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Vol. 739 Thursday No. 38 19 July 2012 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Questions Democratic Republic of Congo NHS: Health Workers Credit Unions Police: Working Conditions Late Night Levy (Application and Administration) Regulations 2012 Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Wales: Devolution Motion to Take Note UK Border Agency Motion to Take Note EU Drugs Strategy: EUC Report Motion to Take Note British Council: Funding Question for Short Debate Grand Committee Local Government Finance Bill Committee (5th Day) Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. The bound volumes also will be sent to those Peers who similarly notify their wish to receive them. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. 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THE INDEX to each Bound Volume of House of Commons Debates is published separately at £9·00 and can be supplied to standing order. All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2012, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey, TW9 4DU; email: [email protected] 333 Democratic Republic of Congo[19 JULY 2012] Democratic Republic of Congo 334 previous co-operation with the Congo army and have House of Lords set up a mutineers’ group again. Have we offered, and has my right honourable friend offered, UK assistance Thursday, 19 July 2012. in the pursuit and capture of Bosco, who is of course indicted by the ICC? No, because it is the responsibility 11 am of the DRC itself to co-operate fully with the ICC, and that is what we constantly urge. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle. Lord Boateng: Given the importance of the African Democratic Republic of Congo Union and South Africa and their good offices to the future of the DRC, would the Minister welcome the Question accession of the former Foreign Minister of South Africa, Mrs Dlamini-Zuma, to the leadership of the 11.06 am African Union? Her good offices are going to be absolutely crucial at this time if we are to bring peace Asked by Lord Chidgey and security to that area. To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of reports that mutineers in the Lord Howell of Guildford: The noble Lord is absolutely eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo right, and I certainly welcome that accession. The have received assistance from foreign military officials. African Union is playing an increasingly positive part in facing up to the regional issues in the centre of The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Africa and at the centre of its concerns. We certainly Office (Lord Howell of Guildford): My Lords, we have welcome that. Obviously the African Union has played studied the United Nations Group of Experts report a key part in the International Conference on the and believe it to be credible. We call on the countries Great Lakes, which was in the margins of the meeting named in the report to seek a sustainable resolution to of the African Union in Addis Ababa the other day. It the conflict, and one that breaks the cycle of violence. is a very good prospect that South Africa is playing a leading part, as the noble Lord describes. Lord Chidgey: I am grateful to my noble friend for that Answer, but is he aware that Presidents Kabila Lord Alton of Liverpool: My Lords, was the Minister’s and Kagame have agreed that the 11-nation International reply to the noble Lord, Lord Chidgey, an acceptance Conference on the Great Lakes Region should work that Rwanda has been aiding and abetting not only with the AU and the UN to establish a neutral force M23 but the other six rebel groups that have led to along the Rwanda-Congo border? Has President Kagame 1.4 million people being displaced in the Kivu in discussed with our Prime Minister which countries are eastern Congo? That being the case, why are we not offering to commit troops while Rwanda withdraws its using the £344 million of aid which we have provided support from the M23 rebels? Secondly, the Tutsi to Rwanda as leverage to persuade Rwanda not to aid leader, Senator Mwangachuchu, claims that the M23 and abet these insurgent groups, and to do rather rebellion resulted from the ICC judgment against Thomas more to bring to justice people such as Bosco Ntaganda, Lubanga and the indictment of Bosco Ntaganda for who has been responsible for the recruitment of child recruiting child soldiers and other crimes. Has the soldiers, which has led to the deaths of countless Prime Minister offered UK assistance, or has any numbers of people—a haemorrhaging loss of life that other agency offered assistance in the pursuit and dwarfs even the terrible and tragic events in Syria by capture of Bosco Ntaganda? comparison? Lord Howell of Guildford: In answer to my noble Lord Howell of Guildford: In answer to the noble friend’s questions, yes I am aware of the Great Lakes Lord, Lord Alton, no one questions the atrocities and conference agreement by Presidents Kabila and Kagame misery of these various armies. I have counted five and others that they should consider the idea of a different armies and groups involved in killing and border force, but it is still only at the thinking stage. fighting each other in the region, and there is an Did my right honourable friend the Prime Minister extreme danger of this spreading and creating mayhem discuss this with President Kagame when he saw him a more widely on both humanitarian and security grounds. few weeks ago? The answer is no, because the propositions That is certainly the case. of the Great Lakes group had not come forward at As to our leverage, our aid programme is not quite that point. The Prime Minister expressed extreme as large as the sum mentioned by the noble Lord. I concern at the Group of Experts report that Rwanda have a figure of £198 million a year to the DRC, and might be involved in backing the M23, but other £83 million a year to Rwanda. Certainly our judgment developments have taken place since. is that, through that aid, we have the authority and the Has the ICC judgment against Thomas Lubanga leverage to influence the situation. I spoke to the created an atmosphere in which the M23 rebellion and Foreign Minister of Rwanda, Louise Mushikiwabo, breakaway from the Congolese army has taken place? about three weeks ago, as did my right honourable I have to say that it may have played a part, but it is friend the Secretary of State for Development and my very hard to say. It may have been one of the reasons honourable friend Mr Bellingham. We all impressed why Bosco Ntaganda and others retreated from their on her and her colleagues the necessity of facing up to 335 Democratic Republic of Congo[LORDS] NHS: Health Workers 336 [LORD HOWELL OF GUILDFORD] month-old baby who was raped with a military-issue the reality, and of Rwanda’s activity, as reported in rifle and who then sustained terrible gunshot wounds. the Group of Experts, to cease and to make way for a Does the Minister agree that we need to hold Rwanda proper solution to the conflict. We are using our to account, and that we should also hold the Congolese leverage and influence in a very nasty situation, but army to account? Could he press for more military the way we do it obviously varies from country to tribunals so that we can play our role in ensuring that country. innocent victims such as that nine month-old baby girl get the justice they deserve? The Archbishop of Canterbury: My Lords, I am very grateful for the opportunity to ask a question in Lord Howell of Guildford: Yes. Obviously we encourage this particular context, because I think the plight of the bringing to account of the very evil people who are the Congo is well known to everyone in this House. committing these atrocities; there is no question at all The issue of regional co-operation has already been about that. Bosco Ntaganda has been indicted by the flagged indirectly in what has been said. One of the ICC, and Rwanda has its own tribunal and court for questions I would like to ask is to do with what Her assessing the horrors of the past.