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UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT of ORAL EVIDENCE to Be Published As HC 730 UNCORRECTED TRANSCRIPT OF ORAL EVIDENCE To be published as HC 730 HOUSE OF COMMONS ORAL EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT COMMITTEE BBC ANNUAL REPORT TUESDAY 22 OCTOBER 2013 RT HON LORD PATTEN OF BARNES, LORD HALL OF BIRKENHEAD and ANNE BULFORD Evidence heard in Public Questions 1 - 141 USE OF THE TRANSCRIPT 1. This is an uncorrected transcript of evidence taken in public and reported to the House. The transcript has been placed on the internet on the authority of the Committee, and copies have been made available by the Vote Office for the use of Members and others. 2. Any public use of, or reference to, the contents should make clear that neither witnesses nor Members have had the opportunity to correct the record. The transcript is not yet an approved formal record of these proceedings. 3. Members who receive this for the purpose of correcting questions addressed by them to witnesses are asked to send corrections to the Committee Assistant. 4. Prospective witnesses may receive this in preparation for any written or oral evidence they may in due course give to the Committee. 1 Oral Evidence Taken before the Culture, Media and Sport Committee on Tuesday 22 October 2013 Members present: Mr John Whittingdale (Chair) Mr Ben Bradshaw Conor Burns Tracey Crouch Philip Davies Paul Farrelly Mr John Leech Steve Rotheram Jim Sheridan Mr Gerry Sutcliffe ________________ Examination of Witnesses Witnesses: Rt Hon Lord Patten of Barnes, Chairman of the BBC Trust, Lord Hall of Birkenhead, Director-General, BBC, and Anne Bulford, Managing Director, Operations and Finance, BBC, gave evidence. Q1 Chair: Good morning everyone and welcome to the annual session of the Select Committee at which we examine the BBC’s annual report and accounts. I would like to welcome the Chairman of the BBC Trust, Lord Patten, and the Director-General, Lord Hall, as well as the Managing Director for Operations and Finance, Anne Bulford. Lord Patten, since we had our last session on the annual report and accounts, it is fair to say that the BBC has not had a good year. You, yourself, have said in the annual report that the BBC has seriously let down itself and the licence fee payers. That has led to some questions about the way in which the BBC is governed, but yesterday, as you may have seen, we had a debate in Parliament on the BBC and Tessa Jowell said, “It is not the present model of governance that is flawed but the failure of individuals within that to make the right decisions and to intervene sufficiently early.” Do you think she is right? Lord Patten of Barnes: Yes. I think it is a bit of a snare and a delusion that is part of the BBC DNA, to say whenever anything goes wrong that it is the governance that has gone wrong. The governance is debated and reorganised with some regularity. I think four issues have really concerned us over the last year; I think tomorrow is the anniversary of George Entwistle’s appearance in front of this Select Committee, which had consequences. First of all, there have been the difficulties over Savile and the report by Nick Pollard, which, while demonstrating that the main charge made against the BBC was not correct, did point to some pretty shambolic handling of the whole imbroglio. Nobody in their right mind could regard Nick Pollard’s report as a whitewash. Secondly, there was the very bad—related to that—editorial judgment on Newsnight about Lord McAlpine. Thirdly, there has been the uncovering of the way in which severance 2 payments were managed going way back to the time when there was a Board of Governors. I am very pleased that the Director-General has acted on that so quickly. Finally, there has been—which is still to be examined with a report by PwC coming out shortly—the pulling of the DMI initiative, which I hope we can come to later, at considerable cost to the licence fee payers in the BBC. I hope—you would expect me to say this—that we can spend the next year focusing on the quality of what the BBC produces in terms of television programmes and radio programmes and online services, and that we can ensure that the trust in the BBC, which still exists in pretty substantial quantities, continues to be rebuilt and that the BBC, as an institution, enjoys the trust of people around the country. If that happens I suspect that arguments about governance will seem less important over the next year or two, or that is my hope. It has been a bad year but, at the same time, some good things have happened, in terms of programming—the Olympics just over a year ago, being the most notable of those. Speaking for myself and for my colleagues in the Trust—you will not get always the sort of mutual admiration stuff from me—I think we are very pleased that we have in Tony Hall an outstanding Director-General and that he has been appointing some very good members of a team in which we have considerable confidence. We are aware of how much is expected of the BBC and we have to deliver. Q2 Chair: I think Tessa Jowell yesterday, who did create the Trust model of governance, was defending the model by saying that it was individuals within the Trust who had failed. You, as Chairman of the Trust, are ultimately responsible. Do you accept that criticism? Lord Patten of Barnes: I have been criticised quite a bit for things that happened before I became Chairman of the Trust. I found myself in the PAC in a long discussion about the payoff that Mark Byford received when he left the BBC, which was before my time. I have not— Chair: But you have been Chairman of the Trust this last year. Lord Patten of Barnes: Sorry, yes, I would defend the record over the last year. I do think that people would say that we made the wrong choice of Director-General, but I have to say it was unanimous when we made it. I don’t seem to recall anybody saying we had made the wrong choice. Unfortunately, George was overwhelmed by events but he was a very decent broadcaster and programme maker. Can I just add one point? When I became Chairman of the Trust, having read the Charter and looked at the role of the Trust, I certainly didn’t expect that people would think I was running the personnel department in the BBC. The description of the Trust in the Charter couldn’t be clearer. One of the things that the Director-General and I want to do—and I hope we will have put in place before Christmas—is an even clearer set of distinctions between the role of the Trust and what the executive does. But it has never been the job of the Trust to run the BBC. It is an old issue in political science; we tend to get blamed for everything that has gone wrong, whether or not we are responsible for it, but that is life and at 69 I am beyond all human ambition. Q3 Jim Sheridan: Lord Patten, when I first came on to this Committee some years ago at these sessions we talked mainly about the product. Nowadays we don’t talk about the product. In the last year or so we have been talking mainly about the Trust and, indeed, the senior management. I do believe that the general public still believes in the BBC, but it is running very, very close to the wire. When do you think we can go back to talking about the actual product and not about the problems surrounding the management of the BBC? Lord Patten of Barnes: I hope that we will start doing that from pretty well now on, but we still have to cope with the consequences of things that went wrong in the past. We are 3 dealing and we will go on dealing with severance pay because there is still a PAC report to come out on that, which will point out quite properly what went wrong from 2006 onwards and even before 2006. We have the PwC report on DMI. There will be the report by a distinguished former judge on the BBC’s behaviour in the light entertainment field during the 1960s and 1970s. Each time that sort of thing comes out, people will be talking about that rather than how much they enjoyed Strictly Come Dancing and I think that is unfortunate but that is life. Two things have really surprised me in this job. The first is how little political pressure the BBC is under, to be candid, though I do note in passing that this is the 16th time in a year that the BBC has appeared in front of a Select Committee and Lord Reith would be spinning in his grave. Secondly, I— Chair: I think that Lord Reith would be spinning about what has been going on in the BBC rather than the number of Select Committee appearances. Lord Patten of Barnes: He might be spinning about Strictly Come Dancing as well perhaps, particularly at those who are not wearing dinner jackets. Secondly, I have, on the other hand, been very surprised by the astonishing amount of attention that the affairs of the BBC get in the rest of the media, sometimes for reasons that we can all understand, but when I look at the press cuttings in the morning I am amazed at how much the BBC features and I wish Syria featured rather more.
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