Supreme Court of Tfje Uniteti States
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LIBRARY SUPREME COURT, U. S. In the Supreme Court of tfje Uniteti states KINNEY KINMON LAU, a MINOR )' BY AND THROUGH MRS. KAM WAX ) LAU, HIS GUARDIAN AD LITEM, ) ET AL., ) ) Petitioner, ) MO. 72-6520 ) vs } ) ALAN H, NICHOLS, ET AL,, ) ) Respondents, ) Washington, D. C, December 10, 1973 Pages 1 thru 68 Duplication or copying of this transcript by photographic, electrostatic or other CD SUPREME m MARSHAL facsimile means is prohibited under the o order form agreement. CO RECEDED COURT, ’ S OFFICE U.S HOOVER REPORTING COMPANY, INC. Official 'Reporters Washington, D. C. 546-6666 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES KINNEY KINMOH LAU, a MINOR BY AND THROUGH MRS. KAM WAX LAU, HIS GUARDIAN AD LITEM, ET AL., Petitioners, v. No. 72-6520 ALAN H. NICHOLS, ET AL., Respondents. Washington, D. C. Monday, December 10., 1973 The above-entitled matter came on for argument at 11:08 o’clock a.m. BEFORE: WARREN E. BURGER, Chief Justice of the United States WILLIAM O. DOUGLAS, Associate Justice WILLIAM J. BRENNAN, JR., Associate Justice POTTER STEWART, Associate Justice BYRON R. WHITE, Associate Justice THURGOOD MARSHALL, Associate Justice HARRY A. BLACKMUN, Associate Justice LEWIS F. POWELL, JR., Associate Justice WILLIAM H. REHNQUIST, Associate Justice APPEARANCES: EDWARD H. STEINMAN, ESQ., Washington, D„ C.; for the Petitioners. J. STANLEY POTTINGER, ESQ., Assistant Attorney General, Department of Justice, Washington, D. C.; for the United States, as amicus curiae, supporting petitioners. THOMAS M. O'CONNOR, ESQ., City Attorney, San Francisco, California; for the Respondents. CONTENTS ORAL ARGUMENT OP: PAGE Edward H. Steinman, Esq», For the Petitioners 3 In Rebuttal 58 J. Stanley Pottinger, Esq,, For the Petitioners 20 Thomas M. O’Connor, Esq,, For the Respondents 32 * # * Afternoon session begins at page 40, 3 PROCEEDINGS MR. CHIEF JUSTICE BURGER: We will hear arguments next in No. 72-6520, Lau, Et al. v. Nichols. Mr. Sfceinman, you may proceed whenever you are ready. ORAL ARGUMENT OF EDWARD H. STEINMAN, ESQ., ON BEHALF OF PETITIONERS MR. STEINMAN: Thank you. Mr. Chief Justice, and may it please the Court: I wish to devote the first 20 minutes of my opening argument to the constitutional issued raised in this case. I would then be followed by Mr. J. Stanley Pottinger, Assistant Attorney General of the United States, who will address himself to the statutory violations of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The issue in this case concerns the discrimination suffered by nearly 1,800 non-English speaking Chinese students in San Francisco in the provision of educational benefits and opportunities. Both the Federal District Court and the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals below were satisfied that so long as the San Francisco school system provides the same instruction, the same material, and the same teachers to all students, the equal pro tection clause is satisfied. Regardless of the fact that these students, since they do not understand English, and since they are sitting in classes where English is the instruction -- was the language of instruction, regardless of the fact that these 4 students cannot learn., Q Mr. Steinman, might I interrupt you. Actually, are these 1,300 more or less students — they are referred to in your brief and I think in the record as Chinese students. They are mt Chinese Americans, they are Chinese? MR. STEINMAN: They are both Chinese Americans, they are both native born and they are also foreign born, Your Honor, The school system, in answer to interrogatories, said that it does not keep records on the origin of birth or on citizenship of the students. But of the seven named petitioners before this Court, five of them are native born American citizens. Q They are? MR. STEINMAN: Yes, five of them, David Leong, David Sun, Judy Sun, Karen Yee and Joan Yee. Q There has been a good deal of recent immigration into the United States, and particularly into the City of San Francisco, is there not, from Taiwan and — MR. STEINMAN: Oh, definitely. I think it is clear that many members of the 1,800 students that we represent are recent immigrants. I think though that one thing must be pointed out, which was pointed out in the reply brief of pe titioners, that the immigration laws were relaxed in the mid sixties and the new laws went into effect on July 1, 1968. Yet the defendants, in their own survey conducted in November of 1967, seven months before the new immigration laws even went into effect, admitted that there were close to 2,000 non- English-speaking Chinese students who, as petitioners are