The Daily Ubyssey Vol. XXX VANCOUVER, B.C., WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 22, 1947 No- 17 AMS Plans Fall Muskrat Model Greek Song Fest, Cheers Ball In Armory The Fall Ball will be staged in the Armory this year instead Greet Montreal Visitor of the Commodore as planned by USC if a decision reached by Student Council Monday night is implemented. *- • — " * A plea of "tender feet" raised by ^ • !• Taddy Knapp, council secretary, fail NFCUS President Addresses ed to influence council when they Livingstone vetoed the Undergraduate Societies Students From Caf Table Socialists Committee ruling. Jerry Macdonald claimed that the Western hospitality overflowed Tuesday for Canada's Num­ Berates Armory could be decorated and the ber One student, a quiet French-Canadian from Montreal. Face Grant floor polished at a very low cost A chorus of exhuberant students, 2000 strong, greeted and that it was the psychological N touring Maurice Sauve, president of the National Federation Caf dingers effect of, having a cabaret type of dance on the campus that intimidat­ of Canadian University Students, with a rousing "Hail UBC" The students who stayed away in Suspension ed Council members. and "Allouette" when he happened on singing "Greeks" in the droves from the NFCUS meeting Members of UBC's Socialist Taddy Knapp retorted, "My feet campus cafeteria. Tuesday were subjected to a tirade group may face suspension of are not psychological." At this ® Immediately after a poorly attend­ from AMS President Grant Living­ their AMS budget unless they point Nora Clarke questioned her, ed meeting in the auditorium at stone. "Were your feet tired after Frosh "ollow Student Council ruling which the student from the Univer­ "I am very disappointed that the Orientation?" Taddy countered with Patrolmen Warn sity of Montreal had outlined) the crowd downstairs in the caf is not that they must change their a quick, "You bet they were." name from the present Social­ program of the NFCUS, a delegation here in the auditorium," declared SOMETHING NEW ist Forum. Student Drivers led by Grant Livingstone, president Livingstone over a chorus of frater­ The question of holding the Fall of the AMS took Sauve on a tour nity songs, arising from below. *1t Ball in the Armory instead of at the Harassed traffic patrolmen ask stu­ Councillors turned down a request of the Cafeteria. shows a great lack of spirit. How­ from the organization Monday night Commodore as in the past, was dents to observe the following warn­ ever," he added, turning to Maurice brought up when Rosemary Hodgins ings during the street car strike. CELEBRATION which asked that "political club" pol­ Sauve, NFCUS president, "you will announced that the Undergraduate The sounds of the fraternities cele­ icy be waived to permit the use of 1. Use the Chancellor Boulevard find that the students who take an Societies Committee was .'unwilling brating the end of rushing with ren­ the present name. approach as much as possible to elim­ interest in NFCUS affairs are all to take on the responsibility of trying inate congestion at University Boule­ ditions of their songs had penetrated Council Tuled that the group must here." something new.' —Ubyssey Photo by Micky Jones. vard and the main Mall. the meeting and prompted President call itself either the CCF Club or N.A.M. MacKenzie to remark that the Socialist Club. LSE chairman, Jerry Macdonald, 2. Park your car a little more care­ replied, "If USC doesnt want to do it, LOVELY LADY from UBC's "the place downstairs is by far the Tlie Socialist organization told coun­ fashion show is blonde Tina fully so as to permit as many cars cillors any change of name would LSE will and will turn in a profit of as possible to use the lots. oddest place on the campus. I think German Students "narrow the scope of speakers" $1,000 more than the amount received Howard, shown here in the 3. Lock your motorcycle or bicycle that Maurice should see it." brought to the campus. if the dance were to be held at the sleek muskrat with which she as patrolmen will not be responsible The sight of a lone man standing Commodore." will be graced at today's fash­ for the loss of any hike that is un­ atop one of the tables brought silence Ask Cooperation Technically, the change was to have EXPENSIVE EVENING ion parade in Brock Hall. locked. to the cafeteria where only seconds Students of Friedrich-Schiller Uni­ been made by Monday, and a pre­ "The chief reason for having the vious order from the Council leaves 4. Do not let students off too close before 2,000 people had been singing versity, Jena, Germany (Russian zone) dance in the Armory," LSE chair­ all "political club" budgets on the to the flrehydrant at the corner of and yelling at the tops of their voices. are making an effort to re-establish man claimed, "is so that we can ac­ table until the order is carried out. Brock road and the main Mall. When Sauve began to address the their International Studenrat (Coun­ commodate those ex-servicemen and Missing Buses group in his native French, the whole Councillors approved a change of their wives who cannot afford an cil of Students). group spontaneously broke into a name from the Student Liberal For­ expensive evening at the Commo­ In a dispatch to the Daily Ubyssey, stirring rendition of "Alouette", um to the Student Liberal Club, an dore. Mystify Pubster Helmuth Segeth, Studenrat officer in which the Easterner led. alteration which follows Council'3 At a previous meeting Student charge of relations with the British Another of the small mysteries that "political" policy laid down several Council passed a motion stating that SAME SPEECH Commonwealth of Nations said he weeks ago. campus social functions should be defy solution came to light recently After the roar of approval, Sauve hoped that UBC students would give held as far as possible either in when a reporter for The Daily Uby­ who is here on a national speaking their utmost co-operation. Brock Hall or in the Armories. The ssey interviewed pickets at the 10th tour, delivered the same speech which Segeth'states that his group would Commodore would be contrary to Ave. and Trimble garage of the he had previously given upstairs. be very interested, in receiving «*- AUS To Sponsor strikebound B.C. Electric. Council policy." "Chief aim of the NFCUS is to torial opinions and correspondence When queried as to the reason for Meanwhile, Ralph Huene, chair­ assist students to be of value to from Canadian University students. their vigil the pickets explained that man of the Fall Ball Cemmittee their community" the speaker de­ He feels that this would give them Whitman Dance of USC, is protesting the council it was merely a token gesture be­ clared, an insight into the life and interests