First Session, 42nd Parliament

OFFICIAL REPORT OF DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday, December 15, 2020 Afernoon Sitting Issue No. 11

THE HONOURABLE , SPEAKER

ISSN 1499-2175 PROVINCE OF (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)

LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR Her Honour the Honourable Janet Austin, OBC

First Session, 42nd Parliament

SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Raj Chouhan

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL Premier and President of the Executive Council ...... Hon. Minister of Advanced Education and Skills Training...... Hon. Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries...... Hon. Attorney General and Minister Responsible for Housing ...... Hon. , QC Minister of Children and Family Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Child Care...... Hon. Minister of Citizens’ Services...... Hon. Minister of Education ...... Hon. Minister of Energy, Mines and Low Carbon Innovation ...... Hon. Minister of Environment and Climate Change Strategy...... Hon. Minister of Finance ...... Hon. Minister of Forests, Lands, Natural Resource Operations and Rural Development ...... Hon. Minister of State for Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Minister of Health and Minister Responsible for Francophone Afairs...... Hon. Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation ...... Hon. , QC Minister of Jobs, Economic Recovery and Innovation...... Hon. Minister of State for Trade...... Hon. Minister of Labour ...... Hon. Minister of Mental Health and Addictions...... Hon. Minister of Municipal Afairs ...... Hon. Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General ...... Hon. Minister of Social Development and Poverty Reduction...... Hon. Minister of Tourism, Arts, Culture and Sport ...... Hon. Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Minister of State for Infrastructure ...... Hon.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Leader of the Ofcial Opposition...... Leader of the Tird Party ...... Deputy Speaker...... Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole ...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Clerk of the Legislative Assembly ...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel...... Seunghee Suzie Seo Clerk Assistant, Parliamentary Services...... Artour Sogomonian Clerk of Committees...... Jennifer Arril Clerk Assistant, Committees and Interparliamentary Relations ...... Susan Sourial Senior Research Analyst...... Karan Riarh Acting Sergeant-at-Arms...... Greg Nelson ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING Alexis, Pam (BC NDP) ...... Abbotsford-Mission Abbotsford-Mission...... Anderson, Brittny (BC NDP) ...... Nelson-Creston ...... Ashton, Dan (BC Liberal Party)...... Penticton Abbotsford West...... Michael de Jong, QC Babchuk, Michele (BC NDP)...... North Island Boundary-Similkameen...... Bailey, Brenda (BC NDP)...... –False Creek Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Hon. Anne Kang Bains, Hon. Harry (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Burnaby-Edmonds...... Hon. Raj Chouhan Banman, Bruce (BC Liberal Party) ...... Abbotsford South Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Katrina Chen Beare, Hon. Lisa (BC NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Burnaby North ...... Begg, Garry (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Guildford Cariboo-Chilcotin ...... Bernier, Mike (BC Liberal Party) ...... Peace River South Cariboo North...... Bond, Shirley (BC Liberal Party)...... Prince George–Valemount Chilliwack ...... Brar, Jagrup (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack-Kent ...... Cadieux, Stephanie (BC Liberal Party) ...... Surrey South Columbia River–Revelstoke ...... Chandra Herbert, Spencer (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Chant, Susie (BC NDP) ...... North Vancouver–Seymour Coquitlam-Maillardville ...... Hon. Selina Robinson Chen, Hon. Katrina (BC NDP) ...... Burnaby-Lougheed Courtenay-Comox...... Ronna-Rae Leonard Chouhan, Hon. Raj (BC NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Cowichan Valley ...... Sonia Furstenau Chow, Hon. George (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fraserview Delta North...... Hon. Ravi Kahlon Clovechok, Doug (BC Liberal Party)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Delta South ...... Conroy, Hon. Katrine (BC NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt-Metchosin ...... Hon. Mitzi Dean Coulter, Dan (BC NDP) ...... Chilliwack Fraser-Nicola ...... Cullen, Hon. Nathan (BC NDP) ...... Stikine Kamloops–North Tompson ...... Davies, Dan (BC Liberal Party)...... Peace River North Kamloops–South Tompson...... de Jong, Michael, QC (BC Liberal Party)...... Abbotsford West Kelowna–Lake Country ...... Norm Letnick Dean, Hon. Mitzi (BC NDP) ...... Esquimalt-Metchosin Kelowna-Mission ...... Renee Merrifeld D’Eith, Bob (BC NDP) ...... Maple Ridge–Mission Kelowna West ...... Dix, Hon. Adrian (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kootenay East...... Doerkson, Lorne (BC Liberal Party) ...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Kootenay West...... Hon. Katrine Conroy Donnelly, Fin (BC NDP) ...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain Langford–Juan de Fuca ...... Hon. John Horgan Dykeman, Megan (BC NDP)...... Langley East Langley ...... Eby, Hon. David, QC (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Langley East...... Elmore, Mable (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Kensington Maple Ridge–Mission...... Bob D’Eith Farnworth, Hon. Mike (BC NDP) ...... Port Coquitlam Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Hon. Lisa Beare Fleming, Hon. Rob (BC NDP) ...... Victoria–Swan Lake Mid Island–Pacifc Rim...... Hon. Josie Osborne Furstenau, Sonia (BC Green Party) ...... Cowichan Valley Nanaimo...... Hon. Sheila Malcolmson Glumac, Rick (BC NDP) ...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Greene, Kelly (BC NDP) ...... Richmond-Steveston Nechako Lakes...... Halford, Trevor (BC Liberal Party)...... Surrey–White Rock Nelson-Creston ...... Heyman, Hon. George (BC NDP) ...... Vancouver-Fairview New Westminster...... Hon. Jennifer Whiteside Horgan, Hon. John (BC NDP) ...... Langford–Juan de Fuca North Coast ...... Kahlon, Hon. Ravi (BC NDP) ...... Delta North North Island...... Kang, Hon. Anne (BC NDP) ...... Burnaby–Deer Lake North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Bowinn Ma Kirkpatrick, Karin (BC Liberal Party)...... West Vancouver–Capilano North Vancouver–Seymour...... Kyllo, Greg (BC Liberal Party)...... Shuswap Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Murray Rankin, QC Lee, Michael (BC Liberal Party)...... Vancouver-Langara Parksville-Qualicum...... Adam Walker Leonard, Ronna-Rae (BC NDP)...... Courtenay-Comox Peace River North ...... Letnick, Norm (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kelowna–Lake Country Peace River South ...... Lore, Grace (BC NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Penticton ...... Ma, Hon. Bowinn (BC NDP)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale Port Coquitlam...... Hon. Mike Farnworth Malcolmson, Hon. Sheila (BC NDP)...... Nanaimo Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Mark, Hon. Melanie (BC NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Hon. Nicholas Simons Mercier, Andrew (BC NDP) ...... Langley Prince George–Mackenzie...... Merrifeld, Renee (BC Liberal Party)...... Kelowna-Mission Prince George–Valemount ...... Shirley Bond Milobar, Peter (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kamloops–North Tompson Richmond North Centre...... Morris, Mike (BC Liberal Party) ...... Prince George–Mackenzie Richmond-Queensborough...... Oakes, Coralee (BC Liberal Party)...... Cariboo North Richmond South Centre ...... Olsen, Adam (BC Green Party)...... Saanich North and the Islands Richmond-Steveston ...... Osborne, Hon. Josie (BC NDP)...... Mid Island–Pacifc Rim Saanich North and the Islands ...... Paddon, Kelli (BC NDP) ...... Chilliwack-Kent Saanich South ...... Hon. Lana Popham Paton, Ian (BC Liberal Party) ...... Delta South Shuswap...... Popham, Hon. Lana (BC NDP)...... Saanich South Skeena...... Ralston, Hon. Bruce (BC NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Stikine...... Hon. Nathan Cullen Rankin, Hon. Murray, QC (BC NDP) ...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Surrey-Cloverdale ...... Rice, Jennifer (BC NDP) ...... North Coast Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Robinson, Hon. Selina (BC NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Surrey–Green Timbers...... Ross, Ellis (BC Liberal Party)...... Skeena Surrey-Guildford...... Routledge, Janet (BC NDP) ...... Burnaby North Surrey-Newton...... Hon. Harry Bains Routley, Doug (BC NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Surrey-Panorama ...... Russell, Roly (BC NDP)...... Boundary-Similkameen Surrey South ...... Rustad, John (BC Liberal Party)...... Nechako Lakes Surrey-Whalley ...... Hon. Bruce Ralston Sandhu, Harwinder (BC NDP) ...... Vernon-Monashee Surrey–White Rock ...... Sharma, Niki (BC NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Fairview...... Hon. George Heyman Shypitka, Tom (BC Liberal Party)...... Kootenay East Vancouver–False Creek...... Simons, Hon. Nicholas (BC NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Fraserview...... Hon. George Chow Sims, Jinny (BC NDP) ...... Surrey-Panorama Vancouver-Hastings ...... Singh, Aman (BC NDP) ...... Richmond-Queensborough Vancouver-Kensington...... Singh, Rachna (BC NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Vancouver-Kingsway...... Hon. Adrian Dix Starchuk, Mike (BC NDP) ...... Surrey-Cloverdale Vancouver-Langara...... Michael Lee Stewart, Ben (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kelowna West Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Hon. Melanie Mark Stone, Todd (BC Liberal Party) ...... Kamloops–South Tompson Vancouver–Point Grey ...... Hon. David Eby, QC Sturdy, Jordan (BC Liberal Party) ...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Vancouver-Quilchena...... , QC Tegart, Jackie (BC Liberal Party)...... Fraser-Nicola Vancouver–West End ...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Walker, Adam (BC NDP)...... Parksville-Qualicum Vernon-Monashee ...... Wat, Teresa (BC Liberal Party) ...... Richmond North Centre Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Whiteside, Hon. Jennifer (BC NDP) ...... New Westminster Victoria–Swan Lake...... Hon. Rob Fleming Wilkinson, Andrew, QC (BC Liberal Party)...... Vancouver-Quilchena West Vancouver–Capilano...... Yao, Henry (BC NDP) ...... Richmond South Centre West Vancouver–Sea to Sky......

