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Wild Animals in Circuses (No PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Public Bill Committee WILD ANIMALS IN CIRCUSES (NO. 2) BILL First Sitting Tuesday 21 May 2019 (Morning) CONTENTS Programme motion agreed to. Written evidence (Reporting to the House) motion agreed to. Motion to sit in private agreed to. Examination of witnesses. Adjourned till this day at Two o’clock. PBC (Bill 385) 2017 - 2019 No proofs can be supplied. Corrections that Members suggest for the final version of the report should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Saturday 25 May 2019 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2019 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 1 Public Bill Committee21 MAY 2019 Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill 2 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chairs: SIR DAVID AMESS,†MRS MADELEINE MOON † Carmichael, Mr Alistair (Orkney and Shetland) † Pollard, Luke (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (LD) (Lab/Co-op) † Chalk, Alex (Cheltenham) (Con) † Reeves, Ellie (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab) † Debbonaire, Thangam (Bristol West) (Lab) † Rutley, David (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of † Duffield, Rosie (Canterbury) (Lab) State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs) † Harrison, Trudy (Copeland) (Con) † Seely, Mr Bob (Isle of Wight) (Con) † Heald, Sir Oliver (North East Hertfordshire) (Con) † Stewart, Iain (Milton Keynes South) (Con) † Hoare, Simon (North Dorset) (Con) † Turley, Anna (Redcar) (Lab/Co-op) † Latham, Mrs Pauline (Mid Derbyshire) (Con) † McCarthy, Kerry (Bristol East) (Lab) Anwen Rees, Kenneth Fox, Committee Clerks † Martin, Sandy (Ipswich) (Lab) † Newton, Sarah (Truro and Falmouth) (Con) † attended the Committee Witnesses Dr Ros Clubb, Senior Scientific Manager, Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Daniella Dos Santos, Junior Vice President, British Veterinary Association Nicola O’Brien, Campaigns Director, Freedom for Animals Angie Greenaway, Executive Director, Animal Defenders International Dr Chris Draper, Head of Animal Welfare in Captivity, Born Free Foundation Jordi Casamitjana, Senior Campaign Manager, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals UK 3 Public Bill CommitteeHOUSE OF COMMONS Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill 4 Public Bill Committee Resolved, That, subject to the discretion of the Chair, any written evidence received by the Committee shall be reported to the House for publication.—(David Rutley.) Tuesday 21 May 2019 The Chair: Copies of written evidence the Committee (Morning) receives will be made available in the Committee Room. We may now discuss our lines of questioning. If there are no requests, we will move on to hear oral evidence. [MRS MADELEINE MOON in the Chair] Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill Examination of Witnesses Dr Ros Clubb, Daniella Dos Santos and Nicola O’Brien 9.25 am gave evidence. The Chair: Before we begin, I have a few preliminary points. Please switch electronic devices to silent. Tea 9.28 am and coffee are not allowed during sittings. The Chair: Good morning, everyone. We will now We will first consider the programme motion on the hear oral evidence from the Royal Society for the Prevention amendment paper. We will then consider a motion to of Cruelty to Animals, the British Veterinary Association, enable the reporting of written evidence for publication and Freedom for Animals. I remind all Members that and a motion to allow us to deliberate in private about questions should be limited to matters within the scope our questions before the oral evidence session. In view of the Bill, and that we must stick to the timings in the of the limited time available, I hope we can agree those programme order the Committee has agreed. We have matters without too much debate. I call the Minister to until 10.30 am for this session. Will the witnesses please move the programme motion, which was agreed by the introduce themselves for the record? Programming Sub-Committee yesterday. Nicola O’Brien: My name is Nicola O’Brien. I am Ordered, campaigns director at Freedom for Animals. That— Dr Ros Clubb: I am Ros Clubb. I am senior scientific (1) the Committee shall (in addition to its first meeting at manager in the wildlife department of the RSPCA. 