Third Session, 39th Parliament
official report of Debates of the Legislative Assembly
(hansard)
Thursday, June 2, 2011 Afternoon Sitting Volume 24, Number 5
the honourable bill barisoff, speaker
ISSN 0709-1281 PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA (Entered Confederation July 20, 1871)
LIEUTENANT-GOVERNOR His Honour the Honourable Steven L. Point, OBC
Third Session, 39th Parliament
SPEAKER OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Honourable Bill Barisoff
EXECUTIVE COUNCIL
Premier and President of the Executive Council...... Hon. Christy Clark Deputy Premier and Minister of Finance...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Minister of Aboriginal Relations and Reconciliation...... Hon. Mary Polak Minister of Advanced Education...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Minister of Agriculture...... Hon. Don McRae Attorney General...... Hon. Barry Penner, QC Minister of Children and Family Development...... Hon. Mary McNeil Minister of Community, Sport and Cultural Development...... Hon. Ida Chong Minister of Education...... Hon. George Abbott Minister of Energy and Mines and Minister Responsible for Housing...... Hon. Rich Coleman Minister of Environment...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Minister of Forests, Lands and Natural Resource Operations...... Hon. Steve Thomson Minister of Health...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Minister of Jobs, Tourism and Innovation...... Hon. Pat Bell Minister of Labour, Citizens' Services and Open Government...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General...... Hon. Shirley Bond Minister of Social Development and Minister Responsible for Multiculturalism...... Hon. Harry Bloy Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom
LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY
Leader of the OfficialO pposition...... Adrian Dix Deputy Speaker...... Linda Reid Assistant Deputy Speaker...... Dawn Black Deputy Chair, Committee of the Whole...... Douglas Horne Clerk of the Legislative Assembly...... E. George MacMinn, OBC, QC Clerk Assistant...... Robert Vaive Clerk Assistant and Law Clerk...... Ian D. Izard, QC Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees...... Craig H. James (on leave) Clerk Assistant and Acting Clerk of Committees...... Kate Ryan-Lloyd Sergeant-at-Arms...... Gary Lenz ALPHABETICAL LIST OF MEMBERS LIST OF MEMBERS BY RIDING
Abbott, Hon. George (L)...... Shuswap Abbotsford-Mission...... Randy Hawes Austin, Robin (NDP)...... Skeena Abbotsford South...... John van Dongen Bains, Harry (NDP)...... Surrey-Newton Abbotsford West...... Hon. Michael de Jong, QC Barisoff, Hon. Bill (L)...... Penticton Alberni–Pacific Rim...... Scott Fraser Barnett, Donna (L)...... Cariboo-Chilcotin Boundary-Similkameen...... John Slater Bell, Hon. Pat (L)...... Prince George–Mackenzie Burnaby–Deer Lake...... Kathy Corrigan Bennett, Bill (L)...... Kootenay East Burnaby-Edmonds...... Raj Chouhan Black, Dawn (NDP)...... New Westminster Burnaby-Lougheed...... Hon. Harry Bloy Black, Iain (L)...... Port Moody–Coquitlam Burnaby North...... Richard T. Lee Bloy, Hon. Harry (L)...... Burnaby-Lougheed Cariboo-Chilcotin...... Donna Barnett Bond, Hon. Shirley (L)...... Prince George–Valemount Cariboo North...... Bob Simpson Brar, Jagrup (NDP)...... Surrey-Fleetwood Chilliwack...... John Les Cadieux, Hon. Stephanie (L)...... Surrey-Panorama Chilliwack-Hope...... Hon. Barry Penner, QC Cantelon, Ron (L)...... Parksville-Qualicum Columbia River–Revelstoke...... Norm Macdonald Chandra Herbert, Spencer (NDP)...... Vancouver–West End Comox Valley...... Hon. Don McRae Chong, Hon. Ida (L)...... Oak Bay–Gordon Head Coquitlam–Burke Mountain...... Douglas Horne Chouhan, Raj (NDP)...... Burnaby-Edmonds Coquitlam-Maillardville...... Diane Thorne Clark, Hon. Christy (L)...... Vancouver–Point Grey Cowichan Valley...... Bill Routley Coell, Murray (L)...... Saanich North and the Islands Delta North...... Guy Gentner Coleman, Hon. Rich (L)...... Fort Langley–Aldergrove Delta South...... Vicki Huntington Conroy, Katrine (NDP)...... Kootenay West Esquimalt–Royal Roads...... Maurine Karagianis Coons, Gary (NDP)...... North Coast Fort Langley–Aldergrove...... Hon. Rich Coleman Corrigan, Kathy (NDP)...... Burnaby–Deer Lake Fraser-Nicola...... Harry Lali Dalton, Marc (L)...... Maple Ridge–Mission Juan de Fuca...... John Horgan de Jong, Hon. Michael, QC (L)...... Abbotsford West Kamloops–North Thompson...... Hon. Dr. Terry Lake Dix, Adrian (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kingsway Kamloops–South Thompson...... Kevin Krueger Donaldson, Doug (NDP)...... Stikine Kelowna–Lake Country...... Norm Letnick Elmore, Mable (NDP)...... Vancouver-Kensington Kelowna-Mission...... Hon. Steve Thomson Falcon, Hon. Kevin (L)...... Surrey-Cloverdale Kootenay East...... Bill Bennett Farnworth, Mike (NDP)...... Port Coquitlam Kootenay West...... Katrine Conroy Fleming, Rob (NDP)...... Victoria–Swan Lake Langley...... Hon. Mary Polak Foster, Eric (L)...... Vernon-Monashee Maple Ridge–Mission...... Marc Dalton Fraser, Scott (NDP)...... Alberni–Pacific Rim Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows...... Michael Sather Gentner, Guy (NDP)...... Delta North Nanaimo...... Leonard Krog Hammell, Sue (NDP)...... Surrey–Green Timbers Nanaimo–North Cowichan...... Doug Routley Hansen, Colin (L)...... Vancouver-Quilchena Nechako Lakes...... John Rustad Hawes, Randy (L)...... Abbotsford-Mission Nelson-Creston...... Michelle Mungall Hayer, Dave S. (L)...... Surrey-Tynehead New Westminster...... Dawn Black Heed, Kash (L)...... Vancouver-Fraserview North Coast...... Gary Coons Hogg, Gordon (L)...... Surrey–White Rock North Island...... Claire Trevena Horgan, John (NDP)...... Juan de Fuca North Vancouver–Lonsdale...... Hon. Naomi Yamamoto Horne, Douglas (L)...... Coquitlam–Burke Mountain North Vancouver–Seymour...... Jane Thornthwaite Howard, Rob (L)...... Richmond Centre Oak Bay–Gordon Head...... Hon. Ida Chong Huntington, Vicki (Ind.)...... Delta South Parksville-Qualicum...... Ron Cantelon James, Carole (NDP)...... Victoria–Beacon Hill Peace River North...... Pat Pimm Karagianis, Maurine (NDP)...... Esquimalt–Royal Roads Peace River South...... Hon. Blair Lekstrom Krog, Leonard (NDP)...... Nanaimo Penticton...... Hon. Bill Barisoff Krueger, Kevin (L)...... Kamloops–South Thompson Port Coquitlam...... Mike Farnworth Kwan, Jenny Wai Ching (NDP)...... Vancouver–Mount Pleasant Port Moody–Coquitlam...... Iain Black Lake, Hon. Dr. Terry (L)...... Kamloops–North Thompson Powell River–Sunshine Coast...... Nicholas Simons Lali, Harry (NDP)...... Fraser-Nicola Prince George–Mackenzie...... Hon. Pat Bell Lee, Richard T. (L)...... Burnaby North Prince George–Valemount...... Hon. Shirley Bond Lekstrom, Hon. Blair (L)...... Peace River South Richmond Centre...... Rob Howard Les, John (L)...... Chilliwack Richmond East...... Linda Reid Letnick, Norm (L)...... Kelowna–Lake Country Richmond-Steveston...... John Yap MacDiarmid, Dr. Margaret (L)...... Vancouver-Fairview Saanich North and the Islands...... Murray Coell Macdonald, Norm (NDP)...... Columbia River–Revelstoke Saanich South...... Lana Popham McIntyre, Joan (L)...... West Vancouver–Sea to Sky Shuswap...... Hon. George Abbott McNeil, Hon. Mary (L)...... Vancouver–False Creek Skeena...... Robin Austin McRae, Hon. Don (L)...... Comox Valley Stikine...... Doug Donaldson Mungall, Michelle (NDP)...... Nelson-Creston Surrey-Cloverdale...... Hon. Kevin Falcon Penner, Hon. Barry, QC (L)...... Chilliwack-Hope Surrey-Fleetwood...... Jagrup Brar Pimm, Pat (L)...... Peace River North Surrey–Green Timbers...... Sue Hammell Polak, Hon. Mary (L)...... Langley Surrey-Newton...... Harry Bains Popham, Lana (NDP)...... Saanich South Surrey-Panorama...... Hon. Stephanie Cadieux Ralston, Bruce (NDP)...... Surrey-Whalley Surrey-Tynehead...... Dave S. Hayer Reid, Linda (L)...... Richmond East Surrey-Whalley...... Bruce Ralston Routley, Bill (NDP)...... Cowichan Valley Surrey–White Rock...... Gordon Hogg Routley, Doug (NDP)...... Nanaimo–North Cowichan Vancouver-Fairview...... Dr. Margaret MacDiarmid Rustad, John (L)...... Nechako Lakes Vancouver–False Creek...... Hon. Mary McNeil Sather, Michael (NDP)...... Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows Vancouver-Fraserview...... Kash Heed Simons, Nicholas (NDP)...... Powell River–Sunshine Coast Vancouver-Hastings...... Shane Simpson Simpson, Bob (Ind.)...... Cariboo North Vancouver-Kensington...... Mable Elmore Simpson, Shane (NDP)...... Vancouver-Hastings Vancouver-Kingsway...... Adrian Dix Slater, John (L)...... Boundary-Similkameen Vancouver-Langara...... Dr. Moira Stilwell Stewart, Ben (L)...... Westside-Kelowna Vancouver–Mount Pleasant...... Jenny Wai Ching Kwan Stilwell, Dr. Moira (L)...... Vancouver-Langara Vancouver–Point Grey...... Hon. Christy Clark Sultan, Ralph (L)...... West Vancouver–Capilano Vancouver-Quilchena...... Colin Hansen Thomson, Hon. Steve (L)...... Kelowna-Mission Vancouver–West End...... Spencer Chandra Herbert Thorne, Diane (NDP)...... Coquitlam-Maillardville Vernon-Monashee...... Eric Foster Thornthwaite, Jane (L)...... North Vancouver–Seymour Victoria–Beacon Hill...... Carole James Trevena, Claire (NDP)...... North Island Victoria–Swan Lake...... Rob Fleming van Dongen, John (L)...... Abbotsford South West Vancouver–Capilano...... Ralph Sultan Yamamoto, Hon. Naomi (L)...... North Vancouver–Lonsdale West Vancouver–Sea to Sky...... Joan McIntyre Yap, John (L)...... Richmond-Steveston Westside-Kelowna...... Ben Stewart
Party Standings: Liberal 49; New Democratic 34; Independent 2
CONTENTS
Thursday, June 2, 2011 Afternoon Sitting
Page
Routine Business
Introductions by Members...... 7849
Tributes...... 7849 Allan Williams J. McIntyre
Introductions by Members...... 7849
Tributes...... 7851 Frankie Bones M. Karagianis
Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 7851 Bill M215 — Senate Nominee Election Act J. Les Bill M216 — Poverty Reduction Act, 2011 S. Simpson Bill M217 — Workplace Bullying Prevention Act R. Chouhan
Statements (Standing Order 25B)...... 7852 Brain injury awareness C. James Western Canada Summer Games in Kamloops K. Krueger Elder abuse awareness K. Conroy Contributions of volunteers D. Hayer Community response to fire in Burnaby-Edmonds area R. Chouhan Graduates from schools in Burnaby North area R. Lee
Oral Questions...... 7854 Cost of government information on harmonized sales tax A. Dix Hon. C. Clark C. James Hon. K. Falcon Process for referendum on harmonized sales tax B. Ralston Hon. C. Clark Payment of legal fees in B.C. Rail court case and indemnity policy review J. Kwan Hon. B. Penner H. Lali
Ministerial Statements...... 7859 B.C. representation in House of Commons Hon. C. Clark A. Dix Tabling Documents...... 7860 Guarantees and indemnities authorized and issued report, fiscal year ended March 31, 2010 Multiculturalism report, 2009-10
Petitions...... 7860 S. Hammell
Motions Without Notice...... 7860 Terms of reference for special and select standing committees Hon. R. Coleman
Orders of the Day
Committee of the Whole House...... 7862 Bill 11 — Yale First Nation Final Agreement Act (continued) B. Simpson Hon. M. Polak S. Fraser
Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 7867 Bill 11 — Yale First Nation Final Agreement Act
Committee of the Whole House...... 7867 Bill 8 — International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Aircraft Equipment) Act (continued) B. Ralston Hon. K. Falcon
Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 7869 Bill 8 — International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Aircraft Equipment) Act
Committee of the Whole House...... 7869 Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011 L. Krog Hon. D. McRae Hon. B. Penner C. Trevena Hon. M. McNeil Hon. T. Lake N. Macdonald Hon. S. Thomson
Reporting of Bills...... 7874 Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011
Third Reading of Bills...... 7874 Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011
Committee of the Whole House...... 7875 Bill 15 — Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act (No. 4) H. Lali Hon. I. Chong B. Ralston
Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 7877 Bill 15 — Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act (No. 4)
Introduction and First Reading of Bills...... 7877 Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012 Hon. K. Falcon
Second Reading of Bills...... 7877 Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012 Hon. K. Falcon Committee of the Whole House...... 7877 Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012
Report and Third Reading of Bills...... 7878 Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012
Royal Assent to Bills...... 7878 Bill 2 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2011 Bill 4 — Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) Initiative Vote and Referendum Act Bill 5 — New West Partnership Trade Agreement Implementation Act Bill 6 — Civil Forfeiture Amendment Act, 2011 Bill 7 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2011 Bill 8 — International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Aircraft Equipment) Act Bill 9 — Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Amendment Act, 2011 Bill 10 — Wills, Estates and Succession Amendment Act, 2011 Bill 11 — Yale First Nation Final Agreement Act Bill 12 — Police (Independent Investigations Office) Amendment Act, 2011 Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011 Bill 14 — Coastal Ferry Amendment Act, 2011 Bill 15 — Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act (No. 4) Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012
Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room
Committee of Supply...... 7879 Estimates: Office of the Premier (continued) Hon. C. Clark A. Dix Estimates: Ministry of Energy and Mines (continued) S. Simpson Hon. R. Coleman N. Simons Estimates: Legislation Estimates: Officers of the Legislature
7849
THURSDAY, JUNE 2, 2011 she represented B.C. schools in Washington, D.C., at a conference. She went on to run for the Green Party The House met at 1:35 p.m. federally. She was a member of Golden council — I think the youngest councillor ever elected — and she's [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] just finished an environmental law degree.I just want to ask the House to join me in welcoming her to Victoria. Routine Business Hon. C. Clark: I am delighted today to offer an intro- Introductions by Members duction for a constituent of mine in Vancouver–Point Grey. Dr. Peter Wong is joining us today. He and his C. James: We have 22 grade 5 students joining us family have made a lifetime of contributions to British today in the gallery. They're from Sir James Douglas Columbians in hundreds of different ways. One of School, a school in my riding, and they're in the French them, of course, is a huge contribution to Vancouver's immersion program. They're here with their teacher, Ms. Chinatown and the Asian community across British Claire King, and four parents. Would the House please Columbia. I hope the House will please welcome my make them very welcome. constituent, Dr. Peter Wong.
Tributes A. Dix: I want to introduce today the love of my life — my wife, Renée Saklikar, is in the galleries today — and ALLAN WILLIAMS to say to everybody in the House, especially on my side, I am not counting this as a date. In fact, hopefully, we'll J. McIntyre: With the session ending, I thought we be doing that later. Renée has assured me she is not do- would be remiss in not acknowledging the passing of one ing any primary research today on the harmonized sales of our distinguished former members. Allan Williams, tax. Nonetheless, I'd like everyone in the House to wish QC, passed away February 28, 2011, at the age of 88 years. her welcome. He's survived by his wife Marjorie and three children. In 1950 he earned a law degree from UBC, and in Hon. M. McNeil: Joining us in the House today are two the five decades of his career he combined a successful very hard-working people with government communi- legal practice with an exceptional career in public ser- cations and public engagement in my ministry. Jeremy vice. Amongst a variety of elected positions, I want to Uppenborn is a junior public affairs officer, andB ronwyn highlight his service to the Legislative Assembly of B.C. Lawrie is a co-op student from the University of Victoria where he served 17 years as MLA for West Vancouver– who has just joined us for the summer. They do great Howe Sound after being first elected in 1966. work, and I'm very fortunate to have them. So would He served as a Minister of Labour and Minister everybody please make them feel welcome. Responsible for Native Affairs and was appointed Attorney General in 1979 where he served in that post B. Routley: I have with me today in the Legislature until 1983 when he retired from provincial politics and Bill and Shirley Parks. Bill is quite a mountain of a guy. returned to private practice at Davis and Co. He ran the vertical resaw at the Youbou sawmill. I still Additionally, he served on several commissions and remember when I first met him back in the 1970s doing boards including the Whistler Land Corp. After a full that job. We had a wonderful tour and a nice lunch, and career, he was then lured back into local politics, serving we indulged in a piece of pie. With that, I would ask this three terms on West Vancouver council until he retired House to join me in welcoming Bill and Shirley Parks. in 2002 at the age of 80. I understand the Speaker's office is arranging to make M. Coell: I have a constituent visiting us today, Mona a donation to the Alzheimer's society at the request of Brash. She is accompanied by 24 officers from the the family — thank you, Mr. Speaker — but I'd like all Canadian Armed Forces from army, navy and air force. members of the House to take time today to acknowledge They come from greater Victoria and all across Canada the past accomplishments and contributions to British to study a set of university courses, the officer professional Columbia from a man clearly devoted to his profession military education program. They're actually studying and his community. Canadian federal and provincial politics at this time. Would the House please make them welcome. Introductions by Members [1340]
N. Macdonald: Carmen Gustafson is joining us here V. Huntington: I would like to introduce a constituent today. For anybody who has taught, this is one of those of mine, Mr. Eric Amlin, an engineer and technical trans- special students that come along. When she was a student, portation consultant, and Mr. Rod Fru. Both gentlemen 7850 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
are here on behalf of Wolf Trailer, which happens to be on a roll, the members will be pleased to know. I've recon- in the riding of our colleague from Vernon-Monashee. nected with my grade 5 teacher. Would the House join me in making them welcome. Interjections. R. Howard: I have a guest in the House today. Mark Rogers is the vice-president of a great British Columbian M. Dalton: Yes, grade 5. We're on a roll. group of companies. The Surespan Group built many I haven't seen her for 40 years, and yes, she is in the assets across this great province, including almost 5,000, I House. I knew her then as Miss DeIure. She was my think, resource bridges. Just as a note, Mark's father once teacher in the Canadian Forces Station Holberg, which occupied your chair, Mr. Speaker — the Hon. Stephen now is only trees. There's nothing remaining there, but Rogers. Would the House please make him welcome. there are trees. It's beautiful. She was a great teacher. She put me on a group called R. Fleming: I want to introduce a couple of guests in the Fast Four in math. She built up my self-confidence the gallery today. One of them is a good friend from my and wrote nice things in the report card. I do have those constituency and a member of my constituency associa- report cards still. Some people have said nice things tion. Tom Longman is here in the gallery with us. about me, yes. I want to join the member for Saanich North in wel- It's amazing that I haven't reconnected because she is, coming the students, the officers from theR oyal Military in fact, married to Gordon Campbell. I tell you the truth. College division of continuing studies, to the House. She is married to Gordon Campbell. Gordon served One of them is a friend of mine, who is here as a stu- alongside the RCAF in World War II and later became a dent. Scott McGregor has served overseas and studied teacher. Joanne and Gordon Campbell — that's her mar- firsthand and served our country in areas where polit- ried name now — live in Sidney, and I look forward to ical conflicts are a reality.H e's now studying B.C. politics. having lunch with them after question period. I'm just He may find some similarities between the two in his happy they're here. experiences. Would the House make him feel welcome Would the House please make them feel welcome. today here in the Legislature. [1345]
J. Thornthwaite: In the gallery I'd like to greet my con- Hon. M. Polak: We are joined in the gallery today by a stituent Carmina Gooch and her partner, Terry Roberge, very distinguished guest, Chief Robert Hope. He is here who came to visit the Minister of Agriculture with me to watch the rest of our discussion on committee stage of today. Would the House please welcome them. the Yale First Nation final agreement and to witness the historic vote that will take place later this afternoon. Hon. D. McRae: A constituent from the Comox Valley is visiting us today. Would the Legislature please D. Donaldson: Today visiting the precinct is the welcome Jim Harris to these chambers. Hazelton Secondary School's girls soccer team. They are amazing young women, great role models. They won the D. Routley: I have two guests today, my friend Wayne zones and are here in Victoria participating in the single-A Dunn and his son Kabore Dunn. Wayne is a consultant in provincial championships. After a 1,200-kilometre bus corporate social responsibility and has been since before ride yesterday, they're playing two games today. I would the term was ever coined. His wife, Gifty, is a native of like to ask the House to welcome the team, the parents Ghana. He works on social licensing projects. You'll find who came down and their teacher sponsor Stacey Brown. Wayne in that intersection between corporate, government, social and environmental project development. R. Cantelon: Joining us in the gallery today is Mr. One of his projects was the first private sector project John Hanuse. John has worked with us in the east annex to win the World Bank Development Innovation Award. and been of great help to our MLAs. He's completing His wife, Gifty, and he met while they were on the board of his contract here and will be returning to Cortes Island. an international development organization in Ottawa. Let's all wish him well for his great assistance and wish His son Kabore is a former teammate and friend of my him well in his future endeavours. stepson Matthew — a very good hockey player. Kabore was the last cut from the B.C. team last year, one of the Hon. G. Abbott: In the gallery today is Petty OfficerF irst youngest players in the camp. Class Chris McCrea, who's the husband of Jennifer McCrea, I'd like the House to help make my friend Wayne and who works and works ably in the Ministry of Education. his son Kabore welcome to our House. Chris is here, as others have noted, with his classmates and their instructor, Mona Brash, for a course that fascinatingly M. Dalton: A few weeks ago I had the pleasure of is entitled "The Canadian Forces and Modern Society: introducing my grade 4 teacher to the Legislature. I'm Civics, Politics and International Relations." Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7851
I understand that they have come here specifically with our federal counterparts to renew the Senate and to see our question period to provide a model of civil- find a mutually beneficial agreement to reimburse our ity, moderation and thoughtfulness. Would the House government for the expenses incurred in conducting please make them all welcome. the elections prescribed in this act. Thanks to advocates like Sen. Bert Brown from R. Sultan: In the gallery today we have a very poised Alberta, who is himself an elected senator, these are and capable young lady, Emily Driedger, a grade 11 student conversations of value enabling us to talk about real at Lambrick Park Secondary School in Gordon Head. change for British Columbians. The Senate Nominee Would you please make her welcome. Election Act provides a legal framework for the election of senatorial nominees to represent British Columbia in D. Hayer: Joining us in the precinct today are 22 grade the Senate of Canada. 7 students and 20 grade 5 students who are visiting from Our Premier has made a commitment to support the Ellendale Elementary School in my riding of Surrey- open government, and this act provides another tangible Tynehead. They are joined by their teacher and trustee example of following through on that commitment. At from New Westminster school board Michael Ewen as our recent convention B.C. Liberal members called for a well as parents and volunteers who have taken time out framework for electing senators. Following through on of their busy schedule to come over here. Would the that commitment to engage with British Columbians, I House please make them very welcome. am pleased to introduce this legislation. [1350] L. Reid: I have the absolute pleasure today of welcom- I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day ing to the world Isabella Catherine Ramsell, daughter of for second reading at the next sitting of the House after my niece and her husband, David. This is the babe that today. makes my sister into a grandmother, so it's remarkable for our family. I'd ask you all to make her very welcome. Bill M215, Senate Nominee Election Act, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders Tributes of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. Frankie Bones BILL M216 — POVERTY M. Karagianis: A young foster child with multiple REDUCTION ACT, 2011 challenges has reached a very successful pinnacle. I'd like the House to congratulate Frankie Bones, who is S. Simpson presented a bill intituled Poverty Reduction graduating this weekend. He has an extraordinary music Act, 2011. talent, and he has overcome many challenges to achieve an extraordinary goal in his life. I hope the House will S. Simpson: I move this bill be read for a first time now. offer great congratulations to Frankie Bones. Motion approved. Introduction and First Reading of Bills S. Simpson: This bill is intended to put in place a legis- lated poverty reduction strategy for British Columbia. Bill M215 — Senate Nominee This legislation will establish a minister accountable for Election Act poverty reduction in our province and will mandate that minister, following a comprehensive consultation J. Les presented a bill intituled Senate Nominee Election process, to report to the Legislature with accompanying Act. legislation to put a comprehensive plan in place that includes identified targets and timelines for poverty J. Les: I move that the act be read for a first time now. reduction. This legislation will also require that a representative Motion approved. advisory committee be established to support this poverty reduction strategy and that the minister report annually J. Les: The purpose of the bill is to modernize the to the House on the progress that is being made on this Canadian Senate in a way that reflects the values of plan. British Columbians and best represents British Columbia This is a critical and overdue initiative for British in the Senate of Canada. It is clear that the new federal Columbia. As a province we continue to have the worst government is open to Senate reform and hearing from levels of child poverty and overall poverty in Canada. provinces on best practices, and we are happy to engage Over 500,000 people in British Columbia live in poverty, 7852 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
