Tuesday Volume 501 1 December 2009 No. 8

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 1 December 2009

£5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2009 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 953 1 DECEMBER 2009 954

last week, and it must seem to any sane person a House of Commons disgrace that we still have a divided capital city in Europe, 20 years after the fall of the Berlin wall. We are Tuesday 1 December 2009 determined to do everything that we can. We think that it is important that Turkey adheres to and complies with what it has said that it would do under the Ankara The House met at half-past Two o’clock protocol. It is also important that Turkey continues further along the route towards accession to the European Union. Perhaps the motto that might best serve the PRAYERS talks at the moment is the words of Sheridan, the first Under-Secretary in the Foreign Office, when he said: [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] “The surest way to fail is not to determine to succeed.” We should determine to succeed. BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS David Lepper (Brighton, Pavilion) (Lab/Co-op): I CITY OF WESTMINSTER BILL [LORDS] thank my hon. Friend for the support that the UK Lords message (25 November) relating to the Bill Government have given to the efforts to determine the considered. whereabouts of people on both sides who have been Resolved, missing since the Turkish invasion of 1974. Will he put That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution.—(The additional pressure on the Turkish Government to reveal Chairman of Ways and Means.) more information about the possible whereabouts of the remains of those missing people? TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL PROVISIONS) BILL [LORDS] Lords message (25 November) relating to the Bill Chris Bryant: Last week, when I met the Committee considered. on Missing Persons, it was one of the most distressing parts of my visit, as it must be for anyone who goes to Resolved, Cyprus, to see so many cadavers laid out and to know That this House concurs with the Lords in their Resolution.—(The Chairman of Ways and Means.) that many more are missing. Their families have no sense of closure about what happened so many years ago. We will continue to put pressure on all those Oral Answers to Questions involved to ensure that any information that is out there can be made available to the organisation. However, it is probably going to have to speed up its work as the FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE further we get away from those events, the more difficult The Secretary of State was asked— it is to find answers to what happened. Cyprus Mr. Mark Francois (Rayleigh) (Con): Like the Minister, 1. Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Bermondsey) I too have visited Cyprus this year and we would all like (LD): What steps he is taking to support the talks to see progress towards a lasting settlement. He mentioned aimed at bringing a resolution to the situation in the buffer zone. Given the vital need to maintain public Cyprus; and if he will make a statement. [302594] support for the process on both sides, does he believe that there is now scope for further confidence-building The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): The Prime measures such as opening extra border crossings, to try Minister and the Foreign Secretary recently met President to demonstrate to people across the island that real Christofias to reaffirm our support for the settlement progress is being made and a settlement is yet possible? process, and I met both leaders in Cyprus last week. The UK has also written to the United Nations offering Chris Bryant: I agree with the hon. Gentleman that to cede approximately half the sovereign base area land the more confidence-building measures can be put in for incorporation into a reunited island, should there be place, the greater the likelihood of maintaining political a final agreement. support for the talks and for any eventual solution. My Simon Hughes: The House and others will be grateful own feeling of optimism rose dramatically when I spoke both for the Government’s continuing interest and for to the individual leaders who are actively involved in the the Minister’s specific commitment to this issue. Given talks, but sometimes when I spoke to the media my that many people believe that the best chance in the optimism plummeted. Sometimes the media in Cyprus near future of a peaceful settlement remains while are overly sceptical and cynical about the process. I President Christofias is President of Cyprus and Mr. Talat think that there is significant progress being made and it is the President in the self-declared northern republic, is important that agreement has been reached to intensify what do the Government plan to do at the European the talks in the new year. Council later this month to try to move things on, and what other pressure can be exerted to try to ensure that Afghanistan the next few months are not yet another wasted opportunity? 2. Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): What Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is right to say that progress is being made towards holding a conference this is a unique opportunity given that the leaders in on future policy on Afghanistan in January 2010 each community have staked their political careers on as proposed by the Prime Minister in his Guildhall desiring and willing a settlement. I saw the buffer zone speech? [302595] 955 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 956

The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth I am sure that the right hon. and learned Gentleman Affairs (David Miliband): The London conference on knows that Afghanistan is a country of some 40,000 Afghanistan will be held on 28 January 2010. The villages and has rarely been governed from Kabul; it has purpose is to mobilise international efforts in support been governed by local tribal structures. That is why it of a combined military and political strategy in Afghanistan. has been at the heart of the endeavours of the Government In addition to the Government of Afghanistan, partners and the international community to ensure that, as well in the international security assistance force, Afghanistan’s as forging the appropriate partnership in Kabul, we immediate neighbours and international institutions are strengthen, wherever possible, local governance—that being invited. means provincial and district governance—and that remains our commitment. Mr. Jenkin: What is the objective political end state that the allies are seeking to achieve in Afghanistan? Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab): As my right hon. Friend knows, at the start of the conflict, considerable David Miliband: The shared objective across the attention was given to the situation of women in international community is an Afghan Government Afghanistan. According to the report from the UN and security forces that are able to defend themselves high commissioner for human rights, she is concerned from being overrun by a Taliban misrule that would that the Afghan Government do not seem to be giving eventually become a safe space for al-Qaeda. To make enough attention to the protection of women. What can that possible, we need to wage a genuine counter-insurgency we do in this conference to bring the situation of struggle on both sides of the Durand line—in both women to the fore of the agenda again? Afghanistan and Pakistan—in partnership with the Afghan Government and the Pakistani Government. David Miliband: My right hon. Friend makes an important point. At every stage, we should be stressing Mr. Michael Clapham (Barnsley, West and Penistone) our commitment to the constitution of Afghanistan, (Lab): Is the conference likely to discuss the prospect of which gives equal rights to all its citizens and should a high commissioner for Afghanistan? What is his view provide the ring within which any former insurgents are on the current campaign against Kai Eide, the head of willing to return to the political system. The constitution the UN mission in Afghanistan? Is that campaign likely of Afghanistan should be the benchmark by which all to have a negative impact on politics in Afghanistan? Afghan Governments and international partners are held to account. David Miliband: Kai Eide is the UN special representative in Afghanistan and has a very important role at the Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): Yesterday, head of the United Nations Assistance Mission in the Prime Minister announced a series of benchmarks Afghanistan. There will be mourning across the House for the Afghan Government, including that all 400 for the loss of UN staff in Afghanistan, a number of provinces and districts must appoint a governor free of whom were killed in a terrible incident last month. That corruption within nine months. We assume that when civilian leadership from the UN is very important, and the conference takes place on 28 January, President I think that Kai Eide has done his work in a professional Karzai will be held to those benchmarks, but will the and appropriate manner. Foreign Secretary tell the House how they will be monitored, I spoke to Kai Eide when I was in Kabul last week how “free from corruption” will be determined, and by and emphasised to him our continued commitment not whom, and what penalties there will be if the various just to the role of the UN, but to his leadership. Obviously, deadlines that the Prime Minister laid down have not it is up to him how long he goes beyond his two-year been met? mandate for which he was appointed. I also point out to right hon. and hon. Members that there is an important Mr. Speaker: I say to the Foreign Secretary that there civilian role in the international security assistance force— were three questions there, but that one answer will NATO has nominated a civilian to play a role in ISAF suffice. to ensure that the latter’s operations are linked properly to the civilian side. In that sense, it is important that civilian leadership is provided both through the UN David Miliband: The answer is that, by definition, the and in ISAF in Afghanistan. conference is in two months, and even the timeline to which the hon. Gentleman referred is nine months. Of those benchmarks, the 34 provincial governor appointments Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): If, by are, of course, key, and it is well understood, within the time that the conference is held, it has become clear Afghanistan and internationally, what constitutes fair that President Karzai is unwilling, or unable, to fulfil and effective governance. I stress that that also applies his obligations, will the conference be able to accept and at district level, which he mentioned. At each stage, embrace a provincial, rather than a national strategy to whether in respect of police or army training, or prevent President Karzai from being an obstacle to gubernatorial appointments, the international community progress? will take a collective view, as will the people of Afghanistan.

David Miliband: Since the Prime Minister’s statement Afghanistan-Pakistan at the Dispatch Box in December 2007, the importance of the local governance agenda in Afghanistan—not just at the provincial level, through the 34 provinces, but 3. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): What recent at the district level, through the 394 districts—has been assessment he has made of the political situation in the at the centre of the Government’s work. Afghanistan-Pakistan border area. [302596] 957 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 958

David Miliband: The Afghanistan-Pakistan border about the Pakistani authorities’ responsibilities in respect region is ungoverned, unstable and a haven for terrorist of the so-called Afghan Taliban. The distinction has and militant groups, including al-Qaeda. Countering been strongly drawn in Pakistan between those groups that threat needs the Afghan and Pakistani Governments that are dedicated to the overthrow of the Pakistani to work within their own jurisdiction and, crucially, state, relative to those other groups that are a threat to together on their shared problems of terrorist activity, our troops and to those on the Afghan side of the narcotics and weapons trafficking and limited economic border. Our argument—or, most recently, my discussion opportunities. We continue to encourage such collaboration with the Foreign Minister of Pakistan at the and make our contribution to the international effort to Commonwealth conference on Friday—was to say that support effective counter-insurgency in both countries the multiple insurgencies that threaten Pakistan need to and on both sides of the border. be addressed together. He understood that point, but he also made the fair point that, for public opinion in Ann Winterton: Does the Secretary of State agree Pakistan, the first priority is to get a grip on the various that one of the most deep-rooted problems is the organisations—not just the Pakistan Taliban, but Lashkar- unrecognised Durand line, which is as critical today as e-Taiba, which we discussed in the House during the it was in 1893, when it split the tribal areas, which the debate on the Queen’s Speech. That remains the case, Afghans called Yaghistan, the land of the unruly? How but from our point of view, it is essential that the can we now expect Pakistan to sort out that border, Pakistani authorities address the multiple insurgencies which is the legacy of a colonial past? that provide a home for al-Qaeda, as the Prime Minister said yesterday. David Miliband: The hon. Lady will know that there are many legacies of the colonial past, not least on the Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab): But is not Pakistan side of the border, where the Frontier Crimes the political situation worsened by the propaganda that Regulation of 1903 remains the basis of the legal system argues that the west is fundamentally anti-Muslim? and political parties continue to be banned 61 years That was not helped by the Swiss referendum result on after independence. Although I know what she means Sunday or the unfortunate intervention by the Leader when she says that the Durand line is unrecognised, in of the Opposition last week, for which he graciously fact it is recognised by everyone, but also disputed by apologised. Can my right hon. Friend find an opportunity everyone, so it is a disputed line rather than an unrecognised to make a speech insisting that Britain is not an anti-Muslim line. I hope that she will agree with me that the issue nation? We have to keep stressing that in order to make today is not redrawing the Durand line, which would it clear. not be a source of progress anywhere; rather, what both sides of the border need is the sort of stability that can David Miliband: I hope that my right hon. Friend will come from effective institutions, and not just military look back at the speech that I made in May at the institutions, but political and economic institutions ones. Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies, in which I addressed Sadly, they have been lacking for too long on both sides that issue among many others. It is a complete calumny of the border. to suggest that anyone in this House sees the war in Afghanistan as part of an anti-Muslim effort of any Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): The Foreign kind whatever—certainly no one in the Government Secretary made reference just now to our contribution believes that, and I do not believe it to be the case in any to counter-insurgency, as did the Prime Minister yesterday. part of the House. Can he tell the House whether a D notice was in I do think, though, that it is very important to existence prior to yesterday’s announcement by the continue to emphasise that the vast majority of Afghans, Prime Minister of the numbers of special forces deployed Muslims as they are, do not want to side with the to the region and if so, why it was in existence before Taliban and do not want to go back to Taliban misrule. that statement and why it was no longer necessary after The greatest resource we have in the counter-insurgency it? in Afghanistan is the fact that the Afghan people do not want to go back to the 1990s—and nor do we. David Miliband: To make sure that there are absolutely no mistakes in this often tangled territory, I will write to Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): Question my hon. Friend with an answer to his question and 5, Mr. Speaker. ensure that there is a full understanding in all parts of the House. The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): Reform of the EU budget has not been discussed recently at the Mr. Keith Simpson (Mid-Norfolk) (Con): Let us try General Affairs and External Relations Council— one question for the Foreign Secretary. Is he confident that the Pakistan army and, in particular, the intelligence Mr. Speaker: Order. I think that the right hon. Member services are prepared fully to undertake their commitments for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory) was seeking a grouping. in dealing with the Taliban and al-Qaeda? Chris Bryant: I apologise. David Miliband: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will understand that even when he says “the Taliban”, he sets out the complexity of the situation. He will know EU Budget Reform better than I that the Pakistani authorities, including the Government and Inter-Services Intelligence, are 5. Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): What absolutely clear about their obligations to take on the recent discussions he has had in the General Affairs Pakistan Taliban. The argument that is happening is Council on reform of the EU budget. [302598] 959 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 960

9. Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con): What recent (Philip Davies)—put it at an astonishing £2,000 per discussions he has had in the General Affairs Council person a year. Which of these figures remotely resembles on reform of the EU budget. [302602] the truth?

Chris Bryant: As I was saying before I was interrupted— Chris Bryant: None of those figures remotely represents [Interruption.] the truth. The truth of the matter is that if Britain were to leave the EU, the cost in terms of jobs, the cost in Mr. Speaker: Order. I know the hon. Gentleman will terms of business opportunities and the costs in terms accept that my interruption was both necessary and of trade would be phenomenal to every single family in helpful. this country.

Chris Bryant: And they are getting more necessary Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): Does and more helpful, Mr. Speaker. the Minister agree with the General Affairs Council committing resources to negotiating a new trade deal Reform of the EU budget has not been discussed with Colombia, when the Government of Colombia are recently at the General Affairs and External Relations allowing the extra judicial slaughter of dozens of trade Council. The Government remain committed to far- unionists? reaching reform of the EU budget, refocusing it on jobs and growth, driving the transition to a low-carbon economy, tackling climate change and ensuring security, Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend is absolutely right that stability and poverty reduction. there is a very serious human rights situation in Colombia. He knows, I think, that I have visited the country and I think he may be about to visit it himself. This is an issue Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: The hon. Gentleman will know that I raised directly with the President, Mr. Uribe. In that the Lisbon treaty was sold to us on the basis that it moving forward to any trade deal with Peru and Colombia, would make matters simpler and also more efficient. I think it right not only to address the issue of Scotch Why, then, has the European Scrutiny Committee just whisky but also to ensure that there are robust and been told of a supplementary bid for next year’s budget enforceable human rights clauses in place. of another £22 million to pay for additional European Council events, for the salary entitlements and travel Mr. Mark Francois (Rayleigh) (Con): In December costs of the new President of the Council, for another 2005, this Government cut Britain’s originally non- 50 posts and for more media coverage and medical negotiable EU rebate by £7 billion in return for a vague expenses? Why have— promise of a review of the EU budget that has not yet been delivered. Some four years on, can the Minister Mr. Speaker: Order. We have got the gist and that is say when the European Commission’s communication quite long enough. setting out proposals for budget reform will formally be published? Chris Bryant: The right hon. former Minister for Europe knows perfectly well the process that operates—that Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman is completely and the European Parliament makes its bid every year for its utterly wrong. The main reason why we reached the budget for next year; that is precisely the process that we negotiated settlement that we reached at the time was are going through at the moment. that not only did we believe that enlargement was right and proper for the European Union and good for Philip Davies: Given that the accounts of the EU British interests, but we were prepared to pay the price have not been signed off by the auditors for 15 years of that enlargement, as were several other countries. running, why do the Government keep giving more and The hon. Gentleman often wants to will the ends, but more money to the EU? Surely if the Government are never the means. serious about reform of the EU budget, they should say that the EU will not get a penny more from the British Mr. Francois: The former Prime Minister came back Government until it gets its accounts properly audited. to the House and said that he would negotiate a deal on the basis of budget reform. We were here, and we Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman knows perfectly remember it. In view of the lamentable negotiating well that if we were to follow his policy, which is to get performance by the present Government, and the French out of the EU, it would significantly harm British President’s ability to claim just last week that the British interests. He knows perfectly well, too, that, as the were big losers from the recent EU summit, does the director general of the British Chambers of Commerce, Minister now understand why people in this country no David Frost said only a few weeks ago: “Business”, by longer believe that the Government are capable of securing which he meant British business, our financial or economic interests in the European Union? “wants a pragmatic approach to the EU, not an ideological one” such as the hon. Gentleman’s. Chris Bryant: The hon. Gentleman talks of influence in the European Union. What influence can you have David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): when you have absconded from the main European The EU estimates its costs to the UK at £15 per person groupings in the European Parliament, when you are a year, while the Europhobic Daily Express assesses it as not able to secure a single European Commissioner for £250 per family a year and the TaxPayers Alliance—the your grouping, and when you are not able to secure a Tory party agitators of the hon. Member for Shipley single vice-president in the European Parliament? 961 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 962

As for the Committee on Economic and Monetary David Miliband: I refer my hon. Friend and the right Affairs, when 12 portfolios on financial and economic hon. and learned Gentleman to the Prime Minister’s issues that were important to Britain were handed out, statement to the House yesterday. President Karzai was not a single Conservative Member of Parliament was inaugurated on 19 November, and we await the formation given one of those portfolios, but two were given to the of his Cabinet. The international community needs to Labour party. So the hon. Gentleman cannot talk about work with the Afghan Government to make progress influence in Europe. on the five issues that were identified as priorities in President Karzai’s inauguration speech. Falkland Islands Mr. Illsley: Does not the suggestion of a United 6. Mr. Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con): What States high representative or chief executive to work recent representations he has received on international alongside President Karzai somewhat undermine his recognition of the Falkland Islands as a United already fragile legitimacy? If and when that proposal Kingdom overseas territory. [302599] becomes a reality, will the British Government support it? The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): The Government have no doubt about their sovereignty of the Falkland David Miliband: I am not sure whether my hon. Islands. The principle of self-determination underlies Friend is referring to the international civilian leadership that. Nevertheless, Argentina unfortunately continues or the idea that there should be a reformed administrative to make regular representations on its supposed claim structure inside President Karzai’s office. The discussion to sovereignty. that I have heard in the past is of Afghans filling those roles, rather than Americans or others. I will certainly Mr. Hollobone: It is in the best interests of Britain follow up the report my hon. Friend is concerned about, and the Falkland Islands for there to be as much but the idea that Afghanistan should be run by the international support as possible for the present status Afghans, and the sooner the better, has always been at of the islands. In that context, how many members of the heart of our approach. the United Nations—there are 192 of them—recognise the islanders’ right to self-determination, and their choice Sir Malcolm Rifkind: Notwithstanding the increasing that the islands should be a United Kingdom overseas attention being given by both President Obama and the territory? Prime Minister to an exit strategy for NATO forces, will Chris Bryant: That is fundamentally recognised the Foreign Secretary confirm that, even when NATO throughout the international community. We constantly ground forces are completely withdrawn, it will continue make representations to those who want to question the to be necessary to provide NATO air support to the issue, but I have absolutely no doubt about the position Afghan Government, probably for the foreseeable future? in the Falkland Islands. It is good that next-of-kin visits Is it not the case that just as it was a combination of from Argentina have been possible, and we seek good NATO air power and Afghan ground forces that drove relations with Argentina, but not on the basis of discussing the Taliban out in the first place, so it will be that same sovereignty. combination that will keep them out of power in the future? Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): As my right hon. Friend will know, next of kin of those who David Miliband: The right hon. and learned Gentleman died on both sides in the Falklands war have always makes an important point. At present, in most parts of been able to visit the graves, but there were difficulties the country the Afghan forces are being trained by over a larger visit following the 25th anniversary of the international forces, and international forces are having conflict. Is he able to update the House? to undertake leadership in combat operations. We very much hope that, in line with President Karzai’s commitment, Chris Bryant: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for within five years all provinces in the country will follow raising the issue of next-of-kin visits. There was a Kabul in having Afghan security leadership. However, substantial visit recently, and I pay tribute to all on the that will not mean the end of international support Falkland Islands who made it possible for that to happen for the Afghan forces and of air support of the kind with dignity and true respect for those who had died on the right hon. and learned Gentleman describes, and both sides of the conflict. I know that several Members the so-called overwatch role that was developed for the were able to play in a rugby match against members of circumstances of Iraq will remain an issue beyond that the Argentine congress, and that the Argentine team date. It is important, however, to signal the current was led by someone who had fought for the Argentines priority, which is to transfer the leadership of combat in the Falkland Islands. I believe that the respect between operations to the Afghan forces. the two countries is intimate.

Afghanistan Mr. Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry, North-West) (Lab): My right hon. Friend referred to international civilian 7. Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central) (Lab): What is leadership and the importance of strengthening that if his latest assessment of the political situation in we are to succeed in our overall goals, and the Prime Afghanistan; and if he will make a statement. [302600] Minister said yesterday that that would be a major topic at the London conference. Will the Government consider 12. Sir Malcolm Rifkind (Kensington and Chelsea) strengthening it through the important means of (Con): What recent assessment he has made of the co-ordinating its efforts, and perhaps even, temporarily, political situation in Afghanistan; and if he will make a through the integration of its efforts with those of statement. [302605] General McChrystal on the military front? 963 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 964

David Miliband: My hon. Friend makes an important when we will put an end to the vile trade in heroin, point. As he knows, civilian-military co-ordination is which does so much damage in Afghanistan and on the essential in provincial reconstruction teams around streets of Britain? Afghanistan. In Helmand province, where most of the British forces are, there is a combined military and David Miliband: My hon. Friend makes an important civilian team, being led, as it happens, by an official point. He will be pleased, as I am, that the past two from the Department for International Development, years’ poppy crop has been significantly down; I stand previously an official from the Foreign Office. That sort to be corrected, but I believe that there has been a 30 per of integration of, and co-operation between, the military cent. fall and then a 22 per cent. fall, and that the and civilian sides of the effort is essential, and I hope we number of poppy-free districts has increased to 21. He see it being replicated at national level. The two roles of will be as concerned as I am at the high level of poppy the head of the United Nations and the NATO production that remains. Our experience is that there representative in ISAF will be critical to achieving that. are two key factors to turning this round, the first of which is security—because poppy production is the Mr. Edward Davey (Kingston and Surbiton) (LD): product of insecurity—and the second of which is a The Prime Minister talked yesterday about political decent economic price for licit production, notably of reforms to produce governors appointed on merit and wheat. free from corruption. Is it envisaged that the process to achieve that will involve removing existing governors, Middle East (Nuclear Proliferation) and is it also envisaged that the new governors will ever acquire any political legitimacy of their own, other than 8. Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): What recent being appointees of President Karzai? assessment he has made of the levels of nuclear proliferation in the middle east; and if he will make a David Miliband: In my experience of travelling to statement. [302601] Afghanistan and talking to people there and of studying the situation in that country, the credibility of the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth governors at provincial and district level comes from Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): The prospect of a nuclear-armed the work they do and the way they do it. Those governors Iran remains the most immediate proliferation threat to who have shown themselves to be dedicated to the the middle east. Iran needs to co-operate fully with the interests of the people of their province have won International Atomic Energy Agency and comply with widespread support, significantly through community five United Nations Security Council resolutions calling councils, but also through other ways of engaging with for it to suspend its enrichment programme. the local population. In this case, therefore, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The governors who perform Mr. Jones: Iran’s announcement that it intends to well, gain confidence; those who turn out to be placemen, build another 10 uranium enrichment plants may or or to be in it for their own interests, quickly lose the may not be mere posturing, but in any event, it amounts confidence of both Afghans and the international to provocative defiance of the will of the international community. community, as expressed in the IAEA resolution. At what point does the Minister consider that economic Mr. Davey: I hope some of the governors currently in sanctions against Iran will become inevitable? post will be removed during that political reform process, but how does the Foreign Secretary see the much needed Mr. Lewis: First, we should not be distracted by the process of reconciliation and reintegration working at announcement made this week. The issue is that after district and local level? Will it be organised by these new six years of engagement and five UN Security Council governors, and will the ISAF coalition fund such Afghan-led resolutions Iran has still refused to comply with its reconciliation work at the local level? responsibilities under international law. What has been agreed by the international community is that there will David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman makes an be a meeting of officials of the E3 plus 3 this month, an important point. We talk about reintegration at local assessment will be made of the engagement strategy so level. Reintegration is for the middle and high-level far, and at that time an appropriate judgment will be commanders, and at the local level it will need to be made about the next stage. What is clear is that the Afghan-led and internationally supported. There will international community will not tolerate Iran developing be different ways of arranging it in different parts of the nuclear weapons. Not only is that a threat to the stability country—sometimes at district level, at other times, of the middle east, but it would also trigger an arms where a larger reintegration needs to be achieved, at race in that region, which would have no limit. provincial level. One important point worth making to the House is that the reintegration effort only succeeds Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab): But when the other side of the coin is a military and security what representations has my hon. Friend made to the effort, first because those in the insurgency need to newly appointed European Union High Representative know the risk that is carried by continuing the insurgency, for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy to ensure that, but also because they need to know they will be properly as is crucial, a single voice comes out of the European protected if they come within the constitutional set-up. Union against the Iranian uranium enrichment policy?

Mr. David Crausby (Bolton, North-East) (Lab): We Mr. Lewis: My hon. Friend is right to make the point have been in Afghanistan long enough to know where that we need the EU speaking with one clear, loud voice every poppy field is, so can my right hon. Friend tell me and making it clear to Iran that we stand together on 965 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 966 this issue. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary continue to support those efforts, because the alternatives will meet the new High Representative this week to that for the people of Israel, Palestine and the rest of the end. region look so much worse.

Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): The IAEA Andrew Selous: I am sure that the Foreign Secretary director general has said: will agree that education and hope for the future are “We have effectively reached a dead end” important for peace in the middle east so, to that end, may I ask him to have a word with his Israeli counterpart on Iran. Given that, does the Minister agree that we about the 8,000 desks that the UN has imported into need to be talking about a new UN Security Council Gaza for schoolchildren? They cannot be assembled resolution, which should include a total ban on arms because the Israelis will not let the nails come in. Will he sales to Iran, a tough UN inspections regime and action commit to have a word on that subject? against the Iranian Islamic revolutionary guard corps, which is deeply involved in Iran’s nuclear and ballistic David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman raises a very missile programmes? important point, and I shall certainly raise it. We have raised many issues over the past year—or certainly Mr. Lewis: What is important is that it is absolutely since January and the end of Operation Cast Lead—about clear that despite the international community’s reaching the grip that exists at the checkpoints, in terms of both out a hand towards Iran, requesting diplomatic engagement the volume of trade and the items that are allowed in. I and saying that we want a political solution, and despite have never heard that item referred to before, but the the speech in which the new President of the United hon. Gentleman raises a very important point and I States made those points, Iran has still refused to engage: shall certainly follow it up. for more than a year, it has not engaged with the UN’s nuclear watchdog in any way.If, at this stage of reappraisal, Mrs. Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op): the best way forward is found to be a United Nations What lessons does my right hon. Friend draw from resolution about further sanctions against Iran, we will Iran’s recent attempt to send 500 tonnes of weapons to take that view seriously. Hezbollah? The weapons were disguised as civilian cargo, and some of them as construction materials, but thankfully Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab): It the attempt was intercepted and thwarted by the Israelis. is clear that Iran has not listened to anything that anybody has said for the past six years and is proceeding David Miliband: We must learn two lessons. The first irrespective of any representations made, so talk of is that we must never underestimate the extent to which further sanctions is really neither here nor there. However, some will go to get further weapons into Gaza, and the may I press the Minister a little further? Having P3 and second is that we must follow up every aspect of resolution E3, and talking to the new High Representative, is still 1860—[Interruption.] I beg my hon. Friend’s pardon: not a proper European position. Will he say exactly she referred to Hezbollah and not to Gaza. We should how the three E3 countries—Germany, France and never underestimate the extent to which some will go to the United Kingdom—intend to work with the rest of arm terrorist groups all across the region. Secondly, we the European Union and the new High Representative should not underestimate the extent to which the to bring some clout to the table? international community needs to come together to follow through on repeated resolutions, in the UN Mr. Lewis: The General Affairs Council is due to and elsewhere, to support all states in the region that meet next week. There will be an attempt to get complete are committed to coexistence. That is what we will EU unity on this issue, so that we can go forward to the certainly do. December E3 plus 3 meeting with a common EU position. We will then consider the case for a UN Security Foreign Prisoner Release Council resolution. 11. Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) Middle East Peace Process (Con): If he will hold discussions with the Scottish Executive on co-ordination of policy on release and 10. Andrew Selous (South-West Bedfordshire) (Con): removal from the country of foreign prisoners held in What his most recent assessment is of progress in the UK prisons. [302604] middle east peace process. [302603] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I understand from my right Affairs (David Miliband): There is more consensus in hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Home Affairs the international community than there has been for that no discussions are planned with the Scottish Executive many years about the basis for a resolution of the on these issues. The release of any prisoner in the dispute between Israel and the Palestinians, but the Scottish prison estate is a devolved matter for the Scottish parties are moving further apart. Those Palestinians Executive. Deportation of foreign national prisoners and Israelis who are committed to the idea of a Palestinian remains a reserved matter for the UK Border Agency. state based on 1967 borders, with Jerusalem as the shared capital and a fair settlement for refugees, appear Daniel Kawczynski: What lessons have the Minister smaller in number and weaker in politics than ever and the Government learned from the release of Mr. al- before. However, the US Administration are engaged Megrahi to Tripoli? The Government’s total silence at in a good-faith endeavour to bridge the gap. We will the time brought great shame and embarrassment to 967 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 968 our country. Will he interact properly with the Scottish The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Executive in future to ensure that such embarrassments Affairs (David Miliband) rose— do not happen again? The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Mr. Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis) rose—[Laughter.] made a statement to the House that set out very clearly the terms of the release of al-Megrahi. As the hon. David Miliband: I say to my hon. Friend the Minister Gentleman knows full well, the decision was entirely a of State that you have to be quick in this game. The matter for the Scottish Executive, and he was not even notes for the reply say that the Minister answering is in the House when my right hon. Friend made his “Ivan Lewis”, so I apologise—but hesitation and deviation statement. are both punished in this House. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): But does my The inclusive Government continue to make progress hon. Friend agree that the normal process should be on economic reform, but we are disappointed by the that foreign prisoners who have committed an offence slow pace of political reform, the spasmodic violence should serve their sentences in their country of origin, and the continuation of human rights abuses. The Southern unless it would not be safe for them to do so, or their African Development Community agreed at its Maputo crimes are so unacceptable that they should remain summit to push for further implementation of the global here? political agreement in Zimbabwe, but the proof will be in the delivery. We urge all parties, as the Commonwealth Mr. Lewis: That depends entirely on the nature of the did on Sunday, to stick to the agreement and comply agreements that we have with other countries. The with it. agreements that the Home Office has with other countries vary according to our relationships with those countries, Mr. Swayne: Is it not clear that there can be no real so such decisions have to be made on a case-by-case change while Mugabe remains? Will the Secretary of basis. State confirm that it is absolute nonsense to speak of readmission to the Commonwealth while the current EU Informal Meeting situation persists?

13. Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): What David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman will know that the outcome was of the informal meeting of EU Heads Prime Minister Tsvangirai has committed to the global of State or Government on 19 November 2009; and if political agreement, which is a transitional agreement he will make a statement. [302606] to renewed elections over an 18-month period. The Commonwealth, the British Government and others The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): The special have said that that all parties must stick to that agreement. European Council on 19 November came to unanimous If that happens, the future of Zimbabwe can be turned agreement on the appointment of Herman Van Rompuy away from the terrible descent into violence and economic as the first permanent President of the European Council, chaos into which Mugabe took the country. and of Baroness Cathy Ashton as the new High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy. Topical Questions Miss McIntosh: Does the Minister not regret being outmanoeuvred by our partners on the spurious grounds T1. [302619] Mike Gapes (Ilford, South) (Lab/Co-op): of gender equality when we could have taken home the If he will make a statement on his departmental prize of one of the most important financial and economic responsibilities. EU Commissioner posts, which would have been of great benefit to the City of London? The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (David Miliband): The Commonwealth Heads Chris Bryant: No. The hon. Lady was a rather more of Government met in Trinidad and Tobago between pragmatic and sensible pro-European when she was a 27 and 29 November. The meeting underlined the Member of the European Parliament. She knows perfectly Commonwealth’s strength through its diversity and ability well that these are good appointments. The appointment to promote action, and the importance of its core of Cathy Ashton as High Representative will be especially values. We saw strong support for a deal in Copenhagen good because we need Europe to play a far more and agreed a UK proposal for a Copenhagen launch effective role on the global stage, and she is a woman fund, as well on calling on Zimbabwe’s coalition partners who will bring that about. I welcome the appointment to respect their commitments and restore democracy of Michel Barnier as the Internal Market Commissioner, and the rule of law. The Commonwealth also agreed to and I merely note that the hon. Lady’s party wants to set up an eminent persons group to consider the dismantle elements of the internal market, which would modernisation of the Commonwealth, including its systems be wholly inappropriate. and priorities, to prepare it for the future.

Zimbabwe Mike Gapes: Following the overwhelming and welcome vote by the board of the International Atomic Energy 14. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): Agency and the subsequent capture and detention of What recent assessment he has made of the political British civilian yacht competitors, will the Foreign Secretary situation in Zimbabwe; and if he will make a statement. update the House on the current state of relations [302607] between the UK and Iran? 969 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 970

David Miliband: First, I should say that I am sure that Will the Secretary of State tell the House when the child hon. Members on both sides of the House look forward rights panel last met, and what plans there are for it to to the prompt release of the yachtsmen, who were in meet again in the near future? their yacht between Bahrain and Dubai purely for sporting purposes. The consular case is being pursued Mr. Ivan Lewis: The hon. Gentleman is right to say in London and Tehran. In the light of my hon. Friend’s that child rights are an integral part of British foreign question, it is important to say that there is no link at all policy objectives. The panel meets on an ad hoc basis between the position of the yachtsmen and the Iranian when and if necessary. It is true that it has not met for nuclear file or other political issues between Iran and some time. The last time we called a meeting of child the rest of the international community. We very much rights stakeholders was in July this year to assist our look forward to the yachtsmen being released on a work revising the FCO’s children and armed conflict consular basis. We understand that they are being treated strategy.We want children’s rights to become a mainstream well in Iran, as we would expect. As I said outside the integral part of our work, and we will convene that House earlier today, we are working closely with the panel when necessary. Iranian Government to ensure that the release happens as quickly as possible. T3. [302621] Mr. Andy Reed (Loughborough) (Lab/Co-op): Rwanda has made tremendous progress in the past T4. [302622] Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove)(LD): There 15 years, leading to its accession to the Commonwealth are 50,000 Christians displaced in Orissa state, and the at the weekend and today’s announcement that it is Indian Government’s compensation scheme appears to largely mine-free. What steps can the Government take have stalled. Will the Secretary of State tell the House to consolidate that progress through work with the what representations he has made to the Indian Westminster Foundation for Democracy and by Government to get the compensation scheme flowing building good governance, not just in Rwanda but again and the displaced persons resettled? across the rest of east Africa, to assist those countries, particularly from the point of view of good governance The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth and of development? Office (Mr. Ivan Lewis): I can update the hon. Gentleman. The British high commissioner visited Orissa and spoke The Minister for Europe (Chris Bryant): My hon. to the state authorities only a couple of weeks ago Friend is right. We, too, welcome the accession of specifically about this issue. They advised the high Rwanda to the Commonwealth. We think that this is an commissioner that the state-run camps have been closed, important point at which Rwanda can seize hold of the that affected Christians have now been returned to their values and principles to which the Commonwealth adheres, homes, that compensation has been provided, and that and make them prominent in its constitution and in its the perpetrators have been convicted. Of course, we will way of life. We work closely with the Government in continue to monitor the situation. Kigali to try to enforce key messages on media freedom and good governance and to support the national Human Rights Commission, and we will continue to do so. T2. [302620] David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): When the world comes together in Copenhagen this weekend for the United Nations T6. [302625] Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) climate change conference, will our Government press (Ind): What has been done to improve further our for an amended and extended Kyoto protocol, with a relations with Japan, particularly with the new second commitment period of emission reduction Democratic Party of Japan Government? We have targets for industrialised companies as an absolute many shared interests in international security—the priority for those crucial negotiations? new H-2A rocket has recently been launched by Japan—and we can learn a lot from its experiences in dealing with a low-growth economy. David Miliband: My hon. Friend raises a very important matter. Every industrialised country must come forward Mr. Ivan Lewis: The hon. Gentleman is right to draw with a binding emissions target, both intermediate and attention to the importance of our relationship with long term. However, one difference between the Kyoto Japan, particularly given the election of the new Japanese protocol and the Copenhagen agreement is—I hope—that Government. Since that Government were formed, there at Copenhagen, every country in the world will make a have been UK ministerial visits to Japan by the Minister commitment to ensure that it does not proceed with with responsibility for defence equipment and support, business as usual. After all, 90 per cent. of the increase by the Minister for Science and Innovation, and by the in carbon emissions over the next 50 years will come Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and skills. from developing countries rather than industrialised The Prime Minister has met the new Japanese Prime countries. While we cannot expect absolute cuts from Minister on at least one occasion. We very much welcome many developing countries, we can help them to ensure Japan’s bold initiative on climate change, and its recent that they do not proceed on a high-carbon development announcement of a £5 billion assistance package to path. Afghanistan. We want to continue to deepen and strengthen our relationship with Japan. T5. [302624] Mr. Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con): As part of its strategy on child rights published T7. [302626] Barry Gardiner (Brent, North) (Lab): Last in August 2007, the FCO said that it would work Thursday evening was the first anniversary of the closely with, and continue to consult, the child rights Mumbai bombings, in which 165 people died, many of panel them friends and relatives of my constituents. The “to discuss and continuously develop this strategy.” involvement of the Inter-Services Intelligence in the 971 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 972 planning of those bombings is widely known, yet David Miliband: I think that after a week of the there has not been co-operation by the Pakistani Chilcot inquiry, it is time for all sides to recognise the Government to bring the perpetrators to book. What value of the inquiry.It is doing its work in an outstandingly can my right hon. Friend do to ensure that pressure is professional and clear way. We should allow it to finish brought to bear on the Pakistani Government on this its work. No one else is drawing conclusions, even if the matter? hon. Gentleman is. My suspicion is that he already had his conclusions before the inquiry even opened its doors. David Miliband: My hon. Friend, who has a long record as a deep, deep friend of India, is right to raise Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): The this terrible anniversary. The Prime Minister and I both middle east peace process is badly hindered by the rift conveyed to Prime Minister Singh the deepest sympathy between Fatah and Hamas. Does my right hon. Friend and condolences of the British people on the first agree that if Marwan Barghouti is able to heal that rift, anniversary of the terrible Mumbai attacks. As for the we should persuade the Israelis to release him from prosecution of those involved, my hon. Friend will prison? know that seven people have been charged in the Pakistani Mr. Ivan Lewis: Any decision on the release of prisoners political system—or rather, in the Pakistani criminal is a matter for the Israeli Government and has to be a justice system—for their role in the Mumbai attacks. case for negotiation between the Israelis and the Palestinians. We have been urging the Pakistani authorities to proceed In the context of that debate, we strongly urge Hamas with those trials at the earliest opportunity. This is an immediately to release Gilad Shalit, who was illegally issue that we will take up again with Prime Minister detained against international law. We support the Egyptian Gillani when he comes to London on Thursday. efforts to seek unification in the Palestinian leadership between Hamas and Fatah. As I understand it, Fatah T8. [302627] Mr. Mark Lancaster (North-East Milton signed up to such an agreement, brokered by the Egyptians, Keynes) (Con): Ascension Island faces bankruptcy next but Hamas refused to do so. We continue to support the June because of the ongoing dispute between the FCO Egyptian efforts. and the Ministry of Defence over just £600,000 of unpaid taxes. The island’s school is set to close, and Sir Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield) (Con): Extreme many St. Helenians are set to lose their jobs. Will the violence against both black and white in Zimbabwe Foreign Secretary finally get a grip of this ongoing continues, and Mr. Mugabe totally ignores the rulings dispute, bang heads together and sort the issue out? of Southern African Development Community institutions. Is it not now the case that the only individual who can Chris Bryant: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for do anything about Mr. Mugabe and bring about his fall raising this issue. He had an interesting visit to the is Mr. Jacob Zuma, the President of South Africa, who island earlier this year. He has mentioned these issues to could switch off the electricity and cut off the fuel me several times, and I am happy to say to him that supplies to Zimbabwe? I have every intention of trying to resolve them as a David Miliband: The hon. Gentleman, who has taken matter of urgency. I am meeting my counterpart in the a long interest in that issue, is right to point to the Ministry of Defence tomorrow or the day after, and I importance of South Africa, and in particular of President hope that we will be able to have the matter resolved in Zuma. President Zuma gave to the closing session of time for the Overseas Territories Consultative Council. the Commonwealth conference a report on SADC’s efforts, and he dedicated himself to support the global Mr. Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich, West) (Lab/Co-op): political agreement that, after all, has been signed by Russia has a crucial role to play in the future security of Prime Minister Tsvangirai as well as by President Mugabe. energy provision to this country and the EU. Can the Switching off the electricity is not part of the global Minister give us an update on the position and the political agreement. It is right that we support those relationship between the EU and Russia in negotiations brave reformers in Zimbabwe who have committed on future energy supplies? themselves to the political process. I very much understand the hon. Gentleman’s scepticism about the ability of David Miliband: My hon. Friend raises a very important ZANU-PF to stick to the agreement, but it seems to me point. The development of a common energy policy vital that the international community remains united across Europe is one example where greater European in demanding that it do so. co-operation and co-ordination is needed. Engagement Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): It is extremely with Russia needs to be taken forward on a far more regrettable that the British Government’s representative coherent basis. That is one of the priorities for the new did not take part in the vote at the UN Human Rights Commission. It is certainly something that we will be Council on the Goldstone commission report, which I urging upon it. understand has now been referred to the UN Security Council. Will the Foreign Secretary assure me that there T9. [302628] Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): Just a few will be no further blockage of a full investigation of days into the Chilcot inquiry, it must be painfully Goldstone’s recommendations, and that if necessary, obvious to everybody both that the Hutton inquiry of the cases will be referred for international judicial review? 2003 was useless and that Tony Blair gravely misled the House and the country. Given that John Chilcot is David Miliband: I am sorry if there is any confusion chairing a non-statutory inquiry, what steps will the about that issue in my hon. Friend’s mind, but the Government take to ensure that Mr. Blair and his British Government have been absolutely clear that we immediate circle at the time are properly held to support an independent, full and transparent inquiry account for the enormity of what they did? into the credible allegations that the Goldstone report 973 Oral Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Oral Answers 974 makes. We have made that position absolutely clear in Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): public and in private, and that seems to me to be the May I commend Ministers for their continuing engagement right position to hold. That is different from giving a with the situation in Burma? However, will they, perhaps wholesale endorsement of the Goldstone report, which with their colleagues in the Department for International includes some items that we are clear are not accurate, Development, investigate reports coming out now that and also fails to take account of some important factors. aid to the Chin people on the border with India is being However, the report makes credible and serious allegations given in the form of loans on which 200 per cent. that should be investigated through a transparent and interest is charged? Surely that is not consistent with full inquiry. We continue to say that. other Government policy in the region.

Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): With reference to Mr. Ivan Lewis: The hon. Gentleman is right to say the previous answer by the Minister of State, Foreign that the situation in Burma is crucial. Right now, it is and Commonwealth Office, the hon. Member for Bury, poised at an incredibly important stage, and we believe South (Mr. Lewis), to his hon. Friend the Member for that we must maintain sanctions against the Burmese Bolton, South-East (Dr. Iddon), does the Foreign Office regime while engaging in a political and diplomatic understand the sense of injustice that is the principal process and seeking to secure the release of political motivating factor behind so much Islamist violence, prisoners—especially Aung San Suu Kyi. On the hon. and that a just settlement of the middle east peace Gentleman’s specific point, I shall write to him with the process is an absolutely vital British national interest? information. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government are absolutely clear that there is an urgent need for progress in the peace Mr. Speaker: I call Lindsay Hoyle. [Interruption.] process. We strongly advocate, as a matter of urgency, comprehensive negotiations towards a two-state solution—a Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): Nothing wrong viable contiguous Palestinian state alongside a secure with being tail-end Charlie, is there, Mr. Speaker? Israel. Those negotiations have to deal with the questions My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary laid a of the 1967 borders, of Jerusalem, of justice for Palestinian wreath on behalf of the overseas territories, but has the refugees, and of normalised relationships between the time not come for the overseas territories to be allowed Arab world and Israel. That is now a matter of urgency: to lay it? We had a meeting with a previous Minister, we share the hon. Gentleman’s analysis in that respect. who said that they accepted that the territories had grown up enough, so we should rid them of their Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab): Will the Government colonial masters and allow them to lay a wreath themselves. accept the results of the election in Honduras last Sunday—and if so, why? Chris Bryant rose— Chris Bryant: We made it clear before the elections that we believed that President Zelaya should not have Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): You agreed been removed from power, and that if the elections were with that when you were a Back Bencher. to be valid, they had to be engaged in under President Zelaya. Without his return before the end of his term, Chris Bryant: And my views have not changed. However, which is at the end of January, it will be impossible to my hon. Friend the Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) believe that those were proper elections. However, we knows that the issue will be discussed in the Overseas recognise and welcome the fact that the elections that Territories Consultative Council next week. Let us hope did take place did so in a peaceful situation. that we can come to a conclusion that is suitable to all. 975 1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 976

Gary McKinnon (Extradition) “It is true that the Claimant’s offending conduct took place in this country. However, it was directed at the USA, and at computers in the USA; the information he accessed or could have accessed 3.34 pm was US information; its confidentiality and sensitivity were American; and any damage that was inflicted was in the USA. The witnesses Mr. David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con) (Urgent who can address the damage done by his offences are in Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home America...However, it is not for this Court to decide where he Department if he will make a statement on his decision should be prosecuted. The decision is that of the DPP.As appears not to intervene to stop Gary McKinnon’s extradition from the preceding paragraphs of this judgment, he cannot be faulted for considering that, other things being equal, the Claimant to the United States. should be prosecuted in the USA.” Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing this urgent He expressed the view that it would be question on behalf of my constituent. “manifestly unsatisfactory in the extreme” for Mr. McKinnon to be tried in the UK and refused The Secretary of State for the Home Department permission for this aspect to be judicially reviewed. (Alan Johnson): Gary McKinnon is accused of serious criminal offences. He is alleged to have repeatedly hacked Secondly, the Court ruled on 31 July that the decision into US Government computer networks over a period of the Home Secretary that the extradition of Gary of 13 months, including 97 US military computers from McKinnon to the US would not amount to a breach of which he deleted vital operating systems and then copied his human rights was also correct. The Lord Justice encrypted information on to his own computer, shutting said: down the entire US army’s military district of Washington’s “Ultimately, I have to weigh the impressive medical evidence computer network for 24 hours. During interviews under adduced by the Claimant against the severity involved in Article 3. I have no doubt that he will find extradition to, and trial and caution, Mr. McKinnon admitted to much of the conduct sentence and detention in the USA, very difficult indeed. His he is accused of. mental health will suffer. There are risks of worse, including A great deal has been made of the perceived imbalance suicide. But if I compare his condition with those considered in in UK-US extradition arrangements in respect of probable the authorities to which I have referred above, even taking full cause versus reasonable suspicion. While I am clear that account of the (in my view undesirable) possibility of his being prosecuted in this country, his case does not approach Article 3 no such imbalance exists, as Mr. McKinnon has admitted severity.” the conduct which has given rise to the extradition request, this issue is academic in his case. This aside, Following that decision, Mr. McKinnon’s lawyers made under the terms of the Extradition Act 2003, I can fresh representations, including additional medical evidence. prevent an extradition only in very specific circumstances: I have carefully considered those representations and I where the person in question could be sentenced to am clear that the information that his lawyers have death if convicted; where there is a chance of that provided is not materially different from that placed person being tried for crimes committed before that before the High Court earlier this year and does not extradition which were not specified in the extradition demonstrate that sending Mr. McKinnon to the United request; or where the person has previously been extradited States would breach his human rights. to the UK from another country, or transferred here by There are legitimate concerns about Mr. McKinnon’s the International Criminal Court, and no consent has health, and the United States authorities have provided been given to their being extradited elsewhere. assurances, which were before the High Court in July, that his needs will be met. It is also clear from the Outside of the statutory extradition scheme, the courts proceedings to date that there is no real risk that have made it clear that the only circumstances in which Mr. McKinnon, if convicted, will serve any of his I could prevent extradition would be where the evidence sentence in a supermax prison. Should Mr. McKinnon demonstrates that extradition would be a breach of be extradited, charged and convicted in the US and seek human rights. If it would breach human rights to repatriation to the UK to serve his sentence in this proceed with extradition, I would have to halt proceedings. country, the Government will progress his application If it would not, it would be unlawful for me to do so. at the very earliest opportunity. Mr. McKinnon has challenged his extradition in the As I have said at every stage of these proceedings, we district court, the High Court, with the Law Lords, and will not commence extradition proceedings until all in the European Court of Human Rights, all of whom legal avenues that Mr. McKinnon wishes to pursue have have ruled that the extradition should go ahead. Following been exhausted. He can lodge a judicial review within the diagnosis of Asperger’s syndrome in August 2008, seven days of this decision, and he can appeal to the he made fresh representations to the then Home Secretary ECHR within 14 days of the same date. I am currently claiming that because of his medical condition his considering a request from Mr. McKinnon’s lawyers for extradition would breach the European convention on an extension of the seven-day time limit. human rights. The then Home Secretary decided in October 2008 that the evidence Mr. McKinnon submitted Mr. Burrowes: I do not propose to ask the Home did not meet the threshold needed to constitute a breach Secretary to use any general discretion that he says he of the ECHR. Mr. McKinnon challenged in the High does not have, nor today do I wish to highlight the Court this decision and the decision by the Crown unfairness of the UK-US extradition treaty. I want him Prosecution Service that there were no grounds for him to focus on the medical evidence, which he has considered to be tried in this country. and not disputed, and the limited human rights discretion On 31 July 2009, the High Court handed down both that he accepts he has. judgments. In its judgment on the Director of Public Does the Home Secretary not accept that Professor Prosecution’s decision that Mr. McKinnon should be Jeremy Turk’s report of 8 October raised new and tried in the US, Lord Justice Stanley Burnton said this: material evidence, namely that Gary McKinnon 977 Gary McKinnon (Extradition)1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 978

“is now suffering from an exacerbation of his very serious Major options to choose from; there is either a breach of Depressive Disorder…aggravated and complicated by anxiety article 3 of the European declaration of human rights and panic attacks” or there is not. My view is that there is not. That can be aligned to his having Asperger’s syndrome? Given that challenged in the courts. he now places Gary McKinnon at an “even higher risk of self-harm and suicide” Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): Throughout this than after his earlier report, and concludes that wretched process, and again today, the Home Secretary has sought to minimise the amount of discretion that he “suicide is now a real probability and will be an almost certain has. He told the McKinnon family, and said again inevitability should he experience extradition”, today, that the only issue that he could consider was and that there is a high probability that he whether Gary McKinnon’s human rights were being “will require inpatient psychiatric containment”, breached by his extradition. Of course I accept the surely he has established a real risk of human rights Home Secretary’s version of his powers, and I therefore being breached should extradition proceed. Putting it ask him to consider some questions in that narrow more bluntly, how ill and vulnerable does Gary McKinnon context. need to be not to be extradited to the United States? First, is it proportionate or a breach of human rights The Home Secretary wants to rely on previous court to extradite someone in the context of what has been judgments. Given that Lord Justice Stanley Burnton alleged? The US prosecutors say that Mr. McKinnon indicated that if Gary McKinnon were not extradited was attempting to he could be prosecuted in this country, how can it be “influence and affect the US government by intimidation and proportionate to allow the extradition of a UK citizen coercion”. who is suicidal and sectionable? Is it not the case that He allegedly hacked into US army computers and left far from being powerless to stop Gary McKinnon’s messages attacking US foreign policy. Is that really extradition, in the light of the medical evidence the intimidating or coercive to the US military? More to the Home Secretary has shown himself and his Government point, does the Home Secretary seriously believe that to be spineless? that would be the action of a terrorist? Secondly, does Mr. McKinnon really need to be Alan Johnson: This is a difficult decision, and not one extradited to stand trial? As the Home Secretary will that can be made by the hon. Gentleman. I admire him have seen, there are reports that the Crown Prosecution for the way in which he has represented his constituent, Service wanted to prosecute Mr. McKinnon in this and I met him just a couple of weeks ago on a one-to-one country for computer misuse, but that those efforts were basis. I understand that completely, but I am the only blocked. Is that true? Thirdly, is it not a breach of his person who can make this decision and I have to make it human rights to send a man with Asperger’s and depression on the basis of the facts, and all the facts. It is a to face a possible 60-year sentence? The Home Secretary quasi-judicial decision, and Lord Justice Burnton did will have seen the opinion of one psychiatrist that that not say that if Gary McKinnon were not extradited he will amount to a death sentence. It is, of course, horribly could be tried in this country. I have quoted what he ironic that it would be illegal to send someone to said—he was absolutely clear that that is a matter for another country to face an explicit death sentence. the Director of Public Prosecutions. It is not for politicians Fourthly, will the Home Secretary not accept that the to decide whether someone is prosecuted and where, imbalance in the Extradition Act 2003 means that a and he said that it would be British citizen facing extradition has fewer human rights “manifestly unsatisfactory in the extreme” than a US citizen would have if the position were were Mr. McKinnon to be tried anywhere other in the reversed? Baroness Scotland, the Government’s Attorney- US. General, said in 2003: On the question of the medical evidence, Professor “when we make extradition requests to the United States we shall need to submit sufficient evidence to establish ‘probable cause’. Turk’s diagnosis and opinions were handed to me by the That is a lower test than prima facie but a higher threshold than hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Angela Browning), we ask of the United States”—[Official Report, House of Lords, who is sitting next to the hon. Gentleman. I stopped the 16 December 2003; Vol. 655, c. 1063.] clock to look at that diagnosis and those opinions very Why does the Home Secretary disagree with his Attorney- thoroughly and carefully, but they do not raise any General that the extradition treaty is unbalanced and issues that are materially, let alone fundamentally, different unfair? from those considered by Professor Baron-Cohen and Dr. Berney in the reports that were before the High Finally, does the Home Secretary not recognise that Court in June 2009. the Extradition Act 2003 was put in place to ensure that terrorists did not escape justice? It was never intended Lord Justice Burnton said that Gary McKinnon’s to deal with a case such as the one that we are discussing. case Can he not see that his actions regarding Gary McKinnon “does not approach Article 3 severity”, have damaged this country’s reputation, damaged relations and the hon. Gentleman asked which conditions did. between Britain and our most important ally and, most Lord Justice Burnton pointed out a whole series of importantly, damaged a very vulnerable and sick young decisions in cases involving people with bipolar disorder, man? and people with other very serious medical conditions indeed—conditions that many would say were much Alan Johnson: I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman more serious than the medical condition of Gary accepts the fact about the so-called discretion. My McKinnon. Those cases did not reach article 3 severity. discretion—if the word is suitable—allows me to look Difficult though the decision is, I have no menu of at Gary McKinnon’s case against the tests that are set 979 Gary McKinnon (Extradition)1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 980

[Alan Johnson] in favour of an unequal treaty with the United States. Nobody contests that he has Asperger’s or that that out in law. As it was after Gary McKinnon had been condition has been diagnosed since the beginning of the through the district court, the High Court, the House of process and has got substantially worse. That alone Lords and the European Court of Human Rights that should be enough to merit some compassion for his he was diagnosed as having Asperger’s, that was a condition and mitigation of the penalty for a crime that supervening diagnosis, which meant that the then Home he admits, as the Home Secretary knows. Secretary had to look at the matter against the European Does the Home Secretary recognise that the clear declaration on human rights. risks to Mr. McKinnon’s health and even life have The hon. Gentleman talked about Gary McKinnon’s increased since the beginning of the process and will offences. This is not a matter of my finding Gary increase further if he is not tried here but is extradited? McKinnon innocent or guilty. There are very serious Does he recognise from the additional medical evidence charges against Mr. McKinnon—the hon. Gentleman that the problems faced by Gary McKinnon are more does not contest that and neither, incidentally, does the substantial than they were at the beginning? Does that hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes), risk not worry him, particularly given the fine balance Mr. McKinnon’s constituency MP. They are serious that he has to strike in deciding when there is a breach charges and Mr. McKinnon has to answer those charges. of someone’s human rights? The Director of Public Prosecutions has decided that May I also ask whether the Prime Minister has that has to take place in the US. There is no further considered this case? Will the Government now put the right of appeal—the High Court would not allow a interests of justice for an increasingly vulnerable British judicial review. So we come to whether that breaches citizen ahead of their relations with a foreign Government? Gary McKinnon’s human rights. All the legal cases Is the Home Secretary prepared to accept the real risk quoted by Lord Justice Burnton relate to medical conditions that he will have the life of a man on his hands? and mental health conditions that are far worse than those that apply to Mr. McKinnon. Alan Johnson: I appreciate the hon. Member’s concern. The hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) asked He came to see me with the right hon. Member for whether there is truth in the rumour that we were going Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) and my right to prosecute Mr. McKinnon in the UK. No, there is no hon. Friend the Member for Oldham, West and Royton truth in that rumour. All the actions in this case are (Mr. Meacher) in the summer, and we discussed this clear for anyone to see from the time Mr. McKinnon issue, as I am willing to do on every occasion. I accept was charged onwards through all the processes of the the vulnerability of Gary McKinnon, as I accept the law and then through the processes of the law again. vulnerability in many cases that go through the courts The hon. Gentleman talked, once again, about an and in which a decision on extradition has to be taken. I imbalance between the level of evidence that the US note that I have been called spineless and a brave man must apply to the UK in order to get someone extradited within five minutes. and the evidence that we must put before the US courts. I do not argue that these decisions do not need very He said that there is an imbalance between probable careful contemplation, and I have thought about this cause and reasonable suspicion. I pointed out that that one long and hard. I have looked at every single word is academic in the case of Mr. McKinnon because he submitted by Gary McKinnon’s lawyers on the evidence has admitted the charges. However, members of both of his medical condition. As I have said previously, that main Opposition parties have argued about this point. is not materially different from the evidence that was That argument was made in 2003, when the treaty was before Lord Justice Burnton in June and on which he being concluded. What has happened since? In how made his pronouncement on 30 July. I quoted Lord many cases have we failed to get extradition from the Justice Burnton in my statement saying that he accepts US? None. Zilch. Nil. None whatsoever. Every case we that there is a risk of suicide, and that is a heavy burden have made to the US using probable cause has been on any Home Secretary’s shoulders—as the hon. Member successful. In contrast, there are seven cases in which for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) said in his final point. the US has sought extradition from this country that Nevertheless, my job is to uphold the law—to look at are still held up in the system. the European convention on human rights and decide The hon. Gentleman said that my decision damages whether article 3 is being breached in this case. My relationships between this country and the US. That is a decision, based on all the evidence, is that article 3 bizarre interpretation given the serious nature of these rights are not being breached in the case of Gary crimes and the fact that America, a friendly state with a McKinnon. Hon. Members may disagree, but I hope mature democratic judicial system, wants to extradite they do not think that that decision was made in any Gary McKinnon to face trial. The interpretation, were other circumstances than after the most careful that to affect our relationship with the US in any way, contemplation. should be the other way around. Several hon. Members rose— Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): The Home Secretary is, in my view, a very brave man to hold out his judgment Mr. Speaker: Order. No fewer than 23 Members are of the medical condition—and of the worsening of the seeking to catch my eye. Naturally, I am keen to medical condition—of Gary McKinnon against such accommodate as many as a reasonable allocation of overwhelming evidence as we have heard from the hon. time will allow, but I appeal to each right hon. and hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr. Burrowes). Gary Member to ask a single, short supplementary question McKinnon is a vulnerable British citizen who has become and, of course, to the Home Secretary to provide an more vulnerable and whose interests are being ignored economical reply. 981 Gary McKinnon (Extradition)1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 982

Liz Blackman (Erewash) (Lab): My right hon. Friend Chambers gave evidence to the Committee and said mentioned a brief conversation that he had with the exactly what I have said today: if there were a supervening US authorities about how Gary McKinnon might be diagnosis—it was not in these words, but this is the gist supported, should he be extradited. Could he flesh that of what they said—I, like my predecessor, have the out in a great deal more detail? Unconnected, but a discretion, when all the court cases are finished and if point worth making, is the fact that many adults with something new arises, to decide whether the case meets Asperger’s are never diagnosed, and a late diagnosis is article 3 severity. That is what Matrix Chambers said in not unusual. its evidence to the Committee, and that is what I am saying, so there is absolutely no difference between us. Mr. Speaker: I know that the Home Secretary will I think we have established, with the very honest provide one answer to two questions. remarks of the hon. Member for Ashford, that actually we all accept where my discretion—if we want to call it Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend is right in her final that—lies. There might arise fresh evidence. When the comment. It is not unusual to have a late diagnosis. I did hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton gave me the not mention any conversation with the US authorities. evidence on Gary McKinnon and what was said to be The question of bail would be entirely for the independent his worsening condition, of course I looked at the judiciary. If Gary McKinnon were extradited and if he matter again. That is what my predecessor did as well. were convicted—and all the evidence would have to be Incidentally, we have now had three Home Secretaries placed before a court—and if he were given a custodial making the same decision. This is a matter for the sentence, the procedure under the transfer of sentenced Home Secretary, of course, but I believe that anyone in persons convention would kick in. As I said in the letter my position would have come to the same conclusion, to Gary McKinnon’s mother and to his lawyers, we irrespective of how difficult it might be. stand ready to implement that procedure at the appropriate time. That time is a long way away, because at the moment Gary McKinnon has not been convicted of Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): anything. This year, the House passed a groundbreaking Act on autism, which was the first ever disability-specific legislation Angela Browning (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con): I and recognised the unique nature and needs of people hope that the Home Secretary will accept that Gary diagnosed with autism. How can a Government on the McKinnon was born with Asperger’s syndrome, and one hand legislate to recognise that unique condition, that will have contributed to his behaviour with the but on the other hand discount the expert medical computers in the first place. It would help Gary McKinnon’s advice reinforcing the point that, in this case, extradition state of mind if he knew now that if he were to receive a is wholly inappropriate and potentially lethal to Gary? custodial sentence, he would serve it in the UK. Instead Quite frankly, is there no logic, justice or humanity left of the Home Secretary saying that that is down the in the Government? track, if he would make it clear now that the Home Office would support that, it might help Gary McKinnon’s state of mind. Alan Johnson: My right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett), who holds a position within the National Autistic Society, previously made it Alan Johnson: I appreciate what the hon. Lady says, clear to those who were lobbying him over this case that and much of the medical evidence was about Gary he appreciated the problems of autism. I, too, appreciate McKinnon’s fear of serving time in a US jail. The them. I was Secretary of State for Health and understand problem at the moment is that the case is still in the completely why that legislation was passed. However, judicial process. Gary McKinnon’s lawyers still have an the hon. Lady is too sensible and intelligent to suggest, opportunity to appeal, not only for judicial review of evenly remotely, that because someone has autism, they my decision, but to the courts. I do not want to get into do not have to face the consequences of their—alleged— that level of detail. It must be right, just as with other offences. That is not the case. As I have mentioned, we extradition cases, that we let matters unfold and cross have before us the case of someone with bipolar disorder each appropriate bridge when we come to it. I am well fighting a similar case, and there are other cases of aware of the concerns that the hon. Lady expresses. At people with very serious medical complaints. We have the moment, we have an extradition case, not a trial or a to look at Gary McKinnon’s case with compassion and conviction. test it through the courts. We have done that, and I believe our decision is the right one. Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): I have respect for the Home Secretary, but I believe that he has made the wrong decision for the wrong reasons. He gave evidence Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab): Does the Home Secretary to the Home Affairs Committee, and I wrote to him not appreciate that the vast majority of the public, expressing the Committee’s unanimous view that his listening to his fine words, will not understand a word scope for discretion was wider. We are prepared to of the way in which he has used one bit of an article and publish our legal advice; will he do the same? If fresh another bit of an article? They will see the Government evidence comes before him, is he prepared to do what he not standing up for a British citizen in a very difficult did on a previous occasion, and for which we were situation—not someone who does not want to be tried, grateful, and stop the clock and consider that evidence? but someone who wants to be tried in this country. Will they not regard the French Government’s treatment of Alan Johnson: My right hon. Friend, in his Select someone such as Roman Polanski, who is not even in Committee report, did not unearth a different view on their country, as the way in which citizens should be whether I had discretion. Two lawyers from Matrix stood up for? Will the Home Secretary not see that, 983 Gary McKinnon (Extradition)1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 984

[Kate Hoey] about Gary McKinnon’s possible extradition, I urge my right hon. Friend to consider again whether there is any even at this stage, he could find a way around this if he way in which he can take steps to prevent his being really wanted to prevent Gary McKinnon from being extradited. Many people in this country would certainly extradited? welcome that. I urge my right hon. Friend to think again and try to find some way of making it happen. Mr. Speaker: May I say that I think that my exhortation for single questions has momentarily been forgotten? Alan Johnson: It is just not good enough for a Home However, I am sure that it will be remembered now. Secretary to be told to find “some way”, irrespective of what the European Court of Human Rights or the law Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend is wrong to say that I says. It is not the Home Secretary’s job to be popular or am trying to take one bit from here and one bit from to please whatever media campaign happens to be on there. Those bits and pieces are the European convention the go; it is the Home Secretary’s job to uphold the on human rights—they are very important, are now law—to look at things carefully and make the right part of our law through the Human Rights Act 1998 judgment. That is what I have done. and are crucial. Cases have to be judged against it. My hon. Friend states the opinion of the public as if Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): As the she is the arbiter of public opinion. People in this Home Secretary knows, extradition is based on the country want to see a proper extradition that is fair and principle of reciprocity. Let me ask him this question: that not only allows us to bring criminals back from does he think there would be the slightest chance of an abroad—as we have done on many occasions, including American citizen being extradited to the United Kingdom from America—but allows other countries where offences in similar circumstances and on similar evidence? are committed to have the same benefits. In the case of America, I have already set out the Alan Johnson: I hear this kind of argument all the clear views of the courts. It is not for me or any other time. Yes is absolutely my answer to that question. Just politician to decide whether to prosecute. The Law as we have extradited more than 30 people since the Lord, Lord Justice Lloyd said in the other place that it treaty came in, we have not been refused on any occasion, is absolutely wrong for any politician to decide whether so this kind of faint anti-Americanism—as if the to prosecute—and, by definition, where to prosecute—any Americans’ system is totally corrupt and our system is individual. That was not a matter for me; it was a brilliant—is not something I accept. Nor do I accept matter for the prosecuting authorities. They have decided that America would not extradite somebody over here that Gary McKinnon should stand trial in America. in exactly the same circumstances.

Mr. John Randall (Uxbridge) (Con): Will the Home Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): I listened carefully Secretary acquaint himself with the case of a young to the closing sentences of the Secretary of State’s man in the London borough of Hillingdon who suffered statement, which I want to look at in detail. He has from the same condition as Gary McKinnon and who basically inherited a Blunkett blunder, which is the hacked into BT’s system? He was arrested, but BT treaty. The mood of the House is such that we want to decided to drop the charges and instead invited him to revisit that treaty, in order that caveats can be put in. work on its security. He is now successfully undertaking Will he consider bringing forward emergency legislation a degree in IT. Perhaps the way forward might be to try so we can address that issue? to persuade the US authorities to drop the charges, in order for Gary McKinnon’s undoubted skills to be used Alan Johnson: No, and for three reasons. Number for good instead of bad. one, no one has given an argument explaining why probable cause is less of a hurdle to cross than reasonable Alan Johnson: All that can come out at the trial. As suspicion; none. Number two, there is not a single for whether that case was serious or trivial, all I know is case—[Interruption.] An hon. Member on the Opposition that no one has argued that the criminal charges in this Front Bench says that the Attorney-General said that. case are not very serious. It happened just after the In a debate in another place on precisely this issue just 3,000 deaths on 9/11, at a time when America was two weeks ago, when an amendment was tabled to the particularly sensitive. The Americans will decide, but then Policing and Crime Bill to say that we should the decision of the public prosecutors in this country is revisit the issue in relation to forum—where an individual that Gary McKinnon should be tried in America. That would be prosecuted—and when the House of Lords has been upheld in the courts; indeed, the High Court successfully overturned an amendment of that nature, refused to give a judicial review and it was aware of all the Attorney-General made it absolutely plain that it is the other cases, including the one that the hon. Gentleman a matter of form against fact. mentioned. Nevertheless, the court decided that America When the Attorney-General was a Home Office Minister, is the proper place for Gary McKinnon to be tried. As she talked at this Dispatch Box about the legislation for his defence at that trial, I am sure that the hon. that we were debating, but which was not then in place. Gentleman’s comments will form part of it. We now have four or five years’ experience of this legislation, and my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ (Andrew Mackinlay) cannot point to one single case—and Co-op): Nobody reasonable in the House could dispute nor could my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester, that the Home Secretary has a difficult decision to make East (Keith Vaz) at the Home Affairs Committee—or in this case, and he has clearly considered it carefully. any argument in fact showing that there was an imbalance However, given that there is so much public concern between the two Acts. I repeat: they could not point to 985 Gary McKinnon (Extradition)1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 986 one single argument. In relation to Gary McKinnon, of Rights. The home secretary should not hide behind the weasel course, the issue is academic because he has admitted to words of the European Convention when he should be following the charges. the law laid down by our own historic bill of rights.” Will the right hon. Gentleman please answer that? Mr. Douglas Hogg (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con): The right hon. Gentleman really must understand Alan Johnson: Yes, I read that piece. The courts—the that there is a fundamental difference between the situation district court, the High Court, the Law Lords, the in the United States and here. The extradition of the European Court in Strasbourg—have all looked at this UK citizen to the United States does not require prima case and they have looked at it as against the law. Now facie evidence that the offence has been committed; the there is an opportunity for them to look at it again. The extradition of a US citizen to the United Kingdom right hon. Gentleman needs to recognise that the same requires probable cause. These things are different, and arguments applied to the NatWest three. We were told the matter must be looked at afresh. about them that they would not get bail, but they did; we were told that they would spend two years in a Alan Johnson: I have been patronised by less wealthy maximum security prison, which they did not; and we people than the right hon. and learned Gentleman. Let were told that they would face 20 years in jail, which me say to him that probable cause is defined in the US they did not. All the terrible things predicted to take courts as place in the case of the NatWest three did not take place. “reasonable grounds for belief of guilt”; The hon. Members for Chesham and Amersham while reasonable suspicion is defined by Lord Devlin (Mrs. Gillan) and for Tiverton and Honiton made the like this: right point about what was the right time to look at “The circumstances of the case should be such as a reasonable those specific issues. At the moment, I believe that it is man acting without passion or prejudice would fairly have suspected absolutely right that this extradition proceed, but there the person of having committed the offence”. will be a time for a legal challenge. The first point, then, is that that is as close as two Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab): I different legal systems could be. The second point is recognise the very difficult dilemma faced by my right that in all the years during which this treaty has been in hon. Friend, but is it not about time that we asked our place, there has not been an issue of fact that backs up American friends—I use the word “friends”deliberately—to the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s argument. The examine the case again in the context of the benefits third point is that this has nothing to do with Gary they have accrued through Gary McKinnon’s work? McKinnon’s case because no one had to prove reasonable Had he not masterfully broken through their security suspicion or probable cause, as he has admitted at least systems, those systems would be vulnerable today. It is to a large chunk of the offences. about time the Americans recognised that. I am not in Mr. Tom Watson (West Bromwich, East) (Lab): I do favour of people “testing” my burglar alarm, but in this not envy my right hon. Friend, who for the many years instance Gary McKinnon has done a huge favour to the I have known him has always campaigned for justice. Is American state. not the lesson from this case that there is at best a Alan Johnson: I do not accept that argument. It is cross-jurisdictional opacity in the way we interpret treaties akin to the argument that if people left their windows for alleged crimes conducted in cyberspace, which will open— be an increasing problem in the years to come, so we need a piece of work that looks at all our treaties and Andrew Miller: He did not steal anything. how we interpret this problem? Alan Johnson: Please. The argument is that if someone Alan Johnson: I, too, have great respect for my hon. is accused of serious criminal offences—and no one Friend, and certainly for his expertise in this area. I have doubts that that applies to Gary McKinnon— seen nothing, however, that suggests that there is any need for such an investigation or examination. Many Andrew Miller: He did not steal anything. cases now take place in cyberspace, and I think the Alan Johnson: My hon. Friend keeps saying that courts are perfectly able to decide them and the prosecuting Gary McKinnon did not steal anything; I am not saying authorities to handle them. I see no need either in this he did. What I am saying is that we do not judge such case or in other cases of a similar nature under consideration cases on the basis of whether or not it was easy to at the moment, particularly those concerning extradition, commit the crime, or whether the person involved made to review how the law works in these circumstances. it easier for the crime to be committed. We do not do that in relation to any kind of offence, and we should David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con): I am not do it in relation to offences in cyberspace. not going to be rude to the Home Secretary because he is in a very difficult position—one forecast by Conservative Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): Having listened Members in 2003 and then in 2006, when the right hon. carefully to the Home Secretary, I conclude that he Gentleman’s Government put this foolish law in place. thinks that the actions of the United States authorities Much of what he said rested on legal advice. He will are reasonable in the circumstances. Does he also think have seen from today’s newspapers the comment from that they are wise? Geoffrey Robertson, the senior—very senior—human rights lawyer who said: Alan Johnson: I think that they are reasonable actions. “To send a British citizen to the US, without any right to bail, As for whether we would be in exactly in the same to face 10 years in prison for a crime for which he would be position if someone had been hacking into the United unlikely to receive any custodial sentence if tried here amounts to Kingdom’s defences over a 12-month period, with the ‘cruel and unusual punishment’ in breach of our 1689 Bill of same effect and at that particular time, and if that 987 Gary McKinnon (Extradition)1 DECEMBER 2009 Gary McKinnon (Extradition) 988

[Alan Johnson] issue of extradition? That would obviously bring an end to what is a very stressful experience for this young person had left the messages that were left at that man. particular time, I am absolutely sure that Members would be outraged if the United States refused to Alan Johnson: At the risk of repeating myself, let me extradite the person responsible to this country. say that I will not look at all the medical evidence again. I have already looked at it; that is why the hon. Member Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): This for Enfield, Southgate has laid an urgent question in the is the sad case of a sad middle-aged man who is alleged House. Secondly, it is the job of the Director of Public to have deleted part of American security computer Prosecutions to decide whether, and where, to prosecute. systems. That has led both Opposition Front-Bench That has been upheld in the courts, and on 31 July the spokespersons today to state in terms that anyone with High Court refused permission to go to judicial review. Asperger’s should never be extradited or tried. Does my That issue has now gone; the only issue left is whether right hon. Friend agree that that approach is an insult extradition would breach Mr. McKinnon’s human rights. to people with Asperger’s, who have a range of responsibilities and capabilities including, in some cases, John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): Tomorrow, we criminal responsibility and criminal capability? will debate the Equality Bill, which I support and whose aim is to protect people who are disabled. Does the Alan Johnson: I agree that a diagnosis of Asperger’s Home Secretary not see an inconsistency between what does not mean that it is a breach of human rights to be the Equality Bill is intended to achieve and this decision? extradited to face trial for serious criminal offences. Every court in the land has said that, and it has been Alan Johnson: I do not see any contradiction whatever. said by the highest court authority—the High Court. I am making a decision based on whether Mr. McKinnon’s We will look at the facts again. We have looked at the article 3 human rights would be breached. I am glad the fresh medical and psychiatric evidence, and that is open hon. Gentleman and his party support the Equality to be tested in the courts as well, but as yet the courts Bill, but so far as I am aware, nobody is suggesting that have decided that this does not approach article 3 people who are disabled should never be prosecuted. severity. Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): When I was employed as a public prosecutor, it was my Mrs. Iris Robinson (Strangford) (DUP): The decision duty to make decisions on whether or not to prosecute will grate on the people of Northern Ireland, who for based on what was in the public interest. The Home years have witnessed political and judicial protection Secretary has got compelling evidence today that the for IRA terrorist murderers who fled to America and decision not to prosecute exposes Gary McKinnon to were never extradited despite many requests. In the light the probable—if not the inevitable—risk of his committing of that, will the Secretary of State reconsider his view? suicide. I do not see how that can be in the public interest, and regardless of the question of judicial review, Alan Johnson: I understand how deeply the hon. why, in these circumstances and with that evidence, is Lady feels about the issue, given her experience, but it is the DPP not being invited to reconsider his decision not not my job or that of the courts—and I do not think to prosecute? any Member would suggest that it was—to make such quasi-judicial decisions on the basis of anything other Alan Johnson: Because the High Court ruled, for the than the law and anything other than the European reasons I explained in my statement—[Interruption.] declaration of human rights. It is absolutely not the The High Court ruled that it was a matter for the DPP case, in my view, that a decision such as this should be to decide—[Interruption.] Well, if the hon. Gentleman made on any kind of tit-for-tat basis which may or may will just be quiet, I will give him the answer. The High not exist in respect of decisions that America may have Court decided, quite rightly, that it was the DPP’s made in the past. decision. He felt that the decision in this case was right. He set out the reasons why it was right—and I have set Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North) (Lab): As the Home them out again in my statement—and he refused to Secretary is apparently looking again at all the medical allow judicial review. My deliberations have nothing to evidence and the issues surrounding the case, will he do with the decision to prosecute, or where to prosecute. look again at the possibility of a prosecution being My deliberations are about whether this decision breaches mounted in the United Kingdom to avoid the whole Gary McKinnon’s human rights. 989 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 990 Proposals European Financial Services Proposals Commission published its draft legislative proposals to establish a new supervisory architecture, and I look [Relevant documents: Thirty-second Report from the forward to discussing the issues again today. European Scrutiny Committee, Session 2008-09, Chapter 2, HC 19-xxx, and the First Report from the Committee, It might be helpful if I first set out the proposals Session 2009-10, Chapters 1 and 2, HC 5-i; and Sixteenth contained in the documents that we shall be debating Report from the Treasury Committee, Session 2008-09, this afternoon. The Commission’s legislative package on the Committee’s Opinion on proposals for European establishes at the macro-prudential level a European Financial Supervision, HC 1088, and the First Report systemic risk board, comprised of EU central banks, to from the Committee, Session 2009-10, Proposals for identify risks in the financial system. The body will European financial supervision: further report, HC 37.] issue warnings where these risks are deemed significant, and will, where appropriate, issue recommendations on how to mitigate these risks. 4.22 pm The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah Mr. William Cash (Stone) (Con): As I am a member McCarthy-Fry): I beg to move, of the ESC, I am sure the Minister will understand my wishing to draw attention to the fact that in our most That this House takes note of the following European Union recent report we have, effectively, condemned the idea Documents— that we should rush forward with these proposals. There (a) 3645/09, Proposal for a Council Decision entrusting the are many good reasons for that, which are set out in our European Central Bank with concerning the functioning of the report. Furthermore, does the Minister accept the following European Systemic Risk Board; point, which I have repeatedly made to the Prime Minister (b) 13648/09, Proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—this is, effectively, and the Council on Community macro prudential oversight of the financial system and establishing a European Systemic Risk a sell-out to the process of majority voting, and it will Board; do immense damage to the City of London, which accounts for an enormous percentage of our GDP? (c) 13652/09, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Banking Does she also agree that there is no justification for the Authority; speed with which this is being done, or for handing over (d) 13653/09, Proposal for a Regulation of the European the whole of this ramshackle structure to the European Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Insurance Court of Justice? and Occupational Pensions Authority; (e) 13654/09, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The hon. Gentleman will not Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Securities be surprised to learn that I disagree with him on this and Markets Authority; and that I think it is important that we have a European (f) 13656/09, Commission Staff Working Document–Possible harmonisation of regulation. That was agreed at not amendments to Financial Services legislation–accompanying only the European level, but the global level. I think we document to— would all agree that we are looking for a harmonisation (i) 13652/09 of regulation at a global level, and the EU process can move forward on that. (ii) 13653/09 (iii) 13654/09; Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): Will the (g) 13657/09, Commission Staff Working Document–Impact Minister give way? Assessment–accompanying document to— (i) 13645/09 Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I shall finish answering the (ii) 13648/09 original intervention before I give way to my hon. Friend. We still need to refine some pieces of the (iii) 13652/09 proposals before us today. I shall go on to discuss where (iv) 13653/09 we are disappointed and where the legislative proposals (v) 13654/09; did not follow the agreement reached at the ECOFIN (h) 13658/09, Commission Staff Working Document– June negotiations; however, the negotiations are ongoing. Summary of the Impact Assessment; and (i) 15093/09, Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament Mr. Todd: Am I right in thinking that the author of and of the Council amending Directives 1998/26/EC, 2002/87/EC, the origins of these proposals is Monsieur de Larosière, 2003/6/EC, 2003/41/EC, 2003/71/EC, 2004/39/EC, 2004/109/EC, who, as we heard yesterday, is apparently the patron 2005/60/EC, 2006/48/EC, 2006/49/EC and 2009/65/EC in respect saint of Conservative regulatory policy? [Interruption.] of the powers of the European Banking Authority, the European We can see the gestures being made by the hon. Member Insurance and Occupational Pensions Authority and the European for Stone (Mr. Cash), who presumably feels as Securities and Markets Authority; uncomfortable on this as I do. Could the Minister throw and endorses the Government’s approach to setting up a new light on the authorship? financial supervisory structure in the EU. First, I should like to thank the European Scrutiny Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Certainly the original proposals Committee for calling this debate on these extremely came from Jacques de Larosière in order to replace the important issues. As several hon. Members present will Lamfalussy level 3 committees in respect of the European remember, I took part in another of the Committee’s supervisory authorities. [Interruption.] debates back in June, when we had a very useful discussion of the European Commission’s initial proposals for Mr. Speaker: Order. The hon. Member for Stone European Union regulatory reform. Since then, however, (Mr. Cash) does not have to make sedentary references things have moved on somewhat. In September, the to the number or identity of Frenchmen. 991 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 992 Proposals Proposals Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): Will the talking about the first part of this package of proposals, Minister confirm that these micro regulatory authorities which is the European systemic risk board. The body will not have supervisory powers over national authorities? will issue warnings where the risks are deemed significant That assurance was given by Lord Myners in evidence and recommendations on how to mitigate these risks. to the European Scrutiny Committee, but it has been The Government strongly support the establishment of slightly altered—or certainly weakened and diluted— the ESRB. We believe it can act as an effective early-warning notably when the Minister responded to my debate in system, usefully identifying risks in the financial system Westminster Hall. Can she get back to the original and complementing the work of the Financial Stability position and give an unconditional undertaking that Board and the International Monetary Fund at the the new authorities will not have supervisory authority international level. over national supervisors or individual firms?

Stewart Hosie (Dundee, East) (SNP): I am happy Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Our negotiating position is with the idea of a new architecture and a global system, that the supervisory authorities will have absolutely no and I am happy with the ESRB and with the fact that it authority over individual firms, and that their only will issue warnings and take actions. However, one bit is power over supervisory authorities will be in cross-border missing from all this, and that makes it difficult to agree disputes. That will be our position going into the whether or not it makes sense. The regulatory framework negotiations tomorrow. for the derivatives, the default swaps and the counter-party risk—the technical regulation on the financial weapons Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): As I understand of mass destruction—is not yet in place. Will the Minister it, a representative of one of the supervisory authorities explain how that will work within the context of the can sit on the college of supervisors. Does the Minister ESRB and the other bits of the architecture that she think that that is appropriate, given that that could also is describing? That is the missing piece; we do not yet lead to the ESAs having some impact on the supervision have it. of individual firms?

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The hon. Gentleman is right to Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We are clear that none of the say that we do not have all the other directives in today. bodies being set up under this legislation should be able Today, we are examining the framework that will be to impact on the supervision of individual firms. Credit discussed at the ECOFIN meeting tomorrow. There will rating agencies are the only exception, as we did not be opportunity to discuss further—if the European consider that they posed a fiscal risk. Scrutiny Committee so wishes—those other directives that are still going through. Mr. Hoban: But, as I understand it, the European securities market authority will have jurisdiction over Stewart Hosie: I appreciate what the Minister is saying clearing houses. Will the Minister bring that up at and that ECOFIN will meet tomorrow, but it is difficult ECOFIN tomorrow? to see how to agree on a proposal for a board that will, rightly, issue recommendations and take actions— Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I do not want to pre-empt or presumably they will tighten up, weaken, amend or second-guess the ECOFIN negotiations that begin adjust regulation—when we do not yet have it. Can she tomorrow. Our line is that the authorities will have no not give us some kind of clue as to the regulatory direct powers over firms in emergencies and that there framework that will sit alongside this new architecture? will be no direct EU supervision of Community-wide Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am sorry to say that at this entities. The authorities will certainly not be able to stage I cannot. This is still a matter for negotiation conduct day-to-day supervision of individual firms. among the other member states; this is about the That is the line with which the Chancellor will go to overarching framework. ECOFIN tomorrow.

Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): I am sorry to Stewart Hosie: The European Scrutiny Committee interrupt the Minister, as she is clearly getting into her report says on page 34 that the purpose of establishing a stride. Before she leaves the subject of the ESRB, a system of financial supervision is, among other things, proposal with which she says she is happy, will she say to “raise supervisory standards” and to impose “binding whether or not she is happy that there is no requirement mediation”. Will the Minister confirm that that “binding that the non-eurozone countries should be represented mediation” will apply not to single firms but to national on it? systems?

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I will come to that later in my Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The binding mediation will speech, but just to satisfy the hon. Gentleman I should apply to national supervisors in cross-border disputes, say that we do think that there should be sufficient not to individual firms. input from the non-eurozone member states. I shall discuss that, because it was a specific question asked by Mr. Fallon: Will the Minister give way? the European Scrutiny Committee. The European supervisory authorities will replace Sarah McCarthy-Fry: May I get a little further with the current so-called “Lamfalussy level 3 committees” my speech? I shall give way to the hon. Gentleman then. in banking, securities, insurance and occupational pensions. We think it is important to have more effective rule- The new authorities will have enhanced roles and tasks, making and enforcement, as that will increase the efficiency with the aim of improving the quality and consistency of cross-border firms operating in the EU. The authorities of regulation and supervision in the EU. will be required to conduct supervisory peer review to 993 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 994 Proposals Proposals ensure consistently high standards. As I have said, they fiscal impact if they fail, there could be central supervision. will also have powers to mediate in disputes between As a result, it is clear that there can be no direct supervisory authorities. The Government support the European crisis management powers over firms, or authorities having those roles, as a way of improving other powers that undermine national supervision. the quality and consistency of supervision and enhancing Furthermore, it has been made clear that the new stability. framework should not impinge on member states’ fiscal I give way to the hon. Member for Sevenoaks responsibilities. We must ensure that member states (Mr. Fallon). stick to that agreement. I am sure that hon. Members will have noticed that, Mr. Fallon: I am most grateful to the Minister. She is in some areas, the Commission’s legislative proposals handling a range of questions, but what is her red line in go further than what was agreed in June. For example, it this matter? Articles 9, 10 and 11 of the European is proposed that the new EU supervisory authorities banking authority proposal would give it direct power could later directly supervise Community-wide entities. over individual financial institutions, with the result That clearly does not respect the June agreement, and that it could issue an instruction to Barclays or HSBC. the Government are absolutely clear that we cannot Is that a red line for the British Government, or not? accept it, as it could fundamentally undermine national supervision. Furthermore, the Commission’s proposals Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The red line for the British include direct European powers over firms, in particular Government is that these authorities should not have in crisis management. Such a role could confuse and direct powers over the day-to-day supervision of national undermine national crisis management, and it is clearly firms, and that is the approach on which we are going critical to ensure that Governments can respond quickly forward. and effectively in times of crisis, so that needs to change. The Commission has also published an amending directive, which amends 10 existing financial services Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: I asked the hon. Lady last directives to enable the new authorities to carry out month who would appoint the members of these their tasks effectively.Most significantly, these amendments supervisory authorities and to whom they would be will clarify the areas in which the new authorities can accountable—is it the Council of Ministers, the European develop technical standards and many of the areas in Parliament, the Commission, or all three? Given that which they can mediate in cases of disagreement between clarity and certainty are absolutely essential—if there is national supervisors. We believe that those moves will a credit crunch, we will otherwise get into a huge improve the quality and consistency of regulation and muddle all over again—will she tell us the exact position supervision in the EU, and they were agreed to by regarding reporting and appointment to these bodies? Heads of State and Government at the European Council meeting in June. The ambitions are also supported by Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The ESAs will be accountable the City and, in particular, by cross-border institutions to national Governments through the European Council. operating from London. It is likely that they will also be accountable to the European Parliament. In the United Kingdom, the Mr. Cash: The Minister speaks about red lines. Will Financial Services Authority—our nominee—will be she exercise a veto when the whole matter is going to be accountable in the normal way through its annual report decided by a majority vote? and the Treasury Committee.

