Tuesday Volume 496 14 July 2009 No. 111

HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT

PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD)

Tuesday 14 July 2009

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Mr. Ian Davidson (Glasgow, South-West) (Lab/Co-op): House of Commons Does the Minister agree that there are substantial numbers of public sector workers who are low paid and do not Tuesday 14 July 2009 deserve to have their pay frozen, and that although there is a need for pay restraint, it ought to be applied to those at the top of the public sector and, indeed, to The House met at half-past Two o’clock those at the top of the private sector?

PRAYERS Mr. Byrne: My hon. Friend has an excellent point. It is incumbent on the leaders of public services, at such times, to show restraint and to set an example. However, [MR.SPEAKER in the Chair] I agree that over the past 10 years it has been important to give some above-average pay increases to front-line BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS staff in particular, such as nurses, fire service workers and the police. If we look back at the average pay rises throughout the private and public sectors, we find that CANTERBURY CITY COUNCIL BILL they basically come out about the same. However, within Motion made, That the Bill be now read the Third that overall improvement in public sector pay, we are time. proud to have achieved particular rewards for nurses, teachers and police, because, let’s face it, for many years Hon. Members: Object. they were under-rewarded. Bill to be read the Third time on Thursday 15 October. Mr. Greg Hands (Hammersmith and Fulham) (Con): NOTTINGHAM CITY COUNCIL BILL The Minister says that he is in favour of quango-boss Motion made, That the Bill be now read the Third pay restraint, yet we are seeing figures of 22 per cent. at time. the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, 17 per cent. at the National Treatment Agency Hon. Members: Object. for Substance Misuse and 16 per cent. at the UK Bill to be read the Third time on Thursday 15 October. Hydrographic Office. The Chancellor told The Sunday Times that “a pain-free way of cutting public spending would be to freeze public sector pay”. Oral Answers to Questions So which is it? Is he in favour of a pay freeze or huge rises for quango bosses?

TREASURY Mr. Byrne: The argument is the argument that I made to the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker). There cannot be any automatic entitlement to bonuses The Chancellor of the Exchequer was asked— or, indeed, to high pay. Any bonuses to people in the public sector can be awarded only on the basis of the Public Sector Pay performance that they have delivered for the public. Of course, on quangos there are wider questions—not just 1. Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): When he about pay, but about the number of quangos that we last met the chief executive of the Audit Commission have in this country—and that is why I have asked for a to discuss levels of public sector pay. [286189] cross-Government look at the number that we have. What I will certainly not be doing, unlike the Opposition, The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): is bringing forward plans for another 17 of them. I met the chairman of the Audit Commission together with ministerial colleagues yesterday. Bank Lending (Small and Medium Businesses) Mr. Walker: At a time of private sector pay freezes and public sector pay restraint, is it right that the 2. Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab): What recent leaders of our quangos are getting pay increases of up representations he has received on the level of bank to 20 per cent. or more? lending to small and medium-sized businesses; and if he will make a statement. [286190] Mr. Byrne: The principle that must guide the rewards that go to leaders of quangos must be very clear: they 6. Mr. Jim Cunningham (Coventry, South) (Lab): must be rewarded only on the basis of their performance What recent representations he has received on the level on behalf of the public. However, the hon. Gentleman of bank lending to small and medium-sized businesses; is right to allude to the necessity for public service and if he will make a statement. [286195] leaders, no matter what part of the public sector they work in, whether it be the BBC or any other non- The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): departmental public body, to set an example and to The Bank of England’s latest credit conditions survey show restraint. That is why we have limited pay awards suggested that there has been a second consecutive for senior civil servants, judges, senior NHS managers increase in the availability of corporate credit, in the and NDPB chief executives in this financial year to just second quarter of this year; and it expects a further 1½ per cent. easing in the following quarter. 139 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 140

Derek Twigg: My constituency has seen some of the John McFall (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): In largest increases in unemployment in the country, so it the Treasury Committee’s current inquiry into mortgage is vital that the banks support viable businesses and lending, the anecdotal evidence coming in to us indicates maintain jobs. Will my right hon. Friend do all that he that credit scoring is tightening almost by the week. The can again to encourage banks to lend to viable businesses? Home Builders Federation has said that lenders are There is an inconsistency among the banks which has looking for any reason to refuse a loan. In his most been brought to my attention by a number of constituents. recent appearance, the Governor of the Bank of England said that lending to business is falling and lending to households is flat. When the Chancellor meets the Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend raises an understandable banks, will he reinforce the point that they have not only concern. We do have lending agreements with those economic but social obligations to ensure that this banks in which we have substantial shareholdings, the lending does indeed take place? Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Banking Group. Those agreements will this year see RBS lend £25 billion and Lloyds lend £14 billion. In some cases, instructions Mr. Darling: As my right hon. Friend knows, there is do not appear to have worked their way down to a balance to be struck in this regard. About a year ago regional and local levels to ensure that high-level agreements in Treasury Question Time, Members on both sides of have been translated into available lending for companies the House expressed concern about irresponsible lending. and individuals. I am meeting the banks shortly to Inevitably, there has been some retrenchment on the discuss that matter further, but they must ensure that part of lenders to ensure that when they lend money the the people who are responsible for making those decisions borrower can maintain the repayments, which is obviously make them in the way that we want; that, in many cases, very important. The general point that my right hon. they renew their acquaintance with some of the businesses Friend makes has been made on both sides of the with which they deal; and that they get back to some House. It is absolutely imperative, in this country and in good old-fashioned banking. others, that the banks see through the obligations that they have entered into. We need to get credit going again because that will be the thing that helps to drive Mr. Cunningham: Following on from that, though, the recovery. I will certainly be raising these matters this has been going on for quite a long time; the banks’ when I meet the banks shortly. slowness to help small businesses has often been raised in the House. My right hon. Friend said that he is going Mr. George Osborne (Tatton) (Con): The Chancellor to meet the banks shortly. However, what effective says that lending in the economy is lower than he measures can he take, because small businesses are expected. Perhaps that is something to do with the fact suffering, they are impatient, and people’s jobs are at that half his schemes are not working. When he launched stake? the asset-backed securities guarantee scheme, he said that it would Mr. Darling: I agree with my hon. Friend. It is “increase confidence and capacity to lend, and…support the important, particularly if we are going to see a recovery, recovery”. to ensure that credit starts flowing, especially to the Can he tell us how many major banks have made use of small and medium-sized enterprises sector, which employs that scheme? so many people in this country. As I said a moment ago, it is important that the banks honour their commitments. Mr. Darling: We are still in discussions with the In addition to the commitments that I referred to, banks to ensure that that facility is there, but it has to be Barclays and HSBC have also given undertakings to seen in the context of a range of other measures that we lend additional money during the course of the next have introduced to help to stabilise the banks and help year. It is very important that we see that through. to get lending going again. The hon. Gentleman would be on much stronger ground if he reminded the House Mr. Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks) (Con): Can the that he opposes every single one of these measures Chancellor confirm that lending to business under the because he is against any sort of stimulus in the economy small firms loan guarantee scheme and the enterprise at all. finance guarantee scheme was only £178 million in the year just finished—less than half the original target—and Mr. Osborne: I remind the Chancellor that almost a that despite the taxpayer billions and all the Government’s year ago we proposed a national loan guarantee scheme, promises, new lending to business is still falling in this which would have solved many of these problems. The financial year? Why? answer to my question is zero—not a zero per cent. rise, but simply zero. Indeed, the Communities and Local Government Committee has today produced a report Mr. Darling: At the beginning of this year, the take-up saying that although the asset-backed securities guarantee of lending was slower than we expected, not only on the scheme is supply side, on the part of banks, for the reasons that I “one of the most of the important of the weapons…for tackling mentioned, but because, as the hon. Gentleman will the effects of the credit crunch…it is not working”, know, we saw a very substantial downturn in the economy and the Labour Chair of the Committee says that at the end of last year and the beginning of this year. The result has been that the rate of lending has not been “it is doomed to fail”. as high as we would have liked. However, all the mechanisms The Chancellor talks about context. That scheme has are now in place—certainly the funding is in place—and no take-up, the trade credit insurance scheme has helped it is now important to ensure that lending takes place just 13 firms, and the mortgage rescue scheme for and gets put into the economy as quickly as possible. homeowners has helped just six families since it was 141 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 142 launched. Do not this Prime Minister and his Cabinet Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The hon. Gentleman is an increasingly resemble a deluded emperor looking at advocate for all his constituents who have written to Potemkin villages—schemes that were announced only him. I know from letters that I have received that many in a press release and do not actually exist on the hon. Members have received correspondence from their ground? Will the Chancellor go back to the drawing constituents about the importance of bingo. Of course board, look again at the asset-back securities guarantee we will continue the dialogue with the industry, and scheme, redesign it, re-price it, and get it working so these things are always kept under review in the pre-Budget that he can deliver, to coin a phrase, real help now? report and the Budget.

Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman refers to his national Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): May I suggest loan scheme, which is all very well except that at one that my hon. Friend consult other Ministers about and the same time, he was saying that he would not which forms of gambling are most dangerous and which provide any funding to ensure that it was actually in are most innocent, and then consider taxing gambling place. Then the shadow Business Secretary had to admit according to the danger of addictive tendencies? That that if the Opposition had such a scheme, the taxpayer would be not only fair but helpful to those who suffer would be hit for it despite the fact that the Conservative from compulsive gambling. party is against spending money on these things. We are putting in place a range of measures to help Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We have not had a policy of businesses, for example on the time to pay and on taxing gambling in accordance with how addictive or enabling small businesses to carry back losses over three dangerous it is. That does not mean to say that we years, and the scheme to help the car industry—the would not consider that in future. We have to take into scrappage scheme. A range of measures are being taken. account a lot of considerations as we look at different I also have to say to the hon. Gentleman that a range of rates of duty, particularly for the bingo industry. The measures are in place to stabilise the banking system changes that we made in the Budget were designed to and ensure that it functions properly. All those things simplify the regime. are in place. Some of them will take time to work their way through, but every one of them has one thing in common: they are opposed by the Conservative party. I Sir Patrick Cormack (South Staffordshire) (Con): welcome the Opposition’s concern about them, but for Does the Minister wish to go down in history as the sake of completeness they should point out to Miss Killjoy? people that they are against every single one of those measures to help our economy. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I do not wish to go down in history as Miss Killjoy, and I certainly do not think that Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East) (Lab): I have a is my function or what I am doing in this instance. medium-sized company in my constituency that distributes white goods to shops. Recently it has had to lay off a Jeff Ennis (Barnsley, East and Mexborough) (Lab): number of its work force because of the difficulty of In a response on this very issue that I received from one acquiring trade credit insurance. May I ask my right of my hon. Friend’s ministerial colleagues, dated 30 April, hon. Friend what good news he may have for firms such it was pointed out to me that over the past six years, as that, which are having such difficulties? taxation on bingo had fallen from 35 per cent. to 22 per cent. That is good news, but given that bingo clubs are Mr. Darling: The Department for Business, Innovation still closing, would it not be better to consider lowering and Skills has put in place measures to help with trade the tax even further? After all, it is better to get taxation credit insurance, and it is examining the matter carefully at 20 per cent. from a thriving bingo club than to close to ensure that we can improve the availability of trade clubs down at 22 per cent. credit. That is very important not just for small firms but for large ones as well, and we are pursuing the matter because it is necessary to get it going. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As I said in answer to previous questions, we are of course in ongoing dialogue with Bingo (Taxation) the industry about the impact of what has been done. My hon. Friend is quite right that as recently as 2003, 3. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): What recent discussions the effective tax rate was 35 per cent. We will continue he has had with bingo operators on the effects on them to look at the matter and, as I have said, we recognise of the taxation regime for bingo clubs. [286192] the importance of bingo to many of our constituents, as evidenced by the correspondence that we have received. The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah McCarthy-Fry): We have had continued dialogue with IR35 the bingo industry both before and since the Budget on the impact of the tax regime. I last met the industry just two weeks ago, and that dialogue will of course continue. 4. Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): If he will bring forward proposals to rescind IR35 measures. [286193] Bob Spink: I thank the Minister for her answer. She and the whole House understand the social importance The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen of bingo to our communities, and that the business of Timms): No, we have no plans to rescind IR35. It bingo is a caring and a good business. Will the Government remains important that people with personal service keep the taxation of bingo under review in future Budgets, companies should not gain an unfair tax advantage to ensure that it is taxed fairly given its social function? over direct employees. 143 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 144

Ann Winterton: That is a disappointing reply because institutions, such as the Derbyshire and the Presbyterian IR35 blurs the distinction between freelancers and mutual society in Northern Ireland, deserve the same employees for their tax liability. Although fraudulent protection? employment should be tackled, why punish genuine freelancers when enterprises are needed to generate Ian Pearson: As the hon. Gentleman knows, following wealth for the United Kingdom economy, and when discussions with some of the party leaders in the Northern there is no evidence that IR35 raises any money for the Ireland Administration, the Government have announced Exchequer? that we will conduct a review of the Presbyterian mutual society and the situation facing savers. I understand Mr. Timms: I would turn the question back on the that that review has just started and is due to report hon. Lady. Why should somebody who is effectively in in the autumn. The hon. Gentleman will also know an employment relationship with an employer, but with about the general issue of regulating industrial and a personal service company, have a tax advantage over a provident societies and credit unions in Northern Ireland. direct employee? I vividly remember the heated debate A report was published on that matter on 8 July, to after IR35 was announced more or less exactly 10 years which I refer him. ago, but it has operated satisfactorily since then. The key point is that people who are in employment should be taxed as employees. IR35 has therefore addressed a Alcohol Duties (Employment) potential unfairness. 7. Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): What Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Isle of Man assessment he has made of the effect on levels of employment in the pub and hospitality industry of the 5. Mr. Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op): changes in alcohol duties announced in the 2009 If he will hold discussions with the Isle of Man Budget. [286197] Government on reimbursement of the legal costs of UK depositors of Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah Isle of Man bank arising from the scheme of arrangement McCarthy-Fry): Many factors affect the level of against the bank administered by the Isle of Man employment in the hospitality and pub industry. No authorities. [286194] separate assessment has been made of the effects of the changes in alcohol duty. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Isle of Man is not a Greg Mulholland: I thank the Exchequer Secretary subsidiary of KSF in the UK, but of the Icelandic for her reply. Let me tell her that 5,000 jobs are estimated parent company. Oversight of KSF Isle of Man is the to have gone since the 2 per cent. rise was introduced. responsibility of the Isle of Man’s Financial Supervision May I bring it to her attention and to that of the Commission. Arrangements for depositors in KSF Isle Government that the Royal Bank of Scotland owns of Man, including for the reimbursement of legal costs, 1,000 tied pubs, with some tenants facing unreasonable are a matter for Manx insolvency law and the Isle of rents and beer prices, forcing them out of work and on Man Government. to the dole queue? How does she feel about that, given that RBS is part Government owned? Will she and the Mr. Sheerman: Is not my hon. Friend passing the Government support calls for RBS to sell those pubs to buck? People in my constituency and throughout the tenants at fair market prices? United Kingdom invested in the Derbyshire building society, thinking that their savings were safe. They have Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman lost most of their savings and they are still waiting for is aware that the Government do not control the any recompense. The legal costs will haemorrhage away management of RBS, so we leave that issue to them. what hope they have of ever getting anything. They are UK citizens who have lost their life savings, and I Mr. David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab): I have been believe that we should do something to help them. in correspondence with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor. One of the things that has come up is the fact that the Ian Pearson: It is my understanding that investors in tariffs on beer are exactly the same whether it be prepacked the Derbyshire were clearly informed when their savings or draught beer. It is European legislation that is stopping were transferred to KSF Isle of Man. It is a fact that us from recognising the difference. Surely as a Government KSF Isle of Man is regulated by the Manx authorities, we can go to our Labour MEPs—and, indeed, to in the same way as other jurisdictions have their own Governments across Europe—and get rid of that tariff, regulators. It is not possible for the UK Government to because that is what is closing a number of pubs at the intervene in those circumstances. I am more than happy present time. to discuss the issue with my hon. Friend in more detail, if he wishes. I recognise the concern of savers in his Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I thank my hon. Friend for his constituency and others. question. He will be aware that there will be a review of the alcohol directives in 2010. When the new Commission Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): is in place, a work programme will be published on what The Government moved early to protect savers with areas it will look at. We will work closely with the Northern Rock and other large financial institutions in Commission to ensure that what comes out of the the United Kingdom. Do not savers with smaller review is best for the UK industry. 145 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 146

Comprehensive Spending Review Mr. Darling: I think that I have made our position absolutely clear as far as spending beyond 2011 is 8. Mr. Desmond Swayne (New Forest, West) (Con): concerned. However, if the hon. Gentleman wants to Against what timetable he plans to conduct the next play at sight games, perhaps he could explain why one moment we get the Conservatives promising tax cuts comprehensive spending review. [286198] and another moment we are told that they are off for six years. One moment we are told that the Conservatives The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): want to spend more; then we are told that they want to Departmental budgets are set until April 2011. As I said cut more. The hon. Gentleman ought to attend to some in the Budget statement, the current economic uncertainty of his own difficulties before he addresses anything else. means that it would not make any sense to try to set departmental budgets now for every year to 2014. However, Mr. Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): The Chancellor as I said in the Budget, we will return to that issue at the just said that it was his priority to halve the scale of the pre-Budget report and then again in the Budget. public deficit. How can that possibly be realistic, and how can he be taken seriously, if he defers indefinitely Mr. Swayne: Given the economic difficulty and the the comprehensive spending review that must be the background, can the Chancellor tell us whether there is essential building block for delivering the policy that he any difference in principle between setting the overall has just told us from the Dispatch Box is a priority? expenditure envelope and setting the departmental total? Mr. Darling: I do think that it is important that we Mr. Darling: There is quite a big difference I would reduce the deficit, which is why I have set out plans to have thought, but the hon. Gentleman has helped to reduce it by half over a five-year period. That is a draw attention to the fact that in the Budget I had two reasonable period of time, given where we are at the principal aims. One was to ensure that we continued to moment. I said in reply to the hon. Member for New support the economy now, by ensuring that we maintain Forest, West (Mr. Swayne) that, at this stage, it would spending at its present levels, as we intended from 2007. not make any sense to set out detailed departmental The second aim was to ensure that we halve the deficit totals in the midst of what are still pretty uncertain over a five-year period. Both those things were important: conditions. I said that we would come back to that at it is important to support the economy now, but it was the PBR and the Budget, and that remains our position. also important that we set out a clear sense of direction, so that we can get borrowing down. That was the River Forth Crossing (UK Government Assistance) strategy that we set out, and it remains our policy. 9. Willie Rennie (Dunfermline and West Fife) (LD): Dr. Vincent Cable (Twickenham) (LD): There is clearly What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish much uncertainty, but does the Chancellor accept the Executive on UK Government assistance for the estimate of the OECD, which is that we now have a construction of a new crossing over the River Forth. structural deficit on the budget of around 7 per cent. of [286199] GDP, which the public spending review will have to incorporate? As he agrees with us, I think, that it would The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen be foolish and counter-productive to resort to fiscal Timms): My right hon. Friends the former Chief Secretary tightening in a recession, how many years does he think to the Treasury and the Secretary of State for Scotland it would take thereafter to eliminate that structural met the Scottish Finance Minister in March to discuss deficit? financing for a new Forth bridge.

