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Council of Economic Advisers Oral History Interview –JFK#1, 08/1/1964 Administrative Information

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Council of Economic Advisers Oral History Interview –JFK#1, 08/1/1964 Administrative Information Council of Economic Advisers Oral History Interview –JFK#1, 08/1/1964 Administrative Information Creator: Walter Heller, Kermit Gordon, James Tobin, Gardner Ackley, Paul Samuelson Interviewer: Joseph Pechman Date of Interview: August 1, 1964 Place of Interview: Fort Ritchie, Maryland Length: 452 pages, one addendum* *Please note: There is no page 83, 84, or 210. Mr. Tobin revised the original transcript before it was proofread by the Kennedy Library staff. He elaborated on specific entries in the transcript. His additions have been included in the transcript where appropriate; his other notes appear in Appendix A and are footnoted in the text. Biographical Note Heller, Economist, Chairman, Council of Economic Advisers (1961 - 1964); Gordon, Economist, Member, Council of Economic Advisers (1961-1962); Tobin, Economist, Adviser, Presidential campaign of John F. Kennedy (1960), Member, Council of Economic Advisers (1961-1962), Adviser, Presidential campaign of Robert F. Kennedy (1967); Ackley, Economist, President's Council of Economic Advisers, member, 1962- 68, chair, 1964-68, U.S. Ambassador to Italy, 1968-69; Samuelson, Nobel Prize–winning economist, Newsweek columnist, author, economics professor, and adviser to presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson, discuss the Council of Economic Advisers under Kennedy, the recession issue, the budget, and the relationship between the Treasury and Federal Reserve, among other issues. Access Open. Usage Restrictions Copyright of these materials have passed to United States Government upon the death of the interviewee. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. Copyright The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Under certain conditions specified in the law, libraries and archives are authorized to furnish a photocopy or other reproduction. One of these specified conditions is that the photocopy or reproduction is not to be “used for any purpose other than private study, scholarship, or research.” If a user makes a request for, or later uses, a photocopy or reproduction for purposes in excesses of “fair use,” that user may be liable for copyright infringement. This institution reserves the right to refuse to accept a copying order if, in its judgment, fulfillment of the order would involve violation of copyright law. The copyright law extends its protection to unpublished works from the moment of creation in a tangible form. Direct your questions concerning copyright to the reference staff. Transcript of Oral History Interview These electronic documents were created from transcripts available in the research room of the John F. Kennedy Library. The transcripts were scanned using optical character recognition and the resulting text files were proofread against the original transcripts. Some formatting changes were made. Page numbers are noted where they would have occurred at the bottoms of the pages of the original transcripts. If researchers have any concerns about accuracy, they are encouraged to visit the Library and consult the transcripts and the interview recordings. Suggested Citation Council of Economic Advisers: Walter Heller, Kermit Gordon, James Tobin, Gardner Ackley, Paul Samuelson, recorded interview by Joseph Pechman, August 1, 1964, (page number), John F. Kennedy Library Oral History Program. Oral History Interview Of The Council of Economic Advisers: Walter Heller, Kermit Gordon, James Tobin, Gardner Ackley, Paul Samuelson Although a legal agreement was not signed during the lifetimes of Walter Heller, Kermit Gordon, James Tobin, Gardner Ackley, and Paul Samuelson, upon their deaths ownership of the recording and transcript of their interview for the Oral History Program passed to the John Fitzgerald Kennedy Library. The following terms and conditions apply: 1. The transcript is available for use by researchers. 2. The tape recording shall be made available to those researchers who have access to the transcript. 3; Copyright to the interview transcript and tape is assigned to the United States Government. 