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: This is a package of five legislative Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: And appointments? proposals. The hon. Gentleman is quite right that four of them are down to qualified majority voting, but one Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I will have to get back to the of the items in the package is subject to unanimity. We right hon. Gentleman about appointments. I imagine are going into the negotiations with our red lines and I that that would be a matter for member states, but I am sure that the Chancellor will stick to them. Within hope to be able to get back to him on that before the the negotiations, I am sure that we will get not only end of the debate. what is good for the UK, but what is good for the EU. There has already been a lot of discussion and debate about the proposals. Lord Myners has given evidence to Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): Against which the Treasury Committee and to the House of Lords countries does the Minister expect that Britain will have European Union Committee. He also took part in to defend its red lines? I am interested to know who is a debate in the Chamber of the House of Lords on likely to line up with us and who she feels might imperil 10 November. In addition, the Treasury Committee Britain’s interests. published a report on the proposals on 16 November, for which I thank it. That insightful report raises a Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman number of issues that are also of great importance to would not expect me to answer that question on the the Government. In particular, the report highlights Floor of the House when the Chancellor is going into the Committee’s concerns about the legality of the negotiations tomorrow. I will not second-guess or pre-empt Commission’s proposals; the fiscal impact on member those negotiations. states; the Commission’s role in crisis situations; and the As I said, it was agreed at the June meeting that composition of the European systemic risk board. day-to-day supervision and crisis management There is widespread interest in the legal issues arrangements had to remain national, as only national surrounding these proposals, and the Government are Governments can provide any fiscal support to firms. In well aware of the complex legal matters involved. Regardless the case of credit rating agencies, which cannot have a of the technicalities, the Government’s overriding objective 995 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 996 Proposals Proposals [Sarah McCarthy-Fry] Concerns have been expressed about the speed of reforms, and about the better regulation principles. We is to ensure that the new framework can withstand legal must ensure that there is better and more effective challenge. We cannot have legal uncertainty and challenges regulation, which is based on strong evidence, as well as before the courts, as that could undermine financial thorough consultation and impact assessments. It is stability. We are therefore working closely with other important to respond swiftly to the crisis and make sure member states and the Council legal service to ensure that we can secure harmonised standards and put better that the bodies are on a sound legal footing. I know regulation in place quickly, but that should certainly there are questions about the legal basis of the proposals, not be at the expense of high-quality regulation. It is but let me assure the House that we believe that article more important than ever to ensure that our response is 95 is an appropriate legal basis for the regulations. evidence-based and achieves the desired end. We continue However, we have concerns about matters in which the to encourage the Commission to adhere to best practice supervisory authorities can exercise discretion, and in and to conduct consultations and impact assessments which the Commission is seemingly playing the role of on regulatory proposals for the regulation of markets the courts. Both those issues are problematic, but we and firms. That high-quality evidence base will also believe they can be resolved so that the authorities can maximise the influence of the EU on the international exercise the useful roles assigned to them. stage with our international partners and better enable it to attain international regulatory convergence. It is Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) crucial that better regulation principles are instilled in (Con): The Minister has referred to the legal and practical the bodies themselves. The Government have been arguing difficulties, but can she tell us how much experience she strongly for this in Council, and it continues to be a top has had of speaking to practitioners in the field about priority. the precise nature of those problems? Has she spoken to Concerns have been raised about the Commission’s them, or has she just read briefings from the trade role in determining a crisis situation. Alongside other body? member states, the UK is questioning the Commission’s role in some areas of the proposals, including its ability Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I think that the hon. Gentleman to decide unilaterally where there is an emergency situation. probably knows the answer. I have not had discussions We have already made progress on this issue and there is with legal practitioners, but my noble Friend Lord now broad consensus among member states that the Myners, who leads on this policy matter in the other Council should have a strong role in activating any place, certainly has done so, and I have read all the emergency powers. briefings. Many members of the European Scrutiny Committee Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): Will have raised concerns about the fiscal safeguard clause in the Minister draw to the attention of the House precisely the proposals. I would like to stress that this is a what is meant by emergency circumstances? That is not mechanism that in practice should never be used. The clear from what she said or what we have before us legislation clearly states that ESAs are required to ensure today. that their decisions do not impinge on member states’ fiscal responsibilities. However, alongside that, a process Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I would suggest that emergency has been set out in the legislation for member states to circumstances were the sort of situation that we faced opt out of a decision made by an ESA, if they believe last year, with the possibility of the entire global financial that it would have a fiscal consequence. We need to system going into meltdown. I will get clarification, ensure that that process is not open to abuse, and that it however. provides the right protections. The Commission’s proposal requires a member state to secure a qualified majority I turn to some specific clarifications that the European vote in support in Council, in cases in which the ESA Scrutiny Committee requested, following the Committee’s decides to uphold its decision, despite the member state correspondence with Lord Myners on these issues. With raising a fiscal case against it. We are not convinced that reference to the Government’s progress in ensuring a the balance is right, or that it provides sufficient assurance balanced representation of non-eurozone member states to member states. We are therefore working with EU on the European systemic risk board steering committee, member states, many of which share our concerns, to there is broad consensus in Council that there should be improve the safeguard clause. an appropriate representation of non-eurozone member states on the ESRB, and in particular, that there should Mr. Fallon: Again, I want to be clear that that is a red be five, rather than three, additional members of the line for the United Kingdom, and that the fiscal safeguard steering committee, and that two of those should be will not be subject to majority voting. from non-eurozone central banks. The need to ensure an appropriate balance of eurozone Sarah McCarthy-Fry: For us, the red line applies to and non-eurozone members was one of the key issues the fact that none of those authorities should have the stressed by the Chancellor during the discussion of power to make any impact on national Governments’ these proposals at the ECOFIN meeting of 2 October. fiscal responsibility. We do not believe that the fiscal The Government are therefore confident that this position safeguard should be used, because there is an overriding will be reflected in the Council’s discussions with the legal principle that the decision should not impinge on European Parliament as we go forward. member states’ fiscal responsibilities. Again, that will be part of the negotiations, and as I have said, many other Mr. Hoban: Will the Minister make it clear that member states share our concern, so we hope to be able balanced representation will be in the legislation, rather to make progress. than in some side agreement reached in Council? 997 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 998 Proposals Proposals Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The aim would be for that to The issue is clearly important, and it is right that we be in the legislation, but it will form part of the negotiations. have this debate in advance of the ECOFIN meeting The important thing is that we get the result—the tomorrow. representation of the non-eurozone member states on We recognise the importance of cross-border supervision. the steering committee. We have had arguably the first global regulatory crisis, and we need to learn lessons about the need for greater Mr. Hoban: But is a decision in Council, but not on co-ordination and standards of supervision. However, the face of the legislative proposal, binding? despite the global nature of the crisis, the bill for failure Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I cannot answer that question. was picked up by national taxpayers, and we need to I do not want to mislead the hon. Gentleman. It is my bear that in mind as we debate the subject. The UK understanding that if we can get that as a Council boasts a leading global financial centre. The importance decision, that will be what happens, but I will get back of global co-ordination should not be understated, but, to him with the precise legal basis for that. when considering the issue, we must engage much more vigorously in the debate. That is not about stymieing The improved voting thresholds in the ESRB general attempts at reform, but about working towards a more board reflect a building consensus in Council that the effective and stable system. That will benefit the UK voting mechanism for decisions taken by the ESRB’s and the wider European Union, and we recognise that general board, as set out in the Commission’s draft some changes are necessary to resolve some issues that regulation, is not appropriate in all cases. Instead, there the financial crisis threw up. has been considerable support for voting by a two-thirds majority, rather than a simple majority, for adopting a However, we find the Government’s approach passive recommendation and for agreeing to make a warning or and complacent. They need to be proactive and strategic, recommendation public. rather than complacent and tactical. Such an approach As I said, there are outstanding issues and questions, represents a misunderstanding of the importance of but this is a positive agenda for reform, which the what is at stake, and the consequences of the Government’s Government— rather casual approach could be significant. We have seen the consequences of that approach Mr. Cash: Does the Minister note that one of the already.This year, we had the publication of the alternative questions that we put was whether, in the context of the investment fund managers directive, and there has been architecture to which I referred earlier, the Government widespread criticism of it and its impact not just on are satisfied not only with regard to the voting issue, but hedge funds and private equity, but on other forms of with regard to the relationship of the European Court funds affecting other European countries. of Justice to these bodies? That is crucial, because it is at that point that the question of the exercise of real Mr. Mark Field: I entirely agree with my hon. Friend power is determined. Can the Minister answer that on the alternative investment directive. Is not the bigger question, please? criticism of it, however, that it simply betrayed, among those in the European Union who are attempting to Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I can only refer the hon. introduce it, a lack of understanding about the role of Gentleman back to my previous answer, which was that asset management and, indeed, its non-role in the credit we have concerns about the legislative proposals, where crunch and financial crisis that we have faced over the the Commission appears to be taking over the role of past two years? Whatever other problems there may the courts, because the judgment as to whether member have been, hedge funds and private equity have not been states are following European law must be a matter for responsible for any systemic problems that that directive the European courts. and others have tried to address. We are putting in place a new framework to improve the quality and consistency of supervision and regulation. Mr. Hoban: That is certainly a factor, and as the Such a framework will better protect consumers, help directive has proceeded through the European Parliament prevent financial crisis and improve efficiency for firms. more and more people have recognised the widespread I look forward to hearing the contributions of hon. impact that it could have on a range of funds, whether Members in the debate. they are used to fund the building of wind farms in Germany or mortgages in the Baltic states. The directive 4.49 pm is wide-ranging, and people have not understood its Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): We welcome the impact. My particular criticism is that the Government chance to debate these important proposals. They will caught on to that rather late in the process. Other have a significant impact on the regulation of the financial Governments were lobbying prior to the publication of services sector, and they have the potential, notwithstanding the directive earlier this year, whereas our Government the Minister’s comments, to impact on our fiscal policy. seemed to be slow on the uptake. It was only once the Let us be clear, however, that we are here only because industry got its teeth into the directive and considered the European Scrutiny Committee called for a debate its impact on London that the Government rode in on the Floor of the House. The Government have not behind. conceded these proceedings voluntarily. They did not We saw the same pattern arise with the appointment set aside this time because they felt it important to of Monsieur Barnier as a European Commissioner. The debate these issues; they were required to do so by the deal was done some time ago. The French appeared to Committee. It asked for a three-hour debate on the give way and allowed Baroness Ashton to become Floor of the House, and that signal should not be the High Representative, but there seems to have been underestimated. The Committee has done so on only a a quid pro quo: a Frenchman would take over as handful of occasions during the lifetime of this Parliament. Commissioner for the internal market. The Government 999 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1000 Proposals Proposals [Mr. Hoban] of opposition to individual aspects. Later, I will discuss some of the areas where there may be greater protection woke up to that quite late in the debate, and there was a in London than that specified in directives, and that is flurry of spin and media activity in the days leading up in our interests. Would that protection be removed as a to his appointment, but by that stage it was too late. consequence of harmonisation? Again, tactics took priority over the strategic approach In the whole legislative process that has emerged as a that is needed to protect London’s financial interests, response to the financial crisis, it seems that a great deal and the same point applies to the documents that are is happening in haste and not much has been well before us today. The Government must be much more thought through. There is a danger that we are being zealous in protecting Britain’s interests and those of the pushed to sign up to directives and proposals very financial services sector, which is an asset not just to quickly without people fully thinking through their London but to the wider European economy. impact. The particular concern about this set of proposals Mr. Cash: My hon. Friend knows that I have the is that there seems to be pressure from the Swedish gravest concerns about all this. Does he appreciate that presidency to agree the package at tomorrow’s ECOFIN although the trade associations—I mentioned the meeting and at the Council meeting later this month. Association of British Insurers, the British Bankers Even trade bodies are concerned about the haste with Association and the Investment Management Association which this process has been dealt with and they fear —have effectively endorsed the idea of this supranational that not enough time is being spent on working through authority, there is also a political dimension, because the detail. whereas they may have a multinational view about these We should recognise that if we want to get this matters in the global context, in terms of the City of legislation right, we need to spend more time working London a political judgment has to be struck? That is through the details instead of being forced to comply why I personally take the view that we ought to resist with artificially imposed deadlines that relate to whoever this all the way down the line. As my hon. Friend the is in or out of the presidency at any point in time. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) Indeed, the Treasury Committee said in its report that said, people in the trade associations take a globalised “it is better to be right than quick”, view based on multinationalism, whereas when one deals with people in individual firms on the ground, one and went on to state that finds that they frequently take a very different view. “even on a cursory examination there are serious problems with Does my hon. Friend have any comment to make the Commission’s proposals which need to be dealt with before on that? the Council agrees to the draft legislation and it moves on to the next stage.” Mr. Hoban: My experience in this role over the past The European Scrutiny Committee stated that four years is that there is a wide divergence of views in “we are disappointed that Member States, in the ECOFIN Council the City about the role that Europe should play in the and in the European Council, intend to continue to press on regulation of financial services. Several trade associations precipitately with this legislation and that the Government seems take the view that there should be a harmonised rule content to acquiesce in this haste.” book, for example, but they are also concerned about Will the Exchequer Secretary indicate whether the the pace at which the reforms are progressing and Government are content, if no agreement is reached whether a proper process is in place. We have seen that tomorrow, to push the conclusion of this debate into in the way in which the alternative investment fund next year in the interests of better scrutiny? The ESC managers directive has been dealt with. The devil is continued: always in the detail. We need proper scrutiny of these proposals, and people need carefully to think through “As we have already said, rushed legislation proves all too their impact. The problem is that when others seek to often to be poor legislation and we would expect the Government to insist that these proposals are properly negotiated to a sensible use their political agenda to shape regulation in Europe, timetable.” it is sometimes to the detriment of our own sector based here in London. We must ask why we have been pushed to respond so quickly to the reforms. If the proposals were straightforward Mr. Mark Field: I entirely accept what my hon. and uncontroversial that would be one thing, but as the Friend says, but does he not agree with the thrust of the comments that have been made both by the Minister point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stone and in interventions have demonstrated, they are neither. (Mr. Cash)? If, rather than consulting often self-appointed It is not just people in the House who believe that. The market bodies notionally representing dozens or hundreds Association for Financial Markets in Europe has stated: of members, one asks the market practitioners who “The rapid timetable is driven by the political commitment to have to deal day to day with the impact of much of this have the ESRB and ESAs in operation by the end of 2010. It does legislation, which may derive from our own Parliament however, particularly at a time when an unusually large number of as well as from Europe, one finds that they are much policy proposals are under development in a range of areas in the more concerned and can see the disadvantages. It could wake of the financial turmoil, place great strain on the ability of almost be said that one of the benefits of being in policy-makers and interested parties to give the Proposals proper opposition is being able to talk to market practitioners technical scrutiny. The time pressure is intensified by the fact that instead of hearing from on high about the various a series of Proposals whose content interlocks have been made, and are being scrutinised by the Council and the European benefits that such new legislation, directives and regulations Parliament, on a staggered timetable.” may have. There is a strong message from inside and outside the Mr. Hoban: That reflects the argument that I was House that proper time should be spent scrutinising the making. People support these moves in the abstract, but measures, rather than their being rushed through to when it comes to concrete proposals there is a great deal meet an artificial deadline. 1001 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1002 Proposals Proposals Mr. Jeremy Browne: I understand and agree with the constitution. I am glad to say that the leader of our hon. Gentleman’s point that it is better to get the right party has affirmed that there will be a sovereignty Bill solution and take time over arriving at that conclusion to deal with some of those questions. Does my hon. than to react in haste and potentially reach the wrong Friend agree that where there are such competing conclusion. However, he seems to be slightly at odds sovereignties, and it is in our national interests to do so, with some of his Back Benchers who, I get the sense, do as it is in the case before us, it is essential that, if we not wish us to arrive at any conclusion at all. In other come to power, we justify and carry through the leader words, they reject the entire process, whether it is arrived of our party’s commitment to the repatriation of legislation at in haste or at great leisure. Is that his interpretation? to ensure our economic competitiveness, using our It is worth exploring the real difference between those sovereignty Bill? who wish to reach the end point after sufficient consideration and those who do not wish to reach the Mr. Hoban: I suspect that my hon. Friend is pushing end point at all. me to go further than I am inclined to go at this point, but I want to explore the legal argument, because there Mr. Hoban: The hon. Gentleman is being a little is an issue to do with the basis of the powers. I know hasty in reaching any conclusions about a discrepancy that he is an expert on the subject, so he may want to in views between myself and my hon. Friends. I have contribute to the debate on that point later. just talked about the timetable, but there are other matters that I want to discuss that are related to the Article 95 of the treaty, as currently drafted, will be substance of the proposals, on which we have a great used to create the ESRB. That article usually deals with deal in common. It is not just about the time scale and matters relating to internal markets, and it operates process, it is about substance as well. under qualified majority voting, but if any action arising from the provisions requires treaty amendments, there I wish to touch on a point that the Exchequer Secretary will not be that capacity, and confusion and paralysis glossed over, but which has caused a great deal of will reign. Article 105 will concern for both the ESC and the Treasury Committee—the constitutional nature of the powers in question. There “confer upon the ECB”— was a debate in the Treasury Committee about whether European Central Bank— the powers to be granted in the proposals before us have “specific tasks concerning policies relating to the prudential supervision a legal basis. In written evidence to the Committee, of credit institutions and other financial institutions with the Stuart Popham and Simon Gleeson of Clifford Chance exception of insurance undertakings”, wrote: but of course it has an exception relating to insurance. “The ESAs will not have power to take decisions or to make Article 105 does not use QMV,and so allows for national rules—European law requires that these powers are reserved to vetoes. It is not clear where primacy sits, and what the Commission, and we believe that this could not be changed voting mechanism is appropriate. without an amendment to the EU treaty. The attempt to give the committees the power to review the issue of whether individual There is an alternative basis for the powers in article national regulators have correctly implemented EU legislation 308—a residual power that could be used to set up the appears to be an attempt to stretch this point.” bodies. However, that requires unanimous decision making. As we have seen, though, the ESAs will issue binding Using that power would make more sense, if it turned directions on compliance with EU law and on mediation out that decisions made by the ESAs were likely to be between two regulators. If the power is to ensure compliance ultra vires to the European Community treaty if made with the law that already exists, it is hard to see of what under article 95. However, I gather that use of the use it is. Is it a discretionary power or not? As it is power under article 308 would require amendments to a presented, it is not clear, and the Commission itself treaty, which is something that Governments and the seemed to allude to the same issue in the context of European Commission might be reluctant to undertake potential interference with the fiscal responsibility of at the moment. That gives the impression that article 95 member states when it stated: is being used to set up the powers more for convenience “Incorrect application of Community law cannot be justified than because it would give the documents a proper by financial grounds. The remainder of the Authorities decisions basis. are either not directed to individual supervisors, or non-binding, Let me turn to the detail. It is important that we therefore by definition cannot have fiscal implications.” tackle the timing and the legality of the arguments. The In other words, member states must surely already be Minister rather glossed over those points, and in her compliant with EU law, even on fiscal grounds, so no winding-up speech she should give the House more decision made by the ESAs could have fiscal consequences. clarity about the robustness of the arguments on the Once again, therefore, we must ask what the power is for legal basis on which the new authorities are to be exactly. established. The confusion does not end there. Mr. Gleeson pointed We want measures to be taken to improve the quality out in his evidence to the Treasury Committee that if of supervision and co-ordination across Europe, but we the power was found to be discretionary and was do not want that to impinge on the regulatory and fiscal subsequently deployed, the European Court of Justice sovereignty of individual member states. As the Chancellor would be likely to consider any such directives wrote of the new regime, in his letter of response to the “ultra vires to the treaty”, de Larosière proposals, and they would, as Stuart Popham put it, “cease to “it would not supervise individual banks…leaving that to national exist.” authorities...given that arrangements for resolving difficulties in these firms remain a national responsibility.” Mr. Cash: My hon. Friend raises an extremely important That is the dilemma that we need to resolve, and that is point relating to competing sovereignties. The European the principle on which the proposals will be judged in Court asserts its primacy over not only our laws but our all parts of the House. 1003 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1004 Proposals Proposals Mr. Heathcoat-Amory: My hon. Friend is quite right We can see already that we are in danger of breaching that we must guard our fiscal sovereignty, but is he not the red lines that the Chancellor initially laid out. This underestimating the confusion that will be caused if is another example of the rather laidback approach that there is ambiguity about exactly where these bodies the Government have adopted to their policies. Back in reside in Europe? We got into a terrible muddle in our June, before ECOFIN, Lord Myners said that own country when supervision fell into a black hole “the Government does not agree with the Commission’s proposals between the Treasury, the FSA and the Bank of England. to give a European body powers to change national supervisory There will be more confusion when it falls into another decisions, or powers over individual firms”. black hole between the European Parliament, the That is exactly where we are in danger of heading. The Commission and the Council of Ministers. We will have ESAs will be able to act on both areas through binding a six-sided black hole, if that is not a contradiction, mediation, in the case of disputes between national whereas we need certainty and clarity for all market authorities under article 12, and the binding power to operators. Even if the self-imposed test on fiscal sovereignty ensure that firms and national authorities comply with is passed, does he not think that we are creating immense EU law when the Commission declares an emergency confusion and ambiguity about the whole process of situation under article 10. supervision of a vital national interest? Mr. Cash: I agree with my hon. Friend’s analysis, but Mr. Hoban: Indeed, and that is the point that I was the danger is that, because of mission creep, there will trying to make about the legal basis for the powers that be increasing control—the practitioners instinctively will be used to set up these authorities. It appears to be feel that that is coming. Those who are promoting this a matter of some debate whether the appropriate legal whole superstructure, including the Government and basis is being used. If that is not clarified properly, I can Lord Myners himself, would hand over the City of foresee a situation in which the moment these authorities London, lock, stock and barrel to a supervisory authority seek to make the first difficult decision that an institution that will insist that it has its way. That is the problem or member state does not like, challenges in the European and it is completely contrary to proper market conditions. Court will be resorted to. At a moment of crisis, when That is where the problem lies for the City, and it will we want prompt action to be taken, the fact that there is end up in competition with New York instead of working no legal certainty—or no appearance of legal certainty—will across the Atlantic as we should do. lead to chaos. That is why I think that it is vital that legal certainty on these powers is sought before the Mr. Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an important proposals are approved. We can debate whether the point about mission creep when it comes to these authorities, powers are right or wrong, but there must be legal and he has been very critical of trade associations so certainty to avoid that chaos. The Government have a far. However, the Association for Financial Markets in responsibility to the financial services sector in London Europe has identified that as a potential issue. It is and more widely across Europe to ensure that there is concerned that ESAs will go beyond technical issues that legal certainty. and stray into policy. It said: Let me go back to fiscal sovereignty. As I said, the “It will be important to ensure, in the context of the ‘Omnibus’ proposals create a new European systemic risk board Proposal, that technical standards do indeed respect the ‘technical’/ and the June ECOFIN conclusions said that its function ‘policy’ distinction, and in particular that they do not inappropriately would be to constrain supervisory judgements by national authorities that are provided for in the sectoral Directives.” “Define, have access to and/or collect as appropriate, and analyse all the information relevant for identifying, monitoring It also argued that checks and balances would be necessary and assessing potential threats and risks to financial stability in to prevent such mission creep. There is therefore widespread the EU that arise from macro-economic developments and recognition of the risk of mission creep, and delay is developments within the financial system as a whole”. important so that we can work through the issues and It has limited powers that follow on from that analysis. say exactly what these new bodies can do, what constraints It has the power to issue risk warnings to regulators and there will be on their activities in practice, and what policy makers, and it can recommend legislative action their modus operandi and their approach to their mission where appropriate. It cannot insist on those actions will be. We also need to know what resources they will being followed up—it purely has the ability to recommend. have to enable them to meddle in the activities of I do not think that that should cause us any concern at individual national supervisors. We are in danger of the moment. We are in favour of bodies on a regional or reaching a political agreement at ECOFIN and the global level analysing and understanding risks and Council without really thinking through the practical presenting their thoughts on the consequences of those implications for London as a financial services centre. risks. That is the challenge for the Government. Will they sign The three new authorities replace the existing level 3 up to this tomorrow, or will they argue that the consequences committees and will cover the same areas of banking, have not been properly thought through? I hope that insurance and securities regulation. Whereas the ESRB the Minister will respond to that challenge in this debate, will lack a legal personality, the ESAs are explicitly The Minister adopted a contradictory approach. She given one. Just like the ESRB, the new supervisory said that the final proposal must respect the red lines authorities will research, collate and comment on relevant agreed at ECOFIN in June, but at the same time she micro-prudential issues. They will also be responsible seemed to accept that the supervisory authorities could for developing binding, harmonised technical standards. make a decision that had an impact on our fiscal If an individual member state is in breach of those responsibilities. She was content that a safeguard mechanism standards, and an issue cannot be resolved, one of the would be in place to allow us to appeal if we thought supervisory authorities might make a final decision via that that was happening. However, we cannot on the binding mediation. one hand say that there must be no fiscal impact and on 1005 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1006 Proposals Proposals the other argue for improving the safeguard clause in the Commission has departed so far from the ECOFIN conclusions article 23 by tightening up the wording. We either have of June this year and we insist that UK Ministers do not agree to red lines or we do not. The Minister needs to be much any of these provisions until the fiscal sovereignty of the UK is clearer about that. Lord Myners, when considering the protected by a veto.” disparity between the legislative proposals and the Council’s That is a very robust statement and recommendation by recommendations, said: the Select Committee. Two distinguished Committee “the legislative proposals appear to go further than what was members are here this afternoon, and I am sure that agreed by heads of state at June European Council”. they will stand by it. It is difficult to see, however, how We are now being promised improvements to the fiscal the Government can say that their red line has been safeguards, but can the Minister tell us what forms these recognised in the architecture if they do not achieve might take? that veto. There is also a challenge to the Government red line in dealing with emergencies. At the moment, the document Stewart Hosie: The hon. Gentleman said earlier that is drafted so that it is the Commission that decides what it is necessary to move quickly during a crisis, and that constitutes an emergency and the ESA can override the is absolutely right—this is not just a fiscal protection. Is national supervisor subject to the appeal mechanism set it part of his argument that changes to the prospectus out in article 23. We know from our recent experience in directive, for example, could hinder the issuing of shares the financial crisis that it is at moments of crisis and and raising of cash in an emergency? The capital emergency that the interests of national Governments requirements directive, for example, is split between the and taxpayers are paramount, but we seem to be allowing European banking authority, in relation to the a situation in which the ESA, in a crisis determined by implementation of Basel II, and the European securities the Commission, could overrule the judgments of national and markets authority, in relation to non-prudential supervisors and have an impact on fiscal responsibility. issues. Is that the kind of confusion that he thinks might delay quick action in an emergency? We want the Government to maintain the red line and stick to their principle that there should be no impact on the UK’s fiscal position. However, yesterday Mr. Hoban: Actually, my point goes back to the in the Financial Services Bill debate, when the Chancellor exchange between me and some of my hon. Friends made his opening remarks, it sounded as though he was about the legal basis of the powers, which is not clear watering down the red line. He seemed to be going for a and about which there is some doubt. That could create situation in which not the Commission but the Council confusion as people seek to test whether the declares a crisis. However, that still allows the European pronouncements of the ESAs are valid in the context of supervisory agencies potentially to override national European law. That is where some of the confusion will supervisors, which I do not think respects the red lines potentially emerge. agreed in June. Let me move on to another aspect on which I am not entirely sure that the safeguards in article 3 are sufficiently Mr. Mark Field: I agree entirely with the last passage robust. As I mentioned earlier, the ESRB has the power of my hon. Friend’s speech. I also agree, with foreboding, to propose changes in response to risks that it identifies that the red lines to which the Exchequer Secretary in the European economy. It can propose actions, but referred are likely to be largely illusory. Does my hon. it does not have a mechanism for enforcing those Friend agree that a more sensible approach to constructing recommendations. The problem that I see in how the red lines—if we are to go down that path—would be to various bodies interlock is that although the ESAs have say that regulation should be dealt with at the European the power to ensure that supervisory authorities follow level and the supervisory element entirely at a national the recommendations of the ESRB, that is not covered level? The overlap is obvious between a European and by the safeguards in article 23. I wonder whether the national supervisor. The supervision element should be Minister could assure the House that the safeguards set entirely in national hands. That would be a sensible red out in article 23 will be extended to cover situations in line, if one is to be fought over tomorrow and in the which the ESAs seek to implement the recommendations negotiations in the months and, potentially, years ahead. of the ESRB. I intervened on the Minister about the composition Mr. Hoban: My hon. Friend makes an interesting of the steering committee of the ESRB. I made it clear point. If regulation is dealt with at a European level, then that we want to ensure that the final document there is the risk that in the process of the binding contains some recognition of the fact that there should mediation outlined in the documents, in a conflict between be two bank governors on the steering committee who how supervisory authorities interpret the regulations, come from non-eurozone countries. The Minister said the ESAs could intervene, through that mediation, and that she would find out how any conclusions reached in create another fiscal impact. This is a complex area. I the Council could be made binding. do not think that the Government have got their red There are a number of other issues that we could lines in the right place, and they are certainly not touch on in this afternoon’s debate. I have already defending them as vigorously as we would have hoped, raised a couple in interventions on the Minister, such as given the conclusions reached in the June Council. who will be responsible for supervising the central clearing The Labour-dominated—as Opposition politicians houses. There is also concern about the scope of the like to refer to it—Treasury Select Committee report European securities and markets authority. There have made itself very clear. Paragraph 84 stated: been a number of representations from institutions in “We recommend that the Regulations provide proper protection the City of London that are concerned that the authority’s for the fiscal position of Member States. It needs to be far remit could impact on the takeover directive, on which stronger than the current provisions. We do not understand why there has been a hard-fought campaign to reach consensus 1007 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1008 Proposals Proposals [Mr. Hoban] that we are part of that set-up and arguing for the interests of London as a global financial services centre. across Europe. It appears that the takeover directive I think the stakes are high. The Government appear falls within the scope of the European securities and to be disengaged from the European process until the markets authority. There is concern that the authority very end. Rather than engaging throughout that process, might seek to move away from the consensus that has they come to life only then, trying to change already been achieved on the directive in respect of takeovers in drafted documents rather than influencing the drafting. the UK and undermine the work that the Panel on The Government’s approach always appears to be about Takeovers and Mergers does. I wonder whether the tactics, not about strategy. The financial services sector Minister could clarify whether she expects the Government in London is a global success story, but I think the to call for the European securities and markets authority’s Government, through their cavalier and insouciant remit to be restricted to exclude the work on the takeover approach, are in danger of putting that success at risk. directive. By opposing the motion today, we are sending out a I have talked about the concern in the City about very clear signal that that approach needs to change whether the European securities and markets authority’s and will do so only with a change of Government. role in fleshing out some of the technical detail on directives might be extended to cover policy issues, but 5.32 pm there are other areas of concern. For example, shareholders in the UK receive greater protection when making Mr. Mark Todd (South Derbyshire) (Lab): I burdened substantial transactions here than they do elsewhere in the House with quite a lengthy speech yesterday and I Europe under existing directives. Will there be sufficient hope not to detain it quite so long today. There are flexibility in the new regime for shareholders to continue some linkages, as I indicated in my earlier intervention to benefit from that additional protection? on the Minister. First, we need to be grateful that Her Majesty’s Opposition now regard a French banker as a Let us look at what happened in Spain in this financial useful resource for advice for their proposals on regulation, crisis. Spain consciously diverged from the capital instead of an opportunity for rather stereotypical cursing. requirements directive by allowing dynamic provisioning We can see some evidence of progress in policy formation in its banking sector, which many would argue safeguarded there. it against some of the problems seen elsewhere in the The hon. Member for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) challenged European financial sector. Would the European banking me on the possible payback that Mr. de Larosière might authority’s powers prevent a central bank from imposing secure from his endorsement of Conservative policy, those additional requirements on banks in its country? but we may have seen it in the hon. Gentleman’s speech. If it did, the Spanish banks would have been in a Instead of questioning the architecture and philosophy detrimental position compared with the current status of the regulation that came from the relevant group, the that they enjoy, and central banks would have less focus of his speech was on process and timing. I am discretion to protect depositors and taxpayers. certainly going to touch on those things, but I will also In conclusion, there are a range of issues in the address some philosophical concerns about this approach proposals before us that require further scrutiny. They and the direction in which we are heading. also require the Government to adopt a tougher negotiating position at ECOFIN tomorrow and at the Council Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh, North and Leith) (Lab/ meeting later this month. I have to say that I am not Co-op): I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way optimistic about the Government’s chances of insisting before he proceeds to the main points in his speech. It on their red lines, because they have repeatedly left appears from the final comments of the hon. Member debating these matters until too late in the process. for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) that the Conservative party They have too often been slow in getting involved in not only speaks highly of proposals from a French discussions about how these directives should be shaped Minister, but that it wishes a Treasury Minister to take when they are going through the processes in the up a more or less permanent residence in Brussels in Commission, leaving it until the directives have been order to pursue UK interests. It seems like a welcome published before engaging in the debate. change that we have seen from the Conservative party today. These legislative proposals have gone beyond the position agreed in the ECOFIN meeting in June and the later Council meeting, which I believe has happened Mr. Todd: Let us leave it for the electorate to decide because the Government have not been sufficiently what they make of Conservative policy, its origins and proactive in engaging in the European debate. That is its allies. I certainly listened with attention to the speech why Conservative Members say it is important for a of the hon. Member for Fareham. I have to say that senior Treasury Minister to spend as much time as Conservative politicians speaking from the Front Bench necessary in Brussels and other European capitals to about Europe always have a somewhat tightrope-like strengthen our opportunities to engage on these matters approach, particularly when the hon. Member for Stone earlier and more effectively. We would have Ministers (Mr. Cash) is in his place behind them, trying to prod engage in the debate in ECOFIN, making sure that them in other directions. The speech was an interesting Britain’s case is strongly and clearly made. We need to attempt to adhere to a tightrope in spite of provocations bolster our operations in Brussels and ensure that more from time to time. Treasury civil servants are working on European matters. Let me go to the fundamentals of this issue. The We also need to ensure that the regulator continues to previous model of what constituted not European engage vigorously in the debate. As these new European regulation but advisory frameworks in this policy authorities are set up, it will become even more important area was focused on what I would regard as the useful 1009 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1010 Proposals Proposals purpose of enabling information and practical experience to ensure that we have a single market that works to be exchanged between regulators in the various more effectively, and to increase the resilience of that marketplaces. marketplace—in other words, if the aim is the protection Not everyone feels that talking shops have value. For of the various entities to which I referred earlier—I am instance, the Governor of the Bank of England has not sure that that will result from the actions we are made a number of entertaining and, one might say, taking in agreeing to the establishment of these agencies. dismissive remarks about de Larosière’s thoughts on I would like that case to be set out in practical terms—what this area of European intervention. When questioned does this mean, and how will it deliver added protection about the future function of the European systemic risk and added value in this critically important sector of board, he said: our economy? “Whether this body turns out to be a mere talking shop or a There is also the issue of deciding both how we are to useful talking shop, in terms of an exchange of views and ideas proceed and how these bodies will operate once they being generated, remains to be seen—that is up to the people who have been decided on and set up. The decision-making sit on it. We will see. I go to vast numbers of international process is somewhat strange. I devoted some time to this meetings and I cannot claim that most of them live up to the issue in Treasury Committee discussions. We have by billing that one would hope. Nevertheless, as I said, hope springs far the largest financial services sector in Europe, yet in eternal—cautious, moderate hope for this committee—and we will do our best to try and raise the level of debate.” the decision-making framework and processes of these bodies—and they will be making decisions—our voice There is certainly evidence that some of the international appears to have no greater weight than any other member gatherings that are organised to discuss even the more state. We therefore face some risk of having to spend a practical issue of regulation may have relatively little significant amount of our time seeking to persuade value. However, let us take a slightly more optimistic regulators and their representatives from member states position than that taken by the Governor of the Bank with tiny financial services sectors of the merits of our of England, and suggest that these forums for the arguments in horse-trading discussions on technical exchange of information and experience may have some matters that are largely irrelevant to them, but which value. What I have puzzled over is the question of what they nevertheless have a say in and a vote on. One has to added value results from an extension of that role of wonder about the merits of that. information exchange and experience exchange into an activist regulatory framework. That is what the proposals Let me relate an exchange I had on this subject with before us represent, not in their fully evolved form—as I Lord Myners in the Treasury Committee. I pointed out shall explain later, I believe that we are moving along a the rather different degrees of importance of the financial ramp towards a rather higher level of intervention than sector for various member states, and he said: we see before us now—but certainly in the early stages “I think we would expect our voice and credibility to be of establishing a European regulatory framework in the reflective of the significance of the financial services industry. Of relevant marketplaces. course it is also worth remembering that we have consistently made the case that European legislation and proposals must be I have no principled objection to such an extension as evidence-based and must be the consequence of proper consultation an idea—unlike the hon. Member for Stone, who certainly with an impact assessment. We have seen things come out of the would—but I should like to see a demonstration of the Commission which do not meet those criteria”. practical added value that would result from the additional I hinted to him that I had heard a suggestion that one of layer of regulatory intervention. I have not seen a case those things was the venture into hedge fund regulation, proven which shows that the establishment of some and he said, “Absolutely.”I asked whether that exemplified European regulatory framework will cause our consumers the problem of constructing European responses in to be better protected, our taxpayers to be better sectors where one nation state has virtually no industry protected—from chaos—or the individual trading entities at all and another has a very large industry. He replied: within our nation states to be better protected. “One would expect those nation states which have the greatest economic interest in this area to be the leaders of debate and Stewart Hosie: Is it not the case that we will probably discussion, as indeed you would over aspects of European policy end up seeing the European regulatory framework body such as fisheries or agriculture.” negotiating with the United States, Japan and others? I have spent a considerable chunk of my parliamentary That, surely, will be the level at which global negotiation life debating fisheries and agriculture, and I do not find will take place, as in the case of trade talks. Is this not great reassurance in such a reference to the decision-making an interim step in that direction? Rather than 200 countries processes on those matters within Europe. What we negotiating and concluding on a framework global have, therefore, is a hope—or an expectation, to refer to regime, a European body will conduct negotiations on the word used by the Minister—that Britain’s voice on our behalf. these matters will be heard loud and clear. I must admit, however, that I would like more than a hope, and even Mr. Todd: That is the model for trade negotiations more than an expectation, that we will be able to protect now, and it would certainly be a possible logical outcome our interests when decisions are made. of this approach. My constituency does not contain a I had expected to hear some of the points I am financial services community—people make things there, making from official Opposition Members, but such is and I am glad of that—but financial services constitute their new love-in with Mr. de Larosière that perhaps an important part of our economy. I respect that position they have tempered their thinking in this area. We and would wish to defend it, but I do not think that that shall see. would be the best means of defending it. I am not persuaded that the case has been properly Mr. Hoban: This is exactly why we have said in our made, but if we accept that the intellectual basis of paper on financial regulation that we want to have more these changes is a wish to improve market functioning engagement—so we can lead that debate in Europe. The 1011 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1012 Proposals Proposals [Mr. Hoban] Mr. Todd: Probably, but I might be even more absolutist, in that I cannot conceive of an “emergency” in which problem at present is that the Treasury is absent from passing the task to a European agency would genuinely leading the debate, which is why we have ill-thought- add value in dealing with a crisis. The task is to act with through proposals such as the one to which the hon. urgency in many of these circumstances, and to consult Gentleman referred: the alternative investment fund as fast as we reasonably can with others. directive. We all recognise that the financial services sector crosses borders, and entertaining one-liners have been Mr. Todd: That is a slightly slippery response, because thrown into the debate about financial services businesses that is not the point I was making. I agree that the being global in life but national in death. That is obviously physical presence of Ministers and their activist role in true but, in practical terms, it is individual nation states negotiation is important, but I was addressing the outcomes that must make the rapid responses. of such negotiation, even in cases where they are there For all those reasons, I hope that the Government arguing their case. The hon. Gentleman chose not to will act with firmness and a clearer philosophical comment on that. determination about what is in the best interests not We seem to be heading down a path, and I can see only of our financial services sector, important as it is, where its origins lie. There was an understandable reaction but of our taxpayers and our nation as a whole. We have to financial collapse—I sense a lack of confidence, to conceded some ground already and, although I have some extent, in the Anglo-Saxon models of financial doubts about how far we should have gone, I accept services—and a space opened up for activism at the what has been done. We should now make sure that any European level. I can well understand how that arose, regulatory framework that emerges from this process but I am concerned to ensure that we limit this progress clearly adds value to the sector. In addition, it must not as far as possible. Some red lines can be drawn, but my intrude on the nation state’s role in the regulatory worry is whether the lines are really red, or pink. Given operation of the financial services sector, or on a the decision-making process, about which we have had Government’s fiscal responsibility to secure the successful much more informed discussion, I am not utterly persuaded rescue of any business. as to how hard we will be able to hold to those red lines if others do not endorse our positions, however rationally 5.51 pm we put them. Mr. Jeremy Browne (Taunton) (LD): I begin by I want to set out what these red lines should be, congratulating the hon. Member for South Derbyshire although most of them have been mentioned. First, (Mr. Todd) on his speech, in which he appeared to be there should clearly be no intrusion into the fiscal auditioning for the role, in the event of the Conservatives responsibility of individual member states. The hon. winning the next general election, of the new banger- Member for Fareham quoted from the Select Committee together-of-heads in Brussels. Whereas the hon. Member report. Hon. Members may contradict me if I am for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) made a rather equivocal wrong, but I believe that I strengthened some of that speech from the Conservative Front Bench, the hon. report through our debates, and, thus, I endorse its Gentleman gave us something a bit more robust in sentiments. Secondly, there should be no ability—I stress respect of defending the national interest. I look forward the word “no”—for any of these agencies to intervene to his being a GOAT after the next general election, if over the heads of the national regulator; they should indeed there is a change of Government, and to watching not be able to intervene individually with companies or him enjoy a suitable lifestyle in Brussels while he defends to direct the role and actions of the national regulator. our national interest, with zeal and on a daily basis. Neither of those activities is an appropriate function for The backdrop to our deliberations this afternoon—and, the individual European agencies. indeed, yesterday and for many months—is the huge Thirdly, I can see no value in setting aside a particular regulatory and systematic failure of our financial system. function in an “emergency”—quite how one defines That failure has had huge and ongoing consequences that is another matter—to any of the European agencies. and ramifications for our economy, our banking sector Such an approach appears likely not only to raise the and our tax burden. It also led to the enormous deficit issue of legality, which has been touched on, but, more that we as a country are continuing to finance, so those practically, to get in the way of the urgent action that who would like to wish away the circumstances surrounding will be required in many instances. I dread to think what this debate must face up to the fact that we are living would have happened if we had felt that the most now in a situation that is very different from the one appropriate response to the collapse of the Icelandic that existed a year or two ago. We have to ask some banking system and its consequences in the UK was to fundamental questions about how we got into this ask some European agencies how best we should deal position, and how we respond to it. with that. Criticisms of how the Government acted in The fact that the UK has the largest financial sector that instance have been made, but I am much more is the main, but not the only, reason why we found comfortable with having those decisions made by a UK ourselves particularly exposed when the system failed. authority in the interests of UK taxpayers and account That is why many people in Europe might observe that holders, than with passing the task to a European our representatives around the table in Brussels tomorrow agency. will have as much reason to listen as they have to talk, and that there may be aspects of our performance that Christopher Fraser: The hon. Gentleman therefore could be improved on. surely agrees with me that the word “emergency” is so The widespread enthusiasm for greater regulation is ambiguous that the Government need to define better an instinctive and natural response to failure of the type its meaning and applications. that took place. People feel that we must regulate with 1013 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1014 Proposals Proposals more zeal and a greater desire to intervene: I believe I believe that people sometimes reach for regulation—in that the Conservative spokesman, the hon. Member for financial services or any other sector—as a way to try Fareham, used the expression “proactivity”, and I am and bring about a lowest-common-denominator uniformity. sure it is true that we need to be more proactive in that There should be robust competition between institutions, regard, although people mean different things when as that will ensure that they are profitable and successful they talk about regulation. Some want banks to be split and offer value for money to their customers. There up, others want an end to the tripartite arrangement in need to be safeguards, and we have to learn the lessons the UK, while still others fixate particularly on the of the massive failure that has taken place, but we must bonuses paid to people operating in the financial services not restrict financial services institutions to the extent sector. that they are unable to compete and develop in a There is a tendency to lump all those concerns together meaningful and beneficial way. and to demand greater regulatory intervention in the The point has been made by others, including the financial services sector, but how we regulate and how hon. Member for Fareham, that the system being proposed fast we should do it remain open questions. The debate has been advanced with great haste. Of course, that is in this country is obviously very much alive, as we saw also the view of the Treasury Committee. Its initial when we discussed the Financial Services Bill yesterday, report, which was published on 11 November—although but the global circumstances of the collapse that we that was only a few weeks ago, the report has already have just experienced are without precedent. The effects been overtaken by subsequent publications—said: of recessions in the past have of course moved from one country to another, but the consequences of failure are “While the intention of the new regulations is widely welcomed, more profound now thanks to the greater interconnectivity there is a great deal of unease about the detail. There is still more and inter-reliance of the financial services sector. unease about the speed with which it is hoped to agree them; the Presidency is pressing for their adoption by ECOFIN at the Many people have observed that our status as such a Council on 2 December. We consider that is far too fast: the big financial centre proved to be a mixed blessing. As proposals will set in place a framework which should last for the hon. Member for South Derbyshire noted, the many decades, and there should be proper time for consideration.” banks located in London were global institutions yet I do not know whether the deputy Chairman of the the burden of picking up the bill when things went Committee, the hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon), wrong was national. The problem was that those institutions will speak about that observation further, but it is a were so big that it was difficult even for a national reasonable point. The horse has already bolted, so there economy as large as the UK’s to deal with picking up is not such a degree of urgency to deal with the risk the bill without huge implications for Government because, I hope, the chances of a similar failure happening borrowing and indebtedness, and the Government’s in the immediate future are modest. We are trying to exposure in that regard has had many ramifications. deal with the long-term response to the dramatic failure that has already happened, but there is no great pressure Mr. Cash: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is on us to act right now. I share the view of the hon. totally crass for the Government to hand over the Member for Fareham that it would be better to spend running of financial services to the EU, and then to more time on this and get it right than to try to put in saddle themselves with the responsibility for bailing place unsatisfactory measures with great, and perhaps people out when things go wrong? How stupid can you excessive, haste. get? The Government need to take seriously several issues relating to the proposals that will be considered by the Mr. Browne: I am not aware that anyone in this EU tomorrow. My fellow Somerset Member, the right debate has proposed that course of action— hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat-Amory), who is no longer in the Chamber—he clearly lacks my zeal Mr. Cash: It is what this is all about. for this subject—asked the Minister about the system for appointing the people who will sit on these regulatory Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman says, from a sedentary bodies and to whom those people will be accountable. position, that that is what this motion is all about, but I hope that the Minister will respond to those points. I the nub of the debate is whether that is the case. I shall understood from what she said that while she had some deal with that in a moment, but we all acknowledge that views on accountability, she was less clear about the these enormous financial institutions have tentacles that appointment process. reach into many different markets. That is why it is The right hon. Gentleman’s question was legitimate, appropriate for us to ask ourselves whether the regulatory not least because, as I tried to suggest in my intervention, regime that monitors them should have a similar scope, we all know that member states have different opinions and a dimension to its activities that reflects the scale on the way in which the financial services sector should and nature of the organisations being regulated. be regulated. There is widespread suspicion in France Because we have the most advanced financial services about the so-called Anglo-Saxon model of capitalism, sector in Europe and are the dominant players in the and those in France feel somewhat vindicated by the market, the proposals before us today could have some events of the past few years. There is, however, a different benefits for the UK. A market whose general regulation consensus in Britain. The three main parties sometimes applies the same rules to all European countries could have more in common with each other than we do with present opportunities for us to achieve greater profitability the consensus in other EU member states. It is important and wider expansion, as long as there is no improper that there is transparency in the appointment process restriction of our financial services sector. That is important, regarding who gets to occupy a position and to whom because regulation must not restrict legitimate competition. they will be accountable. 1015 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1016 Proposals Proposals [Mr. Jeremy Browne] undue haste because of a desire to be seen to be co-operating at a European level and acting with a It is also important that the status of the City of degree of compromise to ensure that other countries’ London is recognised and not damaged. The hon. Member considerations are taken on board, and then to find for South Derbyshire expressed the view that, given that that those factors lead to structural deficiency in the Britain is so dominant in this regard, it would be weird mechanisms that are put in place. If such a thing if that was not reflected in our ability to contribute to happens, we will come to regret it when the systems are the deliberations. However, others in the EU might tested to destruction as they step into action to try to dispute that principle. On that basis, member states that respond to a future shock. share land borders with non-member states might say I observe the paranoia in the Conservative party that their input into discussions on border security whenever we discuss anything to do with the European should be greater than that of the United Kingdom, Union. There is a belief among Conservative Members which is in a different position. The hon. Gentleman that every negotiation in the EU should involve setting cited fisheries as an area in which some countries have a out Britain’s fears about co-operating with any other greater stake than others. I imagine that Austria, for like-minded country before going into the negotiations example, is less preoccupied with that matter than Britain, with a determination to protect our position, rather Spain or France. There are therefore problems with the than trying to engage in a sensible exchange with other hon. Gentleman’s proposal, but we nevertheless have a EU countries. We have a lot of interesting knowledge clear national strategic interest that the Minister needs and many observations to impart, but we might also to address. have interesting things to learn from other countries, I agree with those who say that fiscal policy is a because our country has not covered itself in glory. If matter for member states, in which regard I hope to the Minister starts tomorrow’s negotiations by saying catch the attention of the hon. Member for Stone that we have lots of red lines because the way in which (Mr. Cash). He is right that taxpayers in his constituency Britain has regulated its financial services sector has and mine, not French and German taxpayers, have been so brilliant that everyone else had better learn financed the bail-out of the banks in the United Kingdom. from us, she might find that that is not the best way to We therefore have to be confident that the taxpayers reach the conclusion that is most beneficial for Britain. whom we represent will not be left to pick up the tab without our having the ability to regulate the institutions Mr. Cash: The hon. Gentleman betrays a remarkable that they ultimately have to protect. It is right and lack of knowledge about the extent to which the French sensible that fiscal policy is the preserve of member in particular and the Germans, who are also going for states, and that should be a settled matter. the European bank, have set their hearts, minds and The Minister needs to give greater clarity, perhaps in political will on doing as much as possible to ensure her winding-up speech, about the interaction between that the City of London does not survive as the main what is proposed and national systems of regulation. If centre in Europe. The hon. Gentleman is completely we in this country are to review the way in which we and totally off the wall. regulate our financial services sector—for example, the Conservative party has radical and far-reaching proposals Mr. Browne: I do not know if I am grateful for that in that regard—that process cannot be seen in isolation intervention. When I spoke about paranoia about the from what is considered suitable on a European scale. European Union, I did not necessarily have the hon. The Minister needs to satisfy herself on several details Gentleman in mind, although he may have identified during both the European negotiations and her deliberations with that feeling. There are many good reasons why in London. For example, what are the procedures for London should be the financial services capital of Europe, data management and security? If the financial services as it offers entrepreneurial dynamism and labour market and banking sectors are to be regulated, that will presumably flexibility, and the fact that we speak English helps. We require large amounts of information to be imparted, should not be burdened by regulation. In fact, I made some of which might be highly sensitive or confidential. the point, which no one else has made, that regulation It is only right that we should be satisfied that such should not be a byword for dumbed-down lowest- information will be handled in a suitably discreet and common-denominator uniformity. It should allow appropriate way. I accept that that point is not the competition and innovation, and in those circumstances absolute nub of the argument—perhaps it is a secondary we should be confident that London and Britain can do issue—but it is important that any system put in place better than other European countries such as France functions effectively.We should not find British institutions, and Germany. I have also advanced the reasonable or even British individuals, being put in an unfortunate argument that it would be a mistake to go into the or undesirable position as a result of malfunctioning negotiations patronising other EU countries by telling European regulation. them that they have everything to learn from our regulation of the financial services sector and we could not conceivably Christopher Fraser: We will. learn anything from them, even though the evidence of the past few years suggests otherwise. Mr. Browne: The hon. Gentleman says that we will, I wish the Minister well, as this is a valid exercise. In a but I want to safeguard against that. I do not wish to world of global interdependence there is a role for a have a disagreement with him—certainly not on this European dimension. We need to make clear the parameters subject—but if we agree a system, it must be robust, of that role and where nation states should rightly and we must test its ability to do its job properly to at retain pre-eminence—that has been usefully discussed least the same extent as if we put a system in place in today. I do not share the somewhat paranoid perspective, this country. We do not want to introduce a system with in my view, of the hon. Member for Stone and others 1017 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1018 Proposals Proposals that any discussion of a European dimension to regulation Another problem is the kind of powers that the is inherently bad. There is a role for it, but we must ESRB will have. Some witnesses who appeared before make sure that it is proportionate and that there are the Treasury Committee thought that it would be something clear lines so that we do not have confusion the next of a talking shop, but that is no bad thing. Across the time there is a financial crisis about which regulatory European architecture, there should be some way for systems have which responsibilities. the ECB governors and others to meet to discuss the issues collectively—that was the bit that was missing between the ECB and the national supervisory authorities 6.12 pm before, and I do not oppose it. Equally, however, our Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): I remind the conclusion was that the board may well be more effective House of my interests recorded in the register. than simply being a forum for discussion, and we said It is not at all clear after 21 minutes of oration from that the Liberal Democrat spokesman exactly where his “it would be a mistake to underestimate the extent of the ESRB’s party stands on the proposals, and whether in fact it potential to trigger real effects”. would not just wave them through. The hon. Member Again, I should like to hear from the Minister whether for Taunton (Mr. Browne) asked for a little more clarity, it is the Government’s position that the board should be for safeguards on data protection and so on, but it is more than a discussion group, and that she is prepared not at all clear where his red lines lie. He accused to concede that it should have some real influence. After Conservative Members of paranoia, but I draw to his all, as we pointed out, if the three so-called ESAs are set attention the Treasury Committee report on the proposals, up, their chairmen will serve on the ESRB and I suspect which is lying on the Table and which was signed by the that in time it will become an important forum. two Liberal Democrat members of the Committee. The The Treasury Committee was unsure of the proper criticisms that the Treasury Committee made of the basis for the powers that will be delegated to the supervisory proposals were made by all parties in the House, particularly authorities. If they have powers to ensure compliance by the two Liberal Democrat Members who signed up with EU law, that takes them to the very edge of to the report. European law. If the powers that are granted to them The proposals are deeply flawed and damaging to the are new, they are outside the existing powers in the City of London and Britain, so they must be resisted. In treaties, so the legal basis for those supervisory authorities my view, the Commission has gone far beyond the remit is extremely tenuous. However, the powers that they are that it was originally given by the European Council in giving themselves are not tenuous—they are very clear. June, as the proposals seek to supervise not only the In articles 9, 10 and 11, the supervisory authorities will domestic regulators but domestic private financial have direct power to give instructions or directions to institutions in member states. They have a dubious legal individual financial institutions. In other words, the basis, as our Committee identified and as we have European banking authority could issue an instruction discussed. They would transfer much more supranational to Barclays bank in the UK, to HSBC, or even to the authority to the Commission than was originally envisaged, Royal Bank of Scotland, which is taxpayer-owned. An and they remove, in their current form, all the safeguards instruction may be received from the authority that that the Heads of Government themselves wanted to would override other interests, including those of include to protect their national taxpayers. shareholders and taxpayers. Not only have the proposals been drawn up in great We need to be much clearer which directives the haste, as hon. Members on both sides of the House banking and other supervisory authorities are supervising. have pointed out, but they ignore the work under way in We were told in evidence to the Committee that various other international forums. Proposals have emerged directives might have to be amended to enable the from the G20, and new work is under way to produce supervisory authorities to supervise the bodies concerned. proposals in the Basel committee. Proposals have emerged Again, before we set up these authorities to supervise from Congress with which these proposals, in the end, other bodies, we should be clear exactly what is being have to sit, otherwise we may well find that we are once supervised. again in the midst of the kind of regulatory arbitrage There is also the issue of an emergency situation. It is that got us into difficulty before, as we are dealing with wrong that the definition of what constitutes an emergency finance houses that are increasingly global in operation. situation should be left to the Commission, of all people. In my intervention on the Minister, I pointed out that Indeed, as the proposal is drafted, it would simply be in the draft as it stands there is absolutely no guarantee for the Commission to decide that there are some that the non-eurozone countries will be properly represented “adverse developments” somewhere across the European on the proposed European systemic risk board. To me, Union. It can then declare an emergency situation, and I think to my hon. Friend the Member for Fareham which triggers a series of new executive powers. That is (Mr. Hoban), that should be a red line that applies not not the Commission’s job, nor is the Commission the simply to the United Kingdom but to other important right body to do this. The Commission does not have a financial countries such as Sweden that are outside the balance sheet or a direct relationship with the European eurozone. It is essential that the non-eurozone countries Central Bank, and it has no interest in protecting the are represented on the board, and I hope that when the interests of national taxpayers. Minister makes her winding-up speech, she will make it clear that that is in fact one of the Government’s red Mr. Cash: Does my hon. Friend agree that the European lines and is not simply an aspiration. We should not Commission, being the ultimate bureaucratic executive agree to a proposal to set up the board if it does not and the responsible body—these regulations are about include proper representation as a requirement for the regulatory arrangements and are the highest of legal non-eurozone countries. instruments that must be implemented by member states—is 1019 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1020 Proposals Proposals [Mr. Cash] supervisors and our own domestic supervisor, the Financial Services Authority, or for the Financial Services Authority acting in a manner that will inevitably lead to a non- to be treated simply as a consultative body—one of the competitive environment, because the Commission itself parish councils of Europe, its opinion asked for and is basically undemocratic? It is bureaucratic, and all the then ignored. fears that my hon. Friend has expressed will come about It is bad enough that, through the neglect of its because of the failure of the culture within the European European policy, we have ended up with the future Union to understand that that is the basis on which the regulation of the City of London now in the hands of a Commission operates, and it should not be allowed to French Commissioner. That will be extended by these do so. The Government are seriously in error and proposals so that we are in the hands not only of a should be condemned for allowing such a situation to French Commissioner, but of a band of supranational come about. authorities. That will be very damaging to London, to the United Kingdom and to the European Union, of Mr. Fallon: My hon. Friend makes his point, again, which London is such an important financial centre. extremely powerfully. I am depressed by the attitude of the Minister and I still think that the Commission is the wrong body the Government. Throughout the evolution of these for the task, and I am somewhat encouraged that in proposals, they have been silent, lackadaisical and evidence to us, Lord Myners said: complacent. The red lines have kept shifting. The Minister “I cannot conceive of a situation in which the Commission would did not mention red lines today. She had to be challenged be the natural body to be able to formulate a view on what each time to get out of her what the red lines might be. constituted an emergency situation.” It was an ill omen that the Government have conceded Given that those are the words of the Financial Services all three of the top economic jobs to non-British nationals. Secretary in evidence to the Committee, I assume that We need, above all, a Minister who will stand up for that must be a red line for the Chancellor tomorrow. We British interests in Brussels. If this Minister cannot and need to remove any suggestion that the Commission this Government will not, they should make way for should declare an emergency situation, and ensure that somebody who will. our interests are properly protected. My final point is one that has been touched on by 6.27 pm hon. Members on both sides of the House—the fiscal Christopher Fraser (South-West Norfolk) (Con): It safeguard. In the conclusions of the European Council gives me great pleasure to speak after my hon. Friend in June, the Council was emphatic, and the Prime the Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon), a person who Minister repeated the exact wording here in the House, has proved time and again that he understands the that these arrangements issues and is a wise and sage voice in this debate. “should not impinge in any way on the fiscal responsibilities of Member States.”—[Official Report, 23 June 2009; Vol. 494, c. 661.] There is no question but that our financial institutions and the City are undergoing a difficult and challenging However, we now see in the drafts for all three authorities time, and there is no doubt that reform of our financial that if a member state feels that its fiscal responsibilities system is necessary. We need better and more effective may be impinged by the powers that are exercised, oversight of the financial services sector, a banking under articles 10 or 11 it can appeal only to a majority system that properly supports small business, and vote of the Council. That is no safeguard at all, when recognition that the current tripartite system needs the United Kingdom or another member state can be replacing. However, any changes made must not come outvoted after a discussion as to what constitutes an at the expense of the City’s competitiveness and ability impingement. That is not satisfactory. to innovate. We know that the proposal is not satisfactory because Last month the World Economic Forum announced in its justification of the power, the Commission argues that the City of London had overtaken New York as the that the appeal power should be exercised sparingly. It world’s leading financial centre. That is excellent news. may be that the Commission does not want any dispute The City’s long-term success will play a key role in to arise and hopes that such a dispute will never arise. It boosting our economy at home and the wider European does not want the power of appeal to a majority vote to economy. Given that the Government have given away be exercised under normal circumstances. the vital role of Commissioner for the Internal Market The other great weakness of the fiscal safeguard is and Services to France, as my hon. Friend pointed out, that it extends only to action under articles 10 and 11. It and to a politician who has a reputation for stringent does not extend to article 21 powers, after a warning by protectionism, can the Minister tell the House what the systemic risk board, which may follow from the assessment has been made of the direct implications of declaration of an emergency situation by the Commission. this new appointment for the City of London? It is an All parties in the Select Committee were very clear, as extremely important point, which I hope the hon. Lady has already been read out to the House, that the veto addresses when she winds up the debate shortly. Does must be available and must be absolute. I appeal to the she accept that future growth in this country could be Minister to reassure the House that standing behind undermined as a result? Why was not the Government’s that veto and ensuring that we are not put in the priority to ensure that that Commissioner’s job came to position of relying on a majority vote will be one of the the UK, for the reasons that I have just described? red lines in Brussels tomorrow. The proposals before us seek to create three European I fear for the consequences of these proposals if they supervisory authorities with rule-making and binding go through in anything like their current form. I see a mediation powers: the European banking authority, the recipe either for endless conflict between the new European European insurance and occupational pensions authority 1021 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1022 Proposals Proposals and the European securities and markets authority. The to avoid tighter EU regulations and heavier tax burdens. regulations also establish the European systemic risk That has to be worrying news, and the Government board, which will allow for macro-prudential oversight must do all they can to ensure that private firms are of the financial system, but it is worth repeating some given the proper incentives to operate in the United of the Treasury Committee’s report, which was published Kingdom, albeit ethically and responsibly. That must earlier this month and has been referred to many times be taken into account when we consider how we operate in this debate. It states: from here on in, given what has gone on in the past. “There is a great…unease about the detail. There is still more What is the Minister’s response to the news that some unease about the speed with which it is hoped to agree them… the private firms are choosing to move out of the UK? That proposals will set in place a framework which should last for point has not been addressed in the debate, so I hope many decades, and there should be proper time for consideration.” that she will spend a couple of minutes telling the Does the Minister share the concerns of that Committee? House her view, because that move has wider implications If not, will she admit that the Government are placing for the financial centre in the City of London, for the the need for new systems of international regulation companies dealing in hedge funds and for all the other above the need for careful consideration and impact organisations and companies that serve that industry. assessment? Does she envisage the proposals being approved That move will have ramifications for employment prospects by 2 December, which after all is only tomorrow, as the in the City and beyond as a result. Is she concerned that Swedish presidency has called for? I am not clear whether it will set a precedent, and that further regulation will she suggested earlier that things will go through as exacerbate the problem? planned or whether she was sitting on the fence, because I worry that reform of financial services regulation she was not quite clear about what will actually happen. will harm the UK’s financial services sector if it is She has a valuable opportunity this evening to outline undertaken without due care and, most importantly, in more detail what she envisages happening at the consideration. We must ensure that our economic interests discussions tomorrow. are fully protected and, importantly, upheld, but Ministers I am sure I do not have to stress that putting forward have been too slow to defend in Brussels the interests of without proper examination proposals that have far- the City. That was demonstrated neatly by the recent reaching and serious consequences for the UK’s financial internal markets commissionership, as I have already sector could genuinely be detrimental to us here in the described. I wait to see how the Government approach United Kingdom. I understand that the Government the redrafted directive on alternative investment fund had hoped to secure a rotating chairmanship of the managers, and I call on Ministers to ensure that any ESRB, but they failed to do so. Will the Minister proposals enhance the UK’s financial industry, rather elaborate on those negotiations? They are crucial to the than damaging it in the way that my hon. Friend the way in which we consider the proposals before us. Member for Sevenoaks described. Are the Government satisfied that the structural As I stated as the start of my speech, the City is the arrangements for the ESRB are in Britain’s interest? world’s financial centre and the UK Government should From today’s discussions, I am not so sure that there is a lead and drive the debate about regulatory reform. So great consensus on that in the Chamber, and the Minister far, all the evidence points towards Ministers taking owes it to the House to be clear about that. The Treasury the back seat. That is the wrong way to go forward in Committee’s report also highlighted concerns about the the best interests of our nation and our standing on the size of the board. What is the Minister’s assessment of world stage. the Committee’s comments in that respect? Does she accept that with more than 60 institutions represented, the decision making of the ESRB will be neither effective 6.37 pm nor efficient? Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank all hon. Members for I have concerns about the capacity of the three European their participation in this debate. There has been a supervisory authorities to give binding technical standards theme, in that the hon. Members for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon) to member states and, directly, to institutions in emergency and for South-West Norfolk (Christopher Fraser), and circumstances. I should like to put to the Minister yet others, said that they did not believe that the Government again the question that has been posed several times in were engaged. I disagree and assure them that the the debate: can she be more specific about what will Government have been, and continue to be, heavily qualify as an emergency circumstance? What safeguards engaged at official and ministerial levels. Indeed, over will be put in place to ensure that the powers of national the past months UK officials have consulted on and regulators—this is the crucial part—are not undermined? discussed the key legislative proposals with numerous Any decisions that have fiscal implications for the British member states. Those meetings have informed others of taxpayer should, without a doubt, remain with national our positions and enabled us better to understand our regulators, but it is unclear how that corresponds to the European partners’ views. We have strong working supervisory authority’s ability to make binding decisions. relationships and regular dialogue throughout the EU. I should very much like the Minister to clarify that On hedge funds, the alternative investment fund managers point to me and to the House this evening. directive, which has been mentioned, is a key example Following that, there is a concern that the powers of a situation in which the Commission’s initial legislative associated with the ESA might run contrary to what is proposal was unacceptable. As a result of significant allowed under current EU legislation, so what is being work by officials and Ministers, however, we have seen done to resolve those very reasonable concerns? The considerable improvements to it, and my noble Friend Minister will be aware that some hedge fund managers Lord Myners has personally committed a substantial and other financial service professionals are moving part of his time to achieving a good outcome for the offshore, to places such as New York and Switzerland, UK on EU directives. He has had useful discussions 1023 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1024 Proposals Proposals [Sarah McCarthy-Fry] with before—Jonathan Faull. President Barroso has said that he intends to appoint a senior British official with many EU stakeholders, including Members of the to lead work on economic and financial issues in his European Parliament, the Swedish presidency and the cabinet. We understand from Monsieur Barnier that incoming Spanish presidency. there will be a senior Briton in his cabinet dealing with Many hon. Members spoke about the timetable, and financial services, and that he will want someone who is we were very clear that national Parliaments needed known to the City. time to scrutinise the proposals. The Chancellor’s view at the October ECOFIN meeting was that October was Christopher Fraser: Will the Minister please answer far too early to sign up to a general approach, but we my question about what assessment she has made of the always said that we would aim for agreement on the implications of these new appointments for the City of complete package by December, and that was included London? It is all very well giving us the CVs of the in the explanatory memorandum. different people involved and quotes from other people, but we in this House need to know the Government’s The timeline was set out at the June European Council. view on the direct implications for the City. We hope that tomorrow, ECOFIN will agree on the general approach, which will then become the Council negotiating position through the European Parliament. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thought that that was what I The European Parliament, through its Committee on was doing in quoting Monsieur Barnier when he said Economic and Monetary Affairs, will agree its negotiating that he sees the importance of the City of London, not position; the Council presidency, the Commission and just to the UK but to the EU. the European Parliament will identify, if necessary, a A couple of hon. Members said that the fiscal safeguard compromise position; changes will be approved, or clause appears to be contradictory, because if this is otherwise, by ECOFIN in the spring; and the European covered in the legislation we should not need an opt-out Parliament will vote on the agreement. That is the clause. The whole point is that it should, in practice, timetable. never need to be used. It is clearly stated in the legislation The hon. Members for Fareham (Mr. Hoban) and for that the ESAs are required to ensure that they do not South-West Norfolk, and many others, spoke about last impinge on member states’ fiscal responsibilities, so that week’s Commission appointments. I think that those is not a problem. decisions, and those taken by the European Council, are good for Britain, good for Europe and good for Mr. Hoban: The Minister makes that assertion, but it Britain in Europe. We have, in Baroness Ashton and her is possible for the ESAs to override national supervisors appointment as High Representative for Foreign Affairs to make decisions that impact on fiscal responsibility, and Security Policy, someone who gives Britain a powerful and that member states then have to appeal against. voice in the Commission and the Council, and she is the Clearly the Government’s red line is not being respected only commissioner to have a key role in the Council, in this area. too. As vice-president of the Commission, she will have a central and important role in driving progress across Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government have a very the full range of issues. She will be able to speak up on clear red line in this area. Is the hon. Gentleman saying and have influence over all the issues, including those that the clause should not be there at all? We are very that matter most to the British public—economic recovery, clear that the new framework should not impinge on security and tackling climate change. member states’ fiscal responsibilities. On the appointment of Monsieur Barnier, it seems Let me turn to the legal basis and respond to some of strange that some Frenchmen are wonderful and some the detailed questions on that. On the delegation of are not. People are happy to quote Monsieur de Larosière powers to the ESAs, the Commission is, as the European but not so happy with Monsieur Barnier. I hope that Scrutiny Committee has recognised, legally able under hon. Members will note what he said in an interview on the treaty to delegate powers to the new supervisory the radio yesterday: authorities where it had that power in the first place and “I know the importance of the City. I know the importance of where the decision-making powers delegated do not this major financial centre for growth in Britain and the economy involve wide discretion. We are looking closely at the of Europe as a whole.” element whereby, under the current legislative proposal, the supervisory authorities appear to be able to exercise Stuart Fraser, the chairman of the policy and resources discretion. That is what we have to work through in committee of the City of London Corporation, has respect of the legal basis. Clearly, the new framework said: must be able to withstand legal challenge. “I have every confidence that, together, we can forge a constructive working relationship.” Mr. Hoban: If tomorrow’s ECOFIN does not reach We believe that in his hearings before the European an agreement that provides that legal clarity, is the Parliament, Monsieur Barnier will demonstrate his Chancellor prepared to defer further discussion until its commitment to valuing and promoting the interests of next meeting in the spring? the City of London as Europe’s principal financial centre. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As I said, we are hoping to In addition, Britain will have a number of senior agree a general approach at ECOFIN. The process is official posts in the new Commission. Monsieur Barnier ongoing, according to the timetable that I outlined. We has asked the President of the Commission, in the are satisfied that article 95 of the EC treaty is an course of the next rotation of director general appointments, appropriate legal base for the new European supervisory to appoint an official he knows well and has worked authorities. 1025 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1026 Proposals Proposals The hon. Member for Fareham asked whether the ESAs regulatory arbitrage. However, we need to ensure that have the power to implement the ESRB recommendations day-to-day supervision and crisis management on fiscal impacts. Those recommendations are an early arrangements remain national. I value the contributions warning system for action to protect financial stability that hon. Members have made to the debate, and I am that are addressed to member states, supervisory authorities sure that the Chancellor will take note of them in his and central banks. If there were a fiscal impact, such discussions at ECOFIN tomorrow. I think we all agree recommendations would not be addressed to ESAs but on the importance of maintaining our position that this to member states themselves. framework must not impinge on member states’ fiscal A question was asked about whether further discussions responsibilities, and that there should be no powers to on proposals would be binding in relation to the European undermine national supervision. Council. Anything that is included in the final co-decided Question put. text will be binding. The text under discussion at ECOFIN The House proceeded to a Division. is about the Council’s position. If the European Parliament disagrees with something, an agreement on the exact Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I ask the wording will take place between the Council and the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in the Aye European Parliament, and at that point, it would be Lobby. binding. The House having divided: Ayes 256, Noes 188. My hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) and the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Browne) Division No. 6] [6.48 pm asked about the ESAs’ decision-making process and whether we will have the same weight as other member AYES states. We expect to exercise significant influence through Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Coaker, Mr. Vernon the Financial Services Authority, because rule making Allen, Mr. Graham Coffey, Ann is expected to take place under the weighted qualified Anderson, Mr. David Cohen, Harry majority voting procedure used in the European Council. Anderson, Janet Cooper, Rosie That will ensure that the FSA has a substantial number Atkins, Charlotte Cooper, rh Yvette of votes. Bailey, Mr. Adrian Corbyn, Jeremy Bain, Mr. William Crausby, Mr. David Baird, Vera Cruddas, Jon Mr. Todd: My hon. Friend carefully used the same Balls, rh Ed Cryer, Mrs. Ann word as Lord Myners in saying she “expects” that to be Banks, Gordon Cummings, John the case. What if that expectation is not met? Barlow, Ms Celia Cunningham, Mr. Jim Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Cunningham, Tony Sarah McCarthy-Fry: That is the same question that Battle, rh John Davidson, Mr. Ian Bayley, Hugh Dean, Mrs. Janet we have heard all evening. We are going into the negotiations Beckett, rh Margaret Denham, rh Mr. John tomorrow to deliver the best outcome for the UK, and Begg, Miss Anne Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit for the UK within the EU. Bell, Sir Stuart Dismore, Mr. Andrew The right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Heathcoat- Benton, Mr. Joe Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Amory) and the hon. Member for Taunton asked about Berry, Roger Doran, Mr. Frank the appointment process. The FSA will have the UK Betts, Mr. Clive Eagle, Angela seat on the ESA. The appointments of the secretary-general Blackman, Liz Eagle, Maria and the staffing secretariat will follow normal EU Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Efford, Clive appointments procedure under the staffing regulations. Blizzard, Mr. Bob Ellman, Mrs. Louise Blunkett, rh Mr. David Engel, Natascha The chairs of ESAs are voted for by the ESAs themselves Borrow, Mr. David S. Farrelly, Paul from within their memberships. As with members of Brennan, Kevin Field, rh Mr. Frank the European Commission, the appointment will be Brown, Lyn Fisher, Mark subject to confirmation by the European Parliament. Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Fitzpatrick, Jim The hon. Member for Taunton asked about information Brown, Mr. Russell Flello, Mr. Robert sharing and confidentiality. The information-sharing Browne, rh Des Follett, Barbara provisions in the legislation are subject to strict Buck, Ms Karen Foster, Mr. Michael confidentiality requirements. That has been standard Burden, Richard (Worcester) practice since the establishment of the single market. Burnham, rh Andy Foster, Michael Jabez Butler, Ms Dawn (Hastings and Rye) The hon. Member for Sevenoaks (Mr. Fallon) asked Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Francis, Dr. Hywel about representation from the non-eurozone on the Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Gapes, Mike ESRB. Of course we want representation from the Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Gardiner, Barry non-eurozone. During the ECOFIN discussions in October, Campbell, Mr. Alan George, rh Mr. Bruce the Chancellor stressed the need to ensure an appropriate Caton, Mr. Martin Gerrard, Mr. Neil balance of eurozone and non-eurozone members. We Cawsey, Mr. Ian Gilroy, Linda are confident that that position will be reflected in the Challen, Colin Godsiff, Mr. Roger Council’s discussions with the European Parliament Chapman, Ben Goodman, Helen and, as I said, any agreed wording will then be binding. Chaytor, Mr. David Griffith, Nia Clapham, Mr. Michael Gwynne, Andrew We strongly support moves to improve the quality Clark, Ms Katy Hain, rh Mr. Peter and consistency of supervision to ensure more effective Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hall, Mr. Mike rule making and enforcement, and better to identify Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hall, Patrick risks. We want to be part of an EU playing a greater Clelland, Mr. David Hamilton, Mr. David leadership role in setting global standards and avoiding Clwyd, rh Ann Hamilton, Mr. Fabian 1027 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 European Financial Services 1028 Proposals Proposals Hanson, rh Mr. David Miller, Andrew Turner, Mr. Neil Wilson, Phil Harman, rh Ms Harriet Mitchell, Mr. Austin Vaz, rh Keith Winnick, Mr. David Harris, Mr. Tom Moffat, Anne Walley, Joan Woolas, Mr. Phil Havard, Mr. Dai Moffatt, Laura Waltho, Lynda Wright, David Healey, rh John Mole, Chris Wareing, Mr. Robert N. Wright, Mr. Iain Hendrick, Mr. Mark Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Dr. Tony Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Morden, Jessica Whitehead, Dr. Alan Wyatt, Derek Hesford, Stephen Morgan, Julie Wicks, rh Malcolm Tellers for the Ayes: Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Williams, rh Mr. Alan Mr. John Heppell and Heyes, David Mountford, Kali Wills, rh Mr. Michael Mr. Dave Watts Hill, rh Keith Mudie, Mr. George Hodge, rh Margaret Mullin, Mr. Chris Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Munn, Meg NOES Hope, Phil Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Afriyie, Adam Goldsworthy, Julia Howarth, rh Mr. George Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Goodwill, Mr. Robert Howells, rh Dr. Kim Naysmith, Dr. Doug Alexander, Danny Gove, Michael Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Norris, Dan Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Gray, Mr. James Humble, Mrs. Joan Osborne, Sandra Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Green, Damian Hutton, rh Mr. John Owen, Albert Atkinson, Mr. Peter Greening, Justine Iddon, Dr. Brian Palmer, Dr. Nick Bacon, Mr. Richard Grieve, Mr. Dominic Illsley, Mr. Eric Pearson, Ian Baldry, Tony Gummer, rh Mr. John Irranca-Davies, Huw Plaskitt, Mr. James Barker, Gregory Hammond, Mr. Philip Jackson, Glenda Pope, Mr. Greg Baron, Mr. John Hammond, Stephen James, Mrs. Siân C. Prentice, Bridget Beith, rh Sir Alan Harper, Mr. Mark Jenkins, Mr. Brian Prentice, Mr. Gordon Bellingham, Mr. Henry Harvey, Nick Johnson, rh Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Benyon, Mr. Richard Hayes, Mr. John Johnson, Ms Diana R. Prosser, Gwyn Beresford, Sir Paul Heath, Mr. David Jones, Helen Purchase, Mr. Ken Blunt, Mr. Crispin Heathcoat-Amory, rh Jones, Lynne Rammell, Bill Bone, Mr. Peter Mr. David Jones, Mr. Martyn Reed, Mr. Andy Brady, Mr. Graham Hemming, John Joyce, Mr. Eric Reed, Mr. Jamie Brokenshire, James Hendry, Charles Keeble, Ms Sally Riordan, Mrs. Linda Brooke, Annette Hoban, Mr. Mark Keeley, Barbara Robertson, John Browne, Mr. Jeremy Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Keen, Alan Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Browning, Angela Hollobone, Mr. Philip Keen, Ann Rooney, Mr. Terry Bruce, rh Malcolm Horam, Mr. John Kelly, rh Ruth Roy, Mr. Frank Burns, Mr. Simon Horwood, Martin Kemp, Mr. Fraser Roy, Lindsay Burt, Alistair Hosie, Stewart Kidney, Mr. David Ruane, Chris Burt, Lorely Howarth, David Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Ruddock, Joan Cable, Dr. Vincent Howarth, Mr. Gerald Knight, rh Jim Russell, Christine Campbell, Mr. Gregory Howell, John Kumar, Dr. Ashok Ryan, rh Joan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hughes, Simon Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Salter, Martin Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Huhne, Chris Lammy, rh Mr. David Seabeck, Alison Carswell, Mr. Douglas Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Laxton, Mr. Bob Sharma, Mr. Virendra Cash, Mr. William Hurd, Mr. Nick Lazarowicz, Mark Sheerman, Mr. Barry Clark, Greg Jack, rh Mr. Michael Lepper, David Sheridan, Jim Cormack, Sir Patrick Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Levitt, Tom Simon, Mr. Siôn Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Jones, Mr. David Lewis, Mr. Ivan Simpson, Alan Curry, rh Mr. David Kawczynski, Daniel Linton, Martin Skinner, Mr. Dennis Davies, Mr. Dai Keetch, Mr. Paul Lloyd, Tony Slaughter, Mr. Andy Davies, Philip Kirkbride, Miss Julie Lucas, Ian Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Davis, rh David Knight, rh Mr. Greg Mackinlay, Andrew Smith, Ms Angela C. Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Laing, Mrs. Eleanor Mactaggart, Fiona (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen Lait, Mrs. Jacqui Mallaber, Judy Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Drew, Mr. David Lamb, Norman Mann, John Smith, Geraldine Duncan, Alan Lancaster, Mr. Mark Marris, Rob Snelgrove, Anne Dunne, Mr. Philip Lansley, Mr. Andrew Marsden, Mr. Gordon Soulsby, Sir Peter Evennett, Mr. David Laws, Mr. David Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Southworth, Helen Fabricant, Michael Leech, Mr. John Martlew, Mr. Eric Spellar, rh Mr. John Fallon, Mr. Michael Leigh, Mr. Edward McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Farron, Tim Lewis, Dr. Julian McCabe, Steve Stewart, Ian Featherstone, Lynne Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian McCarthy, Kerry Stoate, Dr. Howard Field, Mr. Mark Loughton, Tim McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Foster, Mr. Don Luff, Peter McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Fox, Dr. Liam Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Tami, Mark Francois, Mr. Mark Maclean, rh David McGrady, Mr. Eddie Taylor, Ms Dari Fraser, Christopher MacNeil, Mr. Angus McIsaac, Shona Thornberry, Emily Gale, Mr. Roger Maples, Mr. John McKechin, Ann Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Garnier, Mr. Edward Mason, John McKenna, Rosemary Tipping, Paddy Gauke, Mr. David Mates, rh Mr. Michael McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Touhig, rh Mr. Don George, Andrew Maude, rh Mr. Francis Michael, rh Alun Trickett, Jon Gibb, Mr. Nick McCrea, Dr. William Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Turner, Dr. Desmond Gidley, Sandra McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick 1029 European Financial Services 1 DECEMBER 2009 1030 Proposals Milton, Anne Streeter, Mr. Gary (v) 13654/09; Moss, Mr. Malcolm Stuart, Mr. Graham (h) 13658/09, Commission Staff Working Document– Mulholland, Greg Stunell, Andrew Summary of the Impact Assessment; and Mundell, David Swayne, Mr. Desmond (i) 15093/09, Proposal for a Directive of the European Parliament Murrison, Dr. Andrew Swinson, Jo and of the Council amending Directives 1998/26/EC, 2002/87/EC, Neill, Robert Tapsell, Sir Peter 2003/6/EC, 2003/41/EC, 2003/71/EC, 2004/39/EC, 2004/109/EC, Newmark, Mr. Brooks Taylor, David 2005/60/EC, 2006/48/EC, 2006/49/EC and 2009/65/EC in respect Osborne, Mr. George Taylor, Matthew of the powers of the European Banking Authority, the European Ottaway, Richard Taylor, Dr. Richard Insurance and Occupational Pensions Authority and the European Paice, Mr. James Thurso, John Securities and Markets Authority; Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Timpson, Mr. Edward and endorses the Government’s approach to setting up a new Paterson, Mr. Owen Turner, Mr. Andrew financial supervisory structure in the EU. Pelling, Mr. Andrew Vaizey, Mr. Edward Penning, Mike Vara, Mr. Shailesh Prisk, Mr. Mark Walker, Mr. Charles Business without Debate Pritchard, Mark Waterson, Mr. Nigel Randall, Mr. John Watkinson, Angela CENSUS Reid, Mr. Alan Webb, Steve Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): I must inform Rennie, Willie Weir, Mr. Mike the House that Mr. Speaker has selected the Robathan, Mr. Andrew Whittingdale, Mr. John Robertson, Angus Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann amendment in the name of Dan Rogerson. Robertson, Hugh Wiggin, Bill Motion made, and Question proposed, Rogerson, Dan Willetts, Mr. David That the words in item 1 ‘connection to the household or Rowen, Paul Williams, Hywel accommodation and whether or not an individual return has Russell, Bob Williams, Mark been issued for that person’, item 2, the words in item 3(a) ‘and Sanders, Mr. Adrian Williams, Mr. Roger the relationship to each of the previous persons named in the Scott, Mr. Lee Williams, Stephen return,’ the words in item 3(b) ‘in the case of any person named Selous, Andrew Willis, Mr. Phil seventh or at any higher number in a return’ and ‘and to any Shapps, Grant Willott, Jenny other person named at a previous number higher than six in the return’, the words in item 4 ‘connection to the household or Shepherd, Mr. Richard Wilson, Mr. Rob accommodation,’ items 5, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, the words in Simmonds, Mark Wilson, Sammy item 16 ‘Whether the person describes themselves as: English, Simpson, Mr. Keith Winterton, Ann Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, British, or any other national Smith, Chloe Wishart, Pete identity (stating which)’, items 20, 21, the words in item 22(b) ‘on Smith, Sir Robert Yeo, Mr. Tim a Government sponsored training scheme’, items 23, 24, the Spicer, Sir Michael Tellers for the Noes: words in item 26(b) ‘the mode of transport used for the longest Spink, Bob James Duddridge and part, by distance, of the usual journey to work’, items 31, 32, 33, Spring, Mr. Richard Jeremy Wright 35 and 36 of Schedule 2, and items 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 of Schedule 3 to the draft Census (England and Wales) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 21 October, in the previous Session of Question accordingly agreed to. Parliament, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Resolved, Amendment proposed: (a), at end add That this House takes note of the following European Union ‘subject to the following modification: in item 16 of Schedule 2, Documents— after the word ‘Irish’ insert ‘, Cornish’.’—(Dan Rogerson.) (a) 13645/09, Proposal for a Council Decision entrusting the Question put forthwith (Order, 23 November), That European Central Bank with concerning the functioning of the the amendment be made. European Systemic Risk Board; (b) 13648/09, Proposal for a regulation of the European Parliament The House divided: Ayes 49, Noes 261. and the Council on Community macro prudential oversight of Division No. 7] [7.4 pm the financial system and establishing a European Systemic Risk AYES Board; (c) 13652/09, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Alexander, Danny Hughes, Simon Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Banking Beith, rh Sir Alan Huhne, Chris Authority; Brooke, Annette Keetch, Mr. Paul (d) 13653/09, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Browne, Mr. Jeremy Lamb, Norman Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Insurance Bruce, rh Malcolm Laws, Mr. David and Occupational Pensions Authority; Burt, Lorely Mackinlay, Andrew (e) 13654/09, Proposal for a Regulation of the European Cable, Dr. Vincent Moore, Mr. Michael Parliament and of the Council establishing a European Securities Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Mulholland, Greg and Markets Authority; Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Pelling, Mr. Andrew (f) 13656/09, Commission Staff Working Document–Possible Corbyn, Jeremy Reid, Mr. Alan amendments to Financial Services legislation–accompanying Davies, Mr. Dai Rennie, Willie document to— Farron, Tim Rogerson, Dan (i) 13652/09 Featherstone, Lynne Rowen, Paul (ii) 13653/09 Foster, Mr. Don Russell, Bob (iii) 13654/09; George, Andrew Sanders, Mr. Adrian Gidley, Sandra Smith, Sir Robert (g) 13657/09, Commission Staff Working Document–Impact Goldsworthy, Julia Spink, Bob Assessment–accompanying document to— Harvey, Nick Stunell, Andrew (i) 13645/09 Heath, Mr. David Swinson, Jo (ii) 13648/09 Hemming, John Taylor, Matthew (iii) 13652/09 Horwood, Martin Thurso, John (iv) 13653/09 Howarth, David Webb, Steve 1031 Business without Debate1 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 1032

Williams, Hywel Willis, Mr. Phil Keen, Ann Rammell, Bill Williams, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Kelly, rh Ruth Reed, Mr. Andy Williams, Mr. Roger Jenny Willott and Kemp, Mr. Fraser Reed, Mr. Jamie Williams, Stephen Mr. John Leech Kidney, Mr. David Riordan, Mrs. Linda Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Robertson, John Knight, rh Jim Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey NOES Kumar, Dr. Ashok Rooney, Mr. Terry Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Doran, Mr. Frank Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Roy, Mr. Frank Allen, Mr. Graham Drew, Mr. David Lammy, rh Mr. David Roy, Lindsay Anderson, Mr. David Eagle, Angela Laxton, Mr. Bob Ruane, Chris Anderson, Janet Eagle, Maria Lazarowicz, Mark Ruddock, Joan Atkins, Charlotte Efford, Clive Lepper, David Russell, Christine Bailey, Mr. Adrian Ellman, Mrs. Louise Levitt, Tom Ryan, rh Joan Bain, Mr. William Engel, Natascha Lewis, Mr. Ivan Salter, Martin Baird, Vera Farrelly, Paul Linton, Martin Seabeck, Alison Banks, Gordon Fisher, Mark Lloyd, Tony Sharma, Mr. Virendra Barlow, Ms Celia Fitzpatrick, Jim Lucas, Ian Sheerman, Mr. Barry Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Flello, Mr. Robert Mactaggart, Fiona Sheridan, Jim Battle, rh John Follett, Barbara Malik, Mr. Shahid Simon, Mr. Siôn Bayley, Hugh Foster, Mr. Michael Mallaber, Judy Simpson, Alan Beckett, rh Margaret (Worcester) Mann, John Skinner, Mr. Dennis Begg, Miss Anne Foster, Michael Jabez Marris, Rob Slaughter, Mr. Andy Bell, Sir Stuart (Hastings and Rye) Marsden, Mr. Gordon Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Benton, Mr. Joe Francis, Dr. Hywel Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Smith, Ms Angela C. Berry, Roger Gapes, Mike Martlew, Mr. Eric (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Betts, Mr. Clive Gardiner, Barry McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, rh Angela E. Blackman, Liz George, rh Mr. Bruce McCabe, Steve (Basildon) Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Gerrard, Mr. Neil McCarthy, Kerry Smith, Geraldine Blizzard, Mr. Bob Gilroy, Linda McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Snelgrove, Anne Blunkett, rh Mr. David Godsiff, Mr. Roger McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Soulsby, Sir Peter Brennan, Kevin Goodman, Helen McCrea, Dr. William Southworth, Helen Brown, Lyn Griffith, Nia McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Spellar, rh Mr. John Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gwynne, Andrew McGrady, Mr. Eddie Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Brown, Mr. Russell Hain, rh Mr. Peter McIsaac, Shona Stewart, Ian Browne, rh Des Hall, Mr. Mike McKechin, Ann Stoate, Dr. Howard Bryant, Chris Hall, Patrick McKenna, Rosemary Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Buck, Ms Karen Hamilton, Mr. David McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Burden, Richard Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Michael, rh Alun Tami, Mark Burnham, rh Andy Hanson, rh Mr. David Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Taylor, Ms Dari Butler, Ms Dawn Harman, rh Ms Harriet Miliband, rh David Taylor, David Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Harris, Mr. Tom Miller, Andrew Taylor, Dr. Richard Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Havard, Mr. Dai Mitchell, Mr. Austin Thornberry, Emily Campbell, Mr. Alan Healey, rh John Moffat, Anne Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Moffatt, Laura Campbell, Mr. Gregory Hendrick, Mr. Mark Tipping, Paddy Caton, Mr. Martin Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Mole, Chris Todd, Mr. Mark Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hesford, Stephen Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Touhig, rh Mr. Don Challen, Colin Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Morden, Jessica Trickett, Jon Chapman, Ben Heyes, David Morgan, Julie Turner, Dr. Desmond Chaytor, Mr. David Hill, rh Keith Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Clapham, Mr. Michael Hodge, rh Margaret Mountford, Kali Turner, Mr. Neil Clark, Ms Katy Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Mudie, Mr. George Vaz, rh Keith Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Hope, Phil Mullin, Mr. Chris Walley, Joan Clarke,rhMr.Tom Howarth, rh Mr. George Munn, Meg Waltho, Lynda Clelland, Mr. David Howells, rh Dr. Kim Murphy, Mr. Denis Watson, Mr. Tom Clwyd, rh Ann Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Whitehead, Dr. Alan Coaker, Mr. Vernon Humble, Mrs. Joan Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Wicks, rh Malcolm Coffey, Ann Hutton, rh Mr. John Naysmith, Dr. Doug Williams, rh Mr. Alan Cohen, Harry Iddon, Dr. Brian Norris, Dan Wills, rh Mr. Michael Cooper, Rosie Illsley, Mr. Eric Osborne, Sandra Wilson, Phil Cooper, rh Yvette Irranca-Davies, Huw Owen, Albert Wilson, Sammy Crausby, Mr. David Jackson, Glenda Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Winnick, Mr. David Cruddas, Jon James, Mrs. Siân C. Palmer, Dr. Nick Woolas, Mr. Phil Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian Pearson, Ian Wright, David Cummings, John Johnson, rh Alan Plaskitt, Mr. James Wright, Mr. Iain Pope, Mr. Greg Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. Wright, Dr. Tony Prentice, Bridget Cunningham, Tony Jones, Helen Wyatt, Derek Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Lynne Prentice, Mr. Gordon Primarolo, rh Dawn Dean, Mrs. Janet Jones, Mr. Martyn Tellers for the Noes: Prosser, Gwyn Mr. John Heppell and Denham, rh Mr. John Joyce, Mr. Eric Purchase, Mr. Ken Mr. Dave Watts Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Keeble, Ms Sally Dismore, Mr. Andrew Keeley, Barbara Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keen, Alan Question accordingly negatived. 1033 Business without Debate1 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 1034

Main Question put forthwith (Order, 23 November). Huhne, Chris Mulholland, Greg Humble, Mrs. Joan Mullin, Mr. Chris The House divided: Ayes 298, Noes 127. Hutton, rh Mr. John Munn, Meg Division No. 8] [7.16 pm Iddon, Dr. Brian Murphy, Mr. Denis Illsley, Mr. Eric Murphy, rh Mr. Jim AYES Irranca-Davies, Huw Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Jackson, Glenda Naysmith, Dr. Doug Alexander, Danny Davies, Mr. Dai James, Mrs. Siân C. Norris, Dan Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Dean, Mrs. Janet Jenkins, Mr. Brian Osborne, Sandra Allen, Mr. Graham Denham, rh Mr. John Johnson, Ms Diana R. Owen, Albert Anderson, Janet Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Jones, Helen Palmer, Dr. Nick Atkins, Charlotte Dismore, Mr. Andrew Jones, Lynne Pearson, Ian Bailey, Mr. Adrian Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Jones, Mr. Martyn Plaskitt, Mr. James Bain, Mr. William Doran, Mr. Frank Joyce, Mr. Eric Pope, Mr. Greg Baird, Vera Drew, Mr. David Keeble, Ms Sally Prentice, Bridget Banks, Gordon Eagle, Angela Keeley, Barbara Prentice, Mr. Gordon Barlow, Ms Celia Eagle, Maria Keen, Alan Primarolo, rh Dawn Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Efford, Clive Keen, Ann Prosser, Gwyn Battle, rh John Ellman, Mrs. Louise Keetch, Mr. Paul Purchase, Mr. Ken Bayley, Hugh Engel, Natascha Kelly, rh Ruth Rammell, Bill Beckett, rh Margaret Farrelly, Paul Kemp, Mr. Fraser Reed, Mr. Andy Begg, Miss Anne Farron, Tim Kidney, Mr. David Reed, Mr. Jamie Beith, rh Sir Alan Featherstone, Lynne Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Reid, Mr. Alan Bell, Sir Stuart Field, rh Mr. Frank Knight, rh Jim Rennie, Willie Benton, Mr. Joe Fisher, Mark Kumar, Dr. Ashok Riordan, Mrs. Linda Berry, Roger Fitzpatrick, Jim Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Robertson, John Betts, Mr. Clive Flello, Mr. Robert Lamb, Norman Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Blackman, Liz Follett, Barbara Lammy, rh Mr. David Rogerson, Dan Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Foster, Mr. Don Laws, Mr. David Rooney, Mr. Terry Blizzard, Mr. Bob Foster, Mr. Michael Laxton, Mr. Bob Rowen, Paul Blunkett, rh Mr. David (Worcester) Lazarowicz, Mark Roy, Mr. Frank Borrow, Mr. David S. Foster, Michael Jabez Leech, Mr. John Roy, Lindsay Brennan, Kevin (Hastings and Rye) Lepper, David Ruane, Chris Brooke, Annette Francis, Dr. Hywel Levitt, Tom Ruddock, Joan Brown, Lyn Gapes, Mike Lewis, Mr. Ivan Russell, Bob Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Gardiner, Barry Linton, Martin Russell, Christine Brown, Mr. Russell George, Andrew Lloyd, Tony Ryan, rh Joan Browne, rh Des George, rh Mr. Bruce Lucas, Ian Salter, Martin Bryant, Chris Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mackinlay, Andrew Sanders, Mr. Adrian Buck, Ms Karen Gidley, Sandra Mactaggart, Fiona Seabeck, Alison Burden, Richard Gilroy, Linda Malik, Mr. Shahid Sharma, Mr. Virendra Burnham, rh Andy Godsiff, Mr. Roger Mallaber, Judy Sheridan, Jim Burt, Lorely Goldsworthy, Julia Mann, John Simon, Mr. Siôn Butler, Ms Dawn Goodman, Helen Marris, Rob Simpson, Alan Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Griffith, Nia Marsden, Mr. Gordon Skinner, Mr. Dennis Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Gwynne, Andrew Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Slaughter, Mr. Andy Campbell, Mr. Alan Hain, rh Mr. Peter Martlew, Mr. Eric Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hall, Mr. Mike McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Smith, Ms Angela C. Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Hall, Patrick McCabe, Steve (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Caton, Mr. Martin Hamilton, Mr. David McCarthy, Kerry Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hamilton, Mr. Fabian McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Smith, Geraldine Challen, Colin Hanson, rh Mr. David McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Smith, Sir Robert Chapman, Ben Harman, rh Ms Harriet McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Snelgrove, Anne Chaytor, Mr. David Harris, Mr. Tom McGrady, Mr. Eddie Soulsby, Sir Peter Clapham, Mr. Michael Harvey, Nick McIsaac, Shona Southworth, Helen Clark, Ms Katy Havard, Mr. Dai McKechin, Ann Spellar, rh Mr. John Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Healey, rh John McKenna, Rosemary Stewart, Ian Clarke,rhMr.Tom Heath, Mr. David McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Stoate, Dr. Howard Clelland, Mr. David Hemming, John Michael, rh Alun Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Clwyd, rh Ann Hendrick, Mr. Mark Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Stunell, Andrew Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Miliband, rh David Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Coffey, Ann Hesford, Stephen Miller, Andrew Swinson, Jo Cohen, Harry Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Mitchell, Mr. Austin Tami, Mark Cooper, Rosie Heyes, David Cooper, rh Yvette Hill, rh Keith Moffatt, Laura Taylor, Ms Dari Corbyn, Jeremy Hodge, rh Margaret Mole, Chris Taylor, David Crausby, Mr. David Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Taylor, Matthew Cruddas, Jon Hope, Phil Moore, Mr. Michael Taylor, Dr. Richard Cryer, Mrs. Ann Horwood, Martin Morden, Jessica Thornberry, Emily Cummings, John Howarth, David Morgan, Julie Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Cunningham, Mr. Jim Howarth, rh Mr. George Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Tipping, Paddy Cunningham, Tony Howells, rh Dr. Kim Mountford, Kali Todd, Mr. Mark Davidson, Mr. Ian Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Mudie, Mr. George Touhig, rh Mr. Don 1035 Business without Debate1 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 1036

Trickett, Jon Willis, Mr. Phil Spink, Bob Whittingdale, Mr. John Turner, Dr. Desmond Willott, Jenny Streeter, Mr. Gary Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann Turner, Mr. Neil Wills, rh Mr. Michael Swayne, Mr. Desmond Wiggin, Bill Vaz, rh Keith Wilson, Phil Tapsell, Sir Peter Wilson, Mr. Rob Walley, Joan Winnick, Mr. David Timpson, Mr. Edward Wilson, Sammy Waltho, Lynda Woolas, Mr. Phil Turner, Mr. Andrew Winterton, Ann Watson, Mr. Tom Wright, Mr. Anthony Vaizey, Mr. Edward Yeo, Mr. Tim Webb, Steve Wright, David Vara, Mr. Shailesh Whitehead, Dr. Alan Wright, Mr. Iain Walker, Mr. Charles Tellers for the Noes: Wicks, rh Malcolm Wright, Dr. Tony Waterson, Mr. Nigel Jeremy Wright and Williams, rh Mr. Alan Wyatt, Derek Watkinson, Angela James Duddridge Williams, Mark Tellers for the Ayes: Williams, Mr. Roger Mr. John Heppell and Question accordingly agreed to. Williams, Stephen Mr. Dave Watts DELEGATED LEGISLATION NOES Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Afriyie, Adam Hendry, Charles Ainsworth, Mr. Peter Hoban, Mr. Mark Order No. 118(6)), Amess, Mr. David Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Ancram, rh Mr. Michael Hollobone, Mr. Philip EUROPEAN COMMUNITIES Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Horam, Mr. John That the draft European Communities (Definition of Treaties) Atkinson, Mr. Peter Howell, John (Stabilisation and Association Agreement) (Republic of Montenegro) Bacon, Mr. Richard Hunt, Mr. Jeremy Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 21 October, in Baldry, Tony Hurd, Mr. Nick the previous Session of Parliament, be approved. —(Mr. Blizzard.) Barker, Gregory Jack, rh Mr. Michael Question agreed to. Baron, Mr. John Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Bellingham, Mr. Henry Jones, Mr. David Benyon, Mr. Richard Kawczynski, Daniel Order No. 118(6)), Beresford, Sir Paul Kirkbride, Miss Julie Blunt, Mr. Crispin Knight, rh Mr. Greg LEGAL SERVICES COMMISSION Bone, Mr. Peter Laing, Mrs. Eleanor That the draft Criminal Defence Service (Representation Orders) Brokenshire, James Lait, Mrs. Jacqui (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this Browning, Angela Lancaster, Mr. Mark House on 28 October, in the previous Session of Parliament, be Burns, Mr. Simon Lansley, Mr. Andrew approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Burt, Alistair Leigh, Mr. Edward The House divided: Ayes 252, Noes 41. Campbell, Mr. Gregory Lewis, Dr. Julian Carswell, Mr. Douglas Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Division No. 9] [7.28 pm Clark, Greg Loughton, Tim Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth Luff, Peter AYES Cormack, Sir Patrick Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Byers, rh Mr. Stephen Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Maclean, rh David Allen, Mr. Graham Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Curry, rh Mr. David Maples, Mr. John Anderson, Mr. David Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Davies, Philip Mates, rh Mr. Michael Atkins, Charlotte Campbell, Mr. Alan Davis, rh David Maude, rh Mr. Francis Bailey, Mr. Adrian Campbell, Mr. Gregory Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan McCrea, Dr. William Bain, Mr. William Caton, Mr. Martin Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Baird, Vera Cawsey, Mr. Ian Duncan, Alan Milton, Anne Banks, Gordon Challen, Colin Dunne, Mr. Philip Moss, Mr. Malcolm Barlow, Ms Celia Chapman, Ben Evennett, Mr. David Mundell, David Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Chaytor, Mr. David Fabricant, Michael Murrison, Dr. Andrew Battle, rh John Clapham, Mr. Michael Fallon, Mr. Michael Neill, Robert Bayley, Hugh Clark, Ms Katy Field, Mr. Mark Newmark, Mr. Brooks Begg, Miss Anne Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Francois, Mr. Mark Osborne, Mr. George Bell, Sir Stuart Clarke, rh Mr. Tom Fraser, Christopher Ottaway, Richard Benton, Mr. Joe Clelland, Mr. David Gale, Mr. Roger Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Berry, Roger Clwyd, rh Ann Garnier, Mr. Edward Paterson, Mr. Owen Betts, Mr. Clive Coaker, Mr. Vernon Gauke, Mr. David Pelling, Mr. Andrew Blackman, Liz Coffey, Ann Gibb, Mr. Nick Penning, Mike Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta Cohen, Harry Goodwill, Mr. Robert Prisk, Mr. Mark Blizzard, Mr. Bob Cooper, Rosie Gove, Michael Pritchard, Mark Blunkett, rh Mr. David Cooper, rh Yvette Gray, Mr. James Randall, Mr. John Borrow, Mr. David S. Crausby, Mr. David Green, Damian Robathan, Mr. Andrew Brennan, Kevin Cruddas, Jon Greening, Justine Robertson, Hugh Brown, Lyn Cryer, Mrs. Ann Grieve, Mr. Dominic Scott, Mr. Lee Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Cummings, John Gummer, rh Mr. John Selous, Andrew Brown, Mr. Russell Cunningham, Mr. Jim Hammond, Mr. Philip Shapps, Grant Browne, rh Des Cunningham, Tony Hammond, Stephen Shepherd, Mr. Richard Bryant, Chris Davidson, Mr. Ian Harper, Mr. Mark Simmonds, Mark Buck, Ms Karen Davies, Mr. Dai Hayes, Mr. John Simpson, Mr. Keith Burden, Richard Dean, Mrs. Janet Heathcoat-Amory, rh Smith, Chloe Burnham, rh Andy Denham, rh Mr. John Mr. David Spicer, Sir Michael Butler, Ms Dawn Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit 1037 Business without Debate1 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 1038

Dismore, Mr. Andrew Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Seabeck, Alison Tipping, Paddy Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Lammy, rh Mr. David Sharma, Mr. Virendra Todd, Mr. Mark Doran, Mr. Frank Laxton, Mr. Bob Sheridan, Jim Touhig, rh Mr. Don Drew, Mr. David Lepper, David Simon, Mr. Siôn Trickett, Jon Eagle, Angela Levitt, Tom Simpson, Alan Turner, Dr. Desmond Eagle, Maria Lewis, Mr. Ivan Skinner, Mr. Dennis Turner, Mr. Neil Efford, Clive Linton, Martin Slaughter, Mr. Andy Walley, Joan Ellman, Mrs. Louise Lloyd, Tony Smith, rh Mr. Andrew Waltho, Lynda Engel, Natascha Lucas, Ian Smith, Ms Angela C. Watson, Mr. Tom Farrelly, Paul Mackinlay, Andrew (Sheffield, Hillsborough) Whitehead, Dr. Alan Field, rh Mr. Frank Mactaggart, Fiona Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) Wicks, rh Malcolm Fisher, Mark Malik, Mr. Shahid Smith, Geraldine Williams, rh Mr. Alan Fitzpatrick, Jim Mallaber, Judy Snelgrove, Anne Wills, rh Mr. Michael Flello, Mr. Robert Mann, John Soulsby, Sir Peter Wilson, Phil Flint, rh Caroline Marris, Rob Southworth, Helen Wilson, Sammy Follett, Barbara Marsden, Mr. Gordon Spellar, rh Mr. John Winnick, Mr. David Foster, Mr. Michael Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Stewart, Ian Woolas, Mr. Phil (Worcester) Martlew, Mr. Eric Stoate, Dr. Howard Wright, Mr. Anthony Foster, Michael Jabez McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Wright, David (Hastings and Rye) McCabe, Steve Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Wright, Mr. Iain Francis, Dr. Hywel McCarthy, Kerry Tami, Mark Wright, Dr. Tony Gapes, Mike McCarthy-Fry, Sarah Taylor, Ms Dari Wyatt, Derek Gardiner, Barry McCartney, rh Mr. Ian Taylor, David Tellers for the Ayes: George, rh Mr. Bruce McCrea, Dr. William Thornberry, Emily Mr. Dave Watts and Gerrard, Mr. Neil McDonagh, Siobhain Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Mr. John Heppell Gilroy, Linda McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Godsiff, Mr. Roger McGrady, Mr. Eddie Goodman, Helen McIsaac, Shona NOES Griffith, Nia McKechin, Ann Alexander, Danny Moore, Mr. Michael Hain, rh Mr. Peter McKenna, Rosemary Beith, rh Sir Alan Mulholland, Greg Hall, Mr. Mike McNulty, rh Mr. Tony Brooke, Annette Pelling, Mr. Andrew Hall, Patrick Michael, rh Alun Burt, Lorely Reid, Mr. Alan Hamilton, Mr. David Milburn, rh Mr. Alan Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Rennie, Willie Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Miller, Andrew Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Rowen, Paul Hanson, rh Mr. David Mitchell, Mr. Austin Farron, Tim Russell, Bob Harris, Mr. Tom Moffatt, Laura Featherstone, Lynne Sanders, Mr. Adrian Havard, Mr. Dai Mole, Chris Foster, Mr. Don Smith, Sir Robert Healey, rh John Moon, Mrs. Madeleine George, Andrew Spink, Bob Hendrick, Mr. Mark Morden, Jessica Gidley, Sandra Stunell, Andrew Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Morgan, Julie Goldsworthy, Julia Swinson, Jo Hesford, Stephen Morley, rh Mr. Elliot Harvey, Nick Taylor, Matthew Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Mountford, Kali Heath, Mr. David Webb, Steve Heyes, David Mudie, Mr. George Hemming, John Williams, Hywel Hill, rh Keith Mullin, Mr. Chris Horwood, Martin Williams, Mark Hodge, rh Margaret Murphy, Mr. Denis Howarth, David Williams, Mr. Roger Hope, Phil Murphy, rh Mr. Jim Huhne, Chris Williams, Stephen Howarth, rh Mr. George Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Keetch, Mr. Paul Willis, Mr. Phil Howells, rh Dr. Kim Naysmith, Dr. Doug Lamb, Norman Tellers for the Noes: Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Norris, Dan Laws, Mr. David Dan Rogerson and Humble, Mrs. Joan Osborne, Sandra Leech, Mr. John Jenny Willott Hutton, rh Mr. John Owen, Albert Iddon, Dr. Brian Paisley, rh Rev. Ian Illsley, Mr. Eric Palmer, Dr. Nick Question accordingly agreed to. Irranca-Davies, Huw Plaskitt, Mr. James Jackson, Glenda Pope, Mr. Greg James, Mrs. Siân C. Prentice, Bridget DELEGATED LEGISLATION Jenkins, Mr. Brian Prentice, Mr. Gordon Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Johnson, Ms Diana R. Primarolo, rh Dawn Order No. 118(6)), Jones, Helen Prosser, Gwyn Jones, Lynne Purchase, Mr. Ken Jones, Mr. Martyn Rammell, Bill LEGAL SERVICES COMMISSION Joyce, Mr. Eric Reed, Mr. Andy That the draft Criminal Defence Service (Contribution Orders) Keeble, Ms Sally Reed, Mr. Jamie Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 28 October, Keeley, Barbara Riordan, Mrs. Linda in the previous Session of Parliament, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Keen, Alan Robertson, John Question agreed to. Keen, Ann Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Kelly, rh Ruth Roy, Mr. Frank Order No. 118(6)), Kemp, Mr. Fraser Roy, Lindsay That the draft Criminal Defence Service (Representation Orders: Kidney, Mr. David Ruane, Chris Appeals etc.) (Amendment) Regulations 2009, which were laid Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Ruddock, Joan before this House on 28 October, in the previous Session of Knight, rh Jim Russell, Christine Parliament, be approved.—(Mr. Blizzard.) Kumar, Dr. Ashok Salter, Martin Question agreed to. 1039 Business without Debate 1 DECEMBER 2009 1040

EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS Fisheries Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 119(11)), 7.40 pm

INTERNATIONAL CLIMATE FINANCE The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies) That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 13183/09 and Addendum 1, Commission Communication on rose—[Interruption.] Stepping up International Climate Finance, a European Blueprint for the Copenhagen Deal; and believes that the Commission’s Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): Order. Will views therein provided a basis for the discussion between the hon. Members who are not staying for this debate Government and other Member States which resulted in European please leave the Chamber quickly and quietly? Union Document No. 15285/09, Presidency Conclusions of the Brussels European Council (30 October 2009), in advance of the Huw Irranca-Davies: I beg to move, 15th Conference of the Parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change in Copenhagen in December That this House has considered the matter of fisheries. 2009.—(Mr. Blizzard.) I am pleased to begin this debate. It seems amazing Question agreed to. that a year has flown by since the last annual fisheries debate, although we have had many occasions in the intervening period to debate marine and fisheries matters. Although the year has flown by, in the past 40 minutes or so I wondered whether we would get to this debate, but I am pleased that we are here now. This is the second fisheries debate in which I have spoken. It gives me the opportunity to report progress in the past year, which has been quite a significant year. Common fisheries policy reform is well under way, with the Government leading from the front, and we have worked on IUU—illegal, unreported and unregulated— fisheries and international governance. We also got the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 on to the statute book last month. We are the first country in the world to have a single piece of legislation to protect and manage our seas. This debate is also timely, as it always is, in that it allows me to hear the views of the House before the December European Fisheries Council and to look forward to next year. However, at the outset I would like to pay tribute—as we always do, and quite rightly—to our fishermen, who face dangers at sea every day, every month and every year to catch the fish that so many of us enjoy eating. I am very sad to report to the House that over the past year 12 fishermen have lost their lives. I know that the House will wish to join me in expressing our sincere condolences to the families and friends who suffered those tragic losses. Let me begin with the meat of the debate by giving the usual update on the fishing sector’s contribution to the economy. As hon. Members will know, the industry has faced catch restrictions to protect fish stocks. Since 2007, UK landings of fish have declined by 4 per cent., with falling catches of mackerel and herring. However, landings of shellfish have increased by 3 per cent. The total value of landings of fish from UK vessels in 2008 was £629 million, a decrease of 2 per cent. from 2007. Although the value of demersal fish was largely the same, prices for shellfish landings showed slight decreases, particularly, as hon. Members in the areas concerned will know, those for nephrops, a key shellfish species for the UK fleet. Exports of fish and fish products had a value of just over £1 billion in 2008, an increase of 3 per cent. since 2007. The industry—a huge employer in this country, along with its associated ancillary industries—provided employment for 12,761 fishermen in 2008. As we all know, the industry also contributes to the local economies and the culture of coastal communities, which is especially important in these times of economic difficulty. It would 1041 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1042 be remiss of me not to mention also the contribution of Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): sea angling, which is popular in our island nation and Will the Minister assure the House that Scottish mackerel makes a significant contribution to the UK economy. will in no way be used as a bargaining chip with Norway Over the past year we have been working on many for any other fish species? fronts towards a single goal of achieving sustainable Huw Irranca-Davies: As I said in my previous answer, fisheries. That has been very much in the news, as hon. that is exactly our position. However, the EU-Norway Members will know, with the film “The End of the talks this year and the December negotiations in the Line” arousing great interest among the press and public EU Council are more difficult than ever. All I would ask alike and causing much debate. Sustainable fisheries are from the hon. Gentleman is an element of faith— hugely important for our food security. Across Europe, two thirds of the fish that we eat and up to 90 per cent. Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): of white fish are caught outside EU waters. Over- And common sense. exploitation, illegal fishing and conflicting demands on the marine environment all impact on fisheries’contribution Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed, and some good sense. to our food security. That is why we need to look at We are playing the hand of cards that we have been what we do not only in the domestic arena and the EU, dealt. We have the red lines that I have indicated and we but internationally. have written to the Commission. That is the basis of our negotiations, but it is also the basis of the parallel discussions that Marine Scotland and so on are having, Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): One of the international so we are arguing exactly the same point as the hon. issues relates to concerns raised by the Scottish Fishermen’s Gentleman’s Scottish National party colleagues in the Federation about this year’s annual negotiations prior Scottish Executive. I have to say that things are extremely to the European Fisheries Council, and in particular difficult. However, the undertaking that I would make about the catch that the Icelandic fleet wishes to secure to him is the same as the undertaking that we have made and the attitude of the Norwegians, which it says is to the fleet, which is that we will keep a frank dialogue causing delay in those negotiations. Can the Minister going as the process goes forward. I do not know what tell us anything about that? the outcome will be, but that is our position.

