend Lord Tope, I can say a which she set out, at some length, the circumstances curious thing: one has occasional periods of lying that underlay that decision. I would not dream of awake and last night I wondered who invented the repeating it all, but the fact of the matter is that that phrase “postcode lottery”. I raised this some years ago Statement was correct: the Land Registry has been in relation to the health service when the noble Lord, fined over £1 million for not complying with government Lord Darzi, was the Minister in the Lords answering requirements on off-payroll salaries. for the health department. I said, “If you’re going to When I look at the supporting documents published localise the health service, you’re going to get different with the Bill, I find that they are all signed by Mr Ed services in different parts of the country. Does that Lester—they are not signed by a Minister at all. The qualify as a postcode lottery?”. He said that he did not impact statement is signed by the chief executive of much like that phrase himself. I said, “If you’re going the Land Registry. One has become totally accustomed to localise, you’ve got to recognise that there will be to impact statements being signed by Ministers, and different local solutions to the problems”. To let the one wonders why this is. What is going on? press get away with condemning that all the time as a GC 239 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 240 postcode lottery makes an absolute nonsense of the Baroness Kramer: Yes. process of localisation, which I have always understood that all parties are now subscribing to. I took a full Lord McKenzie of Luton: Was that the local land part in the proceedings of the Localism Act as it went charge search or the CON29 search? through, and we all supported the principles that were behind that. In this Bill, though, we have nothing more than a substantial centralisation, a withdrawal Baroness Kramer: My understanding is that it is the of functions from local authorities to the centre. local land charge search, not the CON29 search, but What are the two arguments being put forward? we have had reports of problems of varying degrees in One is that this is all going to be digitised and therefore Scunthorpe, Erewash, Exeter and Sutton. It is not needs to be uniform, and the other is that there are confined to one particular local authority. Users of different charges in different parts of the country so this service have said in surveys that only 24% of local the charges ought to be more uniform and it would be land charge search results are returned within a day best to do that by centralising. I do not accept either of and only 50% within two to five days. I thought that I those arguments as they have been put. I hope that the had some of the numerous responses from people who Minister is going to make a better fist of convincing use the service and thought it was an incredibly good the Committee that these clauses really represent such idea to start trying to centralise it and provide some an advance in the service that will be given to customers degree of consistency; if I find them later, I will quote that we ought to swallow our doubts and accept them. them. In the mean time, I have to say that I am not very I should point out that the Land Registry’s performance happy about it. for a similar range of preliminary searches and copy register and copy document services is that over 95% 5.15 pm were returned within one day. The Land Registry, in Baroness Kramer: My Lords, I shall reply first to its central form, is exceedingly efficient. It has a flat fee the comment from my noble friend Lord Jenkin of of £3 and most queries are dealt with instantly by Roding that the Minister did not meet stakeholders. online access. I now have the number that I was That was during the consultation period. I think that looking for. I am told that 63% of users were supportive Ministers often make the decision that they should not of trying to rationalise and centralise this system. We distort a consultation by meeting with some particular are living in the 21st century and people expect to be parties and not others. Meetings have subsequently able to access information in the most efficient way, been put into the diary with both Mr Lester and BIS. and that supports the property market. If we want to As I say, this was a matter of propriety during a period increase the availability of housing, surely that has to of consultation, as many noble Lords will recognise be a service that we look at seriously, making sure that was necessary. it is as efficient as it can be. We have a problem with the local land charge In this day and age, it is crucial that public services system. At present, each of the 348 local authorities in are available online. The DVLA now processes driving England and Wales maintains its own local register, licence applications online, and I see no one calling for and they are kept in a variety of formats. Some are us to change that to a system in which in each local digital but do not use the same digital systems, while community there is a separate application for a driver’s many are still paper-based. The fees for searching the licence through the local authority. It is time for the register vary from £3 to £96. Since the rule applying local land charges system to be modernised and made here is that the local land charge service should be fit for purpose in a digital era. A single digital register provided on a cost-recovery basis over a three-year held by a single provider will reduce overheads and period, it is quite hard to understand why there is that eliminate regional variations in the speed, format and discrepancy and range of difference in pricing. Some costs of the local land charges service. The solution of the services respond in a day or so; some take more will improve turnaround times to mere minutes and than 20 days. That has led to the buyer of a property improve data accessibility for the property sector. By or someone remortgaging a property—who is, in all reducing overheads, in effect we will make sure that honesty, probably not that conscious of who their there is a lower fee for the customer, and the standardised local authority happens to be—not being able to rely process means that the fee will not change based on on an efficient service in every part of the country. It location. is, in a sense, a genuine postcode lottery if you are The poll that I cited a moment ago, conducted by sitting in the position of the person trying to buy a Ipsos MORI, showed that 63% of customers found property or seeking to remortgage one. I suggest that the Land Registry proposal “appealing” or “very we have a serious problem there. appealing”. Customers want to benefit from a standardised To give the Committee an example, Camden Council service. They want faster turnaround times, reduced is taking 38 days to process searches. You can imagine running costs and lower fees. These proposals will what that is doing in a process where house prices make it quicker and easier for people to buy a property, move while people are trying to get mortgage approvals remortgage their home and even, in many cases, start and are often in chains of buyers. It is clearly jeopardising up a business. people’s ability to buy a house. We have had other The Land Registry has a proven track record in reports— providing digitised information to the public. I say that to provide reassurance that this is a body capable Lord McKenzie of Luton: I apologise; did the Minister of putting together the system that we require of it. It say that it was 38 days for Camden? safeguards almost 24 million registered titles, has a GC 241 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 242

[BARONESS KRAMER] available today for the benefit of the user. Noble customer satisfaction rate of 98% and already processes Lords will be aware that to some degree a whole around 22 million applications electronically annually. industry has grown up which negotiates the current It has extensive experience of digitising registers and search process for individuals who want to buy properties, a central position in the conveyancing process, as the because they currently find that process so cumbersome single largest source of property information. That is and complex. Surely transferring that to an online why it makes it right for this body to take over the system, which the ordinary user can use with ease and local land charges service. clarity, is the direction in which we absolutely have History shows that this kind of step change to go. to a modern, standardised service, with the benefits Noble Lords made a number of comments about that brings to the public, simply cannot happen if the the off-payroll breach. Adequate response has been service remains split between 348 local authorities. It given to those comments in the various letters that will require a single digital register held by a single have been provided. However, the sort of determination provider to get that reduction in overheads and eliminate to go to a centralised and digitised Land Registry the endless variations in the format—never mind in system is not the work of one individual or a particular the costs—of the local land charges service. We of chief executive of the Land Registry, but part of a course accept that there is a role for local knowledge; much broader process of bringing real efficiency into that must be maintained. Therefore, local authorities government. The new world of digitisation offers us will continue to be responsible for collecting and updating all kinds of opportunities. We have to use them when all the information in the register. they are available and when we can carry them out YourLordships have asked whether we are removing effectively. Therefore this is not the whim or ambition a valuable source of revenue for local authorities by, as of one individual but a consistent pattern that one it were, leaving with them an element of cost. We are finds throughout government to improve implementation, in detailed discussions because we are concerned that delivery and efficiency. local authorities should not bear an undue burden by The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, raised the question providing the input that only local knowledge can of potential job losses at local authorities. I should provide. Local authorities would be responsible for point out that on average just over two people work on collecting and updating the information in the register, this at a local level, but many of them carry out other and obviously that should not be an undue burden on roles and will have some continuing role in providing them. However, if they came to us and said, “But we’re the input data. The consequences from a job perspective losing a source of revenue”, we would point out that therefore cannot be ruled out absolutely but are unlikely the rules have made it absolutely clear that this is not to be dramatic in the circumstances. I do not think meant to be a revenue-raising service; it is a cost-recovery that anybody in this Room, under any circumstances, service. Therefore, the argument that there is a loss of would wish us to preserve inefficiency to protect jobs. revenue really does not hold water, as surplus revenue However, in this instance, the consequences are not is not the purpose of the current pricing system. likely to be significant. Some noble Lords asked about CON29 searches. I I believe that I have covered most of the issues that can explain that the Land Registry is examining the have been raised. If I have not, I will be glad to follow feasibility and developing the policy of providing CON29. up and do so in writing. This clause is an important However, it is important to be clear that for a property move forward that will assist people who are attempting transaction, customers already go to the Land Registry to purchase property, to get a mortgage and to remortgage for searches, so providing local land charges searches property. That group deserves to get the best service through the Land Registry portal does not add another that we can provide it with. I therefore hope that your step for them. Over time, the CON29 searches may be Lordships will agree that the clause should stand part added to those channels but our intention is to do that of the Bill. in a responsible way, as an incremental phased approach. The Land Registry is well placed to bring about the Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I thank the benefits envisaged. For a property transaction, customers Minister for her response. I am disappointed but not already go to the Land Registry and, as I said, it has a surprised by the position taken. I was not sure whether proven track record. While local authorities are focused she was clear that there is going to be no change to the on a whole range of activities, property information Land Registry’s model during the course of this and serving the conveyancing market is the sole purpose Parliament. The press release that we had yesterday of the Land Registry and its specialised expertise. just says that no decision has been taken to change the The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, raised the question Land Registry’s model; that means that it could be of whether this is a step towards privatisation. Noble changed next month, the month after or indeed tomorrow. Lords will be aware that a consultation on the ownership I wonder if she might just clarify that point. structure of the Land Registry was begun in January and completed in March, and the Government have 5.30 pm provided their consultation and see no reason to change Baroness Kramer: I feel very comfortable in replying the current ownership arrangements. I want to be that the Government’s response on this topic makes it clear on that point. The process we are proposing clear that we are not going to change the Land Registry’s here—to bring new efficiency into the Land Registry model at this time or—I think that I can say this with system—is part of moving into the efficiency of the complete confidence—for the rest of this Parliament. 21st century by taking advantage of digital technology, It is not the intention of this Government to change which has not historically been available but which is the model. GC 243 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 244