and 120,000 of those are children, more than 11 percent and isolating people. It is an act to humiliate and intimi- of our total population. As a result, British Columbia has date people. over the past decade become the most unequal province In a workplace victims of bullying are unable to work in our nation. This inequality must end, and this Poverty to their full capacity. This not only impacts individuals but Reduction Act is a step in that direction. also the business. Productivity is affected, and it becomes Seven other provinces of all political stripes have a financial loss for the business owners. moved forward with similar strategies, yet B.C. has This bill carefully defines "harassment" and provides steadfastly refused to either provide meaningful sup- measures and procedures for workers to report incidental ports or be held accountable for helping the poor. workplace harassment. It provides sound policy for in- Poverty reduction is not an easy thing to do. It is not vestigating incidents and making workers accountable without costs, but in a civilized society, in a society as for acts of harassment. wealthy as ours in British Columbia, it is imperative that Other provinces such as Quebec, Ontario and Manitoba we do all we can to break this cycle of poverty and, in also have brought in similar laws. particular, do all we can to make sure that our children I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for have real opportunity. second reading at the next sitting of the House after today. This is about families. It is about children, seniors and the disabled. It is about women escaping violence. Bill M217, Workplace Bullying Prevention Act, intro- It is about aboriginal people in our communities. It duced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on is about our brothers and sisters, our parents and our orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting neighbours. of the House after today. It is about strategies in the areas of income, housing, [1355] child care, education, training and health. It is about the government being the catalyst to help build the part- Statements nerships with the non-profit sector, business, academia, (Standing Order 25B) social justice groups and other levels of government. I move that the Poverty Reduction Act be placed on BRAIN INJURY AWARENESS the orders of the day for second reading at the next sit- ting of the House after today. C. James: When someone breaks a leg, the injury is plain to see. But when someone suffers a brain injury, Bill M216, Poverty Reduction Act, 2011, introduced, the damage can be completely hidden from view, yet the read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders effects can be devastating and life-changing. of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the Every year in British Columbia there are about 14,000 House after today. new brain injuries. The result of such injuries can be temporary, or they can be lifelong and may cause partial R. Chouhan: I seek leave to table a bill. or total functional disability. Survivors of acquired brain injuries face monumental Leave granted. challenges. They need a tremendous amount of support to cope, to recover, to be active members of our society. BILL M217 — WORKPLACE BULLYING Their families and friends need support, too, and time to PREVENTION ACT learn and to understand. Around our province there are some amazing organ- R. Chouhan presented a bill intituled Workplace izations dedicated to making a difference. They include Bullying Prevention Act. the Victoria Brain Injury Society right here in Victoria– Beacon Hill, which runs on the people power of more than R. Chouhan: I move that the bill be read for a first 55 dedicated volunteers. Their goal is to help citizens time now. living with a brain injury to become self-reliant, confident and productive and to overcome the risks of homelessness, Motion approved. drug and alcohol addiction, and crime. The society provides a supportive and safe environment that empha- R. Chouhan: We all know the negative impact of sizes the abilities, not disabilities, of each individual. bullying on people. Victims of bullying have suffered severe By using the experience of volunteers who have experi- trauma caused by harassment, and in some cases it has enced an acquired brain injury themselves, the society's led people to commit suicide. Bullying does not stop on peer support program has proven to be a successful way the playground. It can carry on to the workplace. to help survivors deal with the devastating repercussions. Harassment causes psychological and physical harm. Volunteering can help the survivors, as well, and increase It includes wilful acts, patterns of behaviour, ignoring their ability to cope and rehabilitate themselves. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7853
June is Brain Injury Awareness Month. I hope that all Abuse Awareness Day. Elder advocates from around the members will join with me in thanking the individuals world promote awareness in an attempt to prevent elder and organizations across B.C. that have dedicated them- abuse. The slogan is "My world, your world, our world — selves to helping those working to recover and cope with free of elder abuse." brain injuries. The injury might be invisible, but not the Elder abuse comes in many forms — physical, emo- generosity and care of those who take on this important work. tional, neglect, financial and denial of rights.O ften assets It makes a huge difference in communities every day. are taken, health is adversely affected, family and friends can become alienated, and the victim is often threatened WESTERN CANADA SUMMER GAMES and intimidated by the perpetrator of the abuse. IN KAMLOOPS Elder abuse is surprisingly common. One in 12 seniors in B.C. is abused. More often than not the abuser of the K. Krueger: I'm pleased to rise and share the invita- elder is a family member, close friend or caregiver. The tion and the enthusiasm of the people of Kamloops and abused senior may be embarrassed and not willing to the Thompson valleys for the Western Canada Summer reveal the abuse or neglect. Games, which get underway 64 days from today. I ask The good news is that there are a number of organiza- the members opposite and all members of the House to tions in B.C. that are helping seniors to deal with abuse. please mark your calendars. The B.C. Centre for Elder Advocacy and Support is a August 5 to 14, come to Kamloops. The member for provincial organization that educates and raises aware- Kamloops–North Thompson and his staff will help ness about elder abuse issues. you find rooms. We'd like to welcome some 2,300 ath- [1400] letes, and you along with them, and many more visitors Locally, in my own constituency, the Society for — from Nunavut, the Northwest Territories, Yukon, Prevention of Cruelty to Seniors, or SPCS, was formed Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta and of course British after the tragic case of theA lbos, who were separated and Columbia. subsequently died away from each other. The group's These athletes, the best in their age groups, bring a commitment is to make sure elderly couples are not high level of competition to the games. B.C.'s athletes split up but in fact can live with the dignity they deserve. will be aiming to win the tenth consecutive Western They continue to be advocates in our region, ensuring Canada Games trophy as the top-performing province seniors and their families have the support they need or territory in the games. when dealing with difficult situations. Kamloops, of course, is the tournament capital of Here on the south Island there are a number of groups, Canada — it may well soon be the tournament capital of including the Saanich Peninsula Health Association the world — with extensive experience in hosting suc- and the Old Age Pensioners Organization, Branch 191, cessful top-notch tournament and sporting events. It's a Greater Victoria group. Both of these groups have been community that achieves excellence every time out, and advocating for a public inquiry into the suspicious death it's the ideal host for these games. of a local senior, Kathleen Palamarek. In this case the We're anticipating a $7 million economic impact suspected abuse was due to overmedication, and the from hosting these games, and they will leave a legacy family needs answers. of sport development, trained volunteers, community As elected representatives we need to work together to infrastructure and pride. The games are a massive under- ensure elder abuse is not tolerated and is, in fact, eradi- taking — 12 different venues; up to 2,500 volunteers; ten cated, and that seniors alive today don't have to suffer days packed with sports, arts, culture, entertainment the same tragedies as the Albos and Kathleen Palamarek and community spirit. It's indeed a very big job to pull and their families. all of this off, but the people of Kamloops and the host society are certainly up to the task. We're proud of our CONTRIBUTIONS OF VOLUNTEERS track record for hosting games in the tournament capital of Canada. D. Hayer: What truly makes a community are the I'd really like you all to come to them. Join us in the people who contribute to it, the ones who help bring us Thompson valleys in August for the best-ever Western all together, the ones who generate pride and ensure inclu- Canada Summer Games. siveness for all. Without volunteers, elders would not be as well cared for, pioneers would not be remembered, heroes ELDER ABUSE AWARENESS would not be honoured. For that matter, many of us in this House may not have been elected had it not been for the K. Conroy: As one ages, one is faced with all kinds of ex- hard work of many volunteers. The assistance provided to periences, some wonderful and some not so wonderful. British Columbians by those volunteers is priceless. One of the worst problems, which is often a painful The value of directors, executives, volunteers and secret, is that of elder abuse. June 15 marks World Elder members of non-profit societies is worth more than 7854 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
gold. I doubt our economy could ever generate the funding Once again, my sincere thanks to everyone I have to adequately pay for the services that volunteers give from mentioned here and many more for their dedication and their hearts. I am proud to regularly meet with many of the hard work for making our community a very welcome groups who are driven by contributions of volunteerism. place for everyone. We are fortunate to have dozens and dozens of those great volunteer organizations in my community. Some of the Mr. Speaker: I remind members to make sure their volunteer groups in my community include Fraser Heights cell phones are turned off. Community Association, Port Kells Community Association, [1405] Tynehead Community Association, Guildford Community Partners Society, Fleetwood Community Association, Ro- GRADUATES FROM SCHOOLS tary Club of Surrey Fraser Heights, Rotary Club of Surrey- IN BURNABY NORTH AREA Guildford, Rotary Club of Cloverdale, North Surrey Lions Club, Guildford Lions Club, Royal Canadian Legions R. Lee: Summer is here, and students all across B.C. of Whalley and Cloverdale, Indian Ex-Servicemen Society are completing another year of studies. Last week I had of B.C. and Dogwood Anti-Poverty Society. the honour to attend three graduation ceremonies for The list of organizations and individuals who help three schools in my constituency: Burnaby Central, others as devoted volunteers is almost endless in my Burnaby North and Alpha Secondary. community. I am certain that in every region of this I was also privileged to present scholarship awards to province the worth of volunteerism is boundless. I ask three students, one from each school, making their de- the House to join me in offering a heartfelt thanks to the parture from high school just a little bit sweeter. These hundreds and thousands of British Columbians who so students are a great example of what academic excel- generously volunteer their time and skills to help and lence means. They have demonstrated good citizenship support other British Columbians. in the school and the community, and participated in community services and volunteer work. They are also COMMUNITY RESPONSE TO FIRE interested in public administration. IN BURNABY-EDMONDS AREA I'm sure Karen Chan, Eric Xu and Hannah Lin will continue to exceed expectations well beyond Burnaby R. Chouhan: I am pleased to talk about the spirit of Central, Burnaby North and Alpha Secondary. cooperation in my constituency, Burnaby-Edmonds. I'm also impressed by the drive of students like Trevor About a month ago an apartment fire left over a dozen de Zeeuw from Burnaby Central, one of the 18 teens families homeless. Many of these families were new im- from around the world chosen to participate in the migrants, low-income with young children. Some of these people did not have any relatives or friends to Students On Ice educational expedition to the Arctic; depend on, but they were lucky to live in a commun- Kevin Hua, the Governor General gold-medal recipient ity which is known for its generosity and compassion. from Alpha; and Paula and Peggy Hsien, twin sisters Without delay, they were helped by a network of dedi- from Burnaby North who have won numerous awards cated service providers, volunteers and all levels of in table tennis and who have excelled academically. government to provide them with housing and other It's very inspiring to be able to meet and honour these forms of assistance. students. With young people like this, B.C. is truly I am proud to have such dedicated community members facing a bright future. I encourage all members to join and organizations in my constituency and would like to take me in acknowledging the impressive achievements of these this opportunity to thank them for their efforts. They were: students. All the best to every student who is graduating Doreen George, Edmonds Community School coordin- this year. This will be a memorable year. ator; Maggie Marquardt, outreach worker; Sara Shaw, Go, Canucks, go! South Burnaby Neighbourhood House; Brian Cousineau, city of Burnaby; Cheryl Stogren, Progressive Housing; Oral Questions Wanda Mulholland, task force on homelessness; Burnaby Fire Fighters Charitable Society; Peter Julian, MP; SACHI COST OF GOVERNMENT INFORMATION Foundation; Deer Lake community church; Salvation ON HARMONIZED SALES TAX Army; Helping Families in Need; Ministry of Social Development; B.C. Housing; and Minister Responsible A. Dix: Yesterday the Minister of Finance finally ac- for Housing. knowledged that his $5 million Stickman campaign was a Also many thanks to Laarni de los Reyes, my constitu- one-sided, partisan affair.H e claimed that the government ency assistant, for her hard work on this file. She went wouldn't offer any arguments in favour of the PST-GST above and beyond her duties to ensure that families re- system because — and I'm quoting him precisely: "There ceived all the help they needed. isn't any positive to the PST. There just isn't." Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7855
Interjections. A. Dix: Well, I think I'll read that again. Former Finance Minister Carole Taylor, a B.C. Liberal Mr. Speaker: Members. Finance Minister, when she was describing what the Just wait a second. Premier used to describe as the sneaky tactics of all of Continue, Member. her colleagues, said: "This particular tax takes the tax off of business. It takes $1.8 billion off of business, and it A. Dix: Will the Premier finally acknowledge what puts it on consumers." her Minister of Finance acknowledged yesterday — that It did it last year. It's going to do it this year. It's a $3.6 the B.C. Liberal Party is using public funds to sell its billion tax increase on families. That's what the former HST to the public? Minister of Finance says — a $3.6 billion tax increase on families. Hon. C. Clark: I'm glad the question came very What did the B.C. Liberal Party themselves say? What clearly at the end, because the Minister of Finance and I did they say? They said the HST "would extend the PST were engaged in a little argument about which of us was tax base to a broader range of goods and services…. This going to get to answer this HST question today. We have is a major concern." It's major because it means a huge been looking forward to the opposition raising the HST number of items go from zero percent — that's zero per- in this Legislature for a long time. And why? cent — to 7 percent, and those are paid by B.C. families. We've been looking forward to the chance to be able If the Premier is so confident in her position, why to debate whether or not we will have a 12 percent tax, doesn't she stop her political party, the B.C. Liberal Party, which, of course, is what they will support, or whether from using public funds to make their case with an ad we will have a 10 percent tax in British Columbia; campaign that's unacceptable to British Columbians? whether or not we will be fairer to families or whether or not we will be unfair to families, which is what they are Hon. C. Clark: Well, the opposition's coming up with arguing for; whether or not we will rebalance the taxa- a whole new argument in favour of their 12 percent tax. tion between business and individuals; whether or not I'm delighted. I'm delighted to see these arguments — we are going to make it easier for families to get ahead or finally, on the last day of the Legislature — come to the whether we're going to follow that age-old NDP recipe House. I'm delighted they're finally raising the HST in and keep making it harder and harder for the working the Legislature. It gives us a chance to talk about whether people of British Columbia to get ahead. or not British Columbians…. I'm delighted the NDP have finally found the courage to raise this question in the Legislature, and I'll look for- Interjections. ward to a couple more. Mr. Speaker: Just take your seat for a second. Interjections. Continue, Premier.
Mr. Speaker: Members. Hon. C. Clark: It gives us a chance to talk about It's going to be one of those days. whether or not…. Who in this House is in favour of a 12 The Leader of the Opposition has a supplemental. percent tax, or a 2 percent tax reduction on everything? [1410] Who is it in this House that's in favour of a 12 percent tax? A. Dix: You know, there are some Liberals who Who is it in this House that doesn't care about fair- can bring balance to this debate. For example, former ness for families, who isn't interested in helping families Finance Minister Carole Taylor said: "This particular tax get a little bit ahead — although we all know that fam- takes the tax off business.I t takes $1.8 billion off of busi- ilies are increasingly feeling like they're struggling? Who ness, and it puts it on consumers." is it in this House that doesn't want to address the issues Then there's the B.C. Liberal Party itself. of the independent panel report? Who is it in this House that wants to ignore the views Interjections. of the 300,000 British Columbians that we talked to in the course of this HST consultation, the largest public A. Dix: Oh, you know they want to shout that stuff down. consultation in British Columbia's history? Of course, it's the New Democrats. It's the New Interjections. Democrats who have their ears closed. While they want a 12 percent tax, the people on this side of the House and Mr. Speaker: Member, just take your seat for a second. British Columbians are saying it's time to shelve the 12. Members. Continue, Member. Interjections. 7856 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
Mr. Speaker: Members. Let's take a look at the campaign on the referendum The Leader of the Opposition has a further supplemental. itself. Allowing the pro-HST side to run a campaign with no spending limits, with no disclosure requirements, isn't A. Dix: Well, a $3 billion tax increase on families. fair or unbiased. This is the people ofB ritish Columbia's Who would believe that's good for families? Perhaps the referendum, not the B.C. Liberals' referendum. Shifting Premier. the goalposts to give one side the advantage shows com- [1415] plete disrespect for the voters of this province. Perhaps it's the Premier who complains that we're not My question is to the Premier: why won't you impose debating HST in the House and then brings in closure spending limits and disclosure requirements right now, to stop the debate. I thought the Premier might have today. learned in Vancouver–Point Grey that it's a good idea to [1420] show up for the debate. I guess there's no debate when you hire an animated Stickman to put forward your Hon. K. Falcon: You know, one thing you never hear position. from the NDP opposite is.... They're not pointing out Will the minister finally cancel that ad campaign and that there are any errors in those facts, in that information ensure that that money goes where it belongs — to B.C. campaign. classrooms, to B.C. hospitals, to people with develop- All you hear is that they are uncomfortable with those mental disabilities? Will she shelve the campaign now? facts, and I can understand why they are uncomfortable with those facts. The entire time we've been in session, I Hon. C. Clark: I don't know why the NDP is so scared have been waiting, sitting and waiting, listening to all of of information. They've been complaining there hasn't their impassioned speeches about why they don't like been enough all these many months, and now all they the HST, but I have yet to hear a single argument about complain about is that there's too much information get- why it makes sense to go back to a 12 percent PST plus ting out there. GST — not a single cogent argument out of that side. I don't say we shelve the campaign. I say we shelve Perhaps it is because nine of the ten fastest-growing the 12, which I think is what British Columbians will economies in the world — including China, India, also support. Taiwan and Singapore — all have value-added taxes like We need to be fair to families. We need to make sure the HST. But I note with interest that the one country that we're rebalancing the tax burden, and we need to that doesn't, the one country that they're always fond of make sure it's a little bit easier for people to try and get quoting, which still has a retail sales tax today, is Cuba. ahead in an economy where it's been really tough for a lot of people to get ahead. Interjections. I don't think British Columbians are going to buy NDP math. He stands up, and he talks about the billions Mr. Speaker: Members. of dollars. Will they believe the math from an opposition The member has a supplemental. leader who produced eight deficit budgets in a row? Will they believe an opposition leader who was there in the C. James: Let's look at the B.C. Liberals' campaign for Premier's office when they raised taxes to the highest in this referendum. No spending limits. A referendum bal- Canada? lot in the summer. And $5 million of taxpayer money It is no surprise that the NDP want higher taxes. They spent on biased advertising — no disclosure. This is don't want to have a lower 10 percent tax. They want to unprecedented. have a higher 12 percent tax. It's no surprise when it's My question, again, is to the Premier. When will the the same group of people that burdened families across Premier and the B.C. Liberals wake up, recognize this British Columbia with the highest income taxes not just is the public's referendum and stop playing games with in Canada but anywhere across this great continent. the public? Now, this is my last chance to answer a question on this topic from the leader. I do hope the next questioner Hon. K. Falcon: Just for once could the NDP do their gets up and gives the Minister of Finance the courtesy of homework and get their story straight? They were just asking him a question about whether or not, indeed, we telling us a while back that they wanted to move the should shelve the 12. referendum forward. The Premier followed through on that commitment and moved the referendum date C. James: This Premier has proven once again why forward. the public doesn't believe anything the B.C. Liberals say, Now, if they had done their homework, they would especially on the HST. It's now very clear to everyone in have known that moving it forward required moving the public that this Premier has spent her time coming it over to the Referendum Act to ensure that we could up with new slogans instead of standing up for families. actually have an early referendum. If they read the Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7857
Referendum Act, they would understand what the rules will be ahead when it comes to this tax than they would are around the Referendum Act. have been under the system that the NDP is advocating. The fact of the matter is that this Premier has kept the We do need to make sure that taxes are fair for families. commitment to move the date forward. We have kept I know that that isn't an issue you will find at the heart our commitment to make sure that the public has factual in- of NDP platform documents. I know that fairness for formation to ensure they can make an informed choice. families isn't part of a record that includes the highest They are upset because the facts are uncomfortable. income taxes of anywhere across this continent. I know They are trying to argue that instead of a 10 percent that fairness for families isn't part of a government HST with an efficient tax system used by 140 countries that had a record of raising small business taxes by 80 around the world, they want to go back to an inefficient, percent. dual-tax system at 12 percent, with a GST and PST. That I know that's not the kind of fairness for families that makes no sense to anybody. they're talking about, but we truly are talking about fair- ness for families. It is interesting, as the Finance Minister PROCESS FOR pointed out, that every time they do have the temerity REFERENDUM ON HARMONIZED SALES TAX to get up and talk about the HST in the Legislature, they never talk about the reality of the tax. B. Ralston: No surprise that the Finance Minister I hope that the critic will get up and offer us next his would choose the example of China. The minister is on defence for why he wants so badly to go back to the PST- record as being an admirer of Chinese democracy for GST. some time. The minister talked about the referendum and the Interjections. Premier's commitment on the provincial referendum. When she was running for the leadership…. Mr. Speaker: Members. The member has a supplemental. Interjections. B. Ralston: The Premier would rather do anything Mr. Speaker: Members. than talk about her broken promise. She promised not Just take your seat for a second. to sell B.C. Rail in the year 2000. She promised…. Continue, Member. [1425] Interjections.