Mr. Darling: First, my forecasts have not changed Willie Rennie: I warmly welcome the acceptance that since I set them out in April in the Budget; and as the the UK Government should help the Scottish Government hon. Gentleman knows, we will update our forecasts at to fund this vital new crossing, but when will the the pre-Budget report. He is quite right too to identify Government come forward with real new money to help the fact that there is still quite a lot of uncertainty. to pay for the bridge? Will they also consider speedily Although there have been some encouraging signs in bringing in new borrowing powers for the Scottish this country and other parts of the world that we are on Government, so that they can spread the cost over a course to recovery, the problems in world trade are number of years, as has been proposed by the Calman affecting exports. Although oil prices have come down commission? over the past few days, the fact that they have risen poses another threat that we will have to deal with. Mr. Timms: I am glad to recognise the importance of However, as for making further forecasts or further the second Forth crossing, and to support the importance judgments on what else we can do on spending, that is of its construction. Funding, however, is a devolved something to which I said I would return at the pre-Budget decision, and this is a matter for the Scottish Executive report and the Budget next year. to determine. My right hon. Friends offered flexibility to help within the economic framework applying to the Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge) UK as a whole, and I hope that that flexibility will allow (Con): I would like to conduct an intragovernmental the project to proceed. sight test. The Schools Secretary has claimed to be able to see the spending on schools and hospitals rising in Rob Marris (Wolverhampton, South-West) (Lab): Can real terms after 2011. If the Chancellor focuses carefully, my right hon. Friend assure me that the Government can he see that too, or is his vision of the future will hold firm on this? Scotland already gets shedloads altogether blurrier? of extra money under the Barnett formula. It is entitled 147 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 148 to raise its own taxes, and this Government should Mr. Byrne: I would just like to underline my previous stand firm against this bridge, for which it wants even answer and to say that speed is of the essence now. It is more money. vital that justice be delivered to the policyholders of Equitable Life. At the same time, however, I appreciate Mr. Timms: My hon. Friend makes a forceful point. the enormous burden that has been placed on Sir John Let me simply say that this is an important project, but to get to grips with understanding where there have it needs to be carried out within the economic framework been losses and the scale of those losses, and where applying to the UK as a whole. My right hon. Friend hardship has been caused and the dimensions of that the Chancellor has just set out some of the Government’s hardship. The hon. Lady will appreciate that those constraints and objectives in relation to the public considerations are all vital if Sir John is to establish an finances over the next five years, and this decision needs ex gratia scheme that will correct this injustice that has to be made within that context. so incensed Members of the House.

Equitable Life Mr. Lindsay Hoyle (Chorley) (Lab): We hear what my right hon. Friend has to say, but the truth is that there is 10. Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and not a constituency in the country that has not been Kincardine) (LD): What reports he has received of the touched by the plight of Equitable Life policyholders. progress made by Sir John Chadwick in the The time has now come to show compassion and that formulation of his advice on an Equitable Life ex gratia the Government care. Let us get on with it; let us pay payment scheme. [286200] out the cheques and have done with it once and for all.

11. Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD): What Mr. Byrne: That urgency is shared by me and by reports he has received of the progress made by Sir John Chadwick, but my hon. Friend would agree Sir John Chadwick in the formulation of his advice on that we do not want an ex gratia scheme that does not an Equitable Life ex gratia payment scheme. [286201] correct the injustices, which have been accepted by the Government and widely acknowledged on both sides of The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): the House. My hon. Friend would also accept that Sir John provides regular updates to the Government Sir John has an enormous amount of information to go on progress. He has now established his office and through, and I would rather that he proceeded with appointed key members and the actuarial advisers Towers urgency but produced an ex gratia scheme that is right. Perrin. On 16 June, Sir John issued a document setting out his proposed approach and requesting that representations be made to him by this Friday. Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): A pensioner couple came to see me in my constituency on Friday. Sir Robert Smith: I thank the Minister for his answer. They have suffered greatly because of the collapse of While the ex gratia scheme fails to meet the needs and Equitable Life. They have been living on an overdraft, expectations of the victims of maladministration by the and the bank has pulled the plug on it. The fact that the Government over Equitable Life, it should still be speedily couple hoped to get something from the ex gratia scheme and efficiently introduced. To that end, will he tell us cut no ice with that bank. There are people who are in what time requirement has been placed on Sir John to deep financial difficulty, and I urge the Government to bring in the scheme? Does he also understand that it is get a move on and get some money into their pockets. more than appropriate for Sir John to meet the concerned MPs and members of all-party groups who want to Mr. Byrne: That message is received loud and clear. lobby him on this issue?

Mr. Byrne: That is a fair comment. I spoke to Mr. Mark Hoban (Fareham) (Con): It is now a year Sir John Chadwick about this question this morning, since the ombudsman produced her report and it is six and his office has confirmed that he would be very months since the Government produced their response. happy to continue to receive representations from Members Does the Minister not appreciate just how angry of this House. The question of the speed of his conclusions policyholders are that they still do not know how much is also an important one, but I would like him to they may receive or when they may receive it? Is it not balance speed with coming to the right conclusions. He time for the Government to give a clear deadline for will obviously have to go through an enormous amount when policyholders can expect to receive some payments of information about policyholders, which will have to in recognition of the losses they suffered as a result of be thoroughly analysed before any conclusions can be the Government’s maladministration of the regulation drawn about the right ex gratia scheme to correct this of Equitable Life? injustice. Sir John told me this morning that it will be much easier for him to pin down what the next stages Mr. Byrne: That anger is shared on both sides of the will be after this Friday, when all the representations House, which is why I urge all Members to make have been received. He hopes to publish a further representations to Sir John by this Friday. We have had document pointing out the next steps in August. a couple of good debates over the past few months, and it is important to keep up the momentum behind Jo Swinson: I appreciate what the Minister says about Sir John’s work. That is why he proposed such a short ensuring that we get the right scheme, but nine years timetable for receiving representations about where injustices after this saga started, and with 15 policyholders dying and hardship have been caused, and why I am glad that every day, how much longer does he think it is reasonable he will produce a document setting out his next steps in for people to wait? August. All Members want a speedy resolution now. 149 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 150

Comprehensive Spending Review state of the economy. As we said in the 2009 Budget, we expect growth to return by the end of the year, and it is 12. Mr. David Amess (Southend, West) (Con): What forecast that the economy will pick up progressively steps his Department is taking in preparation for the throughout 2010 and 2011 as the macro-economic stimulus next comprehensive spending review. [286202] builds and credit conditions ease. Hugh Bayley: At the G20 summit in London in The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen March, many other countries took a lead from Britain Timms): As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has in adopting fiscal stimulus packages. When the NATO said, departmental budgets are set until April 2011. We Parliamentary Assembly’s economics committee met are less than half way through the current spending the International Monetary Fund recently, it expressed review and current economic uncertainty makes it unrealistic the belief that such packages were reducing the size of to set departmental budgets now, all the way through to the downturn in the global economy by some 7 per cent. 2014. My right hon. Friend will have more to say about What assessment have the Government made of their that in the pre-Budget report and the Budget. effect in the UK and in other countries?

Mr. Amess: I listened to what the Minister said, but I Ian Pearson: My hon. Friend is right to make the do not think it will or can wash with the House. The basic point that you cannot cut your way out of a British economy is obviously in a terrible state and the recession. The Government have taken concerted action only people who do not realise it are the Government. domestically, but we have also worked very effectively The Institute for Fiscal Studies has said that departmental internationally to ensure a co-ordinated fiscal stimulus, spending will fall between 2011 and 2014. Will the and I think it absolutely right for such action to be Minister now admit that? taken. It is, we believe, starting to have some effect. As the Chancellor said, there is a lot of anxiety out there, Mr. Timms: As I have said to the House, we will set but we stand by our forecasts. One of the key things out departmental budgets at the next spending review. that distinguish us from the Opposition is that we, as There is a good deal of uncertainty, including about the a Government, are taking real action in launching kind of things that the IFS is forecasting at the moment, programmes and providing real support for people and and it would be rash to set out detailed projections and businesses—measures that have been opposed by the commitments at this stage. That is why my right hon. Conservative party. Friend the Chancellor will come back to it later this year or in the Budget next year. Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con): While the more cautious entrepreneurs wait to see whether the Mr. Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con): Is not the truth second shoe of the global crisis is still to fall, does the that this has nothing to do with economic rashness and Treasury understand that early publication of a sound everything to do with political rashness? Is not the real comprehensive financial review would do much to reassure reason why we do not have a comprehensive spending them and bring investment back into the market? review that the Government know that they would have absolutely no chance at a general election if they had to Ian Pearson: We have set an overall direction that is reveal the scale of the cuts required to repair the mess in very clear and was announced in the Budget. As the which they have put this country? hon. Gentleman will know from the evidence of previous recessions, many entrepreneurs who have taken bold Mr. Timms: No, that is certainly not the case. There is actions at such times have grown world-scale businesses an unprecedented worldwide downturn, which we are as a result. We believe that this is a good time for UK dealing with—and dealing with very effectively—but companies to invest in their growth prospects. We want that causes uncertainty. For that reason, it is not right to invest in building Britain’s future, and that is what the to set out public spending forecasts all the way to 2014. Budget has been all about. I would be interested to know from Conservative Members whether, as the shadow International Development Net Contribution to the EU Secretary said yesterday— 14. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): What is Mr. Speaker: Order. I am very grateful to the right his most recent estimate of the UK’s net contribution hon. Gentleman for his thoughts on that matter, but he to the EU in 2010-11. [286204] need not take them any further. The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): Counter-recessionary Policies As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Government’s latest forecast of UK net contributions to the European Community budget was published in table C9 on page 238 13. Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): What recent of the 2009 Budget Red Book. I can tell him, however, assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his that the forecast is for a net contribution of £6.5 billion Department’s policies to counter the effects on the UK in 2010-11. economy of the global recession. [286203] Mr. Bone: I am grateful to the Minister for his reply, The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Ian Pearson): but he forgot to mention that the UK’s contribution is The Government have taken decisive action to support £3.5 billion—117 per cent.—more than it was last year. the UK economy, and we continue to monitor a range We could buy 70 more Chinook helicopters for that. of indicators as part of our overall assessment of the Does the Minister believe that the British people would 151 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 152 rather see billions of pounds given to European farmers Mr. Holloway: Does the Chancellor think that a 50p or spent on extra helicopters to support the brave rate of income tax would slow the economy’s return to servicemen and women who are fighting in Afghanistan? growth?

Ian Pearson: As the hon. Gentleman well knows, our Mr. Darling: As I said in the Budget, it is necessary contributions to the EC budget have been set as a result for us to raise revenues and I think it fair to look to of negotiations. He will be aware of the negotiations people who have the broadest shoulders to take some of that took place in 2005. Only recently, he had an exchange that burden. Other countries will face exactly the same with the Prime Minister in which the Prime Minister problems over the next few months and years, and I made clear our belief that it is right for us to share the believe that the measures I have announced as a whole burden of membership of the European Union with the in the Budget and the pre-Budget report will help to new accession countries so that every part of the European support our economy and help it to grow. Union can look forward to prosperity in the future. As the hon. Gentleman knows very well, that remains T3. [286216]Ms Sally Keeble (Northampton, North) our position. (Lab): Is my hon. Friend aware of the level of concern about the high charges for mortgage arrears being Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): Does charged by some providers—for example, up to £150 the Minister accept, at a time of recession, the importance by a debt counsellor, and up to 2 per cent. in standing of spending as much of our money as possible in the monthly charges? Will he talk to the Financial Services United Kingdom rather than feeding the bottomless pit Authority and see whether some controls or standards of the EU? can be set to keep down the very high charges that are affecting a number of my constituents? Ian Pearson: It is easy to engage in Euro-bashing, but the simple fact is that the UK Government have been The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah trying to recognise the contributions that we are required McCarthy-Fry): We do of course recognise the worries to make to the European Community budget, while at that many households have about meeting mortgage the same time ensuring that we negotiate hard, which payments, keeping their home and falling into negative we were doing on Friday in Brussels and we will continue equity. We will explore any avenue that will help people to do until we agree the budget in November this year in that situation. for 2010. At the same time, we ensure rigorous value for money, and the UK will continue to press strongly on T2. [286215] Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): If all taxpayer that, as we always do. liabilities against RBS and Lloyds are taken into account, the current loss is more like £20 billion, rather than the Personal Debt £11 billion claimed by United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd. In that context, can the Chancellor of the Exchequer give the House an assurance that there 16. Annette Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) will be no early sale of these assets—before the general (LD): What his most recent estimate is of the level of election, say? personal debt in the economy. [286206] Mr. Darling: Yesterday, the UKFI was simply recording The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Sarah the book price of the shares for RBS and Lloyds, which McCarthy-Fry): The Bank of England collects and are actually worth a bit more than in February, but as publishes statistics on the level of personal debt in the the shares are not being sold today, it is not a real loss. I economy, and according to its latest statistics, total can tell the House that it is our policy to return these personal debt was £1.46 trillion in May 2009. shares to the private sector, but we will only do that when it is the right thing to do for the taxpayer, for Annette Brooke: Against that worrying background, financial stability, and for the wider economy. All those my local citizens advice bureau really welcomes debt conditions were clearly set out in both the UKFI annual relief orders but is very concerned about the availability report yesterday, and in the White Paper that I published of intermediaries. Is the hon. Lady aware of those last week on the regulation of financial markets. We will concerns, and what action is she taking? enter into a sale only when we judge that the time is right: in other words, we are in no hurry to do so. Sarah McCarthy-Fry: We are obviously in discussion with all organisations that give debt advice, including T4. [286217] Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) the CAB, and I am sure we will continue to have (Lab): Is the Governor now satisfied that the Bank of discussions on the point that the hon. Lady raises. England has the necessary powers to fulfil its statutory responsibility to protect the stability of the financial system? Topical Questions Mr. Darling: As my hon. Friend knows, I set out the T1. [286214] Mr. Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con): Government’s proposals last week both to strengthen If he will make a statement on his departmental the powers available to the FSA and to build on the responsibilities. additional powers that we gave to the Bank of England under the Banking Act 2009, which was passed earlier The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Alistair Darling): this year. We will continue to consider, with the Governor The core purpose of the Department remains as I set and the FSA, what additional powers might be necessary, out in previous Treasury questions. but the measures I announced last week, which are 153 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 154 broadly in line with what other Governments and countries are being held up through a lack of information, we will are doing in different parts of the world, will make it make sure that steps are taken to accelerate these projects easier in future to ensure that we act on warning signs if and get delays out of the way. things start to go wrong. That is very important. David Taylor (North-West Leicestershire) (Lab/Co-op): T5. [286219] Simon Hughes (North Southwark and Last time I looked, the objectives of the Audit Commission Bermondsey) (LD): While the Chancellor and his were to drive efficiency and effectiveness in local public colleagues are responsible for some bank assets, is there services, but last week its chief executive dismissed not an opportunity to use them to provide guarantees critics of public sector cuts as “shroud wavers”. Will the or loans for the infrastructure that we need for the Minister have a quiet word with Mr. Bundred, put him green and renewable energy products and plant that the back in his box and explain that one of the roles of the Prime Minister and the rest of the Government keep public sector is to help to sustain the economy during a telling us that we need? Is not now the time to use this time of recession? asset at this moment of environmental crisis? Mr. Byrne: That is an argument that the chief executive Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman will no doubt and chairman of the Audit Commission would recognise. recall that in the Budget I set out proposals significantly Indeed, fruitful conversations take place day to day and to increase the amount of money that we are spending week to week between Ministers and the commission to improve environmental and energy efficiency. He will about how we can strengthen the role of local authorities no doubt also be aware that the Secretary of State for in delivering what is a broad package of help, put in Energy and Climate Change will publish a White Paper place and financed by this Government to ensure that tomorrow, which contains significant proposals that this recession does not cut for long or deeply. will go a long way to ensuring that we meet our obligations. We have already done more than most other countries T7. [286225] Andrew George (St. Ives) (LD): With in relation to our Kyoto obligations, and we will continue rising repossessions and 500,000 more families on local to do everything that we can to ensure that we have authority housing registers, what assessment have the secure energy supplies that are much cleaner and greener Government made of the effectiveness of their policy in the future. to intervene to protect those in the most desperate housing need? Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central) (Lab): I wish to return to the subject of the bingo industry. Will my hon. Mr. Byrne: As the House will know, a wide range of Friend seek an early meeting with the Bingo Association measures is in place to ensure that we minimise the to clarify the point that she made on Report, when she number of people who lose their home during this said that she was still waiting for information from recession. I know that the Council of Mortgage Lenders the association about its figures? She also said that the has already revised down at least once the number of industry had accepted the taxation regime that the repossessions that it anticipates this year, and it Government introduced in the Budget. I am sure that acknowledges that it is the rapid action taken by the she meant to say that it had accepted the calculations. Government, and the range of help that has been put in Will she seek an urgent meeting to clarify that information place, that will help to deliver that lower number. Obviously, to the industry? every repossession is a tragedy for the family concerned: we want to ensure that we act to keep such repossessions Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As I clarified earlier, dialogue to an absolute minimum. with the bingo industry is definitely ongoing. The last meeting I had was two weeks ago, at which the industry Mr. Jim Devine (Livingston) (Lab): Will my right presented some data, but they were not complete. We hon. Friend reassure health service workers that the have agreed that the industry will bring more data recommendations of the pay review body will be honoured forward. in full?