reversal of the committee plan, cause buses normally used to trans­ Strike or no strike the Arts Under­ Fostering exchanges with American of students in this country. declaring that "it is unfair for port UBC students were, for the graduate Society will sponsor a dance students, publishing a quarterly All correspondence should be dir­ council to override the decisions of to honor the visiting Whitman Col­ duration of the strike, locked up at ected to: an established committee without magazine for Canadian students, and lege gridders in The Brock on Satur­ the company's Little Mountain gar­ Helmuth, Segeth, first having consulted that commit­ raising a $100,000 scholarship fund day night. age. tee." are other activities of the group, Jena, Ernst-Abbe-Str. 8, But further investigation by the Surprise entertainment will be pre­ "Although the Armory could be he stated. Russian-zone of Germany. reporter revealed that there were sented by the Jokers Club under the made satisfactory for such an oc­ Sauve pointed to the successful I am strong in my belief that this buses in the Trimble building. A master of ceremonies Dick Ellis. casion, there are certain aspects which campaigns conducted by NFCUS to is another step for mutual understand­ company official in attendance re­ are not in keeping with the prestige secure reduced railfares which he ing. It is the wish of the students of Frank Nightingale's Varsity Or­ fused to comment. of this important University affair said took seven years to complete. eastern Germany to establish and chestra will be on hand to provid So did the pickets. as it has been held in past years.'' At present the organization is maintain hearty and friendly rela­ the music for what promises to be he declared. working to eliminate the unemploy­ tions with your western universities. one of the best Saturday night hops MONETARY CONSIDERATION ment insurance deductions from stu­ That is why I hope to be just a little of the year. QUICKIE "If council is intent only on the —Courtesy Daily novmce. dents' summer pay checks. bit successful," he declared. Dancing will be from 9 till 12 and monetary consideration then of course Queen of Western Canadian College LT. COL. CECIL MERRITT, V.C, tickets are on sale at the AMS office, their decision could be reversed only campuses, UBC coed Marlon Albert M.P., Dieppe hero and Progressive- the Quad and the Cafe. Admission by a mass protest by the student eloped to Seattle Monday. Conservative member of parliament will be $1 a couple. body," he added. She was married to Gilbert Ed­ for Vancouver-Durrard, will address RADSOC PRESIDENT FLIES wards, by Rabbi Levine of the Temple an open meeting at 12:30 today in DcHirsch. Mr. Edwards is a UBC Arts 106, under the auspices of the graduate and is affiliated with the Progressive-Conservative Club. Lt. Joker Chief Challenges Psi Upsilon fraternity. Col. Merritt will speak on "The Dol­ TO PRAIRIE CONFERENCE Marion is the daughter of Mr. and lar Crisis". Mrs. S. Albert of this city. Ernest Perrault, president of the University Radio Society will attend the second annual conference of the Western Livingstone To Combat Universities Radio Federation to be held in Saskatoon this Jokers President Dick Ellis yesterday afternoon challenged Council Enforces weekend. Grant Livingstone, president of Student Council "to personal U of M Plays - Organized last year the federation, ity plays and events of general in­ battle on the field of valor" at a pepmeet to be held by the Travel Rulings known as the "WURF' brought to­ terest. Jokers, Friday noon in the gymnasium. gether the student radio groups of A faculty crack-down on student <_> In a statement to The Ubyssey, HostTo NFCUS the four western provinces. This system would be further am­ travelling for games, and conferences plified by a pooling of ideas and Ellis claimed that Livingstone is At that time, according to Perrault, Kingston, Oct. 15—(CUP)—Univer­ was revealed at Student Council educational radio programs. 'Writers' Crowd afraid to see me". The Joker's presi­ sity of Manitoba will play host to meeting Monday night. it was too late to initiate any of the planned federation functions or ser­ dent said, "Several times I have gone this year's meeting of the National The Faculty Committee on Student There is planned also an inter- to the AMS office only to be informed vices. university news service in addition Federation of Canadian University Affairs outlined their requirements that Mr. Livingstone is too busy." to a WURF Bulletin, the official Jabez Night Class Students in Winnipeg, December 28, in a letter received by the Literary "However,' he said, "I am prepared The Jokers, feeling they have been organ of the Federation. 29, and 30. and Scientific Executive yesterday. to attack a meaty agenda at this Popularity of Eric Nicol, instructor done a grave injustice in the loss The announcement was made re­ They advised the LSE that all und­ conference." RADIO DRAMA for the Department of University of their club house, intend to cham­ cently during an executive commit­ ergraduate organizations proposing to pion their cause to the end. "I feel that without facilities now To Perrault, himself an accomplish­ Extension's night class "Writing For tee meeting held in Kingston. travel outside of Greater Vancouver, Concluding his statement Ellis chal­ under construction and our present ed radio script writer and a budding You" is apparently not confined to his must first obtain the permission of lenged council members to a basket­ Possibility of the conference being club setup, UBC can play an import­ playwright, discussions on a Radio the Faculty Council's president. In campus admirers. ball game to take place at Friday's covered by the magazine "News ant role in the consolidation of this Drama Festival will be of particular addition, they stated that all women Pepmeet. World" was suggested by the com­ new organization." interest. Mr. Nicol—known today by stu­ students proposing to travel must Grant Livingstone could not be mittee. "News World" is one of dents as 'the late Jabez",—expected report in person to the Dean of Wom­ Embryo plans call for each of the reached for comment at press time. Canada's pictorial publications. At the present time Saskatchewan an enrolment of about 25 persons in en before leaving the campus. is the president of the Federation, four western universities to submit a completely student play over the his course, which was to have been PROCEDURE It will be decided at the conference where the rotating presidency will go network next spring. a discussion group. He discovered 75 In order to fulfill these regulations next. students waiting for him at the first Legislators OK Ubyssey the following procedure is to be Discussion of