B. Ralston: When the Premier was running as a B. Ralston: A very clear commitment. leadership candidate for the leadership of her party, she She promised to conduct this referendum in the same promised, in connection with the referendum, that it manner as a provincial election. Why doesn't she address would be conducted in the same manner as a provincial the reason why she broke those promises and tell the election. When she was in a position to make that decision, public why they should trust her ever again? she promptly went back on her word. Unlike a provincial election, there are no spending Hon. C. Clark: You know, when the critic goes back limits for HST proponents, nor are there any disclosure that far, he is tempting fate. He is tempting fate because…. requirements. Perhaps a little bit more of that Chinese And here's the thing…. example that the Minister of Finance was speaking of. It is the public's referendum, not a B.C. Liberal donors' Interjections. referendum. Can the Premier explain why she's adding to the already high level of distrust of the B.C. Liberal Mr. Speaker: Continue, Premier. government by conducting the referendum in this way? Hon. C. Clark: Here is the fate that he is tempting. Hon. C. Clark: I'm delighted to get up and speak to When he asks a question like that, it's entirely possible the opposition again on this issue. As I've said a number that the Minister of Education might not be able to of times, we want to make sure that the HST is fair for stay in his seat and might have to get up and talk about British Columbians. We want to make sure that we're something like the fast ferries. But we'll stay away from rebalancing the taxation burden between business and that today. families. I'll do my best to answer the question. We are doing what The independent panel told us that it wasn't fair the we can to try and make sure that the HST is fairer for way it was. They told us that families would be, on average, families. That's been my commitment all along. We want $350 behind, so we're fixing that. We're going to a 10 to make sure in this referendum that British Columbians percent tax, which will mean that every single family have the information that they need to be able to make a 7858 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
good decision, a well-informed decision. Whatever decision the University of British Columbia to conduct a review that is, we will accept their verdict. of the indemnity policy to see how it is that it expanded [1430] from civil proceedings to criminal matters in the 1990s But for my part — and I am unashamed to say this; and beyond. We want to see what the results of that review I've been saying this for over a year now — I will be voting are, and we're looking forward to that. in favour of the HST. The new, improved HST is going to be much fairer Mr. Speaker: The member has a supplemental. for families. Every family in British Columbia, with a 2 percent tax cut, is going to be further ahead than they J. Kwan: The current indemnity review does not pro- would be under the tax that the NDP is advocating — a vide Dr. Toope the mandate to investigate the corruption 12 percent PST-GST. I don't think British Columbians scandal. Dr. Toope has not been directed to investigate want to go back to it, but we'll see what happens as a result the $6 million payoff, and the Premier knows it. The of the referendum. Premier was in cabinet when the B.C. Rail went down. She likes to hear herself talk, so let me just quote her, PAYMENT OF LEGAL FEES from the year 2000. IN B.C. RAIL COURT CASE AND INDEMNITY POLICY REVIEW Interjections.
J. Kwan: In October of last year the Premier said, on Mr. Speaker: Members. the Liberal B.C. Rail corruption scandal: "There are out- standing questions the government must answer. For J. Kwan: She said: "We're not going to sell B.C. Rail." heaven's sake, the public has the right to know what She was in government when the B.C. Liberals went those answers are." But just a few months later the back on their election promise to not sell B.C. Rail, and Premier did another one of her classic flip-flops. The $6 she was very, very close to the scandal corruption case million B.C. Rail plea bargain is "not something I intend — very close. If she expects British Columbians to have to reconsider." She further says: "It's a decision that was faith in her ability to govern and to have a clean rec- made, and it's not something that I'll be revisiting." ord on the B.C. Rail corruption deal, will she direct Dr. Funny how that is. She was curious about the plea Stephen Toope in writing to investigate the $6 million bargain when she was a talk-show host, but now that payout as part of her review? If not, why not? she's Premier and has the power to do something about it — poof! — that curiosity is gone. Hon. B. Penner: We can't turn the date back and put My question to the Premier: was her quest for the a different stamp on the decision that was made. The truth just empty words, just like the promise not to buy Leader of the Opposition might choose to do that, but votes on the HST? that's not our choice. [1435] Hon. B. Penner: Well, this issue has been canvassed We do want to find out if there's a way we can better thoroughly, more than four hours…. shape the policy for the future. To quote from the terms of reference, which are publicly available but apparently Interjections. have not been read by the member asking the question, Mr. Toope is asked to do the following: "This review is to Mr. Speaker: Members. consider the rationale for the policy, the history of the Just take your seat. development of the policy, how it has been applied in Continue, Attorney. the past and the need for indemnity arrangements from a public administration perspective." Hon. B. Penner: This issue has been canvassed I suggest the member take the time to find the terms thoroughly, for at least four hours, maybe more, during of reference, which are available publicly on the Ministry the estimates debate of the Ministry of Attorney General of Attorney General website for all to see. and another hour and a half or so during estimates debate for the Minister of Finance. I understand that it's also Interjections. been canvassed during estimates debate for the Premier. This is how the opposition chooses to spend their time, Mr. Speaker: Members. Members. and that's fine. We have made it clear that we have concerns with H. Lali: One minute two accused Liberal insiders what happened. We want to make sure that taxpayers' are saying that the B.C. Liberal corruption scandal goes interests are better protected in the future. That is why much higher into the upper echelons of the Liberal gov- we have retained the services of Mr. Stephen Toope at ernment. The next minute they plead guilty and take the Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7859
fall because the Liberals threw $6 million of hush money I'll also just add — that's my letter to the Prime Minister; at them to end their trial just before Gary Collins, a former I'll table it when I sit down — an appeal to the members Liberal minister, was to take the stand. of the opposition as well. The members of their party in It stinks, hon. Speaker. Everybody knows it stinks, and Ottawa may not be so excited about B.C. getting its fair the Premier knows it stinks. Even the Premier knows it share in the House of Commons. Indeed, their federal stinks, and that's why she herself had asked: "Why did leader hasn't expressed unqualified support. In fact, if the Crown offer the plea deal in the first place, and why anything, he's been unsupportive of British Columbia re- did they feel that they needed to throw in the $6 million ceiving its fair share in the House of Commons. indemnity in order to get the accused to sign it?" So I would ask the members of the opposition to do To the Premier: why are you refusing to seek the truth all that they can to lobby their brothers and sisters in about the B.C. Liberal corruption scandal and the $6 million Ottawa. I know the Leader of the Opposition speaks payout? Is it because you're afraid that other B.C. Liberals French. It will be useful in approaching his many Quebec will be implicated in this Liberal corruption scandal? colleagues in Ottawa to make sure that British Columbia gets its fair share. Hon. B. Penner: As has become evident, reading The federal government wants to do this.I hope that the skills are not a strong suit for the opposition, for if they opposition, this opposition, can find a way to persuade their were, they might have read the following article in the colleagues and the opposition in the House of Commons Globe and Mail, February 17, 2011, with the headline: to vote… "Files Exonerate Elected Liberals in B.C. Rail Scandal." The first paragraph: "An exhaustive police investiga- Interjections. tion into political corruption surrounding the sale of B.C. Rail found no evidence of wrongdoing by former Mr. Speaker: It's a ministerial statement. B.C. Liberal cabinet minister" — now the Premier — "or any other elected official, according to documents Hon. C. Clark: …in favour of this legislation, should obtained by the Globe and Mail." it be introduced. Perhaps it's time for the opposition to offer an unquali- I'd like to table this letter now. fied apology to all the people whose reputations they besmirched within the safety of this legislative chamber. Mr. Speaker: Just to remind members, it's a minis- If they have allegations to make and they're so confident terial statement. The Leader of the Opposition has time in what they're doing, take it into the hallway and take to respond. your chances with the results. A. Dix: We all know that when very serious letters like [End of question period.] this are sent to the Prime Minister, letters whose first sentence is "media reports suggest" and second sentence Ministerial Statements begins "if accurate," those ones he takes particularly seriously. B.C. REPRESENTATION For years I have advocated for B.C. to get its fair share IN HOUSE OF COMMONS of representation in the House of Commons — for years I have. I say it's about time, and even this proposal Hon. C. Clark: I rise to inform the House that I've sent doesn't bring us to that level. B.C. should have its full a letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper, and I'll read it, share of representation in the House of Commons, and if I can, into the record now. we should have our full share of representation in the "Dear Prime Minister Harper, Upper House. "Media reports suggest that the government of Canada will be Currently, as the members of the House know…. introducing legislation to increase the number of seats in the House of Commons for British Columbia. This move to adequately I'm not going to waste the time of this House with silly reflect British Columbia's size at the federal level would be an partisan statements like the one made by the Premier extremely positive development. of the province. I think we in British Columbia should "I recognize that this was a commitment your government argue — when we have one senator for every 700,000 made in the last election, and I'm pleased to see that you and your government intend to move this initiative forward in order that citizens and other provinces have one senator for every the new seats can be in place for the 2015 election. 30,000 citizens — to see the abolition of the Senate and "I look forward to working with your government and the Hon. fair representation for British Columbia in the House of Tim Uppal, the Minister of State, Democratic Reform, as you Commons. That's what we advocate on this side of the move forward with this important initiative. House — serious positions on serious issues. [1440] The issue of representation in theH ouse of Commons "On behalf of all British Columbians, thank you for taking these steps to make the House of Commons more democratically is a fundamental one. We in B.C. over time and because representative of Canada's regions." of circumstances have been shortchanged, and that has 7860 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
to change. I find it wrong. I just find it wrong that the Children and Youth, the Select Standing Committee on Premier of British Columbia, rather than trying to speak Finance and Government Services, the Select Standing for British Columbia, would attempt to make this a vicious, Committee on Legislative Initiatives, the Select Stand- nasty little partisan issue. ing Committee on Public Accounts, the Select Standing I think what British Columbia wants is a Premier who Committee on Health, a Special Committee to Appoint will speak for British Columbia, who will speak for our a Representative for Children and Youth and a Special representation in the House of Commons, who will Committee on Cosmetic Pesticides. speak for our representation in the Upper House, who I move that those motions be dealt with now. will defend the interests of British Columbia — who [That the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth be appointed to be empowered to foster greater awareness will do this and lead British Columbia to a better future. and understanding among legislators and the public of the BC That's what they want, and that's what they're going to child welfare system, and in particular to: get soon. 1. be the committee that receives and reviews the annual ser- vice plan from the Representative for Children and Youth (the "Representative") that includes a statement of goals and Interjections. identifies specific objectives and performance measures that will be required to exercise the powers and perform the func- Mr. Speaker: Members. tions and duties of the Representative during the fiscal year; 2. be the committee to which the Representative reports, at least annually; Tabling Documents 3. refer to the Representative for investigation the critical injury or death of a child; and Hon. K. Falcon: I respectfully present the guarantees 4. receive and consider all reports and plans delivered by the and indemnities authorized and issued report for the Representative to the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. fiscal year ended March 31, 2010, in accordance with the In addition to the powers previously conferred upon Select Financial Administration Act's section 72(8). Standing Committees of the House, the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth be empowered: Hon. H. Bloy: I have the honour to present the multi- (a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters culturalism report for 2009-10. referred to the Committee; [1445] (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next - fol S. Hammell: Mr. Speaker, dare I rise? lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and (d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee; Petitions and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case S. Hammell: I rise to present a petition from citizens who may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and are… upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Mr. Speaker: I think you've got to worry about your own Whip on the cell phone. [Laughter.] [That the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services be empowered: 1. to examine, inquire into and make recommendations with S. Hammell: …opposed to the imposition of the respect to the budget consultation paper prepared by the wireless smart meters. Minister of Finance in accordance with section 2 of the Budget Transparency and Accountability Act and, in particular, to: Hon. R. Coleman: With leave, I rise to table the terms (a) conduct public consultations across British Columbia on proposals and recommendations regarding the provincial of reference for some of the select standing committees budget and fiscal policy for the coming fiscal year by of the Legislature. any means the committee considers appropriate, including but not limited to public meetings, telephone and electronic Leave granted. means; (b) Prepare a report no later than November 15, 2011 on the results of those consultations; and Motions Without Notice 2. (a) to consider and make recommendations on the annual reports, rolling three-year service plans and budgets of the TERMS OF REFERENCE for special following statutory officers: (i) auditor General and SELECT STANDING COMMITTEES (ii) chief Electoral Officer (iii) Conflict of Interest Commissioner Hon. R. Coleman: I've given my colleague the opposition (iv) Information and Privacy Commissioner House Leader a copy of these motions in advance. These (v) Merit Commissioner (vi) Ombudsperson motions are the direction and terms of reference for the (vii) Police Complaint Commissioner following committees: the Select Standing Committee on (viii) Representative for Children and Youth; and Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7861
(b) to examine, inquire into and make recommendations In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the with respect to other matters brought to the Committee's Select Standing Committee on Health, the Committee shall be attention by any of the Officers listed in 2 (a) above. empowered: 3. The Select StandingC ommittee on Finance and Government (a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees Services shall be the committee referred to in sections 19, and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters 20, 21 and 23 of the Auditor General Act and that the per- referred to the Committee; formance report in section 22 of the Auditor General Act be (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, referred to the committee. during the recess after prorogation until the next - fol In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services, (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and the committee shall be empowered: (d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the (a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees Committee; and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following referred to the Committee; any adjournment or at the next following Session, as the case (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of during the recess after prorogation until the next - fol the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] (d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee; and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following [That a Special Committee be appointed to unanimously any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case recommend to the House the appointment of a Representative may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of for Children and Youth, pursuant to section 2 of the the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and Representative for Children and Youth Act, and that the said upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall Special Committee shall have the powers of a Select Standing present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Committee and in addition is empowered: (a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters [That the Select StandingC ommittee on Legislative Initiatives be referred to the Committee; empowered to examine and inquire into all such matters and (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, things as shall be referred to them by this House or pursuant to the during the recess after prorogation until the next - fol Recall and Initiative Act, as the case may be, and to report from time lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; to time their observations and opinions thereon, with power to send (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and for persons, papers, and records, as the Committee requires.] (d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the Committee; [1. That the reports of theA uditor General of British Columbia and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following deposited with the Speaker of the Legislative Assembly during any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case the Third Session of the thirty-ninth parliament be deemed may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of referred to the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts, the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and with the exception of the report referred to in section 22 of upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall the Auditor General Act which is referred to the Select present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services. 2. That the Select Standing Committee on Public Accounts be [That a Special Committee on Cosmetic Pesticides be the committee referred to in sections 2, 6, 7, 10, 13 and 14 of appointed to examine, inquire into and make recommendations the Auditor General Act. with respect to the elimination of the unnecessary use of pesticides In addition to the powers previously conferred upon the Select in British Columbia and to conduct consultations on this issue Standing Committee on Public Accounts, the Committee be with the public and key stakeholders, by any means the Special empowered: Committee considers appropriate. (a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees Without limiting the generality of the foregoing to consider, and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters the Special Committee shall specifically consider: referred to the Committee; 1. The scope of any ban on the sale and use of pesticides, (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, including those used solely for cosmetic purposes; and during the recess after prorogation until the next - fol 2. any appropriate exemptions and restrictions on the sale and lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; use, which may apply. (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and The Special Committee shall provide recommendations to (d) to retain personnel as required to assist the Committee; the Legislative Assembly with respect to the development and shall report to the House as soon as possible, or following and implementation of legislative provisions regarding the any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case unnecessary use of pesticides. may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of The Special Committee so appointed shall have all the powers the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and of a Select Standing Committee and is also empowered: upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall (a) to appoint of their number, one or more subcommittees present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the Committee; [That the Select Standing Committee on Health be empowered to: (b) to sit during a period in which the House is adjourned, 1. examine the projected impact on the provincial health care during the recess after prorogation until the next - fol system of demographic trends to the year 2036 on a sustainable lowing Session and during any sitting of the House; health care system for British Columbians. (c) to adjourn from place to place as may be convenient; and 2. outline potential alternative strategies to mitigate the impact (d) to retain such personnel as required to assist the of the baby boomers on the provincial health system, and Committee; 3. identify current public levels of acceptance toward the and shall report to the House as soon as possible or following alternative strategies. any adjournment, or at the next following Session, as the case 7862 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
may be; to deposit the original of its reports with the Clerk of Then finally, we're going to go to page 21 just now, the Legislative Assembly during a period of adjournment and section 2 of a bill that's before us that's 495 pages long. upon resumption of the sittings of the House, the Chair shall present all reports to the Legislative Assembly.] This treaty is getting caught up in the pathos of thisH ouse, as we saw today — probably the worst demonstration Motions approved. that even this House has experienced of how imbecilic debate is becoming. It's little wonder that voters walk Orders of the Day away from us when they see this kind of nonsense go on. Here we are, because of that kind of stuff, truncated into Hon. R. Coleman: This afternoon in this House page 21 of 495 pages with 35 minutes left for debate.A gain, I we will start out with committee stage of Bill 11, Yale argue that I think there's a more reasonable way to do this. First Nation Final Agreement Act, followed by commit- I wish to read a statement into the record. There's a bit tee stage of Bill 8, the International Interests in Mobile of length to the statement, but there's a reason for read- Equipment (Aircraft Equipment) Act, then followed by ing it in, because it best captures my conversations with Bill 13, intituled Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment the Stó:lô. I do give my apologies to Chief Robert Hope Act (No. 2), 2011, and Bill 15, intituled Municipalities that I have not had similar conversations with Yale. It Enabling and Validating Act (No. 4), all of which are in just has not happened. committee stage this afternoon. This is a statement by Hugh Brody, who holds the In the little House, in Committee A, we will be finishing Canada Research Chair in Aboriginal Studies at the the estimates of the Office of the Premier, and then we University of the Fraser Valley, is an associate at the Scott will go into the Ministry of Energy and Mines' housing Polar Research Institute at the University of Cambridge and portion of debates. author of Maps and Dreams and The Other Side of Eden. He states: "The trouble with the Yale agreement is that it both does and Committee of the Whole House does not pay due attention to the history. The rights of a First Nation to its resources is, of course, a reading in history and is Bill 11 — Yale First Nation built on detailed accounts of how the land and river were known Final Agreement Act and used in the past. But many of the people who know and use (continued) that set of fishing sites have been dispersed. "Guided by ideas about farming as the right way to live, gov- ernment forced families to move from the rugged lands of the TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on canyon to the wide alluvial valley downstream. Many Stó:lô were Bill 11; L. Reid in the chair. resettled in the agriculture region of the Fraser Valley around Chilliwack. But the people who moved away from the fishery to live still went to the canyon to fish, to learn, to pray and, in some The committee met at 2:49 p.m. cases, to be buried. "Attachments to those sites did not just fade away. The resource On section 2 (continued). did not simply slide into the hands of those who lived near to it. Every fishing season, families go back to their sites to catch the B. Simpson: I would like to recognize the presence of food they need and find the heritage they identify with. "At the moment it looks as though the Yale agreement will Chief Robert Hope and any other members of the Yale entrench the rights of the people who live in or near Yale and First Nation that are present. I do want to again restate my deny or reduce the rights of those who live outside that commun- desire to be understood in my questions of the Yale treaty ity. This is to create or to aggravate tension and hostilities in the as process questions, not the question of Yale's right to wider area. It is to consolidate and worsen a historical wrong that came from the implementation of the Indian Act, the splitting of that treaty. I hope that they will be taken in that spirit. peoples into small bands on scattered reserves and the relocation [1450] of people to places that governments thought would be right for With respect to questions of process, there are three them. issues that I'm canvassing here. First, of course, is whether "It is also to launch argument and legal actions that would drain resources and even further erode relations within and between or not we have enabled a B.C. Treaty Commission process, First Nations of the area. whether it's defaulting to a first-past-the-post system be- "Historical damage has come from measures that failed to cause of resource issues, because of preferred tables and acknowledge deep needs for heritage or links to land and re- so on and whether or not we need to rethink that. sources. By pressing ahead with this agreement, the government Secondly, is it time for British Columbia, now that we've could yet again be proceeding without due regard to those needs and links without addressing the painful results of history. This got three treaties under our belt and this one proceeding, would make things worse, not better, for the Stó:lô community to really examine the best positioning of overlapping as a whole." claims? Do we want to force litigation post-treaty, or As Mr. Brody and others point out, including the do we want to look at reconstituting the B.C. Treaty Stó:lô, this final agreement will lead to litigation. This Commission, giving it a renewed mandate, renewed final agreement will lead to potentially active protests resources, so that overlapping claims issues can be done in an area that has already been in dispute and suffered in advance of treaty like other jurisdictions do? from active protests. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7863
