Vol. 726 Wednesday No. 130 23 March 2011

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT

ORDER OF BUSINESS

Questions Extradition: Gary McKinnon Video Recordings Act 2010 Wales: Organ Donation Young People: Custody Hereditary Peer By-election Announcement Draft Defamation Bill Motion to Approve Code of Recommended Practice on Local Authority Publicity Order of Commitment Discharged Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 Motion to Approve Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (Consequential Amendments to the Mobile Homes Act 1983) Order 2011 Mobile Homes Act 1983 (Amendment of Schedule 1 and Consequential Amendments) (England) Order 2011 Mobile Homes Act 1983 (Jurisdiction of Residential Property Tribunals) (England) Order 2011 Motions to Approve Public Bodies Bill [HL] Report (1st Day) Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure Care of Cathedrals Measure Mission and Pastoral Measure Motions to Present for Royal Assent Public Bodies Bill [HL] Report (1st Day) (Continued)

Grand Committee Nine Statutory Instruments Considered in Grand Committee

Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page

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When the Chief Medical Officer chooses an appropriate House of Lords psychiatrist or a panel, it is essential that the psychiatrist is someone who specialises in adults with an autistic Wednesday, 23 March 2011. spectrum disorder. That is because to date, the solicitors who have seen Mr McKinnon at the behest of the 3pm Government have not been specialists, and at the end of their investigations have openly admitted that this Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Exeter. is not their specialist area.

Extradition: Gary McKinnon Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the sole grounds with which the Government are now concerned are Question Mr McKinnon’s medical condition and whether it would be an abuse of his human rights under the 3.06 pm European Convention on Human Rights to extradite Asked By Lord Maginnis of Drumglass him to the United States. Some noble Lords may wish to note that this is a case where the European Convention To ask Her Majesty’s Government what recent on Human Rights is at the centre of the issue. discussions they have had with the Government of the United States about the extradition of Gary Baroness Wilkins: My Lords, does the Minister McKinnon. accept that Gary McKinnon had a history of mental health issues prior to any of these legal issues? Indeed, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, we regularly there is a history of mental illness on both sides of the discuss a range of extradition matters with the United family going back three generations. It is not just a States authorities, who are anxious to see a conclusion matter of him having been diagnosed with Asperger’s to Mr McKinnon’s case. However, further consideration syndrome in September 2010. has been delayed because my right honourable friend the Home Secretary wishes, before deciding the case, Lord Wallace of Saltaire: It was August 2008, my to obtain an up-to-date assessment by medical experts Lords. I have seen all these pieces of evidence which recommended to her by the Chief Medical Officer, have been circulated widely among us. But this is an and Mr McKinnon has not yet granted medical consent extradition case and we have to be concerned with the for this to take place. legal process and the evidence presented to that process. This evidence has now been presented and we are Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: My Lords, I am grateful hoping that there can soon be an examination by to the Minister for that Answer, but it tells me little expert witnesses who can provide the basis on which more than I already know. Is it not ironic that a the Home Secretary and others can take a judgment. Parliament which has voted against the lengthy detention of criminals should keep a young man suffering from Lord Tebbit: My Lords, is the noble Lord aware the condition known as Asperger’s syndrome in that we are all sympathetic to him personally, for he is psychological torture for more than 3,300 days? Is it the victim of a very unfair, unbalanced extradition not time for the Home Office to liaise with those who treaty? If he has any trouble with the American authorities, have expertise in autism? Perhaps the department should will he tell them that he has no more confidence that go to the National Autistic Society and ask for a list of Mr McKinnon would get a fair trial there than some people with expertise in the area rather than relying on Americans had that IRA suspects would get a fair trial the normal line of, “Let’s see what the Chief Medical here when the extradition of IRA terrorists was refused Officer says”. by the United States on the basis that they could not get a fair trial in this country? Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, I am sorry that the noble Lord wishes to question the expertise of the Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the Extradition newly appointed Chief Medical Officer. Negotiations Act 2003 and the agreement with the United States are under way about the choice of an expert or a panel were, among other things, to deal with the problem of of experts, and we are assured by Mr McKinnon’s extraditing IRA suspects from the United States. We solicitors that they will consent to this. That is what we have to recognise that extradition is a process in which are waiting for. We have to recognise that these are there has to be mutual trust and respect between the complicated legal issues which have to be dealt with by legal authorities in different countries. This was to legal means. Further, perhaps I may remind noble improve extradition between the United States and Lords that Mr McKinnon was diagnosed with Asperger’s Britain and also between Britain and Canada, Australia, syndrome in August 2008. New Zealand and a number of other countries. There are, of course, those in Britain who do not think that Baroness Browning: My Lords, when I met it is possible to have a fair trial in the United States Mr McKinnon’s mother last week, she informed me and there are those in the United States who think that that his state of health is deteriorating all the time. I it is impossible to have a fair trial in the United hope that my noble friend will be concerned to learn Kingdom. We have, however, to respect each other’s that Mr McKinnon spends every day behind closed legal procedures within democratic countries governed curtains and does not participate in life as he used to. by the rule of law. 731 Extradition: Gary McKinnon[LORDS] Video Recordings Act 2010 732

Lord Morris of Aberavon: My Lords, are the I noted that the Minister said “by the summer”, but if Government giving any consideration to the fairness the evidence is collected earlier than that, will the of the extradition treaty and will they revisit it? Government institute the consultation as soon as possible?

Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the coalition Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lord Clement- agreement stated that there would be a review of Jones is absolutely right. We have read the results of extradition arrangements and in September 2010 the the Mumsnet survey with interest. It presented an Government announced that the right honourable interesting snapshot of views on some of the issues. Sir Scott Baker would lead a review, which is now well We hope that people will respond as well to our larger, under way. That review panel will visit Brussels about more detailed consultation in due course. We note that the European arrest warrant and Washington about the survey did not reveal the possible criminal sanctions the extradition treaty with the United States in May, that already exist. Many noble Lords across the House and it will report this summer. That panel will cover are interested in this subject. I acknowledge that my the breadth of the Secretary of State’s discretion in an noble friend has been pressing for legislation to remove extradition case, the operation of the European arrest exemptions for a long time. If we can get the evidence warrant, whether the US/UK extradition treaty is earlier, we will do so. unbalanced, and whether requesting states should be required to provide prima facie evidence. This is a very Lord Gordon of Strathblane: My Lords, while I am thorough review by three respected barristers. happy to hear that a consultation will be launched by the summer, is it not rather surprising that it has taken Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: My Lords, quite so long? It was after all in March 2010 that the accepting the requirements of the extradition treaty Government gave an undertaking, as a result of which and given that the Home Office already has reports on some of us withdrew an amendment, to launch a Gary McKinnon’s case from two of the best known consultation on this issue. Although that was under a experts on Asperger’s and autism—Professor Jeremy previous Government, it is largely a non-party issue Turk and Professor Declan Murphy, both of the Institute and surely it should have happened by now. of Psychiatry and both of whom are regularly relied upon by Her Majesty’s Government in relation to these conditions—why has it concluded that it needs a Baroness Rawlings: The noble Lord is absolutely further medical report, and why was it originally looking right that it has taken quite a long time, and it has for a non-specialist report rather than specialist reports, done so because DCMS officials started work on the which we now understand the Chief Medical Officer is paper with no proper evidence base. For any videos hoping to provide? and DVDs that might be affected by any change in the current set-up, an assessment is vital for proper and Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, it is for precisely proportionate consideration of options. The noble that reason that the Home Office has asked another Lord will be pleased to know that we have been department, the Department of Health, and its Chief working with a number of industry sources and looking Medical Officer for their own, more independent opinion. into other sources of information and research to try to obtain the evidence as soon as possible. Video Recordings Act 2010 Baroness Howe of Idlicote: My Lords, although we Question are all obviously sorry that there has been a delay, does the Minister welcome the best practice that is 3.15 pm already being followed by those companies which are Asked By Lord Clement-Jones using the BBFC’s online classification services to protect children and empower parents? Those companies include To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they not only organisations such as Paramount, Universal will launch a consultation on the current exemptions and Tesco, which perhaps we would expect, but also from regulation under Section 2 of the Video companies that we have heard rather less of such as Recordings Act 2010. Harmony and Darker Enterprises.

Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, Her Majesty’s Baroness Rawlings: The noble Baroness, Lady Howe, Government will launch a consultation paper by the has been involved with this matter for quite a long summer. Publication has unfortunately been delayed time and participated in the Digital Economy Act. It because of the absence of evidence and statistics on is important to note that any video that benefits from the issue. Time is needed to secure the relevant evidence an exemption, whether it is music, sport, religious or a and statistics in order to make the base of evidence documentary, loses the exemption if it contains material credible. that is sexual, grossly violent or criminal. Lord Clement-Jones: My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that helpful reply, but this is unfinished Lord Renton of Mount Harry: My Lords, will the business from last year’s Digital Economy Act. As my internet be fully covered in these important consultations? noble friend will have seen, the recent parents’ online poll on the Mumsnet website demonstrates conclusively Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lord Renton the importance that parents attach to proper classification raises a good point. The internet is not covered in the of some of those products which are currently exempt. Video Recordings Act, which applies only to physical 733 Video Recordings Act 2010[23 MARCH 2011] Wales: Organ Donation 734 copies of video material available to buy or rent. The Government worked closely with the Assembly Video Recordings Act dates from the early 1980s, Government to enable the proposed legislative competence before the possibility of the internet as we know it now order to be put forward to Parliament for pre-legislative was even considered. I remember it well because I was scrutiny earlier this year. Following the result of the on the British Board of Video Classification at that referendum in Wales on 3 March, the Government time, from the start and for several years. have now received notification from the Assembly Government that they have withdrawn the proposed Baroness Jones of Whitchurch: My Lords, does the legislative competence order relating to organ donation. Minister agree that in the 25 years since the Video Recordings Act was first passed, the content of video games and other exempt video material has changed Lord Wigley: My Lords, I am grateful for that reply. beyond recognition? Is she therefore concerned that Does the Minister accept that the reason for withdrawing this means that inappropriate and potentially harmful the order was because the Assembly now has full content in such works is now legally being supplied to legislative competence in areas dealing with health children? If so, does she understand the urgency of the and that after the elections on 5 May it may well want matter? to pursue this matter within its own competence? If that is the case, can he give an assurance that the Baroness Rawlings: I agree with the noble Baroness, Government will not to try to intervene? Given the Lady Jones. This issue is being researched and there uncertainties and doubts the Government had about are varied opinions. However, we can all agree that human rights and cross-border issues, can he give an some material is, quite simply, inappropriate for children. assurance that they will not prevent the Assembly The consultation will consider how best to achieve the from moving ahead, if it so wishes, to legislate on the position where children are not exposed to inappropriate question of presumed consent to enable far more material. organs to be available for those who need them? Lord Storey: I am grateful for the noble Baroness’s replies but I am a little perplexed as to what further Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, I understand evidence is required. Does she know what that evidence that the current Welsh Assembly Government withdrew is and how long the wait will be? This concerns not the current legislative competence order on the basis only parents but teachers and society as a whole. of the change that is about to take place as a result of the referendum. They have indicated that they look Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend is right. It is forward to the Welsh Assembly Government formed taking a little time because all these people have to be after the elections bringing forward their own legislation. consulted. The matter was raised in the debate on the It would not be for this Government to prevent that Digital Economy Act 2010. All these people need to legislation going forward. However, under Section 112 be consulted in order to get the right answer. of the Government of Wales Act 2006 it is a matter for the Counsel General for Wales and the Attorney-General, Baroness Gardner of Parkes: My Lords, for some following the passage of a Bill, to consider whether reason the Digital Economy Act 2010 took out some that Bill should be referred to the Supreme Court on of the words about a video game and put them back in any issue of competence. I exercise a similar responsibility, again in another category. As I understand it, the along with the Attorney-General and the Lord Advocate, amendments that were passed then are still not in in relation to Scotland. These are often complex matters force. Will the consultation consider how the Digital and it would be wrong to hypothesise about a Bill Economy Act has affected the other Act? which may not come to pass and when we have not yet seen its final shape or form. Baroness Rawlings: My noble friend Lady Gardner raises a good point. Video games were removed by Pan European Game Information legislation, which Lord Roberts of Llandudno: My Lords, as the House brought the standard for video games into the Act. might know, there have been uncertainties about cross- The change to the Video Recordings Act 1984 still border issues. For instance, for years neurology services remains to be done. have been sent from north Wales to Liverpool. Are they now to go to south Wales, when it takes far longer to go there? Furthermore, have we resolved the cross- Wales: Organ Donation border situation not only in the UK but also, in our Question relationship with Europe, the possibilities of cross-country involvement in Europe? 3.23 pm Asked By Lord Wigley Lord Wallace of Tankerness: MyLords,aswedo To ask Her Majesty’s Government what not yet have any legislation, the first part of my noble representations they have received from the Welsh friend’s questions about the provision of services may Assembly Government concerning possible changes be premature. I simply observe that practical issues to the law in Wales relating to organ donation. could arise if such legislation were to come to pass, given that the Human Tissue Act 2004 and the equivalent The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace legislation for Scotland means that in England, Northern of Tankerness): The Welsh Assembly Government made Ireland, Scotland and at the present time in Wales clear to the Government their intention to proceed there is no presumed consent. There has to be active with proposals on organ donation in Wales, and the consent. Therefore, if there was a donation from Wales, 735 Wales: Organ Donation[LORDS] Young People: Custody 736

[LORD WALLACE OF TANKERNESS] powers from Westminster to Wales? Are we not witnessing the question would arise whether that was allowed to a ratchet of powers being transferred to both Wales be used in other parts of the United Kingdom if there and Scotland, which will inevitably lead to them both had only been presumed consent. becoming independent? With regard to Europe, there has been a recent EU directive, to be implemented by August 2012, that Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, given that, requires member states to verify donor or donor family during the association that I have had as a spokesman consent. It recognises that different states have different in your Lordships’ House for the Wales Office, the opt-in, opt-out systems of consent. There are no specific acronym WAG for Welsh Assembly Government has plans for a European donor card, but member states been one that I am familiar with, it is not something are working together to raise the important profile of that has happened since the referendum. donation and to encourage more people to support or Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, I realise that this agree to donation. Question concerns Wales and the legislation for presumed consent, but does the Minister or the Government Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, will the agree that it would be a good thing to have presumed Minister explain what work is currently being undertaken consent in England? to ensure that where Welsh patients are transferred to ITU beds, that system would be able to continue in the Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, as I indicated future, and how IT intensive care beds are being in my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings increased? A shortage of intensive care beds across Heath, this matter has been looked at. Under the both England and Wales is in part responsible for previous Government, an independent organ donation some of the low donation rates, so conflicts may arise task force was set up. After doing considerable research when Welsh patients are in English intensive care beds. and looking at the effects in other countries, it reached the consensus that moving at this time to a system of Lord Wallace of Tankerness: My Lords, it is difficult presumed consent would not be effective and that far to speculate about what might happen, although if more effective would be to take some of the measures there was opt-out legislation in force in Wales, for that I have already described—namely, improving the example, and a person ordinarily resident in Wales infrastructure for donation and for raising the profile was in hospital in England or another part of the of donation. In the three years since that report came United Kingdom, would somebody have to look up out there has been an increase in donations by 28 per not only the donor register for the whole of the United cent. Kingdom but also a possible opt-out register for Wales? There could be practical difficulties. No doubt that matter will be addressed should any legislation come Young People: Custody before the National Assembly for Wales. Question It is also important to stress the fact that, following on from the independent organ donation task force 3.31 pm report in January 2008, considerable efforts are being Asked By Baroness Walmsley made to raise the profile of donation and to put in To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will place trained nursing and clinical staff who can take respond to the report by the Office of the Children’s on the important task of talking to relatives. Indeed, Commissioner on the restraint of young people in since the recommendations of that report were custody. implemented, donations have increased by some 28 per cent. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): My Lords, we consider this a thought- Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, is that not provoking piece of research that will be fed into our the point? Even with presumed consent, the family wider-ranging independent review on restraint. I should will always have to be consulted. Therefore the advantage point out, however, that the authors themselves say of presumed consent is often overstated. The key is that the size of the sample of young people they talked having campaigns and information available to encourage to—89—was not high enough to be statistically significant people to be willing donors in the first place. and therefore not necessarily representative of young people across the secure estate. Lord Wallace of Tankerness: I entirely agree with the noble Lord. Indeed, there were two reports in 2008 Baroness Walmsley: I thank my noble friend for his from the organ donation task force. One dealt with the reply. In his review, will he bear in mind the inconsistency infrastructure arrangements to which I referred, and of the types of restraint and pain distraction that can the other looked at presumed consent. The latter be used in different kinds of children’s settings, with report concluded that the case was not made at the an objective of producing consistent standards to the present time to move to a system of presumed consent, highest international level and compliant with the UN but rather emphasised the importance of the infrastructure Convention on the Rights of the Child? What arrangements and raising the profile. To date I think arrangements are being made to provide independent that has borne some fruit. legal advice to the young people who gave an account to UserVoice, which was published in the report, of Lord Hamilton of Epsom: Can my noble friend tell treatments that might be unlawful, to ensure that they me how long the Welsh Assembly has been a Government? have the advice that they need to be able to challenge Did this follow the referendum that transferred further those treatments? 737 Young People: Custody[23 MARCH 2011] Draft Defamation Bill 738

Lord McNally: My Lords, on the first part of the Lord McNally: The Government’s policy is as in the noble Baroness’s question, the whole thrust of Bill. An amendment on it is to be debated on Monday. departmental policy is to try to ensure that in all parts This is far off the question before the House. Two old of the secure estate there is consistency of training and experienced campaigners such as the noble Lord, Lord application in these matters. We are continuing to take Bach, and the noble Baroness know full well when advice on this. On the matter of legal advice, the they are wandering wide of the mark. I will see them YouthJustice Board commissioned Voice and Barnardo’s on Monday. to provide an advocacy service in every part of the secure estate. Secure children’s homes also have advocacy Baroness Linklater of Butterstone: My Lords, this services under contracts held by the relevant local report by the Children’s Commissioner is most powerful authorities. in its first-hand descriptions of how restraint techniques in secure settings are actually experienced by children Lord Bach: My Lords, does the Minister agree that themselves. It makes quite distressing reading. It is the Youth Justice Board is a crucial player in this followed by the commissioner’s unambiguous whole difficult area of young people and custody? The recommendation that the use of pain to enforce control Government intend to abolish the YJB and take its and order should be prohibited and that internationally functions into the Ministry. The Minister uses the agreed standards, as set out by the UN and the UN strange but certainly novel argument that it should be Convention on the Rights of the Child, should be abolished not because it has been a failure but because used as a benchmark. Will the Minister please undertake it has been too successful. Is it not time to stop this to ensure that there is rigorous, thorough and better nonsense and accept that Her Majesty’s Government training of all staff in the children’s secure estate who have got this wrong and that the independent Youth deal with these most damaged and difficult children, Justice Board should be allowed to get on with its vital so that the use of pain during restraint ceases? Will he job? undertake, with the help and advice of the YJB, to ensure that greater consistency is established across Lord McNally: That is a little wide of the mark, but the estate and that more effective and rigorous monitoring I am very happy to say that we will return to this is in place throughout? matter on Monday next, when I am sure that that question will be in the noble Lord’s opening speech. Lord McNally: I fully appreciate and have benefited He can look forward to my response on what the from my noble friend’s deep knowledge of these affairs. Government’s policy will be. However, as I said earlier, I also have a duty of care to staff and other inmates and the people she refers to as “children” are often 16 or 17 years of age, six foot in Baroness Stern: Could I ask the Minister, in order height and 14 stone in weight. In such circumstances, to put this matter beyond doubt, whether the technique keeping a safe and secure estate becomes a real problem. of inflicting pain on young people to make them That is the problem that we are wrestling with in the comply, by hitting them on their nose, has now been study that we are undertaking. banned, and whether the techniques of bending back the thumb and hitting them in the ribs is still being used or whether those have also now been stopped? Hereditary Peers By-election Announcement Lord McNally: The nose technique has certainly been banned. My knowledge of the other two pain 3.39 pm techniques that she mentioned is not as in-depth. However, I must emphasise that the whole thrust of The Clerk of the Parliaments announced the result of advice and development, not only under this Government the by-election to elect a hereditary Peer in the place of but over the past two or three years, has been, as I said Lord Strabolgi in accordance with Standing Order 10. in my opening remarks, to make sure that there is Four hundred and fourteen Lords completed valid ballot good training and consistency of staff attitudes in this papers. A paper setting out the complete results is matter. It is a difficult matter and I understand the available in the Printed Paper Office. That paper gives concern, but it is a concern that I have detected in the the number of votes cast for each candidate. The successful staff and administration of the secure estate as well as candidate was Viscount Hanworth. around this House. The big problem, as successive Ministers have found, is that we also have a duty of care to staff and other inmates, as well as the desire to Draft Defamation Bill secure a safe and secure estate. Dealing with some of Motion to Approve the most difficult and complex young people is very difficult, but reliance on administering pain is a very Moved by Lord Strathclyde last resort in very difficult circumstances. That it is expedient that a joint committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the report on the draft Defamation Bill presented to Minister referred to the fact that government policy both Houses on 15 March (Cm 8020) and that the on the YouthJustice Board will be revealed on Monday. committee should report on the draft Bill by 19 July Is that because the Government do not have a policy 2011. today, or would he care to answer the question from my noble friend Lord Bach? Motion agreed. 739 Local Authority Publicity[LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 740

Code of Recommended Practice on Local Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, this group of Authority Publicity amendments represents a set of minor and technical changes to the Bill. The amendments tidy up the Order of Commitment Discharged drafting following the addition of new Clause 16 at Moved by Lord Strathclyde Committee stage. It may be helpful for me to remind the House that this clause, which was the product of That the order of 10 March referring the Code extensive collaboration between the Government and of Recommended Practice to a Grand Committee noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Lester of be discharged. Herne Hill and my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, imposes restrictions on the use Motion agreed. of the powers in the Bill by Ministers. Amendments 1, 22, 28, 35 and 42 remove the paving Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) references to Clause 16 in Clauses 1 to 5, which are no (England and Wales) (Amendment) longer necessary and, as the powers in Clauses 1 to Regulations 2011 5 are subject to other restrictions in the Bill, are potentially misleading. Amendments 90A and 90B Motion to Approve make minor amendments to Clause 16, making it Moved by Lord McNally explicit that the clause applies to the main order-making powers contained in Clauses 1 to 5. As the Government That the draft Regulations laid before the House now intend to remove Clause 6 and Schedule 6 from on 2 February be approved. the Bill, our adjustments to Clause 16 do not apply to Relevant documents: 16th Report from the Joint that clause. Amendment 90C is a drafting amendment, Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in which will place Clause 16 directly after the main Grand Committee on 16 March. order-making powers in the Bill. I beg to move.

Motion agreed. Amendment 1 agreed. Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 Amendment 2 had been retabled as Amendment 69D. (Consequential Amendments to the Mobile Homes Act 1983) Order 2011 Amendment 3 Moved by Lord Newton of Braintree 3: Clause 1, page 1, line 6, at end insert “or to another public Mobile Homes Act 1983 (Amendment of body whether or not listed in this Act” Schedule 1 and Consequential Amendments) (England) Order 2011 Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, having described myself towards the end of the previous set of proceedings on this as deferential, docile and indeed passive because Mobile Homes Act 1983 (Jurisdiction of I had moved only one amendment—and that was Residential Property Tribunals) (England) really a motherhood amendment—I thought that I Order 2011 might be a bit more proactively docile in this set of proceedings and so have tabled a few amendments. Motions to Approve This one is singularly docile, because all I wish to know is a bit more about the definition in Clause 1 of 3.40 pm “eligible person”, which is a bit obscure to me as a Moved by Baroness Hanham mere reader of English. The question of whether or That the draft Orders laid before the House on not a public body is or is not listed in this Bill—and 31 January be approved. there is a reference to that sort of thing somewhere in all this—has become a matter of growing importance. Relevant documents: 15th Report from the Joint There has been a certain amount of shrinkage in the Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in number of bodies covered by this policy in the past six Grand Committee on 2 March. months. Starting off at nearly 1,000 in October’s Motions agreed. Statement, the figure came down to less than 500— probably rather a lot less—when we saw the Bill. It has now come down by at least another half to something Public Bodies Bill [HL] that is not much more than 150. I could make some Report (1st Day) unfriendly remarks but I will just note that this is a remarkable change over a relatively short period. What 3.40 pm effect does it have on “eligible person” and, in particular, does “eligible person” cover public bodies whether or not they are listed in the Bill? Clause1:Powertoabolish 3.45 pm Amendment 1 Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, it is fortunate Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach that I have an opportunity to respond to my noble 1: Clause 1, page 1, line 3, leave out “Subject to section 16,” friend so quickly. He has drawn a portrait of the Bill 741 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 742 that I scarcely recognise. There are a number of bodies Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, I wish that we reflected on and considered in Committee, but to degroup Amendment 62 from this group. That will we are still on track for the reform of the public bodies enable us to debate that amendment when we deal sector and we have, I think, the support of the whole with Clause 8, which is where it more appropriately House on the general terms in which that project is belongs. I regret that I have not had much time to do being undertaken. this; I told officials but it may not have got through to My noble friend’s Amendments 3 and 23 are designed the Minister. to amend Clauses 1 and 2 to make it clear that an I welcome all of the changes made to the Bill but order made under those clauses would transfer a function there remains a major absence of a fundamental element. to another body regardless of whether that body was That is the purpose of the bodies whose existence, listed in the Bill. My noble friend is right to assert that, structure, functions or funding are to be changed. This in many cases, it may be desirable that functions are amendment is about adding to the matters to be transferred to an existing public body from a body considered when exercising any of the powers in the that is abolished or merged. However, I can confirm Bill that, that this is already provided for in the Bill. As Clause “the Minister must have regard to the aims, objectives or functions 1(3)(b) makes clear, the definition of “eligible person”, of the body where these are specified in legislation”. to whom a function can be transferred, includes, Without such a requirement in the Bill, Ministers will “any other person exercising public functions”. have to consider only either accountability to Ministers I assure my noble friend that this definition has been or efficiency, effectiveness and economy. These are drafted to include public bodies both within and outside laudable aims but they miss the fundamental point the scope of the Bill—bodies that, by their very nature, that these bodies were set up by primary legislation exercise public functions by virtue of statute or royal and have statutory duties or powers. As the Bill stands charter. at the moment, as long as consultation takes place, the Noble Lords will be aware that some public functions Minister can do what he will, without having regard to are carried out by non-statutory bodies, such as most the original purpose and objectives for which the body advisory NDPBs, many of which are Crown bodies was created. and legally part of their parent department. It would I do not maintain that all functions laid down in be possible to transfer statutory functions to such law, or all bodies, have to continue unchanged for all bodies by two mechanisms. First, the function could time. However, I do maintain that if this legislation is be transferred to a Minister under Clause 1(3)(a), to be used as proposed—to alter what has been laid provided that such a transfer was permissible within down in law—the Minister should have regard to the the restrictions set out in the Bill, such as those in functions, duties and powers of each body where Clause 16 concerning the independence of certain statute has defined these. Therefore, I should be grateful functions. Secondly, a function could be abolished in if the Minister could indicate whether the Government statute but replicated using existing prerogative powers. will be willing to accept this amendment now or when This is the process envisaged for the Valuation Tribunal we come to Clause 8. I am absolutely confident that Service, for example, the functions of which will be the intention was never to undermine the purpose of replicated by the Tribunals Service as an executive any of these organisations, but solely to make them agency of the Ministry of Justice. In each case, the work better for the ends that Parliament has determined. Government expect that the explanatory document I beg to move. provided with the draft order will provide clarity regarding any changes in the exercise of public functions. In the Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am very light of this explanation, I trust that my noble friend glad to support my noble friend in her endeavours in will feel able to withdraw his amendment. this regard. As the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, suggested, the Opposition have always made clear that we have Lord Newton of Braintree: Unless the opposition no objection to the principal aim of this Bill. It is right Front Bench wishes to come in, I will give an immediate that public bodies should be reviewed from time to demonstration of my docility and deference by endorsing time. The concern has always been about the draconian entirely my noble friend’s comments about the Valuation powers that were given to Ministers, particularly in the Tribunal Service, which belongs in the unified Tribunals draft of the Bill that we debated in Committee. We are Service—anybody who is harbouring hopes of my very pleased about the removal of Schedule 7 from the support for leaving it out of the Bill had better abandon Bill, and about the acceptance of the amendment that them. Meanwhile, in light of the charming reassurances was moved in Committee on the restriction of ministerial that my noble friend has given me, I beg leave to powers in Clause 16. That is a very welcome addition withdraw the amendment and claim another little to the safeguards that are contained in the Bill. round of brownie points. We could, however, go a little further, as my noble Amendment 3 withdrawn. friend suggests. She makes the very important point that the bodies that we are dealing with, and the responsibilities that they have been given, were determined Amendment 4 by Parliament in primary legislation. In using the Bill Moved by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town as is intended—to abolish in some cases and merge in 4: Clause 1, page 1, line 13, at end insert— others—it seems right that, as my noble friend’s “( ) In considering whether to exercise the powers under amendment suggests, Ministers should, subsection (1), the Minister must have regard to the aims, objectives “have regard to the aims, objectives or functions of the body or functions of the body where these are specified in legislation.” where these are specified in legislation”. 743 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 744

[LORD HUNT OF KINGS HEATH] capacity of Ministers with regard to the independent The powers that are given to Ministers are still exercise of some public functions. considerable, albeit that welcome safeguards have been I hope that this provides significant reassurance to given. My noble friend’s amendment would be very the noble Baroness in relation to some of the bodies to helpful in providing yet another safeguard. which she referred in Committee. The matters and purpose in the revised Clause 8—the requirement to Lord Newton of Braintree: I support that. The noble justify in an explanatory document why an order is Baroness and I have not conspired on, but discussed, being brought forward—and the revised restrictions in various matters of interest to us both on the Bill. She Clause 16 represent an effective and comprehensive has a point and I hope that my noble friend will way to limit ministerial power and require a clear respond constructively. explanation of the reasoning for orders in relation to the existing functions and objectives of a body listed Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I would never wish to do in the schedule. This is done in a way that also protects other than respond constructively to an amendment ministerial discretion on how functions are delivered. from the noble Baroness. I thank her for tabling these The amendments do not add to this. I ask the noble amendments and for giving us a chance to debate Baroness to withdraw her amendment. them. As she will know, the Government have indeed tabled their own amendments to Clause 8. They address 4pm the problem that her amendments seek to address. Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I thank my noble These amendments to Clauses 1 to 6 specifically friend Lord Hunt and also the noble Lord, Lord require a Minister to, Newton, for their support. I accept that there has been “have regard to the aims, objectives or functions of the body a lot of movement, particularly on the issues of where these are specified in legislation”, independence and the limitations on ministerial powers. before making orders. I recognise the motivation behind On the consumer landscape work that is being done, it the amendments, because they speak to the very will be the civil servants who draft the consultation considerations that form part of the decision-making and the responses to that and therefore guidance to process during a review of public bodies. In considering them to have regard to functions will be very important. whether a public body is required, the Government I will return to this matter when we debate Clause 8, must first consider whether its functions are needed, which specifies what needs to be considered. In the and then consider whether those functions should be mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. exercised at arm’s length from government. This process lies at the heart of the public bodies review to which Amendment 4 withdrawn. the Bill relates. However, I do not believe that these amendments would add any protection or clarity in practice. In this Schedule1:Powertoabolish: bodies and offices context, I note that your Lordships’ House has recognised that the Bill has moved on. Indeed, the noble Lord, Amendment 5 Lord Hunt, commented on the way in which the Bill Moved by Baroness Quin moved on a great deal at the Committee stage and 5: Schedule 1, page 15, leave out lines 5 to 9 since then in the amendments that the Government have tabled, particularly since amendments of this nature were first debated in late November. It seems a Baroness Quin: My Lords, Amendment 5 relates to long time ago. the advisory committees on pesticides and hazardous For example, the removal of Schedule 7 and Clause 11 substances. The Minister will remember that we debated has greatly reduced the scope of the Bill and a number these committees in Committee. A number of questions of important restrictions on ministerial powers have were asked by my noble friends Lord Whitty, Lord been introduced. In this new context, these amendments Knight and Lord Berkeley, and by me. Since we feel are not necessary. The Government envisage that the that our questions were not properly answered, we will purpose of the Bill is to support the improvement of take this opportunity to press the Minister for further public functions by making changes to public bodies. information. This is captured in our new amendment to Clause 8, My noble friend Lord Whitty asked why the two Amendment 60A. In deciding whether to make an bodies had been chosen. He mentioned a number of order for this purpose, it is not conceivable that a other bodies that have similar functions. He was not Minister would not have considered the aims, objectives advocating that they should be abolished, but was or functions of that body, including whether they questioning whether the Government were being remain necessary or whether any improvement could consistent. The bodies concerned deal with very sensitive be made in their delivery. public issues—pesticides and hazardous substances—that The requirement to lay an explanatory document raise concerns for us all. They have done a good job in setting out the rationale and justification for the order dealing with these issues, and have impressive will require a Minister clearly to account for his reasoning arrangements for the accountability of their proceedings in this regard, and the capacity of Parliament to select and the publication of their decisions, including an enhanced scrutiny procedure for the order will give electronically on websites. both Houses the opportunity fully to consider the My noble friends and I also felt that the issue went Government’s assessment. Furthermore, the addition beyond the two bodies to wider issues about the role of of Clause 16 places significant restrictions on the advisory committees and the role of independent advice 745 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 746 to Ministers. All of us who spoke strongly stressed I think that the noble Baroness will be aware of the this. The Minister acknowledged that the committees Written Ministerial Statement which my right honourable had provided independent, expert and impartial advice friend the Secretary of State gave on 26 January in to Governments of all political persuasions. As he another place, and which I believe I will have repeated knows, Ministers are required to consult these bodies as a Written Ministerial Statement in this House, on in certain circumstances. Will those requirements to developments relating to the Science Advisory Council, consult on such issues remain in the new structures which provides advice to Defra. The new arrangements that the Government are proposing? How will the new announced by the Secretary of State will maintain and structures be better than what is already in place, given enhance the independence and quality of the science that it seems that no money is being saved in the and scientific advice underpinning policy. The Science process? We are aware of how valuable the work of the Advisory Council and the Defra Chief Scientific committees has been up to now. How will openness, Adviser—I pay tribute to all the work that he has done independence and accountability be strengthened by for us—along with the chief scientific officers in all the any of the arrangements? We urge the Minister to departments and the Government’s own Chief Scientific reply more fully this time to the questions that I have Adviser working together will provide oversight of all raised, that others may raise and that were raised in the Government’s and all Defra’s scientific committees, Committee. I beg to move. as well as challenge and scrutinise their work. We believe that this will yield a greater and more co-ordinated level of evidence assurance to meet Defra’s needs. All The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Defra’s scientific expert bodies, including the three Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs committees covered by the amendment, will, we believe, (Lord Henley): My Lords, I hope that I can give a benefit from that approach. reasonable assurance to the noble Baroness when I set out our policy and show how we wish to be consistent I turn to one or two specific questions asked by the in these matters. I hope that I will be able to reassure noble Baroness. She asked how those scientific her that what we are doing is not purely about saving communities could work better than their predecessors. money, although again I remind her that where money I assure her that there was a consultation at the end of can be saved, it should be. I think that even she would last year on the government code of practice for accept that point. scientific advisory committees, and the new arrangements The noble Baroness’s amendment would prevent for expert scientific committees will be aligned with the Government abolishing the Advisory Committee the evolution of that code. Moreover, within Defra we on Hazardous Substances, the Advisory Committee are putting in place enhanced arrangements for our on Pesticides and the Advisory Committee on Pesticides Chief Scientific Adviser to have oversight of, and offer for Northern Ireland prior to reconstituting them as support to, all Defra expert scientific committees with expert scientific communities. I noted very carefully assistance from our Science Advisory Council. They the points made by the noble Baroness and others. She will report through our chief scientific officer to Ministers. mentioned her noble friends Lord Whitty, Lord Knight As I said, that was announced in another place by my and Lord Berkeley, who debated these matters in right honourable friend on 26 January. Committee. I was able, I hope, to give some reassurance on the key concerns expressed on that occasion. I am As I said, some 18 bodies were identified in the happy to do so again and I start off by doing just that. Defra scientific advisory landscape. After further analysis, the likely position is that six of those will be deemed to There is absolutely no government agenda to restrict be scientific and advisory: the Advisory Committee on the flow and independence of impartial scientific advice Hazardous Substances, the Advisory Committee on to Ministers and others on the crucial matter of hazardous Pesticides, the Air Quality Expert Group, the National substances or pesticides. We want that independent Standing Committee on Farm Animal Genetic Resources, advice, particularly for our negotiations with Europe, and the pesticides committee and the Veterinary Residues because obviously we have EU bodies that deal with Committee. Three will be retained as NDPBs: the these important matters. I am thinking about problems Advisory Committee on Releases to the Environment, that we are currently having in negotiations with Europe the Science Advisory Council at Defra and the Veterinary about certain sprays that can be used on bracken, on Products Committee. Others will be transferred elsewhere, which Europe seems to have a different view from and others which are no longer necessary will be ours. Bracken seems to present a problem for the abolished. Some will be retained but are no longer United Kingdom but does not seem to bother much of deemed to be science or advisory—for example, the the rest of Europe, where there is no bracken. However, Advisory Committee on Packaging, which relates to it could have very serious consequences. waste. We want the proposed successor bodies to operate independently. We want them to continue to be able to Obviously, we are taking a different approach with put advice directly to Ministers and to be open in how different committees. That, I hope, will explain to the they work and how that work is reported—for example, noble Baroness why we are dealing with these three on their respective websites. However, the most important committees in this manner. I hope, with those assurances, point that I want to get across is that we also want which I appreciate I am repeating from our previous them to work more effectively. Our proposals for these debate on these matters, that the noble Baroness will committees are consistent with the approach that we feel able to accept that we as Ministers, we as the are taking to all of Defra’s 18 scientific and technical Government and we as a department will still have the advisory bodies. That is quite a large number of bodies appropriate and necessary advice. I therefore hope that we are dealing with. that she will feel able to withdraw her amendment. 747 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 748

Baroness Quin: My Lords, I am grateful to the Seeds Tribunal, or PVST, into Schedule 1. I am happy Minister for replying to this amendment and giving us to set out the reasons behind that. The PVST was set more information than was given last time. I do not up in 1964 under the Plant Varieties and Seeds Act. Its think that it was just a question of repeating what we function is to hear appeals against decisions relating heard earlier—indeed, he himself referred to the Written to plant breeders’ rights, national listing of seed varieties Statement that occurred after our first debates on this and forest reproductive material. subject way back at the end of November. He has The body has not sat since the mid-1980s—it might given us more of an idea of his and his department’s be another of the dead parrots that we discussed overall approach to advisory committees. We were earlier. That is largely because other dispute resolution very concerned that it just seemed to be a case of measures exist in legislation which have proved effective. chopping here and there without a coherent framework. For example, there is provision for persons affected by I would, however, have liked more assurances about a decision to list a variety to make written and oral openness and public availability of advice and submissions to the Secretary of State. If this does not documentation, in the way that the advisory committees resolve a dispute, an appeal may be made to the have operated up until now. tribunal. Similar provisions exist elsewhere in legislation I hope that our debates on this subject will be noted covering early resolution of other disputes within the in another place in case there are issues about the PVST’s remit. system which the Government are proposing that Matters covered on appeal are likely to be very Members in the other place might like to explore in technical and could include, for instance, proposals to some detail. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. add a genetically modified variety to the national list, thus permitting marketing of its seed in the United Amendment 5 withdrawn. Kingdom. The tribunal therefore has an important function as the final arbiter in cases of dispute, and we Amendment 6 propose to retain those functions to ensure that rights of appeal are not lost. Moved by Lord Henley Although we propose to retain the functions of the 6: Schedule 1, page 15, line 10, at end insert “for areas in body, the Government’s policy is to centralise the England” administration of tribunals and to reduce the number of individual tribunals. For that reason, we propose to Lord Henley: My Lords, I shall speak also to transfer the remit and function of the PVST to the Amendments 8, 11, 14 and 15. Amendments 6, 8, 11 First-tier Tribunal of the Ministry of Justice’s Tribunals and 15 will remove from Ministers of the Crown the Service. This means that the PVST would be abolished power to abolish certain environmental bodies separately as a separate body but a specialist tribunal would still constituted for areas in Wales: the Welsh Agricultural be convened as necessary to deal with appeals. Hence, Dwelling House Advisory Committee; the Agricultural we seek to include it in Schedule 1. The PVST was Wages Committee, the Environmental Protection Advisory originally included in Schedule 7, which we all remember, Committee, established under Section 12 of the because when the Bill was drafted there was some Environment Act 1995; and the regional and local question about the appropriate legislative means to fisheries advisory committees established under Section 13 effect change. It is now clear that the alternative legislative of the Environment Act 1995. vehicle of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement The Government has tabled a separate amendment, Act 2007 cannot be used to transfer the functions of Amendment 80, which we will come to later, to give the body because of its United Kingdom jurisdiction the Welsh Ministers the powers to abolish the equivalent and it being within devolved legislative competence. Welsh committees. Amendment 80 is part of a package Devolved Administrations have consented to this transfer of amendments following in-depth discussions with and abolition. I beg to move. the Welsh Assembly Government to provide specific order-making powers to the Welsh Ministers. Further Amendment 6 agreed. details of the order-making powers being afforded to the Welsh Ministers to abolish these named bodies will be outlined in the context of this package. Amendment 7 These amendments are consistent with the policy Moved by Baroness Quin intention to give the Welsh Ministers the power to make decisions in relation to public bodies and offices 7: Schedule 1, page 15, line 11, leave out “Agricultural Wages Board for England and Wales.” in Wales where they fall within the policy areas which the Welsh Ministers and the National Assembly for Wales are responsible. This is also consistent with the aim of the Bill to provide the Welsh Ministers with Baroness Quin: My Lords, Amendment 7 stands in relevant powers to ensure that they can put in place my name and in the names of the noble Lord, Lord the most appropriate arrangements to deliver their Greaves, and my noble friend Lord Whitty. I would environmental duties and policy objectives in Wales. very much have liked the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, to have been present to move the amendment himself. I 4.15 pm know that he has been unwell; we send him our The fourth amendment in the group, which was continuing good wishes and hope that he will soon originally to be debated later but has now been grouped, again be playing his full part, as he typically does in Amendment 14, is to insert the Plant Varieties and our proceedings. 749 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 750

I say from the outset that I am proud to be a all agricultural workers is therefore a precious asset member of the Unite union, which now represents that helps to value the work of agricultural workers agricultural workers. I joined what was then the around the country. Transport and General Workers’ Union on my first It was also effectively pointed out by a number of day in my first job at Transport House some 40 years noble Lords that many farmers also value the Agricultural ago. At that time, the Agricultural Workers’ Union Wages Board. Although the National Farmers’ Union was separate. in England has officially been in favour of abolishing When we last debated the proposed abolition of the the board, the NFU in Wales has taken the opposite Agricultural Wages Board in Committee, some powerful view. In Scotland, too, there is support for the Agricultural speeches were made, not least by the noble Lord, Lord Wages Board and how it operates. I also know that Greaves, in introducing his amendment, and by some some farmers in England value the assistance that the of his noble friends, including the noble Lord, Lord board can give and feel that it helps them in what is Maclennan, who is in his place today. Memorable sometimes an otherwise difficult and embarrassing speeches were made by many of my noble friends. negotiation with an individual worker on their farm. I Those speeches were not just powerful but knowledgeable do not know how widely the Minister has spoken to and drew on a great deal of background about the farmers about this; given the lack of consultation, I work of the Agricultural Wages Board during its imagine very little. However, there is more support existence, which, as we know, goes back a long way. It among farmers than is generally recognised. That is has had a successful history both in carrying out its reinforced by the views from Scotland and Wales. detailed work and in promoting a harmonious way of Concern was expressed, which I repeat today, about doing business between farmers and farm workers in the abolition of the board having the effect of driving the countryside. wages down, particularly in the grades above minimum I hope that the Minister was impressed by the wage. The noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, asked about powerful speeches in Committee. He was going to this in our earlier debate. Concern was raised by a reflect on the comments that were made, although his number of Members about pressure from supermarkets initial response was that he was not persuaded that the on our farming industry, which is already very strong. Government’s decision to abolish the board should be It might also have a knock-on effect in driving agricultural reversed. I hope that he has had time in the intervening wages down. Many Members felt that the best way to period to reflect again on that point of view. Certainly, deal with that was to go ahead with the introduction much was made in Committee of the lack of consultation of a grocery adjudicator or grocery ombudsman. I in the Government reaching their decision. This was know that a number of noble Lords have been pressing echoed in England and in Wales, which would also be for that in recent Questions and debates. We are a little affected by what the Government propose. concerned that there is something of a go-slow on this A great deal was said in Committee by the Government appointment because it would help in terms of the and their supporters to the effect that, now that we relationship with the supermarkets and would be a have a minimum wage, and given that the lowest grade much more effective way forward than abolishing the of agricultural worker wage was, I think, 2p above that Agricultural Wages Board. minimum wage— My noble friend Lord Whitty asked whether the Government would do an impact assessment of the Lord Henley: It was 3p. effect of the abolition of the legal minimum on wage rates, given that when each of the other wages boards Baroness Quin: It was 3p above—so this protection was abolished, rates in the relevant sectors fell. The was not necessary. However, as many of my noble Minister dismissed that idea, saying that it was not friends and other noble Lords pointed out at that necessary, but I wonder whether the will rethink his time, the Agricultural Wages Board deals with many policy of not doing any assessment of this kind. levels of remuneration. There are five other levels I do not think it would be good for the rural above the minimum wage. The fact that we have a economy if wages went down. The Joseph Rowntree minimum wage would not deal with that situation at Foundation has already pointed how workers in the all. In a way, the Government’s whole argument about countryside need to earn more than those living in the minimum wage was a red herring. There was an urban areas simply to have the same standard of irony, however, in that the minimum wage and other living. The recommendations made in the Rowntree social legislation that the Government prayed in aid report are important to the debate today. Indeed, in for the vote in Committee were all very much opposed the earlier debate my noble friend Lord Clark mentioned by the Conservative Government prior to 1997. Therefore, that the Agricultural Wages Board provides a benchmark that did not comfort those of us who wanted to see and yardstick for many other workers in rural areas, proper protection for agricultural workers. so again the knock-on effect ought to be taken very Many noble Lords pointed out that agriculture was much into account. If the Government succeed in in many ways unique. Indeed, that uniqueness was their policy, perhaps the Minister will tell us who is recognised in the fact that, when the other wages going to monitor what is happening to agricultural boards were abolished, the Agricultural Wages Board wages and whether the Government have any plans to was allowed to continue. It was very much a reflection review the policy if, in the light of events, the consequences of the fact that agricultural workers may be employed seem to be harmful to farm workers. individually or as part of a pair on a farm where they I mentioned that Scotland will retain the Agricultural might be quite isolated from other workers in the same Wages Board, but I am concerned about the position industry. A body that they can turn to which represents in Wales. Since our last debate I have looked up the 751 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 752