Lord McKenzie of Luton: I am grateful for that. I The users of the service, including the Law Society, think that I heard the words “during this Parliament” the conveyancing firms and the search firms, are not and I understand that that is as far as the Minister supportive of this approach. From the Government’s can go. press release when they moved back from changing the model, we know that they recognised that they This is not about preserving inefficiency; it is about have embarked on complex applications online and working out the best way to create efficiency. The automating processes. They are going through that Minister talked about services remaining split as they journey in respect of their existing business, without are at the moment. That is precisely what is going to adding local land charges and the interface with around happen under these proposals; there will be a separation 350 authorities to it. of the local land charges and the CON29. We have heard that a feasibility study is going to be done. We I accept that there should be a move towards have to address the possibility of bringing in CON29 digitisation. Many local authorities have done it and in a responsible and incremental way. When I heard many are in the process of doing it. Some have started the phrase “responsible and incremental”, I immediately that process and I understand from the impact assessment thought of universal credit. that, if they have to pull the plug, there will not be any The reality is that the Land Registry has looked at recompense for the investment that they have made in this for three years. Its original concept was to have trying to do it. Can the Minister give any assurance on both bits of the service in—was it not?—but it has that? The real fear in all this is that this was considered decided that it does not know how to deal with CON29 in the context of a change of model. One of the and, therefore, to move ahead with the other bits changes would have quite readily led to privatisation. I without knowing or indeed caring what is going to think that there are some other background papers happen to the separated bit left with local authorities. which clearly indicate that this was the path that some That seems to be foolhardy, at the very least. in the Land Registry were moving along. It seems to me that that has coloured the assessment of much of The Minister made the point that this should not be what has gone on. revenue-generating. I accept the point that people involved in local land registries may have other duties— The point made about the impact assessment and they may spend time on electoral registration, for the consultation being undertaken by the Land example—but that does not mean that the loss of a fee Registry or the Chief Land Registrar is exactly right. does not have a financial consequence. If you are Surely, if we were going to contemplate and revisit using only one-third of a person’s time, you still cannot opportunities or proposals such as this, there should get rid of one-third of a person, although you can cut be an independent assessment on which this is based. hours down in some circumstances, so the contribution Ultimately, whether they agree with it or not, people to the overhead is going to be less. There is a potential should have confidence that no ulterior motive was ramification there. driving what was going on. With regard to timing, it would be interesting to As ever, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, was trying to know how aware the people who buy, sell or mortgage be helpful to his Government. I had to get my mind a house are of how much of the conveyancing time is around the Land Registry as did the noble Lord. He actually taken up with the search process. Certainly made reference to 15 years but I understand that the the Law Society’s convention is that it is just a part of Government consultation may knock that on the head the total conveyancing process, which on average takes and that that will not now be a cut-off point. Some of between six and eight weeks. The Minister quoted the the fears that his colleagues in local government expressed amount of time that Camden council takes, and I am are real fears. The fear that the loss of local knowledge sure that there are areas where people are outside the may be dismissed as being not important is a real norm, but the Government’s own impact assessment issue. shows the general speed with which searches are returned. I am not sure that we will have a meeting of minds I well understand the concern and growing anxiety this afternoon. I am sure that we will have another of the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, the more that he discussion about it at a later stage. There is a substantial considered this matter. He raised the issue of the head of steam opposed to these proposals, as I am £1 million fine that was imposed. I do not necessarily sure the Minister is aware. Perhaps we could hang on want to dig into that except that to say that for an to the point that the Law Society, as well as others, is organisation that is looking to digitalise, modernise saying that this is not the issue that needs to be and so on, it does not seem to bode well that it does addressed. If we are worried about conveyancing issues not have the management systems in place to avoid and the time that that takes, we should look elsewhere these catastrophes. to the process and not be looking at this. It acknowledges It is right that the previous Government looked at that processing times have speeded up and that in the prospect of privatising the Land Registry. My recent times there has been greater standardisation of noble friend Lord Wills was the Minister involved at response. There has been a reduction in fees and the the time; I spoke to him about it, and he said that it Government’s impact assessment has recognised the was knocked back pretty sharply. One of the driving productivity gains that have been made and passed on forces behind that idea is that, frankly, it could be a to customers. Local land charges is not the problem nice little earner. Who knows what that database is that is creating concerns about conveyancing. worth? There are suggestions of £1 billion-plus, which, in an election year, obviously would not go amiss. Clause 23 agreed. GC 245 Infrastructure Bill [HL][LORDS] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 246

Schedule 4: Transfer of responsibility for local land This clause substitutes for certain services, charges to Land Registry “consultancy or advisory services about land or other property in England and Wales or elsewhere … information services about land or other property … or … services relating to documents or Amendment 92 registers which relate to land or other property in England and Moved by Baroness Kramer Wales”. If that were carried through, would it not be within 92: Schedule 4, page 65, line 24, after “5” insert “or 6 or the remit of the Land Registry to act on it without another relevant enactment” further legislative processes? I see that in the responses to the consultation, the challenge was that the consultation Baroness Kramer: My Lords, there are two minor did not provide sufficient detail of the services that the and technical amendments to paragraph 3 of Schedule 4. Land Registry intends to undertake under its proposed These are to ensure that following the transfer of wider powers. The Government’s response was that responsibility for the local land charges system to the the part of the consultation on wider powers related to Land Registry, the local land charges register will the principle of Land Registry powers being extended include all local land charges that may be registered in to enable it to provide new services. Frankly, what is in the future, whether under Sections 5 or 6 of the Local the Bill does not seem to correspond with that. What Land Charges Act 1975 or other relevant legislation. I is provided for there is an expansion of the types of do not think that I need say a great deal in support of services that may be provided. these amendments because the tracking-though of In any event, in the response to the delivery company these documents is fairly technical and will provide a consultation the Government made it clear that they clear trail. It will obviously be necessary that legislation consider there to be, should ensure that all future local land charges can be “benefits in creating an arm’s length service delivery company to included in the register. The purpose of these two … modernise”, amendments is simply to clarify the position under existing registration. In other words, they are to make the Land Registry and, sure that everything which needs to be on the register “to support new opportunities for the business to play a wider actually gets on to the register, so I hope that your role in the property market”. Lordships will be able to support Amendments 92 and There is clearly a linkage between the commercial 93. I beg to move. model and the additional powers. However, as it is agreed that the service delivery company model needs Amendment 92 agreed. further consideration and there is a commitment to consult again if it is taken forward, should this not apply to Clause 24 so that it can be removed from the Amendment 93 Bill, at least for the time being, even if it has to be reinstated in due course? Moved by Baroness Kramer Either this provision is simply widening the services 93: Schedule 4, page 65, line 36, at end insert “; that can be provided or it is dealing with the principle “relevant enactment” means a provision which is made by that is tied up with the service company delivery or under an Act and which provides for the registration model which the Government have taken away to of a charge or other matter as a local land charge.” consider further. The only safe thing in those circumstances seems to be for that clause not to stand part of the Amendment 93 agreed. Bill. If there are going to be changes to the model in due course, there will need to be further legislation in Schedule 4, as amended, agreed. any event. If this is tied to that, it needs to be dealt with at that same time. Clause 24: Conferral of additional powers on Land Registry 5.45 pm Baroness Kramer: My Lords, Clause 24 gives wider Debate on whether Clause 24 should stand part of the powers to the Land Registry to enable it to play a Bill. greater role in the property sector. The Government’s goal is to make the conveyancing process quicker, Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, we have had a cheaper and easier to complete. As we have said before, substantive debate on the Government’s proposals for the Land Registry is the single largest source of property the Land Registry and local land charges being removed information. It has a proven track record of digitisation from the Bill. We covered much of the ground in of registers, 98% customer satisfaction and a record of relation to Clause 24 in that same debate. Clause 24 reducing fees, with almost 22 million applications seeks to confer additional powers on the Land Registry. processed electronically last year. Most importantly, it It was acknowledged in the Government’s response to sits at the heart of the conveyancing process. the wider powers consultation that the focus was on At present, the Land Registry is limited in the services the principles of extending the powers of the Land it can offer, not by what is in the public interest but by Registry. However, Clause 24 would appear to be more its statutory powers. This clause corrects that. Giving than that and if it were retained, would it not be wider powers to the Land Registry will enable it to sufficient for the Land Registry to act without any provide a range of property information services for further legislative approval? businesses and citizens, helping to manage records, GC 247 Infrastructure Bill [HL][15 JULY 2014] Infrastructure Bill [HL] GC 248 keep track of markets and identify business opportunities. assessment would be made on market need and LR would engage The needs of the customers and stakeholders of the with stakeholders and, where appropriate, consult on any significant Land Registry are constantly changing, and allowing initiatives”? it to meet those changing needs must surely benefit In a sense, is the Minister saying that these provisions both the property market and the overall economy. are subject to that response? The Land Registry’s ability to engage in new services is not a new concept. The Land Registration Act 2002 Baroness Kramer: Is this a question about whether already enables it to provide consultancy and advisory we are intending to change the commercial model of services related to the registration of land. It is already the Land Registry? Clearly we are not. If that is an using those powers to provide services such as international answer to the question asked by noble Lord, Lord consultancy on land registration and a range of add-value McKenzie, then I can give that assurance. I think that services relating to land registration information. The I made it clear in describing the kinds of services that new services would be provided on a cost-recovery the Land Registry would seek to offer that those basis, and the Land Registry would consider undertaking services would be in response to market need. Obviously new services and activities only where that could bring that requires extensive engagement with the various savings, efficiencies and other benefits to the property stakeholders and others who would use the services. It market. This is part of the current move to make sure seems to me that that is the kind of partnership that we maximise the benefit of the information that is relationship, as one could almost call it, that there available within government entities in order to benefit would be. The Land Registry would therefore consult residents and, in the case of the Land Registry, particularly on any major change precisely because its goal is to those involved in property arrangements. make sure that it provides the most appropriate kind I also want to make it clear that this is not a of response. necessary mechanism for the digitisation that we have The sorts of factors that would be considered before been discussing or for providing services to taxpayers. a new service was introduced would include things The process that we have been describing—the core such as the impact on the property market, any change here—is not dependent on any sort of commercial competition issues, and capability and capacity issues. model, but we think it is rational to permit these At this point in time, it is difficult to detail those additional powers. Given the breadth and depth of its proposals because we are in a dynamic environment. expertise, the Government want to allow the Land Therefore, this is essentially an enabling provision but, Registry to broaden its activities to provide that kind I think, an entirely appropriate one. of additional information as part of the infrastructure which others in the property market can then build on Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the Minister for and innovate from. This is relatively straightforward that. I do not want to make a meal of this but perhaps and very much in keeping with the whole direction in I may ask for a final clarification. Are we saying that which access to information, transparency and various these services are distinct from any change in the Land kinds of support are now being provided by many Registry’s model—that there might be a change in the parts of government. It recognises that the Land Registry Land Registry’s model but these services would still go is very much at the heart of conveyancing and central ahead on some basis or another—or that there would to the whole property industry, and that therefore it be no change to the model and these services might has the potential to benefit the sector by expanding still be commenced? the services that it offers, based on needs as they arise and as they change. Baroness Kramer: Perhaps I can be clear. The whole Therefore, there is no sinister motive behind this. issue of the model, by which I assume the noble Lord As I said, it is very much in keeping with modern means ownership, is an entirely separate question. The practice. It is very important that this clause stands two are not interlinked. part of the Bill so that we can gain the greatest benefits for the property market, for the economy and Lord McKenzie of Luton: I take the model to be in for the many members of our communities who use the sense of not only the corporate structure but the that market. separation of the office of the chief registrar and what was termed in the consultation as a delivery company. Lord McKenzie of Luton: I thank the Minister for her reply but perhaps I may just be clear. Does she consider that what is set down in Clause 24 is sufficient Baroness Kramer: I have an assurance that they are for the Land Registry to commence some of these not linked. services, having done its internal assessment? Obviously it is not going to embark on something which it Clause 24 agreed. believes will make a profit. Where does that leave the comment in the Government’s response that the Land Lord Popat (Con): My Lords, I think that this may Registry, be a convenient time for the Committee to adjourn. “would consider undertaking new services and activities only where it could bring savings, efficiencies and other benefits … An Committee adjourned at 5.54 pm.