My question to the minister is on clause 2, and it's not wish to have people accessing that reserve land, they a desire to understand what proceeds now on section can certainly have that enforced. In fact, in the treaty, 2.4.7, "Indemnities." there are access provisions that ensure that both the pub- [1455] lic and the Stó:lô have reasonable access through a system It indicates that the Yale First Nation must indemnify or agreement that will be developed at a later date. Canada and British Columbia from "any and all damages, This does not have to lead to litigation.I n fact, it's our costs excluding fees and disbursements of solicitors," etc., for expectation that it will lead to further negotiation. We any action or omission by Canada before the effective date. have continued to actively engage with Stó:lô. We will Then 2.4.8: A" Party who is the subject of a suit, action, continue to do that. It is our expectation that we will claim, proceeding or demand that may give rise to a be able to negotiate a resolution to the issues that have requirement…." It talks about payment to that party caused them concern. pursuant to indemnity. [1500] I'm not clear. Again, as the opposition critic had indi- With respect to protests. I have grown up in the Fraser cated before, this is legal language that I'm not clear Valley. There have been active protests for decades with about, because I do understand we may be looking at a respect to these issues. There continue to be active pro- decade-long legal battle that may take the issue of title tests. Those are not the result of the treaty and will not to the court. Taking the issue of title to the court is the be the result of the treaty. explicit reason why treaties are entered into and why we To the specific question. The member references sec- have a B.C. Treaty Commission process. tion 2.4.7 and section 2.4.8. This is standard language Could the minister please explain if it is the Yale First that's included in any treaty. It's not unique to Yale. Nation that has to bear the brunt of any claims against The member is misreading the section. It does not this treaty? If not, how does that process work, and who apply, does not reference and is not related to litigation is it that the Stó:lô would lay claim against? that may be brought by Stó:lô. This is Yale indemnifying the parties in the case that a Yale member may decide to Hon. M. Polak: I'll deal with a couple of the earlier parts pursue litigation with respect to Yale treaty rights. of the member's question before I get to the specific question on hand. B. Simpson: Because of a shortage of time…. We have First of all, I want to reiterate. The BCTC process is canvassed back and forth as a fundamental disagree- not a first-past-the-post system. The treaty contains in it, ment in terms of the minister's interpretation of current as do other treaties, contemplation of future treaties that Yale rights versus what the treaty does and what Stó:lô may impact on Yale. So there are ample provisions made, understand. Again, because there isn't a Stó:lô repre- and in fact, there is the assumption made that there will sentative in the House and because we haven't taken this be future treaties and that there will be interaction be- to committee and because committee hasn't taken the tween those treaties and Yale. final agreement out and heard witness from Stó:lô, then We are certainly having greater success in recent years I have no discomfort in attempting to bring Stó:lô into in reaching treaty agreements, and we appreciate the this House. work of the B.C. Treaty Commission. By all accounts, it This is the only time for public debate on this very is working well. Certainly, we're always open to sugges- extensive treaty. I appreciate the minister's clarification tions to try and improve any process, but I have to say of what is meant by "indemnify." The minister has referred that recent evidence — that being the signing of modern to, and I know the opposition critics canvassed this some- day treaties and progress for other First Nations toward what, 2.12, on page 25 — the other aboriginal people. treaty — is, I think, strong evidence that the B.C. Treaty The question here, of course…. As the minister has Commission process is working very well. indicated, the access for Stó:lô now will be by permit, It's also important, again, to emphasize that contrary what the Stó:lô call gatekeeper, and again, there's the to the assertions of the Stó:lô, this treaty does nothing to Fraser itself. There's the Frozen Lakes area. There are damage the section 35 rights of the Stó:lô, and in case of Kuthlalth areas that are contentious. Chief Joseph Hall any disagreement with respect to that or a finding that has indicated to me that he is in agreement with 90 there is some infringement, we have the non-derogation percent of this treaty. They would like some language that clause which protects against that. gives them some clarity and surety around access here. With respect to the learned gentleman's opinion that The minister has pointed a number of times to 2.12 as was shared by the member opposite, I did note that in the way that this will be addressed in the future. Could the the description of the treaty, the person writing it seems minister clarify — we've had a very brief touch on this — to have forgotten that the current status of reserve land what the legal definition of "best efforts" are and who or is that it is completely under the unilateral control of the what entity determines if best efforts have actually been Chief of the Yale First Nation. There are trespass laws achieved? that can be enforced such that if the Yale First Nation did [1505] 7864 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
Hon. M. Polak: I'll walk through a few of the things the questions in the House. I have the documentation that have been raised in this question — first, with re- that Stó:lô has provided to us — the documentation with spect to the idea that a committee would take the treaty respect to the Kuthlalth. They state that Kuthlalth "is a around. Just as in the case of government negotiating national treasure. It contains a unique archaeological collective agreements with parties, one wouldn't then site, the likes of which does not exist anywhere else in take the collective agreement that had been bargained B.C. It is a Stó:lô site and does not belong to the YFN." in good faith around the province with a committee Again, the contention is from the Stó:lô. and then have the public comment on whether or not [1510] government should sign it. Part of bargaining in good faith means that you have I'm sure that the minister and her staff have been a set mandate that you are empowered to bargain with. apprised of this in the ongoing dialogue. This is a Stó:lô We do that with treaties as well. And so not only has contention: "It is objectionable that this treaty proposes there never been a treaty that has been taken around the to hand Kuthlalth over to Yale." I'm just saying that that province in such a manner, but it is unlikely that any is the Stó:lô's contention. government ever would, because of the principles of The minister may have a different interpretation of bargaining that are employed. that, but the interpretation of this, then, becomes a legal Let me hit on a few of the other points that were matter because it's legal language. I don't want to get into raised with respect to the member's contention that an argument with the minister over her interpretation. I'm somehow it is a foregone conclusion that the Yale will representing the Stó:lô's interpretation. have to apply for permits. We canvassed this yesterday, With respect to Frozen Lakes, again, the minister has and I outlined to the member the fact that permitting indicated that the three points of contention that I've is mentioned, as well as other means. It is contemplated raised forward are somehow out of my own imagination. that it is likely that Stó:lô would enter into some type of Here is the Stó:lô's language on Frozen Lakes: "The Stó:lô agreement, whether that be with the Stó:lô Nation as a have used Frozen Lakes area since time immemorial for whole or the Stó:lô families who currently have a rela- their spiritual, cultural and gathering places. This clause tionship with Yale and are continuing with their fishing only contemplates recreational purposes and hunting rights on their land. and fishing. It must be expanded to include other trad- But there is nothing in the treaty that stipulates that the itional activities." Again, the Stó:lô are contending that Stó:lô would have to go through a permit process. That is those are the three areas that they believe are contentious, simply one of the methods listed as a means by which in- need remedy, and they have proposed language to address dividuals might access that land, reasonably requested. that. Kuthlalth. Really, I'm not sure why the member would With respect to the minister's comments about a com- say that this is contentious. It remains with Stó:lô, and mittee on aboriginal relations, I never said that it would we've canvassed that as well. tour the province. I never said that it would open up for Frozen Lakes is not the same in terms of any kind of debate. However, a committee taking a bill, as in other permitting or gatekeeping or permission sought, as the jurisdictions, can actually do a bill, if it was designed as member seems to think. In fact, Frozen Lakes is treated such, in a manner that's fundamentally different from differently. There is free public access. There is no need here. Rather than having the minister filter her staff's for an agreement in order for Stó:lô to be able to access comments, a committee can actually have direct access that land. to staff to answer the questions directly. With respect to best efforts, again, this is within the A committee can also call witnesses. Again, I would non-derogation clause — standard language in every not have to then attempt to represent Stó:lô in this treaty. The best efforts don't refer to best efforts to stop House. We would be able to call Stó:lô to represent the infringement of rights. In fact, the best efforts refer themselves. That's the difference in a committee. The to making best efforts to construct something that would government can still maintain the final agreement is a replace a clause that had been found to be infringing. final agreement. But doing legislation by committee or In the case where there is a clause that is found to be doing estimates by committee is a standard practice in infringing on the section 35 rights of another First Nation, most Westminster…. insofar as that clause was causing an infringement, that The minister is saying no. It's how Ottawa does it. aspect of the clause would no longer be in effect, and Ottawa does it all by committee. In the case of a treaty, it would be up to the parties to make their "best efforts" that may be a different situation, but again, that doesn't — which is a term well-defined in law — to reach an alter- stop this Legislature from doing it that way — not with ation to the clause such that it could be reconstructed. the intent of opening the final agreement up but with the intent of allowing legislators to understand what they're B. Simpson: So to the minister's statements before my saying yes or no to. Quite frankly, at this juncture, as one question, again, it's not the member per se. I'm raising of the MLAs in this House, I don't know what I'm being Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7865
asked to say yes or no to. It's 495 pages, and because this section. I would note in this particular case with the Yale government is truncating debate, we're at page 21. First Nation, 17 years, since 1994, in the treaty process The minister has said on a number of occasions: — a long haul, to say the least. Finally to get to this point "Further negotiation with Stó:lô to resolve this." The where we see the actual meat of a treaty where a First minister has said on a number of occasions that amend- Nation can get out from under the yoke of the Indian ments are possible. The minister has said on a number Act is a big, big deal. It's something that I applaud. of occasions that their hope is that Yale will not be in a I am not a fan of the Indian Act. It is — I have mentioned permitting situation with respect to Stó:lô but will have it before — I think, the only race-based piece of legislation some other agreement. left in the world, and it's not something to be proud of. It I wonder if the minister could state, for the public has been the basis for segregation, and it has been used, I record, what the exact process is that will be embarked think, in a very inappropriate way in this country. It's not on now as we move from the passage of this bill to its a proud part of our history. So it is a big deal to see self- implementation. What is the exact process that Stó:lô can governance coming about for any nation, and I applaud bank on, from this government, to have their particular the Yale First Nation and Chief Hope for the work they did concerns redressed as a result of this final agreement? — and his father before him. It is a big deal. And please be as precise as possible. I disagree with the minister profoundly that somehow the time has been sufficient to cover these 70 sections Hon. M. Polak: First of all, with respect to Frozen just in the bill. Several hours is…. When there has been Lakes, I'll read the passage, because it is written to be no involvement — indeed, not even any notice that the inclusive of the activities that the Stó:lô would wish to bill was coming forward, for anybody in this House — I engage in. I'm sure the member will appreciate that would suggest to your own members, the government from the language. members, that it is problematic. [1515] I was out of the House, I would note, for a moment get- Section 14.7.1 reads: "Yale First Nation will allow rea- ting some information when the minister…. I thank her for sonable public access to Frozen Lakes Land for temporary acknowledging my request to raise with the Premier the im- recreational and non-commercial purposes, including portant issue, I think, of bringing about, empowering the reasonable opportunities for the public to hunt and fish." Standing Committee on Aboriginal Affairs to help deal with There is nothing in that that would restrict in any way some of these issues — as we get through this Legislative the Stó:lô's activities on the land with respect to their Assembly, maybe inadequately for our needs, to pursue all of traditional rights and activities. the issues within this treaty and to scrutinize for the public. When it comes to the process that will unfold now That being said, I still think it's necessary to involve in dealing with the concerns that have been raised by all sides of the House — this is not a partisan thing — so the Stó:lô with respect to the Yale treaty, we have already that the people of British Columbia can know that this been in consultation with Chief Hope, with Chief Joe is being done in an apolitical way and that all British Hall. We have discussions that are being facilitated by Columbians have the ability to celebrate. the B.C. Treaty Commission, and we will continue to This section 3, I'm assuming, is pretty much standard, consult and negotiate in that manner, as we have with based on what we saw in Maa-nulth and Tsawwassen. respect to overlap issues in other areas. I'm getting a nod, so I'm going to go with that. I do have to say, though, Madam Chair, that with re- I have a question — several. FOI — does FOI apply in spect to the time allotted for debate, we have had four treaty? I guess it's a twofold question. hours laid out for debate of this treaty. With respect [1520] to how far we've gotten in the debate, it truly is up to Can members of Yale use the Freedom of Information the member to manage the time for what questions the Act to access information, governance, decision-making member wishes to ask. information in Yale, in the Yale governance structure, or I'm happy to stay with questions that relate to one can people from outside Yale use freedom of informa- particular aspect of the treaty, but that's really up to the tion as a means to access on governance? member. I'm here to answer the questions that the mem- ber puts. The Chair: Hon. Members, the member for Surrey- Tynehead wishes to make an introduction. Section 2 approved. Leave granted. On section 3. Introductions by Members S. Fraser: We've moved into the governance section, chapter 3 of the Yale treaty, Bill 11. I must say, probably D. Hayer: It gives me great pleasure to introduce 20 grade the most moving part of any treaty is the governance 7 students and 20 grade 5 students who are visiting from 7866 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
Ellendale Elementary School, one of the best schools in persons who do receive services and programs through Canada, in my riding of Surrey-Tynehead. any Yale First Nation institution. Joining them are their two teachers — a school trustee [1525] from New Westminster and teacher, whose name is That, however, doesn't prevent the Yale from making Michael Ewen, and Mrs. Melody McGillivray — as well additional provisions or additional laws, but they are at as many parents and volunteers who have taken time minimum required to make laws that would allow for out of their busy schedules to help the students to learn access for these groups of people listed. about our government. These students are future leaders.I was talking to them S. Fraser: I'm afraid that every time I ask a question earlier. They might be our future Premiers or Prime on this, I have more, but I don't think I can spend any Ministers, MLAs or MPs, or mayors or councillors. I'm more time on that. happy to see them here. Would the House please make Just on the wording within the bill. Yale First Nation them very, very welcome. Final Agreement, 3(1): "The Yale First Nation Final Agreement is approved, given effect and declared valid Debate Continued and has the force of law. (2) Without limiting subsection (1), a person or body (a) has the powers, rights, privileges Hon. M. Polak: With respect to freedom of information, and benefits conferred…." they would not be subject to the freedom-of-information I get that. This is whatI don't get: "(b) must perform the legislation in British Columbia because the Yale First duties and is subject to the liabilities imposed on the person Nation will not be a public body. However, if the member or body by the Yale First Nation Final Agreement." would refer to section 3.11.2, the Yale First Nation I'm not saying I disagree with it. I don't understand it. government is required in the treaty to create a legal What is "subject to the liabilities"? Is there an example of framework through which their members, non-members liabilities? What are we talking about here? and others who are receiving services would be able to access information that is in their custody. Hon. M. Polak: Essentially, this is the two sides to treaty, as it is the two sides to any agreement. An agreement S. Fraser: Thanks for the clarification on that. Just a such as the Yale First Nations treaty confers some bene- further clarification: the minister said they're not a public fits, but it also means that there are responsibilities and body. I would submit that, within Yale, for the Yale obligations that the Yale First Nation is taking on. This people, it is indeed a public body. But again, the question simply means that they are enforceable by law. may be answered in that section. So as with any treaty agreement, there are benefits. There Is the intent of the section 3.11, which the minister are also obligations, much like those of us who are citizens cited, to allow for a structure to be put in place for the of Canada or citizens of British Columbia. We have certain Yale people to have something parallel to an FOI process rights and benefits that accrue to us as a result, but we within the Yale First Nation? also have certain responsibilities and obligations as citizens.
Hon. M. Polak: With respect to the term "public body," Section 3 approved. that's as the term "public body" is defined by theF reedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act. So that's On section 4. the reference made to their not being a public body. Yes, in fact, the Yale would, in forming their government, S. Fraser: Just one question. "TheL ieutenant Governor be responsible for constructing a legal system that re- in Council may authorize a member of the Executive flects the government of their lands and their community, Council to sign the Yale First Nation Final Agreement." and a framework through which people could access I'm ignorant here. Does the Lieutenant-Governor — in information. As you say, a parallel type of system to a this case, himself…? Is he a signatory on treaty? I just FOIPPA system would be developed by the Yale First don't recall. Nation government. Hon. M. Polak: This means that cabinet, theL ieutenant- S. Fraser: Just to finish that issue off: for clarification, Governor-in-Council, may authorize a member of cabinet, would that just be used within Yale, or would other First a member of the executive council. Nations and non–First Nations individuals be able to ac- For example, when the Maa-nulth treaty was due to cess that process when it's in place? be implemented, I spent a goodly number of hours in my office initialling all the documents and signing all Hon. M. Polak: What the Yale are required to do is to the appropriate documents. create legislation that would allow for access to information by Yale First Nation members, by non-members and by Section 4 approved. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7867
On section 5. YEAS — 78 S. Fraser: Just one question, please. "The Yale First Nation Final Agreement is binding on, and can be relied Rustad McIntyre Reid on by, all persons." Now, the Stó:lô.... I'm assuming that Thomson Lekstrom Bell applies to them. If they have contention here…. We've Yamamoto McNeil Chong canvassed this. There are contentions from the Stó:lô on Lake Polak McRae this treaty and some of the aspects of access, certainly for the canyon. I. Black Coell Hawes Is this not seen as contentious? It seems like a simply Krueger Letnick Sultan worded piece of this, section 5, but does the minister Barnett Lee Dalton see any problem with that regarding neighbouring First Heed Cadieux Penner Nations claims? Bloy Coleman Clark [1530] Falcon Bond de Jong Abbott Hansen MacDiarmid Hon. M. Polak: This simply makes the agreement Yap Stilwell Hayer legally binding, gives it the force of law. With respect to the impact or potential infringement on other First Nations Cantelon Les Pimm claims, this actually puts into force the non-derogation Hogg Howard James clause and ensures that it is also binding. That ensures the S. Simpson Sather Horgan protection of other First Nations in surrounding areas Dix D. Black Ralston and ensures that their section 35 rights are not infringed. Kwan Fleming Lali Austin Conroy Brar Sections 5 to 70 inclusive approved. Donaldson D. Routley Huntington Schedule approved. Stewart Foster van Dongen Hammell Trevena Elmore Preamble approved. Bains Mungall Karagianis Chandra Herbert Krog Slater Title approved. Chouhan Thorne Fraser B. Routley Macdonald Coons Hon. M. Polak: I ask that the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment. Horne Bennett Thornthwaite NAYS — 1 Motion approved. B. Simpson Interjection. [1540] The Chair: Division has been called. Hon. Member, we'll report out, and you may call on Hon. R. Coleman: I call Bill 8, intituled International third reading. Interests in Mobile Equipment (Aircraft Equipment) Act, for committee stage. The committee rose at 3:31 p.m. Committee of the Whole House The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. [1535] BIll 8 — International Interests in Mobile Equipment Report and (Aircraft Equipment) Act Third Reading of Bills (continued)
Bill 11 — Yale First Nation TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Final Agreement Act Bill 8; L. Reid in the chair.
Bill 11, Yale First Nation Final Agreement Act, reported The committee met at 3:43 p.m. complete without amendment, read a third time and passed on the following division: On section 1 (continued). 7868 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
B. Ralston: I do have some questions on this bill, B. Ralston: I know there's a schedule which sets which is largely uncontentious. There are a number of out international interests and the jurisdiction and the definitions in section 1. This is an act which is designed choice of law and all that in terms of pursuing under to coincide with a commitment by Canada to join an a seizure. I'm just wondering: what are the advantages international convention. There's an aircraft protocol to entering into this regime for, say, domestic owners which is referred to and a convention. Could the minister of aircraft or domestic companies that operate aircraft? briefly explain what the convention on international Obviously, there's a purpose for bringing this act about. interests in mobile equipment is and then, from that, ex- Can the minister set out for companies that might bene- plain what the aircraft protocol is as well? fit from this what the benefit to them might be?
Hon. K. Falcon: Just before I answer, I want to introduce Hon. K. Falcon: Canada's major airlines, like Air Canada two of the staff members that have joined me today.O ne and WestJet, and aircraft manufacturers — whether it's is a policy analyst, Cynthia Callahan-Maureen, and the Bombardier, Pratt and Whitney or others — support the other is Assistant Deputy Minister Heather Wood. convention and protocol primarily because they expect to The title of the act in the act itself refers to two import- see two primary benefits as a result of this. ant aviation agreements that Canada has signed and is One is a lower cost of credit. For example, the U.S. expected to ratify at any time. The convention on inter- Export-Import Bank has reduced its financing rates by national interests in mobile equipment is a framework one-third for purchases of certain U.S.-manufactured air- treaty of core provisions that may be modified by proto- craft for buyers in countries that implement the protocol. cols for mobile equipment in specific industries. This is The second is a reduction in the costs of determining awfully formal, I'm just realizing as I read this. where to register. I'm advised that apparently lawyers [1545] spend a lot of time trying to figure out where an interest Essentially, what we're trying to deal with here is that should be filed for aircraft financing transactions. The perennial problem that when you've got mobile assets registry provides a single filing location so that you that can fly around the world, there is a challenge in obviate the requirement to have to go and figure out registering interest for lenders on many of these aircraft. jurisdictions and make sure you're registered in each of The goal here is, rather than have it be registered in those jurisdictions where mobile equipment can often a personal property registry here in every province in find itself. Canada, that we have an international registry that will allow lenders and aircraft manufacturers and those that B. Ralston: Thank you for that clear explanation. have a financial interest in any types of mobile equip- In the definition section "declaration" is defined as "a ment to be able to register in an international registry declaration or designation made by the government of and thus ease up the cost of a lot of the financing, etc., Canada in respect of British Columbia…." which will provide a direct benefit for the aviation in- [1550] dustry, including for B.C. companies. Are there companion pieces of legislation in other provinces? Is this process virtually complete across the B. Ralston: I think I understand the general princi- country, or are there other provinces that have yet to follow ple that's being offered there. Generally in international this? treaties or international conventions, it's rare that every I'm just wondering: in terms of timing, is this some- country in the world is a signatory to it. What's the thing that's…? Obviously, assuming this passes, British scope, in broad terms, of the convention? Columbia has done its part. But it would seem, in a If the idea is to create a regime where aircraft could be federal state, that it wouldn't be terribly effective unless subject to seizure and sale in any jurisdiction, obviously you had each province sign on. that would be weaker if there were only a certain num- ber of countries that had signed that — again, given the Hon. K. Falcon: All provinces except British Colum- obvious mobility of aircraft globally. What's the scope of bia, Manitoba, New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island the proposed convention? And how would those prob- have enacted the same implementation act. lems be avoided, or can they be? B. Ralston: Is there the wish, as there often is in federal- Hon. K. Falcon: The aircraft equipment that is covered, provincial relations, that the remaining provinces enact for example, would be aircraft with eight or more seats it, and is there any sense that that's going to take place and helicopters with five or more seats.I t would include imminently? engines. The U.S. and the EU are both signatories, as are, I am Hon. K. Falcon: The answer is yes.I t is anticipated that advised, 43 countries that are signatories to the inter- all of the provinces will be enacting similar legislative acts national convention and protocol on aircraft equipment. to bring the aircraft protocol into full force and effect. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7869
B. Ralston: Again on the same section, is the dec- subsection 3(2), is to make sure that it applies with laration something that's made by the government of respect to what are defined as provincial matters. Canada? It says "in respect of British Columbia." Would that — assuming this legislation passes, as it seems certain to B. Ralston: I want to now turn to subsection 3(3), in the next few minutes — be a declaration by Canada looking at article 57. That appears to just give, if there are immediately, or would it require all the provincial juris- changes in the convention or agreement, further powers dictions to pass similar legislation before Canada was — to include those — as part of the earlier declaration, I able to make that declaration in accordance with the think, in the event of changes. Is that the purpose of that international convention? subsection? [1600] Hon. K. Falcon: I am advised that it doesn't require all provinces to enact similar legislative pieces for the Hon. K. Falcon: I'm advised that we have worked federal government to enact and to ratify the agreement. with the federal government and all of the provinces to My understanding is that there's every expectation that harmonize our approach in respect of which declarations all provinces will introduce similar legislative pieces and are made. I'm also advised that it could also be the case that the federal government is expected to ratify the act that provisions under which declarations have not yet at any time. been declared can also subsequently be utilized.
Sections 1 and 2 approved. Sections 3 to 10 inclusive approved on division.
On section 3. Schedules 1 and 2 approved.
