7 Days 12 January 1972 A 7 Days Discussion

Tony Garnett and talk about Family Life Cameron Nevis in the making

C ATHY COME HOME”, “Up the Junction”, “”. “Kes”, and now “Family Life”. Ken Loach (Director) and (Producer) have been responsible for some of the most important films to appear on British T.V. and cinema for the last decade. Using naturalistic documentary techniques, their films have uncompromisingly explored social injustice. Why have they made these kinds of movies? How have they financed them? Is there a future for naturalistic films? Peter Wollen (script writer and author of Signs and Meaning in the Cinema), John McGrath (playwright, script-writer and T.V. director, currently touring with his new theatre company 7/84), John Mathews (who pro­ duced Cinemantics) and Anthony Barnett (co-researcher with John Mathews of last weeks feature on British Mental treatment in 7 DAYS) went to talk to Ken Loach along with Tony Garnett — who was in bed recovering from Tony Garnett laryngitis. Ken Loach

JM: How did you come to make Family closed, they’ve been attempting to schizogenic family. KL: I tend to see it as the inverse of audience? Life? create “asylums”, in the best sense, in PW: That must have meant a lot of care what you’re saying... It’s possible KL: No, I’m sure you can make films houses — there’s one in North in the casting. from observing individuals reacting on which are un-naturalistic in the way the TG: Well actually it goes back to when I — where people who have had long and was at university — at University KL: Yes, if you can find the right one another to make some generalised sequences are juxtaposed, but if people awful experiences in bins can just “be”. people, then it will go. That’s the statement, and that in fact you’re College, London — reading psychology It’s a way of not having to go back into can see a situation and say: Yes, I in a desultory way — being taught about biggest hurdle. looking through the other end of the recognise that, I recognise those people, a bin when you’re still at a stage when telescope. rats in mazes, Skinner boxes, and things you can’t quite cope with the rigours of JMG: Do you see the theoretical that’s true of me, or that’s true of PW: You can look at it either way: like that. Then I came across Erving the outside world. We met a therapist richness and ideas in the film as the someone I know, then you’ve made a either you can say they’re all like that, Goffman — a book called “The called Ben Churchill, through him we content, and the realisation through this basic contact. If it’s a film about an or this one is special. And neither of presentation of self in everyday life” talked to Mike Riddall particular way of doing it as industrial situation, it’s very important which just knocked me over. I started to constituting a form. Would you accept those alternatives is presumably what that everybody in the film is accurate so read in areas of psychology which KL: And he was fresh from the that as a valid distinction to start with? you want to say. the people seeing it recognise their own weren’t broached at all in the academic experience of working in a NHS JMG: It seems to be a question of the fellow factory workers. It’s also very hospital, where he had to cope with TG: When something works as a whole, world. They weren’t considered to be you can’t split it up. It’s a unit. The limits of naturalism. I’ve seen most of important that you can follow what’s “tough-minded” in the William James problems on a large scale. This was just what you’ve done, and at times you’ve going on — the story line. Given that, what we were looking for . . . And he content and form — what it’s about and sense. Then I struck up a friendship how it manifests itself — are the same broken from naturalism very clearly. it’s hard to avoid going towards a film with David Mercer whose own reading made a very real contribution. . . He When we worked together in television, that looks naturalistic. could say: “It’s not like this — this is thing. When it comes a cropper, they’re- had gone through all these changes as not the same. There’s an artificial, a and before that in the theatre, you were JM: But do you agree that there’s a well, and then meeting Ronnie Laing, how it is” . . . he was one of the notoriously non-naturalistic, or anti- touchstones of reality. Not that he’s to mechanical relationship between them. problem here? If your political and and talking to him, and then it all came naturalistic, in your approach, particu­ cinematic purposes are naturalism, and together. blame for any of the mistakes. But if PW: In a more general way, there are larly in the theatre, but also in “Diary you’re filming an interview, then he can you present the events on the screen as JM: What about the actual story line — two important problems about Family of a young man”. But of late you seem if they were real life, then compounded say that this is false, and we can change Life that I’d like your response to. One, to have been getting closer into a did you take a case history as your it. That was his major contribution. with Peter’s funnelling effect won’t you material? you seem to begin with the theoretical naturalistic vein. end up with a form of pessimism? ideas, which are general, and then move TG: Well it’s a bit like “Cathy” really. The main difficulty was in bringing KL: Y es,' I think that’s true . .. We’re TG: Why do you end up with You can say that all those things really the three people together — the mother, into the particular. That always has the just trying to make films to reflect pessimism? the father, the daughter — who aren’t in effect, for me, of zooming in, or happened to various