[BARONESS QUIN] do on a farm. Clearly farmers are not looking for the debates that took place in the Welsh Assembly way same skills as before, so I do not support her amendment, back in October. The Minister there complained that but there are a couple of points that I would be no proper consultation with the Assembly had taken grateful if she would pick up from me. She mentioned place, which rather contrasts with what the Minister that the National Farmers’ Union is, on the whole, in said a few moments ago about far less controversial favour of the board. It will have explained its reasons bodies having been discussed in depth with Members and she will know those very clearly. I do not agree of the Welsh Assembly. In the exchange that took with her that the abolition of this board will drive place in the Assembly on 6 October last, the Minister wages down for the reason that I have already indicated: there said that it was clear that Defra did not intend to the needs of agriculture in today’s modern world. devolve any budget to the Assembly, and therefore if it According to the Foresight report that came out in had to reinstate the Agricultural Wages Board only in January, which I have had the pleasure of reading, the Wales, it would require considerable work and a funding thrust in the future is to produce more food to feed the allocation. I am puzzled about the timing because that world. Therefore, we need to raise the profile of agriculture debate took place last October and yet the proposal to for those coming into the industry and those who are abolish the Agricultural Wages Board is in the legislation already there, and we need to pay them well. Those before us today. I should like the Minister to comment whom I have been in contact with are well aware that on why the Welsh Assembly, under pressure from we normally pay above the minimum wage. For the Defra, felt it had to act so quickly when in fact benefit of newer Members, I remind the House of my sanction for the abolition of the Agricultural Wages family’s farming interests, although sadly, for various Board will be given only when this Bill completes its reasons, we do not employ anyone ourselves now but passage through both Houses. have contracts with our neighbouring farmer. There If the situation in Wales is unsatisfactory, it is also were certainly low wages and long hours in the past, unsatisfactory in England. The lack of consultation is and the long hours continue, but during the winter in something that has to be deplored. Indeed, I believe the quieter season workers are quite rightly paid for that the Minister would have managed to get some when they are not so busy. The agricultural working changes through if he had embarked on such a week, if you look at it over a year, is very different consultation in England because I think that there was from the working week of someone who works in an some appetite for simplification of the way the board office from nine until five. works, as well as some reform and modernisation The noble Baroness said that the abolition of the while adhering to the belief that the wages board board would not save much money. If her Government overall does valuable work. had dealt with the problem, we might not have to save Some changes to be made by this Bill are very money now, but that is another point. How much has welcome, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of the board cost over the past 10 years, for example? I Holbeach, briefly referred to that a few moments ago. hope she has that sort of response for me. She expressed It is therefore sad that on this issue the Government her concerns about the relationship between those have so far remained stubborn and obdurate. They employing people on the farm and the workers themselves. will not save much money and it does seem to be part Nowadays that relationship is much closer than it was of a political agenda—of paying off an old score. For in the old days, for the various reasons I have given. I all these reasons, I cannot stress how strongly I hope hope that she will be able to fill in the gaps because I that the Government will announce a change of heart missed the detailed discussions in Committee, and today. I beg to move. that, once she has heard the Minister’s and other noble Lords’ responses, she will think again about the 4.30 pm amendment. Baroness Byford: My Lords, I apologise for the fact that, for health reasons, I could not unfortunately Lord Empey: My Lords, we are not going to get participate in Committee. I also send my best wishes consistency throughout the United Kingdom on this to the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, who certainly is a because in Northern Ireland we have already decided great fighter on behalf of these matters. We do not to abolish our Agricultural Wages Board. The reason always agree, and on this occasion I do not agree with for that in no way challenges the arguments put forward this amendment. I know there were powerful contributions by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin. A variety of things in Committee and, had I been here, I would have have collided here—not only the activities of the Low raised one or two points. Pay Commission but the problems in the industry As the noble Baroness has just said, the introduction arising in different areas: for instance, the activities of of the minimum wage has altered the way we look at the Gangmasters Licensing Authority and the fact things. The Agricultural Wages Board came in many that many part-time workers were being brought in, a years ago and fulfilled a very necessary function, but number of whom we felt were being exploited. As nowadays many agricultural workers are paid well Employment Minister, I was charged with bringing in above the minimum wage because what farmers are special measures. We found that the best way of dealing looking for these days are skilled workers, not just with this was within the framework of national law, people to do menial jobs, as they used to. The wages with particular emphasis on the Low Pay Commission. that people were paid in those days reflected that. The We found that many part-time workers, even if they noble Baroness, Lady Quin, will remember, as a former were not indigenous, as many of them were not, were Minister, the various difficulties that one has to go undoubtedly being abused in the contracts to which through to qualify for many of the jobs that one has to they were being asked to work, even being forced to 753 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 754 pay for temporary accommodation, the cost of which the owners of farms and the employers of farm workers. was deducted from their wages by some unscrupulous I make no observation except to say that that is a agents. We introduced a law to prevent that. statement of fact. I do not for one moment suggest The profile of the industry where I come from is that noble Members opposite were not considerate, different, because many more farmers today are part not kind and not informed—they were and they are—but time. As the noble Baroness has just stipulated, very they see things from a different perspective than do few people can employ workers in the same way as in farm employees. the past. Given the difference in profile—the fact that The Agricultural Wages Board represents roughly farms tend to be either part time or much larger and 150,000 people. When I heard the argument that much more sophisticated organisations—we feel that, agricultural workers are quite well paid—we have although the agricultural wages boards as originally heard it touched upon today—I was not so sure that envisaged had a good and valid purpose, time has any of the 150,000 people who were affected by it moved on and the profile of the sector today is radically would agree with that statement. That makes my point different. The bodies have a very proud track record about the difference in perspective when looking at and we all strongly support what they have done, but, these issues. I emphasise that this is not only about as with so many of the other bodies that we will those 150,000 people; the Agricultural Wages Board discuss later today and on other occasions, time has lays down a benchmark for many other rural and moved on. We feel, and felt, that other measures that agriculturally related activities, and as we move into would bring the sector more into the mainstream of the contracting business in agriculture, which is inevitable, employment generally would make more sense in today’s it is even more important. world, because fewer people are employed in the sector and there are fewer farms, which have a totally different The argument used for the creation of the Agricultural profile from the profile of those that were previously Wages Board was that there was no method of collective envisaged. However strongly the noble Baroness and negotiations to achieve what was considered to be a the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, might feel about their fair wage, and so the state had to intervene to determine amendment, I can say only that, in our circumstances, what that fair wage was. I still believe—it came out in we looked at it and came to the conclusion that the our previous debate—that, in the absence of collective time had come to move on. bargaining, the relationship between one employer and two or three employees can be very difficult; it can be embarrassing for both sides in many cases. The Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, perhaps I Agricultural Wages Board assisted in that respect. may chip in as a mere layman, and a former MP for a constituency that looked as though it was rural, just to The Government have been very active. Mr Paice support the previous two speeches. In passing, I may wrote to Mr David Hill, the chair of the Agricultural say that I really would not want to accept the noble Wages Committee for Cumbria, Northumbria and Baroness’s description of my Front-Bench colleagues Tyne and Wear on 22 July and made the point, on as stubborn, obdurate and wanting to settle old scores which we can all agree, that it is a key government in relation to the amendment. That might turn out to priority to support British farming. He said that he be true in relation to others, but I am not sure that I wanted to ensure that the agricultural industry can would regard it as such in relation to this amendment. adopt flexible and modern agricultural practices. I As I said, I was a Member of Parliament in an area agree with that as well—I hope we all do. However, I that looked as though it was rural. It had a lot of worry that the price we might have to pay for this is a farmers 36 years ago—I was elected in 1974. Even reduction in the wages of agricultural employees. then, although the numbers would have been down, a I accept the argument that the Agricultural Wages lot of people worked on farms. By the time I left, very Board and the industry employ very skilled personnel. few people worked on farms, certainly in eastern England, The noble Lord, Lord Newton, has made that very where it is heavily arable and a lot of people do not clear and was very perceptive. As a result, various have or want animals. What one had were vast, Rolls- grades are covered by the board, and only a small Royce-type pieces of equipment that needed highly minority are at the very basic level. I understand that. skilled, trained people, as my noble friend pointed out, Therefore I was even more concerned to read another to operate them. Frankly, in a part of the country such letter from Mr Jim Paice, the Minister in the other as that, with modern farming—it is probably different place, to Mr David Hill, dated 8 September, in which in some other parts of the country—this whole thing he says: has an antique feel about it compared with the “the six different grades of worker”, circumstances in which the boards were set up. So I have some sympathy with my noble friends. under the Agricultural Wages Board, “will not be retained”. Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, I intervene They are going to abolish the various grades of skill briefly in opposition to the three previous speakers that are now covered and recognised under the board. and in support of my noble friend’s amendment. I, It is on that that I base my submission that, in a too, send my good wishes to the noble Lord, Lord relative sense, wages will fall back and that the rewards Greaves, who intended to initiate this debate. that are currently given for skill, which is vital to that We had a long and interesting debate on this issue modern agricultural industry, as the noble Baroness, on 1 December, and I was struck by how it divided the Lady Byford, has said, to produce more food depends House in a way that I had not seen previously. I saw upon the use of machinery and the skill of the workforce coming from the Benches opposite the perspective of to use that. 755 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 756

[LORD CLARK OF WINDERMERE] processors will say, “Your labour costs need to go It is imperative that we recognise those skills. I down by the same degree as the legal minimum goes happen to believe that the abolition of the Agricultural down”—that is, in proportion to the difference Wages Board and Mr Jim Paice’s proposal to abolish between the wages board minimum and the statutory the grading of skills will actually lead to a less efficient minimum wage. For the total bill, that is an enormous agricultural industry, which is not what I want and, I amount of money and therefore a saving to the hope, not what the other side wants. I feel very strongly supermarkets. I know that the Government intend that this will be seen in the countryside as another to address other pressures that the supermarkets put attempt by this Government to make life more difficult on the agricultural sector, but this will be one more for people who work in the countryside. excuse for them to lean on farmers to reduce their prices and therefore to reduce their wages. If the 4.45 pm noble Lord wishes to start that process, there will The Earl of Caithness: My Lords, the noble Lord, be real dangers, and the skilled force will begin to Lord Clark, induces me to get to my feet, if only to disappear. correct him. He made that lovely, sweeping statement At the other end of the labour force, a lot of that all those on this side of the House are landowners agricultural labour, and particularly seasonal labour, and farmers, particularly those who spoke on 1 December. depends on migrant labour and is operated by a set of If I may correct him, I am not a landowner and I am gangmasters. There is nothing wrong with labour not a farmer. I was a land agent. I acted for farmers, I providers, provided that they obey the rules. But one acted for landowners, I acted for tenants and I acted of the main ways in which the exploitation by some for farm workers. Therefore I have no interest to gangmasters of the workforce is identified is that they declare and I do not fall into the category in which he are not meeting the legal minimum set out in the sought to portray me. Agricultural Wages Board regulations. Once that is We are all extremely grateful to see my noble friend seen—and it is a relatively simple thing to establish—all Lady Byford back in her place and active again. She sorts of other abuses over conditions of health and adds a great deal of common sense and a huge amount safety, immigration status and tax and national insurance of knowledge to our debates on farming and the become apparent. As a result, the Gangmasters Licensing environment. I thought what she said was very soundly Authority has been able to clean up a lot of that end. based, as indeed was what the noble Lord, Lord It has been a very important way in which the authority Cameron, said in Committee. I listened with care to can do so. If we remove that clear legal minimum, I what the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, said. I found fear that it is one less lever for us to clean up the supply nothing new from what she said in Committee, although of labour in what has been, in some parts, a very she did praise the strength of the arguments for those exploited sector. supporting her amendments in Committee. I would There are all sorts of reasons why, historically, there only praise the strength of the arguments against. is an attachment on this side of the House and in the Labour movement as a whole to the Agricultural Lord Whitty: My Lords, I apologise to noble Lords Wages Board. I am a Dorset man myself these days, so that, because the House has made such good progress I come from a great Tolpuddle tradition, but I am not today, I was not present at the beginning of the simply relying on history. I am relying on the effect debate. However, as my name is attached to the that the removal of this one remaining legal-minimum, amendment, perhaps I may touch on two issues, sector-specific wage will have on the quality and quantity neither of which has been mentioned since I have been of the workforce in agriculture and how it is treated. in the Chamber. If either has already been mentioned, In the end, if that happens it will be to the detriment I apologise. of agriculture as well. The first point follows on from what my noble friend Lord Clark has just said. The structure that the Baroness Butler-Sloss: My Lords, I had not intended Agricultural Wages Board sets does recognise skills to speak in this part of the debate, and I apologise to throughout this sector. The fact that many workers in the House that I have not spoken about this in Committee, many parts of the country are paid more than the but I take up and endorse a point made by the noble legal minimum does not take away the need to have Lord, Lord Whitty. I declare an interest as co-chairman that structure. The requirements of agriculture are of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human becoming more and more sophisticated at one end, Trafficking. One group that is potentially trafficked but less and less sophisticated at another. At the and has been trafficked in the past comprises agricultural higher end, those skills need to be rewarded. The and horticultural workers. I was extremely glad to structure provided by the AWB allowed individual hear the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, speak about the farmers and farm enterprises to base their actual Gangmasters Licensing Authority, which remains in wages on a similar structure. great danger of being abolished, although Schedule 7, The noble Lord, Lord Henley, will know by now where it appeared, is no longer part of the Bill. I that every farmer you meet will tell you that every cost would be very much more concerned about the loss of saving that he makes is immediately recouped by the that authority, which has a specific requirement to supermarkets. One of my fears in this is that, once it look after those exploited in the fields and the horticultural is known that there is a reduction in the legal industry, than I am about the loss of the Agricultural minimum, which sets a floor above which voluntary Wages Board, which does not specifically deal with payments by employers stretch to quite high levels that migrant group, part of which is capable of being for some workers, the supermarkets and the big trafficked. 757 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 758

Lord Cameron of Dillington: My Lords, I rise to outdated—and unnecessary regulatory burdens from oppose the amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady farm businesses so that they can focus their time on Quin, says that her amendment has some support in farming in order to develop a thriving, sustainable and the agricultural industry and that the Agricultural prosperous industry. Wages Board’s pronouncements are a good benchmark I ask all noble Lords to listen very carefully to what that the agricultural industry and others use. Both the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, had to those statements are true; it is frightfully easy for say, particularly about the way in which farmers themselves farmers and others to give no thought to what they make decisions about what they pay their employees. pay their workers and staff. They just follow the van, These employees are using large machinery which very as it were. However, as I said in Committee, on our often costs a great deal of money, and these employers farm and on many others we do think about what we are not going to employ people without the appropriate pay our workers and we pay more than what the skills. They will pay them the appropriate amount of Agricultural Wages Board sets down. As has been said money if they want to look after that machinery. by the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and the noble Similarly, I commend the noble Lord for what he said Baroness, Lady Byford, farm staff are in charge of about supermarkets, including the deals and quality really expensive equipment. They are very skilled; they assurances that they want. These assurances often have computers, sat-nav and all sorts of things. Sometimes involve the environmental and employment practices this equipment costs £200,000 per piece and that is of farms and so on. why we pay more—it is a really skilled job. As noble Lords will know, the board has itself been The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that supermarkets keen to modernise the agricultural wages legislation; will drive down wages. I disagree—in the audit that for example, to allow farmers and workers to agree supermarkets put farmers through, they are very keen payment of annual salaries. This will be far easier to on environmental behaviour and other things, but also achieve outside the current restrictions of a statutory behaviour towards the workforce. They insist on very framework. Once abolished, these functions of the high standards of facilities and I very much doubt that board will cease to exist and agricultural workers they would want to force farmers to pay less, because, within England and Wales will be protected by the if it got out to the public, they would not be so National Minimum Wage Act and by wider employment popular. In my experience, anything that the legislation, as are workers in all other sectors of the supermarkets can do to impose extra costs on their economy. producers, they seem to go along with; but that is perhaps another point and why I spoke in the adjudicator My noble friend Lady Byford asked how much it debate. would save, and how much it had cost over the past 10 years. All I can say is that the cost of the board last The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, is probably right year was some £200,000, but that is without taking that the industry needs a benchmark, but I do not into account the cost to the department. However, this believe that there is any need to make this a statutory is not purely about saving money. We think that the benchmark. A very good alternative would be a board has outlived its term and therefore ought to go. voluntary get-together of the NFU and the unions Importantly, one should also remember that workers which farmers who do not wish to settle their own will retain contractual rights that exist at the time wage agreements can use as a benchmark. I think that when the board is abolished until such time as the that kind of voluntary situation would deal with a lot contract is varied by agreement between the employer of the worries that are coming from this side of the and the worker or until any contract comes to an end. House.

5pm Lord Henley: My Lords, allow me to intervene at this stage. I add to the remarks of the noble My noble friend and others raised the matter of Baroness, Lady Quin, as to how much, as always, we devolution, as did the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who miss my noble friend Lord Greaves, who is, unfortunately, objected to the amendment. I was grateful for what he unable to be here. I listened very carefully to what she had to say about the position in Northern Ireland. said; I am still not persuaded and I will set out why. I The position there is different, as is the position in will start with a very small apology. When she said Scotland. That is quite right; it is the point of devolution. that 2p was the difference from the minimum wage, I We have to accept that there will be different arrangements interrupted her from a sedentary position to say that it in different parts of the country. There is nothing was 3p. She was correct—it was 2p. So, mea culpa, I wrong with that and we should positively welcome it. was wrong. But I am not sure that 1p makes that much With regard to the position in Wales, I can give my difference. noble friend an assurance that Ministers in the Welsh I think it worth saying at this point, in relation to Assembly Government have been consulted on the the points made by the noble and learned Baroness, proposal to abolish the board and have agreed to its Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, abolition. Welsh Ministers will be able to bring forward about the protection of vulnerable workers, that the a separate order in due course abolishing the Agricultural Gangmasters Licensing Authority will continue to be Wages Committee in Wales, and we will be liaising there. Its job is to protect those vulnerable people and with them to deal with those matters. it does not appear in the Bill at all. It exists and there is The Low Pay Commission was asked to take into no plan to change that. We intend to abolish the board account the circumstances of agricultural workers when and to remove outdated—my noble friend Lord Newton making its annual recommendations to the Government correctly described them as antique, worse than on the national minimum wage rate. Responsibility for 759 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 760

[LORD HENLEY] Baroness if, on a previous occasion in Committee, I the enforcement of the national minimum wage in the possibly misspoke on this subject. The impact assessment agricultural sector will transfer to the commission. As will be informed by independent research that we have for the funding to the commission and HMRC for this already commissioned on the impact of the abolition additional work, Defra will be making a resource of the Agricultural Wages Board on wage rates. With transfer that will be broadly comparable with the those assurances, I hope that the noble Baroness will annual budget of the board. That is why I stress that withdraw her amendment. this is not being done to save money. I can also give an assurance that, in the absence of Baroness Quin: My Lords, I welcome that we have the wages board, workers and employers will need been able to have this debate. I had originally expected to agree terms and conditions for employment to sum up just before the Minister replied, so I was according to individual circumstances, a point that slightly thrown when I was suddenly called to introduce was emphasised by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron. the amendment that I had happily co-signed. Obviously the Government strongly encourage industry I do not apologise to the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, representatives—the noble Baroness mentioned Unite, for repeating some of my earlier remarks. We had a of which she has been a member for many years—to very thorough debate in Committee, and the arguments work together to provide the benchmarks for agricultural have not substantially changed since then, but the wage rates. This will be particularly beneficial to small point of the debate was to hope that the Minister businesses. A non-statutory approach to wage-setting would have changed his mind by the time that he came works in industries such as the construction sector, to the Dispatch Box to answer the points. I very much and while there are differences between sectors there is welcome the return of the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. no reason why a similar approach should not work in It has always been good to work with her in the past. I agriculture. endorse the tributes that were paid to her. Although there are far fewer farm workers these days—I accept The noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Clark of the statistics that she and the noble Lord, Lord Newton, Windermere, talked about the different grades. The gave—154,000 people will be affected by the proposals. vast majority of full-time permanent workers fall into That is not a negligible number of people. either grades 2 or 4 within the current Agricultural Wages Order banding. That suggests that they have I thank the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble skills that are desirable in a competitive market, and and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, not for the figures bear that out. Last year nearly three-quarters supporting the amendment but for showing their concern of agricultural workers over 21 were paid at or above about those who have been exploited in the past, and the minimum wage for their grade, and of those almost about the dangers of exploitation in the future too. I half were paid more than 10p above the hourly minimum very much agree with the comments made by my wage for their grade. That provides firm evidence that noble friends Lord Clark and Lord Whitty. the market, not the wages board, is generally delivering The Minister has responded, and I welcome some higher wages and that minimum rates do not act as a of the things he said, such as his comments on the floor. Lower-skilled workers who are paid at or around impact assessment and consultation in the future. the grade 1 agricultural minimum rate will, as I said, None the less, the Government’s overall decision to be protected by the national minimum wage requirements. abolish the board is one that we on these Benches still I shall make one or two comments about the strongly disagree with. There is far too much reliance supermarket problem, as put forward by a number of on the minimum wage legislation. As my noble friends noble Lords on the Benches opposite. First, I take the pointed out, there are other grades that recognise point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of skills within the agricultural industry, and the precedents Dillington, which they ought to bear in mind. Secondly, are not good when wages boards have been abolished I again remind the House that we have plans to bring in the past. For all those reasons, I do not wish to forward the groceries code adjudicator. I was teased withdraw the amendment, but would like to test the by the noble Baroness; she said that there seemed to be opinion of the House. a go-slow by the Government on this. That is not the 5.08 pm case at all. We have made it clear right from the start, or from very recently, that there will be a groceries Division on Amendment 7. code adjudicator. He will have certain powers in terms of naming and shaming, and we will be bringing Contents 194; Not-Contents 249. forward draft legislation to deal with that in due Amendment 7 disagreed. course. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that that is the case. Division No. 1 The noble Baroness also made allegations about a CONTENTS lack of consultation. I can assure her that the new Adams of Craigielea, B. Barnett, L. procedures for the Public Bodies Bill which were agreed Adonis, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. in Committee require Ministers to consult on a proposal Ahmed, L. [Teller] to make an order. This may be done before, or after, Allenby of Megiddo, V. Beecham, L. the Bill comes into force. Accordingly, we will consult Anderson of Swansea, L. Bew, L. on the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Board and Andrews, B. Bilston, L. Archer of Sandwell, L. Blackstone, B. hope to issue such a consultation this autumn. A Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Blood, B. quality impact assessment will be published as part of Bach, L. Boateng, L. that consultation exercise. I apologise to the noble Bakewell, B. Boothroyd, B. 761 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 762

Borrie, L. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Taylor of Bolton, B. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Kestenbaum, L. Temple-Morris, L. West of Spithead, L. Bradley, L. King of Bow, B. Thornton, B. Wheeler, B. Bragg, L. King of West Bromwich, L. Tomlinson, L. Whitaker, B. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Touhig, L. Whitty, L. Triesman, L. Brookman, L. Kirkhill, L. Wigley, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Turnberg, L. Wilkins, B. Browne of Ladyton, L. Layard, L. Williams of Elvel, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Lea of Crondall, L. Turner of Camden, B. Wills, L. Carter of Coles, L. Liddle, L. Warner, L. Christopher, L. Lipsey, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Wood of Anfield, L. Clancarty, E. Lister of Burtersett, B. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Listowel, E. Clarke of Hampstead, L. McAvoy, L. NOT CONTENTS Clinton-Davis, L. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, Corbett of Castle Vale, L. L. Addington, L. Dobbs, L. Corston, B. McDonagh, B. Ahmad of Wimbledon, L. Doocey, B. Crawley, B. McFall of Alcluith, L. Alderdice, L. D’Souza, B. Davies of Coity, L. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Dundee, E. Davies of Oldham, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Arran, E. Dykes, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Ashcroft, L. Eaton, B. Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, L. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Eccles, V. B. McKenzie of Luton, L. Hamdon, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Dixon, L. Mallalieu, B. Astor, V. Eden of Winton, L. Drake, B. Mandelson, L. Astor of Hever, L. Edmiston, L. Dubs, L. Martin of Springburn, Attlee, E. Empey, L. Eames, L. L. Baker of Dorking, L. Erroll, E. Eatwell, L. Masham of Ilton, B. Barker, B. Exeter, Bp. Elder, L. Massey of Darwen, B. Bates, L. Falkner of Margravine, B. Evans of Parkside, L. Maxton, L. Benjamin, B. Faulks, L. Evans of Temple Guiting, L. Mitchell, L. Berridge, B. Feldman, L. Evans of Watford, L. Moonie, L. Best, L. Feldman of Elstree, L. Falkender, B. Morgan, L. Bilimoria, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Morgan of Drefelin, B. Black of Brentwood, L. Fink, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Morgan of Ely, B. Blencathra, L. Fookes, B. Filkin, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Fowler, L. Ford, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. B. Framlingham, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. Boswell of Aynho, L. Freeman, L. Gale, B. Morris of Manchester, L. Bowness, L. Freud, L. Gavron, L. Morris of Yardley, B. Bradshaw, L. Garden of Frognal, B. Gibson of Market Rasen, B. Myners, L. Bridgeman, V. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Giddens, L. Nye, B. Brinton, B. Gardner of Parkes, B. Gilbert, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, L. Geddes, L. Golding, B. Parekh, L. Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, German, L. Goldsmith, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. L. Glasgow, E. Gordon of Strathblane, L. Patel of Bradford, L. Brougham and Vaux, L. Glendonbrook, L. Goudie, B. Pendry, L. Browning, B. Glentoran, L. Gould of Potternewton, B. Pitkeathley, B. Burnett, L. Goodhart, L. Greengross, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Buscombe, B. Goodlad, L. Griffiths of Burry Port, L. Prescott, L. Butler-Sloss, B. Goschen, V. Grocott, L. Quin, B. Byford, B. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Harris of Haringey, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Caithness, E. Grey-Thompson, B. Harrison, L. Rea, L. Cameron of Dillington, L. Griffiths of Fforestfach, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. Campbell of Alloway, L. Hamilton of Epsom, L. Haskel, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Carey of Clifton, L. Hannay of Chiswick, L. Hattersley, L. Richard, L. Cathcart, E. Harris of Peckham, L. Haworth, L. Robertson of Port Ellen, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Rooker, L. Chadlington, L. Henley, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Rosser, L. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Heyhoe Flint, B. Henig, B. Rowlands, L. Chidgey, L. Higgins, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Clement-Jones, L. Hill of Oareford, L. Hollick, L. Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly. Cobbold, L. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Hollis of Heigham, B. Sandwich, E. Colwyn, L. L. Howarth of Newport, L. Sawyer, L. Condon, L. Home, E. Howells of St Davids, B. Scotland of Asthal, B. Cormack, L. Hooper, B. Howie of Troon, L. Sewel, L. Cotter, L. Howard of Lympne, L. Hoyle, L. Sherlock, B. Courtown, E. Howard of Rising, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. Simon, V. Craig of Radley, L. Howarth of Breckland, B. Hughes of Woodside, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Craigavon, V. Howe, E. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Smith of Finsbury, L. Crickhowell, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Irvine of Lairg, L. Smith of Gilmorehill, B. Cumberlege, B. Howell of Guildford, L. Janner of Braunstone, L. Snape, L. Dannatt, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Jones, L. Soley, L. De Mauley, L. Hussain, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. Stern, B. Dear, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Jordan, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. Deech, B. James of Blackheath, L. Judd, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Denham, L. James of Holland Park, B. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, B. Dholakia, L. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Taylor of Blackburn, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. 763 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 764

Jolly, B. Prashar, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Rawlings, B. Amendment 9 Jopling, L. Razzall, L. Moved by Lord Knight of Weymouth Kakkar, L. Reay, L. Kilclooney, L. Redesdale, L. 9: Schedule 1, page 15, line 18, leave out “Commission for Kimball, L. Rennard, L. Rural Communities.” King of Bridgwater, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Ribeiro, L. Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, I am grateful Knight of Collingtree, B. Risby, L. Kramer, B. Ritchie of Brompton, B. to the right reverend Prelates the Bishop of Norwich Laming, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. and the Bishop of Exeter for adding their names to the Lawson of Blaby, L. Roberts of Llandudno, L. amendment. I will be brief, because I know that noble Lee of Trafford, L. Rogan, L. Lords want to cover a lot of business this evening, Lexden, L. Rowe-Beddoe, L. including some Divisions. I am grateful also to the Lindsay, E. St Edmundsbury and Ipswich, Lingfield, L. Bp. Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for the letter Linklater of Butterstone, B. St John of Bletso, L. that I received a couple of hours ago, which sets out Liverpool, E. St John of Fawsley, L. some of the detail on these issues. That will also allow Loomba, L. Sassoon, L. us to speed things along. Lothian, M. Scott of Needham Market, B. Lucas, L. Seccombe, B. It is clear from the Minister’s letter that already Luce, L. Selborne, E. 12 members of staff have moved over from the Luke, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. Commission for Rural Communities to the Rural MacGregor of Pulham Selsdon, L. Communities Policy Unit that is being set up in the Market, L. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. department. Whether or not that move anticipates Mackay of Clashfern, L. Sharkey, L. MacLaurin of Knebworth, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. Parliament in respect of the passage of the Bill through McNally, L. Shrewsbury, E. both Houses, it is clear that the Government’s mind is Maddock, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] made up on the future of the commission. I will not Magan of Castletown, L. Skelmersdale, L. unduly frustrate the Government and Parliament by Mancroft, L. Slim, V. holding out for the commission, even though I was the Mar, C. Smith of Clifton, L. Marks of Henley-on-Thames, Spicer, L. Minister who created it in the Natural Environment L. Stedman-Scott, B. and Rural Communities Act 2006. However, I will Marland, L. Steel of Aikwood, L. speak up for an independent rural voice appointed by, Marlesford, L. Sterling of Plaistow, L. and with the authority of, the Prime Minister, that will Mawhinney, L. Stirrup, L. report on what is going on in rural England and will Mayhew of Twysden, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. do so without fear, favour or special interest, on the Meacher, B. Storey, L. Montrose, D. Stowell of Beeston, B. basis of having travelled the length and breadth of Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Strathclyde, L. rural England to understand what is going on on the Morris of Bolton, B. Taylor of Holbeach, L. ground: a voice that will be able at times to tell the Murphy, B. Tebbit, L. Government what they do not want to hear. Naseby, L. Teverson, L. Neuberger, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. I am relatively confident that the Minister will Neville-Jones, B. Trenchard, V. respond by saying that there are plenty of other Newlove, B. True, L. independent rural voices—I think that that is what he Newton of Braintree, L. Trumpington, B. said in Committee—and that there is a very fine rural Noakes, B. Tugendhat, L. affairs Minister in the form of Richard Benyon MP, Northbrook, L. Tyler of Enfield, B. Northover, B. Verma, B. and I do not necessarily disagree with that. He will say Norton of Louth, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. that they will do the job and that in any event the O’Cathain, B. Wallace of Tankerness, L. coalition represents swathes of rural England and so O’Loan, B. Walmsley, B. MPs can also represent that voice. However, I guarantee Oppenheim-Barnes, B. Walpole, L. your Lordships that, should a party with a much more Palmer, L. Warsi, B. Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Wasserman, L. urban basis of representation return to government, Parkinson, L. Waverley, V. the Minister’s party would clamour for an independent Parminter, B. Wei, L. rural voice to tell the Government what they did not Patel, L. Wheatcroft, B. want to hear about the effects of their policies on rural Patten, L. Wilcox, B. England. Perry of Southwark, B. Williamson of Horton, L. Phillips of Sudbury, L. Willis of Knaresborough, L. As I said, I am sure that Richard Benyon is doing a Plumb, L. Young of Hornsey, B. good job. However, I had his job as rural affairs Popat, L. Younger of Leckie, V. Minister and I have to say to the House that it would be very hard for anyone in that job, as a member of the 5.22 pm Government, to go out publicly and tell even “Farming Today”, at that ungodly hour of the morning, that the Government had got it wrong. It simply does not Amendment 8 work like that. Ministers cannot go out publicly and Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach say, on the record, that the Government have got it wrong. 8: Schedule 1, page 15, line 12, at end insert “for areas in I have no doubt that the rural affairs Minister is England” holding bilateral meetings around Whitehall, as did I and my successors. However effective those meetings Amendment 8 agreed. were, they were not quite as effective as when the rural 765 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 766 advocate, who is also the chairman of the Commission findings and views, have reached the ears of officials for Rural Communities, came to see me about the and Ministers. There is evidence that this has influenced work that he did travelling around the country and policy accordingly. From the perspective of the looking at what was going on on the ground. That is countryside, his office has become increasingly valued another aspect of what the rural affairs Minister cannot in speaking up for rural people and communities, do. That Minister is tied to whipped votes and has to especially those experiencing disadvantage, and ensuring go to the Commons of an evening, doing his bit as that policies take account of rural needs and rural part of the government payroll. He is not able to get circumstances. It was always envisaged that his role as out and about and to understand what is going on as rural advocate was to be at the forefront of public effectively as the current rural advocate, Dr Stuart debate on rural issues and to have a really close Burgesss, who has done a fantastic job, or his predecessors working relationship with the range of different or anyone else who acts as an independent rural voice. communities in the countryside, so that he might The Campaign to Protect Rural England, the Countryside better represent the views and experiences of life in Alliance, the National Farmers’ Union, the National rural England. Trust and the Rural Shops Alliance are all perfectly There can be no doubt that the present advocate, fine parts of our civil society. They are doing a fine Dr Stuart Burgess, has effectively carried out these job, speaking up for their interests in rural England, responsibilities with imagination, tireless energy, drive, but in many ways they are specific vested interests, so passion and focus. With the two parties currently nor do I see them providing the independence that we forming coalition government having had a strong want in a rural voice. track record on rural advocacy when in opposition—I I put it to the Minister that I shall be happy to give point particularly to the Minister, the noble Lord, ground to him on his wish to abolish the Commission Lord Taylor of Holbeach who, on some occasions for Rural Communities if he can continue to give this when I have spoken on rural issues, has given me the country what it has had since the days of Lloyd thumbs-up from the Benches opposite—many of us George—that is, an independent rural voice that speaks, were looking forward with high expectations of a by appointment, with the authority of the Prime Minister heightened ministerial awareness of, and response to, in telling us what is really happening and telling us the the needs of rural Britain. However, within the current truth regardless of fear or favour from the Government. climate of cutbacks and of retrenchment of public I beg to move. services—I of course recognise the huge challenges that are facing the Government in this respect—there is a great risk that the voice, the partnership voice, of The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, I am very rural communities will now be lost. With so many pleased to support the amendment. Like the noble issues impacting on the sustainability of rural communities, Lord, Lord Knight, I do so with a strong sense of déjà there is arguably a greater need than ever for this vu, as I made my maiden speech in your Lordships’ independent rural champion. House on the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Bill. I recall speaking then about the real Like the noble Lord, Lord Knight, I do not hold a need from the perspective of a rural diocese such as brief for the continuation of the commission, particularly mine, which covers the whole of Devon, for a body in its present form, but it is about independence—robust that could effectively hold the Government to account independence—and about partnership. The sums involved on the nature of rural policy and the delivery of that here are not vast. For around £250,000 per annum we policy. No Minister, no matter how good, can do that could ensure that this voice is not lost and that we will for himself. At that time, people in my diocese were continue to receive that evidence-based dimension— talking about the need for an independent body and detached from Government—that will ensure better not one that would be a creature of Defra. Therefore, I informed debate about the future for rural communities. spoke about looking forward to a robust Commission I am afraid that a rural communities policy unit, for Rural Communities, with commissioners drawn internal to Defra, simply will not do the same. from rural communities, from the voluntary sector and from academic institutions which had their fingers Lord Cameron of Dillington: My Lords, I should on the pulse of rural England. Such a partnership have declared before speaking to the last amendment would be most effective in highlighting issues as they that I have an interest as a farmer and landowner. I emerged in rural areas and advocate the policies needed also declare for this amendment that I am an ex-chair to address them. Therefore, it was about a rural voice of the Countryside Agency and an ex-rural advocate. I and rural advocacy springing out of a rural partnership. am not sure that being an “ex” anything is a declarable I do not think that we have been disappointed. interest but it probably helps if everybody knows Rural England has benefited in many ways from the where I am coming from. existence of the commission and its work. It has The Commission for Rural Communities has been shown itself to have a robust independence; truly a surprising success in providing the evidence, speaking independent membership; and a good track record of up on behalf of the countryside and challenging the evidence-based advocacy, especially on behalf of the Government to look differently at the problems of most remote and sparsely populated rural areas of our rural communities—in particular, the still unrecognised land. issues of rural deprivation, which continue to come Alongside the work of the commission has also very low on every Government’s priorities. The CRC been that of the role of its chairman as rural advocate, has had successes with the commissioning of research which has been highly effective in ensuring that the which, because the results are uncomfortable for the findings of the commission, and the chairman’s own Government of the day, would almost certainly have 767 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 768

[LORD CAMERON OF DILLINGTON] occasions is to steal a car. How does someone get to never been commissioned by an ordinary civil servant training or to a job? The Department for Work and within Defra. The results are uncomfortable for the Pensions is totally unaware of the fact that if it put Government of the day because usually they throw money into Wheels to Work to help young, first-time down the gauntlet saying, “This is the situation, what employees get to a job, it would save itself a lot of are you going to do about it?”. money, but it does not support Wheels to Work schemes It is not only Defra which gets challenged. There because it does not really understand. was a report by the CRC on the depth and impact of My question is: who will rural-proof those fuel poverty in rural England. Of course, that challenges departments? Who will be bold, critical and outspoken the Department for Transport. Insight into maternity on behalf of the countryside? Certainly not departmental services in rural England challenges the Department civil servants—the words bold, critical and outspoken of Health. Reports on financial inclusion, rural social do not really feature in their career path. How does the housing and village schools challenge the Treasury, Minister envisage rural-proofing happening in future? the DCLG and the department of education respectively, Perhaps it could be through a Committee of this and so on. House. Believe me, you need to have expertise and you In terms of fulfilling the Government’s tests of a need to be bloody-minded to be a rural advocate, and permissible public body, I maintain that the CRC’s I should have thought that both those characteristics activities definitely require political impartiality and can easily be found in your Lordships’ House. need it to act independently to establish the facts. I I recognise that there are Ministers in the current accept that the economics of the day may preclude the Government who understand those issues, but, as the existence of the CRC in its current form, which is why noble Lord, Lord Knight, said: is that good enough? it is being abolished, but I do not believe that the What about future Governments? Are the current Government’s proposed successor arrangements, based Government betraying the countryside in the long on a rural communities policy unit in Defra, will result run? All the departments and their civil servants matter; in a rural champion, even under Mr Richard Benyon all the Ministers their staff within all the departments MP, who has already been mentioned and whom I need to be continuously and publicly exposed to those know and respect. Such a body could not give the issues. That just will not happen without a politically independence of thought and vigorous championing independent rural advocate of some description. of all the rural injustices needed after decades of I beg the Government to have a rethink, not necessarily general government inertia by all parties. about the CRC but about the vital role of an independent Along with others, the real question I want to ask is rural advocate who can ensure that all parts of perhaps more important than the existence of the government, and not just this Government but the CRC. I regret that I have not seen the letter referred to next one, hear and understand the voice of the countryside by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. How will rural-proofing in all their doings. As your Lordships can probably be carried out in future? The rural-proofing role of the gather, I feel pretty strongly about this. It would be a Commission for Rural Communities and the rural tragedy if the countryside were to lose that independent advocate was an important part of the Natural voice. Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006, which has already been referred to. In fact, it was the essence Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I have a great deal of of the rural communities part of that Act. Rural-proofing sympathy with all three speeches that have just been is about getting the really important big-spending made. I declare various interests. I am a farmer in departments to consider how they equitably deliver Suffolk, but I have some background experience myself their services in the countryside, especially to the because I was for 12 years on the Countryside Commission remote countryside, in the same way as they deliver to under the brilliant chairmanship of the noble Lord, the towns. Lord Barber of Tewkesbury. I was for eight years on That involves everything from health, jobseeker the Rural Development Commission, chaired by Lord advice, sports facilities, education and training, and Shuttleworth and then the noble Lord, Lord Vinson. justice to business advice. I always remember that They had different, important, functions. They were when I was rural advocate, the DTI produced a then amalgamated, which may have been doubtful. manufacturing paper. I said, “Have you rural-proofed Both bodies gave independent advice to Ministers. Of this paper”, and it said, “What’s manufacturing got to course, the Countryside Agency, of which the noble do with the countryside?”. I said, “Actually, there are Lord, Lord Cameron, was a distinguished chairman, more manufacturing industries in the countryside than fulfilled that role. there are in the towns”. The DTI seemed oblivious to All that is left now, apart from the body that we are that. How do businesses access training and business talking about, is Natural England, which has made advice? Can we ensure that they have access to fast the awful mistake of becoming a bit of a pressure broadband? For that matter, under the current Postal group itself instead of being an objective adviser to Services Bill, how can they post parcels at their local government. As I tried to explain to your Lordships at post offices, which are getting fewer and fewer? Second Reading, there is a crucial difference between All too often—in fact, almost always—urban civil a pressure group and an advisory group to government. servants ignore or are unaware of the difficulties of The advisory group is meant to give objective advice, delivery in the countryside. How does someone get to particularly advice on the views of pressure groups. hospital? That question often never crosses their mind. Pressure groups have a totally legitimate role. The How does someone get to court? I have frequently CPRE was mentioned, and I was for five years its joked that the best way to get to court on many chairman; it was and is a very effective pressure group. 769 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 770

There is a real danger of a lack of rural interest and Democrats—have been completely silent on this issue. understanding. This was very noticeable under the I know that the people of Cornwall will be saddened if previous Government. This Government are more the CRC is abolished and will not be convinced that naturally attuned, in many ways, to the countryside the Government proposals can possibly represent an and rural matters. In that respect, the coalition is a appropriate response to address the silencing of rural particularly happy combination because Tories and communities. Liberals have traditionally had a closer relationship to rural areas than has the Labour Party; it is just an 5.45 pm historical fact. That is not meant to be a criticism of Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, I have been the Labour Party, it is just a comment on the historical trying hard to be good, but I am afraid I have now evolution of our political system. It is important that been tempted by some compelling arguments on the this dimension should continue in one way or another. point about independence. I would observe in passing We have ACRE, which is a body arranged by counties. that my noble friend Lord Marlesford has left out one I was for some years the president of Suffolk ACRE. of his jobs. The last time I looked him up, I saw that he In fact, I am now the president of the Suffolk Preservation was the chairman of Marlesford Parish Council, so he Society, which is a county branch of the CPRE. really does know the grass roots in a village in Suffolk. I hope that the Minister will be able to answer some But that is, as it were, by the way. of the points that have been made and questions that I want to distance myself in one respect from what have been asked. It is an important aspect of this the noble Lord, Lord Myners, has just said, much country, and I would hate to feel that we were dependent though I admire him from contacts of old, but I do on civil servants, many of whom are neither sympathetic think it is nonsense to suggest that most of the Ministers to, nor have much understanding of, the issues which in the present Administration are primarily from and need to be dealt with. knowledgeable about urban rather than rural backgrounds. It simply is not true. I thought that I Lord Myners: I have no interests to declare. I have should put that on the record. never chaired a rural agency. I now understand why: The noble Lord, Lord Knight of Weymouth, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford held most of those introduced his amendment in a moderate but compelling appointments. However, I speak as a Member of the way. He said that he was not really seeking to defend Labour Benches and somebody with a strong association the status quo, but to ensure that there was an independent with a rural area, namely the county of Cornwall. I voice, which links with some other arguments that will am disappointed that the Government are proposing arise later in the Bill. There is force in his argument to abolish the CRC, which has done a fine job in about the notion that what is provided by an independent ensuring that rural matters receive appropriate attention body can be substituted for by a unit in a department. and consideration from all parts of government. I In my view, that is complete and utter rubbish. Whatever witnessed that myself, as a junior Minister in the else, I think we need an injection of independence in previous Government. this, and that is the positive point, if I may put it that way, that I hope my noble friend may be able to The move to urbanisation is a global phenomenon. respond to. We must address the weakening of the rural voice. We may talk about the national experience, but the issues Baroness Quin: My Lords, I rise briefly to support confronting people living in rural areas are very different the amendment of my noble friend and the right from those affecting metro-centred urban areas. reverend Prelates and to say that I am struck by the The Government and the leadership of oppositions powerful contributions that have been made in this tend largely to be populated by people whose relevant short debate. They have been strongly in favour of the experience is much closer to that of the urban environment idea of an independent champion for the countryside than the rural one. Moreover, quite frankly, the Minister and for the continuation in some way or other of the must know that the savings to be made by doing this kind of work that the CRC has been engaged in are minimal. I cannot believe that this proposal received recently. I was glad that it tempted the noble Lord, any close consideration by the Government. It was Lord Newton, to ignore his previous vow of good simply another name added to a long list in which the conduct and join in the debate, thus adding his very macho challenge was to make that list as long as useful voice to those of other speakers. possible. I cannot credibly believe that a rural unit My noble friend Lord Knight and the right reverend within Defra can possibly replicate the need which is Prelates spoke from personal knowledge about the currently being met by the CRC. We know that the creation of the CRC and of the good reasons behind civil servants working in this area recognise that they it. Certainly in its brief existence, if that is what it work primarily for the Government and Ministers. As proves to be, it has done a lot of valuable work and has the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, said, they will not highlighted a number of important issues. It has addressed show a robustness of view or a willingness to be rural issues throughout the whole country. My noble outspoken and to challenge their senior colleagues or friend Lord Myners mentioned Cornwall and I would the Ministers in their department. mention the commission’s concerns about the future Why on earth are the Government doing this? What of the upland areas in my part of Northumberland. on earth is a Government who, so the noble Lord, Indeed, the work of the CRC has been widely supported Lord Marlesford, tells us, speak for the rural community in this House in the various debates that we have held allowing this to happen? Further, I am deeply disappointed in relation to its reports—in particular, the report on that the six Members of Parliament in the other place the upland areas and the report on the future of rural from Cornwall—three Conservatives and three Liberal communities generally. 771 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 772