B. Ralston: This is what's called a request for declaration, Title approved. and that is under article 52 of the convention. First of all, is the minister that's referred to here — I don't think Hon. K. Falcon: I move that the committee rise and that's in the definition section…? Is it the Minister of report the bill complete without amendment. Finance that's referred to here as minister? Motion approved. Hon. K. Falcon: Yes. The committee rose at 4:01 p.m. B. Ralston: Looking at article 52 — and I think it's article XXIX of the aircraft protocol — what results if the The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. government of Canada makes that declaration? Article 52 refers to a territorial unit. From my quick review of Report and article 52, it would just appear to confirm that if there's a Third Reading of Bills declaration, it comes into force within British Columbia. Is there anything more to it than that? Bill 8 — International Interests in [1555] Mobile Equipment (Aircraft Equipment) Act Hon. K. Falcon: I am advised that Canada will make an initial declaration that states in which provinces and Bill 8, International Interests in Mobile Equipment territories the convention and aircraft protocol will apply. (Aircraft Equipment) Act, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed. B. Ralston: Subsections 3(1) and 3(2) look, at least at first reading, to be very similar. I'm wondering if Hon. P. Bell: I call Bill 13, intituled Miscellaneous the minister can explain what the difference is. One Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011. says: "…to declare, in accordance with Article 52… and Article XXIX…." Then the other one says to ask Committee of the Whole House the government "to make a declaration, in accordance with the Convention or the Aircraft Protocol…." So can Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes the minister explain the difference between those two Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011 subsections? TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Hon. K. Falcon: I am advised that subsection 3(1) is Bill 13; D. Black in the chair. the request for the feds to have this apply jurisdictionally to include and extend to British Columbia. The second, The committee met at 4:05 p.m. 7870 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
On section 1. L. Krog: If the minister could explain the effect of this sec- tion, I would much appreciate it, and why it's required. Hon. B. Penner: Just briefly, this bill obviously covers [1610] a number of different topic areas. As we move through it, there will be other ministers and their staff, I believe, Hon. B. Penner: As I mentioned briefly in second read- available to handle the detailed questions. ing remarks, the concern here deals with the common-law rule around the certainty that's required for lease terms in The Chair: Minister. Member for Nanaimo. order for those leases to be found to be valid. I believe a 99-year lease term is considered to be valid, but attach- L. Krog: Thank you, hon. Chair. I hope that was — ing the term of the lease or defining the term of the lease how shall I say? — something that would portend well in terms of some other event, such as the dissolution of a for the future, prescient. strata corporation, could be vulnerable to attack because My question to the minister is quite simply this. The the duration is uncertain in terms of the number of years. replacement of the definition of "cattle" with the definition Many strata developments rely on long-term leases to of "dairy animal" — what's the impact of that on the industry, attribute the use and enjoyment of parking spaces and and what's the purpose of this? storage lockers to specific strata unit owners. Some of these leases do not set out a term in a specific number of Hon. D. McRae: We're actually just doing this at the years. In such cases, the rule of certainty could be in- request of the industry to expand the definition of "lactate- voked by parties seeking to declare the lease void in a court. producing mammals" — cows, goats, sheep, the ever-popular As a result, the lease could be declared void from the outset, water buffalo and any prescribed animal in the future. invalidating any allocations of storage lockers and parking It's just to be more encompassing. spaces to strata unit owners that depended on that lease. By exempting these leases from the rule of certainty, L. Krog: If the minister can confirm,I presume this is this amendment aims to protect the interests that strata to enhance the industry in British Columbia in terms of unit owners have in their parking spaces and storage the animals that are regulated and presumably to allow lockers by shielding the underlying leases from the certainty for an expansion. Can the minister confirm that? rule. It will invalidate these arrangements and avoid un- certainty and expensive litigation for a potentially large Hon. D. McRae: Well, we're not at the stage to pre- number of strata developments and their owners. dict that the water buffalo milk is going to be expanding The amendment will have a retroactive effect, in order to rapidly in this province. What we're doing is keeping our protect existing leases from the certainty rule. Rather than options open so that we have the abilities to represent cause controversy, the retroactive protection should serve what is actually being produced in this province or what to validate, instead, the expectations of parties who in good could be produced in this province. Again, it's at the re- faith paid for and entered into these lease arrangements. quest of the industry and what's being considered right now in British Columbia. L. Krog: I wonder if the minister could just confirm, firstly: then this will apply and will be designed to deal L. Krog: Does the minister know what kind of cheese strictly with those sorts of leases for strata corporations. is produced with water buffalo milk? I'm looking for an example here, a concrete example — which I can't imagine, which is why I'm asking the Hon. D. McRae: Well, my smirking answer wants to question. Will it apply only to those kinds of leases that say tasty cheese, but my other answer will be mozzarella. the minister has mentioned or other strata property? Have there been any court cases that led to this section L. Krog: The minister passed the test. We can move being presented? to the next section. The Chair: The member for Port Moody–Coquitlam Sections 1 to 9 inclusive approved. seeks leave?
On section 10. I. Black: Yes, I seek leave to make an introduction.
L. Krog: I don't know if the Attorney needs staff to as- The Chair: Please proceed. sist him at this point or not. Introductions by Members Hon. B. Penner: This would be an appropriate time for the Agriculture staff, I guess, to depart and for the I. Black: While the Attorney General is contemplating Attorney General's staff to enter the chamber. his riveting answer to that question, I wanted to take an Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7871
opportunity, if I may, to introduce some students, some of C. Trevena: Actually, it doesn't. I have a sense that whom are still in the gallery, from Cape Horn Elementary it's going to be best explained in section 16, which School in the thriving metropolis of Coquitlam, with is the most substantial one. I might ask if we can have which I know, Madam Chair, you are intimately familiar. the indulgence of the Chair here, if we can just do a bit We've got some great parent volunteers. This is the of…. If the explanation will be best served on section 16 grade 5 graduating class on their way to middle school. I rather than trying to explain through each section what would like to ask the House to join me in wishing them the minister means about parallel…. well in their middle school adventure. I'd also acknowledge Craig Hollinghum, who is a great Sections 12 to 15 inclusive approved. community volunteer and also, shamelessly, a coach of my son in hockey; Mr. Bill McGovern, the principal of On section 16. the school; and Mme. Denise Gibson, who is with them as well. Would the House join me in making them feel C. Trevena: As I say, I'm not quite sure what the min- most welcome. ister means by "parallel." I go to section 16 because we're talking here about the temporary custody order. The Debate Continued substantial part of the amendments are talking about the extended family program and building in the ability to Hon. B. Penner: The amendment will only apply to look after children without having the court involved. common property of a strata corporation, not to any I wondered if the minister could explain how this other property within that strata corporation — just to works in relation to the new section that's going to be the common property, not to the individual lots within introduced. the strata corporation or the strata property. The other question the member had, I believe, was: is Hon. M. McNeil: What, basically, section 16 does there any litigation that's underway? Not that I'm aware is add section 44.1, which supports the new section of. I can't say definitively that there isn't, but this has been of 54.01, by ensuring that when there is a plan to seek flagged as a potential risk. Due to the sheer numbers of permanent transfer of custody to the child's care provider, people that currently reside in residences that are part of there is sufficient time to meet the residency requirement a strata corporation, I felt concerned this spring, when in the child's best interests. This residency period is in- this issue was brought to me. I wanted to make sure that tended as a safeguard to the court to determine whether it got dealt with this session. a permanent custody transfer would be appropriate for [1615] the child and family.
Sections 10 and 11 approved. C. Trevena: At this stage, with this, when the court is still involved…. The court is being taken out of the mix On section 12. through section 54, but in the new section 44.1 the court will still be involved. C. Trevena: I think, again, this would be the time for [1620] staff to change, because we're changing to a different ministry. Hon. M. McNeil: I just wanted to ensure that I have I wanted a bit of clarification to this section — it will the question right. What you're asking is: is the court be sections 12 through to 20 — and then I've got some still involved? If that is the case, yes. other questions further on. When I had the briefing from the minister's staff, and I appreciate that, on this C. Trevena: So at this point the court is still involved, bill and its implications, we didn't actually look at this although section 54.01, which is the new section, is section. trying to remove the court's involvement. From the I just wondered if the minister could explain the indications I'm getting, I'm getting something confused reasons for…. If we start on section 12, and I think that here. So if the minister could explain again what the two will explain the reasons for the other ones. I'm assuming are. that these are sections that are changed because of the We're talking about temporary custody orders under introduction to section 54. But if you could explain just section 44.1, section 44 of the act being "Extension of in a little bit of real English, I would appreciate that. supervision orders and temporary orders." You've got the permanent transfer of custody planned, which is the Hon. M. McNeil: Many of these sections — from, as new section 54, but we are still talking in this section about you mentioned, 12 to 20, I believe — are actually just court involvement, saying in the new section 44.1(3) parallel approaches, if you will, to the rest of the act — if that "the court may, in the child's best interests," extend that makes sense. the order. Therefore, the court is still involved. 7872 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
Hon. M. McNeil: I hope I've got this correct. Section they're just going to see lots of numbers and subsections. 44.1 allows the court to extend the temporary custody, If the minister could explain how it fits into the general whereas 54.01, if I'm correct…. The court has to be involved well-being of child welfare. in both, and it allows it to happen as well. Hon. M. McNeil: The amendment ensures that a person C. Trevena: I think the minister and I are both a little who has temporary custody of a child under the new confused on this one. The minister just said…. section 54.01 or another person described in section Again, the court involvement. At this stage there is 49(7)(b) receives notice of a hearing to place the child court involvement, and it's only at section 54 where we in continuing custody of the director. This is consistent don't have the court involvement. So under section 44, with the rights of the individuals who have temporary and thereby 44.1, we still have court involvement, and custody under CFCSA provisions. it's only withdrawn with the introduction of section 54. C. Trevena: The person has custody of the child, and Hon. M. McNeil: In fact, in 54.01 the court is involved then the child's going to be placed in the custody of the as well. What it does is it actually creates capacity for the director, which means the child is being removed from court to then create permanent custody. the person who has custody?
C. Trevena: That will clarify it and will speed things up. Hon. M. McNeil: No, this section is just ensuring that The addition, therefore, of section 44.1 is just to, as the they have notice that custody… Let me explain. It's very note says…. It provides for "the extension of a temporary confusing. It just ensures that the person applying has custody order to meet the residency requirement referred notice given to them. to in section 54.01(5)(c)," which is if the person "referred to in subsection (3) (h) under the agreement…or the C. Trevena: So the person applying for custody of the temporary custody order…." child under section 54 has notice given to them. [1625] So it's basically putting in that time limit, the six-month Hon. M. McNeil: No. What this requires is that only the residency time limit. director can apply, so what this is doing is just ensuring that all those people that might be impacted are given notice. Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it's giving them enough time to meet the residency requirement. Sections 18 and 19 approved.
Section 16 approved. On section 20. [1630] On section 17. C. Trevena: Section 20 is quite a long section. I don't C. Trevena: Again to the minister. Is this section know. Maybe I should just specify each section as we again talking about the timing that is involved? The talk about it or whether we want to break it down into explanatory note saying that it provides that custody of a the subsections that are here. This is, I think, really the child transferred under section 54, that same section of crux of the amendment. As I think the minister is aware, the act as added to this bill… I wondered if the minister we're supportive of this amendment but do, again, want could explain. Is this still an issue of timing? a bit of clarification on it. In section 54.01(1), the first section: "If a child is in the Hon. M. McNeil: The amendment ensures that a max- care or custody of a person other than the child's parent imum time periods for temporary custody order apply under (a) an agreement made under section 8…." in relation to orders made prior to an order that perma- Now, section 8 in the original Child, Family and nently transfers custody under the new section 54.01. Community Service Act still describes agreements It's consistent with the treatment of temporary custody with child's kin and others. Would the minister explain orders when custody is permanently transferred or re- whether this is still kith and kin, whether it's extended turned to the parent under other CFCSA provisions. family or what the relationship is there.
Section 17 approved. Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it is the kith-and-kin and the extended family program. On section 18. C. Trevena: To the minister: are extended family program C. Trevena: Again, I wonder if the minister could and kith and kin the same program, just under different explain just what this means. For anybody reading it, names now? Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7873
Hon. M. McNeil: Yes, it's the new name. suring that we have the children able to enter that sort of framework. C. Trevena: Reading this then, it's very simple. Under section (a), if the child is under kith and kin or under Hon. M. McNeil: It's my understanding that if a child extended family, there will be much easier transfer of is already in the extended family program, it is with the care to the family member who is looking after that agreement of the parent, and therefore the application child. Will this change in any way the supports that that will be moved forward. If the parents are not available family gets, either financial or social, under the extended in this case, then there are other avenues where we can family kin program? proceed, but it can still move forward without that.
Hon. M. McNeil: No, there's no financial change. C. Trevena: I just wanted to ask for a bit of clarifi- cation. I think it might be the whole of this section. It C. Trevena: At the moment there are, I understand, might just be this 54.01(1), which we're discussing at the about 350 children and young people who are under moment. In the Child, Family and Community Service care under the kith and kin or extended family program. Act, under part 1, section 12 — talking about agree- In the greater scheme of the several thousand — I think ments with a child's kin and others, the extended family it's 10,000 or so — children in care under the whole aus- program or kith and kin — it says that agreements do pices of care, this isn't many. I wondered if the minister not limit the court's power. "An agreement does not could explain how this is going to really improve life for limit the court's power to hear an application and make more children who are in care of the ministry? an order about a child." Is this section overruling that section, or do the two Hon. M. McNeil: What these amendments are going to work in tandem? do is allow for the transfer of permanent legal custody of [1640] a vulnerable child living with an extended family to those family members without having to remove the child into Hon. M. McNeil: It's my understanding that the government care first. So what it's going to be able to do is court always has residual power to act in the child's best literally create a quicker and simpler process and provides interest. for stability for these vulnerable children who reside with care providers. It really supports certainty and a more Sections 20 to 32 inclusive approved. permanent situation for the vulnerable child. On section 33. C. Trevena: I understand the desire for permanency and the desire for security for the child. My question to Hon. T. Lake: I move the amendment to section 33 the minister was…. standing in my name on the orders of the day. [1635] [SECTION 33, by deleting the text shown as struck out and At the moment there are only 350 children who have adding the text shown as underlined: kith and kin. Is there going to be an attempt to expand 1 Schedule D of the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act, S.B.C. 2000, c. 17, is amended in the description of that program to ensure that we get more children and Anhluut'ukwsim Laxmihl Angwinga'sanskwhl Nisga'a [a.k.a. young people through this protection away from the Nisga'a Memorial Lava Bed Park] courts, away from having to have the involvement of the (a) by striking out "and (6) the New Aiyansh Village proposed courts, and get that sort of arrangement? Or is the minister south access road shown in Figure 4.1 of the October 2006 report titled "New Aiyansh Village Government, Proposed looking at different ways that this can come into effect? South Access Road, Nisga'a Memorial Lava Bed Park — Boundary Adjustment Request", on file 84220-25-0386 in BC Hon. M. McNeil: This is another option for children Parks and Protected Areas Program office in Victoria." and in temporary care, and I think it's one that's avail- substituting "(6) the New Aiyansh Village proposed south access road shown in Figure 4.1 of the October 2006 report able. Depending on the individual child plan, whether titled "New Aiyansh Village Government, Proposed South it works for them or not, it is available. It's one that I Access Road, Nisga'a Memorial Lava Bed Park — Boundary think is really going to allow a trusted family member Adjustment Request", on file 84220-25-0386 inBC Parks office in or friend to offer a permanent home in a much quicker Victoria; and (7) the proposed transmission line corridor shown on Drawing No. 2L 102-T07-00011 titled "West Route — and smoother way. Proposed Crossing of Nisga'a Lava Bed Memorial Park Plan and Profile", dated June 2010 and on file 84220-25-0386 in BC Parks C. Trevena: One of the issues on the kith-and-kin office in Victoria. all those parcels or tracts of Crown land, together extended family program is the need for parental agree- with all that foreshore or land covered by water, contained within the following described boundaries and containing 10.5 hectares ment. Is that also the case for section (b), the temporary more or less: custody order? I know that having to have parental commencing at the intersection of the northerly boundary of the agreement under kith and kin can be restrictive in en- park described in Appendix G-1 of the Nisga'a Final Agreement 7874 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
as having a grid bearing of 63° 00′ 00″ and a length of 2.175 mittee to one that's broader? Is there a central rationale kilometres, and a line having a grid bearing of 159° 46′ 28″ to that? through Zone 9 NAD 83 UTM coordinate N6106080.8m and E 503099.3m; thence northeasterly along the said northerly boundary of the park Hon. S. Thomson: The rationale is to broaden the 40.28 metres; input, broaden the expertise, broaden the contribution thence on a grid bearing of 159° 46′ 28″ a distance of 169.1 metres; of members to the environment and land use committee thence on a grid bearing of 69° 46′ 28″ a distance of 12.0 metres; thence on a grid bearing of 159° 46′ 28″ a distance of 897 metres process. With the recent restructuring of government more or less to the intersection with a portion of the southerly and the importance of the role that the environment and boundary of the park; land use committee plays across resource ministries, it thence southwesterly along the portion of the southerly boundary was felt that that was a right step. As you correctly iden- to a line drawn parallel to and perpendicularly distant 104 metres from the last described line bearing 159° 46′ 28″; tified, it does catch up to the process that is in place. So thence on a grid bearing of 339° 46′ 28″ a distance of 889 metres this amendment really, essentially, confirms the way that more or less to a point lying on a grid bearing of 249° 46′ 28″ from the committee has been operating. the southerly limit of the 169.1 metre boundary described above; thence on a grid bearing of 69° 46′ 28″ a distance of 22.0 metres; thence on a grid bearing of 339° 46′ 28″ a distance of 161 metres The Chair: Noting the hour, Members, shall sections more or less to the northerly boundary of the park; 34 through 137 pass? thence on a grid bearing 63° 00′ 00″ and along the northerly [1645] boundary of the park a distance of 30.2 metres more or less to the point of commencement.", and (b) by striking out "17 792 hectares." and substituting "17 781 Sections 34 to 137 inclusive approved on division. hectares."] Title approved. On the amendment. Hon. B. Penner: I move that the committee rise, re- Hon. T. Lake: It simply replaces a map with a legal port the bill complete with amendment, and that's it. description of the area involved. Motion approved. Amendment approved. The committee rose at 4:46 p.m. Section 33 as amended approved. The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. On section 34. Reporting of Bills N. Macdonald: This is a very, very different way of doing this process, and it's very truncated. With the Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes rules that have been put in place, we have about two or Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011 three minutes to do about 70 or 80 sections. The minister that I'm going to speak to.... It's not his fault, but it does Bill 13, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. mean that it's very truncated. 2), 2011, reported complete with amendment. Section 34 deals with the Environment and Land Use Act. If the minister could simply explain the reason for Mr. Speaker: When shall the bill be considered as this section, I guess we'll start there, and then we'll move read? on as time permits. Hon. B. Penner: By leave, now. Hon. S. Thomson: This section, or the amendment here, simply provides for the appointment to ELUC by Leave granted. order-in-council of non–executive council members so that ELUC, the environment and land use committee of Third Reading of Bills cabinet, can comprise executive council members and other members appointed by order-in-council, with the Bill 13 — Miscellaneous Statutes proviso that the majority of members must remain, and the Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011 chair must remain, members of the executive council. Bill 13, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. N. Macdonald: This is part of a system that is actually 2), 2011, read a third time and passed. in place and is working, and this catches up to what exists. But what is the rationale for the change? Why was Hon. B. Penner: I now call committee stage debate on there a change from what was exclusively a cabinet com- Bill 15, Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act (No. 4). Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7875
Committee of the Whole House so there's a double benefit. Why did the municipality, like the minister, not look at perhaps a tax deferral for Bill 15 — Municipalities Enabling the property owner so that when it comes time and they and Validating Act (No. 4) sell their property for a huge profit, the property taxes go against that profit? That way, businesses don't end up TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on leaving because they can't pay their leases. Bill 15; D. Black in the chair. Hon. I. Chong: First, I want to make it clear that this Section 1 approved. is what the city of Richmond had asked for, as opposed to what the member is proposing, which would be what On section 2. he would be suggesting we would recommend. But this is actually what Richmond's proposal was in how to deal H. Lali: In short, the bill is known as MEVA, for with this very significant and unusual situation. an acronym. What's happened here is that when the What I also want to say is that his idea about the SkyTrain went through in Richmond, some of the prop- deferral is not as simple as it sounds. Because there are erties that were close by in the area…. The land use there lease arrangements made with the lessors and the lessees is switching, obviously, and property assessments are and these are triple-net leases, there is an automatic going up, as land values go up because of the proximity flow-through in the passing of these common costs so to SkyTrain. that these property tax amounts, if they are provided That's one of the benefits, as you know. When the through a reduction and through a relief, then could be SkyTrain goes there, property values do go up and people passed on to those tenants, which I think I heard the make money. Speculators come in, and developers come in, member saying he is supportive of. all looking to make a buck. There's nothing wrong with Deferring them would not necessarily accomplish the that. That's how our economy functions. same effect because of the obligation to pass on the taxation What's been happening there is that some of the amounts through a leased agreement. But more import- merchants and even property owners…. One particular antly, as I said in my comments at the beginning, this is property — I won't mention the names — in 2007 was what Richmond had asked for. So I hope the member assessed at $9 million, and in 2008 the property was understands we are dealing with that. It is also transitional, assessed at $25.5 million, obviously raising their taxes. so it's not going to be carried on for a number of years Another one of the property owners, the business beyond the transition period of five years. owner said that taxes are approximately $380,000, while Before I sit down, I just wanted to introduce staff: Mike the business makes less than $100,000 annually in net profit. Furey and Meagan Gergley, who are from my ministry. Problems occur. By the end of 2009 what's happening is Christina Dawkins from the Ministry of Finance is here that a lot of the merchants are moving out because they as well. can't pay the rent and the leases with the taxes and the triple-net included in there. H. Lali: I want to thank the minister for the introduction There's now 180,000 square feet of space up for lease. of the staff who are there doing a valuable service for the The existing tenants are not renewing their leases due to people of British Columbia. the rise in property taxes. The opposition gets that. We Under the same section 2(5)(a). The rates could be understand. Business is in there to make a buck. They different, according to subsection (5)(b)(i) — different employ people. We don't have a problem with that. We classes of land, different activities and circumstances understand where they're coming from. What this bill related to the land and its uses, and different uses as allows is for the city of Richmond to have a permissive established by the zoning bylaw. I just want to put that tax exemption as per section 2. on the record. [1650] One of the other things, in the same section, subsection What happens is that in order to keep the taxes low (8)(b), it also says that "any additional requirements estab- and entice business to stay or others to come in, and lished in the exemption agreement have been met, a tax merchants…. This is obviously favourable to them. But exemption certificate must be issued for the parcel of land one of the problems that it's creating is that the property in accordance with the exemption agreement." Does this owners — who pass on these taxes to the merchants who not actually tie the municipality's hands? Just to clarify, the are leasing their business from them — in a year, two use of the word "must" as opposed to the use of the word years, three years or four years down the road will make "may." It obviously ties the municipality's hands. quite a bit of money, as the values will obviously go up as [1655] well. It could be triple, quadruple or quintuple. They derive the benefit there, but now there's also the Hon. I. Chong: Because this is enabling legislation low property tax that will be allowed as a result of this, — again, the city of Richmond requesting it — it is the 7876 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
last part of a four-step process. In fact, it states that once tion. They want to level the playing field. They want to they've gone through this enabling process, that's the promote equity amongst their businesses in the com- reason why this certificate must be issued. munity, and therefore help the business owners stay in It also provides notification, really, to the tenants that business during this transitional redevelopment. if this property or this tax exemption relief is to be pro- vided, that the tenants are also then aware of it so that H. Lali: Noting the hour, I'm going to roll two questions that relief is going to flow through to them, which is into one. really what the intention is to deal with these triple-net The first question is on subsection 9(e). It talks about: leases that are in existence. "...a recapture amount is payable in respect of a taxation year" — where it's applicable —"if the conditions specified B. Ralston: Just a further question of clarification, in the exemption certificate are not met or the exemption then. Given that the intent of this legislation appears to certificate is cancelled, and how that amount is to be be interested in relieving tenants against the effect of a determined." dramatic rise in property value, occasioned by public in- [1700] vestment in the Canada Line, this new private value to Perhaps the minister could explain what this exactly the land is created solely by public investment, is it open means and how this recapture actually takes place. That's to the municipalities and municipal electors to make the first question. the judgment about this, whether the exemption that Then my final question is actually on section 4. Do we is granted could be simply deferred and required to be have to pass the first ones first, or canI do this? I can do paid by the owner of the property at some point in the this because of the time? future, particularly, say, upon sale? When we're looking at properties that have increased The Chair:Sorry, your time is up. in value from $9 million to $25 million, one would think there's a little bit of tax room there to pay an increased H. Lali: Okay. Well, then, my final question,I guess…. assessment as an owner while not damaging the eco- I'll roll this into a question. The actual section 4, N" otice nomic interests of their own tenants. to lessees," I want to read into the record. It says: "If an Is that an option that's available under this policy? exemption certificate has been issued in respect of a There are some words there that are used — "a recapture parcel of land and the owner of the parcel has received an amount" and conditions on the exemption bylaw. Is that assessment notice for that parcel under the Assessment scenario possible under this legislation or not? Act, the owner must promptly deliver a copy of the notice and of the exemption certificate… Hon. I. Chong: No. The Chair: Hon. Member, I'm sorry. Your time is up. H. Lali: Again, as I stated, the owners of the proper- Would you please take your seat. ties stand to, obviously, make a windfall as a result of the SkyTrain going through and the property values go- H. Lali: …to each lessee of any portion of the ing up when they actually sell and also get…. Although parcel." they passed the taxes in the way of a lease through to the I was wondering how this is going to be placed… merchants, how is this not actually…. I know that this government does not believe in subsidies to business. The Chair:Member. Member. They believe that under free enterprise, the business ought to be able to flourish and stand on its own. But H. Lali: …and how the saving is going to be passed how is this not a subsidy to business? on to the lessee. Could the minister please explain that, and does the minister believe in subsidies to business or not? Sections 2 to 8 inclusive approved on division.