Party Standings: BC NDP 57; BC Liberal Party 28; BC Green Party 2

CONTENTS

Tuesday, December 15, 2020 Afernoon Sitting Page

Routine Business

Tributes ...... 239 Gary Steeves Hon. B. Ralston

Orders of the Day

Committee of the Whole House...... 239 Bill 3 — Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2020 (continued) M. Bernier Hon. S. Robinson M. de Jong S. Furstenau

239

TUESDAY, DECEMBER 15, 2020 Committee of the Whole House

Te House met at 1:31 p.m. BILL 3 — FINANCE STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT, 2020 [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] (continued)

Routine Business Te House in Committee of the Whole on Bill 3; S. Chandra Herbert in the chair. Tributes Te committee met at 1:35 p.m. GARY STEEVES Te Chair: Recognizing the member for Peace River Hon. B. Ralston: I wanted to say a few words of tribute South. to Gary Steeves, who passed away last week. Born and educated in Moncton, New Brunswick, he On clause 1 (continued). attended Mount Allison University. His commitment to the labour movement started early. He was a shop steward M. Bernier: Tank you, Chair. Welcome to the chair for for Local 168 of the Tunnel and Rock Workers in Stewart, this afernoon, for your part and time in here, anyway. B.C. in 1973 and 1974. In the ’70s, he went on to work I want to quickly go back to where we were just before in the research departments of the Canadian Labour Con- the lunch break, before I turn it over to a colleague of mine gress and the Canadian Union of Public Employees. Ten — just to fnish my train of thought here. Te minister was he worked for six years in the House of Commons as an acknowledging, rightfully so, her staf and the hard work executive assistant to Cyril Symes, an NDP Member of that the staf do in preparing budgets and the work they do Parliament. leading up to every budget cycle, in fact. He met Marina in 1978, and they married in October One of the questions, I guess, I want to fnd out from 1979. In the same year, he joined the BCGEU, and he the minister…. She’s sitting there. She has been saying that began a long career there. Te MLA for Vancouver-Fair- staf have been working diligently on putting the budget view spoke about his time there this morning. together, which I commend them for. Obviously, they do Upon retirement, he ran and was elected to the Islands that, and they do that throughout the year and every year, Trust, where he served for ten years, nine years as the vice- as they’re doing their planning. chair. Te MLA for Nanaimo spoke about that part of his Can the minister confrm for this House, then, who’s life on Tursday last. asking for this extension? Is it the minister and govern- Just this autumn he published a book entitled Tranquil- ment, or is it the ministry staf and public servants that are ity Lost. In 1983, BCGEU employees came together, ous- asking for extra time to put a budget together? ted management and ran the Tranquille School for people with developmental disabilities in Kamloops. Gary was Te Chair: Minister. deeply involved with the union members leading that occupation, and the book chronicles that time. Hon. S. Robinson: Tank you very much, Mr. Chair, Gary was always quick with an anecdote, which ofen and welcome to the chair. stretched into a longer story. His infectious laughter and Te member asked about the public service and their outgoing personality brightened many a meeting and so- role in building out a budget. I know that the member cial gathering. He was at his most eloquent when he acted knows that they have a very signifcant role in working as emcee for our friend PEI native Dave MacKinnon, at his with government to build out a budget. I just learned…. celebration of life in 2016, a memorable occasion. Te magical AirPods, the voices in my head, are telling me Gary was truly an engaged and engaging loyal friend of that, in fact, we’re one of the few governments that requires working people everywhere. He devoted his life to creating all components of a budget to be presented on budget day. a better world for everyone. [1:40 p.m.] We will miss you, Gary. Tat includes not just the budget and fscal plan but the estimates, the supplement to the estimates, the budget bill, Orders of the Day all the service plans — there’s the legislation with all the service plans, including the Crowns — and the strategic Hon. M. Farnworth: Continued committee stage de- plan for government. It’s a massive, massive undertaking bate, Bill 3. that is absolutely comprehensive. Of course, recognizing that with COVID, staf have been working fat out. I know that the member opposite knows that. Staf have absolutely been working fat out for 240 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 months and months and months to deliver for British Col- more succinct answer of what the challenges are putting a umbians. So yes, it would be helpful to our staf, the people budget together for this government. who are building these out, for them to have a few extra [1:45 p.m.] weeks so that they perhaps don’t have to work through weekends and late into the night. Hon. S. Robinson: Te folks at the other end of the Tis is about recognizing that the people that do the AirPods, who were in the briefng, were really clear that work on behalf of all of us are human beings and having in briefng discussions with members about the changes a few extra weeks to build out a responsible budget that that were made this summer, what they were solving for takes care of people, now and into the future, would be was for a typical election year with a fall election date. A most benefcial to the folks who do the work on behalf fall election was changed back in 2018. Making sure that of all of us. any government had the time that it needed to prepare a budget, with a fall framework, would have until, I believe, M. Bernier: Well, I don’t think there’s any argument the end of March to deliver a budget. Tat was adopted by from anybody, frst of all, that the staf are doing an amaz- the House. Tat was for a fall election framework. ing job in difcult times, and we commend them for that. Well, we also have, now, and we had it then too, but we Te minister didn’t answer my question, though. I’m weren’t anticipating that we would actually be in an elec- just curious, again. Of course, if we gave them more time, tion…. Here we are, a new government, and we have a I’m sure they’d be appreciative in this time. Has staf asked COVID situation that has really created some signifcant for the extra time, or is this government saying that they challenges. We have a staf that have been working non- need extra time in order to give information to staf? stop since the last budget was tabled in February because, recall, we went right from budget into a COVID challenge. Hon. S. Robinson: It is on their recommendation that Teir advice to us now is that we are obligated to table a it would be most helpful to them to do the work that we budget, absolutely. We’re obligated to do one that is well need them to do, if they had a few extra weeks to get that thought out, one that meets the needs of British Columbi- work done. ans now and into the future. If we’re going to be doing this and moving forward at M. Bernier: I appreciate that. Before lunch, the min- government’s direction and building out all those various ister acknowledged that there’s no other province or jur- components — the budget and fscal plan, the estimates, isdiction that has legislation that they’re putting forward the supplement to the estimates, the budget bill, the legis- to extend the timelines required for the transparency lative framework and all the service plans, including ser- act and the accountability that takes place when putting vice plans for the Crowns and a strategic plan for govern- together a budget. ment, all of that within the context of COVID — what I know the minister has her magic AirPods in, which we’re saying and what they are saying is that having a few will help in this one then. Tose same public servants that extra weeks to do it justice is what they need in order to we met with a few short months ago, just prior to the elec- demonstrate to British Columbians that we have a budget tion being called, confrmed with us that the fourth week that will work now and into the future. of March would be more than adequate for them to be able to put a budget together. At that time, that was when it was M. de Jong: I think, with the greatest respect, what the brought again to this House, just prior to that, that govern- minister is encountering is some skepticism on the part, ment was asking for a 30-day extension. Te same public at least, of the opposition around the rationale that she is servants said that that would be more than adequate to put providing insofar as it seems to rely almost exclusively on a budget together to show in front of this House by the end circumstances that were known the last time, just a few of March. short months ago. Tese questions were being pursued, Now we’re looking for yet another 30-day extension and and a legislative instrument was before the House. I expect change to the legislation requirements for this govern- that my colleague and the minister are going to pursue that ment. I’m just kind of curious what advice, I guess, staf matter further. is giving the minister — and the minister to clarify, again, I have a series of questions that relate to the bill and what really and truly has changed, then, other than we lost section 1 and the impact of section 1, its genesis, and the two months politically because of an election. Staf was impact it is going to have not so much on government, supposedly still working through that time. Tose same but some of the other agencies that government deals with. staf members told us just a few short months ago that they My colleague from Peace South, I think, is going to have a would be able to meet the timelines under legislation to conversation, discussion, with the minister about some of put a budget forward. those agencies, like school boards, like local government. Te minister has been unable to answer what’s really It’s sufcient for my purpose here simply to ask for con- changed, other than saying “COVID,” but we knew about frmation from the minister that she and the government that back then. I’m wondering if the minister can give a understand that by pushing the date for the tabling of the Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 241

