Audrey Cavenecia Coming to you live from Industrious in downtown Seattle.

Pete Carroll I'm Pete Carroll.

Audrey Cavenecia And I'm Audrey Cavenecia.

Pete Carroll And this is Amplify Voices: Conversations from the Heart, a podcast where our goal is to really truly listen.

Audrey Cavenecia We're inviting some of the most inspiring thinkers, dreamers and changemakers alive today to come on in and speak their truth.

Pete Carroll To speak what's on their heart.

Audrey Cavenecia Everyone's got a story to tell. We're all these complex, multifaceted beings, and we have so much to contribute,

Pete Carroll But being truly seen and heard for who you are. That's rare.

Audrey Cavenecia As we like to say, we see you, we hear you and we love you.

Pete Carroll Welcome to Amplify Voices.

Audrey Cavenecia Let's meet our guest.

Pete Carroll Anna Malaika Tubbs is an author, advocate, consultant, educator and longtime activist supporting the rights of women of color. Her groundbreaking new book, The Three Mothers: How the Mothers of Martin Luther King, Jr. Malcolm X in James Baldwin Shaped a Nation. It shows just what intersectionality really means. We are so excited for you to hear this conversation with Anna Malaika Tubbs.

1 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Audrey Cavenecia Hi!

Anna Malaika Tubbs Hello.

Pete Carroll Hi Anna.

Audrey Cavenecia Listen to this. This is so cool. Um, Pete and I were talking yesterday. And I think I had mentioned on Instagram when I texted, oh, no, I don't think I did. But we definitely told Selena that Pete's wife, you were the recommendation from Pete's wife. Oh, wow, her name is Glena. And she's just completely in love with your work. And so then that's how right Pete that's you came out knowing about Anna through Glena. And then on top of it a quite a time ago, like over 10 years ago, Pete had been connected with some work that he was doing with a foundation and going out into Watts. And getting to know the community. And through that he started working with a particular mother named Kathy Wooten. And she still is having lost both her sons to gang violence. And she's part of a really large group of women who've also lost their sons. So they all band together and just empower one another, and watch over the community and just drive around. And they're just matriarchs for, you know, the entire community. And they do something for Mother's Day. And so Pete and Glenna, bought 400 of your books to send to all the women. And so when you got set up and scheduled. I didn't even know all this. We were just talking about this last night. Isn't that amazing?

Anna Malaika Tubbs I had no idea either. This is so funny, because my publicist thought that Pete and I somehow knew each other. He was like a mentor of mine or something. He's like, yeah, you know, your mentor, Pete bought all these books, because we did a donation drive last month for Women's History Month. And so I think he assumed, you know, you were one of my close contacts. And I said, Sorry, Pete Carroll. I don't think we know each other. And then I was talking with my husband, do we know him? Really funny. So I'm so grateful.

Pete Carroll Yeah, it was just such a synchronistic little deal here. I didn't realize when we were when they were setting you up to visit with us. I didn't make the connection. Because I just knew Ana was coming on. I didn't know. So anyway, we put it all together. And it's really fun that we've been supporting moms for a long time. And I'm really, it just makes me quadruple proud to have a chance to visit with you because you're the work you're doing. And the book you've written in where your perspective is so extraordinarily unique, is just really special. So thank you.

Anna Malaika Tubbs I'm so grateful. And I hope the moms all enjoyed the book. I hope I get to hear some of their feedback, too.

2 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Pete Carroll You will. You definitely will.

Audrey Cavenecia Definitely right? Alright, so Oh, my gosh, we have so much that we want to talk to you about but I thought I would kick it off by saying that one of the things that beyond your book that I was so present to in your discussions with other people, is what I'll term sort of the era of moving from people's interest of being super human, to being very human. And I think that is a really important part that you expressed with your book about these mothers, clearly, we know they are, all the work that you had to do to piece together all of the information that you found since there was such sparse information about these women. But on top of it, I know that for women at large, but especially black and brown women, that and mothers, there's this thing about strong black women and we got to be strong. And Pete and I have been in this discussion with we talked about with Neil deGrasse Tyson actually one of the guests, we talked about how we've really moved we're moving out of this era of needing to you know, not only know about the big accomplishments and the big results into let's all be more human, more, you know, more decent more, all of the the facets of our personality, and I think that like I said there's so much for us to cover in your book, but I thought it was such a wonderful ringing into this era that we're coming in to know all these parts of one another, and especially because black women have, just like we talked about with Kathy, we've lost so many of our sons. Does that mean we failed? Does that mean we weren't good parents? No, it's like part of a whole system. And so I just one is we just honor you so much that you've brought up that conversation. And we want to hear more like, how did you come into that in writing this book to be so invested in humanity first?