Hon. I. Chong: Richmond has indicated that it in- Title approved. tends to use the tax exemptions it can provide under this legislation — which, again, I want to say is en- Hon. I. Chong: I move the committee rise, report Bill abling — to bring property taxes paid in the Brighouse 15 complete without amendments. area back down to levels that are comparable to what is paid by businesses elsewhere in Richmond where Motion approved on division. property values have not spiked or increased as significantly. The committee rose at 5:02 p.m. So the exceptions that Richmond is requesting…. Again, I want to say that they have made that determina- The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7877
Report and Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, this supply bill was Third Reading of Bills introduced to authorize funding for the operation of government programs for the 2011-2012 fiscal year. The Bill 15 — Municipalities Enabling amount requested is that resolved by the Committee of and Validating Act (No. 4) Supply after consideration of the main estimates. The House has already received, taken as read and agreed Bill 15, Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act to the reports of resolutions from the Committee of (No. 4), reported complete without amendment, read a Supply. third time and passed on division. In addition, the House has resolved that there be granted from and out of the consolidated revenue fund Committee of Supply (Section A), having reported the necessary funds towards defraying the charges and resolutions, was granted leave to sit again. expenses of the public service of the province for the fis- cal year ending March 31, 2012. Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, I move that the reports Mr. Speaker, it is the intention of the government to of resolutions from the Committee of Supply on May 3, proceed with all stages of this supply bill this day. 5, 9, 11, 17, 18, 19, 25, 30 and 31 and on June 1 and 2 be now received, taken as read and agreed to. Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I would ask you to remain [1705] in your seats for a few minutes while the bill is being circulated. Motion approved. [1710] In keeping with the practice of this House, the final Hon. K. Falcon: I move that there be granted from supply bill will be permitted to advance through all and out of the consolidated revenue fund the sum of stages in one sitting. $34,214,819,000. This sum includes that authorized to be paid under section 1 of the Supply Act (No. 1), 2011, Bill 16, Supply Act, 2011-2012, introduced, read a first time and ordered to proceed to second reading forthwith. and is granted to Her Majesty towards defraying the char- ges and expenses of the public service of the province for Second Reading of Bills the fiscal year ending March 31, 2012. Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012 Motion approved. Hon. K. Falcon: I move that the bill be read a second time Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, I also move that there now. be granted from and out of the consolidated revenue fund the sum of $742.726 million. This sum includes that Motion approved. authorized to be paid under section 2 of the Supply Act (No. 1), 2011, and is granted to Her Majesty towards Hon. K. Falcon: I move that the bill be referred to defraying the capital, loans, investments and other fi- the Committee of the Whole House for consideration nancing requirements of the province for the fiscal year forthwith. ending March 31, 2012. Bill 16, Supply Act, 2011-2012, read a second time Motion approved. and ordered to proceed to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration forthwith. Introduction and First Reading of Bills Committee of the Whole House
Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012 Bill 16 — Supply Act, 2011-2012
Hon. K. Falcon presented a message from His Honour TheH ouse in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on the Administrator: a bill intituled Supply Act, 2011- Bill 16; D. Black in the chair. 2012. The committee met at 5:13 p.m. Hon. K. Falcon: Mr. Speaker, I move the bill be intro- duced and read a first time now. Sections 1 to 3 inclusive approved.
Motion approved. Schedules 1 and 2 approved. 7878 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
Preamble approved. Coastal Ferry Amendment Act, 2011 Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act (No. 4) Title approved. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Administrator doth assent to these acts. Hon. K. Falcon: Hon. Chair, I move that the committee Supply Act, 2011-2012 rise and report the bill complete without amendment. In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Administrator doth thank Her Majesty's loyal subjects, accepts their Motion approved. benevolence and assents to this act.
The committee rose at 5:14 p.m. His Honour the Administrator retired from the chamber. [1740] The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair. [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] Report and Third Reading of Bills Hon. R. Coleman: Prior to moving the long adjourn- ment and the other adjournment, I would like to remind Bill 16 — SuPPly act, 2011-2012 members, on behalf of the staff who do a great job for us in this building, to clean out your desks when you leave. Bill 16, Supply Act, 2011-2012, reported complete with- It saves them some work, and they would very much out amendment, read a third time and passed on division. appreciate it. So if you'd take whatever you have in your [1715] desk with you, they'd appreciate it. Not right now. Boy, talk about a bunch of keeners. Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, if you just would remain in your seats, I think the Administrator should be here Interjections. shortly, in the next five or ten minutes. Hon. Members, it looks like there will be about a ten- Mr. Speaker: Members. to 15-minute recess, and I'll bring everybody back then. Hon. R. Coleman: I move that the House at its rising The House recessed from 5:17 p.m. to 5:35 p.m. do stand adjourned until it appears to the satisfaction of the Speaker, after consultation with the government, [Mr. Speaker in the chair.] that the public interest requires the House shall meet or until the Speaker may be advised by the govern- Mr. Speaker: Members, please take your seats. The ment that it is desired to prorogue the third session of Administrator is in the precinct. the 39th parliament of the province of British Columbia. The Speaker may give notice that he is so satisfied or has His Honour the Administrator entered the chamber been so advised, and thereupon the House shall meet at and took his place in the chair. a time stated in such notice and, as the case may be, may transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned Royal Assent to Bills to that time and date. And in the event of the Speaker being unable to act owing to illness or other cause, the Clerk of the House: Deputy Speaker shall act in his stead for the purpose of Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2011 this order. Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) Initiative Vote and Ref- erendum Act Motion approved. New West Partnership Trade Agreement Implemen- tation Act Mr. Speaker: Before we adjourn, Members…. All Civil Forfeiture Amendment Act, 2011 members will be travelling back to their ridings. It's a Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2011 time when you can spend a lot of time with your family International Interests in Mobile Equipment (Aircraft and, in some instances, with your grandchildren — in Equipment) Act the member for Chilliwack's case, all your grandchildren. Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Amendment Act, 2011 I think it is a time to get back, reconnect with your Wills, Estates and Succession Amendment Act, 2011 constituents and spend — I reiterate that again — a lot Yale First Nation Final Agreement Act of time with your family, because it is so important. Police (Independent Investigations Office)A mendment This is a job that I know the people of British Columbia Act, 2011 take seriously and, I know, we take seriously, and it's import- Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2011 ant that we re-energize ourselves for when we get back. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7879
I want to thank all the members for their cooperation. was introduced. So we wanted to set out and make up for Even with question period today, it still was a pretty that. We wanted to set out and fix that, so that was what good session, by and large. With that, I want to thank our listening process was about. the members for the session and for what's transpired. It was also, though, in recognition of the fact that the independent panel told us that the HST as it stood was Hon. R. Coleman moved adjournment of the House. going to add a big new burden for families all across the province. They told us that wasn't fair, and we needed to Motion approved. address the fairness issue. So we went out and talked to British Columbians. We Mr. Speaker: ThisH ouse stands adjourned until further heard from almost 300,000 British Columbians on their notice. views on the HST in the biggest listening exercise in the history of this province. What we learned is that British The House adjourned at 5:43 p.m. Columbians wanted us to make it fair. They wanted us to make sure that we were recognizing that it's tougher for families to get ahead in this province. For many families PROCEEDINGS IN THE who are now earning two incomes, they're still feeling DOUGLAS FIR ROOM like they're getting more money, but they're still falling behind. We had to find a way to make sure we were be- Committee of Supply ing fair to families. So $350 extra per family under the HST wasn't fair, ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE PREMIER in my view, and that's why we changed it. That's why (continued) we are changing the HST so that it will be two points lower — a 10 percent tax across the province as opposed The House in Committee of Supply (Section A); D. to the 12 percent PST-GST that the NDP are supporting. Horne in the chair. A 10 percent tax will mean that every single household in British Columbia is ahead of where they would be The committee met at 3 p.m. under the NDP proposal. We needed to take a stand and make sure that British On Vote 10: Office of the Premier, $9,455,000(continued). Columbians had a little bit lighter tax burden, and one Hon. C. Clark: Now, of course we got cut off just before of the ways we did that was by rebalancing the burden I was able to answer the member's question. I'm going to between business and families. Business is going to pay do my best to try and address some of the issues that he a little bit more so that families can pay a little bit less. raised when he was up right before we got cut off, before That just seemed to me to be an issue of fundamental we had to take a break for lunch. He raised a whole num- fairness. ber of issues, and I'll see if I can get to a couple of them. That's where we're at on the HST these days. Our He talked at the very beginning about laying off government and certainly I are supporting a 10 percent women, and I think the Leader of the Opposition knows tax. We are going to ask British Columbians in a secret a lot about laying off women. In fact, I think that's ballot whether or not they like the proposed improved what the NDP have just done recently in their leader- HST or whether or not they want to go back to the NDP ship. He was a central part of laying off theL eader of the proposal for a 12 percent PST-GST. Opposition, a woman who had served the Legislature I don't know what decision they will make, but we will well for years and had prided herself on being a voice for respect the decision that they make. There's absolutely women. Well, the NDP laid her off. Gosh, there's leader- no question about that. I hope that British Columbians ship for you when it comes to supporting women. will vote for it for the same reasons that I am. It's fair. On the HST. I'm really glad that we got a chance to It's more efficient. It's a lower tax burden for British canvass some of those issues in question period today, Columbians than we bear now. and I'm looking forward to continuing the debate here as There are a lot of the reasons, I think, that families well. You know, the reason that we went out and decided can support this. The government did not introduce it to consult with British Columbians about the HST was in in the way that people liked, and people were right about recognition of a couple of things — first, in recognition that. But we set out to try and fix that by really listening of the fact that British Columbians were quite justifiably to British Columbians. I think that if the Leader of the upset — and I was one of those British Columbians — Opposition spent a little bit of time listening to British about the way the government introduced it. Columbians all across the province, he would find that The government needed to have a dialogue with his proposal for a 12 percent PST-GST is not something British Columbians that didn't happen when the HST that British Columbians will favour. 7880 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
A. Dix: It's good to be here for the last few minutes I think what we are seeing now is a great public de- of our debate on the Premier's estimates before closure bate about this issue. A great debate is a well-informed kicks in. I just wanted to respond briefly to the Premier, debate, so the government is providing information to because I know many families who are affected by her make sure that people are informed about what the HST decision, her government's decision, to lay off women really is and how it works. Then people can make their workers in British Columbia — the largest layoff in own decision about whether or not they will support it history. in the referendum, and we will live by the decision, what- [1505] ever it is, that they make when they cast their ballots. I know the Premier thinks there's light to be made I don't think we should apologize for making sure that of that. I don't think there is. People worked hard and British Columbians have the information they need, and did important work, especially in health care facilities we won't, because that's what open government is about. around British Columbia. They were misled; let's face It's about making sure, first of all, that you're listening to it. The government of the day said they wouldn't tear up people; second, that you're acting on what you've heard; their contracts and they did, and they did it in a way that and third, that people have information about what was, I think, reprehensible. And it wasn't found repre- government is actually doing. hensible by me alone. It was found reprehensible by the It's part of opening up government, which is part of Supreme Court of Canada. the change that I'm bringing to this government. I've So I think to make light of that is unfortunate, but I talked about that quite a bit. I won't go over again some know that apparently those families — those thousands of the other things that we've done to open up govern- of women laid off and men laid off — may not play as ment, although it's been pretty extensive so far. We have important a role in the Premier's agenda as others. a lot more to do. I just wanted to ask the Premier, on the HST specific- The member says that he's been out there advocating ally, why she won't pull the partisan ads. I mean, this is a for his position. I don't think he has. We stood in this referendum campaign. I understand she's advocating for Legislature and talked about the HST. We stood up to- her position. I think that's fair in a democratic society. day, and they canvassed it extensively — I shouldn't say I'm advocating for mine. It's going to be a good debate. extensively — for 45 minutes in the Finance Ministry I'll be meeting people all across the province, as I have in estimates, and never once have I heard the member op- the last little while. posite talk about why he supports a higher 12 percent But I don't think it's fair in a referendum campaign…. PST-GST system. It would be illegal in an election campaign for the gov- I have never once heard him stand up and talk ernment to do this — let's be clear — and she promised about the merits of a 12 percent PST-GST for British that this would be like a provincial election campaign. Columbians. If he wants to advocate for his position, he It would be illegal in a provincial election campaign for has an obligation, I think, to explain that not just to us the Premier to do what she's doing here. but when he travels the province. So my question is very straightforward to the Premier. When he goes to small-town British Columbia and Why doesn't she pull the ads? big cities and gets on his campaign in favour of the PST- GST, I hope we will hear him explain what is so good Hon. C. Clark: I don't know why the NDP is scared about a 12 percent PST-GST. I've been waiting to hear of getting information out there — or I suspect I do this defence. I'm sure that he could get quite passionate know the answer to that, though. The HST, particu- about it if he decided to take it on. larly the improved HST, will make a difference inB ritish I don't know what he's scared of, but I hope he will Columbians' lives. I believe — in fact, the independent stand up, have the backbone to stand up, and make his panel confirms this — that it's going to create thousands position on that absolutely crystal-clear. and thousands of jobs all across the province, but more importantly and perhaps more urgently, the improved A. Dix: The Minister ofF inance introduced a motion HST is going to mean a lower taxation burden for fam- on Monday. I was the first speaker for the opposition ilies all across the province. on Monday, and I showed up for that debate. I look for- Now, the information campaign that the govern- ward to debating the Premier whenever she likes on ment has funded is intended to make sure that people this question. It's not an issue for me. have the information they require in order to cast an in- I've been advocating on this issue ever since…. As formed ballot. the Premier said, all of her colleagues were sneaky. Just [1510] to quote her, all of her colleagues were sneaky and mis- I wasn't here, but I know that the opposition complained led people in the last election campaign. That's what she vociferously and tenaciously about the fact that there said. I've been advocating on this issue since then. wasn't enough information provided to the public about The reason I'm advocating is very simple. They're in- the HST, that there wasn't an adequate public debate. creasing taxes on families — they are — to cut taxes for Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7881
business, after having done that again and again and Actually, that's not true. It's not true. The government again. This is a major tax shift onto families, andI disagree has been advocating, in the case of the HST, lower taxes with that. on families — in fact, taxes that would get every single That's, by the way, what was laid out byC arole Taylor and family further ahead than they would be under the taxes others in the House today as to why British Columbians that this member is proposing — and higher taxes on oppose the HST — on substance that I quoted today in business. It's rebalancing the burden of taxes between the House. families and business. What I'd like to ask the Premier is…. In all of her con- So the member needs to make sure that he's sticking sultation…. The biggest consultation, of course, in this to the facts. That's one of the reasons that the govern- debate happened in the initiative campaign. People went ment is making sure that the people have the facts about out and got 700,000 petition names to try and overturn the HST, that people understand what the reality of it a decision of the government. is. They complain that there hasn't been nearly enough The Premier will recall that her advice to those people debate and information out there. Well, let's ignite that wasn't to go out and get signatures and so on. It was to call debate. Let's get the information out there so that people their local MLAs. A lot of good that would have done. can cast an informed vote on what will surely be the In any event, that was the biggest consultation in history. most important referendum that any Canadian juris- They sought a referendum campaign. They sought a ref- diction has been asked to undertake on a tax issue, and erendum on this question. It's their referendum. Does that's certainly this one. the Premier not think there's something wrong when [1520] her Minister of Finance has acknowledged that this is The member keeps digging up statements by a woman a totally partisan campaign, putting forward just pro- who used to sit in this House — Carole Taylor, a woman government information? That's what the campaign is. for whom I have a great deal of respect — and he talks Doesn't the Premier think it's wrong to be spend- about her statements on the HST as though she's talking ing public funds on this at this time, when every day in about the HST today, as though she's talking about the the Legislature the Premier and her colleagues say: "We HST as it's been improved. can't do anything about shutting down group homes Of course, the comments that she made then didn't for people with developmental disabilities. Not enough have the information of the independent panel. It had money"? They say: "We can't meet our commitments on nothing to do with the changes that have been proposed class size and composition. Not enough money. We can't by this government. Her comments were based on the address the health care needs of people on Haida Gwaii. HST as it was introduced. The member, I think, is really Not enough money." profoundly unfair to a woman who has served not [1515] just this Legislature but our entire province with great Why on earth would the Premier be spending $5 million distinction. I think he's incredibly unfair to her to take in public funds on ridiculous Stickman ads? her comments out of context and somehow pretend that she's commenting on the HST as it's planned today, because Interjections. she absolutely isn't. The comments that he quotes aren't about an HST The Chair:Members. that's at 10 percent. The comments that he quotes aren't about an HST that's going to include a bridging transition Hon. C. Clark: Well, still no defence of the PST-GST fund for families to make sure they get ahead. Her com- at 12 percent from the member opposite; still no intel- ments were not about an HST that's going to mean a lectual underpinning for where he's going on this; still lower tax burden for families, on average after the no big idea about why we should go backward to a 12 changes come in, than it would have under the tax that percent PST-GST, a dual-tax system — no argument for the NDP is proposing. that at all. I think it's really profoundly unfair, and I hope this Instead, he stands and wants to talk about the process, member has the respect for this House and for the mem- and the process is surely important. But I think, though, ber that he quotes to stand up next and apologize to her, I'm starting to smell a little bit of fear over there from in light of the distinguished service she's provided to the Leader of the Opposition, who refuses to stand and British Columbia, for taking her comments so unfairly explain why he supports a tax increase. It's pretty hard, out of context. Ms. Taylor deserves better, given the service I think, to try and defend going to a 12 percent tax that that she's provided this province over the years. She deserves is a PST-GST system. Pretty hard to explain why you'd far better than the kind of treatment she's received at the support going backward to that when it's going to make hands of the Leader of the Opposition. it harder for families. Of course, he stands up and says: "Gee, the government A. Dix: Well, of course, Carole Taylor was talking about is advocating higher taxes on families and lower tax…." the HST as it is today, was doing it, exactly as it is today — 7882 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
the HST as it is today, absolutely — and next month and election campaign. This is the reality of the situation we're the month after that. I mean, yes, she didn't include the facing. So I look forward to the debate in British Columbia Premier's promises two years from now. But they don't against this tax shift onto working families. I oppose this even keep their promises for two months on this question, tax and this tax shift onto working families, and that's never mind two years. They can't be trusted on the ques- what I'll be advocating around British Columbia. I'm per- tion — absolutely can't be trusted on the question. fectly happy that the Premier will go out and do the same. Even the independent panel, in what has to be described I think that's a good thing in a democracy. as a favourable assessment of the tax — more favourable What I find less acceptable is for the government to than Treasury Board has given…. The government can't effectively cheat in the campaign and to effectively say: explain the difference between Treasury Board's as- "We're going to also use taxpayers' money." So we hit sessment and the independent panel's assessment. The families for $1.3 billion between July 1, 2010, and June assessment of Treasury Board was a $1.9 billion tax shift 30, 2011. We're going to hit them for another $1.3 billion onto families. The independent panel says that's only in the coming year for the HST, and we're going to use $1.3 billion. So that's the difference. That's the difference some of the money that they transferred onto families to between the position of the independent panel and the pay for an ad campaign that nobody wants. position of the Minister of Finance on that question. I defy anyone — anyone — to find a single person But the HST came into place on July 1, 2010. That's in British Columbia, other than the ad agencies and the $1.3 billion on families then. It continues in place on July members of the Liberal caucus and the public affairs bureau, 1 of this year, for the following year. That's another $1.3 who thinks it's a good idea to spend public funds in this billion on families. That's whatC arole Taylor was talking way. I defy anybody to find anybody inB ritish Columbia about. That's precisely what she was talking about. who believes in that, who believes that to be the case. And what we have as a choice in this referendum cam- The Premier is defending using public money for paign, as the Premier well knows, is a choice between partisan acts, and people have had enough of that. I the PST and that model of taxation and the HST. think that the Premier, who, as everyone says, is an ef- What the PST does that the HST doesn't do, fective communicator, can do it without wasting public the difference between them as tax models is that the funds on those ads. I don't think the Premier needs the Premier's model, the HST, really sticks it to families, and Stickman to help her. the other is better for families — the PST. That's why, I think that the Premier could run a campaign in fa- as an opposition party that's really advocating for fam- vour of Gordon Campbell's HST to extend his legacy ilies…. That's what we're doing. and protect his legacy and stick it to working families. You know, it is a little bit laughable to hear Liberal She could do that without using partisan ads paid for by members. I mean, this was their position in the last the taxpayers of British Columbia. I'm sure she's capable election campaign. It was against the HST. This was the of that. I'm sure she's capable of running a good cam- position they went to the voters on. Then for them it paign, and I look forward to seeing it. suddenly became the greatest thing that could happen What I think the people of British Columbia find less to the economy. Then they revised their job estimates. acceptable are the tactics of the government, who said Nothing of what they've said on this issue has lasted they'd do one thing months ago, and they're doing a months, never mind years. completely different thing today.I n some respects, what So they went to the public. The member fromK elowna they say about the rate depends on your belief in their went to the public — I know he's talking right now — credibility, and they have no credibility on this ques- and said: "I'm against that HST." That's what his party tion. They haven't from the beginning. They don't have did — right? That was the position of the party. That's any now. People don't believe them. People don't believe why the Premier called what the B.C. Liberal Party did their promises, and I think that is a major issue in this sneaky — right? campaign. [1525] I believe that the people of British Columbia, at the The world changed with the recession. The recession end of the debate, will conclude, as I have concluded, happened. Lehman Brothers went down — I'll just let the that they should vote to scrap the HST. I look forward to member from Kamloops know this — in September 2008. that debate very much. In April 2009 on CKNW the Premier who ran for re- Hon. Chair, I know you're leaning forward, and I'm election, whose mandate this Premier is making these changes always interested in your posture, because as the former based on, told the people of British Columbia at CKNW — Health critic, I have an eye for this sort of thing. the new Premier might have been there — that the deficit was $495 million, and he turned out to be massively wrong The Chair:Thank you, Member. weeks later. That's why we're in this mess today. There's no way they would have gone to theH ST if they A. Dix: I just wanted to, very briefly at the end of those hadn't misled people about the size of the deficit in that estimates — I worked with Mr. Dyble on a few estimates Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7883
— thank the staff of the Premier's office because they have With that, I move that this committee rise…. No, I'm to sit here through our debates, and they assist in the de- not moving that. bates. I just want to thank the entire team over there and Mr. Dyble, whom I have known for many years. I The Chair: Premier, pursuant to the schedule tabled appreciate his contribution. I thank them and thank the by the Government House Leader, I'll now put Vote 10. Premier, and I think the closure motion is about to take effect in this debate, so I'll sit down. Vote 10: Office of the Premier, $9,455,000 — approved.