provincial budget back…. She keeps saying “a few weeks.” do have the authority to produce a supply bill, should In the span of a few months, we are altering the tabling we not have a budget passed in sufcient time. Again, of the budget by some 2½ months, and the minister keeps we know it is important for these authorities to know saying “a few weeks.” that there is actually cash in the bank, that they have the [1:50 p.m.] resources they need to keep operations going. And we can It is sufcient for my purpose here simply to ask the certainly plan on doing that to make sure that business minister….I think she will acknowledge that that, at a proceeds as normal going forward. minimum, will have an efect or infuence or impact some of those other agencies — their timing around the fnaliz- M. de Jong: All right. Fair to say that those agencies will ing of their budgets. Does the minister agree with that? not know with certainty what the budgeted allocation is for the entire fscal year until such time as the full budget Hon. S. Robinson: First of all, I do want to remind is tabled? the member that this House did pass legislation for a fall [2:00 p.m.] election cycle and that there was another piece of legis- lation passed in March to, when there is a fall election, Hon. S. Robinson: What school districts and health move the tabling of the budget to the end of March. So authorities need to know is that they are going to be able to that was passed, and what we’re saying is just a few more continue delivering services. We will make sure that they weeks. We’re not saying 2½ months. I know that the mem- have the resources they need in order to do that, and they, ber prefers to go back, but that’s actually not the case — too, will see the full scope of the budget when it is tabled. what we’re asking for right here, right now. I just want to get that on the record. M. de Jong: Okay. Well, I think we’re getting somewhere In terms of the question, recognizing that there are oth- now. Te only point I was trying to make is…. er agencies and service delivery agencies that provide ser- When the minister stands up eventually to deliver her vices on behalf of government, part of this bill is to look frst budget, there will be budget day. Tere will be a at delivering either interim supply or special warrant that lockup, and there will be all of that anticipation and excite- will provide security to those agencies, knowing that they ment that is part and parcel of the budget day exercise. It’s will have the resources needed to carry on delivering ser- because people are interested. It does impact them, espe- vices for people, making sure that our school boards can cially agencies, not just governmental agencies but agen- remain whole. Tat would be based on the previous year’s cies that receive funding. estimates to carry us through until we can pass another Is that a fair statement? budget. Hon. S. Robinson: If I understood the member’s ques- M. de Jong: I fear the minister has misunderstood. tion, it was really around the excitement of the budget and: Maybe I phrased the question clumsily, and if I did, I apo- “Won’t that change it?” logize. She has spoke, looking back, and in so doing, has By my calculations, we’ll still be in some sort of a pan- acknowledged that there will now be a gap in terms of a demic phase. I think everything about this year has been budget, which will no longer be presented prior to the end particularly challenging. Everything. With British Colum- of a fscal year. It will be presented as much as a month, bians having to make signifcant changes to their lives and four weeks, into the next fscal year. Te nature of my their lifestyles, people losing their jobs, people not seeing question related to their ability to budget going forward loved ones. I expect that Budget ’21 will also look very and the ability to…. diferent as a result of COVID, including when we have [1:55 p.m.] budget day and, in all likelihood, what that looks like. Just as the minister has made the point that it is helpful I’m not expecting lockup to look like it has in the past. for her and the government to have a better idea about We’ll have to fgure out a diferent way of doing that in what the federal government is doing, presumably, the order to keep everyone safe. same argument holds true — with one exception. My col- league, I think, will pursue this in greater detail. M. de Jong: Well, you can call it lockdown, and people Te nature of my question is simply this. In terms of can bring their own food. budgeting going forward, those agencies, the ones I men- Look, I think the minister has made the point. tioned — school boards, health authorities — will not Whatever shape it takes, it’s because the budget matters. know by the end of the fscal year what their budgetary It is of interest to people. It speaks to government initiat- allocations, or even global budgetary allocations, are for ives. It speaks to funding that fows from government to the next fscal year — some weeks later, or up to four weeks other agencies. I don’t hear any disagreement with that later. Is that a fair statement on my part? proposition. I want to talk about one group in particular and ask Hon. S. Robinson: I know the member knows that we the minister some questions about one group in particular 242 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 who, following along the lines of that discussion, will be M. de Jong: Te message, I think, from the minister interested in any changes to the budgeting process and the is for those organizations, those First Nations, Aboriginal, impact it might have on their budgeting process. I’m talk- Indigenous organizations who heretofore would have been ing about Indigenous peoples and First Nations. in a position to know in March what certain budgetary I went to the budget documents for the fscal year we’re allocations were…. in, the budget tabled by the minister’s predecessor for the [2:10 p.m.] fscal year ending March 31, 2021. If this legislation passes, Tey’ll just wait. Tey’ll need to wait. In terms of setting there won’t be a new budget in place by the time this doc- their own budgets for fscal year ’21-22, they’ll just have ument expires. to wait the three or four weeks until the provincial budget One of the votes that comprises the budget is for the is set, but they shouldn’t worry about that three or four Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation. I weeks because the government will ensure that there is just wanted to very quickly read into the record a por- funding in place. tion of what Vote 32 involves. I’m quoting now from the Have I got that right? budget documents, the negotiations and regional opera- tions division. Hon. S. Robinson: Again, I want to reassure the [2:05 p.m.] member that funding will be in place for that 13th “Te subvote provides for the participation in the negotiation month for all organizations that rely on government of treaties, incremental treaty agreements, revenue-sharing agree- funds. What’s interesting, I just learned, through the ments, reconciliation agreements and other agreements with First magic AirPods, is that First Nations have varying year- Nations, Indigenous peoples and organizations. Tis subvote will support the negotiation of emerging policy directives and strive ends. It’s not even consistent, so they always have to to achieve rights, recognition and reconciliation outcomes…. Tis adapt, which I didn’t always know. I think the member subvote also provides for cross-government coordination and en- is making the assumption that everybody operates on a gagements with First Nations and Indigenous peoples….” similar year-end. Tat’s not the case. Ten secondly there is, under the strategic partnerships Te short answer to all of this is that funding will be and initiatives division, this descriptive: there. It’ll be there through to when we table the next “Tis subvote provides for the support and enhancement of the budget. We are talking about an additional few weeks to government’s approach to reconciliation with First Nations and In- make sure that the public service has the time that they digenous peoples through negotiations both inside and outside the need to put the entire package…. I know the member treaty process considered strategically important to furthering the sociocultural and socioeconomic priorities of government, includ- knows full well how signifcant the work is to put together ing revenue-sharing and shared decision-making, supporting Indi- the entire package for budget day. Tey have said that it genous self-government and by liaising with key Indigenous busi- would certainly be benefcial on their end to have the addi- ness groups and organizations.” tional time, given the COVID context, so that they can do Ten further along: right by the people of this province. “Te subvote also provides for initiatives to close the socioeco- nomic gaps between Indigenous peoples and other British Colum- M. de Jong: Two things fow from that answer. Te bians, including the identifcation of opportunities, the removal of barriers, the cross-ministry coordination of resources and services frst thing is, if I haven’t made this abundantly clear, for provided to Indigenous peoples.” the purpose of this conversation, I’m not worried about Further along: the 13th month. I’m concerned about the instrument the minister and the government have chosen to use to “…support to Indigenous leadership and advisory bodies and for administration of the frst citizens fund, the First Nations clean address that 13th month, but that is not the focus of my energy business fund special account and related transfers.” question with respect to section 1 that we’re discussing So a whole lot included in that vote description. at the moment. Fair to say that until…. Tis is one of the reasons for Secondly, though, the minister, I think, has made the the secrecy associated with the budget. Until the budget point, and I’m happy that she did, for organizations…. I’m is actually tabled and the minister stands up, in whatever going to, in a moment, ask about, by way of example, one format that takes next year…. Until that is actually tabled, organization. Any of those organizations that have become no one knows for certain what the budgeted allocation will accustomed to receiving news from the provincial govern- be for fscal year ’21-22. ment about budgetary allocations in February or March Is that correct? — March is the case now, although no one has had to do that; it’s always been February previously — will just have Hon. S. Robinson: We are certain that we will continue to adapt. I expect they will. to fund government for a 13th month — that’s, I think, the By way of example, the leadership council. It historically best frame to look at it — and until we table a budget a few has received some capacity funding from the provincial weeks later that will contain the full fscal framework for government. It has tended to vary from year to year. I the full year and going forward. think the point the minister is making is they shouldn’t worry about what she has termed “the 13th month,” but Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 243 with respect to learning about provincial contributions for these extraordinary times, taking an extraordinary meas- the next fscal year, they’ll just have to wait the three or ure is what’s needed. four weeks until the budget is tabled. I am confdent that they’ll recognize the importance of Have I got that right? the extra time that we need to prepare a proper budget. [2:15 p.m.] M. de Jong: I’ve been listening. I am listening, as I Hon. S. Robinson: As the member well knows, when always do, to the minister very carefully. Te language here you’re building a budget, you engage with stakeholders as is important. What I thought I heard her say, and what I part of any budget development. Tat work has been going thought I heard her do, was to include First Nations and on and will continue to go on through the next number of Aboriginal representatives within the broad spectrum of months. stakeholders. In a moment, I’m going to query the minis- I want to point out to the member that we’re still several ter as to whether or not she feels comfortable doing that months away from an April date for tabling a budget. Mak- in light of the state of the law in British Columbia. But I’ll ing sure that they can adjust to a new timing is certainly come to that in a moment. going to be part of the work. It is part of the work. But What I think I heard the minister say is that there we also recognize that COVID has turned everything, per- was…. Well, not what I think. I know I heard the min- haps not upside down but a little bit unusual for all of us, ister say that there were no external discussions with including those stakeholders. respect to Bill 3. Tey, too, are looking to adjust — adjust their service I have a couple of technical questions about section 1, delivery, adjust how they engage, using the technology and Bill 3 in its entirety. Did Bill 3 go to legislative review now so that they can do so safely. I know that they, too, committee? are looking forward to a budget, but I also know that they want a budget that is well-thought-out, that is meaningful Hon. S. Robinson: First of all, I want to acknowledge to and that makes a diference to the people that we collect- the member opposite that in the course of this exchange, ively serve. Making sure that they can adjust their plans is using broad language and talking about stakeholders, he’s certainly part of the work and part of the undertaking of choosing to talk about a particular stakeholder, a particu- delivering a budget several weeks afer the current legis- lar group. I certainly am talking about broader than that. lated requirement. But I recognize, and this government recognizes, that First Nation governments are other governments. So to M. de Jong: Tat’s most helpful. I think the point that suggest somehow that we don’t recognize that, I think, is the minister is making is that stakeholder groups, the disappointing, because we do recognize that that is a par- broad spectrum of society, will need to adjust to take these ticular group. changes into account, to take into account the reasons that In terms of…. Te member asked about the process for she has given for the changes. development of this bill. Tat is under cabinet confdenti- But one of those stakeholders has a slightly diferent ality. relationship with the government. I’ll come to that in a moment. Well, maybe I’ll come to it right now. Before M. de Jong: Well, I won’t spend a lot of time on this. making this change to the budgetary process, which is Te conversations that take place at a cabinet committee what this represents, in a way that does have an impact are certainly privileged. In my experience in this House, on numerous stakeholders, including Aboriginal groups, the question about whether or not a bill has been reviewed Indigenous Peoples, did the minister and the government by the legislative review committee is certainly not. discuss that change with the First Nations and, for ex- [2:25 p.m.] ample, the leadership council? [2:20 p.m.] Hon. S. Robinson: Given that the LRC is a committee of government, everything about it, including its agenda, Hon. S. Robinson: Tere were no external consulta- is confdential. It is under the rubric of confdentiality. tions prior to tabling this bill, but we are months away. Part of the plan, once we are fnished debating this bill, M. de Jong: I have been here long enough to know that is to reach out to these groups to reassure them that gov- the minister has struck her position on this and is not ernment is going to continue to be there for them, to likely to be dissuaded. Tat is the frst time in over 25 years explain to them how we’re going to continue to support that a minister has refused, in my knowledge, to acknow- them through, I guess, the 13th month — that seems to be ledge to the House whether a piece of legislation has been the language that we have settled on here in this discus- reviewed by the legislative review committee of cabinet. sion — to make sure that they know that they are going It is not a question of what was discussed. It is not a to be kept whole until we can pass a budget, and that in question of what advice was received. It is merely a ques- tion of whether or not the legislation that the minister is 244 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 commending to this committee and ultimately the House Hon. S. Robinson: I was checking in with folks on the to adopt has enjoyed the beneft of review by the legislative AirPods, and this, too, is under cabinet confdentiality. review committee. I’m going to give the minister one more chance. I think M. de Jong: Was there a certifcate of readiness, and if I know what her answer is going to be, and that is astound- so, who signed it? ing. [2:40 p.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: Well, thank you for that. Hon. S. Robinson: I think the member does know that Te member knows full well that even agenda items his specifc question does fall under cabinet confdential- are considered confdential. Agenda items for commit- ity. But I also want to reassure the member that I received tees are considered confdential for government, and all of my advice from the legal services branch with the that is my fnal answer. Te member could certainly take Attorney General’s ofce on this piece of legislation, and the time to continue to ask that, but the answer is going that we followed all recommended processes. to be consistent. M. de Jong: For the throngs of people watching this M. de Jong: No, I think the record will speak for itself. exchange, the certifcate of readiness that I was referring I think we have, in the frst session of this new parliament, to has been, historically, the document that a sponsoring embarked upon a new era of opaqueness when it comes to minister must secure and sign before proceeding with the workings of government. tabling of a bill in this chamber. It is confrmation that Was there a request for legislation, and if so, who signed the bill is in a form suitable for passage and enactment. it? Te minister has said that she is unwilling to provide, to [2:30 p.m.] the committee, confrmation that a certifcate of readiness confrming its suitability for passage and enactment was [N. Letnick in the chair.] secured prior to tabling the bill. Is that correct? [2:45 p.m.] Hon. S. Robinson: Te member full well knows how budget legislation is treated through process. He knows Hon. S. Robinson: Te member knows this as well: full well that budget legislation typically, traditionally, before a bill goes into the House, it has to be satisfactory doesn’t go through LRC. He knows that. He knows that to the ofce of the legal services branch in the Ministry of really quite well. Attorney General, and here we have it in the House. He also knows what is required to be under cabinet con- fdentiality. I just fnd it really interesting, the pathway of M. de Jong: I want to move on to the matter that questions, when I know that this member knows full well actually precipitated my asking these questions. Just to the process for dealing with budget legislation. summarize, then — I do this so that the minister has an opportunity to correct me on the record if I get this M. de Jong: Well, the minister, sadly, is incorrect. Tis wrong — what we have learned in the last little bit is that is not legislation about a budget. Tis is a piece of process the minister won’t say who initiated the legislation with legislation. a request for legislation, or if there even was a formal [2:35 p.m.] request for legislation. Te minister is absolutely correct when it comes to tax- She won’t say if it was reviewed by the legislative review ation instruments and when it comes to the budget itself. committee, the cabinet committee charged with the task of Tere is great secrecy attached to that, and it does not reviewing legislation before it comes to this chamber. She weave its way through the usual processes. won’t even say if the prerequisite document, the certifc- But she is wrong — I think conveniently wrong — ate of readiness, was signed of on by someone — presum- when she suggests that legislation of this sort…. And I ably someone in the executive council. Despite all that, she am well positioned to tell her that she’s wrong, because urges support for this piece of legislation from the com- this has nothing to do with a particular budget. Tis is mittee and from the House. Did I get any of that incorrect? about a process, this is about transparency, and this is about accountability. Hon. S. Robinson: I was getting some legal advice. I was Since the minister has invited discussion about the pro- also listening very carefully, prior to getting legal advice, to cess, historically the process has been for there to be…. By the choice of words that the member was using in terms of the way, my question was about a request for legislation — asking the question. He seems to be insinuating — and he it had nothing to do with LRC — and the minister didn’t started with saying — that I won’t say. Tis isn’t about what answer that. Maybe I should give her a chance to answer I…. It’s what I can’t say. Te member knows full well what the question. Was there an RFL, and who signed it? cabinet confdence is and the requirement to maintain it. Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 245