[BARONESS QUIN] commission has done and its considerable efforts in I add my personal note of thanks to the CRC. I this role to date. The Government have concluded that chair the Franco-British Council and not long ago we no individual needs to be so designated in the future as had a Franco-British conference on agriculture which, they have very strong rural credentials of their own, despite our well trailed differences on the CAP, turned which I will come to in due course, up to and including out to be a harmonious occasion thanks to our common the Prime Minister himself and all my colleagues on belief in the importance of the future of rural areas the ministerial team in Defra. Again, I remind noble and in measures that are vital for the prosperity of Lords what Defra stands for: Department for those areas. In that conference the CRC and Dr Stuart Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. It was created Burgess in particular played a very valuable role for by the party opposite specifically to be able to focus which I would like to thank him. All speakers have not just on the environment and farming but on rural referred to the importance of having an independent affairs. A great many of us have close links with rural champion so I hope the Government will give us communities and considerable experience of rural affairs. details of how they expect that important function to I shall say in due course a word or two about how be carried forward and how that independent role can we intend to make sure that we champion these rural be safeguarded. I hope, too, that the Government will issues, but I can give an assurance, which I think the pick up on the points made by the noble Lord, Lord noble Lord, Lord Knight, wanted, that if the change Cameron, about rural-proofing. Those issues are also proves not be as effective as we believe it will be, we extremely important. will always be willing to revisit these matters. This is a Ministers come and go, as has been pointed out. I Government who listen; that was the point behind the do not altogether accept what the noble Lord, Lord letter that my right honourable friend sent. We do not Marlesford, was saying about Labour versus Conservative believe that there is a shortage of independent voices in terms of agricultural knowledge and expertise. When outside government who are willing to act as advocates I was a Minister in the agricultural department, partly for rural people. My noble friend Lord Marlesford because of the very big Labour victory in 1997, many referred to the CPRE, of which he was a former Labour MPs represented rural constituencies and knocked distinguished chairman. My own late father was a at my door very effectively at that time. Some Ministers chairman of the CPRE, and the noble Baroness, Lady come into departments with a great deal of knowledge Parminter, who is not in her place, has also worked for about their subject and some do not. Continuing to the CPRE. I use the CPRE as just one example. It is offer valuable independent and impartial advice is not as though there is a shortage of people both in this vital. I do not accept all the comments that were made House and elsewhere who can speak up for rural about civil servants, many of whom, in my experience, matters and make sure that voices outside government can be bold and imaginative, and I welcome that. But I can be heard on this issue. applaud the idea of continuing with a rural advocate I again emphasise that the name of our department that is going to be effective for the future and I look is the Department for Environment, Food and Rural forward to hearing from the Minister how that is Affairs. In our role as rural champions, and in the going to be safeguarded. ministerial team, there is one particular Minister, my honourable friend Richard Benyon—the noble Lord, Lord Henley: My Lords, the noble Baroness refers Lord Knight, referred to him—who will work closely to Ministers coming and going. One of my noble with colleagues across all other departments. One friends quoted from PG Wodehouse a day or two ago. should not think of this as a matter just for civil I remind the House of the remark: “She was a good servants; it goes beyond that. It is a matter for Ministers cook, as good cooks go, and as good cooks go, she in Defra and for Ministers pursuing these matters went”. I hope I will not be in that position, but I note across departments. Coming back into government, I that my noble friend Lord Marlesford, as my noble have found that there is much greater talk between, friend Lord Newton said, has served in a rural capacity and much less of what we might refer to the “silo-isation” as chairman of the Marlesford Parish Council. I never of, departments, particularly in this new coalition rose to those dizzy heights but, like many other noble Government. It will be for my honourable friend to Lords, I have served as a parish councillor and I make sure that these matters are properly taken into imagine there is a great deal of expertise in this House, account in making policy across government and that just as there is in all departments in government. I will policy is appropriately rural-proofed. return to that point later. I thank the noble Lord, Lord As a result of that, an expanded rural policies unit Knight, for mentioning the fact that I wrote to him. I within the department will support my honourable wrote to all those who spoke in the debate that we had friend and all other Defra Ministers in their role as in Committee. I signed the letter off two days ago, so I rural champions. The unit, which will be the centre for apologise to the noble Lord for the fact that he received all expertise, will support and co-ordinate across it only today and to other noble Lords who have not government activity that is of critical importance to received it. I will certainly make it available to other rural communities. The unit will represent a significant noble Lords if it assists them in further discussions on increase in capacity within government, having come this matter. from the CRC. It is now almost fully staffed, with I join others in paying tribute to Dr Burgess. The 12 members of the new team having come from the Prime Minister has written to Dr Burgess as chair of CRC. It is currently developing its work programme the commission to confirm that the role of the rural and improving effective links with organisations advocate would not continue and to thank him for representing rural interests. It has substantially expanded everything that he has done and for everything the evidence, statistics and intelligence capacity to enable 773 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 774 whoever happens to be in government to build and when the Minister was not listening to what the debate maintain a strong rural evidence base. That evidence was saying about an independent and impartial voice will inform the unit’s priorities and be used to influence for rural England. policy across government, ensuring that rural concerns I am not seeking to frustrate the clear determination and potential solutions are heard by decision-makers. of the Government to get rid of the Commission for The unit will operate transparently and will publish all Rural Communities, much as I regret that decision its evidence. It will work to build on the relationships and do not support it, and I do not want to test the with stakeholders that the department currently enjoys. opinion of the House now. Those of us who have I hope with those assurances— spoken in the debate will look carefully at the Minister’s words and the reassurances that he has attempted to The Lord Bishop of Exeter: I thank the Minister for give. No doubt we will discuss among ourselves how giving way. I do not think that he has answered the we wish to pursue the cause of an independent and really important point that was raised by the noble impartial voice for rural England in the future. If he Lord, Lord Marlesford, about the difference between wants to engage with us, we would welcome that in a body that exists to give independent advice and trying to further the reassurances he has given us. advocacy and many pressure groups. He has pointed Then perhaps we will be able to have the independent to the existence of many pressure groups, but does he and impartial voice that Members of your Lordships’ recognise that to take us down this route will leave us House wish to see continued. for the first time in more than 100 years, since the time of Lloyd George, with no body to give that independent Amendment 9 withdrawn. advice and advocacy to government and no body that does not exist simply as one pressure group among many? Amendment 10 Moved by Lord Low of Dalston 6pm 10: Schedule 1, page 15, line 25, leave out “Disabled Persons Lord Henley: I do not accept that point. There are Transport Advisory Committee.” outside bodies that can offer advice to the Government and we will listen to that advice. We will listen to Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I shall speak also Parliament and to the various committees in the other to Amendment 21. In Committee I pointed out the place and in this House that will offer independent valuable function that the Disabled Persons Transport advice and make their points, just as pressure groups Advisory Committee performed in focusing attention will offer advice and make their arguments. However, on the transport needs of disabled people. I do not within government, we believe that this can be done want to go over that ground again today but, given the more effectively within the department, with the fact that DPTAC was performing a valuable function, appropriate Ministers and their teams responding to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, and I were concerned those matters. With that in mind, we believe that there that we should have a better idea of the successor are sufficient safeguards. arrangements that the Government proposed to put in If one took the right reverend Prelate’s point to its place to ensure that the distinctive extra dimension logical conclusion, one would need an independent that DPTAC brings to policy-making and implementation body to discuss almost every issue. It is right that these is retained. should be matters for the Government. There is I am pleased to say that constructive discussions appropriate expertise among Ministers and appropriate have taken place since Committee and I am most knowledge and interest. That is why I have set out the grateful to the Minister, the Bill team, officials from position of my honourable friend Mr Benyon in another the Department for Transport and the noble Lord, place and why we have brought some of the staff from Lord Newton, for the time and effort that they have the CRC within the department. We believe that will been willing to put into these discussions. be sufficient to meet the task. Amendment 21 seeks to reflect the understanding However, as I made clear to the noble Lord, Lord which I think we reached at the end of those discussions: Knight—this was his concern—if an independent namely, that an order abolishing DPTAC would not advocate was needed again, we would of course be be made until robust successor arrangements were in prepared to look at that issue if the change proved not place on which the Government had consulted relevant to be as effective as we believe it will be. I think the stakeholders, organisations for disabled people, their noble Lord was looking at the individual advocate families and carers; furthermore, that there should be rather than the CRC as whole. That is what is behind a report to Parliament setting out the successor this debate and why I am trying to give him that arrangements and the consultations that had taken assurance. I hope the noble Lord will feel able to place on them, and indicating that they have broad withdraw his amendment. support. If the Minister can confirm that that is also his understanding of the discussions that we had, we Lord Knight of Weymouth: My Lords, we have had might be able to go forward on that basis. I beg a useful debate that, with the exception of the last to move. speaker—the Minister—achieved unanimity. He spoke a great deal about the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and that the clue is in the The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman): Ihaveto name, but if you take “rural affairs” from the title the inform the House that if this amendment is agreed to, department becomes “Def”—and there were times I cannot call Amendment 21 by reason of pre-emption. 775 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 776

Baroness Wilkins: I have my name to these amendments While DPTAC might have lacked visionary strategic and I regret that, due to illness, I was unable to speak leadership in the recent past, candidates are available in Committee in support of the retention of DPTAC. to take the chair who would give the committee the vibrant leadership required to meet all the Government’s DPTAC has been held in huge respect for very good aspirations for greater flexibility. DPTAC has been a reason over the past 20 years. It has brought together model of good practice. It is a model that should be all those who need to be involved in order to make extended across the public service, not abolished. If sure that the needs of disabled people are met by the the Minister is intent on doing so, finding an alternative transport sector. The committee includes not only arrangement that will better it will be a very tall order disabled people covering the wide range of impairment indeed. types but, most importantly, experts covering the transport field—for example, people who are expert in the bus industry, trains and so on—people who the industry Baroness Grey-Thompson: My Lords, I also have will listen to in finding solutions to access problems. my name to this amendment, and I endorse the words As a result, DPTAC has worked co-operatively with of the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, the industry to sort out how to make the access policy Lady Wilkins. Disabled people as yet do not have work. It is hard to see how a replacement body would equal opportunities to use transport. It is a complex be able to achieve better results. issue. For disabled people it is incredibly hard to be spontaneous. If you wish to travel by train, you have DPTAC has performed an indispensible role in to book 24 or 48 hours in advance. You have to check drawing attention to the transport needs of disabled that the toilets on the trains are accessible. I know too people and in ensuring that our profile is raised both many people who, like me, find it incredibly difficult to externally with the transport industries and internally navigate around the UK. Travelling from London to with the Department for Transport. Without it, it the north-east of England, you sometimes have to be would have been all too easy for these issues to go by put off at York to use facilities. It is incredibly difficult the board. Indeed, with the closure of the mobility for disabled people to do many things that many unit within the department, there is evidence that the non-disabled people take for granted. department has lost its focus on disability issues. Without It is important to have an organisation such as DPTAC there will be no one to fight for disabled DPTAC because in 492 days and 525 days—just 70 and people, whose interests are all too tempting to overlook 75 Wednesdays—we will have the Olympics and when budgets are tight and there is no one to fight our Paralympic Games in the UK. There is no doubt that corner. the Games will be wonderful but, as a country, we will In his reply in Committee, the Minister sounded be assessed on so much more than the athletics somewhat complacent about the transport sector achievements at Games times; we will be assessed on incorporating the needs of disabled people into the how we move people around the city. I declare an mainstream of transport planning and delivery. I agree interest in that I sit on a number of LOCOG committees that all modes of transport have been transformed in looking at athlete engagement and diversity. I am also the past two and a half decades, but a great deal still a board member of Transport for London. During remains to be done. There are very few accessible Games time we will have more disabled people in buses in many parts of the country, disabled people London than ever before at any one time. There will be still cannot use half the tubes in London, timetables significant numbers of disabled tourists and large are still inaccessible to people with learning disabilities, numbers of disabled volunteers, who have been actively and the taxi situation desperately needs sorting out. encouraged by LOCOG. There is still an essential need for DPTAC’s focus and In addition, we will have 4,500 disabled athletes for technical expertise. Moreover, the provision now made the Paralympic Games who, I accept, will be using by mainstream providers must be monitored to ensure dedicated Games transport much of the time. That in that they provide the access that they claim exists. itself will require considerable stakeholder consultation The Minister argued that DPTAC needed to be and work. However, those athletes will be using other replaced, modes both inside and outside London around Games time to get to pre-Games training camps and to return “to increase flexibility and accountability to the taxpayer”.—[Official later. The expectation in the UK is that we will have an Report, 11/1/11; col. 1320.] incredibly accessible country. For me, it is essential It seems strange that an expert committee, which gave that we have a body such as DPTAC that can influence its advice for free for over 20 years, might not be seen pre-Games. We can also learn from the experience of as very good value to the taxpayer. However, that moving significant numbers of disabled people around aside, I agree that there might now be an argument so that after the Games we have a truly meaningful that DPTAC’s technical expertise could be augmented legacy for disabled people for transport. by more of a focus on the behavioural side of transport issues—for example, the problems with unco-operative Lord Newton of Braintree: My Lords, my name is bus drivers; the behaviour of other passengers, especially not on this amendment. I might have kept my head those who refuse to remove their buggies from the down had the noble Lord, Lord Low, not blown my wheelchair space; and especially the need to give disabled cover by indicating that I had been conspiring with people the confidence that it is safe to use public him over this matter in the period since we last discussed transport and that they will be able to reach their it. I ought to declare an interest in that I have my own destination—so that we use the accessible transport problems these days. However, what is prompting me that has been provided. to intervene is that I have had a long experience of 777 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 778 these difficulties through connections with many voluntary Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, my noble friend Lady organisations for disabled people, and not least as Wilkins, the noble Viscount, Lord Slim, and the noble Minister for disabled people, albeit a long while ago, Lord, Lord Newton. I was very interested to hear his between about 1982 and 1986. That kind of experience role in the conspiracy. leaves you with an abiding sense of the range of The Disabled Persons Transport Advisory Committee difficulties and—although we have made huge progress— has played a vital role in advising government and the extent to which things still need to be done. industry on accessible transport systems. Its focus on I do not have quite the same problems as the noble ensuring that disabled people have the same access to Baronesses, Lady Wilkins and Lady Grey-Thompson, transport as anyone else has been key to many because I am still able to get about to a significant improvements over the past 25 years. However, as the extent. As far as the railways are concerned, I pay noble Lord, Lord Freud, acknowledged in Committee, tribute to the almost unfailing courtesy of the staff at despite considerable improvements in access to all railway stations, who in many cases do not wait to be modes of transport over that period, there is still much asked but come and say, “Do you need some help?”. to do. We heard some of this just this afternoon. My However, if you want to know where the limitations noble friend Lady Wilkins talked about those with still are, let me tell you that Ipswich station in Suffolk, learning disabilities. The noble Baroness, Lady Grey- where I have been twice today—the county town of a Thompson, said that it is difficult for disabled people sizeable though not macro county—has no means of to be spontaneous and spoke with great authority getting someone like me or the two noble Baronesses about the high expectations in the UK in relation to from one platform to the other, except what you might the Olympics. call a man with the red flag to see you across the line We know that RADAR has pressed the point that when there are no trains about. I have missed connections major investment in accessible transport has not yet as a result. It is true that they are building lifts at the been matched by a major increase in confidence among moment, but they are two months late. disabled people in getting out and about. A huge What should have been available today is not going amount of awareness-raising remains to be done because to be available for another couple of months. That is a we have not yet delivered a truly integrated system that two-month delay in six. Network Rail does not appear guarantees independence and safe mobility. Of course, to think that this is a matter of any great consequence, this is essential if disabled people are to have proper from what they are reported to have said to one of the access to services and jobs. Suffolk MPs. There are plenty of problems that need to be tackled, and I have some experience and knowledge We were told in Committee that issues around of them. I certainly do not think that they can be disability and transport had moved on, as it were, dismissed, and they vary enormously from one form since DPTAC was put on a statutory basis, and these of disability to another. That is the other key point matters were embedded in the core approach of the with which I think the noble Lord, Lord Low, would Department for Transport. That is as it should be, but agree. The sorts of things that someone like me requires it is not a reason to abandon DPTAC; in fact, it would are one thing, but if you are wheelchair-bound it is seem to be an acknowledgement of its success and its another thing. If you are deaf, blind or suffering from relevance. It has its statutory functions and is a statutory one of a variety of other conditions, another set of consultee when rail vehicle accessibility regulations things are required. It is crucial that whatever arrangements are to be introduced. The Minister might tell us what, are put in place should reflect and represent that if DPTAC is to go, will replace those arrangements. diversity with real knowledge of the differences between DPTAC has not just been passive, sitting back and various forms of disability. That is one of the key waiting to be consulted; its strength is that it has been things here. I hope my noble friend will be able to proactive and an independent voice, mirroring the respond constructively once again so that I can applaud debate that took place under the last amendment. him and stop being a nuisance. The Minister has a high hurdle to overcome if he is to convince us of the merits of his case. We have 6.15 pm agreed that disabled people are the experts in their own lives and it is their voices that we should be Viscount Slim: My Lords, I speak because of my listening to this afternoon. DPTAC has been a success; work with veterans. I remind the Minister, if he needs it has knowledge, experience, commitment and a track reminding, that a veteran can be an old fellow like me record, so why try to fix what is not broken? Cynics or he can be a young man of 18 or 19 with no legs. may say that Ministers have to meet their quota of There are many people who use wheelchairs, who are quangos to be dealt with. If the Government are blind or who are otherwise incapacitated. Having listened determined to destroy DPTAC, we must know before to what has been said, I wonder if the Government they do so, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, made clear have really thought this problem through. I have to say when speaking to Amendment 21, what is to replace it, that, until I hear the noble Lord speak, I support the the process by which that judgment is to be made and, noble Lord, Lord Low, and the others very much in in particular, how disabled people and their families what has been said so far. I am not sure that the and carers have been engaged. We should know their Government have really gripped this problem. views on what is proposed. The Government would be wise to draw back from Lord McKenzie of Luton: My Lords, I rise in support removing DPTAC, and I urge them to do so. If they of each of these amendments, so effectively moved by do not, and the noble Lord, Lord Low, is minded to the noble Lord, Lord Low, and spoken to by the noble test the opinion of the House, he will have our support. 779 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 780

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I thank the issues of disability equality are now a core element of noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, for introducing departmental policy and delivery. This covers all this amendment and for the discussions that we had departments, but particularly the Department for between Committee and this item coming up at Report. Transport. At a practical level, although there is much They were very useful and focused the Government’s more that still can be done, access to all modes of mind on the importance of disability. All Members of travel has been transformed over the past two and half the House will, I think, share the view that while much decades. That is not to say that it was very poor before. has been achieved in making the world a better one for Rather than seeking access for disabled people as a people with disabilities, so much more remains to be specialist topic, transport operators across the sector done. I hope in responding to this debate that I can are now expected to incorporate their needs into the convey how the Government intend to approach this mainstream of their transport planning and delivery. task and give an example of how the process of Against this background, and while recognising the abolition of DPTAC is an opportunity for the valuable work that the committee has done for the Government to focus in future on tackling the task of department in areas such as accessibility and mobility the world of the disabled. policy, there is scope to reform the way in which It was really very useful to have the contributions disability advice is delivered. from all noble Lords from around the House on this The Department for Transport intends to issue a issue. The noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, said that discussion document before the summer to inform its there needed to be a new focus not only on the proposals in this regard. This will enable the Government physical world but also on the behavioural world in to take the concerns of stakeholders into account in which disabled people had to live. While disabled the development of successor arrangements. I know people make use of the facilities that may be there, that the noble Lord, Lord Low, and other noble Lords operatives and members of the public may not be who have spoken in this debate, are concerned to aware of the necessity for behaviour also to adapt to ensure that the details of successor arrangements, others’ disabilities. I am grateful for the involvement of supported by relevant stakeholders, are in place before my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree, because I an order to abolish DPTAC is laid before Parliament, think in the Ipswich model he shows that there is so and I was grateful for the opportunity to meet with the much still to be done—albeit the lifts are there. There noble Lord, Lord Low, and my noble friend Lord is a huge task in making the world of the disabled less Newton of Braintree prior to Report to discuss their disadvantaged than it is for others, as the noble Baroness, concerns. I am delighted that this proposed amendment Lady Grey-Thompson, pointed out when she graphically gives the Government the chance to put on record the drew the attention of the House to the contrast between fact that the Department for Transport does not intend the world of the able-bodied and the challenges facing to bring forward an order to abolish DPTAC until, those with a wide range of disabilities. following a substantial consultation process with a wide range of stakeholders, the department has a clear proposition as to the successor arrangements that will Lord Newton of Braintree: I had not really thought be put in place. about mentioning Ipswich until I got up, but it is not I can further assure noble Lords that, under Clause 10, just disabled people who are affected. I once stood on the explanatory document laid with any draft order one side of Ipswich station with a lady with a baby in a will need to set out how a Minister considers that the pushchair who could not use the stairs and a woman considerations in Clause 8(2) have been met. These with a suitcase nearly as big as she was who could not considerations, alongside existing legislation such as use the stairs, either. I do not think that the other two the Equality Act 2010, will require Ministers to consider wanted to go to London, but I did—and I stood and equalities issues when bringing forward an order under watched the London train come in and I stood and the Bill. Until those successor arrangements are established watched the London train go out. This is just not and firm proposals are in place, there is no question of sensible in this day and age. It is not just disabled abolishing DPTAC. Given this, I hope the noble Lord people who are affected. will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Well, I think that Members of the House would acknowledge that and would Lord Low of Dalston: My Lords, I thank all noble acknowledge from their direct experience of their own Lords who have spoken, in all cases with a great deal family and friends how difficult sometimes the physical more eloquence than I did myself—and also with world can be. greater transparency, because most noble Lords who I acknowledge the contribution made by the noble spoke declared an interest, and I did not do so myself. Viscount, Lord Slim, and the role of veterans. They I shall waste no more time and declare my interest as a are individuals to whom we owe such a great deal and disabled person. who find themselves, through their sacrifice, in the I thank the Minister for his response. I am not world of the disabled. Often the fittest and most completely persuaded by the mainstreaming argument. robust of individuals find themselves having to cope I have always thought—indeed, I have always found—that with the world of the disabled and the contrast of that when everyone is given a responsibility, it can all too world. easily turn out to be the case that nobody has a I want to demonstrate that the Government’s approach responsibility. I do not have a problem with everybody to disability has moved forward substantially since 1985, having a responsibility, but—especially if the responsibility when the DPTAC was established, and the important is a specialised one, requiring specialist expertise—it is 781 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 782 usually essential that there is someone around, some Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland, with perhaps specialist with specialist expertise, to keep them up to some, I gather, going to the General Consumer Council the mark. for Northern Ireland. I think that, having listened to the debate, the The intended transfer of such functions therefore Minister can be in no doubt about the strength of stands quite appropriately, as the Government envisage feeling from all parts of the House that robust the transfer of those functions, within the powers of arrangements need to be put in place to replace DPTAC. Clause 5, which is the power to transfer functions. I The Government, in the words of the noble Lord, see no reason for it to be within the powers of the Lord McKenzie, have a high hurdle to clear if your Minister under Clause 1, which is the power to abolish. Lordships are to be satisfied that it would ever be Indeed, given that Consumer Focus was set up by an appropriate to abolish DPTAC. However, from what Act of Parliament, with the full support of this House, the Minister has said, it is clear that the Government as late as 2007, with its role, remit, powers and have it in mind to put in place successor arrangements responsibilities well debated and agreed at that time, it to provide the specialised advice which is needed in would seem the most extraordinary use of the Clause 1 this case. We still do not know what those arrangements powers to abolish it without primary legislation. It is are, but the Minister has made it clear that the Government not, in the words of an earlier debate, a dead duck or intend to publish proposals and consult on them and anything like it. that an order to abolish DPTAC will not be brought That is not what had been planned, in so far as we forward without a document explaining how the have been told. Its statutory work on behalf of consumers, safeguards in Clause 8(2), as well as other equalities young people, old people and those in rural areas—the considerations, have been met. vulnerable throughout the United Kingdom—is projected I hope that I can also take it from the Minister’s to continue. Consumer Focus’s powers to seek market remarks that the Government would not wish to bring information and to represent users’ interests in the forward proposals for successor arrangements until setting of prices, the taking up of complaints and of they were sure that they had the support of relevant super-complaints on behalf of all consumers—all these, stakeholders. In the circumstance that there will be no we understand, are destined to remain and simply to order to abolish DPTAC and that there will be a full be transferred to Citizens Advice. opportunity for consultation—indeed, that there will Your Lordships are well aware of the superb record be opportunity for your Lordships to scrutinise the of the National Consumer Council—the Minister was, Government’s proposals and how adequately they fulfil of course, a prior chair—and, more recently, of Consumer the function presently carried out by DPTAC—and Focus. We are all aware of the savings in energy bills given the Minister’s assurances, I beg leave to withdraw that it has made for millions of consumers. We also the amendment. know of its work in establishing ombudsman schemes and in improving markets to work better for consumers. Amendment 10 withdrawn. It has statutory powers to demand information from across all sectors of the economy, particularly in relation to energy and postal services. It has a statutory duty to Amendment 11 have a particular regard to the needs of the disabled, Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach the elderly, the poor and vulnerable workers and to represent consumers across all four nations by having 11: Schedule 1, page 15, line 27, at end insert “other than the a presence there. All of these will, we assume, be one established pursuant to subsection (6) of that section (Wales)” retained. So unless there is more that we do not know of, surely it is much more appropriate for Consumer Amendment 11 agreed. Focus to belong in Schedule 5, not in Schedule 1. On that basis, I beg to move the amendment. Amendment 12 not moved.

Amendment 13 Lord Borrie: My Lords, in the course of many Moved by Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town debates on the Bill, the question has repeatedly been raised, “If such-and-such a body is abolished, what is 13: Schedule 1, page 16, line 6, leave out “National Consumer going to replace it? Who will do the tasks that the Council (“Consumer Focus”).” abolished body has performed?”. That is a very significant question in regard to this amendment, appropriately Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: My Lords, the put forward by my noble friend Lady Hayter, because effect of these two amendments would be to move although the Government have thrown out a few of Consumer Focus—the National Consumer Council, what I might call titbits of information—that Citizens as it is probably better known to the House—from Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland will give a certain Schedule 1, in other words the list to be abolished, to amount of advice and will be better resourced than Schedule 5, whereby its functions would be transferred they are at the moment, struggling though the Government elsewhere. It is clear from everything that the Government are for resources on all sorts of matters—the Government have said that they do not wish to abolish the role, have also indicated that, so far as enforcement of the functions and duties of Consumer Focus, nor, indeed, law is concerned, where retailers or others have to lose its expertise and specialist market understanding. contravened pieces of legislation, the trading standards The plans as set out are to merge all these functions officers employed by local authorities are to do the job and duties under two independent charities, Citizens of helping the consumer. 783 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 784

[LORD BORRIE] Lord Whitty: My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Even if one accepts that to a degree and ignores the Borrie has hinted, I declare a recent interest as a consumer work of the Office of Fair Trading—as former chair of Consumer Focus. The noble Baroness, noble Lords know, I have declared an interest as a past Lady Wilcox, is one of my predecessors, as is the noble head, or director-general, of that body—there is still Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, who is here as the huge problem that the National Consumer Council well. This might seem to be a slightly esoteric debate, has over the years produced a great deal of research, but it is not. Consumer Focus, the National Consumer many studies and publications which have informed Council and the other bodies that preceded Consumer the Government, informed the Office of Fair Trading Focus have done decades of work on behalf of consumers. and informed the Department for Business, Innovation They have influenced Governments, regulators, business and Skills, as it now is. What is the substitute for that behaviour and behaviour in the public sector. It is going to be if the National Consumer Council is abolished? important that that role is preserved along with that This week I noticed, because I got a large envelope level of expertise. in my post, that in the closely related field of competition policy the Government have worked out what is going 6.45 pm to happen—in, at the moment, 100-plus pages of My noble friend Lady Hayter’s amendments seem information. At the moment it is a Green Paper, next to go with the grain of where the latest indication of it will be a White Paper and then there will be legislation. government policy suggests that the department and There is a great deal of detail on matters that we might the Government want to be. I say that with some come to shortly on Report. We are to have a merger of doubt in my voice because, as my noble friend Lord the Office of Fair Trading and the Competition Commission. Borrie has indicated, the Government’s exact strategy They are to constitute a competition and markets in this area has to a great extent been obscure, and I authority, and a whole lot of the Government’s Green fear that the Minister’s department has been buffeted Paper is taken up with how that is to be governed, what by powers around Whitehall that might be greater the governance is, how it is to work, various matters than she and her colleagues are able to exert. Originally relating to antitrust merger policy and so on. her department came out with a sensible discussion on That is the sort of consultation detail—admittedly, all the statutorily based consumer bodies and their the Government have not yet had the results of that relationships with regulators and industries, and decided consultation—that we in this House and the other to have a landscape review. Its original intention was place should have been given before the Public Bodies to bring some of those bodies together and rationalise Bill was put forward listing whole hosts of bodies the landscape because there were too many such bodies to be abolished without any explanation about any of with conflicting, or at least overlapping, duties, and them, except for a few titbits, as I have called them, of what was being achieved in one sector was not being responses in this House and elsewhere by government reflected effectively in another. I applauded that approach. Ministers about their reasons. We in this House are still It is also clearly the Government’s view that the very uncertain, even at the Report stage of the Bill, main part of Consumer Focus’s activity should be about why some of these bodies are to be abolished or carried out not by a quango but in the third sector. merged or to have their functions transferred according Some on these Benches would probably raise an eyebrow to various schedules. Thank goodness that the Government at that; I know that my noble friend Lord Borrie did have given way on Schedule 7 and withdrawn it; at not agree with me. In principle, though, I have no least we do not have that huge pending tray of bodies objection to the consumer interest being protected by that could possibly be abolished. Still, there is great a powerful and properly resourced third-sector body, uncertainty and, if she does not mind my saying so, I its role recognised in statute. In some ways, that makes am sure that my noble friend Lady Hayter will agree an enormous amount of sense. that although the Government have said some things We are not at that point, however; we are at the about this, they still have to do a lot of homework on point where the research, policy, advice and educational what is to replace the work of the National Consumer functions of Consumer Focus are in limbo. We know Council. that the Government’s intention is to transfer them to The work of that body has been splendid. The Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland. However, noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, was a distinguished the Government have not indicated which functions or chairman. Another distinguished former chairman, powers will be transferred. Some of those powers are the noble Baroness, Lady Oppenheim-Barnes, is sitting very effective, as my noble friend Lady Hayter has in her place. I am glad to say that the chairmen of the said—for example, the statutory power to require National Consumer Council, while always eminent information. To date, the Government have not said and excellent people, were not necessarily Conservatives; explicitly that they are going to transfer all those Lord Young of Dartington, my noble friend Lord powers to Citizens Advice. Likewise, Citizens Advice Whitty and others have been chairmen as well. A has not said that it wishes to accept or exert those combination of political expertise and experience has powers. As noble Lords will know, the central function been brought to bear on a body that has given advice of Citizens Advice is also dependent on significant over the years since it was set up in 1975, which is quite resources from the Minister’s department, and those a long period now. Many Governments have benefited resources have been cut. Citizens Advice has to assess from that body. What is to replace it? Have the whether it can effectively carry out those extra functions, Government given a complete answer to that? I would and we do not yet have an answer to that. be very glad if the Minister could say a little more on The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, said that government this amendment. Amendment 94 makes it explicit that functions transferred 785 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 786 to a charity—I believe I am right in saying that, apart The proposal that is embodied in the Bill, however, from British Waterways where the charity does not yet is effectively the transfer of a strategic function currently exist, this is the major area where the Government’s carried out at national level by the national consumer intention is to transfer currently statutory functions body——as we have heard—to the CAB. This does exerted by a non-departmental public body to a charity— not seem to be a sensible procedure so far as the are subject to the agreement of the charity. In a sense bureau is concerned, particularly in present circumstances. that is obvious and right but it raises a question: where At the moment, people up and down the country are the Government intend to transfer these important facing extreme difficulties as a result of the financial functions on behalf of all consumers in all sectors to a situation in which local authorities find themselves. In charity, if the charity refused or felt unable to take on Newcastle’s case, for example, the grant to the CAB those activities, what would then happen to those has been reduced by 20 per cent. At the same time, activities? although there is apparently a temporary reprieve in I am going quite a long way with the Government government support for financial advice, there is a real on this. It is not necessarily where I or the Consumer problem about maintaining nine debt advisers, who Focus board started from, but we accept some general are currently unemployed—indeed, they were placed strategy from the Government to bring some of these on notice until a reprieve was given and the £25 million things together and place them in the third sector. national funding was extended for another year. There There will be transfers. There will be a transfer of our is, however, still considerable doubt about this. Equally, functions to Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland, we are in the middle of a recession at the moment. although they will be subject to the uncertainties that I Unemployment is rising. Problems of all kinds flow have mentioned. Those uncertainties are made more from that and present themselves at the bureau. difficult by the fact that the department originally My final consideration is that we are likely to see indicated that a draft of the consultation document on significant changes in the legal aid and advice system, this change would be before the public by this stage which again will throw greater pressure on local bureaux. but we have yet to see such a draft. That uncertainty is It is in dealing with people’s individual difficulties and only part of it, though. There will also have to be complaints that the work of the bureau is at its best powers of transfer to the Consumer Council for Northern and where it will need, I suspect, to be concentrated Ireland for our postal functions. In Scotland and very significantly over the next few years against the Wales, as the Minister may be aware, parties in the very difficult background. The bureau is almost a devolved Administrations are saying that they want to franchise, in the sense that there is a national body but retain something like Consumer Focus Scotland and each bureau is independent. I frankly do not see how Consumer Focus Wales. bureaux such as those in the north-east and elsewhere, There will therefore be multiple transfers. The facing the difficulties that they are, will be able to Government have always said that they do not intend contribute significantly to the much more strategic to lose these functions. It is therefore wrong that consumer representational role that is envisaged under Consumer Focus should be in Schedule 1. Logically, the transfer of responsibilities that will flow from the according to the Government’s own presentation of measures in the Bill. I urge that the matter be reviewed their strategy, it should be in Schedule 5. I have not again. There is a great danger of undue responsibility heard Ministers or anyone in this House suggesting being passed to an organisation that will simply not be that any of the powers, functions or duties of Consumer capable of delivering but which will continue to provide Focus should be lost entirely. Therefore, they should a service to the very many people who require it now be transferred. If the Government attempt to transfer and will continue to require it in the future. to an organisation that cannot accept that transfer, It is frankly the wrong choice for the bureau to have and if they have exerted the powers under Schedule 1, accepted to undertake the Government’s offer to do the powers, duties, activities, expertise and potential to the kind of work that they would like the bureau to do do effective work on behalf of consumers are lost until nationally. It is a diversion from its real responsibility. we return to a new piece of primary legislation which For that reason alone—quite apart from the very inevitably some Government at some point will have cogent arguments advanced by my noble friends and to introduce. shared in different parts of the House—I am very These two amendments—the switch from the abolition reluctant to see the Bill go through in its proposed of Consumer Focus to a transfer of its functions—are form. in line with what we have been told is the Government’s position and what we are told are the powers that the Government will need. It is counterproductive to the Lord Stevenson of Balmacara: My Lords, we support Government’s own objective to retain it where it is. the amendment of my noble friend Lady Hayter. I thank all the other noble Lords—noble friends in particular—who have spoken on this topic. I declare Lord Beecham: My Lords, like many Members of an interest. I was, like many noble Lords in the Chamber your Lordships’ House, I am an unqualified admirer today, involved at some point with the National Consumer of the work of citizens advice bureau. I have quite a Council. I was also a member of the advisory committee long personal association with it. I helped to found a and served briefly under the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. branch of the CAB in a neighbouring borough in I enjoyed the experience very much. I also declare an Wallsend on Tyneside in the early 1970s. From time to interest as the chair of the Foundation for Credit time, as a practising solicitor, I used to attend advice Counselling, which has a relationship with the citizens sessions in the bureau and have worked closely with a advice bureau in the area of debt management and bureau in Newcastle for many years. advice, to which my noble friend Lord Beecham referred. 787 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 788

[LORD STEVENSON OF BALMACARA] document, when we see it, should give us some At the end of the excellent debate on 11 January, information, at the very least, about where the money the Minister said that she would reflect on the debate. will go that will support the functions that we have Anyone reading the debate would have realised that its been talking about this evening. What will happen to quality and the extensive references that were made the staff? How will we be assured that we will still have from all round the House to the work of the NCC and appropriate functions available to us? It is not really Consumer focus and to the worries that people had appropriate to act first and consult later but, as someone about the transfer had borne in on the Minister. I have said, better late than never. It seems to me that an read her words and took from them that she would not unanswerable case has been put forward this evening only reflect very hard on what she had heard during for a change in the way in which the consumer function that debate but that she would talk to the responsible will be dealt with. I look forward to hearing from the Minister in the other place, who, she assured us, would Minster. also be following the debate very closely. We are owed the outcome of those discussions and debates and I 7pm look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say when she responds. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness In this debate, we have again been reminded that Wilcox): My Lords, the debate today has reiterated the points that seem to come from the discussion the concerns about the proposals for reform expressed around the Bill as it affects consumer areas is that this by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, and other noble is about a transfer of functions and not about an Lords in Committee in January. As then, I am grateful abolition of those functions, which must continue. A for their contributions. The Government will consult good society requires proper concern for all consumers— fully on these proposals and will pay close attention to vulnerable as well as ordinary. There are a vast range the responses received, as well as to the points made of statutory and other functions that need to be today. I had hoped that the consultation would be carried out. The thinking that needs to go into that issued before the restrictions placed on such publications appears to be only partially developed. We talk about by the forthcoming elections in Scotland and Wales on a loss of capacity across the piece because the current 5 May. That has unfortunately not been possible. functions will not necessarily continue. Therefore, publication will now be after those elections The loss of advocacy that has been referred to is have occurred, for which I am sorry, as I know are not just for ordinary consumers but for the vulnerable, other noble Lords here today. as has the loss of accountability both to Parliament The Government firmly believe that the functions and to the wider society that is in statute in the current of Consumer Focus will be better carried out by the provisions but might not continue to be as we move Citizens Advice service, comprising Citizens Advice towards a solution that involves charities. We will lose and Citizens Advice Scotland. If these functions are the ability perhaps to gain access to information held transferred, there will be no need for the current in private companies and corporations. This will be a Consumer Focus organisation to continue to exist. serious loss to citizens advice should it take up these That is why it is in Schedule 1 to the Bill. The Citizens responsibilities, as it will not have those powers. However, Advice service is widely recognised and trusted by the if it does have these powers, it will be a very strange public. Its unique selling point is that it has local body indeed, with its ability to interrogate and hold to representation through the citizens advice bureaux in account those who have customarily been outside its communities throughout the country. It offers a presence remit. on the high street where people can call in to get These and other points seem to suggest—in the advice and information. It can cater for those who words of others who spoke earlier in this debate—that need personal contact—people who may not be there is quite a high hurdle for the Government to comfortable with an online or telephone service. It can overcome to convince us and the public more generally also assist vulnerable consumers face-to-face, identify that what they are doing is in the best interests of the their problems and help with solutions. While Consumer consumers they seek to serve. Although we accept, as Focus currently assists around 7,000 customers directly, my noble friend Lord Whitty admitted, that rationalisation the Citizens Advice service advises and supports millions was necessary in what was becoming a very cluttered of individuals every year. landscape, the Bill does not provide the solution. We The alternative that the noble Baroness raises through wish to hear how the Government think it does. As her second amendment—to include Consumer Focus was evidenced in the contributions to this debate and in Schedule 5 to the Bill—would keep it in existence in Committee, the loss of the NCC or Consumer but create a power to amend or transfer some of its Focus will be felt right across the piece. functions. As she has made clear today, her amendments As my noble friend Lord Borrie reminded us, and question the Government’s overall intent for the future my noble friend Lord Whitty echoed, we still do not role of the Citizens Advice service in research and really know what will happen. Where is the consultation advocacy on behalf of consumers. Therefore, I will say document that was promised in the spring? Spring, as a little more about this. those of you who have been able to go outside today, Questions have been raised, in particular, about the has arrived. Indeed it almost feels like early summer, capacity of the Citizens Advice service to engage at a yet we still do not have that piece of paper. We need to national level with industry sector regulators and have an engaged consultative process because we need government and international bodies. On 5 March, to know where these functions are going. This is Consumer Focus published a paper entitled Regulated important. It is difficult to see what is happening. The Industries and the Consumer, which sets out its view of 789 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 790 these responsibilities and the skills and capabilities the Citizens Advice service and what delivery models needed to address them effectively. The Government might be appropriate in Scotland and Wales, will be take this issue very seriously. The Citizens Advice formally consulted on after the elections in May. service already has a strong track record in policy The intention of the Government in making these advocacy. For example, Citizens Advice has launched proposals is to provide the best possible service for several super-complaints, which have resulted in substantial consumers, to be their champion at a national and improvements for consumers, notably about doorstep international level, and to provide information and selling cooling-off rights and the payment protection advice in ways that suit them best. I therefore hope insurance market. However, we do not claim that the that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her Citizens Advice service currently has all the capabilities amendment. it needs to discharge such responsibilities and I do not believe that the leaders of those organisations would Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town: I first thank my either. noble friends Lord Borrie, Lord Whitty, Lord Beecham It is important here that I make the point that I am and Lord Stevenson, and the noble Baroness, Lady talking about the national umbrella organisations Citizens Oppenheim-Barnes. As a former chair and Consumer Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland, not the individual, Minister, she well understands the work of the locally organised bureaux, which are independent of organisation, as was indicated. I bow to her judgment. these national organisations. Under our proposals, I agree strongly with my noble friend Lord Borrie that funding would follow functions. This will allow the the whole move is still unsatisfactory. However, the Citizens Advice service to acquire the extra skills and point of this amendment is to help, rather than take capabilities that it will need. This will be particularly on the whole of that issue. It is meant to help the to develop further capability in research and to increase Government by moving the NCC to Schedule 5, thereby the depth of its engagement with sectoral regulators increasing the flexibility that is open to them as they and international consumer policy organisations. review the consumer environment. A key issue will be to develop an effective operational As her own department is now finding out, and as model. Citizens Advice and Citizens Advice Scotland my noble friend Lord Beecham has said, the CABs are have unparalleled intelligence about consumer detriment already overwhelmed. My noble friend Lord Hunt from the front line of advice-giving. Their evidence said that in Birmingham all five are at risk, and there base will expand further when they establish a successor is to be a 20 per cent cut in Newcastle. All their to the national Consumer Direct helpline. They will energies will be put into what they do well at the need to bring together this evidence with the national moment. Advising individuals is simply not the same research capability that Consumer Focus currently job as providing cross-market advice on how markets has, as well as its contacts with sectoral regulators and work for consumers. Someone yesterday said to me. “I international consumer organisations. I am pleased like Citizens Advice. They are just like our local post that the respective chief executives of the three office”. As the Minister said, Citizens Advice is indeed organisations are actively working together to make trusted, local and it knows you. However, combining sure that a robust and credible operational model is it with Consumer Focus is rather like putting the post established. There is still considerable time left to work office together with a merchant bank such as Goldman through the detail. Completing the transition to the Sachs. Just because they both do the same thing—handle new arrangements will take until 2013, so we are not money—you do not merge them. Just because Consumer hurrying. Focus and Citizens Advice are interested in consumers, On other aspects of our proposals, I do not wish to you do not merge them. take up your Lordships’ time by repeating what I said However, that is not in the proposal in front of us. I in Committee. However, I reiterate that the Government had expected the review of the consumer landscape to intend to provide sufficient funding for the Citizens be revealed. I am grateful for the information, although Advice service to take on the consumer functions of not the content, which we will not now receive until the Office of Fair Trading, Consumer Focus and possibly after 5 May. However, the Government, in advance of other sectoral consumer bodies. Citizens Advice and announcing their consultation, already wanted to put Citizens Advice Scotland will be accountable to Parliament Consumer Focus into the abolition bucket. That through this public funding, and to their trustees as undermines and misunderstands the work of Consumer independent charities. Focus, which is about consumer input into consumer policy. As my noble friend Lord Whitty said, we risk the loss of the statutory powers if Citizens Advice is Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes: To be given all these unable to take on those powers, and if Consumer powers and functions, and to carry them out well, they Focus remains in Schedule 1. That is a big risk. As my will need not just extra money but a lot of different noble friend Lord Stevenson said, we risk losing advocacy training in the different branches of consumer affairs and representation. that they will have to deal with. The role of Citizens Advice is face-to-face. It is about individual consumers. It is not about national Baroness Wilcox: Indeed, and that is why the policy or taking on British Airways, Virgin, internet consultation has been in-depth, why it is continuing providers or big national organisations that can also now and why the chief executives of the organisations treat consumers poorly.Although I welcome the reference are coming together to make sure that this changes to international and European consumer policy, that over and happens well. These and other issues, such as is quite different from representing individuals in need— whether and how statutory powers are transferred to over money, housing or family problems. 791 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 792