Anna Malaika Tubbs I love that as a first question. so beautifully put, and it is something that I care deeply about. And I was really prioritizing in the book. So I'm grateful that you notice it because this book is a fight against dehumanization. Generally, I'm really framing the fight against the ways in which we treat people as less than human. And then also the ways in which what happens when we make them more than human, these superhumans and the layers that black mothers face, this is already something that universally mothers feel that everyone seems to think our needs no longer matter or that I often call it the magical minion who's like running around, and no one notices how the house is getting cleaned, or the dinner is getting cooked, etc. And then on top of that, to think of black womanhood, and the ways in which we've been tricked, this is a form of oppression, to tell us we are supposed to handle this all on our own, there is no one that's going to help us through this, when instead there's something very humanizing about saying, as a black woman, myself, as a black mother, myself, I see you, I celebrate you, I honor you, we have each other we are human beings. And we don't need to be any more than that. And we also deserve to be treated constantly as the human beings who we are. And dehumanization is so clear, when we think about black motherhood. Often if I say someone's being treated as less than human, or even when we see in our national rhetoric, organizers saying we are being treated as less than human, many will say, Oh, that's dramatic. That's definitely not what's happening. You're taking that a little bit too far. But when you really look at something like black motherhood in the United States, and its relationship to slavery, and how remnants of this awful system continue to play a part in our lives today, you cannot deny dehumanization is happening when you said to somebody, legally, you are the givers of non life, you are the givers of property, that is

3 Transcribed by https://otter.ai dehumanization, we are the only group in history who have been told that, that our children were not ours, and that our children are not human beings. And therefore we weren't either, that they could just be taken from us or sold. And what that does in terms of relationship to where we are today as a country, thinking about police violence against black bodies, and how clearly it still is this feeling of this life matters less, or this life is property, or this life doesn't deserve to be treated as a life. And I think you can just really think about dehumanization, when you look at motherhood, this symbol of creation of life. And I think about that, beyond birthing children, it's also in our creativity, it's in our art, it's in our activism. So this book is a celebration of black woman's humanity and humanity more generally.

Pete Carroll Well, that's, that's so beautifully put, we see the connection, so, so consistently, in where mothers needs support of one another, and they need to allow it to be recognized how special and how unique and how extraordinary. Their challenges are that they, and they make it and they do succeed, and they are surviving, and they are doing the jobs that they need to do and for their kids. And, and, wow, it's just, it's so amazing that that you've seen that. Anna what has been the response as you as you share your thoughts, because you have created such a unique perspective about mothers, and what has what's been the response of people when they start to learn about your story and where it came from, and all of that we're so interested in that.

Anna Malaika Tubbs It's been incredible, and really the honor of my life to have the conversations after the book came out. Of course, I was so excited to share the book, but it's a very vulnerable experience. And I just wanted to make something that people were proud of, especially black mothers were proud of that women and all mothers felt celebrated and seen and listened to and given that credit that we really deserve. And so hearing women say, reading this book was healing for me or I felt seen for the first time in a long time, or even beyond that. I also believe and of course that conclusion is entirely about policy, and entirely about where we move forward as a country and how we move forward as a country to hear people say I now understand better, why we need things like parental leave why we need things like a universal health care system or universal childcare system. So many of those who are being affected by the discrepancies in our Stem are mothers and especially mothers of color. We saw this in the pandemic, where we were forced to choose whether we were going to mother or work. And that is something that just shouldn't have been an issue, there should have been protections in place that both honored the woman who works within her home as well as outside of it, and it shouldn't have fallen on her shoulders. So it made it very clear, it was a very interesting time to have a book out about mothers and the appreciation of mothering and mother work even beyond, again, biological motherhood, many of our essential workers are doing mothering work. It's teaching, it's, you know, nursing, it's nourishing our families, it's taking care of them, our doctors, and these are characteristics that we so often have associated, we say with the feminine, and therefore people see it as weaker. But this book turns that on its head, and we say this is powerful, this is critical. We need these characteristics, we need to continue to uplift those that are trained to have a mindset to think of community to think of family, and less about the individual. And I think the more we focus on that, the more we highlight these roles, the more we celebrate them, the better our country will do overall.