Te questions he’s asking are under cabinet confdentiality, Hon. S. Robinson: I think I understand where the and my response is that I can’t say. member is wanting to take this line of questioning. I rec- ognize the path that he’s trying to suggest here. M. de Jong: Well, we will, then, agree to difer, because What I’m pointing out to this House and to the member the questions I have asked, historically, have been very in particular is that we are in an unprecedented time. Mak- much in order and very much appropriate. I will conclude ing sure that we keep things stable for the extra few weeks that the minister doesn’t want to answer, and we will that are needed in order to build a budget benefts every- simply agree to disagree on that point. body — including Indigenous communities, including Just over a year ago, this chamber and the committee Indigenous governments — recognizing that there’s a lot were involved in what was described — I think appropri- of work for us to do collectively. Tere’s a lot of work for us ately — as a historic debate. Te bill was 41. It was the bill to do in government, and a lot of work for the public ser- dealing with the United Nations declaration on the rights vice to do, to put together an entire budget framework that of Indigenous peoples. is churning as we speak, but it needs more time. [2:50 p.m.] With that, I want to also recognize that the member Te then Minister of Indigenous Relations and Recon- is insinuating somehow that there is signifcant impact to ciliation, in speaking to that bill in the lengthy conversa- these other groups — these First Nations as one of them, tion, the lengthy exchange, I think fruitful exchange that one of many — and we are reassuring everybody that we took place in committee, had some things to say about the are going to continue extending what currently exists for obligations of government and about the impact that pas- everybody until we table a budget in April. sage of that legislation would have on government. He said this on December 19, about Bill 41: “Tis is M. de Jong: Look, even if I accepted the minister’s argu- enabling legislation. It provides direction to government ment on the general provisions of section 1, which I don’t, to address existing laws and future legislation as it’s being it doesn’t alter the fact that through introduction and pas- contemplated to bring those in line over time with the sage — and, by the way, unanimous passage — of Bill 41, principles of the UN Declaration.” the government assumed some specifc obligations — leg- Does the minister agree with that statement? al obligations. Te minister has demonstrated a great willingness to Hon. S. Robinson: Tank you very much, and of course cite legal principles here. By the way, the legal obligations I agree with that statement by my former colleague who didn’t come with a caveat in Bill 41. Tey weren’t legal did a heroic efort in getting us to UNDRIP, and it was a obligations when it was convenient for government to do historic day when we brought forward that legislation. I’d so. Here’s what the then Minister of Indigenous Relations like to fnd out from the member…. I await where he’s tak- had to say. I cited section 3 of Bill 41. ing us in relation to this bill and what his thoughts are. It He said this: “Ten sections 3, 4 and 5…. Tat starts the would be really helpful. process for a transparent and accountable process towards changes that can be made to bring laws into alignment and M. de Jong: Well it surely isn’t a mystery to the minister. address new legislation, make sure they’re in alignment, She has described how the impact of this legislation will with the UN declaration.” Ten, further in the exchange: require agencies, groups, Indigenous groups, First Nations, “We’ve stated our intention to amend laws and create new to adjust. It has an impact as it relates to the budgetary link laws, ensuring that they’re in alignment with the UN between the provincial government. declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples.” Bill 41 imposed some very specifc obligations on the [3:00 p.m.] government. I’m interested to know whether or not the I’ll ask the minister now. Based on the answers she has government fulflled those obligations. Te initial indica- given so far, I am rapidly coming to my own conclusion. tion is that they did not. Te minister made the point only Does she believe the government has met its obligations a few moments ago that there were no discussions with with respect to Bill 41 and the UN declaration on the anyone. rights of Indigenous peoples, with respect to Bill 3? I’m going to query the minister, and I’m going to take her to section 3 of that historic piece of legislation, which Hon. S. Robinson: I’m just wondering if I can ask for a says the following: “In consultation and cooperation with brief recess. the Indigenous peoples in British Columbia, the govern- ment must take all measures necessary to ensure the laws Te Chair: We’ll have a fve-minute recess. of British Columbia are consistent with the declaration.” Does the minister agree that this Bill 3 before the com- Te committee recessed from 3:01 p.m. to 3:08 p.m. mittee is captured by the provisions of section 3 of Bill 41? [2:55 p.m.] [N. Letnick in the chair.] 246 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020

Hon. S. Robinson: Tank you very much. I appreciate and the committee that she is wrong is no less than the the break. former Indigenous Relations Minister, who had the ques- In relation to the member’s question, the historic day tion put to him specifcally. and passage of the DRIPA was pretty signifcant, but I Now, here’s what he said. Asked whether Bill 41 and think we need to remember the intent of that legislation the UN declaration applies to laws of general application, and the principles that are behind that legislation. Te which is what we have before us here, the minister said: principles of that act are about rights and title and the UN “Yes, it applies to the laws of general application, as it may declaration. afect them as referenced in the conditions within article We have many laws, and many laws will certainly pass 19.” Not just a question about the declaration in general, through this House. Many laws have been debated and will a question about the obligations that fow to government continue to be debated in this House. Our understand- under article 19. Her colleague said that, yes, it applies to ing is that this bill doesn’t have direct impact on rights laws of general application. and title. Te path that I think the member is going down He said further, on the same day, “Tis is intended to doesn’t apply to this bill, in terms of our understanding. apply to British Columbia’s provincial legislation,”no qual- ifcations. Does the minister accept that? Her previous M. de Jong: Well, that’s very, very interesting and in- statement suggests that she does not. Now would be a good formative. Te minister’s answer is on the record. time to clarify the ambiguity. Bill 41. Te reason we are able to use terms like “histor- ic” is because it did more than just articulate a feeling. It Hon. S. Robinson: Perhaps I can provide some clarity created a law. In fact, Bill 41 says that the United Nations for the member. It does apply to a law of general applica- declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples is now the tion if that law afects Aboriginal title, and this law does law in B.C. It says that. not. [3:10 p.m.] I want to ask the minister, in relation to the bill and M. de Jong: Tat’s nonsense. Is the…? I mean, I am the section before the House that she happily has already astounded by what I have just heard. In fact, I’m so established has an impact on a whole bunch of people, astounded that I want…. Well, I don’t want. It doesn’t including Aboriginal peoples, in terms of the fscal rela- matter what I want. tionship with the provincial government…. She will un- I will provide the minister with an opportunity to con- doubtedly try to want to minimize that. I would say that sult with her staf again, because I just heard the Finance creating an extra month of uncertainty around the coming Minister of the province of British Columbia state Bill 41 fscal year and budgetary allocations is not an insignifcant and the UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous people impact, but she will characterize it diferently, I’m sure. only apply to laws — bills introduced, laws passed in this Article 19 of the United Nations declaration says this. chamber — that afect Aboriginal title. I’ll read it. “States shall consult and cooperate in good I’ve got binders of authority from her own colleague faith with the Indigenous peoples concerned through stating otherwise. But before I get too worked up, I think their own representative institutions in order to obtain the minister misspoke. I want to give her an opportunity their free, prior and informed consent before adopting to correct the record. and implementing legislative or administrative measures [3:20 p.m.] that may afect them.” It sounds to me like Article 19 has application here. Hon. S. Robinson: I did check with our legal team, and Does the minister agree? I did misspeak, because I lef out “rights and title.” So I will, for the record, clarify that it applies to a law of gener- Hon. S. Robinson: I’m going to go back again to the al application if that law afects Aboriginal rights and title. legislation, DRIPA. Again, our bill doesn’t touch on the Tis one does not. principles of rights and title and the UN declaration. Changing a budget date does not impact on those prin- M. de Jong: Tat will make for very interesting read- ciples. ing on the part of those that stood with the government, [3:15 p.m.] particularly those in the Indigenous, Aboriginal, First Nation communities who had something very diferent M. de Jong: Te minister’s argument now, on behalf of to say, and the minister’s colleague, who had something the government, seems to be that Bill 3 was not covered very diferent to say. by the provisions of Bill 41. I’m not entirely sure what her I don’t think the minister has read the UN declaration. reasoning is. It seems to be that according to her, the only Te minister indicates that she has. things that are covered by that would be legislation dealing Here’s another quote from her colleague, the former with rights and title — her phrase, not mine. minister, in the course of debating section 41. He said Except she’s wrong. My authority for suggesting to her this: “I think it’s safe to say that there’s going to be deeper Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 247