T6. [286224] Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): Mr. Byrne: Yes, I will. The Chancellor will be aware that the current comprehensive spending review gave a further £2 billion for PFI initiatives T8. [286227] Mr. Andrew Mackay (Bracknell) (Con): in waste disposal management options to enable the Why does the Chancellor of the Exchequer think that UK to meet its EU landfill directive obligations and the First Secretary told the nation that there would be recycling targets. Does the Minister acknowledge that no comprehensive spending review before the general none of those PFI projects has gone forward because election? the banks need more details and more reassurance, so the landfill targets will not be delivered within the Mr. Darling: I listened very carefully to all the interviews prescribed time limit? given by my right hon. Friend during the course of that day and I entirely agree with much of what he said. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Liam Byrne): This is the kind of infrastructure project that we keep Mr. Ken Purchase (Wolverhampton, North-East) (Lab/ under constant review. It is also closely watched by Co-op): I urge my right hon. Friend the Chancellor to regional Ministers through the work that I do with the continue with his present economic policy, remembering Minister for Regional Economic Development and the chaos brought about by the Lady Thatcher Government Co-ordination, my right hon. Friend the Member for through the cuts that they introduced in the immediate Doncaster, Central (Ms Winterton). We will look into post-1979 period. Looking to the future, will he resist the schemes that the hon. Lady highlights, and if they the idea that he should commit to an overview of the 155 Oral Answers14 JULY 2009 Oral Answers 156 future years, given that the Conservatives are simply and what will be available in a reasonably immediate looking for legitimacy for the planned cuts that they time scale—perhaps until the end of the year—so that wish to announce? there is no misunderstanding or ambiguity among all who are involved and all who are interested? Will he Mr. Darling: My hon. Friend is quite right. Under the take this opportunity? Conservatives, there would be cuts now followed by more cuts later. He is also right that they are looking for Mr. Darling: It is very important that we support our cover for what they have always wanted to do and for troops on the front line in Afghanistan and elsewhere. I what they have always done. can tell the House that in the year 2006-07, we spent Adam Price (Carmarthen, East and Dinefwr) (PC): £700 million on urgent operational requirements. That Given that the Calman commission in Scotland and, rose to £1.5 billion in 2007-08 and £2.6 billion in last week, the Holtham commission in Wales have now 2008-09. This year, we expect to spend more than produced their reports on the Barnett formula, will the £3 billion in support of our troops. Our commitment to Government publish their factual paper on the formula, our troops is essential, especially at this time when so which was first promised in January 2008? many people are facing dangers—we have been reminded over the past few days of the tremendous sacrifice that Mr. Byrne: As the House will know, another place is has been made by so many people, not just for Afghanistan looking in some depth at the whole question of the but for this country, too. Barnett formula and how it should operate in the years to come. We will look very closely at what emerges from Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): On Sunday, a the Holtham commission, too. The next real bit of news constituent aged over 80 came to see me. He said that he will be the report from the ad hoc committee that was was now receiving his 25p pension supplement, which set up in another place. he saw as a gross insult. It does not even buy a pint of milk. When is the Chancellor going to sort that out? Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): It is right for our Government to have a commitment to gaining the same Mr. Darling: I know that the hon. Gentleman is not sort of benefit for Britain from the new technologies to the only Member of this House to have had constituents limit carbon emissions as we gained from manufacturing raise the question of the 25p age addition. However, I in the industrial revolution. My right hon. Friend the am quite sure that he took the opportunity to point out Chancellor, in replying to the hon. Member for North that his constituent received the increased winter fuel Southwark and Bermondsey (Simon Hughes), said that payment—something that his constituent would not he had introduced measures in the Budget. Has he any have received had there been a Conservative Government. estimate of the number of jobs that might result from these measures to develop new low-carbon technologies? Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): With this being the final opportunity for the Chancellor to address Mr. Darling: I believe that there will be thousands of the House before it resumes in October, will he rise jobs created in the future through new green technology. at the Dispatch Box and apologise to the House and That is all the more reason why we should resist calls to the British people for presiding over the precipitate start cutting public spending now when public spending decline in our public finances? It is the worst fall of any can be used to help our industries to compete in the OECD country, and his is the worst record of any future. That is another clear dividing line between the Chancellor, ever. two sides in this House. We believe that Government have the power to influence things and to ensure that we Mr. Darling: The hon. Gentleman is talking nonsense, can be at the forefront of these new industries, which and I suspect that he knows it. Like every country in the will create thousands of jobs in the future. world, we are facing the severest downturn for well in Mr. Richard Spring (West Suffolk) (Con): Given the excess of 60 years. The difference between this side of parlous state of the public finances and the need to the House and his side is that, faced with that, we took borrow so extensively internationally, does the right action to support our economy and stabilise the banking hon. Gentleman not understand that the failure to system. We then made sure that we put money into the bring forward a comprehensive spending review will economy to help us get through this. Most other countries make it even more difficult and uncertain to borrow believe that that is the right thing to do. It is only the from the capital markets? Conservative party in this country that has made it clear that, far from supporting families and businesses, Mr. Darling: No, I do not. If the hon. Gentleman it would make cuts this year, next year and the year looks at the international commentary and studies into after. our economy, he will see that most of them believe that what we do and what we are doing is exactly right and is Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): Can the Chancellor in contrast to the policies that he and his fellow confirm that there will be extra resources for constituencies Conservatives advocate, which is to do nothing. I do such as mine, where the number of children seeking not believe that that is a sensible thing to do at a time primary school places exceeds the number of places like this. available? Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): Will the Chancellor Mr. Darling: My right hon. Friend the Secretary of take this opportunity to amplify that which he uttered State for Children, Schools and Families has made it on television a few days ago about adequate funding for clear already that there will be a guarantee in place from our armed forces in the Afghanistan conflict? Will he this September. He keeps what schools require under make it abundantly clear at the Dispatch Box now what review, so that we can ensure that we maintain our funding is immediately available to our armed forces commitment to the children of this country. 157 14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 158

Care and Support (Reform) care needs. For the first time, everyone, regardless of their bank balance, would get some help to pay for their 3.32 pm basic care; everyone would get the same entitlement wherever they live in the country; and everyone would The Secretary of State for Health (Andy Burnham): get advice and information to help them to find the care With permission, Mr. Speaker, I should like to make a that is right for them. statement on the care and support Green Paper “Shaping Secondly, we need a system that is much simpler for the Future of Care Together”. people to understand and use. A new standardised Last year, the country celebrated the 60th anniversary national assessment would mean that wherever people of the national health service, an idea that emerged lived they could be confident that they would be treated from the post-war consensus on the need for a fairer the same way, and if they moved their entitlement approach to health care. Today, as the NHS has improved would not change. health and life expectancy, a new challenge has emerged It is also time to say clearly that it is unacceptable and and is becoming more urgent. unfair for people to be denied any help to find the right The challenge can be summarised in three simple but services simply because they are over the current £23,000 striking facts. First, male life expectancy is now 78 years, threshold. Under a national care service, that practice compared to just 66 in 1948. Secondly, there are now will stop. Everyone will get information and advice, more over-65s than under-18s and, thirdly, whereas giving a clear point of entry into the care system and there were eight working adults per retired person in the ongoing support to find the services that they need. 1940s, today there are just four. By 2050, that figure will People also tell us that their experience is compromised fall to just two. So the debate that we face as a country is by the fractured nature of care and support. A national how to provide support, dignity and independence for care service must therefore build on the progress already all, in a care system that is fair, dependable and universal. made to break down boundaries between health, housing Today’s Green Paper starts that debate. and care services so that people get the seamless, Half of all men and two thirds of women will develop wraparound support that they need. In particular, it is care needs after the age of 65. In many cases, their needs time to make health and social care more equal partners, are met informally by the silent army of carers and so that they can work together to put prevention at the family members who work so tirelessly, often under heart of everything we do. We are therefore proposing a great pressure, behind closed doors. I want to start by new entitlement to six weeks’ reablement support for paying tribute to their huge contribution to our society, any older person leaving hospital with care needs as and stressing that everything that we are proposing well as better co-ordination between housing and care, today must build on the solid bedrock of support that building on initiatives such as supported living, extra they provide. care housing, telecare and adaptations to homes or The challenge that we face is that many more people workplaces. are now developing more serious needs that demand In this pursuit of higher-quality services, we must do specialist care over the long term. A typical 65-year-old more to improve the social care work force, raising their can expect to need care costing £30,000 throughout status as a profession, investing in front-line staff and their life, but that average masks a huge range. For sending out a clear message from this House today that about a fifth of people, the figure is less than a £1,000; we as a society place a value on what they do on behalf for another fifth, it is in excess of £50,000, and for those of us all. with complex, long-term needs—such as those with Finally, there is the challenge of fairness. We need to dementia—the costs can rise above £200,000. So the create a system that is equitable for people of all generations time has come to meet this difficult challenge, and to see and all backgrounds, and which shares out the risk and whether we can establish a broad consensus about the responsibility for care more evenly.Over the past 12 months, best way forward. the Government have explored the full continuum of A country is defined by how it cares for its older funding options—from completely private to completely people, and we need to acknowledge that as a society we state-funded. We rejected, on the one hand, a system in can do better. We need a care system that people can which everyone is responsible for paying for their own rely on, that does not penalise people for their prudence care, and on the other a 100 per cent. tax-funded system and that ends the cruel lottery of older people facing in which people of all ages contribute to the cost of the financial hardship because they happen to get dementia, care service. In our judgment, the former would leave for example, rather than cancer. We must also address those on the lowest incomes stranded and those with the inconsistencies—the fact that two people with the high needs facing huge costs. The latter would saddle same needs living in different parts of the country can younger people with the lion’s share of costs for older have very different experiences of care. people’s care, via higher taxes. So today we propose a new national care service, Instead, we are putting forward three options for which would correct the flaws of the present system and consultation. The first is a partnership model in which establish core principles on which to base this new both the state and the individual share responsibility for system. Those principles are universality, simplicity, funding care. Everyone would get a set proportion—either prevention and fairness. On the first, universality, people a third or a quarter—of their basic care costs paid for have told us that they want a universal system that by the state. They would then have to pay the remainder offers everyone a basic package of care and support. themselves. To fund this new entitlement, we will consult Under the national care service, people will get the on plans to bring other benefits, for example attendance reassurance and confidence of a universal system, with allowance, into social care funding. We would do this in the security to plan for the future, and the certainty a way that guaranteed that anybody currently receiving that, whatever happens, they will get help with their an affected benefit would continue to receive an equivalent 159 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 160

[Andy Burnham] The Secretary of State has been wandering around the television studios this morning telling us that the level of support. There would also be a progressive standards of adult social care have gone down and element to the partnership model. The less well-off down. He tells us how cruel the lottery of support for would have a higher proportion paid for, while those on the elderly is. He tells us how unfair it is that people are the lowest incomes would continue to get all their care forced to sell their homes to fund their long-term care. for free. Which Government does he think has been in charge The second option, a voluntary insurance model, is for the past 12 years? Which Government promised an extension of the first. People would get the same 12 years ago to stop people being forced to sell their minimum proportion of basic care paid for through the homes to fund their long-term care? Which Government national care service, but they could then choose to take rejected the findings of their own royal commission? out insurance against the cost of the remaining care, Which Government sidelined the King’s Fund review? through either a state-backed insurance programme or Which Government kicked the issue into the long grass a partnership between the state and private companies. in their 2007 spending review? Frankly, we do not need Thirdly and finally, there is the comprehensive model. simply to start another debate. One debate always seems Under that model, everyone over retirement age would to roll into another with this Government. We need a pay into a state insurance scheme, and would then get decision, and we need serious, costed proposals to be the full cost of their basic care met by the state. However, the basis for that decision. that would mean everyone over 65 making a contribution May I ask the Secretary of State where exactly he to the system, even though they may not ultimately proposes that the funds should come from for the receive any care. increased Government contribution to the costs of long- At this stage, we are talking about the principle, term care? If he is promising to provide a universal rather than the detail, of those models, but to give the minimum care component, he must know how he will House a sense of the likely costs, and working with a pay for it, so I have a simple question: what would be £30,000 figure for the average cost of a person’s care the additional cost to the taxpayer of having either a today, the partnership model would see someone paying quarter or a third of basic care costs paid for by the between £20,000 and £22,500, although obviously some state? I can see no evidence in the Green Paper of that would pay a lot more and others a lot less. Under the crucial number. However, if Members look up page 108 insurance model, indicative figures suggest that people of the Green Paper, when they can, they will find the would pay a lump sum of between £20,000 and £25,000 following sentence: for their cover. Under the comprehensive model, “For example, everyone might have a quarter or a third of their the figure could be somewhere between £17,000 and care costs paid for by the state.” £20,000. There is a footnote to that sentence, and in this Green Under the insurance and comprehensive options, people Paper, as in most Government documents, the footnote could choose how to meet the costs. They could do so is the most important bit. That footnote says: by paying a lump sum on retirement, by deferring their state pension, by paying in instalments during retirement, “For the purposes of modelling the options, we have made or by paying from their estate after death. In the longer assumptions about the level of funding that the state would put term, we could develop a system whereby people who in, but these do not reflect a decision about central government are still working could make regular contributions, so investment in care and support.” that they could pay their contributions on retirement. In truth, the Government have not even published their These are radical and serious proposals. I recognise assumptions about state funding. that many people care deeply about the issues that the When the Secretary of State comes to pay for the debate raises, and we need a dignified discussion to do scheme, is he proposing to do so by cutting disability justice to their concerns. Such is the significance of the benefits? Can he confirm that he is proposing to scrap issues to every single person in the country that we new entitlements to attendance allowance and other would move forward only if a broad consensus were to benefits to pay for the Government’s contribution to develop around one or two of the options. social care? With reference to his voluntary insurance In conclusion, it is important that we do not flinch model, if the effective premium is some £20,00-plus per from this debate. A failure to act would mean a future person, what is the Government’s estimate of the likely of increasing pressure on services, a decline in the take-up? By what means would the Government ensure quality of care that we can offer the most vulnerable, that the risk pool is large enough to make the scheme and ever greater costs on the most unfortunate. That is effective? How can he avoid people opting into the not a prospect that I—or, I am sure, other hon. Members— system only if they are more likely to need care? wish to contemplate. I commend the statement to the House. On the third option, the so-called comprehensive model, the Secretary of State surely means not comprehensive, but compulsory. Does he have any view Mr. Andrew Lansley (South Cambridgeshire) (Con): I as between voluntary and compulsory insurance? Is he am grateful to the Secretary of State for making a copy in favour of compulsory or voluntary insurance? of the Green Paper available to me an hour ago. Of course, there has been the usual ration of leaks; in this I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will agree that we instance, they were mostly kites flown in advance. Ministers need national standards—some consistency of assessment. dithered for months on publishing the document. They We have long argued for that, and of course there needs seemed to spend most of the time between the planned to be central Government support, but we do not need a spring publication and mid-July trying to get any of nationalised social care service. It is surely a retrograde their kites to fly. step to remove local government from the equation. 161 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 162