before you, effectively pursued an education, Q And this 1,000 is out of how many Chinese or Chinese American students in the school population of San Francisco? MR. STEINMAN: The school population of San Francisco, in the record of the case, there are approximately — one figure is 13,000 from the City Attorney, one figure is 15,000 from the school district. There are also 3,000 Chinese speaking students in San Francisco, of which the petitioners represent approxi mately 63 percent of those. The petitioners represent those Chinese speaking students, Your Honor, who receive nothing but the regular instruction in English. In the lower court below, there was another class, group of petitioners who were non-English speaking Chinese students who did receive some special help. Those petitioners are not before this Court. Q What was that 13,000 or 15,000 figure? MR. STEINMAN: The total number of Chinese students within the San Francisco school system. Q So that this group of 1,800 is something more than 10 percent? MR. STEINMAN: Probably between 10 and 15 percent, depending on which figure you use. 6 Q I was just curious whether or not native born American citizens in San Francisco grow up not knowing English, or whether this group does and it does embrace primarily recent emigres from Taiwan and elsewhere, and Ilong Kong? MR. STEINMAN: I don’t think that --- based on the facts in the case, Your Honor, although the school system does not break it down, as I said, seven months before the immigra tion laws even went into effect, the school system admitted that there were nearly 2,000 non-English speaking Chinese students who receive nothing. The November '67 survey admitted that there were approximately 2,400 non-Enqlish speaking Chinese sfciidents within the entire school district, and of those 2,400 nearly 2.000 were of the same type of dilemma confronting the petitioners. They don't speak English, they don't understand English, and yet their entire instructional program is in regu lar classes where English is the language. Q Yes, I know the argument, but mv query is to why, it was as to whv they don't speak English, and I think that may have something to do with this case. MR.STEINMAN: I think why they don't speak English — of course, it is not in the record, but I think that this Court can take cognizance of the fact that the Chinese community in San Francisco is what we refer to as a ghetto, it is quite insular. And when the students who are born in this country cane to the schools, they do not have facilities in English. 7 And unfortunately the actions of the school system perpetuate that inability to speak English. Q Well, in the Chinatown part of San Francisco, is it true that most of the people there don't speak English? MR. STEINMAN: I don’t know the facts — Q The fact that it is a ghetto doesn’t answer that question one way or the other. MR. STEINMAN: I don’t know, I don’t think we can speak in terms of most. I think we can speak in terms of the 1,800 students, a vast percentage are native born Americans who have lived their entire lives in San Francisco and have come to the school system speaking no English. Q You say a vast, majority now, these 1,800, are native born? MR. STEINMAN: Wall, again, I cannot address that be cause it is not in the record. All I can rely on the fact is that in 1967, the school system admitted, even before the im migration laws were changed, that there were 2,000 students in the school system right then who were Chinese speaking who do not speak English. And this was before the immigration laws were even changed. So that is all I can surmise from the record, Your Honor. Q What is your ultimate complaint, that English should be taught in these schools? MR. STEINMAN: Well, what we would — 3 Q Or that the instruction should be in Chinese? MR. STEINMAN: oh, no. Our goal is the same announced goal that the school system in the State of California has made. Our goal is that we want the.se students to be taught English and to understand English sc they can have the type of mastery of English which our society requires. The problem now is that they are being taught in a language they do not understand, and we would like the school system to take whatever steps that are reasonable, and this of course is within their province, since they are the experts in this area, to take whatever steps that are reasonable to guarantee that these students are able to benefit from the instruction that they are given. Q So you would have the same objections if they taught them in Chinese? MR. STEINMAN: If the school system decided that teach ing them in Chinese was the most effective method, that would be a bilingual method, Your Honor.