and more involved consultation between the province and pursuant to article 19, obtain the free, prior and in- First Nations — or those nations afected, certainly, or if formed consent of Indigenous Peoples prior to the intro- nations are afected as a whole. Tat is what’s contemplated duction of Bill 3? within the bill. Te province is expected to ‘consult and [3:30 p.m.] cooperate in good faith,’ as called for in the UN declara- tion, when considering decisions that may afect Indigen- Hon. S. Robinson: I have answered the question. ous peoples.” In the entire conversation that took place over the M. de Jong: We can get Hansard, and you will be hard- course of two weeks between the opposition and the min- pressed to fnd an answer. ister representing the government, never once was the If I have to say it for her, I will. Te minister’s position qualifcation added that the minister is now endeavouring seems to be: “We didn’t talk to anyone. We didn’t talk to apply. I know why, based on her own answers to some to Indigenous peoples or their representatives because we of these questions, she is trying to apply the qualifcation: didn’t have to.” So the answer to the question is no. because the government didn’t talk to anyone. Tey didn’t I’m not sure why…. Te minister looks, candidly, very talk to anyone. unsure of herself. I understand why. She’s breaking new Let me go back to article 19. You know, what’s interest- ground for the government with respect to the UN declar- ing and why it’s frustrating and why it must be horribly ation on the rights of Indigenous peoples. frustrating…. I’m going to ask again. I’m going to present this propos- Te government wants to talk about the steps that were ition to the minister, I hope as fairly as I can, based on the taken one year ago, Bill 41, and the declaration. Tey are answers that she has given. It is her and the government’s less comfortable acknowledging the very real obligations position that when changing budgetary procedural mat- that fow from that and, particularly, less comfortable ters like the dates of the budget…. Even though that afects when it appears that they did not meet those obligations. people that receive money from the government, includ- Article 19: “States shall consult and cooperate in good ing Aboriginal peoples, it is not something that triggers faith with the indigenous peoples concerned through their an obligation under the UN declaration, under article 19 own representative institutions in order to obtain their specifcally. Terefore, no attempt was made to secure free, free, prior and informed consent before adopting and prior and informed consent. implementing legislative or administrative measures that Is anything about that statement incorrect? may afect them.” Tere’s no qualifer there. Te minister says that she’s Hon. S. Robinson: I’ll state once again that changing a read it. If she can fnd a place in the declaration or in the date for the budget, with no interruptions of funding and act that qualifes the application of these provisions in art- services, does not have an impact on Indigenous rights icle 19, then she should tell the committee. and title. Tat’s not to say…. Tere are other laws. Tere My question to the minister — and I’d like her to put it are many laws that afect Indigenous people that we have on the record — is: prior to introducing Bill 3, which alters here in British Columbia. Government is absolutely com- the budgetary process in a way that will have some impact, mitted to fulflling our obligations to align those laws, as some efect, on the Crown’s relationship with Indigenous per DRIPA. Peoples and Indigenous groups, did she obtain their free, prior and informed consent before proceeding? Te Chair: Tank you, Minister. [3:25 p.m.] [3:35 p.m.] To the member, we’re still on section 1. I would just ask, [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] having heard this debate back and forth considerably on this point, if the member might look to a new line of ques- Hon. S. Robinson: We may have to agree to disagree on tioning. We’ve heard the minister’s response to this ques- this point. Article 19 does direct government to engage in tion now, and I know there are other questions that are still consultation when laws have a direct efect on Indigenous standing. Peoples, absolutely. Changing a budget day does not have that kind of efect. M. de Jong: Tanks, as always, for your guidance, hon. Chair. I think you missed the adjective “fascinating” M. de Jong: We are happily, or unhappily, as the case debate, which I’m sure you would want to characterize it may be, learning a great deal more as a result of this as. Rest assured that I am drawing near to the close of this exchange about how the government regards the applica- line of questioning. tion of the UN declaration. I think that will come as news I’m sure that within government, the wheels are turn- to many people. But it still wasn’t an answer to the ques- ing quickly, but the minister may wish to inform the tion, and I’m not going to extrapolate. newly minted Minister of Indigenous Relations and My question to the minister was: did the government, Reconciliation of the information and advice she has 248 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 provided to the House and the committee today about M. de Jong: Very quickly, not to revisit old ground, the the limited application of the UN declaration. It would point of it all, including the declaration and the applicable not surprise me at all if that matter were to be pursued declarations, is that if that is the view of the government — with him in due course. I accept that that is the case, if the minister says so — then I have the minister’s mandate letter. Te second bullet — there is an obligation to have that discussion before taking I don’t know if they’re listed in order of priority or not, but action, not afer. Tat’s the part that the government has the fact that it appears in the mandate letter, No. 2 of fve conveniently missed. points — charges her with the task of efecting meaningful Te meeting with the forecast council. Has a date been reconciliation and refers specifcally to the UN declaration scheduled, and will it — as it has been at least for the num- — including, of course, article 19. Te minister has con- ber of years that I was acquainted with it — be open to frmed for the committee that she and her ministry and the media and members of the public? government as a whole took no steps to engage with Indi- genous peoples’ leadership on this matter in a way that I Hon. S. Robinson: A date has not been set just yet. believe is required under article 19. She has ofered a dra- Probably early in the new year is when we’re going to set matically diferent opinion of that. it. It will be open to the public and media and will be the Is the minister satisfed that less than a month into her same format as we’ve provided in the past. term as Minister of Finance, she is honouring the intent and the objectives set out by the Premier, in his mandate M. de Jong: Well, that’s good news. When the minister letter to her, with respect to the UN declaration? says “same format” — with the qualifer that, historically, it has been an in-person event — this will be, presumably, Hon. S. Robinson: I believe I have answered all of these some kind of a virtual gathering. Tat’s good news. Te questions that relate to DRIPA. trajectory of the past has been for the forecast council to meet in late November or early December and provide an M. de Jong: I would say answered in dramatic fashion, update in January. Is the minister at all concerned that the frankly. It will be instructive to many. information and the advice becomes stale the longer you It is certainly instructive to me and instructive to learn push of the budget? how the fscal relationship that derives from the budget [3:45 p.m.] and that links the provincial government with Indigenous governments would be characterized by the minister so Hon. S. Robinson: It would be the same period of dismissively. “Oh, it’s only a matter of a few weeks, a time as would normally be the case. In normal years, month.” Tat’s her story, and she’s sticking to it. it’s a February budget. Tey get surveyed several months Just another quick couple of questions. We are talking, prior. It’ll be the same amount of time, with it bumped in section 1, about the budget, the dates for the budget and up in the calendar year. the budgetary process. Te minister has talked about that. Tat budgetary cycle historically has included a meeting M. de Jong: I think I’m drawing to the close. I asked between the Minister of Finance and the forecast council. about the forecast council because, of course, it’s a cre- Did that meeting take place, or is it scheduled to take ation…. Well, I’m coming to my conclusion of my parti- place, presumably by Zoom or some other virtual means? cipation with respect to section 1. [3:40 p.m.] What the minister, I think, has been confronted by is a concern, sometimes clumsily articulated by me, on the dis- Hon. S. Robinson: I want to assure the member oppos- mantling of a discipline and rigour around the budgeting ite…. I was thinking about his closing comments, closing process. She will want to explain, and has tried to explain, of the component part of the questions he was asking about how circumstances have made that essential. But regarding our commitments to UNDRIP. I was thinking this province has been served very, very well, through a about the real impact to having more time to build a series of administrations, by that discipline and rigour. budget in a COVID context and thinking about how Ironically, the forecast council was a layer of discipline COVID has impacted Indigenous communities right that, if I’m not mistaken, was essentially what was created around the province. Making sure that we have a robust in the dying days of the administration of the 1990s, in and meaningful budget that addresses those very specifc the afermath of a horrible case of budgetary manipula- impacts, I think, is absolutely critical. tion, where evidence arose of political interference, with So I would argue with the member opposite that taking the addition of added “optimism,” as I think the term was, these extra days, these extra weeks, to build a budget that in forecast numbers. It was scandalous. takes care of people, that takes care of Indigenous com- Te schedule that has been followed, and the discipline munities, is the absolute right thing to be doing. In relation associated with that, in removing the ability of govern- to his question, I will be meeting with the forecast council ments of various political stripes to tinker with and prior to budget, and it will be a virtual meeting. manipulate not just the numbers but the schedule…. We Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 249

haven’t even come to the questions around quarterly fall election. Tat’s just part of an election cycle framework reports. Over the fve years I sat in that chair, I guess, by that was put together back in 2018. my calculation, we did 20 quarterly reports. Tey all came Now, in July — I know the member won’t necessarily in on time. It wasn’t easy. agree with me — there was no recognition or…. I certainly I think what the minister is confronted by is a genuine wasn’t expecting a fall election. I knew that I would get concern on the part of the opposition that all of that is some sort of reaction to that, but so be it. But that is the being dismantled under the guise of responding to a one- case. We were dealing with COVID and addressing some of — albeit a signifcant one-of — situation. As we move of the challenges that came with a signifcant pandemic. forward through the bill, we’ll have an opportunity to dis- Here we are, post–fall election and looking at what is cuss some of those matters. before us, talking with the public service about what they I’m not sure I have some pithy fnal query for the min- need in order to put together this signifcant body of work ister, except to ofer that as on observation for why she is that comes with putting together a budget, and the time- being met by some very strong opposition and concerns line is far too compressed, given the signifcant challenges, around the frst bill she has brought to this House as Fin- in order to do the work that needs to be done. ance Minister. [3:55 p.m.] I know that the members opposite, and this member in Hon. S. Robinson: I just want to respond that we’ll be particular, want to make sure that you get all the informa- using the same discipline and the same rigour that have tion in, that you take the time to get it right. Tat’s a value been applied to the budgeting process. Tat’s our intent. that I know she has. I think it’s a value that everybody in Te bill that’s before the House is to recognize that we have this House has. been, and we are in, unprecedented times and that we need What we’re saying is that we need the time to get it a few more weeks to get the budget tabled here in this right so that it works for British Columbians. It’s with that House, given the very extraordinary circumstances. in mind that we are here saying to this House that we [3:50 p.m.] need, and the public service needs, an additional 30 days, because of the COVID challenges, in order to deliver a S. Furstenau: I don’t have anywhere near the volume budget that works. that the ofcial opposition has in questions, but I’m just picking up on what the minister just said about being S. Furstenau: Tank you to the minister for that. I do in unprecedented times and needing additional time — think getting things right is really important. I also think, ultimately, two additional months — to bring forward a sort of, being really upfront and straightforward about budget. things is also very important, especially at a time when Te minister has been speaking a great deal about COV- governments everywhere need to be ensuring that people ID and the unprecedented times. However, we were here feel that they can trust. in August, until August 14. Te budget implementation In 2017, there was a May election. Ten, in June of bill, Bill 4, passed on July 28, which gave the original 2017, government changed. In September of 2017, a 30-day extension. In between those two times, the unpre- budget update was brought forward. In February of cedented thing that happened was a snap election during a 2018, a budget was brought forward. Tose are some pandemic, which put government into caretaker mode for pretty compressed times, and government had capacity two months, which is exactly the amount of time that this to do it. I’m fully aware of the reason why Bill 4 had government is now saying it needs, in addition, to present the clause in it to add the 30 days extension, or the end its budget for 2021. of March extension for the budget, because of the argu- I guess what I’m looking for is the minister’s take on ment around the fall election. how much of the need for this additional extension is In some ways, it’s…. We’re here, and as has been pointed related to the two months during which government was out by the Ofcial Opposition, the one piece of legislation in caretaker mode because of the election. we’re debating in the midst of this pandemic is this exten- sion to the budget while people all over the province are Hon. S. Robinson: Tis got canvassed earlier, so I’ll struggling with all sorts of circumstances as a result of this repeat it for the record and for the member, who may not pandemic. have been here in the chamber at the time. I don’t recall. One of the examples I brought up in my second reading Back in 2018, legislation was changed for the election speech was a business owner in Duncan who lost his busi- cycle to do a fall election. One of the things that wasn’t ness afer decades and then can’t get an extension or can’t considered at the time was the budget timing related to a get a payment plan agreed to by the Ministry of Finance fall election, so this summer legislation was brought in to to pay the outstanding PST that he owes and now is faced recognize the need for and the challenges of having a com- with possibly losing his house on top of losing his business. pressed time to put together an election, should there be a So on the one hand, the Ministry of Finance is saying to the people that are struggling right now because of COV- 250 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020