The Secretary of State spoke about the need for a the idea that our existing investment to help people to consensus. If the Government were serious about that, deal with the costs of care can be better spent by they would long ago have consulted on costed options. combining investment in social care with disability benefits, All we have today is another document, long on options particularly attendance allowance. That is at the heart and short on costs and conclusions, published in the of our proposals today. hope that it will see the Government through to an The hon. Gentleman also asked about the estimated election, when it will no longer be their problem. That is take-up of the voluntary option, and there is a figure, not good enough. albeit only indicative, of about 20 per cent. The trade-off Help the Aged has told us: with a voluntary option is that because fewer people “The social care system is broken and...millions of older may enter the scheme, the cost would be higher; on the people are failed each year.” other hand, under any comprehensive or compulsory Four years ago we made it clear that there needs to be a option, people would not have the choice but the cost partnership approach. We made it clear that we need a might well be lower. He asked whether I favour a system whereby people can be sure that their care needs comprehensive or compulsory option, and I believe that are supported, a system that raises the quality of care the option deserves a fair hearing. However, this is a provided in people’s homes as well as in residential and Green Paper; we are putting forward three broad options nursing care, reverses the decline in productivity in the for the country to debate, and it would be wrong to social care sector, and ends the scandal of people being force the pace of that debate. I said very clearly at the forced to sell their home or lose their lifetime savings end of my statement, if he was listening, that a broad simply because they are unfortunate enough to need consensus would need to develop in the country around long-term care. We will build a system that guarantees one of those options before any one of them could be our older citizens the care and dignity they deserve. taken forward. I was disappointed to hear the hon. Gentleman rule Andy Burnham: I cannot be alone in finding the tone out, so early in this debate, the notion of a national care in which the hon. Gentleman introduced his comments service, or of moving towards more national standards disappointing. Older people watching the debate today and entitlements in care. If he reads the Green Paper, he will want not the usual slanging match, but a better and will see that we do not propose to remove the role of more serious debate about the serious proposals that we local government; we say that it would continue to have have put forward. They will also think that the Green a crucial role to play in delivering such national entitlement Paper we issued today and the options in it deserve a to people in all parts of the country. However, he has hearing. leapt up with knee-jerk responses to the Green Paper. The hon. Gentleman says that that is not good enough, He has not come to the House with a considered and suggests that nothing has happened. The Government response to the serious issues that it raises. It is the have increased funding for social care by 40 per cent. It product of three years’ work among a number of is fair to ask whether that would have happened if the Departments, and it deserves a better hearing than the Opposition had been in government. We have not been one that he has given it this afternoon. doing nothing. We have been investing in social care, and it is this Government who have put forward proposals Norman Lamb (North Norfolk) (LD): I thank the to give people more control over that budget, giving Secretary of State for early sight of the statement and them direct payments so that they can build and buy the the Green Paper. The truth is, however, that it comes kind of services that they want to live their life. That 12 years too late. It is this Government’s shameful came from the Government, so it is not true that legacy that they will leave office having failed to reform nothing has been happening. a system that the Secretary of State himself has described as a cruel lottery. The former Prime Minister said that The hon. Gentleman mentioned the royal commission. he did not want [Interruption.] He will recall that the royal commission failed to find a consensus about the way forward, contrary “a country where the only way pensioners can get long term care to what he said. The royal commission came up with a is by selling their home”. majority and a minority report. That, in itself, identifies Yet 12 years on, nothing has changed; in fact, it has got how hard it is to take these issues forward. [Interruption.] much worse. Many elderly people have been left with There are no easy answers, and the subject should inadequate care as criteria for care have been tightened not be the stuff of straightforward tit-for-tat slanging and charges increased. Now we have a set of ideas that matches in the House. We deserve a better debate about cannot be implemented this side of a general election, social care. and the real risk is that the issue will disappear again into the long grass. The hon. Gentleman asked me about additional costs— [Interruption.] There are principles in this Green Paper which we welcome. The Liberal Democrats have called for a Mr. Speaker: Order. There is far too much chuntering universal entitlement, a focus on prevention and the from a sedentary position from those on the Opposition availability of advice and support. We support the idea Front Bench. The hon. Member for Eddisbury of an entitlement to six weeks of reablement following (Mr. O’Brien) will have ample opportunity over a period discharge from hospital, and we absolutely support the to express his views from the Front Bench at the Dispatch importance of giving carers and care workers much Box, but he should not do it by sedentary chuntering. more respect and the dignity that they deserve. We pay tribute to their work in very difficult circumstances. Andy Burnham: The hon. Member for South On the voluntary option, will the Secretary of State Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) asked me about additional publish the assumptions about take-up to which he cost to the taxpayer. The foundation of our proposals is referred? Does he accept that with both the voluntary 163 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 164

[Norman Lamb] On some of the specifics that the hon. Gentleman raised, the estimated take-up of voluntary options will insurance model and the comprehensive model, there is be in the impact assessment published alongside the bound to be a short-term funding shortfall? Will he rule Green Paper. Obviously, the figures that we gave are out any increase in national insurance or council tax to broad, but they give an indication based on international pay for it? Will he publish all the costing documents? If experience. we are to build a consensus, that is surely necessary. We have ruled out increasing national insurance What happens to the current generation of retired people— contributions because we felt that it would not be fair to those who are well over retirement age? Will they be the working-age population of today to put all the costs able to make a payment into a voluntary scheme? And of care on to them. We think that a fairer approach is what about people with existing care needs? What about the partnership that underpins all three options that we their circumstances? have put forward. Given the risk that the issue could be pushed into the The hon. Gentleman asked whether we would continue long grass, and given that no one will have any confidence to deal with the existing care needs of people already in in a Conservative Government facing up to these real retirement. I can assure him that if we were to bring challenges, will the Secretary of State establish without forward a White Paper with more detailed proposals, it delay a cross-party commission, in the style of Lord would reflect the fact that some people would already Turner’s pension commission, to achieve consensus and, be past the age of 65; that would have to be borne crucially, to commit any incoming Government to urgent in mind. reform? Surely we owe it to those with care needs to stop the talking and act now. Ms Patricia Hewitt (Leicester, West) (Lab): I warmly welcome the substance of my right hon. Friend’s statement Andy Burnham: In response to the hon. Gentleman’s and the spirit in which he made it. As the Government final point, we are publishing these proposals today take forward the debate on the three funding options because we do not want this debate to go into the long that they have put forward, can he assure me that they grass. will also continue to build on the excellent work that Picking up on the welcome spirit of some of the hon. has been done with personal budgets and direct payments Gentleman’s remarks, I take it that he may be interested so that people receiving help with their care needs will in working with us on some of these options to continue to get as much choice and control as possible see whether we can build a consensus around them. I over the way those services are given to them? welcome his support for some of the principles and specifics, such as reablement care and the importance of Andy Burnham: I thank my right hon. Friend for her the social care work force. We do not spend enough comments. I pay tribute to her for the work that she did time in this House talking about the importance of the when I served as her deputy in the Department of social care workforce and how we can invest in their Health to introduce direct payments, which were professional development and recognise the huge controversial at the time but are now widely regarded as contribution that they make. They do some of the least the right way to give people control and choice over the glamorous work in our society, and yet all our families care services that they receive. I want to give her the depend on them, including mine over many years. They clear assurance that any development of a national care provide services that are crucial to our families, and we service will take as its foundation that vision of social thank them for it. care, where the individual is empowered and able to I reject the hon. Gentleman’s main allegation—if I bring in services to support them in living independently may put it that way—that this is all 12 years too late. and having the best quality of life that they possibly can This Government have been investing in improving in retirement. social care over the past decade; it is not true that we just sat back and have done nothing. We have put some Several hon. Members rose— £520 million into Putting People First, the scheme to give more personal control over social care funding. We Mr. Speaker: Order. A further 24 Members are seeking were the first Government to bring in a national carers to catch my eye. As ever, I would like to accommodate strategy, which had a whole range of measures to help as many as I can, but I am looking to each hon. or right carers, recognising the invaluable work that they do for hon. Member to ask one brief supplementary question, the country. More recently, we published a dementia and of course to the Secretary of State to provide us strategy, with £150 million attached to its introduction. with a pithy reply. All that is underpinned by a 44 per cent. increase in social care funding from this Labour Government. I do Mr. Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con): May I invite not think people would believe that a Conservative the Secretary of State to respond to his own challenge Government would have put anything like that level of to rise above the party political ding-dong and recognise funding into social care. that if we are going to address this issue seriously, we The hon. Gentleman said that I acknowledged the first have to ask whether any additional Government current system was not good enough. I say that absolutely funding is available for any of the solutions that are explicitly. I do not believe that we are doing as well as canvassed at the end of the Green Paper? It is the we might by older people, and I was hoping that collectively absence of additional Government funding that has we may work to develop a consensus on proposals to do prevented the emergence of consensus at earlier stages. better. Conservative Front Benchers have already ruled Did he say—I think I heard him say this to my hon. that out, but I hope that at least we and the hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire Member for North Norfolk (Norman Lamb) can work (Mr. Lansley)—that no additional funding would be together to address it. available from any source for any of the funding options? 165 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 166

Andy Burnham: I can explain to the right hon. Gentleman social care more equal partners in providing support for that I said clearly in answer to his colleague that we an individual. None of us can really feel comfortable would better spend the existing resources that we put with the notion that those who develop the very highest into supporting people with care needs. There is no care needs through dementia or Alzheimer’s continue commitment to additional funding, but what we are to pay £200,000 or more to meet their care needs in saying is that the additional funding could be brought later life. into the system through the range of proposals that we have put forward. As somebody for whom I have great Mrs. Joan Humble (Blackpool, North and Fleetwood) respect in this area, and as a predecessor of mine in this (Lab): I very much welcome the clarity and certainty job, I hope that he will give the proposals that we have that the Secretary of State today offers care services put forward today a hearing. I believe that they deserve users. Will he ensure that the debate on the options for a fair hearing, and as I have said, we would do a great payment also covers the sorts of services that should be service by older people if we could reach consensus available as part of the universal option so that individuals throughout the House. know who is paying for their care and what it entails? Above all, they should be in control of their care and Mr. David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside) (Lab): Does managing their own budgets. my right hon. Friend agree that the army of family and informal voluntary carers to whom he paid tribute at Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend makes an important the beginning of his statement require not only support point. I pay tribute to her as chair of the all-party group but an enhancement of the number of people encouraged on social care and for her work on the subject down the to give time, energy and commitment, including in years. She congratulates us on the clarity of the options. retirement, to keeping the glue of civil society together? It would have been easier to pick up on some of the Will he therefore consider issuing at the point of retirement points that Opposition Members made and produce a a pack containing details of how those going into timid and bland Green Paper, which was high on analysis retirement and remaining healthy can get in touch with and short on concrete options. With the Minister for voluntary and statutory organisations that could help Care Services, the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the them to use their time and talent to the betterment Member for Corby (Phil Hope), we have decided not to of others? do that, but to put some serious options on the table, with all the risk that that entails. Very serious proposals Andy Burnham: I certainly recognise from my own for reform are not without risk, but if politicians are not family experience, as I am sure other hon. Members do prepared to take it, we will continue the drift and the from theirs, the intolerable pressures that carers and delay, and we will not address the issues in the long families face at times in trying to meet the care needs of term. If we are to build consensus for one of those loved ones and relatives. I say again that we are all options, there needs to be clarity about what people get indebted to the efforts of carers up and down the for what they put in. My hon. Friend the Member for country, and that any visions for the reform of care and Blackpool, North and Fleetwood (Mrs. Humble) will support must be based on the idea that families and see that the Green Paper spells out a clear vision for communities continue to look after one another. A prevention, reablement and giving people the maximum basic concept of neighbourliness and obligation to one ability to lead a full and independent life for as long another is the bedrock on which any system must be as possible. based. My right hon. Friend’s suggestion is good, but we Sir George Young (North-West Hampshire) (Con): will also need to draw on the support of the voluntary Much in the Secretary of State’s statement can be and charitable bodies in the sector that provide wonderful welcomed, particularly the sentence, “It is time to make support to older people. I will explore the proposals health and social care more equal partners.” Does the that he has made with that in mind. right hon. Gentleman accept that, in the past 12 years, the national health service has had a much more generous Jeremy Wright (Rugby and Kenilworth) (Con): The deal than social care and that, in many parts of the Secretary of State referred to the wish to see a system country, social care services departments are under real that “ends the cruel lottery of older people facing pressure? Does he also accept that, whatever the option financial hardship” because they happen to get dementia chosen, we need a step change in support for social care rather than cancer, for example. I applaud that sentiment, simply to meet the needs of demography? but he must know that one of the main reasons for that distinction is that those who have dementia are considered Andy Burnham: I thank the right hon. Gentleman for to have social care needs, not health care needs. In all his comments, but that is the logic of our proposals. the possible options that he has set out, extra finance However, unlike the national health service, the basis will be required from a person who needs dementia for funding social care will have to come not from care. Will he look again at that distinction? taxation but from a partnership between the state and the individual, and the new resources will come from Andy Burnham: First, I pay tribute to the hon. one of the three options that are proposed. I am grateful Gentleman, who I know takes great interest in the that he picked up on the sentence that he cited—I matter and has done very good work. I recognise the carefully inserted the notion of health and social care as basic problem that he identifies, which is that some more equal partners. It is not possible to say that they people with dementia get some help with the costs of are equal partners today. Alongside the debate, we need their health care needs but not those of their social care to focus seriously on improving quality, and the calling needs. That is essentially the point that we are addressing of social care as a profession. I very much hope that in the Green Paper. We want to integrate services around someone with the right hon. Gentleman’s authority will those individuals and, as I have said, make health and add to that debate. 167 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 168

Mrs. Ann Cryer (Keighley) (Lab): I wonder whether Mr. David Curry (Skipton and Ripon) (Con): Care of my right hon. Friend feels that the options that he has the elderly is sometimes the hidden and often the given this afternoon, which I appreciate, will help some unrecognised industry in my constituency and hundreds of my constituents in care homes, who are being cared of others, but it cannot be delivered without a vigorous for by people with little knowledge of how to care for private care home sector. Will the Secretary of State elderly people? Many of those carers have no or very recognise that the Government have their role to play in little English, possibly because they are paid the basic ensuring that they do not load costs on to that sector—for minimum wage and because some—only some—care example, through the minimum wage or holiday home owners are interested only in profit making rather entitlement—knowing that, in the decade of public than caring. expenditure austerity that we are about to enter, they have no hope whatever of recovering those costs from Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend makes a powerful local authorities? point. It is important to send out a message from today’s statement that we want a debate about social Andy Burnham: I am troubled by the right hon. care and its status, and to take it more seriously. We Gentleman’s remarks. If he is saying that the minimum could do that if we could bring in more resources for wage or the standards that we introduced in care homes providing services for older and disabled people. My in the Care Standards Act 2000 have not helped to hon. Friend makes an important point. I said in my improve the quality of care, I would take issue with that statement, and I repeat, that carers do some of the most very strongly. If he is also saying that care staff should important work, on which we all depend, yet the message not have basic entitlements to holiday, how will being that they get from society in terms of what they are paid run off their feet, not getting a proper break and not may not always reflect that. being properly paid enable them to give better quality care to older people? I find the logic of his question Mr. Paul Burstow (Sutton and Cheam) (LD): Many completely wrong, but I do accept that the private care people outside the House who have followed for many sector has a huge role to play in delivering the vision years the issue of how we pay for long-term care will that we have set out in the Green Paper. experience a terrible sense of déjà vu about the statement. Will the Secretary of State please “not flinch”, as he said himself, and set out the timetable that he intends to Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): I very much welcome follow for making decisions about the public expenditure my right hon. Friend’s announcement about the national implications of the proposals and, more important, for care service and, in particular, the fact that he has been introducing his plans at the Dispatch Box? so explicit about the thorny issue of costs. Indeed, one of my predecessors, Jim Griffiths, would have been Andy Burnham: If the hon. Gentleman will forgive proud of this reform, which is the equivalent of his type me, I do not think that he can claim déjà vu because we of reform. However, the announcement obviously covers have not previously had a Green Paper that puts serious reserved matters and devolved issues. What talks has Government proposals for care on the table. We had a my right hon. Friend had with Welsh Assembly Ministers royal commission, but as I said to the shadow Health about how the reforms will work out in Wales and Secretary, it did not identify consensus on a way forward. Scotland? What I have announced today is new territory. We want a serious debate, and the hon. Member for Sutton and Andy Burnham: I am grateful for the generous welcome Cheam (Mr. Burstow) can help us build consensus. It is that my hon. Friend has given the Green Paper. Obviously right that, if we can reach consensus about the debate, any reform of benefits would have implications for the the subject should become a serious issue of consideration devolved Administrations. My hon. Friend the Minister at the next general election so that the public can choose for Care Services has had discussions with counterparts the party that has the best solution to the serious and in the Welsh Assembly and we will continue to do that. long-term challenges. However, the proposal in today’s announcement is for England. The national care service would apply in Mr. Parmjit Dhanda (Gloucester) (Lab): May I associate England only, although we would encourage the Welsh myself with the remarks of my right hon. Friend the Assembly to go down a similar route if it wanted to. Member for Sheffield, Brightside (Mr. Blunkett) about family members? Taking that on board, will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State consider a fourth Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): The Secretary option for family members, by using either tax relief or of State has been very courageous with his proposals, grants to support the building of granny annexes, in particularly in suggesting that social care will be funded order to allow family members to keep the capital gain, in future partly by the state and partly by private to save the Government money and to create a far more insurance. He also suggested a link with health. Does he caring culture in our country? see the future expansion of the national health service being partly funded by private insurance? Andy Burnham: That is a very good point, but it is already the case that people can use personal budgets to Andy Burnham: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s help to offset the costs of family members as my hon. generous comments. I know that he has proposed some Friend describes. However, I encourage him to work fundamental options about the privatisation of the up his ideas. Given that we have tabled three serious national health service. That is not something that I options, I am not ruling out others. As I said to my right would ever contemplate in this role, although we are hon. Friend, it is very important that we recognise, saying that the funding of care and support should be encourage and incentivise the role of the family community on a different basis from the funding of the national in this debate. health service. 169 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 170