Pete Carroll

4 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Well, I couldn't agree with that more when back in back in the day working in Los Angeles, I was connected to a movement of mothers that have been through some real tragedy in its effort to you know, violent issues with their kids and deaths and all kinds of things. And there was a time there were to me, it was so obvious that mothers had such power, if we could just get them connected and get them marching or whatever, whatever the endeavor took, they would have such a strong voice and such an impact it just just to the support of one another, they didn't anything else, anybody else, they just needed the support of one another. You don't and I'm sure I'm sure that this this book that you've you've put out is starting to it could become a rallying cry for moms. And it's I'm so fired up about that for you. And for the you know that you saw this coming. And so I hope that in this we can continue to keep putting it out there and just keep making people aware of how powerful this this whole recognition is. And really this I'm just so impressed.

Anna Malaika Tubbs Thank you and I just want to add to that, because I think what the book is telling us is that mothers have been doing this all along. They really have been the ones that have been moving things forward. We see it with these three mothers, Alberta King, Berdis Baldwin, Louise Little, they were so strong and they were teaching their children their own ways of being activists themselves. They were educating people. You know, we have Alberta who's an instrumentalist. We have Berdis, who's a writer herself, all three of them practice their own activism, the Louise Little is this radical Marcus Garvey follower. Why don't we know their stories sooner. And this is one of the problems that we have in speaking about motherhood, it's almost this assumption that, Oh, well, maybe it falls on mom's shoulders that they don't see it themselves, they don't see their own power. I believe that's one part of the issue. But truly, it has to go beyond that. We need to be recognized by those who we have been doing all of the work for, which is our entire nation, if you take mothers out of the equation, nothing can happen. And so when we don't honor that beginning of life, when we don't think about that moment, and the first person who is caring for that child, and we don't give her what she needs, and deserves to take care of that child, then it's going to translate in all of these other health indicators. My mom said it all the time, she's a lawyer, she advocated for Women's and Children's Rights around the world, and constantly would say to us notice how mothers are treated in this society notice if they're being taken care of, if they're being respected. And you'll see the connections to how that translates even to that country's economy. And it's true. It's really a true statement. If we really sit back and think, Okay, this mother just gave birth to this child, how often that's happening day to day, in every country, every city, if we were to take it even on a smaller scale, and what's going to happen is she has everything she needs to support that child versus when she's being ignored and told you're gonna have to handle this all on your own.

Audrey Cavenecia Well, I think that's one of the biggest things about mothers across the board, and especially when we're talking about black mothers is having to be so much more than a mother. Yeah, there there isn't any real time to relax into or to ease into and to you know, find the affinity with the bliss. That is I mean, when you look at how you opened your book in terms of just your own menstrual cycle onward to the you know, it's what I was really left with was that what's different about being a woman of color in that beginning process is, of course, you're so excited, you're going to have a child. But the moment after that is just fear, how you're going to be treated in the hospital, because we know that women of color are so at risk, even being how they're being treated in the hospital, and have a risk of even dying on the

5 Transcribed by https://otter.ai table, all the way through then raising a black child, and especially a black son. So there isn't, it was one of the things that I had a conversation with Pete and another guest about where I was, like, you know, the difference that a lot of women don't understand, or people don't understand is, as a mother to a black son, I don't have the luxury of enjoying his life, because I'm constantly in fear of it being taken from me. And to I think that's the thing that where I believe a lot of people can look at these three mothers that you selected and go, Wow, they should be so proud. But we have to remember, they, all three of them lost their child, their children. I mean, they that was such a tremendous loss. And I think that's the part that we don't think about when they tell these stories, or even getting to hear this story again. I mean, I was so present to being so sad, and then so conflicted, you know, I'm just, I want to know everything about them. And at the same time, Oh, my gosh, as a mom, I'm just heartbroken for them.