other individual pro­ class October 14, in the Vancouver followed by all organizations desiring LARGEST ITEM grams such as a roundtable discussion featuring a different university each Normal School. to travel. Largest single item on the agenda A typewritten memorandum of the will be the establishment of a radio week will round out the already To case the tension for Mr. Nicol, Coverage Of Council names of those members of the organ­ network linking the four western crowded agenda. and make it possible for all would-be ization expecting to make the trip universities. According to Perrault, the general creative writers to take part, the De­ Two reporters from the staff of the Daily Ubyssey should be submitted in triplicate to Another aim of the conference is purpose of the conference is: partment has found another instruc­ covered student council meeting Monday night as a new the council at least one week before the organization of an exchange ser­ the scheduled time of departure. One "through the medium of the radio tor who will share instructional and scheme to improve council news coverage got underway. vice of scripts written by university copy of this list will be returned to to cement relations between the four tutorial duties. Official council OK was handed down after a brief students for presentation on each in­ the organization and the remaining western universities to bring the dividual campus. He is Professor Bert Hughe of the discussion in which members pointed out that the reporters copies placed on file with the chair­ role of the university before the pub­ UBC Department of English, in which would be responsible to the Editor-in-Chief of the Publica­ man of the FCSA and the secretary Coupled with this is the proposed lic in a practical and attractive Mr, Nicol is also an instructor. tions Board. of the Faculty Council. plan for the transcription of univers- manner." PAGE 2 THE DAILY UBYSSEY Wednesday, October 22, 19'.

The Daily Ubyssey LETTERS TO THE EDITOR SIGNBOARD Member Canadian University Press Authorized us Second Class Mail,, Post Office Dept., Ottawa. Mail Subscriptions — $2.50 per year Charge ...... Reply Published throughout the university year by the Student Publications Board of the Alma Mater Society of the Editor, Dear Sir: WANTED University of British Columbia , Mr. Hughes, as is his right, takes The Daily Ubyssey, URGENTLY NEEDED by an English • • • us to task for our recent comments Dear Sir: Editorial opinions expressed herein are those of the editorial staff of The Daily Ubyssey and not necessarily upon the editorial content of the 411 student a copy of "Everyman and Last year, during the drive for funds those of the Alma Mater Society nor of the University. Comox -Courtenay "Argus" which Other Interludes" Dent. Please Phone for the Memorial Gymnasium, circu­ • * • paper, incidentally, is published by BAy. 6496 M. lars were distributed to most of the Mr. Ben Hughes. Offices in Brock Hall. Phone: ALma 1624 For display advertising phone KErrisdale 1811 weeklies in B.C. urging support for •»» While we have no quarrel with the WANTED: RIDE for 8:30's, Monday EDITOR-IN-CHIEF - - - - DONALD FERGUSON the drive. Some of the weekly news­ writer of the letter, we do feel im­ through Friday from 35th to 41st on MANAGING EDITOR - - - - LAURIE DYER papers felt the cause worthy enough pelled to remind him to the following GENERAL STAFF: Copy Editor, Ron Haggart; News Editor, Tore Larssen; Features Editor, George Robertson, to warrant an editorial in its support. Dunbar. Please call KErr. 2405 and facts: Photography Director, Bob Cave; Sports Editor, Chick Turner. The Courtenay-Comox Argus was one ask for Howie or Gene. CITY EDITOR THIS ISSUE: VAL SEARS (1) The Alma Mater Society is not such newspaper. (Naturally the edi­ ASSOCIATE EDITORS: LONI FRANCIS, FRANK WALDEN responsible or in any way account­ torial was without benefit of syntax able for the opinions expressed by LOST or studded with its due amount of contributors to the Ubyssey. commas). However, it reached a lot A WRIST-WATCH at Commodore (2) Under those circtimstances, it is of people in that district. Ballroom on Thursday, October 16. rather unfair to suggest that the Alma I would venture to say, however, SEE HERE, MR. CANAVAN Mater Society should be made to Phone DEx. 2316 L. that circulars concerning UBC will suffer by an implied future non- probably not receive such considera­ WILL THE PERSON who found two That university students are free, white supplied by the University Employment Bur­ support of the War Memorial Fund, tion. Naturally, it would be because and twenty-one would appear to be a point eau there may have been a case- The six or other AMS activities. Math 100 textbooks, plus a Math 100, the Courtenay-Comox Argus feared Mr. Pete Canavan overlooked when he point­ students who did the janitorial work several (3) To suggest such retribution is small, 3- ring leather notebook, please to have its lack of syntax and sparci- to suggest that the Alma Mater So­ return it to tbe AMS lost and found. ed the finger of shame at UBC last Thursday evenings secured the jobs entirely on their ty of comas again brought to Mr. ciety shouud censor any form of after finding several students employed at the own. They were acting as individuals . . . not Bewley's attention. I really need these; especially the criticism which may not be liked by Mr. Bewely probably fails to realize notes. strikebound Stock Exchange building. as students. those from whom it seeks support. that weekly newspapers do not main­ This is something the AMS cannot Mr. Canavan, as business agent for the With this in view it is difficult to'under­ tain a staff to polish their prose but Will the person who picked up my do; and should not be asked to do. stand how the university administration or are mainly concerned with distri­ powder blue umbrella from the libra striking Building Service Employees' Union (4) The "Argus" itself, as a news­ buting local news to people who are (AFL), lodged the complaint with Grant Liv­ the AMS can reasonably be held responsible paper, will undoubtedly be the first ry please phone Greta Milne at AI *"« interested in its contents, not its com­ ingstone and with the administration, re­ for the behaviour of students in their off- to object to this form of advertiser- 0691-Y. mas. questing that they do something about it. campus time. control over free (and well-meant) ' XHi'-iiS Peter G. Hughes criticism. LOST OR STOLEN in Gym. . We heartily etgree with Mr. Canavan wallet Please turn it in at AMS onice. We feel that Mr. Canavan's request is an In Or Out? Les Bewley. Papers important. unreasonable one. If four members of the that anyone who deliberately accepts employ­ The Editor, ment where a union is