Huw Irranca-Davies: Indeed I can. It is a live issue, as Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I thank the Minister I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware. In fact, I met for being characteristically generous with his time. Can fishermen this morning and discussed that very issue, he tell us what progress he has made with the EU in among others. Officials and I were in touch with fisheries discussing the dumping of fish? Dumping is an obscenity leaders throughout the weekend, and we continue to be that affects all sectors of British waters and is something so. It is unfortunate that this year’s discussions between that we need to stop. the EU and Norway and other non-EU states is more Huw Irranca-Davies: I will return to that point in a difficult than normal, for reasons that I suspect the hon. moment as part of my substantive remarks. However, Gentleman is aware of, albeit for the right reasons as one thing that we are agreed on across the UK and all well. Where we need to take enforcement action on the devolved Administrations is that we do not have to fishing vessels within and outside the EU, it is right that wait for common fisheries policy reform to make we should do so, but that aspect has perhaps coloured movements on discards. There are things that we can do this year’s discussions. right now. Last October—I think it was October, although We are actively engaged in those discussions. We time does fly—we signed the Aalborg agreement with want to see a positive outcome, but we remain in live colleagues in Germany and Denmark. Under that discussion with industry leaders and skippers as they go agreement we agreed to pilot the use of CCTV cameras forward. I pay tribute not only to those stakeholders on boats to monitor what is landed in the nets and to try and the industry, which are engaged in that process as to uphold the principle of landing more fish and killing we speak, but to officials from the Department for less, thereby avoiding discards. I would also say that Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, Marine Scotland, part of our strength and our credibility with the EU is Northern Ireland and Wales, who are also out there what we have done in the last few years on real-time fighting the good fight. However, it is difficult this year. avoidance of spawning grounds, on the conservation credit scheme in Scotland, on avoiding juvenile stocks and so forth. There is a lot we can do now, but Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): fundamentally—I shall return to this in a few moments— On the subject of the EU-Norway talks, I suspect that this is an issue requiring extremely radical CFP reform. one of the sticking points will be the allocation of mackerel quotas. For Scottish fishermen, and Shetland Several hon. Members rose— fishermen in particular, that is an absolute red line. Whatever difficulties the Minister encounters, will he Huw Irranca-Davies: If Members will allow me, I will please understand that, for the health of that important make a little progress, as there are many participants, as pelagic sector, compromise could be unhelpful to say always in fisheries debates, and I am sure that many the least? want to speak. I was talking about international fisheries and food Huw Irranca-Davies: I understand fully the point that security. The Food and Agriculture Organisation estimates the hon. Gentleman quite rightly makes. I am pleased that half the world’s fish stocks are already fully exploited to inform him not only that we are in ongoing discussions and at risk of disappearing altogether. A report by the trying to hold that line, but we have written in a similar World Bank, to which I often pay regard, has estimated tone to the commissioner. that at least $50 billion dollars of wealth are lost because 1043 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1044

[Huw Irranca-Davies] Huw Irranca-Davies: I compliment the hon. Gentleman on his contributions to our previous debate on the of poor governance of the world’s fisheries. There is a common fisheries policy. Several significant states appear note of optimism as well, which is the flipside of that to be like-minded and as keen as we are to have radical report, in that if we can improve the governance and reform. I have to say that several have different ideas on management of fisheries, we can actually harvest more the way forward, but I believe there is a sufficient body and also protect the marine environment. of member nations that are of a similar disposition to To increase our food security, we are working to ours on the core components of CFP reform. I am improve fisheries governance globally, building awareness hopeful. I know I said it in our other recent debate, but of the benefits of well managed fisheries. Over the next it is not a question of waiting until 2011 and then three days I am visiting Ghana, partly to deal with mulling over what the Commission has brought forward forestry, partly to increase the Government’s lobbying following co-decision and so forth, as it is the next for Copenhagen, but partly on account of the governance couple of months that are going to be crucial. We have of fisheries. Enabling consumers to recognise that their the wind in our sails on this. fish comes from well managed stocks is part of ensuring food security. Supermarkets are increasingly sourcing Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): The Minister their fish from sustainable stocks, and initiatives such as mentioned co-decision, but it rather seemed as if the the Marine Stewardship Council’s “blue tick” labelling Commission was doing its best to bypass co-decision scheme are a step in the right direction to help consumers and move before it could become a reality, when the to make sustainable choices. We also have to make sure direction we need to move in is one in which fishermen’s that our own fisheries are sustainable. organisations play as full and constructive a part in regional management as they want to, because they are I was pleased that the House found time to debate the the best people to do it. reform of the common fisheries policy on 27 October. I have made it clear that I want the UK to lead the reform of the CFP and I will just quickly recap where Huw Irranca-Davies: The right hon. Gentleman raises we are, as this is crucial. At the European Council of another aspect of co-decision that I have touched Fisheries Ministers in May, I set out the UK vision for on—trying to find a way, and we think there are ways, future sustainable fisheries, which places ecologically of devolving real responsibility where the buck stops. sustainable fisheries at the heart of reform. The buck does not stop only in terms of fisheries management, because it stops with fisheries and marine In September, we published a discussion paper on management, involving those people who I have consistently CFP reform setting out four key priorities. These are argued will be the best for long-term management of fish populations within safe biological limits; a prosperous that marine environment, namely fishermen themselves. and efficient fishing industry; recognition of the valuable I think that there is a real appetite for this. contribution that fishing makes to local communities; and fisheries management integrated with management We recently had a two-day session at the Inter-RAC and conservation of marine resources. For too long, conference, when the regional advisory councils were fisheries issues have been dealt with in a silo, which is to brought together in Edinburgh a month ago, and there their detriment, as we have seen over recent decades, was almost unanimity on this issue. That meeting, and and to that of the marine environment as well. These others, have been attended by officials from the Commission issues need to be mainstream and part and parcel of as well, who have spoken about the legal difficulties but cross-government thinking within the UK and of cross- with some optimism that it could be done. It is now departmental thinking within the EU. down to us, with the support of the industry and people with ideas and models, to advance those ideas rapidly. With the help of the Marine and Fisheries Agency, That is what we are set on doing. we have held meetings around the coast—I say that, but they were also in Edinburgh—to hear local views on One issue I am concerned about, as I said last year, is CFP reform. Last week, I discussed with colleagues in that of small coastal communities around the UK. the devolved Administrations and a wide range of I understand the value of fishing to these small, often stakeholders the feedback on the discussion paper and remote, coastal communities: it is more than simply the challenges to be addressed. This is helping us to fisheries and the economy; it is their way of life, their ensure that when the UK responds to the European livelihood and also a huge issue for their cultural heritage. Commission’s Green Paper on reform of the CFP later It is also part of the UK’s heritage as an entity. We need this month, we are recommending radical but realistic to find ways of supporting vulnerable communities that reform. This will include people in the fishing industry depend on fishing. themselves taking more responsibility for implementing One of my priorities this last year, in difficult times, the CFP; more long-term management to reduce has been putting the inshore fleet on to a more sustainable uncertainty for fishermen—too often, we hear fishermen footing, which has not been without difficulty. We have saying that they cannot plan a month, let alone a year decommissioned 65 vessels. On the back of that or five years ahead when they go to their bank manager; decommissioning, which was linked to licence capping—not ensuring decisions are based on sound science; and without controversy—we have directly released quota reducing, or wherever possible eliminating, wasteful back into the under-10 metre pool. We introduced the discards. licence capping scheme to keep fishing for quota stocks at current levels. Mr. Robert Goodwill (Scarborough and Whitby) (Con): We have also set up the SAIF—sustainable access to What indications does the Minister have from other inshore fisheries—project through close working between member states, particularly Spain, that they will support DEFRA and stakeholders in fisheries management, the his laudable and sensible aims? fishing industry and fishing communities. This is not 1045 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1046 driven purely by fishermen themselves; our argument submitted for consultation they were subjected to a with SAIF was always on the basis that the issue of period of pre-consultation discussion with fisheries leaders fisheries needs to be integrated into regional development, to ensure that there were no unnecessary distractions or better marketing and extending the line of production scare stories. Projects such as this may occasionally so that it is not simply a matter of extracting the raw displace certain activities, and we need to work with the materials but receiving the end-benefit as well. All that fisheries industry to ensure that that is recognised. is relevant to the SAIF project. There is an advisory Natural England is very aware of that, as is the Joint group, which has done some excellent work, bringing Nature Conservation Committee. together expertise from the fishing industry and beyond to help to drive this work forward. Mr. Michael Moore (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and We are also using the European Fisheries Fund to Selkirk) (LD): Let me add to the tribute that is always help our fishing industry to secure a sustainable and paid on occasions such as this to those in the RNLI profitable future. In 2009, we have offered grants totalling who put their lives at risk on behalf of our fishing £43 million across the UK for projects ranging from communities and so many others, year in, year out. major harbour improvements in North Shields and Like, I am sure, many other Members, I joined a local extra safety gear above the legal requirements for individual lifeboat crew on a training mission, and it was a real boats to Marine Stewardship Council accreditation. eye-opener: it made me aware of the dangers that those crews must confront. One pan-UK project that I know Members will be interested to hear about is the Royal National Lifeboat The Minister has spoken of the sustainability of Institution man overboard safety system, which enables smaller fishing communities. I represent many such the RNLI to track vessels and alert their monitoring communities in Berwickshire. Does the Minister accept system if there are difficulties. That could be crucial and that, as well as wishing to unite the fishing and marine I remind hon. Members that I opened the debate with environments, we must not lose sight of the need for the issue of lives lost at sea. This sort of innovation is financial sustainability for those communities? I know something that could really help in the future. The that— system also includes personal safety devices that alert the skipper if a crew member goes overboard. The Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The system has already saved lives at sea and we hope that hon. Gentleman has been making an exceptionally long on the back of that investment, as many as 1,500 units intervention, and I am sure the Minister is now able to will be in use by the end of 2011. answer it. I warn Members that Back-Bench speeches will have Mr. Carmichael: We are discussing a matter that to be limited to eight minutes, because time is running probably affects every fishing community. I declare an out and a great many Members wish to speak. Although interest as a member of the RNLI national council. interventions add to the debate, Members who wish to Does the Minister agree that, regardless of the number catch my eye later are now intervening, and there is of initiatives, the real challenge is to convey the message something not quite right about that. to the industry? No matter how many devices there are in the market, if they are not used by the industry they Huw Irranca-Davies: In view of what you have said, will be of no use to anyone. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I shall try to cut my remaining remarks short. However, I want to deal with the point Huw Irranca-Davies: The hon. Gentleman is right. made by the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh I think that the work being done on the ground and—let and Selkirk (Mr. Moore) about the sustainability of me give credit where it is due—through august publications communities and the fleets that are part of those such as Fishing News, which seems to run stories about communities, because it is relevant to a vital part of the these devices every other week, is very necessary. Members debate. of Parliament can also play their part by hammering As we implement common fisheries policy reform, we the message home when they are out speaking on the need to engage in a frank discussion throughout the portside. It is gaining attention, but there is much more devolved areas about how we can deliver a prosperous to be done if we are to make a real difference. future—let us scrap the word “sustainable” for the moment—for widely variegated coastal communities Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): The Minister mentioned that have different types of vessels and experience different the SAIF project and, in particular, the impact of aspects or isolation and remoteness. I think that part of certain regulations on the vulnerability of the inshore the solution is not protectionism per se, but the willingness fleet and coastal communities. Can he reassure us that of Ministers to stand up and say how vessels and special areas of conservation will be imposed by Natural fisheries can be made more profitable, how they can England in a constructive manner, and that Natural produce better harvests, and how fishermen can own England and the industry will ensure that not just the production from the point at which the fish are landed marine environment but the viability of fishing communities to the point of marketing. is protected? I have used this analogy before, and I am sorry that it comes from my own back yard, but we should bear in Huw Irranca-Davies: Special areas of conservation mind what has been achieved in the marketing of Welsh and special protection areas are designated through the lamb. Ten years ago, Welsh lamb producers were producing European marine habitats directive. Socio-economics only cheap carcases from the top of the Welsh hills. are not a factor, and in that regard this debate differs Now they represent one of our biggest success stories. from our debate on marine conservation zones. I am They have taken command of the line of supply all the pleased to say, however, that before the proposals were way to the supermarket in a co-operative manner, and 1047 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1048

[Huw Irranca-Davies] putting it on the statute book. It establishes a new system of marine planning. Along with the devolved have added value. Some of the fisheries in the constituencies Administrations, we have published high-level marine of the hon. Gentleman and others are high-quality objectives to which we have all agreed, and which will mixed fisheries which should not be selling at bog-standard feed into the marine policy statement that we are developing prices—not that there is such a thing—to whoever to guide the marine planning process under the Act. For comes in. There should be a much cleverer way of the first time, we will be planning all the activities in the owning the profits resulting from that supply chain. our seas in a properly integrated way. As you have said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, many other The Act introduces better licensing for marine Members wish to speak. Let me do what I said I would developments, and the conservation of marine biodiversity do, and deal with some of the other aspects rapidly. through marine conservation zones. Natural England I mentioned illegal fishing earlier. I am pleased to say and the Joint Nature Conservation Committee have set that we have taken a leading role on that, and are up four regional projects, which are doing extremely making good progress. A European Union regulation well. The conservation zones will help us to deliver our that will come into force next month introduces new commitments under the European Commission’s marine rules on imports and exports of fish and fish products strategy framework directive, which requires us to achieve to and from the EU, making it more difficult for illegally “good environmental status” for our seas by 2020. caught fish to enter the EU from non-EU countries. We have been working closely not just with importers and The Act also creates the Marine Management exporters but with nations that will be affected, including Organisation, which will be the Government’s delivery developing countries. We are trying to work with those body in English waters and UK offshore waters. I have countries to encourage them to engage in better governance appointed the chairman-designate, and staff from the and to tackle illegal and unregulated fisheries so that Marine and Fisheries Agency, which is being subsumed they can take advantage of entry to the European into the Marine Management Organisation, are already market. moving to Newcastle-upon-Tyne in preparation for the The UK is also leading the way in protecting vesting of the organisation in April. In order to put this commercially fished species. Action is needed urgently to rest, I want to put it clearly on the record that, if bluefin tuna is to be commercially sustainable. We contrary to speculation in the regional press, we have have publicly supported Monaco’s proposal to give this measures in place to ensure that levels of service are species the highest protection possible under the convention maintained during the transition. The MFA is currently on international trade in endangered species. As a result recruiting new members of staff for its headquarters, to of the international pressure, and with the strong support replace those who are not relocating. The first two of the United Kingdom, the International Commission groups of new recruits have already completed training for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas demonstrated at in London and are now working in Newcastle. More its annual meeting its willingness to take tougher measures new staff will begin work over the coming months, to protect bluefin tuna. However, we shall keep a close complementing the experienced staff in the 18 offices— watch on whether the measures are implemented quickly which we often forget about—all around the UK coast. enough to conserve this iconic species. So it will be business as usual. We have been working hard to protect sharks, skates At the local level, inshore fisheries and conservation and rays, which are in serious decline. We ensured that authorities will ensure that we have an integrated approach the Council’s conclusions on the European Commission’s to our marine resources. They will replace sea fisheries shark plan of action, agreed in April, were strong, clear committees, and they will modernise inshore fisheries and robust. We are proceeding with work under this management in England. They must seek to balance the plan of action ourselves, funding scientific research that social and economic benefits of exploiting the sea fisheries will help us to protect and manage those threatened resources of their districts with the need to protect the stocks. The UK has made a bold decision to increase marine environment from, or promote its recovery from, the protection offered to sharks by banning the removal the effects of such exploitation. They will draw on local of shark fins at sea by UK-registered fishing vessels. knowledge to solve local problems through local decision Any sharks caught by UK vessels will now have to be making. Following consultation, I have decided that landed with their fins attached to their bodies, so there there will be 10 inshore fisheries and conservation districts. is now no risk of wasteful shark finning. Last month, we brought together members and staff of The UK is also dealing with the incidental catch of the sea fisheries committees to discuss how the new seabirds in fisheries operations. Every year many seabirds authorities can best respond to their new duties, using die unnecessarily, and that is seriously affecting some the achievements of the sea fisheries committees as seabird populations. Internationally, we are working their springboard. through the Agreement on the Conservation of Albatrosses Having sprinted through my speech in order to leave and Petrels, and we are putting pressure on regional time for other contributions, I hope Members will agree fisheries management organisations to reduce by-catch. that over the last year we have made significant progress We are playing a leading role in championing seabird towards achieving sustainable fisheries and integrating protection in Europe by challenging the European fishing with other marine activities. We have moved Commission at the November Council meeting to introduce forward in protecting our marine environment, and an EU seabird plan of action. progress on common fisheries policy reform and other A major theme of our work is integrating fishing initiatives are good news for fish stocks and fishermen. with other marine activities. I have mentioned the Marine Although there will be difficult choices in the coming and Coastal Access Act 2009, with which Members will year, we have firm foundations on which to build. I look be very familiar; I thank them for their support in forward to hearing the views of Members. 1049 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1050

8.12 pm The most recent figures show that there are some 12,761 fishermen in the UK. About 80 per cent. of Mr. Richard Benyon (Newbury) (Con): It is a great them are regular and the remainder are part-time. The pleasure to speak in my first fisheries debate as the total number of fishermen is down by a third since spokesman for my party. 1997, with the catching industry in the UK landing I welcome this important debate, and the opportunity about £645 million-worth of catches, which can result to turn our full attention to the serious issues that face in £800 million to £1.2 billion-worth of economic activity. our fishing industry and the health of our seas. With the Behind every fisherman and vessel there is a fishing December European Union Fisheries Council and its community, with about five onshore jobs—down from negotiations for the 2010 quota allocation fast approaching, 10—for every fisherman. While much of today’s debate this debate is most timely. Today, the Fisheries Committee will relate to fishermen, we must remember the shore-based of the European Parliament met, and on 14 and 15 jobs as well. December the Minister and others will be taking part in In the past, this annual debate has been limited in the Fisheries Council. It is also good to see so many scope. We should remind ourselves that the health of Members present with interests in coastal Britain, the our seas is a national concern. I think many of us who fishing industry and related matters such as angling, were involved in the passage of the Marine and Coastal which is an extremely important activity for so many Access Act 2009 were taken aback by the amount of people. organisations and ordinary people who lobbied us on that Bill. The Co-op’s customer polling showed that a vast number of people across the land—not just in Mr. Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con): Does my coastal Britain—are now taking an active interest in the hon. Friend agree that tourist destinations such as the health of our seas. If we add the 1.3 million sea anglers, Isle of Wight could benefit from some joined-up thinking we realise how important a national issue this is. in respect of commercial fisheries and policies that affect sea angling? Consumers have a key role to play in the future of our fisheries. Through the choices they make in supermarkets, they can support innovative schemes such Mr. Benyon: My hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is as the Marine Stewardship Council accreditation scheme, clear to me from my visits around coastal Britain that which has genuine potential to help achieve a sustainable we can learn a lot from other countries, where activities future for our fisheries. such as recreational angling, which I am sure we will UK household consumption of fish continues to hear a lot about in this debate, are integrated much increase. The amount of money spent on fish by consumers more with tourism. In Ireland, for example, on the jumped from £1.96 billion to £2.57 billion between 1996 approach roads to coastal ports there are signs advertising and 2005, so this issue has an impact on our food not only hotels but boat hire, tackle shops and so forth. security as well as our economic security. However, The industry there is much more integrated. This also while the consumer demand for fish rises, it is no secret has an impact on the fishing industry, in which so many that the UK’s fisheries are struggling. Dwindling fish people are involved. We can learn a lot, and we can do a stocks and a patchy understanding of the overall state lot to try to make these industries more integrated. of stocks, overcapacity, wasteful discarding, mismanagement This year more than ever we are debating fisheries of quota, top-down micro-management, and a common during uncertain times for the UK fishing industry. At fisheries policy that even Commissioner Joe Borg has present, the UK pelagic fleet is facing uncertainty as described as international negotiations over mackerel with the EU, “inefficient, expensive and too complex” Norway and the Faeroes continue to drag on, while the have all served to deepen the woes of UK fisheries and white fish sector continues to be squeezed by reduced the industry they support. quotas and days at sea. Moreover, the implementation Of course, when debating the future of our fisheries, of marine conservation zones, and the formation of the we cannot simply look at the industry. A more holistic Marine Management Organisation and the new inshore approach must be adopted that takes into account the fisheries and conservation authorities, is under way. fact that fisheries play a vital environmental, as well as Before I continue, I would like to take this opportunity recreational, role, with UK waters housing 50 per cent. to join the Minister in paying tribute to our fishermen, of total UK biodiversity, and recreational sea anglers who do a very dangerous and increasingly difficult job contributing £538 million to the economy and supporting catching the fish that end up on our plates. In the last 19,000 jobs. 12 years, 120 UK fishermen have died at sea—51 in the under-10 metre sector and 69 in the over-10 metre fleets. Bob Spink: The hon. Gentleman will be aware that Fishing remains one of the most dangerous jobs, and three years ago the Conservative policy was to get out while we talk on a political level in this debate, it is of the common fisheries policy because it is so disastrous, important that we remember that the realities at sea but a U-turn was performed by his current leader. Is his affect not only livelihoods and communities, but the leader minded to do another U-turn and actually help lives of thousands of people. I am also indebted to the fishing community by getting out of the CFP? many fishermen and others in coastal communities for the time they spent with me as I travelled around Mr. Benyon: I am not going to waste my breath going coastal Britain seeking solutions from those who live down this long avenue of discussion, as we can address and breathe the issues we are discussing. I also wish to it on another occasion and we are currently talking pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Leominster about the fishing industry. If I ever find myself in the (Bill Wiggin), who did a lot when holding the post I lucky position of holding the office the Minister present now occupy. He is a hard act to follow. occupies, I will put all my energies into pushing at what 1051 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1052

[Mr. Benyon] Unfortunately, it is not just our use of language that has failed to reflect the diversity I was just discussing. I believe is an open door in Europe, in the light of the More worryingly, the approach taken to the management green paper that the European Commission recently of our fisheries has, to date, failed to take into account published. I will talk about that shortly. the diverse range of interests and issues confronting us. I look forward to the day when Parliament can debate A micro-managed approach to fisheries has meant that fisheries in a positive and upbeat fashion, rather than for too long we have been trying to push square blocks approaching the industry as one that seems, usually into round holes, forcing the whole industry to conform through no fault of its own, to lurch from one crisis to to over-centralised regulation without taking into account another. How much better it would be to take this the difference among its constituent parts. As a result, opportunity to applaud the industry for sustainably fishermen are struggling to survive in some areas, whereas harvesting the seas in a way that contributes to a there is latent capacity in others; and there are shockingly healthy product that is much needed for our food security high rates of discard of certain species of fish and and our national well-being. That is a future to which dwindling stocks of others, as well as disproportionate we can all aspire. allocations of quota between sectors. I wish to speak about not only the industry but the marine environment. I am of the opinion that those two Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): On strands are not at odds: they are two sides of the same discarding, is my hon. Friend aware of a voluntary trial coin, with fishermen playing a fundamentally important in the west country by south-west trawlermen? They are role in the achievement of a sustainable future for UK experimenting with increased mesh sizes and changing fisheries. As I have travelled around fishing communities, their gear to try to reduce the number of unwanted fish I have been struck by how many fishermen are the sons that are caught, and early reports indicate that there has and grandsons of fishermen, and by how many want been a 60 per cent. reduction in discards. Is that not the their sons and grandsons, in turn, to go into the business. sort of bottom-up, voluntary approach we should be The concept of stewardship is alive and well in coastal encouraging? communities, and we in Parliament must do all we can to support it. I cannot help but feel that the use of a sweeping term Mr. Benyon: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his such as “the UK fishing industry” is misleading in some intervention, because that is precisely the point I am way. The UK fishing industry houses a diverse range of coming on to make. The Minister touched on this issue, interests that could not be more different in the way but I believe that much more can be done to empower they operate and even in the species they fish for. The fishermen to be the solution, rather than being seen by UK is home to a diverse and varied fishing community, too many people as the problem. The scheme that my ranging from recreational sea anglers and small hon. Friend outlines is an absolute model for management independently owned inshore vessels to large commercial in the future. I shall discuss why that is so important vessels backed by producer organisations. The industry and why it remains my intention to see it work in the is home to the inshore, offshore, under-10 metre and future. over-10 metre fleets, as well as the trawlers, pole and line I will take this opportunity also to pay tribute to the vessels and producer organisations. More diversity could Scottish fishing industry. I have been impressed by not be housed in one industry. One of the most useful what I have seen in the way of real-time closures, the statistics I have been given is that 51 per cent. of the UK conservation credits scheme, the technical measures catch is landed in three ports, which means that 49 per that have been adopted and the serious approach taken cent. is landed in 280 ports. I want to make sure that to sustainability responsibilities that the fishermen those 280 ports remain viable, and that the people who themselves have implemented. Scottish fishermen must support the fishing industry in those communities can not take all the praise, because a lot of good work is have an industry of which they can be proud. going on in England—in my hon. Friend’s constituency and elsewhere. Mr. Weir: I am very interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Does he agree that fishermen need It is clear that the current system of quota management to be consulted on changes in the marine environment, is not working. It has served to encourage discarding particularly in respect of offshore renewables, about and has driven many fishermen out of business. This which many fishermen in my constituency have serious Government have repeatedly stumbled over quota concerns? I have put them in touch with the developers allocation—for example, distributing quota among the and their concerns are being addressed, but it is important 10-metre and under and over-10 metre fleets in a completely that fishermen feel part of that negotiation and do not disproportionate and haphazard manner. That has resulted have things imposed upon them. in the 4,833 10-metre and under vessels receiving only 3 per cent. of the national quota, compared with the Mr. Benyon: I understand entirely what the hon. 96 per cent. that goes to the over-10 metre fleet, which Gentleman is saying. I have not given the Scottish has about 1,500 vessels. As I have said to the Minister marine Bill the same detailed examination that I gave before—he wants to corner me on this—I am not in the our marine Bill, for obvious reasons, but I can say that business of impoverishing one sector to the benefit of the concept of marine spatial planning—although that another, but even those running large producer organisations term is ghastly, it is important—was vital in the English say to me, “If you get into government, for goodness’ Bill. Fishermen should be involved in that decision sake do something about the under-10 metre fleet in right from the start. There is much in terms of marine England and Wales.” That is because it has for too long conservation and marine renewables that can work together suffered from the completely disproportionate sharing if things are done in the right way. of the cake. 1053 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1054

Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): Next time my hon. fishermen are not being consulted when they should be. Friend is discussing quota allocation with the Minister, Many had to invest considerable amounts of time and will he find out exactly how much of the UK quota was money in getting sustainable gear for selective fishing, unused in any one year? but they cannot now pursue those methods as they are not in possession of any additional quota. I understand Mr. Benyon: The issue of latent capacity, which my that pilot schemes have to be stopped if they are not hon. Friend raises, is fundamental to the resolution of working, but the apparent lack of consultation with the this problem, and I shall discuss that in a moment. fishing industry is more than worrying. A further example of not quite getting it right is the I am under no illusions: if I were to be in the somewhat unusual idea of a “cod quota lottery” for this Minister’s place after the election, I would not have a year’s remaining under-10 metre area VIId cod, which magic wand to wave to solve the many problems that was recently proposed by the Marine and Fisheries the industry is facing, but the industry is in crisis and Agency. The scheme proposes that rather than the the issue of quota allocation is complex. A quota system remaining cod quota being split between the 183 cod that suits one sector of the fishing industry might be catcher vessels in area VIId, 36 vessels would be chosen completely unsuitable for the other. It is therefore imperative at random in a lottery draw to receive the allocation of that we move away from a blanket approach and that quota between them. I have a copy of a letter from the we look at quota not only on a fishery-by-fishery basis MFA explaining the scheme. It is dated 20 November but also in terms of vessels. and it states: That is a prime example of how the CFP is not “Applications for the draw are invited now and that list will be working at the moment. Most of our fisheries are mixed closed on Thursday November 26th.” and micromanagement from Brussels simply does not On the basis that it probably took three days for the work here. Innovation, localism, devolved powers—those letter to arrive and for fishermen to respond, it is are the way forward. Whatever we have to do, there extraordinary to think that that might be a proper way must be a fairer way of dividing up quota than the one to allocate this kind of quota. that we have currently. If the idea were not bizarre enough, I discovered that no consultation was made with the inshore sector about Sir Menzies Campbell (North-East Fife) (LD): The the lottery. It is being sold as a way of making the hon. Gentleman has spent a commendable amount of allocation of cod quota in area VIId “fair to all”, but in time talking about the 10-metre and under sector. As I the fishermen’s opinion it is doing the exact opposite, am sure he has found out from his travels north and creating infighting and a completely unlevel playing south of the border, in many cases it is that sector that field in the sector. supports the village-based industry. Would he be willing to extend the localism that he is talking about as far When I meet fishermen up and down the country I down as those components of the village-based fishing hear the same story of the reality of fish stocks not industry? being reflected in quota. We absolutely must underpin quota allocation with science, but that science should be Mr. Benyon: I absolutely am giving that assurance to informed by the fishermen as well. Partnerships between the right hon. and learned Gentleman, because I think scientists and fishermen are a great step forward and a that localism is best. I shall come on to talk about the genuine opportunity to obtain coherent data on fish over-10 metre sector as well, but I am encouraged by the stocks that would, in turn, allow us to manage our direction of travel in the debate. The Minister has also quota more effectively. I hope the Minister will do all touched on the fact that there is a fair amount of that he can to encourage those partnerships and gain a agreement here. There is an opportunity to devolve better insight into UK fish stocks. power so that fishermen, even at a really local level, can On one of my visits to the east coast, I was made take control of the industry. The inshore fisheries and aware by a local fisherman of a scheme called the conservation authorities may be the appropriate vehicle environmental responsibility fishing project, which was by which they can reverse the burden of proof so that abruptly cancelled last month. The scheme took 30 they can be trusted to deliver genuine change and police under-10 metre vessels, removed restrictions on what themselves. I shall deal with that briefly in the short they caught and allowed them to land all of their catch. time that I have left. Apparently, the scheme’s purpose was to give the Marine Discards are a further symptom of the failure of the and Fisheries Agency a better indication of what levels current system of quotas, as a number of hon. Members of stock there were in a particular area. have noted already.According to the International Council The boats were allocated 2 per cent. of total allowable for the Exploration of the Sea, 45 per cent. of cod catch, but they ended up catching around 20 per cent. caught in the North sea last year were discarded. Much because of the amount of cod in that area. They finished higher levels of discards are reported in more inshore catching cod in late May, but at the beginning of November, waters. The reality of discards can be seen on the just as the cod season was about to begin, they were told north-east coast, where fishermen operating in a mixed that the scheme was cancelled. They were given 500 kg fishery are being forced to discard the whiting that is of quota a month, which most of the vessels were being caught in abundance due to a reduction in TAC. catching in a day. Naturally, there was considerable The overall TAC is not being caught but the UK concern among the fishermen about how to make a quota means that vessels have had to discard whiting living in the period up to the next quota year. from March onwards this year. If the proposed reductions It is my understanding that the fishermen involved in go ahead next year, they claim that they will be discarding the scheme got no warning that the experiment was from January, and that is a prime example of the going to be stopped. If there is a theme here, it is that current inflexibility of the EU’s TAC and quota system. 1055 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1056

Mr. Carmichael: Will the hon. Gentleman allow me? you,” but, “We’ll educate you, provide you with the means by which you can change the way you fish, and Mr. Benyon: I am conscious of the time and hope that support you in trying to fish more sustainably”? That the hon. Gentleman will allow me to make a little more would be a much better way to proceed, so I pay tribute progress, as I might be coming to the point that I think to the NFFO for bringing its proposal forward as part he may be about to raise. of the debate on CFP reform. However, I was pleased by the Minister’s confirmation The top-down, centralised approach that has been that the Government are backing the Aalborg declaration followed thus far cannot continue if we are to achieve of earlier this year. That has shown a commitment at sustainable fisheries. With CFP reforms on the horizon, last to tackling discards, as it allows fishermen to land we must seize the opportunity for wholesale reform that all of their catch. The Minister will be aware that that decentralises day-to-day management of fisheries to a reflects a policy discussed by my hon. Friend the Member local level. We must trust fishermen’s knowledge of for Leominster over the past year. The commitment is their fisheries and allow them to lead the way on fisheries welcome, but it would have been better if the UK had management. Regional advisory councils already provide been able to take the lead and put its own policy on an effective model for that, and if the new inshore discards in place. We need to go further than these fisheries and conservation authorities created by the headline announcements. We need to be firm in calling 2009 Act are implemented effectively, they will offer real on the EU to take a more flexible approach and give the potential for devolving responsibility to where the UK the opportunity to pilot schemes for local management knowledge really lies. in our fisheries to reduce discards. We should not be making disjointed and largely Getting the reform right is of utmost importance to unsuccessful efforts to confront the issues facing our thousands of British fishermen. The current version of industry. The Minister touched on decommissioning, the CFP has been almost universally acknowledged as a but I think he is on thin ice with that issue. If I had been disaster for both the fishing industry and the health of in his position, with the millions of pounds that have the marine environment. It has failed to provide a been spent on decommissioning, I think I could have sustainable future for our fishermen and failed to protect made a better job of rebalancing the industry. I would our fish stocks. There is no room for back-seat politics have held the quota that he allowed to remain with when it comes to CFP reform. If I am lucky enough to individuals as a national asset and given it—[Interruption.] find myself in the Minister’s position, my party and I It was in the Minister’s gift to give it to whatever groups will engage at every level in the EU to ensure that we get of fishermen he felt had been unfairly treated. the best possible deal for the future of fishermen. The European Commission has opened a window of opportunity for the radical reform of the common Huw Irranca-Davies: I am sorry for wasting other fisheries policy and it is imperative that the Minister hon. Members’ time by intervening on this point, but it and anyone who follows him exercise as much influence is important that we hear the hon. Gentleman’s view. Is as possible over the reforms. he suggesting that we give it to the under-10s? Because that was what we did. As I have said, the issues affecting fisheries do not begin and end with the industry. If our fisheries are to Mr. Benyon: The Minister gave a small amount to the have a sustainable future, we must take steps to conserve under-10s, but if that quota had been held, millions of fish stocks and rebalance the industry so that effort pounds of decommissioning money could have been does not outstrip supply. The 2009 Act has provided a spent much more effectively on rebalancing the industry. once-in-a-generation opportunity to carry out meaningful I will be happy to discuss this with him at any time, but I and effective conservation measures for our seas. The think he got that one badly wrong. creation of marine conservation zones, IFCAs and the Of course, the EU and member states have an oversight Marine Management Organisation is a positive step in role, but day-to-day management must be devolved to a the right direction. It was a pleasure to work on the Act local level. Irresponsible fishermen must be taken to as it proceeded through Parliament, and the cross-party task, but they are the minority. The majority of fishermen consensus that operated in a bid to put the legislation are responsible stewards of our seas, and they are keen on the statute book was a model of how to take such a to be trusted and given the responsibility to make a measure through the House. difference to the fisheries on which they rely. We have, however, done the easy bit. I remember I draw hon. Members’ attention to the common seeing a look of satisfaction on the faces of many hon. fisheries policy Green Paper, because it gives the industry Members as we passed the Act, but MCZs must be an opportunity to become less decentralised. I commend thoughtfully implemented and properly managed. Enacting the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations a Bill is, in a sense, just a process—it is the outcomes for producing a very good paper, in which it talks about that really matter. It is imperative that the designation an approach of sustainable fishing plans, which is similar of MCZs is an ongoing, flexible process that addresses to a policy that I have discussed as I have gone around the wide range of environmental challenges facing the the country. The proposal is for three to five-year plans marine environment. We also need a buy-in from fishermen, in which technical measures and accreditation schemes but that will be achieved only if we work with them, could be assessed, and the burden of proof could be rather than impose measures on them. The Minister reversed. The approach would not only have additional commented in response to an intervention from the benefit for fishermen, because how much more fun hon. Member for St. Ives (Andrew George) on conservation would it be for someone to work for the MFA or the areas and special protected areas. If Natural England is marine maritime organisation if they could say not, true to its word, MCZs will be implemented in a balanced “You can’t do this, and if you try that, we’ll criminalise process that will involve fishermen at an early stage. 1057 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1058

The implementation of European special protected only two and a quarter hours, of which the first hour areas is causing concern. The other day I was in Weymouth, has been taken up by the Front-Bench speakers? It is where fishermen had been shown lines on maps of appalling that we are forced to cram our remarks on the fishing areas in which they have had crab pots for many forthcoming talks into that time, particularly as these years. However, such plans should be explained to them talks will be some of the most difficult that we have had at an early stage. There may be a thoroughly justified to face. reason why those areas have been protected, but the fact that fishermen have not been consulted is a problem. Today’s Norway talks will be complicated by the unilateral mackerel quotas grabbed by Iceland, the Faroes A further challenge arising from the 2009 Act is the and Norway.We face a difficult settlement in the December transition of the Marine and Fisheries Agency to the Council meeting because of the problem of cod in the new Marine Management Organisation. I hope that the Irish sea. We face a situation in which co-decision is to Minister’s optimism is justified. I welcome the creation be extended to the European Parliament, which will of this important new Government agency, which I bring many more political considerations into a common hope will breathe new life into the approach to fisheries fisheries policy that should not be dominated by politics, management, but I am concerned lest the transition and will increase the leverage of the conservation and from the MFA should result in the loss of specialist environmental fanatics, who regard commercial fishing expertise. I learned from the written answer to a recent as the enemy rather than the agent of conservation and parliamentary question that some 67 MFA staff have sustainable fishing, which is how I see it. They will pay refused to relocate to the new MMO in Tyneside. For more attention to the cuddly seals than to the fish that many months, inside the organisation, reference was the seals eat. made to the Tyneside 10. The Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the hon. Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): On a Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon), said that the reform point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Would you provide of the common fisheries policy for which he so much guidance as to whether there will be time for any hoped was pushing at an open door. I have to say that Back-Bench contributions to the debate? some horrible things have emerged behind that door so far, with the first grab of power by the European Mr. Deputy Speaker: Yes, indeed there will be, and Commission when it introduced the technical rules, points of order like that one just take up even more which have been abominated by fishermen and the time. fishing organisations. The rules were rushed in with no consultation and were top-down measures of the type Mr. Benyon: I am bringing my remarks to a conclusion, that we do not want. Fortunately they were postponed, but it is important that the Minister understands the but the Commission has now insisted on an EU control concern within the organisation about the MMO. The regulation which will provide for only a 10 per cent. Government are not good at machinery of government margin of tolerance between the logbook estimates and changes or at managing people and organisations. There the landing declarations. may be very good reasons why Tyneside was chosen for the relocation, and I have nothing against the area, but That will lead to prosecutions all over Europe, particularly the Minister should have consulted the MFA employees in this country, where our authorities are more assiduous much earlier to encourage more of them to go to the than most, as soon as we get electronic logbooks. It is new MMO, because it is important that it works. We very difficult to estimate the size of the small amounts will all support it when it comes into operation in April, of by-catch, and any error of more than 10 per cent. but it has not had a good start. will lead to prosecution. That will lead to an insane situation, with prosecutions all over Europe and all over I approach my role with no sense of a one-size-fits-all England. In Grimsby recently a skipper was found to solution, and I intend to work with anyone who wants a have a discrepancy of only 8 per cent. between his meaningful discussion about how to approach the future logbook estimate and his landing declaration on plaice, of our seas. However, if my party comes to power, the for which he was prosecuted, although there were no health of our seas, the viability of fishing as a business quota restrictions on his producer organisation for that and the plight of our coastal communities will be real species. challenges for a new Government, and they will be a priority for my party in the months and years ahead. If that is an augury of things to come, it is an augury of disaster. If it is an augury of the kind of thing that Several hon. Members rose— the reform of the common fisheries policy will throw up, then that is even worse. We should oppose such Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. The reforms. Reform should pass power down from the eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches will apply centre—the point made by hon. Gentleman—from the from now on. command and control economy and management system operated by the Commission to the regional advisory 8.44 pm councils and to a self-regulating industry. “Trust the fishermen” should be the slogan. The de facto decision Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): May I making should be devolved and responsibility should express my resentment that this major fishing debate, be delegated. which is important to all of us and brings together the best and the brightest Members of Parliament—that is We need sustainable fishing plans managed by producer to say, the fishermen of England, Scotland and Northern organisations that will document the vessels’ activities Ireland, plus a line fisherman from Reading-super- and performance and will audit the situation—a bottom-up Mare—to discuss the issues of fishing has been allowed rather than a top-down system, such as the one that 1059 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1060

[Mr. Austin Mitchell] from the change to the regulation on under-10 metre vessels. The hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin operates in Australia. We need to combine that with Salter) will mention recreational sea anglers and the long-term management plans, and I hope the Government regulations affecting them. In an intervention on the will support that. Minister, I also mentioned that two of the five special In the December Council, the probable 25 per cent. areas of conservation—the special protection areas—are reduction in fishing mortality under the cod recovery within my constituency. Their likely impact should be a plan in the Irish sea and Scottish westerly waters will good opportunity for the Government and Natural divert effort from those waters into the North sea and England to show that, in fact, conservation and a damage the industry there. The cod recovery plan is not sustainable fishing industry can work together. We will working effectively in the North sea, either, so the time watch that one closely. Further challenges include the has come to review the plan and ask whether we cannot roll-out of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 sustain and rebuild the stocks by other means. Something and the implementation of the inshore fisheries and has to be done about a plan that is manifestly not conservation authorities, and I congratulate the Minister working. We must note that any reduction in the days-at-sea on his decision to retain the integrity of the current allowances will lead to “Olympic” fishing, whereby boundaries of the sea fisheries committees. people go out and catch all that they can. They will I shall emphasise a theme in my contribution. On the catch more cod as by-catch, and that will encourage future of this industry, we do not envisage the “them more discards. The same situation will apply to nephrops, and us” culture of the past, with the fishing industry because of the failure of the catches on the Porcupine working against those enforcing the regulations and the bank off Ireland, which will have a knock-on effect on scientists, or vice versa. Instead, we envisage everyone the whole area. Why can we not combine haddock and working together, with the shared objectives of a sustainable whiting quotas to reduce whiting discards? Fishermen industry—scientists and regulators working with the could make a return and land their stock, and we could industry, and the industry often leading the debate on avoid the problem of such large discards. constructive proposals for its future. It is appropriate that I give only a short speech, but I I want to deal with the annual Fisheries Council, want the Minister to make such proposals at the December common fisheries policy reform, and the Green Paper, Council. The industry will support them. He has done a and to look at constructive ways forward. The Minister very good and helpful job so far, but the crunch time is will be aware, as he has been through this already, that now, and it is important to resist the Commission’s we will no doubt again have the absurdity of the 11th-hour proposals. brinkmanship of overnight negotiations as the fishing nations come together to resolve the remaining issues of debate and disagreement. I wish him well in those 8.51 pm discussions. Of course, we agree that decisions should Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): I entirely agree with be based on sound science, but what do we do if the the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell): we science is not there or if there has been insufficient need protected time in which to undertake this debate in recent scientific assessment? That has bedevilled much future, so that we do not lose time because of other of our debate in years gone by. Throughout area 7, business. Many hon. Members wish to take part, and I many of the scientific assessments are based on last shall do my utmost to make my remarks as quickly as year’s, not this year’s, assessments. What are we to do in possible so that we allow as many hon. Members to those circumstances? I hope that the Minister will say speak as we can. that he is working towards remedying that situation We use this debate as an opportunity both to demonstrate early in 2010. Scientists, the industry, DEFRA, the our appreciation of those in the industry, especially the regional advisory councils and the European Commission catching sector, who are engaged in the most hazardous need to work together to address it. profession, and to convey our sympathies to the families Another theme that runs through those negotiations, and colleagues of those men who engage in this important which possibly affects areas 6 and 7 more than others, is industry to put fish on our tables and who are lost at the “use or lose it” method, which results in perverse sea. outcomes—for example, the Cornish fishermen lose out I pay tribute to the Minister and agree with about 90 if the French do not catch their quota. If quotas are not per cent. of what he said. I shall try to concentrate on rolled over, there is also the perverse incentive whereby the areas where we disagree, rather than on those where fishermen are encouraged to catch rather than to preserve we agree. In that respect, I pay tribute also to the hon. their stock. I hope that the Minister will take that into Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon), because, having account in his negotiations in the Fisheries Council. heard a decade of fantasy from the Conservatives, I The practice of quota swapping increasingly happens think it useful and helpful to hear that the party has between nations. As a result of the establishment of the turned around and is now engaged in constructive RACs, Cornish fishermen are working well with French dialogue about the future of the fishing industry fishermen, and that is happening elsewhere, too. Surely in relation to its international objectives with the rest that is a beneficial outcome. It is better to develop of Europe. international relations by joint working within the RACs. The negotiations are very difficult. The Minister will I understand that that is not yet sanctioned or supported be aware that the main, very important fishing port of by the Minister and his Department, so I hope that he Newlyn in my constituency, which I hope he will visit will take that point on board. soon, had a troubled year. It is now, however, looking The Minister mentioned the need to preserve spurdogs, positively to the future. However, many challenges affect porbeagle sharks, skates and rays. Those are non-target my constituency and others. They include the challenges species, and rightly so, but they are an unavoidable 1061 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1062 by-catch in many of the sectors that we are talking The second example, which the hon. Gentleman about. I hope that he will work with the industry to try mentioned, is an excellent initiative largely driven by the to ensure that we reduce that by-catch, as the measures industry in Scotland—the Scottish conservation credits proposed in the settlement for the Fisheries Council will scheme, which was introduced last February. They are not save a single spurdog, porbeagle shark, skate or ray. Celts, but they are rather laggardly Celts, because they He has received a letter from the Cornish Fish Producers are slightly behind the Cornish, but never mind. We will Organisation, dated 27 November, which contains some forgive them for that—at least they are ahead of the significant proposals that I hope he will take into account. Anglo-Saxons. The scheme is based on voluntarily closed I think that we are all reading from the same page in areas, changes in gear, the management of effort and the debate on common fisheries policy reform. We want the maintenance of days at sea. it to be more devolved on the basis of better science, The industry has come up not only with those two better monitoring and better, more even enforcement excellent initiatives, which are already working, but across Europe, with more buy-in, based on a constructive with something of which I hope the Minister will take dialogue, from an industry incentivised to promote account—the sustainable fishing plans. The hon. Member long-term objectives and sustainability. However, the for Newbury has already described them, so I do not remaining issue, which we often come back to, is the need to. I hope that the Minister will take into account role of total allowable catches and quotas in the future what hon. Members have said and ensure that the plans of the CFP. I think we can also all agree, as we have become the basis on which we can build an agenda for tended to do so in all the debates that I have engaged in, the future in which the industry is keyed in and working that quotas are a blunt instrument. They create the constructively with scientists, marine conservationists obscenity of discarding fish, they create a barrier to and law enforcers. There must be greater teamwork, new entrants, they are almost useless in protecting stock with all of us working together, rather than the “them in mixed fisheries, particularly ultra-mixed fisheries such and us” culture of the past. as those in my area, and they are perceived as often being based on arbitrary assessments and threadbare 9.3 pm evidence. There are many other criticisms of TACs and quotas. Mr. Frank Doran (Aberdeen, North) (Lab): I welcome However, the problem is that as soon as one starts to the approach that the Minister has taken and the think of getting rid of them, the industry says that the opportunity once again to discuss the fishing industry. problem is that the most highly valued stock—in my Not a lot changes—in the 20 years or so that I have area, Dover sole and turbot, for example—would be been attending these debates, Front-Bench speeches the first to be plundered and would therefore slip down have always been too long and the debate has always the value chain. Moreover, that approach would hit the been too short, and we are always compressed like this. areas that are as close as possible to port, particularly The Minister opened the debate by referring to the when fuel prices are high. It would not work. I have huge changes that we are seeing in the industry, a noticed that the National Federation of Fishermen’s number of which have been mentioned by all three Organisations is very clear about wanting a system Front Benchers, but nothing much has changed for the strongly based on quotas. industry, because this year it is once again facing a lot of uncertainty. That is partly about the Norway and EU The problem with discards is how to distinguish discussions that are taking place today, and the level of between intended and unintended over-quota by-catches. uncertainty is much greater this year because of the That has been a conundrum for the regulators and will mackerel stocks, which have been mentioned a number continue to be. If we got rid of quotas altogether, those of times. It is clear that the industry faces a number of who had invested properly would not be properly rewarded serious problems, and it will need to adjust to the for it in future quotas and licences. Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. Probably most The hon. Member for Newbury referred to the NFFO’s important are the changes in the CFP. There is a lot of proposed sustainable fishing plans, which are clearly the optimism, and it is important that we are all singing way forward. It has stated that a future CFP should be: from the same hymn sheet on such a fundamental issue. “The catching and gathering of marine resources for the The all-party fisheries group recently met representatives benefit of humankind in ways that do not prejudice future of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the National generations”. Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations. I have to say I would add that that should probably include their that I did not detect a huge amount of optimism from appreciation of a healthy and diverse marine environment. them about where they saw the EU going, despite the The culture has changed for the better over the past NFFO’s very good report on the Commission’s green decade, and there is a strong and constructive dialogue. paper. There is still a lot of uncertainty about whether The industry is working constructively with marine the Fisheries Council or the European Commission scientists, and there are two good examples of that. The would want to give up their power. first is the Cornish Trevose ground closure, which has That situation has been made slightly worse because now been in operation for four years. It was designed the industry is smarting from the decision that the for cod recovery, and anecdotally it is working. We have Fisheries Council took last week on the west coast not yet had a review of the impact that it is having, and white fish sector. That is likely to have an impact, not I hope that the Minister will ensure that there is one. just on the Scottish industry but around the country, Has it displaced effort elsewhere, and what contribution because of the displacement that may be caused, because has it made to the spawning stock biomass, sustainable of other factors and, more importantly, because of the yields and the recovery of cod and other species? Knowing attitude taken by the Commission. There is deep concern, that would be particularly helpful. certainly about the attitude of the Fisheries Council, 1063 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1064

[Mr. Frank Doran] culture, and we need to work to change that. I make a simple plea to the Minister: in all the hectic rounds of because the decision seemed to show that it is still in the talks and negotiations over quotas, which do not happen driving seat, and that there is still centralised control. just at this time of year but throughout the year, will he The industry saw the emergency regulations introduced and the Government as a whole not lose sight of the earlier in the year as temporary, and there was real importance of the safety of our fishermen? concern and surprise when the Council extended them. That is a serious matter for concern. 9.10 pm It is quite clear from the UK industry—this comes through in the NFFO publication mentioned earlier, Bill Wiggin (Leominster) (Con): I begin by praising and in publications from the Scottish Fishermen’s the work of the Angling Trust, whose headquarters are Federation—that it strongly wishes to move away from in Leominster, in my constituency. I am very proud that the current centralised approach, and towards a regional it has chosen to base itself there. Herefordshire has the management system, whereby local decisions can be famous River Wye, the finest salmon river in England. taken by stakeholders under a process of rigorously The Angling Trust came into effect in January 2009—the applied and regulated criteria. That is certainly set out hon. Member for Reading, West (Martin Salter) and I in the Commission’s green paper, but the question is were there—and it has provided a unified voice for whether the attitude recently shown by the Commission angling needs, which is a tremendous asset. Some 4 suggests that it is seriously likely to consider that route. million anglers contribute £1 billion to the economy That is something that we need to consider carefully. and support more than 20,000 jobs. The trust has done The Minister mentioned the number of jobs in the a good job of keeping the interests of angling to the fore industry, but he did not mention the onshore side of the in the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. I hope that industry—the fish processing side. It is going through the Minister will take on board the fact that it is difficulties of its own. It suffers the same uncertainty essential that angling interests are properly represented about supplies, but of course it can, and does, import on inshore fisheries and conservation authorities and from ports around the world. Like every other business, are not just lumped in with other interests. They need a fish processing businesses are under pressure, particularly proper voice. because of the lending position taken by many banks. Angling is a great inclusive sport. I would also like to Those businesses face the same difficulties as the rest of pay tribute to the organisations that support disabled British industry, and we should recognise the importance angling, particularly the British Disabled Angling of fish processors to the fishing industry. Association. Unfortunately, last year the Government The Minister rightly paid tribute to those fishermen— hit disabled anglers with a one-third increase in their 12 this year—who have lost their lives in the UK fishing fishing licence fees, and 140,000 senior and disabled industry. We all know that the fishing industry is the anglers are now paying more for their concessionary most dangerous industry in this country. A research rates. project carried out by two academics at Swansea university In a written answer to me, the hon. Member for and published in 2007 set out the shocking figures. The Chatham and Aylesford (Jonathan Shaw), then a DEFRA fatal accident rate for UK fishermen between 1996 and Minister, confirmed in April 2008 that there would be 2005 was 115 times higher than that of the general UK another review of the concessionary rates for the licence work force. By comparison with other specific areas of fee in 2010. I hope that this Minister will ensure that work, that rate was 81 time higher than that in that review takes place and that angling groups and manufacturing, and 24 times higher than in the most disabled anglers, in particular, are fully included in that dangerous onshore industry, construction. review and that the concessionary rates do not remain That research was followed by a report by the marine as they are but go down so that more disabled anglers accident investigation branch, which was published last find it easier to go fishing. year. I know that the MAIB is not part of the Minister’s Article 47 of the related EU Commission regulation Department, but it investigated the causes of death of is the other serious concern against which anglers have the 256 commercial fishermen who died in 180 separate been battling. It would take the amount of fish caught marine accidents between 1992 and 2006. Those statistics by anglers and put it in with national quotas. As for the were added to and highlighted when Seafish published progress that has been made, it is a case of so far, so its report “The Price of Fish?” earlier this year. Seafish good. I tabled early-day motion 528 on this matter last is to be congratulated on the report and on the work year and I think that the European Economic and that it is doing on the subject. Social Committee has highlighted the impact on the The title of the report is apposite, because we know commercial sector and amended the wording. However, that as the economics get tougher in any industry, although I welcome the progress, we have to be careful. particularly the fishing industry, more and more risks Some of the terms in the existing wording allow the are taken; that is a sign of the times. That is a matter Council to introduce “specific management measures”, that we need to be cautious and careful about, and we including catching declarations and fishing authorisations, need to invest much more to tackle the problem. The where it is thought that a recreational fishery is having a hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr. Carmichael) “significant impact.” The danger may have abated, but talked about the culture of the industry. One anecdote it has not gone away. I hope that the Minister will keep that has stayed with me throughout the time that I have the House updated on such proposals and ensure that represented a fishing community is that of the old we veto them if the opportunity arises in Council. fisherman who was shown a new type of lifejacket. His The Minister mentioned the bluefin tuna. It is a first response to it was, “Aye, son, but does it catch tragedy that, even though that species is one of the most fish?” That is the culture of the industry. It is a dangerous endangered in the world, members of the International 1065 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1066

Commission for the Conservation of Atlantic Tunas— we need to ensure that, if at all possible, we reward best ICCAT—voted in November to allow 13,500 tonnes of behaviour. At the moment, that is not happening and bluefin tuna to be caught next year. That fish will be we need to do far more. extinct in two years’ time; it cannot be fished at that Equally, we need to look at how the Government are level, and it is a real mistake to allow it. More needs to allocating quota to the under-10-metre fleet. I understand be done to prevent illegal tuna fishing and we certainly that The Hague convention allocation went to the over- should not be considering having such big quotas. 10-metre fleet— On whaling, I must encourage the Government to take a very robust approach. Just recently, we saw the Huw Irranca-Davies: Not this year. Japanese make significant progress: they actually managed to win a vote. When that happened, I checked to see Bill Wiggin: That is the first time that the Government what the Government had done to encourage other have done what I asked last year and I am delighted countries to join the moratorium on whaling. Very little to hear it. That is fantastic. At last, we are being had been done and so I take this opportunity to say to listened to. the Minister that he must not take his eye off the Under the sustainable access to inshore fisheries project, ball—we are all agreed that whaling cannot be allowed the Minister introduced the environmentally responsible to be brought back. fishing pilot scheme for 31 vessels in the under-10-metre fleet in three areas. Those vessels can fish without We must ensure that effort goes into bringing on restriction and land their catches instead of discarding board countries that are not members of the International them. That is tremendous, but what I want to ensure is Whaling Commission. When the right hon. Member that the fish that are caught are recorded, so that we for Exeter (Mr. Bradshaw) was the relevant Minister, have proper scientific evidence and know what other he gave me a written answer that said that, of the people are doing. If that happens, there is hope for our 57 countries to which the Government sent their documents, industry. We have heard how dangerous it is, and we only 15 were non-IWC members. Seven of those have should remember those fishermen who have lost their still not joined: Bosnia, Latvia, Malta, Macedonia, lives at sea. This is an important issue and I wish the Serbia, Montenegro and Turkey. I hope that the Minister Minister well in the debate in Europe. will ensure that pressure is put on those countries to join the IWC and to ensure that whaling is not brought 9.18 pm back. Mr. Eddie McGrady (South Down) (SDLP): At this On the Marine and Coastal Access Act, I think we all time of year, the Northern Ireland fishing industry welcome the progress that has been made. I congratulate faces the Christmas season with dread and almost despair my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) because of the growing inability to earn a living at sea. I on the excellent job that he did in a very consensual and do not intend to address the broader issues, because positive way. He made sure that the Bill was as good as they have been, and will be, so eloquently addressed by it could possibly be, and I congratulate him on that. other hon. Members. I will discuss the more parochial One thing is still of critical importance—that other aspects of the issue that I would like the Minister to countries respect our efforts to preserve the marine consider. environment. At the moment, they do not have to do so, I endorse the praise for the Minister that has come which is why within six miles of our shore foreign from both sides of the House tonight for his administration fishermen can be obeying a completely different set of of this difficult industry. However, I shall unfortunately rules to those observed by British fishermen. We saw strike a discordant note. The House may be aware that that with bass pair trawling—a way of fishing that is the operation of the Hague preferences is particularly especially damaging to dolphins and that goes on just important to the island of Ireland, both north and out of range. I urge the Government to do everything south, but there is a feeling among the fishermen of they can to ensure that the six and 12-mile limits are Northern Ireland that they are now making an undue respected and that other European countries obey the proportion of the contribution under the Hague preferences. same rules as British fishermen. Until last year, the buy-back or swap of the losses was compensated for by the UK as a whole, but it appears I know that the Minister will be discussing fish stocks to Northern Ireland fishermen that this year they were in December, and he will know that 88 per cent. of fish the primary contributor to the swapping process. stocks in Europe are over-fished, compared to a global In an effort to gauge accurately the scale of the average of 25 per cent. Some 30 per cent. of stocks are swaps, fishermen asked DEFRA to give a summary of outside safe biological limits and 14 of the 47 fin fish the Hague preference losses for the Irish sea since 2000. stocks of importance to UK fishermen are now fished They were advised that the information could not be outside those limits. Only eight fin fish stocks are within released because although the December negotiation those limits. If the Minister can do just one thing in his teams had the information, they could not divert resources term of office it should be to ensure that those fish to release it. I find that a rather weak reason these days, stocks are preserved. Everyone agrees that discards are when we have the technical ability to transfer data wrong, but until we start to measure what is caught, we almost immediately. I must say, however, that I am will not have the scientific evidence that we need to disappointed because, in preparing for that point, I enforce proper discard bans. The hon. Member who wrote to the Minister on 6 November, but as yet I have mentioned what his fishermen were doing with larger not even received an acknowledgement. mesh sizes was right, but at the moment there is no I shall move on, however, to the more important issue incentive for fishermen to be more selective in their of the yearly quota cuts, including the one that will no gear—they do it out of the goodness of their hearts—and doubt come from Brussels this month. The Minister 1067 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1068

[Mr. Eddie McGrady] edge between reaching critical mass and suffering total annihilation, and sustaining the livelihood of those referred to the importance in certain fishing communities communities in the years to come. of this vital industry—on both sea and land—to their economic welfare. That could not be better exemplified Several hon. Members rose— or illustrated than in my constituency of South Down, where two thirds of the fishing effort is concentrated; Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The next speaker may the remaining third is in the neighbouring Antrim take the eight minutes that is allowed, but after that I constituency. In my constituency, and in one port in the propose to reduce the time to five minutes, to try to get Strangford constituency, the industry employs 1,200 as many people as possible at least to make some people, contributing nearly £100 million to the economy. contribution. That would be severely affected by a further decline owing to the small-industry wipe-out that has taken 9.25 pm place in constituencies such as mine and the complete collapse of the construction industry. Mr. Angus MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP): It is that time of year again when the CFP gets its usual The largest sector in the Northern Ireland fishing bad name. No one in Westminster seems to have a good industry is the prawn and nephrop sector—some 90 per word for it, but because of the great deities hanging cent. of the fishing fleet fishes for nephrops. That is the around our necks, it is not, unfortunately, challenged direct result of the yearly purges of the cod quota, seriously by any of the current big parties in the House, resulting in an overall cut in the quota to date of so fishing priorities are diluted. From the perspective of 84 per cent. Only six boats in Northern Ireland still fish Scottish desires, the priorities are diluted in the British for cod. Union. The UK’s desires are further diluted in the That dynamic change, however, has not been particularly European Union, but that is the CFP for us. I could go recognised by Europe, whose main proposal this year is on for far longer, but I notice that the hon. Member for to cut the nephrop and prawn sector by a further 30 per Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), my ally on this issue, is cent. If I remember rightly, last year, a more modest not in his place, so perhaps I will spare the House, as proposal for a 2 per cent. cut came out of the negotiations, hon. Members might not have the stomach for it. but even that cost the economy in small communities in We are where we are. What message I want to leave Northern Ireland £2 million. We could extrapolate a ringing in the Minister’s ears before he goes to Europe? 2 per cent. cut from a 30 per cent. cut, but we still do not I have a shopping list of things, and I am sure he will be know what might happen. If the proposal is taken taking notes on them or reading about them tomorrow. forward, at that rate of cut, several fish processing First, as has been mentioned, he should protect the factories and more than 200 jobs will be lost immediately. mackerel, Scotland’s second most important quota after On the prawn quota, the scientific evidence gathered langoustines or nephrops—call them what we will. I by the Agri-Food and Bio Sciences Institute is positive, hope that the Government at Westminster will not blink and shows that prawns in the Irish sea are fished sustainably on the issue. We hold the cards on mackerel. We should and that stocks are on an upward trend. Yet we have keep those cards and not trade mackerel away for any this proposal from Brussels for yet another massive cut. other species. Like the Northern Ireland regional agriculture and In the wider fishery, Scots fishermen in particular fisheries Minister, I would like the Minister to confirm have led the way on conservation issues, as has been whether the area 7 prawn quota will be the No. 1 mentioned. That should be recognised and rewarded, priority in the negotiations. not subject to the penalisation that so often characterises the common fisheries policy. On the wider philosophy Huw Irranca-Davies indicated assent. of fishing, a mixed fishery with quotas is just not working. For instance, the Faroese are using an effort-based Mr. McGrady: I thank the Minister for that confirmation. approach. They seem to be far more successful and are much happier with what is happening with their fishery— Since 1999, the European Commission has cut the they are also outside the common fisheries policy, of cod quota by 84 per cent., the whiting quota by 95 per course. One of the issues with quotas is that scientists cent. and the plaice quota by 96 per cent., with further emphasise the lowest stock in a mixed fishery, which reductions proposed of 25 per cent. for cod and plaice leads to a perverse approach to the management of and 30 per cent. for prawns. We must ask ourselves, that fishery. “How can we protect our fishing industry?” It is not just a question of the income, but of the tradition, know-how Huw Irranca-Davies indicated assent. and intimate knowledge gained over generations of fishing in particular places. Mr. MacNeil: The Minister knows the difficulty with One of the problems of Northern Ireland’s fishing that issue; I can see him nodding. industry is that it always feels one step away from the Given the time available, I will now raise the issues negotiating table. I welcomed the Minister’s saying earlier that are pressing in my area of Na h-Eileanan an Iar—a that regional devolution to some extent, under broad constituency that I am sure the Minister looks forward guidelines, can take place. That would be very much to pronouncing at the end of the debate—on the west welcomed by the fishing industry in Northern Ireland, coast of Scotland. If I can translate from Gaelic, the which co-operates fully with the scientific regime that is main point made earlier today by Duncan McInnes of measuring and advising on these matters. the Western Isles Fishermen’s Association is that the I hope the Minister will take on board the fact that squid and crayfish that are currently caught as part of the industry in Northern Ireland is on a delicate knife cod recovery should be excluded, as the cod by-catch in 1069 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1070 the fishery is effectively zero. I hope the Minister will I wish the Minister well at the talks—the annual look at that issue. Prawn fisheries in which the cod horse-trading, as it is dubbed. Let me say that it might caught accounts for less than 1.5 per cent. should also be easier for him if he had alongside him the ally of an be excluded, and those concerned should be given 200 days independent Scotland, which might happen in the not at sea and the ability to land the by-catch. too distant future. Finally, I would welcome the Minister to Stornoway at any time in the near future. The Minister may need to know that although west coast prawn numbers are currently low, they were also low in 1981, yet 1982 and 1983 were almost record 9.32 pm years. Prawn numbers are cyclical. The difficulty with Martin Salter (Reading, West) (Lab): I should like to the science is that it often takes snapshots, reporting thank our two Front-Bench spokesmen with all the things as they are and attributing them to whatever venom and sarcasm I can muster for limiting Back-Bench reasons or causes come to mind. We really do not know contributions down to what is now more likely to be the reasons and causes, but we can learn from history a shopping list than a speech; so I had better get on about what happened in the prawn fishery before and with it. see that the years after were successful years. I praise the Minister and all concerned for the passing With a 30 per cent. by-catch of cod, haddock and of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009—an excellent whiting in some prawn fisheries, fishermen’s leaders feel example of how well we can legislate. that the haddock should be removed from that category, I urge the recreational angling sector to participate in because stocks of haddock are so good. The haddock the excellent “Your Seas, Your Voice” campaign, which fishery is in a very healthy position. John Hermse of it was my privilege to launch the other week in Westminster. Mallaig and North-West Fishermen’s Association echoed It seeks public and stakeholder involvement in the that point. He would like some help to be given to the identification of these important marine conservation prawn fishery, which is experiencing some difficulty, zones. It is important that all stakeholders contribute to with a 15 per cent. increase in megrim and a 30 per cent. ensuring that we have conservation zones in the right increase in monkfish, to help make the fishery pay for places for the right objectives. those fishermen. This issue is highlighted in an e-mail I was sent earlier today from the fishing vessel Astra in The Minister will have heard me say this before, but I Stornoway. Given the limited time available, I will spare would like to press him on the new IFCAs—inshore the House from having the e-mail read out, but it fisheries and conservation authorities—and ensure that underlines the points made by Mallaig and North-West. sea angling is properly represented on them, as it was I will of course make the contents of the e-mail available woefully under-represented on the old sea fisheries to the Minister if he would like to read it. committees. I thank the hon. Member for Leominster (Bill Wiggin) Mallaig and North-West also made an important for his support for the Angling Trust. It is true that I point about the continuing catch of dogfish. At one launched it in January and that he was in the audience. I time, these fish were caught and landed, but because of was pleased to see him there. For the first time, the the bureaucratic drop in quota they are now caught Angling Trust has got its act together for the world of and discarded. If that issue could be looked at, it would recreational angling and has actually produced a briefing avoid the wastage of good food being thrown over the for Members of Parliament—100 years too late, but a side. new first. Many of us will be thankful for that. Will the Minister also look at the tagging of nets? It is In exchanges on the Marine and Coastal Access Bill, very annoying to fishermen when their boats are boarded the Minister gave a commitment to revisit the appalling and time is wasted while the inspectors check their nets; decision of his predecessor on bass minimum landing they might already have been checked in the very recent sizes. I would like some timetable from him as to when past. They could be easily be tagged to indicate that that decision is to be reviewed. Alongside the Marine they had been looked at recently, so the lads can get and Coastal Access Bill, we have finally seen the back to their fishing. implementation of the salmon and freshwater fisheries On a lateral issue, I would like the Minister to consider review. New fish removal byelaws are being put in place Filipino fishermen, who are a welcome addition on the and special measures are being taken to protect freshwater west coast. They are liked, wanted and needed there. eels, which are fast becoming an endangered species. I have been in talks with the Filipino ambassador about Separately, we have seen fish passage regulations and this. I hope that the Minister can use his position in regulations in respect of hydropower to ensure that government to impress on the UK Border Agency migrating fish can make their passage up river to the just how important these fishermen are. The immigration spawning grounds—an issue to which I shall shortly Minister was helpful earlier in the year in ensuring an return. extension when there was a threat of having some of Secondly, it was my privilege to participate in the these fishermen removed from the country, but the launch of the Our Rivers campaign, with which the immigration advisory council has delayed re-categorisation, hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) was also so we still need a bridging period until this matter can involved. It was a joint initiative from the Royal Society be sorted out. I hope the Minister will ensure that if any for the Protection of Birds, the Angling Trust and the fishermen return to the Faroes for the Christmas WWF. That campaign highlights the fact that we are period, they will be allowed to come back. This issue likely to miss dramatically the target that we need to also affects the processing sector; if these fishermen meet under the water framework directive, which is for are not there to catch the fish, there will be no jobs in the majority of our rivers to have a good ecological the processing sector, because the boats will tie up status. At present only 20 per cent. of them have that without them. status. There has been severe criticism of the 11 regional 1071 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1072

[Martin Salter] it should not be used as a pawn in some wider game with Norway. I have observed with some frustration the management plans presented by the Environment Agency. breakdown in international co-operation in that regard, There has been a lack of effective stakeholder engagement which has seemed simply to disappear. and a lack of ambition. Those points were teased out in The Minister will recall discussions last year about an Adjournment debate initiated by the hon. Member haddock. That remains a problem for fishermen on the for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) on 13 May. west coast of Scotland, particularly on Orkney, and it I share part of the River Kennet with the hon. seems that we are still far from a solution. However, the Member for Newbury. We have seen increased turbidity situation relating to the west coast quota will be greatly in the river as a result of the opening of the Kennet and ameliorated if the Minister is able to preserve for the Avon canal, increased abstraction as a result of increased EU the 65 per cent. allocation of the total allowable demand, point source pollution, and a prevalence of catch of haddock around Rockall that we currently invasive species such as signal crayfish, which are decimating enjoy. Of course, that should never have been put beyond fish stocks. Some crayfish will actually lie under the EU waters. It is nonsensical that haddock and other vent of a spawning fish, eating the eggs as they emerge deep-water species are not party to EU waters, but that and thus preventing all opportunities for the recruitment is an issue for another day. of new fish. The fishermen whom I represent are particularly I was disappointed by Ofwat’s draft determination, concerned about the effect of the 90 per cent. cod quota and also by the marginally better final determination uptake. When fishermen hit the 90 per cent. allocation, that was published last week. I made serious criticisms they are required to start using separator gear. That of Ofwat—particularly in respect of the Thames Water means that they now cannot fish the last 10 per cent.—they region—for failing to take account of the need for are unable to fish up to the full quota. That may be a continuing increased investment in dealing with waste technical point, but I hope the Minister will accept that water and sewage and tackling leakage, and, incredibly, it is important and take it to the negotiating table. failing to address the necessity of examining the impacts On the shopping list, may I draw to the attention of of climate change. It is true that Ofwat has allowed the House the importance of megrim? When I first some significant investment. The Thames Tideway tunnel started taking part in these debates some eight years will make a major contribution, and despite the half-witted ago, it was a species about which we hardly spoke at all, opposition of people such as Shaun Bailey and the if at all. It is now one of the most important North sea leader of Hammersmith and Fulham, Stephen Greenhalgh, species for the whitefish fleet. About 97 per cent. of the I believe it will make a radical difference. However, I catch in the North sea comes to the United Kingdom, worry about whether there will be sufficient investment and about 80 per cent. of it comes to Scotland, and just in the 300-odd smaller sewage works which have an about all of it is landed in Scotland. It has become impact on Thames tributaries, including the Kennet. enormously important, and it is deserving of a degree The current situation is ludicrous. On the one hand, of attention this year—and, I am sure, in years to we are seeking to ensure that migratory fish can run the come—that it has not, perhaps, had in the past. May I rivers and reach the spawning grounds. On the other, also remind the Minister of the importance of monkfish? Natural England talks of reintroducing the beaver, the Brevitatis causa, I ask him to take on board my comments one creature which, by creating dams, will ensure that on that subject in previous fishing debates. all our legislation on fish passes becomes absolutely We are now entering one of the most important worthless. If we really have to introduce endangered phases of the coming years, as we look towards the species, why do we not take the DNA of Tyrannosaurus reform of the common fisheries policy. As the Minister Rex or the wolf and bring them back to Britain? There knows, I have a concern that while the Green Paper’s must come a point at which reality impinges on what analysis of the problem is welcome, it does not seem to Natural England— accept the Commission’s central role in creating that problem. In particular, I have a concern that the Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. Commission seems to think that overcapacity is universal There must come another point as well. throughout the European Union, but it is not; the Scottish fleet, and in particular the Scottish whitefish fleet, have already experienced drastic decommissioning. 9.37 pm We must be given the fullest possible credit for that as Mr. Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD): we go forward in the reform process. Like other Members, I am conscious of the time, so I shall restrict my remarks to a shopping list consisting of 9.42 pm a few items. It is unfortunate that we have to do so, because there are bigger issues at stake which deserve Mr. Gary Streeter (South-West Devon) (Con): I can the time of the House. It is nothing short of scandalous also be mercifully brief. I simply want to make three that we are not able to give them proper ventilation. representations on behalf of the fishermen of the far As the Minister prepares for the European Union south-west, who see the reform of the common fisheries Norway talks, and subsequently the December Council, policy as an opportunity to put in place a far better let me impress on him again the importance of preserving system for preserving fish stocks and supporting our the mackerel allocation that we currently enjoy. The fishing industry. pelagic fleet is of supreme importance to communities On discards, I have already mentioned the voluntary such as Shetland which are highly dependent on fishing. trial that is taking place among several trawlermen The mackerel is probably the single most important operating out of the west country. They are experimenting element of the species available to those fishermen, and with mesh sizes and changing gear so that fish they are 1073 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1074 not seeking to catch have an opportunity to be released Underwater camera surveys show a stable population—in before the nets come to the surface. As I have mentioned, fact, they have shown a significant increase in the Irish early results show a 60 per cent. reduction in discards. sea in 2009. This year’s catches have broken all records, The fishermen are doing this voluntarily, and they say yet the Commission has proposed a 30 per cent. reduction that they would like more such schemes to be developed in the quota, following a 17 per cent. increase three in future. However, there needs to be an incentive in the years ago. Of course the question we ask is, why? form of some kind of enhanced quota when such The Minister needs to be aware—he certainly has cutting-edge measures are being introduced. I hope the been made aware—of the social and economic Minister will take that on board in his negotiations with consequences if any of those cuts are agreed. I agree our European Union counterparts. with the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. McGrady) My second point is about the quota system. It currently on this. The County Down coast in Northern Ireland is runs rigidly from 1 January to 31 December. My local home to the commercial industry, and Kilkeel is the fishermen tell me that far greater advantage could be largest of the fishing ports, being a town of about won by having a more flexible system, such as the 6,500 people. Some 12 months ago it had three major system for milk quotas, where both surpluses and amounts employers, but unfortunately two of those have seen a not yet used can be carried forward for at least one year dramatic collapse in their business because of the economic over the 31 December deadline—the expression they slowdown, resulting in hundreds of jobs being lost. The have used is banking and borrowing. I hope the Minister fishing industry is, thus, vital. Fishing is a traditional, will take that on board, because in future there must be locally owned industry and it is the last bastion of a more flexible system than we have had in the past. employment in Kilkeel and the other communities in Thirdly, as we have heard, good science makes for the area, and if the December Fisheries Council agrees successful quotas. We need more scientists to go out on to any reduction in the prawn quota, that last bastion of board the boats and more accurate surveying to be employment will fall. That would be disastrous for the done, so the science and the fishermen interact more economic well-being of those communities, so I beg the closely. I support the introduction of marine coastal Minister to ensure that that is not allowed to happen. zones; they are an excellent way forward. However, He knows that he has the entire Northern Ireland team there needs to be full engagement and proper consultation behind him: the Minister in the Department of Agriculture with the fishing industry. I am sure the Minister intends and Rural Development, her officials, the fisheries scientists, that to take place. and the entire industry. Following a recent debate in the Assembly, everyone, including all those from Northern In the past, we have had a top-down, bureaucratic, Ireland in this House, oppose any reduction in the heavy-handed EU system that, frankly, has delivered prawn quota. As far as we are concerned, this is a red the worst of all worlds: the devastation of our fishing line issue for Northern Ireland. industry, while not really preserving our fish stocks. The Let us consider other issues briefly. I know that the future must be all about flexibility and devolved decision Minister has acknowledged to industry representatives making, and it will certainly include technical means to that when he signed up to the long-term cod recovery reduce discards with a benefit to fishermen, banking plan on 19 November 2008 the plan was flawed, and in and borrowing, and better science to get quotas right. the intervening 12 months, even more flaws have been In short, we need to trust the fishermen and build a identified. That, unfortunately, is an expensive mistake, partnership with them. with which we are going to have to live for another two years. The proposed quota reductions in respect of 9.45 pm whiting and sole are disappointing, and greater scientific emphasis needs to be put on the impact of other factors Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I was affecting fish population. delighted to learn that on 12 August this Minister was the first UK Fisheries Minister to visit Northern Ireland In the midst of all this, it is good to have some in more than 10 years. I can assure him that he was very positive news from the Irish sea. A roll-over of the welcome. He heard for himself that the Irish sea fishermen haddock quota is good news, as is the proposed 15 per consider themselves to be the poor relations of fishermen cent. increase in the plaice quota. The latest scientific from other parts of the United Kingdom. I understand report advocating a 15 per cent. increase in the Irish sea that he was told in no uncertain terms when he visited herring quota must be pursued with vigour and a quota Portavogie that issues concerning the Irish sea should increase must be ensured. We wish the Minister well in be at the top of the UK fisheries team’s agenda for this his deliberations and I can assure him that he has the autumn’s negotiations. The increases in the cod quota support of Members from Northern Ireland. I trust in the North sea are good news for fishermen based in that he will bat for our industry and its survival in other parts of the UK, and are of course welcome, but Northern Ireland. what are the proposals for 2010 in respect of the Irish sea? I think that they are unjustified proposals made by 9.49 pm Europe that will have an impact on Northern Ireland’s Mr. Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD): We are almost fishermen. at the last-chance saloon and we have to get common I wish to discuss the proposal for area 7 prawns. One fisheries policy reform right this time—it is almost matter that has frustrated me over the years has been certainly the last chance for fish and for fishermen. I the disagreement between fishermen and fisheries scientists wish to echo the consensus across both sides of the about the state of fish stocks in the Irish sea. Yet I am House about the need to move away from the centralised delighted to learn that on prawns there is complete system of decision making by the Commission in Brussels agreement between fishermen, fisheries scientists and and towards a decentralised system based on regional officials; prawns are described as being fished “sustainably”. management committees. Such committees would involve 1075 Fisheries1 DECEMBER 2009 Fisheries 1076

[Mr. Alan Reid] McDermotts restaurant in Croydon is one of the best fish restaurants in the south-east, and we also have the fishermen, scientists and fishery managers from the convenience of Top Fries. That may seem whimsical, member states. Only by decentralising decisions down but it is important to recognise that the fishing industry’s to the lower level will we ever get a system that sustains impact goes all the way down to the high street, because both fish and fishermen. it helps to keep the lights on in retail district centres. In the short time available to me, I want to raise some We need to adopt a more radical approach to fishing of the issues that concern my constituents. In the waters policy. As the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar off Argyll and Bute, nephrops are by far the main (Mr. MacNeil) said, we need a system based on effort species that are caught. Of immediate concern to local and not on the quotas that are so destructive. My fishermen are the Commission’s proposals for year-on-year suggestion is for a rather more dirigiste approach—a cuts in the days at sea of the nephrops fishery. If the vessel monitoring system in which all vessels carry restrictions come into effect, fishing will become unprofitable global positioning system technology so that the amount for many vessels. of time at sea can be restricted. Another possibility is Nephrops stocks have been shown to be stable and the introduction of an electronic auction system, with healthy over a long period of time, but the Commission’s operators buying the right to fish a given area for a set cod recovery plan and its concerns about cod by-catch number of hours. That might be a more aggressive and have serious implications for the nephrops fisheries. determined approach, but I believe that Croydon residents Those concerns are the reason why the Commission who see the ecological disaster that is taking place think wants year-on-year cuts in the days at sea spent by the that such strong intervention is needed. nephrops fleet. There is an exemption from the cuts in days at sea for 9.55 pm vessels whose catch is made up of less than 1.5 per cent. cod, but in practice fishing vessels have encountered Huw Irranca-Davies: I am surprised that I have so great difficulty in obtaining it. The Clyde Fishermen’s much time in which to speak. I will rattle though my Association has told me that many vessels have proven speech, and I apologise to the House if the opening observed data that show that their catches are made up Front-Bench contributions were too long. I, too, would of less than 1.5 per cent. cod, yet the Commission will have welcomed more time for the debate. not accept that evidence and exempt the vessels from I thank hon. Members for making thoughtful the days-at-sea restriction. contributions, as they always do in such debates. We The Commission is taking the approach that it will have covered CFP reform in all its myriad guises, and I allow exemptions from effort restrictions only if a Swedish welcome the common agreement in the House on the grid is fitted to the nephrops trawls. However, its insistence need for radical reform. I reiterate that the UK Government on the use of the Swedish grid does not take account of intend to continue to be right at the front end of that the measures already successfully employed to reduce reform. the cod by-catch to less than 1.5 per cent. The grid has I welcome the ideas that have been put forward. The also been shown to be dangerous to handle, especially common themes that we heard included the need to in bad weather, and trials have raised doubts about its move away from micro-management—I agree that it is effectiveness. absolutely bizarre that Ministers should sit into the Further reductions in days at sea would force many early hours making decisions on twine thickness—and vessels out of business, so it is important that the the requirement for fisheries’ involvement that is Minister and his Scottish counterpart make sure at the based on good evidence and good science. With the coming negotiations that the Swedish grid is done away continued support of hon. Members, I hope that we with and that agreement is reached with the Commission will be successful on some of those matters. so that there is a sustainable and transparent method of Many priorities have been suggested for the December measuring the 1.5 per cent. level. Unless exemptions are Council, just as there were many asks during my earlier gained, many fishermen in my constituency will go out meeting with fisheries representatives from the whole of of business. That is just one example of how centralised the UK. The EU-Norway negotiations will be important control in Brussels simply does not work. for mackerel, as well as wider issues. The negotiations I wish the Minister all the best at the Council, and will be far more difficult this year, but we will continue hope that he will negotiate a sensible way to measure to engage and fight hard on behalf of the UK’s interests, the 1.5 per cent. cod by-catch level. including the interests of the devolved Administrations. We have heard about the importance of the fleet to coastal communities and the divergent nature of our 9.53 pm fleet in communities. We have also reflected on the Mr. Andrew Pelling (Croydon, Central) (Ind): The importance of fisheries to processing and ancillary hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon) was right to industries. emphasise the Commission’s Green Paper which shows I must stress the need to work together. There is a the disaster that the fishing industry has become, with strong and effective working relationship among Ministers 88 per cent. of European stocks being fished beyond in the devolved Administrations and me, as the England their maximum sustainable yields. He was also right to and UK Fisheries Minister. When we work together say that it is important to look at these matters from the and speak with one voice on CFP reform and other consumer’s point of view and, given that I represent negotiations, the UK’s position is stronger. It is important Croydon, Central, I guess that that is the role that that we recognise that and ensure that we take that I am playing. approach at all times, as we do. 1077 Fisheries 1 DECEMBER 2009 1078

Good science and partnerships between science and Business without Debate fisheries are also important. As the weeks and months go by, I hope that we will have more ideas about how we can build on what is already being done well, including in the areas of hon. Members who have spoken. I talk SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE to fishermen, and I sent some a video message in the Motion made, past few days to congratulate them on the work that That— they were doing. (1) Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business) shall have effect for this Session with the following modifications, We have heard about the importance of the wide namely: remit for people on the sea, including recreational sea In paragraph (4) the word ‘eight’ shall be substituted for the anglers. We have also heard about the Marine and word ‘thirteen’ in line 42 and in paragraph (5) the word ‘fifth’ Coastal Access Act 2009, special areas of conservation shall be substituted for the word ‘eighth’ in line 44; and special protection areas, and the way to engage (2) Standing Order No. 90 (Second reading committees) shall wide interests on the ground, including with regard to have effect for this Session with the following modification, fisheries. Discards have also been discussed—we have namely: heard about many issues in the contributions of hon. In paragraph (2) the word ‘fifth’ shall be substituted for the Members, for which I thank them. word ‘eighth’ in line 21; and (3) Private Members’ Bills shall have precedence over Government We have largely sung from the same hymn sheet, but I business on 29 January; 5 and 26 February; 5 and 12 March; cannot conclude without drawing attention to several 23 and 30 April; and 7 May.—(Mr. Mudie.) discordant notes—I suspect that we are heading into the party political season—and I must correct some Hon. Members: Object. errors that were made. Unfortunately, although he made a good contribution, by and large, all the errors were in the speech by the hon. Member for Newbury (Mr. Benyon). PETITIONS The hon. Gentleman was factually incorrect by referring to the environmentally responsible fishing pilot scheme Use of Premises (Essex) as a stock assessment scheme. The ERF pilot was designed to provide evidence on the environmental and economic impact of segments of the onshore fleet—it 10 pm was not a stock assessment scheme. It has provided Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): Residents have a right hugely valuable data, and the findings will be published to enjoy their homes and environment in safety and in due course. The scheme was originally meant to run without fear. It would not be helpful for me to go into from 6 August 2008 until 15 August 2009. In July, I too much detail, but sadly an illegal brothel has been made the decision to extend the scheme with the existing established in a decent and respectable area in my participants. Fishermen were warned in July, however, constituency. that the scheme could close at any time, and we closed it because we had obtained sufficient evidence. The data Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): Order. were being analysed on an ongoing basis, and we knew I remind the hon. Gentleman that it is not in order to go that the participation catch levels were higher than into very much detail if he is to conform to the Standing anticipated. In the interests of sustainable fisheries, Orders of the House. I hope that the hon. Gentleman agrees that when a Minister recognises such a thing, he should stop a scheme. Bob Spink: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that Standing Orders indicate that a Member Let me correct the hon. Gentleman’s point about presenting a petition may speak for a short period, quota. Under the Hague preference, we gave some typically one to two minutes, and I do not intend to go quota to the under-10 metres and some to the over- further than that. 10 metres. Under the decommissioning scheme, however, it all went to the under-10s. He seemed to mix up latent Mr. Deputy Speaker: The point is that the hon. capacity and unused quota, which is important for Gentleman has an opportunity to describe the contents producers’ organisations and some of the over-10s. of the petition, rather than make a speech in relation They distribute that, including through swaps to the to it. under-10s, and it is important that there is such flexibility. The MMO has been fully engaged, and that process Bob Spink: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker; I shall will be a success. The unions regularly come through my try to do that. door. They will continue to do so, and I would hope Fortunately, the police and Mr. Lawman of the council that the hon. Gentleman would extend that invitation are seeking to deal with the matter, and I congratulate to them. I must congratulate him on summing up the them on their action to support and protect residents. Government’s achievements— I am grateful, too, to all the residents who have shown that they care about our community by signing the 10 pm petition, which will enable the authorities to end the Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)). abuse, because under section 17 of the relevant Act they need multiple complaints to apply for a court order. The petitioners deserve the support and protection of the House. 1079 Business without Debate1 DECEMBER 2009 Business without Debate 1080