ID, because of the fnancial impacts: “Sorry, deadlines are that says 150 days is what’s needed in order to deliver a deadlines.” Ten, on the other hand, we’re in here, saying: budget. However, if you aren’t in extraordinary times, you “We need an extension.” I guess that’s a challenge for those can certainly do it sooner. Tere is nothing that says you of us on this side of the House. can’t do it sooner. April 30 is the end date that we’re pro- I’ve refected a lot in the last few weeks about what else posing in this legislation. was lost over the course of the two months that govern- ment was in caretaker mode and budgets weren’t being S. Furstenau: I guess it’s just a challenge to be able to worked on and plans weren’t being made and things wer- square what was said during the snap election and what’s en’t moving forward. Part of what was lost was that. unfolding here. During the election, the Premier and the Of course, there was still opposition and there was a NDP claimed over and over again that the snap election third party and there was a minority government. But was not going to have any impact on programs and sup- there was a level of recognition that we all needed to rise ports going out the door. But we’ve heard from lots of above, in this moment that we were in, because it is unpre- people and businesses and organizations that, indeed, cedented and the people in this province are experiencing there was an impact. difculties unlike anything any of us have seen in our lives. Ten we heard over and over again that the reason the Tat’s also lost. election had to happen was because the government I’ll get to a question. Te minister has been suggesting needed stability to be able to deal with the pandemic. Yet that it’s because of the pandemic, because of COVID, that we’ve come back, and instead of being able to move for- this additional extra time is needed for getting the budget ward with all the work for those two months when we wer- completed. My question to the minister is: then why not en’t here and there was a caretaker government, we now make this a one-time extension instead of permanent? fnd out that there is this long delay that’s going to be a part [4:00 p.m.] of the budget process, which will further delay the pro- grams and supports that need to go. Hon. S. Robinson: In a typical year, in a non-election I heard the minister. Yes, we are here. We are also year, the budget process typically starts in the summer going to be discussing the supplementary budget piece. and goes through the fall to a February budget date. Tat’s I think that it’s…. It’s not impossible to say that yeah, the about a seven-month process. election slowed things down. It delayed things. It meant [4:05 p.m.] that those two months when the budgeting work could Te legislation that was brought forward in the summer, have been going on, it wasn’t happening, and now we recognizing a fall election date, will need a diferent kind need the delay. It’s okay to say that. I think it’s probably of framework. Te recommended option was 120 days at pretty accurate, that had there not been the election, we the time, recognizing that you needed to have some time would not be needing to see this further extension to the identifed for building a budget for any new government. budgeting process. What COVID has taught us is that stuf happens. Stuf I’ll leave it there. I think that my question to end with is: happens that makes things more complex, and in order to how can the minister square these claims that were made gather the information, in order to take a look at the fore- with the reality and the experiences of people that are hap- casts, in order to engage with the economics community, pening in businesses and organizations that are express- it’s incumbent on us to be prepared for all inevitabilities. ing concerns about delays that are happening? Maybe just COVID has taught us that 120 days is just not efcient to being able to acknowledge and recognize, yeah, choices do all the work that is necessary to build a budget that were made, and they had consequences, and here we are. works for the people today and works for the people that [4:10 p.m.] the member is speaking about. We’re going to move forward, but it’s okay to say there We’re here not just to do this budget. We’re here for sup- were consequences for the choices that were made. plementary estimates, as well, to get recovery money out to people so that they can continue to pay bills, continue Hon. S. Robinson: First of all, I want to correct the to buy their kids winter coats if that’s what they need — record that programs and services continued in spite of an recognizing that this is a difcult time for people. election. Programs that were announced in March, with We are here doing the people’s business because it is a the help of this House…. Getting a supplementary bill that difcult time for people, and it’s going to continue to be helped put money in people’s pockets, that made sure that a difcult time. We know that things have been turned programs and services were there for people, making sure upside down for many, for many businesses and for many that Health had the budget it needed in order to keep families and for many people, and we need to build a doing the good work that it’s doing, taking care of our budget that continues to take care of people in the short seniors and our vulnerable populations — that continued term and in the long term. through the election period. I think it’s really important to Taking the time to get it right is, I think, really import- understand that nothing stopped. ant. It’s for that reason that we are putting forward a bill Yes, government might have been in caretaker mode, Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 251 but the work of the public service was very externally Trone. Te work is done, and a budget is presented focused, completely externally focused, to make sure that shortly thereafer. people had what they needed. Te public service did a Last summer, this summer that just passed, government stellar, outstanding job. Tat was their number one focus came forward and asked for an extension of 30 days, which for all of those months. Trough the summer, absolutely took us to March 30. Te minister is now in front of us through the summer, and right through the fall, that is with this bill. Sorry, it wasn’t March 30; it was the fourth what they did. We tasked them as a government. We gave Tuesday in March. She’s now asking for an extension to them the tools and the resources that they needed in order April 30. to deliver for people. Tat’s exactly what they did. I just want the minister to correct me if my math is It’s because of their work to be outward-focused that wrong. Next year, if we go with the bill, as it’s changed — there really wasn’t, because of COVID, the energy being fourth Tuesday in March, which is March 23; she’s now put into developing a budget. It was really a very, very asking for this extension to April 30 — that’s actually, on difcult time to multi-task in that way. I think that there the calendar, six weeks, 40 days. Will she agree with that needs to be some recognition of the incredible work that comment? the public service has been doing all of these months — non-stop, long hours — to make sure that the decisions Hon. S. Robinson: I want to be really clear that this is that are made here in this House are carried out by those only for election years when we have an election in the people. fall. When it’s not an election year, it is February — just Tis bill ensures that even with a few weeks’ delay in standard practice, what we have always been doing in this terms of tabling the budget, the programs and services House. will continue as they need to for the people that we serve. When you pull out the calendar, fve weeks and three Tat’s certainly necessary for people and, I think, for gov- days is the diference. ernment. I imagine that everybody in this House wants to see that continue. M. Bernier: Okay. Appreciate the minister doing that. To the member’s question, recognizing that we haven’t Maybe that’ll help going forward, because one of the had to put together a pandemic budget ever. Ever. Te things I also am wondering…. So it’s fve weeks, three pandemic hit afer the last budget was tabled. We’ve all days. Doesn’t matter. We’ll talk about a month-ish, what- been working hard, everyone in this House, to take care ever, for simplicity as we go forward. of our constituents. Tat’s been the primary focus, in con- Maybe the minister, then, can walk me through a little sultation with the public service. Te folks that put togeth- bit of a timeline of how she sees next year, which will er all the budget documents — all the estimates, the bills be the budget cycle afer an election year. We’re acknow- — are saying, and their advice to us as government is, that ledging and I acknowledge that that’s what this bill is chan- additional time is needed in order to get this right. ging — just an election year. I’ll ask, maybe, the minister more questions about that later. Te assumption is every M. Bernier: Tank you to the other people that have year, therefore, aferwards we’ll be back in February, unless asked some really good questions. I think it’s important as it’s an election year. Agree with that. we move forward to really highlight some of the stresses, Can the minister walk me through, then, how she sees, challenges, not only that people are facing but I think in with the passage of this bill — and the assumption is gov- the House here, as we’re trying to understand the top pri- ernment will be passing this bill, obviously — next year orities of this government and why this came forward. looking? [4:15 p.m.] [4:20 p.m.] I want to give the minister an opportunity here. I think Te reason I ask that is that we’ve typically always been we just need to clarify something, because it’s been men- here in February, just so the minister knows where my tioned so many times throughout the course of the day headspace is on this. We typically come here. We have the already. I just want to — maybe it’s semantics — get this on budget in February, and then we start the estimates pro- the record, and it’ll help the minister, maybe, in her dia- cess based on what the Minister of Finance has presented logue going forward, because she’s used a couple of difer- afer budget day, for each individual ministry, for us to be ent terminologies of: “Don’t worry. Tis is only a couple able to ask questions, dissect the government’s budget. of weeks.” Earlier today she said it’s only an extension of a I’m just trying to understand how she sees that timeline couple of days. looking and how that will now be stretched out further I just want to make sure we’re all clear. Tis is not only into next year as we go through an estimates process based for the House but for the public as well. Every single on the budget presented. budget that we’ve had in the past has been delivered on the fourth Tuesday of February. Te House is usually called Hon. S. Robinson: Just for clarifcation, you’re talking back the second week of February for a Speech from the about what happens here in the House? 252 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020

M. Bernier: Sorry. Just to clarify, yes. it — to be back here at the beginning of February to do the people’s work? Hon. S. Robinson: Te member is thinking ahead, and he’s right. You need to build in the time to do a fulsome Hon. S. Robinson: It is really up to the House Leaders debate. Whether or not we have one, two, or three com- to make the determination about when the House sits and mittees operating at the same time or how much time is how long the House sits. allocated to each of the budget estimates, it’s really up to [4:35 p.m.] the House Leaders to determine how to best proceed to have a fulsome debate about the budget. M. Bernier: I assumed that would be the answer. But I think it’s also important just to recognize that this bill in M. Bernier: Of course, the expectation will be, as the front of us can and actually will have impacts on a multi- minister has been highlighting here in the House…. She tude of things — how the House, maybe, functions, other is asking for an extension to be able to put a wholesome delays that might take place. budget together. Tere would be an expectation of this Te expectation will be, obviously, that the House House and all the members of this House that we would comes back and sits, because even though the minister is be granted that equivalent honour of extension and what’s asking for a delay in the work she has to do putting togeth- required to make sure that whatever budget is put forward er her budget — we discussed some of the challenges that gets the proper scrutiny and the proper discussion and she’s trying to highlight in order to do that — that doesn’t debate here in the House by the opposition, on behalf of stop the work of government in other areas. the people in British Columbia. Te minister has highlighted the stresses and the chal- Can the minister then maybe confrm for me…? I’m lenges that people are facing right now in British Col- afraid I know the answer, but I think it’s an important umbia. We’re with her. We agree. Te people of B.C. question. Can the minister confrm that we’ll be back, as right now are going through unprecedented times and always, even though it’s an election year and we’re talking challenges. Te last thing, again, that most of them are about the budget…? Will the House be back at the begin- expecting or wanting to see is a delay of knowing where ning of February for a Speech from the Trone and con- the government is going, what the plan is. We’re going tinuation of proper discussion of legislation in the House? to ask questions later on, on what the actual plan is, because we haven’t really seen one. Hon. S. Robinson: I’m going to ask for a fve-minute But I’ll throw a carrot to the minister. She really wants to recess. My technology has run out of juice. be standing here and saying she acknowledges that there are stresses and pressures for people, while we’re sitting Te Chair: Tank you, Minister. We will be taking a here debating delaying the government putting forward a fve-minute recess so we can get the juice back up. budget. We only have one bill right now in the House that we’re debating. Tis is it. Te committee recessed from 4:23 p.m. to 4:33 p.m. Tere’s a private member’s bill right now for the food and beverage delivery fees cap that was presented by the [N. Letnick in the chair.] opposition. I think it could be another example of us working together, another example of taking politics out Hon. S. Robinson: I want to extend some gratitude to of this place and doing what’s right to help people. Tis is the House for helping recognize that we’re having some being called for extensively by service groups around the technological challenges, and of course, the backups aren’t industry, around the province. working either. We’re just trying to balance out, making So the minister can help us out. I’m more than willing sure the technology is working. So please bear with us. to quickly run through the rest of this bill if she fnds that I want to get to the member’s question, but I can’t she could fnd a way to bring that bill forward before the remember it because I was running around trying to fnd House rises this week. my backups that don’t work. If the member would be so kind as to repeat the question, that would be great. Hon. S. Robinson: I was listening carefully to the words that the member was using, and I think it’s important to M. Bernier: It’s been a while. I almost forgot what my get on the record that this is about taking the time to con- question was. struct a COVID budget. We have been working through Actually, what we had discussed quickly was that we supplementary estimates to deliver programs and services know that, through the estimates process, it’s going to be to help people through this. But the last budget that was extended. My question was: does that mean all of this presented to this House was in February, before we really government and all of this House will be extended? Or knew what was going to play out. We know so much more will we still be expected — and will the minister confrm now, and we see the signifcant impacts. I just want to remind the member that this isn’t about Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 253 delaying anything. It’s about taking the time needed to I am of our public service and the work that they did, turn- build a budget, a COVID budget, that responds to the ing on a dime back in March, developing programs, get- needs of British Columbians. Tat’s what we’re debating ting them out the door. I know that the member oppos- here. It’s absolutely COVID related, given the impacts that ite knows this because he has been on this side. It can take COVID has had on so many people’s lives, on our health a long time to get a program developed and out the door care system, on our seniors care system, on our schools, on because you want to make sure that all of the pieces are businesses. It just goes on and on and on. perfectly placed. Being responsive, it’s incumbent on all of us to gather We felt, and certainly the public service felt, that we that information and understand the impacts so that we didn’t have the luxury of time around the COVID crisis, can make sure that the resources are there for people and that we needed to move quickly. We’ve done that. Te fed- businesses and communities that need them. So this is eral government has done that. Governments all around really about taking the time to get it right. the world have been doing that. It can’t be said enough how the public service has delivered for British Columbi- M. Bernier: Tat wasn’t, obviously, an answer to the ans in such a signifcant way. point that I brought forward of maybe bringing other Tey’re paying a price for that. Tey’re tired. Tey’re legislation that’ll help people. But I know the member exhausted because they have been working right for Surrey–White Rock has been hearing loud and clear through. And we have been back in this House right that that specifc private member’s bill could do something afer the…. I’ll say the crisis struck in March when almost today to help a sector out there. things sort of changed dramatically for all of us, and we I don’t want to debate the whole terminology around came back again in the summer to move more programs delay or whatever, but the minister is asking for more time. out the door, to help businesses with the recovery pro- I mean, the actual wording in the explanatory notes in the gram, to make sure that we had the pieces in place to bill is saying that the minister is asking to extend the dead- take care of British Columbians. line. I guess we could say extend the deadline, delay. Here we are back again doing more of the same with [4:40 p.m.] the recovery beneft. It really is the work of the public ser- To me, that’s pretty close to the same kind of termino- vice to push that out and to make those programs work logy being used, not that we have to agree to disagree. I for British Columbians. So here we are, saying: “Okay, and recognize that the minister is asking for more time to do we have to get in to do budget.” Frankly, they’re exhausted. the job that she says is needed. I will also acknowledge that Time that would have been spent building the budget has the last time this House has seen a budget, as the minister been going into program delivery as a response to COVID. said, was February. [4:45 p.m.] Te minister has continually said throughout the course Really, what we’re saying is that the public service needs of the debate, over the last few hours, anyway, that it’s to work with us, as government. Government needs to about getting it right. It’s about listening to the people. work with the public service to build the budget. Tey are Now, we also found out through the course of the discus- integral to putting that together, to working with govern- sion earlier today that that excluded discussions with First ment to do that. So it’s in collaboration with the public ser- Nations in the province of British Columbia before any vice that we’ve brought forward this bill saying that more decision was made to put this legislation forward. time is needed in order to do it justice. Can the minister, then, maybe let me know what groups she did meet with? Obviously, before this announcement M. Bernier: Nobody’s arguing the fact that we have a was made that she needed more time…. She said that she’s crisis in front of us, and the great work and the hard work listening to people. What groups has she met with that and the long hours, I’m sure, that the public servants in the have asked for this delay as well, which means that the gov- ministry — this ministry, specifcally, and I’m sure almost ernment needs more time? all of them — are going through right now. I do fnd it interesting, though, that the minister, and Hon. S. Robinson: If I heard the member correctly, the ministry, I guess, through the arm of the minister, had and I want to apologize if I didn’t because I was getting time to bring this bill forward, including such things as the some feedback in the technology…. Te technology is Home Owner Grant Act and changing…. We’re going to great until it isn’t, so I apologize if I didn’t quite catch the get to that, I guess, in a little while, in section 4, clause 4. member’s question. It was around who is calling for this Again, those are some of the most important things for- needed time. ward that everybody was calling for — to deal with how we Again, talking with staf around getting to work to build apply for a homeowner’s grant and bring more work into the budget, it became really clear from staf, from the pub- government. I digress, I think, on that. But we’ll get to that lic service, that have…. Again, I want to remind everybody in a minute. — and I know that the members know that, but I think it’s Well, I’ll put an easy question forward, frst of all. Before important and it can’t be said enough — about how proud 254 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 the decision was made to have this delay, did the minister confrm that this delay that she is asking for, for imple- consult with the UBCM and local government? menting a budget in the House, will not in any way impact any other groups or agencies that rely on government Hon. S. Robinson: As I said before, there were no funding? I know the minister said that funding will con- external consultations. Te member can go through as tinue, but there are still reporting requirements, such as many groups as he wants, and it will be the same answer. school districts, that have to also implement and put together their own budget. M. Bernier: I appreciate that from the minister. She Tey will now be delayed before they know what they did say that they did not consult with anybody. Tey will be getting, because they can’t build a budget based on have made this decision up internally, that they expect what they thought they were getting, unless the minister more time. wants them to put budgets together on what they hope to Was there any analysis done, then, by the minister and get — which, of course, we know is not what we expect. Is the ministry and government: by extending and asking for the minister willing to say that nobody will be negatively an additional 30 days, over top of the 30 they already had, afected by her delay of implementing a budget? what impacts might that have to other agencies that rely on not only government funding but report to government in Hon. S. Robinson: Te member asked the question a timely manner, which they’re legislated to do? about reporting requirements for school boards. Tey report June to June. Other entities will have diferent year- Hon. S. Robinson: Tere are two components. We end dates. So everybody is in a slightly diferent boat, given talked already about the funding, and we are going to when their requirements are. Tat’s why we’re bringing with funding, as per this current year, over the extended this budget bill now so that people can plan their timing period of time. around knowing when the budget will happen and know- [4:50 p.m.] ing how to make any adjustments that they need to make. In terms of reporting — I think that that’s what the I want to be really clear. Everybody is going to continue member is talking about — it doesn’t create any problems to be funded, in the way that they have been funded, as we for those that are obligated to report out. It’s standard. take the time to build out a COVID budget. Tat’s going Nothing changes there. to be absolutely critical for Budget ’21. Making sure that we have considered all of the challenges that COVID has M. Bernier: Te minister says nothing changes. When brought forward to all of us and to all of these entities is do school districts have to submit a balanced budget to the absolutely critical. government for approval and scrutiny? We’ll certainly make sure that those that do have report- ing requirements, that do develop budgets based on our Hon. S. Robinson: I was just checking with staf. Tis budget, are familiar and are knowledgable about the fact extended time won’t impact the school board reporting that more time is needed to build the fscal plan, the fscal requirements. framework, and Budget ’21. [5:00 p.m.] M. Bernier: Tat’s good to hear. My question, though, We’re in a year of adapting, if I had to give a year of was: when do they need to report by? adapting, to signifcant challenges. I know that people are [4:55 p.m.] up for it because they’ve continued to demonstrate that throughout 2020. Hon. S. Robinson: June 30 is the date that a balanced budget needs to be provided that is approved by the M. Bernier: I’m just trying to really understand the pro- school board. cess that government is thinking, how this is going to look on the ground. When this bill passes…. I assume, again, M. Bernier: I asked the minister earlier if she would it will. Even though nobody from government spoke to it, confrm that no groups, agencies, would be afected by this I’m assuming they’re supporting it. It states that the min- delay. I’m just curious. I never got a straight answer from ister must have a budget presented on or before April 30. her. Is she willing, then…? Is she going to go right to April 30 and deliver it then? Is When you look at groups like school districts who she thinking she might come earlier? When is the budget can’t put their budget together without knowing what going to be presented? they’re getting…. Te minister just fnished saying that they won’t be delayed. Maybe I should take away my Hon. S. Robinson: Te budget extension that’s before excitement from her earlier answer, when I said I’m glad the House looks at April 30 as sort of, I guess, a drop-dead to hear that, because maybe I’m not glad to hear that date, the very last date that the bill can be introduced into they won’t be delayed. the House. I’m working with staf right now to identify Is the minister willing to stand in the House, again, and exactly how much time is needed within that time frame. Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 255