Anna Malaika Tubbs Yeah, absolutely. And it was something for me, I was writing the book, I was in the middle of my research for it, when I found myself expecting my firstborn. And those feelings of I'm so excited, you know, everything right, we're getting what we were praying for so wonderful. And then like he said, this immediate, oh, my goodness, you know, I'm a black feminist scholar, I am well aware of many of the things that are affecting black women, and one of them being the black maternal health crisis. And even beyond getting to the delivery table, even every time you're seeking care for yourself or your child, you're going to deal with bias in the system, you're going to see different things that could leave you vulnerable. And so it's the survival and this, this notion of I need to survive, and I need my child to survive starts immediately. And I would say also something that black women are well aware of before we become mothers. So this is just an extension of this, oh, these attacks are being waged against me. And I'm even more acutely aware of it, because I'm now also creating a life inside of me. And I need to protect this life with everything that I have. And it was also important for me while highlighting the fear, while highlighting the injustice that black women have to face this very uniquely in the United States. Also, making sure again, to not dehumanize us something that Melissa Harris, Perry says is that we're not a conquered victim. And if we only talk about our grief, if we only talk about our pain, it's as if we don't have any agency in the process. And that's been robbed from us. And so it was also important for me in the book to speak about the joy, the moments where they're there with their children, and they're happy, and they're finding their way and an ability to still love each other to still find happiness. Despite all these attacks being used against them and the challenges that they're facing day in and day out. That was what I was really so drawn to. And again, not by saying they were superhuman, not by saying, Wow, black women are so resilient, which is something we hear all the time, again, saying somehow we have some kind of higher tolerance for pain. We don't, we've just been very strategic in terms of finding a way to keep living and to keep creating life, by focusing on our vision for the future. And what's possible. We know our children deserve every dignity, every respect every opportunity that everybody else is afforded. And we'll fight for that for others to see it the way that we do. And this is one of the reasons going back to what you were saying Pete, black mothers have influenced systems around us, because we don't have any other choice. We can't sit here and accept it as if this is some inevitable burden that we're going to have to carry. So one of the greatest gifts of my life was studying these three changemakers while I was becoming a mother, going through the fear, also remembering how important my joy was, and to not allow that to be robbed from me.

6 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Pete Carroll Do you see that the need for mothers in general to not just be seen, but to be heard, but to be recognized in their in within themselves for the the sharing of this awareness. And I think all moms can really understand what we're talking about. And in the enormous challenges of bringing life into the world, the enormous challenges of the burden of just helping them make it through their early years, as well as all the rest of the things that are going on that I would think that the common the commonality that could be shared is powerful and supportive and can make you take that next step that get up that next morning and get out of bed and get going again and do it all over again.

Anna Malaika Tubbs I completely agree I think something you know, I don't know all the studies on this. I can't say I have the exact numbers on this, but there are very high numbers of postpartum depression in the United States as compared to, let's say, Sweden or places in Scandinavia. So my mother gave birth to her oldest, my sister in Seattle, Washington, actually, yes. And then she had her son, my, my brother in Sweden, Stockholm, Sweden. And then she had me in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And so she always talked about the difference between how she was treated in Sweden as a mom. And I shall say, My mom is a white white woman. And so there's definitely this universality that you're speaking about Pete, and she said, it was completely different than when she was in the US in Sweden, she had support in Sweden, she had parental leave in Sweden, she and her partner, my dad was also given the time off that he needed to be a part of the family unit. And she was given, you know, a midwife to take care of all of these different things that in the US, these are only privileges that a few of us get to enjoy. I was extremely privileged, I had my doulas beside me, I also had access to doctors, I also had access to nurses, I had a family around me, I have a career where I my money was going to be fine. If I took a couple months off, that is something that all women should have access to. And so you're seeing the difference in societies and the ways in which those mothers are going to feel even about their own motherhood. And in the US, it's much more of focus on this one person needs to handle it all. The pandemic showed that again, it was women who continuously had to make the sacrifice and make the decision as to whether or not they were going to keep working. And so there is something really broken about that. And it leads then to the mentality of mothers feeling. Maybe I am some kind of second class citizen, I'm constantly being treated that way. And then you'll also notice where it's the week of Mother's Day, we're going to keep be thanked over and over again, mothers are going to be thanked for our selflessness for putting other people ahead of us. And I actually think we need to stop celebrating that and moms, we need to stop telling them if you're not being selfless, if you're saying actually I also have needs her I'm a human beings, right, we're looking at who I was, even before I came, became a mom and look at how my passions are translating into my motherhood, then we're gonna think I'm supposed to be feeling like this. And I'm never supposed to ask for attention, and never supposed to ask for a thank you. And the final thing I'll say about that my mom constantly reminded us of the need to say thank you to her. And we laughed about it as kids, you know, we'd say, Oh, Mom, no one else. no one else's mom makes us makes them do that. But she would take us, you know, the ballet practice or wherever. And she would if we got out of the car out saying thank you. She'd say, all right, well, then you're not coming back tomorrow. And you know, she goes, you have to say thank you. I mean, who spent time doing this for you. I have no obligation to do this for you. She was always aware of that, even to the point where sometimes we were like, do you like love us, mommy. But that's not really how moms should take half the show love. It shouldn't be, I'll just do whatever it takes for you. You don't

7 Transcribed by https://otter.ai even have to acknowledge me. You can be as mad at me as you want to be. You can blame me for everything. That's not fair. Again, this is a human being. And so I think that there's just a general like cultural shift around the way we look at moms. I said final thing, but here it actually is. Another thing is that in the US, it's also very individual, we say again, it's just her that has to take care of it. This isn't really the thing. In most countries abroad, I've had the experience of living in several different places. And when I think about Ghana, for instance, where my dad is from, and we go there every year, it's completely different. It's community mothering, it's this notion of it takes a village to raise a child is not just like a saying it's a respected tradition that we believe is just as beneficial for the child as it is for the mother. It shouldn't all follow one person that's unnatural. It should actually be all of us are coming together to not only support this woman who's done this incredible thing, but also this child and making sure that it doesn't just fall on the one person who's juggling everything to just try to make it work. That's absurd. And I do hope that the book inspire some change around that.