people, but we people in situations as accurately as JM: Family Life seems to be obstructed couldn’t point to one person that they fact a family, and if they had been, zeroeing in, of going down a funnel, possible. Most other communications probably wouldn’t have been a until at the end you reach a dead point. by the lack of an underlying dialectic all happened to. you read or see or experience seem so connecting the family with the wider schizogenic family, ie one which creates I think that comes out, as a result of the totally inaccurate. We’ve tried to say: PW: How many of you discussed the preconception you have of what you’re society; it was isolated. This lack of film? schizophrenics. The difficulty was “Well look, this is how it is” in a way making then appear as if they would be doing — which I wasn’t completely dialectical connection would seem to TG: At that stage it’s David Mercer, Ken which ordinary people can appreciate, end up in pessimism. a schizogenic family, while they used happy about in Family Life. By making and me. And then a bit later Mike so they can glean some perspective. their personalities, that is those parts it these particular people, and by TG: I think there might be some justice Riddall was very helpful. He played the We’ve tried not to make it an which could have produced a child who making it so perfectly realistic, in the in that. If you start off with some basic progressive psychiatrist in indiscriminate naturalism, and by the Family Life had difficulty in establishing her own end it either becomes just those political assumptions — which we but he’s not an actor he is a progressive juxtaposition of different naturalistic identity. Getting that balancing act was particular people, and you lose sight of sequences — to make the comment needn’t go into — then there are lots of psychiatrist. difficult. People veer into other aspects the general, theoretical points which there. So that’s why we veered towards ways of filming that theme. JM: How did you come across him? of their personality which would have were what you started with. Or they are that sort of thing. PW: You mentioned Kingsley Hall, and TG: David had done a draft. One of the provided the girl with a way out. Billy seen as representatives, in which case these follow-up places. Did you think of the theory becomes too simplified; it JMG: How do you relate this to a things which didn’t quite work was the Dean played the father, and is a much consciously political approach? mentioning these in the film? business of the doctor being sacked — more open and generous bloke than he seems as if you’re saying all families are just like this. KL: It’s what you tend to make films KL. I don t think those facilities would which has happened to a number of appears in the film. The problem was to about. One thing which I think has been be available for most of the people Psychiatrists we know who were stop him showing too much of that, The other thing is the point about central to the films which we’ve done confronted by that situation. The idea working in the NHS. It’s very difficult while at the same time not letting him content and form. I’d argue what is a has been to try to make films for the that there can be any optimism gleaned to script. We got permission from pretend to be someone he wasn’t. more Brechtian point of view, that there class which we think is the only from within the way we treat mentally Equity to work with someone who You’re constantly trying to create a should be gaps and rifts between the politically important class — the ill people now, would be false. To say wasn’t an actor, with people who had situation in which they’re off balance, content and the form which set up gaps working class — and therefore not to “The whole system is terrible, but hang had quite long careers as schizophrenics. so that their own reactions are the ones and rifts in people’s minds. Far from the make elitist films, or cineaste films, but on folks, there is a chink here”. It So we went to Duncan Road, and asked which come through. It’s a matter of film being closed and continuous, there to make films which can be understood would be as false as saying: “ Couldn’t people like Leon Redler, Mike Yokum finding those reactions which are should be discontinuities, disclosures by ordinary people. Billy Kes be got a job in a zoo?” It’s not — they’re part of the Philadelphia genuine to them, which in the context which go on operating in people’s minds JMG: Does it necessarily have to be on. Association to help. Since Kingsley Hall of the film and script add up to a afterwards. naturalistic for a working class PW: So you’re saying, if it’s to be 21 7 Days 12 January 1972 opened up, it has to be by politicising it the most natural thing in the world for had.” The other half said “The poor girl ECT for the Family Victim more? those things to link up. If you can do a with parents like that, no wonder she Exclusive Stills from the film "Family Life" KL: It would have to be by making piece like that, that is the way to do it, went mad”. Both of which were failures what we felt was implicit, explicit, yes. and we didn’t. from our point of view, because if you JMG: But this is precisely the limit of PW The problem is how to politicise a make those kind of moral judgements naturalism. film without just tacking on a message. then you’re ceasing to understand the predicament. PW: It may be the limit also of wanting AB: How does the absence of a to go for the mass audience. large-scale political movement against JM: Are you going to aim for more for the present set-up affect your making television again now? AB: What do you mean by the limit of