staging a legal (Bill Weasel Talk United Church robbed a bank, the bank Sir: BROWN, SHINEY, calfskin wallet, Dear Sir: officials could scarcely level criticism at the 39) strike is certainly acting unjustly. A recent edition of The Daily Ubys­ belonging to Roy Karjala, on Thurs­ I read with some astonishment the church, could they Mr. Canavan? sey does not make it quite clear day October 16, We deplore the matter, but why the whether the Varsity Outdoor Club letter of Murray D. Bryce, who pro­ If the student strikebreakers had been university, Mr- Canavan? has been evicted from clubroom tests that your are wrong in asserting SILVER PENCIL, four colors. Phone headquarters along with the Jokers that members of the Students So­ Morris at ALma 2058 Y. Club, or whether the Jokers moved cialist Forum "are disavowing the out so that the Outdoor Club could CCF". ONE MAROON and silver Parker '57 By LES BEWLEY move In. Bryce claims (1) that the members Would finder please turn in at AN The Children's Hour What I want to know is this: Is the of the forum do not disavow the CCF; office. Valued as gift. Varsity Outdoor Club indoors or is it (2) that in spite of that they do not WOULD the PERSON who found « outdoors? If it is indoors, why should wish to become a CCF club, pre­ brofn alligator wallet please phone Today, moved by the horrified cries of a patron from a taxpayer. The taxpayer pays it be? I believe in clubs practicing ferring to retain the Student Social­ ALma 0359 R again as message was our readers, we reluctantly abandon our taxes- The Legislature grants an annual sum what their names imply, What pos­ ist title because "that name honestly misinterpreted. pokings into the tender viscera of the weekly to the university. Not in tomatoes. Not in logs. sible objection could the Outdoor and clearly states the political philo­ press, and turn to other and more sordid Not in fish. In money. Club take to being outdoors? sophy in which we are interested"; WOULD Person who took dissecting (4) that admittedly the club has in­ subjects. This is known as jumping out of the All last winter I was perplexed by kit from locker 285, Ap. Sc. 119 return If you want to be romantic about it, paradoxical notices which appeared vited as speakers five prominent CCF frying pan into the fire- to locker by Wednesday October 22. though, you might say that makes the tax­ from time t'o time on blackboards, parliamentarians, and representatives VALUABLE NOTES on Homecoming Because we propose to deal with a par­ informing members of the Varsity from no other parties; but in spite of payer a "patron" of the arts and sciences. Day. Listed under CF 30. Will finder ticularly choice bit of nonsense, we confid­ Outdoor Club that the club would all that they decline to adopt the CCF So he is. He is a patron, also of the city name. please phone KErr. 2115 L. ently await the screams that we are discussing sewage and water systems, the garbage col­ meet at noon that day "in Arts 100." nonsense. Well, of course. It is all stuff, What could be more incongruous Mr. Editor, that is weasel talk, and lection service and Oakalla Jail. than the Varsity Outdoor Club meet­ there is too much similar weasel drivel and nortsense. It wouldn't be discussed talk in campus politics. But not even Mr- Cameron would be ing indoors, unless possibly it was a FELT CRAFT here, if it were not. Varsity Indoor Club meeting regu­ For instance, we have on the cam­ damfool enough to suggest (with equal logic) Specializing in The particular nonsense we have in mind larly in the botanical gardens? pus a Communist (now LLP) club, that any citizen who drank water, had his hard by, and in addition, we have UNIVERSITY-SPORT AND today is the arrant and somewhat fractious If political clubs are being made to CLUB CRESTS ashes removed, or graduated from Oakalla, the Social Problems Club, which has nonsense of one Mr. Colin Cameron, provin­ adopt names appropriate to their 2055 WEST 42nd an admitedly Communist president. cial president of the CCF party, who address­ should be prevented from exercising his activities, why should other organiza­ KErr. 0626 What is this, hide and seek? ed a meeting on the campus last week under rights as a free citizen in leaving forever tions not be made to adopt activities the auspices of the student Socialist Forum. these sources of supply. appropriate to their names? Eric Broderick And not even Mr, Cameron would Canada's LARGEST E.i elusive UNOBJECTIONABLE Ladies' Shoes Store brand, as a "common cheat" the boy who One part of Mr. Cameron's speech, at finally grows up and leaves the mother who least, was unobjectionable. That was his al­ conceived him, gave him birth, suckled, bath­ SIGNBOARD legation that the lumber barons are stripping ed and dressed him. the forest resources of this province for purposes of private profit and material gain. Which leads us to the conclusion that NOTICE what Mr. Cameron is urging upon his listen­ No objection, surely, can be taken to this THE FALL BALL COMMITTEE of statement- Mr. Cameron could say nothing ers is not political morals, but political infant­ ilism. Well, he is qualified. the USC will meet Thursday noon else; for no man in his right mind would in the Student Council Room. plunge out into the great beyond and saw STRANGE PHILOSOPHY TWO DOUBLE ROOMS and break­ down forest giants merely for purposes of This is a strange philosophy. And it fast supplied for four girls who live his health. Or for fun. makes us think, somehow of the fifteen hap­ too far from University to get to Black Calf less Englishmen who wait in vain for their lecture during strike. Mrs. M. C. Mr. Cameron's distaste for lumber bar­ Turvey, 4311 West Ninth Ave. ons should not, however, be taken for a deep fifteen Soviet brides, because the Soviet 895 .')EMiK3!52SE*«&.. Ua loathing of royalty. It is nothing of the sort. super-state decrees that too many valuable WOULD PERSON who worked at You see, Mr. Cameron calls some men barons kopecks have been invested in their fifteen "Two Skiirs" during summer and has cabin for rent up Hollyburn, please only that the rest of us will feel like peasants. womanly bodies, to make their departure Cued for College! economically and politically desirable. phone HBC Ladies' Sports Wear Dept. This enables him to cash in on the ancient and ask for Ingrid Lasteen. Smart looking . . . smart feeling hatred that we peasants hold for the drunken, Politically desirable- Oh, God. Never lecherous old man on the hill who demands, mind the love of man and woman. Forget the CHRISTIAN SCIENCE Organization easy going lows with a strictly unpolitical loyalties of the human heart and invites all interested students to at­ in slurred, wet accents, the right of the first tend the regular weekly meetings' "know