WS 53 Written Statements[15 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 54

The Commission’s report offers a high level assessment Written Statements of the long term options for providing further runway capacity in the south east of England. It shortlists Tuesday 15 July 2014 three options: two at Heathrow, one at Gatwick and identifies one option for further consideration in the Armed Forces: Reserve Forces inner Thames Estuary. Statement Promoters of shortlisted options have now provided more detailed proposals to the Commission. This The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry autumn, the Commission expects to decide whether or of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My right hon. not to shortlist an Estuary option, and will then Friend the Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip undertake formal consultation on the shortlisted options. Hammond) has made the following Written Ministerial As we have said before, it will be for the Government Statement. I have today placed in the Library of the of the day to respond to the Airports Commission’s House a copy of a report into the condition of the recommendations once it publishes its final report in Reserves and delivery of the FR20 programme, compiled summer 2015. by the Future Reserves 2020 External Scrutiny Team. This House will know that the Defence Reform Act In the meantime, the Government, the Civil Aviation 2014 includes a statutory obligation from next year to Authority (CAA) and the aviation industry are already commission and publish such a report. I have taken making progress in responding to the Commission’s the decision to fulfil this obligation early. short and medium-term recommendations for making better use of our existing airport capacity. Sir Howard I am grateful for the work of the Team. I will take Davies wrote to the Chancellor of the Exchequer on some short time to consider the report’s findings and 26 November 2013 setting out the Commission’s recommendations and we will provide a full response recommendations for improving airport surface access to the Team in due course. and the Government has set out its initial response to these recommendations in the National Infrastructure Aviation: Airports Commission Plan, published in December 2013. Since then, good Statement progress has been made in moving work forward on these surface access recommendations, which is important in helping to secure vital connections to emerging The Minister of State, Department for Transport markets. (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Right Honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin), For example, the Government has committed has made the following Ministerial Statement: £50 million towards a full redevelopment of the railway The Government established the Airports Commission station at Gatwick Airport. This is intended to deliver in September 2012 to advise on the need for and a significantly enhanced experience to both airport location of future runway capacity. In December 2013, and regional transport users and we are working with the Commission produced a comprehensive interim stakeholders to deliver this as soon as possible. The report that sets out the challenges we face in order to Government expects Gatwick Airport to make a maintain the UK’s status as an international hub for significant contribution to this project. Since December aviation. The Commission’s report sets out a clear 2013, work has been underway with Gatwick Airport argument that continuing to rely solely on our existing and Network Rail on outline plans for the new station. airport infrastructure will have an increasingly detrimental Over the course of 2014, the Government will work effect on the national economy and our prospects for with both parties to deliver these plans and reach a growth. commercial agreement on funding. The Commission’s report sets out the work it plans The Commission’s report recommended development to undertake before the publication of its final report of a broad ‘Optimisation Strategy’ to improve the in 2015, but also identifies a range of measures which efficiency of UK airports and airspace at congested can be taken now in order to improve the efficiency airports, balanced against the needs of local communities. and effectiveness of our aviation industry in the short As recommended by the Commission, I have asked the to medium term. Today, I am providing an update on Chief Executive of the CAA to establish an industry the progress we have made in addressing these more focused Senior Delivery Group (SDG) to develop and immediate recommendations. However, let me first where appropriate lead delivery of this strategy. The address the Commission’s approach and our position new group has now been established and is contributing on its long term recommendations. to a range of different measures that aim to balance The Government welcomes the open and inclusive operational benefits, the timelines for delivery, community approach that Sir Howard Davies and his fellow impacts and environmental improvements. Where changes Commissioners have taken on the first phase of their are wholly within the responsibility of industry, we work. We also recognise the scale and depth of the expect them to deliver. Where Government has regulatory Commission’s analytical programme, which has responsibility or oversight, it will continue to discharge significantly improved our understanding of the aviation this, for example by undertaking further consideration landscape and the UK’s capacity needs. The Commission’s and consultation in the light of views and priorities strong analytical approach has taken account of the expressed in the SDG. Some of the measures considered extent of aviation demand and the UK’s future by the SDG form part of the national Future Airspace requirements for international and domestic connectivity. Strategy (FAS) which is expected to deliver annual WS 55 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 56 benefits of over £150m to the aviation industry and This Government has continued to demonstrate its environment by 2020 and more than £2bn worth of support for airports outside the south east. In Budget cumulative benefits by 2030. 2014, the Chancellor announced that our Regional Progress is being made on delivering the benefits of Air Connectivity Fund will be doubled to £20m per FAS. Earlier this year a new arrival system was introduced year and extended by a further three years up to allowing aircraft to absorb arrival delays more efficiently March 2019. and reduce airborne holding by approximately 20%. The fund will continue to support Public Service Preparations are also well advanced to implement Obligations (PSOs) to maintain existing air links to Time Based Separations from next year to increase London where there is a risk of regional connectivity resilience by allowing aircraft to fly closer in strong being lost. In June, the Government announced a PSO wind conditions. In addition, funding from the on the Dundee-Stansted route and the Government Government’s Transport Systems Catapult has enabled will be providing £2.85 million over two years to the implementation of real time departure information support the route. Loganair has been operating two sharing at airports like Stansted and London City, and daily return flights under this PSO agreement since 1 over 20 UK airports are expected to adopt the solution July 2014. We are also in discussions with Cornwall by the end of next year. More information on progress Council on a PSO agreement for a Newquay-London can be found in the first report of the SDG’s work air link from October 2014. which is being published today and can be found at The Chancellor also announced in the Budget that www.caa.co.uk/cap1206 the scope of the funding is extended to include Start-up In relation to the Commission’s recommendation aid for new routes from airports handling fewer than for an Independent Aviation Noise Authority, the five million passengers per annum. Officials in my Government believes that it would be more appropriate Department are developing guidance to clarify how to consider the role for such a body alongside the we expect to implement EU aviation State Aid guidelines Commission’s final recommendations on long term on Start -up Aid. I intend to publish this guidance in capacity.Similarly, we believe that any further Government the autumn. decisions on using the runway designated for departures In the UK, we sometimes take for granted the (e.g. enhanced TEAM) and for a trial of early morning benefits which come to us from having a well-connected schedule smoothing at Heathrow should also be nation and a strong aviation sector. The work of Sir considered at that point and in the context of the Howard Davies and the Airports Commission is crucial Commission’s recommendations on long term capacity. if we are to retain these benefits. Publication of the The Government is committed to ensuring regulatory Commission’s final report in summer 2015 will be an stability at the southeast airports while the Commission important event not just for the aviation industry, but pursues its important work. With this in mind, having for the national economy more generally. also taken account of other relevant factors, the Government is confirming today that we will be Boundary Commission for England maintaining the existing restrictions on night flights at Statement Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted airports for a further three years until October 2017, as well as extending the ban on rare movements made by older noisier The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord types of aircraft. This decision, which is published in a Faulks) (Con): My right honourable friend the Lord separate document, will help give certainty around the Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris night noise environment for those living near the Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial airports, as well as ensuring operational capacity at Statement: these airports is not affected pending decisions on any “I should like to inform the House that I have made new airport capacity in light of the Commission’s final the following appointment under Schedule 1 to the report. Parliamentary Constituencies Act 1986: The Government is conscious of the potential concerns The Honourable Mr Justice Sales has been of those living near the sites that have been shortlisted re-appointed as Deputy Chair of the Boundary for future runway development. However, the Government Commission for England, effective until 31 May is also mindful that introducing inappropriate measures 2019.” too early has the potential to increase uncertainty and create other negative outcomes. The Airports Commission recommended against a discretionary generalised blight Chief Coroner: Annual Report scheme at this stage for similar reasons. Statement The Government has been working with the promoters of the shortlisted schemes to determine when measures The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord might be put in place to address concerns and what Faulks) (Con): My right honourable friend the Minister these measures could consist of. I have written to of State for Justice and Civil Liberties (Simon Hughes) the scheme promoters outlining the Government’s has made the following Written Ministerial Statement: expectations and asking them to ensure they actively “Today I am delighted to be laying and publishing involve and inform local communities. The Government the first annual report to the Lord Chancellor, of the will continue to work closely with scheme promoters Chief Coroner, His Honour Judge Peter Thornton on this issue and the Airports Commission has committed QC, under section 36 of the Coroners and Justice Act to a process that is transparent, fair and independent. 2009 (‘the 2009 Act’). WS 57 Written Statements[15 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 58