films? naturalism? KL: It’s a bit hand-to-mouth, you never KL: It’s the context in which we are. know what you’re going to get the JMG: What Ken has implied. It is TC: It’s us, isn’t it? We are part of the money for. impossible to show, in a naturalistic English radical tradition struggling for form, the way out of an apparently TG: I’ve just signed a new contract with some marxism, we’re not separate from the BBC for two years. The idea is to closed situation. it. It would be dead easy to take an easy Precisely to have a dialectical relation­ spend half the time with telly and half way out of it. That would be with cinema, if we can get the money. ship to the subject, you need an extra mechanical. The reduction of it would JM: What sort of projects? dimension. be one film of a thick-thighed girl riding KL: That’s a very valid point. We have astride a tractor shouting “Bread Land TG: There’s a few things cooking it’s been involved in films which were more and Peace”. The safety of that is bad luck to talk about them (laughter). overtly political in the methods used marvellous. It’s like that awful word in There are one or two historical subjects, which we hope have been showing the politics about being “correct”, its a kind fairly recent history, because the optimism more clearly, the way out of Stalinist death that is, in politics, it working class have no history, they more clearly. But you can’t make that means people are not daring, risking, haven’t been allowed to have history, its film every time. You can’t just take a not putting their imagination into their been taken away from them, it’s political attitude and state that in the political thought and work, all they are important to do something about that. films over and over again trotting out doing is avoiding criticism by taking the AB: What is the structure of Kestrel, the message each time — the commercial Janice (Sandy Ratcliff) flinches as she is injected with anaesthetic. "I don't want “correct” line. This is true in making how do you go about making films as an to go to sleep" she whimpers. at the end films. I mean “correct” used in that independent organisation? JMG: Peter made a point that I don’t special sense that it often is in political TG: What happens, is you go to Nat think I agree with that a mass audience discussion, not that one shouldn’t argue Cohen, or whoever, one of the means having naturalistic forms. for a position. distributors, with a script and a detailed PW: It’s not a question of the audience JMG: There is far more work in the budget and ask for the money. itself resisting, but within the conditions theatre that has been done on this JMG: Others go along with a star as of production, distribution and exhi­ which one can draw on, also the theatre well. bition in which the cinema industry is related to circus and show business, TG: True, we’re only talking about us. works, it can be a limit. Take, say, you can use so many more devices in Some people start with a poster Godard, who is always accused of being the theatre, and the theatre is much (silence) It’s true, there is a man at elitist, a phrase Ken used, it comes from more related to having a direct effect on Hammer who says that he starts with a the fact that the films he wants to make an audience, which is a political poster and then works backwards. are no longer distributable, within the involvement. In the cinema it is a kind (laughter) system. How far can you go within the of “thing”, a screen with images It is amazing you know, we get system? Is it right to break from it and effecting a much more passive audience, letters every day to the personnel go outside it? Those were the questions with the makers thousands of miles manager. Kestrel is Janet in the office. I’m trying to raise. I think it is right to away. There is an element of truth in That’s it, unless we are actually make films for a working class audience what you say about naturalism and the shooting, when there are sixty people but that brings you back to the working class audience. Actually photo­ working one way or another, otherwise distributors. graphing people, everbody mentally it’s Janet. What happened with Family TG: It is certainly true that in the checks whether the character is natural Life, we were very lucky, it was just cinema in this country only a narrow in a way that they don’t in the theatre. before the National Film Finance range of subjects, and ways of treating There just isn’t a tradition of devices in Corporation got into terrible trouble them, are acceptable. So of all the films the cinema that relate to having a direct and they had a bit of money and they that one wants to make, and all the effect on an audience. One thing you financed the script, then they put 50% ways one wants to make them, only a mentioned, the juxtaposition of natu­ of the money up for the film, and Nat Unconscious, the electrodes are placed against her skull, and the doctor presses fraction could ever be done. ralistic scenes, can have an effect by Cohen of Tango-EMI put up the other the button KL: One tries to take into account the rubbing things together, you did a lot of 50%. The film cost £175,000. How else level of consciousness of the people who telly placing voice-over. But there is a can you make films? are going to see it, and their very limited range of equipment at your disposal in the cinema at the moment. JMG: And now the NFFC can’t put up expectations. While not pandering one the front money for scripts. starts from there to lead people to PW: The two are very different. The amount of investment required for a TG: We’re in trouble — trying to get certain conclusions, given that when new things going