[BARONESS HAYTER OF KENTISH TOWN] Lister of Burtersett, B. Rooker, L. We are talking about a transfer of functions that Low of Dalston, L. Rosser, L. were laid down in the 2007 Act. I fear that the Government McAvoy, L. Rowlands, L. McConnell of Glenscorrodale, want to abolish those functions; otherwise, why are Royall of Blaisdon, B. L. St John of Bletso, L. they putting Consumer Focus in the abolition bucket? McDonagh, B. Sandwich, E. I have heard the words of the Minister, but there is an Macdonald of Tradeston, L. Sawyer, L. overwhelming case for not abolishing Consumer Focus, McFall of Alcluith, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. but for putting it into Schedule 5, under which some McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Sewel, L. MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Sherlock, B. functions could be transferred if the review shows that Mackenzie of Framwellgate, Simon, V. that is the best way forward. I should like to test the L. opinion of the House. McKenzie of Luton, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Mallalieu, B. Smith of Finsbury, L. Mandelson, L. Snape, L. 7.12 pm Massey of Darwen, B. Soley, L. Maxton, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, Division on Amendment 13 Meacher, B. L. Mitchell, L. Stoddart of Swindon, L. Contents 170; Not-Contents 182. Moonie, L. Stone of Blackheath, L. Morgan, L. Symons of Vernham Dean, Morgan of Drefelin, B. B. Amendment 13 disagreed. Morgan of Huyton, B. Taylor of Bolton, B. Morris of Aberavon, L. Thornton, B. Division No. 2 Nye, B. Tomlinson, L. O’Neill of Clackmannan, Touhig, L. CONTENTS L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] Ouseley, L. Turner of Camden, B. Adams of Craigielea, B. Foulkes of Cumnock, L. Parekh, L. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. Ahmed, L. Gale, B. Patel, L. Watson of Invergowrie, L. Anderson of Swansea, L. Giddens, L. Patel of Blackburn, L. Wedderburn of Charlton, L. Andrews, B. Gilbert, L. Pendry, L. Wheeler, B. Archer of Sandwell, L. Glasman, L. Pitkeathley, B. Whitaker, B. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Golding, B. Plant of Highfield, L. Whitty, L. Bach, L. Gordon of Strathblane, Quin, B. Wigley, L. Bakewell, B. L. Radice, L. Wilkins, B. Bassam of Brighton, L. Goudie, B. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. Williams of Elvel, L. [Teller] Gould of Potternewton, B. Reid of Cardowan, L. Williamson of Horton, L. Beecham, L. Grantchester, L. Rendell of Babergh, B. Wills, L. Berkeley, L. Grey-Thompson, B. Richard, L. Woolmer of Leeds, L. Bilston, L. Hall of Birkenhead, L. Blackstone, B. Harris of Haringey, L. NOT CONTENTS Blood, B. Harrison, L. Boateng, L. Hart of Chilton, L. Addington, L. Condon, L. Borrie, L. Haskel, L. Alderdice, L. Cormack, L. Boyd of Duncansby, L. Haworth, L. Alton of Liverpool, L. Cotter, L. Bradley, L. Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Crickhowell, L. Brooke of Alverthorpe, L. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Arran, E. Cumberlege, B. Brookman, L. Henig, B. Ashcroft, L. De Mauley, L. Brooks of Tremorfa, L. Hilton of Eggardon, B. Ashdown of Norton-sub- Dear, L. Browne of Ladyton, L. Hollis of Heigham, B. Hamdon, L. Denham, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Howarth of Newport, L. Astor, V. Dixon-Smith, L. Carter of Coles, L. Howe of Idlicote, B. Astor of Hever, L. Dobbs, L. Clancarty, E. Howie of Troon, L. Attlee, E. Doocey, B. Clark of Windermere, L. Hoyle, L. Barker, B. Dundee, E. Clarke of Hampstead, L. Hughes of Stretford, B. Bates, L. Dykes, L. Clinton-Davis, L. Hughes of Woodside, L. Berridge, B. Eaton, B. Collins of Highbury, L. Hunt of Chesterton, L. Bew, L. Eccles, V. Craigavon, V. Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Black of Brentwood, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Crawley, B. Irvine of Lairg, L. Blencathra, L. Eden of Winton, L. Davies of Coity, L. Jones, L. Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury, Edmiston, L. Davies of Oldham, L. Jones of Whitchurch, B. B. Empey, L. Davies of Stamford, L. Kakkar, L. Boswell of Aynho, L. Falkland, V. Dixon, L. Kennedy of Southwark, L. Bradshaw, L. Faulks, L. Donoughue, L. Kennedy of The Shaws, B. Bridgeman, V. Feldman of Elstree, L. Drake, B. Kerr of Kinlochard, L. Brittan of Spennithorne, Fellowes, L. Dubs, L. King of Bow, B. L. Fellowes of West Stafford, Elder, L. King of West Bromwich, Brougham and Vaux, L. L. Elystan-Morgan, L. L. Browning, B. Fink, L. Evans of Parkside, L. Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Burnett, L. Flight, L. Exeter, Bp. Kirkhill, L. Byford, B. Fookes, B. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Knight of Weymouth, L. Carlile of Berriew, L. Forsyth of Drumlean, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Laming, L. Cathcart, E. Fowler, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Layard, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Framlingham, L. Finlay of Llandaff, B. Lea of Crondall, L. Chadlington, L. Freeman, L. Ford, B. Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Chalker of Wallasey, B. Freud, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, Liddle, L. Chidgey, L. Garden of Frognal, B. L. Lipsey, L. Colwyn, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. 793 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Ecclesiastical Fees Measure 794

Gardner of Parkes, B. Naseby, L. Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure Geddes, L. Neuberger, B. German, L. Neville-Jones, B. Motion to Present for Royal Assent Glendonbrook, L. Newby, L. Glentoran, L. Newlove, B. 7.23 pm Goodlad, L. Northbrook, L. Moved by The Lord Bishop of Exeter Goschen, V. Northover, B. Grade of Yarmouth, L. Norton of Louth, L. That this House do direct that, in accordance Hamilton of Epsom, L. O’Cathain, B. Hamwee, B. with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Harris of Peckham, L. Act 1919, the Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Patten, L. Harris of Richmond, B. Measure be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Henley, L. Perry of Southwark, B. Assent. Heyhoe Flint, B. Popat, L. Higgins, L. Rawlings, B. The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, this is the Reay, L. Hill of Oareford, L. first of three Measures before your Lordships’ House Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, Rennard, L. L. Renton of Mount Harry, this evening. It is the only one that changes existing Home, E. L. law. The Care of Cathedrals Measure and the Mission Howard of Lympne, L. Ritchie of Brompton, B. and Pastoral Measure are consolidation Measures. Howard of Rising, L. Roberts of Conwy, L. Earlier this afternoon we heard a reference from the Howe, E. Roberts of Llandudno, L. Howell of Guildford, L. Rogan, L. Dispatch Box to the writings of PG Woodhouse. I was Hunt of Wirral, L. Sassoon, L. minded of that great chronicler of cathedrals and of Hussain, L. Scott of Needham Market, clergy life, Anthony Trollope, who once wrote that a Hussein-Ece, B. B. lawyer, James of Blackheath, L. Seccombe, B. “can find it consistent with his dignity to turn wrong into right, James of Holland Park, B. Selborne, E. and right into wrong, to abet a lie, nay to create, disseminate, and Jenkin of Kennington, B. Selkirk of Douglas, L. with all the play of his wit, give strength to the basest of lies, on Jenkin of Roding, L. Selsdon, L. behalf of the basest of scoundrels”. Jolly, B. Shackleton of Belgravia, B. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Shaw of Northstead, L. I am sure that that does not apply to any noble and Jopling, L. Sheikh, L. learned Lords in this House. Those who have laboured Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Shipley, L. on these three Measures—lawyers among them—have Knight of Collingtree, B. Shrewsbury, E. had quite the opposite intent. The Measures are about Kramer, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] clarification, consistency and transparency. It may be Laird, L. Skelmersdale, L. Lee of Trafford, L. Smith of Clifton, L. convenient for your Lordships if I speak to all three of Lexden, L. Spicer, L. them now. Lingfield, L. Stedman-Scott, B. The Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure amends Liverpool, E. Steel of Aikwood, L. the Ecclesiastical Fees Measure 1986. It is concerned Lyell, L. Stowell of Beeston, B. MacGregor of Pulham Strathclyde, L. with two matters. The first is parochial fees that are Market, L. Taverne, L. payable in connection with the occasional offices of Mackay of Clashfern, L. Taylor of Holbeach, L. the church, principally weddings and funerals. The MacLaurin of Knebworth, Tebbit, L. second is fees that are payable to the ecclesiastical L. Teverson, L. judges and the church’s legal officers—chancellors, McNally, L. Tugendhat, L. diocesan registrars and others—for carrying out their Maddock, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. Magan of Castletown, L. Verma, B. official duties. I will deal first with parochial fees. A Mancroft, L. Waddington, L. quarter of a century’s experience has shown that there Maples, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. are aspects of the current legislation that do not well Mar, C. Wallace of Tankerness, L. serve either the church or those to whom it offers its Marland, L. Walmsley, B. parochial ministry—which means, in principle, every Marlesford, L. Walpole, L. Mawhinney, L. Warsi, B. person in England. The 1986 Measure contains a Mayhew of Twysden, L. Wasserman, L. definition of “parochial fees” that has proved to be Montrose, D. Wei, L. rather obscure. The General Synod’s Legal Advisory Moore of Lower Marsh, L. Wheatcroft, B. Commission found it difficult to say with certainty Morris of Bolton, B. Wilcox, B. precisely what the current definition covered, particularly Moynihan, L. Younger of Leckie, V. in the case of crematorium funerals, which are now very common. The commission advised that the definition Amendments 14 and 15 should be amended to make it clear which matters were covered by parochial fees. Moved by Lord Taylor of Holbeach The Measure before your Lordships’ House does 14: Schedule 1, page 16, line 7, at end insert— that. The duties that give rise to the payment of fees “Plant Varieties and Seeds Tribunal.” are itemised in a schedule. They include marriages, 15: Schedule 1, page 16, line 11, at end insert “other than the which have always been the subject of parochial fees. one established pursuant to subsection (5) of that section Also itemised are the different types of funeral that (Wales)” take place nowadays, not just those that take place in church. The opportunity has also been taken to include Amendments 14 and 15 agreed. some of the newer occasional offices for which the Church of England service books now make provision, Consideration on Report adjourned until not before including services of prayer and thanksgiving after 8.25 pm. civil marriage. This should mean that people who wish 795 Ecclesiastical Fees Measure[LORDS] Ecclesiastical Fees Measure 796

[THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER] Possibly contrary to public perception, parochial to have such a service will know from the statutory fees no longer benefit the incumbent directly—it is a table of fees exactly what they will be expected to pay, long time now since that was the case. In providing for by contrast with the uncertainties of the current what used to be the incumbent’s fees to be payable to arrangements for these services, with fees varying from the diocesan board of finance, the Measure simply place to place. puts current practice on a proper statutory footing. The Measure provides a power, subject to synodical This change, which reflects the reality of the situation, and parliamentary control, to amend the itemised list is in the interests of transparency and will provide by order should that prove necessary in future. A legal clarity as to the ownership of the fees. certain amount of flexibility has therefore been built I now turn to the second aspect— in to the new legislative framework. Parochial fees orders will continue to be made by the Archbishops’ Lord Cormack: I am most grateful to the right Council, subject to the approval of the General Synod, reverend Prelate for giving way. He has not mentioned and will continue to be laid as statutory instruments the position of non-stipendiary priests, who frequently before both Houses of Parliament under the negative take funerals and marriages and so on. Many parishes, procedure. The existing practice has been for orders to such as my own, have a non-stipendiary in charge of be made annually so that the fees can be adjusted to them. Can he clarify the situation? I believe that it was keep up with inflation. The new Measure provides a made clear during the Ecclesiastical Committee’s useful facility to enable orders to be made for up to deliberations that they will be paid directly as they are five years at a time, with inbuilt increases in the not receiving a stipend. prescribed fees. The Lord Bishop of Exeter: I am very grateful to the Another useful facility provided by the Measure is noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for raising that important a power to specify the costs and expenses that are to be point for clarification. This Measure will aid the process included in the statutory fees. Under the existing statutory because diocesan boards of finance will now be framework, there is considerable variation between encouraged to have a policy. That will mean that not parishes on services that are charged as extras over only self-supporting ordained ministers but, for example, and above the statutory fees. This can lead to the readers, who in certain rural areas in my diocese take a unsatisfactory situation, for example, where people considerable number of funerals, will have provision who are getting married are surprised to be asked for made for their remuneration. Therefore, again, this is substantial sums for administration, vergers’ fees and a useful outcome of tidying up the procedures. so on, in addition to the published statutory fees, a situation which a nationally applicable table of parochial I turn to the second aspect of the Measure—the fees was always intended to avoid. changes relating to ecclesiastical judges’ and legal officers’ fees. Fees are payable to diocesan chancellors There are, of course, always some genuinely optional in respect of their judicial work—principally the exercise extras that people will ask for, such as professional of the faculty jurisdiction in respect of church buildings music and flowers. It is not proposed that these should and their contents. They are also payable to diocesan be included in the fees that will be prescribed in the registrars for the wide range of legal work that they parochial fees order. However, it is envisaged that in undertake for the bishop and other officials and bodies future fees orders will specify as included in the statutory in the life of the diocese. These fees are prescribed fee certain costs and expenses that are necessarily annually in fees orders that are ultimately laid before incurred in making the church available for the service. both Houses of Parliament as statutory instruments. As with parochial fees orders generally, the exercise of These fees orders are made by a specially constituted the power will be subject to the scrutiny of the General statutory body—the Fees Advisory Commission. Synod and of both Houses of Parliament. Under existing statutory provisions, the commission The other main change that the Measure will bring is constituted in such a way that half its membership about, while legally significant, is essentially a matter consists of lawyers. The current balance was considered of tidying up. Under the current statutory framework, by the commission to be not entirely satisfactory. parochial fees are divided into two categories: fees Following a review of its constitution and functions, payable to the incumbent and fees payable to the two specific changes were proposed, and these are parochial church council. Under the Measure, fees provided for in the Measure that is now before your continue to be payable to parochial church councils Lordships’ House. but the incumbent’s fee is replaced by a fee payable to The first of these changes is the reconstitution of the diocesan board of finance. This is not nearly as the Fees Advisory Commission so that its membership significant a change as it might seem. In practice, more consists of three elements: the users of the legal services, than 90 per cent of incumbents assign their parochial in the form of a bishop, a Church Commissioner and fees by deed to the diocesan board of finance when a chairman of the diocesan board of finance; the they are appointed. They are then paid the full diocesan providers of legal services, represented by a chancellor, stipend. The small number of incumbents who do not a provincial registrar and a diocesan registrar; and an assign their fees to the diocese in this way nevertheless independent element in the form of persons appointed declare their fee income to the diocese by sending in by the Church of England’s Appointments Committee. regular returns. Their stipends are then reduced A minor change is also made to the commission’s accordingly. No one currently not assigning fees will functions. It will be required to keep itself informed of be obliged to do so; there is a provision for them to opt the duties of the judges and legal officers who receive out if they so wish. the fees that the commission prescribes. This is intended 797 Ecclesiastical Fees Measure[23 MARCH 2011] Ecclesiastical Fees Measure 798 to ensure that in arriving at levels of fees, the commission various papers that have been produced for our debate does so on a properly informed basis. tonight, it is noticeable that some of the arguments As the material contained in the report of the were put forward to the Revision Committee—particularly, Ecclesiastical Committee shows, the Ecclesiastical Fees first, that the Measure breaches the right in general (Amendment) Measure received detailed and thorough law of any person to enter into a contract to carry out scrutiny during its passage through the Synod, both in services and to receive payment, and, secondly, that it committee and at the revision stage in full Synod. It possibly breaches human rights. However, the advice received overwhelming majorities in all three houses received by the Revision Committee looked pretty of the General Synod at final approval. The Ecclesiastical persuasive to me. As I said, I also noted that many Committee is of the opinion that the Measure is other points were put to the Revision Committee, and expedient and I am pleased to commend it to your they appear to have been considered very carefully. Lordships’ House. Overall, I am very much persuaded that these Measures I shall not need to detain your Lordships long on should be supported by your Lordships’ House. the other two Measures. As I mentioned, they are both I also noted from the deliberation that took place consolidation Measures. They do not change the law; on 30 November that, in an answer to my noble friend they simply consolidate in single Measures all the Lord Bilston, we were reassured that payments to enactments relating to particular subjects. Perhaps I choirs, bellringers, organists, florists and suchlike are might add that this is something that Parliament itself not covered by the statutory fees. My noble friend might consider doing with secular legislation. reminded noble Lords that he led a strike nearly The Care of Cathedrals Measure consolidates the 60 years ago, when he wanted to increase the stipend—I Care of Cathedrals Measure 1990, which made provision assume this was as a choirboy—from a shilling to two for the care and conservation of cathedrals, and a shillings: number of subsequent enactments that either added “We had a very recalcitrant clergyman who wouldn’t concede that point. I thought it was quite a legitimate increase. So we had to its provisions or amended it. The Mission and to go and sit on the church wall for an hour during the month of Pastoral Measure consolidates the Pastoral Measure March—as you know, the tax issues were very relevant then. I led 1983—itself a consolidation of a number of enactments the choir out to sit on the wall for an hour before the next that were “designed to make better provision for the marriage. We are talking about marriages or funerals. After the cure of souls”—together with a long list of subsequent hour, the vicar came out and offered us the two shillings and we enactments that have amended it in various ways. In went back and sang with gusto”. fact, consolidation of the Pastoral Measure was first It is a remarkable read and it pays testament to the suggested by the chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee, thoroughness with which both the Synod and the the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, Ecclesiastical Committee have gone through these matters. who has asked me to say how sorry he is not to be in I am sure that we should support them. his place this evening. If I may respectfully say so, that was a most helpful suggestion and it is one that we Lord Cormack: My Lords, I will speak briefly. I was have been pleased to adopt. We saw the benefit of delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, quoted doing the same with the care of cathedrals legislation. Lord Bilston. It made me feel very nostalgic for the I therefore also commend these Measures to your Ecclesiastical Committee, on which I served for 40 years— Lordships’ House. I beg to move. probably a record. I also served on the General Synod for 10 years. I am bound to say that not every piece of Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we are legislation sent by General Synod to your Lordships’ debating three ecclesiastical Measures tonight and I House and the other place had my warm approval. It am most grateful to the right reverend Prelate the is incredibly important, as we have an established Bishop of Exeter for his very clear explanation. The church, that both your Lordships’ House and the Ecclesiastical Committee has considered these matters other place have a proper opportunity to debate the and is of the view that they are expedient. It is noticeable Measures that come before us. I am very glad to see that in the General Synod there was unanimous support that the noble Lord is nodding so vigorously in assent. for the Care of Cathedrals Measure. There was also I am very proud of the fact that we have an established almost unanimous support for the Mission and Pastoral church. Of course, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop Measure. In relation to those two Measures, such of Exeter made the point—very gently—in his extremely support is clearly significant. With the Ecclesiastical cogent and clear speech, that every single person in Fees (Amendment) Measure, it is noticeable that in England is entitled to the ministrations and services of Synod the votes in the House of Clergy were 99 for the the Church of England. That is something which ayes and 10 for the noes, and, in the House of Laity, people of all faiths and none frequently have cause to 115 for the ayes and nine for the noes, so there was be truly thankful for. It is important, therefore, that we clearly a moderate measure of disagreement. Perhaps should be debating these things. the right reverend Prelate would be prepared to comment I would make two very brief points. The first expands on the debate and on the reasons why some members on what I said in my intervention. The Church of of the Synod opposed the Measure. England, particularly in rural areas, is becoming I have of course taken note that in its 229th report increasingly dependent upon the services of non- the Ecclesiastical Committee is very clear on these stipendiary ministers and of lay people. There is something Measures, as was the right reverend Prelate. The committee good about that, but there is also something that the points out the defects in the current legislation and the church needs to devote very real and constructive recommendation of the Deployment, Remuneration attention to; the business of the retirement age of and Conditions of Service Committee. Reading the clergy. There are many clergy over the age of 70 who 799 Ecclesiastical Fees Measure[LORDS] Ecclesiastical Fees Measure 800

[LORD CORMACK] Lord Lea of Crondall: My Lords, I associate myself wish to carry on but who are not able to do so. I do not with the words of the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. We want to embarrass someone by mentioning him by have had many opportunities in different capacities—in name; I have not had a chance to consult him. But the arts and heritage group, once chaired by the noble very recently, an extremely popular vicar in a very Lord, through to many other hats that we wear—to major Lincolnshire parish—my home county, as distinct see the increased pressure on cathedrals, with York, from my county by adoption, Staffordshire—did not Canterbury and so on having bits literally falling off. wish to retire. He was in full and vigorous health—after One wag asked why we do not have the tower sponsored all there are many in your Lordships’ House, including by Burger King. More seriously, the Church of England me, who are over the age of 70 and still play, one does not want to go in the direction of a state fabric hopes, a constructive part in the affairs of the nation. authority as in France. There are very many reasons This vicar did not wish to retire. His parishioners were why France and Britain do not have the same history, distraught at the thought of his retiring. Yet he had no but in this connection it might be a marker for the alternative. It is a pity when we have a rigid retirement future; the situation is increasingly unstable. With age. Of course, if people want to go beforehand, fair 14 cathedrals knocking simultaneously at the door of enough. But we are increasingly dependent on those every merchant banker in the country, we might ask who have retired and then give their services, particularly whether or not it is proper for HMG to be more in rural areas. Without them the Church of England forthcoming about its public policy assessment of the would not be able to give the ministration it does to scenarios for the future. I do not know what toes I am the people of this country. I hope it is something that treading on in saying that, but these questions have will be borne in mind in future deliberations of General very wide ramifications. Synod and of the Archbishops’ Council, et cetera. The second point I want to make very briefly is on Lord Laming: My Lords, I also thank the right the cathedrals Measure. The right reverend Prelate the reverend Prelate the Bishop of Exeter for so expertly Bishop of Exeter did not really deal in any detail with setting out the contents of these three Measures. The this. He merely said it was a consolidation Measure, Measures referring to the care of cathedrals and the which it truly is—a very good one at that. I warmly ecclesiastical fees might well be described as tidying-up commend it. It gives us an opportunity to reflect upon pieces of legislation, but that in no way should detract the centrality of the cathedral in every diocese; the fact form their importance. The way in which these items, that our cathedrals—particularly our great medieval which are most timely, have been handled—not only cathedrals—are among the greatest, if not the greatest, through Synod, which has been extremely thorough buildings in this country. Who could imagine Ely and careful over its deliberations, but also, if I may without its cathedral; Lincoln or Durham without say, through the Ecclesiastical Committee—gives me their cathedrals; Salisbury without its cathedral? Exeter? confidence to commend these three Measures to the One could go on. House.

7.45 pm Lord Newby: I begin by associating myself with the Baroness O’Cathain: Chichester. remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Laming, about the immense amount of work that has been done to get the Measures tabled, and congratulate the right reverend Lord Cormack: Chichester, indeed—a good interjection. Prelate on his introduction of them. In the 19th century its spire blew down, as I remember, The Measures do not deal with the level of fees. and that underlines the vulnerability of any great but They state how they are to be set—there is a great old and fragile building. The church does shoulder—very infrastructure for that—but there is a big issue about willingly, I am glad to say—the burden of sustaining how we should set the fee. When I raised that question these extremely wonderful buildings, but there is a in the Ecclesiastical Committee, the response was that, national responsibility beyond that. at the moment, if anyone asked the church to justify My very first parliamentary exercise was to introduce the figures in terms of actual costs, it would be hard the Historic Churches Preservation Bill way back in put to do so. An attempt was to be made to work up a 1971 in the other place. From that we got state aid for realistic estimate of the cost of providing authorised churches, and later we got state aid for cathedrals. ministry buildings, and so forth. Without the money that has come more latterly through If I may say so, that will require the judgment of English Heritage, our cathedrals would have been in a Solomon. First, the amount of authorised ministry—I much more parlous state than they are, notwithstanding declare an interest as a clergy spouse—varies so the dedicated service that those who minister within enormously from case to case. Certainly with funerals, them give. We ought to register in this brief debate the amount of time that can be taken where there has that no country deserves to call itself civilised if it been a tragic death in the family is phenomenal, and is neglects its greatest architectural glories. one of the most important things that the clergy do. It is good that in this consolidation Measure the That is extremely difficult. church is tidying up its own approach, making it more I also hope that, without wanting to ramp the fees cohesive and coherent—I warmly commend that—but up, the committee or sub-committee that looks into it there is also a continuing obligation upon us to ensure will not just look at the marginal costs. Going back to that the nation outside the Church of England plays the point about cathedrals, you cannot have a wedding its part in ensuring that these great marvels of ecclesiastical in a church unless the church has been kept up for the architecture can be enjoyed by future generations. years before the wedding. Simply charging for so 801 Ecclesiastical Fees Measure[23 MARCH 2011] Ecclesiastical Fees Measure 802 many hours of the clergywoman’s time plus a bit of encourage more. Housing is also a crying need, particularly heating costs and whatever does not get to the bottom in rural areas. I was talking to people in the Ministry of the real value. of Justice last week, who mentioned the 80 per cent of I also had a slightly mischievous thought when the prisoners who come out not having anywhere to stay. right reverend Prelate was talking about a national That would seem to be very much within the mission—not table of fees. Some churches are extremely sought the mission set out in the Measure, but the mission after, particularly for weddings. It is not because the as originally espoused, which was to look after the population of the parish is particularly devout. It prisoners and the homeless, to feed the hungry and to occurred to me that without necessarily adopting the clothe people. Ryanair approach to pricing for churches, there is a I am simply saying that there seem to be lots of different quality between a wedding conducted in a opportunities, particularly in the age of the big society, country church in July and in an inner-city church in for those marvellous facilities in the centre of communities January. I wonder whether it might be possible to to be used much more than they are. I would be contemplate seasonal variation. grateful to know what consideration has been given to that in the preparation of the Measures. Lord Cormack: What if it rains on the day?

Lord Newby: We might need to have a rebate in the The Lord Bishop of Exeter: My Lords, I am very event of rain. Some people get married in a particular grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken in response kind of church at a particular time of year purely to the debate. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings because they are paying for a better facility. In these Heath, asked about the Synod debate and was speculating harsh economic times, the church ought at least to on the reason why people might have voted against. It explore that possibility. is perhaps worth saying that Synod is a large body of 470 members, but we have no Whips. I speculate, but it Lord Bates: Having read the Measures, I was intrigued may well be that a few wish to register regret at what particularly by Parts 6 and 7 and wanted to question a could be seen as the final logical stage in a long little further. My prompt for asking this question was process stretching back over many decades. That would a walk on Saturday through my home town of Gateshead. not be unknown in your Lordships’ House. I walked past about six different church buildings with my father. As we were walking, we were estimating the In the Ecclesiastical Committee, Peter Bottomley congregations in each of those six different church asked: buildings, which happened to include two Anglican, a “Is there a way of indicating gently whether those opposed, not convinced or not agreeing were what you might call modernists, Baptist, a Salvation Army and a Methodist church. traditionalists or individualists?”. We estimated that the congregations in the six buildings To which Mr Tim Allen replied: were in the region of 150 or 200 for all of them. “From the choice of those three, probably the best answer is As this is a consolidation measure, which deals in individualists”. Part 6 with the use of places of worship, one wonders I also say to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, that when he about underutilisation of church buildings and how has a little spare time from the Front Benches over that could be addressed. When he comes to respond to there, he would make a very good shop steward for this short debate, perhaps the right reverend Prelate choristers. can comment on what consideration is given to better I am very grateful for the reminder of the noble use of existing buildings, because there are a lot of Lord, Lord Cormack, that the church is the church of opportunities there. the English people. Our word parish comes from two That links with Part 7, which has some excellent Greek words, language which talks about local ecumenical partnerships παρα and οικος. working with different denominations in pursuit of, in that quaint phrase, the cure of souls, in the local area. It means “the dwellers alongside”. I relate back to That provision within the mission in Part 7, if replicated what the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said, about our in the building regulations in Part 6, could lead to churches. Some churches may have small congregations some interesting collaborations which would be for but we are not congregational churches, we are parish the benefit of communities. There are now many ways churches. Already, the provisions of Section 6 are in which those buildings could be used. They could be unable in many churches to be used much more creatively used for schools, going back to their original purpose. than they have in the past. Certainly, if you go back Why could not the church building be used for them? into the long distant past, they have been used for a They could be used for housing. whole variety of things—schoolrooms, yes, although I Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: Is the noble Lord aware am not going to be tempted into a debate about that 40 per cent of all free schools are religious schools? schools—but other functions as well. Particularly in Does he agree that in fact there is considerable concern rural areas, but I could also take you to churches in about the nature of those schools—not, of course, the urban Plymouth, churches are now used seven days a Church of England schools? I wonder whether he is week in the service of the community, which is precisely right to encourage more free schools. I am not sure what the parish church exists to do. that that gets the balance right. The noble Lord, Lord Cormack, reminded me that he has spent four years checking ecclesiastical legislation Lord Bates: Faith schools have an outstanding record. and declaring it expedient. So when I am in one of my The churches were in education long before the grumpy old man moods, worrying about the pace of Government ever got into the business. I would like to change, I now know who to blame. 803 Ecclesiastical Fees Measure[LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 804

[THE LORD BISHOP OF EXETER] Mission and Pastoral Measure I am also grateful to the noble Lord for pointing to the centrality of cathedrals in the life of the diocese, Motion to Present for Royal Assent and the importance of us shouldering together the Moved by The Lord Bishop of Exeter responsibility for maintaining these wonderful buildings. I say again that our church buildings are probably 8.02 pm better maintained now than they ever have been. It is a That this House do direct that, in accordance with huge tribute to those who worship within them, but the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, also to the wider community. My own cathedral church the Mission and Pastoral Measure be presented to Her is two-thirds of the way through raising £9 million. Majesty for the Royal Assent. Much of that has been raised by the people of the Motion agreed. wider community of Devon. We look to the support that we receive from agencies of the state, or associated 8.03 pm with the state. I pay tribute to the work of English Sitting suspended. Heritage. A lot of us are hugely grateful for the continuation, albeit in a more limited way, of the listed places of worship grants scheme, which is a real help Public Bodies Bill [HL] to many parish churches. I am grateful for those, and Report (1st Day) (Continued) to the noble Lords, Lord Lea and Lord Laming, for making those same points. 8.25 pm I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Newby, for that recognition of the huge amount of work that goes Amendment 16 into providing pastoral ministry and how it varies Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark from place to place. It has never been the intention 16: Schedule 1, page 16, line 12, leave out “Regional development that a parochial fee should be set to realistically cover agency for the East Midlands.” all those costs—including the dilapidation costs of the building, if you want to call them that. It is intended Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I am still that it should be fair and affordable, and should not surprised as to why the Government are seeking to place any of these occasional offices beyond the reach move forward with local enterprise partnerships, leaving of those who need them. The noble Lord tempts me nothing at all at the regional level. I have been hoping into some interesting byways, with his suggestions of for some time that there would be a measure of movement seasonal variations and perhaps a hire fee for a service on the part of the Government, and I hope to hear taken by a bishop and a lower one for a service taken about that from the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach. by a Lord Spiritual. I will not be tempted on that. The East Midlands Development Agency, better The only thing that I have not touched upon is the known as EMDA, was formed in 1999 and for the past retirement age of clergy. As someone who could retire 12 years has done a good job providing help and this summer, and will be forced to retire in five years’ support to the economy of the East Midlands. It time, I am quite tempted to respond personally to works regionally and sub-regionally where that is that. The retirement age is at present prescribed by appropriate, so it is disappointing that the Government statute as 70, although bishops have discretion to are seeking to abolish this RDA. I am not against allow incumbents to remain for up to two years. reform per se, but it seems a bit over the top and Indeed, archbishops can exercise discretion in relation creates a system that is unable to meet the needs of to bishops, but only for up to one year. The church will businesses and meet the regional challenges to create consider that in the future, in the light of the raising of jobs and support the regional economy. the retirement age generally, but change will require an Noble Lords will be aware that the East Midlands amending Measure. It may be that your Lordships, is made up of six counties. It is the third largest and having already heard me speak seven times this week, third most rural region in England, and has a population would like to keep the present retirement age enforcement. of 4.3 million people. There are well over a quarter of I commend the Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure a million businesses in the region, and it is where I to the House. worked for many years. It is made up of largely rural counties with principal town and cities. I should say Motion agreed. that I have great affection for the East Midlands. Compared with other parts of the United Kingdom, it is a region of relatively low wages and needs a measure Care of Cathedrals Measure of co-ordination and intervention at this level to protect Motion to Present for Royal Assent jobs, boost job creation and enable businesses to flourish with the right sort of support. I am aware that other 8.02 pm noble Lords who wish to speak in the debate will refer Moved by The Lord Bishop of Exeter to the RDAs in their own areas, but I think that a recurring theme will be that at the regional level, this is That this House do direct that, in accordance a big mistake. Local enterprise partnerships on their with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) own will not fill the gap. I beg to move. Act 1919, the Care of Cathedrals Measure be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 16A tabled in my name and in Motion agreed. the names of several of my noble friends. Like my 805 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 806 noble friend Lord Kennedy, I am not against reform—I But what happens to the money if the assets are sold? welcome it—but I am against the abolition of the The noble Lord told me what is going to happen RDAs in a wholesale way. I raised a number of questions vis-à-vis inward investment and UK Trade and Investment, on the abolition of the RDAs in our debate at the which intends to procure a single national contract to Committee stage and the Minister was kind enough to co-ordinate and manage foreign investment propositions write to me with a detailed response. I have to say at on behalf of the UK. That may be very good; I am not the outset that I still have very deep concerns about in a position to say. But the role that the RDAs played the abolition of the RDAs, both in terms of the in inward investment as one-stop shops was truly impact on economic growth and the process itself. invaluable and I should like reassurance from the I turn first to the Government’s response to the Minister that there will be that sort of one-stop-shop report of the Public Administration Select Committee process in any new system. That was instrumental in entitled Smaller Government: Shrinking the Quango bringing industry and jobs to regions such as the State. The response is brimful of bravado, which I north-west, the West Midlands and many others. The would say is misplaced in this context, but I digress. I regions must be the motors for economic growth in refer to paragraph 6 of the response, which deals with our country. I am sure that the Minister will remind the £2.6 billion that will flow from savings on public me that the policy of the Government is to have local bodies over the spending review period and the estimate economic partnerships, and indeed his right honourable of a reduction of at least £11 billion per year by friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced 2014-15. It has been estimated in some quarters that it 11 new LEPs today. But I am still concerned that great could cost as much as £1.4 billion to wind down the swathes of the country will still not be covered, that RDAs and complete existing programmes. Yet in his not enough money will be available to support the letter, the Minister tells me that it is not possible at this LEPs, and that not enough attention will be given to stage to quantify the costs of RDA closure. I am sure strategic growth. he is correct, but if so, how can the Government state I refer again to the letter from the Minister. He said: categorically that total savings as a result of this “We appreciate the work they”— legislation will be at least £2.6 billion during the the RDAs— spending review period? It would be helpful to have a “have done, but these are difficult times and we need to be clear more detailed breakdown of the savings, especially that our limited resources have to be used in the most efficient after the extraordinary hyperbole we heard at the manner. This requires a total reform of the current system”. beginning of the process—not, I hasten to add, from We all recognise that not all RDAs are as effective as the Minister. they might be but that should not require the demolition I turn now to the issue of consultation, which I of the whole system. On all sides of the Chamber raised in Committee. I welcome the increased consultation there is clear recognition, for example, that the RDA that is now a part of the Bill thus far, although my in the north-east does a splendid job and has made a noble friend Lord Hunt will move further amendments huge contribution to the economy and, consequently, on consultation in due course. But in relation to to the fabric of society in the north-east. So why get RDAs, the Minister told me in his letter that: rid of it? Like my noble friends, I continue to oppose “We have not so far undertaken a formal consultation on the the abolition of RDAs. I believe that innovation, abolition of the RDAs”. employment, inward investment, new business, training I hope that as a consequence of this Bill consultation and economic growth will all suffer, notwithstanding will in future take place at the appropriate time—before the creation of the LEPs and the additional LEPs announcements are made and legislation is introduced. which were announced today. Our economy and our I note from the Minister’s letter that the Government society will suffer as a result. are obliged to consult before laying any order to abolish the RDAs, assuming that they remain part of Lord Campbell-Savours: My Lords, in Committee I the Bill, and that they will meet this requirement. dealt with the historical debate in the Labour movement Personally, I think that such a consultation is far too and the very significant contribution made by my late in the process. I also asked in Committee about noble friend Lord Prescott and by Bruce Millan as a the role of government offices. The Minister told me European Commissioner. I want to concentrate today that BIS is working to put in place a new economic on the future. I declare an interest in that my daughter- development delivery landscape and that this is the in-law works for Yorkshire First. However, my thoughts role that the network of small BIS local teams will be and comments are based on conversations with people designed to fulfil. This is reinventing the wheel. In the in the north-west region and within the Northwest main, the government offices do an excellent job at the Regional Development Agency, which covered my moment. They may well need reforming but reform former constituency following the creation of the agency should not mean abolition; it should mean just some in 1997. readjustment of the process which we have had thus My only interest in this issue is whether the new far. structures can deliver. I say that in the context of having spent almost 40 years of my life living in a 8.30 pm region, or a sub-region, of the United Kingdom where In relation to assets, I have one further question for historically there has been heavy unemployment. Delivery the Minister. In his letter he said that the reasons for has been of primary concern to the Institute of Directors, getting rid of RDA assets include, which supports change but in its recent briefings has “maximising value for money from these assets, ensuring liabilities questioned whether LEPs have the resources, the focus follow assets, and passing control down to the local level where and expertise to be able to deliver. In one of its most possible”. recent briefings, it states on resources that, 807 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 808

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] politicised and unprofessional. We learn from history “concerns remain that without any central government funding at in places such as Cumbria, where I have spent most of all, LEPs may quickly become ineffective talking shops. Government my life, that LEPs—and, I suppose, the West Cumbria will need to allow a small amount of funding as catalysing capital Development Agency, which had all the characteristics for private sector investment as well as setting out how LEPs will be able to fund the small economic secretariats that will be needed of an embryo LEP—can work and be successful. to serve the bodies and their directors … some provision of funds However, it had the nuclear industry in the background. will have to be considered in order to provide: (a) basic administration The problem is that only too often you end up with and secretariat functions … and; (b) economic advice resources, overlapping provision, inter-authority conflict and such as economists and infrastructure expertise”. jealousies. It is a recipe for turning off the big players In other words, it says that, starved of resources, the in a big way, and we will suffer potentially unless we LEPs will be in difficulty. can sort out that problem. On expertise and the ability of the LEPs to focus, I find it extraordinary that we are all turning our the IoD states that, back on the experience of regions throughout the “there remain notable concerns that the proposals submitted to European Union, which are doing precisely the reverse government by many bidding local authorities already suggest a by developing and maintaining their regional structures wide array of duties, from business support and inward investment as they compete for intra-Community infrastructural to skills development and social regeneration. In many cases, the funds and inward investment. They will obviously bids submitted resemble mini-RDA submissions, with all the place far more emphasis on regional GDP figures than potential for additional cost, loss of focus … Many of the plans submitted to government in the form of LEP proposals looked will be the case in the United Kingdom. Our Government and felt like wholesale plagiarism of RDA regional plans and will no doubt concentrate on pushing national GDP activities”. as the measure of success so as to appease domestic We need a far narrower focus. How can an organisation concerns, thereby avoiding a more realistic focus on in the form of an LEP, with minimal resources, possibly possible declines in regional GDP, which is what really cover a wide-ranging brief which includes transport, matters. This is important because the RDAs have planning, infrastructure, housing delivery, development made a considerable contribution to the increase in of growth hubs, local business regulation, skills in regional GDP over all these years. conjunction with Jobcentre Plus, leverage of funding I find myself asking simple questions. Will efforts from the private sector, development of financial entities to secure regional funding from the European Union’s for renewable energy projects and digital infrastructural various regional and sectional assistance pots be as projects? Some LEPs are talking in terms of inward vigorously pursued when they may become more investment initiatives, joint exhibition stands overseas dependent on Whitehall initiatives? We again cannot and the organisation of European funding. In my be sure. I note the assurances in the letter of the noble view, they simply cannot do all that work with the Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, but will the centre be resources that they have available and without the as effective in driving the innovation agenda and the necessary expertise. They need far greater focus. links with the universities? What about the handling of What I find really worrying is that the close relationship green and environmental infrastructural projects such between larger regional employers and the regional as barrages, environmental parks and large-scale structures is now in jeopardy, yet it is those links which environmental clean-ups? These are often driven at a more often than not have been the source of inward local level, but it is only with regional intervention that investment leads. Experience among agencies in the they seem to take off. north shows that most of the foreign investment projects For example, in my former constituency there is a that came to the regions came through regional-partner beautiful site for a potential large regional project—the contacts and not through the centre; that is, Whitehall. RNAD dump at Broughton Moor. There had been Many global players will simply not play ball with some pollution on the site from munitions in storage some of the more inexperienced LEPs, which they after the Second World War. I managed to negotiate believe will lack the muscle to open the doors necessary with Lewis Moonie—now the noble Lord, Lord to facilitate inward investment. Moonie—who was then a Defence Minister, for the I accept that some LEPs will seek to be dynamic local authority to take over that site for the sum of £1, and ambitious, but a lot will not. Cash-starved LEPs which would compensate for the considerable funds will simply not attract the staff. In some areas of the that would have to be invested in environmental clean-up. country, regional policy and strategy will simply wither Eleven years later almost nothing has happened. on the vine. I find it difficult to accept that a few BIS There have been lots of false starts, and even today reps, genuinely committed to the regions as they may proposals for the site are still under consideration. well be, along with the proposed UKTI-nominated What went wrong? The councils own the site. The single national contractor, will be able to maintain the Northwest Regional Development Agency had offered contacts that the RDAs have so painstakingly built up millions for its development as long as the councils over the years. The task requires more than a few well could firmly establish the future development of the motivated and talented individuals from the centre, site for housing, leisure or something substantial. subject to Civil Service rotation, if regional strategies The council simply did not have the drive to pull the are to work, particularly in periods of recession. project together. In my view, if the Northwest Regional The idea that local authority-driven LEPs can provide Development Agency had owned that site and had the levels of service required is questionable. Furthermore, been responsible for its development, things would it is my experience that large employers often steer have been very different. With its funding, experience, clear of local authorities as they are often seen as too contacts and drive, we would have been well on the 809 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 810 way to a visionary use of one of Cumbria’s most These sites are often complicated by title rights, rights important potential development sites. With the wind-up to the reclaim of grant clawback. The lawyers are of the RDAs the writing is on the wall for these types going to have a field day on those issues. There are of projects, and that worries me. some Northwest Regional Development Agency-owned What about the future of RDA work in the film sites where the agency funds the revenue costs. What and creative industries? I cannot see the LEPs getting happens if the LEPs, councils or successor bodies their heads around project work in those sectors. Do simply want rid of the liabilities against the wishes of we have confidence in the arrangements for business the local communities? advice to SMEs? Do we believe that a national website, Then there are the liabilities that arise in respect of along with back-up from cash-starved, local authority- CPO activities by the agency, such as the Ancoats funded LEPs, can deliver business support services on development in Manchester and Kingsway in Rochdale. the scale required in a downturn? I am not altogether clear on the position, but these On the treatment of assets and liabilities, we were could carry substantial liabilities. We need to know told in Committee that there would not be a fire how they are going to be sorted out. What about lease sale—but will there? In his letter, the noble Lord, Lord liabilities on properties currently leased to the Northwest Taylor of Holbeach, said: Regional Development Agency for its own operational “RDA asset disposal plans have been developed taking account activities? Many of these properties do not include of the principles set out at high level in the Local Growth White break clauses. Perhaps these problems have been sorted Paper. These include maximising value for money from these out. Again, I do not know what the final position is. assets, ensuring liabilities follow assets, and passing control down What I do know is that the universal view across the to the local level where possible”. north is that everyone wants to keep the assets in the “Maximising value for money” means selling off before region available for the use of the region. They do not assets fall further in value in the market that we are in want the ownership partnerships breaking up. They at the moment. “Passing control down to the local do not want a fire sale of assets in a collapsed market. level” means selling off to local authorities where they They do not want the private sector to move in and can afford to purchase. That is what I understand is take vast profits out of assets built up at the taxpayers’ going on at the moment. Plans are being laid for those expense. This could easily happen on the back of purchases where possible. hope-value assets. They want some form of successor body to be established, if necessary, for the handling 8.45 pm of those assets, which for all sorts of reasons in the If we want the measure of the real-world value of public interest should not be distributed at an early assets, we need do no more than look at what is stage. They want to be assured—this is very important— happening in property auctions throughout the United that the survival of the Welsh and the Scottish Kingdom and in the property market more generally. development agencies will not place them at an advantage What do we find? There are empty shops and offices over the regional and national residual arrangements all over the country. Commercial property is collapsing in the English regions for the attraction of inward in value. Commercial rents in much of the country are investment, otherwise we will be placed at a disadvantage. falling. A lot of property companies are collapsing. A That was the complaint of the English Forum of lot of factory leases are being sold off. The buy-to-let Regional Development Organisations in the mid-1990s. market is in difficulty. Repossessions in parts of the It cited marketing material in evidence for its accusations. country are increasing. Large tracks of land—agricultural, I keep asking myself, “Why destroy all this structure, agricultural with hope value, and residential land—are which has been so painstakingly created?”. I have all coming on to the market. Just look in the auction learnt over my lifetime that it is very hard to build catalogues. We can see what is happening. People are from scratch, anew. Think of the work that goes into off-loading in a market that is going down. House the design of the product and the establishment of the prices are falling as the market seizes up—a market brand name, the quality of the service and the where we have very low interest rates. What happens development of a pool of expertise capable of delivering when interest rates rise? That is the market in which a viable service, in all senses of the phrase. Yet it is so asset sales are taking place. That should surely worry easy to destroy it overnight—to destroy the product the Treasury. and end the service, breaking up the pool of talent and We are talking about major assets—buildings, land, expertise, to put the padlocks and chain on the gate head leases, clawback assets, business and technology- and close it all down and walk away. That is so simple; related assets and the rest. I can only presume that the it is much easier than actually creating an organisation. assets and liabilities working groups must have had a I hope that that is not what is going to happen here. hell of a time sorting out the complicated business of Finally, it might be helpful if I remind the House sharing out assets and liabilities, although I know that what happened 30 years ago. History will repeat itself the working groups have had great difficulty preparing on occasions. After the election of the Conservative the databases, identifying the extent of RDA overall Government in 1979, the Conservatives went in with assets and liabilities in both tangible and non-tangible calls from their supporters for the closure of the Welsh form. In the case of the Northwest Regional Development and Scottish development agencies. Then what happened? Agency, I understand that it has joint venture projects The Government took stock and stood back to consider with partnerships, termination and poor-performance the implications of such vandalism; they consulted payments based on final portfolio valuations. These and finally relented, and both the WDA and the SDA must be extremely hard to value. It also has rights to survived. Rational thought took over from blind prejudice. income from the sale of land acquired under grant. They realised that the agencies had a real role to play. 811 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 812