I’ll be sure to let the member know as soon as we have the way, is the act we’re discussing right now that we need fnalized the date. to go through. Back to my earlier question. Will the minister at least M. Bernier: Let’s work not necessarily backwards, but acknowledge that these delays might have impacts on let’s put together how the process typically works right timelines that other groups have to follow? now. We get called in at the beginning of February. Te Speech from the Trone. Shortly later, a week or two later, Hon. S. Robinson: Listening to the member’s query we have a budget speech. Tat’s the frst time people have suggests to me that he seems to perhaps have forgotten their eyes on a document that knows what the govern- July 2013 — I believe that was the year — when we did ment’s plans are, what the funding will be. estimates debates through the month of July. It took us a Tere are a lot of agencies and a lot of groups, a lot of month to get through all of the estimates because it hadn’t boards, people who rely on government funding, who are been done in that spring election. Tere were three Houses waiting to see that document. In every other year, it’s been running, if I recall. One of them was very hot — it was February. Again, to recap, the government asked a few upstairs — because it was July. Tere is tremendous adapt- months back for a 30-day extension due to COVID. We are ability in this Legislature, in this House. here today debating only this bill for another 30-day exten- I do think it is important to have full debate, estimates sion because of the uncertainties of COVID. I don’t have debate, and I will leave it to the House Leaders to make the to rehash this. We went through it earlier today. determination about how to be efcient, how to be efect- Again, typically we’d be here in February. We would ive and how to deliver a budget that makes a diference then start scrutinizing the budget that’s in front of us. to people. At the end of the day, what we’re talking about We’d go through an estimates process ministry by min- is taking a few weeks of extra time to build a budget that istry. Again, it’s the frst chance that a lot of people…. In works for people now and works for people in the future. some cases, I’m thinking, it’s the frst time the ministers in We are in a…. We keep saying “extraordinary.” We keep diferent ministries have seen what allotment, what their saying “unprecedented.”I’m running out of words, because budget, is going to be proposed. I say “proposed” because it really is. It really is. People deserve to have a govern- it has not been given the scrutiny of this House and royal ment, all of us, working diligently to make sure that we assent. Typically, that takes a couple of months. Tat takes are directing resources and making sure that we are taking us to, usually, the third or fourth week in May before care of the people that depend on us to do that. we’re in this House, royal assent, afer the estimates on the Right now what we have before this House is the oppor- budget. Tat truly is the frst time people can say: “Now tunity to say: “Let’s get it right. Let’s take the time.” Let’s I know what I’m really getting because it has now been take the advice of the public service that is informing us passed in the House.” that they need more time. Tey’ve been run of their feet Now, if we use that same similar timeline…. Te min- delivering services through the time that normally they ister said earlier on today that obviously we’ll wait to see would be spending putting together some of the budget what the House Leaders decide, but we want to have the documents. Tey need more time to get it right, and it’s opportunity for this House to do a similar process and incumbent on all of us to help facilitate that, I believe, and similar scrutiny ministry by ministry. make sure that it does get through the House, that it does [5:05 p.m.] get the scrutiny it deserves. I have confdence in our House If we used a similar timeline, we would not be getting Leaders to help to us do that in a timely manner. royal assent now till July, possibly even August, depending on what kind of budget is in front of us. We have now M. Bernier: Not to debate history with the minister…. passed the timelines where so many agencies have already Of course this House gets called back under extraordinary had to submit their budget to government. times. We’re in one right now, debating, which we’re going Te minister says they are going to continue to get the to get to later on, the government asking for more money. same amount of money. Is she actually telling us now that We recognize that typically doesn’t happen, but under this there’s not going to be a change to the budget? I’d like to government, it has, and we’ll debate and talk about the hear the minister say, then, if that’s the case. How are a lot reasons for that a little later. of these groups supposed to submit a budget to this gov- [5:10 p.m.] ernment when they don’t know what they’re going to be In 2013, if memory serves, there was actually a budget getting from government? presented in February, and there was an election, and then Now, I know the minister can probably stand up in this there was a change to come back afer the election to House and say they have a majority government, and don’t modify that budget. People actually knew what they were worry, whatever they present on April 30 is what you’ll be getting prior to an election, and then we came in and getting. Tat’s still not fair to this House. It’s not fair to the debated and changed that budget aferwards. people and the accountability and transparency, which, by Regardless of that…. Te minister can correct me if I’m wrong, and I might be, but the point is that people are 256 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 going to be having to wait, and that’s what the minister she saying, then, that everybody next year can start putting says is fne. their budgets together? Nobody is getting extra money? Tere are still the statutory obligations of groups that have to respond to government. Tere’s legislation for oth- Hon. S. Robinson: I want to point out that the member er groups of when they have timelines. Is the minister is confating diferent things. In local government, cer- acknowledging, then, that for local governments, school tainly when I was on council, we didn’t wait for the Febru- districts and others that are covered under legislation for ary budget to plan our budget for the city. requirements of reporting, the door is now open to change [5:30 p.m.] the legislation for them, as well, as the government sees ft We passed our budget every year when I was on city to do for themselves? council — and I believe that they still do the practice — in December. It wasn’t contingent on a provincial budget. Hon. S. Robinson: At this time, we don’t believe that To suggest somehow that one naturally leads into the other there is any impact. We’ll certainly…. We’ve done a scan to isn’t accurate, in fact. identify if there are any, and at this point, we don’t believe Local governments have their own responsibilities to that there are any impacts to statutory reporting, should budget appropriately and do so quite well. Tey do. In this bill pass and we have the extension needed to deliver a Coquitlam, they did it well, as well, and didn’t time it robust and meaningful budget. around the provincial budget. So I think that’s not an accurate refection of what an M. Bernier: Te minister probably doesn’t need to ask impact that he is suggesting. her staf this one. When is the statutory requirement for local governments to report to government? [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] [5:15 p.m. - 5:25 p.m.] What we are saying, as well, is that in the time until Hon. S. Robinson: Tey wanted to double-check we do table a budget, one that is well-thought-out, that some of the legislation. I was right. May 15 is when it considers COVID impacts, that makes sure that we take has to be adopted. What’s interesting, though — and I the time necessary to build an appropriate budget for the know that the member has signifcant experience in loc- time…. What we’re saying to groups is that we will oper- al government — in Coquitlam we didn’t wait. We would ate for that 13th month as if it was a 13-month year, so adopt our budget, typically in December, because it felt they will not be impacted by the extra time that we take important to have the knowledge of our fscal frame- to build a budget. We will continue to do the work that’s work earlier rather than waiting. So it’s the latest that necessary to continue to take care of people, to continue you could do a budget, but you can certainly do one to take care of businesses, to continue to take care of our earlier. In the city of Coquitlam, they always chose to do communities so they can come through this pandemic it and adopt a budget in December. as best as possible.