The report covers the period from implementation services for the benefit of businesses have been identified. of the 2009 Act’s coroner reforms on 25 July 2013 to The exploitation of these new opportunities is best 30 June 2014 and it is the first summary of how these served by a new owner within the competitive tension reforms are working in practice. The Chief Coroner imposed by the market. sets out: the implementation of the coroner reforms; Department for International his work to increase the consistency of coroner services: in particular his work on training and Development: Annual Report and Accounts providing guidance to coroners; merger of coroner Statement areas; coroner appointments; coroners’ changing role in local leadership and management; the Baroness Northover (LD): My Rt Hon Friend, the investigation and inquest processes; timeliness of Secretary of State for International Development (Justine investigations and prevention of future death Greening) has made the following statement: reports; and I have today published and laid before Parliament, his use of his statutory powers and duties under the Department for International Development’s Annual the 2009 Act. Report and Accounts for the year 2013-14. I am very grateful to Judge Thornton not only for The report provides information on DFID’s activities his report, but also for his sterling work preparing for during 2013-14 in line with the International Development the implementation of the reforms a year ago. It is (Reporting and Transparency) Act 2006 and includes encouraging to see the considerable progress that he a full set of accounts for 2013-14. The report will be has made in this first year in improving coroner services placed in the Libraries of the House of Commons and and the experience of those who come into contact House of Lords for the reference of Members and with them across England and Wales. copies will be made available in the Vote Office and I would also like to take this opportunity to pay Printed Paper Office. It is also available online at tribute to coroners for their commitment to change www.gov.uk. and the way in which they have adapted to the requirements of the new system. I must also thank the individuals and bereavement support organisations Diplomatic Missions and International who help the Government and the Chief Coroner to Organisations: Unpaid Congestion understand the concerns of families and others affected Charges by coroner investigations. Statement Copies of the report will be available in the Vote Office and in the Printed Paper Office. The document The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities will also be available online, at: https://www.gov.uk/ and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth government/publications/chief-coroners-annual- Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Honourable Friend, report-2013-to-2014 .” the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds), has Constructionline made the following written Ministerial statement: Statement The value of unpaid Congestion Charge debt incurred by diplomatic missions and international organisations in London since its introduction in February 2003 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department until 31 December 2013 as advised by Transport for for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger London was £75,364,182. The table below shows those of Leckie) (Con): My Rt hon Friend the Minister of diplomatic missions and international organisations State for Business and Energy (Michael Fallon) has with outstanding fines of £100,000 or more. today made the following statement. NUMBER OF TOTAL I can announce to the House our plans for the COUNTRY FINES OUTSTANDING divestment of public sector ownership of the Constructionline scheme by a competitive sale process. Embassy of the 70,637 £8,172,245 Details of the sale procedure will be published in the United States of Official Journal of the European Union in due course. America Embassy of Japan 48,520 £5,623,040 Since 1998, the Constructionline scheme has operated Embassy of the 44,145 £5,123,450 within public sector ownership and reduced the Russian administrative burden from business, in particular SMEs, Federation in their pre-qualification for tenders. The Constructionline High Commission 39,604 £4,552,745 scheme has also provided the client-base with verified of the Federal Republic of data about suppliers which has brought greater certainty Nigeria to the procurement process. Embassy of the 34,051 £3,928,680 Constructionline is, however, now no longer the Federal Republic sole supplier of pre-qualification assistance and there of Germany is a developing commercial market place for such Office of the High 28,069 £3,316,770 services. A number of potential opportunities which Commissioner for India would allow the scheme to grow and to offer additional WS 59 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 60

NUMBER OF TOTAL NUMBER OF TOTAL COUNTRY FINES OUTSTANDING COUNTRY FINES OUTSTANDING

Embassy of the 23,170 £2,725,275 Botswana High 3,998 £ 468,605 Republic of Commission Poland Embassy of the 4,271 £ 467,985 Office of the High 21,156 £2,488,300 Republic of Commissioner for Zimbabwe Ghana Embassy of the 4,144 £ 466,965 Embassy of the 20,307 £2,282,505 Federal Republic of Sudan Democratic Embassy of the 15,757 £1,868,295 Republic of Republic of Ethiopia Kazakhstan High Commission 4,016 £ 450,285 Kenya High 16,210 £1,844,695 for the Republic of Commission Namibia Embassy of 13,995 £1,622,925 Kingdom of 3,959 £ 442,695 France Swaziland High Commission Embassy of Spain 13,691 £1,607,095 High Commission 3,773 £ 430,385 Embassy of the 11,828 £1,413,145 for the Republic of People’s Republic Mozambique of China Embassy of 3,484 £ 408,430 High Commission 12,230 £1,377,930 Austria for the United Republic of Embassy of the 3,569 £ 406,060 Tanzania Republic of Equatorial Guinea Embassy of 11,522 £1,341,630 Romania Mauritius High 3,449 £ 393,895 Commission Embassy of 10,960 £1,282,487 Greece Embassy of the 3,335 £ 383,710 Czech Republic Embassy of 10,968 £1,275,605 Ukraine Malta High 3,087 £ 360,225 Commission Embassy of the 10,504 £1,248,525 Republic of Korea Embassy of the 3,139 £ 354,325 Republic of Côte High Commission 10,383 £1,239,420 d’Ivoire for the Islamic Republic of Embassy of 2,960 £ 346,220 Pakistan Belgium South African 9,686 £1,099,420 High Commission 3,050 £ 343,585 High Commission of the Kingdom of Lesotho Embassy of the 8,857 £1,048,180 Republic of Cuba Uganda High 2,896 £ 335,015 Commission People’s 9,170 £1,038,645 Democratic Embassy of the 2,806 £ 333,825 Republic of Republic of Algeria Lithuania Sierra Leone High 8,960 £1,005,090 Embassy of the 2,799 £ 330,875 Commission Islamic Republic of Afghanistan High Commission 7,287 £ 858,720 for the Republic of Royal Danish 2,603 £ 306,825 Cyprus Embassy Embassy of 7,326 £ 855,195 Embassy of the 2,656 £ 304,655 Hungary Socialist Republic of Vietnam Embassy of the 6,171 £ 707,015 Republic of Embassy of the 2,516 £ 294,400 Bulgaria Republic of Liberia Embassy of the 5,998 £ 695,560 Republic of Jamaican High 2,165 £ 249,285 Yemen Commission High Commission 6,007 £ 689,095 Embassy of the 2,222 £ 245,185 for the Republic of Republic of Zambia Guinea Embassy of the 5,227 £ 605,670 Embassy of the 2,073 £ 212,630 Republic of Arab Republic of Belarus Egypt Embassy of the 5,165 £ 598,810 Embassy of the 1,756 £ 208,910 Slovak Republic Democratic High Commission 4,828 £ 549,855 Republic of the for the Republic of Congo Cameroon Embassy of 1,730 £ 207,275 High Commission 4,239 £ 489,195 Portugal of the Republic of Embassy of 1,719 £ 200,640 Malawi Finland WS 61 Written Statements[15 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 62

NUMBER OF TOTAL process of reopening its embassy in the UK, and Syria COUNTRY FINES OUTSTANDING – which is not currently represented in the UK. We have therefore been unable to pursue these debts. Embassy of the 1,670 £ 194,950 Three missions are responsible for just over half of the Republic of Latvia remainder. We shall continue to urge those with NNDR Embassy of the 1,755 £ 194,565 Democratic debt to pay their dues. People’s Republic Missions listed below owed over £10,000 in respect of Korea of NNDR. Embassy of 1,557 £ 182,360 Luxembourg Embassy of the People’s Republic of China £146,564 Royal Embassy of 1,633 £ 174,470 Embassy of the Republic of Côte d’Ivoire £96,258 Saudi Arabia High Commission for the People’s Republic of £92,499 Embassy of the 1,528 £ 169,065 Bangladesh Republic of Sierra Leone High Commission £57,477 Turkey Embassy of the Republic of Lithuania £38,703 High Commission 1,399 £ 161,375 for Antigua & Embassy of the Republic of the Sudan £26,137 Barbuda Embassy of the Republic of Korea £22,749 Embassy of the 1,238 £ 147,560 Embassy of the Republic of Liberia £24,749 Republic of Embassy of Ukraine £20,911 Slovenia Embassy of the Republic of Albania £15,554 Embassy of 1,192 £ 139,955 Embassy of the Republic of Zimbabwe £14,053 Tunisia Embassy of the Federal Democratic Republic £10,988 High Commission 1,079 £ 129,505 of Ethiopia of Sri Lanka Embassy of the 984 £ 117,500 Republic of Figures for previous years are available in my written Estonia statement to the House on 11 July 2013, Official Embassy of the 1,001 £ 117,310 Report, column 32WS. Dominican Republic Embassy of the 936 £ 107,465 Diplomatic Missions and International State of Eritrea Organisations: Unpaid Parking Fines Figures for previous years are available in my written Statement statement to the House on 11 July 2013, Official Report, column 32WS. The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Honourable Friend, Diplomatic Missions and International the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Foreign Organisations: Unpaid Non-Domestic and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds), has Rates made the following written Ministerial statement: Statement In 2013, 5662 unpaid parking fines incurred by Diplomatic Missions and International Organisations The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities in the United Kingdom were brought to our attention and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth by councils. These totalled £541,599. Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Honourable Friend, The Foreign and Commonwealth Office has held the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Foreign face-to-face meetings with a number of missions about and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds), has outstanding parking fine debt. In addition, in April made the following written Ministerial statement: this year we wrote to diplomatic missions and international The majority of diplomatic missions in the United organisations concerned giving them the opportunity Kingdom pay the National Non-Domestic Rates to either pay their outstanding fines or appeal against (NNDR) due from them. Diplomatic missions are them if they considered that the fines had been issued obliged to pay only 6% of the total NNDR value of incorrectly. their offices. This represents payment for specific services Subsequent payments (including amounts waived such as street cleaning and street lighting. by councils) totalled £197,423. There remains a total Representations by the Protocol Directorate of the of £344,176 in unpaid fines for 2013. Foreign and Commonwealth Office to missions in The table below details those Diplomatic Missions 2014 led to the settlement of outstanding debts by and International Organisations that have outstanding Kuwait, Maldives, Nepal, Rwanda, Saudi Arabia and fines totalling £1000 or more, as of 27 June 2014. Sri Lanka - amongst others. Diplomatic Mission/ Amount of Outstanding Fines As at 30 June 2014, the total amount of outstanding International Organisation (excluding congestion charge) £ NNDR payments owed by foreign diplomatic missions as advised by the Valuation Office Agency is £726,076, High Commission for the 74,557 an increase of 7% over the 2012 figure, as reported in Federal Republic of Nigeria my 2013 WMS (£674,110). However, £72,137 of this Royal Embassy of Saudi 30,690 outstanding debt is owed by Iran – which is in the Arabia WS 63 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 64

Diplomatic Mission/ Amount of Outstanding Fines Diplomatic Mission/ Amount of Outstanding Fines International Organisation (excluding congestion charge) £ International Organisation (excluding congestion charge) £