Pete Carroll There's no doubt it is there's no doubt you've done a fantastic job and present that what about this morning I'm as I'm driving in I'm hearing on the on the one of the networks talking about paid leave is is now topical in here's legislation coming across the table here for for a whole new outlook in really what that's about is respecting and in revering the people that need the help because they're in the setting that we're talking about, I mean they have all of the needs and all of the responsibility, but our country does not recognize the necessity of paid leave in consideration for people under these under health circumstances or newborns or you know all of that and it's happening today. I don't Where it's gonna go, you know, what do you think about that? It's, it's it's kind of, it's really topical right now today,

Anna Malaika Tubbs it definitely relates back to the notion that in the US, we're very individual, this is something that has to do with the general notion of the American dream like it, you don't need the support, it's like, if you work hard enough, you'll be fine. It'll just fall on you. And there's something again, the status quo has not been working for us as a nation, we have plenty of evidence to suggest that we need to start thinking more as a community. Again, even with the pandemic, we saw this, one of the reasons the US struggled so early on is that we have a mindset of, I don't want to wear the mask, I don't want to do that. So I'm not going to, you know, versus thinking, for all of us, it might be better, I personally don't want to do that. But maybe for the rest of us, this will be something that we can, you know, it'll help us heal as a nation or help keep us healthier, etc. And so paid leave is one of those examples where it's really left up to companies, it's not a national dictate that these things should be in place as it is in other countries, where we say, okay, it's not going to be up to each individual company, we're gonna have a national dictate that says, if a child is born, both parents if their present will get this support. And it's not only because it's charity is not just, you know, like, pat on the back of it, like we care about people, it's because it's better for us, as a unit, as a country, if families have this time together, if children have moments with their parents, you know, and when you think about the fact that many moms after they give birth, go back to work within sometimes days. And even weeks, I find that to be upsetting. And then there's a concern, if you don't go back, you're going to lose your job. And then a child then is left with people who they don't know very early on, there's plenty of studies in child development that say they need to be with their caretakers, their their guardians early, and for a very long time, even for that family unit to bond with each other. Especially if this is a heteronormative relationship. The father needs

8 Transcribed by https://otter.ai that time at home. Otherwise, they don't even build like the chemistry in their brain that they need to say, this is my child, and I need to protect this child. And so it's just over and over again, the more individual we are, the worse it does for our community. And I think if we can focus on these things, not as, quote unquote, a handout, not as charity, but instead what's most beneficial to us and to our economy, then I think maybe more people would would get on board with the idea.

Audrey Cavenecia What did you take away considering you were in such a unique position, when you started working on this book, you were not a mom. And then through the process of it, you became one that must have been magical in and of itself to take that journey with these women. But on the other side of it now, especially just speaking of community, you know, I think that a lot of times, I know for myself, when I create something, there's that first process of creating something, but it's not until I share it with others, and hear and see what they get from it. Does it truly come alive for me? And then it continues to be this gift that I get over and over again, as I'm seeing things through their eyes. Right. So what is your now standing here now today what are the great the top lessons that you've walked away having learned from these women also through the through your eyes, but also through the eyes of the community at large That's, that's been communicating with you.