[LORD CAMPBELL-SAVOURS] to an unusual and unhealthy combination of Let us hope that events over the coming months give fragmentation of the agencies and centralisation of the Government, even at this very late stage, cause for some of the functions. thought and that in some way history may repeat itself. Today the Government have announced the creation of more enterprise zones, despite the doubts expressed Lord Beecham: My Lords, I very much endorse about the previous round of such zones by, among what my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours said. I others, the Work Foundation; Centre for Cities; again, remind him that Marx stated that history repeats itself and significantly, the Engineering Employers’ Federation; the first time as tragedy and the second time as farce. I and, despite the less-than-glowing experience within am not sure whether if it repeats itself in this Bill it will the north-east region itself, Middlesbrough and be tragedy or farce. It certainly poses considerable Hartlepool. Too often, as at Canary Wharf, the Metro threat to the regions of this country. Centre in Gateshead and other out-of-town developments, On the day that the Chancellor of the Exchequer zones created in the 1980s produced retail and office announces what he describes as a Budget for growth, developments with little in the way of the manufacturing it is paradoxical that we should be debating the abolition industry now recognised on all sides as essential to the of business-led regional development agencies that future prosperity of the nation. have played a significant part in both safeguarding What, one might ask, will be different this time, and creating jobs. It is true, as my noble friend Lady especially in the absence of strong, strategic bodies Royall reminded us, that in reflecting different regional with the skill and resources to secure the kind of economies and needs their performance has necessarily development and workforce skills so desperately needed? been somewhat variable. However, as the BIS Committee It is interesting to note, too, that today the Chancellor pointed out, there was strong support for RDAs and announced the welcome investment of £100 million in regional structures from the private sector, and especially, four new science facilities—at Cambridge, Norwich, and significantly, the Engineering Employers’ Federation, Harwell and Daresbury—but I contrast that with a particularly in the West Midlands and the north. cut of £8 million which should have gone to the There are significant worries, expressed by the Newcastle Science City development, started by the committee, about the loss of local knowledge and the previous Government, which the RDA had pledged risks of a “disorderly competitive scramble” within but which it is not now able to provide. regions, as well as serious questions about the disposal This brings me to the question of assets, which I of RDA assets which, in its view, are, raised in Committee and which my noble friends Lady “potentially of massive importance to the success or failure of Royall and Lord Campbell-Savours referred to. I received Local Enterprise Partnerships”— no satisfactory answer to those questions—perhaps, in the LEPs, which the Government apparently see as fairness to the Minister, because, as so often proves to successor bodies to RDAs. Yet these LEPs will have be the case, decisions are made these days long before neither power nor resources, nor a role in inward any consideration is given to, let alone any conclusions investment, innovation or access to finance, nor the reached about, their financial consequences. I understand European funds, including in particular the ERDF. that the North East Economic Partnership—an unofficial These are arguments of general application, like grouping, as yet, of local authorities and business those over the severely truncated funding reflected in leaders in the region—has submitted a bid in relation the Regional Growth Fund, just about one-third of to the retention of the RDA’s assets for the benefit of which was invested annually via RDAs. However, I the region. However, it seems that there is little likelihood want particularly to concentrate on the north-east, the of this bid succeeding, so the assets will not be transferred, very region singled out by Vince Cable last year, before thus denying the region a much needed resource. his halo slipped a little, as the one with the strongest This week the Newcastle Journal—a newspaper not, case for retaining a regional agency. in the wonderful phrase of the Secretary of State for One North East has invested £2.7 billion across the Communities and Local Government, a “town hall region, from the Tweed to the Tees, over the past Pravda”—writes: 11 years, attracting or helping to create 19,000 companies “The Journal has been told the message coming out of and creating or saving 160,000 jobs. It has led the way Government is that the assets will not be passed on. Vince Cable’s in developing the green economy, from support for Department for Business is currently considering the future of Nissan and its electric vehicles, to wind turbine production the assets. If they are handed to the Partnership”— and offshore wind power and, in the past year, a that is, the North East Economic Partnership— £60 million investment in a low-carbon initiative in the “it will fund their work in trying to bring in major new firms and Tees Valley, and much else besides. It has promoted lobby on behalf of the region in Whitehall. Also up for grabs is engineering apprenticeships; established a £125 million £62.5m worth of loan repayments handed out in public funding fund, Finance for Business North East; and attracted over the last decade. The North East Economic Partnership has £100 million from the European Investment Bank and told the Government it is vital this money is kept in the region, so as to be used for further job creation”. £300 million from the ERDF for the period 2007-13. In the past year alone, it attracted 55 foreign and five That is the united voice of business and local government UK companies to the region, creating 2,000 new jobs of all political colours in the north-east. and safeguarding 5,000 more. Its record on tourism I ask the Minister to tell us the current position. has been remarkable. Tourism is worth about £4 billion What meetings have Ministers held with north-east to the regional economy, and the north-east has had councils and business leaders about the issue of assets? the biggest growth in tourism of anywhere in the What criteria will be applied in coming to a decision, country outside London. Yet all this is now at risk due and when will such a decision be made? Will he give an 813 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 814 assurance that there will not be, in the phrase that has look at places like Blyth, Ashington, Broomhill, been much used tonight, a fire sale of assets in what is, Widdrington and so on, is very much akin to areas of after all, a languishing market, to be applied to national Durham. When you look at the north-east, you can deficit reduction? see that there is industrial concentration around the Finally, I turn to the question of the actual decision rivers and where the population tends to concentrate, about abolition. Most of us have taken it as read that and then around the whole of that area in a continuous since the Government announced the abolition of belt of spectacular countryside you have the RDAs last year and included them in the Bill, this was Northumberland national park, the Durham dales, settled government policy. I was therefore surprised to Teesdale and the North York moors. The region is read in the letter to my noble friend Lady Royall—which very cohesive. has already been referred to; and signed, of course, by It is true, as others have pointed out, that the the Minister—that not only have the Government, north-east did not vote for a regional assembly but, “not so far undertaken a formal consultation on the abolition of having campaigned in that election, I know that there the RDAs”, was certainly no controversy over the regional development but that they would, agency at that time. Generally there has been wide “consult before laying any order”. acceptance of the need for a regional development Will he therefore assure the House that such a consultation authority in the north-east. It helps manufacturing will take place in every region and, most importantly, vocations in the north-east—its exporting vocation, on the basis that the Government will be open to which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, mentioned in an persuasion by business, local government and their earlier debate—in such sectors as engineering, the social partners strictly on the merits of each individual offshore sector and energy, as well as the way in which case, such that they will not be in the position of either universities in the north-east have collaborated with abolishing all RDAs or none? industry. We on this side recognise, as I am sure other noble The region is very cohesive economically. My final Lords will, that that there are relatively stronger and word to the Government is therefore: be flexible, be relatively weaker cases for retention. Will the Minister generous, consult more widely and be prepared to give us an assurance that each will be considered on its change course. merits on a case-by-case basis, assuming, as I fervently hope to be the case, that the amendment moved by my Lord Grantchester: I shall speak to Amendment 17A noble friend is not lost? in the absence of my noble friend Lord Liddle. In doing so I declare my interest in the region, having 9pm served on the sub-regional body Cheshire and Warrington Baroness Quin: My Lords, I support the amendment Economic Alliance, one of five sub-regional bodies that my noble friend Lord Beecham has tabled and to under the Northwest Regional Development Agency. which I have put my name. I strongly agreed with the In the run-up to the most recent election, early noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, who showed why versions of the Conservative-led Government’s regional many of us have doubts that LEPs would be capable policy seemed to suggest that both the north-western of carrying out the many tasks that regional development and north-eastern development boards would be retained, agencies have carried out until now. Indeed, if they as there was general recognition of the benefits that were able to carry out those tasks then the two would each had brought to their regions. That recognition effectively be duplicating each other and causing the was reinforced by an independent evaluation undertaken picture to be much more confused than it has been. by PwC, drawing attention to the strategic coherence With regard to the north-east, the Government brought and the GVA delivered. have said that they have a localism agenda. The simple It was therefore something of a disappointment message therefore has to be: if local people want this, when it was announced that all RDAs were to be why can they not have it? My noble friend Lady disbanded. As a public-private partnership, the new Armstrong of Hill Top described in an earlier debate Cheshire LEP is taking the coherency of the sub-region how the original impetus for the north-east regional forward, but without any resources. It is undertaking development agency had come from within the north-east some very worthwhile projects, such as with Liverpool itself. I pay tribute to a former Member of this House, University to explore the value of the equine sector in Lord Burlison, who, along with industry in the region, Cheshire West, and in rural housing, through a joint brought trade unions and industry together in a cohesive commission set up by rural regeneration and housing way in order to create a development agency before teams. That is all very worth while, but it is without the one was officially sanctioned by the Government. wider coherency of reciprocal support provided from That was an important experience which showed what the NWDA, following agreement on priorities across the attitude was in the north-east. the whole region. The concern is that, without the During the course of these debates, various Members wider regional strategy brought by the NWDA, policies have said, “Well, the north-east isn’t so cohesive”. I will fracture into parochialism, with so-called local remember the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, who is in areas failing to see the bigger picture, to share best his place, saying that Northumberland was very different practice or to co-ordinate. I refer in this respect to the from parts of Durham, and I think that the Minister leadership shown on climate change policies and guidance concurred somewhat with that point of view. I was that is so necessary if we are to meet our future born and brought up in Northumberland; I live there obligations. now and have lived in different parts of that county. I will not repeat the debate in Committee, as my The history of Northumberland, particularly if you noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has spoken tonight 815 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 816

[LORD GRANTCHESTER] RDAs at their best to cut across local authority boundaries very powerfully. At the moment, there is confusion and to promote a regional level transport agenda. over the process of change. The decision to abolish the How are LEPs going to do it, given that they cover RDAs so quickly has created major challenges for much smaller areas? For instance, in the West Midlands, existing destination organisations and, accordingly, is it really sensible to split Birmingham from the Black rather than focusing on opportunities such as provided Country? It is a complete nonsense. by the 2012 Olympics, they have been forced to reorganise. Let us talk about the resources needed for the This has lost time and momentum, especially with development of major infrastructure. The number one there being no strategic transition plan in place to priority for us is the extension of the runway at guide the move from RDAs to LEPs. Birmingham International Airport. However, the To continue with the 2012 theme, there is a great Government’s last-minute decision to change the rules risk that this opportunity cannot be grasped. For the and go only for short-term, quick-win projects for the visitor economy, there is a need to provide the national first £250 million that was available meant that bidding organisation, visitEngland, with support to fill the for Birmingham airport expansion was stopped in its current gap, while existing visitor businesses need to tracks. No wonder the Birmingham Post said in a engage with new organisations that will emerge, albeit leader on 27 January that the launch of LEPs has that they will be much reduced in terms of both been, human and financial resources. Another disappointing “an unmitigated and embarrassing disaster”. consequence of the plan to disband the NWDA concerns Instead of a region working together, what will we see? the future provision of the EU funding provided through We will see arguments and splits between LEPs that the economic rural development funds. This highlights are side by side in the same region, when they should the vacuum in the present Government’s policy on be working together. regions. Instead of providing access to these much-needed The Government’s admission that their policy is a rural development funds under Pillar 2 local arrangements nonsense relates to BIS’s decision to recreate regional at local level, the Conservative-led coalition seems to offices. What better indication could you have that the favour implementing these centrally, in direct contradiction business department knows that the abolition of RDAs to its localism agenda. The rural economy deserves was a very silly decision which anyone concerned for better. economic development in this country could only Finally, there seems to be no thought on what will oppose? The Government are making a big mistake in happen on asset ownership, both physical and intellectual, abolishing RDAs. Will the Minister respond to my and how the area can derive maximum benefit from noble friend Lady Quin, who asked why on earth their previous investments. There is still time to reconsider. those regions where there was a clear and strong I support my noble friend’s amendment. consensus to retain RDAs, are not allowed to keep them going? Why should we be forced to downgrade, disrupt and undermine regional growth simply because Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I shall speak there is some kind of doctrinaire political approach to Amendment 18. Like my noble friend Lord Kennedy, that says we cannot live with RDAs? I find it quite extraordinary that the Government have decided to abolish RDAs on a day when the growth Lord Empey: My Lords, I had the opportunity to forecast has been reduced yet again. It is a quite make some remarks on this issue at Second Reading. I bizarre decision. do not believe that anybody in this House is not in I speak from the particular context of the West favour of growth or strong regional policy; that is Midlands, looking at the performance of Advantage common ground. The point I tried to make at Second West Midlands. The West Midlands is a great place to Reading was: is the present structure fit for current-day live, but recently our economy faces many formidable purpose? challenges. Advantage West Midlands has done a very I regret that I did not hear the beginning of the good job in the past few years, drawing people together remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and identifying real projects to invest in. As a result, but I heard several of them in what was a very passionate we can see the regeneration of Longbridge, after the speech. In referring to one case, he commented that collapse of the manufacturing industry there. We have councils did not necessarily have drive. However, leadership seen the regeneration of Fort Dunlop, with 140,000 jobs in any organisation, whether it is an RDA, a council or safeguarded, 28,000 helped back into work and 160,000 anything else, will vary from body to body, just as people helped to get better skills. Over 100,000 businesses leadership in a school will vary from body to body. I were helped to improve their performance. As Sir Roy have to say that there are examples of local authorities McNulty, the chair of Advantage West Midlands said doing very difficult things. In my own case, I was a at its last AGM, it is clear that its abolition has been member of a local authority that redeveloped the based on political reasons rather than on its actual most polluted site in Ireland—a former gas works. It is track record. now a thriving economic area. We developed the The CBI said that, waterfront and brownfield sites. Where the right leadership “in the rush to abolish Regional Development Agencies … and is in place, you can do a lot of things. We were able to elicit bids for Local Enterprise Partnerships … there is a risk of tap into ERDF and even ESF to train the local people throwing out the baby with the bathwater”. who will, we hope, get some benefit from the Again, the CBI has singled out transport as a critical redevelopment, instead of looking through the railings issue for improving economic growth. It concluded at the parked BMWs. We can do that if the leadership that LEPs need to find a way to replicate the ability of is in place. 817 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 818

I wanted to say one thing to the noble Lord. He noble Lords about assets—that is an important issue—but said that it was more difficult to create a structure or creating bodies is easiest; amalgamating them is the organisation than to close one down. I have to take the next most difficult; and closing them is the most very opposite view. I had the opportunity to create an difficult. That is my experience and this debate proves organisation like an RDA. I had the opportunity to the point. Every body that you consider has a lobby in merge bodies together and the opportunity to close support of it. While I acknowledge the great work that them. The easiest thing to do was to create them. It a number of these organisations have done—it would was more difficult to merge them, and the most difficult be churlish not to say that—the fact is that the mechanisms thing was to close them. That is why we have so we have to adopt to improve our economic growth many—not only RDAs but public bodies in general. have moved on and different structures and models Departments liked to put a body out there that could must be adopted. take the flak and the front fire to protect the department from taking the blame for things. The existence of a Lord Cavendish of Furness: My Lords, I crave the body, whatever it might be, and the ability to say, indulgence of the House in intervening in a debate in “These people have autonomy to deal with this”, which I have not previously taken part. Just in case it is protects the Civil Service from its responsibilities. It is felt that the argument has been entirely one-sided, I good to be able to put these bodies out there as a sort remind your Lordships that in my part of the world on of barrage to protect the centre from local criticism, the Barrow-in-Furness peninsular, where I declare an because there is always someone else to blame. That is interest in running a small business, the economy is why there are so many of these bodies. driven by companies such as these, which employ some 100 or 200 people. I do not want to be unkind to Many of them have done excellent work. As has the people in these agencies who have done their best, already been said, some of these RDAs have been but in my part of the world it would be fair to say that good and some have been not so good; that is human there is no consensus that we want to keep them. nature. It is the human condition. That relates to the Businesses of my size do not feel that the agencies are leadership they give, their policies and the opportunities approachable or are the answer. We want government that have been taken. However, we have to be mature to get off our backs and leave us alone. I am reminded about the whole issue of public bodies. Everyone of my father, who told me: “My boy, if the Government admits that we have too many of them. No matter offer you a grant, it is probably not worth taking”. which one you touch, it is inevitable that a group of people will support it. Lord Hoyle: That might be the view of the noble In many cases, some of the reasons that noble Lord, but I am afraid that he is not living in the real Lords have put forward have been perfectly plausible. world. How can he be when he has made a statement However, the real issue, as I pointed out at Second like that? Let him look at what has been created by Reading, is the change in Europe, where the resources RDAs. I will not speak for very long, because my that used to be available to this country will no longer noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours made a very be available post-2013, because the money is flowing powerful case. However, I believe that we are talking east, as we all know. The economic profile of our to people who will not listen to the arguments that we economy has changed. We brought to bear solutions are putting. I am pleased that the noble Lord intervened through these large battleship bodies with budgets of from that side, because he is the first to do so: it has hundreds of millions of pounds. Those bodies were been only us speaking. right at the time, just as the Agricultural Wages Board The RDAs have done a wonderful job. I have a was right at the time. However, times have moved on. copy of a letter that was addressed to my noble friend Europe’s policy has changed. We now have to manage Lady Royall. I was critical when the Minister was within our own resources. winding up last time and said that he was not answering the debate. He has now taken the trouble to try to I am not as pessimistic about the role that local answer the debate and I thank him for that. It is not authorities can play and what happens regarding the always done. Having said that, I do not agree with local enterprise partnerships remains to be seen. However, most of the answers he gave; he will not be surprised as always, a lot of this will come down to leadership about that. on the ground. It is the same for the military, a I could go through every paragraph of the letter, company, a school or a business—and it is the same but it is too late in the evening. I will refer to one for a local authority or an RDA. We must look at an paragraph that deals with the independent evaluation alternative model, because circumstances have moved by PriceWaterhouseCoopers that demonstrated that on, and in trying to deal with the plethora of public every pound spent by RDAs added approximately bodies, you could almost come to a complete standstill £4.50 to regional economies. In the case of the north-west, if you did not make some attempt to bring about the figure was greater: £5.20. However, no answer is change. given in the paragraph. It simply states: There is no doubt that the biggest challenge we face “We appreciate the work they have done”. is on growing our economy. We all complain about the The issue is not whether we appreciate the work they lack of warships and aircraft carriers. Where is the have done, but who is going to pick up the mantle and money coming from to pay for them, if it is not do the work in future. There is no answer to the coming from economic growth and wealth creation? question of where we will get replacement agencies Those are our only sources, other than borrowing—and that will secure that kind of growth. As has been said we know where that got us. There is little alternative often tonight, we are going back to localism instead of but to try an alternative. I take the points made by looking at regions as a whole. 819 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 820

[LORD HOYLE] jobs and attract more visitors to Cumbria, and I The regions did benefit. The noble Lord, Lord mention Cumbria and not just the Lake District. As Cavendish, said that he had an interest in Barrow-in- an aside, perhaps I may say how pleased I was that the Furness. When the floods hit Cumbria, the RDA Government decided to shortlist the Lake District as a brought help to local businesses in need within four possible World Heritage Site—I declare an interest as days. That was not matched by any other body, and it chairman of the bid—and how important that will be will not be matched by any new bureaucracy that is in creating jobs and stimulating the economy. I remind going to be established. the Minister that Cumbria has more than 40 million I will repeat what has been done for the north-west visitors a year and that 32,860 full-time jobs are dependent by the Northwest Regional Development Agency: 220,000 on tourism. It adds £2 billion to the economy. jobs have been preserved, 23,000 new businesses have In order to succeed, you need leadership, and sometimes been created and £3.2 billion of private investment has that involves investment. Of course, since the North-West been brought in. These are huge sums. The agency has Development Agency has gone, the funds have dried looked at the region as a whole. If we split it up, we up for Cumbria Tourism. It has already had to reduce will not get that sort of aid. its staff from 45 to 19, so there is a serious problem I will not go on. I thank the Minister for replying, there. However, it is not only a problem of attracting but ask him to reply also to the debate tonight, because tourism; it is also a question of trying to compete too much is at stake in the regions: too many jobs and against the equally attractive tourist resorts just over too much inward investment. Why should the RDAs the border in Scotland. That takes me back to the be destroyed because of a political decision that I problem of living in a border economy—things are believe is wrong? Not only do I believe that it is wrong, different compared with other parts of the country. but many other Members of the House believe that, too. More importantly, people and businesses in the I conclude by raising the issue of the assets and regions believe that it is wrong. If the Minister is contractual commitments of the development agency. saying that we can do the job with other organisations, In a letter to me dated 1 March, Robert Hough, the can he tell me what funding will be given to the new chair of the Northwest Regional Development Agency, bodies? As I understand it, there is no funding, and if said that he believes: there is no funding they will not be able to do the job. “Any ongoing contractual commitments beyond March 2012 Will the Minister reassure me that adequate funds will are likely to be transferred to BIS, other Government Departments be made available? or possibly a national residual body”. I raise a specific point with the Minister that disturbs me greatly. It is why, in a sense, I am opposed to this Lord Clark of Windermere: My Lords, I support move that the Government are proposing this evening. the case made by my noble friends through their One of the problems of the north-west of England is various amendments. In doing so, having spent many the amount of derelict land. I believe that it has more years in public life, I reflect that there are certain derelict land than any other region in the country—all constant difficulties and challenges. In our previous the disused coal spoil heaps and the industrial bases. debate on this issue, I remember the case being made The Northwest Regional Development Agency’s economic for the establishment of the northern development appraisal came up with the conclusion—surprise, agency, including the northern part of the north-west surprise—that the way forward was to green these and the north-east of England. The one overarching areas, to enhance their environment, to make them pressure on the NDA was how to challenge what was more attractive to inward investment, and to improve clearly going to be a devolved nation in Scotland. That the health and the lives of the people who live there. was a very powerful problem. Unless you live in a frontier-type economy, you do not really appreciate As a result, the Northwest Regional Development the rather different problems that might be experienced Agency entered into partnerships with the Forestry compared with the rest of the country. Commission, the Wildlife Trusts and local authorities. I remember how the development agencies in Scotland As a result, there has been a huge greening in the in the early 1980s constantly tried to offer inducements north-west of England in the old industrial areas. I to companies in the north of England to relocate in repeat what I said before, but it just gives me so much Scotland with grants, which the local authorities—because pleasure to say it. Over recent years we have planted there was no development agency then—could match. over a million trees in Wigan, over a million trees in That was one of the prime reasons for the almost Moseley, over a million trees in Ellesmere Port, 2 million universal support for the agency in the north of the trees in Vale Royal, and 2 million trees in Warrington. country—a point made by my noble friends Lady This is a mammoth undertaking that has revolutionised Quin and Lord Beecham. That problem will still exist. the environment and will do so increasingly in that It is eight miles from Carlisle to the border and it is part of Lancashire. It will also make it more attractive easy to relocate if you get financial inducements. We potentially for inward investment. have to face up to that challenge. Therefore, I park This was done through partnership, commitment with the Minister the thought that that problem will and investment by the Forestry Commission, and through not go away. long-term leases with various charities and local Perhaps I may raise two specific issues. My noble authorities. As a result, the Northwest Regional friend Lord Beecham pointed out how important tourism Development Agency has an ongoing commitment to was becoming to the north-east of England. It is just the year 2029 of roughly £6.6 million. Who will pay as important in the north-west, especially in Cumbria. that money? Who will accept the liability? How will Work was initially carried out on how to create more the funds be paid to the main recipient, the Forestry 821 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 822

Commission? I seek assurances from the Minister on has been that the RDAs did a good job. They helped that issue because it is very important as we go to reduce unemployment. A lot of the 2 million jobs forward, and it exemplifies my point that this proposal that we produced at the time were public sector jobs, has not been thought through, the ends have not been let us be honest. I do not think that a public sector job tied up, and, certainly, I cannot support the Government is wrong. When so many thousand jobs went in the tonight. north-east, it was stated that they were state jobs, as if something was wrong with someone who was employed as a public servant, whether they were in a hospital, a Lord Prescott: My Lords, I welcome this opportunity school, another public service or even just emptying to talk about the RDAs; I played some part in their bins, for God’s sake. They were in a job and were an creation a number of years ago. I must apologise to essential part of economic development. Yes, a lot of the Committee because I am not as briefed as perhaps them were in public service, but that began to have its I should have been. I was in the Council of Europe effect in the economy. It lifted demand. It had a today and I realised that the debate was on this consumer effect. It gave more confidence. The development afternoon. We need to understand what was inherited agencies over that period were a success. You can when the Regional Development Agencies were created. always ask how much that cost. You might ask yourself People have so easily forgotten. We were talking about how much it saved when mass unemployment gives 3 million unemployed, about massive disinvestment in you a heck of a cost, never mind what you might feel public services, and about a growing disparity and the excessive administrative cost is of what is called a growing inequalities between the north and south in quango. They were bodies that did their job. That was jobs, education and investment. If anything was to be important. done about this, we felt that we had to do more than simply leave it to the market. What was the solution? What worries me now is what the strategy is. A The noble Lord, Lord Lawson of Blaby, was the noble Lord said that we should look at what happened Chancellor in charge of a great deal of the economy at in Scotland and Wales. I remember arguing about this that time and the results that we were left with were in the other place. They said, “We are going to abolish quite disastrous, frankly. I will not repeat them, or go the Scottish and Welsh development agencies”, and into detail, but it was totally unacceptable to us. We they did not. As soon as they came to power they came to power doing something about employment. realised their success and the demand from the local and regional area to keep their RDAs. Admittedly, the The employment was not just in the north and Government recognised that at the time and refused to south, although the disparities had grown. I recall, abolish them. Why did they not abolish them? Because when I produced my alternative regional strategy, they were doing a good job. Why did we think the going to the northern region and saying that we were RDAs were needed in the English regions? Because going to have a regional development agency for every they had done a good job in Scotland and in Wales. part of the UK. It was suggested to me that as a They had improved their economies while ours had northern politician I should just think of the north gone down and down, and it seemed that a significant and not the south. It was a very complicated meeting, feature of that was the regional development agencies, but I pointed out that with a million unemployed in so we wanted them in all our regions. Even if the the south, we could not be indifferent to that, whatever growth in the south-east was always higher than in the the growth rates and differentials between each of the north-east, there was still a need to develop the regional regions. We needed to develop the expertise, the assets. Regional development bodies can do that, and partnership and the public and private sector, and set they did. a body up that could take a regional analysis to do something about it. This was welcomed by business. In The only time there was any move to make some fact, business today still has very warm words to say change was after the Toxteth riots in 1981. The noble about the RDAs, particularly when compared with the Lord, Lord Heseltine, was sent up with a busload of organisations that the Government now propose to set bankers to look at what they could do in Liverpool. up if they abolish the RDAs—and they are on the way One result was that they developed these garden centres—I to doing so. cannot remember their name. It was important that business chaired every one of the RDAs. We thought that it was very important to Lord Beecham: Garden festivals. have business chairmen who got the co-operation of the local authorities and the various bodies and developed, Lord Prescott: Garden centres, garden festivals, you as their first priority, a regional strategy for the assets can pick the word you want. I think that the one in of a region to see how they could best develop them to Liverpool collapsed after its show and still nothing the advantage of the region, and not to compete, as has been built on that ground. We have to develop in a was often the case in regional policy before. Governments, more effective way, although to be fair to the noble including Labour Governments, went round offering Lord, Lord Heseltine, I agreed with him that the bags of gold to industry to move the motor car development at Canary Wharf was significant. industry from A to B. That was basically the strategy. Transforming the docks into new industrial developments In some cases, that brought jobs, but it did not deal and commercial centres has been a success. That was with the most important thing: to develop the assets of intervention. the region and the economy. I recall, when we came to power in 1997, meeting If you look at the record, the judgment of the Audit Mr Walker—I am not sure whether he was a Lord or Commission, parliamentary groups and businesses not—who was in charge of English Partnerships. He themselves looking impartially at each of the regions said, “We are not a body of intervention”. I said, 823 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 824

[LORD PRESCOTT] completed. The company said, “We could take on a “Well, we are on different tracks then”. He said, “I am hundred more people manufacturing in Hull, helping telling you that we won’t do that”. I had to say to him, growth, if someone would let us expand and buy or “Obviously you have not read the papers. We are now lease that empty land and build the road to make the the Government. It is going to be a body of intervention”. connection”. Well, that seems obvious. They gave me a English Partnerships did an excellent job, including in ring, I spoke to them, and the local MP is of course the coalfield communities that had been destroyed by involved in this. When I inquired of the regional the previous Government. It set up an active intervention development agency that owns the land, “Why aren’t partnership, public and private, in the coalfield you helping this company to expand?”, it said, “Sorry, communities. The Audit Commission reports show all our assets are now being transferred to BIS”. Then that it did an excellent job. More people are now they said that the local authorities cannot agree between employed in coalfield areas than when there were the themselves whether there should be one local body, previous jobs. which might be a trust, representing the north or one By the way, most coalfield areas are rural areas. representing the south. Businessmen are disagreeing Enterprise centres are now being talked about. That with what the council is coming up with. It causes was all done before. I notice from the list here that very delay. This company is being held up because of the few of them are in rural areas; they are in the cities. problems in organised infrastructure that we are now Fine, but there is a lot of high unemployment in rural inheriting. areas as well, and those enterprise zones are designed I hope that the Minister will look at this. I am sure to help urban development. You do not get a balanced that he wants to see jobs. Certainly, the Chancellor development. You might help the cities in a marginal says that he wants to see growth. Well, he could make way, but what you want from regional development a decision tomorrow that will bring that about, not all agencies is balanced development. Only the RDAs can that waffle we have heard in the Commons today. I am do that. They are also important for bringing in money sure that there are many other examples from around from Europe. Before the RDAs in Britain, most of the country, but I would not have to come to Parliament Europe did not bother. The recognition was of the for that. RDAs did that all the time. They made those county authorities. The county authorities were not decisions, created the jobs and co-ordinated the public big enough to deal with the actual decisions that had and private investment. That is what the RDAs did. to be taken. You needed a body that was recognised at We had 10 years of them showing their success. Now the regional level, because we were the only country in the Government are coming along with these silly Europe that did not have a regional body. You needed ideas to abolish them. The result will not be that to co-ordinate those resources, to bring the strengths waffle, it will be more on the dole and less growth. We together and to make it important. will be back in the circumstances that we inherited Now it is basically proposed to abolish them. Frankly, many years ago, which led us to set up the RDAs. I agree with our amendment. I am not against reform. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, there might be RDAs came out of reform; we did not like what was a change of tone with my contribution to this debate. there, we changed it, and that has been effective. This is a serious matter and I approach the topic with Apparently, being successful is now a real problem; we humility, but with a determination to demonstrate the abolish you. What worries me most of all is that they reasons for the Government’s decision. It is a political are being replaced with the old structures that we had decision; we make no apology for that. It is a political before and that failed before. The Government seem response to the economic situation in which this country to believe that it is just the market. I heard the Chancellor finds itself. I hope that noble Lords will give me the today talking about “growth, growth, growth”. The opportunity to explain the origins of that decision and trouble is that he is not achieving it. We are creating what the Government intend to do to maintain a the same kinds of problems that we had before. We do programme of growth announced by the Chancellor not maximise growth, but unemployment. That is of the Exchequer in circumstances in which the vast what will come out of this. sums of money that were available to sustain the A number of noble Lords have said in these debates regional development agency structure are no longer that, looking at what will happen to some of these available. areas with RDAs, we are already beginning to witness I am not at all surprised at the passion that has been confusion coming about due to the setting up of local vented this evening. I am a provincial myself. I come enterprise partnerships. I have got them in my area. I from the east Midlands and I am very proud of my notice the enterprise zones in these areas, and now background. I have to say that I rather share the there is talk about partnerships. Problems are already experience of my noble friend Lord Cavendish when it beginning to develop. comes to the impact of the regional development I finish on this point, because I have already seen it agency for the east Midlands in my part of the world, in Hull. Hull is an area of high unemployment. That but perhaps that is because I live in a relatively remote reduced under Labour, but it is still an area of high rural area and our problems are not at the top of the unemployment. We now have a problem that was agenda. We have learnt to rely on our own resources brought to my attention about a week ago, with a probably a good deal more than other communities company in my former constituency that produces can afford to do. modular bathrooms. It has been highly successful. It is manufacturing. It employs hundreds of people. It 9.45 pm wants to expand on an existing, empty, two-acre industrial I agree with noble Lords that the RDAs did some estate where the road has been half done but not good work in their time, but as I listened to the debate 825 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 826

I have become more and more convinced that we are different artificial regions. I live on the border between right to try to bring forward a new approach to this the east Midlands and the eastern region and it creates enormously challenging problem. Where I differ is on real practical difficulties. whether a regional approach is an appropriate one in the circumstances in which we find ourselves in 2011. Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the Minister The noble Lord, Lord Empey, speaking from his refers to the problem of borders but how are the experience in Northern Ireland, pointed out the degree Government dealing with the problem of borders by to which, during their time, the RDAs had access to splitting Birmingham from the Black Country? It is highly significant budgets. When money is abundant it sheer madness in terms of getting support across a is easy to find supporters, even if the projects you fund region for the major infrastructure projects that are so are not necessarily the most appropriate for the growth desperately needed. of particular places. However, even before the last election there were Lord Taylor of Holbeach: I think the noble Lord is signs that the situation was unsustainable. The funding under a misapprehension. The difficulty with RDAs to which the noble Lord, Lord Hoyle, referred is no was that they had clearly defined, strict borders. The longer available. The previous Government found that great thing about LEPs is that they are partnerships they had to reduce RDA budgets several times, including and they are flexible enough to be able to work together by more than £300 million in the 2010-11 financial when they need to. That is our answer to the question year. When the present Government came to power, it of the north-east. There are opportunities for LEPs to was clear that the reductions in spending would need work together across boundaries. That is their huge to continue. In our earlier debate, noble Lords criticised advantage over the strictly geographically delineated the regional growth fund for providing less money boundaries that existed between RDAs and the difficulty than the RDAs had at their peak. The fact is that of getting joint projects going with them. spending at that level is no longer sustainable. We The south Midlands was an area of the country cannot return to a position where the eight RDAs where the south-east, the east Midlands and the eastern outside London had a combined budget of nearly £2 region met in an area around Milton Keynes, billion a year, as they did in 2006-07, whether or not Northampton and Bedford. That particular group the bodies continue to exist. now has an LEP in common. It is a true economic region in the sense that there is a community of It would have been perfectly possible to have continued interest across what previously was RDA territory. We with the existing structure. This would have meant have deliberately placed the onus on the partners to retaining bodies in each region with a wide range of show that they have identified a real economic area to responsibilities, but with seriously diminished resources. cover. We have not sought to second-guess them. We Since we are committed to the effective delivery of have asked the partners to think again about a particular economic growth throughout the country, we considered proposal only where there is a substantial difference of that that would be irresponsible. Put bluntly, we need view in the area itself and in the places around it. to ensure that we get more bang for our buck than we The RDAs were expensive bodies to run and often were getting from the RDAs. In our earlier debate, duplicated activities which could be better undertaken noble Lords referred to estimates made by at local or national level. In much of the country PricewaterhouseCoopers that every pound spent by people felt little or no attachment to regions. In our an RDA added £4.50 to the regional economy. I do earlier debate much was made of the local support for not wish to cast those figures in doubt, but the same the north-eastern and north-western regions. The noble report showed that more than half of those benefits Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, talked of the way in came from less than 20 per cent of RDA total spending. which Cumbria identifies more strongly with Newcastle There was a long tail of projects that delivered little or than with Manchester. Only yesterday the House approved no value to the regional economy. Nor was it clear the creation of the Greater Manchester combined whether the benefits of investment were spread equally authority. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and I took throughout the region or were strongly localised. Finally, that through as a statutory instrument in the Moses the fact remains that the gap in growth rates between Room last week. It reflected the desire of that area for the regions and the rest of the country, to which the a stronger local focus. I remain doubtful that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, rightly drew attention at enthusiasm for a unified north-east region runs quite the time when he took initiatives on RDAs, remained as high by the Tees as it does by the Tyne. stubbornly wide for all the regions and all that money. Inequality in growth rates has not been reduced by the In our new circumstances we need lighter, more RDAs. nimble bodies, capable of forging new linkages and alliances, rather than being caught up in regional In proposing changes to the delivery of local economic straitjackets. Where partnerships wish to work together, development, we have two guiding principles. The first we welcome it. If they had chosen areas which had is partnership. Although the RDAs have broadly matched one or more of the former regions and been representative boards, these were selected in Whitehall. able to demonstrate economic benefits and support The boards of local enterprise partnerships are chosen from businesses and local authorities, we would have locally and directly involve local authorities and businesses welcomed that too, but the fact is that they did not. In with a stake in a specific area. The second is appropriate our previous discussion I pointed to the enthusiastic geography. As in our previous discussion, I refer to the response we have received throughout the country to south Midlands, where joint work on economic our call to develop local enterprise partnerships. On development was hampered by the borders of three 8 March 2011 the 31 partnerships sent 90 representatives 827 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 828

[LORD TAYLOR OF HOLBEACH] The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, also raised questions to a summit in Coventry. The Prime Minister, the about the north-east. Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretaries of State for Business and Communities were all present. They Lord Campbell-Savours: The letter to my noble confirmed their support for the formation of an friend refers to a nominated single national contractor. association to help partnerships share knowledge and Could the Minister give us a little more information as ideas. This idea came from the partnerships. The Deputy to what is intended? What sort of body would it be? Prime Minister also announced that the second of the Would it be a private sector body or an existing regional growth funds would open on 12 April, and company? Is it to be established by some consortium? those successful in the first round will be announced What actually is it as an entity? shortly. Some £1.4 billion will be in that fund over the next three years. 10 pm I am grateful that my previous letter has been well received. I shall do my best to answer some of the Lord Taylor of Holbeach: When we are in a position questions that have been asked tonight, although it to make an announcement about that, we shall. I am may not be possible to do so in the case of some of not in a position to do so at this point in the debate. those which were highly specific. I shall do my best to The noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, raised give answers that cover some of the most central a number of interesting questions based not only on points raised. The first question was what the Chancellor the experience of his work with the Forestry Commission announced today. He announced that the Government but on his location in Cumbria. On the issue of would introduce 21 new enterprise zones. I do not competition with Scotland for inward investment, UKTI belittle them—the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, did co-ordinates the work on this, and one of its main rather. They will all be important; they will all be aims is to avoid wasteful competition between different established in LEPs; and they will be focuses for parts of the UK for inward investment. The noble growth. The Budget names the LEPs that will receive Lord, quite appropriately, asked specifically about the the first enterprise zones, plus London. The next 10 will trees and their liabilities. At present, the Northwest be established through a competitive process. Benefits Regional Development Agency is discussing plans for include the business rate discount over a five-year its assets and liabilities with the Government. I cannot period. give a response on the future of these assets until these It was asked whether LEPs have the capacity to discussions are completed. take on the wide range of projects envisaged—the A number of noble Lords asked about the process noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, made this point of consultation. One of the lessons noble Lords will particularly strongly. The capacity of LEPs will vary take from this Bill is that the Government are serious initially. Some are based on well established structures— about consultation. The procedures laid down in the Manchester being an example of an existing structure, Bill require Ministers to come to Parliament with full let alone the fact that it now has a combined authority— details of the impacts of any policy change that they but others are entirely new. The LEPs are establishing seek to bring in through statutory instruments. There a network to share experience and best practice to will be full consultation. I shall be happy to keep the bring new partnerships up to speed quickly. House informed on the nature of this consultation The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, in what I over the next few months while this process of change acknowledge was a very impassioned speech, asked is going on. whether there would be a fire sale of assets. The brief From a standing start in September 2010, partnerships answer to that is no. It will be a managed process. now cover 80 per cent of active businesses in the UK Assets of which it makes commercial sense to dispose and 87 per cent of the population. We are looking in the short term are being identified and a list will be forward to reaching 100 per cent. We believe that we made available to local authorities shortly. However, have unleashed a wave of enthusiasm for economic where it is more sensible to dispose of assets over the development at local level. In many places there is no medium or long term, it will be done. It is important appetite to go back to the old arrangements. It was to emphasise that the RDAs are liaising with the local clear from our earlier debate that many noble Lords authorities within their patch and with the LEPs to retain their attachment to RDAs as they were. However, make sure that this process is managed efficiently. we do not believe that a return to the circumstances of It was suggested, I think by the noble Lord, Lord a few years ago is either appropriate or possible. We Beecham, that the LEPs will not have a role in inward are now in a new situation and we need to ensure that investment and European funding. That is not the economic activity is taken forward across the right case, because UKTI and the DCLG have made it clear geography by fully committed partnerships. RDAs do that they will work closely with LEPs and other local not fit in with that new approach and I therefore ask partners on inward investment and on the European the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment. regional development fund. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, also asked what discussions were going on Lord Beecham: Will the Government consult on the about the position of the North East Economic basis of all or nothing or will they approach each case Partnership and its assets. Discussions are ongoing; I in each region on its merits and listen with an open cannot comment on the path that they are taking. mind to the arguments of business as well as local However, we have confirmed that that we are not able government and its social partners? Will they take a to pass on assets as gifts or for deferred consideration decision on a case by case basis or, as I say, will it be all to that partnership. or nothing. 829 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 830

Lord Taylor of Holbeach: This is a listening Harris of Haringey, L. Morgan of Huyton, B. Government and they are prepared to listen. They will Haworth, L. Morris of Handsworth, L. listen to advice from everyone who feels that they have Hayter of Kentish Town, B. Nye, B. Healy of Primrose Hill, B. Patel, L. something to offer on this subject, take note of that Hollis of Heigham, B. Pitkeathley, B. advice and make decisions where appropriate. Howarth of Newport, L. Prescott, L. Howells of St Davids, B. Quin, B. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I am very Howie of Troon, L. Ramsay of Cartvale, B. disappointed by the Minister’s response. I thank all Hoyle, L. Reid of Cardowan, L. noble Lords who have spoken in the debate—my Hughes of Woodside, L. Richard, L. noble friends Lady Royall, Lord Campbell-Savours, Hunt of Kings Heath, L. Rosser, L. Jones, L. Royall of Blaisdon, B. Lord Beecham, Lady Quin, Lord Grantchester, Lord Jones of Whitchurch, B. Sawyer, L. Hunt of Kings Heath, Lord Hoyle, Lord Clark of Judd, L. Scotland of Asthal, B. Windermere and Lord Prescott, the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, L. Sherlock, B. Cavendish of Furness and Lord Empey, and, of course, Kinnock of Holyhead, B. Simon, V. the Minister. Kirkhill, L. Smith of Basildon, B. Knight of Weymouth, L. Stevenson of Balmacara, L. My noble friend Lord Prescott, as did many other Layard, L. Thornton, B. noble Lords, stated clearly why the Labour Government Lea of Crondall, L. Tunnicliffe, L. [Teller] established the RDAs in 1999, what they began to Liddell of Coatdyke, B. Warwick of Undercliffe, B. tackle, the progress they made and why they should be McDonagh, B. Wheeler, B. kept. The Government have not made the case for the McFall of Alcluith, L. Whitaker, B. McIntosh of Hudnall, B. Whitty, L. RDAs to be abolished. All have outlined why they MacKenzie of Culkein, L. Wigley, L. worked sub-regionally. McKenzie of Luton, L. Wilkins, B. I am happy to withdraw my amendment in favour Massey of Darwen, B. Winston, L. of the amendment of my noble friend Lady Royall. In Maxton, L. Wood of Anfield, L. doing so, I shall leave it to my noble friend to decide whether she wishes to test the opinion of the House. NOT CONTENTS Amendment 16 withdrawn. Addington, L. Gardiner of Kimble, L. Alderdice, L. Gardner of Parkes, B. Anelay of St Johns, B. [Teller] Garel-Jones, L. Amendment 16A Arran, E. Geddes, L. Moved by Baroness Royall of Blaisdon Astor of Hever, L. German, L. Attlee, E. Glendonbrook, L. 16A: Schedule 1, page 16, leave out lines 12 to 19 Barker, B. Glentoran, L. Bates, L. Goodlad, L. Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I am grateful Benjamin, B. Goschen, V. to the Minister for his reply and for his offer to keep us Berridge, B. Grade of Yarmouth, L. informed of the consultations as they go on. The Bew, L. Hamwee, B. Minister was right to say that it is a political decision Black of Brentwood, L. Harris of Peckham, L. that has been taken by this Government. We believe Blencathra, L. Henley, L. that this is fundamentally the wrong decision. We Boswell of Aynho, L. Heyhoe Flint, B. Bottomley of Nettlestone, B. Higgins, L. believe that it is wrong for the economic growth of our Bradshaw, L. Hill of Oareford, L. regions and it is wrong for the economic well-being of Bridgeman, V. Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, our country. Therefore I wish to test the opinion of the Brinton, B. L. House. Brougham and Vaux, L. Home, E. Browning, B. Hooper, B. 10.05 pm Burnett, L. Howard of Rising, L. Byford, B. Howe, E. Division on Amendment 16A Cathcart, E. Howell of Guildford, L. Cavendish of Furness, L. Hunt of Wirral, L. Contents 87; Not-Contents 151. Chadlington, L. Hussein-Ece, B. Chalker of Wallasey, B. James of Blackheath, L. Amendment 16A disagreed. Chester, Bp. Jenkin of Kennington, B. Division No. 3 Chidgey, L. Jenkin of Roding, L. Colwyn, L. Jolly, B. CONTENTS Cormack, L. Jones of Cheltenham, L. Adams of Craigielea, B. Davies of Coity, L. Crickhowell, L. Jopling, L. Crisp, L. Kirkwood of Kirkhope, L. Andrews, B. Davies of Oldham, L. De Mauley, L. Kramer, B. Armstrong of Hill Top, B. Davies of Stamford, L. Dixon-Smith, L. Lexden, L. Bach, L. Dixon, L. Doocey, B. Lingfield, L. Bassam of Brighton, L. D’Souza, B. Eccles, V. Liverpool, E. [Teller] Dubs, L. Eccles of Moulton, B. Loomba, L. Beecham, L. Eatwell, L. Edmiston, L. Lucas, L. Berkeley, L. Elystan-Morgan, L. Empey, L. Lyell, L. Bilston, L. Falconer of Thoroton, L. Faulks, L. MacGregor of Pulham Brookman, L. Farrington of Ribbleton, B. Feldman of Elstree, L. Market, L. Browne of Belmont, L. Faulkner of Worcester, L. Fellowes of West Stafford, L. Mackay of Clashfern, L. Campbell-Savours, L. Foster of Bishop Auckland, L. Fink, L. MacLaurin of Knebworth, L. Clancarty, E. Gale, B. Fookes, B. McNally, L. Clark of Windermere, L. Golding, B. Framlingham, L. Magan of Castletown, L. Collins of Highbury, L. Grantchester, L. Freud, L. Maples, L. Crawley, B. Grey-Thompson, B. Garden of Frognal, B. Marland, L. 831 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 832