9.25 am on Tuesday 21 May) meet— Daniella Dos Santos: I am Daniella Dos Santos. I am (a) at 2.00 pm on Tuesday 21 May; the junior vice-president of the British Veterinary (b) at 9.25 am and 2.00 pm on Wednesday 22 May; Association. (2) the Committee shall hear oral evidence in accordance with the following Table: The Chair: Thank you. I am happy to take questions. TABLE Q1 Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) Date Time Witness (Lab/Co-op): Thank you for coming. There seems to be lots of cross-party agreement on the principle behind Tuesday 21 May Until no later than RSPCA; British 10.30 am Veterinary the Bill—that wild animals should not be in circuses for Association; our entertainment—but we have some questions about Freedom for the detail of the Bill, and in particular the definition of Animals a travelling circus. They stem from the desire to make Tuesday 21 May Until no later than Born Free; Animal sure the Bill is as comprehensive as possible, to ensure 11.25 am Defenders that in the future there will be no wiggle room or International; loopholes. What is your view of the current definition in PETA the Bill? Is it sufficient, or could it be tightened up? Tuesday 21 May Until no later than Peter Jolly’s Dr Ros Clubb: From the RSPCA’s perspective we are 2.45 pm Circus; Circus on the same line of thinking. We think it should be Mondao comprehensive, to capture the activities that are of Tuesday 21 May Until no later than Circus Guild of concern, and that the public want ended—and that the 3.30 pm Great Britain; European Circus RSPCA wants ended, as well. We favour a definition of Association a travelling circus very much in line with what is currently Tuesday 21 May Until no later than Mike Radford in the circus regulations that currently license wild 4.00 pm OBE, Reader at animals in circuses. We favour a meaning of “travelling the University of circus” as any company, group or institution that travels Aberdeen and from place to place for the purpose of giving performances, Chairman of the displays or exhibitions, and as part of which wild animals Circus Working are kept or introduced, whether for the purpose of Group performance, display or otherwise. Our main thinking (3) the proceedings shall (so far as not previously is that we want the less formal display or exhibition of concluded) be brought to a conclusion at 5.00 pm on wild animals to be captured, meaning association with Wednesday 22 May.—(David Rutley.) the circus and not necessarily just animals performing Resolved, in the ring. That, at this and any subsequent meeting at which oral evidence Nicola O’Brien: We feel similar on that. Also, we feel is to be heard, the Committee shall sit in private until the that it has been working, obviously, with those businesses witnesses are admitted.—(David Rutley.) that have registered under the travelling circus regulations. 5 Public Bill Committee21 MAY 2019 Wild Animals in Circuses (No. 2) Bill 6 It has been effective. It has not accidentally caught any travelling circus. We were not in favour of that, and we other businesses that travel with animals for other purposes. do not think that deals with the situation at hand. The We feel that that is a robust definition. constant travelling, the temporary enclosures and the Daniella Dos Santos: From the BVA’s perspective, restrictions they place on the environment and husbandry while we are broadly in line, we have a slightly different you can provide for those wild animals are not suitable. take. We would support including the definition of a When you look at the standards in the circus regulations, travelling circus in the Bill itself, but we would support a you see that they are very different from, for example, definition in line with that in the Wild Animals in those for licensed zoos. An animal in a circus is treated Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Act 2018, so that there very differently from the same animal in a zoo, and we would be a cohesive understanding between them, and do not think that is good enough. so that when it comes to implementation and enforcement Daniella Dos Santos: I would second that. I do not there is no confusion about cross-border issues. We think there is any way we can meet the welfare needs of would favour a definition in line with the Scottish Act. wild animals in a travelling circus situation. They have Also, we feel that that would avoid unintended consequences very particular welfare needs and, by the nature of a for other types of animal displays that might move to circus, where they are constantly moving, the spaces temporary locations—for example, for educational they are provided with have to be smaller and more purposes. portable. Therefore, you are not going to meet their needs. Because of the requirements of performing and Q2 Trudy Harrison (Copeland) (Con): The RSPCA so on, their day-to-day routines are not going to be referred to the requirement for police constables to adhered to. Therefore, that may impact on their diet carry out checks and enforcement, as well as inspectors. and so on. We would say their needs cannot be met Can you talk us through that? under any circumstances.
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