Hon. C. Clark: I'm also delighted to thank the staff that The Chair:This committee will take a short recess. have supported me here today and through the course of these estimates. Let me say this, just to wrap it up with re- The committee recessed from 3:32 p.m. to 3:44 p.m. spect to some of the issues that the member has raised. You know, I am really looking forward to hearing…. I [D. Horne in the chair.] know what he opposes, but I'm really interested in hear- ing what he supports. I want to hear why he supports ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF it. I want to hear why the member, the Leader of the ENERGY AND MINES Opposition, supports going back to a 12 percent dual (continued) tax, a PST-GST system when the alternative is a 10 per- cent, a much simpler tax that we're proposing. On Vote 24: housing, $345,444,000. [1530] I want to hear him tell us why he's taking these pos- S. Simpson: We're starting into housing estimates, itions. I want to hear him tell British Columbians why and for those few people who are looking for a hockey he supports blowing a $3 billion hole in B.C.'s budget, game and happen to run across us on the way to a hockey how he thinks that's going to make it easier for anyone game, we have about an hour and 15 minutes to deal in government to support families, how he thinks that's with housing estimates here, so it's going to be pretty going to make it easier to support health care and educa- brief. That's the reality of this session of the Legislature. tion and the other vital services that people depend on I'm going to move through a short list of items and us to provide to support British Columbians in need. some questions that relate to those and not attempt the I am very much looking forward to hearing those broader scope of housing estimates that we might have things from the Leader of the Opposition. He's always done if we had significantly more time. so silent about the things that he wants to do, but he [1545] only wants to talk about the things he doesn't want to do. Just working through these, I'll start with the ques- Well, I think maybe the reason he doesn't want to tell us tion of the housing endowment fund. Could the what he wants to do is because he's worried that British minister tell us the current status of the housing endow- Columbians won't like it. Maybe he's worried that his ment fund, which I believe was put in place in 2007 by agenda, if he keeps it to himself long enough, might be the then Finance Minister and was to generate about something that British Columbians will never find out $10 million of interest a year to be used on housing about, and he might find his way back into government. programs? Could the minister tell us what the current If he won't tell us what his agenda is, if he won't tell us status of that fund is, what's been spent, what's been why he supports a 12 percent tax and a PST-GST, if he won't subscribed, etc.? tell us why he supports blowing a $3 billion hole in the budget, maybe British Columbians will just have to go back Hon. R. Coleman: Since the $250 million housing and look at his record when he was in the Premier's office. endowment fund was established, the interest or money Maybe British Columbians will have to go back to that comes off it can go into innovative housing projects the days and remember when we suffered consecutive in British Columbia. The fund has been quite successful, credit downgrades in the province, when there was an actually, since 2007. More than 40 innovative housing over $3 billion deficit that the government had to deal projects or proposals received more than $25 million to with, with the mess they left after years of mismanaging develop nearly 400 affordable housing units and other the people's money. unique projects. If he won't tell us, we could always go back and look The funds will contribute to the development and at his record. Instead of doing that, I very much look operations of 32 supportive housing projects being built forward to seeing the Leader of the Opposition get out around the province in partnership with local govern- there on the hustings in British Columbia and tell us ment and community groups. It will not fund the entire all not just what he opposes, but why he supports the project cost, but it comes in as a partner on innovative ideas he supports. I suspect that when he does, British projects where other partners have come together for Columbians will find out that they're onto his game. funds on those particular projects. 7884 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
Basically, the fund sits there. We get proposals. As we applications that we receive and are eligible, we process. have money, we select the innovative projects through We don't have a situation right now where we can't process B.C. Housing, and then they're funded. and handle any new clients. We have $39.3 million in subsidies annually to date, S. Simpson: Just so I'm correct here that the status and we're still able to take applications for low-income or the operation of the fund…. The fund was, I believe, families who need housing. about $250 million at the outset, of which the interest was being applied towards these projects such as the S. Simpson: My apologies. I missed that first number minister spoke about. Currently what is the value of the — the number of people, the number of families using fund, and how much money is being either taken out of the program currently. the fund or out of interest on the fund to be expended on projects? Hon. R. Coleman: Some 9,370 families.
Hon. R. Coleman: The present value of the balance S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us what the cur- of the fund is $305,253,033, as of May. The fund always rent wait-lists are for B.C. Housing? Maybe if he could stays at $250 million. That can't go below $250 million break that down into wait-lists for seniors, for families, because that's what's making the interest. and so forth. All of the money that's the difference between the $250 million and now — the $55 million — has been commit- [J. McIntyre in the chair.] ted. It has been committed to projects like some of the MOU projects in Vancouver — some of the innovative Hon. R. Coleman: We operate a housing registry, as I think projects we're doing there — across the province as well the member knows. There are 95 member organizations as the other 25 projects I mentioned earlier. It's been that belong to the registry. There are 81 housing provid- funding by commitment. It will go out, as the projects ers included in that registry, including B.C. Housing. get ready to be funded, into specific projects as needed. Basically, the housing provided members of the organ- ization with over 20,000 units across the province. The S. Simpson: I'm going to move on. My sense of this, total across the registry for all categories, the number just so I think I understand this…. When B.C. Housing of applicants on the registry right now, would be about says the fund is fully subscribed, that means it has been 12,397. subscribed down to the $250 million base, and any ex- The number of applicants that were wait-listed just cess or surplus income or value in the fund over that has a couple of years ago was at 15,343. Of the 12,000 that then been allocated or designated onto projects in the are on the wait-lists, there are current tenants in social future. So that constitutes a fully subscribed fund when housing who have requested a transfer to another so- it hits the $250 million base, and whatever is over that cial housing development. They are on the list, although has been allocated or designated? Yeah, the minister is they are housed. nodding. That's great. The number of families.I 'll just give the member some I want to move on to a few issues that relate to some numbers. In 2005-2006 the number of families on the rental housing questions. Looking at the information register was 8,560. Today it's 4,254. here, I believe…. It looks to me like the rental assistance In the seniors category it's 3,256; special needs, 2,519. program currently, excluding seniors and SAFER, has Looking for wheelchair accessibility are 402, and rent just over 10,000 subscribers to that program. Could the supps are 26. These are by households mix, and transfers minister tell us whether that number is accurate, how are the 1,028, which I mentioned earlier, where people many are subscribed, and how much room is available have asked for a transfer. in that program for other potential applicants to the [1555] rental assistance program? [1550] S. Simpson: I think if I add those numbers up, it comes up to just over 8,000 or so. Could the minister tell us…? Hon. R. Coleman: There are 9,370 families on the I think he had said the number was about 12,300 and rental assistance program. This is up from 4,300 families something. Maybe I missed a number in here somewhere in 2007. The average monthly payment per family in the and he can correct me, but where's the other 4,000 or so? rental assistance program is $360, which is an increase from an average benefit back in 2007 of $162. Hon. R. Coleman: It's 11,485 in the actual wait-list by The maximum income — I think a lot of that came household type of queue for a year-to-year comparison from the change in the maximum income ceiling. It was that I read from. In the briefing note it actually says it's raised to get more folks to come in. We raised the in- higher, so I suspect that the queue for it compares and come ceiling from $28,000 to $35,000 in 2008-09. Any is the number. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7885
S. Simpson: Could the minister tell us: based on the scope of this is and what the expectations are that these numbers and the projections of B.C. Housing, how people should plan on. long would the wait-list be? I understand none of this is [1600] specific, but I'm sure that there are projections put for- ward by B.C. Housing on length of wait. How long is the Hon. R. Coleman: I can't quantify for this. I'll give wait for seniors, for families, for special needs based on you two examples. One would be a woman and her chil- these numbers? dren fleeing abuse who would go to a transition house and come out of a transition house after 30 days. They Hon. R. Coleman: It's actually a question that's impos- would bump to the top of the priority list for housing, to sible for me to answer quantifiably. What we have on this be housed somewhere, and probably would be housed list is we have people who are in a particular community within a month or so simply because of their need. and won't move, and so they're on a wait-list for projects On the other side, with somebody just in low income, where there's less opportunity. We have folks that have just a person at a lower income in a community, our first other needs that have to be met through other means. objective, and what we try to do, is to move them to the Some of them are health care issues, but they're still on RAP, the rental assistance program. As we do that, even our list and that sort of thing. if it takes time for their application to get processed, What we do know, though, is that we try and work from the time they apply, if they're eligible, they will with everybody, and it's not really a time-on-the-list get retroactive payment to support their rent wherever comparison that matters. Our lists are based on those in they're living. highest need. So there's a scoring system. Highest need One of the challenges in managing this is also the fact is determined. Those people are eligible first for housing. that not all non-profit housing, even though it might be Anybody that comes into this list — we try and also work subsidized by government, is actually on the registry. So with them to see if we can get them on rent assistance if people will actually go to housing projects in commun- they're interested in rent assistance in the communities ities and apply and could get housing in social housing that they're in as well. So there's always work on the list that we're supporting. There's a lag to find out where with these people ongoing. they are. So there's always this catch-up being done on the list and information of people that are out there. S. Simpson: Maybe I'll just go to the one category, We try to do as best we can, but it's not possible to say: families, for the moment. I appreciate the minister's an- "Family B, if you apply tomorrow with these particular swer. I know that my office probably writes a couple of criteria, you'll be housed within X months or X period letters a month to B.C. Housing, where we get people of time." The reason that's not possible is because there who have unique or particular needs. We will write a let- could be a higher need come along that is determined ter to B.C. Housing and talk about those needs and try by the scoring. There's a much higher need, and so they to provide some supporting documentation. Our hope wouldn't get in as quickly. So it's not possible to quantify is to get them moved up the priority list so that maybe beyond what I explained to the member. they get their housing a little bit sooner, because as the minister says, all of a sudden they get reranked and S. Simpson: I asked the question, I guess, because I they're higher on the priority list. So I understand that. go back to October. I might have done these estimates. I don't like to use the term "a typical family," but a I'm not sure — maybe or maybe not. October 28, 2009, family that's…. And I know we hear from B.C. Housing, in Hansard on page 1744. At that time I think the minis- when we talk to people, that people who apply are told, ter told us that the official wait-list then was about 9,000 and I think told quite fairly, when they put in an applica- people all in at that time and that the average wait time tion that they shouldn't necessarily have an expectation for social housing was estimated — I understand they're — if they're typical, and I use that term carefully — that averages — somewhere maybe as much as three to five they're going to get into B.C. Housing in the next couple years that somebody could be on that list if they didn't of months. That's not a reality because of the demand have any prioritization of any kind. and the list. I'm interested particularly in families. As the min- So maybe this question, just to get a sense of this. In ister will know, we have got a fair amount of families the Lower Mainland, where somebody's prepared to who are living on income assistance. They are not eli- kind of be in the Lower Mainland and not saying, "I've gible for the rent subsidy program on income assistance got to stay in this neighbourhood or that neighbour- at this point, so that avenue is not available to them. A hood" or "I've got to be in Burnaby" and "I won't go large number of them…. Obviously, income assistance to New Westminster" or "I won't go to Surrey…." For money is tight, and particularly in a place like the Lower a family there, what kind of timeline are they waiting Mainland, rental housing is hard to come by. It's hard to for? For six months, for a year, for two years, for one to come by generally for families, let alone hard to come by three years? I'm just trying to get some sense of what for people who have a modest income. 7886 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
So for a family on welfare with a couple of kids, a to get through to where they would determine what family that doesn't have any particular or unique cir- they thought was the art of the possible with regards cumstances other than that they're poor and they're on to density, they have, frankly, bounced around. At one welfare, if they're prepared to live pretty much anywhere, point they were actually at a density that we thought say, this side of the river — the Vancouver-Burnaby– would make good sense, then they went down below, New West side of the river — what should they expect and then they came back up. And ironically, this project in terms of waiting on that list if they have no unique is almost solely for the benefit of the city of Vancouver. circumstances to move them up the list? The money that comes out of Little Mountain al- ready is being spent. We are doing 14 sites in the city of Hon. R. Coleman: I don't have that answer. If I can Vancouver. We're building them today or getting them get it — we'll go back and look at our statistics — I'll ready to be built today, and money coming into Little try and get it for the member. But we don't have it here Mountain is helping to pay the capital on all of those today. projects plus the 224 social housing sites. So any money made on Little Mountain is actually going into projects. S. Simpson: I appreciate that. I would appreciate it if We took a leap of faith and stepped up to the plate with the minister could ask his officials to get me a ballpark the city of Vancouver and said, "We're going to go do number on what that circumstance would be. I would these 14 sites," thinking that their process would be a appreciate that. little quicker. I want to move to a specific project, and that would be Even though the process has been slower than we an- the Little Mountain project in Vancouver. As we know, ticipated, we've still invested the capital in the city. So the that project moved forward. I can't even remember all sites we're building now in the city of Vancouver…. The ar- the dates. rangement we have with the Ministry of Finance is they're [1605] allowing us to finance those on the basis that there's going I think that it might have been 2007 when it first got to be future outcomes from Little Mountain that will pay talked about. Well, 2007, I guess, is when the federal down that amount of money we'll have to borrow. government transferred it over to the province and gave On the second piece of this, there has been a policy the province ownership of all of that. planning program led by the city of Vancouver now for the At that point — I believe it was in 2007 there — the redevelopment. An advisory committee has been formed, province and the city reached an understanding on a and there are open houses being held in the neighbour- redevelopment of that site. It was going to be redevel- hood. Currently, the development team is looking at oped for market housing, but the 224 units of social working toward starting the first phase of the project. housing would be replaced on the site with roughly the If they can get past this, there are a couple of little same composition and the same number of bedrooms hurdles, from what I understand, that are being dis- as existed under the Little Mountain project, including, I cussed. I don't go to all the development meetings — I think it was, close to 190 of those units being committed don't go any of them, actually, because it's not my job for families. It was 184 units committed to families. — but Holborn is prepared to move forward. I think the At that time, I think that the hope was that by sometime density that's there on the table now will make the pro- in 2010, in mid-2010, they'd actually start construction. ject function fine. Our commitment, of course, as the Now we know, of course, that the development process member knows, is to pay for the 224 units in the first has gone very slowly with Holborn. The debate seems phase of the project. to be over density questions — not exclusively, but it is over density questions and whether Holborn wants to S. Simpson: I understand those comments. We know build the density that the surrounding community isn't that this advisory committee has had its moments. I be- comfortable with. But for whatever reason, the city and lieve from September to March it didn't meet. For over Holborn have not found enough common ground to be six months — for whatever reason — it couldn't find its able to move the development process forward. way to meet. It had been meeting prior to that on pretty So the question that I have is: is the minister or the close to a monthly basis. I think it reflected in the March minister's officials….? Since there is the commitment by meeting that the delays stemmed from significant dis- the province to rebuild the 224 units of housing, is the agreements that they were having trouble resolving. government still a participant in any way in this initia- Now I hope the minister's comments…. Maybe that's tive in order to be able to meet the obligation that the now…. Maybe progress has been made, and they're minister has made to get these 224 units built, I believe, moving ahead, and I accept that. as soon as is reasonably possible? [1610] My biggest concern is the loss of family housing here. Hon. R. Coleman: One of the biggest challenges I stand to be corrected on this, but I don't believe the 14 this year has been the city of Vancouver. As we've tried sites — certainly any of the housing opening in the next Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7887
number of months — the 500 units or so that I think put the deal on the table, or the province and Holborn ne- are opening up over the next few months — are family gotiated the deal. That's fine, but the problem is that they housing. I think they're all targeted housing. might have negotiated a deal where they've now put them- I'm concerned about restoring the family housing in selves in a box where they may not be able to get the return the city of Vancouver that's been lost. We all know the that they believe they need to make that work for them. I cost of family rental in Vancouver, and it's pretty chal- guess time will tell as that plays itself out. lenging for people unless you have a pretty good income. Maybe I'll ask one last question in relation to that, I accept all of the comments about the city having to find and it does come to that situation. I understand that a resolution with Holborn. the contractual agreement is a private agreement. But The ministry and the minister made commitments to my question would be this. If the city and Holborn can- restore those 224 units and restore the 184 or 185 units not come to an agreement on development, primarily of family housing. All I'm asking at this point is: what around density…? If they can't reach an agreement are the expectations of the government on how we get that's satisfactory to the developer, to Holborn, does that those units back on the ground, and can we expect this have implications for the agreement with the province, by 2013 or 2014? When might we get these units on the in terms of the financial agreement with the province? ground for people? And if so, what happens there? [1615] Hon. R. Coleman: First of all, you know, the city of Vancouver…. You're right. The 14 sites…. The priority Hon. R. Coleman: Just to the member's concerns, to the city put on the relationship on housing early on in start with. The process to put this up was a bid process this particular game with regards to this site and the that was done for us by a consultant, which was Colliers. money they wanted invested was focused on the 14 sites We had bidders, other bidders other than Holborn. We in Vancouver, particularly for people with mental health had lots of bidders. Holborn happened to be the higher and addictions, homeless or at risk of homeless, that bidder but not so substantially that there would have they wanted those units to…. That would be the priority, been a difference between these things. and we worked with them on that as a result, because We have a firm contract of purchase and sale. We have that's what their priority was. a substantial non-refundable deposit. There is no out- Everybody that was at Little Mountain has been clause, so if frustration of the agreement took place, we housed and continues to be housed and supported by would be keeping a substantial multi-million-dollar de- government. That will be the case until they have the posit. The land is still owned by RHCP , which is the arm opportunity to decide whether they want to move back of B.C. Housing that holds all of our titles. So it hasn't onto that site when it's complete. been transferred to them, and there is no transfer of title If I could describe frustrations around this particular until the project starts and they start to dispose of units file, it is how fast the city seems to be able to manage to or pieces of it. fast-track some of these other projects and, frankly, have I think it's a very workable deal. We believe that we're not been fast-tracking on this particular project. I don't very close to the number that will work for all parties know why that is the case, but I do think the city needs on density, which could move it forward quicker. And to recognize that the benefit they're receiving on the 14 in addition to that, because we're coming back in and sites is directly as a result of our decision to redevelop paying for 224 units of family housing, it actually gives Little Mountain. We will build the 224 family units back the project a presale, which basically also makes its com- into Little Mountain when we have the opportunity to mercial viability quite strong. build the site. If they could fast-track quicker, we'll be I'm not concerned about the commercial viability of there quicker. the project at the density that I'm hearing about and nei- ther should Holborn. Knowing the market as I do and S. Simpson: I know from conversations I've had knowing the development community as I do and having with people in the development sector and private de- conversations with folks, we will get there. But if they velopers in Vancouver that many of them would say the chose to decide that they didn't want to continue, we'll challenge around the Little Mountain site is that, in fact, take the deposit. There are paces along the way that they Holborn might not have done a very good deal. The had to meet certain benchmarks. Should they decide they province might have got a good deal money-wise, but can't meet a benchmark or not, we'll be in a position to Holborn overestimated their capacity to build on that have money that will more than give us a return for just site and overprojected their density possibilities on that letting them have an opportunity to bid to buy the land. site and maybe misjudged the best market opportunity But we do have a firm contract of purchase and sale, — a number of things there. which they cannot…. There is not escape clause for them, Other developers I've talked to said it was a deal that not and we have a substantial — and I do mean substantial a lot of other people would have necessarily done. Holborn — deposit. 7888 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
S. Simpson: I would ask the minister what the de- to get going. But if they were, then we would still have posit is, but he's not going to tell me, I guess. But if he the land because we own the title. The title will not get wants to tell me, that would be great. transferred until we're paid — right? — and we would With that project, the minister talks about benchmarks still have the substantial deposit. along the way that would be in place. Could the minister We could choose to pursue for the price difference give us some sense of what the nature of those bench- that they have, if they did decide that they weren't going marks is? I don't need specifics, if that's problematic, but to close on the specific dates, but then that would be a what's the nature of the benchmarks that Holborn has to lawsuit decision at that particular point in time, a com- meet to show that they're continuing progress here in a mercial decision. way that's satisfactory to this agreement? And the minis- Frankly, my expectation, in having met the family ter, of course, can tell me the number, if he'd like. and having met the representatives of the company…. There's a pretty strong honour there. They know they Hon. R. Coleman: The closing date is subject to when have a deal with us. They know they have a contract to the zoning is complete. If it isn't done by a specific date, purchase and sale. They want to get on with the project. which I am told I cannot disclose because it's confidential If we can get over a couple of these little hurdles of the to the agreement, then we would be basically terminat- city, this thing can move pretty quickly. ing the vehicle agreement and keeping our money. I was wrong on one piece of that. On the drop-dead S. Simpson: I believe that B.C. Housing does this re- date they have to close. It's not a question that they could search, and I guess we'll find out. Could the minister tell terminate the agreement. They actually have to buy the us whether he has an assessment of how many families — property. So it's either at zoning or at the specific date. and we're talking families here in British Columbia — are They have to close. There's no out for them. They have a paying in excess of 30 percent of their income for rent? I firm contract of purchase and sale. use that number because I believe that's the number that's [1620] been established federally by CMHC as affordability. How many families has B.C. Housing, presum- S. Simpson: So that I understand that now. That in ably, determined are paying more than the level of fact there's…. Is what the minister's saying…? Because affordability? the minister, in his first answer….I understand that this could be a clarification. Hon. R. Coleman: Well, B.C. Housing doesn't do that The minister had said: "We got a significant deposit research. That research is usually done by CMHC, and in place. They have certain obligations and benchmarks we don't have their data with us today, but we can get it along the way. If they don't meet those, we have the abil- for the member. ity, potentially, through our arm of government, to take that property back, to retain and keep the deposit, take it S. Simpson: I believe the numbers I've seen, just back if they don't meet the obligations at the other side." looking at poverty-related numbers…. We have about Actually, I believe the minister said: "We still own the in excess of 100,000 families that have real financial property. They have rights to the property under this challenges in the province — probably numbers more agreement, but they've got to meet obligations and pay than that, but a significant number of families — and for those rights down the road in terms of paying this we know that about 10,000 of those families probably in off." some way, shape or form are getting some support from So if they walk away — that's the only thing — then the government by rental assistance, and the others have we, being the government, keep the cash. They could a challenge. walk away or else they have to buy this thing out. Was Now, in the past — I believe it was in last year's esti- that it or is the minister saying that they have no right mates — the minister and I had the debate around family but they have to buy it out? housing versus homelessness versus targeted housing. [1625] Hon. R. Coleman: I will try and clarify it. We have The minister at that point, in Hansard in April of 2010, a firm contract to purchase and sale. The closing date said: "We're not building a bunch of family housing, be- is established in two ways. You either close on the day cause we have a rent assistance program." He said that that the zoning is complete or you can close on a specific program was where people with low incomes would go to date in the contract. That's the date you have to pay for get support. "As a result of the rent assistance program and the land or pay for the project. improvements to SAFER and the rent subsidies put in for If they were to walk away, which we don't antici- the homeless issue, our wait-lists have gone down…" etc. pate, by the way…. We have no indication whatsoever. But essentially, the position was…. I respect this. This They're very substantial. Their assets are very substan- minister has taken the view previously that family hous- tial. I've met with them recently, and they're very keen ing was not on the top of the priority list for housing. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7889