Marlesford, L. Selborne, E. reviewed and updated as things change, could command Mayhew of Twysden, L. Selkirk of Douglas, L. support across the House if handled properly and Miller of Chilthorne Domer, Shaw of Northstead, L. built on what has been achieved in recent years. B. Sheikh, L. Montrose, D. Shrewsbury, E. I will leave it there; I do not wish to detain the Morris of Bolton, B. Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller] House longer than necessary. I am eager to hear from Naseby, L. Skelmersdale, L. the Minister. Neville-Jones, B. Spicer, L. Newby, L. Stedman-Scott, B. Newlove, B. Stowell of Beeston, B. Noakes, B. Strathclyde, L. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- Northbrook, L. Taverne, L. Jones): My Lords, the amendment removes the Security Northover, B. Taylor of Holbeach, L. Industry Authority from the list of public bodies that Norton of Louth, L. Tebbit, L. the Minister can abolish by secondary legislation. Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L. Teverson, L. Some noble Lords may wonder why the Government O’Cathain, B. Thomas of Gresford, L. Oppenheim-Barnes, B. True, L. are supporting an amendment which is the same as Palmer of Childs Hill, L. Tugendhat, L. one which the Opposition put forward a few weeks Perry of Southwark, B. Tyler of Enfield, B. ago and which we then resisted. If I go into the Popat, L. Verma, B. Government’s reasoning behind our approach to the Rawlings, B. Waddington, L. Bill, it will then become clear why we are now supporting Reay, L. Wallace of Saltaire, L. this amendment. Rennard, L. Wallace of Tankerness, L. Renton of Mount Harry, L. Walmsley, B. First, our willingness to accept the amendment Ribeiro, L. Wasserman, L. does not represent a change of policy; it remains the Roberts of Llandudno, L. Wei, L. Government’s intention to abolish the SIA in its present Rogan, L. Wheatcroft, B. Sassoon, L. Wilcox, B. form. We have, however, decided that this will be best Scott of Needham Market, B. Willis of Knaresborough, L. achieved through a different piece of primary legislation. Seccombe, B. Younger of Leckie, V. As noble Lords know, it was announced on 14 October as part of the public bodies review that the SIA would 10.15 pm no longer be a non-departmental public body and that we would take forward a phased transition to a new regulatory regime. I went through the reasons for that Amendments 17 to 18 not moved. during the Committee debate on 28 February, and I do not intend to detain the House at this hour by Amendment 19 going over that ground again. I am sure that noble Lords will welcome that. Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Home Office Ministers asked the SIA last October 19: Schedule 1, page 16, line 20, leave out “Security Industry to consult key stakeholders, including the industry, Authority.” and to produce a detailed plan of how the phased transition to the new regulatory regime could be achieved. Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I am delighted As the House will know, the chair of the SIA, the that the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, has noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and its chief executive, come in behind an amendment that I put down. I hope Bill Butler, presented their plan to the department on that this is one of many occasions when the noble 16 February and there has been a subsequent meeting Lord will come in behind amendments that I put with the Home Secretary on 14 March, so there has down in this House. been close dialogue between the SIA and the department. I am very interested to hear from the Minister—the The key points that emerge from the proposals are noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones—why the Government that: regulation will shift from licensing individuals to have decided to join the Opposition on this amendment. registering businesses, which will have to meet a Both at Second Reading and in Committee, I raised comprehensive set of conditions set by the new regulator; concerns that there are real risks of allowing criminality the regulation of individuals will become the responsibility to return to an industry that has cleaned up its act of registered businesses, which is an important point; dramatically in recent years. I have always felt it to be the new regulator will have the power to impose sanctions, reassuring when you go into a venue and meet security including removing the right to trade in the private personnel with credentials on display that show that security industry on the part of businesses that fail to the individual has reached a certain standard, had a comply with the conditions that it sets for registration; Criminal Records Bureau check and is deemed to be a and the Government’s aim is for the new regulatory fit and proper person to undertake this kind of work. regime to be in place by the end of 2013, using a Maybe the Minister will tell us that the Government phased approach to ensure a smooth transition. are prepared to delete this body from the Bill, but will We have decided to support the amendment to work behind the scenes and bring something back in remove the SIA from the Bill because Clause 1 includes the future. If that happens, I am sure that this House only powers to abolish bodies and transfer functions will give it the line-by-line scrutiny it deserves. It is via secondary legislation. It does not include powers important to ensure that we take the industry with us; to set up new regulatory bodies, and it has become the industry does not want to see the criminals return. clear that primary legislation will be required to establish Security checks on individuals who want to join the a successor self-regulatory body that will have the industry remain. A common approach to a problem power to impose sanctions on businesses that do not that has largely been solved, but may need to be comply with set standards. If I understood the noble 833 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 834

Lord’s point, he attaches importance to the idea that regulation of individuals working within the security the regulatory body should have teeth. The Government industry should become the responsibility of the security agree—in other words, it must have powers that will businesses themselves. That is precisely why primary enable it to enforce sanctions against companies that legislation was introduced in the first place. The industry breach standards. was not properly investigating or in charge of the We have therefore taken the opportunity to review, individuals who were working in the industry and this and decided that references to the SIA should be led to endangering some of the people who depended removed from the Bill. The same primary legislative on the security industry—for example, the young in vehicle that will establish the successor regulatory nightclubs. body will also be used to abolish the SIA, so we will The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, raised a question put it all in another Bill. I am sure that noble Lords about prisoners in the last debate on the subject. At will understand that I cannot give further detail on the moment where prisoners are moved from prison to that legislation today, except to say that we will bring it prison, the wherewithal to do it is provided by the forward when parliamentary time allows. security industry. That is an extremely important part A final point: the Home Secretary has also written of the industry that needs to be properly regulated. to Ministers in the Scottish Government and in the Will the Government consult with the Ministry of Department of Justice in Northern Ireland to advise Justice and everybody else who has anything to do them of this amendment. Regulation of the private with the movement of prisoners and the wider care of security industry in their nations is a policy decision prisoners? As I understand it, people who work within for the devolved Administrations to make. We are the security industry are sometimes employed within working with them to ensure that transitional and private prisons. It does not seem a sensible move or subsequent arrangements meet the needs of all UK good idea to reintroduce some form of self-regulation Administrations. rather than to have proper regulation for an industry Accepting the amendment does not constitute a that is extremely important for the well-being of our change in policy; it is a change to the vehicle that the society. Government will use to deliver that policy. There is wide agreement between the Government and what I 10.30 pm understand to be the points made on the opposition Benches regarding the substance. It is still the Baroness Neville-Jones: My Lords, I am slightly Government’s intention to abolish the existing body puzzled that the noble Baroness says that the opposition and replace it with another body for the private security Benches do not agree with the approach that I have industry that is self-regulatory. I therefore support the just outlined. Before the Government came to office, amendment. the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, herself was moving towards a more self-regulatory regime. She has seen Baroness Royall of Blaisdon: My Lords, I apologise the Home Secretary and other Ministers and is working that I did not stand up before. As the name of the with the Government on a transitional regime to a noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is on the amendment, I new body. I find it difficult to see why there should be wanted to see what the noble Baroness was going to such a problem for the opposition Benches. say in response before I could intervene. I have a On the question of the attitude of the police, we are couple of questions further to her speech. consulting ACPO, which supports the approach. The The Minister suggested that we are thinking very police attach importance to effective regulation. That much along the same lines; I think that that was what is precisely why I made my third point, in relation to she said towards the end of her speech. Let me be clear the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, that we do not agree with the Government about the in the previous debate. This body will have power to future of the SIA because we believe that it is essentially impose sanctions on businesses that do not comply doing a good job as it is. As we understand it, the with set standards. There will be set standards in a industry itself is content with the present situation and number of areas. Certainly, the whole question of willing to pay for the present system. custody will be one of those areas of set standards. I I return to two issues that were raised in the debate have to say that the differences are more synthetic than that we had in Committee. One was the attitude of the real. I hope that in due course, when we introduce and police. As all noble Lords will know, when we brought come to debate the legislation—I am not, unfortunately, forward the primary legislation, one of the main bodies able to give the noble Baroness a date for that because in favour of primary legislation being introduced were it depends on the crush of parliamentary business—there the police themselves, who felt that the security industry will be cross-party agreement. when unregulated was rather a dangerous industry, not just for the people working in the industry themselves Lord Whitty: My Lords, my name is also on this but also for the wider society. It was as a means of amendment. Indeed, it was my amendment in Committee protecting wider society that the legislation was introduced. to which the noble Baroness responded. The Government, I will be grateful if the noble Baroness can tell us understandably, are a little diffident towards the whether or not a consultation with the police and Opposition tonight. The fact is that there has been, if other concerned bodies will take place before a Bill is not quite a U-turn, definitely a bit of a C-turn on introduced. I will also be grateful if she can tell the this—quite rightly, too. Under the Bill as printed, the House when a Bill is likely to be introduced. One of Government were going to abolish this body. They the issues that concerns these Benches is the fact that, were not going to substitute statutorily backed self- in future, it is hoped by the Government that the regulation. What existed in the SIA was going disappear. 835 Public Bodies Bill [HL][LORDS] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 836

[LORD WHITTY] temptation—given that we have all agreed that it is The regulation of the industry and the personnel right that these bodies should be reviewed on a regular within it, and the standards and the great improvement basis—to underestimate the contribution of the people in those standards that we have seen since the SIA was who have worked for them or sat on their boards. It is set up, could have been seriously endangered. right for me to invite the Minister—who has, if I may Just before the previous vote, the noble Lord, Lord say so, expertly steered the Bill through your Lordships’ Taylor, met a certain degree of scepticism from these House—to reflect on the importance of the tone with Benches when he said that the Government were a which we debate these organisations. listening Government. At least on this amendment the I say that because, in relation more generally to Government have listened to some degree. debates in your Lordships’ House, in the other place and among the public on public services, there has Baroness Rawlings: My Lords, on Report there is been an unfortunate tendency to speak in a pejorative time for a noble Lord to ask just one question after the way about back-office functions. That is a matter for Minister has spoken. regret. It is not sensible to suggest, for instance, that Lord Whitty: My Lords, the Minister was not replying only a policeman is doing a good thing while someone to the debate. The amendment was moved by my who works for the police force in a back office is not. noble friend Lord Kennedy. I put my name to it, as did That is not a sensible way forward. Back-office staff the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, so I think I am in order. are being made redundant from police services, while bureaucratic tasks have to be undertaken by front-line The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux): I police officers. That demonstrates some of the perverse remind the noble Lord that the Companion says: incentives of taking a black-and-white approach. “Only the mover of an amendment … speaks after the minister I mention that because, as we close our first day on … except for short questions … or where the minister speaks early to assist the House”. Report, we have an opportunity to reflect on the fact The noble Lord should have spoken before the Minister. that many of these organisations will go out of business. He is out of order, I am afraid. The functions of some will be transferred to another body while the functions of others will come to a Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I thank the close. It is important to send a message out to the Minister for her response to my amendment. As I have people who have worked in these bodies that we do said on several occasions, whatever happens we need not underestimate the contribution that they have to ensure that criminality does not return to the industry made. The regular review that is taking place should and that the public are able to remain confident that be sensible, but in no way should it be taken as a the people employed in the industry are fit and proper. criticism of the work that is done by thousands of The overwhelming majority of the industry acts people up and down the country. responsibly and supports retention of the SIA. If the Government bring forward a Bill for consideration, it will be important to give it detailed line-by-line scrutiny. Lord Taylor of Holbeach: My Lords, I happily In particular, I concur with the comments of my noble associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, friends Lady Royall and Lord Whitty. Lord Hunt, because we all share his sentiment. The more you become involved in this process, the more Amendment 19 agreed. you realise that you are dealing with bodies that in many cases are performing important tasks and are Amendment 20 staffed by people with a due sense of purpose and Moved by Lord Kennedy of Southwark public service. 20: Schedule 1, page 16, line 21, leave out “Valuation Tribunal What is interesting about the amendment—I am Service.” grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy of Southwark, for giving us a chance to talk about it—is that in many Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, Amendment ways it brings continuity between the previous 20 would remove the Valuation Tribunal Service from Government’s proposals in the area of tribunals and the Schedule. I am not quite clear about what the our own. As will be clear from my explanation of why Government propose here. I could be persuaded to the Valuation Tribunal Service is in Schedule 1, noble withdraw my amendment and not divide the House, Lords will recognise that the foundations for this but I need quite a detailed response from the Minister decision were laid by the legislation of the previous on what he is proposing. I look forward to his response Government. and hope I will not have to divide the House. I beg to The Valuation Tribunal Service is a non-departmental move. public body that provides administrative support and Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, I am grateful all the services required by the Valuation Tribunal for to my noble friend for moving the amendment and for England, which hears appeals on council tax and allowing us to debate for a few minutes the Valuation business rates—in other words, national non-domestic Tribunal Service. It is one of a number of bodies rates. which are either listed or not listed in the Bill and Taken together, the Valuation Tribunal for England whose work is not particularly well known by the and the Valuation Tribunal Service—I will use the general public. However, these are bodies that have acronyms from now on—provide an independent appeals played an important role in terms of the good order of service for business rate or council tax payers who society. As we have debated the 150 or so bodies under wish to challenge either the basis on which the banding consideration, there has been a tendency and or valuation of their property has been calculated, or 837 Public Bodies Bill [HL][23 MARCH 2011] Public Bodies Bill [HL] 838 their liability to pay business rates or council tax. In VTE is transferred and the VTE is abolished, the VTS the Government’s recent announcement about the will effectively cease to have any purpose and powers. future of arm’s-length bodies, both the VTS and the Therefore, the Government’s intention is that, in tandem VTE were identified as bodies that could be abolished. with the transfer of the VTE, the parallel administrative However, I stress that the Government recognise that functions provided by the Valuation Tribunal Service the jurisdiction that the VTE exercises, and the functions should also transfer at the same time to Her Majesty’s undertaken by the VTS, are still necessary—the noble Courts and Tribunals Service, an executive agency of Lord, Lord Hunt, is correct—and plan to transfer the Ministry of Justice that is shortly to be established them so that they become part of the unified structure following a merger between Her Majesty’s Courts for tribunals, thus ensuring that the independence of Service and the Tribunals Service. the appeals process for business rates and council tax The functions of the VTS, which are essentially to will be maintained. The achievement of these transfers provide all administrative support for the operation of would be a further step in the achievement of the the VTE, including staff, accommodation and IT, long-standing policy introduced by the previous would be absorbed into the tribunal service to sit Government, following the 2000 Leggatt report, Tribunals alongside the administrative support for all jurisdictions for Users: One System, One Service, which this within the First-tier Tribunal and Upper Tribunal. Government are continuing. The aim is to bring central Once these functions had been transferred, there would government-sponsored tribunals in England and Wales be no further need for the VTS to remain in existence under a single umbrella organisation. as a separate body and it could then be formally The Government’s proposal is that the jurisdiction abolished. However, as the VTS was established under of the VTE and the functions of the VTS should statute—in the Local Government Act, to be precise—new transfer respectively to the First-tier Tribunal and Her powers would be required to achieve both the transfer Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service. It is important of the VTS’s functions and its subsequent abolition. that noble Lords should note that the planned transfers The power set out in Clause 1 would allow an order to are fully supported by both the chairman of the VTS, be laid to achieve this transfer, and that is why the VTS Anne Galbraith, and the president of the VTE, Professor is included in Schedule 1. Graham Zellick. The jurisdiction of the Valuation Planning for the transfer of both jurisdiction and Tribunal for England will be transferred to the soon- administrative functions is in its very early stages but, to-be-created Land, Property and Housing Chamber—the following the transfer, we confidently expect the realisation Land Chamber—of the First-tier Tribunal, which was of economies of scale, operating efficiencies and added formally established under the Tribunals, Courts and service improvements, which the unified tribunals system Enforcement Act 2007. Powers in the 2007 Act would was established to provide. The noble Lord will, I allow the formal transfer of the VTE’s jurisdiction to hope, recognise and be reassured that the Government’s the First-tier Tribunal, and the subsequent abolition proposals will maintain and sustain the independence of the VTE as a separately constituted tribunal. Since of the appeals process for council tax and business the 2007 Act powers are already available to achieve rates, and that they are a continuation of the policy this, the Government do not need—and nor do they pursued by the previous Government. Therefore, I intend to seek—its abolition through the powers in the hope that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment. Bill. I trust that noble Lords will be comforted to learn that the jurisdictional independence currently enjoyed Lord Kennedy of Southwark: My Lords, I thank the by the VTE will continue, following the transfer of Minister for his response and I also thank my noble that jurisdiction to the First-tier Tribunal. friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath for his comments. I Noble Lords will also wish to be made aware that should have mentioned that earlier in my local government the transfer will bring added opportunities. Members career, in the 1980s, I was the deputy chair of the who would formerly have been in separate tribunals London South East Valuation Tribunal. I am persuaded will be able, following the transfer, to sit on tribunals in by the Minister’s reply and beg leave to withdraw the all jurisdictions exercised within the First-tier Tribunal amendment. Land Chamber. Such arrangements are already in place elsewhere and have brought significant operational Amendment 20 withdrawn. and jurisdictional advantages. Consideration on Report adjourned. I turn to the Valuation Tribunal Service that is the subject of the amendment. If the jurisdiction of the House adjourned at 10.46 pm.

GC 101 Arrangement of Business[23 MARCH 2011] Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201 GC 102

in kind from public services. That is a statement that Grand Committee was true after the Budget and spending round as of last year, which encompassed the measures we are Wednesday, 23 March 2011. talking about, but of course it remains true and confirmed in the numbers that came out with the Budget today. Arrangement of Business The regulations and orders before the Committee Announcement put into effect a number of reforms to tax credits, announced in the June 2010 Budget and the spending 3.45 pm review. These changes will ensure that we tackle the deficit in a way that is fair and ensures that tax credits The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness are targeted at those who need them most. Tax credit Morris of Bolton): My Lords, before the Minister elements which were previously uprated by the retail moves that the first statutory instrument be considered, prices index will be uprated this year by the consumer I remind noble Lords that in the case of each statutory prices index, apart from the basic and 30-hour elements instrument the Motion before the Committee will be of working tax credit, which will be frozen. The rate of that the Committee do consider the statutory instrument guardian’s allowance will also be uprated by CPI. in question. I should perhaps make it clear that the However, significant above-indexation increases to the Motions to approve the statutory instruments will be child tax credit will help those households with children. moved in the Chamber in the usual way. If there is a Division in the House the Committee will adjourn for Under the current system, tax credits are available 10 minutes. to families earning up to £58,000. If households have an increase in income up to £25,000 in a year, they can earn up to £83,000 and still benefit from tax credits. Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201 This means that people in the top income decile are Considered in Grand Committee eligible, which is unjustifiable within the current economic climate. Reforms to tax credits included within these 3.45 pm regulations and orders mean that support for higher income households will be reduced by increasing the Moved By Lord Sassoon rate at which tax credits are withdrawn, while reducing That the Grand Committee do report to the the threshold at which tax credits are paid. Households House that it has considered the Tax Credits Up-rating will also no longer experience an increase in household Regulations 2011. income of up to £25,000 without their tax credit eligibility changing. Under the current system, around Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Joint nine out of 10 families with children are eligible for Committee on Statutory Instruments. tax credits. Once the tax credit changes have been introduced in April this year, seven out of 10 families The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord will still be eligible for tax credits. Sassoon): My Lords, I shall also speak to the draft Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating Order 2011, and the Spending on tax credits has increased from £18 billion draft Guardian’s Allowance (Northern Ireland) Up-rating in 2003-04 to an estimated £30 billion in 2010-11. The Order 2011. In my view, the regulations and orders are system of tax credits under the previous Government compatible with the European Convention on Human was not only unsustainable in fiscal terms; it was also Rights. unrealistic in terms of meeting its stated policy objectives. From 2004, progress on relative poverty stalled. However, The Government inherited an exceptional fiscal the previous Government continued to pump money challenge. It is important to sketch out the background into the tax credit system. They spent more than to these important statutory instruments and to put £150 billion on tax credits since 2003. them into proper context. The state is borrowing one pound in every four that it spends, and just paying the Although a large proportion of tax credit spending interest on the nation’s debt costs £43 billion—around was directed at children, the Institute for Fiscal Studies £120 million a day. The unprecedented scale of the has estimated that meeting the 2020 child poverty deficit has meant that the Government had to make target would require an extra £19 billion of welfare tough choices in the June 2010 Budget and in the transfers. The previous Government had a static view spending review about how taxpayers’ money is allocated. of poverty, believing that it could be reduced, or even We believe that fairness starts by taking the right eradicated, by directing money at it. The way that decisions to tackle the deficit so that future generations child poverty is currently measured means that, perversely, are not burdened with unsustainable debts, meaning reducing the income tax paid by millions of lower higher taxes and diminished public services. Tackling earners, or providing additional support to low-income the deficit in a fair and responsible way means that pensioners, could push up the poverty line. This would those that can contribute do and those who are less increase the number of children calculated as being in able to do so are supported. Analysis shows that after poverty. We want to take a long-term, strategic view to combining the impact of tax, tax credit and benefit tackling poverty, which is about more than just welfare and public service spending changes announced by transfers. This is not about moving families and children this Government, the top 20 per cent of households above an arbitrary line—where one day they are in will make the greatest contribution towards reducing poverty and the next they are not—but is about the deficit as a percentage of their income and benefits transforming their life chances. GC 103 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201[LORDS] Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201 GC 104

[LORD SASSOON] sense. Even with the changes, some seven families out The Prime Minister asked Frank Field and Graham of 10 will continue to get tax credits. That certainly Allen to undertake reviews on poverty and life chances. encompasses all those who could even vaguely be said Findings from both reviews have fed into the child to be in need. poverty strategy, which will be published shortly. While awaiting the conclusions of these reviews, the Government The situation we now find ourselves in at this end of have used some of the savings from withdrawing child the income scale was exemplified to me by a colleague benefit from families with a higher rate taxpayer to in another place yesterday, who was telling me that she fund significant above-indexation increases in the child had had a letter from a constituent grumbling that the tax credit over the next two years. This means that the changes to tax credits and child benefit meant that she child tax credit will increase by £255 in 2011, benefiting and her family would no longer be able to have their 2.4 million of the poorest families. This increase is second foreign holiday that year, and asking what the better targeted at low-income families and will ensure MP was going to do about it. I suspect she got a fairly that the spending review will have no measurable shirty response, but many people at upper income impact on child poverty in the next two years. levels have been regarding tax credits and child benefit as not necessary for the ordinary running of the As well as targeting financial support at low-income family but for luxuries, so to see that curtailed in the households, the spending review introduced a new overall scheme is very welcome. fairness premium, which will fundamentally change the prospects of the poorest children by offering real Slightly down the track comes the really welcome opportunities to raise them out of poverty for the long introduction of the universal credit. Just as, at the top term. The fairness premium is worth over £7.2 billion end, people are getting some benefits who, frankly, do over the spending review period and will include a not need them for the good functioning of their families, £2.5 billion premium to support the educational at the bottom end there are still huge disincentives development of the poorest pupils. It also protects around work and huge anger among people who are cash funding for Sure Start to support the poorest in trying to make a living and do the right thing. early years and at every stage of their education. At the recent Lib Dem conference in Sheffield I Despite the last Government’s spending on tax went to get my papers from a kiosk in the shopping credits, working-age poverty actually increased under centre in the centre of Sheffield, and the young woman Labour, as there are now more working-age adults in behind the kiosk asked rather aggressively what I was poverty than there were in 1997. The current welfare doing there. I said very timorously that I was at the state too often traps people in dependency. Almost Lib Dem conference. She said she was a Labour voter. 2 million children are living in workless households. I was prepared for a tirade about how flinty hearted The spending review announced radical plans to reform we were and I got a tirade, but the tirade I got related the welfare state. The new universal credit, which will to the fact that because she was a single mum with two be introduced over two Parliaments, will replace the young children she could only work part-time and current complex system of means-tested working-age earn only £6,000 a year and her sister, who was 28 and benefits with a single, streamlined payment. The universal had never done a day’s work in her life, was getting credit, which will cut through the complexity of the more from the state. At this point her colleague in the existing benefits system, will ensure that work pays. kiosk joined in. They were so intent on telling me In that context, I commend these regulations and about this injustice in the system that everybody else orders to the Committee. who was trying just to buy a paper had to come up in a very shamefaced way so as not to interrupt this flow of Lord Newby: My Lords, in the context of the overall invective, which was being directed at politicians generally. fiscal position in which we find ourselves, it is not I was able to tell her that the universal benefit was on surprising that we are having to make some pretty its way and thereafter life would look somewhat fairer unpalatable changes to some tax credits. As the Minister from her perspective. has said, expenditure on tax credits rose in cash terms by two-thirds over the seven years from 2003. In the I have two questions for the Minister around these current environment, that is simply unsustainable. proposals today. The first relates to what he said about Sure Start. There has been an awful lot of noise about Although there are some aspects of the changes Sure Start. He said that the Government are protecting that we find quite difficult—for example, reducing the the cash funding for Sure Start. I know that every proportion of reclaimable childcare is not something Liberal Democrat council is able to maintain Sure that we would have done willingly—other elements are Start and I know some councils cannot. Can the long overdue. It is crazy that people earning £50,000 Minister tell me why, if the Government are protecting or £60,000 or even £70,000 have been able to claim an the cash funding for Sure Start, some councils might element of child tax credit. Of course, the concept that be choosing to cut it? parents find themselves in financial stress when they have young children is not new; it is dealt with at great Secondly, the whole area of child poverty is to be length in Malthus’s great essay on population, where the subject, I believe, of a child poverty strategy document he talks about how poverty comes to young families at due for publication shortly. Under the terms of the the point when they have children. However, that was Child Poverty Act it is due to be produced by the end talking about an era in which most people were poor of March. It is now almost the end of March and I for the whole of their lives. That simply does not exist would like the Minister’s assurance that that document today. A circumstance in which nine out of 10 families will, indeed, be winging its way to us over the next few were eligible for tax credit does not really have any days. GC 105 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201[23 MARCH 2011] Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201 GC 106

Lord Davies of Oldham: My Lords, I had thought that exercise, debating the 2011 Budget while we are that the problems with these statutory instruments dealing with instruments that derive from last year’s would be that our contributions might be not so much Budget. after the Lord Mayor’s Show as coincident with it, as the Budget Statement was made today. The other Within the terms of the instrument, I accept some place and all the media are concentrating on the 2011 aspects of the Government’s attention to the problems Budget while here we are, engaging in a debate on that beset the less well-off in our society. I appreciate instruments that relate to last year’s decisions. I therefore the fact that there is an above-indexation increase in assumed that the Minister would stay fairly close to the child tax credit of £180 for next year and a little the technicalities of the instruments and that we were less the year after for those of very limited means. I unlikely to engage in a substantial debate on the respect the fact that there is some attention to the economy, but no such luck. particular problems of those who are least well off in our society. I do not accept the Government’s position, The Minister, not content with successive Thursday supported by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, on child debates that string out ahead ad infinitum and in tax credits. I shall make the obvious point on the which he will regale the House with his perspective on eradication of child poverty: it is a massive target. We the economy, has taken this rather modest measure as all know the projection on how long it takes and how another opportunity to inveigh on those issues which, much it costs but, despite this gesture, the Minister I suppose, pass for coalition home truths about the never makes the slightest reference to the tremendous situation that we are in. Well, if we must engage so be onslaught on child poverty which was the product of it. I had not really come prepared for this but I have policies pursued over the past decade through many one or two obvious rejoinders to the noble Lord’s strategies, the effectiveness of which he is proposing to position ready to hand. I am not quite sure why he is reduce. To make the most obvious point, what we now not prepared to engage in the debate on how far and have enshrined in stone for the future under this how fast, regarding deficit reduction. He presents the Administration is one criterion and one index for how issues in terms of the inevitable: that slash and burn is much uprating will occur. This is an uprating measure. the only response regarding support and the public The RPI, currently at 4.6 per cent, is buried and the contribution. Of course, that is because the British CPI is now confirmed as the rate that will obtain economy is very close to the Greek, the Irish and the across the benefits. It is now 3.1 per cent, or two-thirds Portuguese economy—teetering on the brink of utter of the RPI inflation rate, which many households collapse, with stupendous interest rates and the collapse would regard as a far more accurate definition of the of the known world. That is specific and special pleading. challenges that they face in making ends meet. The noble Lord rarely addresses an economy that is marginally more significant than the German or Irish I appreciate other aspects of the measure. I heard economies by looking at the United States. If he looks the noble Lord, Lord Newby, say that people should at its response to this issue, the question is whether not expect to get tax credits if their income is over a destroying so much of the support given at present certain amount. He can make that case if he wishes. will grievously affect demand. He is therefore stuck He knows the outcry that has occurred as a result of with the fact that the one word he did not mention at the change from £50,000 to £40,000 in the threshold all is that which presently revolves around every for credits. He knows very well that ordinary working conceivable contribution in the other place: namely, families, on whatever income, budget according to growth. The decline in growth predicted by the OECD their expected income and how they run their life. is now confirmed by the figures that the Chancellor Significant government changes in this area cause made in his Statement today. What does the noble distress. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, may regard Lord think that lower growth represents? It means that distress as synthetic. We shall see the response the more people unable to sustain themselves. I heard him nation makes to that significant change in tax credits. lament the fact of working-age poverty. What on earth The guardian’s allowance uprating is a minor aspect does he think will happen to that as unemployment that reflects the fact that a very small number of rates in this country begin rapidly to increase? beneficiaries are covered by these orders in Great We have not yet seen the burden of the cuts but, my Britain and Northern Ireland. We should notice what goodness me, it is quite clear that the nation is already indexation means at a certain level: just minuscule alert. It is not as if this date, 23 March, is not insignificant increases per week are represented by these figures. I in the nation’s awareness of the implication of cuts. In am all too well aware that there are limitations on the three days, on 26 March, a very substantial proportion public purse and that generosity from the Government— of our people will indicate that a Government who go “tax giveaways”, the Chancellor said this morning—were too far, who reduce potential for growth and who not the order of the day. We understand that, and it is massively increase unemployment and promote poverty bound to be the case, but that should not alter the fact can ill afford to parade the idea that there is no other that we should appreciate that a failure by Government way, when in fact other Governments—whose economies to take proper concern for welfare support could be a are at least as significant as ours—are pursuing very very grievous failure indeed. We are moving into a different strategies indeed. However, I did not come position where, without the slightest doubt, a greater here for peroration. I came just to look at the gentle number of our people will be plunged into hardship. terms of this instrument. I thought it somewhat otiose The Government’s response, as evidenced by these to engage today in a debate on government policy statutory instruments, shows that the Government put when our youngers—and, if not our betters, perhaps deficit reduction as their supreme objective, at whatever our more committed—at the other end are involved in cost to our community. GC 107 Tax Credits Up-rating Regulations 201[LORDS] Access to Justice Act 1999 Order 2011 GC 108

Lord Sassoon: My Lords, I am very grateful to councils are allowed, some councils are able to continue noble Lords. As is becoming a pattern here, we have I am not sure why others cannot. I will check the had a small, focused and to-the-point discussion. I am details of that. disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Davies of To conclude, I believe that reforms at the Budget Oldham, did not appreciate my approach this afternoon. and the spending review, of which these are an important On other occasions, when I have gone perhaps to element, have been carried out in a fair and responsible excessive lengths to point out every detail of measures, way. We have ensured that everyone who is able to I did not always seem to be grasping his attention right contribute to the deficit does so, while those with the through, so I thought I would try another attempt and lowest incomes continue to be supported. The critical go for the sunny uplands this afternoon, but it seems test is that, after combining the impact of tax, benefit that that has not worked either. I shall have to try and public services spending review changes, it is the some other approach next time. I do not want to be highest quintile of earners who will make the greatest drawn too much into the big picture because, as the contribution towards reducing the deficit as a percentage noble Lord, Lord Davies, said, we shall have a long of their income and benefits in kind. I commend these debate tomorrow and another one next Thursday. regulations and orders to the Grand Committee. However, I cannot entirely let his remarks go unanswered. Every commentator, from the IMF to the OECD Motion agreed. through to all the domestic commentators, has reiterated the fact that the Government need to stick to the clear deficit reduction plan. To be fair to the noble Lord, he Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating recognises that, as he says that he understands that we Order 2011 cannot give away money through taxes or otherwise. I Considered in Grand Committee welcome his partial recognition of the reality. It is against the background of the situation last year and 4.17 pm the background that still persists that we bring these measures forward. Moved By Lord Sassoon Welfare spending now accounts for one-third of all That the Grand Committee do report to the public spending. As I said in my introduction, spending House that it has considered the Guardian’s Allowance on tax credits has increased from £18 billion in 2003-04 Up-rating Order 2011 to an estimated £30 billion in 2010-11. My noble Relevant documents: 18th Report from the Joint friend Lord Newby made the point that in respect of Committee on Statutory Instruments. what we are discussing this afternoon, it is unsustainable and, in significant respects, unfair. The reforms to tax Motion agreed. credits outlined within these regulations and orders are fair and proportionate. They tackle the deficit in a way that ensures that tax credits are targeted at those Guardian’s Allowance Up-rating who need them most. Again as my noble friend Lord Newby points out, it is in the broader context that the (Northern Ireland) Order 2011 critical move to the universal credit over this and the Considered in Grand Committee next Parliament gets driven forward. 4.17 pm I was grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Oldham, for recognising that we will use some of the Moved By Lord Sassoon savings from withdrawing child benefit from families with a higher-rate taxpayer to increase the child element That the Grand Committee do report to the of the child tax credit. That is important. It is an House that it has considered the Guardian’s Allowance increase of a further £30 above indexation in 2011-12, Up-rating (Northern Ireland) Order 2011. and a further £50 above indexation in 2012-13, in Relevant documents: 18th Report from the Joint addition to the above-indexation increases of £150 in Committee on Statutory Instruments. 2011-12 and £60 in 2012-13 announced in the previous Budget. Motion agreed. While we are on indexation, I hesitate to take the opportunity to give a reminder to the noble Lord, Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Lord Davies, who raised questions about RPI and CPI. As he says, it is correct that RPI is now 4.6 per Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2011 cent. However, the previous Government were intending Considered in Grand Committee to uprate by applying RPI minus 1.5 per cent. Of course, 4.6 per cent less 1.5 per cent takes one back to 4.19 pm 3.1 per cent. So, in practice, there is no difference in these rates between the old and the new policy. Lord McNally: My Lords, these statutory instruments are necessary to support the implementation of the I will get back to my noble friend on his specific Family Procedure Rules 2010, which will come into question about funding for Sure Start because I want force on 6 April 2011. The Family Procedure Rules are to make sure that I have my facts right. I certainly being made as required by the Courts Act 2003, which agree that if, under the flexibility and the money that gives power for new rules to be made for all family GC 109 Access to Justice Act 1999 Order 2011[23 MARCH 2011] Access to Justice Act 1999 Order 2011 GC 110 proceedings. This means that one unified set of procedures provisions from an existing destination of appeals can be applied to all types of family proceedings in all order, so that the routes of appeal in family proceedings types of courts dealing with such cases. The Courts are dealt with in one place. This is in line with our Act provides that the rule-making power is to be policy of simplifying the way in which rules for family exercised with a view to securing that the rules are proceedings are presented. Part 30, “Appeals”, of the both simple and simply expressed. practice direction that supplements the Family Procedure The Ministry of Justice and the Family Procedure Rules sets out all the routes of appeal and the practice Rule Committee—the body established to make the steps that people will need to take, which will provide rules—have developed a set of rules to cover all family considerable assistance to a person who wants to proceedings in the High Court, the county court and appeal against a court’s decision. the family proceedings court. The new rules will bring These orders have already been debated in the other a number of benefits, including modernisation of some place and have been approved. Members were generally language, a single unified code of practice for all supportive of the Family Procedure Rules and approved family courts and, where appropriate, harmonisation these provisions which support the implementation of of the procedure in family proceedings with the provisions those rules. The two statutory instruments are important of the Civil Procedure Rules. In fact, the approach to make it possible for the new Family Procedure followed in the Family Procedure Rules is already Rules to operate as intended, and to ensure that other being applied to adoption proceedings. The Family legislation is properly amended in consequence of the Procedure (Adoption) Rules 2005 used the new approach coming into force of those rules. The rules will bring to support those proceedings. When the new Family considerable benefits to people involved in family Procedure Rules come into force on 6 April 2011, they proceedings. I hope that noble Lords will approve will help fulfil the Government’s intention that the new these two draft orders so that the benefits of the new approach should be extended to all family proceedings. rules can be fully achieved. The two instruments we are considering today are critical to the operation of the new Family Procedure Rules. They ensure that the new rules will operate as Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames: My Lords, we intended, and that other enactments will refer appropriately plainly welcome the move towards uniformity of to those rules. I hope that the Committee will support procedures among the High Court, the county court their approval. I will take each instrument in turn. and the magistrates’ court and the move to a single code of practice and harmonisation where possible, The Family Procedure (Modification of Enactments) although it is not always completely possible, between Order 2011 makes amendments to other legislation in family proceedings and other civil proceedings under consequence of the coming into force of the Family the CPR. I particularly welcome the provisions that Procedure Rules. For example, Article 6(b) of the will give magistrates’ courts the power to stay proceedings order inserts a new subsection (3) into Section 54 of and to make orders for costs in a way that they have the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980. That new subsection not been able to do so in the past. provides: Also of considerable importance is the move to give “In family proceedings a magistrates’ court may stay the magistrates’ courts the power to make an order of whole or part of any proceedings or order either generally or until disclosure against non-parties. The lack of such a a specified date or event.” provision for the magistrates’ courts has been, and is, This gives magistrates’ courts the same power to stay—in capable of giving rise to delay. When witnesses turn effect, halt—proceedings that the High Court and up, the documents are not in court and there has to be county courts already have. As a result, the procedural an adjournment in order for them to be obtained. For rules referring to such stays in the Family Procedure that provision to be effective, it should be borne in Rules can apply to all courts dealing with family mind that the burden is on solicitors and litigants to proceedings. The order also amends various enactments ensure that they use the order and the provision by which currently refer to rules which are to be superseded applying for orders for the production of documents by the Family Procedure Rules 2010. This means that, in good time so that, when matters come for a hearing, from 6 April 2011, those enactments will refer to the all the documents are before the court. 2010 Rules or to specific provisions within them. The destination of appeals order is also extremely The Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of helpful in dividing appeals from the junior judges in Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2011—the the High Court to High Court judges from appeals destination of appeals order, as it is known to its from junior judges in the county courts to county friends—makes various minor amendments to the court judges. However, one further point that I would routes of appeal. It provides that appeals from decisions make, which is a matter for listing officers rather than made by a district judge of a county court will lie to a for the legislation, is that those of us who practise in judge of that court and that appeals from decisions family proceedings will well know that we have extremely made by a district judge of the High Court, a district experienced district judges at both levels, but we also judge of the principal registry of the Family Division have a number of rather less experienced deputy High or a costs judge will lie to a judge of the High Court. It Court judges and deputy county circuit judges sitting puts in place provisions in existing rules regarding the as circuit judges. It is a matter of importance that we destination of appeals from a district judge which do not list appeals from very experienced district would otherwise be lost as those rules are replaced by judges before very much less experienced deputies at the Family Procedure Rules. The new destination of the senior level. That is not a point for the order, but it appeals order consolidates these provisions with the is a point of some importance in practice. GC 111 Access to Justice Act 1999 Order 2011[LORDS] Access to Justice Act 1999 Order 2011 GC 112

Lord Jones: My Lords, I support the instruments Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank noble Lords who wholeheartedly. I thank the Minister for his succinct have spoken in the debate and I congratulate the introduction, but I have several queries. Minister for the succinct way in which he put these Paragraph 4, “Legislative Context”, of the helpful orders. It is not always easy to put orders before the Explanatory Memorandum to the Access to Justice Committee so succinctly, but he has managed it with Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) great élan this afternoon. It is very good to have the Order 2011 states: noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, with “appeals in non-adoption cases from the decisions of a district his experience of the family courts, joining in the judge of the High Court and from a district judge of a county debate even on fairly uncontested orders. His experience court would be to the Court of Appeal”. will be very valuable to the House. I am also grateful Is the Minister able to define these differences? Is there to my noble friend Lord Jones for his staunch defence a district judge of a magistrates’ court that would be of the magistracy and the detailed questions that he separate from those instances on which I have asked asked about the orders. Let me say straight away that for clarification? we do not oppose the orders at all; indeed, they seem Paragraph 8, “Consultation outcome”, of the to demand support and to make sense. As I understand Explanatory Memorandum states: it, they had general support from the other place and from the outside world. “A total of 45 responses were received to this consultation”. I thought this query worthy of being raised because, The whole area of family law policy is being examined when one considers the vast number of magistrates’ by the Norgrove committee as we speak, of course. We courts, 45 seems rather a small number. In the spirit of began that in government and the present Government debate, one is perhaps entitled to query and to seek have wisely carried it on. It is an important committee; reassurance that the consultation process has been we look forward very much to its report and the widespread, comprehensive and effective. I presume Government’s decisions on that report. Some of us that, of those 45 responses, the Magistrates’ Association feel that our family law needs to be brought up to of England and Wales put in its views and was consulted. present times and that many changes could usefully be It is reasonable to ask what form of consultation made, but that is not the issue for today. These orders existed with that very distinguished body. Included in deal with procedure and rules and are a vital and the 45 responses, is it reasonable to assume that the much respected part of our legal system, which is association for magistrates’ clerks and executives— widely—and rightly—admired elsewhere. Our procedures whatever name it now has—made a major submission? and rules must be known, exact and kept up to date; I would be surprised if it did not. Perhaps answers can these orders certainly do that. given in these proceedings. There is an interesting argument around family proceedings courts in the magistrates’ courts. I understand 4.30 pm that the orders give the equivalent power to those The Minister is distinguished and is of a senior courts as they do to the county court and the High rank so, given that these instruments deal with magistrates’ Court. That is no doubt a good thing, but will the courts, let me take this opportunity to ask him: is the more serious cases still go to either the county court magistracy secure? What future does he see for it? or, if they are even more serious, the High Court? I am There have been many court closures and magistrates’ sure that it is still the position; it ought to be, and I courts have been closing for years now. In Wales, it is would not want any change to it. getting harder to afford transport to the remaining My query is about Article 38 in the Family Procedure courts. This is a worthy question in consideration of (Modification of Enactments) Order. This is not a these instruments. I would not want to embarrass him trick question, and the noble Lord is welcome to by asking how many magistrates’ courts have been answer at his leisure if he wants. The Explanatory closed throughout England and Wales, unless he can Note states that: speedily provide that answer. Given the many scheduled “The amendment removes the reference to the exercise of the closures of magistrates’ courts, in this debate it is power to transfer where there is a real risk that a party to relevant to ask whether we shall have the means to proceedings may lack mental capacity within the meaning of the facilitate what these instruments are designed to facilitate. Mental Capacity Act 2005 as the FPR now make provision (in Part 15) for protected parties in relation to all three levels of court There has been an increase in the number of district including the magistrates’ courts”. judges who sit in magistrates’ courts. I do not know Do I take it that, where that issue has arisen until now, the percentage of the increases or the numbers, but the family proceedings court has not been seen fit to against that fact I ask: does that development of be an appropriate venue or forum for those cases? giving more work to district judges presage fewer Obviously, the cases are made more difficult if someone justices of the peace? Is there a downgrading of the lacks mental capacity within the meaning of the Act. justice of the peace in the system of law which the Is it really appropriate that those cases be heard in the Minister heads, administers and, I presume, greatly family proceedings court? respects? Does he agree that magistrates’ courts do a splendid job? Does he agree that three people of Apart from that, we support the orders and are consequence and three people of the local community grateful to the Minister. are well qualified to dispense local justice? Such people have dispensed such justice for centuries and, in facilitating Lord McNally: My Lords, the House is extremely these instruments, it would be rather nice if the Minister generous in its comments about my command of the could give some reassurance that he convincingly backs subject. I am not a lawyer, so I feel like a lion in a den magistrates’ courts. of Daniels when I look round and see the contributors. GC 113 Access to Justice Act 1999 Order 2011[23 MARCH 2011] Data Protection Order 2011 GC 114

I am grateful for the comment of the noble Lord, Lord order. I have taken note of the concern that the noble Bach, about the Norgrove review. We hope that Lord, Lord Bach, raised, which I hope is covered by Mr Norgrove will give an interim report in March and that assurance about complex cases. his final report in the autumn. I agree with the noble I hope that my response has covered the points that Lord that it will be a useful opportunity to review were raised during the debate—if it does not, perhaps family law. colleagues would remind me. Like others who have I also agree that we will be well aided in that review spoken, I think that the order provides for a welcome by the presence of my noble friend Lord Marks, who consolidation of the courts and a welcome increase in has already made his impact both in the Chamber and responsibility for the magistrates’ courts, and I hope here in the Moses Room. His contribution today that, as in the other place, we can adopt these measures. might be better read by the practitioners than by the House, in that he said that due notice for documents Motion agreed. required would speed up and simplify processes. In looking at our criminal justice system over the last 10 months in my limited experience, I have frequently Family Procedure (Modification of been amazed at how easy it is to disrupt the smooth Enactments) Order 2011 running of the system. I hope that we can make the Considered in Grand Committee system work more efficiently. I am sure that his fellow practitioners will duly note his opinion about the 4.46 pm value of the experienced district judges compared with others. Moved By Lord McNally The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked whether the That the Grand Committee do report to the destination of appeals order will apply to appeals House that it has considered the Family Procedure from district judge magistrates’ courts, and whether (Modification of Enactments) Order 2011. magistrates’ courts have been consulted. The draft Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Joint order relates to family proceedings in the High Court Committee on Statutory Instruments and county court only and does not apply to magistrates’ courts. On the wider issue that he raised, both the Magistrates’ Association and the magistrates’ clerks Motion agreed. body responded to the consultation and were fully consulted. The draft destination of appeals order applies Data Protection (Subject Access to all family proceedings, including adoption proceeding, and revokes the 2005 destination of appeals order. If Modification) (Social Work) (Amendment) that does not cover the points raised, I will gladly find Order 2011 out more. Considered in Grand Committee The noble Lord, Lord Jones, widened his remarks a little more to ask about the magistracy. That gives me 4.46 pm an opportunity to say that we have carried out a Moved By Lord McNally rationalisation of the number of magistrates’ courts. I believe that we have retained the essential strength of That the Grand Committee do report to the House magistrates’ courts and of the magistracy, which is that it has considered the Data Protection (Subject their localism. This is the 650th anniversary of the Access Modification) (Social Work) (Amendment) magistracy, which we will be celebrating later this year Order 2011. in Westminster Hall. On the attitude of the Ministry of Justice, my right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor Relevant documents: 16th Report from the Joint is certainly looking very actively at how magistrates Committee on Statutory Instruments can be given more work—not less—and take on more responsibilities. We will be looking at that in various The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord pieces of legislation later in the year. McNally): My Lords, never underestimate the value of the Whip because, but for the intervention of my Regarding the query on Article 38, prior to the noble friend Lady Northover, I would have been well coming into force of the Family Procedure Rules 2010, into this speech and would not have moved the Motion magistrates’ courts did not have the power to appoint on the previous order. I am most grateful to her. such representatives. Only the High Court and county courts had such powers. However, under the 2010 Rules, magistrates’ courts will be able to do so. Therefore, Lord Bach: My Lords, I think we are all extremely the fact that a person lacks capacity will not require a grateful. transfer of proceedings so that a representative can be appointed. It follows that it is appropriate to omit Lord McNally: The draft order before us today sub-paragraph (h) from Article 15(1) of the Allocation amends an order made in 2000 with regard to the data and Transfer of Proceedings Order 2008. The Family protection rights of individuals in the context of social Procedure Rule Committee considers that it is appropriate work. Specifically, the order brings the data protection that magistrates’ courts should have these powers to obligations of the Children and Family Court Advisory avoid unnecessary transfers. However, complex cases and Support Service in Wales—CAFCASS Cymru—into can still be transferred in accordance with the allocation line with those of its counterparts in England. GC 115 Data Protection Order 2011[LORDS] Data Protection Order 2011 GC 116