Anna Malaika Tubbs Such a beautiful question. I do think we've touched on some of them. So I'll definitely say the need for moms to be more vulnerable or feel like it's okay for us to be willing to say, again, I'm human. These are feelings that I have all three mothers, Alberta, Berdis and Louise there are moments in the book where they of course, they're incredibly strong. Of course, they are, you know, needing to kind of move forward because they have no other choice in the matter. But on top of it, they also have moments where they say to their children, I'm worried or I'm grieving something or this is something that's hard for me. And this ability to be vulnerable, as well as strong this balance, which again, reminds us of their humanity, and I think allowed their children to have a very special understanding of the human condition, because their mothers and I would say their parents in both cases, were very honest with them. And that's something that I think more of us can do and something that I carry in my own motherhood. That's not to say I, you know, share all my feelings with my 18 month old son that probably unhealthy but to allow myself to have a moment where I say you know that that doesn't feel very nice, you know, if you like to try to pull my hair, that's not very nice, that hurts me. Instead of just be like, fine, whatever, you know, do whatever you want to me kind of thing. Um, so I think that that's, that's one very important lesson with my own motherhood that I've learned. But I think every time I'd read the book, you know, when I was going through my edits, and all the different drafts that I had to read, there was something new that I learned from the moms, whether that was, you know, again, something kind of more philosophical or something that was very tangible. They each have strategies for how they educated their children. And they made sure that their children were aware of what was happening in our nation, they were aware of Jim Crow, there's examples in the book where all of them talk to their children about what's going on around them. But the ability that they were able to find, of making sure their children were not limited by that awareness, but instead used it as impetus for what we can create in terms of change. And something that comes up a lot in black maternal theory is the notion that motherhood is not the reproduction of patriarchy, a lot of other maternal theory believes that actually mothers or women should not become mothers, because this is how we're then trapped in the cycle.

9 Transcribed by https://otter.ai people telling us what we need to do, and these gender roles that are very specific and given to us. And Medici, the only way out of that is to not become, you know, the woman who gives birth to the child. But something that's unique in black maternal theory is, instead black women see this as a moment for transformation. Every time one of our children is born, the world begins, again, new possibility for laboratory practices for freedom for bringing somebody else into the world, who is going to be thinking about the possibility of justice and equality for everybody. And you see that really clearly. in Alberta, Berdis and Louise, and the balance between saying, this is what's happening in the world, you are going to be treated differently. I'm doing everything in my power to change that. And you have agency to change that, as well. And it's not a surprise, then that three of their their famous and become these world leaders who transform minds.

Pete Carroll Yeah, on a you've saw somewhere where you made a statement about how you're frustrated about the fact that it's so difficult for people to find the ability and the desire to recognize, you know, different perspectives. And this time right now is a challenging time. There's there's it's, there is a new, there's an opening opportunity here. Well, your work, your perspective, to me comes across as recognizing respect and caring. And there is there's a conversation there's a battle matter of fact waging about how are we willing to respect others? Are we willing to care for others that are different than us? And and you can see that this country is almost almost polarized in that discussion, which is about recognizing and loving and caring and seeing why people should be considered and seen and heard and all those basic fundamental things. There's, there's a, you're right in the center of this it with your, you know, your point of view here. And it's, it's so important that we capture this I mean, for you know, it's just been something that's been close to my heart to heart, how do we not see the reasons for caring and loving and understanding that people who are are challenged so much, and mothers, that's exactly, that's their life? Their life? Is their challenge, so extraordinarily, so that we're on it. What what do you what do you think about is there? Is there? Do you feel a sense of opportunity for change is happening, it is occurring? Is it there for us now?

Anna Malaika Tubbs You know, it's there's so many different ways that so many thoughts are coming my mind speaking, so I'll try to collect them. One of the reasons for my ability to be not only somebody who really recognizes difference, but who celebrates it and sees the strength of difference so clearly, is the privilege my parents gave me of traveling abroad. And through their jobs, they really just took a job anywhere they could, if it meant we were going to get to see a new place. This was something they prioritize that their kids see the world through their their own eyes, that we learn from our own perspective, and that we better understand even I have this incredible media literacy, because I've seen things through my own perspective that I saw on the news that was completely different than what I actually experienced. So I immediately had this notion in my mind, okay, storytelling is really what's happening all over the place and how, who gets to tell the story and what happens with that. And so, for me, so many people are afraid of difference. But again, this is something unique in the United States. If we look at the ways in which other countries and not all have done this well either but some places that have done this very well, well, they will they look where they tackle something that's happened in their history, very head on, and are not afraid to say we've done something wrong. Yes. And we need to fix that. And there's nothing that anybody loses by saying something bad happened in our history. And we're speaking