[Bob Spink] intention of making these camps permanent; further declares that the traditional lands of these people are being colonised The petition states: and illegally occupied by the armed forces; further declares The Petition of residents of Carlton Drive and surrounding that it is suspected that thousands of Tamils who are not areas, accounted for are being detained incommunicado by the Declares that a property in Carlton Drive is being used as an Sri Lankan armed forces; further declares that the illegal brothel under the name A13 Bliss; that the Petitioners are perpetrators of war crimes and breaches of international deeply concerned about the impact of this activity in an otherwise law in Sri Lanka remain free from prosecution. quiet and respectable residential area, that they are further concerned The Petitioners therefore request that the House of about the danger and intimidation this brings to residents and young people in the area and that they welcome the actions of the Commons urges HM Government to press for the Council and police to investigate and deal with this matter under implementation of the following: the United Nations, the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and the so called Brothels Act 2007. International Red Cross and voluntary agencies must be The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons given full access to care for and protect the civilians in the implores the Government to encourage Castle Point Borough camps, and then help them to return to their traditional Council, Essex Police and HM Revenue and Customs, to take homeland in the north and east; a list of all those still urgent and tough action to immediately end the improper use of alive and in custody should be published, so that families the property in this otherwise quiet and respectable residential can stop searching for loved ones who are dead; any who area and take appropriate action against anyone who is breaking continue to be detained as alleged LTTE combatants the law. must be treated in accordance with the provisions of And the Petitioners remain, etc. international law, and urgently given access to legal [P000441] representation; accountability processes must be established to ensure that international aid is not diverted to purposes Sri Lanka other than those for which it was given; UN monitors must be given free access to all parts of the island; there 10.3 pm must be a full UN investigation into war crimes committed Mr. Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield) (Con): This is a during the war. petition from more than 300 of my constituents from And the Petitioners remain, etc.] Beaconsfield and other locations, who declare their [P000442] concern at the plight of more than 280,000 civilians displaced by the fighting in Sri Lanka. Badman Report (Birmingham, Yardley) The petition states: The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges HM Government to press for the implementation of the 10.4 pm following: the United Nations, International Red Cross and voluntary John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD): I was agencies must be given full access to care for and protect the impressed on Saturday by this petition, which came civilians in the camps, and then help them to return to their traditional homeland in the north and east; a list of all those still from people who share my concerns about the state alive and in custody should be published, so that families can stop wrongly intervening in family life. We may be seeing searching for loved ones who are dead; any who continue to be more such petitions. detained as alleged LTTE combatants must be treated in accordance The petition reads: with the provisions of international law, and urgently given access to legal representation; accountability processes must be established To the House of Commons. to ensure that international aid is not diverted to purposes other The Petition of persons resident in the Birmingham, Yardley than those for which it was given; UN monitors must be given free parliamentary constituency, access to all parts of the island; there must be a full UN investigation Declares that they are concerned about the recommendations into war crimes committed during the war. of the Badman Report, which suggests closer monitoring of Following is the full text of the petition: home educators, including a compulsory annual registration scheme and right of access to people’s homes for local authority officials; [ The Petition of constituents of Hon. Dominic Grieve MP further declares that the Petitioners believe the recommendations for Beaconsfield and others, are based on a review that was extremely rushed, failed to give due Declares that following the end of hostilities in Sri consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it Lanka as announced by President Mahinda Rajapakse, collected were sufficiently robust, and failed to take proper account more than 280,000 Tamil civilians, including at least of the existing legislative framework. 50,000 children, remain detained indefinitely in cramped, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons squalid military run camps in the north of the island in urges the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative breach of international law; further declares that there is measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of a severe lack of medical and humanitarian aid for the children educated at home in the absence of a thorough independent needs of these wounded malnourished and severely traumatised inquiry into the condition and future of elective home education war victims; further declares that with the current flooding, in England; but instead to take the steps necessary to ensure that spread of diseases and the onset of the Monsoon rains the the existing Elective Home Education Guidelines for Local Authorities conditions in these already dilapidated camps will worsen are properly implemented, learning from current best practice, in drastically resulting in further deaths; further declares all local authorities in England. that the detained Tamil people are being held against And the Petitioners remain, etc. their will, without any freedom of movement, with the [P000443] 1081 1 DECEMBER 2009 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale) 1082

Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale) push up the claimant count in Aylesbury by 1.5 per cent. I acknowledge up front that, in spite of that Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House devastating news last week about job losses, the rate of do now adjourn.—(Mr. Frank Roy.) unemployment in Aylesbury, though it has risen sharply during the last year, is below the national average. 10.6 pm However, to those employees who are directly affected, Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): I am grateful and to their families, that will be small comfort. What for the opportunity to bring before the House the makes the decision by Lloyds still more worrying is the impact on Aylesbury vale of job losses recently announced impact that it will have on plans to increase employment by the Lloyds Group. in Aylesbury and, more widely, in the Aylesbury Vale The Lloyds Group is by far the biggest private sector district in response to the Government’s plans for significant employer in my constituency or in the wider Aylesbury new housing in the area. vale district, which includes the parliamentary constituency In 2003, the Government identified Aylesbury vale as of Mr. Speaker in Buckingham. Last week, Lloyds part of the Milton Keynes and south midlands growth announced major job losses in Aylesbury. To some area. The district has to make provision for just over extent, this news was not surprising. Ever since Halifax- 27,000 new homes by 2026, and the great majority of Bank of Scotland—HBOS—was hit by the credit crisis that new development will have to be achieved through and forced to merge with Lloyds TSB, staff at the the expansion of the town of Aylesbury. Ever since the company, along with local business and political leaders, sustainable communities plan was published, Ministers have had to live with uncertainty. It was always clear have argued that they want growth involving new homes that that merger would lead to a review at some time of and new jobs. The current regional plan assumes that, office locations and, on top of that, the impact of what in the case of Aylesbury vale, there should be roughly is now the deepest and longest-lasting recession since one new job for each new home built, so a total of the second world war has clearly reinforced the pressure 21,000 to 22,000 new jobs will somehow have to be on Lloyds to cut costs dramatically. provided. Even so, last week’s news was shocking. The Lloyds In previous Adjournment debates about growth plans Group currently employs more than 1,000 people in for Aylesbury, I have said that even that provision is Aylesbury. Between now and April 2011, 810 full-time inadequate, given that in most households these days equivalent jobs will go. Of those posts, 570 will shift as both the man and the woman work. What is surely a consequence of a decision by Lloyds to concentrate its clear, however, is that the Government’s own declared operations in Edinburgh and Bristol, and a further 240 objective of building a sustainable community is not will be lost as a result of the decision by Equitable Life compatible with development that turns Aylesbury to move its contract for back office work from Lloyds to increasingly into a dormitory town, especially given its a different contractor, a decision which the chief executive relatively poor road infrastructure. We are already coping of Equitable Life explained to me was taken because of with significant traffic congestion problems, and in at a very significant saving he will be able to make on least one location in the town an air quality management behalf of Equitable Life policyholders by that change zone has been declared, because exhaust pollution breaches of contractor. what are regarded as safe levels under European law. When part-time workers are taken into account, the number of people directly affected will be larger than Aylesbury is already a net exporter of labour—to the that figure of 810 full-time equivalent posts, and of tune of roughly 20,000 people a day who travel somewhere course there is bound also to be a big knock-on effect else in order to work. Historically, its commercial growth on the wider local economy. Small and medium-sized has been a lot slower than that which will be needed to businesses in Aylesbury which supply goods and services deliver the more than 21,000 jobs that the Government to Lloyds or which rely for sales on custom from Lloyds envisage in their regional plan. In recent years, the employees, most particularly during the lunchtime, are take-up rate of office space in the town of Aylesbury going to suffer badly. has been less than 5,000 square metres a year, equating In addition, we know that the squeeze on public roughly to an additional 350 office jobs annually. Even sector spending already planned for in the Government’s if additional employment in other industrial sectors is published figures, and which will take place irrespective added to that office jobs total, the delivery of 21,000 or of which party forms the Government after the next more new jobs by 2026 implies for the next decade and a election, will lead to additional job losses in the town. half an industrial and commercial premises take-up More than 30 per cent. of jobs in Aylesbury vale district rate that is way beyond those levels. It is unrealistic to are in the public sector, mostly with Buckinghamshire expect that job creation on anything approaching that county council, Aylesbury Vale district council and scale can come from indigenous growth. Rather, we will Stoke Mandeville hospital. The county council is already have to attract inward investment from elsewhere in planning for about 500 job losses over the next couple Britain and from overseas—and on a scale that defies of years, and the Buckinghamshire Hospitals Trust, previous experience. which includes Stoke Mandeville, is implementing a I wish to make a further point about the local economy. programme of emergency savings to try to stay within Aylesbury is often seen as linked either to the Thames its budget for the current financial year. valley and the M40/M4 corridor area of the south-east Earlier today, representatives of the Buckinghamshire economy, or to Milton Keynes—or indeed to both. education and learning partnership, which works on However, when we analyse the structure of Aylesbury’s behalf of local business and education and training economy, we find that for a long time it has been less institutions, told me that the combined effect of the job developed and less high-tech than either the Thames losses at Lloyds and the county council alone would valley or Milton Keynes. It is also a town that has only a 1083 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale)1 DECEMBER 2009 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale) 1084

[Mr. David Lidington] of almost half Aylesbury’s original GAF budget for the next year and nearly 20 per cent. of the funding allocated very small number of big private sector employers. That over the entire three-year period. means that the loss of Lloyds as a major employer will As if to rub salt in the wound, Aylesbury vale then be even more keenly felt. did not receive any of this funding back through the One of my fears, which is shared by many local first round of the kick-start scheme, which was funded business and political leaders, is that despite the good out of the money that the Government had decided to things we can all point to in what is happening in the claw back. So Aylesbury lost out to other parts of the Aylesbury economy, most notably the opening of the country, yet still faced and continues to face a major Peter Jones enterprise centre earlier this year, the impact challenge of trying to deliver sustainable housing and of Lloyds very largely pulling out of the town will be to employment growth in the current, very difficult economic discourage other big employers from moving in. climate. If all or even part of the GAF funding originally allocated to Aylesbury vale but then clawed back were Locally, Buckinghamshire county council, Aylesbury now restored, those funds could be used to try to bring Vale district council, Aylesbury Vale Advantage— new jobs to the district. the local delivery vehicle, as the Minister knows—the Buckinghamshire economic and learning partnership Thirdly, poor links to the trunk road network are a and the South East England Development Agency are major disincentive for employers to locate in or close to working together to try to mitigate the impact of the the town. Local agencies are currently supporting a bid job losses announced last week and to provide help to the regional infrastructure fund to finance the proposed through the recession more generally. However, the eastern link road, a development that is essential to Government’s decision to designate Aylesbury as an Aylesbury’s ability to overcome the shortcomings in its area for significant new housing development means, in transport infrastructure and attract new business. If my view, that they have a clear responsibility to help. built, the link not only ought to ease congestion within the town, an important objective in itself, but would I want to list a number of ways in which I believe the unlock greater development potential and encourage Government might be able to offer assistance. I say more business investment in the Aylesbury area. straight away that I do not expect the Minister to be Fourthly, I would like the Government to accept the able to give a definite answer this evening, but I hope application made by Aylesbury Vale district council to that he will undertake to review the situation, to study be one of the pilot areas for the tax increment finance the menu that I offer him, and perhaps other options, scheme. If they want to demonstrate that they have and then to write to me in due course with his detailed joined up their programmes to support and assist the response. I accept, too, that there is little spare cash growth areas that Ministers themselves have chosen to floating around and that much Government money will designate, they should choose Aylesbury as one of the already have been allocated to particular programmes. I successful pilots. will therefore try to suggest ways in which relatively small sums of money—perhaps tweaks to existing Fifthly, the Government have just announced plans Government programmes—could be effected in ways to relocate many thousands of civil service jobs to that would make a significant difference locally. places outside London. Although I believe that the priority in my constituency should be to strengthen First, how do we help the 800-plus people who are private sector investment in Aylesbury, especially given going to lose their jobs, many of whom may have the imbalances in the local economy that I have described, worked continuously for Lloyds or for its predecessor I hope that Ministers will consider the town as a potential companies, HBOS and Equitable Life, for many years destination for any departmental relocations. and have no recent experience of having to go out and Sixthly and finally, inward investment is essential if search for work in the labour market? There are simply Aylesbury is to come near to providing the number of not sufficient local resources available to deal with the jobs necessary to support the residential development sheer scale of the job losses just announced. I would that the Government want. Access to key Government like the Government to allocate some of the funds bodies such as UK Trade & Investment, and a readiness already earmarked for the future jobs fund to give those by central Government Departments to promote Aylesbury people targeted and specific support to maximise their vale and its key commercial development sites, would individual employment potential and make it possible strengthen the efforts already being made at local and for them to continue to contribute to the local and the regional level to identify and attract potential new national economy. Local organisations estimate that investors. about £200,000 would be sufficient to provide the additional intensive support for those unemployed people that I hope that the Minister will understand the gravity would be needed over the next 18 months. of the Lloyds announcement, its impact on the economy of my constituency and the seriousness with which the Secondly, there are growth area funds. The Government matter is regarded across party political boundaries in have already budgeted for GAF to help to finance the Aylesbury. I hope that the Government will consider delivery of homes and jobs in designated growth areas, seriously the proposals that I and a number of local but so far Aylesbury vale has done badly out of that agencies are making. funding. Like all the other growth areas, Aylesbury vale had a sizeable proportion—just under £2 million—of 10.23 pm funding that the Government had provisionally allocated for next year withdrawn by the Department for The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Communities and Local Government in order to fund Innovation and Skills (Ian Lucas): First, I congratulate the so-called kick-start scheme for housing development. the hon. Member for Aylesbury (Mr. Lidington) on That clawback by the Department represented a reduction securing this debate on an important subject and on the 1085 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale)1 DECEMBER 2009 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale) 1086 way in which he has acted as a persuasive advocate on district council, Buckinghamshire county council, the behalf of his community. Many of us in Parliament local economic and learning partnership, Business Link, have of course experienced job losses in our communities the Learning and Skills Council, Lloyds Banking Group during the past 18 months to two years, and they are itself and, of course, Jobcentre Plus. That taskforce always profoundly to be regretted. They have a profound brings together all those national and local agencies, effect on people’s lives, and each individual is severely and will put in place a co-ordinated package of support, affected. He put across very strongly how his community tailored to suit the needs of the people affected. It will has been affected, and I thank him both for the tone in include workshops for all employees, looking at curriculum which he approached the matter and the constructive vitae writing and interview skills, skills checks and job way in which he made proposals to help his constituency search advice. Given what the hon. Gentleman has said, at this difficult time. I sympathise profoundly with his I am conscious that many of the people affected will not constituents, and I want to do all I can to assist. I shall have had to look for a job for a very long time. What is certainly examine his proposals closely. happening will be a profound shock to them, and it is The financial sector has of course been hit very hard important that they have assistance of the type I have indeed by the recession. Many people in it have lost mentioned in finding work. their jobs, and others are still very concerned about We will also provide support for those who may be their future. The job losses in Aylesbury are a reminder interested in becoming self-employed, as ever more that, for many employees, these are very difficult times. people are nowadays. As a result of changes in the local The Government have taken action in the past 18 months economy, areas such as Aylesbury will of course benefit to avert the collapse of the banks. We wanted to ensure from innovation among their populations. Many of the a strong, vibrant financial services sector in the future, people who lose their jobs in the redundancy will have with stronger and safer banks that are better able to advanced skills and will have much to offer, once they support the recovery. As the hon. Gentleman said, have the confidence and the assistance offered by those Lloyds Banking Group, along with other banks, has with specialist advice who will be available to help. The benefited from a range of taxpayer support. In particular, taskforce will also be organising recruitment days with the Government have a 43 per cent. stake in the bank, potential employers that offer jobs in similar sectors, as resulting from the sector-wide intervention in October well as offering job-matching with existing companies 2008. That percentage will be maintained by the and working to try to bring new companies to the town. Government’s subscribing to the Lloyds rights-issue Fortunately, Aylesbury has a relatively low level of later this month. unemployment—even in the context of Buckinghamshire, Government support for the banks is not unconditional. but certainly in the context of the national average. We have secured various commitments from Lloyds, That is, I stress again, small consolation to those individuals and from the Royal Bank of Scotland, which has also concerned. I understand that SEEDA has been keeping been a major beneficiary of taxpayer support. They the hon. Gentleman informed on progress. I am sure include commitments to increasing lending to businesses that he will keep a close eye on the development agency and home owners, to ensuring that customer charges and on all the other organisations that I mentioned, to are fair and transparent, and to deferring bonus payments. ensure that they are providing the type and level of Of course, I recognise that that action is small consolation support to which his constituents are entitled. to the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. He described his Partners in the south-east have a good and strong constituency as he alone knows it, and he described the history of responding quickly and positively to large-scale importance of the financial sector to his constituency redundancies. Similar local taskforces were set up to well. It was helpful to listen to his exposition. support those affected by job losses at Ford in Southampton We are of course, doing all we can to assist those who and at Vestas on the Isle of Wight. In the first six weeks are losing their jobs in the major job loss in the Aylesbury following the Vestas redundancies, 84 people found new area. It is worth pointing out that the timing of the jobs, 94 were in training and 157 had been helped redundancies will be phased; they will take place from through the action fund. I am sure that the people in mid-2010 until the end of 2011. In November 2008, we Aylesbury will also benefit from the experience that has expanded the Jobcentre Plus rapid response service to been built up. Unfortunately, we have had far more job offer support to every employer proposing 20 or more losses than any of us would have liked to have seen over redundancies. That service can help employers to support the past two years. their work force in difficult circumstances. Nationally, The withdrawal on such a scale of a flagship company more than 3,000 employers have used the service since will of course have a significant impact on Aylesbury, as last November, and we have invested £12 million in the it would on any community, but I am confident that service for 2009-10. there will be new opportunities in the area. SEEDA is In the south-east, the rapid response service has been working with the district and county councils to explore extended to cover every person facing redundancy, entitling and promote opportunities for continued economic growth them to extra support and, in some cases, funding. in the area. That will include providing assistance for Jobcentre Plus has been working with the South East local businesses with growth potential and securing new England Development Agency, the Learning and Skills inward investment. Council, the sector skills councils, the Government The hon. Gentleman referred to the growth programme office and other partners to develop a recovery plan for in Aylesbury. The plans for housing growth in this and major redundancies. other locations are, of course, long-term. They reflect In Aylesbury, I know that SEEDA has already convened existing needs for new housing as well as housing needs a local taskforce to provide assistance and advice for that will arise in the future, primarily as a result of those affected by the Lloyds Banking Group redundancies. demographic change. It is all the more important that SEEDA is working in partnership with Aylesbury Vale we plan for the future at these most difficult times, when 1087 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale)1 DECEMBER 2009 Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale) 1088

[Ian Lucas] ensure that they consider closely what specific help we can give to the Aylesbury area, in addition to the a significant job loss situation has been created, and general help I have already described. that we provide affordable housing in the Aylesbury and The situation is, of course, very difficult. I am sure Buckinghamshire area. The prosperity and future of that it is unusual for this scale of job losses to affect the the area will depend on growth within the local community community in the Aylesbury area. I am sure that it is a and within industry, because growth will provide resilient community and it is well represented by the employment and opportunities and will enable the hon. Gentleman. I will consider closely the constructive community to develop in a sustainable way. proposals that he has made and I will write to him shortly on those matters. I thank him for bringing to I was very taken by the points that the hon. Gentleman the House’s attention the position in Aylesbury and I made, and specifically by his constructive suggestions. look forward to working with him to try to assist his He kindly indicated at the outset that he did not expect constituents. me to give him too many early Christmas boxes at this stage, but I will certainly consider the points he made. Question put and agreed to. Some of them are not my Department’s responsibility, 10.34 pm but I will certainly relay them to my colleagues and House adjourned. 1WH 1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 2WH

motion 32, which talks about the negative effects of Westminster Hall student fees, particularly on poorer families and students, in that they discourage students from going to university, Tuesday 1 December 2009 which is a great loss to the country? It goes on to state “that there are alternative models of funding higher education, which do not involve top-up fees; and therefore calls on the [MR.JOE BENTON in the Chair] Government to publish full details of these alternatives to facilitate proper, informed debate and understanding before proceeding”. Higher Education Does he agree with that aim? Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting Mr. Rob Wilson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his be now adjourned.—(Steve McCabe.) question. Yes, I saw early-day motion 32 and I think that the important thing is that the review, because it is 9.30 am independent, takes a detailed look at the current system Mr. Rob Wilson (Reading, East) (Con): I want to and all the alternative systems, and then makes its begin, Mr. Benton, by saying what a pleasure it is recommendations. We should not try to prejudge that to serve under your chairmanship and how delighted I review at this stage. am to have secured this extremely important debate on the future of higher education. Along with the rest of Mr. Phil Willis (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD): the sector, I was extremely relieved when Lord Mandelson I congratulate the hon. Gentleman not only on securing finally announced the long-awaited review. After all, I the debate, but on the tone with which he has started it. had spent much of 2007, 2008 and 2009 calling for the I say that because he is quite right that higher education Government to get on with that review. is a crucial sector. As many people have said before, there is much to be Furthermore, does the hon. Gentleman agree that, proud of within our higher education sector. Its wider for us to have a proper debate in the lead-up to the influence is important to the ongoing success of the general election and so that we are not deluding people, British economy, its output is worth about £59 billion, it we should put our cards on the table as to our own sustains 700,000 jobs and in the financial year 2007-08 policies and make some proposals? If he agrees with the sector earned £23.4 billion. For every £1 million of that, will he, during this debate, make his own proposals, university output, a further £1.38 million is generated in which he would like others to consider alongside the other sectors via a multiplier effect, according to a proposals of the Government, the Liberal Democrats Universities UK report, so it is crucial that we do and perhaps even the Scottish nationalists? nothing to damage the sector’s ability to continue its strong economic performance and world-class reputation. Mr. Wilson: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his However, I wanted to secure the debate this morning question. The key is that we have this debate before and because I felt it important that Members of Parliament during the general election, and that everybody has should have an early opportunity to discuss and possibly their chance to have their say.Indeed, the Liberal Democrat influence the review process while it is still at its beginning. position is very confused, as he will know. The Liberal I have always felt that this matter is far too important to Democrat shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member for play politics with. Therefore, I hope that all parties will Twickenham (Dr. Cable), is saying that he wishes to cut get involved with the review to endeavour to make it student numbers and does not wish to abolish student work for the entire higher education sector. fees, and of course the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Stephen Williams) is saying something completely different, Since the review was announced, I have heard far too so it would be good if the Liberal Democrats arrived at many people—both students and vice-chancellors—say a firm position and debated from it during the general that a rise in student fees will be the inevitable outcome. election. Some students and parents are concluding that this independent review process is nothing more than a From my own time shadowing the— public relations exercise to justify a rise in student fees. I acknowledge that the actions taken by this Government Mr. Willis: What is the hon. Gentleman’s position? when they have conducted such consultations and reviews have led one to the conclusion that they perhaps arrived Mr. Wilson: I will come to that, if the hon. Gentleman at the answer before they had even asked the question. I will allow me to do so. sincerely hope that that is not the case with this review, From my own time shadowing the higher education and I do not believe that it is. brief, I know that vice-chancellors and universities have Indeed, it is absolutely critical for the reputation of a powerful voice in the corridors of power, which has Parliament and the Government of whichever persuasion been supplied by years of lobbying by their campaign who will be in power by mid-2010 that this review and groups. Although those voices sometimes compete with its recommendations are absolutely beyond reproach. each other, they are none the less very influential; one There must be no hint of any conspiracy to raise has only to look at the number of briefings that we all student fees. I know that we in the Conservative party received for this debate to realise the truth of that. will treat the review and its conclusions completely on However, I do not think that students will mind my their merits. saying that the student voice is not so clearly articulated. That is quite understandable, given that students have Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): I warmly congratulate less resources to commit and experience more difficulty the hon. Gentleman on bringing this very important in establishing continuity within their leadership and subject to the House at this time. Has he seen early-day organisation. 3WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 4WH

Several hon. Members rose— week. It is only right in a democratic society that we have such debates, as the hon. Member for Harrogate Mr. Wilson: I will give way shortly, if hon. and right and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis) mentioned. hon. Members will be patient. However, it is also important that any organisation Having said that, my former university, which I now that wishes to be part of an independent review process represent as its constituency MP, fortunately has a must not prejudge the outcome. It is critical that the first-class student union president and executive team review relies on the evidence and bases its recommendations in what is a very important year for students, and I purely on it. I know that the hon. Member for Oxford, know that they are doing their best to engage in this West and Abingdon (Dr. Harris), who speaks for the debate and provide a thoughtful and positive voice for Liberal Democrats, makes a big thing of evidence-based Reading university students. Of course, the National policy, and tuition fees is one area where that is exactly Union of Students does its utmost to articulate the what we should be using. entire student voice and it rightly has a big role to play Today’s debate provides the Minister with a good during the review. opportunity to explain in his own words why the democratic student voice is not currently welcome on the panel and Mr. Andrew Smith (Oxford, East) (Lab): I am grateful how he intends without it to ensure that the student to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I congratulate voice is effectively heard. That will be important to the him on securing this very important debate. Will he join review’s universal acceptance and overall success. me in congratulating the NUS on the effectiveness of its lobby a couple of weeks ago? I have certainly valued the Stephen Williams (Bristol, West) (LD): The review on contacts that I have had with student representatives tuition fees will report after the general election. It is from both Oxford university and Oxford Brookes university. commonly understood that its terms of reference and That lobby was extremely well organised and I think chairmanship were decided jointly, or that at least the that it has influenced the course of this very important Conservative party was consulted on that remit, so does discussion that we are having. the hon. Gentleman think that the Conservative party pressed for the NUS to be included in the review? Mr. Wilson: That is an important point. I have noticed that, over the past few years, the NUS has greatly Mr. Wilson: As the hon. Gentleman knows, I no improved its communications with Members of Parliament longer have party responsibilities on higher education, and its lobbying efforts, so I join the right hon. Gentleman but I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for in congratulating the NUS on its efforts in that regard. South Holland and The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) will be happy to provide an answer to that question later in the David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): debate. The Minister will be aware of the importance I I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and I place on that issue as I have raised it several times on the congratulate him, both on securing the debate and his Floor of the House and written to him about it. While measured opening remarks. However, are not students not wishing to pre-empt his reply in any way, I hope that extremely concerned that the higher education system, he treats the views of the student population of Reading rather than being an engine of social mobility, is starting and the NUS with the seriousness and respect they to entrench social inequality? For example, the social deserve. profile of those students who go into Russell group I would like to make a couple of further points on universities shows that fewer than one in six of them the review of tuition fees. I have already said that any comes from a family with a less-well-off background, recommendations on that matter must be evidence-based. although such families represent 50 per cent. of the Frankly, however, I am not completely satisfied that the population. That cannot be allowed to continue and current fees have been fully justified by universities. As I Lord Mandelson is right to look at the assessment travelled across the country while shadowing the HE procedures for those universities, is he not? brief, I felt that some students were being slightly short- changed by the quality of teaching and the support Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman makes a good and services at a number of our universities. Fees raised an valid point. I will address it later in my contribution, if additional £1.3 billion for universities, but I am not sure he will be just a little patient. that I have seen a £1.3 billion improvement and investment I do not think it sensible for the Government to in the student experience. Perhaps the Minister will say exclude the democratic student voice from the independent that that was never the intention of the fees, but we need panel involved in the review. Having a former chairman that on the record. of the British Youth Council on that panel is welcome, Although comprehensive figures for student debt are but it appears to some people to be window dressing still unavailable for the most recent student intake, and is simply not sufficiently persuasive for those who several figures have been published that make sobering doubt the Government’s intentions in announcing the reading. A 2007 survey by Push.co.uk estimated that review. students commencing studies in 2006-07 could expect The Minister will be aware of early-day motion 1085, to owe an average of £17,500 on graduation, while which calls for proper student representation during the those starting in 2007-08 could see their average debt review. As fee-paying customers, it is only right that increase to £21,500, and medical students, who have students have their say, and as I said to the right hon. lobbied me for the debate, of course have much higher Member for Oxford, East (Mr. Smith), I applaud the debts. Before any Government consider burdening our NUS for its efforts to make itself heard. Reading university young people with even more debt, it is imperative that students union has also taken the lead on this issue, the review justifies how the previous fee money has hosting a debate in conjunction with the NUS the other been spent. 5WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 6WH

If the review recommends a further rise, based on the model for the Government in how to avoid fees pricing evidence, I would like two further conditions to be out ordinary working-class students from the best satisfied: disadvantaged students must be better off and universities. ordinary hard-working families no worse off, and all students should receive a markedly enhanced student Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman shows enormous experience. pride in his local university, which is as it should be, but There is one further consideration. The student loans the answer to his question about which model the method of financing higher education is far from cost-free Government should use should really come from the to the taxpayer. Any raising of the cap under the Minister, rather than from me. current system will require additional subsidy from the Although fees constitute a major part of the review, Treasury, which is already subsidising student loans to other important factors must be addressed over the the tune of about £700 million a year. The Minister’s coming months. One such factor is access to higher departmental projections confirm that, at the current education, or widening participation, as it has become rate, that subsidy is likely to rise to £782 million in 2010. known. In July, a panel led by the right hon. Member With the national debt and the country’s finances in for Darlington (Mr. Milburn) reported that the Government such a terrible mess, is lifting the cap financially sustainable? have failed to help people from disadvantaged backgrounds I am not yet convinced that it is. Figures I have obtained to get to university and pursue elite careers. It found from the House of Commons Library show that increasing that fees to an average of £5,000 would increase annual “the UK’s professions have become more, not less, socially exclusive Government subsidy to around £1.25 billion in 2015, over time”, and just over £1.3 billion in 2020. However, if the cap rose to £7,000, the figure could rise to an astonishing with 75 per cent. of judges and 45 per cent. of top civil £1.85 billion by 2020. The cost to the Treasury of servants having been privately educated. student support in 2010, including grants, is projected The issue of social mobility gathered pace over the to be around £2.6 billion. past week, following Lord Mandelson’s comments about Of course, I use those figures with caution as examples admission to top universities such as Oxford and to illustrate my point, but in the light of the need for Cambridge. He said that instead of relying on A-levels transparency in the review it is important that the and exam results, universities should also take account Minister is open and honest about all the potential of “contextual data”, such as an applicant’s school or implications. In these times of economic struggle, can home neighbourhood. the Treasury afford to keep raising the subsidy it provides However, in talking about access to Oxbridge, Lord to student loans? At the least, the review will have to Mandelson was wading into dangerous waters by reigniting justify that huge taxpayer subsidy to the Treasury if it the argument about social engineering. For example, his recommends a rise in fees. comments were translated by one newspaper into the I do not want the debate to concentrate only on fees. following headline: “Middle class students face university The review’s official remit is to place struggle as Mandelson backs giving poorer students “analyse the challenges and opportunities facing higher education, two-grade ‘head start’”. Yet both Oxford and Cambridge and their implications for student financing and support”, have set tough targets for the proportion of pupils they taking into account will take from state schools by 2011—Oxford’s is currently 62 per cent. and Cambridge’s is between 60 and 63 per “the goal of widening participation, affordability and the… cent. Although that is an important and admirable simplification of the student support system.” attempt to widen participation, we must be careful when setting top-down targets for admissions. Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and being so generous I believe absolutely that more of our brightest students with his time. Does he agree that one of the problems is from state schools need to attend our best universities, that the university sector is not homogenous? There are but instead of simply imposing top-down targets, we now very different universities, some of which, particularly must ensure that young people are not put off from the new ones, have never managed to get on top of their applying to those universities in the first place. That is funding gap. If we are to look at the sector properly, we arguably a bigger barrier for many young people, and it must examine the differential roles of those differentiated often comes down to lack of aspiration in those around universities. them rather than in the young people themselves. In one of its excellent reports on widening participation, Mr. Wilson: The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent the Sutton Trust analysed entrance to Oxbridge by point. There is wide variation in the types of university individual school over the period 2002 to 2006. Interestingly, in the sector, but I think that that is a cause for celebration, although probably as expected, it found that only 30 schools, rather than concern. If we can get the review right, or less than 1 per cent. of the total, accounted for 15 per there will, as he said, be room for all types of university cent. of all Oxbridge entrants. Why do certain schools and that diversity will be celebrated, perhaps even more and not others succeed in securing their pupils Oxbridge than it is today. places? Careers advice has a crucial role to play. It is desperately lacking from the vast majority of state David Taylor: I would like to cite the example of the schools, where our brightest young people are simply university of Leicester, whose motto is “Elite without not pushed to apply to our top universities. being elitist”. It goes for the highest possible standards, Writing in The Guardian earlier this year, my hon. but the broadest possible intake of students, and it Friend the Member for Havant (Mr. Willetts), the shadow achieves that to a significant extent. That could be a Minister for universities, said: 7WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 8WH

[Mr. Rob Wilson] Oxford and Cambridge college tutors—not all, but many—have made a substantial commitment going back “Young people from more deprived backgrounds do not lack some decades to reach out as far as they can, but is not aspiration, but rather knowledge of the routes to realise it.” the real issue schools’ aspiration, as my hon. Friend As we have been stating for years and as the Milburn says, to ensure from the age of 14, 15 or 16 that the report reiterated, there is not much good to say about brightest children from deprived households see any the ailing Connexions service. The careers service in our university, let alone Oxbridge, as an option for them? schools has let down young people badly and contributed to a curtailment of social mobility. Mr. Wilson: My hon. Friend makes a good point, and The bottom line is that good information is vital to I agree wholeheartedly. As I have suggested, I do not improving university access. Young people need proper believe that the real problem lies with tutors or the support at every stage, from choosing appropriate A-levels outreach work done by Oxford and Cambridge. They to understanding student finance. I do not want to are trying very hard indeed to attract large numbers of generalise, but a substantial cultural change is necessary disadvantaged people through a series of programmes. in our schools if more bright young people from Unfortunately, that is not being reflected by activities in disadvantaged backgrounds are to apply to top universities some schools, such as those of the careers service. It is in the Russell group, for example. also partly to do with the fact that some teachers might An interesting report on applications and admissions have fewer aspirations for young people than those for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, young people have for themselves. Good advice would also by the Sutton Trust, highlights the problem. It certainly not go amiss within such schools. found that students from FE colleges were the least Mr. Willis: The hon. Gentleman is being incredibly likely to apply to top universities. There is clearly scope generous in giving way. That is what is good about for further investigation of the reasons why students debates such as this. from FE colleges do not apply to top universities in the In the spirit of the debate, may I say that when we quantities that might be expected. My party would talk about higher education, we always go on about tackle part of the widening participation agenda by Oxbridge and the Russell group, but the reality is that redirecting funding towards a substantially enhanced not enough young people from lower socio-economic independent careers service in every secondary school groups aspire to go to any university at all? That is the and college. However, teachers must also encourage challenge. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that although pupils with ability to apply to our best universities and we concentrate on a small group of elite universities not simply to assume that the best universities are for that, as we found when we investigated, are doing a the privileged or wealthy. They are not, and I am totally strong job of trying to get young people in—I do not convinced that they do not want to be. blame those universities—the challenge is getting youngsters to stay on at school after 16 and aspire to go to any Mr. Andrew Smith: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, university? That is why the FE sector delivering HE is who is being generous in giving way. I agree strongly crucial as part of that journey. with the point that he just made about the need for a culture shift and raised aspirations in secondary schools— Mr. Wilson: The Chairman of the Select Committee and, indeed, in primary schools—so that a far wider speaks with great knowledge and passion. I will come to range of children can reach the highest level. Does he exactly that point in a few minutes, but I must make agree that the efforts being made by Oxford colleges, as some progress now. I have been speaking for 25 minutes well as other universities, to reach out into poorer and I know that other Members want to speak, so I communities, including mentoring by students, can be would like to keep interventions down to a manageable an important force in creating such a culture shift? level. The review can play a major role in ensuring that all Mr. Wilson: The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely able students—irrespective of background, postcode or correct. When I visited Cambridge, I saw a number of father’s profession—can attend university, including the outreach programmes. I was extremely impressed by very best university if that is their wish. that university’s mentoring programmes and the work it We cannot discuss widening participation without is doing to attract more young people from disadvantaged mentioning the importance of part-time learners, who backgrounds. The work being done in that respect at represent a significant proportion of the student body Oxford, Cambridge and other Russell group universities and have always been somewhat disadvantaged within is first-class. the system. Again, the review is a perfect opportunity to put right some of the wrongs that they have suffered. I Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) think that we would all agree that the artificial barrier (Con): Does my hon. Friend also recognise that mentoring between full-time and part-time students is unacceptable has been around for some considerable time during the in a modern, diverse and accessible higher education 25 years since I went up to Oxford? I went to the same system. Staffordshire university’s vice-chancellor, Christine school as the right hon. Member for Oxford, East King, has undertaken useful work on the matter, and I (Mr. Smith). He, of course, was the black sheep of the hope that it will be taken into account during the family, having gone to grammar school and ending up a coming months as the review progresses. Labour Member of Parliament. However, the serious In light of the changing student demographic, the point is that we were lucky to have been at a state school review should also consider the higher education taught with a tradition of sending a number of boys to Oxford in further education colleges. The benefits of such provision every year. Twenty-five years on, the number is considerably include local access, wider participation and affordability. larger than when we were there. What is most important is enabling people to access 9WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 10WH education in a way and at a pace that are right for them. for users. It may well be worth considering the merits of That means more HE taught in further education colleges a national bursary system, for example. and more part-time, distance and modular learning. In coming to informed conclusions about the student For that reason, as the Minister will be aware, I have finance mix, the review should consider all potential long advocated that the UK take note of the US community options. That should of course include the call from the college model of higher education. Such colleges provide NUS for a graduate tax. Clearly, there are issues with access to higher learning for millions of students and, a that, as the cost of pump-priming such a solution may bit like the UK’s further education sector, have a higher be well beyond anything the country can afford in the proportion of entrants from lower socio-economic groups. current circumstances, but it is essential that the review Although I do not wish to use my time today to plug considers all possible solutions for student financing. the American education system, several things of relevance I intended to round off my remarks with a few to the review are worth noting. First, the US system is comments on employability, but I am conscious that a based on credit, enabling people to drop in and out of number of hon. Members want to speak. I shall simply study as their lives dictate. The career ladder is rightly say that it is important for organisations with an interest viewed as a career lattice, and students can accumulate in this issue to make their feelings clear during the credit until they are ready and able to transfer to a coming months if they want to have a chance to influence traditional university to complete their degree. I do not the review. Such windows do not open for long, and for see why a progressive sector such as the UK’s should the first time in years the sector has a genuine opportunity not have comparable flexibility. I acknowledge that the to make real changes that will benefit the country both Government have moved in that direction by broadening socially and economically. foundation degrees, but much more could be done. I hope that by securing the debate and advancing my The second factor that impresses me is how networks views constructively, a dialogue has been started that of colleges pool their resources as part of articulation will result in a secure and, indeed, prosperous future for agreements. Some embryonic examples of that model higher education in this country. can be found in the UK, such as the Staffordshire university regional federation—a collection of FE colleges Mr. Joe Benton (in the Chair): Before I call the next affiliated to Staffordshire university. If we are to make speaker, may I point out that I propose to commence tough decisions about the sector’s financial future, sharing the winding-up speeches at 10.30? I call Mark Williams. backroom expenses could be one way to cut wasteful administrative costs. 10.3 am The third point about community colleges is their Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): It is a pleasure to engagement and integration with local businesses. The serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Benton. I pay model has proved so successful that funding is usually tribute to the hon. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) in thirds: one third from the Government or state, one for securing this important debate. I feel slightly like a third from the individual and one third from local Welsh interloper in an English debate, but I hope that as business. The emphasis on localised provision to meet I speak it will become apparent why some of the issues local business needs has helped to differentiate community raised by the hon. Gentleman are directly relevant to colleges from traditional US universities. The range of my constituents. work-based learning provision covers courses such as I represent two universities in Ceredigion, at Aberystwyth soft skills, customised job training, short intensive courses and Lampeter. Lampeter has now merged with Trinity and training for local businesses. College, Carmarthen. The universities are a source of According to the Association of Colleges, one third great pride to us and provide significant employment in of higher education places in colleges are often for the county. Approximately 18,000 students are enrolled adults seeking professional qualifications, with their at our two universities and, as the hon. Gentleman fees being paid by the employer. The higher education described, those students play a huge role in the local review should look to expand such provision and examine economy. The university of Lampeter has had a tough closely what is happening in the US. time in the last year or so with the merger. There has I believe, however, that true business collaboration been a great deal of pain; there have been job losses. will occur only when investing businesses have more say However, the merger was essential and I think that the in the course material within institutions. In recent worst is now over. The new vice-chancellor has a great months, business in this country has justifiably criticised vision for the way forward. the quality of the school leavers that our schools are There is hope. We have moved forward, thanks to the turning out, but it also needs to start putting more support given by the Higher Education Funding Council effort into supporting further and higher education so for Wales and the Assembly Government. I will not that the skills it needs are provided locally. stray into devolved matters, but I would like to place on As well as debating the contentious topic of the the record our appreciation for that support. Higher future level of fees, the review will, I understand, consider education in Wales is rightly devolved. The Minister for the whole financial package on offer to students. That Children, Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills, Jane package is confusing to young people at school, as I Hutt, is talking to the Select Committee on Welsh think the Youth Council found in a report published Affairs this morning and the Minister present for this earlier this year. The current system of local bursaries, debate will come to see us on Thursday. grants, loans and other financial assistance such as Last week, Jane Hutt made a statement about higher private sector input is confusing. That is particularly education in Wales. The point that I want to make is unhelpful to those disadvantaged groups that rely more that decisions here and the review that we have been on such financial assistance. I hope that the review hearing about have a direct impact on the Welsh higher makes recommendations that would simplify the system education sector as well. 11WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 12WH

[Mark Williams] need to expand the knowledge of advanced and technical Welsh, and the higher education sector is starting to Let me give some context for the higher education meet that need. sector in Wales and its importance to the Welsh economy. I am conscious of the time, but I want to touch on Its annual turnover is £1.1 billion and it brings a further one other important matter affecting Welsh institutions. £1.1 billion into the Welsh economy. The sector provides Concern has been expressed in Wales about the Secretary 33,000 jobs directly or indirectly to Wales, and 640,000 of State’s apparent intention to concentrate research jobs in the UK as a whole. It is fair to say that Wales funding on a few elite universities that can demonstrate punches above its weight in the higher education sector. world-class capability. I stand to be corrected if that is If anything, the sector is more important to the Welsh not the case, but it is the perception of what he has economy than it is to the English, because it involves a spoken about. Currently, of the £2.8 billion distributed larger proportion of gross domestic product. The Assembly by Research Councils UK, Wales receives about 3 per Government have placed renewed emphasis on growing cent. This is one of the rare areas where I would be the knowledge economy. Higher education is one of our pleased to see the Barnett formula applied. We have best sectors and we need to use that to our advantage. high-quality institutions that will continue to attract research funding, no matter what the situation, but I Cross-border implications are of fundamental hope that we are not moving to artificial control of the importance and need to be considered when policies are supply of research funding to certain favoured universities proposed, not least because Wales has the highest and departments, which could have a real and detrimental proportion of students coming from outside the country effect. What did the Secretary of State mean? Can the of any nation in the UK. We are having the review of Minister assure me that if quality bids are made, they fees. Such reviews and reviews of other higher education will not be prejudiced if they are not deemed by the structures can have significant effect on how Welsh Secretary of State to be from world-class departments? universities operate and their capacity to attract students. We need to keep the official lines of contact between the Research funding is hugely important. One case study Minister’s Department and his counterparts in Cardiff is the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Bay. That issue was raised in one of our previous Select Sciences, near Aberystwyth. It has received significant Committee reports. I am referring to the extent of that funding from the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences collaboration and the extent to which there is knowledge Research Council, which supports the institute. in the Minister’s Department of a separate structure in Wales. I would be grateful if he outlined the extent to David Taylor: Wales has some exceptional universities. which that dialogue is ongoing. My youngest daughter did her first degree at Aberystwyth and was very happy with that institution—the hon. I am a member of the Welsh Affairs Committee, and Gentleman’s own university. On finance, and research when we produced a report on cross-border higher finance in particular, surely the generous Barnett formula education we identified a number of areas for improvement. allows sufficient latitude to provide the extra funding The most stark was the £60 million funding gap between needed by the universities to which he refers. We in the Wales and England. The hon. Member for Stroud east midlands, with a population of 4.25 million compared (Mr. Drew) alluded to the funding differential between with 3 million in Wales, have substantially lower public institutions in England. There is a real funding gap expenditure per capita than that which the Barnett between Wales and England. I would be grateful if the formula allows for Wales. There is scope in it for the Minister at least acknowledged that divide, as it has a funding; the hon. Gentleman does not need extra resources. huge effect on us, not least because Wales has a strong record of attracting students from overseas to our colleges. Mark Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that We also noted the importance of further education and observation. I know that he knows my area well, but I the need for learners in some instances to cross the question the extent to which that latitude is there. That border. Again, that requires close collaboration between has not been the reality for research work in my constituency. the Governments in Westminster and Cardiff. The work of IBERS would be considered world class, We have heard about the importance of part-time perhaps more so, as a result of the merger between study. In a refreshing speech, the hon. Member for Aberystwyth university and the Institute of Grassland Reading, East alluded to the importance of part-time and Environmental Research, but there is a danger that education, including part-time degrees. Lampeter in my other growing and improving departments could miss constituency has been at the forefront of developing out on funding that would enable them to increase their models for part-time learning. Some 40 per cent. of the reputation. An element of competition is essential in students in Wales are studying part time. At Lampeter, research funding, but any perception that funding was 6,400 of the 7,800 students are part time—a huge sewn up for a favoured few would significantly damage proportion. Again, Liberal Democrat Members want our research base. to break down the divide in that respect. One recommendation in the Select Committee report was The higher education sector in Wales is an important driver of Welsh language provision. There are plans for “that DIUS makes available a specific allocation of research funds to develop the research capacity of HEIs outside the a federal college to be established in 2010. That will established elite to enable them to gain a track record of success make a major contribution to the development of the and so be able to compete more effectively for research funds Welsh language at a higher level, and it is being supported from other sources.” at the universities of Bangor and Aberystwyth. We have In other words, we need to prime those institutions for made great strides in improving knowledge of the Welsh the future. We also recommended that the Department language through primary education, but there is a for Innovation, Universities and Skills, as it then was, 13WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 14WH investigated why Wales does not appear to receive as issues to which the hon. Member for Ceredigion referred. high a proportion of research funding as we would Professor Antony Chapman and his team at UWIC do expect given its relative size. The Government were a tremendous job developing an international flavour lukewarm about those recommendations, but I hope and first-class courses, particularly MBA courses, which that the Minister looks at those matters again. I do not have grown out of recognition over the past few years. want to pre-empt the questioning, but he will certainly That role is an example of having an outside interest have questions on that subject on Thursday. We should in an area in which I did not have much experience. I not expect Wales necessarily to get a share based on was a businessman before I entered Parliament and, population, but we need to investigate whether there are obviously, representing my seat, as the Minister and institutional factors within the funding councils that are other hon. Members will recognise, most of my interest operating against Wales and whether they can be addressed. and expertise in the House is on economic and financial I shall conclude with a couple of examples of the matters. My interest in the college has opened my eyes work that IBERS is doing. It has just been awarded a to how higher education and quality higher education Queen’s anniversary prize for further and higher education operate. The London School of Commerce is an innovative for projects to develop plant types that are more resistant and leading college, the founding college of the Association to drought to combat climate change. It is doing pioneering of Independent Higher Education Providers, and it work on biofuels and has been at the forefront of focuses on best practice. developing cattle feeds that reduce methane. That is I wish to touch on visa issues, if I may. The college only a snapshot and I could certainly introduce an works closely with the Home Office, the British Council entire debate on the work of IBERS, as I have before. and visa control staff in our embassies abroad to ensure I want to make it clear that the research is extremely that, as far as possible, there is proper attendance—there worth while and useful work, and it is being done as a are strict guidelines on expected attendance. Through result of research funding, which is why we need to text messaging and state-of-the-art technology, it ensures continue to support Welsh research. that it keeps tabs on its students, particularly those with The Welsh higher education sector remains a hugely visas coming from abroad. Working with other colleges important part of our economy, and I urge the Minister will set a template that I know it will be proud of as time to reflect on the impact on the Welsh sector of any goes on. decisions that he takes and to continue to develop We face some problems. This year’s student visa strong relationships with his Welsh Assembly Government changes have left stranded many thousands of foreign counterparts. students who wanted to come to this country. I am pleased that by the end of the year we anticipate the results of an urgent review by the Home Office and 10.14 am the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on Mr. Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) the operation of the visa system. It is right to ensure (Con): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for that a proper visa system is in operation, but everyone Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) on introducing this important will accept that some hard cases have gone the wrong way. debate. Its focus, understandably, has been largely on A lot of colleges require money from international access and funding, as we heard from the hon. Member students. Let us face it: higher education is one of our for Ceredigion (Mark Williams). I want to add a few biggest international businesses and the visa issue has thoughts of my own. become a major problem. There are issues at stake here. I know well the constituency of my hon. Friend the We need to promote education. Some £1.5 billion a year Member for Reading, East as it includes the town I was is raised from overseas students, which inevitably helps brought up in. I was educated at the local grammar to cross-subsidise British students. In many ways, tuition school, Reading school, as I mentioned earlier. John fee levels cannot be discussed without considering the Weeds, the principal, does a fantastic job. When I was number of international students. there over three decades ago, it opened up a lot of I am lucky enough to represent a constituency that opportunities for a lot of people from relatively deprived takes in three of the finest of our global universities— backgrounds. I fear that its academic excellence, coupled Imperial college, the London School of Economics and with the fact that its catchment area is rather broader King’s college. I spoke with Sir Richard Sykes, then than it was in the 1970s and early 1980s when I was a rector of Imperial college, and he made it clear that to pupil, mean that it probably has more children from balance the books he had to take a lot of overseas middle-class, aspirational and professional backgrounds students. He felt that there was an obligation, which I than when I was there. It continues to have fantastic think applies to all our institutions, to ensure that we academic results. It is a beacon, and it is rare for it to also take our home-grown product and do not allow the slip outside the national top 10 state schools for academic desire—and, in many ways, the need—for funding to results. crowd out suitably qualified students, particularly at At this stage, I ought to declare an interest: I have postgraduate level and, to a lesser extent, at undergraduate spent the past almost five years as a member of the level from our institutions. However, we should not advisory committee of a private college called the London forget the importance of overseas students to our economy. School of Commerce. I do not know whether the Minister Not only do they bring in £1.5 billion in fees annually, has yet visited it, but his predecessor, the hon. Member but they spend about a further £2.5 billion off-campus for Harlow (Bill Rammell), who is now Minister of and have huge export earnings. State, Ministry of Defence, did. It has strong connections with the university of Wales institute, Cardiff, so I have Mark Williams: Of course this is about bringing been to Cardiff a number of times and am therefore money into our system, but does the hon. Gentleman aware of some of the funding and broad structural agree that it is also about building meaningful partnerships 15WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 16WH

[Mark Williams] beyond this country and of ensuring that we are a beacon throughout the world. We need to keep a close between institutions in this country and institutions eye on developments in this area, because they will abroad? I think of my example of Lampeter, with its provide a great opportunity not only in the next few Chinese students and Confucius institute, which is partly years, but in the decades to come. funded by the Chinese Government. That is an example If we can position ourselves, we will reap enormous of meaningful links between two countries. benefits, not least from the relationships that we will build institutionally and individually. As I said, one of Mr. Mark Field: I was just coming to that. The single the most important things that we can do is get some of most important issue here is that this group of relatively the brightest and best young Indian and Chinese young people will, we hope, go back to their own entrepreneurs of the future to spend a year or two in countries and become ambassadors for this country, or this country.That will provide some of our most important perhaps I should say these countries, given that I am links. As we know from people we met in our own speaking to the hon. Member for Ceredigion. undergraduate and student days, if we can get people at It is important that we build those links. As part of that stage, it can make a terrific difference to this my involvement with the London School of Commerce, country. I have been to Dhaka in Bangladesh and Kuala Lumpur I appreciate that I have spoken on a somewhat different in Malaysia, where there are two overseas colleges, both plane from the other two contributors to the debate, but of which are thriving and doing tremendously well. It is I think that we need to look at two issues. First, we need no secret that many of our top universities—even those to have a quality product. To be honest, there has been in the Russell group—are actively seeking connections some complacency in this country. As a graduate of with China and increasingly with India and other places Oxford, I certainly think that my alma mater has been in Asia as an important part of their growth. rather complacent about its place in international league tables. A huge number of American universities are In this country, we obviously have the benefit of gradually making more and more progress in many of speaking the lingua franca—English—which is vital in the international research tables, not least because they attracting students to these shores. We also have an benefit from huge alumni funding and can attract some internationally respected system. We must pay some of the brightest and best students and academics. However, tribute to this Government, although I hope that the we have some tremendous universities, and a positive same will apply to past and future Governments, for the comparison can certainly be made between their positions fact that we have a rigorous examination system and a in world tables and those of other European universities. rigorous inspection system for our higher education product, which means that that product remains a great None the less, we need a much more global outlook. success. One needs only to look at the technology colleges and technology universities in India going back to the time We need to look at other countries, particularly the of Nehru to see that they remain strong competitors. In United States and Australia, which have a tremendous a couple of decades, some of the best operators among track record in higher education. Again, that is appealing the Chinese universities will also be global players. In because they speak English. We should recognise that terms of the quality product on which we will look to we are talking about an important growth industry: base our international appeal, therefore, this is and will 20 million people a year are being added to the ranks of remain a very competitive world. the middle classes in China and India, so there is a tremendous opportunity for some of the brightest and We also have to look at the issue of quantity; we the best to do postgraduate and, on occasion, even should not shy away from that. Obviously, there will be undergraduate courses here. This is an important market funding issues. One complaint is that some of our and we should be looking to plug into it. universities have put too much effort into getting bums on seats and filling courses, almost regardless of the I say that not least because, in the light of the credit quality of the product provided. However, the reality is crunch and the financial crisis, I have all too often given that more and more people will want to go to university speeches in the past couple of years saying that we and will recognise the benefits of a university education cannot and should not be overly reliant on the financial as not only this country but the world becomes more services industry in the years to come. Everyone recognises middle class in its aspirations and outlook. the need to achieve a balance of business. That is not to say that we should not admire our world-beating financial That is not to take away from the debate that has services industry, but it would be unwise to become taken place about access, which is important, but it is overly reliant on it, as we have perhaps done in recent vital for our quantity product that we look at some of years, particularly in the tax income that comes from it. this country’s competitive advantages on the higher education scene. We will not necessarily need a heavy We must look at other industries that will be sources touch from the Government, although much of our of great strength, and those include the creative industries, testing and regulation stand us in good stead. Degree- environmental technologies and education. Calling awarding status should not be watered down for the education an industry may make one or two vice-chancellors sake of it, because we want to ensure that our degree- quake—it is and remains a profession—but it provides awarding bodies set something of a gold standard in the an important overseas service and we should recognise international world of education. its great importance. I have had an opportunity to speak for rather longer One of the most encouraging aspects of my relatively than I thought I would. Hon. Members who have been limited experience in this field is that when I speak to able to make contributions feel passionately about this vice-chancellors and other leading lights in the universities, issue and higher education is an important aspect of they recognise the importance of broadening their horizons this country’s expertise. I thank my hon. Friend the 17WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 18WH

Member for Reading, East for his contribution and an arbitrary target has never been a key part of that. look forward to what the Minister has to say about [Interruption.] The Minister is chuntering from his whatIamsureisaverymuchaworkinprogress, seat, but what is more important—an Opposition party although we will no doubt return to these debates in the that honestly says that an arbitrary target is not the way months and years ahead, as higher education maintains forward, or a Government who for a decade have clung its importance in the British economy. to a target that they were meant to achieve by 2010, which starts in 31 days’ time, but that they have no hope of achieving? They still say that that target is incredibly 10.27 am important. Stephen Williams (Bristol, West) (LD): I congratulate Now, in the framework announcement of just a month the hon. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) on ago, we have a new target of 75 per cent. of people securing a debate on such an important topic. He has achieving level 3 and above; no doubt that is to obscure been a Conservative higher education spokesperson the fact that the existing target has not been met and and served on Select Committees alongside me for a has no hope of being met in the foreseeable future. couple of years, so I know that he has a long interest in these matters. Now, however, he is safely ensconced in Mr. Rob Wilson rose— the Conservative Whips Office. He said that the views that he expressed were essentially his own, although I assume that they were not too out of tune with those of Stephen Williams: What is really important is what his party or his Front-Bench spokesmen. the hon. Member for Reading, East focused on in a large part of his speech—not the volume of people who It is good to have a debate on this important issue, go to higher education, but who goes to higher education. because in the run-up to the general election it is a worry that the Government and the Conservative party should be determined to stifle debate on the future of Mr. Wilson: Will the hon. Gentleman clear something higher education and will deny voters at the election a up for me? Does he agree with the Liberal Democrat clear opportunity to distinguish between the two political Treasury spokesman, the hon. Member for Twickenham parties. My party is absolutely determined that higher (Dr. Cable), that the Liberal Democrats should cut the education will be high on the agenda at the election. number of young people who can go to university? Higher education is crucial to the future of the British Stephen Williams: My hon. Friend has not said that economy.If we are to compete in the world, the knowledge- we should cut the number of people going to university, based economy will be crucial. The hon. Member for but simply reiterated the position that I have made Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) rightly abundantly clear on many occasions: we do not support said that if we are to compete, particularly against the and have never supported the 50 per cent. target. However, emerging economies of China and India, it will be on we do agree that there is a big problem with the social the basis of quality, not volume. People around the divide in higher education and with who has access to a world look to the quality of British higher education, high-quality higher education. That is why at the next which already gives us the second largest share of the general election one of our key pledges is for a pupil international market in higher education. premium, so that disadvantaged children are not left The hon. Gentleman also rightly drew attention to behind their classmates and are able to succeed at 16, to much concern in the sector about the tough regime stay on at 16 and to have the opportunity to participate introduced by the Home Office to control student numbers. in higher education. The logical outcome of that policy It is important that the review body should look at how is that more young people will be able to go into higher England, Scotland and Wales can be open in the education. international market to academics and students from all over the world. The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual Property (Mr. David Lammy): If the Liberal Democrat Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) position is that to support a 50 per cent. aspiration is no (Con): The hon. Gentleman is usually intelligent about longer right, is it not axiomatic that that must mean a these things, but he must get out more. If he did, he cut in the number of young people studying full time at would know that the Conservative Opposition have a universities? That is what has been said by the hon. highly distinctive position on higher education; it is Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable). Can the hon. sensibly and constructively critical of the Government Member for Bristol, West (Stephen Williams) confirm when it needs to be. He should know that, because I was this morning that that is the Liberal Democrat position? articulating that position on a platform with his colleague, the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), Stephen Williams: The Minister talks about a cut, but just last week. according to the Government’s preferred measure of 18 to 30-year-olds, for most of the past decade participation Stephen Williams: I shall look with interest at what in higher education has been about 40 per cent.—sometimes my hon. Friend and the hon. Gentleman said in that slightly below, currently slightly above. We are saying debate. that a 50 per cent. target, which was meant to have been The size of the sector has been mentioned and the reached next year, involves an arbitrary number with hon. Member for Reading, East referred to the 50 per little meaning. We are about 10 per cent. away from that cent. target. Just to make it clear, I should say that the target, so to say that the Liberal Democrats’not subscribing Liberal Democrats have never supported the 50 per to a target that has not been met amounts to a cut is, I cent. target. We believe that more people should have am afraid, not a very numerate position for the Minister the opportunity to go into higher education, but setting to put forward. 19WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 20WH

Mr. Lammy: Is the hon. Gentleman confirming that will be the way forward. In other words, it says that a the Liberal Democrat position is that 43 per cent., the large part of the future funding growth of higher education current percentage, is about right? will probably come from students or graduates. Everyone expects that the review will recommend an increase in contributions from the graduate body. As I said at the Stephen Williams: No, I am not saying that. I made it outset, it is a shame—to put it mildly—that that review clear in my earlier remarks that we believe that there is a will conclude well after the general election. The problem with the number of people going into higher announcement of the framework said that the review education. There are vast pools of untapped opportunity would conclude in the summer, while the written statement in the country. I have made such points on umpteen announcing the review said that it would conclude in occasions in the past four and a half years, when I have the autumn of 2010. Whatever the exact date, it will be been speaking for my party on the subject. We have beyond the time when people vote to choose their next never subscribed to the arbitrary 50 per cent. target. Government. That is simply not acceptable, either to The hon. Member for Reading, East and several students or to their parents, and we deserve a clearer other hon. Members mentioned part-time learners. It is choice. crucial that the review looks at how a level playing field The Liberal Democrats reaffirm our commitment to can be constructed for people who choose to study part abolish the tuition fees model of funding higher education. time. We know that the number of young people is That model is broken. If we got into the fully variable going to fall over the next decade and that we need to model of the future, which is the logical conclusion of upskill our work force, who are largely going to come the fees model as begun by former Prime Minister Tony from people who are studying part time. The financial Blair, all sorts of social consequences will follow, including and course regimes make that hard for people to do. fair access to the professions, which was mentioned by Whatever the funding future is, we must make sure that several contributors to the debate. it is level between those who study full time and those It is crucial that the review should look at the various who study part time, and that credit accumulation and alternative positions, and the National Union of Students transfer is part of that future. has done us a service by putting forward its idea of a graduate tax. However, whatever happens, it is not good Mr. Wilson: Before the hon. Gentleman leaves the enough for the Labour and Conservative parties to hide previous topic of student numbers, can he explain why behind the review at the next general election and say, the hon. Member for Twickenham included in his “We will have to wait and see.” calculations the money savings from the cut in student numbers? Mr. Lammy: Will the hon. Gentleman give way? I particularly refer the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Stephen Williams) to an article in The Independent on Stephen Williams: I am drawing my remarks to a 17 June. If the hon. Member for Twickenham is making close. those financial savings by making such cuts, how can he Discerning voters in Bristol, West, in Reading, East not be cutting student numbers at the same time? or in Tottenham deserve far better. Stephen Williams: I am delighted that the hon. Gentleman—probably with assistance from his colleagues 10.40 am in the Conservative Whips Office—studies so carefully Mr. John Hayes (South Holland and The Deepings) what Liberal Democrat spokespersons say in the run-up (Con): It is a great pleasure to speak in the debate and to the general election. We have a good record at every to follow the hon. Member for Bristol, West (Stephen general election of putting forward not only what policies Williams), whose speech was a powerful reminder of we would like to achieve in our manifesto but how we why the Liberal Democrats have not been in government shall fund them. We shall certainly be doing so on this since the days of Lloyd George. occasion. The exact mix of funding priorities and how My hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East we meet them have not yet been determined. Obviously, (Mr. Wilson) did us a great service by bringing this given the turbulent economic circumstances, different matter to the attention of the House, and once again he ideas have been mentioned at different times, but the has shown what a champion he is of the cause of the final decision has not been made. student voice. He speaks eloquently and with insight on My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mark higher education matters, and—I say this to reassure Williams) also mentioned part-time students, as well as the hon. Member for Bristol, West—there is rarely cross-border issues. He and I are a pretty good example inconsistency between us. We speak regularly about of the complexity of cross-border issues. He went to such matters, and we share a vision for higher education school in England, went to university in Wales and now that is informed and inspired by a determination to represents his adopted-home seat, while I made the widen access to people of all abilities and from all opposite journey. That was quite easy for us to do in the backgrounds to the opportunities that they deserve. 1980s; it would now be a much more complicated That is because we care about social mobility and educational—hopefully not political—journey for us to crave social justice—a Britain without barriers to self- make. It is vital for the review to look at the complicated improvement and without limits on opportunity. cross-border issues between Wales and England and Participation in higher education has a vital role in with Scotland and Northern Ireland. feeding social mobility and thus achieving social justice, Coming to funding, the White Paper, published by and so in building a cohesive and just Britain. That is the Government a month ago, makes it clear that the why our great challenge is to broaden access to advanced “redistribution of existing funds and leverage of private investment learning. I have no doubt that that ambition is widely rather than…new money” shared; certainly it is by the Minister. However, as 21WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 22WH the hon. Member for North-West Leicestershire (David with—the admissions system; and they have tried to Taylor) said, the uncomfortable truth is that rather than push students in through programmes focused on widening access in that way, the expansion in university aspirations. However, push-me-pull-you policies do little education in the past 30 years has in some senses to address the fundamental problems. Media analysis of cemented social division. Opportunity for some has not the Aimhigher campaign suggests that its message is meant opportunity for all. best received not by socio-economic groups D and E, Just last month, Lord Mandelson published his but by group A. Those conclusions were supported by a framework document on the future of higher education. Government study, which found Its proposals expose the terrible lack of progress. Even “no conclusive statistical evidence that such interventions have though the figures have been recalibrated and recalculated, then led to increased aspirations to enter higher education.” the Government have achieved only about 43 per cent. Surveys show that three quarters of young people from participation in higher education. Furthermore, as the all social groups aspire to go to university, and another Minister knows, successful women mask failure for survey, as I suggested a moment ago, showed that 91 per men. Perhaps he will comment on that. cent. of parents and grandparents want their young By a consistent measure, the proportion of entrants people to go to university, regardless of social background. overall has been static for most of the past decade. Even What we need, as my hon. Friend the Member for though the Government have spent an immense amount Reading, East began to articulate, is a system that of money on widening participation programmes, under empowers learners. That argument has been powerfully the banner of Aimhigher, the participation rate of working- made by the NUS and student unions. I entirely endorse class students has hardly improved since 1995. If that the support that my hon. Friend has offered the NUS were not bad enough, the rate of improvement has and student unions. At university I was union treasurer declined. In the previous decade, participation by working- and my hon. Friend was president of his student union, class students actually grew at a faster pace, as Lord so there is no prejudice among Conservative Members Dearing revealed in his report. against the student voice—far from it. Labour is failing because it misinterprets what widening Empowering learners means that we need to use the participation really means. We heard from the hon. proceeds from the early repayment of student loans to Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Mr. Willis), fund extra places—10,000 of them—and that is what and others, that a myopic obsession with improving we have said we will do. Rather than just talking about access for a small number of students to a small number helping people from poorer backgrounds, we need policies of universities has meant a preoccupation with policies that do so by taking firm and distinctive action. That, I focused on admissions and aspiration. The difficulty would point out to the hon. Member for Bristol, West, with both those views is that there is little evidence to is a quite different approach from the Government’s. I suggest that the best universities are prejudiced against do not blame the Government for having a different working-class students. approach from ours. It is good democratic politics to Indeed, Higher Education Funding Council evidence have such debates and exchanges. suggests rather the opposite—that they favour applications What would we do that would be so different? The from those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Furthermore, first thing would be to establish an all-age professional there is no evidence to suggest that working-class students careers advice service with a presence in every school do not aspire to the same things as their middle-class and college. The Minister knows that just 6 per cent. of contemporaries. Indeed, all the survey evidence shows pupils in state schools at age 15 go on to study at Russell that aspiration is growing most among those in the group universities, and just one in 10 of those state lowest socio-economic groups, and that working-class school entrants comes from the bottom two socio-economic parents and grandparents want the same for their children groups. However, that is not surprising given that Sutton as middle-class parents; it is a bourgeois, liberal myth Trust research shows that many state school teachers that the working classes have a rather different view of would not advise even their brightest pupils to apply to such things. In fact, they know that education at university Oxbridge. Many of those teachers with responsibility or college is likely to bring better prospects, and they for offering that advice have not received the training want that for their children, just as their middle-class that they would need to offer the best guidance. I do not contemporaries do. What they lack is the wherewithal, blame teachers for that; we simply ask too much of as my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, East so them in that respect. What needs to be fixed is not the powerfully argued. university admissions system, but the advice and guidance Wherewithal is a matter of the right kind of advice that young people get. and guidance. Survey evidence suggests that many teachers We also need to offer comprehensive advice about the do not point their students in the direction of university employment and wage returns of courses. We need a applications. The reason why fewer working-class children good website to do that. Those things exist in other than middle-class children get to university is that fewer parts of the world. Indeed, several studies are going on people from working-class backgrounds apply—partly in this country, and we have been looking at them because they do not get the right advice, and partly closely, as my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, because they do not have the baseline qualifications to East is aware. We are determined to put such information do so. Until we solve those two problems, programmes in the hands of potential learners. It must be about to encourage applications will at best be icing on the where, how and when to study. cake and, worse, they may displace the resources for Employability is not just about what people study, dealing with those more fundamental issues. but about how they study, a point that my hon. Friend The Government have focused on what I describe as also made. I have long argued, as he has, that we push-me-pull-you policies. They have tried to pull more should revisit traditional assumptions about the pattern students in, by regulating—some would say interfering of higher education and study. We must recognise the 23WH Higher Education1 DECEMBER 2009 Higher Education 24WH

[Mr. John Hayes] In fact, we have seen a 25 per cent. real-terms rise in the public funding of universities since 1997. Large-scale value of different learning experiences such as part-time increases in the public funding of research help to drive courses and community based, modular and distance innovation and economic growth. Since 1997, the science learning. I welcome my hon. Friend’s advocacy of a budget has risen from £1.3 billion to £4 billion. When credit-based approach; we are enthusiastic about considering we talk about the success of our universities, particularly taking that further. The fees review must give serious those that engage in world-class research, we should attention to the ways in which we support flexible remember that it is largely the result of that funding. means of study. We must also consider the students: more maintenance As the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough support is available to students than at any time in our and others have argued—my hon. Friend has also history, including non-repayable bursaries for a large championed the idea—further education colleges are at majority. There are more students at our universities the heart of that approach. They are characterised by than at any time in our history. More students from being local, and by accessibility and flexibility. Their state schools are at university, and there are more cohort is typically drawn from a social range wider than students from low-participation neighbourhoods. Less that of most higher education institutions. Perhaps the well-off families are sending young people to universities, Minister will explain why the amount of HE taught in and I am pleased to say that more black and ethnic FE colleges continues to decline, for it is a damning minority students are at university. I genuinely believe indictment that it has happened on his watch. that that is a record of which the country can be proud. We also want more students to enter higher education It turns the page on a past in which there was under- through the vocational route. I see apprenticeships as investment in research and in which continued growth, being at the heart of that practical method, which is particularly for those from less well-off backgrounds, why we intend to introduce new vocational skill was not happening. scholarships; that will allow people to go on that vocational As has been said, last month, my noble Friend Lord pathway into higher education study. Mandelson, the Secretary of State who has responsibility The Government have based their policies on a double for the universities, published “Higher Ambitions”—a prejudice, and I hope that the Minister will either explain framework document that sets out the challenges that why or refute the fact. He may want to step back from we believe face universities over the next 10 to 15 years. that prejudice or he may wish to justify it. It is a The framework was not delivered to the sector from on prejudice against the university admissions system and high; it was widely championed and supported by the a liberal establishment prejudice that the academic path sector itself. It was a product of many months of is the only way to travel on the road to the good life. consultation; indeed, it began with a debate, with many We do not take that view. We believe that looking professors from the higher education sector making a again at access points to learning, at modes of study, at contribution. It is a good document, and it has been the character of university life and at the advice and welcomed not only by the sector but by the CBI and the guidance that young people receive is the best way of National Union of Students. It is good a platform on allowing more people to achieve the glittering prizes which to build, and I am pleased to see the hon. that the Minister has achieved and to which so many Member for South Holland and The Deepings nodding. others aspire. An essential aspect of the debate is widening access. We made clear in “Higher Ambitions” that that was an 10.50 am important challenge. Indeed, we ensured that the question The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual of access—not only for young people, but for mature Property (Mr. David Lammy): I congratulate the hon. and part-time students—was central to the fees review. Member for Reading, East (Mr. Wilson) on securing We have consistently said that we need greater parity of this debate and on the manner in which he put his funding, particularly for part-time students, and we case—and on his continued support for higher education. asked the fees review to consider the matter closely. Time will not permit me to answer every question asked The document also seeks to build on foundation this morning, but we have had a good debate. degrees, and it acknowledges the important role that FE I note the comments made by the hon. Members for can play in the transition to higher education, so long as Ceredigion (Mark Williams) and for Cities of London certain quality thresholds are passed; and it wishes to and Westminster (Mr. Field) and the manner in which build on the work of the Aimhigher programme. I am they spoke. The hon. Member for South Holland and concerned that the hon. Gentleman seems to have his The Deepings (Mr. Hayes) was his usual consistent self. aim particularly on Aimhigher, but that would not be We have been meeting across the House for a considerable supported by all universities and certainly not by schools, period over such matters, and I was not surprised this which have seen an increase in applications to university morning. The hon. Member for Bristol, West (Stephen as a consequence of the important range of activities Williams) demonstrated his most opportunistic style, that is taking place across the country. We say that there but it was not worthy of the general standard of debate, should be no artificial cap on talent. and I shall return to the inconsistencies that he continues Mr. Hayes: Will the Minister confirm that, when the to display in relation to higher education. I believe that investigation into the debacle of student finance this students, parents and the country deserve the best, and summer is completed, we will have the chance to debate I hope that the Liberal Democrat leader is studying the the matter on the Floor of the House? hon. Gentleman’s inconsistencies closely. Few issues divide the House as clearly as higher Mr. Lammy: It would be premature to pre-empt the education. The Government’s record is clear. There conclusions. The report will be with me shortly. Of have been year-on-year increases in public investment. course I shall publish it, and hon. Members will of 25WH Higher Education 1 DECEMBER 2009 26WH course want to comment. I acknowledge that it is a Proportional Representation serious issue, but I also acknowledge the work done by my right hon. Friend the Member for Darlington 11 am (Mr. Milburn) on social mobility, to which we will be publishing our response. We have also published our Mr. Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab): I want to response to the work of colleagues in the Department put the case for proportional representation—a system for Children, Schools and Families on their information, by which parties are represented in Parliament in proportion advice and guidance strategy. I would ask hon. Members to the votes that they get in the country and for triennial to read it, because much of what has been said about Parliaments, to keep politics on a short leash and to give information, advice and guidance has been addressed the people more control over Parliament through more there. regular elections. I urge that those issues, particularly I turn to the duplicity that was displayed by the hon. proportional representation, be put to the people in a Member for Bristol, West. referendum, which will allow them—not us—to decide whether they want them. That would preferably be done Mr. Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. I must point out when the vote is at its highest, on 6 May next year, when to the Minister that it would be unwise to use the word the general election occurs. That would remove all the “duplicity”. It is an unparliamentary term. preoccupations of a hung Parliament, which is likely to follow that election. If that is not possible, I urge an Mr. Lammy: You are quite right, Mr. Benton. We early referendum on proportional representation. have seen an inconsistency between what was said by I want to emphasise that securing this debate is not the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) on these political opportunism. I am not a member of the Cabinet— matters and what was confirmed this morning by the nor of the shadow Cabinet, yet—and there are only a hon. Member for Bristol, West. He now suggests that he few months to go. I must, therefore, be absolved from will not support even a 43 per cent. participation rate. the sins of opportunism, which afflict people at a higher Does he support a freeze on fees because he sees it as a level. Opportunism is not a Back Bencher’s disease—it way to cut student numbers? That is what he heard is certainly not mine. I want and urge proportional earlier, but his leader has said that he could not honestly representation, because it is right and because it is a place it at the forefront of his manifesto. He said: much fairer system than the one we have now. “You can’t carry on promising the same menu of goodies.” To further rebut the charge of opportunism, I have The hon. Member for Bristol, West has to come clean been in favour of proportional representation ever since with students. I was elected to the House 32 years ago, and that is a long time. When I was first elected, I joined the Labour campaign for electoral reform and—incredible though it now seems—the bulk of support for electoral reform at that time came from the Conservative party, which wanted proportional representation to keep out socialism and Tony Benn. There has been a volte-face since then. Parties have changed their opinions on the issue very much in common with how they have changed them on Europe and the European Union. My rise within the cause of proportional representation was rocked assisted; as soon as I joined the Labour campaign for electoral reform, all the other members left to join the Social Democratic party, and I rapidly became chair and sole member. Those are my credentials; I have always supported proportional representation.

Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): I understand the hon. Gentleman’s passion for proportional representation, but why is he raising the issue when so many other pressing matters face our country, not least the economic situation? He represents a coastal constituency, and it is almost as though he is talking about what colour he is going to paint the deck while the ship is going down.

Mr. Mitchell: That intervention is largely irrelevant. I am raising the issue because it clearly is topical and important, because if we have a hung Parliament after the next election it will play a part, and most of all because all the other issues that we have to decide need to be decided on a fair basis, and that can happen only if the House represents the party allegiances and political preferences of the electorate. That is why I secured the debate. The issue is pre-eminent, simply because we need to make the House more representative of the nation’s views. 27WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 28WH

Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab) rose— Mr. Mitchell: It certainly meant that in 1951, but that is long ago. Since then, all that has changed. At the last Mr. Mitchell: I am going to get further confirmation European elections, as I said, only about 44 per cent. now, I think. voted for one of the two main parties. What do we do in that situation with first past the post, which is bound to give an unclear result? First past the post gives strong Mr. Donohoe: I am not so sure. I congratulate my government by effectively disfranchising large numbers hon. Friend on securing the debate, but perhaps he has of the people. It disfranchises a large number of people not had the experience that we have had north of the who vote for the third party, the Liberal Democrats; border of how proportional representation affects us anybody who votes for a minority party, because they and the constituents that we represent. Had he had that do not have the representation that their vote should experience, I do not think that he would be on his entitle them to; and, in most constituencies, people who feet today. vote for the minor, or losing, party. No wonder people feel that the current system does not represent their Mr. Mitchell: I certainly would. I accept that Labour wishes. party members in Scotland feel a certain amount of grievance, but they have to remember that proportional Mr. Donohoe: Surely the greatest statistic of the last representation was introduced in Scotland to stop the European elections was that less than 50 per cent. of the system being swamped by the overwhelming dominance people voted. If we were to address the situation differently, of the Labour party there, both in seats and political we would look at why people are not voting at all. preferences. It was introduced to make the system fairer Mr. Mitchell: That is true. It is my contention that and to give other parties representation, and it has proportional representation would increase the vote. I produced a coalition Government. My hon. Friend will am afraid that that has not be shown in this country, probably tell me that it was a system in which whatever but it has been demonstrated in countries that have Jim Wallace wanted, Jim Wallace got, but since the turned to proportional representation, such as New people have voted effectively for a coalition Government, Zealand and West Germany. We need a fair system. We what could be fairer? must accept that first past the post is wanted by the I do not think that the views of Labour party members leadership of the parties and many MPs because it is in Scotland are relevant to the decision on the national the basis of elected dictatorship, which is the system of system of proportional representation that I am urging. government that we are lumbered with. It is a system in I accept that it is difficult to sell the system to Members which our Government effectively drive a steamroller of Parliament, because they tend to believe that whatever over issues. system elected them must be the best in the world, and In career politics, people love to climb aboard a that has been responsible for a lot of hostility to steamroller, but the Government are all-powerful in proportional representation. Our current system is not such a situation. It is a top-down system in which the best in the world. We could have a fairer system in decisions are taken on the sofas of Downing street, the which Parliament was constituted how the people wanted, Cabinet are effectively a ratification machine for those based on their votes, and in which they therefore had an decisions and MPs are treated like sheep as they are investment and felt that it was their Parliament, rather driven into the Lobby to vote for the decisions that are than one imposed on them by the electoral system. taken by that small minority in Downing street. I concede straight away, and it could be argued in this Daniel Kawczynski: Will the hon. Gentleman give debate—I see a number of opponents of proportional way? representation rallying to the cause—that first past the post gives strong government. Strong government is Mr. Mitchell: I hope that the hon. Gentleman is appropriate to an empire, to war and to a country that going to defend such a system. wants to go around invading smaller countries, but not Daniel Kawczynski: The hon. Gentleman has used to an age when the people want more say in and the word “fairness” a great deal throughout his speech. influence on Parliament, and want it to respond to their He knows that the vast majority of seats in the United views. Kingdom are either Conservative or Labour. If we had People want to identify with a Parliament that they the alternative voting system, Liberal Democrat voters have voted for. It can be argued that first past the post is would always get a second vote, so he would create two appropriate to a two-party system, but that system is classes of voter. Labour and Conservative voters would now much weaker than it was. In 1951, 97 per cent. of have only one vote, but Liberal Democrats, coming the electorate voted for one of the two main parties, but third, would always have a chance to cast a second vote. in the last European elections that proportion was It would be simply wrong and absolutely disgraceful about 44 per cent. Party dominance is inevitably weakening, for some citizens to have two votes when others had and first past the post gives strong government by only one. disfranchising huge numbers of the people. Mr. Mitchell: The hon. Gentleman is in favour of fox hunting, because at the moment he is shooting dead Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): Am I foxes. Such a situation would be the result of the right that the hon. Gentleman just said that 97 per cent. alternative voting system where people listed candidates of the electorate voted for one or other of the two main in order of preference. It might well be that the Liberal parties? Does that not mean, therefore, that 97 per cent. Democrats are everybody’s second preference, because of the electorate wanted our country to be governed by they are such a nice, warm, cuddly party. one or other of the two main parties, which it is? Is that not representative democracy? Stephen Williams (Bristol, West) (LD) rose— 29WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 30WH

David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD) rose— previous elections, to formulate my own policies, put out my own manifesto and conduct my own campaign Mr. Mitchell: No, the Liberal Democrats are cuddly, without interference from the central party. but I do not want to cuddle them at the moment. In The central parties ignore the so-called safe seats and proportional representation, everyone has two votes—one concentrate everything on the marginals. Under the for the constituency and one for the list. Everyone has additional Member system, that would no longer be that right, whether they vote for one of the minor possible. Experience in New Zealand has shown that it parties or for a major party. This parliamentary despotism is necessary to campaign everywhere, particularly in the of the elected dictatorship has inflicted damage on safe seats, because the party majority is bigger there and public perceptions of Parliament. It is one reason why it is essential to get all those votes out to affect the people are so hostile to, critical of and alienated from voting on the list side of the equation. Therefore, such a the current system. Such feelings have been exacerbated system makes campaigns genuinely national and for all by The Daily Telegraph and will be further exacerbated the people. by the lunacy of Legg and his decision to throw us to the lions retrospectively, but I do not want to go on Mrs. Laing: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving about that. way on that specific point. Is it not the case that under Proportional representation is one of the few ways to the current system, the hon. Gentleman, who is undoubtedly remedy the situation and restore respect for Parliament, an individual, can go before his electorate in Great because it gives the people the Parliament they vote for, Grimsby and put himself forward as a person with a list puts the parties on a short leash and abolishes the of principles on which he stands to be elected? If he was elected dictatorship. However, that could mean that we not that individual but was someone on a party list have coalitions, like Scotland. The system led to coalitions under a proportional system, he could not exercise in New Zealand and West Germany, but not in Sweden, his own individuality. He would have to adopt what his where there has been a long-term dominance by the party said on the party list. He is arguing against his Social Democrats. own individuality, which brings great value to this place and to his constituents. What is wrong with coalitions if that is what the people vote for? As it is, the betrayals come before Mr. Mitchell: I am afraid that that point is also the election as major parties dilute everything they incorrect. I agree that it is very kind of the Grimsby stand for to develop a catch-all appeal. With coalitions, Labour party to select a geriatric as its prospective the parties that the people elect have to compromise on parliamentary candidate; it is being kind to the aged, policy to form a Government. That seems to be a and I am eternally grateful for that. The point is that perfectly sensible system that reflects the views of the with the additional Member system, half or more of the people. seats are constituency seats, and the old rules apply. In other words, people would be elected on their own John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): Given that a merits. It is essential for the parties to put forward the coalition or a minority Government need support from most attractive people on the list in the hope of winning other parties on particular issues, does the hon. Gentleman votes, which is exactly what they do—whether they are not agree that that leads to decision making that has independent or beautiful or whether they are Jordan or broader acceptance among the public? Katie Price. Stephen Williams: I thank the hon. Gentleman for Mr. Mitchell: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is now being proportional in granting making that point, because it is absolutely true. Experience interventions as well. Does he agree that the system of in New Zealand suggests that those coalitions have to proportional representation that allows the voter to be formed and reformed on every piece of legislation. make discerning choices between candidates is the single There is no one permanent coalition that imposes its transferable vote? views on the people, because a majority in Parliament has to be built up on each piece of legislation and Mr. Mitchell: I agree. I am coming on to that now. coalitions have to be formed around that legislation. In The candidate would appeal in his own way to his own other words, every piece of legislation is wanted and constituency. However, that is a question of what system develops maximum support. That is a fairer system of proportional representation we would use. I do not than steamrolling legislation through, as we now do, on want to get bogged down in an argument about which the basis of the party majority that represents some of system is best; I have my own views. The most attractive the views of the people and was elected five years system is the additional Member system, or MMP—the previously. I am all in favour of coalitions, both around mixed Member proportional system—as it is called in legislation and in general. New Zealand, in which half the MPs are elected on a As for the point made by the hon. Member for constituency basis and half on a list basis, which would Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), people shrink the number of constituency seats. I notice that would have two votes if we adopted the additional the Conservative party proposes to abolish a substantial Member system—one for the list and one for their proportion of our seats without any referendum or any constituency. That would force the parties to stop consultation with the people or the electorates affected, concentrating most of their campaigning on a few so it cannot complain about the reduction necessary marginal voters in a few marginal constituencies and with MMP. ignoring the rest of the country, particularly the safe The additional Member system represents the current seats. Grimsby is no longer a safe seat, although that is situation. Some among us are devoted constituency not my achievement, but in the past it was largely MPs, perhaps because we will not rise any further and immune from national campaigns, which allowed me, in have reached the limits of our prowess. That is not true 31WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 32WH

[Mr. Austin Mitchell] would empower extremist parties and allow them into office. What is his view on that? He has not yet broached in my case, but it is for many. However, for those who the subject. see themselves as ministrable—men or women of destiny who will rise to high office and cannot wait to get Mr. Mitchell: That is just not so. Extremist or daft there—the seat is merely a stepping stone to power. parties—from time to time, it seems that such descriptions Those are the two types of Member, and the additional could also be used of the majority parties—can be kept Member system represents them by allowing the out by a threshold. They are not kept out in Israel, but ministrables to appear on the party list. should be. However, they are kept out in Germany; those who gain less than 5 per cent. of the vote have no Mr. David Drew (Stroud) (Lab/Co-op): I thank my representation. It is a simple expedient to keep out hon. Friend for giving way, and I am sorry to have fascist or lunatic parties, which at the moment are missed the first few minutes of his wonderful speech. perfectly free to stand and put their case before the Does he agree that the best way to deal with the accusation people, and even to win seats in European elections. that an elected person on the list was just a party hack I was praising the New Zealand system and saying would be to ensure that only members of the party in a that one system that I would not support is the alternative clear geographical area could choose the make-up of vote, which is used in Australia. It would not be acceptable the list? That would get rid of the nonsense of people here. That is not because it is Australian—some of my being imposed from the centre. best friends are Australian—but because it is a daft system. It is a half-baked compromise, which has been Mr. Mitchell: I agree absolutely that that is the way to espoused by a number of people, including Cabinet do it. The weakness of the current system is the way Ministers, who want to show themselves as being candidates can be imposed on constituencies by moving sympathetic to the growing demand for proportional somebody to the House of Lords—I have to tell this representation but who are terrified to take the final Chamber that I have not yet received an offer—or by step and introduce a system that is proportional. They bringing in young men and women of destiny, who have therefore rally round the broken flag of the alternative worked in Downing street or for Ministers or think-tanks, vote. They show concern but will not do anything. and who have had no contact with the real world and My beloved Prime Minister’s preference for a referendum real people. My hon. Friend’s suggestion is therefore on the alternative vote is daft. To put it simply, it would exactly right. be a vote on nothing at all—a vote for those who do not Another system is the single transferable vote, which want electoral reform or who do not want proportional is used in Ireland. It would mean larger constituencies, representation. I would have to include my right hon. each with three or four Members. That is the preference Friend the Secretary of State for Justice and Lord of the Electoral Reform Society, although I am not sure Chancellor among that coterie, so determined is he not whether it is the preference of the Liberal party. That is to have proportional representation. I do not know why one alternative. The third possibility is that recommended he fears it, but when he was forced to introduce it for the in the Jenkins report, which is best described as the European elections he brought in the worst possible alternative vote plus. In other words, there would be a system—the closed list. That was done deliberately, top-up of 15 to 20 per cent. of the constituency part of with the concurrence of the Liberal Democrats, to the vote, which would represent the majority—80 or invalidate the case for electoral reform and proportional 85 per cent.—to introduce greater proportionality. representation. He is now talking of giving us proportional Any of those systems would do, and any would be representation for the House of Lords. That would preferable to the current system. My preference is the make the Lords the more representative House, but he New Zealand system. That is largely because I am an will not give us the alternative vote for the House of apprentice New Zealander, although the hon. Member Commons. It would be a disaster. for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Beresford) is a real one. That I must come to a close, Mr. Benton, and I am sorry system has worked very well. It was initially opposed by for having gone on a little too long. The conclusion is Prime Minister Helen Clark and the Speaker, but both simply this: it is no use the advocates of first past the are now converted because the system works so well, post, who are gathered here in huge number to put the ensuring that legislation is wanted and has the consent case against me and destroy my argument, saying that and support of the great majority of the House, and their system is the best in the world and that we should therefore of the electorate. keep it. That is not true. The New Zealand system was introduced after two Proportional representation is a much fairer and referendums. Politicians there were so anxious to support better system, and it would alleviate much of the discontent first past the post that they erected two hurdles for the and alienation that are directed not so much against electorate to jump. However, the electorate were ready Parliament, but against the party system and the elected to jump those hurdles because they felt betrayed by dictatorship, which are sustained by the first-past-the-post both parties, as indeed they were. Similar feelings of system. antagonism to the political parties are building up here, This is not a question of us arguing about the types and our electorate may well be prepared to jump. The of system that would suit our purposes once the people system has worked well in New Zealand, and I believe it have given their consent; such information is available would work well here. from the Library. Today, I want to establish the case for putting the question to the people, and that is about Daniel Kawczynski: I am enjoying the hon. Gentleman’s democratic rights, and the nature and workings of speech, but so far he has failed to mention one important producing a fairer system. It is the people’s decision, matter—the fact that all the systems he has spoken of not ours. 33WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 34WH

Several hon. Members rose— me on the issue or had taken the time to come and talk to me about it, perhaps I would have a little more Mr. Joe Benton (in the Chair): Order. I propose sympathy with it. commencing the winding-up speeches at 12 o’clock. A number of Members have indicated a wish to speak, so David Howarth: That is not my experience in Cambridge, would right hon. and hon. Members bear that in mind? so perhaps the hon. Gentleman might come and visit my constituency at some point to talk to some people 11.29 am who understand that politics and other issues are connected. We cannot separate the political system from the content Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): of the politics that it delivers. I congratulate the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) on securing this important debate. Daniel Kawczynski: I am only giving the hon. Gentleman I have worked closely with the hon. Member for my own experience as a Member of Parliament in Central Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe). He is a good friend, Shropshire. although I hope that saying so will not get him into trouble. We are the joint chairmen of the all-party Mr. Drew: I tested the feeling on this subject in my group on the continuation of first past the post, and we constituency, on the basis of having been elected to the feel passionately about that voting system. Interestingly, parliamentary reform Committee. I wrote to all my Scottish Labour MPs make up the largest number of constituents. I must say that there was a very narrow members of the all-party group and it is very important result, but I received more than 7,000 replies. People that the Minister takes note of that. Those MPs have came down narrowly in favour of electoral reform. seen at first hand the chaos and mayhem that the voting However, more than anything, I learned about how systems have brought about in Scotland and there has many people wanted a debate on the subject and more been deep confusion in previous elections because of information about it. It is wrong for the parties just to the different voting systems that have been put in place. shut this issue down. There is a yearning among people Our all-party group recently had a debate about these for at least a look at what would be involved if there was issues here in Parliament with the Electoral Reform a proper debate on electoral reform. Society. I go back to what I said in my first intervention today. Daniel Kawczynski: As I said, I only want to give the Given all the problems facing our country at the moment, Minister the benefit of my own experience from Shrewsbury. including the economic crisis, I am deeply concerned that organisations such as the Electoral Reform Society, At the moment, we have a crazy number of voting and hon. Members, should be pressing for this change systems in the United Kingdom. Last week, I had a in the voting system. That is such a distraction from all meeting with Mr. Wardle, the chief executive of the the things that we need to be addressing as parliamentarians. Electoral Commission, and I put to him some of these issues. He said to me that it is not for the Electoral Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD): I thank the hon. Commission to decide which voting system we have and Gentleman for giving way. He speaks with great passion that he would feel uncomfortable in trying to come up on these issues. However, does the “chaos and mayhem” with any system. He added that it is obviously the to which he has alluded extend to Wales? In Wales, we responsibility of Parliament to decide on the voting have had for 10 years an additional Member system system and that the Electoral Commission would have and stable government, although at the moment the to work under that system. Government are not of my choosing; now we have a However, Mr. Wardle said something else that I found Labour-Plaid Cymru Administration, whereas previously interesting. He admitted to me that there were far too there was a Liberal-Labour Administration. Above all many voting systems in the United Kingdom—that was else, in Wales we have had a clear programme of government the chief executive of the Electoral Commission speaking. negotiated by the parties in the full public gaze. That He said that in no other country in the world are there inspires confidence in the system rather than creating so many different types of voting system. That is a very the “chaos and mayhem” to which the hon. Gentleman powerful thing for the Minister to take away from alluded. today’s debate; even somebody as senior as the chief executive of the Electoral Commission is concerned Daniel Kawczynski: I shall come to coalition about the confusion and the complications that are Governments later in my speech. Ultimately, however, I arising from all the different voting systems put in place do not know whether the coalition Government of by the Labour Government in the past few years. Labour and Plaid Cymru are delivering for the people The first-past-the-post system has served us well. The of Wales as the hon. Gentleman seems to be suggesting. constituency link is essential. When I go to my electorate Constituents come to see me in my surgery and I talk in Shrewsbury, I put my case directly to them. What to them on their doorsteps. In nearly five years, not a would happen under PR, one of the other systems? We single one of them—and there are 74,000 in all—has would have to hide our views. What would happen if we said to me, “You know, Mr. Kawczynski, I really want a had the alternative voting system, which, as has rightly change in the voting system; if there is one thing I want been said, is the Prime Minister’s preferred option? One you to press for in the House of Commons, it is a would have to be far more cynical and hide one’s views, change in the voting system.” What they do talk to me because one would always know that neither the Labour about is the Royal Shrewsbury hospital, funding for our party nor the Conservative party would win. It would schools and all the other things that affect them day to always be down to Liberal voters to be the king-makers day. Not a single one of them has called for a change in and decide which party would get enough votes to take the voting system. If a single constituent had written to it over 50 per cent. One would have to blunt one’s 35WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 36WH