Malcolm Wicks (Croydon, North) (Lab): Given that system in which people get more help to understand this has been a growing issue for hundreds of thousands what is available to them, regardless of their background of families for at least 25 years, and given also that we or their needs. Any proposals for reform must have that should acknowledge the cross-governmental failure to consideration very much at their heart. grasp the nettle of long-term costs, will the Secretary of State agree to be at least as bold as William Beveridge Dr. William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP): I am was in 1942, when he looked at the risks facing early sure that the Secretary of State appreciates the fact that, post-war society in a radical way and came up with across the United Kingdom, many people are concerned ambitious programmes that, by and large, have stood about growing old and feel vulnerable when they consider the test of time? what care is going to be available for them. It is certainly unacceptable to force them to sell their homes to pay Andy Burnham: I must pay tribute to the huge experience for their care. Speaking of national care services, is it and authority that my right hon. Friend brings to these not imperative to hold meetings as soon as possible matters, and to his long experience of social care in this between the Department of Health and the devolved country. If he reads the Green Paper, he will find the Administrations, Northern Ireland included? same boldness in this debate. The issues are similar, in that we are asking people to consider whether a system Andy Burnham: Of course, and we will continue our of mutual support is better than the status quo. The discussions with Michael McGimpsey and others in debates that were in play during the creation of the Northern Ireland. Perhaps we can learn from the system welfare state are very much alive now and at the heart of in Northern Ireland, which has always had much closer this debate. How far we go will obviously depend on integration between health and social care. The hon. how much support each option attracts in the country, Gentleman is right to say that we want a system that and I hope that my right hon. Friend will join us in will prevent people from having to sell their homes; that ensuring that the debate is a vigorous one. is a basic unfairness that we want to end. The current average cost of care is £30,000, and each of the three Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley) (Con): There are options that we have put forward today comes in at less more than 6 million carers out there, including family than that amount. That is why we feel that they are and friends, and 1 million of them look after more than doable and that they could possibly be made attractive one person. Fortunately, we have in our constituencies to people. However, it is important that we have the organisations such as Crossroads, which look after the broadest possible debate, not just in England but carers and recognise that they have health needs themselves. across the UK, about the choices that we all face in an What more can be done to support those who care for ageing society. the carers? Mr. Gordon Marsden (Blackpool, South) (Lab): Andy Burnham: The hon. Gentleman is right, and Blackpool has above-average numbers of older people Crossroads is a wonderful example; I know the organisation and care homes, and my constituents will be grateful for well. Of course, there is always more that we can do. the breadth of vision and the sensitivity that my right The carers strategy was an innovation, and it has recently hon. Friend has demonstrated today—compared with been updated and comes with a significant investment the rather sour waffle from the Opposition Benches, I alongside it. We can never be complacent about what am sorry to say. He has talked about the need to we do to help carers. However, my basic argument strengthen the role of social care staff. Will he tell us today is that if we can improve the services that older what opportunities there will be in the consultation to people receive, we can relieve the pressure on the carers look at issues such as greater skills for social care staff and enable them to do more. and greater flexibility for them to visit people in the given time? At the moment, for example, travel time is Ms Dari Taylor (Stockton, South) (Lab): I warmly not included in their working hours. welcome and support my right hon. Friend’s statement today, but I would say to him that this area of policy is Andy Burnham: On my hon. Friend’s first point, the seen by all as being incredibly complex. It is invariably investment in the work force is vital and the social care individual in nature, and its complexity can leave families skill set is crucial. We have already begun work on that with the most crippling problems. Will he assure the in the Department. Again, we want to take any new House that everyone’s contributions to the consultation— resources in the system to develop what we are doing including those of organisations representing the elderly further. On his point about the tone and nature of the and of families who care for the elderly—will be listened debate, I think that on this particular issue we have to to? Will the consultation be publicised as much as do better across the House than we usually do and possible, so that we can hear what all our people are ensure that we do not reduce the debate to a simplistic saying? slanging match. It is important to give these issues the serious airing and hearing they deserve. We will do a Andy Burnham: My hon. Friend raises an important greater service to older people by identifying a way point. A positive development alongside the publication forward between us that, if not ideal for everybody, at of the Green Paper will be the formation of a care least provides a workable compromise that will make alliance involving 31 national organisations representing things better than they are today. the whole breadth of opinion in this area. We need to empower them to take the debate out to their members. Bob Spink (Castle Point) (Ind): The right hon. Gentleman My hon. Friend is also right to say that the lack of is absolutely right to bring these bold options before us simplicity in the current system diminishes people’s for the longer term and to have a genuine debate, which understanding of the issues. We need a much clearer is long overdue. Does he accept that we urgently need, 171 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 172

[Bob Spink] constituents and helping them to make a choice about what they think is the right way forward not just for right now, to look at how social services assess care and Crawley, but for the country as a whole. ensure that frail people, perhaps those who have suffered a stroke, are not charged for what should be viewed as Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): How will health care rather than social care. That needs to be my right hon. Friend’s proposals help older people in looked at for the people who are currently in care, too. Northumberland, where the leading Liberal Democrat- controlled council has set a policy of closing all old Andy Burnham: I understand the hon. Gentleman’s people’s care centres and sacking all the workers in concern. We have been revising the guidance to local them? authorities. As pressure has grown on local social services down the years, they have focused more and more on Andy Burnham: I cannot say that then proposals will people with the highest needs, leaving lots of other help in the short term, but that is not what we want to people who desperately need help unable to access it. In see in the future. Under any of the options that we are revising the guidelines, we have put more investment—an presenting, there will be a basic national entitlement. extra £500 million—into the system. Any measures in One of the unfairnesses of the system is that some the interim would be only preparatory to the major councils withdraw money from social services in order debate we are initiating today. to spend it on other priorities. That can leave some of the most vulnerable people in society with unmet needs, Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): The which should not please any of us. Tories oppose the national health service, so it is not surprising that they oppose the national care service. Geraldine Smith (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Lab): The current lottery of life, under which one in three The mark of a civilised society is how well we look after who develop a severe condition lose everything and the the sick, old and vulnerable. This Government have rest keep their wealth intact, is unfair and should not be done much to look after the sick. People can now tolerated in a civilised society. I favour an approach of obtain operations when they need them rather than solidarity. Should we not go out and advocate the having to die waiting for them, so they have a chance to comprehensive approach, which also seems to be the grow old. lowest-cost option, and develop a groundswell of public I welcome the statement, which is long overdue. I opinion behind that option so that no future Government appreciate the reasons for that—the Government had a can ignore it? lot to deal with when the national health service was left in crisis—but we must now move as quickly as possible. Andy Burnham: The challenge here—my hon. Friend This is a priority for many of my constituents, and for puts it very well—is not just about what I put in and people all over the country. Can the Secretary of State what I get out. We all have to look at our own extended assure me that the consultation will be genuine and the families and recognise that across them there will be a strategy will be introduced quickly? range of care needs and that we have a mutual obligation to each other within our families and to others who, as Andy Burnham: I think that the Government have put she says, can face the calamitous cost of care if they the national health service back on its feet, and that develop the most serious needs. I note her support for people can take confidence from that and believe that the comprehensive option. If she would like to go out we can build a fair national care service. I take my hon. and bang the drum for the comprehensive option, she is Friend’s point about the need for speed. As she said, the absolutely entitled to do so and there is a very respectable statement is long overdue, and I accept that people have argument in favour of it. People will need illustrations waited a long time for our proposals. However, I can of how it could be made manageable. We have set out in assure her that we do not intend to back off or flinch. the Green Paper various options on how people might We want to ensure that there is a good debate, leading pay either for the comprehensive or the voluntary to a White Paper before the general election. It is about option—by deferring the state pension, paying through time that these issues were seen as a serious matter of retirement or paying after death. Those are the issues to choice and subject for debate, as I hope that they will be be debated. If my hon. Friend is offering to join the during any forthcoming general election campaign. debate, I wholeheartedly welcome it. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab): The royal Laura Moffatt (Crawley) (Lab): Does my right hon. commission recommended free long-term care for everyone, Friend agree that we in the House have a duty to get out paid for out of progressive taxation. I supported that there and consult people? Will he ensure that he and his view absolutely at the time, and I support it absolutely team are available to receive representations from our now. Moreover, opinion polling at the time showed constituents so that we know that the consultation will massive public support for it—up to 80 per cent.—and I be full and that we will be able to stand by it? am sure that the position is the same now. I tabled two early-day motions calling for free long-term care, which Andy Burnham: For any MP who would like it, we were signed by more than 100 Members, mostly Labour. would endeavour to set up a local forum in which these I can tell my right hon. Friend that I shall continue to issues could be properly debated with informed speakers campaign on that basis, and that I hope he will accept it so that we can have a quality debate at the local level, as an additional option. too. We want to give people the depth of information for which they are looking. These are difficult issues Andy Burnham: I welcome my hon. Friend’s contribution and it is not always easy to take them on. In my view, to the debate. Nothing rules out his campaigning for however, MPs can play a crucial role in informing their that particular option, but we have ruled it out because 173 Care and Support (Reform)14 JULY 2009 Care and Support (Reform) 174 we do not feel that it would be fair between the generations staff. In more recent days, the shadow Health Secretary to ask the working-age population today to continue to has been proposing the abandonment of national pay provide all the costs. We think that a partnership approach structures in the health service, so I think we know is fairer to all, given that many people of working age where they stand on these matters. Investing in and face considerable pressures in relation to housing and respecting the work force, and understanding how a all the costs of bringing up families. We feel that our motivated and well rewarded work force provide a proposals represent a fairer spread of the burden across quality service to the public, has got to be at the heart of the whole population, but of course my hon. Friend is any proposals for change. entitled to argue for a different approach in his constituency. Mr. Edward O’Hara (Knowsley, South) (Lab): I Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab): On Friday I spoke congratulate my right hon. Friend on introducing this to an elder constituent who was contemplating suicide long overdue Green Paper, and on his obvious commitment as her savings ran out. This morning I received a to the subject in his presentation and answering of thank-you card from her which read: “I now feel there is questions today. May I put it to him that one part of his light at the end of the tunnel. When I start getting statement is not negotiable—is not an option? He talks anxious again I shall remember your words ‘Eat your about improving the quality and status of care staff, house.’” The good thing about today’s statement is that and without that, we will have a framework, not a it gives older people a better option than eating their system that delivers a national care service. house, and gives others a better option than using it to pay for care for the elderly. Will the Secretary of State ensure that those anxious people are informed at every Andy Burnham: I thank my hon. Friend for his generous stage about how he conducts the debate, rather than its comments. Through him, I pay tribute to the good taking the form of an air war, as it is already doing in people of Knowsley, who have led the way in this area the Chamber? down the years. The Minister for Care Services was in Knowsley just last week looking at the fantastic work Andy Burnham: I strongly agree with my hon. Friend. done by health and social care staff in integrating People do become anxious about these issues. That is services. They genuinely—I know we say this a lot, but why I said at the outset that I hoped we could manage a in this case I mean it—offer a model for others to better debate than we normally manage, because such follow. I am happy to endorse what my hon. Friend the an important issue deserves it. Member for Knowsley, South (Mr. O’Hara) says: without Perhaps my hon. Friend can relay this to her constituent. investment in the staff, we do not have the basis of a Both the voluntary and the comprehensive option would national care service. We can learn from how we have provide people with a pathway to protect their assets, offered a better career progression for staff in the national savings and houses in retirement. That may indeed give health service, and transfer some of those principles to light at the end of the tunnel, not just for my hon. improving the social care work force. That is not to say Friend’s constituent but for many other people who that today we do not respect what they do; we do, but I genuinely feel anxious and seek peace of mind in their do not believe they get the recognition for what they later years. provide in all our communities and to all our families. Mr. David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): I return to the point made by the right hon. Member for Skipton and BILL PRESENTED Ripon (Mr. Curry). Staff are the key to delivering this GOVERNMENT OF CORNWALL BILL service. If we go back to what happened in the 1990s, when compulsory competitive tendering and privatised Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57) care homes were introduced and training and other Dan Rogerson, supported by Matthew Taylor, Mr. Colin budgets were cut, we will be unable either to recruit or Breed, Andrew George, Julia Goldsworthy, Willie Rennie, to retain quality staff. The one way to make sure that Andrew Mackinlay, Hywel Williams and Mr. Angus the system falls apart is to follow the programme that MacNeil, presented a Bill to establish and make provision the Conservative party followed 20 years ago. about the Cornish Assembly; to transfer functions and powers to the Assembly; and for connected purposes. Andy Burnham: It was quite astonishing that one of the Conservatives’ proposals as a way of helping with Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on social care was to end the minimum wage in care homes Friday 16 October, and to be printed (Bill 132). and the existing terms and conditions of social care 175 14 JULY 2009 Criminal Injuries Compensation 176 Scheme (Review) Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme before the bombs went off. I asked about their housing (Review) needs, and whether Andy’s career would be affected, despite all the efforts that he has made to regain it. I Motion for leave to introduce a Bill (Standing Order asked about the cost to Jan, who is about to launch her No. 23) own career as a teacher, and the effect on the couple’s pension position. It was quickly clear that the bill was 4.33 pm way beyond the £250,000 maximum payable under the Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): I beg to move, criminal injuries compensation scheme. That leave be given to bring in a Bill to establish a Commission The Bill therefore seeks the permission of the House to review the operation of the Criminal Injuries Compensation to establish a review, to report to the Justice Secretary Scheme and to make proposals for amendments to the scheme. by the end of the year, of how we can reform the I rise to introduce a Bill to review the criminal injuries criminal injuries compensation scheme to remove the compensation scheme. It is a very small Bill about a cap for those victims of terrorism who are subjects of very big issue: the impact of the 7/7 bombings on a this country, whether the terrorist outrage occurs here number of our constituents. Its co-sponsors have or abroad. One would hope that the review would also constituents whose bodies were cruelly torn asunder by suggest how we might pay for that small extension, in the bombs that were placed on 7/7. One of my own global terms, of the scheme. I hope that the review constituents, Andy Brown, whom I will discuss in a would take the line that my right hon. Friend the moment, wishes me to make the point that, despite the Member for Croydon, North (Malcolm Wicks) suggested incredible work of our security forces, we ought to work on community care, rather delphically—that these are on the assumption that perhaps one day, the bombers risks that all of us might wish to insure against. We will get through again and the victims of 7/7 will be should do so collectively, and share the costs, because joined by others of our constituents who will be equally that makes them very small, but they are very important badly mauled by the bombs of evil men who only wish for some of our constituents. us harm. All the hon. Members who are sponsoring the Bill It is clear that this House does not have the power to have constituents who were physically affected by the re-create the bodies of those constituents into the form bombers’ actions on 7/7. An early-day motion is being they took during the moments before the bombs went tabled today so that other hon. Members from both off; nor do we have the power to touch them and heal sides of the House who wish to support the Bill can their emotions. What we can do, of course, is to put request the Justice Secretary not to wait for Royal them back into the financial position they were in Assent but to set the review in hand now, so that it may before these evil men set off the bombs. In other words, report before Christmas, so that after that date we can we can fully compensate them for the financial losses have a criminal injuries compensation scheme that fully that they have incurred as a result of the 7/7 bombings. meets the extra financial costs suffered by those people Currently, our constituents qualify under the criminal who were physically so impaired by the evil actions of injuries compensation scheme, which has a cap of £250,000. the bombers on 7/7. To many of us, that probably sounds like a huge sum of Question put and agreed to. money, but when I met my constituent who was partly Ordered, blown asunder by the bombers, I asked him about the That Mr. Frank Field, Mr. Ian Taylor, Susan Kramer, financial costs of trying to repair his life. I did not Dr. Tony Wright, David Tredinnick, Mr. Andrew Dismore, immediately visit him in hospital, because I thought Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson, Sandra Gidley, Kate Hoey, that the last thing he would want to see was his MP, but Mark Fisher, Mr. Nicholas Soames and Lynne Featherstone I have since come to value his friendship and that of his present the Bill. wife, Jan. I pay tribute to the way in which he has valiantly surmounted the horrors that have been inflicted Mr. Frank Field accordingly presented the Bill. on him. I asked Andy and his wife what sum they Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on needed to put them back into the position they were in 16 October 2009 and to be printed (Bill 133). 177 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 178 Bill [Lords] Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill Amendment 21, in clause 28, page 22, line 27, at end [Lords] insert— ‘(10A) The Chief Inspector of the UK Border Agency may [Relevant Documents: The Ninth Report from the Joint delegate his responsibility to inspect facilities to Her Majesty’s Committee on Human Rights of Session 2008-09, Legislative Inspectors of Constabulary.’. Scrutiny: Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill, Amendment 3, in clause 30, page 24, line 9, at end HC 375, and the Seventeenth Report from the Committee, insert— Government replies to the Second, Fourth, Eighth, Ninth and Twelfth Reports of Session 2008-09, HC 592.] ‘(2B) Regulations made under subsection (1) or (2A) may make provision conferring functions on the Independent Police Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Complaints Commission in respect of the exercise of Committee. immigration and customs functions and the provision of services pursuant to arrangements relating to the discharge of those functions whether in the UK or overseas.’. New Clause 2 Government amendment 16.