my way about the human soul. The question is—have we turnip, the first night and the first-born. Tuesday at 12:30 in the Double Com­ the campus air" got our money's worth out of them? What really interests us, though, is Mr. mittee Room of the Brock, second flour south. Cameron's bland assurance that any man NOT SO who "accepts" a university education and It was not always so, in this world. The CIRCULO LATINO AMERICANO will then leaves the country, is nothing more centuries past knew men who, accepting an present two films "High, Spots of a than—these are Mr. Cameron's words—"a education in their native lands, were common High Country" and "Picturesque Guatemala" in the Auditorium at common cheat." enough to leave their homes and employ 12:30, Thursday, October 23. Well, well, well. their skills elsewhere—to our own great, Nothing could be more indicative of Mr. good fortune. THE ENGINEERS MUSIC CLUB will Cameron's peculiar frame of mind than that hold a meeting in Ap. 100, on Thurs­ We live in the new world, freed from day, October 23, at 12:30 to complete word "accept". ancient tyrannies, because of them. Christo­ constitution, All Engineer Undergrads POUR MILE RUN pher Columbus, the Genoaese, left his home who wish to sing or play instruments in a band or orchestra are urged to •mu* Dear us. Someone had better tell the man to work for Isabella of Spain. So did the attend. Black Jungle Alligator Calf that one accepts a university education as Portugese Magellan. Brown Jungle Alligator Calf. FISH AND GAME. Meeting Ap. Sc. one accepts a four-mile run. In short, you John Cabot, the Florentine, was common don't "accept" the damned thing at all. You 100 Wednesday 12:30. Guest speaker, cheat enough to work for England. Erasmus, Miss Burdick speaking on Fly-casting 895 earn it. You put your head down, start run­ John Calvin—and Marx and Engels, too- in B.C. ning, and work for it- And unless you have MEZZANINE FLOOR more influence with the Bursar than we That list also includes Mrs. R. P. Steeves, VARSITY CHRISTIAN Fellowship think you have; you also pay good hard who, under Mr. Cameron, is first vice-presi­ present Dr. P. W. Philpott, speaking money, or contribute war service, for it. on "The Transforming Power of the dent of the CCF in this province. Born in Gospel"—Arts 204, 12:30 Wednesday, Not so, says Mr. Cameron. The farmer, Holland, and graduating from the University October 22. All are welcome. the miner, the fisherman and the logger are of Leydn with an LLD degree, she became your "patrons". Ipse dixit. If you desert your by Mr. Cameron's mad yardstick, a common EAMON PARK, DIRECTOR United Steel Workers of Canada, will speak patrons you are a low bum, indeed. cheat the day she left her native land for to the Socialist Forum Wednesday, 401 MANVIULI IT. For charity's sake, let us assume that Canada. Without, of course, Mr. Cameron's October 22, 12:30 noon, Arts 100, on Mr. Cameron is incapable of distinguishing permission- [ "Why Labour Strikes." rednesday, October 22, 1947 THE DAILY UBYSSEY •rarw-' PAGE 3 Greek Pledges Party Honors DELTA UPSILON: Jim Bagnall, Al Marshall, Victor Kuzyk, Stewart Pet- tigrew, Frederick Cashman, John Non-Canadians Ruck, Evan Abercrombie, Barrie Ford, Douglas Parkin, Douglas Cart­ Students attending UBC from all er, James Moynes, E, McConachie, Robert DeVito, Bill Martin, Bob parts of the world are to be honored Breadon, Donald Fleetham, David at a reception in Brock Hall at 3:30 Hinds, John MacGowan, Walter Nis- bet, Daynard Welsh, C. Bakony, p.m. on October 24 George Henderson. Students from abroad, numbering "Pin GAMMA DELTA: Marce Wes- 'close to 60, represent countries from seon, Tony McCrossan, William Ib- bott, William Rosene, Mac Bredt, all parts of the world, including Harry Roberts, Gordon Ballantyne, Latin America, Greece, Poland, Nor­ Jim Brown, Lome Tomalty, Marin Lister. way, Egypt, Ethiopia, and the United -..John Huyck, Stuart Sinclair, Don­ States. ald McKay, Ronald Bray, Ronald Ptolemy, Gilbert Smith, Don Easton, The student council will form the George Hilliard, Frank Halloway receiving line, and the group will Peter Hughes, Bob Harvey, Robert hear addresses by president of the Hemmingsen, Rick Weldon, Nigel AMS, Grant Livingstone, and Dr. N. Clark. A.M. MacKenzie, president of the ZETA PSI: Ross Hamilton, Harry Boyle, Deane Bumside, Norman Mc- University. Carvill, Peter Reeves, Harry Rogers, Kay Livingstone, member of the John Boak, John Micnas, Bill Lan- drum,' Peter Roger, Jack Johnson, committee in charge of the affair, Barry McDougall, William Donnelly, invites students who come from R. Hanna, John Graham, Desmond other countries to the reception, Gorges, Hugh Purvis, Neil McFadden, whether they have received invi­ Ken McCallum, Robert Mills, Rich­ tations or not. ard Martin, Don Urquhart, Wallace NOTICES It is reported, according to authori­ states that the Jokers will gladly Robson, Bill McGavin, Doug Dewar. Jokers Plan tative sources, that the Jokers have carry students out to the campus, As Executives of several campus clubi PHI DELTA THETA: Jack Gardin­ on hand four tons of dynamite, two AN IMPORTANT meeting for old here is only a limited number of have been invited also. These in­ er, Gordin Young, Metvin Richards, members will be held on Thursday, tanks, and one small atom bomb. Jokers, only women will be accomo­ clude representatives of the Inter­ Ken Jones, Don Garner, Terry Car­ October 23 in Ap. Sci. 202. The Hallo­ UBC Annihilation Besides these interesting props, the ton, Garvin Robinson, G. Thorn- we'en party will be discussed. Jokers will be dressed in zany cos- dated. national Relations Club, the United thwaite, Albert Knudson, Jack Ken­ Joker Day is tomorrow. The tumes. Nations Society, the Student Chris­ Jokers, to prove that they are not a A secret meeting of all Jokers old, nedy, George Hoover, David Leckie, ENGLISH EXCELSIOR MOTOR- tian Movement, the Varsity Christian Robert Reid, Ronald Gunn, Gilford cycle. Perfect condition. Price 1125.00. defunct organization have almost In order that all strike-bound stu­ new and prospective, will be held Fellowship, and the Students Inter­ Allan, James McLean, Robert An- Room 202, Anglican Theological Col­ completed plans for a complete anni­ dents be on hand for the last hours somewhere in Ap Sc 202 at 12:30 to­ nable, Bruce Buchanan, Robin Mc- lege, UBC. hilation of the university. of the university, head Joker Ellis day. national Service Committee. Creery, Frank Nightingale, Stewart Dikson, Keith Olson, Allan Nicolson, Joe Capozzi, Gordon Lyall, Peter Walker, Bill Manson. PHI KAPPA PI: Bill Hughes, Bob Lane, Bill Hamilton, Harry Smith, Al Docksteader, Bob Weber, Cameron Fielding, Angus McDonald, Bruce Ramsay. PSI UPSILON: George Beattie, Marshall Smith, Ross