[Daniel Kawczynski] I have said many times to the people of Shropshire, “I will give anybody in this room £100 if they can name me ideology, passion and beliefs to placate those Liberal two Members of the European Parliament who represent Democrats and ensure their second vote. I feel passionately us.” So far, in five years, I have not lost a penny. No one against the second vote; I will come to that in a moment. knows who those Members of the European Parliament are, because none of them lives, works, has offices or Stephen Williams: In my constituency, the Conservative holds surgeries in Shropshire. Those MEPs have no party came third in 2001 and 2005, so it is Conservative accountability whatever to the people of Shropshire. voters to whom I will be appealing to ensure that a I must tell the hon. Member for Great Grimsby that non-Labour MP is elected in the next general election. the west midlands is larger in size and population than On the point about secrecy, does the hon. Gentleman many EU countries, such as Latvia, Lithuania and think that Angela Merkel hid her views from the German Estonia. How on earth can one be a coherent and electorate? accountable representative of an area of that size if one does not at least live in the community? I feel strongly Daniel Kawczynski: I am not going to start talking that if one wants to represent the people of an area, one about Angela Merkel. This debate is about our own should at least live in that community and be part of it, voting system in the United Kingdom. Far more seats because that way one will understand the local services are Conservative-Labour battlegrounds than Conservative- and be part of the emotional drive for that community. Liberal Democrat battlegrounds. The representatives in the European Parliament live Why should the Liberal Democrats get a second hundreds of miles away with absolutely no accountability. vote? That is the most important point that I want to make. We cannot have a system in which people who Mr. Drew: Is the issue not even simpler than that? vote for the Liberal Democrats or other minority parties People do not vote in those elections because they do get a second crack of the whip or bite of the cherry. not see the faintest relevance of the EU to their lives. Every citizen in the United Kingdom must be treated equally, and everyone should have a single vote. Daniel Kawczynski: That is a completely separate The hon. Member for Great Grimsby suggested that matter that we will discuss another time. we should have large seats with multiple Members. I I will end shortly, Mr. Benton, because you said that cannot think of anything worse. If we did have such a many hon. Members wished to speak. I will return situation, I certainly would not be prepared to be a briefly to the election of the two members of the British Member of Parliament; I would have serious difficulties National party to the European Parliament. I do not in continuing to be one. I feel passionately about my know about the hon. Member for Great Grimsby, but I constituency of Shrewsbury. All that I care about is had shivers going down my spine when I found out that representing the people of Shrewsbury. I am accountable they had been elected. I am a democrat and believe that to them. They know how I vote and come to see me in people should be allowed to stand as representatives no my surgery. I am responsible. Being one of four, five or matter what their views are, but I am very concerned six Members across a large area would be completely about any system that allows a party such as the BNP to meaningless and involve no accountability whatever. get representation. Mr. Austin Mitchell: I remind the hon. Gentleman David Howarth: BNP members of local councils have that Conservative party policy is to reduce the number been elected by the first-past-the-post system, so does of seats, so his seat will be bigger anyway.He is concentrating what the hon. Gentleman has just said not apply equally on the constituency issue. Let me make it clear that I to that system? agree with all that he says about the joys of representing a place. Representing Grimsby is the chief joy of my life. It is wonderful. I love it, and I represent a community Daniel Kawczynski: Being elected to local councils is in a borough that would continue under the additional very different from being elected to a national Parliament, Member system. We would have somewhat bigger or, in this case, the Parliament of the whole European constituencies, as the Conservatives are proposing anyway, Union. but we would still have the same constituency base. As part of our duties as joint chairmen of the all-party group, the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire and I Daniel Kawczynski: The hon. Gentleman is correct to visited the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh together say that the Conservatives wish to reduce the number of and interacted with MSPs to hear at first hand some of seats by about 60, but that has nothing to do with the the problems that they had faced as a result of PR. voting system; we would merely cut the number of What was fascinating was that even the two Green party seats. I disagree with him. He and I both represent MSPs, the king-makers who at one stage prevented the communities of roughly 74,000 constituents. We just Scottish National party budget from going ahead, said about do the job of representing those 74,000 constituents that they felt the current system was unsustainable. with the resources available, but I could not possibly Lastly, I have a point to make about the Liberal have the same interaction and accountability if I were Democrats, and I have been looking forward to making one of six Members of Parliament representing a much it. No wonder they are here in such large numbers. I feel larger area. passionately that one must always put one’s country I turn to the European Union elections. The hon. first, one’s constituency second and one’s party third, Member for Central Ayrshire said that the elections had but the Liberal Democrats have always pushed the issue a poor voter turnout and asked why. It is a good of PR on a purely party political basis to further their question. It is simply because there is no accountability. own cause. I think that it is such a shame that they are 37WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 38WH trying to force the issue through simply to get more proportional representation in this place. If we check Liberal Democrat MPs elected. That is absolutely the facts, we will find that to be the case, which goes unforgivable. back to the point of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury I hope that the Minister will take on board my and Atcham—self-interest. The Labour party must be concerns and that he has realised how passionately I the only party that has given away so much influence feel about the issue. Never in the five years during which and power during its period in Government. For that to I have been a Member have I been so worried about a be the case is absolutely ridiculous. single thing going ahead under the Labour Government as I am about the possibility of their changing the Stephen Williams: Is the hon. Gentleman proud of all voting system. We must safeguard the first-past-the-post the decisions that the Labour party made in the 1920s? system, which has nurtured our democracy and helped it thrive all this time. We must not endanger it. Mr. Donohoe: I was not around in the 1920s, it may be a surprise to know. However, let us look more closely 11.44 am at the systems in operation in Scotland, which are Mr. Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab): Thank confusing the public completely—I have seen women you, Mr. Benton, for allowing me to speak, although I coming from polling stations crying because they did will do so briefly because the hon. Member for Shrewsbury not understand the system and had not voted as a and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) has of course mentioned consequence. most of what I would have said—as joint chairmen of the all-party group on the continuation of first past the In local government north of the border, what are we post, we speak as one. However, I will make some seeing today? Cuts. Why are we seeing cuts? Because the additional points. SNP Administration in Edinburgh is attempting to take back power. Devolution was supposed to do the opposite, I have the experience at first hand, along with the but just this weekend we heard that if schools do not get hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason), of the into order, the Administration will take back the powers Scottish situation, although I probably have a different to Edinburgh. That is fundamentally wrong and against point of view from his. Having been here longer than the whole spirit of devolution. Devolution is not a him, and seen the Scottish Parliament from its birth, the one-way process, but should be taken right down to the whole question of running it is a joke and not in the lowest level—if need be, to the parish council. best interests of the people that we represent. I shall make a further point about that as I go through my speech. There is no doubt that what is imperative—and John Mason: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that changing the voting systems has not made a jot of one of the reasons that we are short of money in difference—is voter turnout. I have already made an Scotland is the Edinburgh tram system, which was intervention about that, on my hon. Friend the Member supported by Labour, the Conservatives and the Liberal for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell), who secured the Democrats, thereby defeating the Scottish Government? debate. However, unless and until we overcome that Although I consider it a waste of money, it was a good problem, democracy itself will be the loser. thing in a sense, because the issue showed that the Government could be defeated. John Mason: Does the hon. Gentleman accept that one of the big advantages in Scotland has been that, Mr. Donohoe: I am not sure that I want to go down where there was a safe seat, of whichever party, and a the road of transport in a debate with the hon. Gentleman. sleepy MP, MSP or whatever, such people have had to The whole question of what the SNP Administration wake up and really work for the electorate, because they have done to transport, in particular to the link with are competing with other politicians? Glasgow airport, is not the strongest point that he Mr. Donohoe: That does not apply in my case, as my might want to make. vote keeps going up—but let us move on. I will try to make another couple of points before I Voter turnout is the most important element that we close. The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham should be addressing and doing something about, not again made the point about Europe. I re-emphasise that changing systems. My hon. Friend the Member for case: I cannot name or even number the Members of Great Grimsby mentioned New Zealand, but I have the European Parliament representing Scotland. I do seen that system at first hand, as I am sure other hon. not know where any of their offices are, what they get Members have. It reminded me a bit of the trade unions up to or whether they are doing anything at all, but I in the ’60s, in which I played a fairly significant part, know one thing—in this place we have 70 per cent. of with all those smoke-filled rooms. All that I saw at first the legislation coming from Europe to look at, because hand in New Zealand was the Speaker, who was of the it has not been looked at as it might be by the scrutiny Labour party, trading with all the minority parties in committees in Europe. That is wrong. order to get any business through the House. The Prime My final point is on the Scottish added list system, Minister was his puppet. If someone tells me that that is which my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby a great system, I will tell them that I do not believe in it mentioned. He tried to suggest that that system was and that it does democracy no good. likely to lead to no party hacks being elected. I do not Another interesting thing, which I have mentioned suggest that my ex-hon. Friend George Foulkes is an previously and which I thought the hon. Member for honourable hack, but that is a classic example of somebody, Shrewsbury and Atcham was going to mention when he who did not even think that he was going to be there, addressed the Liberals, was that at one time the Liberals standing on the added list and being No. 1. He represents opposed proportional representation. Guess why? Because a swathe of Scotland and can sit there and twiddle his they were in Government. In 1921, they voted down thumbs and be down here in the House of Lords. 39WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 40WH

[Mr. Donohoe] For the first such election, in 1996, the New Zealand First party, led by a gentleman called Winston Peters, I suggest that that is not a system that would or campaigned extremely vigorously against the Bolger should be supported. I have always believed in this National party or conservative party Government. The place and, before I came to it, that first past the post is election results produced a hung Parliament. There the way forward. It is the best and most representative were eight weeks of haggling, after which Winston system as far as my constituents are concerned. Like the Peters did an about-turn and agreed to join the National hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham, I have not party in government, giving it a majority of one. Winston had a single person in my constituency, other than the Peters was leader of New Zealand First and an elected chattering class people, come to me and make any Member, but he always had the security of knowing argument for me to change my point of view. that if his electorate dispensed with him—which they eventually did—he could return as a list MP. 11.51 am Subsequent elections resulted in further hung Parliaments, Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley) (Con): I shall be as with a Labour Government led by Helen Clark that was quick as I can, Mr. Benton. I congratulate the hon. supported by the Greens on the left and by Winston Member for Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) on securing Peters, who had changed sides, and his party on the this opportunity. When I saw that he was speaking, I right. Every election resulted in a considerable period of had a funny feeling that he would refer to New Zealand haggling between the parties for the votes of those few and MMP, so—turning my accent up—I thought that seats controlled by the minority parties. I might just look at that a little. Just before the referendum, I arrived in New Zealand Until the last election, Winston Peters and New and, as is New Zealand’s wont, I was shunted on to a Zealand First showed the remarkable ability of political radio station to do a three-hour talk-in, and of course shoe-shuffling without so much as a blush, chopping the major thing being discussed was the impending and changing allegiances so as to be in government. referendum. Two things came out. The first was that the Under the last Labour Government, which was led by dislike of MPs at that stage in New Zealand was even Helen Clark, Winston Peters was rejected by his electorate, greater than it is here at the moment, and the belief was returned as a list MP and obtained power in the Labour that, in turning to MMP, it would have fewer MPs. Of Government as a Foreign Minister outside the Cabinet course, that was wrong. Secondly, I became very aware who did not take Cabinet responsibility. That was a that most of the people whom I spoke to on the streets ludicrous situation, but it happened under the system and on that three-hour radio programme did not that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby believes works. understand the system or what they were voting for and The result at the very last election was a National party just wanted a change for the sake of change. Government in coalition with minority representatives but not, fortunately, with New Zealand First. It did not work, of course. The first MMP Parliament in New Zealand increased the number of MPs from As I have said, in the original referendum New Zealand 99 to 120. Many New Zealanders were deluded by the voters were under the impression that, if they did not idea of “fair votes” and were unaware until the results like MMP, they could have a second referendum. of that first election came through that they were virtually Unfortunately, the only promise made in that direction guaranteed a hung Parliament. That hung Parliament was a review by a select committee, and of course had the usual horse trading, and people slowly began to “turkeys at Christmas” came into effect. As part of its realise that they had a Government for whom not one election manifesto, the current National party has promised single voter had voted—none of them voted for the a further referendum. However, it worries me that the Government they got. complications of the electoral system will again not be The second thing that hit people was the proliferation fully understood. Nevertheless, the result will be interesting. of minor and often obscure parties, which ranged from I found on a visit to New Zealand shortly after MMP the extreme left through to the extreme right. As ever had appeared in its first election that it was exceptionally with a hung Parliament, all those minorities had ambitions difficult to find anybody at all who would own up to of being the controlling minority member of a minority having voted for it, because people disliked it so much. Government—in other words, the tail that wagged the Although this country does not have proportional dog syndrome. representation, we have had recent cases of hung Parliaments; Parliaments where the Government have Mr. Austin Mitchell: I think that the hon. Gentleman been stitched together with minority support. Both the is bringing back a very biased report from New Zealand Conservative party and the Labour party have been because, first, all the minority parties came into being guilty of that. To my mind, none of those coalition before proportional representation was introduced. They Governments have been successful. were the result of party splits under the old first-past- the-post system. Secondly, the essence of his argument In these times in particular, I feel that we have to seems to be that New Zealanders were stupid, deluded retain the first-past-the-post system and hopefully single- or conned into voting for proportional representation. party Government. The economy in this country is dire Surely he cannot be saying that. and the situation in which a minority party wagged the dog and was unable to take difficult decisions would Sir Paul Beresford: The hon. Gentleman is right: I am mean doom for this country. not saying that. I am saying that the system was so complicated that it was extremely difficult for people to understand. The various arguments that were presented Mr. Joe Benton (in the Chair): I call John Mason. confused them, and some of them, particularly for the May I just point out to him, however, that we are fairer votes system, were basically wrong. hoping to start the winding-up speeches from 12 pm? 41WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 42WH

11.57 am has been mentioned, with the Greens, when two brought down the Scottish Budget, but they overplayed their John Mason (Glasgow, East) (SNP): Thank you, hand, and when the Budget eventually went through Mr. Benton. I think that it was unfortunate that the first with Labour support—and, I think, almost all-party Back Bencher to speak in the debate took 15 minutes support—the Greens were left nowhere, so a small out of the allotted 30. party like that is taking a lot of risks in acting in that If I can be brief, however, I just wanted to speak very way. much in favour of proportional representation, from the Scottish and Glasgow experience. I have been elected There was a step forward in 2007 with the local five times since 1998, which I suspect is more times than government elections in Scotland. I thank the Liberal Members here have been elected in the last 12 years. I Democrats for that achievement. In Glasgow we had have been elected four times under first past the post 79 councillors, but with 21 multi-member wards, and and once under single transferable vote, which was in a three or four members in each, there is a much better four-member ward. I remind Members here that, to be range of representation. elected in a four-member ward, someone needs 20 per cent. of the vote under STV, which largely excludes 12.1 pm smaller and minority parties. I would like to see five-member David Howarth (Cambridge) (LD): I welcome you to wards; I think that that is a better system. In a five-member the Chair, Mr. Amess. I thank the hon. Member for ward, someone would still have to pass the hurdle of Great Grimsby (Mr. Mitchell) for obtaining the debate. achieving 17 per cent. of the vote to be elected. He has been a supporter of proportional representation In January 1998, I was elected under the first-past-the- for a long time, and his enthusiasm is undimmed by the post system to Glasgow city council. I was the only years. He put the case in terms of fairness, and there is non-Labour person at either council or Westminster definitely a case for PR on those grounds, but there is level in the whole east end of the city, so the area was a also a case based on confidence in politics. To come bit of a one-party state. That is the danger of first past back to the point made by the hon. Member for Shrewsbury the post, that we end up with these one-party states. If and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), the current relevance someone has a good relationship with their councillor of the debate lies in the fact that we are in a political or their MP, that situation can be very good; if they crisis—a crisis of confidence in politics itself—and the have a bad relationship with them, the situation can be existing electoral system is part of the crisis. very bad and they have nowhere else to go. To deal first with fairness, hon. Members who support In 1999 in Glasgow, there were elections for 79 the first-past-the-post system are very fond of accusing councillors. Labour got approximately 50 per cent. of parties that might benefit from a different system of the vote, but took 74 of the 79 seats, giving them 93 per arguing from their own interest. Of course, that also cent. of the seats on the council. Meanwhile, the Scottish applies the other way around. Members who are here National party, which got about 30 per cent. of the vote, because of first past the post, but who would not be took only two seats and was the second largest party on here under the proportional system are also arguing the council. Even Labour councillors would admit that from their own interest. Fairness cannot be judged in that situation was not a success. There was no proper that way. It must be judged by other means, and the scrutiny in the council or in the committees, and my obvious way to do that is to imagine, as a thought colleague—my fellow SNP councillor—and I ran around experiment, a situation in which we did not know how trying to look like a crowd. popular our views would be with the electorate and had We started to have proportional representation in to choose an electoral system knowing only our own Scotland in the Scottish Parliament elections in 1999; views and no one else’s. In those circumstances, what that was a form of PR. Alternative vote is such a tiny system would be chosen: first past the post, or a step that it is hardly worth looking at. The Scottish proportional system? Parliament has this additional Member list system, Choosing first past the post means taking the risk of whereby a city such as Glasgow has 10 constituency one’s political views being excluded for ever and of MSPs and seven list Members. That system is not ideal; never having any representation in the legislature of the it still favours the constituency MSPs and creates a bit country. I cannot think of anyone who, faced by the of a two-tier system. However, it does mean that if question about fairness from behind the veil of ignorance, someone’s constituency MSP is not working for them, would choose first past the post. Perhaps some people they have the opportunity to go to a list Member. might be so convinced that strong government is important What has happened in practice in the Scottish Parliament that they would choose first past the post, despite the is that there are four larger parties, and so far we have risk that their own views would never have any influence had two coalitions and one minority Government. There on the legislature, but it would be an extraordinary is a tendency for decisions to be made with broader thing to do. People taking that view would probably support in the Parliament, with two parties, such as take the view that democracy itself might be excluded. Labour and the Liberal Democrats, or, now, with the Daniel Kawczynski: The hon. Gentleman suggests SNP and whatever party would give support. Labour that we were all taking our view for party political had to compromise to get Liberal Democrat support, reasons, but that is not the case. In the past 12 years of most notably in introducing PR for Scottish local Labour Governments, the Conservative party would government elections. have been much better off with a proportional voting system, yet despite that we want first past the post. [MR.DAVID AMESS in the Chair] The other argument has been that a small party could David Howarth: No. The Conservative party wants hold larger parties to ransom, but that has not been our first past the post because that is the only way that it can experience in Scotland. It appeared to be the case, as form a majority Government with a minority of the 43WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 44WH

[David Howarth] works; for every Israel, there is a Germany, and for every Italy, there is a Scandinavia. There are many vote. The idea that it is being generous about it is examples of successful, stable countries that use ridiculous. We need to get away from the idea that proportional systems. In any case, for Israel—a country fairness can be judged from a partisan point of view, that has been threatened existentially every moment and think about it from a non-partisan point of view. I since to came into existence—to have survived using PR am sure that from a non-partisan view, taking into is an example of PR’s success not its failure. account all our interests, fair-minded people would We have discussed the point that extremists get in at never choose first past the post as their electoral system. local level even with first past the post. As the percentage needed by the winning candidate drops, the chance of Mr. Donohoe: Surely, the hon. Gentleman was listening that happening increases. Moreover, if people feel excluded to what I said, which was that the Labour party in from a political system and unrepresented in Parliament, government gave away more power and influence, as a it breeds extremism. People have this the wrong way consequence of which we are now in the mire north of round: the failure to recognise the unrepresentative the border. In the party context, he would know, if he nature of this place breeds further extremism, and we was listening to me, that the Liberals, for other reasons, must do something about it. were opposed to the concept of proportional representation in 1921. All the alternative systems put forward maintain the constituency link in some way or another, apart from the extraordinary system used in European parliamentary David Howarth: It is also the case that the that elections, which is the worst of all systems, as the hon. Labour party was in favour of PR when it was founded Member for Great Grimsby said. In the additional and has since abandoned that view for national member system, half the seats are constituency seats. In Government. Let us get away from the history and stick STV, the constituencies are large, but because of the to the question of what is a fair system. I am sure that if way that the system works, individual Members have to we based our answer on a neutral point of view that got compete with one another in their constituencies to do away from party interest and if people thought about it their work better. If there is one disadvantage of STV, it honestly, we would not conclude that first past the post is that it would make Members concentrate so much on was fair. their constituencies that the kind of ministerial candidates My second point is about confidence. It is a crucial that the hon. Member for Great Grimsby mentioned point because we are in a crisis of confidence in the might be put off. That is why national politicians in political system. We have to ask ourselves whether we Ireland now and then suggest that STV should be can carry on with an electoral system in which Governments abandoned. The people would not allow that to happen; are very unpopular on the day that they are elected. The they are convinced that STV is the best system for them, current Government were elected with 35 per cent. of which is why it has won in all the referendums in Ireland the vote. Almost twice as many people voted against on the electoral system. them as for them. It is not surprising that the Government were unpopular from the start. Most Governments in The final point is one that always comes up from this country are unpopular. That unpopularity is part Conservative Members; it is always at the back of their of the crisis of confidence in politics, as people do not minds: if we had had PR in the 1980s, Mrs. Thatcher see their political views represented in the way that would never have become Prime Minister, and all the politics works nationally. radical reforms that she introduced would never have happened. I do not think that that is true; many of The hon. Member for Great Grimsby mentioned the those reforms would have happened eventually, in a 1950s. There was a sense then that the main purpose of different way, with greater consensus and less social the electoral system was simply to choose a Government rupture than they did. We must ask ourselves whether from the two options available. It did not really matter we want further electoral coups d’état by minorities. Is how unrepresentative the Parliament was. However, the that how to unify the country? Or given the crisis of idea that the House of Commons is here simply to confidence in politics that we face, do we need politics choose a Government cannot survive the massive reduction that is more consensual and based more on debate and in support for the winning party. The electoral college agreement? We cannot have that under first past the notion of what the Commons is for cannot survive the post. present situation in which the winning party is so unpopular at the start. We need to get away from the idea that the only 12.10 pm purpose of the Commons is to act as an electoral college and that we all may as well go away once it has Mrs. Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest) (Con): The hon. done that. We need to come round to the idea that the Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) forgets that purpose of the House of Commons is to be a representative we entirely applaud what Lady Thatcher did in the assembly. The first virtue of a representative assembly is 1980s. A strong Government, however unpopular in that it represents the political views of the electorate. At some parts of the country, put this country back on its present, it does not and it cannot regain any place in feet and made it possible for us to do what we do today public confidence as long as that is the case. as a country and an active participant on the world stage. But let us put that aside. The arguments against PR always come down to its not working in Israel or Italy and its helping extremists and damaging the constituency link, and a Conservative The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael argument, which goes back to Mrs. Thatcher, is that Wills): I applaud strong Government doing what is consensus politics is a bad thing. None of those arguments needed to get the country back on its feet after a 45WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 46WH difficult economic crisis. Does the hon. Lady applaud Mrs. Laing: I appreciate that we have reduced the this Government for doing exactly that in response to number of Scottish Members from 72 to 59. I agree the world economic crisis? with having done that. Nevertheless, throughout the rest of the United Kingdom, there is not parity of Mrs. Laing: No, I do not applaud what the Government representation. have done, but I applaud the fact that we have a strong Government, in electoral terms, and that those of us Mr. Wills: The hon. Lady is very generous in giving who are against them at least know what they are doing. way. I will keep my remarks short and give way to her We have certainty, and I applaud that. many times when I stand up to speak formally. Does she I congratulate the hon. Member for Great Grimsby recognise that some, if not most, of the disparity between (Mr. Mitchell) on securing this debate. He is an individual, different constituencies is due to the deplorable lack of as I said earlier, and I mean that as a compliment. I registration among a large number of voters—more congratulate him for adhering to his principles through than 3 million people, according to the Electoral the decades. This is an important debate; indeed, it is a Commission—who are eligible to vote but are not registered perpetual one. For democracy to be vibrant, we must to do so? It is not possible to look at genuine parity continually debate electoral reform. However, he based until we have a universal registration of all those who his argument on the fact, as he says, that we need a are eligible to vote. referendum on proportional representation on 6 May or on whatever date the general election might fall. Mrs. Laing: The Minister and I have had this I put it to the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members conversation across the Dispatch Box on many occasions, that we do not need a referendum. On whatever day we and I agree that the comprehensiveness of the register is hold a general election, the people of the United Kingdom a sine qua non of having a fair and equal system. That will know that one party—the Liberal Democrats—has is included in Conservative policy and outlook on this made proportional representation one of the main planks subject, too. of its manifesto promises. If more people throughout the United Kingdom vote in the general election for the I will be brief now in my main remarks. I congratulate party in favour of proportional representation than for my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham all the parties against it, that party will become a (Daniel Kawczynski) and the hon. Member for Central Government and can introduce proportional representation Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe) on the eloquence with which at its leisure. That will be our referendum. they outlined the confusion in Scotland and quite rightly brought to our attention the problems that have occurred there because of the different types of voting system, David Howarth: Is the hon. Lady saying that if the which are sometimes all used on the same day, thereby Liberal Democrats were to win the next election with causing confusion. I disagree with the hon. Member for 35 per cent. of the vote, we could change the electoral Glasgow, East (John Mason), who, although he has system without a referendum? I thank her in advance fought and won many elections, still has not quite got for her support. the point that a fair system has to be a simple system. My hon. Friend the Member for Mole Valley (Sir Paul Mrs. Laing: Yes, the hon. Gentleman is right. If the Beresford) has very eloquently told us what he discovered Liberal Democrats have a majority of votes in the in New Zealand, and I tend to believe him. He is our United Kingdom, or more votes than the parties against best link to New Zealand, and he is absolutely correct proportional representation— to say that, under its system, the people got a Government whom no one voted for, because they were a Government Mr. Wills: More seats. brought about by bargaining after the event, and the voters had no part in choosing them. To have a Government Mrs. Laing: No, I said more votes, but it does not who are truly based on the three principles that government matter which way one looks at it. If the Liberal Democrats should be of the people, by the people and for the get either more votes or more seats than all the other people, there must be three basic principles: those who parties that are against proportional representation, are elected must be accountable to the electorate; the they will be in a position to form a Government and go system must be certain and simple; and it must give ahead with their plans. power to the people and not to political parties. First, on accountability, a voter must know when he John Mason: Does the hon. Lady think that there or she goes into the polling booth not only how to elect should be a closer link between seats and votes? a person but how to get rid of a person. It is a basic tenet of accountability that if we have a representative whom we do not want for reasons of ideology, personality Mrs. Laing: Yes, of course there should. That is why or whatever, there must be a way of getting rid of that it is Conservative policy to reduce the number of Members person. Under a proportional system with a list, that of Parliament and to equalise the size of constituencies. cannot be done by the voter. It can only be done by the Votes in Scotland are not equal to votes in the rest of party hacks. I, of course, love the party hacks, but that the United Kingdom, because of the differential size of is another matter. They take power away from the voter. the constituencies. The unique link between the representative and those who are represented must remain. In parliamentary Mr. Donohoe: I must update the hon. Lady: Scotland terms, it is the unique link between the Member of now has the same numbers as the rest of the constituencies Parliament and the constituency. At other levels of in the UK. government, that unique link must always be there 47WH Proportional Representation1 DECEMBER 2009 Proportional Representation 48WH

[Mrs. Laing] the crisis, as indeed are other parties and the Government. One can look at a whole range of constitutional reforms, because it gives us accountability. Only through including the open primaries that the Conservative party accountability can we have a democracy that works and has rightly pioneered. In my view, there is a lot of merit represents the people. in what the Conservatives have done in that area. Secondly, I agree with the Minister that the system However, to look at all those constitutional reform must be certain, and therefore simple. Much as I detest measures and then exclude any discussion of the system most of what the current Labour Government have for electing Members of Parliament is bizarre. The done, I certainly accept that the people have spoken system should be looked at as part of the constitutional very definitely and certainly for the past 12 years. When crisis that we face. The system is so important because it the people have spoken, we know what they have said, is about how power is distributed, and how power is although I hope that they will soon change their minds. distributed makes possible the answers to all the questions Therefore, the Government, however wrong they might that the constituents of the hon. Member for Shrewsbury have been on many things they have done, have been and Atcham raise with him weekly in his surgeries. absolutely legitimate. People have to know what the effect of casting their vote will be and also the effect of Daniel Kawczynski: In my speech I was saying that I changing their minds—let us hope that they will do that wanted to have the status quo left as it is, with a in the near future. first-past-the-post system. According to the media, the Labour Government will not have a referendum on PR Finally, a truly valuable system of democracy gives on the date of the next election, but will put it in their power to the people and not to political parties. The manifesto and have a referendum should they be re-elected. hon. Member for Great Grimsby is an individual, not a Will the Minister give me a pledge that he will try to party hack. He is the perfect example of someone who change the voting system not at the fag end of a is elected by first past the post, because of his ability to Parliament, but only when his party has a fresh mandate? stand up for his constituents and his principles, regardless of his party—[Interruption.] Well, sometimes regardless Mr. Wills: The Prime Minister has made it clear that of his party and to good effect, and regardless of what we are pledged to bring forward a referendum on the the Government at Westminster say. It is the individual system in the next Parliament; there is no question of in the House of Commons who makes this a great having it on the date of the next general election. My democracy, and that is possible only through a first-past- hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby seems to the-post, straight, simple and constituency-linked system. think that that will be on 6 May, but I have no such To tinker with that for the purposes of the current advance knowledge. None the less, by the middle of fashion, the prevailing wisdom in the press or the economy next year, there will be a general election. It is simply would be wrong. Our democracy is more valuable than not possible to have the referendum, or any referendum, any of those things, and we must protect it by protecting on that date and nor should it be. first past the post. This should not be a matter of party political calculation and, more crucially, it should not be perceived as such. 12.22 pm Such a subject is fundamentally important. It is about the wiring of our constitution, and should not be seen The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Mr. Michael as—or actually be—the subject of partisan political Wills): Welcome to the Chair, Mr. Amess. I congratulate manoeuvring. If we had the referendum on the same my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby day as the election, there would be the risk that the two (Mr. Mitchell): as the hon. Member for Epping Forest things would get muddled up, and that is not the right (Mrs. Laing) just said, he is living proof that the current way of doing things. As a Government, it is our settled system of electing Members of Parliament produces view that any change in the electoral system should be not only the cloistered, faceless, apparatchiks he so subject to a referendum by the British people. This is derided, but thoughtful, passionate, principled individuals their voting system and their constitution. It is not for such as him. I congratulate him on securing this genuinely Members of Parliament alone to decide on the matter. important debate. Mr. Donohoe: I agree entirely with the Minister, but The hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel will he also agree that as part of that debate, we should Kawczynski) seemed to be facing two ways at once. On be considering voter turnout? the one hand, he was deeply worried about the prospect of change in the electoral system, so he obviously Mr. Wills: I agree entirely with my hon. Friend. Such thinks it an important part of our constitutional things must be considered together; we are looking at arrangements. On the other, however, he spent a lot of only one part of the picture. He is absolutely right in time saying that it was not important and that Members suggesting that participation is central. There are many of Parliament ought to concentrate on the sorts of views about why participation is declining, and we must things that his constituents were raising with him. However, consider the issue across the piece, as we are doing. We as the hon. Member for Cambridge (David Howarth) have already taken measures to increase turnout and we rightly said, those two things are not mutually exclusive, are continuing to look at different ways of voting. I will but part and parcel of the same issue. shortly publish an electoral strategy that looks in principle The issue is so important, and my hon. Friend the at different ways in which we can address that issue and Member for Great Grimsby is correct to bring it up at many others. this point because we are facing a crisis in the legitimacy We have had a lengthy debate. In the few minutes of our constitutional arrangements. All parties recognise remaining, I want to pay tribute to the passionate that. Conservative Front-Bench Members clearly recognise speeches that we have heard from all parts of the it and are coming up with all sorts of ways to address Chamber, from the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and 49WH Proportional Representation 1 DECEMBER 2009 50WH

Atcham and his colleague in the all-party group, my Seaside Town Regeneration hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe), and from the hon. Members for Mole 12.30 pm Valley (Sir Paul Beresford), for Glasgow, East (John Mason), for Cambridge and for Epping Forest. The Mr. Hugo Swire (East Devon) (Con): Nowhere in the different points of view expressed reflect the importance United Kingdom is further than 70 miles from the of the subject. No doubt we will continue this debate in sea—it has been a much loved resource for holidaying the months ahead. Britons over the years—yet our coastal towns, once famous holiday destinations, have suffered a steady In the time remaining, let me caution all hon. Members decline over the past 25 years. Our seaside towns have about the use of language in such a context. Terms such not benefited from the urban renaissance of the past as “fairness” are not objective terms; they are relative. decade, and the national regeneration initiatives have The hon. Member for Cambridge made much play of overlooked the problems that they face. his notion of fairness, but I ask him to consider this point. What is so fair about a system in which a party The recent recession, ironically, has seen a resurgence that year after year, decade after decade, gets simply in the popularity of our seaside resorts. Statistics from 5 per cent. of the vote—as happens in Germany, which Visit England show that in July 2009, the number of he holds up as a model of the system—determines the holiday trips taken by UK residents to England was up complexion of the Government? That is axiomatically by an impressive 40 per cent. compared with July 2008. not fair. Despite the latest revival, the Government’s understanding of coastal issues is poor and, as a result, regeneration David Howarth: The situation in Germany is not like efforts are badly co-ordinated across many Departments, that. The grand coalition, which has just ended, shows which have a role to play in the process. the other option. The hon. Member for Glasgow, East The significant urban focus in the Government’s (John Mason) pointed out that small parties cannot get regeneration and renewal agenda has exacerbated the their way when the larger parties agree, but the Minister challenges for coastal areas, as opportunities to invest, is assuming that larger parties never agree, which is an aid and restructure seaside towns have simply been extraordinary thing to assume. overlooked. Even when funding opportunities, such as the single regeneration budget rounds, the neighbourhood Mr. Wills: I ask the hon. Gentleman to look at the renewal fund and the neighbourhood element of the history of post-war Germany and see what percentage safer and stronger communities fund, are made available, of the time has been occupied by a grand coalition in they have not been adapted to take account of the power. He will find that history proves my point rather specific characteristics of seaside towns. than his. All I am saying is that we need to be extremely As the Communities and Local Government Committee’s careful about using terms such as “fairness”. Personally, inquiry into coastal towns demonstrated, a complex I prefer “legitimacy”, because in the end it is the legitimacy range of issues faces such areas, including changes in of the system—not our view but the British people’s tourism trends, the seasonality of the seaside economy, view of legitimacy—that really counts. frequent high levels of deprivation, coastal erosion, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that a system in physical isolation and high levels of immigration of which a Government can be elected with an absolute older people and emigration of younger people, which majority, with about 25 per cent. of the electorate places pressure on social and community services. supporting them, is not sustainable in the long term. It Tourism is vital to the UK. Deloitte has estimated is a system that has persisted and is likely to persist after that the wider worth of the visitor economy is the next general election, whichever party wins. £114 billion, and that tourism attracts £20 billion a year Unfortunately, part of the problem is the low turnout, in overseas earnings. It employs 8 per cent. of the work as my hon. Friend the Member for Central Ayrshire force and represents at least the fifth largest sector of rightly pointed out. We have to look at different ways in the national economy. However, over the past 10 years, which we can inject greater legitimacy into the system. the UK’s growth in inbound tourism has underperformed compared with global competitors. National statistics indicate that if we had grown our international visitor economy at a rate that matched the increase in world tourism over the same period, the additional visits would have generated £3.2 billion more annually for the economy and 75,000 extra jobs. Does the Minister concede that that is a serious missed opportunity? All British seaside resorts were developed as tourist destinations in the years after the first world war. The accommodation constructed at the seaside was, when built, better than what most people had in their homes. It was modern, and resorts were, by the standards of the time, exotic places. However, by the 1970s and 80s, continental resorts had developed, and over the past 30 years, the traditional bucket-and-spade tourism industry declined in the face of competition from low-cost European package holidays. Resorts cannot rejuvenate their tourism appeal without analysing which areas of the towns are crucial to tourists and then engaging in a determined programme of 51WH Seaside Town Regeneration1 DECEMBER 2009 Seaside Town Regeneration 52WH

[Mr. Hugo Swire] and services to make the UK tourism industry internationally competitive. Not only will changing from improvement and renewal. Initiatives for reinvigorating 100 per cent. relief on capital expenditure to the proposed our seaside towns ideally should come from local authorities 10 per cent. wear and tear allowance mean that the with private participation, with the Government setting quality and quantity of the fittings provided will be a framework that enables that. Seaside destinations reduced and there will be a lower level of maintenance, tend to have significant infrastructure costs in excess of but immediate barriers to entry are being created, owners those that are borne by an inland area. The maintenance of holiday lettings companies could go out of business, of coastal defences and the increasing risk of flooding— and, ironically, farmers previously encouraged to diversify never more appropriate for those of us who have seen into tourism activities and holiday lets will now be the front page of today’s edition of The Times—are just disincentivised by the very Government who encouraged two examples of the enormous threat to inward investment to them to take such action in the first place. If ever and development, particularly from the private sector, there were a lack of joined-up Government thinking, which is reluctant to go into areas that might be threatened that is it. Nor has the change in taxation legislation by coastal erosion or flooding. been subjected to rural proofing, as the Government For too long, there has been a lack of recognition of promised would happen to new taxation legislation. extra infrastructure burdens faced by seaside resorts. Will the Minister take the opportunity of the debate Instead, they are left to the local authorities to fund to respond to the Federation of Small Businesses, which and, with squeezed budgets, are often forgotten, overlooked today in the papers has called for the Government to or put simply at the bottom of the “to do” list. Yet it is “Give us a Break” in respect of the changed legislation? only after the public realm infrastructure receives investment He will no doubt be aware that the chairman of the that the private sector will be willing to invest. FSB called for that, and I look forward to his response It would be appropriate now to declare that my wife to the debate. has recently become the owner of a holiday-let property The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has in Cornwall. The hotel building allowance has been not given tourism the attention that it needs and deserves. curtailed or removed within the tax system, which is Tourism is ignored by Departments that have more ever more complex, expensive to comply with and clout in the great scheme of things. The Department for demanding on cash flow. In April’s Budget, the Chancellor Culture, Media and Sport is simply not seen within the announced the potentially devastating changes to the Government as a defender of tourism’s interests or a tax rules governing the letting of furnished holiday natural consultee. As current trends are showing greater property in the United Kingdom. personal responsibility towards individual carbon footprints, In the south-west, we have the greatest proportion of and altered holiday choices based on ecological rather holiday letting accommodation and the change in the than purely financial priorities, the error of the taxation will really threaten that industry. While the Government’s ways in changing FHL rules can only be self-catering sector is an increasingly significant component brought more sharply into focus. of the UK holiday market, generating revenue of £1.8 billion English tourist destinations now have a fresh advantage per annum or almost 13 per cent. of all UK domestic over their foreign competitors, and an opportunity to holiday expenditure, property owners will from April capture new markets. The coastal holiday experience 2010 face a greater tax liability in operating their holiday can satisfy sustainable lifestyle aspirations, offering locally letting businesses. Along with budget hotels, camping and organically produced food, and health benefits and caravanning, the sector is one of the growth areas associated with outdoor activities in the natural of the UK tourism industry. environment. The Government are being presented with The Treasury estimates that changes to the furnished opportunity after opportunity to take advantage of holiday lettings rules will damage the tourism industry trends and changes in behaviour, attitudes and spending by just £20 million, yet research by the Tourism Alliance habits, yet time and again, those chances are squandered. suggests an overall reduction in tourism spend of Transport infrastructure is another key issue that £200 million and a loss of 4,500 jobs in rural and limits seaside regeneration. The Government’s failure to seaside economies. At a time of recession and deliver on major transport projects for seaside destinations unemployment, what are the Government playing at by significantly affects their growth and competitiveness introducing such punitive measures? and adds cost to every journey. Coastal areas suffered disproportionately under a previous Labour Government Mr. Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD): The hon. Gentleman as a result of the Beeching axe when branch lines such makes a powerful point. The tax system is disadvantageous as the one to Sidmouth in my constituency were cut. to the UK tourism industry, particularly as at the The Government must now ensure that all tourist centres moment our major competitors, Germany and France, are well served by public transport to reduce as far as are reducing further their VAT rate on hotel possible the use of individual vehicles. It must be accepted accommodation. that tourism involves transport, which needs to be made not only ecologically friendly but cost-effective for the Mr. Swire: I shall continue on taxation specifically, traveller. but overall both the countries to which the hon. Gentleman It has been evident over the past 15 years that, rather alluded are backing their tourism industry in a way that than sitting in endless traffic jams on their way to the our Government are not. I hope to give the Minister an seaside, UK residents have chosen to fly to overseas opportunity to deny that and explain why I am wrong. destinations, at the considerable expense of our seaside One of the Government’s core goals for their tourism communities and economy. The Government must step responsibilities under the Development of Tourism Act up to the plate and address that matter urgently. Specific 1969 has been to increase the quality of tourism products problems affecting tourism also include the inconsistent 53WH Seaside Town Regeneration1 DECEMBER 2009 Seaside Town Regeneration 54WH level of support made available for tourism development been particularly influential in fostering a market of by the Government and their agencies. That includes high-spending visitors from London, who come to eat support for marketing destinations, the development of at the restaurant and then enjoy the shops, galleries and skills appropriate to 21st century destinations, and business sea front in the rest of the town. The recently diversified growth. There appear, however, to be encouraging local economy brings all-year-round tourism, ensuring developments in that regard, with the British Resorts a more stable economy and better job security for local and Destinations Association and Visit England currently residents. A similar experience has occurred in Cornwall developing a seaside resorts futures document, which with Rick Stein’s restaurants in Padstow, Jamie Oliver’s will emanate from the new England strategy in 2010. Fifteen Cornwall at Watergate bay, and most recently Yet the funding provided to Visit England is only £13 million the Hix restaurant in Lyme Regis, which I was lucky and about to be cut significantly. That is a pitiful enough to try for myself. amount and resources must be increased so that they Central Government investment in culture, arts and are commensurate with the size of the task. heritage is a vital and innovative way of creating a Central Government should give coastal towns an diversified and sustainable seaside economy. I should, opportunity to address their decline and renew and therefore, welcome the Government commitment of improve their tourist facilities. Customers increasingly £45 million over three years to a sea change fund. demand quality of service and facilities, and coastal Indeed, as the shadow Minister for Plymouth, I was towns are well placed to meet that demand, in part heartened by the £100,000 to help develop plans for because of their high quality historic fabric. For visitors relocating the Plymouth arts centre down on the Hoe. who have come to enjoy the beauty of the coast, but However, tourism is not a by-product of outreach, need a base to stay overnight, a built environment that cultural-grant programmes, which are not a quick-fix matches the quality of the natural environment is essential, solution. and the development of a high quality hotel and leisure sector can help stimulate a modern visitor economy. Investment is probably the key issue holding back seaside regeneration. The lack of awareness and The Government must also play their part by reducing appreciation of the problems associated with seaside the burdens of red tape and bureaucracy. The planning destinations has led to poorly conceived policy interventions system needs to become less process orientated. The such as the sea change programme, while the incentive local development framework and regional spatial strategies structures associated with the regional development have been too long in their formation, and that leads to agencies have tended to focus the investment on easy-win unnecessary tensions between planning authorities and structural projects, rather than tackling the more difficult developers and investors. I am cynical about the regional underlying social issues, which hold back growth and spatial strategy and welcome my party’s pledge to get development in such areas. rid of it. There is a need, particularly in current circumstances, to ensure that the public sector works to As a result of decades of decline and neglect, many facilitate development and not delay it. seaside destinations suffer from high levels of deprivation. Bed-and-breakfast premises are particularly vulnerable According to the Communities and Local Government to the increased regulatory burden. Guidelines are urgently Committee report, 21 of the 88 most deprived local needed for local enforcement officers in fire regulations authorities are in coastal towns. Such problems require and food hygiene to ensure that they carry out their urgent central Government intervention, so that those enforcement duties proportionately, in a genuinely risk-based destinations can move forward. way, and not in a way that places a disproportionate In addition, the out-migration of younger households, compliance burden on small businesses. Fire regulations, to which I alluded earlier, and the growth in the care in particular, affect a number of bed-and-breakfast home industry have created a demographic imbalance, owners in my constituency. I have tabled several putting a higher burden on social services. In fact, parliamentary questions about the matter, and wonder 21 per cent. of residents of seaside towns are over 65, whether the Minister has received similar representations, compared with the national average of 16 per cent. and what his opinion is. Efforts must be made to draw young people back to Marinas, which have an important role to play in coastal areas. In Falmouth, a new further education local regeneration schemes, are also burdened by red campus is diversifying the local economy, increasing tape and regulation. That needs to be explored, particularly employment and vitality in the town. Student numbers in the south-west. There is no marina between Portland at the campus are expected to reach around 30,000 and and the constituency of the hon. Member for Torbay will provide a major boost to the local economy. That is (Mr. Sanders). There is nothing along my coast, and the exactly the type of innovative regeneration of coastal Government would do well to consider a marina initiative. towns that is needed. I would like to see more colleges in coastal towns dedicated to training young people in the Heritage can be a dynamic resource for regenerating needs and requirements of the hospitality industry. coastal towns. The restoration of historic buildings to accommodate new uses can stimulate new economic The extraordinary, abandoned fiasco of the sectors, such as arts and cultural industries. Examples Government’s casino policy almost suggested that the include the successful restoration of the De La Warr only panacea from Government to address the ills of a pavilion in Bexhill-on-Sea, the development of Tate St. seaside town’s deprivation would be to bung a casino in Ives, Bournemouth square, the Whitby abbey heritage the middle of it. At the time I had the honour of being centre and the Tern project in Morecambe. Offering the shadow Secretary of State for Culture, Media and visitors a broader range of attractions, with significant Sport and we put that one to bed for them. The policy increases in spend and overnight stays, has a knock-on seemed to serve no other purpose than simply costing effect on retail and restaurants in the area. The Royal time, money and effort on the part of all the authorities Oyster Stores restaurant in Whitstable has, for example, that bid. 55WH Seaside Town Regeneration1 DECEMBER 2009 Seaside Town Regeneration 56WH

[Mr. Swire] some of my proposals would cost money, but others would be cost-neutral and require only a commitment The Treasury should now concentrate on working by the Government that hitherto we have not seen. The with the industry to improve the existing amusement clock is ticking on the Government, but it is not too late machine licence duty system to deliver efficiencies for in the day for them to give some kind of demonstration Government and business. The maximum jackpot levels of their commitment to the restoration of our coastal for amusement machines should be reviewed, remembering towns. that higher jackpots would mean higher levels of duty. In order to succeed and flourish, seaside destinations 12.50 pm must be year-round attractions, and one of the greatest challenges is to extend the tourist season. One of the The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for most important factors in achieving that is the development Communities and Local Government (Mr. Ian Austin): of the meetings and conferences industry. In the 1970s Although I enjoyed the culinary tour of the coastal and ’80s most of the major seaside resorts were significant towns of England that the hon. Member for East Devon players in the conference market, but with investment (Mr. Swire) gave, I will disappoint him. What I found being ploughed into our former industrial cities from extraordinary and disappointing about his speech is the the 1980s onwards, competition to the resorts grew in fact that, although Westminster Hall debates are normally parallel with the decline and impoverishment of their non-partisan and constructive discussions about people’s infrastructures. Over the past 20 years, we have witnessed concerns, today we heard calls for more spending on a number of resort destinations pulling out of the regeneration, more access to finance for coastal areas, conference market altogether, because their offering is more colleges, more students, more spending for transport, no longer appropriate to the market’s needs, while others tourism and Visit England, and at the same time lower are struggling to remain competitive. If seaside resorts taxes. He might think this unworthy, but he should try are to continue to be successful, the necessary investment coming here to explain that. must be made in the transport and local infrastructures What the hon. Gentleman has done is set out eloquently that support business tourism. the Opposition’s approach to economic policy in general, Obviously, the major player in any effort to rejuvenate which is to make all sorts of commitments while calling seaside towns and provide the necessary cultural injection for lower taxes and not explaining how any of them will is local government. However, local authorities are not be paid for. It has certainly been disappointing to sit always able or inclined to take a meaningful lead in the here and listen to a party political rant dressed up as a area, owing to funding restrictions and the lack of serious discussion of his constituents’ concerns. incentives to promote tourism. Tourism promotion is a I will try to deal with some of the points that the hon. non-statutory function for local authorities and, with Gentleman made, but if I miss anything I will ensure increasing pressure on budgets, it tends to be the first that he receives a letter on the subject. He is right that activity that is cut. Given the inconsistent understanding seaside towns have an important role in regional and of coastal issues and the pressure on public finances, local economies, along with other towns, cities and there is increased need for local government to be communities, and we want them to thrive and prosper. encouraged to adopt entrepreneurial approaches to the Many seaside towns are desirable locations and many use of its assets and the range of its powers to take people want to live there—not only those reaching things forward. retirement age, but younger people—because they offer There is no dedicated national policy statement relating an attractive environment, a good quality of life and to coastal towns and that must be changed. For many varied opportunities for leisure and recreation. years, until the mid-1960s, our seaside resorts were a Seaside towns are still important holiday destinations. major destination for domestic tourism. Since then the Despite the diatribe of complaints to which we have just financial and physical decline of what were once attractive been subjected, in July alone domestic tourist trips holiday destinations has simply been overlooked. Many nationally were up 20 per cent. on last year’s figures, coastal towns are surrounded by some of the most and seaside towns will clearly have benefited from that. outstanding natural environment Britain has to offer. It is difficult to generalise about seaside communities, In my own constituency of East Devon, not only are given their very different economic, social and physical there beautiful beaches but the Jurassic coast, a UNESCO circumstances. There are big contrasts in the issues they world heritage site. We should rightly be proud of our face. There are resorts on the south coast, such as natural and historic assets, and respect them as a worthy Bournemouth, Brighton and Poole, where the housing part of the future and our 21st-century tourism appeal. market and local economy are more buoyant and diverse, A 2006 study for the World Travel and Tourism but which are still affected by changing trends in tourism. Council predicted that on present trends the UK would Others, such as Blackpool and Scarborough, have greater lose a further fifth of global market share over the next dependence on the traditional seaside tourist economy. 10 years. One of the reasons for the unfulfilled potential Some areas have a high percentage of houses in multiple of tourism and our coastal towns is the Government’s occupation, sometimes in poor condition. Some areas failure to appreciate how important those towns are to have strong and successful ingrained tourism industries the UK, and particularly to England. while others have a declining tourist trade. Some areas, I hope that the Minister will use the time remaining such as Brighton and Southend, have large numbers of to answer some of the questions and not simply say that people commuting to London, and others have higher what I have proposed requires increased money and numbers of people on benefits. that the Opposition are committed to spending no extra All those features present different challenges and money, because that would be a cheap run for him. I opportunities for different communities, and clearly hope that he will be worthier than that. I concede that there is no magic bullet for every area and no simple 57WH Seaside Town Regeneration1 DECEMBER 2009 Seaside Town Regeneration 58WH solution that can be imposed from the centre. Instead, and seaside towns. The RDA for Yorkshire and the solutions can emerge only from detailed knowledge and Humber, for example, has a renaissance towns and understanding of the challenges and opportunities faced cities programme that includes several seaside towns, by each resort. including Bridlington and Scarborough. The RDA for Over the past two years, the Department for the south-west has supported seaside towns from the Communities and Local Government has funded two market and coastal towns initiative, so I do not accept studies of larger and smaller seaside towns, undertaken the hon. Gentleman’s argument that coastal communities by Sheffield Hallam university. Those have explored in have not benefited from any of the additional expenditure depth the socio-economic issues facing individual seaside that the Government have delivered. towns and the need for better evidence to inform the To make RDAs even more effective, we are bringing wider debate. A key conclusion of those studies is that together their economic role and the spatial planning our seaside communities still have strong appeal and function in single regional strategies. Those will help to great potential. There is no doubt that those areas are ensure that economic development, housing, planning changing and improving the quality of their services to and transport are better aligned towards achieving residents, tourists and visitors alike. sustainable economic growth to benefit all parts of a region, including the coast. The Government support seaside towns through a range of mainstream policies to boost their performance Since 2003, RDAs have included tourism in their and to deliver improvements in services for their corporate plans and regional economic strategies, both communities. As for overall financial support, we have as an activity in its own right and mainstreaming it into delivered the first ever three-year settlement for local their other economic considerations. RDAs are also authorities and fulfilled the Government’s promise to working closely with regional tourist boards in the provide financial stability to local government, which development of regional economic strategies, drawing has been more important than ever over the past 12 months. on their wealth of knowledge on how seaside resorts fit in with the regional tourism economy. On 13 November, the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government announced additional funding In addition to their strategic responsibility for and for recipients of working neighbourhoods funds to investment in tourism, RDAs are aware of the enable them to do more to reduce persistent unemployment. interdependence of seaside resorts and their rural Some of the most deprived coastal authorities, including hinterlands, and should work with resorts to take advantage Blackpool, Great Yarmouth and Hastings, will benefit. of their value. The Future Jobs Fund is creating jobs, apprenticeships Through multi-area agreements, a number of coastal and training opportunities for young people in Thanet, authorities and their partners are taking a much more Brighton and Hove, Cornwall and other coastal areas. active role in leading economic development and The Government’s increased support to the regional regeneration at a sub-regional level. Of the 15 MAAs improvement efficiency partnerships is helping councils signed since July 2008, eight include coastal authorities. in coastal and other areas to meet their local targets and The Bournemouth, Dorset and Poole partnership, for priorities. In the south-west, for example, the RIEP is example, is focusing on improving skills levels, transport undertaking work on asset management and economic and sustainable growth. The Fylde Coast partnership, development and regeneration. which covers Blackpool, Wyre, Fylde and Lancashire county, has a focus on coastal infrastructure, tourism, Despite the very real and often severe problems faced skills and the public realm. by many seaside towns, we can be confident about their Some coastal towns have established economic future if all those involved—central Government, local development companies to increase capacity to deliver government, the private sector, and regional and local economic regeneration. As the hon. Gentleman knows, partners—work towards a common goal to maximise the Plymouth City Development Company was launched their opportunities. in 2008 and is working in partnership with the city Regional development agencies are helping to ensure council, the private sector, the South West of England that seaside towns in their regions achieve their full Regional Development Agency and the Homes and economic potential through their regional economic Communities Agency to ensure that public spending strategies. A single regeneration budget, about which can be used to deliver the city’s ambitious plans. That the hon. Gentleman complained, is now part of the demonstrates a number of the ways in which this single budget for RDAs and benefits coastal communities Government are working with partners, including the as much as anywhere else. All coastal RDAs now have RDAs, right across the country to improve services and regional economic strategies that take account of coastal increase expenditure in coastal communities. 59WH 1 DECEMBER 2009 Super-strength Lager 60WH

Super-strength Lager I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but my question still stands: is it not irresponsible of the 12.59 pm Department of Health to ask the consumer to drink responsibly yet allow the sale of a drink in a can that Martin Linton (Battersea) (Lab): I am sorry if I am invites them to drink irresponsibly? Does the Department slightly breathless, but my watch is a few minutes slow. I of Health expect the consumer to take a 500 ml or have two very limited objectives in this debate. The first 4.5-unit can, solemnly pour out the relevant number of is to persuade the Minister— units—455 ml if they are a man, 335 ml if they are a The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil woman—and throw the rest away? Does the Department Hope): Would it be helpful if I intervened? not see that the sale of 4.5-unit cans undermines its own advice to drink no more than four units, or three for Martin Linton: No, I will be all right. My first objective women, a day? That is why I want the Minister to ban is to persuade the Minister that it would be a good idea 500 ml cans. I mean not a voluntary agreement—I fear to limit the size of cans of super-strength lager. The that that would not work—but a ban on half-litre cans second is to persuade him that it would be a good idea by law and a provision limiting containers to the maximum to increase their price to discourage their use as the recommended daily intake. Most supermarkets—certainly cheapest way of getting drunk. Last week, I put those my own local supermarket—are already selling only the two points in a topical question to his colleague, my 440 ml cans of super-strength lager, which contain four hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Gillian Merron), units. However, many off-licences and small corner who has ministerial responsibility for public health; I shops sell the larger cans and will often sell them at a am sure that this Minister was there. She gave me a lower price than is charged at the supermarkets. beautifully crafted reply—but it was not, I fear, a My second objective, which may be far more challenging straightforward yes. but more important, is to persuade the Chancellor of I secured this Westminster Hall debate to invite the the Exchequer to increase the tax on super-strength Department of Health to engage more fully with the lagers and ciders, which I am defining for these purposes issues and to tease out a fuller answer to the questions; I as anything over 6 per cent. I recognise that that is a am sure that Westminster Hall debates were introduced decision for the Chancellor, but he will never introduce for just such a purpose. As I told the public health a tax of that kind without a strong recommendation Minister, a can of super-strength lager carries a voluntary from the Department of Health. I have addressed that health message from the drinks industry asking consumers objective to the Department of Health, because the first to “enjoy responsibly” or “please drink responsibly”. It step must be for it to persuade the Chancellor that a tax also carries a warning, which was put there last year at needs to be introduced for health reasons. the behest of one of her predecessors at the Department, that the can contains 4.5 units of alcohol. The first thing to do is to establish whether a price rise would reduce consumption. We already have plenty I do not need to tell the Minister that the maximum of evidence. The World Health Organisation states: recommended daily intake of alcohol, according to his own Department, is three to four units for a man and “There is indisputable evidence that the price of alcohol matters. two to three units for a woman. A can is a single-serve If the price of alcohol goes up, alcohol-related harm goes down.” container and is intended, once opened, to be drunk The British Medical Association states: straight away. One cannot screw the top back on or put the cork back in; even if one could, it would go flat, “There is strong and consistent evidence that price increases result in reduced consumption.” warm and totally undrinkable. A letter from one of the Minister’s predecessors, my Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman right hon. Friend the Member for Bristol, South (Dawn raises an important and controversial subject. Does he Primarolo), has stated that evidence from other EU agree that, for youngsters, warnings on cans can sometimes countries shows that increasing the price of alcohol act as an invitation, rather than a deterrent, to use the through the tax system can reduce consumption levels, super-strength cans? The price does not seem to be a especially among younger drinkers, at least in the short deterrent either. We need parents to take greater term. responsibility in knowing what youngsters are doing The Department of Health usually takes the advice and in preventing them from using alcohol, particularly of its own chief medical officer on health issues; the in public. The involvement of parents is crucial and is chief medical officer has recommended a policy involving probably a better way to tackle the problem than taxation a minimum price of 50p a unit, which would push the or restriction. cost of a super-strength can up to £2.25. The homeless charity Thames Reach estimated that even a relatively Martin Linton: I am sure that if the hon. Gentleman modest increase, taking the price of a can of super-strength is a parent like me, he knows that one can never cope up to £1.50 in every shop, would have the beneficial entirely with the perversity of youth. If some people do effect of changing behaviour, persuading many problem the opposite of what one says, one cannot win either drinkers to switch to lower-strength brands. way; if we do not warn them, they do it, but if we do warn them, they still do it. I accept that maximums can I am not advocating a complete ban on super-strength become challenges to young people, but that problem lagers. I recognise that strong lagers, consumed in has to be tackled in the young people themselves. Sooner moderation, have no more effect on health than any or later in life, they are going to have to learn that the other drink. Many people like the taste of strong lagers. advice that others give them is sometimes valuable. If I have a relative who drinks a can of super-strength they do not learn it that way, they will learn it some every day without fail; it can hardly have affected his other way. health, as he is about to celebrate his 99th birthday. 61WH Super-strength Lager1 DECEMBER 2009 Super-strength Lager 62WH

There are many specialist strong lagers, such as Old suffer from the types of life-threatening problems, such Tom, which is 8.5 per cent., but that is sold in third of a as impaired mobility or incontinence, that are more litre bottles. commonly associated with people in their 70s. When its However, it is a fact that the great majority of sales of staff are asked to estimate the age of new arrivals, they super-strength lager and cider are to alcohol-dependent are often 20 years out. They think that the new arrivals people who are often vulnerable and homeless. For are in their 70s but it turns out that they are in their 50s. them, the defining attraction is not the taste, but the Their trouble is that they cannot access the health price per unit of alcohol. Super-strength affects not services available to 70-year-olds. The Minister, who is only health, but behaviour. It causes people to get responsible for care services, will understand that these drunk very quickly and is a major cause of antisocial people are in need of care services although they do not behaviour. Thames Reach often tries to persuade its qualify for them because they are so far under retirement residents to switch back to lower-strength lager—no age. This is a problem that society needs to take more lager at all, if possible, but at least to lower-strength seriously. lager. When they do, their behaviour immediately improves. There is already wide support in the House for a Thames Reach, one of many organisations faced super-strength tax, as witnessed by my early-day motion with this problem, helps about 4,000 people a year. It two years ago, which attracted 50 signatories. Some estimates that 800 of them are drinking super-strength local authorities are beginning to take unilateral action. lager or cider. There were 47 deaths among the people Westminster city council, for instance, has persuaded whom it helped last year. It asked its staff to put the retailers in Victoria, Marylebone and Pimlico to stop types of addiction in order of harm. They put heroin selling super-strength in their shops and that has led to third and crack cocaine in second place. In first place, a marked reduction in antisocial behaviour in those the most dangerous addictive drug, causing the most areas. Pubs, of course, have never sold super-strength damage and the highest number of deaths, was super- lager because they know that if they did it would lead to strength lager. Jeremy Swain, the chief executive of an increase in antisocial behaviour, which their customers Thames Reach, said that every year hundreds of men would not appreciate. Many shops, for their own reasons, and women with serious drink problems—many of do not sell super-strength lager. It is not available in them homeless—are driven to an early grave by these many countries such as Australia and Ireland, not because extraordinarily powerful and destructive drinks. He said of any law but simply because it is not sold in any pubs that we need the Government and producers to accept or shops. that the cost of cheap strong lager that can be purchased I understand the issues concerning civil liberties raised with ease from any corner shop is, in human terms, by the hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink). I simply too high. repeat that I do not seek a complete ban on super-strength Mr. Swain described to me the case histories of some lagers; that would be an infringement. However, we of the people that his organisation has lost. When he must recognise that such drinks have a powerful effect, was banned from pubs, one man took to drinking not only on health but on behaviour. It is well within the super-strength lager in his flat on his own. Despite all its remit of the Government to use the tax system to efforts, Thames Reach could not take him out of the tail influence behaviour and health. We already do that in spin of addiction and he died last year. Another man many ways, and the Department of Health has extended whom Mr. Swain described was addicted to the super- the principle in many areas in recent years. I suggest strength cider White Lightning, though he called it that this is an area where the Department of Health “White Frightening” because of the nightmares and the needs to use incentives and disincentives to try to influence hallucinations he said it induced in him. people. These people are buying super-strength lager Super-strength ciders, often at 7.5 per cent. and sometimes only because of the price per unit and because they live more, are an equally great problem because they too at the extremes of income. They have to save up money have a very low price per unit of alcohol. People choose to afford a can. Clearly, an increase in the price of the these drinks because they are cheap—the cost per unit can would have an immediate effect on their ability to of alcohol is low. Over the years, alcohol has become buy it. cheaper for everyone. Since 1980, alcoholic drinks have become 69 per cent. more affordable. The Minister will Bob Spink: I have been listening carefully to the hon. be familiar with these figures, as I am sure that they Gentleman, and I am being persuaded by his careful come from the Department of Health. The implication and well placed arguments. My concern is about the use is that anybody now in their 40s has seen the price of of taxation, not civil liberties. As in this case, there are alcohol more than halve in real terms since they were times when this place must act to protect people almost old enough to drink. Since they may also have seen their from themselves, as we did with the seat belt law and income double or treble, one can easily see how the other legislation. He is making some extremely strong temptation to drink alcohol and their ability to consume points. I am listening carefully to him and am prepared it has increased many times. It can be no surprise that, to change my mind on this subject. as alcohol has become more affordable, consumption has relentlessly increased—as has the harm from alcohol, Martin Linton: I am grateful for that intervention. In which now costs the Government up to an estimated the circumstances I think I have persuaded 50 per cent. £25 billion a year. of the audience already, and I shall be well pleased if I Super-strength addicts are perhaps the most extreme persuade 100 per cent. This is a modest proposal. I am example of a wider trend, but they are the ones who not putting forward anything that would restrict people’s suffer as no others do. Thames Reach has a phrase for civil liberties. I am making my proposal in a moderate people suffering in that way: it calls them “the young way, in the hope that the Department of Health can olds”. They are the middle-aged men and women who take action. I understand that there are difficulties with 63WH Super-strength Lager1 DECEMBER 2009 Super-strength Lager 64WH

[Martin Linton] increases their risk of death from an alcohol-related cause tenfold. Well over 1 million people are dependent the proposal, which has been widely canvassed and on alcohol. To describe the same figures in a slightly trialled in Scotland, in respect of prices per unit. I find starker way, that group of 10 million people who regularly it quite an attractive proposal, and I do not know what exceed the limits drink three quarters of all alcohol the difficulties are. consumed in this country, and the group of 2.6 million Even if we did not go that far and had a super-strength people who drink more than double the limits consume tax that simply applied to beers and ciders over 6 per a quarter of all alcohol consumed, which is around cent., that would send a strong enough signal to the 3,000 units a year compared to just 200 units for low- minority of the population who drink strong lagers level-risk drinkers. through choice. It would also be a strong disincentive to Since the early ’90s, we have seen a rapid growth in the much greater number of people who drink it as the how much people drink and the annual number of cheapest way of getting drunk. It would have a beneficial deaths caused by alcohol. It is fair to say that the effect on both health and behaviour. I look forward to growth fell slightly in 2007, but it is still far too high. In hearing what my hon. Friend the Minister has to say. 2007, 8,724 deaths were wholly attributable to alcohol, through things such as alcoholic liver disease. That was fewer than in 2006, but still more than twice the number 1.17 pm in 1991. If we include deaths to which alcohol is a The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil contributory factor—some cancers, for example—the Hope): I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for number of deaths rises to 16,000, and rises still further Battersea (Martin Linton) on securing the debate; he if deaths caused by drink driving, accidents and violence has proved himself an effective and persuasive champion are included. of his cause. This is an important matter of concern for The cost to the national heath service of all that is the House and he is right to say that the worst effects of huge—about £2.7 billion every year. In 2007-08, there alcohol misuse are plain to see in towns and cities across were more than 860,000 hospital admissions due to the country. alcohol, which was 6 per cent. of all admissions. That Excessive drinking can turn some places into virtual figure is rising by more than 70,000 every year. Staggeringly, no-go areas on a Saturday night. The costs to the more than a third of all accident and emergency and community, the police and the NHS are astonishing, ambulance costs may be alcohol related. All that adds but, as my hon. Friend pointed out, the problems of up to a major public health problem and a huge source alcohol stretch far beyond weekend binge drinking. of avoidable cost, without even starting to look at the Perhaps the largest long-term problem for the NHS lies personal costs of alcohol abuse to individuals, families with those who do not get arrested, do not get admitted and whole communities. to hospital and do not realise the health risks they are What are we doing about the situation? We are storing up for the future until it is far too late. determined to turn it around. In April 2008, we created My hon. Friend talked about units and I would like the first ever incentive for primary care trusts to bring to explain exactly what we mean by that. Many people alcohol-related hospital admissions into the spotlight, are unclear about what a unit of alcohol, how many through the vital signs indicator. That is one of the units there are in a pint and so on. For the record, one indicators in the NHS national operating framework, unit is 10 ml of pure alcohol. It is the amount that the and it measures how a hospital is managing its admissions. body can, on average, break down in an hour. So, We have launched the alcohol improvement programme, someone who drinks 10 ml of alcohol should not have which gives front-line staff the tools and guidance better any left in their bloodstream 60 minutes later. A standard to understand local needs and better to commission pint of 4 per cent. lager contains two units. A stronger services. There has been a groundswell of support, with 5 per cent. pint of lager will contain three. two thirds of all PCTs now choosing alcohol as a local Some super-strength lagers of the sort my hon. Friend priority and focusing funds and attention on what they described can be as high as 9 per cent. alcohol, with one can do to reduce harm from alcohol. 500 ml can containing four and a half units of alcohol. Alcohol is also one of the top 10 PCT priorities A medium glass of 12.5 per cent. strength wine will within the world-class commissioning programme, and have more than two units, whereas a large glass might GP practices are now encouraged financially to identify contain more than three. That is the important thing to new patients who have unhealthy drinking habits and remember. The Government recommend that women offer them advice on changing their behaviour. The should not regularly drink more than two to three units evidence shows that one in eight people will go on to of alcohol a day. One large glass of white wine is more change their drinking habits. We now see better screening, than three units. Women should not drink more than commissioning and access to treatment. Last year, more two to three units of alcohol a day and men should not than 100,000 people were treated for alcohol dependence. drink more than three or four, which is just over one My hon. Friend raised the specific issue of super-strength pint of strong lager. One can of super-strength lager, lager, from the size of the can to the case for minimum therefore, is more than an entire day’s worth of units for pricing and increasing the tax charged. We recognise the an adult male. We can all see just how easy it is to drink concern he described, which is that the sale of higher- more than the lower-risk amounts. strength lager, beer or cider in conventionally sized cans In preparing for the debate, I discovered other particularly may encourage people to consume large quantities of shocking figures. Some 10 million people regularly exceed alcohol. We take the view that consumers should have a the limits, putting themselves at risk of developing choice of smaller measures in on-trade premises, and long-term health problems, and 2.6 million people regularly we have recently consulted on making it a legal requirement drink more than double the lower-risk amount, which always to offer 125 ml measures of wine. 65WH Super-strength Lager1 DECEMBER 2009 Super-strength Lager 66WH

We will also consider the case for making higher-strength domestic violence. We shall introduce a new hard-hitting drinks available in smaller or re-sealable containers. My campaign for the new year to highlight the health risks hon. Friend has mentioned before, and did so again of alcohol. today, the fact that many homeless people buy super- To go with raising public awareness, we need proper strength lagers. It is true that some homeless people labelling. In 2007, we announced a voluntary agreement suffer from a complex mix of problems, including mental with the industry to show alcohol and health information health issues, for which I have responsibility, and various on most alcohol labels by the end of 2008. We will forms of substance abuse. publish the results of a second monitoring exercise We will shortly launch “New Horizons”, our strategy shortly, together with a consultation on the next steps. for improving mental health services. More important is Unfortunately, despite the good efforts of some companies, the fact that it will promote wider community mental progress on labelling has been disappointing. Giving health and well-being. It will also include specific work people access to the right information when they are with those who have chaotic lifestyles, such as the buying alcohol is essential, and if industry cannot or homeless. will not deliver on its promises, we are prepared to take There is a good deal of public concern about the fact more radical action to ensure real progress. that alcohol is often sold at heavily discounted prices, We also need to tackle cheap alcohol. The Prime and that that can fuel harmful drinking. As well as it Minister has said that being common sense, evidence shows that the cheaper “we will give local authorities the power to ban 24-hour drinking alcohol is, the more people will drink. I listened carefully throughout a community in the interests of local people”. to what my hon. Friend had to say and I share his Industry needs to take some responsibility when it sells concerns, as does the hon. Member for Castle Point discounted, high-strength alcohol. (Bob Spink). I have a great deal of sympathy with my Tax is, of course, a matter for the Chancellor, and I hon. Friend’s point of view. It would be wrong, however, am not yet a Treasury Minister. In 2008-09, my right to think that there is one simple solution to the dilemma. hon. Friend raised duty on alcohol by 6 per cent. in real Altering people’s behaviour is never easy, as has already terms, and he is committed to increasing it by a further been remarked upon, and we must start by empowering 2 per cent. every year until 2012-13. When VAT was cut people to make sensible choices, based on the information by 2.5 per cent. last year, duty on alcohol was raised to that they need to make their own decisions. It is important compensate. I am glad to say that when VAT returns to that those who drink strong lager understand how 17.5 per cent. in the new year, that increase will remain. strong their drink is, how much they are drinking and Through the new mandatory code for alcohol retailing, what health risks are involved. we have shown that if industry continues to act irresponsibly The “Know YourLimits”campaign is catching people’s we will legislate. Cheap, very strong alcohol, combined attention and making them think twice about how with lack of awareness of the damage it may do, is much they drink. Public awareness of the campaign is costing the NHS billions of pounds—and the lives of running at more than 70 per cent., which is high, and thousands of people. Although intervention on pricing the number of people who know their daily alcohol has been ruled out, we need to strike the right balance limits—currently about a third—is growing. between supporting enterprise and respecting the rights Today is the first day of December, and shop windows of responsible customers, making a real difference. We are already heavy with decorations and festive bargains. have said that we will defer work on minimum pricing; I remind the House that later this week the Department we are still thinking about the matter. for Transport will launch the annual drink-driving We are starting to turn the tide in many areas, but we campaign. Those who drink and drive not only put must always try to do more. In that way, we can help to themselves and others in danger, but risk a fine, a improve the health of my hon. Friend’s constituents in 12-month driving ban and a criminal record. I have Battersea and of the constituents of all Members. The hijacked my hon. Friend’s debate to put that clearly on needs of constituents must come first, and tackling the the record, because we want to build on the momentum problem of alcohol misuse is critical to their health and of those and other campaigns, including on rape and to the future of our NHS. 67WH 1 DECEMBER 2009 Offshore Dredging 68WH

Offshore Dredging offshore sand and gravel deposits can disturb the regeneration of beaches during the summer months. It 1.29 pm argues that if beaches become severely eroded due to offshore dredging, coastal defences and particularly Mr. Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con): sand cliffs, sand dunes, salt marshes and shingle beaches It is a great pleasure, Mr. Amess, to speak under your can be progressively damaged, producing coastal erosion. chairmanship on a subject that is of great concern to MARINET also points out—I hope that the Minister many of my constituents and to those of colleagues in will deal with this issue—that Holland and Belgium do coastal constituencies. not allow the dredging of sand and gravel deposits The Minister will know that the East Riding coastal within 25 km of their shoreline or in coastal waters zone, which stretches from Flamborough head to Spurn whose depth is less than 20 metres. A question that my point and much of which is in my constituency, has one constituents have is why, if those rules are suitable in of the fastest eroding coastlines in north-west Europe. those countries, they are not suitable for the United According to Hull university, the area with the fastest Kingdom. I hope that the Minister can explain that. rate of erosion was “At Road Junction South of Cowden”, The British Marine Aggregate Producers Association points to the fact that marine aggregate is playing a role where the rate of erosion was 6.28 metres a year on in replenishing Britain’s beaches in some places. That average between 1954 and 2004. I am sure that the raises another question in my area. If that sand Minister will agree that we must not stop striving to replenishment is suitable along parts of Lincolnshire, improve our understanding of the forces that are changing where I understand that it happens, why is it not appropriate our coast. A crucial point is that each bit of coast and for the east Yorkshire coast? That is another issue for each incidence of dredging is different and needs to be the Minister to deal with. considered on its merits, even though that consideration should be informed by a full understanding of issues and research from around the world. Having a Mr. Anthony Wright (Great Yarmouth) (Lab): I comprehensive understanding of the forces behind coastal congratulate the hon. Gentleman on initiating the debate. erosion would enable us to come up with better measures I had a similar debate some time ago. Presumably he to protect people’s homes and businesses in a sustainable will get exactly the same answers. With regard to beach and affordable way. replenishment, does he not find it perverse that we are paying a company to bring ashore sand that will probably As I said, a significant number of my constituents are go back into the sea to fill up the trench that was concerned that continued offshore dredging is having a scoured out to bring the sand in originally? direct impact on the speed of erosion along the east Yorkshire coast and the Holderness coast in particular. I pay tribute to Gavin Scott of Holmpton, a constituent Mr. Stuart: That is an interesting point and one often of mine, for his indefatigable persistence in raising these made to me by my constituents. I am not entirely sure issues. He was reported in the Yorkshire Post as saying: that it is true. Certainly Holland, which has very much “The Government would have us believe that the vastly increased an evidence-based approach, is relying more and more coastal erosion in our area is due to global warming, climate on replenishment. I understand that it conducts—as we change and a rise in the height of sea levels. But after sifting do—a full analysis of the impact before it dredges. It through all the evidence I personally think dredging in UK waters then examines what happens after the dredging and should now be totally banned…It displays a total disregard for looks at the hole. That is a hotly disputed issue between other people and their livelihoods and seems to me to be tantamount MARINET and the dredging companies, which is why to persecution of coastal dwellers.” I hope that the Minister will be able to help us today. In As you can see, Mr. Amess, feelings run high. Fisherman Holland, they rely on that analysis. If the hole does not Derek Crook, whose home at Tunstall has been lost to fill in and if the aggregate is taken from an area that is coastal erosion, said: not part of the immediate beach replenishment system “It is an absolute national scandal that the Government is or part of that sediment that comes down the coast—in selling sand and gravel to the Continent and it must be a contributing our case, it comes southwards—it is not obvious how factor to beach draw-down.” taking it from elsewhere would have an impact. However, Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The hon. Gentleman that is a hotly disputed issue. has brought an important matter before the House. My A key point that I want to make today is to ask the fishermen and 40,000 of my constituents who live on Government to recognise the strength of feeling, doubt Canvey Island share his concerns. The dredging of and scepticism among our constituents and to ensure 32 million to 34 million cubic metres of spoil to make a that their minds can be put at rest if their fears are deep, quarter-mile-wide trench for shipping for the new unfounded, or further to investigate if those fears have London gateway port at Corringham could have a a better basis. devastating impact on Canvey Island’s sea defences, which run alongside the area where the majority of that The aggregate producers association points out that dredging will take place, but Ministers do not seem able dredging often occurs large distances offshore—8 km to take that on. or more—and that permission would not be given if the experts felt that there was the slightest threat to natural Mr. Stuart: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that processes. I know that that makes many of my constituents intervention. A key issue is to ensure that we have a full guffaw, but there is a system in place. It certainly has not and proper understanding of the processes at work and been obvious to me, from looking at the evidence and that such understanding as we have is shared with our examining it, that dredging relict deposits—deposits constituents. The campaign group MARINET, which is that are not part of a dynamic coastal system, but have part of Friends of the Earth and campaigns against sat dormant for thousands of years off the coast—has marine aggregates dredging, claims that the dredging of had an impact on the coast itself. It certainly does not 69WH Offshore Dredging1 DECEMBER 2009 Offshore Dredging 70WH remove sediment from the coastal system, because that the need for a dispassionate and fully objective look at relict deposit has never played a part in that coastal this topic using evidence from worldwide.” That is a key sediment system. I am yet to be persuaded that there is message for the Minister to look again and ensure that a problem from such dredging, which is the sort of coastal communities feel part of that and have access dredging that happens off my constituency’s coast in to it. East Yorkshire. While the uncertainty attached to currently used However, examples are often cited—including Hallsands, predictive models is not fully recognised, those most at the proposed dredging off the coast of Filey a few years risk will always be tempted to think that the research ago and others—where the analysis showed that dredging does not sufficiently explain the situation in their area. in certain places would have an impact on the sediment To have their home at risk from natural forces is bad that would be available to go on the beaches of the area. enough, but people feel particular injustice if their It is a matter of looking at each issue in turn. homes and communities—their most treasured and valuable The marine dredging operations for sand and gravel assets—are seen to be put at risk by entirely avoidable in the UK are closely controlled and monitored by the commercial activities. What assurance can the Minister Crown Estate, which owns the seabed out to the territorial give that dredging off the east coast of England is not limit, and the Marine and Fisheries Agency, which is a having a detrimental effect? Will he consider further Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs research and what confidence does he have in our agency. Current regulations require all applications for understanding of the physical impacts of aggregate a dredging licence to be accompanied with a full dredging? environmental impact assessment. That should be supported I want to give time to the Minister to reply, but before by a coastal impact study that considers whether the I finish I would like to address the topic of what can be proposed dredging is far enough offshore for there to be done to help people who lose their homes to the sea. I no beach draw-down into the deepened area. They look congratulate Councillors Jane Evison and Jonathan at whether the proposed dredging would interrupt the Owen of East Riding of Yorkshire council for working natural supply of materials to beaches through tides so hard on this subject, and I thank the Minister and his and currents, the likely effects on bars and banks, which predecessors for being so agreeable to meeting provide protection to the coast, and the likely changes representatives from the East Riding to hear the case to the height of waves passing over dredged areas. being put. Those studies, therefore, look at the key issues and We have repeatedly asked for help for people who concerns that my constituents raise with me. invest their last pennies—they often struggle to get a The Marine and Fisheries Agency says that it would mortgage, as one might understand, if they buy a home refuse licenses where there was an unacceptable impact near the sea. They put all they have into a home, but on coastal erosion, flood risk management or the erosion often accelerates beyond the norm. Sometimes environment in general. However, MARINET points there are periods in which erosion is slower than normal, out that little monitoring of the impact of dredging on and then there are periods of greater pace and people fisheries and marine biological communities, or on lose their home. On top of losing everything they have shorelines and coastal defences, takes place during the ever saved and had in the home, they are forced to pay lifetime or after the expiry of the licence. I would be the cost of demolition to boot. I do not believe that a interested to hear from the Minister on that. What perverse incentive would be created if society as a whole happens during the lifetime of the licence and afterwards? covered the cost of demolition for the tiny number of That, MARINET quite rightly says, makes it very difficult people to whom this happens. I hope that the Minister to know whether to suspend a licence mid-term, if it is can share good news with us on that front today. indeed true. We have seen recently the devastation that flooding From the evidence I have reviewed, there is little to can cause to people. In 2007, my constituency was one suggest that marine aggregate dredging is implicated in of the worst affected in the country; every town and coastal erosion on the east coast. The general conclusion almost every village in it was affected by flooding. If the seems to be that material required to support existing Minister provides reassurance that the threat of coastal shorelines is delivered from elsewhere along the coast—not erosion is not being speeded up by avoidable activities, offshore. Therefore, an offshore intervention is unlikely that will be welcome. Also, will he promise the people in to interrupt that supply.I understand from the Environment my constituency and elsewhere who live with the risk of Agency that since 2002 more than £9 million has been coastal erosion that the Government are sympathetic to invested in research associated with marine aggregate their plight? extraction. Of course, not all of that will relate to the I have laid out the case that I wanted to put to the effect on coastal erosion. Minister. I hope he can respond positively on the issues At a public meeting held in March in Holderness in of additional research and communication with coastal my constituency, which I convened, dredging industry dwellers so that they have better understanding and representatives and Professor Mike Elliot of the university confidence that decisions have been taken in their interest, of Hull agreed that more research could only be of not in a commercial or tax-gathering interest. I also assistance. I put that to the Minister. While the evidence hope that people who lose their homes to coastal erosion overall does not suggest that current dredging is having will be supported. an impact on the East Riding coast, we must recognise that each case is different. Professor Elliot contacted me 1.43 pm before this debate and said, “The point being missed at The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the moment is that each case is different. Dredging of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Huw Irranca-Davies): North sea glacial deposits is different from the sand I am grateful to the hon. Member for Beverley and extraction just offshore for beach nourishment. There is Holderness (Mr. Stuart) for raising an important issue 71WH Offshore Dredging1 DECEMBER 2009 Offshore Dredging 72WH

[Huw Irranca-Davies] fund to support community-level adaptation and proposals to enable local authorities to support homeowners who and for securing this debate, which offers me the opportunity lose a property to erosion with demolition and moving to set out the Government’s approach to coastal costs. I will come to the announcements made today by management—specifically, how we manage the licensing my Department, but to clarify things for the hon. of marine dredging to ensure that it does not adversely Gentleman I should say that we will pursue the issue of affect the coastline. demolition costs in parallel with the announcements I commend the hon. Gentleman on his approach to made today, rather than as part of the pathfinder the issue. We recognise the strength of feeling among projects. his constituents and others, and I acknowledge his I am pleased to confirm that today the Secretary of commendably rational approach in wanting to base his State announced the selection of 15 coastal change judgments, and wanting to see the Government base pathfinders. The projects will be driven by local authorities. their judgments, on evidence and rational decision making. When I have gone around the coast, I have tried to put We fully appreciate that coastal erosion is a significant the ask down to the local level and say, “Come forward problem for the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, as it is with your ideas.”That has been the Department’s approach, for other coastal communities who live in vulnerable rather than a man in Whitehall saying, “This is what areas. The Holderness coastline is notoriously susceptible will best suit you.” to erosion. The process of erosion along the Holderness The pathfinders are local authorities from around cliffs is not new; it has been occurring since the end of the coast that have been awarded a total of about the last ice age. Over the past 1,000 years, the Holderness £11 million to road-test new and innovative approaches coast has retreated by about 2 km, causing the loss of to supporting communities in planning for and managing 26 villages listed in the Domesday survey of 1086. adaptation to coastal change. The East Riding of Yorkshire The English coastline has always been subject to council is one of the pathfinders, and will receive more continuous weathering from natural processes. The effects than £1 million to explore and test ideas for adaptation of those processes vary considerably from one part of on the Holderness coast. The specific question that we the coastline to another, depending on the geological face today is whether, in addition to natural processes, nature of the coast, the durability of exposed rocks and the extraction of minerals through marine dredging is materials, and the waves, tides and storm surges to having an effect on coastal erosion. which they are exposed. As we all know, we are increasingly exposed to traumatic events such as storm surges and Mr. Graham Stuart: I am delighted that the East other incidents. The average rate of coastal change Riding has been selected as a pathfinder. I put it to the varies from place to place, from close to 0 metres a year Minister that the places affected include the community in some locations to as much as 1.8 metres in others, of Aldbrough, where the road will be closed shortly, although as the hon. Gentleman said, there are other leaving residents, many of them elderly, trapped in their areas where ingress has been much more significant, homes without proper access and dependent on the including along parts of the Holderness coast. good will of neighbouring landowners to find a solution. The latest science on climate change tells us that the As it will give the local authority greater tools to look risk of coastal erosion and flooding will increase over after people and ensure that they have access, the funding the next 100 years. I do not think that there is any doubt will be welcome. of that in the mainstream of evidence and scientific Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for opinion. That estimate was confirmed by the new climate that intervention. To add a little flesh to the bone, I projections that we launched in June, which show the should say that East Riding district council will receive reality of a changing climate for the UK. We must both just over £1.2 million to provide practical guidance and reduce our emissions and adapt to the inevitable changes support, helping communities through the transition in our climate. I will come to that adaptation in a associated with coastal change, including piloting a moment, because the hon. Gentleman made an important buy-to-let approach to support adaptation in vulnerable point about how we can adapt in coastal areas. It is communities and developing the council’s existing roll-back therefore all the more important to have up-to-date policy. shoreline management plans. That underlines why now, I note in passing that my hon. Friend the Member for more than ever, coastal areas need to be managed in an Great Yarmouth (Mr. Wright), who has a great constituency, integrated and joined-up way. is here today. Great Yarmouth borough council will For the Government’s part, we are committed to also be part of pathfinder projects, receiving close to protecting people and property, both inland and on the £300,000 for a joint project with the community of coast, where it is sustainable to do so. We are investing Scratby; I have visited that important community with record levels of taxpayers’ money and need to ensure my hon. Friend. The purpose is to explore and test that we continue to use it to best effect. For example, we different approaches to adaptation, such as roll-back have more than doubled spending in cash terms on and business-support programmes. Different types of flood and coastal erosion risk management, to £715 million innovation are coming forward from different local in 2009-10. Our investment between 2008 and 2011 will authorities. There is a wide range of measures and hon. total £2.15 billion. Members will be interested because hopefully some of However, there is always an element of frankness to them will provide some of the tools for how we go this discussion: there will be some locations where building forward. new defence structures, or maintaining existing ones, is I turn to the specific question of marine dredging and just not viable. That is why the Government consulted the effect that it may or may not be having on coastal over the summer on how communities can start preparing erosion. I state at the outset that marine minerals are an for and managing coastal change. Plans include a new important source of construction materials, meeting 73WH Offshore Dredging1 DECEMBER 2009 Offshore Dredging 74WH approximately 20 per cent. of the sand and gravel needs We are not aware of any scientific evidence that in England and Wales and amounting to between 17 million marine minerals dredging, as controlled by the Government and 27 million tonnes per annum over the past 25 years. since 1968, has had any effect on the coast or significantly The levels of extraction vary between regions, depending affected the marine environment. Modelling and field on the availability of suitable material and the levels of studies on the impact of individual offshore dredging demand. licences, and their cumulative impacts, have concluded The main extraction sites are located off the east and that UK offshore dredging has not contributed to coastal south coasts of England. The Government’s stated policy erosion. is to see the continued use of marine-dredged sand and gravel to the extent that that remains consistent with the I should be happy to write to the hon. Member for principles of sustainable development. Policy is set out Beverley and Holderness, and other hon. Members who in Government guidance notes, in particular Marine have attended the debate, with further details and references Mineral Guidance 1, which—it is worth pointing out— to the principal points of research, if that is of help. includes a precautionary approach in consideration of I recognise that the issue is complex and that there is applications for marine minerals dredging. still a job to be done to reassure communities with more independent, objective and simple advice, set out in lay I shall now give some detail. New permissions for the persons’ terms. extraction of marine minerals will be granted only where we are satisfied that all environmental issues, including coastal impacts, have been satisfactorily resolved. Mr. Stuart: MARINET, which is part of Friends of Furthermore, it is Government policy that all applications the Earth, an organisation much of whose work I for dredging permissions in previously undredged areas applaud, takes the strong view, which it propagates on require an environmental impact assessment. its website, that dredging has impacts that are not We do not contest the fact that poorly managed properly understood. It cites the Sandpit report and aggregate extraction from the marine environment could others to argue that there is evidence for those effects. cause a range of physical impacts, which may ultimately What can the Minister do to engage with MARINET? contribute to coastal erosion. That is why all marine As long as it says that the Government are wrong and mineral dredging applications are required to assess by are being led more by money than by scientific way of a coastal impact study the physical effects of the considerations, there will be people threatened by coastal proposed operation and its implications for erosion. A erosion who will be afraid that the Government are not permission to dredge will be issued only if the regulator, doing the right thing. the Marine and Fisheries Agency—soon to become the Marine Management Organisation—and its advisors, Huw Irranca-Davies: I thank the hon. Gentleman for consultees and major stakeholders, are content that the that prompt, because I have met MARINET representatives proposed dredging is environmentally acceptable. regularly about a range of issues to do with the marine In all cases, conservative modelling and assessments environment. Its main concerns include the impact on of environmental impacts are undertaken and further the marine environment as well as coastal erosion. supported through routine monitoring. I have copious details, and I will be happy to write to the hon. Member We accept that there will be an impact on fauna from for Beverley and Holderness to explain them and the offshore dredging. However, before dredging permission continual assessment that goes on, such as routine is granted, extensive surveys are carried out and they monitoring of the dredger’s location and the volume of continue for the life of the licence. Surveys are also aggregate extracted, to ensure that any unforeseen impacts carried out in certain areas to determine the impact of can be identified and mitigated. Additional monitoring dredging on shell fisheries, for example. It is worth of the sea bed allows direct assessment of the impact of saying that dredging can be halted, or shifted to another dredge on the sediment transport environment and, dredge zone in the area, should one of the monitoring hence, the impact on the shoreline. If at any time reports demonstrate that the dredging is having an dredging activities are shown potentially to be causing unacceptable impact on the flora and fauna or the coastal erosion, permission will immediately be withdrawn. fishing grounds. There has been a significant amount of research into I know that MARINET and others are often the effects of marine aggregates dredging in general and understandably concerned about recovery. Dredging into the question of coastal impacts in particular. In areas are often split into smaller zones, one or two of answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question, I have no which are dredged at a time, allowing for recovery of doubt that the research will continue. We welcome that. the sea bed. The dredging companies must obtain the approval of the Government before moving to a new Bob Spink: Does the Minister agree that we should active dredging zone. When a new dredging area is take particular care to monitor the impact of dredging licensed, dredging companies will often relinquish an when passing the Montgomery, a munitions ship sunk older dredging area of a similar size. There are ways, in the Thames estuary near to where the dredging will therefore, in which we can alleviate some of the concerns take place? If that ship were to move and spill its of MARINET. munitions, or even explode, it would cause widespread I want briefly to touch on some of the additional devastation. points that were raised. I hope that I made it clear to the Huw Irranca-Davies: That is a useful intervention hon. Member for Castle Point (Bob Spink) that we and we need a proper precautionary approach to all want the appropriate assessments before, during and assessments of the impact of dredging, in all parts of after the process to be carried out properly, so that the UK, including the one to which the hon. Gentleman everywhere where dredging takes place it is properly alludes. determined that it is appropriate to proceed. 75WH Offshore Dredging1 DECEMBER 2009 Offshore Dredging 76WH

[Huw Irranca-Davies] To conclude, I have no doubt that parts of the British coastline are under threat, and that the effects of climate The hon. Member for Beverley and Holderness raised change will only increase those pressures on coastal the contrast with Holland, and the reason for its communities. As I have suggested, the Government will different approach, and it is true that the approach is continue to respond and engage appropriately. We need different there. I am sorry if I am repeating myself, but to ensure that in doing so we target the right measures our approach involves the need to ensure that dredging, and resist the temptation sometimes to use dredging as at whatever depth it happens—we do not arbitrarily set a scapegoat for processes that can be natural. different depth levels—is driven by proper environmental impact assessments and continual monitoring. We do Question put and agreed to. not distinguish between levels; we say that on all levels there should be an assessment of whether it is appropriate to go on. We do not adopt different approaches in 2pm different regions of the UK; what happens is localised to each individual circumstance, within broad parameters. Sitting adjourned. 117WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 118WS

The Task Force has said that to deliver this change, Written Ministerial we need to work with the profession, employers and social work educators through a comprehensive reform Statements programme which will require commitment over a number of years. As Secretaries of State for Children and for Health, we are determined to do that, and will continue Tuesday 1 December 2009 to work together to provide strong leadership and drive. We must ensure that the momentum the Task Force has established is maintained. We are therefore grateful CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES to Moira Gibb, who has ably chaired the Task Force and brought so many different interests to the table, for Social Work Task Force agreeing to establish a new social work reform board, which will oversee the development and implementation The Secretary of State for Children, Schools and of the reform programme. Families (Ed Balls): My right hon. Friend the Secretary The Task Force says that the profession should establish of State for Health and I have today accepted the a college of social work, to develop a more powerful recommendations of the Social Work Task Force. This and equal voice in shaping policy and reform. We have is an important moment for social workers in England. therefore agreed that the Government should work with It will make a big difference for the many children, the profession to help it to establish the college of social young people, families and adults in vulnerable work as soon as possible. Our civil servants have begun circumstances in our society who depend on their support. discussions with key representative organisations—as The Task Force was established to conduct a ‘nuts well as with social workers on the Task Force—about and bolts’ review of social work and to put forward the how best to do this. The college must be led by the reforms needed to secure excellent front line practice. profession and will be an independent institution and Their recommendations, which cover children’s and adult not a Government body. social work, have been considerably influenced by the work of the Children, Schools and Families Select We want to see the college acquire Royal status to Committee in their report on the training of children give the profession the standing it deserves and the and families social workers. We are very grateful to status it needs to influence national policy making and them for their important contribution. public debate. The college will have to establish itself as The Task Force’s recommendations, all of which we a credible, independent voice for social work and for the are accepting, will make a real difference to the support profession, and while Government will provide it with that social workers receive, the training and education start-up support the College will need to work with they can access and to the status and public understanding social workers to determine its independent funding of their work—they will also make a difference that and governance arrangements. It may also wish to must be sustained for future generations of social workers explore the potential to expand its coverage to other and those thinking about entering the profession now. parts of the UK. These recommendations include: Early in 2010, the Government—with the support A career structure for social workers so that experienced of the social work reform board—will publish an practitioners can progress in front line roles as well as in management. implementation plan for reform of adult and children’s This must ensure that social workers are appropriately rewarded social work. This will set out how we will put in place for their work. the key elements of the reform programme, making a A new and independent college for social work, led and owned by the profession, which must establish a stronger voice for social sustained commitment to improvement for the future. work and exercise appropriate influence over national policy Social workers, and those who educate and employ making and public debate; and a programme of work to improve them, have been important members of the Social Work public understanding of social work and of the essential contribution social workers make. Task Force. Many more have contributed to the A new standard for employers to ensure that all employers put development of their recommendations through the in place the conditions that social workers need to practice impressive programme of regional events, visits to local effectively, including high quality supervision, time for continuing areas and consultation processes and through their professional development and manageable work loads. extensive survey of social worker workloads. Service Reforms to initial social work training, so that people of high users have also played a vocal and critical role on the calibre enter social work and all students receive good quality Task Force and by contributing their perspective of the education and practice learning placements, equipping them for difference that social work—and really good social the challenges they will face when they begin to practice. workers—can make for them. A new ‘licensing’ system, which will introduce an assessed probationary year in employment for new social work graduates. We must act quickly, ensuring that our actions have This must ensure that they are both properly supported in their lasting impact—making a difference not just for the first year in practice and are properly assessed before they are current generation of social workers, but for those who fully licensed. will follow them over the next decade and beyond. This A revamped framework for continuing professional development, is of potential benefit to all of us in society who underpinned by a practice-based masters qualification, so that all may need social work services at any time in our lives. social workers can keep their skills up to date and develop specialist knowledge as they progress in their careers. And we must act together. As Secretaries of State for All this in addition to the reforms to the integrated children’s Children and for Health, that is what we intend to do. system the Task Force has already proposed and the Government To succeed, we will need employers, educators and the have accepted. Over the next few months these should significantly profession to rise to the Task Force’s challenge and seize reduce bureaucracy on the front line. this opportunity. 119WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 120WS

We have written today to all social workers in England alternative options for development and then use the to thank them for their work and to explain how we are eco-town concept and standards to see if this can be responding to the Task Force’s report, to local authority successfully applied to their area. employers and to higher education institutions to explain The locations and places I am announcing today what this means for them, and to hon. Members of this show how local authorities want to use the eco-town House, to ask for their help in celebrating the work of concept and standards in a variety of ways. Developing social workers and those who employ and educate these projects will be a demanding process requiring them, encouraging them to seize this important opportunity. good co-operation between central and local partners I am placing copies of the report and our response in and the private sector. We will now be taking these the Libraries of both Houses. proposals forward in more detailed discussion with each authority with a view to providing funding support for more detailed design and to test feasibility, drawing COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT on the £5 million fund for studies which I announced in July. We will be working with partners across Government Eco-towns Planning Policy Statement and the agencies to ensure that infrastructure, environment and sustainability issues are suitable addressed. In all cases these proposals are or are intended to become The Minister for Housing (John Healey): One of the part of the local plan work being led by the authority key roles of local authorities in responding to climate and will be subject to the full local planning process. change is to be innovative in how new development is I am also keen that this is not just planning work but planned. Today, I am announcing that we have had a that we can help communities see some of the potential very encouraging number of responses from local by funding demonstrator low and zero-carbon exemplar authorities who want to take forward major new schemes as we currently envisage in the first four eco-towns. development to the exemplar green standards which we To this end I am making available £5 million capital set out in the Eco-towns PPS published in July of this funding to enable authorities to show the type of year. This shows how the standards we set are influencing development that will be possible and my Department the thinking of local authorities across the country as will be issuing further advice on this in conjunction with they consider how to do new development. Possible the Homes and Communities Agency. second wave bids are still at an early stage and will be subject to further, widespread consultation on proposals, before public consultation and local planning approval. The Eco-towns PPS sets the highest sustainability Housing and Planning Delivery Grant standards ever required for new development. One of the key components of the eco-towns concept is to exploit low carbon innovation at community scale with a minimum development over time of around 5,000 homes. The Minister for Housing (John Healey): I am today It is the scope for a new community or communities to announcing the provisional allocations totalling £135 million create the opportunity of large scale innovation in how for the second year of Housing Planning Delivery Grant jobs, schools and services are delivered in low carbon (HPDG) (2009-10). HPDG was established in 2007 to ways that will help us pilot new approaches in responding reward local authorities for improved delivery of housing to climate change. and other planning services as part of their strategic, I am today announcing that we are taking forward place shaping role and to provide more support to nine expressions of interest from local authorities and communities and local councils who are actively seeking city regions, covering 14 locations, for support for the to deliver new homes. We consulted on changes to the further planning and feasibility work which will test consultation to the distribution mechanism earlier in whether potential development in these areas could the year. The decision to review the grant scheme follows meet the concepts and standards set out in the Eco-towns our public commitment to monitor the grant in light of PPS. They comprise: changes in economic circumstances. (i) Existing schemes at Shoreham Harbour and The changes to the allocation formula for 2009-10 Northstowe, where there is now an opportunity and are: desire to redesign elements of the project to see if it can An additional reward for those who could demonstrate meet even higher sustainability standards. housebuilder involvement in developing strategic housing land (ii) A total of five authorities and partnerships, covering availability assessments (SHLAA); and 10 locations in Taunton (Monkton Heathfield and to increase the reward for demonstrating land for having a five Corneytrowe), Yeovil, Leeds City Region (Aire Valley, year land supply at the expense of having development plan York North West, North Kirklees and Bradford-Shipley documents in place. Canal Corridor), Coventry and Lincoln (Lincoln area A copy of the provisional allocations have been placed and Gainsborough). In these locations the concepts are in the Libraries of both Houses and are available on the still at an early stage but development work under the Communities and Local Government website at: Eco-towns PPS offers the possibility of creating an outstanding new community providing it is feasible and http://www.communities.gov.uk/planningandbuilding/ deliverable. planning/planningpolicyimplementation/ (iii) Cornwall, which is already taking forward one of planningdeliverygrant. the first eco-towns, and Sheffield city region (Dearne A summary of responses and formal government Valley, South Yorkshire) wish to use the eco-towns response to the consultation paper will be published concept to carry out a broader survey of potential, test with the final allocations in the new year. 121WS Written Ministerial Statements1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 122WS

DEFENCE Between now and spring 2011, these 15 pathfinders will explore a range of approaches to both building UK-Iraq Agreement (Training and Maritime Support) capacity and finding practical solutions. These approaches include new ways to engage local communities, helping The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Bill Rammell): them to plan for how the coast could change; ways of The House will be aware from my previous statement retaining community vitality by planning for and managing on 22 October that the UK-Iraq Agreement was approved change, for instance through roll-back and buy to let by the Iraqi Council of Representatives last month. The schemes; and capital projects that enable continued Iraqi Presidency Council has now also ratified the enjoyment of changing coastal environments, for example agreement, and on 22 November our Embassy in Baghdad building and maintaining boardwalks and beach received a diplomatic note from the Government of infrastructure. Iraq confirming that their constitutional procedures are Further information on how pathfinder bids were now complete. assessed together with details of funding allocations My right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary wrote to and the pathfinder projects is available on the DEFRA Opposition spokesmen and the Chairman of the House website at: http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/flooding/ of Commons Defence Committee in September to explain manage/pathfinder/index.htm. our intention to bring the agreement into force as soon The pathfinder programme is all about learning and, as the Iraqi Government were ready. Our agreement throughout it, lessons learned will be shared so that with Iraq on training and maritime support has now other coastal authorities and organisations can benefit. entered into force. Training of the Iraqi navy has been paused since June, and it is right that we resume this activity as soon TRANSPORT as possible. It is vital that the Iraqi navy quickly develop the capacity to protect their territorial waters and the offshore oil platforms on which their economy is so Correction to Written Answers dependent. Our Royal Navy trainers have therefore returned to Iraq, and our ships have re-entered Iraqi territorial waters. Both tasks are being undertaken alongside The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport our US colleagues. (Chris Mole): I regret to inform the House that some of the figures in the answer I gave to parliamentary Official Report ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS questions 298819-298839 on 11 November, , columns 368W, 369W and 370W, about the spend to Coastal Change Pathfinders date, forecast future spend and total projected costs of Highways Agency road schemes contained inaccuracies. Subsequently errors were found in some non-major The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and project schemes arising from arithmetical error; reporting Rural Affairs (Hilary Benn): I am announcing today the of 2009-10 costs only; and error in data entry in the outcome of the coastal change pathfinder competition table containing the 116 Highways Agency road schemes. that I launched in June. The following 15 local authorities have been selected as pathfinders to explore new approaches The Highways Agency has prepared a revised table. to planning for, and managing, adaptation to coastal The table has been placed in the Libraries of both change together with their communities, using the Houses. £11 million coastal change fund that I announced in June: Railways: Greater Anglia Franchise Chichester District Council Dorset County Council East Riding of Yorkshire Council The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport East Sussex County Council (Chris Mole): My right hon. and noble Friend the Great Yarmouth Borough Council Secretary of State for the Department for Transport has Hampshire County Council made the following ministerial statement: Hastings Borough Council The Greater Anglia franchise, currently operating as National Lincolnshire County Council Express East Anglia, consists of services from London Liverpool North Norfolk District Council Street to north and east Greater London, Essex, Hertfordshire, Scarborough Borough Council Cambridgeshire, Suffolk and Norfolk. As I announced to the Sefton Metropolitan Borough Council House on 26 November, the current franchise will terminate on 31 March 2011. The Department will be consulting on the new Somerset County Council franchise specification over the spring of 2010, with a view to South Hams District Council issuing an invitation to tender in the summer of 2010 and an Tendring District Council announcement of the successful bidder in late 2010 to start the Waveney District Council new franchise on 1 April 2011.