will be very difficult. people go to the cinema they are start. John can tour on a comparatively expecting what they have been led to small investment experimentally, also he The NFFC has been the only civilising expect. One doesn’t want to put a can confront an audience which, influence on British Films. We wouldn’t barrier between you and them by whatever it is doesn’t have the social have survived without it. adopting a form they will react against. composition of the West End audiences; AB: Have you lost money on all your the theatre is like that, and nobody films? JMG: There are two things — how far KL: On balance our ventures into do you think the working class is thinks that it should be reaching a gigantic mass audience. When you come feature films would show quite a wedded to that particular form and how healthy profit. much do you have to conform to the to the cinema you frequently hear the industry’s idea of a movie? On the first, reproach against lots of directors, that TG: We haven’t seen any of it. in television, where you’ve done a lot of they don’t reach a gigantic audience, JMG: Will your record make it easier for work Ken, do you find that the working that they are running away from it. In you to raise from money commercially? class response diminished with the the theatre you accept that you are only TG: Not really. Take Kes, once it amount of adventurousness you put going to have so many dozens of people started to do well, if we’d wanted to do into it? The Big Flame for example was there at a time. a film about a girl and a sparrow we certainly adventurous. KL: I’m not sure they do accept that. A could have got the money, (laughter) KL: It was very naturalistic. lot of the people who have moved out But who wants to do that? AB: What happens if a film starts to JMG: It wasn’t an intimate psycho­ from the West End are going to theatre drama. And the people in it were they want to be a popular experience. make money, do you see the money? constantly pushing against the form. PW: Popular is different from mass, TG: Look Anthony, very simply, what Her hands jerk as she has a short epileptic convulsion. KL: Well yes, obviously the biggest that’s where the thing about the screen happens is that of all the money that is response we’ve had to any film was is important. The theatre, even with a paid into the box office roughly a third . This was because little audience can be a popular goes back to the distributor and people identified with the family, not experience. The cinema doesn’t work two-thirds is kept by the exhibitor. On because we put up statistics about that way. that third he then takes off around 25 on the screen. On the way here John was saying to 30% as his expenses, of the rest he then charges publiciy, advertising and JMG: But Big Flame did have a built-in that 7/84 had follow-up discussions the cost of making prints. alienating device in the documentary after performances, could that be done way it was set in an industrial conflict, with films? KL: Those aren’t his expenses! it gave it an objectivity; you were JMG: There are special films, like TG: Of the remainder of that he starts always aware that a class issue was at educational ones, which are designed to to pay off the cost of making the film stake, not just the “problems of these be discussed. prior to the negative. Then of course particular men”, and the same is true of PW: Have you ever shown films like there is all the cost of the interest on Cathy Come Home, the documentary that? the money which has been borrowed to realism and the devices in the context of TG: We go whenever we can. That’s the make the film and which has a broke the funnelling dream, that you can do a film that will accumulated over the months, then effect. help to prise open the issue, for when all that has been paid off it is TG: It also had a big response because it everybody else to get in amongst it. called “going into profit” (laughter) and made people comfortably uncomfort­ That’s a smashing thing for a film to do. of that you may have a percentage. able. They felt worthy to be moved We’ll be going up to Newcastle when it PW: It’s like in Persia when the Shah having sat through it. So two bob for opens there. would give the Minister the money, he’d Shelter and that is alright, without KL: Let’s hope some of the people keep what he felt was right, he’d give putting any really difficult political there are from the local bins. the rest to the deputies and they’d keep thought into it. The thing to show, AB: What kind of response did you get what they felt was right, and so on, it which we didn’t do was to show some when was shown on filters down gradually until it gets to the relationship between that family and television? end of the chain, if there’s any left. The plug stops her from biting “her tongue. 15 minutes later she will wake the necessity to nationalise the land, TG: The letters divided fifty percent AB: The situation is scandalous. disorientated and bewildered. and, and, and, and; right? It should saying “Oh, the poor parents, with a girl TG: No, it’s just called capitalism. work on all of those levels so that it is like that, what a terrible time they That’s how it is. 22 7 Days 12 January 1972