Owen, Don Bertram, Art Earlback, Ronald Wil­ liams, Ken Thompson, Alex Golou­ bef, David Story, Harvey Allan, Keith Hope, Andy Klimivich, PHI KAPPA SIGMA: Howard Al­ ton, Roy Kelsberg, John Montgom­ ery, Ronald Warner, Charles Law­ rence, Ken Peters, David Potts. Bill West, Doug Yearnwood, Rich­ ard Blockberger, E. Davis, Gerald Eedy. TAU OMEGA: Murdo MacLeod, Harry Turncy, Edward Foot, Mau­ rice Mulligan, Michael Roop, Bill Slipper, Cyril McGuire, Peter Culos, Gordon Scott, Allan Coulaon, Rod MacKenzie, Bob Huestis, Bruce Scott, Brian Carrigan, Justin Greene, Ray­ mond LeBlanc. ZETA BETA TAU: Ernest Milgram, Bob Liverant, Michael Jampolsky, Yale Joffe, Gerald Levey, Robert Raphael, P. Shaberg, Hershel Sam­ uels, Bernard Laven, G. Potter, Allan Goldsmith, Jack Saifer. SIGMA PHI DELTA: John Old­ ham, Joseph Harbell, Ken Smith, Alvin Nemetz, Harry Greig. CHI SIGMA CHI: Don Whyte, Gor­ don Baum, Roy Donaldson, Ken Mac- Pherson, Lyle Hardy, George Rich­ ards, Howard Eckman, Tom Gray, Hugh Addison, Mike Hammersley, Frank Murphy, Bill Reid, Ben Tan­ ner, Bob Wilkins. ALPHA DELTA PHI: John Mur­ ray, Bob Thurston, Bob Ross, Ray­ mond Whitney, Bill McNab, Pat Thorsteinsson, E. Alderdice. Charles Bayne, Jack Sloan Richard Jonnson, John Panton, John McAlpine. BETA THETA PI: Douglas Frank­ lin, Norm Watt, Robert Kerr, Donald Johnson, Charles Flavelle, Doug Bell, Doug Sherlock, Hugh Ross, Russell Latham, Ron Cliff, Gerard Farry, Pet­ er Stievenpiper, Ez. Henniger, Ken­ neth Campbell, Walter Wilde, Al Mc- Martin. KAPPA SIGMA: Perth Webster, Ross Johnson, Art Mason, George Darty, Stu Todd, Dick Mitchell, Roy Woodman, Cecil Taylor, Peter Trim, Dmitri Goloubef, Lloyd Leeming Jack GUlis, Ken Sinclair, Lionel Jinks, Bill Shortreed, George Hank- #. r.... L M **. w*#* inson, Doug Turland, James Jonnson, Joe Gilmour.

DVA OFFICIALS DENY RUMOR For the benefit of veterans who be­ lieve that they must apply for re- establishment credits before the end of the year, DVA officials announce that' application for credits can be made anytime within ten years of discharge. Officials point out that the mis­ understanding has arisen from the fact that December 31, 1947 is the dead­ line for vocational and educational training and, in most instances, for jjtafcotft'&aQ damping. 'awaiting returns' applications. INCORPORATED 2?» MAY 1670 THE DAILY UBYSSEY PAGE 4 Wednesday, October 22, 1947 LETTER TO THE EDITOR

Dear Mr. Editor: field motion giving plenty of time Some rather broad statements were for beefy fullbacks to wind up and made by a Mr. Hunter in a lengthy follow 4 or 5 blockers. editorial on the Sports Page of last The general attitude seems to be Wednesday's issue. Mr. Hunter seems that the Thunderbirds cannot play CHICK TURNER, Sports Editor to have been influenced by the rather a good game and lose. Mr. Hunter ASSOCIATES—Hal Murphy, Al Hunter, Dick Blockberget sketchy and baseless observation of makes a point of this when he men­ a certain downtown sports columnist tions his opinion of Mr. Rabat's re­ REPORTERS THIS ISSUE: Jack Melville, Roy Huish, Bruce Saunders, Jean who is an avid supporter of the marks to the effect that "the boys Wilby, Gil Gray. Canadian code. Mr. Greg Kabat has looked a lot better out there (Bell­ a few different views and may be ingham) than at any other previous said to carry a little weight when time". Did Mr. Hunter really ex­ speaking of either game. Mr. Kabat pect us to win that game? UBC must Full Sport Card Slated was an Ail-American guard for Wis­ have been playing pretty well de­ consin at one time is said to have fensively to keep the score down to been offered a job coaching the 32-0! It is sometimes surprising just Detroit Lions, Mr, Kabat further how deceptive a score can be when For Homecoming Fun-Day distinguished himself by some brainy considered in the light of the play By GIL GRAY quarterbacking for the Wnnipeg Blue on the field. We've got a green Bombers in his day. team and it will take time; the same "Come Home for Homecoming," is the cry in the air. Bring So that when a self-confessed time that every other team has taken all your friends then, get the whole gang together, and como "non-expert" takes the liberty of 0 reach the top. on out!! taking exception to certain of Mr. As an example of how a score can -<$> Rabat's opinions on a comparison of deceive, just scan the following fig­ Homecoming Day this year will be the two codes, readers may rightly ures on the Wisconsin-California held on Saturday, November the feel that Mr. Hunter is wading in game which took place last week: Robinson Wins first. a little too far. First downs 13 10 Homecoming Day - the day that Mr. Hunter claims that the sweep­ Net yards rushing 325 335 the alumni return to the scene of ing "end runs" of Mr. Glenn Davis Net yards passing 128 140 Cricket 'Blue* their crimes - the day that the Uni­ of Army's 1946 squad, prove that end Aver. dist. of punts 45.5 41.6 by LES BULLEN versity is thrown open to the public runs are effective under the Ameri­ ards penalized 20 50 One of UBC's most famous athletic in general - the day that old friends, can code. Anyone who has followed FINAL SCORE sons and 1940 Rhodes Scholar, Basil and new will meet in the Brock Hall Army's victory stretch by radio dur­ California 48; Wisconsin 7 Robinson, this summer achieved the for the Homecoming Dance. ing the past four years knows that Yours sincerely, great distinction of becoming the first SPORTS PLANNED Mr. Davis ran up his yardage either Football fan Canadian ever to be awarded his But most important to the Sport's through off-tackle plays or running * < * "blue" for cricket at Oxford. page of this edition, it will be the through a broken field and had very ED. NOTE—(The following Is Al A cricket "blue" at Oxford or day that perhaps the American foot­ little to do with end sweeps. I wish Hunter's reply to above letter). Cambridge is perhaps the most covet­ ball team will break into the win to offer a few figures, which upon While many of your statements are ed university athletic award in the column and that the fans will have reflection, would seem to show that well taken, I feel that I must take British Commonwealth. In winning it, their first chance to see this year's Davis cannot prove Mr, Hunter's exception to certain of them. Your Basil reached the brightest point yet TTiunderbird basketball club in ac­ — Ubyssey Photo, courtesy ivncjiy Junes point, point re Glen Davis and end runs in his brilliant sports career. tion. UP IN ARMS—The two latest additions to the Thunderbird Ini total offence last year, '*Mr makes it clear to me that in this Basil was an outstanding member If you are a sports fan this will Davis gained 712 yards rushing and respect I was in error. of four crack teams: North Shore