9P Petitions1 DECEMBER 2009 Petitions 10P

recommendations are based on a review that was extremely Petitions rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently Tuesday 1 December 2009 robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing legislative framework. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of PRESENTED PETITIONS Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, Petitions presented to the House but not read on the Floor Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to Badman Report (Burton) withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of children educated The Petitions of persons resident in the Burton at home in the absence of a thorough independent parliamentary constituency, inquiry into the condition and future of elective home Declares that they are concerned about the education in England; but instead to take the steps recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home closer monitoring of home educators, including a Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly compulsory annual registration scheme and right of implemented, learning from current best practice, in all access to people’s homes for local authority officials; local authorities in England. further declares that the Petitioners believe the And the Petitioners remain, etc. recommendations are based on a review that was extremely [P000447] rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently Badman Report (Hampstead and Highgate) robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing The Petition of persons resident in the Hampstead and legislative framework. Highgate parliamentary constituency, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Declares that they are concerned about the Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to closer monitoring of home educators, including a withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for compulsory annual registration scheme and right of tighter registration and monitoring of children educated access to people’s homes for local authority officials; at home in the absence of a thorough independent further declares that the Petitioners believe the inquiry into the condition and future of elective home recommendations are based on a review that was extremely education in England; but instead to take the steps rushed, failed to give due consideration to the evidence, necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home failed to ensure that the data it collected were sufficiently Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly robust, and failed to take proper account of the existing implemented, learning from current best practice, in all legislative framework. local authorities in England. The Petitioners therefore request that the House of And the Petitioners remain, etc. Commons urges the Secretary of State for Children, [P000448] Schools and Families either not to bring forward, or to withdraw, proposed legislative measures providing for tighter registration and monitoring of children educated Badman Report (West Worcestershire) at home in the absence of a thorough independent The Petition of persons resident in the West Worcestershire inquiry into the condition and future of elective home parliamentary constituency, education in England; but instead to take the steps Declares that they are concerned about the necessary to ensure that the existing Elective Home recommendations of the Badman Report, which suggests Education Guidelines for Local Authorities are properly closer monitoring of home educators, including a implemented, learning from current best practice, in all compulsory annual registration scheme and right of local authorities in England. access to people’s homes for local authority officials; And the Petitioners remain, etc. further declares that the Petitioners believe the [P000449]

567W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 568W Written Answers to Bus Services: Fares Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department Questions for Transport what the percentage change in bus fares was in (a) London and (b) England in (i) 2007-08 and (ii) 2008-09. [302039] Tuesday 1 December 2009 Mr. Khan: The annual percentage change in local bus fares in London was 5 per cent. in 2007-08 and 0 per HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION cent. in 2008-09, at current prices. The equivalent figures for England were 6 per cent. in 2007-08 and 5 per cent. House of Commons Annunciator System: in 2008-09. These statistics are derived from the bus fares index Mrs. Gillan: To ask the hon. Member for North maintained by the Department for Transport and are Devon, representing the House of Commons Commission calculated as the annual percentage increase in the whether the House of Commons Commission plans to average value of the relevant index across the whole carry on the annunciator system a feed of proceedings financial year. from the chambers of the devolved assemblies. [302124]

Nick Harvey: It is not possible for Members to view East Coast Main Line proceedings of the devolved assemblies on the Parliamentary annunciator system as there are no broadcast Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, links available. The proceedings can however be viewed Department for Transport what steps his Department via the internet using the following sites: is taking to increase internet access speeds on For the Scottish Parliament: passenger rail services operating on the East Coast www.scottish.parliament.uk Main Line. [302655] For the Welsh Assembly: Chris Mole: The franchise requirements with respect www.senedd.tv to wi-fi internet access on the East Coast route have For the Northern Ireland Assembly: transferred from National Express East Coast to the www.niassembly.gov.uk/stream.htm East Coast Main Line Company trading as East Coast. I understand that East Coast is reviewing the service that is provided. TRANSPORT Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties and Insurance Arriva Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Minister of State, Mr. Keetch: To ask the Minister of State, Department Department for Transport what requirements his for Transport what discussions his Department had Department makes of cars registered abroad to have with the Welsh Assembly Government on the (a) new (a) road tax and (b) insurance when being driven on Arriva Trains Wales North to South Wales Express UK roads; and if he will make a statement. [303554] service and (b) merits of that service including a stop in Hereford. [303051] Paul Clark: A vehicle which is properly registered and taxed in its home country may be used by a visitor Chris Mole: This is a devolved matter for the Welsh for up to six months in any 12 without being subject to Assembly Government. The Department for Transport domestic registration and licensing. has not had any detailed discussion about this service with the Welsh Assembly Government, apart from All vehicles in use on UK roads, whether or not clarification of the contractual status of this service. registered in the UK, are required to be insured against third party risk under Section 143 of the Road Traffic Aviation: Waltham Forest Act 1988.

Mr. Gerrard: To ask the Minister of State, Department National Express East Coast for Transport what assessment he has made of the effects of the revised London City Airport standard instrument departure procedures on the number of Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department aircraft flying over areas of Waltham Forest; and which for Transport what plans he has for future operational areas of Waltham Forest have been affected by such arrangements for the two rail franchises currently held changes. [302042] by National Express; and if he will make a statement. [302636] Paul Clark: London City Airport’s standard instrument departure (SID) routes passed over parts of Waltham Chris Mole [holding answer 30 November 2009]: I Forest before the recent changes and under the revised refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement SIDs, still do. The Civil Aviation Authority, as the by my right hon. Friend the Minister of State for independent regulator of airspace, will assess the full Transport (Mr. Khan) on 26 November 2009, Official impact of the changes 12 months after their introduction. Report, column 100WS. 569W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 570W

North Cotswold Line Mr. Khan: It is for Tyne and Wear authorities to decide whether to bid for funding for schemes from the Mr. Keetch: To ask the Minister of State, Department Transport Innovation Fund. The Department for Transport for Transport whether he plans to create a dual track has not received any such bids to date. railway line on the North Cotswold Line between Ledbury and Hereford; and if he will make a statement. [303125] Railways: Penalty Fares

Chris Mole: There are no Government plans at present for re-doubling the North Cotswolds Line between Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department (a) (b) Ledbury and Hereford, although Network Rail is currently for Transport under what statutory or other reviewing the requirements of the line as part of its authority train operating companies may apply penalty West Midlands Route Utilisation Strategy. The outcome fares. [302633] from this and other route utilisation strategies will guide rail investment from 2014. Chris Mole [holding answer 30 November 2009]: The legal basis for charging penalty fares is section 130 of Norwich-London Railway Line the Railways Act 1993. There are also two statutory instruments relating to Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Minister of State, Department regulations for penalty fares: the Railways (Penalty for Transport (1) on how many occasions trains or Fares) Regulations 1994 (Statutory Instrument 1994 rolling stock used on the Norwich to London railway No. 576) and the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) line failed routine safety inspections in (a) 2007, (b) Regulations 2005 (Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 1095). 2008 and (c) 2009 to date; [302200] (2) how many instances have been identified of employees Railways: Repairs and Maintenance (a) operating vehicles and (b) managing infrastructure on the Norwich to London railway line without the appropriate safety certificate or authorisation during Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent representations (i) 2007, (ii) 2008 and (iii) 2009 to date; [302201] he has received on the replacement of railway sleepers. (3) how many breaches of health and safety regulations [302691] have been reported on the Norwich to London railway line in each of the last 10 years. [302434] Chris Mole: The Department for Transport has had Chris Mole: The Department for Transport does not representation from two companies regarding the use of hold the information requested. The Office of Rail railway sleepers made from recycled material. Regulation is responsible for safety regulation. The hon. Member may wish to contact the Office of Rail Roads: Accidents Regulation at the following address for such information: Office of Rail Regulation Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Minister of State, 1 Kemble Street Department for Transport how many people have been London (a) killed and (b) injured while driving on roads in WC2B 4AN each year since 1997. [302858]

Penzance-Plymouth Railway Line Paul Clark: The following table shows the number of motor vehicle drivers and riders (a) killed and (b) Dan Rogerson: To ask the Minister of State, Department injured in reported road accidents in each year since for Transport if he will bring forward measures to 1997: amend the terms of the CrossCountry franchise agreement Reported motor vehicle driver and rider casualties: GB 1997-2008 to include a requirement for the train operating company Killed Injured to provide catering facilities between Penzance and Plymouth. [303371] 1997 1,741 164,920 1998 1,704 166,270 Chris Mole: The obligations upon CrossCountry to 1999 1,706 164,902 provide catering between defined points on its network 2000 1,768 169,043 were based upon market research conducted by the 2001 1,824 167,513 successful bidder (Arriva). The Department for Transport 2002 1,844 163,497 has no plans to amend the terms of the Franchise 2003 1,943 157,871 Agreement to include a requirement to provide catering 2004 1,771 153,535 facilities between Penzance and Plymouth. 2005 1,764 149,780 2006 1,735 143,481 Public Transport: Tyne and Wear 2007 1,610 137,529 2008 1,415 127,133 Jim Cousins: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what projects his Department plans to A breakdown of these statistics can be found in the fund from the Transport Innovation Fund in Tyne and Reported Road Casualties Great Britain: 2008 Annual Wear as a result of the work of the Tyne and Wear Report. Copies of the report have been deposited in the People in Motion Partnership. [302539] Libraries of the House. 571W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 572W

Rolling Stock Mr. Hain: It is not possible to provide the information in the manner requested as we do not hold a breakdown Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department on the cost of office facilities for individual units within for Transport what estimate he has made of the fuel the Wales Office. consumption of the proposed bi-mode Intercity Express train per mile when running (a) under the wires and Departmental Travel (b) on diesel; and what percentage of fuel consumed when running under the wires will be attributable to the Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for transportation of the vehicle itself. [301212] Wales on what date he last travelled by (a) bus and (b) taxi in the course of his official duties. [302733] Chris Mole: Based on “flat out”1 running, the fuel consumption of a 10-car bi-mode Super Express train is Mr. Hain: The information requested is as follows: approximately (a) 30 kWh per mile when on an electric- (a) 13 November 2009 powered journey from London to Edinburgh (same as for the bi-mode train running on electric) and (b) (b) 26 November 2009 7.3 litres per mile when on a diesel-powered journey from Edinburgh to Aberdeen. Immobilisation of Vehicles When either a bi-mode train or an electric train is running London to Edinburgh, the percentage of power Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for attributable to transportation of the train is estimated Wales how much his Department has paid in vehicle to be approximately 80-90 per cent., with the remainder clamping charges incurred on (a) privately-owned and providing power to air conditioning, lighting and other (b) publicly-owned land in each of the last 10 years; onboard ‘hotel’ services. This proportion will vary and if he will make a statement. [302752] depending on the route being operated, dwell times, turn around times, etc. Mr. Hain: None. 1 Reflecting maximum acceleration and braking, and station stops (zero dwell times).

Transport: Weston-super-Mare ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS

John Penrose: To ask the Minister of State, Department Departmental Recycling for Transport what recent assessment he has made of progress on the West of England Partnership’s Weston Package bid; and when he expects it to be granted Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what weight of programme entry. [301778] paper his Department recycled in each of the last five years. [300779] Mr. Khan: Assessment for Programme Entry of the Weston Package scheme has now been completed and Dan Norris: The Secretary of State for Environment, I expect to make a decision shortly. Food and Rural Affairs can confirm that DEFRA recycled the following amount of paper in each of the last five years. WALES Paper Total Percentage Percentage recycled waste of waste of waste Departmental Consultants (Tonnes) (Tonnes) recycled1 recovered2

3 3 3 Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 2008-09 781 — — — how many external consultants work for his Department. 2007-08 881 4,816 29 60 [303227] 2006-07 860 5,252 27 55 2005-06 970 5,716 29 47 Mr. Hain: None. 2004-05 669 4,283 22 52 1 Waste recycled is any waste that is recycled, composted or reused Departmental Information Officers externally. 2 Waste recovered is any waste that is recycled, composted, reused externally or incinerated with energy recovery (energy from waste). Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 3 Data embargoed by OGC until 18 December 2009. how many full-time equivalent press officers (a) are The table above demonstrates that DEFRA is continuing employed by and (b) work for his Department. [303608] to both reduce its waste arisings and increase the amount of waste it recycles/recovers. Mr. Hain: Three. It should be noted that DEFRA rebaselined its waste arisings for Sustainable Operations on the Government Departmental Public Expenditure Estate (SOGE) reporting purposes to 2006-07 following a change in the reporting parameters; in 2004-05 and Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales 2005-06 data was gathered from sites with 50 or more what the cost to his Department was of the provision staff, this changed in 2006-07 and subsequent years to of office facilities to (a) special advisers and (b) press reporting sites with 25 or more staff. The number of officers in the 2008-09 financial year. [302963] sites has increased from 38 to over 50. 573W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 574W

It should be noted that DEFRA incinerates Dan Norris: In line with European Union legislation, approximately 30 per cent. of its waste, from which the proposed release of genetically modified crops is significant quantity of heat and energy is recovered. subject to a robust case-by-case assessment of the potential The majority of the incinerated waste is generated in impact on human health and the environment. DEFRA the laboratories and cannot be recycled, therefore Ministers receive expert scientific advice on this from incinerating with energy recovery higher on the waste the independent Advisory Committee on Releases to hierarchy than sending to landfill. Current Sustainable the Environment. Development Commission reporting does not acknowledge DEFRA has commissioned two projects since the energy recovery from waste incineration as recycling or conclusion of the Farm Scale Evaluation trials which waste recovery under current Sustainable Operations follow up or build on that research, as follows: on the Government Estate (SOGE) guidelines. The full 2008-09 Sustainable Development in Project Government (SDiG) reporting data will be published Research project title code by OGC on 18 December 2009. Assessing the environmental impact of crop AR0317 production practice—beyond the GM crop Farm Drinking Water: Pollution Control Scale Evaluations Farm Scale Evaluations—further sampling of soil CB 02034 seed bank and seedling emergence and 02037 Tim Farron: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Full details of these projects, including the final has made of the amount spent from the public purse on reports, are available on the DEFRA website. removing (a) pesticides and (b) nitrates from drinking Mr. Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for water supplies in each of the last five years. [303298] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will assess the implications for his Department’s policies on genetically Huw Irranca-Davies: The cost of providing public modified foods of the editorial in the Scientific American drinking water supplies is not covered by the public in July 2009 which asserts that it is impossible to verify purse. Costs are incurred by water companies which that genetically modified crops perform as advertised recover them from customers through water bills. because agritech companies have given themselves veto power over the work of independent researchers. Food Supply [303373] Dan Norris: We support open scientific inquiry in this Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for area, and anticipate that companies would make their Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent research genetically modified seeds available for legitimate research, his Department has (a) commissioned and (b) conducted as they did in the UK for the major Farm Scale Evaluations on the introduction of new crops and agronomic techniques project. intended to ensure the security of food supply. [302482] Land Drainage: Urban Areas Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has invested in research on the development of improved pest and disease resistance, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for reduced input requirements, resilience to climate change Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his and lower pollution outputs. The DEFRA Crop Genetic Department’s definition is of a sustainable urban drainage Improvement Networks (cereals, oilseed rape, pulses, system; if he will adopt the definition used in Scottish vegetables, grasses, biomass crops) deliver research that law; how many such systems there are in England and allows selection of genetic resources for desired Wales; who is responsible for (a) creating and (b) characteristics. DEFRA co-funds further research in maintaining them; how they physically connect with partnership with industry (e.g. LINK) to transfer these surface water systems; and if he will make a statement. characteristics into commercially viable crops. [302316] DEFRA has also funded research generally in Huw Irranca-Davies: As a general rule, the phrase partnership with industry into improved agronomic ‘Sustainable Urban Drainage System’ is used in Scotland, techniques to develop whole-farm approaches that optimise whereas ‘Sustainable Drainage Systems’ tends to apply production in terms of soil and nutrient management, in England and Wales because its use is not limited to precision agriculture, integrated management of crop urban areas. diseases, pests and weeds, and improved water use efficiency. The Flood and Water Management Bill, which had its first reading in the House of Commons on 19 November, Genetically Modified Organisms: Research will introduce measures to increase the uptake of sustainable drainage systems (SUDS) in England and Wales. The Mr. Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill sets out that ‘sustainable drainage’ means managing Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his rainwater with the aim of: Department is taking to assess the environmental Reducing damage from flooding; impact of genetically modified crops in England; if he Improving water quality; will list the research projects commissioned or completed Protecting and improving the environment; since the conclusion of the Government-funded farm Protecting health and safety; and scale evaluations, that are designed to repeat or built on Ensuring the stability and durability of drainage systems. the research on the environmental impacts of those The Bill also gives powers to the Secretary of State trials; and what scientific conclusions were reached. and Welsh Ministers to define by regulations the term [303372] ‘sustainable drainage system’. 575W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 576W

There is currently no register of SUDS, although the The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office (SFO) proposals set out in the Flood and Water Management has previously announced that it is preparing papers to Bill for the approval and adoption of sustainable drainage be submitted to the Attorney-General when the SFO systems will address this. considers it is ready to proceed. That remains the current The Government currently encourage the uptake of position. SUDS through planning policy statement 25 on development and flood risk, and part H of the building Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor-General regulations 2002. whether the Serious Fraud Office has closed its investigations Sir Michael Pitt’s review of the 2007 floods identified into allegations of bribery and corruption involving that the lack of formal SUDS adoption and maintenance BAE Systems in (a) Romania and (b) South Africa. arrangements and an automatic right to connect surface [301914] water to the public sewer system, were barriers to a more widespread uptake of SUDS. The Solicitor-General: The Serious Fraud Office is conducting a number of live criminal investigations The Flood and Water Management Bill seeks to into BAE Systems and it is not appropriate to comment resolve these issues by requiring developers to seek on the details at this stage. approval for drainage plans for new developments and redevelopments from a new SUDS Approving Body Business: Corruption (SAB) in unitary and county councils. It also provides for the Government to publish a set of National Standards for SUDS, after consultation. Permission to connect Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor-General surface water drains to the public sewer (if needed) whether the Attorney-General is required to conduct would only be given once the drainage systems have a Shawcross exercise when considering whether to been approved by the local authority as meeting National consent to prosecute British companies and individuals Standards for SUDS. The Bill also states that sustainable in relation to allegations of overseas corruption; and if drainage systems serving more than one property would she will make a statement. [301915] be adopted and maintained by the local authority SUDS Approving Body. These proposals should ensure that The Solicitor-General: The Attorney-General is under SUDS are routinely used in developments in the future. no such obligation. Pets: Animal Welfare Departmental Air Travel

Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Simon Hughes: To ask the Solicitor-General how Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his many domestic flights within Great Britain officials Department is taking to reduce the number of abandoned from the Law Officers’ Departments took in an official animals. [301648] capacity in 2008-09; and at what cost to the public purse such flights were taken. [300396] Jim Fitzpatrick: Under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 owners and keepers of animals are required to keep The Solicitor-General: The information requested is their animals in a suitable environment. The law on contained in the following table. abandonment is therefore robust and those who do not comply can be sent to prison for up to six months, fined Number of flight and/or disqualified from keeping animals. Department on official business Cost (£)

We have been working closely with animal welfare Attorney General’s 73 16,932 stakeholders to produce new Codes of Practice on the Office welfare of cats, dogs, and horses. These new Codes are Serious Fraud Office 77 14,812 designed to help people comply with the requirements National Fraud 2 749.20 of the Act. We believe they will help to prevent animals Authority from being abandoned and will be launched shortly. Treasury Solicitors 0 0 Her Majesty’s Chief 00 Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Crown Prosecutions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he inspectorate has made of the number of animals acquired as domestic Revenue and Customs 19 3,052.37 pets and abandoned after the Christmas period in Prosecutions Office (a) 2007 and (b) 2008. [301649] Information in respect of the Crown Prosecution Jim Fitzpatrick: The Department has made no estimate. Service could be obtained only at disproportionate cost. All travel by Civil Servants is undertaken in accordance with the guidelines set out in the Civil Service Management SOLICITOR-GENERAL Code and Departmental staff handbooks. BAE Systems Departmental Cost-effectiveness

Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Solicitor-General Dr. Cable: To ask the Solicitor-General what efficiency whether the Attorney-General has received a report savings projects the Law Officers’ Departments put in from the Serious Fraud Office for consent for prosecution place under the Operational Efficiency Programme; on in relation to charges against BAE Systems; and if she what date each such project was initiated; how much will make a statement. [301913] each such project was expected to contribute to 577W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 578W

Departmental savings; how much had been saved through The Solicitor-General: There are no scientific advisers each such project on the latest date for which figures are or civil servants in scientific posts in the Law Officers’ available; and if she will make a statement. [300939] Departments.

The Solicitor-General: The Law Officers Departments Serious Fraud Office account for one of the smallest budgets in Whitehall. In line with the Government’s OEP implementation plan, Chris Huhne: To ask the Solicitor-General whether they have provided benchmarking data to HM Treasury she has considered the merits of the Serious Fraud across the range of OEP indicators. Office operating a leniency programme similar to that The Law Officers Departments’ contribution to the operated by the Office of Fair Trading. [301931] Operational Efficiency Programme (OEP) is being delivered as part of their wider effort to deliver value for money, The Solicitor-General: The SFO has recently published including their contribution to the Government’s target a guide to dealing with overseas corruption, including a to deliver £35 billion in savings during the current self-reporting element that has some similarities with comprehensive spending review period. the Office of Fair Trading’s Leniency Programme. Under these arrangements a number of projects are The SFO’s guide to dealing with overseas corruption planned or are already under way. In April it was can be found on the SFO website at: announced that we would merge the Crown Prosecution http://www.sfo.gov.uk/media/13390/approach%20of%20the% Service (CPS) and the Revenue and Customs Prosecutions 20sfo%20to%dealing%20with%20overseas%20corruption.pdf Office (RCPO) to drive out economies of scale, minimise duplication and create a more flexible and resilient Vodafone Group: Ghana Telecom organisation which was better able to handle specialist and complex cases. RCPO and CPS will by July 2010 Mr. Watson: To ask the Solicitor-General (1) what have merged into one prosecuting body delivering significant representations the Serious Fraud Office has received savings. in respect of Vodafone’s merger with Ghana Telecom; The Law Officers Departments are also reviewing and if she will make a statement; [301946] their estates as part of the overall efficiency effort, with (2) what discussions the Serious Fraud Office has a view to rationalising accommodation as leases expire. had with representatives of Vodafone on its merger The first major phase of the rationalisation will be to with Ghana Telecom in the last 12 months. [301948] give up RCPO’s existing accommodation in New Kings Beam House when the lease on that property expires in The Solicitor-General: I have not received representations December 2011. Work thereafter will enable the whole on this issue, nor have I had any such discussions. Law Officers Departments estate to be used more flexibly and cost-effectively in the future. Mr. Watson: To ask the Solicitor-General whether Additionally, the Treasury Solicitor’s Department (TSol) the Serious Fraud Office plans to investigate Vodafone’s has upgraded its financial system and reviewed its financial merger with Ghana Telecom; and if she will make a processes so that the opportunities for efficiency provided statement. [301947] by the new system can be fully exploited and these include outsourced invoice scanning with electronic The Solicitor-General: For operational reasons it would authorisation. New procure to pay systems are being not be appropriate to comment on this matter at this introduced, in line with the recommendations of the time. OEP, to improve controls over the procurement process, reduce costs and increase the opportunities for collaborative procurement. The Law Officers Departments continue to work JUSTICE collectively to identify and deliver further opportunities for efficiency savings in OEP areas and are undertaking British Petroleum a review to ensure that they are best positioned to contribute to the £9 billion which will be delivered in Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice the next spending period. whether officials in his Department took a minute or Departmental Domestic Visits other record of the telephone calls between Sir Mark Allen, Senior Consultant at BP, and him in (a) October 2007 and (b) November 2007. [301573] David Simpson: To ask the Solicitor-General on how (a) (b) many occasions she visited Scotland, Wales Mr. Straw: The fact that the phone calls had been (c) and Northern Ireland in an official capacity in the made was recorded, and has already been made public. last 12 months. [303492] From my recollection both calls were brief, no formal The Solicitor-General: I have made one official visit record of the calls was taken, and no other record of the to Scotland during the last 12 months. calls remains. Departmental Scientists Debts: Advisory Services

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Solicitor-General how many Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific Justice (1) what discussions officials of his Department posts there are in the Law Officers’ Departments. have had with the Prime Minister’s Office on the [302029] regulation of debt management schemes; [302658] 579W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 580W

(2) what meetings his Department held with outside such consultations involve discussions with and input organisations prior to the publication of the from a wide range of departments, including the Cabinet consultation on the introduction of a statutory debt Office. management scheme; [302659] The consultation paper makes it clear that the (3) for what reason the consultation on the introduction Government have no set view on which, if any, of the of a statutory debt management scheme was not published options proposed should be taken forward. However, it in July 2009; [302660] has made it clear that only reasonable costs should be recoverable by providers and is seeking views on the (4) what discussions Ministers in his Department had level at which these should be set should there be a with interested parties prior to the publication of the consensus to move forward with either the introduction consultation on the introduction of a statutory debt some form of protocol or the implementation of the management scheme; [302761] powers in Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement (5) what representations his Department has received Act 2007. to its consultation on debt management schemes to It is expected that the results of the consultation will date; [302762] be available in the new year, at which time the Government (6) what his policy is on the generation of profits would announce what action it plans to take in this from debt management schemes operating under the area. provisions of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement The consultation paper can be accessed via the Ministry Act 2007; and if he will make a statement; [302763] of Justice website at: (7) when he expects to publish his Department’s http://www.justice.gov.uk/consultations/debt-management- response to its consultation on debt management schemes. schemes.htm [302874] Departmental Contracts

Bridget Prentice: The current economic downturn is Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice causing real hardship for many hardworking consumers what criteria his Department uses in determining the and the Government are determined to do all it can to award of contracts; and how much his Department and help those in financial difficulties, while balancing this its predecessors spent on the advertisement of tenders against creditors’ rights to recover their debts wherever for Government contracts since 1997. [303098] possible, both now and in the future. Mr. Wills: Contracts are awarded on the basis of the Following concerns about the operation of this sector, most economically advantageous offer taking into account the consultation paper “Debt Management Schemes— economic, technical and commercial considerations using delivering effective and balanced solutions for debtors criteria linked to the subject matter of the contract. No and creditors” was published on 18 September 2009. It costs are incurred by the Ministry of Justice on the looks at the current operation of the debt management advertisement of tenders. We are required to advertise market, seeking views on whether any changes are certain types of contracts in the Official Journal of the needed in this area and, if so, what those changes European Union (OJEU) which is a free of charge should be. service and we also take advantage of other free trade The consultation paper sets out three broad options. journals. First, to continue with the measures currently under Departmental Internet way to raise awareness about current schemes and enforce existing rules with operators. Second, to improve current schemes without regulation, possibly through the Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice introduction of a protocol. Or third, to implement the what the cost was of maintaining his Department’s Lord Chancellor’s powers to approve debt management website in the 2008-09 financial year; and what the schemes contained in Chapter 4 of Part 5 of the Tribunals, forecast cost is of maintaining websites within his Courts and Enforcement Act (TCEA) 2007. responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. [302420] During the development of the paper, officials held a Mr. Wills: The Ministry of Justice does not separately number of bi-lateral meetings with stakeholders from identify expenditure on website maintenance in its the credit, advice and debt management plan operator accounting records. However, the Ministry’s Information, sectors. These were supplemented by a series of seminars Communications and Technology (ICT) division holds to wider audiences at various locations across the country offline records on this expenditure as follows: and the creation a key stakeholder group consisting of 2008-09 maintenance cost representatives from all sectors that has met several times. £ The Government had originally intended to publish Ministry of Justice HQ 1,410,000.00 the consultation paper before the summer recess. However, Tribunals Service 146,256.00 publication was delayed to allow the paper to reflect Office of the Public Guardian 0 early comments on the Consumer White Paper published 2009-10 forecast maintenance cost on 2 July 2009, which detailed wider Government action £ to support consumers. Ministry of Justice HQ 1,410,000.00 This consultation has been developed jointly by the Tribunals Service 164,615.00 Ministry of Justice, the Department for Business, Innovation Office of the Public Guardian 0 and Skills and the Insolvency Service. As is normal, 581W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 582W

It is not possible to reliably distinguish website High risk offenders will be given priority by probation maintenance costs (incurred or forecast) from other IT areas over those of medium risk. Preparation work expenditure for HM Courts Service and the National needs to be completed with offenders before they can Offender Management Service, except at disproportionate commence the group work element of a programme. cost. Offenders waiting for a place on a domestic violence Departmental Legislation programme are under the supervision of their offender manager who will monitor and actively manage the risk posed by the offender during the course of the supervision Mr. Andrew Turner: To ask the Secretary of State for period. Justice what criminal offences have been created in each year since 1997. [302855] The National Offender Management Service are working to reduce waiting times by ensuring staff are familiar Maria Eagle: I refer the hon. Member to the answers with the referral criteria, and by improved liaison between I gave the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris the offender manager, the programme delivery team, Grayling) on 16 March 2009, Official Report, column and the court. 955W and the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend, A further three domestic abuse programmes are also East (James Duddridge) on 9 October 2008, Official currently being piloted with a view to extending the Report, column 785W. range of interventions available to perpetrators. The information in the Libraries of the House is still The figures have been drawn from administrative current and there are no immediate plans to update the data systems and although care is taken when processing information and to do so could only be done at and analysing the returns, the detail collected is subject disproportionate cost. to the inaccuracies inherent in any large scale recording system. The figures may also be subject to change as Departmental Scientists cases are updated.

Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Driving Justice how many (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific posts there are in his Department. [302025] Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice what mechanisms are in place to ensure that staff who Mr. Wills: There are no scientific adviser posts within drive (a) a vehicle for which (i) his Department and the Ministry of Justice, nor are there any civil servants (ii) one of its executive agencies is responsible have valid working in scientific posts. A small number of staff in driving licences and (b) their own vehicles in the course the National Offender Management Service work as of their official duties for (A) his Department and (B) scientific officers or with the scientific grade group but one of its executive agency have valid driving licences these are in statistical or professional and technical, and insurance; what guidance is issued to those staff in rather than scientific roles. The Ministry of Justice as a respect of road safety while carrying out official duties; whole employs a number of statisticians, economists, what steps are taken to monitor compliance with that social researchers and operational researchers but these guidance; what requirements there are on such staff to are not classified as scientific posts. report to their line managers accidents in which they are involved while driving in the course of their official Some scientific services are provided to the Ministry duties; and whether such reports are investigated. of Justice by staff employed by the other Government [302166] Departments most notably the Home Office Scientific Development Branch. Mr. Wills: Policy, rules and guidance related to driving Domestic Violence for work, and occupational road-risk are stated in: (i) Ministry of Justice Departmental Car Scheme User Guidance Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (ii) Ministry of Justice Staff Handbook what the (a) longest, (b) average and (c) shortest (iii) Ministry of Justice Corporate Health and Safety documentation waiting period for entry on to a domestic violence perpetrator programme was in England and Wales in MoJ staff who drive either (a) an official vehicle, or each year since such programmes were introduced. (b) their own vehicle in the course of their duties must [302189] complete an initial driver declaration form and submit a copy of their licence. Maria Eagle: The following table shows the longest, A driver licence and insurance check form must also average and shortest number of weeks that elapse from be completed once a year by staff, with their line manager, the date of sentence or licence for offences of violence for staff using their own vehicle on official duties. or abuse to the commencement of domestic violence programme requirements in England and Wales from Line managers are required to check the driving 2005-06 to 2008-09. licence of each individual using a departmental vehicle on a six monthly basis. Domestic violence programme waiting times in England and Wales In addition to these requirements, staff submitting a 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 claim form seeking reimbursement for mileage expenses Longest 155.1 161.5 166.1 155.9 incurred while driving their own vehicle in the course of Average1 27.1 30.0 31.8 29.4 their duties, have to sign a declaration that they hold a Shortest 0.1 0 0.1 0 valid driving licence; the vehicle has a current MOT and 1Average across 40 probation areas, excludes data from Cheshire and their motor insurance policy covers the use of the Greater Manchester. vehicle on official business. 583W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 584W

Drivers of official vehicles and drivers using their driving as a result of (i) drink-driving, (ii) speeding and own vehicles on official business must immediately notify (iii) dangerous or reckless driving in each of the last their line managers if their licences are endorsed, or 10 years. [301275] withdrawn. Drivers involved in any accident must notify their line Claire Ward: The number of disqualifications imposed managers (regardless of who owns the car being driven). at all courts in the Sussex police force area and England In addition, drivers of official vehicles must disclose all for driving etc. after consuming alcohol or taking drugs, material facts to the insurer and complete an accident speed limit offences, dangerous and careless driving claims form. offences, is shown in tables 1 and 2 from 1998 to 2007 All accident reports are assessed. Where the seriousness (latest available). of the accident warrants further attention, an investigation There is no specific offence of reckless driving, thus will be carried out. information included in the table is for offences of Driving Offences dangerous and careless driving. Court proceedings data are not available at parliamentary Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for constituency level. Justice how many people in (a) Lewes constituency, Data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January (b) Sussex and (c) England were disqualified from 2010.

Table 1: Number of disqualifications imposed at all courts in the Sussex police force area, for selected motoring offences, from 1998 to 20071,2 Number of offences Offence type 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 20043 200520062007

Dangerousdriving68716381817583988171 Driving etc, after consuming 1,998 2,119 2,014 2,250 2,224 2,343 2,412 2,298 2,381 2,389 alcohol or taking drugs Careless driving 42 50 45 56 56 59 54 32 50 47 Speed limit offences 351 262 306 209 146 111 81 10 179 151 Total 2,459 2,502 2,428 2,596 2,507 2,588 2,630 2,529 2,691 2,658 1 It is known that for some police force areas, the reporting of court proceedings, in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than complete. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are use. 3 Figures given are not as originally published within the Home Office Statistical Bulletin ″Motoring Offences and Breath Test Statistics, England and Wales, 2004″, which was released on 30 March 2006. The figures originally released in the above named publication were, due to a processing error, incorrect. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services - Ministry of Justice

Table 2: Number of disqualifications imposed at all courts in England, for selected motoring offences, from 1998 to 20071,2 Number of offences Offence type 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 20043 2005 2006 2007

Dangerous driving 4,570 4,269 4,225 4,116 5,071 6,220 6,177 5,256 4,914 4,675 Driving etc, after 80,332 77,827 74,697 73,685 79,310 81,139 84,669 81,107 81,461 78,503 consuming alcohol or taking drugs Careless driving 1,423 1,445 1,478 1,861 2,026 1,988 2,240 2,164 2,085 2,232 Speed limit offences 11,565 11,551 10,695 10,951 8,739 9,330 9,582 9,875 8,977 7,917 Total 97,890 95,092 91,095 90,613 95,146 98,677 102,668 98,402 97,437 93,327 1 It is known that for some police force areas, the reporting of court proceedings, in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than complete. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are use. 3 Figures given include revised figures for Sussex police force area. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services - Ministry of Justice.

Driving Offences: Norwich Maria Eagle: The number of disqualifications imposed at all courts in the Norfolk police force area for speed limit offences, dangerous driving and driving after consuming alcohol or taking drugs, from 1997 to 2007 Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (latest available) is given in the following table. how many people in Norwich North constituency have been disqualified from driving following an offence of Court proceedings data are not available at parliamentary (a) speeding, (b) dangerous driving and (c) drink- constituency level. driving in each year since 1997. [301699] Data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January 2010. 585W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 586W

Number of disqualifications imposed at all courts in the Norfolk police force area, for selected motoring offences, from 1997 to 20071, 2 Number of offences Offence type 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

Dangerous 50 40 55 34 37 52 81 70 66 66 82 driving Driving etc. after 1,037 1,001 947 872 1,065 1,179 1,216 1,178 1,217 1,261 1,186 consuming alcohol or taking drugs Speed limit 290 202 280 188 251 193 321 400 400 351 285 offences Total 1,377 1,243 1,282 1,094 1,353 1,424 1,618 1,648 1,683 1,678 1,553 1 It is known that for some police force areas, the reporting of court proceedings, in particular those relating to summary motoring offences, may be less than complete. 2 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extractedfrom large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are used. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services: Ministry of Justice.

Chloe Smith: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (latest available). Sentences of immediate custody imposed how many convictions of residents of Norwich North at all courts are given in Table 2. constituency for each type of motoring offence have Court proceedings data held centrally do not identify resulted in a custodial sentence since 1997. [301701] where those convicted are resident. Data are not available at parliamentary constituency level. Maria Eagle: The number of convictions at all courts in the Norfolk police force area for motoring offences Data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January (by offence type) is given in Table 1 from 1997 to 2007 2010.

Table 1: Defendants found guilty at all courts in the Norfolk police force area, for motoring offences,1 by offence type, from 1997 to 20072,3 Number Offence group Offence type 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

2 Dangerous 45 40 47 31 32 59 67 60 56 59 72 driving 3 Driving etc., 1,025 1,034 915 838 1,018 1,109 1,150 1,105 1,141 1,241 1,119 after consuming alcohol or taking drugs 4 Careless 724 771 814 809 1,009 857 662 497 549 514 490 driving 5 Accident 144 157 128 109 118 127 131 137 133 146 103 offences 7 Driving 484 464 525 485 593 595 642 582 542 503 475 licence related offences 9 Vehicle 2,503 2,193 2,072 1,848 1,640 1,944 2,620 2,335 2,149 2,199 1,978 insurance offences 10 Vehicle 322 47 52 218 175 222 272 125 42 21 10 registration and excise licence offences 11 Work record 53 39 28 19 16 26 22 16 13 14 12 and employment offences 12 Operator’s 252111171311108643 licence offences 13 Vehicle test 645 505 420 365 343 321 256 211 223 306 283 offences 14 Fraud, 129 78 76 61 83 67 58 32 20 39 25 forgery etc associated with vehicle or driver records 15 Vehicle or 286 261 203 179 190 170 150. 162 116 138 110 part in dangerous or defective condition 16 Speed limit 1,157 1,315 1,589 1,306 1,507 1,264 2,323 2,737 2,798 3,426 2,643 offences 587W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 588W

Table 1: Defendants found guilty at all courts in the Norfolk police force area, for motoring offences,1 by offence type, from 1997 to 20072,3 Number Offence group Offence type 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

18 Neglect of 809 655 347 253 265 330 255 158 142 182 188 traffic directions 19 Neglect of 47 82 48 39 25 18 21 20 14 8 19 pedestrian rights 20 Obstruction, 116 82 67 64 113 101 80 58 36 26 18 waiting and parking offences 21 Lighting 343818356224233215026 offences 22 Noise 76 85 55 40 30 32 26 17 7 14 18 offences 23 Load offences 126 161 125 74 85 97 125 58 35 56 31 24 Offences 638106834475 peculiar to motor cycles 25 Miscellaneous 467 161 202 202 227 191 882 990 1,094 935 842 motoring offences Total 9,223 8,192 7,750 7,002 7,494 7,571 9,797 9,345 9,141 9,888 8,470

Table 2: Offenders sentenced to immediate custody all courts in the Norfolk police force area, for motoring offences,1 by offence type, from 1997 to 20072, 3 Number Offence group Offence type 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007

2 Dangerous 19 11 16 14 21 27 34 26 19 24 28 driving 3 Driving etc, 31 27 39 19 31 26 25 37 26 23 36 after consuming alcohol or taking drugs 5 Accident 2—— 3 1—— 1— 1 2 offences 7 Driving licence 75 74 106 125 189 160 158 105 94 54 67 related offences 9 Vehicle ——————— 1——— insurance offences 14 Fraud, forgery —————— 1 1——— etc associated with vehicle or driver records 16 Speed limit ——————— 1——— offences 25 Miscellaneous —— 1 2——————— motoring offences Total 127 112 162 163 242 213 218, 172 139 102 133 1 Offence groups are shown only where data have been reported within the period given. 2 The statistics relate to persons for whom these offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. 3 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those data are use. Source: Justice Statistics Analytical Services—Ministry of Justice.

National Offender Management Information System: capital). The majority of this work has been re-used in Expenditure the Prison-NOMIS project, which now forms part of the NOMIS Programme.

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Peterborough Prison Justice what expenditure his Department incurred on the C-NOMIS IT project. [302334] Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice (1) how many offenders were detained at (a) Maria Eagle: The cost of the C-NOMIS project was HMP Peterborough and (b) YoungOffender Institution £160.7 million (which excludes depreciation and cost of Peterborough as at (i) 31 December 2008, (ii) 31 March 589W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 590W

2009, (iii) 30 June 2009 and (iv) 30 September 2009; Maria Eagle: The following table gives the numbers what proportion of capacity at the relevant institution of adults and young offenders, and also the number of these figures represent; and if he will make a statement; foreign nationals detained in HMP Peterborough at the [303550] dates shown, with the prison population total given as a (2) how many foreign prisoners were detained at percentage of operational capacity. HMP Peterborough as at (a) 31 December 2008, (b) 31 March 2009, (c) 30 June 2009 and (d) 30 September 2009; and if he will make a statement. [303551]

Total as percentage of operational Operational Foreign Adults Young offenders Total population capacity capacity nationals

31December 2008 864 71 935 1,008 93 147 31 March 2009 869 64 933 1,008 93 150 30 June 2009 893 57 950 1,008 94 175

Operational Capacity services were subject to a rigorous evaluation at the time The operational capacity of a prison is the total of procurement and are subject to independent quality number of prisoners that an establishment can hold control. taking into account control, security and the proper Independent research carried out by the Office for operation of the planned regime. It is determined by National Statistics in to the effectiveness of MDT area managers on the basis of operational judgement http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/rdsolr0305.pdf and experience. concluded that the mandatory drug testing programme Figures for the numbers of prisoners held in all met its key objectives. prison establishments in England and Wales can be The effectiveness of CBDT is difficult to isolate from found at the following website: the range of other interventions offered to drug-misusing http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/ offenders in prisons. However, contingency management, populationincustody.htm which operates by providing incentives to modify behaviour, Figures for the numbers of foreign national prisoners is well evidenced as being effective in the treatment of are available at this site for each quarter. drug misuse and is recommended by the National Institute The prison service website at: for Clinical Excellence (NICE). CBDT is broadly consistent with the principles of contingency management. http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/ Both MDT and CBDT continue to be integral parts gives figures for operational capacity. of the wider NOMS Drug Strategy in prisons. The These figures have been drawn from administrative success of the strategy overall is reflected in the reduction IT systems which, as with any large scale recording in drug misuse in prisons of 68 per cent. since 1996-07. system, are subject to possible errors with data entry and processing. Prisoners Release

Mr. Burns: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prison: Drugs pursuant to the answer of 24 November 2009, Official Report, column 85W, on prisoners release, when he expects (a) his Department’s investigations to be Philip Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice concluded and (b) the hon. Member for West what assessment he has made of the effectiveness of the Chelmsford to be given a summary of the findings. drug testing programme in prisons. [301384] [302657]

Maria Eagle: There are three types of drug testing Maria Eagle: It is expected that the investigating programmes in prisons: officer’s report will be complete by 4 December. Depending clinical drug testing which may be used by healthcare staff in on the recommendations in the report, and the possible support of drug misuse diagnosis; need for any further proceedings as a result, I will write mandatory drug testing (MDT); and to the hon. Member as soon as possible. compact based drug testing (CBDT). Prisoners: Muslims Clinical drug testing is the responsibility of Primary Care Trusts and must be undertaken in line with Mr. Ronnie Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State Department of Health Guidance - Drug Misuse and for Justice what recent reports he has received on the Dependence: UK Guidelines on Clinical Management. exemption of Muslim prisoners from participation in Diagnosis does not rely entirely on indicative drug sex offender treatment programmes. [302181] screening results. Drug testing methodologies used by the National Maria Eagle: We are not aware of any such reports. Offender Management Service (NOMS) match the There are no exemptions from any parts of the Sex requirements of the drug testing programmes, and are Offender Treatment Programme (SOTP) on the grounds based on analytical industry standards. Drug testing of religion. SOTP, as with other offending behaviour 591W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 592W programmes has clear selection criteria, based on risk Maria Eagle: The information requested is currently and need, and rigorous assessment procedures which being collated and I hope to be in a position to write to are used to assess the suitability of offenders referred the hon. Member within the next two weeks to provide for the programme. the data requested for each year since 2000, when the Youth Justice Board was established. Self-Harm: Prisoners Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many young people in each age group to 18 have John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for been placed on remand and (a) subsequently not Justice (1) what mechanisms are in place to monitor the convicted or (b) convicted but given a non-custodial risk of self-harm and suicide among prisoners detained sentence in each year since 1997, broken down by the on the female prison estate; [302324] period of time spent on remand. [303351] (2) how many incidents of self-harm among prisoners have been reported in each of the last four Maria Eagle: It is not possible to provide the data quarters of the last year. [302325] broken down by period of time spent on remand as requested. However, the information otherwise requested Maria Eagle: Prisoners at risk of suicide and self-harm is currently being collated and I hope to be in a position in both the male and female prison estate are identified, to write to the hon. Member within the next two weeks. cared for and monitored using the Assessment, Care in Custody and Teamwork (ACCT) process. This is a prisoner-centred, flexible and accountable care-planning system based on a multi-disciplinary approach. ACCT SCOTLAND was introduced across the prison estate in partnership with the Department of Health during 2005-07. Departmental Information Officers Every death in prison is a tragedy, and affects families, staff and other prisoners deeply. Ministers, the Ministry of Justice and NOMS are committed to learning from Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland each death and to reducing the number of such incidents. how many full-time equivalent press officers (a) are Good care and support from staff save many lives, but employed by and (b) work for his Department. such instances go largely unreported. Prisons successfully [303605] keep safe in any given month approximately 1,500 prisoners assessed to be at particular risk of suicide or self-harm. Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office currently employs Deaths in prisons are among the most scrutinised of all three press officers. All work directly for the office. incidents and each case is subject to a police investigation and an independent investigation by the Prisons Probation Ombudsman. Robust systems are in place for monitoring Departmental Internet deaths and learning from them. NOMS does not compile quarterly statistics on incidents Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Scotland of self-harm in prisons. However, there was a provisional what the cost was of maintaining his Department’s total of 24,686 incidents of self-harm recorded on website in the 2008-09 financial year; and what the NOMS Incident Reporting System in 2008, of which forecast cost is of maintaining websites within his 12,938 incidents were in the female estate. In the community responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. [302422] self-harm is often covert but in prison it is much harder to hide. Ann McKechin: The cost of maintaining the Scotland NOMS has a broad, integrated and evidence-based Office website in the financial year 2008-09 was £15,052.50 prisoner suicide prevention and self-harm management plus VAT. strategy that seeks to reduce the distress of all those in The cost included the redevelopment of the site including prison. This encompasses proactively identifying prisoners a comprehensive in-house content management system at risk of suicide and self-harm through the ACCT which represents considerable value for money and cost procedures described above. ACCT has helped prisons savings for the office when implemented as well as now manage self-harm. Approximately 33,000 ACCT plans and in the future. were opened in 2008. More than one plan can be opened for any prisoner. There are no easy answers to The projected maintenance costs for the Scotland managing self-harming behaviour but NOMS remains Office website for the financial year 2009-10 are £3,500 committed to finding ways to manage it. plus VAT.

Young Offenders: Remand in Custody Departmental Travel

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for how many young people in each year group to 18 charged Scotland on what date he last travelled by (a) bus and with each category of offences have been placed on (b) taxi in the course of his official duties. [302736] remand for (a) less than one month, (b) between one and three months, (c) between three and six months, Mr. Jim Murphy: I last travelled by (a) bus on (d) between six and 12 months and (e) over 12 months 5 November 2009 and (b) taxi on 27 October 2009 in in each year since 1997. [303348] the course of my official duties. 593W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 594W

Immobilisation of Vehicles Departmental Public Expenditure

Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Scotland how much his Department has paid in vehicle Media and Sport what the cost to his Department was clamping charges incurred on (a) privately-owned and of provision of office facilities to (a) special advisers (b) publicly-owned land in each of the last 10 years; and (b) press officers in the 2008-09 financial year. and if he will make a statement. [302755] [302976]

Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office does not separately Mr. Simon: The cost of provision of office facilities record information on vehicle clamping charges. to special advisers and press officers in 2008-09 was as follows:

£

CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT Special advisers 20,520 Press officers 71,910 Capita Costs include an appropriate share of rent, business rates, service charges, utilities maintenance and Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, accommodation management charges. Media and Sport whether any contracts between Capita Group plc and his Department have been Digital Broadcasting: Complaints cancelled before completion since 1997; and whether Capita Group plc has been liable for any penalties Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, arising from failings in the administration of contracts Media and Sport how many complaints he has received since 1997. [303083] about digital switchover from residents of (a) East Devon, (b) Devon and (c) England. [303449] Mr. Simon: No contracts between Capita Group plc and the Department were cancelled prior to completion. Mr. Simon: The information requested is not held No penalties for contractual defaults have been imposed. centrally in the manner requested; to provide it would incur disproportionate costs. Departmental Contracts Digital Broadcasting: Radio

Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Stephen Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Media and Sport what criteria his Department uses in Culture, Media and Sport whether his Department has determining the award of contracts; and how much his made an assessment of the implications for the use of Department has spent on the advertisement of tenders car radios with the digital switchover. [303310] for Government contracts since 1997. [303129] Mr. Simon: We have worked closely with vehicle Mr. Simon: Each contract has its own unique set of manufacturers during the Digital Radio Working Group criteria on which the award will be made. This will be in 2008 and in the lead up to the Digital Britain White dependent on the specific nature of work that is required. Paper to consider the impact of the digital radio switchover All criteria used are in accordance with best practice, in on motorists. In addition, we have agreed with the terms of seeking the most economically advantageous Consumer Expert Group to extend its remit to advise tender. Government on a wide range of consumer issues relating The Department only holds information on the cost to radio switchover. We will continue to work with these of advertising tenders from 2006-07, when electronic stakeholders as the digital radio switchover programme tendering was introduced. develops. We have also committed to a full cost benefit analysis £ of the digital radio switchover, including the impact on 2006-07 4,112 in-car listening, before any switchover date is set. 2007-08 4,112 Digital Switchover Help Scheme 2008-09 4,112 Mr. Swire: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Departmental Domestic Visits Media and Sport how much the Switchover Help Scheme for digital switchover has cost. [303450] David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on how many occasions he Mr. Bradshaw: The Digital Switchover Help Scheme visited (a) Scotland, (b) Wales and (c) Northern is funded through £603 million ringfenced within the Ireland in an official capacity in the last 12 months. TV licence fee income over the period of switchover. [303485] Switchover Help Scheme expenditure is published in the BBC’s Annual Report and Accounts, published on Mr. Bradshaw: Since 5 June 2009, I have visited the BBC website. As of 31 March 2009, the cumulative Scotland once and Wales once, in an official capacity. total spent by the Help Scheme was £29.5 million. This I have not visited Northern Ireland. figure includes expenditure in 2007-08 and is net of 595W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 596W

£0.8 million received from those eligible people who are UK School Games not in receipt of income related benefits and who therefore pay a £40 fee. Hugh Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport pursuant to the answer of 23 November 2009, Official Report, columns 37-38W, Driving on the UK School Games, if he will provide a detailed breakdown of the estimated final cost of the Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for £3.3 million spent on the UK School Games in 2009. Culture, Media and Sport what mechanisms are in [303370] place to ensure that staff who drive (a) a vehicle for which (i) his Department and (ii) its executive agency is Mr. Sutcliffe: Youth Sport Trust has confirmed that responsible have valid driving licences and (b) their the final cost of the 2009 UK School Games was own vehicles in the course of their official duties for approximately £3.1 million. A breakdown of the expenditure (A) his Department and (B) its executive agency have is set out in the table: valid driving licences and insurance; what guidance is 2009 issued to those staff in respect of road safety while Description Cost (£) carrying out official duties; what steps are taken to monitor compliance with that guidance; what Event Management, Delivery and Planning 1,873,000 requirements there are on such staff to report to their Travel and accommodation 795,000 line managers accidents in which they are involved Medical costs 60,000 while driving in the course of their official duties; and Catering 82,000 whether such reports are investigated. [302170] Venue costs, Sports services—timing, equipment etc. 450,000 Other—External staff, IT, printed materials, insurance, 136,000 legal fees etc. Mr. Simon: The information requested is as follows: Event management 350,000 Department for Culture, Media and Sport The Department currently does not have any vehicles Competition Step Change 675,000 for which it is directly responsible, and as such employees Development work—payments and support to national 475,000 who choose to use motor travel for travel on official governing bodies business must use their privately owned motor vehicle. Competition venues look, clothing and kit 200,000 If an employee chooses to use their vehicle, they must satisfy certain insurance conditions details of which are Raise Profile and Promote PE and School Sport 227,000 made on the Department’s internal website. It is the Event production, media, website etc. 227,000 employee’s responsibility to ensure they understand and fulfil these conditions. Employees are required to declare Olympic/Paralympic spirit 190,000 when making claim for travel and subsistence that they Work with British Olympic Foundation, including 80,000 know and understand the insurance requirements, and Athlete Village, ambassadors etc. that they are covered accordingly. There is no requirement Opening/closing ceremonies 110,000 for employees to demonstrate that they are licensed to drive. No specific guidance is issued to employees on road safety, nor does the Department monitor compliance, Development of volunteering 50,000 however under the Civil Service Code, the Department (Operational costs of volunteering are covered under does expect its employees to accord with the law at all event management) times when on official business and should incidents arise behave appropriately. No accidents while driving Child Protection and Welfare 50,000 on official business have been recorded, and there is no Including work with NSPCC’s Child Protection in expectation that an employee will report an accident as Sport Unit the Department has been indemnified by the employee’s insurance. Should the employee be injured in an accident, Other (Disability Commission, monitoring and evaluation, 45,000 the employee will become subject to the Department’s miscellaneous etc.) sickness absence policy. The Royal Parks Total expenditure 3,110,000 Staff in The Royal Parks (TRP) who are required to drive TRP vehicles must first undertake induction training. As part of the induction, staff must show a current NORTHERN IRELAND valid driving licence. Thereafter Line Managers are required to monitor their staff for compliance with the Children: Abuse training and inspect the driving licence once a year. Confirmation of the check is recorded. Accidents must Mark Durkan: To ask the Secretary of State for be reported to the Line Manager and the Fleet Manager Northern Ireland what discussions his Department has and each vehicle has a log book to record such occurrences. had with (a) the Northern Ireland Executive and (b) All accidents are investigated. Staff are not encouraged authorities in the Republic of Ireland on the to use their own vehicles for work but exceptionally implications for matters within his Department’s where they do they are required to confirm they have responsibility of the report of the Commission to appropriate insurance as part of our reimbursement Inquire into Child Abuse in the Republic of Ireland. procedures. [302484] 597W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 598W

Mr. Woodward: To date neither I nor my officials The study may provide options for a series of future have held discussions with either the NI Executive or detailed operational reviews that will examine performance the Irish Government on this subject. On 12 November and make recommendations for measurable improvements the Minister for Health, Social Service and Public Safety in service delivery to include the simplification, copied me a letter that he had received from a solicitor standardisation, and rationalisation of functions to drive in Northern Ireland concerning this matter. efficiency. Identified savings will contribute to the £9 billion which will be delivered in the next spending Departmental Assets period.

Departmental Internet Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what assets of his Department are planned to be sold in each year from 2009-10 to 2013-14; what the Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) description and (b) book value of each such asset Northern Ireland what the cost was of maintaining his is; what the expected revenue from each such sale is; Department’s website in the 2008-09 financial year; and and if he will make a statement. [300206] what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites within his responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. [302408]

Mr. Woodward: The assets of the Northern Ireland Paul Goggins: The cost to my Department in the Office (NIO), including its arms length bodies and the 2008-09 year for maintaining the website was £6,456.00. Public Prosecution Service Northern Ireland but excluding As this is a contracted out service the anticipated costs its agencies and NDPBs, that have either been sold or for 2010-11 will be the same as 2008-09. are planned to be sold in 2009-10 and 2010-11 are shown in the following table. Departmental Scientists £ Net book value at Actual/expected Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Description 31 March 2009 revenue Northern Ireland how many (a) scientific advisers and 2009-10 House 314,450 1300,000 (b) civil servants in scientific posts there are in his House 230,200 1227,000 Department. [302024] House 227,000 1190,000 Mr. Woodward: In the Northern Ireland Office Core 1 House 101,050 97,000 Department there are no scientific advisers or scientific 2010-11 House 177,300 2— posts. 1 Sold 2 For Sale £177,300 There are scientific posts in one of the Department’s agencies, Forensic Science Northern Ireland. The requested Determining which assets will be sold in 2011-12 to information in relation to these posts is as follows: 2013-14 will form part of the planning process for the (a) The Forensic Science Agency does not have specific scientific next spending review. advisers, (b) There are 144 civil servants, of which there are seven lead Departmental Cost Effectiveness scientists, in scientific posts in the Forensic Science Agency.

Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Departmental Taxis Ireland what efficiency savings projects (a) his Department and (b) its agencies put in place under the Ian Stewart: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern Operational Efficiency Programme; on what date each Ireland what contracts his Department has with private such project was initiated; how much each such project hire taxi companies; and what expenditure his Department was expected to contribute to departmental savings; has incurred against each such contract in each of the how much had been saved through each such project last three years. [300838] on the latest date for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [300930] Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office (NIO), including its arms length bodies and the Public Prosecution Paul Goggins: There is no separate OEP target in this Service Northern Ireland but excluding its agencies and SR period beyond the Northern Ireland Office (NIO) NDPBs, currently uses two contracts with private hire savings of £125 million as part of our contribution to taxi companies. These contracts belong to the Department the CSR07 target of £35 billion, which is reported on in of Finance and Personnel in Belfast and the Cabinet the Autumn Performance Report. Office in London. The names of the taxi companies cannot be disclosed for staff security reasons. In response to the Operational Efficiency Programme, the Department’s Business Performance Review Team The increase in expenditure on taxis in the Northern (BPRT) commenced a scoping study to consider the Ireland Office (NIO) followed a review in 2007 when the delivery of the Department’s back office functions in Department adopted a policy which made greater use September 2009. The study will include IT, Finance, of taxis rather than private hire cars. While this change Human Resources, Travel Services, Estates Management, in policy has led to an increase in the cost of taxis, it has Procurement, Legal Services, Information Services and generated estimated whole year net savings of £150,000 current assets, including accommodation. The assessment The following table shows the total expenditure incurred will take into account current and future business, by the NIO against these contracts in each of the last organisational, and customer requirements. three years: 599W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 600W

Estimates of the spirits level of fraud in 2006-07 were £ published by HMRC in “Measuring Indirect Tax Gaps— 2006-07 34,716.05 2008” in October 2008 which is available in the House 2007-08 49,555.89 of Commons Library. This is the most recent available 2008-09 111,766.27 estimate.

Each member of staff is advised that, before any Ms Angela C. Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the business related journey is made, the most cost effective Exchequer what progress has been made on the HM means of transport must be considered. Where the use Revenue and Customs strategy on alcohol fraud since of public transport or private car is not possible or April 2009. [302664] economic, then the journey may be made by taxi. The NIO keeps the cost of travel on official business Sarah McCarthy-Fry: HM Treasury continually monitors under regular review. alcohol fraud and other related issues, and any changes would be announced at the time of the Pre-Budget Immobilisation of Vehicles Report.

Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Capital Gains Tax: Second Homes Northern Ireland how much his Department has paid in vehicle clamping charges incurred on (a) privately- Andrew George: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer owned and (b) publicly-owned land in each of the last what steps HM Revenue and Customs takes to ensure 10 years; and if he will make a statement. [302747] that all second home owners who should pay capital gains tax do so. [302467] Paul Goggins: The Northern Ireland Office, including its arms length bodies and the Public Prosecution Service Mr. Timms: Second homeowners self-assess their liability Northern Ireland but excluding its agencies and NDPBs, to capital gains tax (CGT) on the disposal of a second has not made any payments in relation to vehicle clamping home. HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) may inquire charges during the last 10 years. into returns where a disposal has been returned to check that the liability to tax is correct. Police Service of Northern Ireland In addition, HMRC uses external databases of property sales to identify disposals of properties where no gain Mr. Dodds: To ask the Secretary of State for Northern on the disposal has been notified to the Department, Ireland (1) how many (a) regular and (b) full-time but where there is no evidence that the property is the reserve police officers there have been in each constituency individual’s main or only residence. in Northern Ireland in each year since 2001; [303465] The Department is currently running a project to (2) what percentage of the budget of the Police check whether income and capital gains have been Service of Northern Ireland is spent on administrative properly returned on certain types of property. To date, costs; [303466] almost 4,500 cases with omitted disposals have been (3) how many police officers in Northern Ireland are settled and around 2,500 cases are currently under assigned to duties other than front-line policing; inquiry. [303467] (4) how many attacks there have been on (a) police Child Benefit officers, (b) traffic wardens and (c) Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency workers in Northern Ireland in each Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer year since 2005; [303469] (1) what proportion of applications for child benefit (5) how many disabled people are employed as (a) were completed within (a) four, (b) eight and (c) regular police officers and (b) full-time reservists in the 12 weeks in each of the last three years; [302233] Police Service of Northern Ireland. [303473] (2) what guidelines he has issued in respect of the maximum number of weeks required to process Paul Goggins: These are operational matters for the applications for child benefit from (a) all applicants Chief Constable. I have asked him to reply directly to and (b) parents of adopted children. [302235] the hon. Member, and copies of his letters will be placed in the Library of the House. Mr. Timms: The information requested is not available. For information on the time taken to pay new child benefit claims in 2006-07, 2007-08 and 2008-09, I refer TREASURY the hon. Member to the answers I gave to: the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, South and East Cleveland Alcoholic Drinks: Fraud (Dr. Kumar) on 2 February 2009, Official Report, column 894W; Ms Angela C. Smith: To ask the Chancellor of the the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew) on 22 October 2008, Exchequer what estimate he has made of the revenue Official Report, column 356W; and lost to the Exchequer through alcohol fraud in the tax the hon. Member for Glasgow, East (John Mason) on 27 April year (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09. [302663] 2009, Official Report, columns 1046-47W. HM Revenue and Customs aims to pay 66 per cent. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Estimates of the loss of revenue of new child benefit claims in nine working days in arising from alcohol fraud across all alcoholic beverages 2009-10 and all claims in an average of 20 calendar are not available. days. 601W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 602W

Mr. Chaytor: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Public Expenditure (1) what proportion of applications for child benefit from parents of adopted children were processed within Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer the target maximum number of weeks in each of the how much revenue from each tax was raised by his last three years; [302234] Department from receipts in (a) Wales, (b) Scotland, (2) how many applications for child benefit were (c) Northern Ireland and (d) England in each of the received from parents of adopted children in each of last five financial years; and how much such revenue the last three years. [302236] was spent in each part of the UK in each such year. [303431] Mr. Timms: The information is not available. HM Revenue and Customs does not record whether a child Mr. Byrne: Figures for tax receipts by tax at the UK is adopted. level are set out in table C6 of the 2009 Budget Report (HC 407). A breakdown of all taxes by country is not Child Care Vouchers available. Figures on public spending by country are published in Public Expenditure Statistical Analyses Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if (Cm 7630). his Department will set targets for the time taken by organisations to transfer child care voucher payments Public Expenditure: Wales to childcare providers. [303345] Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Timms: HM Revenue and Customs does not when he expects the first compensatory payments to be administer any schemes to provide childcare vouchers made in respect of Wales under the Barnett formula to parents. As such, neither HMRC nor HMT are in a following his reconsideration of convergence in position to set targets of the nature requested. spending per head. [303429] Floods: Cumbria Mr. Byrne: As the Secretary of State for Wales announced to Parliament on 26 November 2009, convergence in Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer spending per head will be assessed in the next spending (1) what estimate he has made of the uninsured losses review although convergence is not currently expected. incurred as a consequence of the recent floods in Cumbria; [302147] Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (2) what estimate he has made of the number of what criteria his Department uses to determine people affected by the recent flood in Cumbria who whether Wales is disproportionately disadvantaged in were unable to obtain insurance for (a) their buildings, the allocation of funding under the Barnett formula. (b) the contents of their buildings and (c) neither their [303430] buildings nor the contents of those buildings because of the risk of flooding to their properties; and if he will Mr. Byrne: Identifiable public spending per head in make a statement. [302148] Wales is 14 per cent. above England. Public spending has more than doubled since devolution. The Government Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No such estimate has been will assess spending trends in the next spending review made. However, the Government are sympathetic to as announced by the Secretary of State for Wales on those affected by the Cumbrian floods and have allocated 26 November. an additional £1 million Community Recovery Fund towards the region. Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he expects the full assessment of the extent of KBR convergence under the Barnett formula in respect of Wales as part of his evaluation of the relative position Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Chancellor of the of Wales in respect of the level of funding allocated to Exchequer whether his Department has entered into parts of the UK under that formula to be published. any contracts with Kellogg, Brown and Root or its [303432] subsidiaries since January 2009. [303331] Mr. Byrne: The Government will assess spending Sarah McCarthy-Fry: No. trends per head in the next spending review as announced to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Wales on Members: Correspondence 26 November.

Mr. Hands: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer when the Chief Executive of HM Revenue and when he plans to undertake the first evaluation of the Customs plans to respond to the letters from the hon. relative position of Wales in respect of the level of Member for Hammersmith and Fulham of 28 July and funding allocated to parts of the UK under the Barnett 16 September 2009, sent on behalf of his constituent, formula. [303433] Ms Jolanta Jones. [302834] Mr. Byrne: The Government will assess spending Mr. Timms: The letters were transferred upon receipt trends per head in the next spending review as announced to the Department for Work and Pensions as the subject to Parliament by the Secretary of State for Wales on was the responsibility of that Department. 26 November. 603W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 604W

Revenue and Customs Mr. Timms: I refer the right hon. and learned Member to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) on 19 October 2009, Official Report, column Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the 1288W. Exchequer what (a) formal and (b) informal consultations HM Revenue and Customs has run in (i) Mr. Howard: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer 2006, (ii) 2007, (iii) 2008 and (iv) 2009; and which HM what discussions he has had with the Secretary of State Revenue and Customs official has had oversight of for Culture, Media and Sport on the effect on the each such consultation. [303065] tourism industry of the abolition of (a) the furnished holiday lettings rules and (b) tax relief on furnished Mr. Timms: Details of HM Revenue and Customs’ holiday lettings. [302810] formal and informal consultations can be found at: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/consultations/index.htm Mr. Timms: Treasury Ministers and officials hold Each consultation document includes contact details discussions with a wide variety of organisations in the as well as a named Departmental Consultation Coordinator public and private sectors as part of the process of in line with the Government’s Code of Practice on policy development and delivery. As was the case with consultation. previous Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to provide details of all such discussions. Revenue and Customs: Labour Turnover An impact assessment will be published alongside the 2009 pre-Budget report together with draft legislation.

Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Howard: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what the median length of service of HM Revenue and what assessment he has made of the financial effect of Customs full-time employees is in each region and the repeal of furnished holiday letting rules on persons country of the UK. [302462] operating holiday lets. [302983]

Mr. Timms: The median length of service of HM Mr. Timms: I refer the right hon. and learned Gentleman Revenue and Customs full-time employees in each region to the answer I gave the hon. Member for Preseli and country of the UK is shown in the following table. Pembrokeshire (Mr. Crabb) on 26 October 2009, Official Report, column 75W. Region/country Median length of service in years Taxation: Pensions East 21 East Midlands 18 London 20 Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer North East 10 (1) what percentage of the £9 billion disregard for North West 14 employer national insurance contributions to registered South East 20 pension schemes in Table A3.1 of the 2009 Budget Red Book is attributable to higher rate taxpayers; [302507] South West 20 West Midlands 20 (2) what percentage of the £20.3 billion approved Yorkshire and Humberside 19 pension scheme tax relief for 2008-09 in Table A3.1 of the 2009 Budget in attributable to higher rate tax relief. [302508] England 18 Northern Ireland 14 Mr. Timms: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Scotland 9 given to the hon. Member for Twickenham (Dr. Cable) Wales 20 on 7 May 2009, Official Report, column 421W. It is not possible to provide such a breakdown for United Kingdom 18 other components of the overall cost of registered pension scheme tax relief, nor is it possible to provide it Taxation: Holiday Accommodation for the disregard for employer national insurance contributions to registered pension schemes.

Mr. Howard: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Tobacco what representations he has made to the European Commission on the legal status of the furnished Mike Penning: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer holiday letting rules. [302808] what account he takes of the limits on the maximum quantities of (a) cigarettes and (b) hand-rolling tobacco Mr. Timms: I refer the right hon. and learned Member which may be brought into other EU member states by to the answer I gave to the hon. Member for an individual for personal consumption from within the Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) on 20 October 2009, EU in setting the limit on the maximum quantity which Official Report, column 1413W. may be brought into the UK for personal consumption from other EU member states. [302695] Mr. Howard: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what legal advice his Department took in advance of Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Under EU law, there are no the decision to abolish tax relief on furnished holiday limits on the quantities of cigarettes and hand rolling lettings. [302809] tobacco private individuals can buy and take with them 605W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 606W when they travel between EU countries, as long as the EGFIN, what political guidelines will be used to products purchased are for personal use and not for determine whether the UK will be required to impose resale. value added tax on postal services. [303288] To determine whether these products are for the own use of the traveller, Member States must take account Mr. Timms: The VAT treatment of postal services of all relevant factors including the quantity of the was not discussed at the ECOFIN meeting held on 10 products. As such, Member States may lay down guide November, although it is on the agenda of the ECOFIN levels, solely as a form of evidence, which cannot be meeting to be held on 2 December. lower than the following quantities: 800 cigarettes, 1 kg The UK believes that supplies made by the public smoking tobacco. These levels are not limits, but simply postal services should continue to be exempt from VAT. an indicator that the goods may be intended for a commercial purpose. Working Tax Credit The UK has chosen a guide level of 3,200 cigarettes and 3 kg of hand-rolling tobacco. These levels represent Mr. Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if around six months’ usage for the average smoker. he will estimate the cost of enabling claimants of the childcare element of the working tax credit to continue VAT to receive it for 12 weeks after they are made redundant; and if he will make a statement. [303059] Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his Department has made an Mr. Timms: In light of the complex analysis required, assessment of the likely effect on the economy of an estimate would be available only at disproportionate applying a reduced rate of value added tax to visitor cost. attractions, accommodation and restaurants. [303122] Mr. Laws: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Timms: No such assessment has been made. VAT how many unemployed people were claiming the is a broad-based tax on consumer expenditure and childcare element of the working tax credit in each of reliefs from it have always been strictly limited. Where the last 12 months; and if he will make a statement. reduced rates are available, these are applied only where [303060] they provide the most well-targeted and cost-effective support for the Government’s policy objectives, compared Mr. Timms: The information requested is not available. to other measures. Working Tax Credit, including the child care element, is generally conditional upon a lone parent, or each member Stephen Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the of a couple, working at least 16 hours a week. However, Exchequer if he will make an assessment of the merits payment may continue for a period of four weeks where of amending the rate at which Value Added Tax is the hours a person works fall below 16 hours a week, or charged on equipment for (a) domestic renewable energy if they stop work. production and (b) increasing levels of energy efficiency as a mechanism for encouraging the use of such equipment. [303403] INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Mr. Timms: VAT is a broad-based tax on consumer Afghanistan expenditure and reliefs from it have always been strictly limited; the Government continue to keep all Mr. Hollobone: To ask the Secretary of State for taxes under review. International Development what recent assessment he A value added tax rate of 5 per cent. applies to the has made of the effectiveness of his Department’s domestic installation of certain renewable energy production programmes in Afghanistan; and if he will make a technologies such as solar panels, wind turbines, air and statement. [303352] ground source heat pumps and wood fuelled boilers. However, when such technologies are bought for ’do-it- Mr. Douglas Alexander: DFID’s latest Afghanistan yourself installation purposes, the standard VAT rate Country Programme Evaluation was published in May (currently of 15 per cent.) instead applies. 2009 and is available on the DFID website: http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Where-we-work/Asia-South/ European VAT agreements do not currently allow a Afghanistan/ reduced VAT rate for the ‘do-it-yourself’ installation of renewable energy production technologies or indeed for Departmental Internet any products or materials designed to help increase levels of energy efficiency. Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for International The Government continue to make the case for changes Development what the cost was of maintaining his to these European agreements to allow for a wider Department’s website in the 2008-09 financial year; and application of reduced VAT rates to energy-efficient what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites within products and energy-saving materials. his responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. [302409]

VAT: Postal Services Mr. Michael Foster: For the cost of maintaining the Department for International Development’s (DFID’s) Jim Cousins: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer website in 2008-09 I refer the right hon. Gentlemen with reference to the written ministerial statement of 9 to the answer of 14 January 2009, Official Report, November 2009, Official Report, column 1WS, on column 832W. 607W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 608W

The DFID website is maintained in house from existing Armed Forces: Cadets resources. The Department is also responsible for the Developments magazine website and the Research4Development websites. Projected costs for these Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for two websites are £566,512. Defence how much funding his Department has provided to the (a) Air and (b) Sea Cadets in each year since 1997; and how much such funding has been allocated Departmental Public Relations for each of the next two years. [300276]

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for International Mr. Kevan Jones: In broad terms, the MOD spends Development what payments his Department has made approximately one in every 250 defence pounds on to (a) Brunswick Group, (b) Weber Shandwick, (c) Cadets. The Air Cadet Organisation (ACO) has received LLM Communications, (d) Financial Dynamics, (e) the following funding from the Department: Cubitt Consulting and (f) Bell Pottinger Public Affairs in the last 12 months; for what purpose; and if he will Period Amount received (£ million) place in the Library a copy of each contract under which such payments have been made. [302210] 1997-08 18 1998-09 19 Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International 1999-2000 18 Development (DFID) has not made any payments to 2000-01 19 the listed organisations in the last 12 months. 2001-02 20 2002-03 22 United Nations: Females 2003-04 25 2004-05 27 Jo Swinson: To ask the Secretary of State for International 2005-06 28 Development pursuant to the Answer of 23 November 2006-07 31 2009, Official Report, column 27W,on the United Nations: 2007-08 26 females, if his Department will prepare a list of UK 2008-09 23 women nationals to be considered for nomination to 2009-10 23 senior positions on (a) the Committee on the Elimination of Violence Against Women and (b) the United Nations The figure for 2006-07 includes a funding allocation Agency for Women. [303347] of £1.6 million for infrastructure modernisation and an Adult Volunteer Recruitment Campaign. Mr. Michael Foster: The UK Government are committed to promoting a good quality field of candidates for the With effect from FY 2008-09 the funding of works heads and senior leadership of all institutional institutions. services (comprising maintenance, refurbishment and In all cases we will promote open, transparent and replacement of the ACO estate of over 1,000 buildings) merit-based processes. In some cases we may wish to was transferred to Defence Estates and no longer falls promote a UK candidate where they are best qualified within the ACO budget. Service manpower pay (estimated for the post. We have no plans to promote a UK at approximately £3 million currently) was, from FY candidate for either of these two appointments. 2007-08, transferred to the Single Point Accounting system covering all RAF personnel and thus no longer forms part of the ACO budget. These funding allocations have been changed to reflect a more efficient way of paying for essential elements. The overall level of funding DEFENCE provided for cadet activities has not fallen and reflects our continued commitment to the Air Cadet Organisation. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations The Marine Society and Sea Cadets are a registered charity and are supported by the MOD through a Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Grant in Aid. Figures prior to 2006 are not held in the how many coalition helicopters which can be called on format requested and could only be provided through a by UK forces are available in Helmand province; and if manual search of earlier records at disproportionate he will make a statement. [302093] cost.

Bill Rammell: It is not possible to provide details of Period Amount received (£ million) the numbers of helicopters available to UK forces in Helmand Province for operational security reasons; the 2006-07 8.3 release of this information would, or would be likely to, 2007-08 8.4 prejudice the capability, effectiveness, or security of our 2008-09 8.7 armed forces. 2009-10 9.0 I can confirm that, in addition to our own helicopters, we draw on helicopter assets provided by our allies, In respect of future allocations, the available resources including the Dutch, Canadians, Australians and for Defence expenditure are set during spending rounds. Americans. Helicopter support to international security The most recent comprehensive spending review set the assistance force operations in southern Afghanistan is Department’s budget for the financial years 2008-11. provided from a multi-national pool of helicopters allocated Departmental expenditure plans for 2010-11 and beyond by regional command (south). have not yet been agreed. 609W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 610W

Armoured Fighting Vehicles of our Chinook fleet. This includes fitting the entire fleet with more powerful engines and modern avionic Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for and cockpit displays, enhancing its ability to operate in Defence how many Mastiff 2 armoured vehicles are (a) the toughest of operational conditions. The delivery of deployed in Afghanistan, (b) owned by his Department eight reverted Chinook Mk3s in 2010 will also provide and (c) on order. [302816] the Chinook fleet with increased resilience and the capacity to increase our heavy lift capability on operations. Mr. Kevan Jones: I am withholding details on the Colombia: Military Aid number of Mastiff 2 protected vehicles deployed in Afghanistan as disclosure would, or would be likely to Anne Moffat: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence prejudice the capability, effectiveness or security of the with reference to the Answer to the hon. Member for armed forces. As at 23 November 2009, the Department Richmond Park of 24 November 1999, Official Report, owned 163 Mastiff 2s, with a further 35 on order. column 115W, on Colombia, when the UK ceased to provide the Colombian security forces with advisory Chelsea Barracks visits and information exchanges on counter-guerilla strategy. [300413] Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence to what specific purposes revenue raised from the sale of Bill Rammell [holding answer 23 November 2009]: Chelsea barracks in 2007-08 has been allocated. [303195] The answer cited in the hon. Member’s question refers to an element of a UK Army visit, which took place in Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the 1997. The UK has not subsequently provided any specific answer my predecessor gave on 15 September 2008, counter-guerrilla or counter-insurgency assistance to Official Report, column 2074W.There is no specific link the Colombian security forces. between disposal receipts and individual elements of defence expenditure. Exceptionally, however, the disposal Defence Support Group of Chelsea barracks for a total of £959 million, was included in the plans of the Department and underpinned Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for investment in service accommodation of £250 million Defence whether he plans to sell the Defence Support in 2007-08. Group; and if he will make a statement. [303002] It was agreed as part of the 2007 comprehensive spending review that a further £550 million should be Mr. Kevan Jones: We have no current plans to sell the invested over the following three years with plans for Defence Support Group. the balance of the proceeds of £159 million, to be Defence: International Cooperation agreed with HM Treasury as part of the next spending review. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for The disposal of Chelsea barracks has, therefore, secured Defence what recent discussions he has had with other the major investment in service accommodation through members of the European Defence Agency on joining Project SLAM (single living accommodation the joint airlift capability. [303006] modernisation), the service housing upgrade programme and many other significant accommodation projects in Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The European Defence Agency’s the UK and overseas to improve the living conditions work on military strategic airlift is known as the European for our service personnel. Air Transport Fleet (EATF) programme. We hold discussions with allies regularly on defence matters, Chinook Helicopters including on the EATF. The UK’s position, confirmed at formal European Defence Agency meetings, is that Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for we have no current plans to participate in the EATF Defence what plans he has to upgrade former USAF programme. We will continue to monitor the programme CH-47D Chinook helicopters to the UK configuration. and keep our position under review. [303007] Departmental Internet Bill Rammell: The UK does not own any former USAF CH-47D Chinook helicopters and therefore has Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence no plans to upgrade any of them to the current UK how many (a) page hits and (b) visitors his configuration. Department’s website received in 2008-09. [301847]

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kevan Jones: The Ministry of Defence and armed Defence whether he plans to purchase new Chinook forces collectively maintain four corporate websites. helicopters; and if he will make a statement. [303008] The number of page views and visitors during 2008-09 is detailed as follows. This analysis complies with the Mr. Kevan Jones: We have made clear in recent months guidance issued by the Central Office of Information that we are re-examining our future helicopter plans. (COI) on the methodology for identifying website usage We anticipate concluding this work shortly and will in response to the Public Account Committee (PAC) make any announcements thereafter. In the meantime, Sixteenth Report. This guidance can be found at the options for replacement for the two Chinook recently following link; lost on operations are currently being pursued, and we http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200708/ are continuing to take measures to improve the capability cmselect/cmpubacc/143/14302.htm 611W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 612W

(c) Royal Hospital Chelsea covers higher utilities, Unique visitors/ Website URL Page impressions browsers superannuation costs and maintenance of the infirmary and care of pensioners in the Margaret Thatcher MOD corporate www.mod.uk 27,201,182 3,732,511 infirmary. website1 Royal Navy www.royalnavy.mod.uk 52,415,075 5,693,784 These costs are additional to the grants given in main British Army www.army.mod.uk 68,670516 8,702,424 estimates which covered pay and the general running Royal Air Force www.raf.mod.uk 87,536,440 16,109,392 costs of the organisations such as utilities, maintenance, 1 Page impression figure includes robot/spider activity. works plus minor capital items. A number of other websites are run by different parts Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence of the Ministry of Defence, but these are not managed what the cost to his Department was of provision of centrally, and the information requested could be provided office facilities to (a) special advisers and (b) press only at disproportionate cost. officers in the 2008-09 financial year. [302975]

Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The MOD’s Press Office and Special Advisers are provided with office facilities within Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the main building, the costs of which cannot be separately what expenditure his Department incurred on the identified. No specific or additional provision was made employment of special advisers to Ministers in the last for these facilities in Financial Year 2008-09. 12 months. [301949] Departmental Scientists

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The Government are committed Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for to publishing an annual list detailing the number and Defence how many (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil costs of special advisers. Information for 2008-09 was servants in scientific posts there are in his Department. published by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister [301927] on 16 July 2009, Official Report, column 74WS. Mr. Kevan Jones: The MOD has 56 scientific adviser Departmental Public Expenditure posts providing direct advice to military commanders on a number of operations. Seven civil service scientists Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence are currently deployed to Afghanistan. Scientific advisers for what reasons the capital receipts in respect of Northern are part of a community of an estimated 3,000 scientific Ireland referred to in his Winter Supplementary Estimate posts within the civil service in the MOD and its Defence for 2009-10 were lower than in his Department’s estimates Science and Technology Laboratory (Dstl) trading fund. for 2008-09. [302863] Hercules Aircraft: Training

Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 30 November Mr. Gray: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence 2009]: The difference between the main estimates and when he expects the contract for the construction of those at winter supplementary estimates is because the the building to house the C (130) J simulator at RAF Government have decided to gift, subject to parliamentary Brize Norton to be signed. [302759] approval, a number of sites in Northern Ireland, which are no longer required for defence purposes, to the Mr. Kevan Jones: It is anticipated that the contract Northern Ireland Executive. The MOD has agreed for the C130J Training and Mission Rehearsal Facility £15 million capital relief from HM Treasury in respect at RAF Brize Norton, which will eventually house the of the consequent reduction in receipts. C130J Flight Simulators and other training facilities currently at RAF Lyneham, will be awarded early next Dr. Murrison: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence year. under what budget headings funding from the non-budget non-voted grants-in-aid to the (a) Council of Reserve Immobilisation of Vehicles Forces and Cadets Association, (b) National Army Museum and (c) Royal Hospital Chelsea referred to in Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for his Department’s Winter Supplementary Estimate for Defence how much his Department has paid in vehicle 2009-10 will be spent. [302864] clamping charges incurred on (a) privately-owned and (b) publicly-owned land in each of the last 10 years; Mr. Bob Ainsworth [holding answer 30 November and if he will make a statement. [302756] 2009]: The additional sums sought in the Winter Supplementary Estimate cover the following: Mr. Kevan Jones: MOD policy is that the driver is responsible for paying fines, including clamping, speeding (a) Reserve Forces and Cadets Association relates to and parking. the maintenance budget for the Volunteer Estate which was finalised too late for inclusion in the Main The Department has not, therefore, paid any such Estimates. The balance was for additional in-year charges. staff and IT costs for the Association, vehicle provision Iraq: Interpreters for the Army Cadet Force and utility and other support costs for the Volunteer estate. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for (b) National Army Museum Costs were for replacement Defence what protection is provided for translators boilers, removal of asbestos and staff costs. previously engaged by UK forces in Iraq. [300333] 613W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 614W

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: We take our responsibilities to understanding with the UAE armed forces which cover the Iraqi interpreters who worked with UK forces in arrangements for UK forces to utilise air bases in the Iraq extremely seriously. UAE, including for some sustainment flights to As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister announced Afghanistan. We do not have any separate agreements in his statement of 8 October 2007, Official Report, or arrangements with the Emirate of Abu Dhabi. column 23, we introduced a policy that allowed eligible Puma Helicopters former Iraqi interpreters to settle in the UK through the Gateway protection programme. Currently some 589 Iraqi interpreters and their families, including those Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for used by the other employing departments based in Iraq, Defence when the first upgraded HC.2 Puma helicopters have chosen to settle in the UK under this programme. will enter service; and by what date the entire fleet will be upgraded. [303003] Merlin Helicopters: Training Mr. Kevan Jones: The first Puma Mk2 aircraft will Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for enter squadron service in 2012. The upgrade of the Defence how many service personnel have taken part in entire fleet is planned to complete in 2014. Exercise Merlin Vortex. [302821] Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill Rammell: Exercise Merlin Vortex was a pre- Defence what the cost to his Department is of the deployment training exercise to prepare the Merlin upgrade programme to Puma helicopters; and what the force for deployment to Afghanistan. 422 service personnel cost per upgraded helicopter is. [303004] took part in the exercise, comprising 177 aircrew and 245 ground support staff. In addition, the exercise was Mr. Kevan Jones: The Puma HC Mk2 Demonstration supported by two civilian doctors. and Manufacture phase is expected to cost some £300 million. This includes the one-off costs associated with The deployment of the Merlin force to Afghanistan developing the required modifications and undertaking began in November and will be complete by the end the trials activity necessary to certify the aircraft; the of 2009. provision of initial support and conversion training for Military Aircraft aircrew and maintainers; and the cost of modifying each helicopter. Each aircraft will cost in the order of Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for £10 million to upgrade taking into account the above Defence how many (a) army, (b) Royal Air Force and one-off costs. (c) Royal Navy fixed-wing aircraft are based in the Royal Fleet Auxiliary UK. [302852] Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Kevan Jones: The following table gives the total what the terms of reference are of the current review of number of Royal Navy, Army and Royal Air Force the Royal Fleet Auxiliary; and if he will make a statement. manned fixed-wing aircraft that are based in the UK as at 31 October 2009. The total Harrier GR9 and Hawk [302317] fleets, which are operated by both Royal Navy and Mr. Kevan Jones: This is a new Value for Money Royal Air Force units, are included in the Royal Air Study, the terms of reference for which have not yet Force column. Unmanned Aerial Vehicles and contractor been agreed. owned fleets are not included. Wildcat Helicopters Total number of UK based Service manned aircraft Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Royal Navy 9 Defence what progress has been made on the delivery of Army 16 the new Wildcat helicopters ordered by his Department; Royal Air Force 820 and if he will make a statement. [302795]

A proportion of the Army and Royal Air Force Bill Rammell: The Lynx Wildcat project remains on manned United Kingdom based fixed-wing fleet are track to meet its time, cost and performance targets. currently deployed outside the UK on expeditionary There has been no escalation in price and the planned operations. in-service date remains at January 2014. The first flight Military Alliances of the trials aircraft took place successfully on 12 November 2009. Mr. Soames: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) detail and (b) scope is of the defence agreements between the UK and (i) Abu Dhabi and (ii) PRIME MINISTER the United Arab Emirates. [302865] Christmas Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 30 November 2009]: The UK has a Defence Cooperation Accord (DCA) Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Prime Minister how with UAE signed in 1996 by the then Secretary of State, many Christmas parties his Office plans to host in 2009; which sets out our arrangements for security co-operation. what has been budgeted for each such reception; what Earlier this year we also agreed a memorandum of estimate he has made of the proportion of (a) lamb, 615W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 616W

(b) beef, (c) chicken, (d) pork, (e) turkey, (f) other The Prime Minister: Information on all visits overseas meats, (g) vegetables, (h) fruit and (i) alcohol to be undertaken by Cabinet Ministers costing in excess of served at each such function which is produced in the £500 is published on an annual basis. Information for UK; and if he will make a statement. [300862] 2009-10 will be published in the normal way.