television______It’s T im e 007 Was Shot Berger’s anti- Clark lecture by Peter Fuller RT critics feature in Private presentation: this can range from the E ye’s “Pseud’s Corner” slicing to details for mass reproduction on post card, through the jostling of Am ore than any other kind of images on the page of a colour supple­ writer. This is not surprising. The ment, to the clinical void of museums, business of writing and talking with their own artificial context. TV about Art in Britain has always opened the way for a whole new gamut been draped with spiels of of such distortions. Focusing on par­ ticular details could sabotage the artist’s mystification. intentions. Back-ground music, and Critics teach people to feel a items immediately preceding or vacuous reverence for paintings. following the showing of a picture, They encourage a spurious search profoundly change our responses to it. for hidden “beauty” by con­ Berger shows all this to us, and more. The mystifiers will not thank him for it, stantly referring to complex because he is giving away all the tricks aesthetic and compositional codes in their box. and precepts of their own He explains how the new media have creation altered our response to art — they have led to positive, as well as negative The they make is trying to changes in our perception. He uses TV do the picture's work for it verbally: a intelligently, and sceptically, himself, false meaningless function. So they spin revealing the cameras, stressing their 007 in bondage with Jill St John a yarn mysteries and religiosity, limitations, reminding the viewer that which icenses every image, and also he too is an arranger of images like the REDICTABLY, “Diamonds defends their territorial “rights” from rest of them. But it is easier to believe PAre For Ever” is doing great ignorant laymen. him, if only because he smashes the business at the Leicester Square This approach was epitomised in illusions perpetrated by other for so Odeon. Who would not want to Being the adventures of a young man long. Kenneth Clark's series, “Civilization” see a re-run of top-Sixties kitsch, shown on TV two years ago. Next Saturday, he talks about whose principal interests are rape, With his new series “Ways of Seeing”, women. He completely reverses the with Connery instead of the ill- John Berger goes for all this rubbish traditional concept of the nude, as fated Lazenby back in the title ultra-violence and Beethoven. with а razor strips it right back, he developed in Western art, by showing it role? And the book itself was one places talking about pictures on a to be a way of oppressing women, of of Fleming’s better 007 thrillers. scientific basis, derived from an under­ objectifying them, of depriving them of It was anti-black, and had several standing o f th e psychology of seeing, the possibility of nakedness. This is a and a correct historical perspective. programme which crashes through as peak moments of mini-sadism. At He do e s this by exposing the many cultural myths in half an hour as one point Mr Big, the (black) arch techniques which are available to those Clark managed to fabricate and re­ villain has Bond’s little finger who c h оose be dishonest, or un­ inforce in the whole of his interminable broken, “just as a minor deter­ scientific. is distorted through its series. rent” . Many of the better scenes were set in Harlem — and all Fleming’s racist obsessions and malodorous sexual fantasies gave the book a bit of pep. All this has gone in the film. Most of it is set in Las Vegas. There isn’t a black (post-Watts) to be seen. Worse still, there is no convincing villain of any sort. 007 films always depended on the combination of Connery’s vulgar charm, good technology, and a top-grade bad- man. For a time, at the end of the sixties the emphasis in villainy shifted from Russia to China: excluded from the UN, the Peoples’ Republic could safely be presented as pursuing its task of fom en­ ting world revolution. There was no villain like a Chinese villain. The Manchurian Candidate was the peak top specimen in this genre. No producer, in the age of the US-China raprochement, feels now inclined for this kind of casting. The rough rule of thumb is that all nations are eagerly questing for world peace. Such developments have left a grave lacuna. This is particularly telling in the Bond films. Fleming himself was an unrecon­ structed cold-warrior of the Alec Douglas-Home vintage. Even the switch to China made him uneasy. The solution in Diamonds Are For Ever is to bring on Blofeld again, hero-villain of OHMS, and STANLEY KUBRICK S You Only Live Twice. He is extremely unconvincing, and his tactics miserably incompetent. The plot is the old Edwardian stand-by, popularised by Sapper in The Final Count, “holding the world to ransom” via a laser-wielding satellite which consumes in its fiery rays the world’s stock of guided missiles. None of the participants in the film can, visibly, lend themselves to this ludicrous fantasy for a second, so the charm of the action has to rest on by-play: A Stanley Kubrick Production A CLOCKWORK ORANGE" Starring Malcolm McDowell fighting, fucking, and gambling. Patrick Magee • Adrienne Corri and Miriam Karlin • Screenplay by Stanley Kubrick There is a rather second-rate fight, a Based on the novel by Anthony Burgess • Produced and Directed by Stanley Kubrick cribbed car-chase a la Bullitt, and, on Executive Producers Max l. Raab and Si Litvinoff • From Warner Bros A Kinney Company the sex front, some very tepid cuddling Released by Columbia-Warner Distributors Ltd • Original Soundtrack recording on Werner Bros: K46127. between 007 and Jill St John. The sex action is very Fifties, as if the producers This astonishing critique of art and realism appeared in the January issue of the were out for a Royal Gala Showing or FROM JANUARY 13 W a rn e r Leicester Sq. 439 0791 Beano, which becomes, more than ever, essential reading were frightened of a Women’s Liberation Progs: 12.10 2.55 5.40 8.30 Fridays & Saturdays 11.20p.m. Sundays: 2.50 5.35 8.20 demonstration 23 7 Days 12 January 1972

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