Homelessness was very high on the list. Some support ticular area of the community. So when they first started for seniors who were in need of a fair amount of support building homes with basement suites, the average price was there on the list. Family housing wasn't. for a two-bedroom basement suite was $1,250 a month. I now know, of course…. I believe that it was on May Today the average two-bedroom basement suite is $850 20. I have the release that B.C. Housing…. I believe that a month. What happened was…. The market happened. the minister was there with the Premier to open Como Basically, a bunch of housing was produced. It brought Lake Gardens, which was a facility of housing for single down the affordability. moms there. We know that the Premier has talked about It works for us, because it lowers the amount that families first as being a priority. we would have to subsidize a family in a two-bedroom So my question to the minister is: is there any shift in suite or a three-bedroom basement suite. That lets us do the priorities of the ministry and B.C. Housing in terms more, but it actually helps the family that is also upstairs. of where the emphasis and resources will go with fam- They're able to get a mortgage helper to buy their home ilies versus what has been an emphasis on homelessness and keep it. So they help us with the housing. and supported housing in the last few years? Is there any The beauty of the RAP program, and the reason I'm suggestion of a change of emphasis related to families? a big fan of that as a family initiative…. I think we can always look at other ways to do stuff with it. I think that Hon. R. Coleman: I just want to give the member as we go into the budget cycle this fall, I'll try and bring some information before I answer the question. This some new ideas to refresh the program and see what else is just some actual for people housed in the month of to do. March 2011 in directly managed housing only. That's The beauty of it is that we don't build housing and housing that we manage at B.C. Housing. We can give say: "That's the form of housing we're going to need for you a wait-list. the next generation." The mistake we made in building In the Fraser region there were 62 placements. The purpose-built housing for decades was that we all of a average wait time for those folks was 14.5 months. In the sudden woke up and found out that the demograph- Interior region there were 13 placements, and the aver- ics had changed, and the housing we built didn't fit the age wait time was 4.1 months. In the northern regions people that needed the housing. there were 32 placements, and the average wait time was [1630] 7.9 months. In the Vancouver coastal region there were The rent assistance program and SAFER. The magic 84 placements, and the average wait time was 18 months. of those two programs is that somebody can make the In the Vancouver Island region — 18 placements, and choice where they want to live and in what community the average wait time was 18 months. So provincewide and get the subsidy, versus saying: "You all have to go there were 209 placements, and the average time on the live in a specific social housing project" — or whatever list was 15 months. you want to call it — "because we only have housing over I think we made the shift on housing to families…. I there." The ability is to integrate people into the com- know we've had this debate before, so I don't want to…. munity. I'm a big fan of it. I know we've talked about it We don't have the time to have the debate. But with the before. almost 10,000 people that are on rent assistance today, So we are able take more and more intake on this. We and given the previous discussion we just had about can bring in more families. We're obviously…. We al- Little Mountain and how long it takes to do something, ways look at the income thresholds each time we do a we would have had to deploy about $3 billion in capital budget, and we look at how that would affect…. to build units for all those almost-10,000 families. I am actually, personally, as the minister, very proud of We would have been… I would suspect — given the the RAP program, the rent assistance program, because time it's taken to do the stuff we've been doing even I know I could not have housed those 9,000-plus people on the homeless strategy in communities across B.C., or families by trying to build it up purposely. Find the where they've given us land and they've sped things up land, zone it, put up with all the community push-back — that since we started the program in 2006, we would whenever we do social housing, and get it done, versus still have about 6,000-plus families that wouldn't be get- getting them housed with the money to support them. ting rent assistance. If you think about it, if you were a single mom with Today they get the rent…. So the priority is still, for a six-year-old kid in 2006 and you went with rental as- families, the rent assistance program. If communities sistance, that child's now 11. In some communities we could wake up, like communities like Surrey and Langley might be five more years to actually get the housing in particular have, and do some innovative things, we built. That would mean the child would be 16. could actually solve this pretty quick. So they've had an opportunity for better affordabil- I'll give you one example, which is the Clayton Heights ity, better outcomes over the period of time within the area of Surrey. Surrey allowed for coach houses and marketplace for that family, versus trying to say: "Let's basement suites in the homes that were built in this par- just go build something and cut the ribbon." 7890 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
The Chair: Minister, just a gentle reminder that once Columbia, the fact of the matter is that there are still folks you've been recognized and on your feet, the use of elec- who will need our assistance for the supportive housing tronic devices is not allowed. that they need. Our shift that we've done has been to…. Frankly, I think any son or daughter, any person who Hon. R. Coleman: Only in question period it's not has a family that has a mental health issue and addic- allowed. tion and is homeless or on our streets, is family. I think a family agenda includes the entire family. The Chair: Excuse me. Not allowed once you're on Through the rental assistance program and through the floor, when you're recognized. You can use it as a our initiatives with the SROs, through our initiatives resource here, but once you've been recognized and are with the supportive housing that we've done, I've seen speaking, you're not allowed to use them. families reunited. I've seen people who've moved past their addictions, got help for their mental illness and Hon. R. Coleman: Then I wouldn't have been able to have reunited with families. Sometimes they've been give the member the information. apart from each other for ten years. [1635] The Chair: You'll have to find a different way. [D. Horne in the chair.] S. Simpson: I guess I want to come back a little bit to this question again. I don't want to debate rental assistance I don't see a shift.I see us concentrating to continue to programs, the minister and I. I accept that program, and help the most vulnerable, to build for the most vulner- 10,000 people are getting help out of it. That's all good. able who cannot be helped in the marketplace. I see us We've had our differences in the past about where continuing to expand the rental assistance program for the priorities should be in terms of direct build. I think families that can be helped in the marketplace, because we're talking here about the money that the government that's certainly a priority. We actually have 80,000 units chooses to invest, either directly or with non-profit part- in British Columbia of social housing. A large piece of ners and other government-level partners, in building that is family, some of it is seniors, and then we have our housing that's purpose-built. supportive. We have the housing market itself where we I have no interest in revisiting the debate we've had have almost 10,000 people with rent assistance. over the last couple of years. All I'm trying to determine So we will continue to build on this, because I think, here…. We know the realities. The reality is that all gov- actually, when we started it in 2006, it has been a tre- ernments are affected by the views of their leader, and mendous thing for the government to support. This year the new Premier has put forward families first as clearly alone it will be $300 million in capital in supportive her emphasis and priority. She has enunciated that time housing for people with mental health issues, addictions and time again. and homelessness across the province of B.C., in com- The question I'm just asking here is whether that is munities all across B.C. — Campbell River, Nanaimo, going to mean a shift in terms of the direction that the Victoria, the Interior, all throughout that and, as the ministry — and, presumably, B.C. Housing as its agent member opposite reminded me, in Sechelt, as well, be- to build housing, to deal with the housing file, the min- cause we have actually opened a project in Sechelt. ister's agent to do that…. Is that going to change the I do think that we are building a plan. It's really about emphasis in terms of where future resources go — not the integrated package, and it does include families. It what's been done in the past, but in terms of future re- includes families that are affected by mental health sources, in terms of direct build or partnerships for issues and addiction, but it also includes families for direct builds with non-profits and others? whom, just because of their income, rent assistance can I'm just trying to get a sense of whether there's any help a tremendous amount. shifting in terms of the emphasis here from where it's been before. I don't think that diminishes the rent assist- N. Simons: My question is about the Pacific autism ance program in any way, shape or form from what the family centre. The Ministry for Housing has possibly minister said about the value of that. committed $20 million for the construction of a building to house as yet unknown facilities or programs and ser- Hon. R. Coleman: The Premier today is very happy vices. Can the Minister tell me if there was ever a needs with the housing strategy and its outcomes. She's very assessment done for that program and if a business plan happy with the results on the homeless file for mental was ever conducted? If so, could we see a copy of that? health and addictions and is aware of the fact that we're really not done yet. Hon. R. Coleman: The job that we were given asH ousing Although we've made tremendous progress and we've was not to do the business plan for the centre. That was put a dent in this file all across the province of British done through the autism community in conjunction, I Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7891
think, with Children and Family Development at the or based on the request from certain individuals who time, with regards to an autism centre that would then simply thought this would be a good idea? do outreach to the rest of the province. It would provide [1640] respite, some housing, for people with autistic children coming to Vancouver for treatment. That would be Hon. R. Coleman: I think it's completely disingenu- able to reach out into other communities as part of the ous to think that this was just because somebody had a centre. good idea. This was in the throne speech in 2008. We've The job we were given is basically to see if we could worked with the autism community, and not just any find a site, get a design and then, obviously, government one particular group. There's aC anucks autism network. will fund the $20 million, which is committed. So what There are a number of other autism groups that all came we've done on the Pacific autism centre, Member, is to the table when as the minister I was asked to see if we this. We went to work with the non-profit societies. We could find a location. identified what they thought was the best location for The money did not come from the Housing budget. an autism centre in B.C., in the Vancouver area because It's separate money that's in the capital budget that we wanted to be close to Children's Hospital, Sunny Hill, would come when the project would be going ahead. It that sort of thing. wasn't gifted to anybody.I t will be into the development They all felt that the SunnyH ill site was the best site. It of that particular project, that purpose-built project, took a tremendous amount of work to put together the and the budget has been identified throughout the vari- MOUs, to get control of the site at the Sunny Hill site ous ministries affected. and have future opportunities on the site where Sunny It will be Health, Ministry of Children and Family Hill actually exists in Vancouver when they would move Development, or Social Development. If there was a to the new Children's Hospital. housing component that required subsidy, we would So what we've managed to do is get a development- be involved in the subsidies to people who needed sub- phase project set up in that area of the city. The city is sidies on the location if it was social housing. This is a going to sign a new 60-year lease with the PacificA utism collaboration across government. I know my piece of it Centre Society, and the Children's Foundation will then well, which is that we found the right site. The whole lease the building space from the Pacific autism centre. community said that's where they wanted it. That's The Children's Foundation will have suitable accom- where the autism community told us they wanted to go. modations found for them during the construction They thought that was the best site to go. process. The future development, which is in the same We had other opportunities on other sites, but this area, on the same site, would be phase 2. That would was the site they wanted. We went to work, and it took be led by the province, through B.C. Housing, in part- a lot of work — probably a good year's work — to get a nership with the city of Vancouver to create affordable new lease with the city, work through some old things market rental housing for seniors, families and the like, that were on title to try and make this thing work so and continue for people in need, including those who we'd have a site to build this. We now have the site that are on respite. will go through a zoning process, and we'll deploy the It's actually a multiphase project. But for the aut- capital at the appropriate time to build it from govern- ism centre, our job that we were given was to get a site ment. But it's not part of the Housing budget. and firm it up so that this thing could go ahead. That's what we did. Our job is basically, at that point, complete, N. Simons: That contradicts what the Minister of except that we will watch it through the development Social Development told me in estimates not that long process. ago. I believe that there's nothing disingenuous about a good idea. It's a question of whose good idea it was. N. Simons: I know that there was one particular so- I would take exception with the characterization of ciety that has a number of board members who are, community-based or groups of autism advocates com- obviously, friends of government, who were gifted, es- ing together. sentially, $20 million. There's been no identification of There's a considerable amount of concern within the operating funds, and I'm just wondering. The direction autism community, as well as the other developmental must have come from somewhere. How did Housing disability community, because of the absolute lack of suddenly decide to use $20 million out of its budget to front-line support for people with disabilities. When build something that, essentially, right now has abso- they see $20 million going into a new building to house lutely no residential component at all? already existing programs, people look twice. If they fol- The argument that it's going near Sunny Hill to be low the money, they'll see that it's one society that has close to the hospital… As I understand it, they're mov- requested this money. ing away. I'm just wondering about the entire process of Former Premier Campbell, in his last public an- developing this program. Based on what? Based on need, nouncement, was to suggest that this was going to be 7892 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
going ahead. No public consultation took place ex- they do go away and come back with different ideas from cept from the proponent's perspective. It was Lower time to time. They are not, perhaps, always cohesive — Mainland–based; 65 percent of the respondents were would be a fair description. from the Lower Mainland. The challenge is that you were told by these groups Meanwhile, we have people in Fort St. John, in to look at other places in Canada, like in Ontario where Kamloops, in Prince George — people all across the there's the Surrey centre, which is an autism centre province — who are wondering how a Lower Mainland where a number of programs exist in conjunction with facility housing provincial services that already exist in each other. They bring together, like we were…. What apparently adequate buildings can't continue to operate we're going to try and do is have Simon Fraser University thus. The fact that there is no residential component to as part of this, because they can bring in their autism re- this facility…. I think it's like a moving target. Nobody search piece. We can bring in the treatment piece. We really knows what it's going to be about. Nobody knows can bring in a program piece. where the funding is coming from. The idea of having it all in one place in an autism cen- I've seen briefing notes that say that $20 million is tre is to have the resources in place so that families from coming from the Ministry for Housing. In fact, I've seen anywhere can have the best information available. Then, a briefing note saying that the Ministry for Housing has as you build the centre of that information, the outreach already spent $500,000 on the planning process. is into Fort St. John and into Prince George with other I think that the questions being raised by the com- offices and the ability to go in and connect on line into munity about this particular project at this particular the data, to talk to doctors, to make arrangements to time, when there seems to be such a lack of appropri- come down with your kids for respite. ate services for people with various disabilities…. That's There's a whole package that will get designed around why they're questioning it. I think the public deserves this. I'm not doing that in this ministry — right? But I some answers that actually indicate why this centre was believe in it. I believe in it because I've talked to families even conceived of and who put it forward. with kids with autism that say that one of the biggest If you speak to any of the advocates like the B.C. frustrations they had when they found out their child Association for Community Living, Moms on the Move had autism was running around to multiple places try- and MOMs network, which is the largest advocate group ing to find out and get answers for their kid. for people with autism and disabilities, they are saying They said: "Why can't you have a place where you that they have some serious concerns about it. have the specialists, you have the ability to do the test- Can the minister tell me specifically where that ing, you have the ability to determine the treatment, you $500,000 has come from so far and where the $20 mil- have the ability to give us advice, and you have the abil- lion and the $15 million operating costs…? There doesn't ity for us sometimes to come down and go to the doctors seem to be a plan. There doesn't seem to have been a and have respite as well?" So that was the beginning of needs assessment. There doesn't seem to have been a this thing, the genesis. business plan. There doesn't seem to be any actual gov- I happen to have a sister that is an expert in autism, ernment involvement in the expenditure of $20 million, so I've been hearing it in the ear about autism and the possibly $35 million, on an ongoing basis. This is raising need for this type of centre in British Columbia for a lot serious concerns, especially at a time when such signifi- longer than I've been the Minister of Housing. My sis- cant needs are being expressed by people throughout ter would be able to explain to you the benefit of these the province. things much better than I can. The business…. [1645] I'm just wondering if the minister knows what is going N. Simons: When are her estimates? to be housed in this facility and whether he understands how far along this project is. Hon. R. Coleman: Unfortunately, she lives in Toronto. But the reality is this. We took on our piece of this pro- Hon. R. Coleman: I want to be clear here. The mem- ject. We designed the building. We spent the money ber said in the initial question that I took the money out — the $500,000 the member has mentioned. That was of the housing budget to do this. We did not. We've been to get the work done on the land, to get done with the given money to do the predevelopment stuff over and leases, to design a building, to get to the point. above our budget, to do this particular project, to man- The fortunate thing for you — to make the comment age it. about the previous Premier in his last day running this We were given the task of putting together the groups, out the door — is actually unfortunate for him but having a talk with them about the needs, and believe fortunate for us, because it was only the week or two me, it wasn't just one autism group. I've actually sat in a before that we finally nailed down the lease and the ar- meeting where they were all there — right? — and they rangements with the city of Vancouver — the long-term were all wanting the autism centre. But what they do is arrangements. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7893
The autism community wanted us to announce it be- Hon. R. Coleman: Posted on the residential tenancy cause they were excited. It was finally coming to fruition branch's website are decisions. They do post decisions in a location. They knew something was going to hap- by category, including rent increases. On the first part pen. So that's how that came about. of your comments with regards to renovictions, they [1650] have to have a permit in order to do what the member described. S. Simpson: I think we have about maybe ten min- But we should all be aware of something, and that is utes or so left.I 'm going to try to push through a couple this. The municipal taxes across B.C. are going up every of issues here in a pretty focused way. The first one is in year by 4, 6, 7 and 8 percent — whatever the number is. regard to residential tenancy matters. I have a couple of Water costs are going up every year. And our system does questions. not allow that pass-through to a tenant. The challenge First, could the minister tell us whether there are any with that will be not today but in the future. I actually plans to make changes around current rent review pro- remember back having debates with the former Premier cesses, around rental amounts and rent reviews and Ujjal Dosanjh on residential tenancy, when I told him those things or — and I understand we don't talk about that some of the things we were doing were going to future legislation — any plans around changes or con- cause a rental crisis in B.C. sultations related to residential tenancy changes? We have at this point reached a new crisis I see coming at us — and that is, the older buildings we have in B.C. Hon. R. Coleman: There are no immediate plans that that have a certain type of elevator will soon be made, by I know of on legislation. We're always trying to look to a certain date, to change their elevators. That's a $50,000 how we could adapt to meet the market demands that to $150,000 cost per building. They will be told to do are facing us from time to time on residential tenancy, that because these are older technology and they have to but there's nothing in front of me right now. be replaced. As that starts to accumulate on a landlord, we will start to see people exiting the business if the cost The Chair: As the member has pointed out, I caution gets so high that they can't actually pay their bills. That's on asking about pending legislation. a significant concernI have for the cost that affects hous- ing, particularly in the rental marketplace in B.C. S. Simpson: Well, I was sure the minister would tell me That's whyI 'm happy to see what Surrey is doing with that he wasn't going to talk about it anyways, hon. Chair. densities and suites and that sort of thing to create some The minister would know that there's been ongoing new rental housing, because since the early 1980s we concern related to residential tenancy matters around a haven't built new rental housing in any number in B.C. series of things, around things like geographic rent in- We used to build about 8,000 or 9,000 units a year. We're creases, around what's commonly called renovictions, lucky if we're building a thousand. The challenge for that evictions that have been related to renovations that is we just have an inventory going this way and no in- may or may not be legitimate and sometimes there are ventory going that way. evictions. [1655] We know the residential tenancy branch has in a That's why — and we've had this discussion — I keep number of instances overturned those decisions, those encouraging the federal government, to say: "Will you attempts by landlords to make those changes when the please take off or do something on the flow-through tax residential tenancy branch has determined that they costs on this type of housing so people can actually fix weren't reasonable. They have overturned them, and their buildings up and get some capital recaptured?" If they have restored the tenants to their original situa- they don't do that, we're going to see a continued deteri- tion and made them whole. We know there have been oration of the product, and we will not see new buildings a few of those instances, and I'm sure there have also being built for purpose-built rental housing. been instances where the residential tenancy branch has deemed them to be reasonable requests and has sup- S. Simpson: I think we know we have a challenge ported the landlord, and that's all fine. around purpose-built rental housing. The minister talks The issueI have is.... It's my understanding that in terms about the effects of these properties and property values, of the number of decisions that are made and the nature and part of that's reflected in what have been dramatic of those decisions — i.e., the nature of what the cases increases in the values of the properties that are being were and the decisions were made — that information is held as an investment. Sometimes it's a business with not readily available or public. Is that information avail- rentals. The property values have been going up dra- able? Is it public? Or can it be made available so people matically, too, so the asset has become extremely more can get some sense of the scope of applications around valuable for people in many of these cases. rent increases for geographic purposes, renovictions — Going back, though, to the case, and I wonder…. My what those are? And why isn't that made available? first question had been about whether there were plans 7894 British Columbia Debates Thursday, June 2, 2011
to make modifications related to the rent review process very minute — the status of second-stage housing in this and what is allowable and not allowable. The minister province — the number of units that are available, the talked about increased property tax values and those expectation around any new units that are expected to over and above. Is the minister contemplating allowing be built in communities and any plans that the ministry additional rent increases related to other factors that has to add or to advance further second-stage housing maybe haven't been a consideration in the past? in the province?
Hon. R. Coleman: As I said earlier, we do from time Hon. R. Coleman: There were 13,000 women and to time look at the challenges that are facing the industry children who were housed through transition hous- or facing the rental side, and we listen to the residential ing programs in '09-10, and $31 million was spent for tenancy branch. I have nothing in front of me right now, transition housing programs annually. The second- but that doesn't mean nothing will ever happen down stage housing initiative that takes place is actually a the road either. relationship between B.C. Housing and housing service I mean, you have to recognize that in the housing providers across the province. market things are never the same — maybe year to year [1700] or every three to five years or whatever the case may be. It was actually an initiative that was started under a So to say there would never be any changes would just former government. Quite frankly, when we talked about be disingenuous of me. The fact of the matter is there's it back in '95-96…. I remember doing it in estimates, nothing in front of me right now. suggesting to the minister that we should use some of our existing stock if we had vacancies for higher prior- S. Simpson: I'll just ask one more question. It really is ity situations like that — second stage housing, which in a request for information post this meeting. It is whether many cases becomes permanent housing, because we're we could get information in regard to, again coming actually moving directly into a social housing unit. back to those decisions that are posted, whether there's We'll see what numbers I have and see if I can get the ability to get information that specifically talks about them for the member. applications that involved geographic rent increases, in- volved evictions for renovation purposes or for the purposes of caretakers where there's been an appeal of The Chair: Pursuant to the schedule tabled by the those. Government House Leader earlier this week, I'll now Obviously it's a matter of when the tenant has said, call Vote 24. "I don't think this is reasonable," and they've appealed the process, and then there's been some kind of deci- Vote 24: housing, $345,444,000 — approved. sion arbitrated or adjudicated by the branch. Would it be possible to get a list, say, of those for the last year? Hon. R. Coleman: Since these are the last estimates, I'm going to go through a number of votes that are for Hon. R. Coleman: We can't do that, because that's things like legislation, the Auditor General and those not how we characterize or how we do our data. If it had sorts of things, which need to also be dealt with as part gone to judicial review under the Supreme Court, we'd of the estimates process. be able to get you that information, or that information would probably be available. ESTIMATES: Before we break, for the member for North Island, I LEGISLATION do have a briefing note that I could share with the mem- ber with regards to the Transition House Society project Vote 1: legislation, $68,862,000 — approved. in Campbell River, if she wants to stick around for a second after this. ESTIMATES: OFFICERS OF THE LEGISLATURE S. Simpson: Well, hon. Chair, I'm going to use that last two minutes I've got, you know, because that's the Vote 2: Auditor General, $15,752,000 — approved. situation we're in. Maybe the briefing note that the minister is going to Vote 3: Conflict of Interest Commissioner, $480,000 make available…. That does directly link to one of the — approved. last questions I have. It is around transition housing and, more essentially, the second-stage housing in the Vote 4: Elections B.C., $8,134,000 — approved. province. Could the minister make available or commit to make Vote 5: Information and Privacy Commissioner, available — and we don't need, obviously, to get it this $4,906,000 — approved. Thursday, June 2, 2011 British Columbia Debates 7895
Vote 6: Merit Commissioner, $1,062,000 — approved. Hon. R. Coleman: I move that the committee rise, report resolution and completion of the following es- Vote 7: Ombudsperson, $5,372,000 — approved. timates: Office of the Premier; Ministry of Energy and Mines, housing, Vote 24; legislation, Vote 1; and statu- Vote 8: Police Complaint Commissioner, $2,796,000 tory officers, Votes 2 to 9. And I ask leave to sit again. — approved. Motion approved. Vote 9: Representative for Children and Youth, $7,317,000 — approved. The committee rose at 5:04 p.m.
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