The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the Uganda: Commonwealth Heads of Government answer given by the then Parliamentary Secretary at the Conference Cabinet Office (Kevin Brennan) on 13 January 2009, Official Report, column 582W. Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Prime Minister (1) Information on official and charity receptions held at which Ministers accompanied him to the 2007 10 Downing Street is published by means of an annual Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Uganda; list as soon as it is ready at the end of the financial year. [301101] (2) how many civil servants accompanied him to the Commonwealth 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Uganda. [301102] Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Prime Minister (1) what his policy is on the role of the UK in the The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the Commonwealth; [301098] annual list of overseas visits by Cabinet Ministers, costing in excess of £500, for 2007-08, published by the (2) what bilateral meetings he plans to hold during Government. Copies of the lists are available in the the 2009 Commonwealth Heads of Government Libraries of the House. Meeting in Trinidad and Tobago; [301099] (3) what objectives he has set for the outcome of the 2009 Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting in Trinidad and Tobago. [301104] WORK AND PENSIONS The Prime Minister: I refer the hon. Member to the written ministerial statement I made on 30 November Children: Maintenance 2009, Official Report, column 113WS. David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Meetings Work and Pensions what steps her Department is taking to reduce the time taken for the Child Support Agency to pass on to resident parents payments which Norman Baker: To ask the Prime Minister which (a) are not administered by means of electronic transfer. individuals other than Ministerial colleagues and officials [300250] of his Office and (b) organisations he met in an official capacity in the week commencing 9 November 2009. Helen Goodman: The Child Maintenance and [301170] Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance The Prime Minister: I had meetings with a wide range Commissioner to write to the hon. Member with the of organisations and individuals. information requested and I have seen the response. Letter from Stephen Geraghty: Departmental Rail Travel In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive Norman Baker: To ask the Prime Minister on what reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance date he last travelled by train in the course of his and Enforcement Commission. official duties. [301191] You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps her Department is taking to reduce the time taken for the The Prime Minister: I travel making the most efficient Child Support Agency to pass on to resident parents payments and cost-effective arrangements, including regular use which are not administered by means of electronic transfer. of trains. My travel arrangements are in accordance [300250] with the arrangements for official travel set out in When the CSA receive the child maintenance payment from chapter 10 of the ″Ministerial Code″, and the accompanying the non-resident parent by an electronic transfer it takes up to one guidance document, ″Travel by Ministers″. day to process the payment and pass it on to the parent with care. Where a cheque is received it can take up to three days to clear. Parents with care are encouraged to receive maintenance payments Trinidad and Tobago: Commonwealth Heads of from the CSA by electronic transfer into their bank accounts, Government Conference rather than by cheque which can take two days to produce and then be posted to the parent with care before the funds can be Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Prime Minister (1) drawn. how many civil servants he expects to accompany him The CSA’s preferred method of payment for non-resident to the 2009 Commonwealth Heads of Government parents using the collection service is direct debit or a deduction from earnings order, since both are significantly more reliable and Meeting in Trinidad and Tobago; [301100] resilient than other methods. The benefits of using direct debit or (2) which Ministers he expects to accompany him to a deduction from earnings are promoted when agreeing a method the 2009 Commonwealth Heads of Government of payment with non-resident parents. Meeting in Trinidad and Tobago. [301103] I hope you find this answer helpful. 617W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 618W

Departmental Visits Abroad work-related activity while claiming income support. Work-related activity will be piloted initially in four Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for areas, and we will bring forward the relevant regulations Work and Pensions what overseas visits she has in the new year. undertaken since taking up her post. [301781] With respect to the mobility component of disability living allowance, the effect on a parent’s availability to Jim Knight: I can confirm that the Secretary of State undertake work-related activity is less. The higher rate for Work and Pensions has not undertaken any overseas does not attach itself to a requirement for help from visits since taking up her post. another person, and although the lower rate component requires guidance or supervision from another person Disability Living Allowance when out of doors, unlike with care component there is no minimum threshold for the time or effort required to Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work guide or supervise a child. We are therefore not providing and Pensions whether she has plans to direct parents in for a blanket exemption from work-related activity or, receipt of out-of-work benefits with children who (a) in due course, availability for work. However, a decision- are in receipt of an award of disability living allowance maker must, under the Welfare Reform Act 2009, take mobility component and (b) have an award of into account health and disability issues when considering disability living allowance under appeal to undertake whether there is good cause for failure to comply with a work-related activity. [302789] direction to undertake work-related activity or, in due course, for turning down a job; and the issue should Helen Goodman [holding answer 30 November 2009]: have been taken into account before this, in agreeing an We announced during passage of the Welfare Reform action plan or, in due course, a jobseeker’s agreement Act 2009 that parents with a child in receipt of any rate that takes into account the wellbeing of the child. of care component of disability living allowance will be exempt from the requirement to undertake work-related Employment and Support Allowance: Dartford activity while claiming income support. Those with children in receipt of the mobility component Dr. Stoate: To ask the Secretary of State for Work of disability living allowance, but no care component, and Pensions how many people in Dartford who have will be required to undertake work related activity. submitted claims for employment and support Some parents will be exempt from work related activity, allowance since its introduction have appealed against including those with a child in receipt of any level care the outcome of the work capability assessment (a) component of disability living allowance. If an award successfully and (b) unsuccessfully. [301770] of disability living allowance is removed we will require the parent to undertake work related activity. Jonathan Shaw: Data on appeals against the work capability assessment decision is held at regional level Disability Living Allowance: Lone Parents and figures for the south-east region are provided. For people in the south-east who started an employment Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and support allowance claim since its introduction in and Pensions (1) for what reasons she has decided to October 2008 up to February 2009, who were found fit exempt lone parents from benefit conditionality when for work at the work capability assessment and have their child is receiving the care component of disability submitted and completed an appeal the figures are: living allowance; when she intends to bring forward Successful appeals: 100 regulations setting out the exemptions; and if she will Unsuccessful appeals: 120 make a statement; [301720] These figures are rounded to the nearest 10 and are (2) for what reasons she has decided not to exempt consistent with the national figures published in October from benefit conditionality lone parents of children 2009. receiving the mobility component of disability living Due to the time it takes for appeals to be submitted to allowance; when she intends to bring forward Tribunals Service and heard, a very limited volume of regulations setting out the exemptions; and if she will appeals heard data is held currently. Volumes will increase make a statement. [301721] in the coming months as more appeals are processed giving a more robust picture of appeal volumes and Helen Goodman: Under existing regulations, lone outcomes. parents who would otherwise be required to claim jobseeker’s allowance, but who have a child in receipt of Dr. Stoate: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the highest or middle rate care component of disability and Pensions how many people in Dartford who have living allowance, are not required to be available for submitted claims for employment and support allowance work in return for benefit. The entitlement conditions since its introduction have (a) not met the work capability to the care component of disability living allowance lay assessment qualification criteria, (b) met the work capability out clear expectations of, at a minimum, a requirement assessment criteria for the work-related activity group for attention for a significant portion of the day, some and (c) met the work capability assessment qualification or all of which could be expected to be carried out by a criteria for the support group. [301772] parent. We announced during passage of the Welfare Reform Jonathan Shaw: Data on outcomes from the medical Act 2009 that lone parents with a child in receipt of any assessment process for Employment and Support Allowance rate of care component of disability living allowance claims are held at regional level and figures for the would be exempted from the requirement to undertake South East region are provided. For people in the South 619W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 620W

East who started an employment and support allowance Table 1: Proportion of various groups below 60 per cent. of claim since its introduction in October 2008 up to contemporary median income in 2007-08 for rural areas and England, February 2009 and who completed the assessment process before housing costs the figures are: Percentage Rural England Number of people found fit for work: 5,400 Number of people in the work related activity group: 2,700 Children 16 22 Number of people in the support group: 1,100 Pensioners 21 23 All individuals 15 18 These figures are rounded to the nearest 100 and are consistent with the national figures published in October Table 2: Proportion of various groups below 60 per cent. of 2009. contemporary median income in 2007-08 for rural areas and England, after housing costs These data should be considered as provisional since Percentage they are based on recorded advice from ATOS Healthcare, Rural England rather than the decision maker’s final determination. The final outcomes of cases may change. This will be Children 25 32 further compounded by reconsiderations following Pensioners 17 18 additional medical evidence and the outcomes of appeals. All individuals 19 23 Full guidance on the national figures is included in the Notes: published statistics. 1. These statistics are based on Households Below Average Income, sourced from the Family Resources Survey. 2. Small changes should be treated with caution as these will be Members: Correspondence affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. 3. The reference period for Households Below Average Income figures are single financial years. Mr. Winnick: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ and Pensions with reference to the reply from the the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State of 30 September publication ‘Households Below Average Income’ (HBAI) series, which 2009, when the Child Maintenance and Enforcement uses disposable household income, adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, as an income measure as a proxy for Commission will reply to the hon. Member for Walsall standard of living. North regarding a constituent. [300617] 5. For the Households Below Average Income series, incomes have been equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Helen Goodman [holding answer 23 November 2009]: Development (OECD) equivalisation factors. 6. Numbers of children, pensioners and individuals in low income The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission have been rounded to the nearest 100,000. is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner to write to Poverty: Children my hon. Friend with the information requested and I have seen the response. Mr. Clappison: To ask the Secretary of State for Letter from Stephen Geraghty: Work and Pensions how many and what proportion of children have been in poverty in accordance with the In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Government’s definition of child poverty in each (a) Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child year since 1999 and (b) of the last eight quarters. Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance [301789] and Enforcement Commission. Helen Goodman: Poverty statistics, published in the You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with households below average income series, are only produced reference to the reply from the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State of 30 September 2009 when the Child Maintenance and on an annual basis therefore quarterly information is Enforcement Commission will reply to the hon. Member for not available. Walsall North regarding a constituent. [300617] The Government’s measures of child poverty are: As details about individual cases are confidential I have written The number of children in relative low income households to you separately about this case. defined as living in households with incomes below 60 per cent of contemporary median income, before housing costs (shown in table 1). Poverty The number of children in absolute low-income households defined as living in households with incomes below 60 per cent. of Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work median income held constant in real terms, before housing costs and Pensions what estimate she has made of the (shown in table 2). proportion of (a) children, (b) people and (c) elderly The number of children in relative low-income households and in material deprivation defined as families with a material deprivation people in (i) rural areas and (ii) England who live in score of 25 or more and a household income below 70 per cent. poverty. [301860] contemporary median income, before housing costs (shown in table 3). Note that this information is only available from 2004-05. Helen Goodman: Estimates of the numbers of people, Table 1: Number and percentage of children in the United Kingdom elderly people and children in rural areas living in living in households with incomes below 60 per cent. of contemporary poverty are derived from the Family Resources Survey median income, 1999-2000 to 2007-08, before housing costs produced by the Department for Work and Pensions. Before housing costs The Survey is available on the Department’s website Period Number (million) Percentage and a copy is also in the Library: 1999-2000 3.4 26 http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/frs/2007_08/ 2000-01 3.1 23 frs_2007_08_report.pdf 621W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 622W

Table 1: Number and percentage of children in the United Kingdom In 2007-08 for England, 25 per cent. of farm households living in households with incomes below 60 per cent. of contemporary were below the modified low income threshold (gross median income, 1999-2000 to 2007-08, before housing costs income before housing costs). Before housing costs Period Number (million) Percentage Social Security Benefits: Elderly 2001-02 3.0 23 2002-03 2.9 23 Mr. Harper: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2003-04 2.9 22 and Pensions how much was spent on the (a) care and 2004-05 2.7 21 (b) mobility component of (i) attendance and (ii) 2005-06 2.8 22 disability living allowance for people over 65 in 2006-07 2.9 22 England in (A) 2007-08 and (B) 2008-09. [300398] 2007-08 2.9 23

Table 2: Number and percentage of children in the United Kingdom Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 23 November 2009]: living in households with incomes below 60 per cent. of 1998-99 The information requested is shown in the following median income held constant in real terms, 1999-2000 to 2007-08, table: before housing costs Expenditure on the care/mobility component of attendance allowance Before housing costs and disability living allowance for claimants aged 65 and over in Period Number (million) Percentage England £ million 1999-2000 3.1 23 In cash terms In 2009-10 prices 2000-01 2.5 19 2007-08 2008-09 2007-08 2008-09 2001-02 2.0 15 2002-03 1.8 14 Disability living allowance: 885 983 916 993 2003-04 1.8 14 care component 2004-05 1.7 13 Disability living allowance: 1,179 1,270 1,220 1,283 2005-06 1.6 13 mobility component 2006-07 1.7 13 Attendance allowance: care 3,675 3,924 3,804 3,963 component 2007/08 1.7 13 Notes: Table 3: Percentage and number of children in the United Kingdom 1. Claimants on disability living allowance may receive both a care falling below thresholds of low income and material deprivation, and mobility component. 2004-05 to 2007-08 2. Attendance allowance does not have a mobility component. Before housing costs Source: DWP Statistical and Accounting Data Period Number (million) Percentage

2004-05 2.2 17 Winter Fuel Payments 2005-06 2.1 16 2006-07 2.0 16 Steve Webb: To ask the Secretary of State for Work 2007-08 2.2 17 and Pensions how many eligible (a) men and (b) Notes: women have not received backdated winter fuel payments 1. These statistics are based on households below average income in respect of previous years. [302639] (HBAI), sourced from the Family Resources Survey. The Family Resources Survey is available in the Library. 2. Small changes should be treated with caution as these will be Angela Eagle [holding answer 30 November 2009]: affected by sampling error and variability in non-response. The information requested is not available. 3. The reference period for HBAI figures are single financial years. 4. The income measures used to derive the estimates shown employ the same methodology as the Department for Work and Pensions’ publication HBAI series, which uses disposable household income, adjusted (or ‘equivalised’) for household size and composition, as an FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE income measure as a proxy for standard of living. 5. For the HBAI series, incomes have been equivalised using Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development equivalisation factors. Nuclear Non-Proliferation Policy 6. Numbers of children in low income have been rounded to the nearest hundred thousand. 7. Proportions of children in low income have been rounded to the EU Energy Security nearest percentage point. 8. A family is in low income and material deprivation if they have a material deprivation score of 25 or more and a household income 15. Mr. Bailey: To ask the Secretary of State for below 70 per cent. contemporary median income, before housing Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions costs. Figures before 2004-05 are not available. he has had in the General Affairs Council on policy to improve EU energy security; and if he will make a statement. [302608] Poverty: Farmers Chris Bryant: The September General Affairs and Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Work External Relations Council reconfirmed security of energy and Pensions what estimate her Department has made supply as a priority and reviewed progress. The October of the number of farmers in England who live in European Council endorsed initiatives to diversify supplies, poverty. [301861] increase energy efficiency and improve functioning of EU energy markets. A new EU Energy Action Plan is Jim Fitzpatrick: I have been asked to reply. planned for 2010. 623W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 624W

Gaza the conditions for a world without nuclear weapons and for strengthening the non-proliferation framework. The 16. Mrs. McGuire: To ask the Secretary of State for Government will continue to work hard to re-energise Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps his international consensus to ensure a successful review Department is taking to facilitate the opening of conference next May. border crossings into Gaza. [302609] Zimbabwe Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK continues to call on the Sir Nicholas Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State Government of Israel to open the crossings into Gaza for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent more fully. The Prime Minister raised this directly with assessment he has made of the political situation in the Israeli Prime Minister on 15 October 2009; I did the Zimbabwe. [302612] same on 27 October 2009 with the Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister. Securing better access to Gaza will remain a Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Inclusive Government continue priority for the Government. to make encouraging progress on economic reform. But we are disappointed by the slow pace of political reform, Mrs. Cryer: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign spasmodic violence and the continuation of human and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he rights abuses. The recent Southern African Development has had with his US counterpart on nuclear non- Community summit in Mozambique confirmed regional proliferation policy. [302597] commitment to pushing for further implementation of the Global Political Agreement. That is encouraging: Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign but the proof will be in the delivery. We urge the Secretary most recently discussed nuclear non-proliferation Zimbabwean political parties to comply. with US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton in London on 11 October 2009. Mrs. Clinton said after that meeting Pakistan: Terrorism that British leadership had been pivotal in the run up to the historic Security Council session chaired by President 19. Mr. Streeter: To ask the Secretary of State for Barack Obama on 24 September 2009, which unanimously Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent adopted UN Security Council Resolution 1887 and discussions he has had with his Pakistani counterpart committed us to work toward a world without nuclear on combating terrorism. [302613] weapons. Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign 17. Andrew Miller: To ask the Secretary of State for Secretary has had a number of recent conversations Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent with key Government of Pakistan counterparts on discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on countering terrorism, notably with President Zardari in nuclear non-proliferation policy. [302611] Kabul on 19 November 2009, and in a telephone conversation with Foreign Minister Qureshi on Mr. Ivan Lewis: I regularly discuss nuclear non- 23 November 2009. We continue to discuss areas of proliferation with EU colleagues most recently with mutual counter terrorism cooperation. Guido Westerwelle, the new German Foreign Minister, last month. It is important that EU member states EU Membership: Referendum collectively and individually work to ensure the success of next year’s Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most recent 20. Nia Griffith: To ask the Secretary of State for assessment is of the merits of holding a referendum on Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent the UK’s membership of the European Union. [302615] discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on nuclear non-proliferation policy. [302614] Chris Bryant: The UK has a Parliament whose Members are elected to take decisions that affect the nation. Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign There has to be a strong reason to have a referendum in Secretary regularly discuss nuclear non-proliferation the UK. There was no referendum on our entry into the with EU colleagues, most recently with Guido Westerwelle, then European Community in 1973: that decision was the new German Foreign Minister, last month. It is made by our democratically-elected Parliament. important that EU member states collectively and individually work to ensure the success of next year’s Middle East Peace Process Non-Proliferation Treaty Review Conference. 22. Andrew Gwynne: To ask the Secretary of State for 23. Sandra Osborne: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his most Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what his latest recent assessment is of progress in the middle east assessment is of the prospects for progress towards peace process; and if he will make a statement. [302616] disarmament and non-proliferation at the Non- Proliferation Treaty Review Conference in 2010. Mr. Ivan Lewis: This is a challenging time. People feel [302617] frustrated that negotiations have not yet been re-launched. But we must not give up hope. Negotiations are the only Chris Bryant: There are clear indications that the way to achieve a two-state solution. The US remains mood is changing. The UN Security Council Summit committed to this goal, and it has our full support. We and Resolution 1887 of 24 September 2009 showed the want the recent Israeli announcement to become a step international community united in support of creating on the way to the resumption of meaningful negotiations. 625W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 626W

St. Helena Mr. Ivan Lewis: Foreign and Commonwealth Office Ministers and staff at all levels are in regular contact with representatives of BP in the UK and overseas. 24. Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will visit St. In light of such regular and global contacts, the cost Helena to discuss its strategic importance to the UK. of providing the information requested would incur [302618] disproportionate cost. Colombia Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has no current plans to visit St. Helena. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for I will meet St. Helena Councillor Gunnell on 7 and 9 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will restart December 2009 during the Overseas Territories Consultative his Department’s programme of human rights training Council meeting. Foreign and Commonwealth Office and assistance for senior military personnel in Colombia. officials remain in regular contact with St. Helena officials. [303022]

British Indian Ocean Territory: Environment Protection Chris Bryant: No.

Convention on Cluster Munitions Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what account was taken of the UN International Law of the Sea in Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign respect of his Department’s proposal to establish a and Commonwealth Affairs when the UK will ratify Chagos Archipelago Marine Protected Area. [302474] the Convention on Cluster Munitions. [303500] Mr. Ivan Lewis: On 3 December my right hon. Friend Chris Bryant: No decision has yet been taken on the Foreign Secretary signed the Convention on Cluster whether a Marine Protected Area will be established in Munitions on behalf of the UK. Before the UK can the British Indian Ocean Territory. A decision will be proceed with ratifying the Convention legislation is taken following the public consultation which is currently necessary to implement in UK law the Convention’s underway. Any Marine Protected Area that may be prohibitions on the use, production, stockpiling and established will be compliant with the UN Convention transfer of cluster munitions. On 19 November 2009 the on the Law of the Sea. Cluster Munitions (Prohibitions) Bill was introduced in the House of Lords. This Bill would implement the Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Convention on Cluster Munitions prohibitions. It is the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what geographic Government’s aim to ratify the Convention as soon as limits have been set for the enforceable implementation possible following the Act’s entry into force. of the proposed Chagos Archipelago Marine Protected Area. [302475] Democratic Republic of Congo

Chris Bryant: No decision has yet been taken on Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign whether a Marine Protected Area will be established in and Commonwealth Affairs how many allegations his the British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT). A decision Department has received of ill-treatment of asylum will be taken following the public consultation which is seekers returned from the UK to the Democratic at present underway. The geographic extent of protection Republic of Congo in each of the last four years; and will depend on which, if any, of the options for the how many inquiries his Department has carried out fisheries is decided upon. into such allegations in each such year. [302930] The maximum limit of any Marine Protected Area in Mr. Ivan Lewis [holding answer 30 November 2009]: the BIOT would be within the 200 nautical miles radius The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) does of the Environmental Preservation and Protection Zone not record the number of allegations of ill-treatment of of the BIOT. This zone was established by formal individuals who return to the Democratic Republic of Proclamation No. 1 of 17 September 2003 and issued Congo (DRC). by the Commissioner for BIOT. A copy of the Proclamation, together with copies of the relevant charts The FCO and the UK Border Agency (UKBA) do and co-ordinates was deposited with the UN on 12 March not proactively monitor the treatment of individuals 2004 in accordance with Article 75, paragraph 2 of the who return to the DRC, unless there are exceptional Convention on the Law of the Sea, and can be viewed at circumstances that warrant doing so. Where specific the following link: allegations are made that a returning asylum seeker has experienced ill-treatment, then these allegations are http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONAND TREATIES/STATEFILES/GBR.htm investigated jointly by the UKBA and the FCO. The best way to avoid ill-treatment is to make sure British Petroleum that we do not return those who are at real risk. The DRC authorities’ treatment of returning failed asylum seekers to the DRC has been covered as a discrete issue Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in numerous immigration appeal decisions over the past and Commonwealth Affairs on what dates representatives five years, all of which have held that returned failed of his Department have met executives of BP plc in asylum seekers are not at risk of persecution on account each year since 2002. [301576] of having claimed asylum in the UK. 627W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 628W

On 3 December 2008, the Court of Appeal upheld an Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary Asylum and Immigration Tribunal finding that there is has had regular contact with his French and German no evidence that failed asylum seekers who are returned opposite numbers on a range of Lisbon treaty from the UK to DRC face a risk of persecution on implementation issues, including on the appointment of return. We remain satisfied that failed asylum seekers the High Representative. are at no greater risk of being singled out for questioning by the authorities than any other DRC national returning Europe: Politics and Government to the country after time spent away. Mark Pritchard: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Legislation Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has had on an (a) Hamas funding of minority Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign parties in Eastern and Central Europe and (b) the and Commonwealth Affairs what criminal offences have potential for such parties to participate in coalition been (a) abolished and (b) created by primary legislation governments in EU member and partner states in the sponsored by his Department since 1 May 2008. period to 2014. [303223] [303251] Mr. Ivan Lewis: We have had no such discussions. Chris Bryant: In primary legislation sponsored by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office since 1 May 2008 Hanslope Park no offences have been abolished. The Geneva Conventions and UN Personnel (Protocols) Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for Act 2009 (i) amends the Geneva Conventions Act 1957 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take to provide protection under the criminal law in respect steps to encourage staff working at Hanslope Park to of grave breaches of the Third Additional Protocol to (a) use public transport and (b) car share to minimise the Geneva Conventions, involving the misuse of the congestion on roads around the site during rush hour. new humanitarian emblem, the Red Crystal and [302648] (ii) amends the United Nations Personnel Act 1997 to provide that offences under that Act will also apply to Chris Bryant: There is currently no viable option for attacks against UN workers involved in delivering staff wishing to commute to Hanslope Park by public humanitarian, political or development assistance, as transport. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) required by the 2005 Optional Protocol to the Convention operate a car share scheme at Hanslope Park and at last in the Safety of UN and Associated Personnel. count in April 2008, 19.2 per cent. of staff commuted in a shared vehicle. Departmental Scientists We are preparing a travel plan for Hanslope Park to further reduce the proportion of staff commuting to Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign the site in single occupancy vehicles, including by and Commonwealth Affairs how many (a) scientific re-examining the car share scheme. advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific posts there We are improving facilities for cyclists at Hanslope are in his Department. [302026] Park and will introduce the ‘Cycle to Work’ purchase scheme for all UK FCO staff in the new year. Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has one Chief Scientific Adviser (CSA), High Representative for Foreign Affairs: President of Professor David Clary FRS, appointed in August 2009. The European Council Professor Clary is supported by two civil servants, consisting of the Head of CSA Office and 50 per cent. of a shared Mr. Bone: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Personal Assistant. and Commonwealth Affairs, what assessment he has The joint FCO-Department for Business Innovation made of the effectiveness of the process by which the and Skills (DBIS) Science and Innovation Network proposed President of the European Council and the (SIN) has approximately 90 full-time equivalent staff, EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and including locally engaged staff, in 40 cities across 25 Security Policy were selected. [303011] countries. Of these, 18 are UK civil servants. SIN officers are scientifically literate staff based in Chris Bryant: The elected leaders of the 27 member FCO Posts, mainly in countries with the greatest science states of the EU came together in the European Council and innovation activities. They do not necessarily come and decided unanimously to appoint Herman Van Rompuy from a science background. The UK management team as President of the European Council, and Baroness for the SIN are based in the International Science and Catherine Ashton of Upholland as High Representative. Innovation Unit at DBIS. India: Religious Freedom EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what steps the Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Government has taken with the government of India to and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he had assist in the protection of Christians in Orissa. [303118] with his (a) German and (b) French counterpart on the appointment of the EU High Representative for Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Government have not provided Foreign Affairs and Security Policy before the assistance to the Government of India for the protection appointment was made. [303568] of Christians in Orissa. The Department for International 629W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 630W

Development is providing £10 million for community Iran: Bahai Faith development in Orissa through the Tribal Empowerment and Livelihoods Programme from 2004-10. The programme has helped to increase incomes, reduce malnutrition David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for and improve water and sanitation for over 375,000 Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent tribal men and women in four districts of Orissa, including representations he has made to the Government of Kandhamal. Iran on the treatment of members of the Baha’i faith in that country. [302127] Our high commission in New Delhi is also supporting a pilot project to improve access to justice in Kandhamal by improving awareness of citizens’ rights and the capacity Mr. Ivan Lewis: Alongside our EU partners we have of lawyers to effectively pursue cases for victims of the expressed concerns about the treatment of the Baha’i communal violence in 2008. community in Iran to the Iranian Government on several occasions. The EU Presidency summoned the Iranian Ambassador on 10 July 2009, and expressed deep concern Iran about the overall situation of the Baha’is in Iran, especially the charges ‘espionage’ and “corruption on earth” against the seven Baha’i leaders imprisoned for over a year Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign without trial. and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made any recent representations to the Iranian authorities on the Most recently, on 20 November 2009, the UN General continued use of the death penalty in that country. Assembly adopted a Resolution on human rights in [303457] Iran for the seventh consecutive year. The Resolution condemns ‘attacks on Baha’is and their faith in State- Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK has ongoing concerns about sponsored media, increasing evidence of efforts by the the number of executions in Iran and in particular its State to identify, monitor and arbitrarily detain Baha’is, use against juvenile offenders. We are committed to preventing members of the Baha’i faith from attending speaking out publicly against the death penalty and university and from sustaining themselves economically’. frequently make representations on behalf of individuals We will continue to urge Iran to respect the right to at risk of execution. freedom of religion and belief as described in the We have done so on over twenty occasions in 2009. In International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to October, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary which Iran is a State Party. condemned the execution of Behnood Shojaee for a crime he committed at the age of 17, and expressed grave concern for Safar Angoti, a juvenile facing imminent Iran: Press Freedom execution. Most recently, on 20 November 2009, the Swedish Government, as president of the EU, summoned the Iranian ambassador in Stockholm to condemn a Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for spate of executions, including that of Kurdish activist Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Ehsan Fattahian. They expressed concern that a high representations he has made to the government of Iran number of Kurds faced a similar fate and called for on press freedom in that country. [303456] clemency. The presidency also expressed concern that at least Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK has serious concerns about five persons have been sentenced to death as a result of wide ranging restrictions on press and media in Iran. mass trials following the disputed election result. We Since the elections in June repressive measures have are concerned that the accused had not been given the been reinforced and pressure on journalists has increased. right to fair trial in accordance with standards laid Restrictions on both domestic and foreign media remain down in international law. at an even higher level than before the elections. Alongside EU partners we have made it clear to the Iranian authorities that these restrictions are unacceptable. Iran: Arms Control In June, EU Ministers condemned interference with the media, including the unjustified detention of journalists Mr. Hague: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and the expulsion of foreign correspondents. In a meeting and Commonwealth Affairs what recent assessment with the Deputy Foreign Minister in Tehran on 26 August, has been made of Iranian compliance with UN the EU made clear that the ongoing media restrictions Security Council Resolutions banning the export of were unacceptable. In a declaration of 23 October, the arms from Iran; and if he will make a statement. EU, with strong UK support, deplored the ongoing [301975] violations of freedom of expression and freedom of the press in connection with the events following the elections. David Miliband: The UK takes allegations of violations We have also supported action at the UN. On of UN Security Council Resolutions very seriously. We 20 November, the General Assembly adopted a resolution are aware that the Iran Sanctions Committee is currently on the human rights situation in Iran for the seventh investigating recent incidents with the member states consecutive year. This resolution, co-sponsored by the concerned. The Committee will provide a report on its EU activities in its annual report, which will be published in “expresses deep concern at ongoing, systemic and serious restrictions December 2009. The Government fully support the of...freedom of opinion and expression, including those imposed Committee pursuing this matter thoroughly and urgently. on the media, Internet users and trade unions.” 631W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 632W

Iraq and Afghanistan: Reconstruction Chris Bryant: The total spent to date on projects Mr. Lancaster: To ask the Secretary of State for funded under the Strategic Programme Fund (SPF) is Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how much has as follows: been spent on each project funded under the Strategic Afghanistan: £78,497,550 Programme Fund in (a) Iraq and (b) Afghanistan in each of the last five years. [300712] Iraq: £106,610

£ Afghanistan Iraq Afghan Counter Counter Terrorism and Engaging with the Counter Terrorism and Narcotics Radicalisation Islamic World Total Radicalisation

2004-05 3,000,000 680,846 — 3,680,846 — 2005-06 6,000,000 968,331 — 6,968,331 — 2006-07 16,300,000 881,871 430,680 17,612,551 — 2007-08 16,300,000 — 635,822 16,935,822 55,016 2008-09 30,900,000 2,400,000 — 33,300,000 51,594

The Afghan Counter Narcotics programme has by British academics working in Italian universities. far the lion’s share of SPF expenditure in Afghanistan. [303383] Projects are directed towards the Afghan National Drugs Control Strategy which has eight pillars of activity: Chris Bryant: In its judgments of June 2001 and July raising public awareness; promoting international and 2006, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) found that regional co-operation; promoting alternative livelihoods; the Italian Government was in breach of European law, reducing demand for drugs; law enforcement; establishing because a 1995 law had discriminated against non-Italian an effective criminal justice system; targeted eradication nationals in determining the rights and benefits of of opium; building effective Afghan government institutions. foreign-language assistants in universities, who were redesignated as “linguistic experts” under the new law. Projects under the Counter Terrorism and Engaging with the Islamic World programmes have focused on The Association of Foreign Lecturers in Italy has developing police and security capabilities, including contacted the Foreign and Commonwealth Office about the design and build of good governance structures in this case. My officials advised them to raise their concerns Afghanistan and Iraq. The work is closely aligned with over Italy’s alleged non-compliance with the ECJ ruling our counter-terrorism objectives as set out in the with the European Commission, the body legally responsible Government’s counter-terrorism strategy, Contest. for enforcing compliance with European law. Officials will meet the Association on 8 December 2009 to discuss Israel: Borders the outcome of the latter’s consultations with the Commission. Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Middle East: Armed Conflict and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received on changes in the levels of trading and economic activity Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign on the West Bank following the removal by Israel of and Commonwealth Affairs what recent reports he has checkpoints and security barriers. [301840] received on the number of Hezbollah (a) troops, (b) rockets and (c) training camps in southern Lebanon. Mr. Ivan Lewis: There has not yet been a detailed [301836] assessment of the impact of the removal of some obstacles in the West Bank on levels of trading and economic Mr. Ivan Lewis: The latest UN report on United activity, because the changes occurred too recently to Nations Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1701 have gathered comprehensive data. However, there is highlighted that Hizballah continues to maintain a clear anecdotal evidence that the new permissive regime substantial military capacity distinct from that of the which allows Israeli Arabs to enter and shop in Palestinian Lebanese State, in direct contravention of UNSCRs areas (Area A in the West Bank) is boosting trade and 1559 and 1701. It also makes clear that Hizballah have service industries in these areas. There is also anecdotal not challenged allegations regarding its armament and evidence to suggest that Palestinians now have access to increased military capability. All these reports are available most places in the West Bank, although delays continue on the UN website at: to be economically costly. There continue to be problems http://www.un.org/Docs/sc/sgrep09.htm and delays for Palestinian businesses in the West Bank This, combined with statements made by Hizballah that wish to import or export goods; but there is anecdotal officials, suggest that Hizballah has increased its military evidence to suggest that the volume of exports from the capacity. However, we lack definitive figures. West Bank may have increased as a result of the extended commercial opening hours of the Allenby crossing. Middle East: Peace Negotiations

Italy Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has Mr. Kilfoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign had with his counterpart in the (a) EU, (b) US and and Commonwealth Affairs what discussions he has (c) Russian Federation on the proposal for a Palestinian had with the Italian government on the pay levels of state made by the Palestinian Prime Minister. [301859] 633W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 634W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: We are supportive of Prime Minister Shell Fayyad’s two year plan to progress Palestinian governance and institutional capacity building efforts. Mr. Wallace: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Making progress on these issues is essential for the and Commonwealth Affairs on what dates representatives creation of a future Palestinian State. The UK therefore of his Department have met Royal Dutch Shell executives discusses them regularly with key partners: EU Foreign in each year since 2002. [301579] Ministers most recently pledged their support for the proposal at the General Affairs and External Relations Council on 17 November 2009; my right hon. Friend Mr. Ivan Lewis: Foreign and Commonwealth Office the Foreign Secretary has regular conversations on the Ministers and staff at all levels are in regular contact Middle East Peace Process with US Special Envoy to with representatives of Royal Dutch Shell in the UK the Middle East, Senator George Mitchell; and on 2 and overseas. November 2009, the Foreign Secretary released a joint In light of such regular and global contacts, the cost statement with Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov where of providing the information requested would incur we urged: disproportionate cost. “the Palestinian National Authority to continue in its efforts to strengthen security and the rule of law, building on achievements South Africa: Chess reached so far”.

Mikhail Khodorkovsky Mr. Hayes: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, with reference to the Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign answer of 8 July 2009, Official Report, column 862W, and Commonwealth Affairs whether his Department on taking chess to the townships project, what recent plans to monitor the forthcoming trial of Mikhail representations he has received from Mr. Ted Khodorkovsky. [303200] Nottingham on the taking chess to the townships initiative; and if he will meet representatives of the Chris Bryant: Our embassy in Moscow is watching organisers of the project to discuss the project’s future. developments in Mr. Khodorkovsky’s case closely, and [302565] is participating in trial monitoring with EU partners and the US. Mr. Ivan Lewis: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has received a number of representations Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign from Mr. Nottingham, including via his MP, about his and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has had discussions “Taking Chess to the Townships”initiative. Most recently, with the Russian Federation government about the my noble Friend the Minister for Africa and the UN, imprisonment and trial of Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Baroness Kinnock wrote on 19 November 2009 to [303201] reiterate that while the Foreign and Commonwealth Office wished Mr. Nottingham well with his initiative, it Chris Bryant: We regularly raise our concerns regarding could not provide any support for it. the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, bilaterally and through the EU. The issue was last raised by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary with Russian Foreign Minister Sudan: Armed Conflict Lavrov on 2 November 2009 during the Foreign Secretary’s visit to Moscow. David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Parliamentary Assemblies: Finance and Commonwealth Affairs what reports he has received of rearmament of rebel groups in the Darfur region; and if he will make a statement. [302981] Mr. Chope: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what the running costs of the (a) North Atlantic Assembly, (b) Assembly of Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Panel of Experts on Sudan Western European Union and (c) Parliamentary Assembly established under UN Security Council Resolution 1591 of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in has detailed multiple cases of the transfer of military Europe were in the most recent year for which figures equipment into Darfur in violation of the UN embargo. are available; and what the Government’s contribution We are also aware of recent press reports of rearmament was to the costs of each such assembly in that year. by rebel groups. [302838] The UK has consistently reiterated to all parties the need to respect the UN arms embargo on Darfur and Mr. Ivan Lewis [holding answer 30 November 2009]: the EU embargo covering all of Sudan, including in The 2009 budget for the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation contacts with representatives of the armed movements, Parliamentary Assembly, formerly known as the North Government of Sudan and neighbouring countries. Atlantic Assembly, was ¤3,722,650. The UK contribution was ¤518,584. David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign In 2009, the Western European Union Parliamentary and Commonwealth Affairs what recent discussions he Assembly cost its 10 member states ¤6,359,336. Of this has had with representatives of (a) the Sudanese total, the UK contribution was ¤1,367,161. government and (b) the United Nations-African Union The overall budget for 2009-10 for the Organisation Mission in Darfur on the Sudanese government’s policies for Security and Co-operation in Europe Parliamentary towards UN peacekeeping patrols in the Darfur region Assembly is ¤2,856,128. The UK contribution is ¤267,035. in 2009. [302982] 635W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 636W

Mr. Ivan Lewis: We regularly press the Government BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS of Sudan, the UN African Union hybrid mission to Darfur (UNAMID) and other parties in Darfur to act Bankruptcy: East of England to improve security there, including by respecting the Status of Forces Agreement with the UN. My hon. Friend the Minister of State for International Development Nadine Dorries: To ask the Minister of State, (Mr. Thomas) raised our concerns over security during Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how his visit to Sudan on 14-15 October 2009. We underlined many bankruptcies of individuals in each age group the issues again in the UN Security Council discussions there have been in (a) Mid-Bedfordshire constituency of Darfur on 30 November 2009, and in talks that day and (b) the East of England in (i) 2008 and (ii) 2009 to in Geneva with the UN, the Government of Sudan and date. [302914] other partners on the humanitarian situation in Darfur. Ian Lucas: The available information for bankruptcies in Mid-Bedfordshire and the East of England, in 2008 Uganda: Homosexuality by age group, can be seen in Table 1 as follows. Information for 2009 is not currently available, as regional insolvency Chris McCafferty: To ask the Secretary of State for statistics are only compiled on an annual basis. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what representations Table 1: Bankruptcies in 2008 the Government has made to the Ugandan government Age group1 on its proposed legislation to (a) increase penalties for Under homosexuality and (b) introduce the death sentence for Region2 25 25-34 35-44 45-54 55-64 65+ Unknown HIV positive homosexuals. [300314] Mid- 11825227 3 2 Bedfordshire Mr. Ivan Lewis [holding answer 25 November 2009]: East of 331 1867 2331 1468 805 278 266 The legislation is a Private Member’s Bill, which was England introduced on 14 October 2009 and is currently at 1 Where the bankrupt has provided a valid date of birth (93.4 per cent. in 2008). committee stage in Uganda’s Parliament. It has not so 2 Where the bankrupt has provided a valid postcode (96.9 per cent. in 2008). far been adopted formally by the Ugandan Government. We have grave concerns about the Bill, which we have Departmental Official Hospitality made clear in representations to Ugandan Ministers including by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister of State, Department President Museveni and my noble Friend, the Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills what expenditure for Africa and the UN, Baroness Kinnock to Foreign his Department incurred on entertainment at 1 Victoria Minister Kutesa at the recent Commonwealth Heads of Street, London SW1 in 2008-09. [301394] Government Meeting. Our concerns include the negative impact the Bill would have on the rights of homosexual Mr. McFadden: The Department spent £1,078,530 on and heterosexual Ugandans through the criminalisation entertainment in 2008-09. Information on how much of of any action that could be construed as support for that sum was spent at 1 Victoria Street could only be homosexuality, the introduction of the death penalty obtained at disproportionate cost. for some acts criminalised by the Bill, and the potential impact of the Bill on the fight against HIV/AIDS in Uganda. Departmental Pay The UK is also in close touch with and is supporting John McDonnell: To ask the Minister of State, Ugandan civil society organisations campaigning against Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the Bill. the (a) average and (b) highest non-consolidated performance related payment was in cash terms for a Western Sahara: Politics and Government senior civil servant in his Department in each of the last five years. [300825] Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs which country the Mr. McFadden: The Department for Business, Innovation UK has recognised as the administering power de facto and Skills (BIS) was formed in June 2009 by the merger in that part of the territory of Western Sahara that is of the Department for Business Enterprise and Regulatory not occupied by Morocco. [301866] Reform (BERR) and the Department for Innovation Universities and Skills (DIUS). No performance related Mr. Ivan Lewis: The UK does not regard any country payments have yet been awarded to the Senior Civil as administering de facto that part of the territory of Service in BIS. Western Sahara not under Moroccan control. BERR and DIUS were themselves created in June While Morocco has administered most of the territory 2007 in a Machinery of Government change. of Western Sahara since 1976, the UK regards the Non-consolidated non-pensionable performance awards status of the whole of Western Sahara as undetermined are paid to staff in the senior civil service (SCS) to pending UN led efforts to achieve a just, lasting and reward delivery of business objectives and personal mutually acceptable political solution to the conflict, contributions to wider organisational goals. Performance which will provide for the self-determination of the awards are part of the pay system across the whole people of Western Sahara. The UK Government fully senior civil service, and are used to reward high performance support the efforts of the UN Secretary-General and sustained throughout the year, based on judgments of his Personal Envoy Christopher Ross in this regard. how well an individual has performed relative to their 637W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 638W peers. The performance related pay scheme is designed permitted under both the Landmines Act 1998 and the to help drive high performance and support better Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, public service delivery. Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and The size of the non-consolidated performance pay on Their Destruction. pot to be divided between members of the SCS each year is based on recommendations by the independent Lord Rothschild Senior Salaries Review Body. The information available for BERR and DIUS senior Mr. Carswell: To ask the Minister of State, Department civil servants who were in the SCS pay system is shown for Business, Innovation and Skills on what date the in the following table.1 Secretary of State notified the Permanent Secretary of 1 These figures exclude senior civil servants who are employed on hospitality received from Lord Rothschild in August fixed term contracts with individual remuneration arrangements. 2009; and what advice the Secretary of State received from the Permanent Secretary on the matter. [303588] £ Average SCS Largest SCS Mr. McFadden: My noble Friend the Secretary of Department award award State notified the Permanent Secretary before the summer break of his plans to accept accommodation from Lord 2008-09 BERR 8,580 14,000 Rothschild and declared the hospitality in the Register 2008-09 DIUS 8,473 20,000 of Lords’ Interests afterwards. 2007-08 BERR 7,874 17,000 2007-08 DIUS 9,141 20,000 Research: Standards In accordance with Cabinet Office guidance 25 per cent. of the SCS in both BERR and DIUS received no Adam Afriyie: To ask the Minister of State, Department bonus. for Business, Innovation and Skills what definition of (a) economic and (b) social impact is used for the Departmental Temporary Employment purposes of assessment under the Research Excellence Framework. [301918] Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the estimated Mr. Lammy: HEFCE are currently consulting on cost to the public sector is of the implementation of the proposals for the Research Excellence Framework on EU Agency Workers Directive. [303196] behalf of the four UK funding bodies. Their proposals are for three components: output quality, impact, and Mr. McFadden: The impact assessment accompanying environment. Their consultation proposes that: the consultation on draft regulations published by the ″there should be a wide definition of impacts, including economic, Department on 15 October social, public policy, cultural and quality of life.″ www.bis.gov.uk/consulations The consultation closes on 16 December. The consultation set out the estimated costs and benefits of the directive. paper is available on the HEFCE website: Under a 12-week qualifying period for equal treatment, http://www.hefce.ac.uk/research/ref/ as agreed under the TUC/CBI agreement of 20 May HEFCE are also running pilot exercises to test out the 2008, the cost to public sector hirers was estimated to be impact assessment approach. between £227 and £337 million a year. Departmental Travel Saif al-Islam Gaddafi

Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Carswell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on what date the for Business, Innovation and Skills what discussions the Secretary of State last travelled by (a) bus and (b) taxi Secretary of State had with the Permanent Secretary of his Department on the Ministerial Code prior to meeting in the course of his official duties. [302732] Saif al-Islam Gaddafi; and what advice the Secretary of Mr. McFadden: My noble Friend the Secretary of State received from the Permanent Secretary on that State is supplied with a Government car with which to matter. [303188] undertake his official duties. Mr. McFadden: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Land Mines: Exports I gave to the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) on 9 September 2009, Official Report, column 2077W. Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many anti-personnel mines were exported from the UK in each of the last 10 Strategic Investment Fund years. [302347] Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Minister of State, Ian Lucas: BIS’s Export Control Organisation only Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how holds information on export licences, not on actual much funding from the Strategic Investment Fund has exports. One licence was issued in 2003 for the export to been (a) disbursed and (b) allocated to projects in USA of 20 anti-personnel mines. The stated end-use of each (i) constituency, (ii) local authority area and (iii) the mines was for the development of techniques for the Government Office region since the inception of that detection of anti-personnel mines. Such exports are Fund. [301874] 639W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 640W

Mr. McFadden: Over £720 million has already been costs. Ensuring that helplines align with advice provided allocated from the Strategic Investment Fund for specific on the web helps to manage demand, which can in turn projects and investments. We expect that in the region reduce costs. of £200 million will have been spent by the end of this current financial year. The SIF is a UK-wide fund, and many of the projects COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT supported by the SIF are themselves UK-wide in geographical scope. This includes for example achieving Affordable Housing universal access to broadband, as part of the Digital Britain programme, and the UK Innovation Investment Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for Fund. It is not possible at present to provide information Communities and Local Government pursuant to the on the geographical distribution of spend under these answer of 24 November 2009, Official Report, columns projects. 70-1W, on the Homes and Communities Agency, how A number of other projects supported under the SIF much the Homes and Communities Agency has received can be identified to specific geographical locations, in proceeds from resales under the (a) First Time though the benefits of the projects will often be felt over Buyer’s Initiative, (b) HomeBuy Direct, (c) New Build a much wider area. Projects of this kind include the HomeBuy and (d) Open Market HomeBuy Scheme in following, which will receive either full or part funding each of the last three years; and what the average from the SIF: amount received by the Agency was in respect of such a transaction. [302955] Total BIS support Project Geographical location (£ million) John Healey: For (a), the following table shows Industrial Biotech Wilton, Teeside 12.0 repayments received by the Homes and Communities Demonstrator Agency (HCA) in 2008-09: Airbus A350XWB Broughton, Clwyd 340.0 FTBI repayments received by the HCA 2008-09 Launch Investment and Filton, SW £ England Printable Electronics Sedgefield, Durham 12.0 2008-09 107,592 Centre Rolls Royce low Derby, East 45.0 For (b), HomeBuy Direct became operational in carbon aeroengine Midlands February 2009. There were no resales in the last three technology years. Centre of Excellence Bristol, SW 0.5 for Silicon Design England For (c) and (d), grant invested in Open Market National Composites Bristol, SW 12.0 HomeBuy and New Build HomeBuy properties, through Centre England Registered Social Landlords (who own the properties) Stevenage Bioscience Stevenage, Herts 12.0 is credited to the Recycled Capital Grant Fund (RCGF) Park for provision of new social lets or other low cost homes Wave Hub—test-bed Hayle, Cornwall 9.5 when the properties are sold whole or through shared forwaveenergy ownership terms. devices The total proceeds received by the HCA from sales of South West Marine SW England 10.0 grant funded properties in the last three years are as Energy Development follows: Wave and Tidal Blyth, 10.0 Energy Test Centre Northumberland Recovered grant (£)

Further details on these projects and other investments 2006-07 12,215,887 being funded from the SIF are contained in the Interim 2007-08 9,514,917 Report the Department published in October, copies of 2008-09 18,583,258 which are available in the Libraries of the House. Source: HCA. Telephone Services Audit Commission: Public Relations

Lindsay Roy: To ask the Minister of State, Department Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will bring and Local Government what payments the Audit forward measures to reduce the costs of operating Commission has made to Connect Public Affairs in the national telephone helplines to (a) Government agencies last 12 months; for what purposes; and if he will place and (b) charities. [303427] in the Library a copy of each of the contracts under which such payments have been made. [302205] Mr. Timms: The cross-Government Service Transformation programme, led by Cabinet Office, is Ms Rosie Winterton: This is an operational matter for working to improve helpline services delivered to citizens the Audit Commission, and I will ask the chief executive and business while reducing costs. This covers helplines of the Audit Commission to write to the hon. Member provided by central Government, agencies and charities. direct. Where it makes sense to bring helplines together to Letter from Steve Bundred, dated 1 December 2009: make it easier for people to access the support they Your Parliamentary Question outlined above has been passed need, there will be opportunities to reduce operating to me to reply. 641W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 642W

The Audit Commission has contracted work from Connect Departmental Domestic Visits Public Affairs over the last 12 months totalling £55,616.76 (details attached). David Simpson: To ask the Secretary of State for The total cost includes work carried out under contract and ad hoc commissioned work. There is not one overall contract, but an Communities and Local Government on how many example of the individual contract used is attached and has been occasions he visited (a) Scotland, (b) Wales and (c) placed in the Library. Northern Ireland in an official capacity in the last A copy of this letter will be placed in Hansard. 12 months. [303483]

Purpose Amount (£) Barbara Follett: The Secretary of State has not been to Scotland or Northern Ireland since his appointment 2 January 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee in 1,601.25 in June. He has been to Wales, participating in a Regional December 2008 Cabinet in Cardiff on 23 July 2009. 12 January 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee in 1,601.25 November 2008 Departmental Legislation 11 February Parliamentary monitoring 1,601.25 2009 11 February CPA Conservative Shadow Cabinet 9,607.50 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for 2009 Communities and Local Government what criminal 17 February Events planner for January 2009 1,067.50 offences have been (a) abolished and (b) created by 2009 primary legislation sponsored by his Department since 11 March 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee during 1,601.25 February 2009 1 May 2008. [303247] 20 March 2009 Management of events planner 533.75 27 March 2009 One off project fee to identify key 2,668.75 Barbara Follett: The Department has sponsored four prospective parliamentary candidates Acts that have received Royal Assent since 1 May 2008. 27 March 2009 One off project fee to develop a public 6,405.00 Housing and Regeneration Act 2008; affairs strategy 27 March 2009 Project fee to assist with party 907.38 Planning Act 2008; conference planning Business Rate Supplements Act 2009; and 24 April 2009 Office expenses including phone for 533.75 Local Democracy, Economic Development and Construction mgt of events planner Act 2009. 24 April 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee 1,601.25 (a) 10 criminal offences were abolished by the Housing 3 June 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee 2,135.00 and Regeneration Act 2008; and 10 June 2009 One off project fee 2,668.75 12 June 2009 Connect fee as agreed 1,067.50 (b) 20 criminal offences were created—13 by the Housing 13 July 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee June 2,135.00 and Regeneration Act 2008 and seven by the Planning 2009 Act 2008. 13 July 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee May 2,135.00 2009 Departmental Press Officers 27 July 2009 Connect fee, analysis and overview of 2,135.00 local election results 10 August 2009 Parliamentary monitoring fee 2,135.00 Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities 14 September Connect fee 2,135.00 and Local Government how many full-time equivalent 2009 press officers (a) are employed by and (b) work for his 14 September Connect fee 1,601.25 Department. [303594] 2009 14 September Parliamentary monitoring fee 2,135.00 Barbara Follett: 21 full-time equivalent press officers 2009 are employed by and work for Communities and Local 9 November Parliamentary monitoring fee October 2,668.75 2009 2009 Government. 9 November Parliamentary monitoring fee 2,935.63 2009 Departmental Public Expenditure Total 55,616.76 Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what the cost to his Department was of provision of office facilities to (a) special advisers Capita and (b) press officers in the 2008-09 financial year. [302977] Mr. Touhig: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether any contracts Barbara Follett: CLG does not record office facilities between Capita Group plc and his Department and its costs broken down by individual business area or unit predecessors have been cancelled before completion and therefore the information requested is not available. since 1997; and whether Capita Group plc has been liable for any penalties arising from failings in the Departmental Travel administration of contracts with his Department and its predecessor since 1997. [303082] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government on what date he Barbara Follett: The Department, and its predecessors, last travelled by (a) bus and (b) taxi in the course of have no record of contracts with Capita plc being his official duties. [302734] cancelled before completion. Capita Group plc has not been liable to any penalties from failings in the Barbara Follett: The Secretary of State has not travelled administration of contracts since 1997. by bus or taxi in the course of his official duties. 643W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 644W

Derelict Land longer term works of repair and restoration, such as tree planting and repair or refurbishment of damaged but not dangerous structures; Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities any element of betterment, e.g. repairs to buildings to a and Local Government how many acres of brownfield significantly higher standard than their condition on the day there are in cities on which building development may before the incident. not take place. [302083] Homes and Communities Agency Mr. Ian Austin: Information is not held centrally on the area of brownfield land in cities on which building Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for development may not take place. Information on the Communities and Local Government what the functions total amount of previously developed land that may be are of the Homes and Communities Agency’s National available for development by local authority is available Consultancy Unit; and if he will make a statement. from the National Land Use Database of Previously- [302804] Developed Land which is published by the Homes and Communities Agency. John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to Section D of Floods: Cumbria the answer I gave to the hon. Member for Meriden (Mrs. Spelman) on 19 October 2009, Official Report, column 1295W. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether local Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for authorities will be able to claim for expenditure under Communities and Local Government pursuant to the the 0.2 per cent. qualifying expenditure arrangements answer of 24 November 2009, Official Report, column under the Bellwin scheme in respect of expenditure 73W,on the Homes and Communities Agency: manpower, necessitated by the recent floods in Cumbria. [302318] from which organisation each member of staff was seconded. [302950] Barbara Follett: All the local authorities in Cumbria may apply for Bellwin funding in respect of the recent John Healey: Of the 50 secondees to Homes and floods. For this scheme, we have exceptionally decided Communities Agency, the majority are from Communities that authorities may claim 100 per cent. grant above the and Local Government; with two from Savills and one threshold—which is set at 0.2 per cent. of an authority’s each from BERR, DCMS, English Heritage, Lambeth calculated annual revenue budget. Council, The Prince’s Trust, King Sturge, BBP Regeneration, London and Quadrant and Knight Frank. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether fire Housing and Planning Delivery Grant and rescue authorities are eligible for funding under the Bellwin scheme following the recent floods in Cumbria. [302320] Mr. Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government when he expects to publish the Barbara Follett: Fire and rescue authorities are eligible Housing, Planning and Delivery Grant settlement for for funding under the Bellwin scheme. In this particular local authorities for 2009-10. [302085] instance, Cumbria county council has responsibility for fire and rescue services and has already registered its Mr. Ian Austin: We will make an announcement intention to submit a Bellwin claim. shortly. Floods: Finance Housing: Building Regulations

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Horam: To ask the Secretary of State for for Communities and Local Government what Communities and Local Government with reference to categories of local authority expenditure are not the answer of 12 November 2009, Official Report, column eligible for emergency financial assistance under the 866W, on housing: building regulations, whether his Bellwin scheme. [303175] Department has revisited the impact assessment of funding for overground oil tanks. [302387] Barbara Follett: Annex B of the Bellwin guidance on the Communities and Local Government website: Mr. Ian Austin: The consultation on proposals to http://wwwcommunities.gov.uk/localgovernment/ revise part J (combustion appliances and fuel storage localgovernrnentfinance/bellwinscheme/ systems) of the building regulations came to an end on gives examples of expenditure that would not normally 26 November. The next steps are to analyse and publish qualify for funding under the Bellwin scheme. These a summary of responses, agree final proposals and include: revise the part J Approved Document (statutory guidance). As part of this process, we will revisit the impact costs which are normally insurable, whether by the authority assessment. or any other party (e.g. under household insurance policies); loss of income (e.g. from facilities closed as a result of the Housing: Empty Property emergency), as this falls outside the scope of section 155 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989; the normal wages and salaries of the authority’s regular employees, Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities whether diverted from their normal work or otherwise, and the and Local Government how many empty (a) private standing costs of the authority’s plant and equipment; and (b) public homes there were in each region of the 645W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 646W

UK in each of the last two years for which figures are grant. This means that authorities are free to spend the available; and if he will make a statement. [303204] money on any service provided that they meet their statutory duties. Mr. Ian Austin: The term public homes has been interpreted as those owned by local authorities and £ million registered social landlords (RSLs). Information is available Prior only for regions in England. years Current adjusted year’s A table showing estimates of the number of empty formula formula Percentage dwellings in the private and public sector in each region Local authority Year grant grant Change change in England in the last two years has been placed in the Kent county 2007-08 222.673 228.685 6.012 2.7 House Library. council Total vacant dwellings reported by local authorities 2008-09 250.743 259.366 8.624 3.4 through council taxbase returns include long term (six months and more) and short term vacancies. Figures Thanet district 2007-08 12.401 12.765 0.364 2.9 for RSLs are for self-contained general needs units only. council 2008-09 12.834 13.021 0.187 1.5 Housing: Energy

Dover district 2007-08 9.695 9.957 0.262 2.7 Derek Twigg: To ask the Secretary of State for council Communities and Local Government whether he plans 2008-09 10.013 10.113 0.100 1.0 to encourage the retrofitting of the existing housing stock with energy efficiency technologies through the Information on the provision of capital grants is not building regulations. [302090] held centrally. Supported borrowing or supported capital expenditure Mr. Ian Austin: Energy efficiency standards are set (revenue) is supported through formula grant. Since out in Part L of the Building Regulations, ‘Conservation formula grant is an unhypothecated block grant, and of fuel and power’. Part L requirements apply only due to the calculations of formula grant, particularly when building work is carried out to existing dwellings. floor damping, it is not possible to say how much grant The standards typically cover the construction of extensions, has been provided for the support of capital expenditure. the conversion of non-domestic buildings to dwellings, the installation of new and replacement heating, ventilation Local Government Services and lighting systems, window replacement, and other alterations. We have recently consulted on proposals to Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities raise Part L standards in 2010 and plan to publish a and Local Government whether he plans to extend summary of responses at the end of the year. Total Place pilots to include (a) the Stroud district and (b) other rural areas. [303206] Housing: Low Incomes Ms Rosie Winterton: 13 Total Place pilot authorities Mr. Dismore: To ask the Secretary of State for were chosen to ensure a diverse mix of economic, Communities and Local Government what applications geographical and demographic profiles. This includes he has received for funding under his Department’s rural areas. Kickstart programme for projects in Hendon; what There are also over 70 parallel places, urban and funding has been made available; and if he will make a rural, undertaking Total Place type activity.These numbers statement. [302096] continue to rise as more and more local authorities begin to consider the real potential of a whole area John Healey: Details of all round one approved kickstart approach, looking at all the services in their area and schemes, are posted on the Homes and Communities consider how they can bring about much needed change Agency’s website at: in the way these services can be delivered more effectively http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/kickstart housing and efficiently. This includes a project in Stonegrove. Operational Efficiency Programme Local Government Finance: Kent Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Secretary of State for and Local Government what efficiency savings projects Communities and Local Government how much funding (a) his Department and (b) its agencies put in place from (a) revenue support, (b) capital grant and (c) under the Operational Efficiency Programme; on what supported borrowing was provided by central Government date each such project was initiated; how much each to (i) Kent County Council, (ii) Thanet District Council such project was expected to contribute to departmental and (iii) Dover District Council in (A) 2007-08 and (B) savings; how much had been saved through each such 2008-09. [302136] project on the latest date for which figures are available; and if he will make a statement. [300928] Barbara Follett: Please find as follows a table providing the amount of formula grant, which is made up of Barbara Follett: The Department is approaching the revenue support grant and redistributed business rates efficiency agenda as a group endeavour in close for non-police authorities, for each of the authorities collaboration with our arms length bodies and Government requested. Formula grant is an unhypothecated block offices. We have made good progress on delivering on 647W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 648W the Operational Efficiency Programme and have a range Table 1: Shared ownership completions in Peterborough of initiatives in place to deliver efficiencies. These include Of which: implementing shared services and rationalising back Sales to Sales to Sales for which Shared people on people not waiting list office systems; collaborative procurement, where we are ownership housing on housing information is reviewing and renewing supplier arrangements across a sales waiting lists waiting lists not available range of common goods and services; consolidation of 1 1 1 office accommodation and implementing open plan 2004-05 9 — — — 1 1 and flexible desk sharing and rationalisation of our 2005-06 23 17 — — group estate. For our arms length bodies, delivering 2006-07 49 9 20 20 efficiencies is about transforming service delivery models 2007-08 58 n/a n/a n/a and improving front-line services to drive down costs. 2008-09 53 n/a n/a n/a We continue to work closely with our ALBs as they Table 2: Shared ownership completions in Cambridgeshire implement these initiatives. Of which: Sales to Sales to Sales for which Public Works Loans Board: Croydon Shared people on people not waiting list ownership housing on housing information is sales waiting lists waiting lists not available Malcolm Wicks: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government if he will make 2001-02 16 10 1— 1— an assessment of the circumstances necessitating 2002-03 6 1— 1— 1— Croydon Council’s loan of £145.6 million from the 2003-04 90 42 41 7 Public Works Loans Board; and if he will make a 2004-05 63 30 20 13 statement. [303436] 2005-06 91 52 25 14 2006-07 212 71 88 53 Barbara Follett: It is not appropriate for the Department 2007-08 209 n/a n/a n/a to make such an assessment or a statement on this 2008-09 227 n/a n/a n/a matter. Decisions on self-financed borrowing are a matter n/a = Not applicable. 1 No reliable estimate due to less than five respondents. for local authorities. The Prudential borrowing system Source: imposes a duty for local authorities to determine and CORE (continuous recording) returns to the Tenant Services Authority (TSA) keep under review the amount they can afford to borrow. from registered social landlords (RSLs). Shared Ownership Schemes: East of England Sustainable Communities Act 2007

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities for Communities and Local Government how many and Local Government what process will apply to his shared ownership purchases have been made by people Department reaching agreement with the Sustainable on social housing waiting lists in (a) Peterborough Communities Act 2007’s selector body once bids have constituency, (b) Peterborough City Council area and been submitted to his Department by the Selector. (c) Cambridgeshire in each year since 2001; and what [302207] proportion of all such sales in each of those areas this represented in each such year. [301995] Ms Rosie Winterton: Under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, before deciding which of the proposals on the John Healey: Information on shared ownership purchases short-list should be implemented, the Government are is not available on a constituency basis. required to consult with the Selector and try to reach The available information for shared ownership sales agreement. In order to effectively implement the Act, in Peterborough unitary authority and Cambridgeshire officials have met with representatives from the Selector is shown in the following tables. The numbers exclude on a number of occasions. These meetings will continue sales by registered social landlords with less than 250 once the short-list has been received. Ministers will also units/bedspaces. Information on whether sales were to engage with members of the Selector Panel in order to people on a housing waiting list is missing in some try to reach agreement before final decisions are made. cases, and was only collected up to 2006-07. The percentage of shared ownership sales to people on waiting lists was Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities not calculated due to missing information. and Local Government what the timetable is for the From April 2006, applicants for grant funded shared second round of bids under the Sustainable Communities ownership properties apply direct to homebuy agents Act 2007. [302220] (appointed housing associations) who carry out eligibility and affordability checks and handle the application process. Ms Rosie Winterton: The Government are committed to the effective implementation of the Sustainable Table 1: Shared ownership completions in Peterborough Communities Act 2007. The first round has generated Of which: 301 proposals that are currently being considered by the Sales to Sales to Sales for which Shared people on people not waiting list Local Government Association as Selector, before being ownership housing on housing information is submitted to the Secretary of State. We intend to review sales waiting lists waiting lists not available the first round of proposals once decisions have been

2001-02 0 0 0 0 taken in order to ensure implementation of the second 2002-03 0 0 0 0 round of proposals is as effective as possible. This will 2003-04 0 0 0 0 allow the second round to benefit from feedback from communities, local authorities, the Selector and the 649W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 650W

Third Sector on how the process might be improved. HEALTH This will ensure that we can be clear from the outset about the way that future proposals will be handled. Blood: Donors

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health and Local Government what the timetable is for (a) if he will review the criteria relating to donation of (a) considering and (b) approving the first round of bids blood and (b) bone marrow for the purposes of under the Sustainable Communities Act 2007. [302285] increasing the number of people eligible to donate. [302036] Ms Rosie Winterton: The Government are currently co-operating with the Local Government Association, Ann Keen: Selection criteria for blood and bone marrow appointed as Selector, as they draw up a short-list of the donors are covered by a European Union directive, proposals from local authorities, under the Sustainable transposed into United Kingdom law as the Blood and Communities Act 2007, which they believe would improve Safety Quality Regulations (2005). Within this framework the sustainability of their local area. I understand the the Joint Professional Advisory Committee of the UK Selector Panel is due to meet on 22 December 2009 and Blood Transfusion services provides detailed advice on is expected to submit the short-list to the Secretary of donor and donation acceptability for the protection of State thereafter. The Secretary of State will then consult both the donor and the recipient patients. the Selector and try to reach agreement on which proposals In addition, the independent Advisory Committee on should be implemented. the Safety of Blood, Tissue and Organs advises the The timing of these decisions will depend on the Government on donor selection. These recommendations number and complexity of the proposals on the short-list. are based on the most up-to-date scientific evidence and kept under review. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities There has not been a shortage of blood in the UK for and Local Government what recent discussions he has many years, and the British Bone Marrow Register had with the Local Government Association in its role strategy for maintaining the registry at 300,000 donors as Selector under the Sustainable Communities Act is readily attainable without any change to current 2007. [303205] donor selection guidelines.

Ms Rosie Winterton: The Government are currently Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Health co-operating with the Local Government Association if he will bring forward proposals for a pilot project for (LGA), in its role as Selector, as the LGA draws up a the registration of stem cell donors (a) up to the age of short-list of the proposals from local authorities, under 60 years and (b) who are blood donors at blood the Sustainable Communities Act 2007, which they centres. [302037] believe would improve the sustainability of their local area. As part of the co-operation process, officials from Ann Keen: The British Bone Marrow Registry recruits the Department for Communities and Local Government donors aged between 18 and 49. All bone marrow and have met with the Local Government Association on a peripheral blood stem cell donors are recruited from number of occasions. blood donors at blood centres. The Government have also shared with the LGA The Department does not intend to bring forward factual information on the proposals, including material any proposals to change current practice. on whether proposals are likely to be already within the existing powers of local authorities; whether proposals Botulinum Toxin are likely to require additional public expenditure; information on the cost-benefit and broad impact of Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Health proposals; and details of existing policy positions for what estimate he has made of the proportion of botox which the Government are publicly accountable. produced in the UK which has been used for (a) These meetings will continue once the short-list has cosmetic and (b) medical procedures. [302661] been received. Ministers will also engage with members of the Selector Panel in order to try to reach agreement Mr. Mike O’Brien [holding answer 30 November 2009]: before final decisions are made. This information is not collected centrally.

Tenant Services Authority: Public Relations Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Health on how many occasions botox has been used in medical Mr. Hurd: To ask the Secretary of State for procedures performed by the NHS in each of the last Communities and Local Government what payments three years. [302666] the Tenant Services Authority has made to APCO since its establishment; for what purposes; and if he will Mr. Mike O’Brien [holding answer 30 November 2009]: place in the Library a copy of each of the contracts The available information is shown in the following under which such payments have been made. [302215] table: Count of Finished Consultant Episode (FCEs) where there was a main John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer or secondary procedure of Torsion dystonias and other involuntary movements drugs Band 1 Activity in English NHS hospitals and my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector (Margaret Beckett) gave to the hon. Member for Meriden FCEs (Thousand) (Mrs. Spelman) on 19 May 2009, Official Report, column 1345W. 2008-09 26.3 651W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 652W

Count of Finished Consultant Episode (FCEs) where there was a main or secondary procedure of Torsion dystonias and other involuntary Total seen movements drugs Band 1 Activity in English NHS hospitals and (where referral Number of English NHS commissioned activity in the independent sector was received patients seen within 24 within 14 Percentage FCEs (Thousand) Period hours) Days performance 2007-08 19.9 Quarter 3 40,417 40,372 99.9 2006-07 12.8 2008-09 Notes: 1. A FCE is defined as a continuous period of admitted patient care From 1 January 2009 onwards the definitions and under one consultant within one health care provider. FCEs are methodology used to calculate these statistics are no counted against the year in which they end. Please note that the longer directly comparable to those used previously. figures do not represent the number of different patients, as a person may have more than one episode of care within the same stay in This change means that the national health service no hospital or in different stays in the same year. longer adjusts these data to separate referrals after 2. The Number of episodes with a (named) main or secondary 24 hours or account for patient choice, where individuals procedure represent the number of episodes where the procedure (or elect to delay their appointment. Statistics for the period intervention) was recorded in any of the 24 (12 from 2002-03 to January 2009 to June 2009 are included in the following 2006-07 and four prior to 2002-03) operative procedure fields in a Hospital Episode Statistics (HES) record. A record is only included table. once in each count, even if the procedure is recorded in more than one operative procedure field of the record. It should be noted that more Number of procedures are carried out than episodes with a main or secondary patients seen Percentage procedure. For example, patients under going a ’cataract operation’ Period Total seen within 14 days performance would tend to have at least two procedures—removal of the faulty lens and the fitting of a new one—counted in a single episode. Quarter 4 41,033 39,214 95.6 Source: 2008-09 Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for Quarter 1 44,749 42,648 95.3 health and social care. 2009-10

Cancer: Health Services Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease

Susan Kramer: To ask the Secretary of State for Richard Burden: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many breast cancer referral patients have Health what plans his Department has for its forthcoming been seen within the two-week waiting time for (a) clinical strategy for chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases. urgent and (b) routine referrals in each of the last [301998] three years. [301709] Ann Keen: The national health service, Department Ann Keen: All patients with suspected breast cancer of Health and key stakeholders have been working should be urgently referred by their general practitioner together over the last three years to develop a comprehensive in line with the referral guidelines published by the strategy for improving services for chronic obstructive National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence. pulmonary disease (COPD) in England, and intend to These patients should not be subject to a routine referral. publish it shortly for public consultation. The following table details the numbers of patients The strategy will demonstrate how we have reviewed covered by this standard and the reported performance the case for change and identified good practice based for the period April 2006 to December 2008. on published evidence, whenever available, in slowing the progression of this long term condition. The strategy Total seen will describe how the Department and NHS can work (where referral Number of together to ensure that the public understand the risks was received patients seen within 24 within 14 Percentage of having poor lung health, and that health care Period hours) Days performance practitioners understand how to secure improvements to the diagnosis and care of people with COPD. We Quarter 1 34,725 34,710 100.0 also want to support people with COPD and their 2006-07 carers by offering practical advice and education on Quarter 2 33,090 33,078 100.0 managing their disease. 2006-07 Quarter 3 36,682 36,669 100.0 Departmental Consultants 2006-07 Quarter 4 34,485 34,471 100.0 2006-07 Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Quarter 1 33,694 33,680 100.0 how many external consultants work for his Department. 2007-08 [303237] Quarter 2 33,213 33,204 100.0 2007-08 Phil Hope: The Department does not collect information Quarter 3 38,197 38,169 99.9 on the numbers of management consultants employed. 2007-08 When commissioning management consultancy services, Quarter 4 37,263 37,200 99.8 it is the Department’s preference to contract for whole 2007-08 pieces of work rather than on a day rate basis. Consequently, Quarter 1 41,424 41,349 99.8 it is left to the respective consultancy organisations to 2008-09 manage the number and level of individual consultants Quarter 2 38,651 38,492 99.6 employed at any one time in order to deliver the required 2008-09 outcomes to the best value. 653W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 654W

Departmental Meetings Addison Lee GDCA Green (£) Cars (£) Mileage Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for Health which (a) individuals other than ministerial 2006-07 306,310 — 113,232 colleagues and officials of his Department and (b) 2007-08 336,934 — 121,327 organisations he met in an official capacity in the week 2008-09 291,985 22,935 120,388 commencing 9 November 2009. [301152] 2009-10 (until 184,539 27,003 79,794 October 2009) 1 Phil Hope: In its response to a Report by the Public Not kept. Administration Select Committee Lobbying: Access and Both contracts were cancelled recently in order to influence in Whitehall, the Government agreed to publish reduce the Department’s carbon footprint and save on-line, on a quarterly basis, information about ministerial money. meetings with outside interest groups. Information for Departmental Temporary Employment the period 1 October to 31 December 2009 will be published by departments as soon as the information is ready. Mr. Djanogly: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the estimated cost to his Department of Departmental Public Expenditure the implementation of the EU Agency Workers Directive is. [303197] Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what the cost to his Department was of provision of Phil Hope: No estimate has yet been made by the office facilities to (a) special advisers and (b) press Department of the cost of implementation of the EU officers in the 2008-09 financial year. [302971] Agency Workers Directive. It is expected that an estimate of these costs will be completed within the next six Phil Hope: It is not possible to calculate the cost of months. the provision of office facilities to special advisers and press officers for the period in question. East of England Strategic Health Authority: Consultants Departmental Railways Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for how much has been spent on (a) management and (b) Health on what date he last travelled by train in the other consultants by (i) Suffolk Primary Care Trust and course of his official duties. [301208] (ii) the East of England Strategic Health Authority in each of the last five years. [302435] Phil Hope: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State last travelled by train on 23 November 2009 in the Phil Hope: This information is not collected centrally. course of his ministerial duties. Strategic health authorities and primary care trusts are responsible for using their resources to plan, commission Departmental Scientists and develop services to meet the health needs of their local community. The hon. Member may therefore wish Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health to raise this issue locally. how many (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil servants in scientific posts there are in his Department. [301924] Genetically Modified Organisms: Research

Phil Hope: Information about the number of scientific Mr. Meacher: To ask the Secretary of State for Health advisers and civil servants in scientific posts is not held what research projects funded by (a) his Department centrally. and (b) the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Departmental Taxis Research Council in the last 10-years on which he relies to fulfil his responsibility to ensure that genetically modified food is safe to eat have been designed specifically Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for to show whether there are risks of adverse health effects Health how many miles (a) Ministers and (b) officials for people for the consumption of genetically modified in his Department travelled by taxi in the course of food. [303374] their official duties in each year since 1997; and at what cost to the public purse in each such year. [302700] Ann Keen: The Food Standards Agency (FSA) has commissioned work under three research programmes Phil Hope: The Department holds information on its relevant to the safety of genetically modified (GM) taxi contract expenditure from 2004-05. We are unable foods. Prior to April 2000 food safety research was the to separate out mileage information between Ministers responsibility of the Ministry of Agriculture Fisheries and officials, as this distinction is not collected. The and Food (MAFF). The research funded by the FSA total expenditure against each contract along with the and MAFF has included a series of projects aimed at associated mileage, where kept, is as follows: either better understanding the consequences of genetic modification, or exploring new/improved methods for Addison Lee GDCA Green use in the safety assessment of GM organisms such as (£) Cars (£) Mileage metabolomics and genomics. Details of the individual 2004-05 423,212 — 1— projects commissioned by MAFF and the FSA are 2005-06 412,695 — 140,233 available on the research pages of the FSA’s website at: 655W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 656W

www.food.gov.uk/science/research/researchinfo/ Lung Cancer foodcomponentsresearch/novelfoodsresearch/ The Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Council has not funded any research during the last Health (1) how much is planned to be spent on the 10-years specifically to show whether there are risks of National Lung Cancer Audit in each of the next three adverse health effects for people from the consumption financial years; [301216] of GM food, but it has funded one project to analyse (2) whether he plans to change methods of collection gene transfer from food plants to human intestinal of National Lung Cancer Audit data. [301217] microflora and intestinal epithelium, which is relevant to the safety assessment of foods obtained from GM Ann Keen: The Healthcare Quality Improvement crops. Partnership manages the contract for the National Lung Cancer Audit which is currently out to tender, and it is Health Professions: Pay for the organisations tendering for the audit to submit their own proposals. The tender process is designed to Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Health ensure that the audit continues to be effective, offers if he will make it his policy to ensure pay parity value for money and has the opportunity to develop between pharmacy contractors and appliance new indicators of quality care. contractors. [303199] Medical Records: Data Protection Mr. Mike O’Brien: Over the last few years, the Department has been carrying out a review of the Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Secretary of State for Health arrangements under Part IX of the Drug Tariff for the when his Department will publish the Report on the provision of appliances—and related services—in primary Summary of Responses to the Consultation on the care. Throughout the review the Department’s key aims Additional Uses of Patient Data; and what the reasons were to: are for the time taken to publish the report. [302187] maintain and, where applicable, improve patient care; ensure equitable payment to dispensing appliance contractors Mr. Mike O’Brien: The report was published on 30 and pharmacy contractors for the provision of equivalent November 2009. Deferment of publication from the services; and originally-planned date has been due to the need for achieve transparency between what is paid for services and extended and detailed analysis of both quantifiable what is reimbursed for items. data and free text responses to ensure the report fairly The new arrangements for the provision of stoma reflects all respondents’ views, and to avoid bias which and urology appliances—and related services—in primary could have arisen because of disproportionate response care were announced by my hon. Friend the Minister of rates from different constituencies. The analysis was State (Phil Hope) in a written ministerial statement on 1 then further reviewed for consistency. April 2009, Official Report, column 67WS and an overview of the new arrangements was placed in the Library. We Medical Research: Expenditure are looking to implement the changes next year. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Influenza Health how much Government funding has been allocated to medical research in each year since 1996-97. [301736] Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health with reference to the written ministerial statement Gillian Merron: Government funding for medical of 24 November 2009, Official Report, columns 57-58WS, research is provided principally through the Department’s on the Departmental Expenditure Account (2008-09), national health service research and development budget which pandemic flu items required the transfer of funds and the Medical Research Council. The amounts allocated from his Department’s capital expenditure limit to its in each year since 1996-97 are shown in the following revenue expenditure limit. [302935] table. Mr. Mike O’Brien: The transfer relates to the utilisation Government health research funding of antiviral drugs, vaccines and other stocks in 2009-10. £ million It does not change the overall level of funding available Medical Research NHS Research and to the Department. Council Development 1996-97 n/a 432 KBR 1997-98 289 426 1998-99 290 420 Sir Menzies Campbell: To ask the Secretary of State 1999-2000 305 434 for Health whether his Department has entered into 2000-01 319 448 any contracts with Kellogg, Brown and Root or its 2001-02 350 475 subsidiaries since January 2009. [303341] 2002-03 372 506 2003-04 430 533 Phil Hope: The Department has no record on its 2004-05 458 601 central finance database of any contracts held with 2005-06 481 617 Kellogg, Brown and Root or its subsidiaries since January 2006-07 504 659 2009. 2007-08 552 730 657W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 658W

Government health research funding The latest RTT data (September 2009) show that 61.7 £ million per cent. of admitted patients, and 72.8 per cent, of Medical Research NHS Research and non-admitted patients received neurosurgery treatment Council Development at Sheffield teaching hospitals within 18-weeks of referral 2008-09 617 792 by their general practitioner. 2009-10 699 862 NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency: Contracts 1 n/a = Not available Mentally Ill: Drugs Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how much his Department expects the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Purchasing and Supply Agency to pay in contract Health (1) what estimate he has made of the cost to the payments to DHL over the contract period. [302524] public purse of prescribing anti-psychotic drugs in each year since 1997; [302897] Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department signed a 10-year (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Master Services Agreement with DHL on 4 September people who have been prescribed anti-psychotic drugs 2006 for the provision of procurement and supply chain in each year since 1997. [302913] services, trading under the name of NHS Supply Chain (NHS SC). Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information on the number of NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency (NHS PASA) patients prescribed a medicine and the condition for paid £17.1 million between 2006-09 to cover the costs which that medicine is prescribed is not collected centrally. and liabilities of employees who transferred from NHS The following table shows the number of prescription PASA to NHS SC under the transfer of undertakings items for anti-psychotic drugs within sections 4.2.1 (protection of employment) regulations. Antipsychotic drugs and 4.2.2 Antipsychotic depot No further contractual payments are anticipated. injections of the British National Formulary, written in the United Kingdom and dispensed in the community, NHS: Disclosure of Information in England with the net ingredient cost (NIC). Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Thousand what steps his Department is taking to (a) strengthen Items dispensed NIC whistleblowing procedures for hospital staff and (b) encourage constructive criticism of working practices 1997 4,423.0 41,005.2 from hospital staff. [301826] 1998 4,714.2 58,745.7 1999 4,925.0 79,592.7 Ann Keen: We expect national health service trusts to 2000 5,159.2 98,419.9 have policies in place that encourage feedback from 2001 4,922.9 130,633.5 staff and pre-empt the need to whistleblow. For those 2002 5,167.0 161,670.2 rare occasions where whistleblowing is the appropriate 2003 5,513.2 191,874.4 course of action, we have provided unprecedented 2004 5,687.8 211,945.5 protection for individuals and we emphasise in the NHS 2005 5,872.9 216,087.8 constitution the right not to be unfairly dismissed for ’whistleblowing’ or reporting wrongdoing. Listening to 2006 6,196.1 240,556.2 and acting upon concerns of staff are vital ways to 2007 6,619.5 264,814.3 drive up standards. 2008 6,989.4 276,982.1 Source: Prescription Cost Analysis (PCA) system. Following the recommendations of the recent House of Commons Select Committee report on Patient Safety, National Centre for Stereotactic Radiosurgery: the Department will be updating and re-issuing guidance Standards to the NHS, working in conjunction with NHS Employers, Public Concern at Work and Trade Unions. Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Secretary of State for The pack is intended to help employers who are in Health what recent assessment his Department has the process of creating or updating their whistleblowing made of the performance of the National Centre of procedures. Stereotactic Radiosurgery in meeting the NHS 18-week pathway target; and if he will make a statement. Nurses [303044] Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what steps his Department is taking to reduce the Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department has not made a number of physical assaults on nurses and other specific assessment regards the National Centre of hospital staff. [301818] Stereotactic Radiosurgery and data on the performance of the National Centre of Stereotactic Radiosurgery Ann Keen: Each national health service body has a are not held centrally. duty to address the risks to staff and ensure their safety. Referral to treatment (RTT) data, which show how The NHS Security Management Service (NHS SMS) trusts are performing against the 18-week operational can assist employers through guidance on assessing standard, are collected at treatment function level and risks and acting to protect staff from assaults and, at provider level. Patients who are treated at the National where incidents do occur, on taking action against Centre of Stereotactic Radiosurgery are recorded under offenders. The Department and the NHS SMS will also the RTT data for Sheffield Teaching Hospitals NHS work with the Social Partnership Forum to promote the Foundation Trust. security of HNS staff and reduce assaults. 659W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 660W

A new offence of causing nuisance or disturbance on decisions about their health and well-being. This should hospital premises and a power to remove someone reduce use of secondary care services, including unplanned suspected of committing this offence were supported by admissions. the Department in the Criminal Justice and Immigration In the National Service Framework for Long Term Act 2008. The purpose of these measures is to remove Neurological Conditions, we had made it clear that those whose actions may escalate into violence and specialist advice and treatment can be cost-neutral and whose behaviour diverts staff from delivering care. may reduce admissions and length of stay and improve Consultation on guidance on the use of the powers well-being. It is for local NHS organisations to implement took place between May and August and the powers this guidance. will be commenced on 30 November 2009. The NHS SMS will provide free training for NHS staff who will Primary Care Trusts: Finance use the power of removal. Andrew George: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Health what timetable he has set for the allocation to what steps his Department is taking to increase the primary care trusts of funding at the level determined number of nurses working in NHS hospitals. [301821] by the formula announced in December 2008. [303422] Mr. Mike O’Brien: We are committed to moving all Ann Keen: It is the responsibility of local national primary care trusts (PCTs) towards their target allocations health service organisations to decide the levels of staffing as quickly as possible. In 2009-10 and 2010-11, we have required to meet the needs of their local population. ensured that the most under-target PCTs benefit from There are currently 89,304 more nurses (including the highest increases in funding. general practitioner practice nurses) working in the Over those two years, revenue allocations represent NHS than in 1997. This represents an increase of 28 per £164 billion investment in the national health service, cent. from 318,856 in 1997 to 408,160 in 2008. £80 billion in 2009-10 and £84 billion in 2010-11. PCTs received an average increase in funding of 5.5 per cent. Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Health in 2009-10 and will receive an average increase in funding what steps he is taking (a) to increase the level of of 5.5 per cent. in 2010-11, a total increase in funding of access to specialist nursing care and (b) reduce £8.6 billion. hospital admission rates. [301822] No decisions have yet been taken on the future rate of progress towards target allocations. The rate at which Ann Keen: Local national health service organisations PCTs will move towards their target allocation in future are responsible for the skill mix of their work force years will need to be considered in light of a number of including the number of specialist nurses. They are best factors including population changes, cost pressures placed to assess the health needs of their local community and the overall resources available to the NHS. and must have the freedom to train and deploy staff in Queen Mary’s Hospital Sidcup: Accident and ways appropriate for local conditions. Emergency Departments To help trusts develop specialist nursing roles we have published “Long Term Neurological Conditions: A good Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for practice guide to the development of the multidisciplinary Health how many people were treated at the accident team and the value of the specialist nurse”. This guide and emergency department at Queen Mary’s Hospital, has been prepared for commissioners and managers to Sidcup, in the last three years for which figures are highlight the role and contribution of specialist nurses. available. [302587] These principles are transferable to other specialities. Copies of this guidance have already been placed in Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not collected on the Library and can be found on the Skills for Health the number of patients treated at accident and emergency website at: (A&E) departments. However, data on the number of www.healthcareworkforce.nhs.uk/resources/latest_resources/ attendances at A&E type 1 departments are available long_term_neurological_conditions.html and published quarterly via the Department of Health’s Quarterly Monitoring Accident and Emergency Services Reducing unplanned and unnecessary hospital dataset. This includes patients who attended A&E but admissions is part of the Department’s strategy to who were not subsequently treated and counts each improve care and services for people with long-term attendance by the same patient separately. conditions. The focus has been on implementing case management for those with complex health and social Smoking care needs who are most at risk of unplanned admissions. This is led by a community matron or other case manager Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Health who provides co-ordinated, proactive and personalised how many people are using NHS services to help them care at home or in the community setting. stop smoking in (a) England, (b) the North East and In addition, the Department has made a commitment (c) Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland that everyone with a long-term condition will be offered constituency. [301754] a care plan by 2010. Personalised care planning and support for self care will enable people with long-term Gillian Merron: The information requested is not conditions to plan their care, have strategies in place to available in the exact format requested. Information on cope with any exacerbations of their conditions, and the number of people using the NHS Stop Smoking have all the relevant information they need to make Services is not available by constituency. 661W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 662W

The number of people using the NHS Stop Smoking Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Young People Services is defined here as the number of people setting a quit date. Information on the number of people setting a quit date in England, by strategic health authority James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for and by primary care trust is available in table 3.8 of the the Home Department (1) how many anti-social “Statistics on NHS Stop Smoking Services: England, behaviour orders were issued to those under the age of April 2008 to March 2009” publication. This publication 18 years and in the care or supervision of local is available on the Information Centre for health and authorities in each of the last five years; [301713] social care website at: (2) how many people under the age of 16 years www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/health-and- received an anti-social behaviour order in each of the lifestyles/nhs-stop-smoking-services/statistics-on-nhs-stop- last five years. [301795] smoking-services:-england-april-2008-to-march-2009 Mr. Alan Campbell: Data on the number of antisocial Tranquilisers: Misuse behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued collected centrally by my Department do not include details of whether or Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for not ASBO recipients were in the care or supervision of Health with reference to the answer of 16 July 2009, a local authority at the time their ASBO was issued. Official Report, column 673W, on tranquilisers, when This information could be ascertained only by reference he expects to publish the results of his Department’s to individual court files, which could be achieved only review of policy on addiction to prescription and over- at disproportionate cost. the-counter drugs. [303557] Available published data on the number of ASBOs issued provides an age group breakdown showing those Ann Keen: The results of the review of policy on ASBO recipients aged 10-17 and those 18 plus. addiction to medicines will be announced after the The number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) completion of the review in 2010. issued to persons under the age of 18 at all courts in England and Wales in each year between 1 January 2003 and 31 December 2007 (latest available) is shown in the following table. HOME DEPARTMENT Number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) issued to persons under 18 years of age1 at all courts2 in England and Wales, 1 January Animal Experiments 2003 to 31 December 2007 England and Wales Issued (aged 10-17)

Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2003 628 Home Department how many animals were used in 2004 1,340 regulated procedures at Wickham Laboratories in 2005 1,581 2008; and how many such procedures were re-uses. 2006 1,053 [302772] 2007 920 1 Where the age has been reported. Meg Hillier: I am unable to disclose the number of 2 This includes magistrates courts when acting both in their civil animals used in regulated procedures at Wickham capacity issuing ASBOs on application and their criminal capacity Laboratories in 2008. when issuing ASBOs following conviction for a criminal offence. Notes: Information on number of animals used in regulated 1. Previously issued data have been revised. procedures relating to individual establishments cannot 2. Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are be disclosed in order to protect statistical confidentiality, accurate and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted from large administrative data systems in line with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care (implementing the Statistics and Registration Act 2007) should be taken to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable and the national statistician’s guidance “Confidentiality limitations are taken into account when those data are used. of Official Statistics”. Source: As reported to the Home Office by the Court Service. Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many regulated procedures James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for were carried out on animals at Wickham Laboratories the Home Department (1) what estimate he has made in 2008; and how many of these involved potency of the number of anti-social behaviour orders issued to testing of botulinum toxin. [302811] those under the age of 16 years which were breached where (a) a parenting order and (b) an individual Meg Hillier: I am unable to disclose how many regulated support order was also issued in the last 12 months; procedures were carried out on animals at Wickham [301798] Laboratories in 2008 and how many of those involved (2) how many and what proportion of anti-social potency testing of botulinum toxin. behaviour orders issued to those under the age of Information on number of regulated procedures relating 17 years in 2008 had an individual support order to individual establishments cannot be disclosed in order attached. [301799] to protect statistical confidentiality, in line with the Code of Practice for Official Statistics (implementing Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested on the Statistics and Registration Act 2007) and the national the number of antisocial behaviour orders (ASBOs) statistician’s guidance “Confidentiality of Official Statistics”. issued to those under the age of 16 years which were 663W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 664W breached where a parenting order and an individual Crimes recorded by the police in which firearms (excluding air support order was also issued is not available. weapons) were fired and the principle victim was a police officer on duty, England and Wales, 2007-08 ASBO breach data compiled by my Department do Number of offences not include details of whether defendants proven in Total resulting Total resulting court to have breached their ASBO were subject to Police force area Total in injury1 in fatal injury either an individual support order or a parenting order. This information could be ascertained only by examination Cumbria — — — of individual court files, which could be achieved only Greater Manchester 2 1 — at disproportionate cost. Lancashire 7 7 — Data on the number of antisocial behaviour orders Merseyside 4 1 — (ASBOs) issued in 2008 are not yet available. Yorkshire and the Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention Humber region Humberside — — — James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for North Yorkshire — — — the Home Department what recent assessment he has South Yorkshire — — — made of the effectiveness of (a) individual support West Yorkshire 1 1 — orders and (b) intervention orders in preventing anti-social behaviour. [301800] East Midlands region Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office has commissioned Derbyshire — — — two pieces of work evaluating interventions to tackle Leicestershire — — — antisocial behaviour. These are: Lincolnshire — — — Research to examine local variations in the use of antisocial Northamptonshire — — — behaviour interventions. This was the first step to developing Nottinghamshire 2 1 — further work into the comparative effectiveness of different approaches to tackling antisocial behaviour. The findings of West Midlands this study are due to be published soon; and region An evaluation of the comparative effectiveness of interventions Staffordshire — — — to address antisocial behaviour. Results from this evaluation Warwickshire 1 1 — are due in spring 2010. West Mercia 2 1 1 Three independent reports have confirmed that our West midlands 4 3 — approach to tackling antisocial behaviour is working. The National Audit Office (NAO) reported that two thirds of people stop committing ASB after one East of England intervention, rising to nine out of 10 after three region interventions. Many of these were warning letters and Bedfordshire — — — antisocial behaviour contracts which are voluntary Cambridgeshire — — — measures. Essex — — — Hertfordshire — — — Assaults on Police Norfolk — — — Suffolk 1 — — Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many police officers were (a) London region 61— shot at, (b) injured by shootings and (c) killed by shootings in each police force area in (i) 2007-08 and South-east region (ii) 2008-09. [302447] Hampshire — — — Kent——— Mr. Hanson: Available information relates to 2007-08 Surrey — — — and is given in the following table. Sussex — — — Data for 2008-09 are scheduled to be published in Thames Valley 2 2 — January 2010. Crimes recorded by the police in which firearms (excluding air South-west region weapons) were fired and the principle victim was a police officer on Avon and Somerset 1 — — duty, England and Wales, 2007-08 Devon and ——— Number of offences Cornwall Total resulting Total resulting Dorset — — — Police force area Total in injury1 in fatal injury Gloucestershire 1 — — North-east region Wiltshire — — — Cleveland — — — Durham — — — Wales Northumbria — — — Dyfed-Powys — — — Gwent——— North-west region North Wales — — — Cheshire — — — South Wales — — — 665W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 666W

Crimes recorded by the police in which firearms (excluding air Table 1: Number of staff convicted of a criminal offence weapons) were fired and the principle victim was a police officer on Number duty, England and Wales, 2007-08 Number of offences 2002 1— Total resulting Total resulting 2003 1— Police force area Total in injury1 in fatal injury 2004 1— 2005 1— 2006 15 England and Wales 34 19 1 2007 9 1 Includes slight, serious (which necessitated detention in hospital or involved fractures, concussion, severe general shock, penetration by 2008 8 a bullet or multiple shot wounds) and fatal injuries. 2009 (to 31 October) 7 Asylum 1 Less than 5. Crime and Disorder Act 1988 Paul Holmes: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will take steps to ensure that those whose claim for asylum is refused but who are James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for unable to return home immediately through no fault of the Home Department how many parenting orders their own are allowed to work in the UK pending their have been issued under section 8 of the Crime and return. [302156] Disorder Act 1998 where (a) an anti-social behaviour order has been made, (b) a child or young person has Mr. Woolas [holding answer 30 November 2009]: It is been convicted of an offence and (c) in any other not the Government’s policy to allow asylum seekers or relevant proceedings in each of the last three years. failed asylum seekers to work. The only exception to [301796] this is asylum seekers who have been waiting 12 months for a decision where this delay cannot be attributed to Mr. Alan Campbell: Parenting Orders under the Crime them. Allowing asylum seekers to work in these and Disorder Act 1998 were piloted between 30 September circumstances is in accordance with the EC Directive 1998 and 31 March 2000 and commenced in England on the reception of asylum seekers. and Wales in June 2000. The Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, the Criminal Justice Act 2003, Police and Justice Where a decision has been made that a person does Act 2005, and the Education and Inspects Act 2006 not require international protection, and there are no amended Parenting Orders to increase their flexibility remaining rights of appeal or obstacles to their return, and widen their availability. we expect unsuccessful asylum seekers to return voluntarily to their country of origin. A generous package of The available information is shown in the following reintegration assistance is available to assist failed asylum table which has been provided by the Youth Justice seekers to return voluntarily to the country of origin. Board based on the parenting orders that youth offending teams were involved in. Closed Circuit Television Parenting Orders by legal basis England and Wales YOTs England and Wales 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 Total Mr. Swayne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to announce the Crime 1,069 1,014 1,049 3,132 conclusion of the review of the recommendations of Education 213 166 230 609 the National CCTV Strategy. [302798] Other — — — 0 Referral Order 183 227 295 705 Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 30 November ASBO 33 64 46 143 2009]: We are aiming to complete the review into the Sex Offences Prevention 0101 recommendations of the National CCTV Strategy by Order spring 2010. Child Safety Order 0 1 0 1 Free Standing—YOT 7 16 8 31 Crime Free Standing—LEA 0 18 21 39 Total — — — 4,661 Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Note: Home Department how many employees of his Data for Education and Free Standing—LEA categories may not be Department and its agencies were convicted of a complete, as YOTs are not always informed of these Parenting criminal offence of each type in each year since 1997. Orders. [302464] Crime: Public Transport Alan Johnson [holding answer 30 November 2009]: We can provide complete information relating to this Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for the question only at a disproportionate cost. However, the Home Department how many arrests for (a) drunk information we do hold is set out in table 1 as follows. and disorderly conduct, (b) assault, (c) battery, (d) Table 1: Number of staff convicted of a criminal offence sexual assault, (e) indecent exposure, (f) theft and (g) Number breach of an anti-social behaviour order there were on (i) trains, (ii) buses and (iii) aeroplanes in each of the 1998 1— last five years in the lowest recorded administrative 1999 1— division for which figures are available, broken down by 2000 0 the (A) age and (B) ethnicity of the person arrested. 2001 1— [302771] 667W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 668W

Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested on Table A: Knife and sharp instrument offences recorded by the police arrests is not collected centrally. for selected violence against the person offences, 2008-09 Number and percentage The arrests collection held by the Home Office covers Total of selected violence against arrests for recorded crime (notifiable offences) only, the person offences (attempted broken down at a main offence group level, covering murder, threats to kill, ABH and categories such as violence against the person, sexual GBH)1, 2 offences, robbery, burglary and drugs offences. The data Offences Police force area, English involving a Percentage are also broken down by age group, gender, ethnicity regions and Wales knife involving a knife and police force area. Cleveland 157 3 It is not possible to identify the number of arrests Durham 121 3 there were made on buses, trains or aeroplanes. Northumbria 335 3 North East Region 613 3

Cheshire 474 7 Crimes of Violence Cumbria 72 2 Greater Manchester 1,244 5 Lancashire 592 5 Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Merseyside 456 6 Home Department how many and what percentage of North West Region 2,838 6 incidents of violence against the person involved a (a) knife, (b) hitting implement, (c) glass or bottle, Humberside 256 3 (d) stabbing implement, (e) firearm, (f) stone or North Yorkshire 175 4 stones, (g) syringe and (h) other implement in each South Yorkshire 397 3 police force area in 2008-09. [302446] West Yorkshire 693 4 Yorkshire and the Humber 1,521 3 Region Mr. Alan Campbell: There are two main sources of crime statistics produced by the Home Office, the British Derbyshire 303 3 Crime Survey (BCS) and police recorded crime. Leicestershire 270 3 The BCS is a victimisation survey in which respondents Lincolnshire 126 3 are asked about their experiences of crime in the last 12 Northamptonshire 224 4 months. Within this survey, respondents are asked about Nottinghamshire 433 4 their experience of the use of weapons in violent incidents. East Midlands Region 1,356 4 Due to the relatively low number of people who experience a violent incident with a weapon, it is not possible to Staffordshire 591 6 provide data at the police force area level. Warwickshire 149 5 It is possible to provide some information from various West Mercia 160 2 police recorded crime data sources, for knife and sharp West Midlands 1,801 6 instruments and firearm offences. West Midlands Region 2,701 5

Knife and sharp instrument offences are collected by Bedfordshire 212 5 the Home Office by a special additional data collection. Cambridgeshire 261 5 These data include offences where a knife or sharp Essex 399 4 instrument has been used to stab or cut, or in a threat. Hertfordshire 60 1 Included within the definition of ‘Sharp instruments’ Norfolk 83 2 are stabbing implements, bottles and glass (when broken Suffolk 151 4 prior to the offence) and syringes. These data are shown in Table A. The offences covered by this collection East of England Region 1,166 4 which fall within the violence against the person category are attempted murder, threats to kill, GBH and ABH. London, City of 19 5 Metropolitan Police 5,242 7 Firearms offences data are also collected at force level London Region 5,261 7 via a special additional data collection. These are shown in Table B. The number of offences covered are greater Hampshire 420 3 than for the knife and sharp instrument collection, Kent 374 3 covering all offences within violence against the person where firearms could conceivable be used. Surrey 101 2 Sussex 534 6 Tables A and B exclude homicide data as the 2008-09 Thames Valley 668 4 data are not yet available. Publication has been pre- South East Region 2,097 4 announced for 21 January 2010. No data from police recorded crime is available for Avon and Somerset 523 5 the other weapons types requested, hitting implements, Devon and Cornwall 299 3 stones or other implement. Dorset 30 1 669W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 670W

Table A: Knife and sharp instrument offences recorded by the police Table B: Firearms offences recorded by the police for violence against for selected violence against the person offences, 2008-09 the person offences, 2008-09 Number and percentage Number and percentage Total of selected violence against Violence against the person the person offences (attempted offences1 murder, threats to kill, ABH and Offences Percentage GBH)1, 2 Police force area, English involving a involving a Offences regions and Wales firearm firearm Police force area, English involving a Percentage regions and Wales knife involving a knife Warwickshire 34 0.6 West Mercia 69 0.5 Gloucestershire 124 3 West Midlands 493 1.0 Wiltshire 138 4 West Midlands Region 646 0.7 South West Region 1,114 3

Bedfordshire 20 0.3 England 18,667 5 Cambridgeshire 21 0.2 Essex 128 0.6 Dyfed-Powys 91 3 Hertfordshire 25 0.2 Gwent 111 2 Norfolk 21 0.2 North Wales 125 3 Suffolk 22 0.2 South Wales 374 4 East of England Region 237 0.3 Wales 701 3 London, City of 2 0.2 British Transport Police 112 4 Metropolitan Police 1,295 0.7 London Region 1,297 0.7 England and Wales 19,480 5 1 Other violence against the person offences exist that are not Hampshire 95 0.3 included in this table that may include the use of a knife or sharp Kent 77 0.3 instrument. In this table ‘offences involving a knife’ refers to the use Surrey 56 0.4 of a knife or sharp instrument. Sussex 29 0.1 2 Homicide data will not be available until January 2010. Thames Valley 102 0.2 Table B: Firearms offences recorded by the police for violence against the person offences, 2008-09 South East Region 359 0.3 Number and percentage Violence against the person Avon and Somerset 107 0.4 offences1 Devon and Cornwall 79 0.4 Offences Percentage Dorset 11 0.1 Police force area, English involving a involving a Gloucestershire 46 0.5 regions and Wales firearm firearm Wiltshire 41 0.5 Cleveland 42 0.4 South West Region 284 0.4 Durham 18 0.2 Northumbria 89 0.5 England 4,584 0.5 North East Region 149 0.4 Dyfed-Powys 16 0.3 Cheshire 42 0.3 Gwent 55 0.6 Cumbria 36 0.5 North Wales 49 0.4 Greater Manchester 440 1.0 South Wales 62 0.3 Lancashire 107 0.5 Wales 182 0.4 Merseyside 178 0.9 North West Region 803 0.7 British Transport Police2 ——

Humberside 54 0.3 England and Wales 4,766 0.5 North Yorkshire 14 0.2 1 Homicide data will not be available until January 2010. South Yorkshire 135 0.7 2 Data are not collected for British Transport Police. West Yorkshire 254 0.7 Crimes of Violence: North East Yorkshire and the Humber 457 0.6 Region Jim Cousins: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many (a) offences involving Derbyshire 77 0.5 violence against the person, (b) violent sexual offences Leicestershire 67 0.4 and (c) offences of robbery with violence there were in Lincolnshire 22 0.2 each basic command unit of the Northumbria police Northamptonshire 74 0.8 force area in each year from 2002-03 to 2008-09. Nottinghamshire 112 0.6 [302535] East Midlands Region 352 0.5 Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is Staffordshire 50 0.3 shown in the following tables. 671W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 672W

Table 1: Violence against the person offences recorded by Northumbria police, by Basic Command Unit1 BCU name 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Gateshead n/a n/a 3,080 2,655 2,961 2,432 2,164 Gateshead East 2,143 2,236 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Gateshead West 1,240 1,062 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle (after April 2004) n/a n/a 5,649 n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle (after April 2005) n/a n/a n/a 5,289 6,019 4,953 4,914 Newcastle Central 1,738 1,804 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle East 1,182 1,166 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle North 1,587 1,733 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle West 1,519 1,439 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Northumberland 624 848 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Tyneside (after April 2004) n/a n/a 2,683 n/a n/a n/a n/a North Tyneside (after April 2005) n/a n/a n/a 2,452 2,917 2,329 2,297 Northumberland (after April 2004) n/a n/a 3,759 3,490 4,149 2,951 3,193 South Tyneside 2,568 2,500 2,252 2,637 2,711 2,289 2,023 South-East Northumberland 2,749 2,809 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a South-West Northumberland 536 462 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sunderland n/a n/a 5,435 5,472 5,492 4,591 4,556 Sunderland City 3,109 2,936 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sunderland West 1,384 1,383 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Tynemouth 1,573 1,378 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Wallsend 1,371 1,443 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Washington 1,848 1,598 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Northumbria total 25,171 24,797 22,858 21,995 24,249 19,545 19,147 n/a = Not available. 1 Basic Command Unit names and areas covered have changed over the seven year period Table 2: Sexual offences recorded by Northumbria police, by Basic Command Unit1 BCU name 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Gateshead n/a n/a 221 197 164 142 126 Gateshead East 105 142 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Gateshead West 96 74 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle (after April 2004) n/a n/a 411 n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle (after April 2005) n/a n/a n/a 354 363 313 207 Newcastle Central 90 84 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle East 105 113 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle North 159 149 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle West 120 114 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Northumberland 40 47 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Tyneside (after April 2004) n/a n/a 156 n/a n/a n/a n/a North Tyneside (after April 2005) n/a n/a n/a 198 151 122 108 Northumberland (after April 2004) n/a n/a 281 256 249 189 189 South Tyneside 155 136 143 127 121 84 127 South-East Northumberland 193 178 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a South-West Northumberland 31 35 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sunderland n/a n/a 305 298 274 227 232 Sunderland City 131 130 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sunderland West 85 85 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Tynemouth 119 117 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Wallsend 103 120 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Washington 124 129 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Northumbria total 1,656 1,653 1,517 1,430 1,322 1,077 989

Table 3: Robbery offences recorded by Northumbria police, by Basic Command Unit1 BCU name 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Gateshead n/a n/a 189 186 159 113 81 Gateshead East 187 172 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Gateshead West 66 55 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle (after April 2004) n/a n/a 373 n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle (after April 2005) n/a n/a n/a 345 406 277 281 Newcastle Central 128 113 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle East 106 69 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle North 101 85 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Newcastle West 143 123 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 673W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 674W

Table 3: Robbery offences recorded by Northumbria police, by Basic Command Unit1 BCU name 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

North Northumberland 2 5 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a North Tyneside (after April 2004) n/a n/a 130 n/a n/a n/a n/a North Tyneside (after April 2005) n/a n/a n/a 133 114 100 91 Northumberland (after April 2004) n/a n/a 63 73 74 72 55 South Tyneside 169 140 109 90 89 65 60 South-East Northumberland 75 56 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a South-West Northumberland 2 6 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sunderland n/a n/a 312 243 213 173 164 Sunderland City 201 158 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Sunderland West 52 35 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Tynemouth 80 75 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Wallsend 60 82 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Washington 70 49 n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Northumbria Total 1,442 1,223 1,176 1,070 1,055 800 732 n/a =Not available. 1 Basic Command Unit names and areas covered have changed over the seven year period.