10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai about it. And we're really ridding ourselves of this disease, so that we can heal, and we can move forward. If you can't acknowledge something that's happened, if you can't see the wound, then it's just going to keep reappearing. And we're not going to be able to move forward. So one place that I'm thinking about very clearly is Germany, when I was doing my masters at Cambridge, and as well as my PhD, obviously, it's very international, I think, much more than some of our programs are sometimes in the US, especially in academia, I had friends from all over the place, and many of them are my closest friends were from Germany, and they spoke so clearly about how they were educated on the Holocaust, it is wrong, it is not okay, this is fact this should not have happened. And we will continue to be taught this when they were little, little kids through their entire education, they're being told this over and over and over again, there is not an eraser of what happened there. This was wrong. And because of that, they're able to find some healing. Again, not perfect, but far beyond our ability in the US, where we're every year still fighting to say, can you actually not change the word slave in the book to laborer? Can you actually just can, like, we need to all agree that this was not okay. Um, and many for some reason, there's this fear here, that we just don't we like, I can't, I don't want to accept this happened, I want to forget that this happened, or I want to be able to just move on, well, you won't be we won't be able to because those of us who are continuously being attacked by this, again, being treated as less than human don't have the choice to move on. But as a country, if we can be again, going back to being seen being recognized that pain should be addressed, and not said to us just forget about it. That's that's a crazy concept. It's just not going to work. But if we can start to have conversations where we say, yes, the way in which you're treated on a daily basis is different than the way I'm treated. And also, I see strength in the difference that you have brought to us and to our team and to our nation. There's just so much more that can happen. But there's a very strange and unique fear. And actually, I was talking to one of my friends who is a psychologist, and he said, there's actually many studies in the field of psychology that say, white people in the US have a very hard time talking about history, they feel very uncomfortable. There's like something that rises, you know, even in their blood pressure. If history is mentioned, there's something very unique happening there that we have to maybe, I don't know, I don't know what needs to happen. But the fact that that is fact, we have to do something about it, because you can't move forward without it.

Pete Carroll I agree with you. We, you know, we had the first that first chance was really reconstruction, there was an opportunity, there was a recognition, okay, we've got to do something here. And then it was just, you know, they just got wiped off the books, because white people weren't ready for that. But until I couldn't agree with you more that until the moments come where our teachings, our history, in schools to our children, they recognize what had what took place, and whatever this responsibility we feel that we don't want to recognize as white people know, it's stifling our ability to move forward, exactly, as you're saying. And so this, I'm hoping is many of us are all hoping that this time right now has shaken us again. And maybe this is the shaking that it needs needs to take place so that we can step forward. There's a lot of people that really care about this. And there's a lot of people that don't care about it too. Unfortunately, I'm not real worried about that part. But the the opportunity for us to share this common history relate to it and so that we can move forward and so that we can do the right things that are necessary. It's going to come from a loving caring respecting it like we talked about the new empathy and for what's going on and if we can get that moving, it's why your work I keep coming back your work is so poignant right now because just caring for moms in that and as your mom I'm when you're telling

11 Transcribed by https://otter.ai me about your mom telling you to say thank you I know she's she's hammering you because she wants you to be understanding she wants you to be caring, she wants you to recognize that. Yes, she had to make you you know, overdue and she drilled you but she was doing it for the future. She and she knew that it would help you in your perspective, which obviously what a tremendous success mom had.

Anna Malaika Tubbs I mean, my mom, there are so many things that I'm now understanding even better, I guess, of course, now that so closely, of course, I'm looking at my own mom and thinking, oh, wow, you know, that was really intentional. She's not perfect. Of course, there's many, you know, mistakes all parents make, but to really appreciate some of the things that she did very well, and even in speaking about this racial reckoning that our country is maybe finally opening your eyes to and hopefully they don't close their eyes again, my mom, again, a white woman, she never said to me, you know, let's pretend like this history didn't happen. That would be crazy for me as a black child, if my white mother had been like, Oh, no, none of those things happened. Let's just move forward, there's no need for you to. And then if I walking through the street, was treated differently and didn't have any understanding of why that was happening. That would have been really detrimental to me. But my mother, I mean, kudos to her has always been an incredible ally. And I took almost took that for granted. So that's why for me, it's so shocking when other people have a hard time with this, because she always said, I don't know what it's going to be like to walk in your shoes, I'm not going to pretend that I know that. But I will stand by you. And I will always make sure you know, your opinion is valued, you know, not only in our household, but I will do everything I can to back you, you are not limited. You know, these are real things that are happening. These are real attacks that are going to be waged against you. I'm fearful of that as your mother. But I'll also do everything I can to make sure you are not limited by that. And I will be part of this process of fighting for change. That's really what we're asking for. It's not tell me what like, don't, don't say, you know what it's like to be a black woman in the United States. No, but also say I'm willing to learn, I'm willing to walk with you. And I'm willing to do what I can do to change what's happening.

Pete Carroll Yeah, I feel so much a part of more than ever, and my wish I would have understood it more so earlier to help more people. But this, this challenge right now is to share this thought with with white people and help them understand how much there is out there for us to embrace.