4. Copies of the transcript and the tape recording may be provided by the Library to researchers upon request for a fee. 5. Copies of the transcript and tape recording may be deposited in or loaned to institutions other than the John F. Kennedy Library. Council of Economic Advisers—JFK #1 Table of Contents Page Topic 2 John F. Kennedy’s [JFK] senate campaigns and the Finletter group 10 JFK’s participation in the Joint Economic Committee 13,28 Support for JFK during the 1960 presidential campaign 18 Kermit Gordon’s involvement in the 1958 senate race 29,77 JFK’s early interest in economic issues 47 Influences on JFK’s economic policies 53,132,217 Recession and unemployment 59,94,207 Balance of payments and debt problem 61 Economic issues in the presidential campaign speeches 71 Support for JFK versus Adlai Stevenson 77 Recollections of JFK on the campaign trail 92 The Catholic issue 94 The state of the economy at the time of election 99 International economic relations 103,178 Samuelson task force 106,129,146,148 Appointments to the Council of Economic Advisers 127 Budget Bureau appointments 143 Orville Freeman’s campaign 147,172,247 Tax cuts 155,166 Treasury appointments 162 Roosa’s background 178 JFK and task forces 184 Martin and the Federal Reserve 196,221,231,239 Anti-recession program 204 Arthur Goldberg’s role in labor issues 208 Operation Twist 213,223 Early talks with JFK regarding the budget 224 First cabinet meetings 227 State of the union message addressing economic issues 234 Budget expenditures 242 Recovery through expenditure policy 250 Memos regarding the federal budget 252 Blue ribbon committees 258 History of the Council and its relationship with the Joint Economic Committee 278 Unemployment rates and projections in early 1961 293,338 The Council’s statement before the Joint Economic Committee 306 JFK’s attention to detail and work habits 316 Structural unemployment and the relationship with the Federal Reserve 325 Troika and Quadriad in the Kennedy administration 342 Appointment of key economic posts 367 The second stage program 378 The Berlin tax crisis 407 The balanced budget commitment 412 Economic forecast for 1962 425 The 1962 tax cut promise Oral History Interview with Walter Heller Kermit Gordon James Tobin Gardner Ackley Paul Samuelson August 1, 1964 Fort Ritchie, Maryland By Joseph Pechman For the John F. Kennedy Library PECHMAN: The participants in this conversation are: Walter Heller, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers since January 1961; Kermit Gordon, director of the Budget [Bureau of the Budget], who was a member of the Council of Economic Advisers from January 1961 up to December 1962; James Tobin, professor of economics at Yale University, who was a member of the Council of Economic Advisers between January 1961 and August 1962; Gardner Ackley, who is now a member of the Council of Economic Advisers and who joined the Council in September 1962; and Paul Samuelson, professor of economics [-1-] at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. I am Joseph Pechman, director of economic studies at the Brookings Institution. Paul Samuelson and I have acted from time to time as consultants to the Council of Economic Advisers. Paul Samuelson, would you tell us when you first met John F. Kennedy and under what circumstances? SAMUELSON: John F. Kennedy became my congressman in Cambridge in 1946, after he returned from war service as a naval officer. I believe that his connections with the academic community were very sparse at that time. I know that I was hardly aware of him as a congressman. That district had had Tom Eliot [Thomas Hopkinson Eliot], a Boston Brahmin, for a two-year term. Then Michael Curley [James Michael Curley] decided he wanted it and it was amazing how easily he was able to get it. I can‟t remember whether he was in prison at the time or not. There was also a little gerrymandering. But then Kennedy came in, but he definitely was not part of the Harvard Yard group at that time. I think that Jim Burns‟s [James McGregor Burns] biography of Kennedy will bear that out. In 1952, Kennedy defeated Henry Cabot Lodge. [-2-] PECHMAN: Paul, let me interrupt you. You did not meet Kennedy during the period he was a congressman? SAMUELSON: No. In 1952 Kennedy ran for the Senate and defeated Henry Cabot Lodge. I recall this because quite a number of academic people, it‟s my impression, voted for Lodge and not for Kennedy because of Joseph Kennedy [Joseph P. Kennedy, Sr.] and their attitudes towards the father of John F. Kennedy. Then in 1958, when Kennedy ran for the Senate, he began to have connections with the academic community. I think I met him first during that campaign. He spoke before the MIT faculty club and very successfully. It was a well-received speech. Earlier I had had some peripheral connection with the Finletter [Thomas K. Finletter] group. Tom Finletter had organized a brain trust for Adlai Stevenson. I‟m sure that I was recruited to that group through Kenneth Galbraith and Arthur Schlesinger Jr. and Seymour Harris. Alvin Hansen had some connections. I can recall Leon Keyserling was sometimes there and already the fur was flying somewhat between Leon Keyserling and people like [-3-] Alvin Hansen. HELLER: Now, was this the Democratic Advisory Committee? SAMUELSON: No. HELLER: This was a separate Stevenson group? SAMUELSON: This was a private group. I always had the impression that the minimal expenses of travel and so forth were actually probably paid for by Bill Benton [William B. Benton], but I never knew. Finletter was the one who ran it. We‟d meet in Finletter‟s apartment in New York, yes. PECHMAN: Paul, since you‟ve mentioned the Finletter group, we might just as well identify it.
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