Departmental Internet suspicions that the children in the family unit are not actually related to the adults as purported. Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for the The instruction is clear about the secure handling of Home Department what the cost was of maintaining samples, and their destruction at the conclusion of the his Department’s website in the 2008-09 financial year; asylum case. and what the forecast cost is of maintaining websites Another related pilot was also started on 14 September within his responsibility in the 2009-10 financial year. relating to the testing of isotope and DNA samples. [302419] This pilot (which was also supported by a publicly available published instruction at the time of Mr. Woolas: The costs of maintaining Home Office commencement) sought to take non-invasive isotope websites (i.e. hosting, licensing, domain registration, and DNA samples and to use matching techniques to and updates but excluding staff costs) has been as provide indications of possible country of origin. follows: The pilot was suspended on 5 October to allow for a 2008-09: £577,000 review of feedback. The projected cost for the financial year 2009-10 is The pilot resumed on 20 November and will be £593,000. Again, this covers hosting, licensing, domain supported by updated instructions reflecting the steps registration, and updates but excludes staff costs. now in place to anonymise data, and addressing issues of sample handling and retention. Deportation: Finance Driving Offences: Insurance Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how much his Department spent on Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the deportations between 1 January and 1 November 2009. Home Department how many (a) convictions, (b) [301235] cautions and (c) issues of fixed penalty notices there were relating to uninsured drivers in each police force Mr. Woolas: The deportation process is integrated area in 2008-09; and what the average penalty upon with the removals process and we are therefore unable conviction was. [302448] to identify a specific unit cost for deportations as distinct from other removal types. The type of costs incurred in Mr. Alan Campbell: Information on fixed penalty deporting a foreign national from the United Kingdom notices for motoring offences issued in 2008 are scheduled are casework, detention, removals and enforcement costs. to be published in March 2010. The Ministry of Justice advises that court proceedings DNA data for 2008 are planned for publication on 28 January 2010. Patrick Mercer: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his Department plans to Entry Clearances: Overseas Students publish the UK Border Agency’s asylum process instruction about storage and retention of DNA and Bill Wiggin: To ask the Secretary of State for the isotope data of asylum seekers. [301018] Home Department how much revenue has been received from student visas in the last (a) year and (b) five Mr. Woolas: Since 14 September an instruction relating years. [301426] to the UK Border Agency’s Familial Relationship Testing pilot has been published, and is available on the UK Mr. Woolas: The information is as follows: Border Agency website. The pilot—which continues to (a) In the last year (12 months ended September 2009), run—involves the voluntary testing of families claiming £51,959,697 has been received from student visa and PBS tier 4 asylum at the Asylum Screening Unit, where there are applications, including those from dependents 675W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 676W

(b) In the last five years (60 months ended September 2009), Firearm offences1 (excluding air weapons) by police force area, £166,833,972 has been received from student visa and PBS tier 4 England and Wales 2007-08 applications, including those from dependents. Recorded crime Total number of offences Fingerprints: Databases Police force area 2007-08

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many people with records on Yorkshire and the Humber Region the national fingerprint database were aged (a) under Humberside 58 10, (b) from 10 to 15, (c) 16 or 17 and (d) 18 or more North Yorkshire 17 years old in each year since 1997. [302365] South Yorkshire 202 West Yorkshire 332 Alan Johnson [holding answer 30 November 2009]: This information could be provided only at disproportionate East Midlands Region cost. Derbyshire 70 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 Leicestershire 134 Lincolnshire 41 Mr. Keetch: To ask the Secretary of State for the Northamptonshire 164 Home Department what guidance his Department has Nottinghamshire 240 issued on the application of section 17 of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997 to the practice of Spitfire West Midlands Region pistol tooling; and if he will make a statement. [303126] Staffordshire 123 Mr. Alan Campbell: Manufacturing equipment, Warwickshire 107 machinery and tools are not covered by the provisions West Mercia 124 of section 17 and the associated compensation scheme. West Midlands 974 Any such items surrendered to the police are ineligible for payment and can be retrieved by their owner. East of England Region Firearms: Crime Bedfordshire 83 Cambridgeshire 30 Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Essex 260 Home Department how many (a) gun crimes and (b) Hertfordshire 112 arrests relating to gun crime there were in (i) England Norfolk 43 and (ii) each police force area in 2008. [302452] Suffolk 38

Mr. Alan Campbell: Available information relates to London Region 3,399 offences in which firearms (excluding air weapons) were reported to have been used during 2007-08, and are shown in the table. Data for 2008-09 are scheduled to be South East Region published on 21 January 2010. Firearms are taken to be Hampshire 100 involved in a crime if they are fired, used as a blunt Kent 82 instrument or used as a threat. Surrey 70 Data on arrests relating to gun crime cannot be Sussex 69 provided since (a) the centrally held Home Office firearm Thames Valley 322 offences database does not record detection or suspect data, and (b) offences involving firearms cannot be South West Region identified on the centrally held Ministry of Justice arrests database. Avon and Somerset 116 Devon and Cornwall 111 Firearm offences1 (excluding air weapons) by police force area, England and Wales 2007-08 Dorset 21 Recorded crime Gloucestershire 43 Total number of offences Wiltshire 49 Police force area 2007-08

North East Region Wales Cleveland 15 Dyfed-Powys 25 Durham 45 Gwent 47 Northumbria 78 North Wales 53 South Wales 84 North West Region Cheshire 59 England total 9,656 Cumbria 18 Greater Manchester 1,160 England and Wales total 9,865 Lancashire 349 1 Firearms are taken to be involved in a crime if they are fired, used as Merseyside 398 a blunt instrument or used as a threat. 677W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 678W

Fires: Atherstone on Stour Defendants cautioned, proceeded against at magistrates courts, found guilty and sentenced to a fine at all courts for offences under the 2004 Hunting Act by police force area, England and Wales 20071, 2, 3, 4, 5 Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Number for the Home Department what discussions he has had Police Proceeded Found Given a with Warwickshire Police Authority on Government force area Cautioned against guilty court fine assistance for funding the police inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the firefighter fatalities at Avon and —222 Atherstone on Stour, Warwickshire on 2 November Somerset 2007; and if he will make a statement. [302496] Cheshire — 1 1 1 Cleveland — 1 1 1 Mr. Hanson: We have regular discussions with Derbyshire — 2 2 2 representatives of Warwickshire police authority. Hampshire — 4 4 — I have provided £3.045 million special grant to Humberside — 8 8 7 Warwickshire police to support this operation. I will Kent2——— also consider further requests from the police authority Lancashire — 2 2 2 under the special grant criteria. Lincolnshire — 7 7 7 Merseyside 3 25 19 17 Human Trafficking North 1——— Yorkshire Northumbria 1 6 — — Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State Suffolk — 2 1 1 for the Home Department what research his Department Thames 1——— has evaluated on any relationship between levels of Valley human trafficking into the UK and economic conditions. North —211 [301224] Wales Mr. Alan Campbell: None. England 8624841 and Wales Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State 1 Only forces with data have been listed in the table. for the Home Department what definition of human 2 The cautions statistics relate to persons for whom these offences trafficking his Department uses; and if he will make a were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a statement. [301265] defendant has been cautioned for two or more offences at the same time the principal offence is the more serious offence. 3 From 1 June 2000 the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 came into force Mr. Alan Campbell: The UK uses the definition of nationally and removed the use of cautions for persons under 18 and trafficking set out in the Palermo Protocol to the 2000 replaced them with reprimands and warnings. These figures have been UN Convention against Transnational Crime (UNTOC), included in the totals. ″Protocol to Prevent, Suppress and Punish Trafficking 4 The court proceedings statistics relate to persons for whom these in Persons, especially Women and Children″ which defines offences were the principal offences for which they were dealt with. When a defendant has been found guilty of two or more offences the human trafficking as: principal offence is the offence for which the heaviest penalty is ″Trafficking in persons shall mean the recruitment, transportation, imposed. Where the same disposal is imposed for two or more transfer, harbouring or receipt of persons, by means of the threat offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory or use of force or other forms of coercion, of abduction, of fraud, maximum penalty is the most severe. of deception, of the abuse of power of a position of vulnerability 5 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate or of the giving or receiving of payments or benefits to achieve and complete. However, it is important to note that these data have the consent of a person having control over another person, for been extracted from large administrative data systems generated by the purpose of exploitation. Exploitation shall include, at a the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken minimum, the exploitation of the prostitution of others or other to ensure data collection processes and their inevitable limitations are forms of sexual exploitation, forced labour or services, slavery or taken into account when those data are used. practices similar to slavery, servitude or the removal of organs.″ Labour Migration Hunting Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what assessment he has Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the made of the factors which affect levels of labour Home Department how many (a) charges, (b) migration. [301400] prosecutions, (c) convictions, (d) cautions and (e) Mr. Woolas: There is a complex range of economic, fines there were for breaches of the Hunting Act 2004 in social and policy factors that will influence levels of each police force area in (i) 2007 and (ii) 2008. [302449] labour migration. The National Institute of Economic and Social Research published the results of research Mr. Alan Campbell: Information provided by the into the economic determinants of migration to the Ministry of Justice, showing the number of defendants UK2003: proceeded against at magistrates’ courts, found guilty at http://www.niesr.ac.uk/pubs/dps/dp216.pdf all courts, given a court fine and cautioned for offences They found that a number of factors influenced legal under the 2004 Hunting Act in England and Wales, migration flows including UK incomes relative to other broken down by police force area for 2007 can be EU countries and to source countries, the existing stock viewed in the table. of immigrants in the UK and UK unemployment. The The Ministry of Justice does not collect charging research does not cover asylum seekers, currently being data centrally. Data for 2008 are planned for publication considered. I refer my hon. Friend to the answer given on 28 January 2010. on 30 November 2009, Official Report, column 486W. 679W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 680W

In addition to economic factors, the points-based Table 1a: Children recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, system, which was rolled out over the course of 2008, is 1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 an important means of controlling migration for the Number purposes of work or study. In response to recent reports Age group Nationality Total from the independent Migration Advisory Committee, Indian 1— we will be adjusting the thresholds that determine the Iraqi 1— points allocated to prospective entrants, and have reviewed the shortage occupation list, to ensure that our policy Polish 3 truly reflects the needs of the United Kingdom. Romanian 1— Sierra Leoneon 1— Missing Persons Sri Lankan 1— Unknown 39 Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home 1 Department how many cases of missing (a) children Vietnamese — and (b) adults of each (i) age group, (ii) nationality and 0-4 Total 71 (iii) region of residence have been recorded by the Missing Persons Bureau of the National Policing 5-8 American 1— Improvement Agency since April 2008. [301254] British 16 Korean 1— Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 26 November 2009]: The HERMES database used for the recording Portuguese 1— of missing persons data is an operational database used Unknown 26 for policing purposes. The data are normally only used 5-8 Total 47 for management information and are not subject to the detailed checks that apply to National Statistics publications. 9-11 American 1— The data are therefore provisional and may be subject Bangladeshi 1— to change. British 11 A code of practice for the collection of missing persons data was introduced in April 2009. Although Bulgarian 1— limited data has been collected as some police forces Czech 1— have implemented the code, it is unlikely that any meaningful Indian 1— and complete national picture of missing persons will Italian 1— be available until 2010, when all police forces will become Nigerian 1— compliant with the code. Meanwhile the available figures can be regarded as indicative only. Sudanese 1— 2,855 adults and 1,862 children were reported as Ugandan 1— missing to the Missing Persons Bureau between 1 April Unknown 33 2008 and 31 October 2009. Note that these figures 9-11 Total 53 relate to incidents of missing rather than individuals; the same person can go missing several times. 3,774 (80 12-14 Afghanistan 5 per cent.) of these cases have subsequently been marked Austrian 1— as ‘closed’ on the database (i.e. the missing person has returned or been located). However, research suggests1 British 138 that 99 per cent. of missing persons are located within Czech 1— one year of going missing. Not all cancellations are French 1— received by the bureau. As force compliance with the Ghanian 1— code increases of the percentage of closed cases on 1 HERMES will increase. Iraqi — Jamaican 1— Data relating to cases of missing (a) children and (b) adults of each (i) age group and (ii) nationality are Kosovan 1— given in the following tables. Data relating to ‘age’ are Moroccan 3 given at the date of extraction from the database. The Nigerian 1— data have been grouped by Association of Chief Police Pakistani 1— Officers region and a total figure has been given for each region. Romanian 3 Turkmenistanian 1— 1 Tarling, R. and Burrows, J. (2004) The nature and outcome of going missing: the challenge of developing effective risk assessment Unknown 166 procedures’, International Journal of Police Science and Management, Vietnamese 3 Vol.6, No. 1, 16-26. 12-14 Total 328 Table 1a: Children recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, 1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 Number 15-17 Afghanistan 104 Age group Nationality Total African 3 Albanian 4 0-4 Afghanistan 1— Argentinian 1— Algerian 8 British 20 American 1— 681W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 682W

Table 1a: Children recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, Table 1b: Children recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, April 2008 to 1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 October 2009 Number Number Age group Nationality Total Age group ACPO 0-4 5-8 9-11 12-14 15-17 0-17 1 Angolan — Region total total total total total total Bangladeshi 1— East 8 3 3 47 138 199 Brazilian 1— Midlands British 505 Eastern 5 3 7 23 93 131 London 7 4 7 11 87 116 Bulgarian 1— North 1— 1— 9 38 87 137 1 Burundian — East Chinese 20 North 17 10 5 28 144 204 West Colombian 1— Scotland 4 1— 1— 1— 2—12 1 Congolese — South 6 6 74 372 458 Czech 1— East South 4 1— 1—195580 Egyptian 1— West Eritrean 11 Wales 1—31—103247 Ethiopian 1— West 11 8 3 43 177 242 Midlands Finnish 1— International 1— 1— 1— 1— 2—7 1 French — Unknown 8 11 7 32 171 229 Ghanian 1— Total 71 47 53 328 1,363 1,862 1 Indian 12 Less than 3. 2 5orless. Indonesian 1— Note: Exact figures in individual cells hidden to protect statistical confidentiality. Age Iranian 3 group is based on age as at 23 November 2009. Iraqi 4 Table 2a: Adults recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, 1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 1 Irish — Number Italian 1— Age group Nationality Total 1— Jamaican 18-21 Afghanistan 35 Kosovan 1— Albanian 1— Kuwaiti 1— Algerian 1— Latvian 1— American 1— Lithuanian 1— British 169 Moldovan 1— Cameroonian 1— Moroccan 3 Chinese 26 1 Nigerian 1— Congolese — Norwegian 1— Czech 3 1 Pakistani 3 Dutch — Eritrean 5 Palestinian 3 Ethiopian 1— Polish 11 French 1— Portuguese 3 Gambian 1— Romanian 5 German 1— Sierra Leoneon 1— Ghanian 1— Somalian 4 Greek 1— South African 1— Hungarian 1— Sudanese 1— Indian 17 Thai 1— Iranian 4 Turkish 1— Iraqi 6 Ukrainian 1— Irish 1— Unknown 552 Ivory Coastian 1— Vietnamese 65 Jamaican 1— Zimbabwean 3 Lithuanian 1— 15-17 Total 1,363 Mauritanian 1— Moldovan 1— 0-17 Total 1,862 Nigerian 9 1 Less than 3. Pakistani 5 Note: Exact figures in individual cells hidden to protect statistical confidentiality. Palestinian 4 683W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 684W

Table 2a: Adults recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, 1 April 2008 to Table 2a: Adults recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, 1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 31 October 2009 Number Number Age group Nationality Total Age group Nationality Total

Polish 3 Italian 1— Portuguese 1— Jamaican 1— Romanian 6 Japanese 1— Sierra Leoneon 1— Kenyan 3 Slovakian 1— Korean 1— Somalian 10 Kosovan 1— Sudanese 1— Laosian 1— Turkish 4 Latvian 1— Ukrainian 1— Lithuanian 6 Unknown 140 Mongolian 1— Vietnamese 12 Moroccan 4 Zambian 1— Nepalese 3 Zimbabwean 1— New Zealander 1— 18-21 Total 490 Nigerian 10 Pakistani 13 22-39 Afghanistan 3 Polish 28 1 African — Portuguese 9 Albanian 6 Romanian 17 1 Algerian — Russian 6 1 American — Samoan 1— 1 Angolan — Saudi Arabian 1— 1 Antiguan — Sierra Leoneon 1— 1 Argentinian — Slovakian 4 Australian 3 Somalian 14 Bangladeshi 3 South African 4 British 534 Sri Lankan 3 1 Burmese — Sudanese 1— Cameroonian 3 Swedish 3 1 Canadian — Tanzanian 1— Chinese 13 Thai 1— 1 Colombian — Turkish 5 Congolese 3 Turkmenistanian 1— 1 Czech — Ugandan 1— 1 Danish — Ukrainian 4 Dutch 4 Unknown 371 1 Egyptian — Vietnamese 3 1 Eritrean — Yugoslavian 1— Ethiopian 3 Zimbabwean 8 1 Fijian — 22-39 Total 1,207 Filipino 8

French 8 40-59 Albanian 1— Gambian 4 Algerian 1— German 1— Australian 1— Ghanian 3 Belgian 1— Greek 3 British 452 Hong Kongelease 1— Bulgarian 1— Hungarian 1— Chinese 3 Indian 19 Congolese 1— Indonesian 1— Czech 1— Iranian 1— Dutch 1— Iraqi 8 Ecuadorian 1— Irish 8 Egyptian 1— 685W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 686W

Table 2a: Adults recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, 1 April 2008 to Table 2a: Adults recorded as missing by Missing Persons Bureau, 1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 31 October 2009 Number Number Age group Nationality Total Age group Nationality Total

Ethiopian 1— 80+ British 25 1 Filipino 1— Cypriot — 1 French 3 Indian — 1 Gambian 1— Italian — 1 German 1— Jamaican — 1 Hungarian 1— Korean — 1 Indian 8 Lithuanian — 1 Indonesian 1— Nigerian — Irish 9 Unknown 17 Italian 4 80+ Total 50 Jamaican 1— Korean 1— 18-80+ Total 2,855 1 Latvian 3 Less than 3. Note: Lithuanian 1— Exact figures in individual cells hidden to protect statistical confidentiality. Maltese 1— Table 2b: Adults recorded as missing by Missing Persons B,1 April 2008 to 31 October 2009 1 Nigerian — Number Pakistani 8 Age group Polish 15 ACPO 18-21 22-39 40-59 60-79 80+ 18-80+ Region total total total total total total Romanian 1— Serbian 1— East Midlands 48 131 73 16 5 273 Eastern 33 99 75 16 4 227 Somalian 7 Guernsey/ 1— 1— 1— 1— 1—3 South African 3 IOM3/Jersey Sri Lankan 1— London 50 172 65 25 7 319 North East 17 62 73 13 5 170 Tobagan 1— North West 75 184 106 30 4 399 Tunisian 1— Scotland 10 46 32 10 6 104 1 Turkish — South East 131 165 167 43 7 513 Ugandan 3 South West 15 62 55 20 5 157 1 2 Unknown 325 Wales —23227—57 West Midlands 44 124 93 25 2 288 Vietnamese 1— International 6 8 9 2— 1—26 Zairian 1— Unknown 58 131 107 20 3 319 40-59 Total 880 Total 490 1,207 880 228 50 2,855 1 5orless. 2 Less than 3. 1 60-79 Afghanistan — 3 Isle of Man. Australian 1— Note: Exact figures in individual cells hidden to protect statistical confidentiality age 1 Barbadian — group is based on age as at 23 November 2009. British 112

1 Chilean — Police: Bedfordshire German 1— Ghanian 1— Indian 1— Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many attacks on police officers Irish 7 there have been in Mid Bedfordshire constituency in Italian 3 each of the last five years. [302921] Nigerian 1—

1 Pakistani — Mr. Hanson: Data on assaults are not collected centrally Polish 1— by constituency. Data for the numbers of assaults on Portuguese 1— police officers in Bedfordshire for 2004-05 to 2008-09 Romanian 1— are given in the following table. 1,2,3,4 Somalian 1— Assaults on police officers in Bedfordshire, 2004-05 to 2008-09 Assaults (headcount) Sri Lankan 1— Unknown 88 2008-09 94 2007-08 106 60-79 Total 228 2006-07 124 2005-06 101 687W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 688W

Assaults on police officers in Bedfordshire, 2004-05 to 2008-091,2,3,4 Mr. Alan Campbell: The Government, when meeting Assaults (headcount) with individuals and groups who have been targeted by 2004-054 102 acts of extremism, will routinely advise them to report 1 Financial year runs 1 April to 31 March inclusive. any crime to their local force. 2 Data are provisional. The Government are also spreading best practice on 3 Data are collected by the Home Office on behalf of HMIC. From 2005-06, assaults data were no longer published in the HMIC Annual Report. Current encouraging third-party reporting schemes where people arrangements for the publication of these data are that they will be released as are not confident enough or prepared to approach the supplementary datasets to the HMIC Annual Report by Home Office Statistics. police directly. This will contribute to achieving our 4 Data for 2004-05 have been revised since being published in the HMIC Annual Report, when it was stated that the figures were being reviewed in the light of objective of increasing the proportion of hate crime possible changes in recording practice. Source data were previously populated victims who report its occurrence. from the crime recording system, but this was changed to populate source data from the self-reported HR system. David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for the Police: Databases Home Department (1) whether his Department plans to create a legal definition of the term domestic extremism for use by the police; [302128] David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for the (2) whether his Department plans to issue guidance Home Department what guidance his Department has to police forces on the definition and use of the term issued to police forces on the long-term retention of domestic extremism. [302129] images on public order databases following the Court of Appeal ruling in the case of Wood v Commissioner Mr. Hanson: The Government have no plans to create of Police for the Metropolis [2008] EWHC 1105. a legal definition of domestic extremism. The website of [302086] the National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination Unit already sets out guidance on the definition and use of Mr. Hanson: The Home Office has not issued guidance domestic extremism, which is a term used to describe to police forces on retention of images following the criminal acts in furtherance of a campaign. Court of Appeal ruling in the case of Wood v. The Association of Chief Police Officers is currently Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis. updating public order guidance and training, and the The Home Office is working closely with ACPO on Government will work with ACPO to ensure that revised the implications of the judgment for all forces and we guidance and training is clear on the use of the term will be acting on the recommendation in Part 2 of the domestic extremism. HMIC review, Adapting to Protest, published on 25 November to clarify the legal framework for the use of Roads: Accidents overt photography by police during public order operations. Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Police: Road Traffic Control the Home Department (1) how much (a) time and (b) money was spent by police forces in (i) England and (ii) Wales in dealing with accidents involving drivers who Mr. Ruffley: To ask the Secretary of State for the qualified less than a year prior to the accident in the Home Department what percentage of police funding last 12 month period for which figures are available; for 2008-09 has been allocated to traffic policing in [302511] each police force area in England and Wales; how many dedicated traffic police officers there were (a) in (2) how much (a) time and (b) money was spent by 2008 and (b) on the latest date for which information is police forces in (i) England and (ii) Wales in dealing available; and what percentage of the overall number of with accidents involving drivers under 20 years old in police officers these figures represent in each case. the last 12 month period for which figures are available. [302453] [302512] Mr. Hanson: The information requested is not held Mr. Hanson: The Government allocate funding to centrally. police authorities in the round. The allocation of resources to traffic policing is a matter for the chief constable and Serious Organised Crime Agency police authority, who are responsible for assessing local needs. Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the There were 6,299 full-time equivalent police officers Home Department how many investigations have been whose primary role or function was listed as “traffic” as referred to the Serious Organised Crime Agency by (a) at 31 March 2008 in the 43 forces of England and regional police forces, (b) officials of his Department, Wales, representing 4.4 per cent. of police officers. (c) UK Border Agency officials and (d) HM Revenue As at 31 March 2009 this number fell to 5,992, and Customs officials in (i) 2009 and (ii) each of the representing 4.2 per cent. of the overall total. last three years. [301303]

Radicalism Mr. Alan Campbell: The majority of SOCA’s operational activity falls within the scope of the United Kingdom Organised Crime Control Strategy, and is initiated, Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State planned and executed in collaboration with one or more for the Home Department what steps his Department partner agencies, including other law enforcement agencies is taking to encourage those affected by acts of from the UK and overseas. In addition to this work extremism to report such events to the police. [300481] within the Control Strategy, SOCA provides a range of 689W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 690W support activities for partners, principally UK law Mr. Alan Campbell: The recently published strategy enforcement agencies. There is, therefore, no single referral entitled “Together We Can End Violence Against Women and adoption system. and Girls” sets out the Government’s commitment to SOCA’s operational contribution to the UK Control have a SARC operational in every police force area by Strategy in the three financial years since it was formed April 2011. has been: James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for Operations and projects the Home Department what qualitative and quantitative data on people referred to sexual assault 2006-07 404 referral centres such centres are required to report to 2007-08 459 his Department. [301790] 2008-09 556 This work, covering the range of threats outlined in Mr. Alan Campbell: SARCs are not required to report the United Kingdom Threat Assessment of Organised data to the Home Office on victims referred to SARCs. Crime, is normally multi-faceted and involves concurrent However, as set out in the Violence Against Women and activity by SOCA and partners, across the UK and Girls Strategy published on 25 November, accurate and internationally, aimed at a range of outcomes, including comparable data are essential to enable local areas to but not confined to, criminal justice disposals. plan, implement and monitor services for victims of Violence Against Women and Girls. As such, SARCs Under arrangements agreed between HM Revenue should seek to share appropriate data with local partners and Customs and the Serious Organised Crime Agency as necessary to inform assessments of service need. The (SOCA), HM Revenue and Customs notify SOCA of recently published “A Resource for Developing Sexual seizures made at ports that meet specific criteria. SOCA Assault Referral Centres” sets out appropriate data undertakes systematic checks on every notification, but collection procedures for SARCs. investigates only where the size of the seizure, significance of the criminals involved and operational opportunities Sexual Offences: Alcoholic Drinks presented are assessed as appropriate for further effective action, in line with the priorities of the UK Organised James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State Crime Control Strategy. The number of notifications for the Home Department what information his over the last three years has been: Department holds on the number of victims of sexual violence referred to sexual assault referral centres who As at 31 August each year Number were intoxicated by alcohol at the time of the alleged 2009 105 assault in the last 12 months. [301811] 2008 99 2007 74 Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not available. Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Terrorism Home Department what steps the Serious Organised Crime Agency is taking to disrupt the smuggling of guns into the UK. [301304] David Howarth: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department by what mechanisms the (a) Mr. Alan Campbell: SOCA’s operational activity focusing National Public Order Intelligence Unit, (b) National on the threat from firearms falls under the UK Organised Extremism Tactical Co-ordination Unit and (c) Crime Control Strategy, and in particular the firearms National Domestic Extremism Team are accountable; programme of activity. This multi-agency firearms and if he will make a statement. [300231] programme, which is led by ACPO, aims to reduce the possession and use of firearms by organised criminals, Mr. Hanson: The National Public Order Intelligence and by street gangs involved in the drugs trade. This Unit, the National Extremism Tactical Co-ordination includes SOCA operational activity in collaboration Unit and the National Domestic Extremism Team report with law enforcement partners in the UK and overseas to the ACPO National Coordinator for Domestic targeting the importation to the UK (by fast parcels, Extremism, who is in turn accountable to the ACPO internet purchases and conventional smuggling means) Committee for Terrorism and Allied Matters. The accounts and distribution of illegal firearms and component of ACPO, as a registered company, are subject to audit. parts. Following the publication on 25 November 2009 of SOCA currently leads 11 operations, eight projects the report by Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of and 11 single strand inquiries under the firearms Constabulary, Adapting to Protest, the Government programme. SOCA also regularly shares intelligence will act on the report’s recommendations to review the reporting on firearms, including on smuggling governance and accountability structures of the national methodologies, with those in law enforcement and domestic extremism units to ensure they are sufficiently Government in a position to use the information to take transparent and clear. action against criminal problems. Sexual Assault Referral Centres Victim Support Schemes

James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department how many new Sexual Assault the Home Department by what performance measures Referral Centres he expects to be opened in the period the effectiveness of (a) each independent sexual to April 2011. [301805] violence adviser, (b) each sexual assault referral centre 691W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 692W and (c) the Sexual Violence National Support Team offer specific services for young people. This includes will be assessed; and if he will make a statement. some SARCs who have a dedicated young persons [301807] Independent Sexual Violence Adviser (ISVA). We are encouraging all SARCs to ensure that they are able to Mr. Alan Campbell: Individual Independent Sexual offer the full range of quality services to children and Violence Advisors (ISVAs) are not currently assessed by young people. The Home Office has provided capital the Home Office. However, ‘Rape: the Victim Experience and resource funding to expand the number and quality Review’, published on 25 November by Sara Payne and of SARCs since 2003-04. informing the development of the Violence Against The Home Office has also provided just over £3 million Women and Girls Strategy, highlights the important to support ISVAssince they were piloted in 2006. ISVAs role of ISVAs in providing support to victims of sexual provide independent support and advocacy to victims violence. The Review recommended that ISVAs should of sexual violence and abuse throughout and beyond be professionally trained and accredited to put them on the criminal justice process. There are a number of a par with other professional roles. As a result, we have ISVAs who work specifically with children and young committed to providing centrally funded and properly people who have experienced sexual violence. accredited training for ISVAs, including CPD, networking and best practice support. Victim Support Schemes: Finance Each Sexual Assault Referral Centre is assessed against performance measures which are based on local James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for commissioning and service specifications. There is not a the Home Department what funding his Department single national set of performance measures, although (a) made available in 2009-10 and (b) plans to make the recently published ‘A Resource for Sexual Assault available in 2010-11 to support (i) independent sexual Referral Centres’ sets out minimum elements that providers violence advisers and (ii) independent domestic are expected to adopt. violence advisers; and if he will make a statement. The Response to Sexual Violence National Support [301802] Team offers free consultancy style tailored improvement support to all police forces and their local area partners Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office made £860,000 across England and Wales providing them with the available to support the expansion of ISVAs in 2009-10 tools, techniques and information required to enable and expects to do so in 2010-11. The Home Office also them to set up Sexual Assault Referral Centres (SARC) allocated £3.5 million in 2009-10 and expects to do so in to the standard set out in the national service guidelines 2010-11 to the regional Government offices to contribute published in October 2009. The value and impact of the to funding of both IDVAs and multi agency risk assessment team to local areas will be evaluated in 2010-11 as part conferences. of a wider evaluation of the NST programme. James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what funding his Department the Home Department how many victims of sexual expects to provide to support the operation of existing violence have been referred to each Sexual Assault sexual assault referral centres in 2010-11. [301803] Referral Centre for (a) examination and (b) support in the last 12 months. [301808] Mr. Alan Campbell: The recently published strategy entitled “Together We Can End Violence Against Women Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not and Girls” sets out the Government’s commitment to available. double central investment in Sexual Assault Referral Centres (SARCs) in 2010-11 making £3.2 million of James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for funding available. We expect the majority of this funding the Home Department what his latest estimate is of the to be used to support existing SARCs. proportion of referrals to a Sexual Assault Referral Centre for (a) examination and (b) support which James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for have resulted in criminal charges. [301809] the Home Department how much funding his Department (a) has provided in the last 12 months Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is not and (b) intends to provide in the next 12 months for available. the establishment and operation of the Sexual Violence National Support Team. [301806] James Brokenshire: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what support his Department Mr. Alan Campbell: The Department of Health provided makes available to post-pubertal adolescent victims £0.7 million to fund the National Support Team on reporting sexual violence within a week of an alleged Response to Sexual Violence in 2009-10 and has committed assault. [301810] a further £0.7 million for 2010-11.

Mr. Alan Campbell: Sexual Assault Referral Centres Yvonne Fletcher (SARCs) are one-stop locations where victims of recent sexual assault can receive medical care and counselling Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for quickly and empathetically, and which allow for the the Home Department what information his Department collection of forensic evidence for potential prosecutions. has obtained from the Metropolitan Police on the name Young people can access the full range of examination of the principal suspect in the case of the shooting of and support services from the majority of SARCs which WPC Yvonne Fletcher. [302204] 693W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 694W

Mr. Hanson: The investigation into the murder of Angela E. Smith: I refer the hon. Member to the WPC Yvonne Fletcher, as with the investigation of any answer I gave on 19 October 2009, Official Report, crime in the UK, is an operational matter for the police. columns 1290-92W. It is not for the Home Office to intervene in particular Charity Commission: Public Relations criminal investigations. Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what payments the Charity Commission has made to CABINET OFFICE Mandate Communications/AS Biss in the last 12 months; at what cost; for what purposes; and if she will place in the Library a copy of each of the contracts Caparo Group under which such payments have been made. [302211]

Mr. Graham Stuart: To ask the Minister for the Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Cabinet Office whether her Department holds contracts within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I with each company of the Caparo Group. [303108] have asked the Commission to reply. Letter from Andrew Hind, dated 26 November 2009: Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office does not currently hold any contracts with the Caparo Group. As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have been asked to respond to your written Parliamentary Question (302211) on what payments the Charity Commission has made to Charities: Fundraising Mandate Communications/AS Biss in the last 12 months; at what cost; for what purpose; and whether we can place in the Library a copy of the contracts under which such payments have been Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister for the made. Cabinet Office how many charities were found to be We made no payments to Mandate between 24 November 2008 raising money for a purpose outside their charitable and 24 November 2009. However, in September 2008 we made a objectives in the last 12 months for which figures are payment of £4,406.25 to them for the purpose of providing available. [302141] training. It is not appropriate to place a copy of the relevant contract in the Library of the House, for reasons of commercial Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls confidentiality. within the responsibility of the Charity Commission. I I hope this is helpful. have asked the commission to reply. Childbirth: Poverty Letter from Andrew Hind, dated 26 November 2009: As the Chief Executive of the Charity Commission, I have Dr. Kumar: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office been asked to respond to your written Parliamentary Question (302141) on how many charities were found to be raising money what estimate has been made of the number of people for a purpose outside their charitable objectives in the last 12 who were born into poverty in (a) the UK, (b) England, months for which figures are available. (c) the North East and (d) Middlesbrough South and Your question is very broad and covers a number of potential East Cleveland constituency in each year since 1997. situations. Therefore it is difficult to answer comprehensively. [301817] However we have analysed the information we hold on closed cases in our compliance function (which deals with the most Helen Goodman: I have been asked to reply. serious concerns about charities), and found that between 26 November 2008 and 25 November 2009 there were 33 cases which Information on the number of children born into involved charities acting outside their objects or misapplying families in relative poverty is not available for any charitable funds. I should stress that this figure excludes any cases period. which remain ongoing, or instances which have not merited our This is because the main source of income data, the regulatory action but have been dealt with through giving advice Family Resources Survey, is a snap-shot survey, capturing and guidance to the charity concerned to ensure this does not a household’s situation at the time of interview. This happen again. means that the sample size for households with very We recently published a report, Back on Track, on the work of young children will be small. It may also be the case that our Compliance function over the last financial year, and this gives a breakdown of all investigations closed during 2008-09 by the response rate from families with very young children the issues involved. A copy has been placed in the Library of the will be lower than usual and therefore may not be House. representative. I hope this is helpful and would very happy to discuss this issue Departmental Internet further with you. Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Charity Commission how many (a) page hits and (b) visitors her Department’s website received in 2008-09. [301858] Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) how much was paid in (a) expenses, (b) monies to Angela E. Smith: During April 2008 through to March compensate for tax liability and (c) other remuneration 2009 the Cabinet Office website, www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk, paid to each commissioner of the Charity Commission has received 11,760,880 page views and 1,144,236 unique in the last year for which information is available; visitors. [301627] (2) what declarations of political activity have been Mr. Heald: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office made by each (a) commissioner and (b) executive (1) what the cost was of maintaining her Department’s director of the Charity Commission. [301626] website in the 2008-09 financial year; and what the 695W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 696W forecast cost is of maintaining websites within the No Cabinet Office staff have been reprimanded, dismissed Cabinet Office’s responsibility in the 2009-10 financial or prosecuted for theft of property during the last three year; [302410] years. (2) what the cost was of maintaining (a) the Cabinet Driving Office and (b) the No. 10 website in the 2008-09 financial year; and what the forecast cost is of maintaining that website in the 2009-10 financial year. Dr. Ladyman: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet [302421] Office what mechanisms are in place to ensure that staff who drive (a) a vehicle for which (i) her Department Tessa Jowell: It is not possible to provide a single and (ii) its executive agency is responsible have valid figure for the running costs of the Cabinet Office website driving licences and (b) their own vehicles in the as they are contained within the overall costs of the course of their official duties for (A) her Department Cabinet Office e-media team, which is also responsible and (B) its executive agency have valid driving licences for all forms of digital communication. It should be and insurance; what guidance is issued to those staff in noted that Cabinet Office do not supply forecast figures, respect of road safety while carrying out official duties; only audited figures. what steps are taken to monitor compliance with that guidance; what requirements there are on such staff to I refer the hon. Member to the answer given to him report to their line managers accidents in which they by the Prime Minister on 26 November 2008, Official are involved while driving in the course of their official Report, column 1482W, which explained that as a result duties; and whether such reports are investigated. of accounting changes it is not possible to provide a [302177] single comparable figure for the running costs of the No. 10 website. Angela E. Smith: The Cabinet Office owns one minibus that is used by the Emergency Planning College. The Departmental Scientists licenses of staff are visually inspected by the trainer prior to attending the driving training course specific to Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet this vehicle. Office how many (a) scientific advisers and (b) civil Staff are trusted to give accurate information. Equally servants in scientific posts there are in her Department. staff are trusted to notify the Department should their [301929] circumstances change. Angela E. Smith: Cabinet Office does not have any Cabinet Office does not check employees driving posts designated as “scientific advisors” or scientific licenses prior to the use of private vehicles for official posts. However, there are a range of posts across the journeys. Cabinet Office guidance states that if a member Department that require scientific knowledge or experience, of staff uses their own vehicle for official travel they are depending on the nature of the role. responsible for ensuring the following insurance cover obtained at their own expense: Departmental Taxis Business cover insurance in addition to fully comprehensive insurance for the vehicle. Either fully comprehensive insurance and business cover or Norman Baker: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet third party insurance and business cover for any motor cycle. Office how many miles (a) Ministers and (b) officials in her Department travelled by taxi in the course of Cabinet Office has limited requirement for car hire. their official duties in each year since 1997; and at what Provision of car hire services are contracted via our cost to the public purse in each such year. [302698] supplier Arval, which is responsible for checking that drivers are suitably qualified, which is further endorsed Angela E. Smith: Management information provided by in-house authorisation documents that state drivers by the Cabinet Office’s taxi contract has been collected must be qualified. since 2007-08; this information is available in the Cabinet The Cabinet Office does not specifically advise staff Office’s Annual Report and Accounts 2008-09, copies on road safety if not using the Cabinet Office vehicle of which have been placed in the Library and are (minibus for which specific training is given). available from the Department’s website. It is not possible The Cabinet Office would be informed by both the to provide figures prior to this period without incurring contractor and the person(s) involved should an accident disproportionate cost, nor is it possible to distinguish occur. between journeys made by Ministers and officials without There is no specific guidance should an accident incurring a disproportionate cost. occur in a member of staff’s own vehicle. Departmental Theft Employment

Grant Shapps: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Mr. Clappison: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many staff of the Prime Minister’s Office Office how many (a) UK nationals, (b) UK born have (a) been reprimanded, (b) had their contract of people, (c) non-UK EU nationals and (d) non-EU employment terminated and (c) been prosecuted for nationals of working age were in employment in the theft of departmental property in each of the last three (i) public and (ii) private sector in each of the last eight years. [302934] quarters for which figures are available; what proportion of the number of people employed in each Angela E. Smith: The Prime Minister’s Office is part sector the figures in each such category represent; and of the Cabinet Office. what the equivalent figures were in 1987. [300823] 697W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 698W

Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls In the LFS the distinction between public and private sector is within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. based on respondents’ views about the organisation for which I have asked the Authority to reply. they work. The public sector estimates provided do not correspond to official Public Sector Employment estimates. Those are derived Letter from Jil Matheson, dated November 2009: directly from employers and are based on National Accounts As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your definitions, but do not include a nationality breakdown. Parliamentary Question asking how many (a) UK nationals, (b) UK-born people, (c) non-UK EU nationals and (d) non-KU As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject nationals of working age were in employment in the (i) public and to a margin of uncertainty. This is assessed in a footnote to the (ii) private sector in each of the last eight quarters for which table. figures are available; what proportion of the number of people employed in each sector the figures in each such category represent; The figures in the table are derived from the LFS microdata and what the equivalent figures were in 1987. (300823) which are weighted using the official population estimates published The available information is shown in the attached tables. The in autumn 2007. They are not entirely consistent with the figures estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey (LFS). published in the monthly Labour Market Statistical Bulletin, Estimates for 1987 are not available. The earliest available estimates which are weighted using more up-to-date population estimates. on a comparable basis are for 1995 and these have therefore been included.

Part 1: Employment levels for people of working age1 in employment by public and private sector and by nationality and country of birth Three months ending September 1995 and three months ending March, June, September and December, 2007 to 2009 United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted

Thousand

Public sector2,3 Private sector2,4 Total employment4,5

Non-UK Non-UK Non-UK UK UK EU Non-EU UK UK EU Non-EU UK UK EU Non-EU nationals born nationals6 nationals6 nationals born nationals6 nationals6 nationals born nationals6 nationals6

1995 5,729 5,493 86 116 18,451 17,783 292 345 24,357 23,444 381 467 Q3

2007 6,305 5,979 148 218 19,618 18,617 859 936 26,050 24,718 1,010 1,163 Q4

2008 6,299 5,970 136 249 19,447 18,457 928 928 25,870 24,547 1,068 1,186 Q1

2008 6,349 6,025 138 236 19,404 18,388 917 955 25,882 24,532 1,065 1,201 Q2

2008 6,293 5,973 134 238 19,513 18,493 906 988 25,928 24,580 1,045 1,234 Q3

2008 6,387 6,052 124 266 19,245 18,206 923 1,015 25,749 24,372 1,052 1,290 Q4

2009 6,443 6,109 113 268 18,891 17,842 979 940 25,454 24,067 1,097 1,215 Q1

2009Q2 5,444 6,124 125 263 18,658 17,639 949 917 25,227 23,881 1,078 1,190

2009 *6,514 *6,192 ***130 **247 *18,775 *17,771 *922 *912 *25,416 *24,082 *1,060 1,168 Q37

Part 2: Working age employment in public and private sector by nationality and country of birth, as a proportion of the total working age employment in each sector. Three months ending September 1395 and three months ending March, June, September and December, 2007 to 2003 United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Percentage Public sector2,3 Private sector2,4 Total employment4,5 Non-UK Non-UK Non-UK UK UK EU Non-EU UK UK EU Non-EU UK UK EU Non-EU nationals born nationals6 nationals6 nationals born nationals6 nationals6 nationals born nationals6 nationals6

1995 97 93 1 2 97 93 2 2 97 93 2 2 Q3 2007 95 90 2 3 92 87 4 4 92 88 4 4 Q4 2008 94 88 2 4 91 87 4 4 92 87 4 4 Q1 2008 94 90 2 4 91 86 4 5 92 87 4 4 Q2 2008 94 90 2 4 91 86 4 5 92 87 4 4 Q3 2008 94 89 2 4 91 86 4 5 92 87 4 5 Q4 2009 94 90 2 4 91 86 5 5 92 87 4 4 Q1 2009 94 90 2 4 91 86 5 5 92 87 4 4 Q2 2009 95 90 2 4 91 86 5 4 92 87 4 4 Q3 699W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 700W

1 Men aged 16-64 and woman aged 16-19. 2 It should be noted that public and private sector estimates - are based on survey respondents’ views about the organisation for which they work. - do not correspond to the national Accounts definition used for public Sector Employment estimates. 3 Includes nationalised industry or state corporation, central government, civil service, local government or council (incl. police, fire services and local authority controlled schools or colleges), university or other grant funded educational establishments, health authority or NHS trust and armed forces 4 Includes self employed and unpaid family workers 5 Includes those whose type of employer was not known 6 Non-UK EU comprises Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Sweden only in 1995 Q3. Meaningful comparisons between 1995 Q3 and 2009 Q3 are not possible due to the changes in the composition of the EU. 7 Coefficients of Variation have been calculated for the latest period of the quality of the estimates, as described below. Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5 per cent. we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220 Key Statistical Robustness * Estimates are considered precise ** Estimates are considered reasonably precise *** Estimates are considered acceptable **** Estimates are considered too unreliable for practical purposes Source: Annual Population Survey and Annual Labour Force Survey

Foreign Workers As with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject to a margin of uncertainty. This is assessed in a footnote to the tables. Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office (1) in which 10 employment sectors The figures in the table are derived from the LFS microdata which are weighted using the official population estimates published there is the highest proportion of migrant workers; in autumn 2007. They are not entirely consistent with the figures [300559] published in the monthly Labour Market Statistics Statistical (2) what estimate she has made of the number of Bulletin which are weighted using more up-to-date population migrant workers in each employment sector in each estimates. year since 2002. [300560] Table 1: Proportion1 of non UK born workers aged 16 and over by industry2, three months ending September 2009, United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Industry sector Percentage Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Agriculture, Fishing, Energy and 6 I have asked the Authority to reply. Water Manufacturing 11 Letter from Jil Matheson, dated November 2009: Construction 9 As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your Distribution, Hotels and Restaurants 15 Parliamentary Questions asking: (i) in which 10 employment Transport and Communication 16 sectors there is the highest proportion of migrant workers (300559); Finance and Business Services 15 and (ii) the number of migrant workers in each employment sector in each year since 2002. (300560) Education, Health and Public 12 Administration The available information is shown in the attached tables. Other Services 11

Estimates of migrant workers, that is, people in employment in 3 the UK who were born outside the UK, are derived from the Total 13 Labour Force Survey (LFS). Such estimates are only available for 1 The number of non UK born workers as a percentage of all employed in eight broad industrial sectors. Therefore, in answer to the first each industry. 2 Standard Industrial Classification 92. question, Table 1 shows the proportion of the workforce in each 3 Includes those whose industry of employment is unknown. sector that comprises migrant workers. Table 2 provides the Source: number of migrant workers in each sector in each year since 2002. Labour Force Survey

Table 2: Employment levels of non UK born workers aged 16 and over by industry’, three months ending September 2002-09, United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted

Thousand

Agriculture, Finance Education, Fishing, Distribution, and Health and Energy and Hotels and Transport and Business Public Other Water Manufacturing Construction Restaurants Communication Services Administration Services Total2

2002 33 302 106 555 198 498 644 151 2,499

2003 25 283 110 605 184 507 711 157 2,591

2004 29 302 135 585 207 514 775 167 2,728

2005 34 335 140 611 239 562 832 163 2,935

2006 41 381 165 705 251 599 886 212 3,254

2007 49 459 182 722 285 697 914 211 3,549

2008 58 419 206 813 295 746 974 200 3,727 701W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 702W

Table 2: Employment levels of non UK born workers aged 16 and over by industry’, three months ending September 2002-09, United Kingdom, not seasonally adjusted Thousand Agriculture, Finance Education, Fishing, Distribution, and Health and Energy and Hotels and Transport and Business Public Other Water Manufacturing Construction Restaurants Communication Services Administration Services Total2

2009 ***52 **342 **190 *819 **292 *746 *1,012 **196 *3,684 1 Standard Industrial Classification 92 2 Includes those whose industry of employment is unknown. Coefficients of Variation have been calculated as an indication of the quality of the estimates, as described below; Guide to Quality: The Coefficient of Variation (CV) indicates the quality of an estimate, the smaller the CV value the higher the quality. The true value is likely to lie within +/- twice the CV—for example, for an estimate of 200 with a CV of 5 per cent. we would expect the population total to be within the range 180-220 Key Coefficient of * 0 = CV<5 **5=CV<10 *** 10 = CV <20 **** CV 20 It should be noted that the above estimates exclude people in most types of communal establishment (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels, mobile home sites etc). Source: Annual Population Survey and Annual Labour Force Survey

Futurebuilders England: Public Relations Government Strategic Marketing Advisory Board

Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what payments Futurebuilders has made to APCO with reference to the Answer of 16 July 2009, Official public affairs in the last 12 months; for what purposes; Report, column 624W, on the Advertising Advisory and if she will place in the Library a copy of each of Committee, who the members of the Government the contracts under which such payments have been Strategic Marketing Advisory Board are. [302292] made. [302212] Angela E. Smith: The current members of the Government Strategic Marketing Advisory Board are: Angela E. Smith: Futurebuilders England Ltd (a subsidiary of the Social Investment Business) is an John Mayhead (Chairman, private sector) independent company, which delivers the Futurebuilders Andrew Stott (Cabinet Office) Programme under contract to the Cabinet Office. Details Mark Lund (Central Office of Information) of individual contracts between Futurebuilders England Sian Jarvis (Department of Health) and their suppliers are a matter between Futurebuilders Sue Garrard (Department for Work and Pensions) England and the commercial supplier involved. Tim Mack (National Savings and Investment) Yasmin Diamond (Home Office) Amanda Mackenzie (private sector) Government Communications Elizabeth Fagan (private sector) Tim Evans (private sector) Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many staff in No. 10 Downing Street are members Information Commissioner of the Government Communication Network. [302221] Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister for the Tessa Jowell: The Government Communications Cabinet Office (1) what recent discussions she has had Network (GCN) is not a membership organisation. It is with the Information Commissioner on his Office’s essentially an online network for professional support policy of fast-tracking its investigations relating to and development. certain requests for information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000; [302106] Any civil servant who works in a communication role (2) what recent discussions she has had with the can, if they so wish, register on-line as an individual to Information Commissioner on the resourcing of his gain access to GCN and the resources it provides through Office; and if she will make a statement. [302107] its website. GCN registration figures do not distinguish between Tessa Jowell: Any discussions the Cabinet Office holds Cabinet Office and No 10. Downing street. with the Information Commissioner are confidential between both parties. Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office Members: Allowances how many people are members of the Government Communication Network. [302222] Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what the cost to the public purse has been of Angela E. Smith: The Government Communications preparation of the report by the Committee on Standards Network is not a membership organisation. It is primarily in Public Life on hon. Members’ expenses and allowances. a virtual, online network. [302683] Any civil servant who works in a communication role can register on-line as an individual to gain access to Tessa Jowell: Cost of the Committee’s inquiry is set GCN and the resources it provides through its website. out in its report. 703W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 704W

Ministers: Visits Abroad each of the last 20 years and (b) electoral ward in Northern Ireland in the latest year for which figures are Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office available. [302354] with reference to the answer of 16 September 2009, Official Report, column 2208W, on Ministers: visits Angela E. Smith: This matter is now the responsibility abroad, for what reason the requirement for Ministers of the Northern Ireland Administration. to inform the Foreign and Commonwealth Office Young People: Northern Ireland before undertaking visits abroad was removed from the Ministerial Code when it was revised in 2007. [302289] Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Tessa Jowell: I have nothing further to add to the Office what estimate has been made of the number of answer that I gave to the hon. Member on 16 September 18 to 30 year olds in each ward in Northern Ireland in 2009, Official Report, column 2208W. the last year for which figures are available; and what percentage of the population they represented in each Senior Civil Servants: Disciplinary Proceedings case. [302356]

David Taylor: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Angela E. Smith: This matter is now the responsibility Office on how many occasions the (a) Civil Service of the Northern Ireland Administration. Code and (b) a Civil Service Management Code was found to have been breached following investigations of the activities of a member or members of departmental boards in each of the last five years; and if she will CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES make a statement. [303192] Free School Meals

Tessa Jowell: The Civil Service Commissioners publish Greg Mulholland: To ask the Secretary of State for information in their annual reports about concerns Children, Schools and Families what proportion of raised under the Civil Service Code, which is incorporated pupils entitled to free school meals did not achieve five in the Civil Service Management Code. Copies of the GCSEs at A* to C in 2009; and if he will make a Commissioners’ annual report for 2008-09 are available statement. [302057] in the Libraries of the House. Mr. Coaker: Between 2002 and 2008, the percentage Third Sector: Finance of free school meals pupils achieving five GCSEs at A*-C rose by 17 percentage points, compared to a 13.3 Tom Levitt: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet percentage point rise for non-Free Schools Meals pupils—so Office whether her decision to divert funding from the GCSE attainment for all pupils is rising over time, and Campaigning Research Programme to the Hardship gaps are narrowing. Fund was made in accordance with Compact principles. The 2009 GCSE results broken down by pupil [301964] characteristics will be published on 15 December. Children in Care Angela E. Smith: Although this difficult decision to divert funding away from the Campaigning Research Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Programme to the Hardship Fund is not in line with Schools and Families how many local authorities in Compact principles, the Government remains fully England have contracted out their provision for care committed to championing the Compact. leavers. [300763] Due to the feedback received from the third sector, the additional funding will provide grants to organisations Dawn Primarolo: This information is not collected suffering financial hardship as a result of the extraordinary centrally. pressures caused by the recession. This will mean that Children: Databases more third sector organisations will be able to deliver vital services to the most disadvantaged and vulnerable Tim Loughton: To ask the Secretary of State for people in society at a time when they need help most. Children, Schools and Families with reference to the Unemployment: Northern Ireland answer of 10 November 2009, Official Report, column 342W,on children: databases, what the mandatory training for authorised users and administrators referred to Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet comprises. [300710] Office (1) what the unemployment rate for (a) Catholics and (b) Protestants in Northern Ireland was Dawn Primarolo: All authorised users of ContactPoint in each of the last 20 years; [302337] receive the following three mandatory training modules: (2) what the most recent percentage unemployment ‘Introduction to ContactPoint:’ This module explores rate is for each ward in Northern Ireland. [302338] the background to ContactPoint and why it has been developed. It explains: what ContactPoint does and Angela E. Smith: These matters are now the responsibility how it will benefit children, young people, families and of the Northern Ireland Administration. users; the role of ContactPoint in supporting the broader aims of helping children’s services work together to Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet meet the needs of individual children and young people; Office what the economic inactivity rate was of each how ContactPoint manages data; and the role of users (a) parliamentary constituency in Northern Ireland in in using and maintaining the system. 705W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 706W

‘The Using ContactPoint module,’which covers: accessing (2) what assessment he has made of levels of access ContactPoint from the web application browser; editing for multiple-birth children to attend the same early certain personal details; changing passwords and security years (a) settings and (b) sessions; and if he will make questions; gaining mediated access to ContactPoint; an a statement. [302518] explanation of how ContactPoint assembles the most current and reliable record for each child; and searching Dawn Primarolo: The Government recognise that for and retrieving ContactPoint records. most parents would prefer siblings, including multiple There are also three additional sections that are optional, birth children, to be in the same child care setting. depending on the specific role of the user and local Local authorities have a duty to ensure there is sufficient working practices: creating and updating records; requesting provision in their area, but this does not necessarily and removing a shield; and archiving data. ensure that the specific needs and preferences of families ‘The Understanding your Responsibilities’ module can always be met. The availability of places within which covers: the safe and secure use of ContactPoint; individual settings will depend on their occupancy levels what constitutes appropriate and inappropriate use; and other factors. The Government make significant users’ responsibilities under the Data Protection Act in funding available annually (a substantial part of the £4 relation to ContactPoint; an explanation of how billion per year currently spent on under-fives education ContactPoint usage is monitored; and the penalties for and care) to ensure that all children aged three and four misuse. have access to 12.5 hours free early education a week, rising to 15 hours in 2010. In addition to all of the core modules, users working in data administration and user management, ContactPoint For those working parents who pay for additional managers and ContactPoint trainers will also complete hours, provision is made through the child care element one specialist module appropriate to their role. of working tax credit for parents of two or more children to receive a higher level of financial support Children: International Co-operation than those with one child.

Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families with reference to the Children, Schools and Families what assessment he has answer of 11 November 2009, Official Report, column made of the level of access which multiple-birth 507W, on children: international co-operation, what families have to swimming pools and playgrounds; and arrangements there are for the UK to report to if he will issue guidance to providers on the matter. UNESCO its progress on the promotion of education [302520] to foster a culture of peace and non-violence. [302682] Mr. Sutcliffe: I have been asked to reply. Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 30 November Sport England has advised that they provide two 2009]: There are no specific arrangements to report on design guidance documents on their website which set progress and we understand that UNESCO has not sent out best practice advice on access arrangement to swimming any requests for information on the resolution to the pools. These documents can be accessed here: UK Government. http://www.sportengland.org/facilities_planning/ Children’s Centres: Enfield design_guidance_notes.aspx?sortBy=alpha&pageNum=3 The Swimming Pool Design document outlines the Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for basic principles and concepts of good swimming pool Children, Schools and Families how many children’s design aimed at those involved in facility development. centres there were in (a) Enfield North constituency The Swimming Pools Checklist document is a checklist and (b) the London Borough of Enfield in each year for reviewing swimming pool projects during development since 1997. [303367] applicable to both new and refurbishment projects, cross referred to Swimming Pool Design Guidance Notes. Dawn Primarolo: The following table sets out the While they do not specifically reference multiple birth number of Sure Start children’s centres that have been families they do reference the principles of designing designated in (a) Enfield North and (b) the London and managing facilities to maximise use of families in borough of Enfield in each year since 2006. general.

London borough of Enfield North DCSF have advised, with regards to playgrounds, Enfield constituency that they have made a substantial investment in providing all children and young people with safe and stimulating 2006 7 0 places to play. The Play Strategy, launched in December 2007 4 2 2008, sets out Government’s commitment to invest £235 2008 6 4 million to deliver 3500 new or refurbished play areas, 2009 4 2 plus 30 staffed adventure playgrounds, by 2011. Total 21 8 Local authorities are required to consult with children, Education young people, families (regardless of the number of children within them) and the wider community to Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, ensure that their views are at the heart of the design and Schools and Families (1) what estimate he has made of development of these play areas in their local the (a) costs and (b) likelihoods for parents of multiple- neighbourhoods. These play areas should be fully inclusive birth children in placing their children in the same early and accessible for all children, including those with years setting; [302517] disabilities and should offer open access play opportunities, 707W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 708W in which children and young people are generally free to up a learning place under the September guarantee for independently come and go as they please, and be free school leavers in (a) Enfield North constituency and of charge. (b) the London borough of Enfield in 2009. [303368] Extra-curricular Activities: North East Mr. Iain Wright: Information collected by Connexions services shows that 3,197 16-year-olds and 2,295 17-year- Mr. Kemp: To ask the Secretary of State for olds educated in the London borough of Enfield received Children, Schools and Families how many (a) an offer of a place in learning in 2009. Information on out-of-school and (b) holiday play schemes for the number of 16-year-old school leavers who took up children there were in (i) Houghton and Washington their offers will be available in February 2010. Separate East constituency and (ii) Sunderland in each of the figures are not available for Enfield North. last five years. [301727] We have taken decisive action to strengthen existing provision and put in place new support, training and Dawn Primarolo: Table 1 shows the number of out of jobs for young people, and have announced plans to school clubs in Sunderland local authority in each of build on this by guaranteeing every 16 and 17-year-old the last five years for which data were collected. The last who is NEET in January 2010 an offer of an entry to year that Ofsted collected information on out of school employment place, and the education maintenance clubs was 2008 as changes in legislation meant that new allowance to go with this. This will ensure that those categories were introduced for the collection of child who were unable to accept an offer under the September care data. Information on the number of holiday play Guarantee due to illness or personal circumstances, or schemes is not available as Ofsted do not collect these who have become NEET since September, receive a data. Information is not collected at parliamentary further opportunity to reengage quickly in learning. constituency level. Table 1: Number1, 2 of out of school clubs for children under eight Gifted Children: North West years of age, position at 31 March each year Sunderland local authority Mr. Timpson: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004 20 Children, Schools and Families how many children in 2005 30 (a) Crewe and Nantwich constituency and (b) 2006 50 Cheshire East local authority area have been identified 2007 50 as gifted and talented since 2007. [301776] 2008 50 1 Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. 2 Data source: Ofsted. Ms Diana R. Johnson: Through the School Census schools are asked to confirm the number of gifted and Further Education: Enfield talented pupils they have identified. The following tables provide data on how many children have been identified Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for as gifted and talented in the January census since 2007 Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has in the Crewe and Nantwich constituency and Cheshire made of the number of young people who have taken East local authority area.

Maintained primary schools1: Number and percentage2 of gifted and talented pupils3,4 2007 2008 2009 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Crewe and Nantwich 590 7.6 500 6.6 520 6.5 Cheshire East 2,090 7.5 2,160 7.9 2,010 7.5 England 282,310 6.9 331,580 8.1 353,210 8.7

State funded secondary schools1,5: Number and percentage of gifted and talented pupils2,3 2007 2008 2009 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Crewe and Nantwich 820 12.5 740 11.5 950 15.2 Cheshire East 3,220 14.0 3,490 15.4 3,410 15.2 England 416,440 12.5 448,380 13.6 466,820 14.3 1 Includes middle schools as deemed 2 The number of gifted and talented pupils expressed as a percentage of the total number of pupils in the same cohort. 3 Headcount of pupils. 4 Excludes dual registrations. 5 Includes CTCs and Academies.

Gifted Children: Staffordshire Ms Diana R. Johnson: Through the School Census schools are asked to confirm the number of gifted and talented pupils they have identified. The following tables Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for provide data on how many children have been identified Children, Schools and Families how many children in as gifted and talented in the January census since 2007 (a) Tamworth constituency and (b) the Staffordshire in the Tamworth constituency and Staffordshire county local authority area have been identified as gifted and council area. talented since 2007. [301591] 709W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 710W

Maintained primary schools: Number1 and percentage2 of gifted and talented pupils3, 4 2007 2008 2009 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Tamworth 180 2.3 170 2.2 320 4.3 Staffordshire 1,220 1.9 2,030 3.3 2,840 4.6 England 282,310 6.9 331,580 8.1 353,210 8.7

State funded secondary schools1,5:Number and percentage of gifted and talented pupils2, 3 2007 2008 2009 Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage

Tamworth 450 7.8 510 9.3 520 9.6 Staffordshire 5,620 9.4 5,710 9.7 6,580 11.3 England 416,440 12.5 448,380 13.6 466,820 14.3 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. 2 The number of gifted and talented pupils expressed as a percentage of the total number of pupils in the same cohort. 3 Headcount of pupils. 4 Excludes dual registrations. 5 Includes CTCs and Academies.

Holiday Play Schemes and 2010-11. Funding has also been made available through the standards fund grant to support the flexible Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for extension of the free entitlement, which local authorities Children, Schools and Families how many (a) can use to support the implementation of their local out-of-school and (b) holiday play schemes there were single funding formula if required (£340 million for in (i) Lewes, (ii) East Sussex, (iii) the South East and 2010-11). It is for local authorities to determine in (iv) England in each of the last five years. [302775] consultation with their Schools Forum the distribution of the Schools Budget (including the DSG). Dawn Primarolo: The table shows the number of out of school clubs in England, the south-east Government Schools: Admissions office region and East Sussex local authority in each of the last five years for which data was collected. The last Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for year that Ofsted collected information on out of school Children, Schools and Families what plans he has to clubs was 2008 as changes in legislation meant that new make the rules on deferring and delaying school entry categories were introduced for the collection of child more comprehensible for (a) parents and (b) care data. admission authorities; and if he will make a statement. Information on the number of holiday play schemes [302519] is not available as Ofsted do not collect this data. Information is not collected at parliamentary constituency Ms Diana R. Johnson: The DCSF will provide level. information to parents and local authorities about the benefits to children of entering reception class in the 1 Number of out of school clubs for children under eight years of age— September immediately after their fourth birthday. The position at 31 March each year information will cover the right of parents to defer South-east Government office East Sussex local entry until their children reach compulsory school age. England region authority Schools: Racism 2004 9,200 1,300 60 2005 9,700 1,400 60 Mr. Laurence Robertson: To ask the Secretary of 2006 10,500 1,600 60 State for Children, Schools and Families what 2007 10,600 1,500 50 requirements there are on schools to record alleged 2008 10,700 1,600 60 racist statements and actions which take place on their 1 Figures over 100 have been rounded to the nearest 100 and figures grounds; and if he will make a statement. [303553] under 100 have been rounded to the nearest 10. Source: Ofsted Mr. Coaker: The Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 places a general duty on all public authorities, Pre-school Education: Finance including schools, to eliminate unlawful racial discrimination; promote equality of opportunity; and Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for promote good race relations. Children, Schools and Families how much has been In 2006 the Department issued two guidance documents allocated to each children’s services department in each to schools on race relations. The first document, “Recording local authority for implementation of the early years and reporting racist incidents guidance”, states that a single funding formula in 2010-11. [302159] school must have a written race equality policy; advises on recording and investigating incidents; and recommends Dawn Primarolo: The free entitlement to early education that schools should report all incidents to the local for every three and four-year-old is funded through the authority at least annually.The second document, “Tackling Dedicated Schools Grant (DSG), which has increased bullying around race, religion and culture”, forms part by on average 13.1 per cent. per pupil between 2008-09 of our overall guidance to schools on bullying, “Safe to 711W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 712W

Learn: Embedding Anti-bullying Work in Schools”. Sure Start Programme: Bedfordshire The guidance recommends that schools should record all incidents of bullying and use the data to monitor Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for their anti-bullying policies. Children, Schools and Families whether he plans to In 2010, the DCSF intend to introduce a new statutory extend the operation of the Sure Start programme in duty on schools to record incidents of bullying between Mid Bedfordshire constituency. [302918] pupils, racist incidents and incidents of verbal and physical abuse against school staff. We intend to consult Dawn Primarolo: There are a total of five designated later this year on whether the new duty should require Sure Start children’s centres offering services to around schools to report all bullying incidents to their local 2,900 under-fives and their families in the Mid-Bedfordshire authority, and whether types of bullying incident (eg constituency. A further five designated children’s centres racist, disablist, homophobic, etc.) should be included. are planned to be delivered by March 2010. Local authorities are responsible for rolling out Sure Start children’s centre programmes in their areas so that Specialised Diplomas: Enfield by March 2010 there are at least 3,500 centres, one for every community. We are on track to achieve this target. Joan Ryan: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families how many young people are studying for 14 to 19 diplomas in (a) Enfield North constituency and (b) the London borough of Enfield in 2009-10. ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE [303363] Buildings: Carbon Emissions Mr. Iain Wright: Figures from local authorities of numbers of young people enrolled on a Diploma course Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for in September 2009 will have been submitted, collated Energy and Climate Change what mechanisms are in and confirmed by the end of the year. place to collect information on an annual basis to monitor the progress that is being made towards meeting emissions targets for housing and other buildings. [301944] Specialised Diplomas: South Yorkshire Joan Ruddock: The Government collect data on energy Jeff Ennis: To ask the Secretary of State for consumption and emissions from a variety of sources. Children, Schools and Families how many students are The Digest of UK Energy Statistics, an annual publication enrolled on a 14 to 19 diploma course in each subject in available on the DECC website, includes substantial (a) Barnsley and (b) South Yorkshire. [302125] information about energy and fuel use in housing and other buildings. The energy and fuel use data are then Mr. Iain Wright: The 14 to 19 Diploma was introduced converted into carbon dioxide emissions using carbon in the academic year 2008/09. Data for this year was emissions factors supplied by industry or in some cases published via the DCSF website on 11 November 2009: by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/STA/t000888/ The emissions data are also published annually on our index.shtml website. The number of learners who participated in a course Both energy use and emissions data can be found of study towards a Diploma for all or part of the here: academic year 2008/09 in (a) the Metropolitan Borough http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/statistics/ of Barnsley and (b) the Metropolitan County of South statistics.aspx Yorkshire, up to and including 31 August 2009, as identified by the number of diploma learners registered Carbon Emissions: Heating on the QCDA Diploma Aggregation Service (DAS) data is: Mr. Roger Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what assessment he has (a) Metropolitan (b) Metropolitan made of the effect on the electric heating sector of Borough of County of South the proposed Standard Assessment Procedure Barnsley Yorkshire methodology. [303321] Construction and the 35 122 Built Environment Joan Ruddock: The Department is currently examining Creative and Media 0 35 all responses received to our consultation on the proposed Engineering 0 58 changes to the Standard Assessment Procedure including Information 044those from the UK electric heating industry. Officials Technology have since requested further information from the industry Society, Health and 28 28 which we will carefully examine before any decision is Development taken in amending SAP. Total 63 287 Source: Carbon Emissions: Housing Diploma Aggregation Service Initial figures from local authorities on 2009/10 Diploma Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy learners will have been returned and confirmed by the and Climate Change (1) how many and what end of 2009. proportion of homes in Tamworth constituency classed 713W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 714W as social housing were insulated under the Carbon Departmental Official Cars Emissions Reduction Target scheme in (a) 2008 and (b) 2009 to date; [302892] Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) how many homes have been insulated in the Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made Tamworth constituency under the Carbon Emissions of the cost to his Department of providing official cars Reduction Target (CERT) scheme to date; and what for the use of (a) Ministers and (b) officials in the last percentage of the housing stock in Tamworth 12 months. [301186] constituency has been insulated under CERT. [302893] Joan Ruddock: I refer the hon. Member to the written Joan Ruddock: This information is not held centrally. ministerial statement made by my hon. Friend the Under- CERT is a GB-wide obligation and under the governing Secretary of State for Transport, with responsibility for Regulations, Government cannot oblige energy suppliers city and regional networks, on 16 July 2009, Official to report on where measures are installed under the Report, column 80WS. Carbon Emissions Reduction Target. However, we are progressing a voluntary agreement with the energy suppliers Departmental Official Hospitality to this end, which we hope to have in place this year. This will report all CERT insulation data into the Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Home Energy Efficiency Database held by the Energy Energy and Climate Change which (a) Ministers and Saving Trust, and allow area based analysis. (b) special advisers (i) planned to attend and (ii) attended the reception held by his Department on 10 Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for November 2009. [303396] Energy and Climate Change what qualifications are required for a person to undertake home energy advice Joan Ruddock: This event was attended by all DECC work related to the carbon emissions reduction target. Ministers and one DECC special adviser. [303407] Exhaust Emissions: Shipping Joan Ruddock: Article 3 of the Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions Reduction) (Amendment) Order Mrs. Curtis-Thomas: To ask the Secretary of State 2009 sets out the qualifications required. These are: for Energy and Climate Change what recent assessment (a) City and Guilds (6176) in Energy Awareness; he has made of the level of carbon dioxide emissions (b) Level 3 of the National Vocational Qualification 6049-03 from ships in 2008; what initiatives are being (Provide Energy Efficiency Services); considered to encourage retrofitting of low carbon (c) A qualification based on units one to five of the National technologies; and if he will assess the effectiveness of Occupational Standards (NOS) for Home and Community the introduction of a carbon levy on imported goods Energy Advisers which qualification is awarded by a body with income used to tackle climate change in the which has been approved and quality assured by the Office of developing world. [300500] the Qualifications and Examinations Regulator; or, (d) A qualification that is recognised be a member state of the Joan Ruddock: Shipping is responsible for some 2 per European Union, an EEA state or Turkey. cent. of global emissions. We continue to work on reducing overall emissions on shipping, and will be Climate Change Adaptation Sub-Committee seeking a global sectoral approach to deliver this in the Copenhagen negotiations, where the UK will be calling Mr. Paice: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy for a 20 per cent. reduction from 2005 levels. Establishment and Climate Change on what dates the Climate Change of a carbon price in the shipping sector will help drive Adaptation Sub-Committee has met. [301715] technical innovation by the industry. We are in discussion on a range of options for funding poorer nations’ efforts to tackle climate change, but we do not believe Dan Norris: I have been asked to reply. an import levy is an effective or efficient means to do so The Adaptation Sub-Committee has so far met four as it provides no certainty of environmental benefits. times, on the following occasions: 30 July 2009 Fuel Poverty: Wales 3 September 2009 23 October 2009 Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy 10 November 2009. and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the effect on the level of fuel poverty in Wales of the rise in (a) (b) Departmental Legal Costs domestic energy and gas bills to 2020 outlined in the UK Renewables Strategy. [302376]

Pete Wishart: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Kidney [holding answer 30 November 2009]: Fuel Energy and Climate Change what the (a) cost and (b) poverty is a devolved issue and the response is therefore purpose was of legal (i) representation and (ii) advice a matter for the Welsh Assembly Government. sought by his Department and its agencies in each year since May 1997. [300373] Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change what estimate he has made of the Joan Ruddock: The Department is not able to determine level of fuel poverty in Wales in the last five years. this information without incurring disproportionate costs. [302549] 715W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 716W

Mr. Kidney [holding answer 30 November 2009]: Fuel in Cumbria named in the National Nuclear Policy poverty is a devolved issue and the response is therefore Statement as suitable for prospective new nuclear a matter for the Welsh Assembly Government. power plants. [302237]

Nuclear Engineering: Training Mr. Kidney: The Government assessed whether it is reasonable to conclude, at a strategic level, that a nuclear Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy power station within the nominated sites at Kirksanton, and Climate Change what steps his Department has Braystones and Sellafield in Cumbria could be protected taken to ensure that sufficient numbers of specialist against flood risk including the potential effects of nuclear engineers are being trained. [301748] climate change, storm surge and tsunami, taking into account possible countermeasures and mitigations. Mr. Kidney: The Government recognises the challenge This assessment included a consideration of fluvial of ensuring that the UK has enough specialist nuclear flooding and the results of the assessment were published engineers to maintain and decommission existing nuclear in the Nuclear National Policy Statement on 9 November power stations as well as building new ones. The Office 2009. This is available at: for Nuclear Development (OND) in DECC is working http://www.energynpsconsultation.decc.gov.uk/nuclear very closely with the employer led National Skills Academy In assessing flood risk the Government have been for Nuclear, and Cogent (the Sector Skills Council for advised in particular by the Environment Agency and the nuclear sector) to address this challenge. the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate. Sites were assessed Specifically we are improving science provision in against the climate change allowances in Planning Policy schools, have charged Cogent with taking forward a Statement 25 (PPS25) and UK Climate Projections training strategy, and have helped set up the National 2009 (UKCP09) findings. Skills Academy for Nuclear to improve the supply of The Government are consulting on its preliminary specialist skills at all levels, including nuclear engineering. conclusions until February 2010 and will continue to In addition, DECC Ministers have regular discussions work with the Environment Agency (and others) to with the energy industry about skills development issues ensure that the Nuclear National Policy Statement reflects relating to new nuclear build. up-to-date assessment of the strategic flood risk to the The OND is currently working in partnership with a site. Detailed flood risk assessments would be required number of bodies, including Cogent, to develop a high by the Infrastructure Planning Commission at the point level skills and capability plan detailing exactly what at which any application for development consent came skills will be needed, the volume of different skills and forward. when they will be needed in order to be able to have new nuclear power plants built and generating electricity by Power Stations 2018. With this detailed plan in place we will then work to identify and close any potential skills gaps in the Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for nuclear workforce before they become critical. Energy and Climate Change with reference to his oral statement of 9 November 2009, Official Report, Nuclear Power columns 30-33, on energy national policy statements, which generation technology will be used at each of the Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for 20 gigawatt generation facilities which are under Energy and Climate Change what the evidential basis construction or have been consented to. [303555] was for the Prime Minister’s announcement to the Mr. Kidney: The following table provides a breakdown Confederation of British Industry Conference on of the power stations that are either under construction 23 November 2009 that the Government had increased or have planning consents, by type. It is based on data its plans for new nuclear capacity from 12 to from National Grid. 16 gigawatts. [303068] Gigawatt Mr. Kidney: Government’s policy is that it is in the With planning public interest to allow energy companies to fund, Type Under construction consent develop and build new nuclear power stations and that Government will take active steps to make the conditions Coal 0.0 0.8 right for investment and enable new nuclear to come on Gas 5.1 6.7 line as soon as possible. Wind 2.0 2.7 Energy companies have announced plans to build Other renewable 2.0 0.6 around 16 gigawatts of new nuclear capacity. The increase energy Combined Heat and 0.6 0.0 in new nuclear capacity results from the recent commitment Power (CHP) of up to 3.6 gigawatts by a consortium of GDF SUEZ Interconnector 1.2 0.0 SA, Iberdrola SA and Scottish and Southern Energy plc following their purchase of a site near Sellafield Total 9.0 10.8 from the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. Power Stations: EU Law

Nuclear Power Stations: Cumbria Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change which power stations in Paul Flynn: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy the UK have a limited life derogation under the Large and Climate Change what recent assessment he has Combustion Plant Directive; and when each is made of the risks of fluvial flooding to the three sites expected to close. [303393] 717W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 718W

Mr. Kidney: The following power stations in the UK Mr. Kidney: The data requested are not readily available have opted out of the large combustion plant directive: and will have to be extrapolated from existing records, Ballylumford; Eaga, the scheme manager, has advised the Department Cockenzie; that this process may take up to 10 working days. Once the data are available a spreadsheet will be placed in the Didcot A; Libraries of the House. Fawley; Ferrybridge C; Mrs. Gillan: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Grain; and Climate Change how many requests for funding Ironbridge; under the Warm Front scheme have been (a) made and Kingsnorth; (b) granted in each of the last three years. [302158] Littlebrook D; and Tilbury. Mr. Kidney [holding answer 30 November 2009]: Eaga, the scheme manager, does not record the number of They must close by the end of 2015 or when they have ineligible applicants who approach the scheme seeking run for 20,000 hours since 1 January 2008, whichever is assistance, as such, the total number of requests for the sooner. Within these constraints, decisions about assistance are not recorded. when they will close are commercial matters for the operators. However, the total number of people receiving assistance in each of the last three complete years, alongside the Renewable Energy: Wales total number of qualifying referrals, are as follows:

Mr. Evans: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Qualifying referrals Assisted households and Climate Change with reference to the UK 2006-07 303,136 253,079 Renewables Strategy, what estimate he has made of the 2007-08 347,391 268,900 proportion of the national cost of the renewable energy 2008-09 308,473 233,594 strategy by 2030 which will be borne by consumers in Wales. [302377] Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Mr. Kidney [holding answer 30 November 2009]: The and Climate Change if he will assess the merits of cost of the Renewable Energy Strategy, including the including liquefied petroleum gas amongst the fuels impact on average consumer bills was set out in the eligible for funding under the Warm Front scheme. overall impact assessment, published alongside the strategy [302369] in July 2009. Mr. Kidney [holding answer 30 November 2009]: The http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/what_we_do/ uksupply/energy_mix/renewable/res/res.aspx current Warm Front specification allows LPG systems to be repaired or replaced under the scheme. The Department has not made an assessment of costs borne by consumers in Wales. The present regulations do not allow LPG systems to be installed as new measures. However, the Department Warm Front Scheme is aware that LPG can provide a valuable alternative for many potential applicants, especially those in Park Homes, and is currently undertaking work to establish whether Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for or not they should be included. Energy and Climate Change (1) what the average waiting times were for (a) surveying of property, (b) Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy completion of insulation improvements and (c) and Climate Change how much money remains to be completion of heating improvements under the Warm disbursed from the Warm Front scheme in 2009-10. Front scheme for each of the last 18 months, broken [302370] down by local authority; [301950] (2) how many people applied for a Warm Front grant Mr. Kidney [holding answer 30 November 2009]: The in each of the last 18 months, broken down by local funding allocated for 2009-10 is set at £369 million. At authority; and how many such applications have not the end of November 2009, scheme spend will stand at been processed to date. [301951] £308 million, leaving £61 million to be disbursed over the remainder of the financial year. Mr. Kidney: The data requested are not readily available and will have to be extrapolated from existing records. Warm Front Scheme: Disabled People Eaga, the scheme manager, has advised the Department that this process may take up to 10 working days. Once the data are available a spreadsheet will be placed in the Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy Libraries of the House. and Climate Change if he will ensure that carers and parents of all children with disabilities are able to Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for access funding from the Warm Front Scheme. [302122] Energy and Climate Change how many recipients of Warm Front grants in each local authority area waited Mr. Kidney: Householders with a child under 16, in longer than (a) three months and (b) six months for receipt of one or more of the benefits listed as follows heating improvements to be completed in (i) 2005, (ii) are eligible for assistance under the Warm Front scheme. 2006, (iii) 2007, (iv) 2008 and (v) 2009; and how long Income support such recipients have waited in each case. [301952] Council tax benefit 719W Written Answers1 DECEMBER 2009 Written Answers 720W

Housing benefit City of Sunderland received assistance under the Job seeker’s allowance (income-based) Warm Front programme in 2008-09; and how many Pension credit such households he estimates will receive such Income-related employment and support allowance assistance in (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11. [301729] Householders in receipt of disability living allowance are eligible for assistance under the Warm Front scheme. However a disability living allowance award for a child Mr. Kidney: The number of households who received in a household will not qualify for the Warm Front assistance in the City of Sunderland under Warm Front grant. A review of our fuel poverty policies is under way in 2008-09 is 1,651. and part of its remit is to examine whether we can make The number of households who have received assistance existing fuel poverty policies more effective, including within the City of Sunderland under the Warm Front exploring whether we can more effectively identify and programme in the period 1 April 2009 until 31 October target assistance at the most vulnerable households. 2009 is 1,217. Warm Front Scheme: Sunderland Estimates are not compiled on an individual city or Mr. Kemp: To ask the Secretary of State for Energy local authority basis and therefore figures are not available and Climate Change how many households within the for the remainder of 2009-10 or the period of 2010-11.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 1 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 953 FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— Afghanistan ...... 954 continued Afghanistan ...... 961 Foreign Prisoner Release...... 966 Afghanistan-Pakistan ...... 956 Middle East (Nuclear Proliferation)...... 964 Cyprus ...... 953 Middle East Peace Process ...... 965 EU Budget Reform ...... 958 Topical Questions ...... 968 EU Informal Meeting ...... 967 Zimbabwe ...... 967 Falkland Islands...... 961 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 1 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 117WS ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Social Work Task Force ...... 117WS AFFAIRS...... 121WS Coastal Change Pathfinders...... 121WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 119WS Eco-towns Planning Policy Statement...... 119WS Housing and Planning Delivery Grant...... 120WS DEFENCE...... 121WS TRANSPORT ...... 122WS UK-Iraq Agreement (Training and Maritime Correction to Written Answers ...... 122WS Support) ...... 121WS Railways: Greater Anglia Franchise...... 122WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 1 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. PRESENTED PETITIONS PRESENTED PETITIONS—continued Badman Report (Burton)...... 9P Badman Report (West Worcestershire)...... 9P Badman Report (Hampstead and Highgate)...... 10P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 1 December 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 636W CABINET OFFICE—continued Bankruptcy: East of England ...... 636W Employment ...... 696W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 636W Foreign Workers...... 699W Departmental Pay ...... 636W Futurebuilders England: Public Relations...... 701W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 637W Government Communications ...... 701W Departmental Travel ...... 637W Government Strategic Marketing Advisory Board. 702W Land Mines: Exports ...... 637W Information Commissioner...... 702W Lord Rothschild...... 638W Members: Allowances ...... 702W Research: Standards...... 638W Ministers: Visits Abroad ...... 703W Saif al-Islam Gaddafi...... 638W Senior Civil Servants: Disciplinary Proceedings..... 703W Strategic Investment Fund ...... 638W Third Sector: Finance ...... 703W Telephone Services...... 639W Unemployment: Northern Ireland ...... 703W Young People: Northern Ireland ...... 704W CABINET OFFICE...... 693W Caparo Group...... 693W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES ...... 704W Charities: Fundraising ...... 693W Children: Databases...... 704W Charity Commission ...... 693W Children in Care...... 704W Charity Commission: Public Relations...... 694W Children: International Co-operation ...... 705W Childbirth: Poverty ...... 694W Children’s Centres: Enfield ...... 705W Departmental Internet ...... 694W Education ...... 705W Departmental Scientists ...... 695W Extra-curricular Activities: North East ...... 707W Departmental Taxis ...... 695W Free School Meals...... 704W Departmental Theft ...... 695W Further Education: Enfield ...... 707W Driving...... 696W Gifted Children: North West...... 708W Col. No. Col. No. CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES—continued ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE—continued Gifted Children: Staffordshire...... 707W Carbon Emissions: Heating ...... 712W Holiday Play Schemes ...... 709W Carbon Emissions: Housing...... 712W Pre-school Education: Finance ...... 709W Climate Change Adaptation Sub-Committee...... 713W Schools: Admissions ...... 710W Departmental Legal Costs ...... 713W Schools: Racism...... 710W Departmental Official Cars...... 714W Specialised Diplomas: Enfield...... 711W Departmental Official Hospitality...... 714W Specialised Diplomas: South Yorkshire...... 711W Exhaust Emissions: Shipping ...... 714W Sure Start Programme: Bedfordshire...... 712W Fuel Poverty: Wales...... 714W Nuclear Engineering: Training ...... 715W COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 640W Nuclear Power...... 715W Affordable Housing...... 640W Nuclear Power Stations: Cumbria...... 715W Audit Commission: Public Relations...... 640W Power Stations ...... 716W Capita ...... 641W Power Stations: EU Law ...... 716W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 642W Renewable Energy: Wales...... 717W Departmental Legislation ...... 642W Warm Front Scheme ...... 717W Departmental Press Officers...... 642W Warm Front Scheme: Disabled People ...... 718W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 642W Warm Front Scheme: Sunderland ...... 719W Departmental Travel ...... 642W Derelict Land...... 643W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL Floods: Cumbria...... 643W AFFAIRS...... 572W Floods: Finance ...... 643W Departmental Recycling...... 572W Homes and Communities Agency...... 644W Drinking Water: Pollution Control ...... 573W Housing and Planning Delivery Grant...... 644W Food Supply...... 573W Housing: Building Regulations ...... 644W Genetically Modified Organisms: Research...... 573W Housing: Empty Property ...... 644W Land Drainage: Urban Areas ...... 574W Housing: Energy ...... 645W Pets: Animal Welfare...... 575W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 645W Local Government Finance: Kent...... 645W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 622W Local Government Services...... 646W British Indian Ocean Territory: Environment Operational Efficiency Programme ...... 646W Protection ...... 625W Public Works Loans Board: Croydon...... 647W British Petroleum ...... 625W Shared Ownership Schemes: East of England...... 647W Colombia ...... 626W Sustainable Communities Act 2007...... 648W Convention on Cluster Munitions...... 626W Tenant Services Authority: Public Relations ...... 649W Democratic Republic of Congo ...... 626W Departmental Legislation ...... 627W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 593W Departmental Scientists ...... 627W Capita ...... 593W EU Energy Security ...... 622W Departmental Contracts ...... 593W EU High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 593W Security Policy ...... 627W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 594W EU Membership: Referendum ...... 624W Digital Broadcasting: Complaints...... 594W Europe: Politics and Government ...... 628W Digital Broadcasting: Radio...... 594W Gaza ...... 623W Digital Switchover Help Scheme...... 594W Hanslope Park ...... 628W Driving...... 595W High Representative for Foreign Affairs: President UK School Games ...... 596W of The European Council ...... 628W DEFENCE...... 607W India: Religious Freedom...... 628W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 607W Iran...... 629W Armed Forces: Cadets...... 608W Iran: Arms Control ...... 629W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 609W Iran: Bahai Faith...... 630W Chelsea Barracks...... 609W Iran: Press Freedom ...... 630W Chinook Helicopters...... 609W Iraq and Afghanistan: Reconstruction...... 631W Colombia: Military Aid ...... 610W Israel: Borders...... 631W Defence: International Cooperation...... 610W Italy ...... 631W Defence Support Group...... 610W Middle East: Armed Conflict...... 632W Departmental Internet ...... 610W Middle East: Peace Negotiations...... 632W Departmental Ministerial Policy Advisers...... 611W Middle East Peace Process ...... 624W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 611W Mikhail Khodorkovsky...... 633W Departmental Scientists ...... 612W Nuclear Non-Proliferation Policy ...... 622W Hercules Aircraft: Training ...... 612W Pakistan: Terrorism...... 624W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 612W Parliamentary Assemblies: Finance...... 633W Iraq: Interpreters...... 612W Shell...... 634W Merlin Helicopters: Training...... 613W South Africa: Chess ...... 634W Military Aircraft ...... 613W St. Helena ...... 625W Military Alliances ...... 613W Sudan: Armed Conflict...... 634W Puma Helicopters...... 614W Uganda: Homosexuality ...... 635W Royal Fleet Auxiliary ...... 614W Western Sahara: Politics and Government ...... 635W Wildcat Helicopters...... 614W Zimbabwe ...... 624W

ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE...... 712W HEALTH...... 650W Buildings: Carbon Emissions ...... 712W Blood: Donors ...... 650W Col. No. Col. No. HEALTH—continued INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 606W Botulinum Toxin ...... 650W Afghanistan ...... 606W Cancer: Health Services ...... 651W Departmental Internet ...... 606W Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease...... 652W Departmental Public Relations ...... 607W Departmental Consultants...... 652W United Nations: Females ...... 607W Departmental Meetings ...... 653W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 653W JUSTICE...... 578W Departmental Railways...... 653W British Petroleum ...... 578W Departmental Scientists ...... 653W Debts: Advisory Services...... 578W Departmental Taxis ...... 653W Departmental Contracts ...... 580W Departmental Temporary Employment ...... 654W Departmental Internet ...... 580W East of England Strategic Health Authority: Departmental Legislation ...... 581W Consultants...... 654W Departmental Scientists ...... 581W Genetically Modified Organisms: Research...... 654W Domestic Violence ...... 581W Health Professions: Pay...... 655W Driving...... 582W Influenza...... 655W Driving Offences ...... 583W KBR ...... 655W Driving Offences: Norwich ...... 583W Lung Cancer ...... 656W National Offender Management Information Medical Records: Data Protection ...... 656W System: Expenditure ...... 587W Medical Research: Expenditure...... 656W Peterborough Prison ...... 588W Mentally Ill: Drugs ...... 657W Prison: Drugs...... 589W National Centre for Stereotactic Radiosurgery: Prisoners: Muslims...... 590W Standards...... 657W Prisoners Release ...... 590W NHS: Disclosure of Information ...... 658W Self-Harm: Prisoners...... 591W NHS Purchasing and Supply Agency: Contracts ... 658W Young Offenders: Remand in Custody...... 591W Nurses...... 658W Primary Care Trusts: Finance ...... 660W NORTHERN IRELAND ...... 596W Queen Mary’s Hospital Sidcup: Accident and Children: Abuse ...... 596W Emergency Departments...... 660W Departmental Assets...... 597W Smoking...... 660W Departmental Cost Effectiveness ...... 597W Tranquilisers: Misuse ...... 661W Departmental Internet ...... 598W Departmental Scientists ...... 598W HOME DEPARTMENT ...... 661W Departmental Taxis ...... 598W Animal Experiments ...... 661W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 599W Antisocial Behaviour: Crime Prevention ...... 663W Police Service of Northern Ireland...... 599W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Young People ...... 662W Assaults on Police ...... 663W PRIME MINISTER ...... 614W Asylum ...... 665W Christmas...... 614W Closed Circuit Television ...... 665W Commonwealth ...... 615W Crime...... 665W Departmental Meetings ...... 615W Crime and Disorder Act 1988 ...... 666W Departmental Rail Travel...... 615W Crime: Public Transport...... 666W Trinidad and Tobago: Commonwealth Heads of Crimes of Violence...... 667W Government Conference ...... 615W Crimes of Violence: North East ...... 670W Uganda: Commonwealth Heads of Government Departmental Internet ...... 673W Conference...... 616W Deportation: Finance...... 673W DNA...... 673W SCOTLAND...... 592W Driving Offences: Insurance...... 674W Departmental Information Officers ...... 592W Entry Clearances: Overseas Students ...... 674W Departmental Internet ...... 592W Fingerprints: Databases ...... 675W Departmental Travel ...... 592W Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997...... 675W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 593W Firearms: Crime...... 675W Fires: Atherstone on Stour...... 677W Human Trafficking ...... 677W SOLICITOR-GENERAL...... 575W Hunting ...... 677W BAE Systems ...... 575W Labour Migration ...... 678W Business: Corruption ...... 576W Missing Persons ...... 679W Departmental Air Travel ...... 576W Police: Bedfordshire ...... 686W Departmental Cost-effectiveness...... 576W Police: Databases ...... 687W Departmental Domestic Visits ...... 577W Police: Road Traffic Control ...... 687W Departmental Scientists ...... 577W Radicalism ...... 687W Serious Fraud Office ...... 578W Roads: Accidents ...... 688W Vodafone Group: Ghana Telecom...... 578W Serious Organised Crime Agency...... 688W Sexual Assault Referral Centres ...... 689W TRANSPORT ...... 567W Sexual Offences: Alcoholic Drinks...... 690W Arriva ...... 567W Terrorism ...... 690W Aviation: Waltham Forest ...... 567W Victim Support Schemes ...... 690W Bus Services: Fares...... 568W Victim Support Schemes: Finance...... 692W East Coast Main Line ...... 568W Yvonne Fletcher...... 692W Motor Vehicles: Excise Duties and Insurance ...... 568W National Express East Coast...... 568W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION ...... 567W North Cotswold Line ...... 569W House of Commons Annunciator System: ...... 567W Norwich-London Railway Line ...... 569W Col. No. Col. No. TRANSPORT—continued TREASURY—continued Penzance-Plymouth Railway Line...... 569W VAT ...... 605W Public Transport: Tyne and Wear...... 569W VAT: Postal Services...... 605W Railways: Penalty Fares...... 570W Working Tax Credit ...... 606W Railways: Repairs and Maintenance ...... 570W Roads: Accidents ...... 570W WALES...... 571W Rolling Stock ...... 571W Departmental Consultants...... 571W Transport: Weston-super-Mare ...... 571W Departmental Information Officers ...... 571W Departmental Public Expenditure...... 571W TREASURY ...... 599W Departmental Travel ...... 572W Alcoholic Drinks: Fraud ...... 599W Immobilisation of Vehicles...... 572W Capital Gains Tax: Second Homes...... 600W Child Benefit...... 600W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 616W Child Care Vouchers ...... 601W Children: Maintenance ...... 616W Floods: Cumbria...... 601W Departmental Visits Abroad ...... 617W KBR ...... 601W Disability Living Allowance...... 617W Members: Correspondence ...... 601W Disability Living Allowance: Lone Parents ...... 617W Public Expenditure...... 602W Employment and Support Allowance: Dartford .... 618W Public Expenditure: Wales ...... 602W Members: Correspondence ...... 619W Revenue and Customs...... 603W Poverty...... 619W Revenue and Customs: Labour Turnover...... 603W Poverty: Children ...... 620W Taxation: Holiday Accommodation...... 603W Poverty: Farmers...... 621W Taxation: Pensions ...... 604W Social Security Benefits: Elderly...... 622W Tobacco ...... 604W Winter Fuel Payments...... 622W Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. 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CONTENTS

Tuesday 1 December 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 953] [see index inside back page] Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs

Gary McKinnon (Extradition) [Col. 975] Answer to urgent question—(Alan Johnson)

European Financial Services Proposals [Col. 989] Motion—(Sarah McCarthy-Fry)—on a Division, agreed to

Census [Col. 1030] Motion—(Mr. Blizzard) Amendment—(Dan Rogerson)—negatived Motion agreed to

Legal Services Commission [Col. 1036] Motion—(Mr. Blizzard)—on a Division, agreed to

Fisheries [Col. 1040] General debate

Petitions [Col. 1078]

Lloyds Group (Aylesbury Vale) [Col. 1081] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Higher Education [Col. 1WH] Proportional Representation [Col. 26WH] Seaside Town Regeneration [Col. 50WH] Super-strength Lager [Col. 59WH] Offshore Dredging [Col. 67WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 117WS]

Petitions [Col. 9P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 567W] [see index inside back page]