[LORD MCNALLY] CAFCASS Cymru has told us that, between 2007 The purpose of the draft order is to ensure that and 2009, there were 23 cases where it would have officers of CAFCASS Cymru are exempted from the considered using this exemption, had it been available. requirement to disclose personal data to an individual— In these cases, CAFCASS Cymru relied on the principle, known as a “data subject” in the Data Protection Act mentioned at the start of my remarks, that there 1998—when they consider that to do so would be would have been a reasonable expectation that information likely to prejudice the conduct of social work by that children share with a family court adviser would causing serious mental or physical harm to the individual remain confidential and therefore would not disclose or a third party. As a result of an order made in 2005, the information because it could give rise to an actionable CAFCASS Cymru’s counterparts in England can already breach of confidence. However, this approach has not use this partial exemption when replying to requests been tested, either by the courts or by the Information for personal data made under Section 7 of the Data Commissioner. The extension of this exemption to Protection Act 1998. In 2000, when the DPA came cover CAFCASS Cymru will provide it with parity into force, the Government brought forward such an and will ensure a stronger, more certain and explicit exemption by order, which could be relied upon where legal basis to withhold information if CAFCASS Cymru the disclosure of the information would prejudice the considered that this would be likely to prejudice the carrying out of social work by causing harm to an carrying out of social work, by causing serious harm individual or a third party. to the physical or mental health of a child. I should explain that, even without this exemption, I want to emphasise here that the Government take in certain situations data controllers may be able to the issue of individuals’ rights to access their personal rely on the principle that information shared with a data very seriously. Just as we have made clear our social worker was given in confidence. Therefore, it commitment to transparency in terms of public data might not be fair, or even lawful, to release the information, and official information, we are also committed to as to do so would be in contravention of the first data upholding people’s rights to see what information is protection principle in the DPA. However, the social being processed about them in both public and private work exemption in the 2000 order gave a strong, sectors. Indeed, the Ministry of Justice’s recent call for certain and very explicit legal basis to withhold evidence sought views on how the current subject information and ensure that social work is not prejudiced. access regime is working. Responses to this confirmed The schedule to the 2000 order listed those organisations that individuals see this as an important right and that and functions to which the exemption could be applied. data controllers by and large take their responsibilities This important exemption—the subject of our debate in this area seriously. But there can be no doubt that in today—ensures that individuals’ rights to see their certain, specific circumstances, such as those we are personal data do not inadvertently prevent social work considering today, releasing information may not be from being carried out effectively. in the interest of an individual, or indeed of others, including the children of the individual concerned, or With that background in mind, I will turn to the those involved in protecting them. reason for the order before us today. In 2005 an order I should make clear to noble Lords that a right of was approved by Parliament which added certain functions appeal remains for those individuals who believe that of CAFCASS in addition to those in the 2000 order. a subject access request has not been complied with The 2005 order allowed CAFCASS to apply the social fully. As with any subject access request, there is a work exemption in appropriate cases. As Members right of appeal through the courts under Section 7(9) will know, CAFCASS works with children and their of the Data Protection Act. Alternatively, individuals families who are involved in family proceedings, and may approach the Information Commissioner, who advises the courts on what it considers to be in the may investigate whether the data controller has complied child’s best interests. Matters in which CAFCASS may with the obligations under the Act. In addition, this become involved include where parents are separating order, should it be agreed, will add employees and or divorcing and cannot agree on arrangements for contractors of CAFCASS Cymru, acting in their their child. The role that CAFCASS officers perform professional capacity, to the list of “relevant persons” means that they routinely process information related in the 2000 social work order, as is the case with to social work. CAFCASS in England. On 1 April 2005, the functions of CAFCASS in Section 7 of the Data Protection Act acknowledges Wales were devolved to the Welsh Assembly, making that there may be times when the personal data of CAFCASS in Wales—CAFCASS Cymru—a separate another person may be released as the result of a organisation to that of CAFCASS in England. subject access request. In most circumstances, the data Unfortunately, this was not taken into account at the controller will need to seek the consent of that other time of the 2005 order, and therefore CAFCASS person or assess the reasonableness of disclosure before Cymru has not been able to apply this exemption, giving out the data. However, the personal data of a although its counterpart in England has. As a result, “relevant person”, as defined by the 2000 order, is not the intention behind the 2005 order that this exemption subject to these conditions of consent or reasonableness. should apply across England and Wales, as agreed by This means that CAFCASS Cymru must disclose Parliament, has not been fulfilled. It is important that personal data given by its employees in the course of this inconsistency in the subject access regime between their professional duties if this is required to provide England and Wales is rectified and that CAFCASS the data subject with personal data under the terms of Cymru is able to use this exemption as was originally a subject access request. Consent and the reasonableness intended. test are not factors in the disclosure. GC 117 Data Protection Order 2011[23 MARCH 2011] Data Protection Order 2011 GC 118

A concern was raised in another place about how Of course, whenever exemptions are made to data relevant persons will be protected from harm by having protection regarding people’s fundamental right to to release their personal data to others. It is important know what data are held about them, how those data to remember that this draft order would allow CAFCASS are used and what safeguarding processes there are, it Cymru to withhold information if social work was to is right that they should be very carefully examined. be prejudiced by causing harm to the individual or any This order has been examined very carefully in another third party. This could include those who work for place and I have read the transcript of those proceedings. CAFCASS Cymru. CAFCASS in England, which On that occasion, the matter was tested by a number must already adhere to this when replying to subject of questions, particularly about the frequency of access requests, has told us that it is not aware of any exemption already in place for England. However, harm caused to employees. In all cases so far it is only Members of the other place were content and satisfied the name of the employee that has been released and it with the answers that were given; in my view, we is highly unlikely that the individual making the request should also be content with the order and with the will not already know the name of that person—most way in which the Minister has outlined the order today. likely to be a social worker—who has been dealing There are occasions when it is not just right but with their case. As such, it would probably raise more important that exemptions are made to the normal suspicion if the name of the employee in question was rights under data protection legislation. That is common redacted and therefore the name is almost always sense and is appropriate. What makes the exemption released. Officials in CAFCASS Cymru have said that satisfactory is that, first, there is a right of appeal, their approach would be similar to that of CAFCASS which is very important in our view. Secondly, it is in England. Again, this provision would bring CAFCASS absolutely right that social workers, who are not very Cymru into line with CAFCASS in England to ensure well paid but who do a pretty demanding job that is consistency in the two bodies’ approach to releasing absolutely crucial and much underrated by the rest of personal data. society, should get the protection that they deserve, The principles about the need to maintain a strong and anything that can make their difficult task easier subject access regime while protecting individuals were should be done by Parliament, if possible. I believe agreed by all parties in 2005 and these principles still that that is what these exemptions have done so far in hold firm. In any case, there is no reason why they England and will now do in Wales. Our view is that should apply in England but not in Wales. Including this order is sensible, reasonable and absolutely CAFCASS Cymru in the list of organisations able to appropriate. apply the exemption will not only protect individuals and ensure that social work can be carried out effectively; Lord McNally: My Lords, I am sorry that my it will also ensure coherence and consistency between explanation of this instrument was succinct. I turned the organisations in England and Wales, and correct over in my mind whether to adopt the attitude exemplified the error made in 2005. I therefore commend this draft by my noble friend Lord Sassoon and the noble Lord, order to the Committee. Lord Davies, in the earlier debate by reducing the issue to some party barn-storming by announcing that this Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, I would not was the coalition cleaning up a mess left by the previous necessarily agree to the principle that something that Government, but I have been around this place long applies in England must necessarily apply in Wales. enough to know that we will probably make similar That is the whole point of devolution, which I am sure mistakes in legislation. that the noble Lord has foremost in his mind. However, I support this provision. Lord Bach: We did not even do that in the other The noble Lord referred to the call for evidence. He place. made a statement in July 2010 about the call for evidence, which he said was to be, Lord McNally: This just shows how these matters “assessed and used to inform the UK’s position in negotiations are dealt with in the justice system. I also note that, as on a new EU instrument for data protection, which are expected one QC eased himself out of the Benches, another QC to begin in early 2011”. eased himself in. I deal with these matters with great He also said that there would be a, trepidation. “Post-Implementation Review of the DPA, with a view to publishing On our call for evidence, the preliminary result was a full impact assessment by the end of the year”. published in January of this year and I shall ensure Have those time limits been complied with? I was not that my noble friend receives a copy. We are undertaking able to find anything to indicate that they had. What is an interesting exercise in trying to future-proof as the position in relation to the negotiations with the much as we can the whole of data protection. The call EU for a new instrument in this field? for evidence will be extremely useful in making what we hope will be a positive contribution to the review of the European directive. The capacity of data protection 5pm of the exchange of data has changed dramatically, Lord Bach: My Lords, I thank the Minister again even in this still young century. Therefore, the need to for explaining these orders—perhaps not quite as take a new look at data protection is extremely timely. succinctly as in the previous case, but I understand We shall be making a contribution to the review going why—and I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord on in Europe and we shall also review exemptions and Thomas of Gresford, for raising the point that he has applications under the Data Protection Act as part of raised. that process. GC 119 Data Protection Order 2011[LORDS] Offshore Chemicals Regulations 2011 GC 120

[LORD MCNALLY] 5.09 pm Perhaps I might associate myself with the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach. One was that it is important that there should be a right to access data. Sitting suspended for a Division in the House. Successive Governments have now been committed to greater transparency, but there have to be safeguards 5.19 pm along with that. I also therefore associate myself very much with his tribute to social workers—a group Lord Marland: My Lords, I am grateful we can sometimes quite outrageously pilloried in our popular continue. press—who carry out extremely difficult responsibilities Consequently, unintentional spills or leaks cannot on behalf of our whole society. If they are to carry out be subject to enforcement action. The purpose, therefore, such responsibilities, the kind of protection that this of the main amendment is to extend the scope of the order provides for them is no more than they deserve. 2002 chemicals regulations by creating a new distinction Certainly, in this case it should apply both in England between a discharge and a release. Put simply, a discharge and Wales. will be an intentional emission of an offshore chemical. Such an emission will be lawful if it is made in line Motion agreed. with the terms of a permit, which will be granted only if the planned emission does not pose an environmental threat. Any unintentional emission of an offshore Offshore Chemicals (Amendment) chemical will be treated as a release and will be unlawful. Regulations 2011 This will ensure that unauthorised emissions can be liable to enforcement action, including prosecution. Considered in Grand Committee This creates a new offence. Nevertheless, the creation of a new offence does not 5.07 pm mean that there will be a large number of extra Moved By Lord Marland prosecutions. Indeed, it is expected that there will be very few as the regulations allow other enforcement That the Grand Committee do report to the actions to be taken before prosecution. Our focus House that it has considered the Offshore Chemicals remains on preventing incidents through our robust (Amendment) Regulations 2011. environmental assessment and inspection regime. Oil spills and leaks are already covered by the 2005 oil Relevant documents: 12th Report from the Joint regulations, so I should stress that the concept of Committee on Statutory Instruments release is being introduced by the oil regulations 2011 The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department solely to ensure conformity with the chemicals regulations of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My 2011. Lords, I beg to move that the Committee considers the The draft regulations also make a number of other amendments proposed by the Offshore Chemicals changes to the regulatory framework. For example, (Amendment) Regulations 2011 and the Offshore the 2011 oil regulations include a new definition of Petroleum Activities (Oil Pollution Prevention and offshore installation that encompasses all pipelines, Control) (Amendment) Regulations 2011. There is some of which were not previously covered. The chemicals only one major change required, which concerns the regulations already covered pipelines but, for the sake 2002 chemicals regulations. These regulations implement of conformity, the 2011 chemicals regulations contain an international Ospar Convention commitment, which the same revised definition. requires operational uses and discharges of chemicals In addition, the enforcement provisions of the existing to be the subject of an application and assessment chemicals and oil regulations have been strengthened process. Under the system established in those regulations, by the amending regulations to allow DECC inspectors the use and discharge of chemicals during operational to require preventive action to stop spills occurring in activities relating to oil and gas exploration, production the first place. Another change is to the information- and decommissioning is only allowed in accordance gathering powers so that information can now be with the terms of a permit. The types of chemicals for obtained from a wider range of persons and in respect which permits might be granted include, for example, of a wider range of incidents that might affect the detergents used to clean rigs and hydraulic fluids used marine environment. Other minor changes are being to control well-heads and subsea valves. made by the 2011 chemicals and oil regulations, which At the time of bringing them into force, the 2002 will, for example, simplify the process for renewing chemicals regulations were considered to contain powers and varying permits or transferring them to a new relevant to all chemicals emissions. It has since become permit holder. These changes create even more consistency clear, through discussing an escape of chemicals with between the two regimes making them easier to administer an operator, that the regulations do not cover unintentional and for operators to comply with. events such as chemical spills or leaks that occur We all hope that the new prosecution powers will through accidents or faulty items of equipment that never have to be used. Nonetheless, I believe that are not functioning within their intended design. extending the scope of the offences is essential to provide strengthened enforcement and pollution The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness prevention measures to my department. These regulations Harris of Richmond): My Lords, a Division has been will benefit the marine environment through improved called in the House. We will resume in 10 minutes. enforcement powers. They also introduce more consistency GC 121 Offshore Chemicals Regulations 2011[23 MARCH 2011] Offshore Chemicals Regulations 2011 GC 122 to the existing regulatory regimes which will assist Minister give us the comparable figures on emissions industry compliance. I commend these instruments to that have occurred through permits? This will allow us the Committee. to appreciate the balance between authorised discharges and unintended releases and the totality of all emissions. I also understand that permit applications are not Lord Teverson: My Lords, I thank the Minister for granted where it is thought that operators should be his robust explanation of these regulations which are able to operate without an emission. In other words, clearly important in terms of environmental sustainability permits should not be applied for to cover possible in the north-east Atlantic area. I want to explore the discharges. Have there been such occasions? If a permit Ospar agreement a little. It is very important to us and application was refused, has there subsequently been a will be critical in carbon capture and storage, which I release? shall not go into this afternoon. I am interested to understand how we are doing this to comply with a Will the Minister give us an understanding of how decision by Ospar. Do decisions by contracting parties the enforcement agency—presumably the Environment to Ospar have to be unanimous or are they by qualified Agency, but perhaps also the Health and Safety majority voting? What incident brought to the attention Executive—goes about its enforcement role? With the of the Government the fact that the previous legislation number of notifications of spills of chemicals and was defective in some way? Listening to the Minister’s from the oil industry, not all spills would have resulted explanation, I was surprised that there has to be this in a prosecution. In notification, what is the typical difference between a discharge, and I have already response? The numbers seem to suggest that this is a forgotten what the other noun was, but never mind. frequent, almost daily, occurrence. Does this lead to Will the Minister confirm that other contracting parties an element of complacency? Are these spills analysed to the Ospar agreement—the Explanatory Notes mention to see whether action could be taken to reduce the the harmonised mandatory control system—are fully amount? I am sure the industry is tireless in its pursuit complying with that decision, as we are attempting of perfection, but an understanding of the interplay to do? between the regulators and the relevant industries might be enlightening. Lord Grantchester: I thank the Minister for introducing These regulations are brought forward with the these offshore activities regulations. It is obviously recent events in the Gulf of Mexico fresh in our eminently sensible that the pollution prevention and minds. We debated this situation on 16 December control regulations be updated to correct a deficiency, when the differences between the two regulatory regimes simplify and create more consistency across the two were explored and noted. The Minister rightly praised regimes and make compliance with regulatory the UK industry for its high safety standards. In requirements easier to understand. In addition, response to the gulf disaster, the industry set up the oil information-gathering powers have been strengthened spill prevention and response advisory group, OSPRAG. so that information can be obtained from a wider Will the Minister update us on any developments that range of persons in relation to a wider range of have occurred in its deliberations following various incidents capable of affecting the environment. reports on the disaster by the congressional inquiries? It must be correct that all unauthorised emissions— discharges and releases—are liable to enforcement action, 5.30 pm including prosecution. It must also be correct to allow These regulations will come into force the day after inspectors to require preventive action to stop spills they are laid. This is justified by the high level of occurring in the first place. When these regulations awareness of the proposed change following extensive were debated in the other place on 1 March, the consultations. Will the Minister confirm that it can be Minister gave the context of spills recorded over recent confidently expected that operators have taken the years. Between 2005 and 2009, chemical spills averaged regulations on board already and therefore do not 157 notifications per year, totalling 735 tonnes, none require a period in which to comply? Will he further of which posed an environmental threat, with chemicals confirm that these regulations have been drawn up being defined in their broadest sense and including with future developments in mind? In that regard, will substances such as brine. Between 2005 and 2009, oil they be sufficient to apply to LNG as well as to spills averaged 283 notifications per year, totalling developments on carbon capture and storage where it 51 tonnes, 6 tonnes of which were crude oil, with the is to be expected that the flow will be reversed? remainder being diesel and hydraulic fluid, none of Finally, we are aware of the regulatory burden which posed an environmental threat. The Minister whereby the Government are committed to balance added that if the chemical releases deficiency had not the introduction of new regulations with the withdrawal existed, another three incidents would have been liable of others. Am I able to tempt the Minister to say how to enforcement action, although it is tempting to ask these regulations will be assessed? Do they count as whether the department can be sure that that is all replacements of the 2002 and 2005 regulations or there would have been if by the new definition a should they be assessed as extending their jurisdiction? release was not then notifiable. Is the department From these Benches, these questions seek only further confident that its knowledge of operations is exhaustive clarity on the workings and the background to the in this respect? regulations. We are in agreement with the regulations. What does this figure of spills mean? Does it include only unauthorised emissions, or does it also include Lord Teverson: My Lords, I, too, would be interested permit releases by agreement, which therefore do not to understand what would be the prosecuting authority. result in an offence? If it is only the former, will the Under the Marine and Coastal Access Act, I would GC 123 Offshore Chemicals Regulations 2011[LORDS] Renewables Obligation Order 2011 GC 124

[LORD TEVERSON] Offshore Petroleum Activities (Oil have thought that it would not be the Environment Pollution Prevention and Control) Agency but the Marine Management Organisation. I would be interested in that clarification. (Amendment) Regulations 2011 Considered in Grand Committee

Lord Marland: My Lords, I thank noble Lords for 5.36 pm their comments. I did not realise that such an SI would have so many incisive questions associated with it. I Moved By Lord Marland shall do my best to plough through them in the technical scope that they require. I will not take them That the Grand Committee do report to the in any particular order, but I shall immediately turn to House that it has considered the Offshore Petroleum the Gulf of Mexico. It is not a subject for discussion Activities (Oil Pollution Prevention and Control) under these regulations. Clearly, a lot of future (Amendment) Regulations 2011. consideration needs to be taken into account as a Relevant documents: 12th Report from the Joint result of the event. We are not at that point yet, but in Committee on Statutory Instruments various debates we have readily established that the UK has a safety record which is second to none. Motion agreed. Moving on to who is responsible for overseeing theseregulations,inDECCwehaveouroffshoreenvironmental inspectorate which reviews and assesses all spills and Renewables Obligation (Amendment) reports to ensure that the operators take action where Order 2011 appropriate to respond to any spill. It is very much within our own department and we work closely with Considered in Grand Committee Oil & Gas UK and the various trade associations. The point behind these regulations is that there 5.37 pm obviously have been discharges. They were provoked Moved By Lord Marland by a modest discharge in the north North Sea from a chemical pipeline where an element of leakage and That the Grand Committee do report to the spillage was found that was not technically covered by House that it has considered the Renewables Obligation the regulations. We have acted accordingly to embrace (Amendment) Order 2011. that sort of incident to ensure that the excellent Relevant documents: 16th Report from the Joint environmental safety record that we maintain continues. Committee on Statutory Instruments Perhaps I may provide the statistics that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, wants in writing rather than The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department go through them now. I think that they are a slight of Energy and Climate Change (Lord Marland): My sideshow to the real effect here, which is to make sure Lords, this is a slightly more inspiring subject than the that we have got all the areas of concern covered. I last one, I must admit. The changes brought about by apologise for jumping around the questions a bit. The this order are essential to ensure that the mechanism noble Lord also asked whether these regulations refer continues to operate effectively and efficiently. We to carbon capture and storage, for example. I can have committed to being the “greenest Government confirm that they do. Now that I am in the middle of ever”. A key part of this is our drive to meeting our negotiating the demonstration project, it is very important EU target of generating 15 per cent of all our energy that this is taken into account as, indeed, are gas from renewables by 2020. I appreciate that this target storage and pipelines. is challenging and ambitious. It will require a fivefold The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, rightly asked about increase from the 2009 levels in overall renewable Ospar’s decision. It must be unanimous. North Atlantic electricity across electricity, heat and transport. Specifically states are involved in that decision, and it is then for the electricity sector, which the renewable obligation transposed into UK law. He also asked recently these is designed to support, we will need 25 per cent to regulations extend previous ones. They do because we 30 per cent of our electricity to come from renewables are broadening the scope. In answer to the question on by 2020—a significant increase from the 6.7 per cent the Marine Management Organisation, it is DECC generated in 2009. inspectors, as I mentioned earlier. We are making good progress, however. We are on This is a very technical clause—as you can it is track to meet the first interim target of generating imagine far too technical for me—but I hope we have 4 per cent of our energy from renewables by 2011-12 dealt with a number of the questions, but because of and we currently have 25 gigawatts in the renewable the technical nature there might be one or two areas I electricity pipeline. A strong spending review settlement have not covered. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord reaffirmed our commitment to achieving the target Grantchester, is a great technician in this area. I am with the £200 million provided for developing low-carbon happy to answer in writing—actually I prefer my technologies, including £60 million for offshore wind officials to do so because I do not have a clue what I manufacturing infrastructure at coastal sites. That is am writing about—and I hope noble Lords will support just one example of the investment we are making to the two sets of draft regulations. I commend these two ensure we reach our goal. Since 2002, the renewables instruments to the Committee. obligation has been the Government’s main mechanism Motion agreed. for incentivising investment in large-scale renewables. GC 125 Renewables Obligation Order 2011[23 MARCH 2011] Renewables Obligation Order 2011 GC 126

In that time it has succeeded—and I pay credit to the about by this order is the introduction of sustainability previous Government—in more than tripling the level criteria for generators using bioliquids, in line with of renewable electricity in the UK, and it currently our requirement to transpose mandatory sustainability supports around 6.3 gigawatts of accredited capacity. standards for bioliquids in the 2009 European renewable This order introduces three main changes to the energy directive. From 1 April this year, we will require RO: offshore wind phasing, the extension of biomass electricity generated using bioliquids to meet the criteria sustainability reporting and implementation of mandatory set out in the directive in order to be eligible for ROCs. sustainability criteria for bioliquids. These amendments To demonstrate compliance, generators will need to will ensure that the RO mechanism can continue to provide Ofgem with evidence that the bioliquid meets build on what it has already achieved. Offshore wind the sustainability criteria, and there is a requirement phasing has the potential to play a highly significant for this evidence to be independently audited. We will role in achieving our renewables targets. In a November open the RO to bioliquids partially derived from fossil 2010 Ernst & Young report, the UK was rated number fuel, such as biodiesel, given that it is eligible under the one in the world for its attractiveness to the offshore directive, providing those bioliquids can meet the wind industry and we want to ensure we capitalise on sustainability criteria. However, ROCs will be awarded that potential. on the biomass portion of its energy content only. The order will therefore allow offshore wind developers Concerning the devolved Administrations, the changes accrediting after 31 March 2011 to phase the support we are introducing apply to England and Wales. Scotland they receive under the RO, with each phase receiving and Northern Ireland are bringing in separate but the full 20 years of RO support. This will ensure that complementary orders that will work together to create offshore wind developers are not adversely affected by a UK renewables obligation. I can confirm that the the long construction periods of such projects and the changes I have set out before you today have been issues of seasonality involved with building in a marine subject to the European state aid approval process, for environment. Developers will be able to register up to which, I am pleased to announce, clearance was granted five phases of turbines, over a maximum of five years, in early February. with a requirement to register a minimum of turbines This Government are, of course, committed to equivalent to at least 20 per cent of the accredited supporting renewables investment. We will therefore installed capacity of the station in the first phase to maintain the RO by protecting investments made under ensure that maximum deployment is brought forward it and are also consulting on the best means to transition as quickly as possible. from the RO to the new support mechanism introduced through electricity market reform, on which we have Biomass, too, has a key role to play in enabling us just finished our consultation. We will be advising to achieve our targets with the potential for around about it later. The changes being introduced to the RO 30 per cent of our overall target coming from biomass by way of the order being debated will therefore power and heat. However, we need to ensure that in ensure that it continues to operate in an effective meeting our targets we do so in a way that protects manner for those protected investments. I commend our environment and is sustainable. We are therefore the order to the Committee. introducing mandatory sustainability criteria for generators using solid biomass and biogas. This will 5.45 pm require a minimum 60 per cent greenhouse gas emission saving for electricity generation using solid biomass Lord Reay: I shall say a word or two about this and biogas. In addition, the criteria will place general order. In itself, it is not very significant or pernicious restrictions on using materials sourced from land with and, given that these subsidies for offshore wind-generating a high biodiversity value or high carbon stock. stations are going to be paid in any case, I have no objection to them being paid in phases as the order However, we want to limit the burden these criteria provides. However, I strongly object to the underlying place on generators and, as such, a two-year transition policy requiring these subsidies to be paid in the first phase will apply. Mandatory reporting against the place. Mostly, I find myself in opposition to onshore criteria will be required from April this year, with wind farms, which are of course ferociously opposed eligibility for biomass and biogas to receive support from one end of the country to the other—not by the under the RO being linked to meeting the criteria from noble Lord, Lord Teverson, but by many others. Besides April 2013. This will allow generators time to familiarise ruining the lives of some who live in close proximity to themselves with the criteria and reporting process them, they do irreparable damage to our wonderful before the criteria are explicitly linked to ROCs. rural landscapes. We are also conscious of not unfairly burdening Offshore wind is obviously less offensive in both small generators. Therefore, while generators over those respects, although I sometimes feel that Turner, 50 kilowatts will still be required to report against the for example, would not be too pleased to see how criteria, all generators below 1 megawatt will be excluded some of the estuaries and wild foreshores he lovingly from the full scope of the scheme and will not need to painted have been desecrated and had their romance comply with the criteria to qualify for ROCs from and natural appeal, as in the Solway Firth, systematically 2013. In addition, the sustainability criteria will not degraded by this industrial intrusion. However, the apply to the use of biomass and biogas made from factors I wish to emphasise are their uselessness and waste, landfill gas or sewage gas. expense. Concerns about sustainability are not present just As a result of the harsh weather we have experienced here in the UK but have similarly been reflected at in recent winters, it has been brought home to virtually European level. Therefore, the final amendment brought everyone in the country that when the demand for GC 127 Renewables Obligation Order 2011[LORDS] Renewables Obligation Order 2011 GC 128

[LORD REAY] contrast, our Government still pursue a policy which electricity is at its very highest, the contribution from will ensure that more of our industry departs overseas, wind power is at its lowest. In fact, it may be close to that ever more people sadly plunge into fuel poverty zero for days at a time. Therefore, we must always be and that the return to the age of freezing in the dark is able to supply all the electricity we might ever require—it brought closer. For those reasons, it is with a heavy is required at the moment—by other means. Nor is the heart that I witness the adoption of this ostensibly contribution from offshore wind produced more efficiently harmless amendment order. than that from onshore wind; far from it. Last year, the load factor for offshore wind—the Lord Teverson: My Lords, I do not think I will reply percentage of installed capacity that is generating over to the noble Lord, Lord Reay, but I agree with him the year—fell, at 26 per cent, just below that for profoundly that wind turbines are fantastic and are a onshore wind. So much for the fatuous claim, which is great asset to much of the countryside for visitors to sometimes made by Ministers when attempting to Cornwall. However, there are issues for those who live justify their scheme of surrounding these islands with near them which we must recognise, although once a ring of turbines, that wind is one of our great natural they are there I do not think people notice them too assets. I calculate from the Digest of United Kingdom much. Energy Statistics that wind power contributed somewhat less than 3 per cent of the electricity generated last I want to concentrate on something completely year in the UK. I should think not much more than different. I welcome the efforts by the Government 1 per cent was from offshore wind. Perhaps my noble and by the Minister to ensure that the issue of friend the Minister could confirm or correct that sustainability of biomass fuels is taken on board and figure, as it does not seem to be separated off in that is concentrated on. Two or three years ago, we found digest of statistics. that biofuels in the transport area were the great salvation for decarbonising our economy but because Moreover, that miserable achievement is only possible of the many valid issues around food security and thanks to the subsidies for offshore wind, which have rising food prices, the substitution of fuels for food now been raised to twice the level paid for onshore became a lot more contentious. Although I believe wind. That requirement is hardly surprising, given the that biofuels are an important part of the future, they obviously far greater difficulties in constructing and have to be seen to be sustainable, otherwise what is the maintaining turbines in deep salt water rather than on point? land. The effect of the subsidy, paid for ultimately by the electricity consumer, is that the offshore electricity The importance of the order is that we get in front producer receives no less than three times the market of the curve in this area and assure the public that, rate for all the electricity he produces, and is guaranteed with the increasing use of biomass, they are sustainable. that rate for 20 years. What is the installed capacity of I have two wood-burning stoves in my house which I all existing commissioned and/or accredited wind turbines hope are sustainable; they appear to be and I am told today, and what amount of subsidy are they guaranteed they are, although they come from Somerset and are for the rest of their lives, in aggregate, assuming that trucked down to Cornwall rather than produced locally. current load factors continue? If my noble friend is We have to be careful as the public perception of what not able to answer that question this afternoon, I shall is sustainable in regard to biomass, particularly wood, table it as a Written Question. is not always what it should be. Strange as it may seem, sometimes it can make sense to bulk-ship wood in the I have recently read the renewables obligation annual right condition across oceans rather than cut down report for 2009-10. It is an interesting document, but I local forests. In terms of transport solutions to carbon can hardly recommend it to noble Lords for light production, that can sometimes be best. I am sure that reading. The ROC system is one of the most sublimely that is taken into account but I welcome this order. complex and opaque subsidy systems ever devised by the bureaucratic mind. No doubt that very fact gives it a certain political value. From it and from ministerial Lord Grantchester: Once again, I thank the Minister answers to Written Questions, I think I have gleaned for introducing the renewables obligation order today. that the cost of the ROC system last year was It is an extremely important order as the renewables approximately £1.4 billion and that the share in that of obligation is crucial in driving forward the development offshore wind amounted to approaching £200 million. of renewable electricity generation through various Could my noble friend confirm those figures? If so, support mechanisms. We are in broad agreement with could he say what he expects them to be this year? the order. The provisions concerning the phased One thing is for sure, that the intention of Her development of offshore wind generation are sensible Majesty’s Government—hell-bent as they are on achieving and build on Labour’s legacy in laying the foundations their impossible renewable energy targets—is that these and ensuring that the ROCs cover the whole lifespan figures should expand massively in the years to come. of a project. In answer to a Written Question in this House in The situation at Dogger Bank, where there may be January, the Minister gave his department’s estimate some 2,000 turbines, requires phasing so that the early that by 2020 the subsidy cost for the ROC scheme capacity can be rewarded while the later development would be more than £5 billion a year. I believe that the can still qualify for the full 20-year payment period Government should do what the Dutch Government permitted to receive ROCs. As wind power is at the have announced they intend to do, which is to remove vanguard of renewable technologies, will we need similar all subsidies from offshore wind and, in so doing, orders to encourage investment in other technologies, abandon their previous renewable energy target. By such as wave and tidal generation? GC 129 Renewables Obligation Order 2011[23 MARCH 2011] Renewables Obligation Order 2011 GC 130

This part of the order is to be welcomed. Set 6pm against wider electricity market reform, signals to The drive towards biomass is not only about facilitate cost-effective investment in all forms of low- sustainability about where we source our biomass carbon generation must be supported. It is a complex product from internationally but about domestic balance reviewing the roles that a carbon price, an sustainability. The established timber industry and the emissions performance standard, a revised renewables wood panel industry in this country are concerned obligation, feed-in tariffs, capacity mechanisms and that their products, including some good quality wood other interventions should play in achieving our goals. that should not be burnt for biomass but should be The challenge in the order today relates to the used for other purposes, might be squeezed or priced sustainability criteria for biomass and bioliquids. out of the markets, and that there might be genuine Deliberations between Defra and DECC will have job implications that do not appear in the impact been informative in assessing whether we have the assessment. balance right in defining the sustainability criteria. We The impact assessment focuses exclusively on must ensure that we do not produce negative adverse sustainability in land use and the sourcing of timber. implications for land use management or for the transfer It does not consider the other externalities of the from food production into biofuels or biomass oil, possible impacts on the wider timber production sector and that must be the case both domestically in the UK in the UK. Will the Minister say whether there have and internationally. There are several options for the been discussions, especially in the light of the forestry Minister to consider when looking at how to achieve proposals recently brought forward? Will he also expand that balance, and the question for the Committee to on the rationale for including fossil-fuel derivatives in consider is whether we have that balance right. the bioliquids in the eligibility for ROCs? Why would one include fossil-fuel derived products in biofuels and The issue of cost efficiency is key and the provisions reward them with ROCs? will not satisfy everybody. Some organisations will say Finally, perhaps I may ask the Minister to reassure that we must go much further and put sustainability the Committee that when he looks at the various criteria at a higher level. Of course, that will have options for biomass, in particular, as well as bioliquids, implications, and not only for the UK. If all we do is the preferred option will be the one that delivers transfer the problem to other EU nations, that will certainty around sustainability criteria, which people simply drive our greenhouse gas problems abroad. I have been seeking for some time and on which the hope that the Minister will elaborate a little on the previous Government were working. The preferred representations that he has heard during the 12-week option should also have the right balance between the consultation both within DECC and in discussions burdens on industry and the light touch, and ensuring with Defra Ministers and other organisations. Will he that our expansion in biomass generation, to which we tell us who is broadly content with the proposals, who all subscribe, will not be at the cost of the environment thinks that they should go further and who thinks in this country or elsewhere. they have gone too far? Who thinks that the burdens are too great? That will help us to decide whether we have the balance right. Lord Marland: My Lords, we have heard two very eloquent extremes of attitude. The noble Lord, Lord The Minister said that this order will be subject to Reay, as always, comes from a standpoint of his concern endorsement by the devolved Administrations. Will he about onshore wind, which obviously we respect. It is illuminate the Committee about whether there have very much for the local communities themselves to been any differences of opinion among the devolved establish whether this is the right option for them. Ministers in terms of input into the formulation of the Clearly, in Cornwall, the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, sustainability criteria? Were the Welsh, Scottish or with two stoves in his home—I think he will be known Northern Ireland departments in a different position? as “two-stoves Teverson”from now on—would obviously What was the nature of the discussions that have welcome onshore wind in the neighbourhood. I can brought us to this point today, or was there broad only imagine that up on the Solway Firth, that glorious consensus from the outset that the right balance was Turner landscape, the noble Lord, Lord Reay, would achieved between avoiding the imposition of undue not. burdens on businesses, the regulatory framework and The principle point here in terms of wind and delivering legally sourced, sustainable biomass and alternative energy sources is that we have to deliver bioliquid crops? energy security for this country. I do not think anyone Earlier, I mentioned marine and tidal power and would doubt that, given the fluctuation in oil prices at asked whether a similar approach can be adopted. the moment and the reduction in our North Sea Paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum states capability. Renewables have to play a fundamental how that could work. I can see the sense in that. The part if we are to achieve our 2050 pathway, which 50 kilowatt exemption is eminently sensible. We do not shows that, for more than double the amount of want to drive new or smaller investors from this potential electricity required, we need energy and electricity market. It is right to exempt essentially domestic from all sources. That is what the Government are installations. However, in the intervening time, will the setting out to do. The ROC programme pump-primes Minister also consult with those industries which are the renewable generation which is so important. not directly involved in biomass generation and so on, The noble Lord, Lord Reay, asked some extremely and which have an interest in what happens with the valuable questions: for example, what is the present ROCs regime and the development of this industry? installed capacity for accredited offshore wind turbines? GC 131 Renewables Obligation Order 2011[LORDS] Renewables Obligation Order 2011 GC 132

[LORD MARLAND] I am grateful that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I can confirm to him that it is 1.32 gigawatts of supports this order. He asked whether we should be offshore, which is the amount accredited under the extending it to wave and other forms of marine activity. RO. ROCs are eligible on generation only when the We should of course be reviewing that and I am turbine is generating, which is when they are paid. We grateful that he pointed that out. A lot of the work we hope that that is good news and that we are not just are doing here is building on some of the activity that throwing money at them, particularly, as the noble the previous Government carried out. He asked about Lord points out, when they are not generating. the devolved Administrations and, as noble Lords In terms of the aggregate subsidy that is guaranteed would expect, we are on a very similar footing with over the next 20 years, that requires quite a lot of them. As I pointed out, they make independent decisions predictive analysis which we are working on as a but we have very good relationships across the piece, department, as the noble Lord would expect. I would for which I am grateful to our officials. There is very like to provide him with that information later, if he little that can be put between us. does not mind, but the current cost of the ROC system The noble Lord also asked who was in favour and of subsidy for 2009-10 was in fact £1.1 billion—I think who wanted us to go further, or not as far. It would be that the noble Lord said £1.4 billion—of which wrong to go through the list of people on one side or £142 million rather than £200 million was provided for the other, so suffice to say that, as with most of us in offshore. The figures are not readily available for future this Room, broad agreement was achieved in getting years. to this. Clearly, some would have wanted us to go Another question asked by the noble Lord, Lord much further and others would not but that is what is Reay, was: what percentage of electricity was generated done in consultation. We are permanently consulting at present by offshore wind? I cannot tell him what it is in our department on the activity that goes on. We at present, but in 2009 it was 0.5 per cent and that is seem to be doing it every day. The certainty of the going up exponentially as a number of offshore wind sustainability criteria is absolutely fundamental and I turbines are installed. As an aside to the excellent am so grateful to the noble Lord for bringing up that defensive points made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, point. I hope that that deals with the substance of the it is quite interesting that in our manifesto document, questions and that this statutory instrument finds for example, we were against the importation of wood favour with the Committee. for these purposes but were told by the World Trade Organisation that we could not possibly do that. I Motion agreed. know that the Liberal Democrat manifesto differed from ours, so we can see immediately the benefits of this great coalition. Committee adjourned at 6.08 pm. WS 61 Written Statements[23 MARCH 2011] Written Statements WS 62

The Government have also protected families from Written Statements potential increases in council tax by ruling out a council tax revaluation in England for the remainder Wednesday 23 March 2011 of this Parliament. The Localism Bill also legislates to abolish bin taxes—which would have entailed new charges for household waste collections for many families Council Tax on top of council tax. Statement Debt and Reserves Management Statement The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Sassoon): My honourable friend the Financial Secretary Communities and Local Government (Eric Pickles) to the Treasury (Mark Hoban) has today made the has made the following Written Ministerial Statement. following Written Ministerial Statement. I am pleased to inform the House that all eligible The Debt and Reserves Management Report 2011-12 local, fire and rescue and police authorities in England is being published today. Copies have been deposited have decided to freeze or reduce their band D council in the Libraries of the House. tax in 2011-12 and will therefore all be eligible to receive the additional grant offered by the Government Planning for doing so. The average band D rate of council tax Statement will remain at £1,439—a change of 0 per cent. This is the lowest ever change in the entire history of council The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department tax. It represents a cash terms freeze, and a real terms for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): cut in council tax. The capping threshold in recent My right honourable friend the Minister for Decentralisation years was a 5 per cent council tax rise. Stopping such a (Greg Clark) has made the following Written Ministerial rise this year saves a typical household up to £72 and if Statement. an average 2.5 per cent rise had occurred the saving The Chancellor of the Exchequer has today issued would have been £36. a call to action on growth, publishing an ambitious set Council tax payers in some areas may see a small of proposals to help rebuild Britain’s economy. The cash increase in their overall bill due to precept increases planning system has a key role to play in this, by set by town and parish councils; central government ensuring that the sustainable development needed to have no remit over such precepts. However, nationally, support economic growth is able to proceed as easily this is offset by some councils which are making cash as possible. We will work quickly to reform the planning terms reductions to council tax levels. system to achieve this, but the Government recognise The Government have delivered on their promise to that many of these actions will take some months to work with authorities to produce a council tax freeze deliver, and that there is a pressing need to ensure that in England, which is tremendous news for hard working the planning system does everything it can to help families and pensioners who have experienced a doubling secure a swift return to economic growth,. This Statement of council tax since 1997. therefore sets out the steps the Government expect local planning authorities to take with immediate The spending review made £650 million available effect. for the council tax freeze. Where an authority has not The Government’s top priority in reforming the increased its basic amount of council tax in 2011-12 planning system is to promote sustainable economic compared with 2010-11, it will receive a grant equivalent growth and jobs. The Government’s clear expectation to a 2.5 per cent increase in its 2010-11 band D figure is that the answer to development and growth should multiplied by the latest available tax base figure. wherever possible be “yes”, except where this would My department will write to individual local authorities compromise the key sustainable development principles this week informing them of the amount of freeze set out in national planning policy. grant I propose to pay to them during 2011-12. I The Chancellor has today set out further detail on intend the grant to be paid in 10 equal monthly our commitment to introduce a strong presumption in instalments from April 2011 through to January 2012. favour of sustainable development in the forthcoming Following the 100 per cent response to the freeze by National Planning Policy Framework, which will expect eligible authorities, no further capping action is required local planning authorities to plan positively for new in 2011-12. development; to deal promptly and favourably with Although the council tax freeze is only for one year, applications that comply with up-to-date plans and financial provision is made to support the freeze across national planning policies; and wherever possible to the spending review. This will lock in the benefits of approve applications where plans are absent, out of this year’s freeze over each year over the spending date, silent or indeterminate. review. Local planning authorities should therefore press Moving forward, the Localism Bill makes provision ahead without delay in preparing up-to-date development for the abolition of central government capping powers, plans, and should use that opportunity to be proactive replacing them with new, binding council tax referendums in driving and supporting the growth that this country from 2012-13 whenever an authority is proposing an needs. They should make every effort to identify and excessive increase. meet the housing, business and other development WS 63 Written Statements[LORDS] Written Statements WS 64 needs of their areas, and respond positively to wider considerations. They should ensure that they give opportunities for growth, taking full account of relevant appropriate weight to the need to support economic economic signals such as land prices. Authorities should recovery, that applications that secure sustainable growth work together to ensure that needs and opportunities are treated favourably (consistent with policy in PPS4), that extend beyond (or cannot be met within) their and that they can give clear reasons for their decisions. own boundaries are identified and accommodated in a sustainable way, such as housing market requirements To further ensure that development can go ahead, that cover a number of areas, and the strategic all local authorities should reconsider, at developers’ infrastructure necessary to support growth. request, existing Section 106 agreements that currently When deciding whether to grant planning permission, render schemes unviable, and where possible modify local planning authorities should support enterprise those obligations to allow development to proceed, and facilitate housing, economic and other forms of provided this continues to ensure that the development sustainable development. Where relevant—and consistent remains acceptable in planning terms. with their statutory obligations—they should therefore: The Secretary of State for Communities and Local consider fully the importance of national planning Government will take the principles in this Statement policies aimed at fostering economic growth and into account when determining applications that come employment, given the need to ensure a return to before him for decision. In particular he will attach robust growth after the recent recession; significant weight to the need to secure economic take into account the need to maintain a flexible growth and employment. and responsive supply of land for key sectors, including housing; Benefits to the economy should, where relevant, be consider the range of likely economic, environmental an important consideration when other development- and social benefits of proposals; including long related consents are being determined, including heritage, term or indirect benefits such as increased consumer environmental, energy and transport consents. The choice, more viable communities and more robust Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and local economies (which may, where relevant, include Sport, the Secretary of State for the Environment, matters such as job creation and business productivity); Food and Rural Affairs, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change and the Secretary of be sensitive to the fact that local economies are State for Transport have consequently agreed that to subject to change and so take a positive approach to the extent it accords with the relevant statutory provisions development where new economic data suggest that and national policies, decisions on these other consents prior assessments of needs are no longer up-to-date; should place particular weight on the potential economic and benefits offered by an application. They will reflect ensure that they do not impose unnecessary burdens this principle in relevant decisions that come before on development. them and encourage their agencies and non-departmental In determining planning applications, local planning bodies to adopt the same approach for the consents authorities are obliged to have regard to all relevant for which those other bodies are directly responsible. WA 167 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 168

is considering a number of options, including manually Written Answers validated payments for the full claim value, to help ensure that this happens in practice. Part of that consideration Wednesday 23 March 2011 involves confirming that the necessary resources are available to deploy each of the options. Afghanistan and Iraq: Civilian Deaths Question Airports: Thames Estuary Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark total numbers to date of civilian deaths and injuries in Iraq and Afghanistan; and how many of those To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their injured or killed were children. [HL7580] assessment of the proposal by the Mayor of London to build a new airport in the Thames estuary. [HL7212] The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We deeply regret all civilian casualties. The Government do not record Earl Attlee: The Department for Transport has not figures for insurgent or civilian casualties in either made any recent assessment of the merits of a new Iraq or Afghanistan because of the immense difficulty airport in the Thames estuary. This is not an option and risks that would be involved in collecting robust we are considering. data. The UN Assistance Mission to Afghanistan Our priority is to get the most out of existing (UNAMA) released its own report on civilian casualties airport infrastructure in the south-east, which is why in March 2011, which recorded a total of 2,777 civilian we have established the South East Airports Task deaths in 2010, 75 per cent of which were attributed to Force to improve operations at Heathrow, Gatwick anti-government forces. and Stansted. Throughout its military engagement in Iraq, the UK has sought at all costs to avoid civilian casualties and took seriously its responsibilities and obligations Armed Forces: Aircraft under the Geneva convention. The prevention of civilian Question casualties is of paramount concern to force commanders operating in Iraq and the risk of this occurring is Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark minimised by the tactics and training of our forces. To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Protecting the Afghan civilian population is a times in the past five years Royal Air Force fighter cornerstone of the International Security Assistance planes have been scrambled to intercept aircraft Force’s mission, and all British troops undergo from foreign powers as they approached United comprehensive training on the strict rules of engagement. Kingdom airspace. [HL7727] This contrasts directly with the attitude of the insurgents, whose indiscriminate use of suicide bombs, roadside explosive devices and human shields cause the majority The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of civilian deaths and injuries in Afghanistan. of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The number of days on which Royal Air Force Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) aircraft have been launched in each of the past five Agriculture: Single Farm Payments years is contained in the following table: Question Number of days QRA launched Number Asked by The Duke of Montrose 2006 (1) 2 To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether 2007 19 arrangements are in place to employ sufficient staff 2008 15 to carry out manual checking of single farm payments 2009 14 applications if there is a risk that they will not meet 2010 14 the 30 June deadline set by the European Union. (1) Records held from September 2006. [HL7779]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department Armed Forces: Foot Patrol for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): The Government remain committed to making outstanding Question payments under the 2010 single payment scheme as Asked by Lord Moonie soon as possible and to do so with a focus on accuracy so as to help address the legacy of errors and EU fines. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what was the With the exception of a small numbers of claims, for maximum proportion of bodyweight that infantry example involving probate, the intention is that all soldiers carried on long distance marches while payments will be made within the regulatory payment deployed during the Falkland Islands conflict. window ending on 30 June. The Rural Payments Agency [HL7636] WA 169 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 170