Anna Malaika Tubbs How much it'll help us all. But we're talking about the collective. You know, I was on an interview recently speaking about how the ratio of these three women who I talked about was very intentional. And someone said, Well, what do we have to gain? Like, you know, they were questioning my, my finding, you know, what do we have to gain from that? Like, why? Why would people racist and racism, sexism, all of these forms of discrimination, they're not logical. Again, there are so many studies that have proven as a country, we've lost a lot of money because of racism. Sure. It's not something that is like, Oh, I'm paying for this makes sense. Let's do this. Let's, let's make it difficult for most of us, for many in our country to not be able to receive an education, or let's make it difficult for many to not be able to vote or have their vote counted. That's not logical. It doesn't make any sense. But it has happened.

12 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Audrey Cavenecia And so but some of it does make sense on it. Like, if you look at the ratio of women of mothers of people of color and their contribution, what does it boil down to? It boils down to credit. Yeah, if I eliminate someone that's contributed to this process, I get credit for the outcome. And that's that returns to I mean, to me, this is like one of the greatest things about the takeaway of your book, of what I know, Pete is so passionate about what I'm so passionate about, which is let's be less focused on raising leaders, and let's be focused on raising people who care about other people. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's so completely simple. But if you could measure that the outcome of that the benefit to the financial bottom line to the growth and the thriving of communities and ideas and creativity, I mean, there's so much that goes into when people actually feel seen. And whatever you're getting out of erasing us, you would get so much more by just including us. And I, I think we're on in a moment in history where maybe a bit of that is beginning to open up, but I don't think the dots are connected in terms of that, if I care. Better, there's some there's an Yeah, there's a there's a whole world that's going to emerge for me that I am not privy to right now. So the logic that I'm bringing into why would I you can't bring the logic from where you're at, into a new paradigm. You have to just step by step into that new paradigm in order to see what you see. Yeah, and that's that's just what I love so much. And it goes back to the opening of this, which is this humaneness. But um, anyway.

Pete Carroll Thank you, really just this, this whole topic Ron on his back can contributing to the just the general caring is is it's a it can be a movement and that it will be so powerful and so. So changing for us and as you've done such an enormous effort here and I love that you've done it thanks so much for sharing this with us and getting a chance for people to hear more from you. We need to hear you. We did, we definitely need to hear you. Okay.

Anna Malaika Tubbs Thank you for giving me a platform to share it with more people,

Audrey Cavenecia for sure. And I'm and I wanted to say, from one woman, one mother to another, with that beautiful brain of yours. I'm so glad that you chose storytelling to get into what people don't realize is 80% of the world consume all 80% of all stories that the world consumes comes out of the United States. And we have the opportunity when you think about being erased from history being overlooked or discredited. We have the opportunity to introduce narratives, like mothering like caring like all of this. And this is why to me I even think for Pete to be in storytelling is important for people that care about other people. And that is the foundation in which they're standing. We need more of those stories. And so thank you for being in storytelling. So much.

Pete Carroll Happy Happy. Happy Mother's Day.

Happy Mother's Day, everyone.

13 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Pete Carroll Yeah, really, very much. So thank you so much.

Anna Malaika Tubbs Thank you.

Audrey Cavenecia What a beautiful person.

Pete Carroll First off that wasn't that just amazing. It was what a beautiful person she is. With so much insight and so much care about the world and and brilliance too. Gosh, it was impressive.

Audrey Cavenecia Yeah, yeah, completely. I think that it's interesting, right? Because the book being about mothers and I think people would really miss out on it by saying that this is a book just about mothers because to me what I got from it, like we were talking about that it's really a book about caring about decency, about humanity, about loss about life. I mean, there's so much in it. And quite frankly, when I look at the most interesting time in the nation of what's going on the world and considering that boy, when she started this book, which was four years before it came out, there was none of this pandemic and the murders, you know, changing the nation and all of the marches and what have you. And she just walked into one of the most critical times in history, I really feel like there's no accident that her book would be something that should be everybody should be talking about this book, in my opinion,

Pete Carroll Right and should be talking a lot about her too. She has she has a messaging that is so strong and so clear. Just so articulate in her in her feelings and sharing that it came across in the book and you know, beautifully written book, but just her to so I'm so glad that we had a chance to visit with her and hope people will see her and learn her and figure out what you know what she's all about, because she's got a lot to offer the world. And we've got a we've got to just hang on to her and follow her around because she's gonna do some great stuff

Audrey Cavenecia Completely agree. Thank you for listening to Amplify Voices. Make sure to subscribe or follow our podcasts so that you don't miss any of our real conversations from the heart. Also, if you like what you've heard, please don't forget to leave us a review or a rating. To keep the conversation going between episodes visit the Amplify Voices YouTube channel for extras and behind the scenes content. See you the next time on Amplify Voices

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