High Commission for the 22,700 Embassy of the Republic of 1,665 Republic of Zambia South Sudan Embassy of the Republic of 14,115 South African High 1,627 Côte d’Ivoire Commission Embassy of the Republic of 13,375 High Commission of the 1,547 Uzbekistan People’s Republic of Bangladesh Embassy of the Republic of 11,180 Liberia Embassy of the Federal 1,470 Democratic Republic of Malaysian High 10,370 Ethiopia Commission Embassy of the State of 1,450 Embassy of the Democratic 10,320 Libya People’s Republic of Korea Embassy of the People’s 1,380 Embassy of the State of 10,115 Republic of China Qatar Embassy of Ukraine 1,365 Embassy of the Republic of 9,150 Embassy of Brazil 1,250 Iraq Embassy of the Russian 1,185 Embassy of the Sultanate of 7,095 Federation Oman Embassy of the Democratic 1,115 Embassy of the Republic of 7,050 Republic of Congo the Sudan Embassy of the United 1,075 Embassy of France 6,130 States of America Embassy of the Islamic 5,485 Embassy of Italy 1,062 Republic of Afghanistan Embassy of the Republic of 5,370 Kazakhstan Figures for previous years are available in my written Embassy of the Republic of 4,800 statement to the House on 11 July 2013, Official Equatorial Guinea Report, column 32WS. Sierra Leone High 4,525 Commission High Commission for the 4,415 Diplomatic Immunity: Serious Offences Islamic Republic of Statement Pakistan Office of the High 4,085 Commissioner for Ghana The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities Embassy of Greece 3,510 and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Embassy of Tunisia 3,405 Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): My Honourable Friend, Kenya High Commission 3,392 the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for Foreign Embassy of the Arab 3,327 and Commonwealth Affairs (Mark Simmonds), has Republic of Egypt made the following written Ministerial statement: Embassy of Georgia 3,140 In 2013, 14 serious and significant offences allegedly Embassy of Romania 2,975 committed by people entitled to diplomatic immunity Embassy of the People’s 2,835 in the United Kingdom were drawn to the attention of Democratic Republic of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office by Diplomatic Algeria Protection Group of the Metropolitan Police. Eight of Embassy of the Republic of 2,820 Angola these were driving-related. We define serious offences as those which could, in certain circumstances, carry a Embassy of the Kingdom of 2,745 Morocco penalty of 12 months imprisonment or more. Also Embassy of the Hashemite 2,620 included are drink-driving and driving without insurance. Kingdom of Jordan Some 21,500 people are entitled to diplomatic immunity Embassy of the Republic of 2,520 in the United Kingdom and the majority of diplomats Azerbaijan abide by UK law. The number of alleged serious Embassy of the Republic of 2,370 crimes committed by members of the diplomatic Bulgaria community in the UK is proportionately low. Embassy of the Republic of 2,190 Yemen Under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations High Commission for the 2,155 1961, those entitled to immunity are expected to obey Republic of Mozambique the law. The FCO does not tolerate foreign diplomats Embassy of the Republic of 2,095 breaking the law. Lithuania We take all allegations of illegal activity seriously. Office of the High 2,085 When instances of alleged criminal conduct are brought Commissioner for India to our attention by the police, we ask the relevant Embassy of the Federal 2,037 foreign government to waive diplomatic immunity Republic of Germany where appropriate. For the most serious offences, and Embassy of the Republic of 2,030 when a relevant waiver has not been granted, we seek Indonesia the immediate withdrawal of the diplomat. WS 65 Written Statements[15 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 66

Alleged serious and significant offences reported to Electronic Tagging the FCO in 2013 are listed below. Statement

Driving a vehicle reported as lost or stolen and without insurance Sierra Leone 1 The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Driving whilst under the influence of alcohol and without insurance Faulks) (Con): My right honourable friend the Lord El Salvador 1 Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial Driving under the influence of alcohol Statement: Saudi Arabia 2 “I can today announce that the Ministry of Justice Belarus 1 will be awarding contracts to four companies for delivery Macedonia 1 of the next generation of electronic monitoring services. Kuwait 1 This follows a rigorous competitive process and is a Zambia 1 critical milestone in the programme to introduce the Sexual Assault new arrangements. Zambia 1 Contracts will be awarded to Airbus Defence and Domestic Rape Space, Capita, Steatite, and Telefonica, who will work Pakistan 1 together to introduce the most advanced tracking Child Abduction technology in the world. Pakistan 1 Capita will manage the overall service under a Actual Bodily Harm six-year contract, with Airbus providing satellite-mapping Cameroon 1 and Telefonica supplying the network under three-year Zambia 1 contracts. Public Order Offence The new tags will be supplied by the British company, Kuwait 1 Steatite, and will be a significant improvement on the Figures for previous years are available in my written tags currently in use, exploiting the latest technology statement to the House on 11 July 2013, Official to locate and track subjects. Monitoring the movements Report, column 32WS. of dangerous and repeat offenders will be vital in cutting crime and creating a safer society with fewer victims. ECOFIN We are confident that the new contracts will facilitate Statement the creation of a vibrant market in electronic monitoring, encouraging innovation and allowing us to take full The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord advantage of new and emerging technology. Deighton) (Con): My right honourable friend the Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Nicky Morgan) has today As well as improvements in technology, the new made the following Written Ministerial Statement. contracts offer better value for the taxpayer. Once A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs fully established in the second and third years of Council was held in Brussels on 8 July 2014. Ministers operations, we expect the new contracts to deliver discussed the following items: average annual savings of £20m relative to the previous contracts with G4S and Serco. The contracts will also Level 2 legislation on bank contributions under Bank provide us with far greater oversight over costs and Recovery and Resolution Directive and the Single Resolution charging than previously, with direct access to suppliers’ Mechanism systems and extensive audit rights. The Commission briefed the Council on the We will begin using the new tags by the end of the preparation of implementing legislation that will determine year.” the contributions to be paid by banks to resolution funds established under the Directive on Bank Recovery and Resolution (BRRD) and the Regulation on the Single Resolution Mechanism (SRM). Executive Agencies: Business Plans Statement Presentation of the Italian Presidency Work Programme The incoming Italian Presidency presented its work programme for economic and financial affairs, and the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Council adopted a statement on economic growth and for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De reform. Mauley) (Con): My Hon Friend the Parliamentary Review of the EU2020 Strategy Under Secretary of State (George Eustice) has today Council held an initial discussion as part of a made the following statement. mid-term review of the Europe2020 Strategy. The Business Plans for the following Agencies and Savings taxation: update on negotiations with third their key ministerial performance measures have been countries published today. Business Plans are available on line at the Agencies websites. Following agreement on the amended savings taxation directive, the Commission updated the Council on Animal Health Veterinary Laboratory Agency, http:// third country negotiations on the directive between www.defra.gov.uk/ahvla/ the EU and Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Andorra, Monaco Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture and San Marino. Science, http://cefas.defra.gov.uk/ WS 67 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 68

Food and Environment Research Agency, http:// fire and rescue authorities the opportunity to increase fera.defra.gov.uk/ efficiency and target audit and, if necessary,enforcement Rural Payments Agency, http://rpa.defra.gov.uk/rpa/ action on higher risk premises index.nsf/home a modern and flexible fire and rescue workforce Veterinary Medicines Directorate, http:// that will see an increase in the proportion of on-call www.vmd.defra.gov.uk/ firefighters enabled by an attractive, modern employment I have placed copies of the key ministerial performance offer,with the right support and incentives for employers. measures in the libraries of the House. As highlighted in ‘Facing the Future’ if the number of on-call firefighters increased by just 10% nationally, this would deliver savings of up to £123 million Fire and Rescue Services encouraging greater collaboration between fire and Statement local authorities, and between fire, police and ambulance services to deliver better outcomes for the public The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): My right hon the need for better and more sharing of services Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and including senior staff between fire and rescue authorities Local Government (Eric Pickles) has made the following and other organisations to drive efficiencies Written Ministerial Statement. a more joined up approach to procurement. Government The Fire and Rescue National Framework for England, has already published research undertaken in partnership revised in 2012, defined the overall strategic priorities with the Chief Fire Officers Association, which – as for fire and rescue authorities. These priorities are to highlighted in ‘Facing the Future’ – shows that fire assess the full range of foreseeable fire and rescue and rescue authorities could make at least £18 million related risks their areas face; make provision for prevention of savings simply by buying smarter, together. and protection activities and respond to incidents appropriately; work in partnership with their communities Since ‘Facing the Future’ was published, this success and a wide range of partners locally and nationally to story has continued with the total number of fires and deliver their service; and be accountable to communities other incidents attended in England continuing to fall. for the service they provide. Calls are now 46 per cent lower than ten years ago. The Government is firmly of the belief that fire and The Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004 requires the rescue authorities must seize the opportunity to transform Secretary of State to report every 2 years on fire and themselves in line with this changing environment. rescue authorities’ compliance with the National Framework. The report was published on 3 July, and To support fire and rescue authorities in driving the government was pleased to report a picture of full efficiencies and transformation change, the Government compliance. has provided a £75 million Fire Transformation Fund Compliance with the Framework demonstrates that for 2015/2016 on a bid for basis. the government’s high level expectations are being The level of interest shown in the Transformation fully met. Despite this excellent news, the public rightly Fund, and the growing evidence of fire and rescue expects fire and rescue authorities to continue to strive authorities working collaboratively with other emergency for excellence, and to demonstrate the best possible services, has demonstrated the real progress that has value for money. Sir Ken Knight, in his independent been made in the sector since ‘Facing the Future’ was review ‘Facing the Future’ identified a number of published. ways in which fire and rescue authorities could make improvements and savings – up to almost £200 million To further support transformation in the fire and in total – without compromising the quality of frontline rescue sector the Department intends to commission services. an independent review of the conditions of service for The Government welcomed ’Facing the Future’ all fire and rescue staff and the way in which they are and I take this opportunity to thank Sir Ken for negotiated and decided. starting the debate on the challenges and opportunities Firefighters are willing to put their lives on the line facing fire and rescue authorities. We will seek to build every day and they deserve to work in an environment on Sir Ken’s findings by focussing on: where expenditure is properly focused on front line fire prevention and protection. We are clear that prevention and protection and on front line response. fire prevention and protection is the front line for To achieve this, fire and rescue authorities must review the fire sector. It will remain the number one how they operate and how they deliver, and must priority. We will support fire and rescue authorities embrace the many opportunities for change they have. in their efforts to reach and better protect those Sir Ken Knight highlighted a number of challenges – most at risk from fire, working in partnership with from the need for more collaboration between fire and other public sector bodies and local organisations, rescue authorities and the wider sector, to making the and, where appropriate, utilising relevant data best use of on call firefighters, to achieving the most held within government. We welcome the recent cost efficient procurement. This statement makes clear introduction of Primary Authority for fire safety, our intention to work with the sector to meet these which allows businesses – both large and small - to challenges, and by doing so ensure that fire and rescue benefit from greater consistency and assurance on authorities continue to deliver the very best service to regulatory compliance advice, and, which offers the public in the years to come. WS 69 Written Statements[15 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 70