M. Bernier: I don’t mean this as disrespect to the minis- M. Bernier: I do fnd it somewhat ironic, though, that ter. I thought that was a sofball I threw her, as the former the minister is talking about the requirements of all these Minister of Municipal Afairs, of the timelines required. other groups putting together their budgets, yet they’re not Look, I mean, I’m not trying to take the minister down a willing to follow the same process for themselves of sub- rabbit hole here. I’m not trying to highlight anything other mitting and doing the work in a timely fashion. than the government putting legislation forward to delay Te minister must know and have done the work of their budget to be in front of the public can, may and prob- what she sees in the projections, going forward. I know ably will have efects on other agencies. she’s asking for a delay. Again, I want to stress that this is Local governments have to put theirs together so they not about the staf and staf work. Tis is politics. I think know what their tax rates are going to be. We’ve got lots this is politics — 100 percent. Will the minister maybe…? of former local government ofcials and mayors here, and Actually before I get to that…. I think I’ll bring that up in they understand that process where they need to know. the next section. Te minister says the money is going to continue. Tat’s I just want to acknowledge that what government is great. School districts aren’t going to ofcially know until doing here does have impacts, could have impacts. For the close to the deadline for reporting, but they also have to minister to say, “Don’t worry. Put your budgets together give notice to union if there’s going to be layofs due to cuts and keep going….” in April and May — again, before they even know what I want to just remind this House of the employer health they’re ofcially going to be getting. tax. Governments were in the middle of putting their Te minister has said numerous times today not to budgets together and deciding how they would or would worry; the money they’re getting is going to continue so not increase property taxes as one of their only sources of they can work forward for putting their budget process. Is revenue, and they get smacked with an employer health Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 257 tax that they now have to budget for, that they didn’t know in people’s lives, that it’s not a signifcant piece of legisla- about, because this government brought that forward. So tion. what government does and when they do it does actually I think the budget is the most important document that have impacts on other groups, agencies and people, spe- government brings forward in order to take care of the cifcally, here in the province. people it serves. Te people need this government to keep I’m just going to wrap up this section. I just want to doing what it has been doing. We need to take the time highlight a few things. Te minister has said throughout and make sure that we have the supports from a public ser- the course of this day that this is not going to have impacts vice that is absolutely exhausted, that we can do right by — she’ll have an opportunity to correct me if I’m wrong on the people of this province. It is for that reason that we are any statement I make here — on other groups or agencies. saying there is not enough time to get it right. Tat’s why But at the same time, today we found out that she actu- this legislation is before the House. ally hasn’t talked, spoken with, consulted with any of those same people and same groups that she says are not going Te Chair: Te member for Peace River South. to be impacted. So how does she know? We had a long discussion earlier of the fact that this gov- M. Bernier: Tanks, Chair, for indulging me, because I ernment…. One of their very frst chances to be in this was not going to get back up until I heard that. House and to follow the legislation that they put forward I just want also to be on the record that the minister around UNDRIP, and they’re not following that. Te very just said the most important thing is presenting a budget frst chance afer an election to sit in this House and dis- to this House. Meanwhile, we’re debating a bill for her cuss legislation that is actually go to help people who are to do the exact opposite — for her to delay bringing in dire need of that help right now in the province, and we a budget to this House. People expect that budget. Te have a bill to delay the transparency and accountability of minister just acknowledged it’s probably one of the most this government. important things this House could do. Yet we’re debating [5:35 p.m.] delaying, doing exactly the opposite. Te minister can’t I think it’s important for this House, as an opposition, have it both ways. to bring these questions forward, to put this scrutiny on I will acknowledge and agree with her, though, that the government, to really understand where government’s pri- budget is the most important thing because it sets the orities are. People that are going to be watching this are framework for this House and for the province, which is going to really be bafed in so many ways that this is what’s why I’m asking the questions about delaying it. So I will in front of us, and this why we called to Victoria in the acknowledge and agree with the minister. It is import- middle of what was discussed today as a second wave, a ant. Tat’s why we’re asking these questions. Tat’s why we pandemic. It’s troublesome. don’t think we need to delay the important work and the I’m going to end this section with just one question, expectations that the people of the province have to see I guess, to wrap up my comments. Tis entire House, I what the goals, plans and visions are and how it’s going to know, is excited that there is now a vaccine that’s coming help the people of B.C. Tat, to me, is why we’re having this that’s in front of us, that there is a shred of hope because of debate. the vaccine. Is this budget being delayed to the point where a vaccine now is going to be more readily available, coin- Te Chair: Tank you, Members. cidently, around the end of April, from what this govern- Did the minister want to respond? ment has been talking about? I’m giving an easy one for the minister to wrap up this section, I think, by acknow- Hon. S. Robinson: We’re going to keep this volley ledging and by saying: is there a coincidence between the going, hon. Chair, mostly because I do think where we COVID vaccine — not the COVID pandemic but the vac- agree is on the importance of the budget. Tat is where we cine itself…? Are they waiting until the vaccine is more agree, absolutely. readily available before they put a budget forward? Tat’s why it’s important to take the time to get it right and to make sure that we have a public service that can Hon. S. Robinson: No, they are not related at all. Just help us deliver a budget that works for people. It’s not like every member in this House, I heard the news with about what he calls a “delay.” It is about taking the time, signifcant relief — was it last week, two weeks ago? — that and that’s probably where we disagree. it was coming. Tis is not at all related to that. [5:40 p.m.] I think I just need to put on the record that the member seems to think that doing a robust, meaningful budget, Te Chair: Seeing no further questions on clause 1, we taking the necessary time to put together one that works are going to have a vote taking place. for people, that works for businesses and that works for Shall clause 1 pass? communities is not important work to make a diference Te vote does not carry. Division has been called. Tere will be a deferred divi- 258 British Columbia Debates Tuesday, December 15, 2020 sion tonight pursuant to a sessional order adopted Decem- given the status of what was being updated. It was an addi- ber 7, 2020. Te division will be deferred until six o’clock. tional transparency report to let British Columbians know the status of the fscal activities of government, given the On clause 2. extraordinary times and the extraordinary circumstances.

Te Chair: We’re going to be moving on to the second M. Bernier: Can the minister spend a few minutes and clause, for those following along at home. Big surprise, on explain to this House, then, the requirements of section 2 to clause 2. Any questions on clause 2? — clause 2, I guess we’re going to refer to it? Under the notes, it states that this is to extend the period M. Bernier: Surprise. Te Chair makes it sound like for the exception for quarterly reports being required, and we’re playing a home game here, but this is actually quite I’m just curious if the minister can explain the circum- important work we’re doing here. stances and why they brought this part forward. I want to read something here from the actual Budget [5:50 p.m.] Transparency and Accountability Act, the actual act that we’re debating right now, which has a lot of green lines Hon. S. Robinson: In a non-election year, when you in it. For those who don’t know, green lines mean those present the budget in February, with it comes a third were changes that were recently made this year, already, quarterly report. It’s part and parcel of the work that goes to the act. So there are a lot of changes that have already into preparing a budget. Te third quarterly is part of it. taken place when we had this act in front of us here a few In this instance, we recognize that, as part of the budget months ago. process, we want the third quarterly to continue to be Tis section here that we’re talking about now is, again, attached to it. So this is part of making sure that we can about transparency. It’s about accountability. It’s about continue to do the quarterly with the budget, recognizing reporting. It’s about the duty of government and the min- that it’s the same public service that are continuing to ister, specifcally, on her role and the expectations within deliver programs and services, continuing to manage the that role. COVID impacts, continuing to build out the budget, con- Again, under the act, and talking about quarterly tinuing to do the quarterly reports. Tis is about keeping it reports frst. In section 10: “(1) Quarterly reports must all together and making sure that we can, in fact, deliver a be prepared in accordance with this section and with budget in a timely way. the accounting policies established by Treasury Board.” I will draw the member’s attention to subsection (6), We discussed Treasury Board earlier, but I won’t get into which recognizes that this can create a gap between that now. reporting out and the built-in requirement to make a pub- “(2) Each quarterly report must include the following: lic report in the intervening months. (a) for the government reporting entity, statements of (i) I also note the hour, and I note that we will be called the revenues and expenses, and the resulting surplus or back into the chamber for a vote. I do need a break and defcit, for the period from April 1 in the fscal year to want to make sure that I can take care of that. So with which the report applies to the end of the quarter to which everyone’s indulgence…. the report applies,” and also to report “(ii) the debt at the end of the quarter to which the report applies.” Te Chair: We’ll take a recess until six o’clock. Tank Can the minister tell me when the last time her govern- you, everybody. ment submitted a quarterly report? Te committee recessed from 5:52 p.m. to 5:59 p.m. Hon. S. Robinson: September 10 was the last quarterly report, but I also want on record that there was also an [S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] update in July, recognizing the signifcant impacts of COVID. So there was the budget, and then July, and then Te Chair: Members, we will proceed to the deferred September 10. division process on the question of whether clause 1 of [5:45 p.m.] Bill 3, Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2020, shall pass. I would like to remind members participating remotely that M. Bernier: Can the minister then just confrm: were they must now enable their video. these, based on what I just read, full quarterly reports that Pursuant to the sessional order regulating hybrid pro- were presented under the act, and did they meet all of the ceedings of the House adopted on December 7, 2020, the requirements under the act? House will stand recessed until 6:10 p.m., when we will take the vote. Tank you, Members. Hon. S. Robinson: Te September 10 quarterly report did meet all the requirements of the act. Te July report Te committee recessed from 6 p.m. to 6:10 p.m. did, but it was not considered a proper quarterly report, Tuesday, December 15, 2020 British Columbia Debates 259

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.] Cadieux Clovechok Davies de Jong Doerkson Furstenau Te Chair: Members, we will now proceed with the Halford Kirkpatrick Kyllo deferred division. Te question is whether clause 1 of Bill Lee Letnick Merrifeld 3, Finance Statutes Amendment Act, 2020, shall pass. Milobar Morris Oakes [6:15 p.m. - 6:20 p.m.] Olsen Paton Ross Rustad Shypitka Stewart Clause 1 approved on the following division: Stone Sturdy Tegart Wat Wilkinson YEAS — 53

Alexis Anderson Babchuk Hon. S. Robinson: I move that the committee rise, Bailey Bains Beare report progress and ask leave to sit again. Begg Brar Chant Chen Chow Conroy Motion approved. Coulter Cullen Dean D’Eith Dix Donnelly Te committee rose at 6:23 p.m. Dykeman Farnworth Fleming Glumac Greene Heyman Te House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Horgan Kahlon Kang Leonard Lore Ma Te Committee of the Whole, having reported Malcolmson Mark Mercier progress, was granted leave to sit again. Osborne Paddon Popham Ralston Rankin Rice Hon. M. Farnworth moved adjournment of the House. Robinson Routledge Routley Russell Sandhu Sharma Motion approved. Simons Sims A. Singh R. Singh Starchuk Walker Mr. Speaker: Tis House stands adjourned until 1:30 Whiteside Yao p.m. tomorrow. NAYS — 29 Te House adjourned at 6:24 p.m. Banman Bernier Bond

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