hoop squad are well-known figures of the Varsity strip. Shown 396 yards passing for a total of 1108 However, I cannot accept your in­ surely be a BIG day for you. Whether above are Reid Mitchell, left and Bill Bell, two men who have United, Dominion soccer champions student or grad, there will be thrills yards. This average as good enough ference that I was influenced by the in 1938; Varsity's famous rugger team a-plenty in store for you. risen from the ranks to try their style with the 'Birdmen- to rank him tenth among the top observations of a "certain downtown of 1938 (the "wonder" team of Major offensive backs. But the top man sports columnist". If you will read The gridmen have been taking some Dobble); the B.C. Junior Cricket team was a Mr, Mackrides of Nevada who again the article in question I believe pretty awful beatings at the hands of of 1939, which swept the Inter-Pro­ lost 70 yards rushing but gained 1254 you will find that I took exception other universities, at other univer­ vincial Junior Cricket Championships 'Bird Hoopmen Prepping yards passing for a total 1184 yards. to statements made by both Mr. sities. That is, of course, if we be­ held in Vancouver; and in 1940, the A Mr. Layne from Texas tossed 77 Kabat and Mr. McConnell. I fail lieve all we read. But this will be Varsity XI, Mainland League cham­ passes for 1122 yards and gained 338 to see any instance in which I was a home game and the crowd is in pions. yards rushing and a Mr. Harry Gil­ "influenced" by either. store for a sight of hard-driving, For Homecoming Contest Picking up his Rhodes Scholarship mer had a habit of running back Also, I was slightly confused by hard-hitting football. at Oxford last Fall, Basil played soc­ By DICK BLOCKBERGER punts; 37 of them for 436 yards! How certain of your statements concerning PIONEERS HERE cer and rugger for his college during much of Mr. Davis' 712 yards was the relative records of the best Ameri­ The team our entry will meet on UBC's pride and joy, the Thunder­ - the winter term, and in April turned picked up on "end sweeps" is un­ can halfbacks. You claim that the the field of battle will be the Lewis Dave Campbell, and Gord Selman. out for the cricket trials, along with bird basketball squad is already hard known, but he was thrown for a total "top" man was a "Mr. Mackrides of and Clarke "Pioneers". These boys scores of cricket hopefuls from Eng­ at work prepping for the coming All of these boys are experienced loss of 123 yards through the season Nevada" who gained a net total of have been playing fairly well this land, South Africa, Australia, India, Season. melomasters and are expected to and ranked second in this respect 1148 yards. Yet in the next sentence year but lt still may be UBC's chance New Zealand, in fact from nearly being surpassed only by Tidwell of you state that Layne, from Texas, Do win. The 'Birds, who last year ended up make a good showing. Auburn. Undoubtedly the first class gained a net total of 1460 yards. I everywhere in the Empire. in third place in the conference, are Rookies added to the team this v m as we as whole Army line missed the odd block on am afraid I do not follow your line Although Basil is no slouch when *">• ** > « *"» out to repeat their performance of University, was sorry to hear of Joe year are Reid Mitchell and Bill Bell the odd "end sweep". of reasoning. it comes to batting, it was his fine two years ago when they waltzed off-spin bowling and brilliant fielding Fairleigh's bad luck at Salem. That who turned in a very creditable pre- The above would seem to indicate In your statement, "The general through the league in a Cakewalk. which finally won him his place on they will miss him from the line-up formance at last Friday's Frosh-Soph that order forms of offense are far attitude seems to be that the Thun­ Returning veterans who are even now the Oxford XI against such stiff com­ there is no doubt, but they will still more effective than rushing. This is derbirds cannot play a good game practicing in the gym are John hoop tilt. petition. be trying hard out there on the field. of course far from truth. Even IF Mr. and lose", you are obviously refer­ Forsythe, Pat McGreer, Bob Haas, November 28-29 will see the 'Birds in Game time is 2:30 in the Stadium Davis had picked up half of his ring to my attitude; again I take After several trial matches on the Harry Kermode, Jerry Stevenson, Eugene Oregon playing the Uni­ and regular prices will be charged. yardage on "end sweeps," the cap­ exception. If you will check the famous Parks Ground at Oxford, in versity of Oregon in an invitation (50 cents - student rush) Jim McLean, Nev Munro, Bob Scar, sport page of the Daily Ubyssey for which his best batting performance abilities of an individual player can­ series. This annual tournament last Tuesday, October 7, I believe you will was 51 against Lancashire, he was But if you lean towards indoor not be the basis for the rule. If an­ year saw the Birds succumb 88-41 find that I gave the Thunderbirds chosen to go on tour for two weeks sports and are not the "outdoorsey" other budding "Davis" should turn and 73-37. However, last year was considerable credit for their showing as one of 14, from whom the 11 would type, there will be a fast and furious Femme Swim Club out for practices under Coach Kabat another story, and the squad which against College of Puget Sound. be chosen for the match against Cam­ basketball game for you in the even­ AND if the blockers should suddenly UBC will be sending on the floor bridge, and the winning of the covet- ing. blossom into Pooles and Folbergs From your statements regarding td "blue". GRADS VS BIRDS Signs NeWiCoach next November will be all out to and Tuckers, then perhaps Mr. Kabat the Bellingham game and the accom­ The Grads, starring such promin­ rock Oregon back on its collective might make an exception and run the panying yardstick of the Wisconsin- All Oxford's matches were against The feminine edition of the UBC ent mellonmen as Ron Weber, Harry heels with power. odd "end sweep". The Canadian California match it would appear 1st Div. Country teams, the "Big Swim Club will enter its own this Franklin, Sandy Robertson, Hunk code, on the other hand, is conduc­ that you did not witness the contest League" in English cricket, and in coming season with the announce­ The first home game of the Blue Henderson, and a lot of others, al­ ive to end-round plays with back- in Bellingham. these games Basil turned in some neat ment from the Department of Physi­ and Gold squad will be played on most the 'Loma club intact, will meet In case you are laboring under bowling performances, to clinch his cal Education that the girls will have November 1, when the 'Bird-Grad the delusion that the