Gangmasters Licensing Authority: Annual to customers whilst also managing the additional demands Report and Accounts of introducing a new regulatory framework and establishing a new organisation. Statement A copy of the report will be placed in the libraries of both Houses. Copies will also be available in the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office, as well as Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My hon online at http://judicialconduct.judiciary.gov.uk/ Friend the Parliamentary Under Secretary of State for documents/jcio_annual_report_2013_-2014.pdf .” Modern Slavery and Organised Crime (Karen Bradley) has today made the following Written Ministerial Statement: Lower Thames Crossing The 2013-14 Annual Report and Accounts for the Statement Gangmasters Licensing Authority is being laid before the House today and published on www.gov.uk. Copies will be available in the Vote Office. The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Right Honourable friend, the Secretary of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin), Independent Police Complaints has made the following Ministerial Statement: Commission: Annual Report In May 2013 the Government consulted on options Statement for a new road crossing of the Lower Thames between Essex and Kent to the east of London. In December The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home 2013 I announced Government’s decision to discard Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): My rt hon one of the options and that I was obtaining technical Friend the Minister of State for Policing and Criminal advice on points raised during consultation for the Justice (Damian Green) has today made the following two remaining location options: A (near to the site of Written Ministerial Statement: the existing crossing) and C (a new link connecting the I am pleased to announce that today my hon. A2/M2 with the A13 and M25). Friend the Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury and I I am today publishing the government’s response to are publishing the annual report of the Independent the consultation, referencing the technical advice and Police Complaints Commission (IPCC). Copies of the outlining the next steps. report have been laid before the House and will be The May 2013 consultation invited views on: available in the Vote Office. the need for a crossing; This is the tenth Annual Report from the IPCC. where to locate a new crossing; and The report covers the work of the IPCC during 2013/2014 and includes a section on the discharge of their the type of crossing, whether by a bridge or tunnel. responsibilities in respect of Her Majesty’s Revenue The response reflected a broad range of views. and Customs. Most of those who replied to the consultation agreed that congestion at the existing Dartford crossing and resilience of the surrounding road network were a Judicial Conduct Investigations Office: problem. There was no consensus on how to address Annual Report these issues. Statement A number of respondents made the point that the Dartford free flow charging scheme (Dart Charge, the The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord remote payment system to replace the booths) would Faulks) (Con): My right honourable friend the Lord reduce congestion. Some suggested that this could Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris remove the need for a new crossing altogether, while Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial others believe it would be premature to take a decision Statement: until the full benefits are known. “With the concurrence of the Lord Chief Justice, I Dart Charge will be introduced from October 2014 will today publish the first Annual Report of the and is expected to improve driving conditions on the Judicial Conduct Investigations Office (JCIO). The existing crossing. However, by the middle of the next JCIO provides support to the Lord Chief Justice and decade, capacity will be exceeded so that journey times myself in our joint responsibility for the system of become more unreliable and the surrounding road judicial complaints and discipline. The JCIO assumed networks seriously congested. this responsibility from the Office for Judicial Complaints As part of the M25 orbital route around London, (OJC) on 1 October 2013. This report therefore covers the Dartford Crossing is a crucial part of the country’s the performance of both the OJC and the JCIO during strategic road network in the South East of England. the period in question. More particularly, the adjacent localities are currently Over the past year the JCIO received over 2,000 less prosperous than comparable areas but have the complaints and 574 written enquiries, providing a first vision and capacity to continue to undertake large substantive response within 15 working days in 94% of scale development. all cases and providing regular monthly updates to all There are ambitious plans for new homes and jobs parties in 95% of cases. I am pleased to note that the across Essex, Kent, Medway, Southend and Thurrock. OJC & JCIO continued to provide this excellent service The Chancellor recently signalled Government’s support WS 71 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 72 for these plans by announcing the creation of Ebbsfleet Network Rail’s West of Exeter route resilience study Garden City in Kent. Up to £200m of funding will be reflects the Government’s commitment to delivering made available as improved infrastructure is vital to world class transport infrastructure in the South West. the prospects for making this happen. It will be treated as a material input for Network Rail’s A new crossing is a vital part of our aspirations for long term planning process and will be incorporated a better future both locally and nationally by providing in the Western Route Study, a draft of which will be vital links for businesses and citizens within the area, published for consultation later in 2014. with the rest of the country and further afield to It is imperative that this work leads to improvements Europe. Our focus must be to identify where and how to the resilience of the railways in the south west that to deliver that new crossing. ensure there is no repeat of the disruption we saw We obtained technical advice on particular issues earlier this year. raised by consultees about the alternate locations for a I expect to make a further statement in the autumn new crossing. This included possible air quality impacts, regarding the West of Exeter Route Resilience study potential mitigation of environmental impacts, additional and our next steps. investment likely to be needed on the surrounding road network, and how the two locations could serve the ambitious development plans. The advice has given Smoking: Children in Private Vehicles a greater understanding of the potential impacts of a Statement new crossing at each location, which now need to be considered in more detail. We will now develop and appraise route options at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department both locations (options A and C) in order to identify a of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): My hon Friend the proposed solution. We will observe the actual effects Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Dart Charge once it is introduced and work with of Health (Jane Ellison) has made the following written local government, the South East Local Enterprise ministerial statement. Partnership, businesses and other key parties to better The Government has today published Smoking in understand aspirations for growth and implications private vehicles carrying children - consultation on proposed for the road network. regulations to be made under the Children and Families By undertaking more detailed work on route options Act 2014. at both locations, we will identify solutions that best Parliament has voted in favour of legislation that meet the aspirations of Government and stakeholders, gives Ministers powers to bring forward regulations to whilst demonstrating value for money. By taking this make private vehicles carrying children smoke-free. approach we will not delay the opening of a new The Government is proceeding with the introduction crossing which we currently estimate to be 2025, if of regulations and is seeking views on draft regulations publicly funded. before they are made. Under the proposed regulations, existing smoke-free Railways: Infrastructure legislation as set out in the Health Act 2006 will be extended, so that it would be an offence to: Statement smoke in a private vehicle with someone under age 18 present, and The Minister of State, Department for Transport fail to prevent smoking in a private vehicle with (Baroness Kramer) (LD): My Right Honourable friend, someone under age 18 present. the Secretary of State for Transport (Patrick McLoughlin), has made the following Ministerial Statement: The proposed regulations will not apply to anyone driving alone in a private vehicle. Earlier this year, I commissioned Network Rail to Exposure to second-hand smoke is a serious health undertake a study to identify options for providing a hazard, especially to children. Every time someone resilient rail route west of Exeter. breathes in second-hand smoke, they breathe in over Network Rail has now provided me with this study 4,000 chemicals. Many are highly toxic and more than which is available on Network Rail’s website at: 50 are known to cause cancer. The only way to provide www.networkrail.co.uk/ effective protection is to prevent people breathing in WestofExeterRouteResilienceStudy.pdf second-hand smoke in the first place. The World Health The study considers the options below; Organization found that second-hand smoke is a real and substantial threat to child health, causing a variety Option 1 Base Case of adverse health effects including increased susceptibility Option 2 Strengthening the existing railway to lower respiratory tract infections such as pneumonia Option 3 Alternative Route A - the former London & South and bronchitis, worsening of asthma, middle ear disease, Western Railway route from Exeter to Plymouth and decreased lung function. Children from socio- via Okehampton economically disadvantaged backgrounds are generally Option 4 Alternative Route B - constructing a modern double track railway on the alignment of the more heavily exposed to second-hand smoke than former Teign Valley branch line from Exeter to other children. Newton Abbot The consultation will run for six weeks until 27 August Option 5 Alternative Route C (C1 – C5) - five alternative 2014. I would encourage all those with an interest to direct routes would provide a new line between give their views on the draft regulations that would prohibit Exeter and Newton Abbot smoking in private vehicles carrying children. WS 73 Written Statements[15 JULY 2014] Written Statements WS 74

Smoke-free legislation is a devolved matter and brought me fresh insight into how our criminal justice these regulations would apply to England only. The agencies serve some of the most vulnerable members regulation-making powers allow for Welsh Ministers of the public. We will do more to make sure that their to introduce regulations and we are liaising with the interests are put first. Welsh Government to coordinate our approaches. In this year’s plan, I have identified three key priorities Smoking in private vehicles carrying children - to continue the transformation that we began last consultation on proposed regulations to be made under year. I have put improving the experience of victims the Children and Families Act 2014 has been placed in and witnesses at the heart of this plan. I want to the Library. Copies are available to Members of the digitise the criminal justice system so that we can House of Commons from the Vote Office and the streamline processes and I want cases to be dealt with House of Lords from the Printed Paper Office. at the appropriate level and in a timely manner. These changes are particularly important in the magistrates’ and Crown Courts where better ways of working will Transforming the Criminal Justice System make the system more efficient and effective. Statement In addition, we will improve the way the criminal justice system deals with specific crimes that require The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord an enhanced response, specifically: sexual violence, Faulks) (Con): My right honourable friend the Lord domestic violence and abuse, hate crime, modern slavery Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Chris and cyber crime. Grayling) has made the following Written Ministerial Statement: The Criminal Justice Board, comprising senior leaders “I will today publish the Transforming the Criminal from across the criminal justice system, will oversee Justice System - Strategy and Action Plan Implementation the implementation of this plan. We will develop and Update. The plan sets out the progress we have made sustain a high performing, efficient and effective criminal since publishing the first version of this plan on 28 June justice system that benefits victims and witnesses. 2013. Copies of the paper will be available in the Vote Since publishing last year’s plan, I have met a large Office and in the Printed Paper Office. The document number of victims of crime, and worked closely with will also be available online, at https://www.gov.uk/ the Victims’ Commissioner, who I appointed to give government/publications/transforming-the-criminal- victims a voice at the heart of Government. This has justice-system-strategy-and-action-plan .”