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Armed Forces: Medals of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): This information is not held in the format requested. Question Asked by Lord Ashcroft Armed Forces: Joint Military Exercise To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a Question serving British prison officer in Afghanistan is entitled to a campaign medal. [HL7569] Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark To ask Her Majesty’s Government with which The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry countries they plan to do joint military exercises. of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Yes. To be eligible, [HL7585] personnel must have served at least 45 days service in total under the command of the UK Joint Task Force The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry commander on a designated operation within the of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The countries with qualifying area. which the United Kingdom intends to conduct joint military exercises between now and 2014, subject to Armed Forces: Redundancy changes that might be made to current planning assumptions, are as follows: Question Asked by Lord Touhig Australia Belgium To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the Brazil inquiry by the Secretary of State for Defence into Brunei the notification of Armed Forces personnel regarding Canada their redundancies is complete; and whether it will Chile be published. [HL7700] Czech Republic Denmark The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry Egypt of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): The Ministry of Estonia Defence fully recognises the distress that this caused Finland the individuals and their families, and I take this France opportunity once again to apologise unreservedly for Germany this error. Greece It is not normal practice to publish the outcome of India internal investigations and we do not intend to do so. Israel The investigation was completed on 23 February 2011 Italy and has confirmed that this was the result of a genuine Jordan and isolated error, which meant that the normal staffing Kenya procedures were not followed. This meant that the Latvia 38 individuals affected had not been informed of this Lithuania decision by the chain of command before they received Malawi the email from the Army Personnel Centre (APC), Malaysia which would usually be the case. As a result of the Morocco investigation, every effort has been made to minimise Netherlands the risk of this sort of thing happening again. These New Zealand measures include clearance at APC branch colonel Norway level of all communication that is about or may result Oman in termination. Pakistan Poland Portugal Armed Forces: Seriously Injured Personnel Romania Question Russia Saudi Arabia Asked by Lord Moonie Singapore To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion Slovakia of medical evacuations from Afghanistan in each Spain of the past five years was as a result of musculoskeletal Sweden injuries. [HL7803] Switzerland Turkey United Arab Emirates The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever): Between 8 October Uruguay 2007 and 28 February 2011, the defence patient tracking USA system (DPTS) recorded 2,116 aeromedical evacuations Yemen from Op Herrick due to injuries, of which 140 (7 per WA 171 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 172 cent) were shown as being due to musculoskeletal The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord injuries. The following table provides a breakdown by Sassoon): The Financial Services Authority (FSA) year: and the Bank of England are represented at the European Banking Authority (EBA) and have engaged actively Aeromeds due at working level in the design of the stress tests. The to musculo- stress tests have also been discussed at the Economic All Aeromeds skeletal Percentage Year due to injuries injuries (rounded) and Financial Committee (EFC) of the European Union, where HM Treasury is represented. The FSA 20071 79 3 4 is of the view that the assumptions are not weaker 2008 469 34 7 than those used in the 2010 Committee of European 2009 703 58 8 Banking Supervisors (CEBS) stress tests. On the contrary, 2010 762 39 5 the FSA highlights that a number of lessons have been 20112 103 6 6 learnt and that this year’s stress test is a significant All 2,116 140 7 improvement both in terms of stress scenario and in terms of consistency of assumptions, definitions and The number of aeromedical evacuations as a result stress testing methodologies. of musculoskeletal injuries recorded on the DPTS should be treated as a minimum. It is likely that some other service personnel would have been aeromedically evacuated from Op Herrick with a musculoskeletal Benefits: Disability injury but may have been placed under a different category on the DPTS. In addition, service personnel Question that suffer multiple injuries may be categorised under Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff the injury that is the most serious or requires specific nursing support rather than the musculoskeletal injury. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they 1 8 October to 31 December 2007 will take into account the findings of the report 2 1 January to 28 February 2011 (provisional) endorsed by the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services DLA mobility: sorting the facts from the fiction as part of their review of the Bahrain funding required to meet the mobility needs of those living in residential care. [HL7590] Question Asked by Lord Avebury The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): I will make representations to the United Nations have read this report, and the coalition of charities’ special procedures to make a statement on the follow-up report, DLA Mobility: sorting the facts from alleged enlistment of foreign mercenaries to support the fiction with interest. the Government of Bahrain. [HL7689] We will be considering the points raised by the report. My officials have asked for the data underlying The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth the report and would be very interested in receiving Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): UN special procedures these. are independent mechanisms and member states cannot direct those mandated under special procedures to focus on particular areas of concern. If those mandated as special procedures were to ask the UK to assist, we will help in the most appropriate way we can. Big Society We are gravely concerned at the situation in Bahrain Question and are monitoring the situation closely. We have Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark called on all parties to exercise maximum restraint and avoid violence so that a political dialogue can begin. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether have issued any guidance to Ministers on how they should promote the big society agenda as individuals. Banks: Stress Tests [HL7774] Question Asked by Lord Myners Lord Taylor of Holbeach: Many Ministers take To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether HM individual steps to support the big society, for instance, Treasury or the Financial Services Authority were through their support for civil society in their constituency, consulted on the assumption underlying the stress and it is not for government to direct this work. tests due to be conducted by the European Banking Government support Ministers in embedding the Authority; and whether they agreed that these principles of the big society within their ministerial assumptions should be weaker than those used in portfolio, for instance, through the operation of the the 2010 tests. [HL7538] Informal Ministerial Group on Big Society and Localism. WA 173 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 174

Broadcasting: Smoking also changing public attitudes towards the acceptability of the question among particular ethnic minority Question communities. Asked by Lord Laird In Scotland, a wide-ranging review of the way that ethnicity was classified was undertaken following the To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they 2001 census, to ensure the development of a classification will require broadcasters to warn viewers when for use in Scottish surveys that reflected modern smoking is featured in a broadcast. [HL7561] circumstances, met users’ information needs and had broad community support. The Scottish Government worked in partnership with the General Register Office Baroness Rawlings: Parliament has charged Ofcom for Scotland to conduct the review. The result was an with maintaining standards in broadcasting, notably ethnicity classification recommended for use in Scottish to protect the general public from harmful and offensive surveys and Scotland’s 2011 census. material. The Ofcom Broadcasting Code sets out the Some amendments were then made to the classification rules with which broadcasters must comply and includes for use in the census in Scotland, following parliamentary clear guidelines in relation to smoking in programmes consideration of the draft Census (Scotland) Act, in in particular to protect those under 18. Within the April 2010. These changes included, in the “White” framework of the code it is the responsibility of each category, the replacement of separate tick boxes for broadcaster to make judgments about what individual English, Welsh and Northern Irish, with an “Other programmes should contain and at what time they are British” tick box. As a result, the “White” category in broadcast. Enforcement of the code is a matter for Scotland’s 2011 census ethnic group question has six Ofcom, which operates independently of government. tick boxes. It is a matter for Ofcom and broadcasters to consider While the National Statistician and the Registrar any case for viewer warnings. General for Scotland have sought to retain as much comparability in questionnaire design and question wording for the censuses in England and Wales and in Census Scotland, some small variations must inevitably occur to reflect significant socio-demographic differences Question and user requirements north and south of the border. Asked by Lord Laird The ethnicity question is a good example of where such differences have occurred in each census since it To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the 2011 was first introduced in 1991. census question on ethnic group in England and The “White” categories are broadly equivalent, only Wales had five options for “White” when the Scottish differing, in Scotland, in the addition of a “Polish” version had nine options which included Polish, category—where this group form a significantly larger and has a different wording for Gypsy or Irish proportion of the ethnic minority population than in Traveller which excludes the word “Irish”; and how England and Wales, justifying a separate tick box—and overall United Kingdom figures will be calculated a separate category for “Scottish”to provide consistency and displayed given those differences. [HL7713] with the 2001 question. The omission of “Irish” from the title of the new “Gypsy/Traveller” group reflected particular sensitivities to the wording of this category Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The information requested in Scotland. falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Consultation with users is currently under way to Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. determine the scope and detail of the statistical outputs Letter from Stephen Penneck, Director General for to be produced including those for a set of harmonised ONS, to Lord Laird, dated March 2011. UK tabulations. However, although slightly different As Director General for the Office for National forms of the question are being adopted. the variants Statistics (ONS) I have been asked to reply to your will, nevertheless, as noted in the White Paper Helping recent question asking why the 2011 census question to Shape Tomorrow, allow statistics to be produced on ethnic group on England and Wales had five options which will be broadly comparable both throughout for “White” when the Scottish version had nine options the UK and with statistics from the 2001 census. which included Polish, and has a different wording for Gypsy and Irish Traveller which excludes the word Children: Sexual Exploitation “Irish”, and how overall United Kingdom figures will be calculated and displayed given those differences. Question (HL7713) Asked by Lord Hylton In England and Wales the form and content of the To ask Her Majesty’s Government when they ethnicity questions have resulted from extensive will ratify the Council of Europe Convention on consultation with users and other key stakeholders as the Protection of Children against Sexual Exploitation part of a formal consultation exercise on census topics and Abuse. [HL7819] generally in 2005, and a further consultation focused on ethnicity, identity, language and religion issues The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- from November 2006 to March 2007, including a Jones): Child sexual exploitation is an appalling crime. round of public meetings. This consultation aimed to It is a form of child sexual abuse and tackling it is an determine not only requirements for information but absolute priority for the Government. WA 175 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 176

Officials across a number of government departments Baroness Rawlings: The Minister for Culture, are currently considering the steps that would be required Communications and Creative Industries, made his to ratify the Council of Europe convention. remarks at a conference on the day after he had opened the fibre-optic connection to Nenthead Primary School and supported by information readily available Civil Service: Education and Training in the public domain. No specific definition of fast broadband was used on that occasion. Question Asked by Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope Employment: Work Programme To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to review (a) the staffing of the National Question School for Government, (b) its accommodation, Asked by Lord Knight of Weymouth and (c) the education and training which it delivers. [HL7675] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the contracted volumes for the Work Programme are re-adjusted to remain in line with changing Office Lord Taylor of Holbeach: The National School of for Budget Responsibility economic predictions. Government was considered as part of the Government’s [HL7783] Review of Public Bodies which produced proposed reforms in October 2010. The Minister confirmed in a Written Statement on 16 March 2011 (Official Report, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, col. 9-10WS, that the national school will no longer be Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud): The a non-ministerial department, with some functions expected work programme volumes will be kept under transferring to another government department. Further review throughout the life of the contracts. Volumes decisions about the national school, its staff and sites are updated as more information becomes available, are expected in due course. including Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts for the claimant count.

Consumer Prices Index Environment: Policy Question Question Asked by Lord Myners Asked by Lord Hunt of Chesterton To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they intend to issue bonds linked to the consumer price To ask Her Majesty’s Government from which index. [HL7732] institutions they will obtain independent advice on environmental policies following the proposed abolition of the Royal Commission on Environmental Pollution The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord and the Sustainable Development Commission; and Sassoon): The Government will undertake a formal how that advice will be funded to ensure it is consultation on consumer prices index (CPI)-linked independent. [HL7777] gilts once it has published its response to the Department for Work and Pensions’ consultation paper on the use of CPI to up-rate occupational pension schemes’ liabilities The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for inflation. Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Henley): The Government will use a number of mechanisms, including working through its Foresight Cybermoor Ltd Programme and with the Royal Society and the Living with Environmental Change Partnership to obtain Question independent advice to inform environmental policies. The Government will continue to fund scientific research Asked by Lord Laird to provide advice required for evidence-based policy To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to making. the Written Answer by Baroness Wilcox on 19 October In terms of sustainable development, Defra has (WA 142), in light of the fact that they do not have contributed the major share of funding to the Sustainable the information requested, on what information the Development Research Network since 2006, which Minister for Culture, Communication and Creative brings together more than 500 private and public Industries, Ed Vaizey, based his comments at the organisations and over 2,000 individuals with an interest Penrith and Border broadband conference on in sustainability both nationally and internationally. It 18 September 2010 that “Cumbria was one of the provides cost effective access to academic and business first regions to provide community broadband and expertise, shares knowledge and disseminates best practice. yesterday’s opening of Nenthead Fibremoor Due to the cross-cutting nature of sustainable connection is evidence of the region’s determination development, Defra will be seeking funding contributions to bring fast broadband access to those who do not from other government departments for the network have it”; and what was the definition used for “fast to continue to build upon what has been achieved so broadband”. [HL7648] far. WA 177 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 178

European Communities Act 1972 of self-determination is not constrained, except through Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht. Should Britain Question renounce sovereignty over Gibraltar, Article X of the Asked by Lord Stoddart of Swindon Treaty of Utrecht makes clear that Spain would be given the right of first refusal. To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Asked by Lord Ashcroft the answer by Baroness Verma on 8 March (Official Report, col. 1518–20) concerning the decision of To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether a the European Court of Justice on insurance and referendum on independence is the sole means by gender discrimination, whether they will bring forward which the citizens of Gibraltar may obtain a Bill to repeal Section 2 of the European Communities independence from the United Kingdom. [HL7682] Act 1972 to enable Parliament to set aside that decision. [HL7581] Lord Howell of Guildford: Gibraltar could become The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth independent from the UK if this were the freely and Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Section 2 of the democratically expressed wish of the people of Gibraltar. European Communities Act enables UK law to recognise We note that there are currently no proposals or obligations within the treaties which are to be given discussions on Gibraltar for a referendum on this or legal effect without further enactment. A Bill such as any other constitutional issue. There have been that described would therefore undermine the legal referendums on major constitutional issues on three basis of our membership of the European Union. As previous occasions and this is likely to continue as the this Government believe that EU membership is in the most appropriate way to assess the wishes of the UK’s national interest, we do not intend to bring population on any proposed constitutional changes. forward such a Bill. When considering the results of a referendum, the UK would be obliged to comply with obligations under the Treaty of Utrecht in which the UK undertakes Food: Allergies that should Britain renounce sovereignty of Gibraltar, Question Spain is given the right of first refusal. However, the Government will not enter into arrangements under Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark which Gibraltar will pass into the sovereignty of another state against the freely and democratically expressed To ask Her Majesty’s Government what research wishes of the people of Gibraltar. Moreover, we will they have commissioned into the possible links not enter into a process of sovereignty negotiations between mutation in the gene filaggrin and peanut with which Gibraltar is not content. allergies. [HL7841]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Government Departments: Energy Department of Health (Earl Howe): The Food Standards Agency is currently funding research to determine Certificates whether changes in skin barrier function and mutations Question in the filaggrin gene are linked to the development of food allergy, including peanut allergy. Asked by Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay This could allow those at high risk of developing To ask Her Majesty’s Government what level of food allergy to be identified and result in specific display energy certificate was awarded to the advice being given to reduce risk. Department for Culture, Media and Sport office at The results of this research are expected in 2013. 2–4 Cockspur Street in each of the past three years. [HL7624] Gibraltar Questions Baroness Rawlings: The Department for Culture, Media and Sport office at 2-4 Cockspur Street has Asked by Lord Ashcroft been awarded the following display energy certificate rating for each of the past three years. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what legal obstacles there are to self-determination for the Date Rating citizens of Gibraltar. [HL7568] Aug-08 G (187) Aug-09 G (178) The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Aug-10 G (166) Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The UK Government’s position is that we will not enter into arrangements under which Gibraltar will pass into the sovereignty of The numeric indicator, or operational rating (OR), another state against the freely and democratically is a measure of the annual CO2 emission per unit of expressed wishes of the people of Gibraltar. Moreover, area of the building compared to a value that would we will not enter into a process of sovereignty negotiations be considered typical for the particular type of building, with which Gibraltar is not content. Gibraltar’s right a rating of 100 is the average. WA 179 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 180

Government Departments: Records Gypsies and Travellers Questions Question Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by Lord Avebury To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps files in each department have been held for more they are taking to address the slow progress on site than 30 years and are not available to the public. provision for Gypsies and Travellers identified in [HL7770] the Equality and Human Rights Commission’s research report 68. [HL7690] The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally): Records retained in departments, if selected The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, for permanent preservation, are listed in the National Department for Communities and Local Government Archives catalogue and are subject to the provisions of (Baroness Hanham): We are committed to encouraging the Public Records Act. According to the National sustainable development and it remains very important Archives Catalogue there are 22,318 files retained in that local authorities continue to plan for the future of departments that are over 30 years old. their communities. Regional strategies and the top-down Retained records are still subject to the Freedom of targets they imposed did not work. The opposition Information Act. It is not possible therefore to identify generated by regional strategies meant that they were how many are unavailable to the public, but members badly delayed. This and the associated uncertainty of the public may make a request to have the file made meant that they failed to provide a clear basis for available under the Freedom of Information Act. Records planning and development decisions. The Localism are listed in the catalogue by their creating body (not Bill proposes to abolish regional strategies. Instead, that which currently has custody) and machinery of local authorities will be responsible for determining government changes over time mean it is not possible the right level of site provision in their area to meet to provide a detailed breakdown by department. local need and historical demand, in consultation with local communities. Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark From April 2011, councils will be given incentives To ask Her Majesty’s Government which through the new homes bonus scheme to deliver new department holds the file that has been kept confidential housing, including Traveller sites. for the longest; and for how long it has been kept. We have secured £60 million Traveller pitch funding [HL7771] over the spending review, starting from this April. Authorities will be able to bid for a share of the Lord McNally: The oldest files retained on the funding for the development of new sites and the grounds of confidentiality are Metropolitan Police refurbishment of existing sites. files containing architectural plans and drawings (the National Archives file reference MEPO 9). The files relate to police stations and married quarters. While Higher Education: Funding the buildings are still in police use the plans and drawings are retained by the department under Question Section 3(4) of the Public Records Act 1958 and are Asked by Lord Willis of Knaresborough closed to the public for security reasons; but they are transferred to the National Archives when the buildings To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many have ceased to be used by police, as the result of either students studying full-time in higher education currently demolition or passing out of police ownership. receive support for living costs through government Of these the oldest file is MEPO 9/98, New Police grants and loans; and what is the total resource Court, Lambeth (1868). allocation. [HL7550]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Government: Policy Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Question (Lord Henley): The most recent year for which student numbers are available is academic year 2009-10. Asked by Lord Tebbit Applicants and related cash expenditure or amount To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the awarded is shown in the table below. statement by the Prime Minister made on Al Jazeera Table 1: Applicants Domiciled in England Paid or Awarded Student TV that “I don’t believe an in/out referendum is Support, Academic Year 2009/10 right, because I don’t believe that leaving the European Cash expenditure or Union would be in Britain’s interests” represents Applicants Paid or amount awarded [1] [2] government policy. [HL7553] Awarded (000s) (£m) Maintenance Loans 819.5 2,946.0 The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Maintenance, HE 545.7 1,213.2 and Special Support Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): Yes, this represents Grants government policy. WA 181 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 182

Table 1: Applicants Domiciled in England Paid or Awarded Student These measures have included the closure by French Support, Academic Year 2009/10 authorities of the illegal encampment known as the Cash expenditure or jungle in Calais in September 2009, increased joint Applicants Paid or amount awarded Awarded (000s) [1] (£m) [2] working between the French authorities and UK Border Agency at the northern French ports, and the use of Disabled Students 40.4 82.6 improved technology. The French authorities have Allowance [3] continued to take swift action to dismantle any illegal (Provisional) camps that spring up in the Calais area. Other Targeted 39.2 118.3 Support [4] These measures have led to a sustained reduction during 2010 of approximately 75 per cent in the number Source: Student Loans Company of attempts to penetrate illegally the UK border through the ports of Calais, Coquelles and Dunkerque. Our The nearest comparable year for resource funding two countries continue to work together very closely is financial year 2009-10: to ensure our strong border is maintained. Table 2: Expenditure for Fulltime Students Domiciled in England Financial, Year 2009-10 Inflation £k Question Maintenance Loans—RAB terms [5] 725,253 Maintenance, HE and Special Support Grants 1,155,162 Asked by Lord Myners Disabled Students Allowance 87,635 Other Targeted Support 118,265 To ask Her Majesty’s Government why the United Kingdom has the third highest rate of inflation in [1] Students can receive more than one type of support. the G20; and what action is being taken to lower it. Maintenance loan and disabled student allowance (DSA) figures show the number of students paid. Grants are paid in combined [HL7731] payments, so those paid individual grants types cannot be separated. Figures for grants and other targeted support The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord therefore show the number of applicants awarded support. Figures will include small numbers of part-time initial teacher Sassoon): UK inflation has been elevated due to temporary training applicants, who receive similar support to full-time factors, such as the past depreciation of sterling, high students. global commodity prices and the increase in the standard [2] Loans cash expenditure is face value of the loan to students for rate of VAT to 20 per cent. The Office for Budget maintenance: it is not resource outturn, which is only available by Responsibility (OBR) is responsible for producing financial year. Maintenance loan and DSA cash expenditure independent economic and fiscal forecasts. The OBR figures are based on payments. Grants are paid in combined has published a full analysis of recent developments payments, therefore it is not possible to determine amounts paid and the prospects for inflation alongside today’s Budget. for the individual grant types. Therefore grant and other targeted support amounts are amounts awarded. It is the Monetary Policy Committee (MPC) of the [3] DSA figures for 2009-10 are provisional as payments to Bank of England which is responsible for maintaining suppliers are made on receipt of invoices which continues well price stability. The MPC sets policy based on its after the end of the academic year. judgment of the balance of risks to inflation in the [4] Other targeted support covers adult dependants grant, medium-term. parental learning allowance, childcare grant and travel grant. [5] The RAB charge is an estimate of the percentage of the face value of loans issued in a given year which reflects the resource Iraq: Camp Ashraf cost over the expected life of the loan to the Government of making the loans. These costs are made up of the interest rate Questions subsidy of loans together with the costs of policy write off on grounds of age, disability or death. Asked by Lord Corbett of Castle Vale To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to Immigration the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford on 9 March (WA 410), whether they will ask the Question United Kingdom ambassador to Iraq to establish Asked by Lord Condon the purpose of 200 loudspeakers put around the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their perimeter of Camp Ashraf. [HL7641] assessment of the impact of the measures taken by the French authorities to inhibit the movement of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth potential illegal immigrants from the Calais region Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We are aware of to ports in Kent. [HL7750] reports that loudspeakers are being used outside the Camp Ashraf entrance. The Government of Iraq have The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- publicly stated that the purpose of the loudspeakers is Jones): Following the signing by UK and French to allow family members to communicate with residents Ministers of immigration agreements in 2009 and inside Camp Ashraf, as they have apparently been 2010, we have co-operated closely with the French forbidden any contact by the camp’s leadership. authorities to fight illegal migration and trafficking On 20 February 2011, our representatives met UN networks by implementing a number of measures to representatives and the Iraqi Government’s Ashraf jointly strengthen the common border. Committee to discuss the situation at Camp Ashraf. WA 183 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 184

We urged the Iraqi Government to ensure the residents’ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth human rights are respected and we continue to encourage Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The situation in both sides to engage in constructive dialogue leading Cote d’Ivoire remains volatile. The Government continue to a lasting, and peaceful, resolution. to be very concerned at the deteriorating security situation and the increasing levels of violence. We are Asked by Lord Corbett of Castle Vale monitoring events closely and working with our To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to international partners in support of the African Union’s the Written Answer by Lord Howell of Guildford efforts to find a peaceful resolution to the crisis which on 9 March (WA 410), what is the proper title, respects democratic principles. The UK urges Mr Gbagbo purpose, membership and position within government to respect the recommendations of the African Union of the government of Iraq’s Ashraf Committee. and stand down to allow President Alassane Ouattara [HL7642] to take his place leading a unity government as Cote d’Ivoire’s legitimately elected head of state. Lord Howell of Guildford: We understand that the Iraqi Government’s Ashraf Committee is composed Justice: Compensation of members from the Prime Minister’s Office, Ministry of Human Rights, Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Question Foreign Affairs, Ministry of Defence, Ministry of Asked by Lord Clement-Jones Interior and Ministry of Immigration and Displaced People. The Ashraf Committee reports directly to the To ask Her Majesty’s Government what budget Iraqi Prime Minister, Nouri Al-Maliki. The Ashraf provision they have made to meet compensation Committee is responsible for implementing the Iraqi claims from those refused legal aid who subsequently Government’s policies regarding Camp Ashraf. take their case to the European Court of Human Rights and win. [HL7658]

Israel and Palestine The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Question McNally): The Government have no specific budget provision to meet compensation claims in such cases. Asked by Baroness Tonge These cases are considered as contingent liabilities (ie liabilities that may or may not be incurred depending To ask Her Majesty’s Government what on the outcome of a future event). So, in line with HM representations they have made to the Government Treasury guidance, they are dealt with separately from of Israel regarding the condition of the village the budgeting process. All departments are expected of Abu Al Ajaj in Area C of the Jordan Valley. to cover any compensation costs by making offsetting [HL7500] savings from their departmental expenditure limit.

The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): According to the Justice: Local Criminal Justice Boards UN, in 2010 the Israeli authorities demolished 113 residential Question structures in the West Bank displacing 478 people, and they knocked down a further 240 Palestinian structures Asked by Lord Clement-Jones (for example, animal shelters). This represents a 60 per To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they cent increase in demolitions compared to 2009. will issue guidance that defence solicitors should be The UN reports that thus far in 2011 the Israeli represented on local criminal justice boards to ensure authorities have demolished 96 Palestinian structures, that the boards are fully representative of local including 32 residential buildings, in the West Bank. criminal justice communities. [HL7659] One hundred and seventy-five people, more than half of them children, have lost their homes. The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord We have a strong record of lobbying hard on issues McNally): ): All local criminal justice boards are expected relating to house demolitions and settlement building to have arrangements to engage and involve the defence and we continue to pursue this. Our embassy in Tel community. This ranges from regular meetings with Aviv has further raised these issues with the Government defence representatives, defence membership of sub-groups of Israel over the past week and we have also raised of the board to co-option of a defence representative these issues with the Israeli embassy in London. on to the board.

Ivory Coast Michael Savage Question Question Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Asked by Lord Laird To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their To ask Her Majesty’s Government on what grounds assessment of the situation in Côte d’Ivoire. Michael Savage is excluded from the United Kingdom; [HL7664] and under what legislation. [HL7763] WA 185 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 186

The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- to its textbooks over the past decade and found no Jones): Michael Savage was excluded from the UK for evidence of anti-Semitism. But at least one study has making statements that brought him within scope of shown that both Israeli and Palestinian textbooks the published unacceptable behaviour policy.He expressed could do better and include more positive messages on views that seek to provoke others to serious criminal these issues. We support that message. acts and foster hatred which might lead to inter- We condemn all instances of violence and community violence. discrimination against individuals and groups because Exclusion decisions are taken personally by the of their race, faith or belief. Home Secretary using her non-statutory power which enables her to exclude from the UK non-UK nationals whose presence she considers would not be conducive Political Parties: Cranborne Money to the public good. Questions NHS: Productivity Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark Question To ask the Leader of the House how much in Asked by Lord Mawhinney “Cranborne money”was paid to the Liberal Democrat To ask Her Majesty’s Government what were the party from May 1997 to May 2010. [HL7724] percentage figures for NHS productivity in 1996 To ask the Leader of the House how much in and in each subsequent year. [HL7699] “Cranborne money” was paid to the Conservative Party from May 1997 to May 2010. [HL7726] The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe): United Kingdom National Health Service productivity, as measured by The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord the Office for National Statistics, is given in the following Strathclyde): The amount of “Cranborne money” that table. was paid to the Conservative and Liberal Democrat Growth in UK NHS Productivity 1996-2008 parties from May 1997 to May 2010 is shown in the Year UK NHS Productivity Growth table below.

1996 -1.1% Conservatives Liberal Democrat 1997 0.2% 1998 -0.5% 1997-98 £94,151.31 £30,780.00 1999 0.5% 1998-99 £107,089.00 £31,758.00 2000 -0.5% 1999-2000 £177,748.00 £67,707.00 2001 1.2% 2000-01 £230,811.00 £61,181.00 2002 -2.0% 2001-02 £226,552.00 £68,278.00 2003 -1.6% 2002-03 £390,210.00 £194,998.00 2004 0.0% 2003-04 £343,873.00 £201,045.00 2005 0.1% 2004-05 £358,353.00 £206,272.00 2006 1.6% 2005-06 £426,236.42 £212,863.00 2007 -0.3% 2006-07 £430,177.00 £217,982.00 2008 -0.7% 2007-08 £436,399.00 £228,445.00 2008-09 £462,485.00 £237,126.00 Source: Penaloza M, Wild R, Hardie M and Mills K (2010) Public 2009-10 £474,927.00 £237,126.00 Service Output, Input and Productivity: Healthcare, Office for Total £4,159,011.73 £1,995,561 00 National Statistics Notes: 1. Figures are rounded to 1 decimal place. Railways: Light Rail Vehicles 2. Productivity estimates for 2009 and beyond are not yet available. Questions Palestine Asked by Lord Berkeley Question To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Earl Attlee on 3 March (Official Asked by Lord Turnberg Report, col. 1172), what are the issues of ride quality To ask Her Majesty’s Government what and other technical issues associated with light representations they have made to the Palestinian railway vehicles. [HL7400] leadership about the reported teaching of race hatred in Palestinian schools. [HL7815] Earl Attlee: Light rail vehicles tend to be sensitive The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth to lower quality track as they have less sophisticated Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): We take seriously suspension systems. any reports of textbooks being used to promote anti- In the case of the class 139 Parry People Mover, the Semitism. We also recognise this is a controversial wheelbase is short compared with the length of the area. However, recent independent studies have shown vehicle and it has a simple rubber chevron suspension that the Palestinian Authority has made real improvements system that gives it a relatively hard ride. This vehicle WA 187 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 188 has proven to be sensitive to features of jointed track package co-ordinated by the International Monetary common in secondary line such as dipped and misaligned Fund (IMF) and the European Union. It was not joints. sensible for the UK to come up with its own stand-alone The Stourbridge Town branch had many dipped package. and misaligned joints at the time the class 139 Parry The policy conditionality for the international support People Mover was introduced, although this was not a package—agreed by the Eurogroup, the ECOFIN Council serious problem for class 153 single car diesel unit that and the IMF—is critical to the achievement of the had traditionally provided the service. stated macroeconomic goals of the package and reflects Further information can be obtained from: Network the economic nature of the problems, which the package Rail, Kings Place, 90 York Way, London, N1 9AG. aims to address. Asked by Lord Berkeley Salt Awareness Week To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the answer by Earl Attlee on 3 March (Official Question Report, col. 1173), what changes Network Rail Asked by Lord Kennedy of Southwark made to the infrastructure in order to improve the ride quality on light railways; and whether the track To ask the Chairman of Committees what the conformed to European and United Kingdom House of Lords’ catering services are doing to standards before and after work was undertaken. promote Salt Awareness Week. [HL7881] [HL7401] The Chairman of Committees (Lord Brabazon of Earl Attlee: Network Rail has undertaken work on Tara): There are no plans to promote Salt Awareness the Stourbridge Junction to Stourbridge Town branch Week in the House. in order to improve ride quality for the class 139 Parry People Mover. The type of work undertaken includes joint straightening and spot sleeper replacement. Schools: GCSEs This line is maintained in accordance with its standards Questions for a category 6 line. This category is suitable for lines Asked by Lord Hylton with low speed (20 mph) and low tonnage <2.5 EMGTPA (equivalent million gross tonnes per annum) and provided To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to an adequate ride for typical heavy rail rolling stock the Written Answer by Lord Hill of Oareford on such as the class 153 single car diesel unit. 7 March (WA 374–5), why certain subjects are Network Rail has indicated that for future introductions included in the English baccalaureate in order to of rolling stock such as the Parry People Mover, it encourage wider take-up; and whether any separate would propose that jointed track be relayed with cascaded assessment has been made of the merits of each continuously welded track, eliminating potential faults subject for inclusion. [HL7526] at joints. Further information can be obtained from: Network The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Rail, Kings Place, 90 York Way, London, N1 9AG. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): A focus on studying a core of academic subjects to age 16 is seen across many high performing countries, such as France, the Republic of Ireland: Financial Support Netherlands and Singapore. We have used the approach in these countries of having an academic core as the Questions basis for the English baccalaureate. Moreover, subjects Asked by Lord Laird included in the English baccalaureate have been included to ensure that all pupils have the opportunity to study To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether in such a broad core and that doors are not closed off to any further discussions with the Government of the them in terms of progression to further and higher Republic of Ireland about possible loans to that education. We very much welcome the Russell Group government they will require any undertakings about guide on making informed choices for post-16 education1 the Republic of Ireland complying with the Universal that explicitly points to the value of studying these Declaration of Human Rights of 1948. [HL7711] subjects. To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether in 1 http://russellgroup.org/Informed%20Choices%20final.pdf any further discussions with the Government of the Asked by Baroness Finlay of Llandaff Republic of Ireland about possible loans to that government they will require any undertakings that To ask Her Majesty’s Government what financial any officially sponsored celebrations concerning impact they forecast the omission of music from the murder of members of the Royal Irish Constabulary the English baccalaureate will have on the United and Royal Ulster Constabulary would end.[HL7712] Kingdom’s creative and cultural sector. [HL7799] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord will follow the advice of Darren Henley’s review of Sassoon): Although technically bilateral, the UK loan music education in England and include music in to Ireland forms part of a larger, multilateral financial the English baccalaureate. [HL7800] WA 189 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 190

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact teaching, including giving teachers the flexibility to they forecast the omission of music from the English use their judgment about how best to deliver PSHE baccalaureate will have on the skills available to the education. United Kingdom’s creative and cultural sector. [HL7801] Sex Offenders To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment Question they have made of the impact on team-working skills and self-discipline of the decision to omit Asked by Lord Hylton music from the English baccalaureate. [HL7802] To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they Lord Hill of Oareford: We are concerned that the will review information held about British nationals number of pupils, especially those in disadvantaged convicted of sexual offences both at home and areas, who receive a broad education in core academic abroad so that accurate lists of names and addresses subjects is far too small. We want to encourage more are available to police and welfare authorities by pupils to take these core subjects and to bring about the end of 2011. [HL7821] greater fairness of opportunity. The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Neville- The English baccalaureate does not include all the Jones): Details of sex offenders convicted in the UK subjects worthy of study. We recognise that study in are stored on the ViSOR database, which holds other subjects will be just as valuable to pupils and we information on a range of offender types who are encourage all pupils to study non-English baccalaureate considered to pose a risk of harm to the public, subjects alongside the English baccalaureate in order including registered sex offenders (RSOs). This to benefit from a well rounded education. This is why information is available to the police and other public we have kept the number of core subjects in the protection agencies. English baccalaureate small enough to allow wider Notifications of British nationals convicted outside study. Subjects, such as music, which do not count the United Kingdom are received by the Association towards the English baccalaureate, can and will play a of Chief Police Officers Criminal Records Office (ACRO) part in a well rounded, rigorous education. Achievement and placed on the police national computer. Where in these subjects, as with all GCSEs, will continue to appropriate, offenders’ details are placed on ViSOR. be recognised in the performance tables as part of the ACRO also makes extensive enquiries to ensure that A*-C measure. However, we remain open to arguments accurate lists of names and addresses are available to about how we can further improve every measure the police and welfare authorities. ACRO in conjunction in the performance tables—including the English with the National Offender Management Service at baccalaureate. the Ministry of Justice is currently reviewing arrangements We recognise the importance of music. That is why between the UK and other countries on the exchange we commissioned Darren Henley’s review of music of information held on sexual offenders. education. We will respond to his recommendations with a new national plan for music education in the Turkey summer. We would encourage all schools to make opportunities available for their students to study music Question to GCSE as a valuable subject in its own right and to Asked by Lord Laird support those who want to progress to further study in the subject and to associated careers. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have made to the Government Schools: Sex Education of Turkey about the extradition of Kevin Eugene O’Kane. [HL7705] Question Asked by Lord Patel of Blackburn The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): As a matter of To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their long-standing policy and practice, the Government assessment of the merits of sex education in primary will neither confirm nor deny the existence of an schools; and whether they plan to review it.[HL7607] extradition request until such time as a person has The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for been arrested in relation to the request. Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford): The coalition Government believe that all children need high quality sex and Turks and Caicos Islands relationships education (SRE) so they can make wise Questions and informed choices. There is no requirement on primary schools to provide sex education but many Asked by Lord Ashcroft choose to teach it because they see age-appropriate To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps SRE as an important aspect of children’s learning and they are taking to address the causes of civil unrest development, as well as keeping them safe and healthy. in the Turks and Caicos Islands. [HL7680] SRE is taught as part of non-statutory personal, social, health and economic (PSHE) education. In the The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth schools White Paper, The Importance of Teaching,we Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): The central demand announced our intention to conduct an internal review of the demonstrators during the recent demonstrations of PSHE, including SRE, to determine how we can in the Turks and Caicos Islands was that a date be set support schools to improve the quality of all PSHE for elections. WA 191 Written Answers[23 MARCH 2011] Written Answers WA 192

In their joint Written Ministerial Statement made accountability programme (together with other on 9 December, the Minister for the Overseas Territories development partners) that will improve the transparency and the Minister of State for International Development and comprehensiveness of the budget process, streamline set out the milestones that the British Government public procurement procedures and provide technical currently assess would need to be met before elections support to key oversight mechanisms, such as the could take place. These milestones do not include Office of the Auditor General. We have also provided everything that will need to be done before elections technical assistance to the Inspectorate of Government take place, but they are, in the Government’s view at and the Director of Public Prosecutions properly to this stage, the minimum preconditions before the Turks investigate CHOGM related corruption offences. and Caicos Islands can return to elected government. Our development aid is now being targeted to support It is hoped that these milestones will be met in time for local accountability mechanisms and civil society elections to take place in 2012. organisations to work more constructively with the The governor remains open to dialogue with Government of Uganda, in order to ensure that responsible community representatives to discuss their corruption and accountability issues remain high on concerns. the political agenda. Asked by Lord Ashcroft To ask Her Majesty’s Government what impact UN Summits civil unrest in Turks and Caicos Islands is having on local tourism. [HL7681] Questions Asked by Lord Hunt of Chesterton Lord Howell of Guildford: The Turks and Caicos To ask Her Majesty’s Government what outcome Hotel and Tourism Association said in a statement on they are seeking through their participation in the 10 March 2011 that the demonstrations had in no way United Nations Conference on Sustainable disturbed the main tourism areas on the island of Development Rio +20 in 2012; and what consultations Providenciales. they will have with interested parties and Parliament The airport remained open and operated normally, in preparation for the conference. [HL7775] and we understand that no flights were cancelled as a direct result of the actions by the demonstrators. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Uganda (Lord Henley): Rio+20 offers a good opportunity to Question deliver our objectives on the two themes of the meeting: the green economy, in the context of sustainable Asked by Lord Sheikh development and poverty reduction; and the institutional framework for sustainable development. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps We want Rio+20 to agree specific measures which they will take to assist the Government of Uganda will contribute to low carbon, resource efficient and in combating corruption. [HL7660] climate resilient growth. And we are working with our EU partners to strengthen the arrangements for The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth sustainable development, and international environmental, Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): An important part governance. of our continuing development agreement with the We will be consulting Parliament and interested Ugandan Government, as my honourable friend the parties as we develop the UK’s objectives. Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for International Development (Stephen O’Brien) made clear when Asked by Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer informing them of the outcome of the UK’s bilateral To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are their aid review, is their commitment and actions to strengthen main objectives for Rio Earth Summit 2012; what public financial management and tackle corruption. preparations they are making for the summit; which This includes sanctioning and prosecuting those found departments are involved in preparing papers and guilty of corruption related offences. briefings; and how many staff are working full-time We and other development partners were concerned on preparations. [HL7849] at the lack of response from the Ugandan Government to allegations of abuse and misappropriation of funds for the 2007 Commonwealth Heads of Government Lord Henley: Rio+20 offers a good opportunity to Meeting (CHOGM), and failure to act on the Public deliver our objectives on the two themes of the meeting: Accounts Committee’s report. The UK has withheld a the green economy, in the context of sustainable total of £7.5 million in budget support during the development and poverty reduction, and the institutional previous two financial years due to that lack of framework for sustainable development. responsiveness. We want Rio+20 to agree specific measures which A significant part of our development aid to Uganda will contribute to low carbon, resource efficient and is dedicated to helping improve accountability in the climate resilient growth. We are working with our EU spending of public funds. We are helping the Government partners to strengthen the arrangements for sustainable of Uganda implement a financial management and development and international environmental governance. WA 193 Written Answers[LORDS] Written Answers WA 194

We will be consulting Parliament and interested services and devolve power. However, we fully recognise parties as we develop the UK’s objectives. that in the short-term many organisations may be An inter-departmental group, chaired by Defra, is concerned about potential budget cuts. charged with the preparations for Rio+20, and includes members from FCO, HMT, DECC, DfID and BIS. In The Government have therefore put in place a Defra there are currently two full-time equivalent £100 million Transition Fund to support those employees working on Rio+20. organisations most reliant on state funding to make the transition to new opportunities. Successful applicants are currently determining how best to spend this funding Voluntary and Community Sector to reshape their organisations. Therefore, it is not Question currently possible to say what proportion of this fund will be spent on redundancy payments. Asked by Lord Beecham Spending decisions are a matter for local authorities. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what provision However, at the start of February, the Minister for they propose to make available to voluntary and Decentralisation wrote to local authorities to gain a community organisations to help meet the costs of better understanding as to how they are strengthening redundancy and severance payments incurred as a their ties with the voluntary and community sector. In result of cuts in central or local government funding. addition, the Secretary of State said, at the start of [HL7577] this month, if councils were being high-handed and disregarding reasonable expectations, Ministers would The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department take action. We are paying close attention to what for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Hanham): local authorities, individuals and community groups The big society presents a great opportunity for voluntary have been telling us, and we are considering how best and community organisations as we open up public to respond. Wednesday 23 March 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN STATEMENTS

Col. No. Col. No. Council Tax ...... 61 Planning ...... 62 Debt and Reserves Management...... 62

Wednesday 23 March 2011

ALPHABETICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. Afghanistan and Iraq: Civilian Deaths ...... 167 Gypsies and Travellers ...... 180

Agriculture: Single Farm Payments ...... 167 Higher Education: Funding ...... 180 Airports: Thames Estuary...... 168 Immigration...... 181 Armed Forces: Aircraft...... 168 Inflation...... 182 Armed Forces: Foot Patrol...... 168 Iraq: Camp Ashraf...... 182 Armed Forces: Joint Military Exercise...... 169 Israel and Palestine ...... 183 Armed Forces: Medals...... 170

Armed Forces: Redundancy...... 170 Ivory Coast...... 183

Armed Forces: Seriously Injured Personnel ...... 170 Justice: Compensation ...... 184

Bahrain...... 171 Justice: Local Criminal Justice Boards...... 184

Banks: Stress Tests...... 171 Michael Savage ...... 184 Benefits: Disability...... 172 NHS: Productivity ...... 185 Big Society...... 172 Palestine...... 185 Broadcasting: Smoking...... 173 Political Parties: Cranborne Money...... 186 Census ...... 173 Railways: Light Rail Vehicles...... 186 Children: Sexual Exploitation...... 174

Civil Service: Education and Training...... 175 Republic of Ireland: Financial Support ...... 187

Consumer Prices Index ...... 175 Salt Awareness Week...... 188

Cybermoor Ltd...... 175 Schools: GCSEs...... 188 Employment: Work Programme ...... 176 Schools: Sex Education...... 189 Environment: Policy...... 176 Sex Offenders...... 190 European Communities Act 1972 ...... 177 Turkey...... 190 Food: Allergies...... 177 Turks and Caicos Islands ...... 190 Gibraltar...... 177 Uganda...... 191 Government Departments: Energy Certificates...... 178

Government Departments: Records...... 179 UN Summits...... 192

Government: Policy ...... 179 Voluntary and Community Sector ...... 193 NUMERICAL INDEX TO WRITTEN ANSWERS

Col. No. Col. No. [HL7212] ...... 168 [HL7690] ...... 180

[HL7400] ...... 186 [HL7699] ...... 185

[HL7401] ...... 187 [HL7700] ...... 170

[HL7500] ...... 183 [HL7705] ...... 190

[HL7526] ...... 188 [HL7711] ...... 187

[HL7538] ...... 171 [HL7712] ...... 187

[HL7550] ...... 180 [HL7713] ...... 173

[HL7553] ...... 179 [HL7724] ...... 186

[HL7561] ...... 173 [HL7726] ...... 186

[HL7568] ...... 177 [HL7727] ...... 168

[HL7569] ...... 170 [HL7731] ...... 182

[HL7577] ...... 193 [HL7732] ...... 175

[HL7580] ...... 167 [HL7750] ...... 181

[HL7581] ...... 177 [HL7763] ...... 184

[HL7585] ...... 169 [HL7770] ...... 179

[HL7590] ...... 172 [HL7771] ...... 179

[HL7607] ...... 189 [HL7774] ...... 172 [HL7775] ...... 192 [HL7624] ...... 178 [HL7777] ...... 176 [HL7636] ...... 168 [HL7779] ...... 167 [HL7641] ...... 182 [HL7783] ...... 176 [HL7642] ...... 183 [HL7799] ...... 188 [HL7648] ...... 175 [HL7800] ...... 188 [HL7658] ...... 184 [HL7801] ...... 189 [HL7659] ...... 184 [HL7802] ...... 189 [HL7660] ...... 191 [HL7803] ...... 170 [HL7664] ...... 183 [HL7815] ...... 185 [HL7675] ...... 175 [HL7819] ...... 174

[HL7680] ...... 190 [HL7821] ...... 190

[HL7681] ...... 191 [HL7841] ...... 177

[HL7682] ...... 178 [HL7849] ...... 192

[HL7689] ...... 171 [HL7881] ...... 188 Volume 726 Wednesday No. 130 23 March 2011

CONTENTS

Wednesday 23 March 2011 Questions Extradition: Gary McKinnon...... 729 Video Recordings Act 2010 ...... 731 Wales: Organ Donation...... 733 Young People: Custody ...... 736 Hereditary Peers By-election Announcement ...... 738 Draft Defamation Bill Motion to Approve ...... 738 Code of Recommended Practice on Local Authority Publicity Order of Commitment Discharged ...... 739 Local Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (England and Wales) (Amendment) Regulations 2011 Motion to Approve ...... 739 Housing and Regeneration Act 2008 (Consequential Amendments to the Mobile Homes Act 1983) Order 2011 Mobile Homes Act 1983 (Amendment of Schedule 1 and Consequential Amendments) (England) Order 2011 Mobile Homes Act 1983 (Jurisdiction of Residential Property Tribunals) (England) Order 2011 Motions to Approve...... 739 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Report (1st Day) ...... 739 Ecclesiastical Fees (Amendment) Measure...... 794 Care of Cathedrals Measure...... 803 Mission and Pastoral Measure Motions to Present for Royal Assent...... 804 Public Bodies Bill [HL] Report (1st Day) (Continued)...... 804 Grand Committee Nine Statutory Instruments Considered in Grand Committee ...... GC 101 Written Statements...... WS 61 Written Answers...... WA 167