Thunderbird position on the XI, the Birds at 9:00 in the UBC Gym­ classic will be staged. The student their own coach. record in Bellingham was compar­ Against Worchester he took 6 wick­ nasium. Hornet player of last year, quintet managed to nose out the Queen of the 1947 mermaids will Joker Hoop Team able to that of Western Washington, ets for 55 runs, 4 for 34 vs the M.C.C., Reg Clarkson, is not expected to be grads last year by a score of 37-35. be Miss Hazel Smith, a congenial 1 would ask you to refer to the offi­ 2 for 15 against Middlesex, and 4 for in strip because of an injured hand. As for this season, it's anybody's dark-eyed third year Arts student cial yardstick of the game, published 150 against the touring South African BIRDS READY guess. To Meet Council Test Team, one of his victims being The Birds will be pretty well stock­ who returns to UBC for the second in the Ubyssey of October 15. ALL BUT WEBER The maples of the gymnasium floor Melville, the S. A. skipper. Finally ed and ready for anything the Grads time. Lastly, I have heard of no law From what can be seen from recent are in for a terrific beating this in the Cambridge match itself, he have got to offer. Commenting on the new situation concerning the "Divine right of foot­ practices, the entire Thunderbird Friday if the members of the newly took 4 for 51, a magnificent per­ The team will be composed of Nev which will deprive him of his duties ball coaches" and therefore feel that team from last year will be returning organized Jokers Club have anything formance. Munroe, "Bobbin' Bobby" Scarr, Pat as nstructor in women's swimming, I, or anyone else who so desires, is to the maples with the exception of to say in the matter. The gym is to McGeer, Bob Haas, Veteran Harry Assstant Athletic Director Doug at perfect liberty to take exception UBC 'is proud of you, Basil and he diminuive captain of last year's be the scene of proposed Basketball Kermode, "Long John" Forsythe, Whittle confided to your press. to remarks made by same. I main­ especially the Varsity Cricket Club is aggregation, Ron Weber. game with the members of the Coun­ extremely happy that one of the' Gord>' Selman, Dave Campbell, "Ifs a big weight of my shoulders. tained, and I still maintain, that the Reid Mitchell, who has been added cil out to defend their decision con­ founders of the club has achieved "Smllin' Jimmy" McLean, and Jerry I admit that coaching the girls was 'Birds were not up to par in their to the squad this year, has come up cerning the Jokers club. match with Western Washington. such distinction in playing "the finest Stevenson. fun, but my wife was so suspicious." from the Chiefs, the Senior A quin­ The big battle is all part of a Joker Two newcomers to this year's team KNOWS SWIMMING game yet devised by the wit of man." pep meet that will take place at will be out for the game. They are tet on which he was high scorer be­ Miss Smith knows her swimming. 12:30 in the gym. The Jokers feel Reid Mitchell, winner of last year's fore he was forced to retire due to She has been engaged in competitive that they have a moral right to take Whittle Working "Most Valuable Player" award for injury. aquatics since she was 17 and holds New Basketball his work on the Chiefs, and "Big Bill Bell, is a lofty pivot man from over the Brock Hall, or at least the several records in BC and PNA Bill" Bell, Inter A ball player for the Inter A soph team of last year offices at present occupied by the Championships over the 50 and 100 Senior A Entry Varsity last year. which went on to take the provin­ Council. yd distances. Timetable Ready STUDENT EFFORT cial championship. In announcing the game, Ace Coach Doug Whittle is really While a photographer in the Wrens, Joker Ellis has given the line-up that Here is the latest men's basketball Both the football and basketball beginning to give his Senior A she organized a water pageant com­ will take the floor for the honour schedule. There was one posted last games will be thrillers from start to boys the well-known "works". of the Pack. They expect to have week but "there have been some finish. This Homecoming program prising the efforts of grils who were With the Senior A circut getting changes made." This one is really will give the students of UBC a chance entirely devoid of aquatic know­ Dick Pen, Norm Watt, Bruce Thomp­ under way in the first of November, definite. to show the public that they are one ledge before she took over their son, Perth Webster, Dick Ellis, and time runs short to work out the fini- A copy of this list has been posted hundred percent behind their Collegi­ coaching. possibly, according to rumour, the ishing touches on the team. Some two dozen aspirants have in the hall of the gymnasium. ate entries, win or lose. Miss Smith plans to feature both Levy Brothers may even be out. been present at the frequent pract­ INTERMEDIATES competitive and display swimming In his statement concerning the We really need a big student at­ ices in the last two weeks. Prospects PRACTICE in her classes this year, and there is outcome of the game, Ace Joker tendance on Homecoming Day, Let':- for the entry appear to be pretty Wednesday—4:30-6:00 a possibility of a display before the Dick Ellis said, "We'll be pulling have it. good. Friday—6:30-8:00 public next spring. plenty of tricks out of the deck and Monday—7:00-8:30. wc hope to lose the Council in the Foremost among those turning out Classes are held every Monday shuffle. are Gord Broadhead, of last year's SENIOR B MEETING night from 9:30 to 10:30 atthe Crystal Tlie Jokers feel that it is only Chiefs, Art Phillips and Rob Abcr- PRACTICE There will be a meeting of the Pool. crombie of Dunbar Inter B. Trev Wednesday—6:00-8:00 Men's Intramural Representatives in right to caution tho fans that it might Shaw and Gord Blake from Varsity Monday-8:30-? Hut G-3, today, Wednesday, October be a rough tilt as they expect to score Inter A. Special attention to the Senior B 22, at 12:30. This is urgent. BOXING a few baskets with the Council Mem­ call is asked of the last year's Senior "The team will be composed of 12 There will be an important meet­ bers making the trip through the hoop B team, the Acadians, the combined men. It will be picked just before ing of the Boxing Club today at 12:30 themselves. Law-Commerce teams. All players AQUAMAIDS! AQUAMEN! Club our first game in November," says in Arts 102. All interested please at­ It's all part of the big pop meet interested are asked to turn out for meeting Arts 102, Thursday October tend, Plans for an inter-club .meet I IVOR WYNNE on Friday at 12:30 in the gym. The Chuck Marshal], Chief manager. these practices. 23, 12:30. will be discussed. . . . 'mural boss Jokers arc in action again. "Till then, who knows?"