WA 111 Written Answers[15 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 112 Written Answers Bovine Tuberculosis Question Tuesday 15 July 2014 Asked by Lord Hylton To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many separate contractors were employed in (1) Somerset, and (2) Gloucestershire in the recent badger culls; Access to Work Programme and how many people were actively engaged in Question culling in each county. [HL689] Asked by Baroness Thomas of Winchester The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government when their for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De forthcoming review of Access to Work will be Mauley) (Con): During the pilot badger culls of 2013, completed; and what its purpose is. [HL888] the number of contractors employed in Somerset was 107, and 95 in Gloucestershire. As set out in the licences issued by Natural England The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department to each area, the licensees were required to submit for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): Access to details of the persons they wished to be authorised to Work is an important part of the employment support take or kill badgers. As such, a list of 107 such persons we provide for disabled people who need additional was provided for West Somerset and 95 provided for help to take up and remain in employment. I want to West Goucestershire. How many of these contractors build on the success of this programme, which is why were deployed or actively engaged in culling operations the Minister of State for Disabled People has said that was and remains an operational matter for the licensees we will look into Access to Work to focus on how we and, as such, this information is not available. can support more disabled people within the resources available and further improve the service we offer to Doctors: Tax Allowances customers. We will set out further details shortly, which Question will include timescales for taking this work forward. Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff To ask Her Majesty’s Government why tax relief is not available for essential professional expenses Borders: Personal Records such as registration, defence fees and continued Question professional development incurred, or for unpaid professional work undertaken, by a doctor in receipt Asked by Lord Marlesford of a National Health Service pension. [HL863] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the total cumulative cost to public funds to date of The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord the introduction of the e-borders system in the Deighton) (Con): Some of an employee’s professional United Kingdom; and when they expect the system expenses may qualify for tax relief against the earnings to be fully operational. [HL825] from that employment. However an individual cannot set expenses against their other sources of income such as a pension. This is the case even where the individual continues to do voluntary unpaid work in a The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home connected field. Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The Home Office is currently unable to confirm the total cumulative cost to public funds to date of the e-borders system, Ferries: Safety but we will be able to do this once the binding arbitration Question following the termination of the contract with Raytheon Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein Systems Limited is complete. The work of e-borders has been absorbed into the To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light Border Systems Programme. By the end of this Parliament, of the Sewol ferry disaster in South Korea, whether Border Systems will: they will reconsider plans to scrap a number of • Develop replacement primary border security maritime safety regulations applying to roll-on roll-off systems passenger vessels which were introduced following the sinking of the Herald of Free Enterprise in • Deliver exit checks 1987. [HL949] • Improve resilience of all current business critical systems The Minister of State, Department for Transport • Increase Advance Passenger Information (Baroness Kramer) (LD): The Maritime and Coastguard coverage Agency (MCA) is satisfied that the measures contained • Complete implementation of second generation in the regulations proposed for revocation have been e-Gates. superseded by more modern and effective measures, WA 113 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 114 including improved stability standards, and would not campaign, to raise awareness of modern slavery. The cause a deterioration of safety requirements. In addition, NSPCC will be given funding of up to £50,000 for one there is close oversight of the UK ferry industry by year to host the helpline. We have engaged NSPCC by MCA Marine Surveyors to ensure that the circumstances means of a formal Grant Agreement, not a Contract, leading to such an accident, such as the Sewol, would which will be managed using standard Home Office be extremely unlikely on a ferry on the UK flag. grant terms and conditions in accordance with the The MCA is currently consulting on their proposal principles of Managing Public Money. On this occasion, to revoke two sets of maritime safety regulations no other organisations were invited to submit delivery applying to roll-on roll-off passenger vessels which proposals. were introduced following the sinking of the Herald of The helpline will be established by the end of July Free Enterprise in 1987. That consultation will end on 2014. We will work with a number of non-governmental 10 August 2014. organisations, prior to the launch of the helpline, to It would be inappropriate to comment on whether ensure that callers to the helpline have access to a the MCA will reconsider the proposal until that range of organisations that can provide additional consultation has ended and they have analysed all help, advice and support. responses. Our longer term requirements for a helpline will be considered as part of the National Referral Mechanism review, which will conclude later this year. Homosexuality Question Iraq Committee of Inquiry Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Asked by Lord Lester of Herne Hill the Written Answer by Earl Howe on 25 June To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the (WA 160–61) concerning reparative or conversion report of the Chilcot inquiry is likely to be published therapy on homosexual men and women, whether before the next General Election. [HL682] they will ensure that no such treatment will be available through the National Health Service or Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): The Inquiry is any other taxpayer-funded organisation. [HL748] independent of Government, and the timing of the delivery of its report to the Prime Minister is a matter for the Inquiry. Sir John Chilcot said in May that it The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department was the Inquiry’s intention to do so as soon as possible. of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): This Government does Government is doing everything it can to ensure this is not believe that being lesbian, gay or bisexual is an possible. illness to be treated or cured. We are therefore strongly against the practice of so called “reparative”or “conversion” therapy. Both the Department and NHS England have Israel made it clear that monies from the public purse should Question not be used to fund such therapy. Asked by Baroness Tonge To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Israeli Human Trafficking government concerning the destruction of homes Questions in the West Bank belonging to people who have no Asked by Baroness Doocey connection with the recent kidnappings of Israeli students. [HL752] To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many organisations they invited to tender for the human The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities trafficking hotline to be launched later this month and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth by the NSPCC. [HL801] Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con): We have raised the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what annual number of raids on houses with Israeli authorities as budget the NSPCC will receive to run the human part of our broader discussions. On 23 June the Secretary trafficking hotline to be launched later this for State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my month. [HL802] right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, (Yorks) To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they (Mr Hague), said it is vital that all security operations will publish the terms of reference for the contract are conducted with due care and proportionate use of to provide the human trafficking hotline. [HL803] force. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many non-governmental organisations they consulted prior Land to approaching the NSPCC to run a human trafficking Question hotline. [HL804] Asked by Lord Rooker To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home latest estimate of the proportion of land in England Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): We are working designated as (1) green belt, (2) areas of outstanding with the NSPCC to pilot a Modern Slavery Helpline natural beauty, (3) National Parks, and (4) urban or as part of a wider communications and marketing developed. [HL865] WA 115 Written Answers[15 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 116

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department or civil society are invited to attend meetings of the for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Modern Slavery Stakeholders Forum; and what Mauley) (Con): 1) Around 13% of England was designated funding arrangements are made for them to as Green Belt in 2012/13. attend. [HL761] 2) There are 33 Areas of Outstanding Natural To ask Her Majesty’s Government when was the Beauty (AONB) designations wholly within England, last meeting of the Modern Slavery Stakeholders along with the Wye Valley which spans the English- Forum, how many public officials attended, how Welsh border. AONB designation covers approximately many attendees were from the non-statutory sector, 15% of the land area of England. and what were the proportions of public and private 3) There are 10 National Parks in England sector representation. [HL762] covering approximately 9% of the land area. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many 4) According to the Land Cover Map 2007, produced Modern Slavery Stakeholders Forum meetings have by the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology in 2011, taken place since April 2013; and whether they will around 9% of England is classed as built-up (including place in the Library of the House the minutes of gardens). those meetings. [HL763] To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the purpose and value of the Modern Slavery Stakeholders Legal Aid Scheme Forum (1) to the Home Office, and (2) to the Question non-statutory sector and non-governmental Asked by Lord Beecham organisations involved; and when and why it was originally established. [HL764] To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of reductions in funding to legal aid and advice, what steps they are taking to review the number of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home cases now being conducted by litigants in person. Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The Modern [HL869] Slavery Stakeholder Forum was set up in February 2014 and has met three times. Its precursor, the Joint Strategic Group, was set up in early 2013 and also met The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord three times. The Modern Slavery Stakeholder Forum Faulks) (Con): We are closely monitoring the impact provides an opportunity for the Home Office to engage of the legal aid changes. The number of family with partners, understand what is happening on the cases showing self representing parties is published in front-line, and develop policy collaboratively. Non- Courts Statistics Quarterly (www.gov.uk/government/ Governmental attendees have the opportunity to engage collections/court-statistics-quarterly). with officials and Ministers, and to influence policy We are working towards publishing data on self making. representation in civil cases more widely and will The minutes of these meetings are made available include this in future publications. to all attendees and are public documents available to Litigants in person have always been a feature of anyone who requests them. However, it is not considered the justice system. appropriate to place the minutes of each meeting in Judges are used to helping persons with no legal Library of the House. representation, including explaining procedures and The invite list for these meetings is subject to regular what is expected of them. We have taken steps to help review and attendance varies depending on the availability people who either want or have to represent themselves of those invited and the topics for discussion. At the in court, including publishing a revised guide for separating last meeting of 10 June 2014, 16 public officials attended parents and increased training for judges. The link to which included officials from the Home Office, other the guide is: government departments, law enforcement agencies http://hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/ and the devolved administrations. 20 representatives GetLeaflet.do?court_leaflets_id=2756 of non-governmental organisations were invited of whom 15 attended. Separate meetings are held with private sector representatives. Modern Slavery Stakeholders Forum No advisors or experts, paid for by public funds, are ordinarily invited to the stakeholder forum meetings. Questions Asked by Lord Alton of Liverpool NATO To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Question public officials are invited to attend meetings of the Modern Slavery Stakeholders Forum. [HL759] Asked by The Marquess of Lothian To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light advisers or experts paid for by public funds are of the NATO Baltic air policing mission, what invited to attend meetings of the Modern Slavery future British armed forces deployments are planned Stakeholders Forum. [HL760] to reaffirm the United Kingdom’s commitment to To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many the collective security of NATO member states. representatives of non-governmental organisations [HL536] WA 117 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 118