SHORT-TERM HOLDING FACILITIES Mr. Woolas: May I report back to the House on the ‘In section 147 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 deliberations of the Committee? I believe that we had (c. 33) (removal centres and detained persons: interpretation), in comprehensive scrutiny, that we have improved the Bill the definition of “short-term holding facility”— even further and that, on the major matters, we have (a) after “used” insert “—(a)”, and achieved consensus. There are, however, some outstanding (b) at the end insert “, or issues. I shall deal first with the group of Government (b) for the detention of— and non-Government amendments that deal with part (i) detained persons for a period of not more than 1 of the Bill, which are included in the first group on the seven days or for such other period as may be selection list. The House will want to pay tribute later in prescribed, and the debate to Lord Kingsland, who has sadly been (ii) persons other than detained persons for any taken from us. His premature death this weekend was a period.”’.—(Mr. Woolas.) terrible blow to all those who loved him and to this Brought up, and read the First time. House and the other place. In the debate on citizenship and part 2 of the Bill, we will see even more of that. The 4.40 pm Home Office is profoundly shocked by his death. He The Minister for Borders and Immigration (Mr. Phil worked with officials in the Home Office for many years Woolas): I beg to move, That the clause be read a and he is a great loss. Second time. This is a large group of amendments, so let me deal immediately with Government new clause 2, which goes Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): With this it with Government amendments 15 and 16, and describe will be convenient to discuss the following: Amendment their purpose and effect. The Liberal Democrat (a) thereto, after ‘detention’, insert spokespersons, the hon. Members for Carshalton and ‘by an immigration officer, general customs official or Customs Wallington (Tom Brake) and for Rochdale (Paul Rowen), revenue official’. are in their place and they helped the Committee, as did the hon. Gentlemen who speak for the official Opposition, Amendment (b), thereto, leave out ‘for any period’ the hon. Members for Ashford (Damian Green) and for and insert Reigate (Mr. Blunt). They were both on the Committee ‘for not longer than six hours’. and will wish to speak about their proposals. Amendment 9, in clause 3, page 3, line 35, leave out paragraphs (a) and (b) and insert— Mr. Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab): Since we last ‘(a) any officer transferred to the UK Border Agency from discussed the Bill on the Floor of the House of Commons, HM Revenue and Customs, or the Government have published a document that is very (b) any UK Border Agency employee recruited for that important—“Building Britain’s Future”. In the section specific purpose,’. on immigration, they pledge that we will move to a Amendment 18, page 3, line 36, at end insert— points system for citizenship so that we break the link ‘(ba) a police officer’. between people coming here to work and their automatically becoming citizens. My hon. Friend the Member for Amendment 10, page 3, line 43, leave out subsection (3). Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) and I chair the all-party Amendment 11, in clause 11, page 8, line 4, leave out group on balanced migration and we have been pushing paragraph (a) and insert— for that. Does the Bill bring us up to date with the latest ‘(a) any officer transferred to the UK Border Agency from Government development? HM Revenue and Customs, or’. Amendment 12, in clause 12, page 9, line 10, leave out Mr. Woolas: The Bill provides a beautiful tapestry on ‘or for a specified period,’. which the next proposals will be embroidered. There is a Amendment 13, page 9, line 11, leave out from beautiful and symmetric logic to what we are doing, as I ‘withdrawn’ to end of line 12. shall explain. I am sure that the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) and my right hon. Friend the Government amendment 15. Member for Birkenhead (Mr. Field) will welcome the Amendment 20, in clause 25, page 19, line 29, at end proposals. My right hon. Friend the Member for Redditch insert— (Jacqui Smith), the then Home Secretary, made it clear ‘(1A) The designation of short-term holding facilities must be on Second Reading that she thought that should the renewed every six months.’. Bill be accepted by the House—it has cross-party 179 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 180 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Woolas] Mr. Nicholas Soames (Mid-Sussex) (Con): I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, and I am particularly consensus—it would provide a platform from which to pleased by his reference to the exotic and beautiful move forward to the next stage of reform, which would tapestry that he is weaving for the benefit of our country. be a points-based system for citizenship building on the However, does he believe that the facilities that he is points-based system for temporary migrancy for economic outlining will be man enough to cope with an annual reasons. Indeed, the document “Building Britain’s Future” inflow of about 237,000 people? to which my right hon. Friend referred makes it clear that our intention is to bring forward ideas for consultation Mr. Woolas: Our policy is one of managed migration, on that point, precisely to address the proposed lack of and our intention is that we will be able to manage the a link between temporary and permanent migrancy, but numbers. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the figure of it is important that we get this Bill first. Its citizenship 237,000, and I think that that is the gross inflow— element, although not the border functions set out in part 1, is a platform on which those proposals can Mr. Soames: It is the net inflow. be built. Mr. Woolas: The net inflow, I am sorry, but that is 4.45 pm according to Office for National Statistics definitions Mr. Field: I thank the Minister for that. Given his with which the hon. Gentleman knows that I have some tapestry analogy, will he take a message back to the issues. In the main, our short-term holding facilities are Home Office? If what he wants is not delivered, will he used for outflows—if I can use that word in this context. remind them that there are many hon. Members with We think that our estate has been significantly improved, long needles? We do not want to aim them at him, but at and that it is still improving, in both capacity and other forces. fitness for purpose. To continue the analogy with a tapestry, which I Mr. Woolas: My immediate thought is that we should think that one embroiders rather than weaves, although not take the analogy any further. The Government are I shall not dance on the head of a pin about that— committed to that strategy, and we are working on the [Interruption.] I am sorry, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that proposals. They do not lie within the scope of this Bill, will be the last reference to a tapestry from this Dispatch but my right hon. Friend is right to point out that they Box. have a strong relationship. The hon. Gentleman’s serious question is whether we I turn now to new clause 2, which deals with short-term anticipate the numbers of migrants remaining roughly holding facilities. Government amendment 15 is as they are or as increasing, and whether the policy is consequential to it and removes clause 25 to make way based on that. In this regard, we are talking mainly for the new clause. Government amendment 16 makes about the facilities that we have to enforce removals the changes to the schedule that will be necessary if the from the country. There are some facilities, of course, House accepts the earlier amendments. for holding people at the borders, especially at the The purpose of the existing clause 25 that was inserted airports. We have increased capacity, but that does not in the other place was to provide greater flexibility in imply that we are expecting the inflow to increase. the use of short-term holding facilities, and thus to Indeed, I think that the points-based system and the maximise the use of these finite detention resources. In proposals in the Bill will reduce the inflow, and of short, it was a management tool to secure greater flexibility course the hon. Gentleman was referring to a net figure. and therefore the greater efficiency for the taxpayer that In each case, there will be no change to the existing is always at the front of our concerns. time limits or, where relevant, the application of the Short-term holding facilities fall into two categories—the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984. These technical residential facilities at Dover, Manchester, Harwich and Government amendments have been tabled at a late Colnbrook near Heathrow, and the holding rooms at stage, and that is regrettable, but it has been pointed most ports and certain UK Border Agency offices. All out—and we are grateful for that—that clause 25 could are subject to a statutory maximum stay of seven days. have had the unintended effect of making any place at At present, short-term holding facilities may be used to which immigration detainees might be held for a period hold only individuals who have been detained for of seven days or less—including removal centres, prisons immigration purposes under UKBA’s administrative or police stations—a short-term holding facility. So powers of detention, and those who have been detained leaving clause 25 in the Bill would have meant that such under section 2 of the UK Borders Act 2007, pending places were subject to the short-term holding facility the arrival of a police officer. rules rather than their appropriate statutory frameworks By modifying the definition of short-term holding such as detention centre rules, prison rules and PACE. facilities, we are removing that constraint so as to allow Indeed, removal centres could lose their status entirely other categories of persons to be held in those facilities. and become short-term holding facilities instead. As a consequence, short-term holding facilities will be Therefore, I ask the House to remove clause 25 by able to hold a range of individuals, subject to the accepting amendment 15 and to replace it with new prescribed periods of detention and protections relevant clause 2. We intend to replace clause 25 with a clause in each case. That could include individuals arrested in that not only achieves the objective of flexibility but connection with immigration or customs offences, does so without the adverse effects for other places of individuals detained under section 2 of the UK Borders detention. The revised definition of a short-term holding Act 2007 as liable to arrest and pending the arrival of a facility in new clause 2 would allow such facilities to be police officer or, as now, individuals detained in detention used either solely for immigration detainees or for a mix under the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999. of detainees and persons detained under other powers. 181 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 182 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP): In with the ONS. The ONS is not the Government’s ONS, increasing the period of this type of detention that but the taxpayers’ ONS; it is independent. It was set up some people will face, is the Minister satisfied with the by statute as an independent body by the House, with quality of resources at the short-term holding facilities? across-the-Floor agreement, if I recall correctly. My There have been reports of inadequate facilities and problem is with the interpretation of those figures by lack of access to legal advice. What is he doing to some—not, I hasten to add, by Migrationwatch UK. improve the quality of those resources? My simple point is that extrapolation is not the same as projection. The reported figures are extrapolations based Mr. Woolas: I have of course looked into that point on trends, but are reported as projections, and of course and. I have read the reports, as the hon. Gentleman has. the two are extremely different. The extrapolation makes The reports from the independent monitoring boards a number of assumptions on net migration that I just are extremely helpful. I was able to address their conference do not think can be backed up by actual fact. in Bournemouth recently, not least to thank them for My second point, which is extremely important—I the work that they do. I genuinely believe that transparency think that the hon. Member for Ashford agreed with and shining a light on the issues improves the situation, the point that I made to the Fabian Society when we not least for the taxpayer. I am sure that he accepts the debated the subject with it—is that there is a crucial need to put the reports into context. Overwhelmingly, difference between measuring the number of people they are supportive, indeed congratulatory, of the work who are not UK-born and measuring the number of that the agency does, but that does not diminish the migrants. There is a crucial difference between temporary criticisms. We provide detailed responses to the reports, migration and permanent settlement, or citizenship. On mainly agreeing with the recommendations and putting that latter point, to which my right hon. Friend the forward plans for implementation but where we disagree Member for Birkenhead, who is now not in the Chamber, justifying that in terms of policy. I take a special interest has referred, the importance of the difference between in that. I think that the hon. Gentleman has asked temporary and permanent migration needs to be parliamentary questions about the centres. Am I satisfied? highlighted, yet the reporting of the figure does not do Broadly, yes. Could matters improve? Some holding that. Part of the purpose of policy is better to enable us centres are perhaps a bit old, but we have a capital to do exactly that, so that we can have a more transparent programme that is secure so yes, I am satisfied. debate about immigration in this country, something of The new clause and amendments that I have tabled which the hon. Member for Mid-Sussex is an important would mean that, in all cases, there was no change to advocate. Whatever our policy disagreements, we both the relevant powers of arrest and detention; I just agree that we need to get the subject talked about. reassure the House that there is no sleight of hand The immigration figures and their interpretation are there. Also, there is no change to the statutory protections extremely important, and it is interesting to note the that apply in each case. I should just put on record that Library’s contribution to the debate. Of course, the the detention of individuals arrested in connection with ONS has strict criteria on the management of statistics criminal offences would still be subject to the provisions and their public release, and it is difficult to answer the of PACE and the associated codes of practice, including hon. Gentleman’s parliamentary questions without those on time limits in custody, even for those held in a including caveats on the statistical code from the authority short-term holding facility. Mr. Deputy Speaker, it may in a way that is helpful, but does not leave me open to be of benefit to you and the House if I finish speaking misinterpretation, if he follows my logic. now, so that the official spokesmen of the other parties— and other hon. Members, too—can, if they catch your 5pm eye, put their points on their amendments. Mr. Soames: I am grateful to the Minister. I understand Mr. Soames rose— that these are extremely difficult matters, but as he says, if policy is to be correctly informed and drafted, it must Mr. Woolas: Before I do that, I give way to the hon. be based on sound numbers. We believe that the figures Gentleman. supplied to him by Balanced Migration are entirely accurate. Following his line of argument, does he agree Mr. Soames: I am very grateful. The Minister is that immigration will add nearly 7 million people to always extremely courteous in giving way. May I ask England’s population by 2031? him a question on a point that he raised before he was intervened on by the hon. Member for Perth and North Mr. Woolas: Straightforwardly, no. That is my point. Perthshire (Pete Wishart)? I took the Minister to say That figure is an extrapolation, but I agree that it is that he had some problem with the figures published by important that we have policy measures to restrict the the Government’s own statistics officers, the ONS. If numbers, and that we must be able to show the country the House is to get a true picture of the extent of the that those are in place, both for reasons of population problem that the Bill is trying to deal with, it is important and for reasons of public reassurance. I agree with hon. that it should know what his objections are to the ONS Gentleman on that point. My disagreement with him is figures. On what points does he disagree with them, and that those figures, which are well known, are based, as I which parts of the Bill are those disagreements likely say, on an extrapolation, which includes an extrapolation to affect? of emigration as well as immigration. I do not quarrel with Migrationwatch’s figures at all. Mr. Woolas: I am extremely grateful to the hon. They are accurate, as far as I have been able to determine. Gentleman for asking me that question, because it Point 1 on the 10-point plan, on the use of the England allows me to state in the House my actual views, rather figures rather than the United Kingdom figures, may than those that have been reported. My problem is not allow them to be interpreted in a slightly unfair way 183 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 184 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Woolas] of the existing structures. A significant proportion of the organised crime in this country is international and, from the point of view of honest debate, but I take the therefore, ought to be stopped at our borders. That point that Migrationwatch is making—that the south-east reveals one of the great divides between us: we propose of England is where significant pressure comes about. I a national border police force; and the Minister and his shall stop there in order to allow other Members to colleagues always oppose it—even though, in some speak. speeches, they appear to accept the logic of it.