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Pension Funds of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): As a leading Question member of NATO, the UK continues to play a central role in NATO reaffirming our constant commitment Asked by Lord Empey to collective defence and to reassure our Eastern Allies To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the following the recent events in Ukraine. total value of United Kingdom pension funds. The four RAF Typhoon aircraft deployed to Lithuania [HL980] in support of NATO’s peacetime Baltic Air Policing mission are expected to return at the end of August The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department and the E3D Sentry flights in Polish airspace will for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud) (Con): All information continue until at least the end of the year. is published within the TPR Corporate Plan 2014-2017, There are at present no plans to extend this on page 18. commitment further, as future mission rotations are http://www.thepensionsregulator.gov.uk/docs/ filled by Allies for the foreseeable future. However, we corporate-plan-2014-2017.pdf keep the situation under constant review and any This table shows the total assets held within pension potential future UK participation would be dictated funds governed by The Pensions Regulator (TPR), by the regional situation and NATO requirements. broken down by the four main types of private work-based The UK has also committed to participate in a pension products where TPR’s powers apply. number of exercises in the Baltic Region (including Exercise STEADFAST JAVELIN, Exercise BALTOPS and Exercise RAMSTEIN GUARD) which demonstrates Self-harm our commitment to NATO, collective defence and Question reassuring our Eastern Allies. Asked by Baroness Kennedy of Cradley To ask Her Majesty’s Government what they are Nuclear Weapons doing to support those, in particular teenagers, who Question are self-harming or at risk of self-harming. [HL780] Asked by Lord Taylor of Warwick The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): Spotting the signs of response to the Trident Commission’s concluding mental health problems early in children and young report on United Kingdom nuclear weapons people is essential to prevent problems from escalating policy. [HL773] and continuing into adulthood. On 25 March the Minister of State for Care and Support (Norman Lamb) launched MindEd, an The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry interactive e-learning programme on mental health of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): Recognising designed to help any adult working with children the value of informed debate, the Government notes and young people. Funded by the department, the with interest this contribution to the debate on the learning and resources provided by the MindEd e-portal important issues surrounding the UK’s nuclear deterrent are designed to extend the skills and knowledge of policy and posture. National Health Service clinicians and professionals such as teachers, social workers, counsellors and supervisors working in a range of educational and Passports youth settings. Question The Child and Adolescent Mental Health Service Asked by Lord Marlesford (CAMHS) is there to support children of school age with mental health problems, including those who are To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they found to be self-harming. plan to introduce routine electronic scanning of On 16 June 2014, the Department for Education passports of passengers departing the United issued advice for school staff on mental health and Kingdom; and when they expect to have this system behaviour. This new advice links to existing advice on completed. [HL826] behaviour and discipline, which indicates that schools should consider whether continuing disruptive behaviour The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home arises from unmet mental health needs. Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach) (Con): The Government The advice will help schools identify and support is committed to reintroducing exit checks. By April pupils with an unmet mental health condition. It will 2015, comprehensive exit checks will apply on scheduled, give teachers the confidence to: commercial air, sea and rail routes. differentiate between poor behaviour linked to We are working collaboratively with carriers and potential mental health problems and poor port operators to identify the least burdensome way of behaviour which cannot be explained in this way; delivering exit checks—we aim to use existing identify those with less severe problems at an early arrangements, including Advance Passenger Information, stage and build their resilience through the school’s where possible, supplemented with embarkation checks pastoral system, using external agencies where at ports where necessary. necessary; WA 119 Written Answers[15 JULY 2014] Written Answers WA 120

identify those with more severe mental health for such services; and whether they will confirm needs and make timely referrals to statutory and/or that the contract was subsequently terminated and voluntary agencies, including CAMHS. at what cost. [HL702] National Institute for Health and Care Excellence guidelines make it clear that anyone who attends an The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord emergency department for self-harm should be offered Faulks) (Con): In early 2010, the Ministry of Justice a comprehensive assessment of their physical, (MoJ) started a programme to design and deliver a psychological and social needs. Self-harm has been new, single system to meet all MoJ needs. identified as a priority for action in the Mental Health The Government’s Next Generation Shared Services Action Plan, Closing the Gap: Priorities for essential (NGSS) Strategy was published in December 2012 change in mental health, published January 2014.A and commenced the establishment of two Independent copy has already been placed in the Library. Shared Service Centres (ISSC1 and ISSC2). In the Preventing suicide in England: A cross-government NGSS Strategy, MoJ was to remain an in-house, outcomes strategy to save lives was published on standalone centre. However, a change to the delivery 10 September 2012. The suicide prevention strategy is approach meant that the MoJ Shared Services backed by up to £1.5 million funding through the Programme was discontinued in early 2013. This Policy Research Programme, to help us better understand provided an opportunity to consider whether ISSC1 key aspects of suicide and self-harm, including looking or ISSC2 might be more efficient and effective at self-harm in young people and the role of the options for the department. To align with the NGSS internet and social media. Strategic Plan, the MoJ are now proceeding into detailed discussions with Shared Services Connected Limited (SSCL) with a view to joining ISSC2. SSCL is a joint venture between the Cabinet Office and Steria Shipping: Exhaust Emissions Ltd. Question This decision means that some elements of expenditure Asked by Lord MacKenzie of Culkein under the old Shared Services programme have now become redundant and a constructive loss of £56.3m To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they has been disclosed accordingly in the 2013-14 will support a delay to the operative date of the financial statements to reflect this. The majority of implementation of measures to reduce sulphur the total investment was spent on assets and emissions to allow the shipping industry to retrofit infrastructure, which can be used by the new shared engines with sulphur extracting technology. [HL950] services scheme.

The Minister of State, Department for Transport Vulnerable Adults: Abuse (Baroness Kramer) (LD): There is no exemption in the Question EU Directive on sulphur content of marine fuels (Directive 2012/33/EU) that would allow the UK or Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark other EU Member States to delay implementation. The timetable for applying the sulphur limits is also To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their an integral part of Annex VI to the International assessment of the risk of ill-treatment or neglect of Convention for the Prevention of Pollution from Ships vulnerable people by volunteers in the care sector. (commonly known as MARPOL) and is therefore a [HL791] binding obligation on states, such as the UK, which are parties to Annexe VI. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department In any event, introducing a delay at this stage could of Health (Earl Howe) (Con): The Government is be extremely damaging for those shipowners and committed to protecting those at risk of abuse and equipment manufacturers who have invested heavily neglect. Wewant to see a focused and effective safeguarding on the basis that the new limit will come into force in system, where harm or risk of harm is identified, acted January 2015. Moreover, a delay in implementation upon effectively and ultimately prevented. would mean a delay in obtaining the benefits to the Any organisation that uses volunteers must ensure UK, notably in terms of improved air quality, which that appropriate checks and assessments of risk are will result from the new limit. carried out when deciding who to employ and that appropriate supervision is provided for volunteers. Employers, including voluntary organisations may, subject to eligibility, obtain criminal records checks Steria from the Disclosure and Barring Service. Vigilance on Question a day-to-day basis is crucial in order that unusual behaviour or behaviour that causes concern is picked Asked by Lord Beecham up at the earliest opportunity. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps Employers should also ensure that they provide were taken by the Ministry of Justice to check with training for staff and volunteers on the policy, procedures other departments what programmes for staffing, and professional practices that are in place locally, procurement and payroll services were already planned which reflects their roles and responsibilities in respect or in use before entering into a contract with Steria of adult safeguarding. WA 121 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 122

Waste Disposal The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Question for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con): The Commission’s proposal for a Directive to amend EU waste legislation—including increased Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon recycling targets—was published on 2 July. We are currently reviewing the proposals and will be consulting To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment across Government, with the Devolved Administrations, they have made of the new waste and recycling and with interested parties that may be impacted by targets proposed by the European Union and their these proposals when developing the Government response. impact on the United Kingdom; and whether they We need to understand the costs and benefits of the plan to oppose them on the grounds of vital national proposals fully to be able to judge which can be interest. [HL878] supported and which opposed. Tuesday 15 July 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Armed Forces: Reserve Forces...... 53 ECOFIN ...... 65

Aviation: Airports Commission ...... 53 Electronic Tagging ...... 66

Boundary Commission for England ...... 56 Executive Agencies: Business Plans...... 66

Chief Coroner: Annual Report...... 56 Fire and Rescue Services...... 67

Constructionline...... 57 Gangmasters Licensing Authority: Annual Report and Accounts ...... 69 Department for International Development: Annual Report and Accounts...... 58 Independent Police Complaints Commission: Annual Report ...... 69 Diplomatic Immunity: Serious Offences ...... 64 Judicial Conduct Investigations Office: Annual Report ..... 69 Diplomatic Missions and International Organisations: Unpaid Congestion Charges...... 58 Lower Thames Crossing ...... 70

Diplomatic Missions and International Organisations: Railways: Infrastructure ...... 71 Unpaid Non-Domestic Rates ...... 61 Smoking: Children in Private Vehicles ...... 72 Diplomatic Missions and International Organisations: Unpaid Parking Fines...... 62 Transforming the Criminal Justice System...... 73

Tuesday 15 July 2014

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Access to Work Programme ...... 111 Legal Aid Scheme ...... 115

Borders: Personal Records ...... 111 Modern Slavery Stakeholders Forum...... 115

Bovine Tuberculosis...... 112 NATO...... 116 Nuclear Weapons...... 117 Doctors: Tax Allowances ...... 112 Passports ...... 117 Ferries: Safety...... 112 Pension Funds ...... 118 Homosexuality...... 113 Self-harm...... 118 Human Trafficking ...... 113 Shipping: Exhaust Emissions...... 119 Iraq Committee of Inquiry ...... 114 Steria ...... 119 Israel...... 114 Vulnerable Adults: Abuse ...... 120 Land ...... 114 Waste Disposal ...... 121 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL536] ...... 116 [HL748] ...... 113

[HL682] ...... 114 [HL752] ...... 114

[HL689] ...... 112 [HL759] ...... 115

[HL702] ...... 120 [HL760] ...... 115 Col. No. Col. No. [HL761] ...... 116 [HL804] ...... 113

[HL762] ...... 116 [HL825] ...... 111

[HL763] ...... 116 [HL826] ...... 117

[HL764] ...... 116 [HL863] ...... 112 [HL865] ...... 114 [HL773] ...... 117 [HL869] ...... 115 [HL780] ...... 118 [HL878] ...... 121 [HL791] ...... 120 [HL888] ...... 111 [HL801] ...... 113 [HL949] ...... 112

[HL802] ...... 113 [HL950] ...... 119

[HL803] ...... 113 [HL980] ...... 118 Volume 755 Tuesday No. 25 15 July 2014

CONTENTS

Tuesday 15 July 2014 Message from the Queen ...... 497 Leader of the House...... 497 Questions Northern Ireland: Illegal Petrol and Diesel ...... 501 Income Tax: Top Rate ...... 503 Cabinet Office: Efficiency and Reform Programme...... 505 Child Abuse...... 508 Business of the House Timing of Debates ...... 510 Public Bodies (Abolition of Food from Britain) Order 2014 Motion to Approve ...... 511 Serious Crime Bill [HL] Committee (3rd Day)...... 511 Cyprus Question for Short Debate ...... 563 Grand Committee Infrastructure Bill [HL] Committee (4th Day) ...... GC 211 Written Statements...... WS 53 Written Answers...... WA 111