Damian Green (Ashford) (Con): The Minister has Mr. Woolas rose— entertained us by comparing the Bill to a beautiful tapestry. I see it as a more modern artistic artefact, with Damian Green: Before the Minister responds, I accept no apparent meaning on the surface and a random that he has said that the proposal has not been ruled out distribution of effects, from which only initiates such as for some point in the future, but we think that we need the Minister can derive any pattern. I suspect the artistic to proceed with that option as a matter of some urgency. analogy will not last much beyond the opening speeches in this evening’s debates. Amendment 18 would allow for a very small step towards that important, wider aim of a border police I thank the Minister for his explanation of new force, by giving the Secretary of State the power to clause 2 and the consequential amendments. I take the designate a police officer as somebody who can exercise point that the existing amendments and new clauses general customs functions. That is the nub of the were technically defective and it is no doubt better to amendment’s desirability, because we want the different proceed along the route that he has been explaining for expertise that is available to police, immigration and the past few minutes. I shall speak to amendments 18, customs officers to be brought together at our borders 20 and 21 in particular, which deal with various aspects so that it can all be effective. of the border functions. Amendment 18 adds “a police officer” to the list of It is easy to illustrate the importance of greater people to whom the Secretary of State can devolve effectiveness at our borders. We know that our porous power. To set this in context, it is not a matter of borders are a significant contributor to a number of controversy across the Floor that those working on our crimes—not just illegal immigration, but drug trafficking, borders could work more efficiently if they could share people trafficking and, at the margin, terrorism. We powers. We all agree about that. One of the disagreements know that 60 per cent. of the illegal immigrants who are between us is that the Opposition believe that those in the UK arrived through illegal means. Although the powers should extend to police powers if we are to be practice of overstaying by people who have arrived here effective in preventing illegal immigration. legally is a significant problem, it is less significant than the problem of those who get through our border I take the point that the Minister made in response to controls illegally. the very good point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) that the net We can discuss people trafficking in more detail when numbers coming in will not all be illegal immigrants. we consider a later clause, but, by most calculations, its The holding facilities that we are discussing are, presumably, economic and social costs to the UK amount to more to hold people who are suspected of being illegal than £1 billion a year. We know also that weapons are immigrants. We do not need holding facilities to cope increasingly smuggled through our badly protected borders, with the full number. As was agreed, the gross number and the regrettable increase in gun crime has been will be about 600,000 a year, based on figures over the fuelled by a supply of weapons that have entered the past few years. We believe that that is too high and UK, particularly from eastern Europe. The Metropolitan needs to be brought down. police commander, Cressida Dick, has said that three quarters of firearms used by UK criminals are converted With reference to the Government’s proposals on the replica and imitation guns, and that most of them are subject throughout the stages of the Bill, we have been smuggled in from eastern Europe. concerned that they are rushing to set in motion the cross-powers, which we agree are desirable, without The Minister, in a fit of honesty that he may come to taking the necessary steps that would provide the regret—[Interruption.] It is a common fit that comes appropriate safeguards, particularly with regard to training over him. He has said that of those who will be given those powers, and with “we have, compared to other rich countries, been liberal in our regard to checks and accountability. border controls”. We are worried about the piecemeal approach to I hope that he recognises that quotation. He will be organised crime, generally. Obviously, a lot of the crime pleased to hear that I agree: that is one of the mistakes associated with our borders is international organised that the Government have made. crime, and such an approach has clearly not worked so I hope that the House agrees with me on amendment 18 far. Yesterday, the new serious organised crime strategy and supports the step it takes towards a much more was published and it revealed that very little has improved collective effort at the borders. One reason for tabling over the past five years, precisely because of the lack of the amendment is our knowledge that the specialisation cross-cutting powers which the Minister seeks to enforce of police services is effective in fighting new types of through this legislation. The problem is that different crime. Such specialisation is the way in which policing is bodies have been working to different agendas, and going, and that is why we welcome the proposals from agencies have not made full use of their available powers. Lord Stevens, who, after conducting a review of our Yesterday, the Government themselves identified the overall border security arrangements, concluded that need for a new strategic centre to fight serious organised only a unified force can protect our borders. As I have crime, which is, I am afraid, an indictment of the power said, a future Conservative Government would create a 185 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 186 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] national border police force to replace the current appoint the people who are able to exercise those powers inadequate system, but, in the meantime, through the in the hundreds, perhaps thousands, of small ports, and amendment we seek to take a step towards that by some of the bigger ones. extending the general customs function to police officers. Let me widen the scope of my remarks a little and Andrew Mackinlay: Southampton. return to the point about appropriate training, because Damian Green: Yes, as the hon. Gentleman says, the question whether these important powers are exercised there are some reasonably sized ports that lack that by appropriately trained people lies at the heart of the expertise. It is a glaring problem, not a hidden one. We debate about changes within the UK Border Agency all know that it is there. One point that I have been and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. As I said, making throughout the debates on the Bill is that in there is no great divide across the House about that some ways, it is a wasted opportunity. We have an because the Minister and I agree that existing functions immigration Bill every year, yet for all the legislation are subject to too great a diversity, sometimes an that this Government have passed on immigration, incoherence, on account of people exercising different there are certain glaring problems that do not seem to powers at the border, and we want more cross-cutting get addressed. We probably need less legislation and powers. However, before we achieve that, and while the more enforcement of the existing legislation. powers are being shared and spread around—as they would be under the amendment and, to some extent, Mr. Soames: Does my hon. Friend agree that as far as under amendments in this group tabled by other hon. the public whom we are sent here to represent are Members—it is legitimate to ask about the new functions concerned, the point made by the hon. Member for that they represent and who would exercise them. Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay) is absolutely key? They Customs officials’ powers, which are extremely broad, need assurance that the policies put forward for securing are already being shared out to immigration officers, our borders are credible. They cannot be credible if the and the Minister will be aware that customs officers can arrangements are not clearly satisfactory. already undertake a wide range of extremely intrusive activities. The threshold of reasonable suspicion needed 5.15 pm for an officer to take enforcement activity is, rightly, very low, and that activity can relate to a combination Damian Green: My hon. Friend is right, and I can of things, including the origin of a person’s journey, only repeat the point that I have just made. We are not their clothing, and the quantity of luggage that they are short of immigration legislation. In the three and a half carrying. That is why I emphasise the need for only years that I have been doing this job, this is the third properly trained people to be allowed to exercise those immigration Bill that I have had to investigate and powers, which in some cases, are greater than the average probe, yet public confidence in our immigration system powers that a police officer can exercise. The amendment has probably never been lower. There are a number of would allow the Secretary of State to designate police reasons for that, and if I went into them at great length I officers to do that such work. Of course, we accept that suspect that you would pull me up, Mr. Deputy Speaker. that in itself could entail extra training for the police It is quite clear that the two big reasons are the sheer officers involved, but the ability to exercise those cross- scale of immigration over the past 10 to 12 years, which cutting powers would make it worth investing in that my hon. Friend and I agree should be lower, and the training. If we do not progress down the route towards fact that it is apparent that our systems for stopping a national border police force, we are in danger of illegal immigration and wider cross-border crime are giving increasingly extensive powers to people who may simply not working well enough. not be properly trained to exercise them, so that in an Mr. Woolas: I am following the debate carefully. I effort to make our borders safer, which nobody could respect the hon. Gentleman’s argument on the relationship object to, we could end up inconveniencing the travelling between police powers and the UK Border Agency, but public. I am sure that we all agree that that would be I cannot accept the point that he has just made, and undesirable. certainly his own county police force would not accept Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): At the risk of it. The success that it has had, working with our officials, offending the vast number of Labour colleagues sitting in reducing illegal immigration, and the success that we behind the Minister, I have to say that I agree with the have had at the juxtaposed border in France, has brought hon. Gentleman. I do not think that the Minister has the numbers down dramatically. His own police force been fully briefed. Several police forces at ports, including would say that. Tilbury, Belfast, Tees and Hartlepool, and Felixstowe, exist under old legislation, and they do a tremendous Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. May I say gently to the job in fulfilling the functions that he describes. It is by House that this is in danger of widening out into a sheer luck that those particular ports have uniformed Second Reading debate? Perhaps we can come back to police with those powers. If it is good for them to be the matter in hand. able to exercise those powers, why should not all the other hundreds of wharves and ports around our country Damian Green: I will rapidly move on to another have comparable people who can intervene on immigration, amendment, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but not before saying customs and law enforcement issues? that the Minister needs to address the point made by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay). Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman, who speaks There are success stories in some ports, but we know from his own constituency experience, is exactly right. that there are many failures in other ports around the There are inevitably places where this expertise has, country. There is no point in putting one brick back in rightly, been built up. One of the problems is that there the wall if the wall has holes in it all around the is no mechanism to extend that expertise or even to coastline. 187 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 188 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Mr. Woolas: I take on board what you said, of course, being held there day after day—it is important, in view Mr. Deputy Speaker, but does not the case of Kent of the extra powers that the Minister wishes to take in rather destroy the hon. Gentleman’s argument? That is new clause 2, to know that the conditions are secure. an example of success, and Kent police has said that it That is the first thing about which we should care, but does not support his proposals, precisely because it those conditions should also be satisfactory and humane. needs to be able to bring the whole weight of the force I want to ask the Minister some questions, which I behind the UK Border Agency. That is not the case in hope that he can answer when he winds up the discussion all ports, but it is a very good example. on the first group of amendments. What immigration and customs offences would typically cover people who Damian Green: I have obviously discussed the issue will be held in the short-term facilities? What regulations with Kent police. Like all effective police forces, it apply to the officers who are responsible for holding would like to carry on doing what it is doing. However, those suspects? Is there any necessity to charge or there are two points to make about that. First, the transfer a suspect in a specific time period? Are suspects national border force that I propose would be able to normally transferred to immigration detention centres spread precisely that successful expertise offered by or police stations after they have been in the short-term police forces such as Kent. Secondly, although as a facilities? What legal advice or representation is offered Kent MP I am very pleased that Kent police is effective, to suspects in the short-term holding facilities? It would that is not much good if people can observe that the be helpful if the Minister could paint a picture of how system is ineffective next door in Essex. If we all know the short-term facilities are currently used and how he that, we can guarantee that the serious international envisages their being used in future. criminals whom we want to stop know that as well. We have already had an exchange about the independent Andrew Mackinlay: I bear in mind what you said, monitoring board, so the Minister knows that the Mr. Deputy Speaker, but the fact is that with human monitoring board for Heathrow airport considers the nature being what it is, territorial police forces are current facilities to be inadequate. Clearly, Heathrow is jealous of their geographical jurisdiction and do not the busiest facility, so I am sure that the Minister will be want another police force in it. In the vast majority of concerned about that. Indeed, Lord West of Spithead county police forces up and down the country, if somebody said in another place that he had visited the short-term draws to a police officer’s attention the fact that there is facilities in Gatwick and that he was “not over-impressed.” an illegal immigrant or somebody who appears to be an There are clearly deep problems with the short-term illegal immigrant, what happens? The police give them a holding facilities in all our airports. [Interruption.] Yes, card and tell them to go to Lunar house, Croydon, and that is two, but they are Heathrow and Gatwick. If the they just disappear into the ether. facilities there are unsatisfactory, it is likely that others Local commanders do not feel able to draw the are also unsatisfactory. However, given Lord West’s authorities’ attention to somebody who looks like an description of the new facilities at Heathrow, perhaps illegal immigrant, nor are they charged with doing that. they have improved. He said about Cayley house that That is the reality both sides of the River Thames “we provide toiletry packs, clothes, blankets, newspapers, magazines, outside the Port of Tilbury police, the Port of Dover hot and cold food, eye masks in places where the lighting is police, the Belfast Harbour police and the Tees and difficult, family areas, telephones without SIM cards which people Hartlepool Harbour police. At all the other big ports, it can use, DVD players, DVDs and baby changing facilities.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 6 July 2009; Vol. 712, c.443.] is open season. I have paid money to stay in worse places. I hope that Damian Green: I cannot resolve the argument between Lord West is right but I also hope that the facilities are the Minister and his hon. Friend, certainly not while secure because they need to be. keeping in order. Mr. Soames: As my hon. Friend may or may not Andrew Mackinlay: I represent 14 miles of river front know, Lord West is a goat; a member of the “Government and I know what I am talking about. of all the talents”! Does my hon. Friend realise that the staff who run the homes do the best they possibly can Damian Green: We can all agree with that, and I think under difficult conditions? As he rightly says, it will not that the hon. Gentleman has the better argument. Those be much fun staying there, but they do their best. of us with such responsibilities know about these things. If the Minister is not careful, I shall start talking about Damian Green: I am sure that is right, and I know my alternatives to detention, about which I know something hon. Friend has great expertise in respect of Gatwick. because one of his failed experiments took place in my Let me explain what I am seeking to achieve through constituency. I will not be attracted down that route this probing amendment: given that these facilities will because, you will be pleased to hear, Mr. Deputy Speaker, become ever more important and widespread in the I want to talk about our other amendments. future, it is essential to strike the right balance so that I start with amendment 20, which states: they are secure but also humane. My final point on this “The designation of short-term holding facilities must be matter is to do with interpretation facilities, as they will renewed every six months.” become increasingly important. Is the Minister satisfied The purpose of the amendment is to probe the condition that there is sufficient provision of such facilities at the of the facilities—the point that the hon. Member for various short term-holding facilities? Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) made. Given The third of our amendments addresses inspection, that we now have more than 30 short-term holding which the Minister and I had exchanges about in facilities near ports and airports throughout the country Committee. One of my worries about the Bill—indeed, and people can be held in them for up to seven days—I about this whole part of the policy—is that there will be daresay that it does not feel very short term if one is inspection creep, in that more and more inspecting 189 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 190 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] regimes are being applied to individual areas. This opportunities for detection and intelligence. Passengers, amendment would allow one inspectorate to delegate vehicles and traffic are potentially subject to three checks: its powers and duties to another inspectorate, if that is by immigration, by customs and then by the police. necessary. I can absolutely guarantee that now that we Over time, specialist knowledge and training have been have three different inspection regimes that are all able built up in each area, as has, therefore, a professionalism. to operate, as time goes by those who are doing this Under clause 3, the Secretary of State can designate difficult job in trying circumstances will spend increasing “an immigration officer, or…any other official in that Secretary amounts of their time ticking boxes to try to hit the of State’s department, as a general customs official.” targets of the next inspection regime. They will also certainly find that each of the three inspectorates that That is an extremely sweeping power—“any other official” have some power to inspect the facilities will have a in the Department could, I suppose, apply to the different set of priorities and will tell those facilities to departmental cat. The breadth of the designation powers do different things. We have seen this happen across the being given to the Secretary of State is extraordinary. public sector over the past few years, and it would be That has caused unease among officers in the service, very unfortunate if we introduced that particular failure whose first concern is that the extent of the power could into the inspection regime for any kind of detention lead to privatisation. I am grateful for the time that the facilities on the immigration estate, and perhaps especially Minister and management have taken to meet trade for the short-term holding facilities. union reps and to reassure them that the thrust of the legislation is not about privatisation, but about trying The point was made in Committee that we know that to streamline the service, as some have said, and increase the new inspectorate—UKBA’s own inspectorate—will its effectiveness. The staff have gone along with that by be the least powerful. It will be less powerful than Her looking at how effectiveness can be achieved. Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary and the prisons inspectorate simply because they have greater expertise There are still concerns, however, that the professionalism and history and know the ways of doing things. It will of the service will be undermined by the breakdown of take some years for the UKBA inspectorate to build specialisms. Nevertheless, the staff have gone into itself up. No criticism of the UKBA inspectorate is negotiations through PCS to look at where the specialisms implied in that; it is just the way of the world. I have can be maintained or drawn upon in a unified service. attempted at various stages of the Bill’s passage to However, it is accepted that there will be change and reduce the volume of inspection, because I think a that not all will be catered for. I have seen the single good inspection is what these facilities and those correspondence between the union and management, who work in them should have, and that multiple, and the union accepts that the business model being constant inspections will result in the facilities providing pursued by management will mean that there may not a lower quality service. be a sufficient number of posts at every port to satisfy everyone’s wishes. The union recognises that, as a result, I will not deal with all the amendments tabled by the management may wish to redeploy staff to new duties. Liberal Democrats and others, but I hope that the That displays a flexibility in those discussions from the Minister and the House will take on board the arguments union in order to ensure that the implementation of the I have put for the three amendments we have tabled. legislation is delivered as Ministers want it to be delivered. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): Before However, there are genuine concerns about what speaking to my amendments, I shall address the issue of could happen as a result of the breadth of the Secretary short-term holding facilities. There are at present concerns of State’s powers. That is why my amendments seek to about short-term holding. Although there has been limit those powers and ensure that the Secretary of some jocular reference to the conditions in these facilities, State can designate from either existing staff—that is, the people detained in them are not criminals; they are customs officers—or staff who are specifically recruited being detained while further investigations take place. for that purpose. My amendments would also remove My concern about the new clause is that it would extend the flexibility that the Secretary of State is seeking to the short-term holding facility definition to police cells give himself to designate customs officers for a limited and prison cells. That is a worrying move, and I am also period, so that we can inspire existing staff, see them as concerned about people being left in such short-term professionals, build on their expertise and recognise holding for considerable lengths of time. That is why I that they need both the security of employment and the support the amendments which try to limit the hours respect for their profession that they are pursuing in the for which people are detained. longer term. The amendments in my name are amendments 9 and The implementation of the legislation could fall at 10 to 13. When we debate legislation such as this, it is the earliest point, however, because of the breakdown important that we look at the practicalities of the of the discussions that have taken place so far. implementation of its provisions. I have Heathrow in Unfortunately, there has been a rush by elements in my constituency and a large number of my constituents management to implement the single border approach, are immigration or customs officers. Most of them are with the recent publication of integrated guidance, which organised through the Public and Commercial Services has triggered some managers to change shift patterns, Union, and I co-ordinate the PCS group. We therefore job content and ways of working among staff, despite get considerable feedback about the anxieties of existing the offer by the union to become involved in workplace staff about the changes proposed in the Bill. planning and to look at how people can be redeployed. At the moment, if the legislation goes through and 5.30 pm there is no proper consultation between management As hon. Members are aware, at present there are and the unions, which is what should happen, there will three lines of inspection—three sequential control points— be industrial action on its first implementation in August. for people coming into this country and therefore three At the moment, the union is balloting on that industrial 191 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 192 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] action. I believe that the Government have a responsibility preparation would be required than a simple reference to intervene to ensure that the management respect the to a police officer in order for the Bill to reflect the wishes of the House. entirety of the requirements of a fully fledged UK The current union offer is that there should be a border force. moratorium, not on change but on the compulsion on The hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) was staff to move from their existing positions to new ones, quite right to stress the importance of training—a and that that moratorium on compulsion linked to matter we discussed at some length in Committee, and change should last until May next year. However, I we sought assurances that the funding and appropriate understand that the management want it to last only level of training would be available for staff. until December, so we are talking about a difference of Amendment 20 would entail a review every six months six months. If the management remain intransigent, of the short-term holding facilities, and I view it as a there will be industrial action in August next year—August valuable probing amendment. Given the difficulties is one of the busiest periods for customs and immigration highlighted in some short-term holding facilities—the officers—and the morale of the staff and their confidence hon. Member for Ashford spoke about Heathrow and in the new system that the Government are introducing Gatwick for starters—the issue clearly needs to be kept will have been undermined. under review. The hon. Gentleman outlined what was The Minister has intervened recently to reassure the theoretically available in the short-term holding facilities. staff that the sweeping power that he has given himself Without wanting to stray into a debate about mental will not be used for privatisation or to bulldoze health services, I wish that the level of provision available through measures that undermine the professionalism there were matched by that in many mental health and morale of the existing staff. As I have said, there hospitals, but having had an engaged dialogue with my is a meeting on Friday between the unions and the local trust to secure just one additional newspaper in a management. If no agreement is reached, the ballot similar facility, I know that it is not. However, I would that is now taking place could well produce a majority like to see those facilities rolled out in other places in favour of industrial action, and the service will face a as well. crisis at its very birth. Will the Minister give me an assurance that if no agreement is reached on Friday, he Whether police inspectors should be allowed to take will meet Members of the House to see what can be on the role of the chief inspector of the UK Border done to resolve the industrial relations problems that Agency was, coincidentally, discussed in the Home Affairs the new service, as set out in the Bill, seems to be Select Committee earlier today. One aspect of the chief encountering at its birth? inspector’s role that was underlined there was the importance of ensuring that he is perceived as being A residue of good will among the immigration and completely independent of government. It was suggested customs officers within the Minister’s Department and that he should not have an e-mail address with the term elsewhere has been drawn on, and it now needs to be “.gov”in it and that he should have the word “independent” bolstered, rather than undermined at this early stage. I on his letterhead. There must be certainty about the do not believe that it is too much to ask of the service degree of independence, which is an issue that can be that there should at least be a moratorium on compulsory resolved, and our proposals for a UK border force need redeployment between now and May, so that negotiations to ensure that independence is maintained. Police inspectors can take place to protect the staff who are in situ at the must be seen to be completely independent of government moment. They are professionals who have served this in the same way as we expect the chief inspector of country relatively well over the years. In fact, one of the UKBA to be completely independent of government. arguments that we have had in the House has centred not on their professionalism but on the fact that there Our amendment (a) to new clause 2 welcomes the have been too few of them. We need to build on the fact that Government lawyers spotted the possibility of strengths of the existing service, and that is what we are certain difficulties arising in designating prisons and seeking to do. police cells as short-term holding facilities. One occasionally The amendments enable me to highlight the problems wonders how legislation arrives in such a form. I do not that exist in the service at the moment, and I hope the know whether the responsible official is here today and Minister will give me the undertaking that if negotiations sitting in the Box, but it is strange the way these things fail on Friday, we can have a quick ministerial meeting happen, and it is fortunate that in this case it was [Interruption.] with Members and, hopefully, resolve the outstanding spotted before the legislation went through. issues. That would enable the service to go forward on a The Minister says from a sedentary position that we are basis of professionalism and with increased morale and only human, and Ministers are also only human, so I stability from the beginning. welcome this change. Amendment (a) is designed to provide even greater Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD): I shall clarity about who the new clause applies to. It would speak briefly to this group of amendments on border provide for a detention functions. Before I come to our amendments, I should “by an immigration officer, general customs official or Customs like to comment on those tabled by the Conservatives, revenue official”. starting with amendment 18, which would allow a police officer to be designated in relation to general customs The Minister may say that that is already the case and functions. There is agreement between the Conservatives that we are being over-cautious, in which case I will take and the Liberal Democrats on the need for a UK border that on board, but I think it provides clarity about who force, although there is some difference of opinion is going to be responsible for the control of the detention. about precisely what responsibilities and roles such a Amendment (b) is designed to ensure what I believe force would have. I doubt that the Conservatives intend the Minister was seeking to achieve—that there should to press amendment 18 to a vote, as a little more be a maximum detention period of six hours in these 193 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 194 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] short-term holding facilities. As other Members have The Minister referred to the short-term detention said, these are not necessarily facilities that people facilities, and the number of people with whom it would would want to be detained in for much longer. What the be necessary to deal. Nobody knows how many illegal Minister said in Committee suggested his support for immigrants there are in this country—they are additional our position. The amendment would ensure that the to the numbers I quoted. The latest estimate by the short-term holding facilities could hold people under London School of Economics is that there are about HMRC and court powers for a maximum of just six 618,000, within a range of between 417,000 and 863,000. hours. The Government propose to deal with that increase by introducing a points-based system for work permits, 5.45 pm which they inadvisably describe as being tough and The aim of amendment 3, which we discussed at Australian-style. In fact, it is neither. The Australians some length in Committee, is to ensure that the Independent start with a limit and issue permits within it. There are Police Complaints Commission’s remit extends beyond no limits to the Government’s scheme; indeed, according our borders. I acknowledge some of the concerns raised to their own calculation, it will reduce immigration by by the Minister about the possible impact of exporting only 6 per cent. the United Kingdom’s laws on the jurisdictions of other countries, and the possibility that they would feel we I raise this issue not in any partisan way. We can all were interfering in their legal business. agree or disagree with those figures, and I know that the We might not have pursued the amendment so strongly Minister does not agree with the interpretation and but for something that happened in the Home Affairs analysis of the Office for National Statistics, although Committee. When John Vine, chief inspector of UKBA, he was good enough to refer to Migrationwatch UK, appeared before the Committee, I asked whether he saw the work of which I and the right hon. Member for any valid role for the IPCC in extending its powers to Birkenhead (Mr. Field) admire and believe has brought juxtapose controls. In what may have been an off-the-cuff enormous credibility and sanity to the debate, enabling response, or one to which he would have liked to give us to discuss these matters in public. greater consideration—the Select Committee format As you will remember, Mr. Deputy Speaker, when does not really lend itself to that—he said that he could you and I first entered this House, if anyone was foolish not think of a reason it would not be appropriate for enough to raise this subject, they would be branded as the IPCC’s powers governing the activities of UKBA being on the far right of the Conservative party and officers to be applicable abroad. It could be said that treated as a pariah. There is no reason why you should that gives the amendment an additional weight which it remember this—I do not know whether you were in the did not have three or four hours ago. Chair at the time—but I had an Adjournment debate I hope the Minister will consider our proposals carefully. on immigration back when my right hon. Friend the I hope he will judge them to be in the same vein as the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron), who was present at proposals we presented in Committee in an attempt to the debate and has since rocketed past me and become improve the Bill and probe the Government’s intentions, the leader of my party, was a member of the Select but will give them a warmer and more positive response. Committee on Home Affairs. The right hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Beverley Hughes), whom I Mr. Soames: As my hon. Friend the Member for understand is to leave this House shortly, accused us of Ashford (Damian Green) observed, there is a sort of being racist. She said that even mentioning the subject ritual to these immigration Bills. They come around on the Floor of the House of Commons was unacceptable. almost annually, yet they never seem to close with the The Balanced Migration campaign has tried, in discussing main problem. the legislative process with Ministers, to enable this Before I lend my support to what my hon. Friend has country to have a serious and open debate about a said, let me remind the House that net foreign immigration matter that is of profound consequence and importance trebled between 1997 to 2007, from 107,000 to 333,000. to this country. During the same period, the net outflow of British I say this—I am grateful to you for giving me the citizens doubled to about 100,000 a year. The overall latitude to do so, Mr. Deputy Speaker—only because inflow—the backdrop against which these clauses are we must consider what will happen to the facilities that being debated and the Bill’s passage is to be completed—has we have created and will create if the legislation is not reached about 237,000 people a year, compared with right. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington 48,000 as recently as 1997. The total inflow of foreign (John McDonnell) spoke eloquently about such facilities citizens since 1997 is nearly 3 million. Those are enormous in his own constituency; I know a little bit about such figures, and, however we view them, they will have a facilities, because Gatwick used to be in my constituency profound consequence for the life of this country. The and I have visited them. The hon. Member for Thurrock Bill is a major piece of legislation. It is of the first (Andrew Mackinlay), who is sitting below the Gangway, importance to the security of our people, and to the in one of the most famous seats in the House of harmony and cohesion of our country. Commons, knows very well what he is talking about. I pay tribute to the rational, calm and sensible way in There are real difficulties at the moment in dealing with which the Minister approaches these matters. I personally this tidal wave. This is not designed to be an emotive think that he does a very good job in very trying speech, but we are talking about an enormous number circumstances, but that is as far as it goes, because I do of people. It is essential that the legislation provides not think that the Government are closing with the real proper, coherent, joined-up government to enable us to issues. The fact that the Minister appears to be in denial deal in a humane, decent and honourable way with the about the figures from the Office for National Statistics very large number of people who come to seek their is example enough. fortune and way of life in this country. 195 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 196 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Soames] immigration process, so that we can deal with our own issues and he can get on with dealing with his. That is I believe that in this Bill, the Government, who have how we should proceed. good intentions, are trying to deal with the matter— Chris Huhne (Eastleigh) (LD): Does the hon. Gentleman Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. I am reluctant to stop agree that the proposal for a separate immigration the hon. Gentleman—[Interruption.] Yes, I think he policy would be entirely unnecessary if we had an has probably exhausted my latitude. Perhaps he could Australian-style points-based system that allowed for now come to the matters in hand. This is not a Second the Scottish circumstances? That way, we could have a Reading debate. UK system without going quite as far as he suggests.

Mr. Soames: Mr. Deputy Speaker, you have been Pete Wishart: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman characteristically, magnificently generous and I am sorry for raising that, because exactly what is lacking in the to have abused your hospitality in the Chair; I will cease points-based system is the flexibility that would allow to do so. the nations of the UK to determine their own immigration I want very quickly to say only this. I support my requirements and help us to deal with the challenging hon. Friend the Member for Ashford on the question of immigration and population issues that we face. We the short-term holding facilities. As I have said, those need those powers and we need them now, in order to who have to design and run those facilities have to tackle the challenges we will face in future. manage a very unhappy, difficult and frustrated population I want to address my remarks to new clause 2 and the of people, and my goodness, if one were there oneself, consequential amendments, and to support the very one would understand very well why they feel that way. good amendments (a) and (b), from the hon. Gentleman They are frightened for their future, for their families and his colleagues. Regardless of what the Minister said and particularly for their children, and they do not to me in response to my earlier intervention, there is no know what is going to happen. It is important that doubt that the current arrangements for the short-term those centres be humane, decent, properly run places. detention of detainees are less than satisfactory and are, The only point that I wish to make to the Minister is in fact, inadequate. What is proposed in new clause 2 that I hope he is satisfied on this issue. He does not will only make matters worse and compound the situation agree with me, with Migrationwatch UK, with the ONS in which the detainees find themselves. or, apparently, with anyone else about the number of It is not just the independent monitoring board and people involved. He knows very well, however, because Lord West, but Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons he is an intelligent man, that the numbers are very great. that found the situation in nearly all the short-term holding facilities less than adequate. It found difficulties Mr. Woolas: The hon. Gentleman makes a very with ensuring that children could be looked after, with important point. In questioning the 70 million figure as access to legal advice, and with ensuring that even basic an extrapolation, not a projection, I am in no way things such as toilet facilities were of a suitable standard. diminishing the importance of his point about the net There was no child care training or policy, and there migration figures to which he draws attention. I do, of were no child protection arrangements. There were course, accept that point. bullying issues, and no way for some of those complaints to be addressed. I hope the Minister recognises that Mr. Soames: I am grateful to the Minister for saying there are difficulties and issues in the short-term holding that. facilities, and that the Government should take the matter seriously and try to resolve it. On the structure of the administration of the facilities and the accompanying bureaucracy, a very important 6pm point was made about liaison between police forces. I have not had the same experience, but I know very well I am particularly concerned about the care and welfare of the inability of police forces to work properly together of children, which is the nub of the issue, whether in the unless they are made to do so; indeed, every such short-term, or in the longer-term, detention estate. On attempt to make them do so has nearly always been seen Second Reading, I had a useful exchange with the off. Given the great difficulty in coping with this large Minister and the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian and increasing number of people, it is essential that the Green), with a real desire to consider the detention of Minister and my hon. Friend are satisfied that the children, whether in the long or short term. I thought legislation can cope with such numbers. The steps that that we were making progress with the idea that the the Government are taking to diminish their numbers issue had to be addressed as a priority. will have only a very marginal effect. The Minister is right: I have raised several parliamentary questions on the subject. On Second Reading, I mentioned Pete Wishart: It is a pleasure to follow the hon. the case of a family from Africa, who came to Glasgow. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames). There is no They had been subjected to a dawn raid and held at the doubt that he brings a great deal of experience and Dungavel long-term detention facility.They were deported passion to the debate, and where the amendments did to the Ivory Coast by private jet, only to be returned get a fleeting look in, he certainly brought a great deal immediately to a detention centre in England. I now of interest to it. May I say gently to him that the range understand that the family is to be deported this week of issues he described does not apply to my nation? It is to Senegal, again by private jet via Brazil. experiencing structural depopulation, so we face the I asked some questions about the cost of such opposite range of issues. I hope he recognises that, and deportations, and I could not believe the responses I agrees that what Scotland perhaps requires is its own received. For example, the cost of holding and deporting 197 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 198 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] the family in the case I have mentioned has been £70,000, and many people do not want so many to come, so why even before this week’s round of deportations. Other should these detention centres be comfortable?” Then parliamentary questions revealed that the cost of chartering the good Charles Walker holds sway and says, “Yes, private aircraft had almost doubled in the last year to there are bad people who want to come to this country more than £8.2 million. The UK Border Agency spent and do bad things, but there are also many good people £26.8 million on chartered and scheduled flights to escaping terrible oppression.” remove immigrants at the taxpayers’ expense in 2008-09. Of course, if people are put in a short-term detention A total of £81.5 million has been spent since 2005. centre for seven days, they are not illegal immigrants, Those are staggering figures, and they reveal just how because they have not entered the country and been lost much is spent in deporting people from this country. within the system. They have been detained at our Would it not be more cost-effective to consider other, borders. We have to ensure that while people are in the more creative solutions to deal with the problem? Is short-term detention centres, it is not a near-prison deportation always the answer in such cases, especially experience. They must be looked after and receive the when the costs are so astronomical? I urge the Minister support that my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford to look at this problem. (Damian Green) mentioned. They have the right to legal representation, interpretation services and so on. Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP): I understand As I said, many good people will be caught up in the the hon. Gentleman’s point about the cost, and perhaps system. the answer is to administer deportations more effectively, Many people will take an interest in amendment 20, but would it not send the wrong signal if deportations because short-term detention facilities last at most seven were to stop and we were simply to say that we would days. For many people who leave those centres, the look for an internal solution? Would not that encourage nightmare will just be beginning. They may face years even more people to come to the UK, because they and years caught up in a system that refuses to give would see it as a soft touch? them a clear decision on their immigration status. They will be in limbo, unable to work and relying on handouts. Pete Wishart: The hon. Gentleman is right, and We said at the start of the debate that it was important deportation is necessary in many cases. No hon. Member that our immigration system was humane. My concern would argue that that is not necessary, but the parliamentary is that although we may have humane seven-day detention questions revealed the staggering cost of the process. I centres, the rest of the system will continue to be did not know that all this was happening, and I am sure inhumane. We need to remove people from this country that other hon. Members did not know about those far more quickly than we do at present, but at the same excessive costs. I challenge the Minister to consider time it is almost madness that we force people to wait other methods, including alternatives to detention and for up to a decade for a decision. We need to take a deportation, to try to make progress. I know that some broader look—outside amendment 20 and this Bill—at work has been done in that area and it should be how we treat people who come to this country. Yes, in encouraged. It seems that the solution to all the problems many cases, sending them home will be the right thing is either to detain or deport, but there must be other to do, but it may now be time to consider whether we answers that are more humane and more cost-effective. should let people work while they are waiting for the We should ask what these people may have to contribute decision. The quid pro quo for our constituents could to our communities and our society, and I hope that the be that we would make that decision in, at most, a Home Office will look seriously at the issue. couple of years, and we would remove people after that The costs of the immigration system are spiralling period. However, while they are here, we would not out of control. We are compounding the problem with make their lives a living hell. We are a first-world further measures on the short-term detention of immigrants country, and we need to behave like one when it comes that will not be helpful. I support amendments (a) and to immigration. (b), as tabled by the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) and his troika of colleagues on the Liberal Mr. Woolas: I will restrict my remarks to the amendments Democrat Front Bench. The amendments would help before us. We have had a wide-ranging debate on these to mitigate some of the more damaging aspects of new amendments that has been well informed on the subject clause 2 and I hope that they secure the support of the areas, but not always relevant to the amendments House. We have to ensure that we do not make a bad before us— situation worse. Sensitivity is required, but we seem to be making Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. Sometimes it is reasonable matters worse. We look at immigration issues in black to allow a little background to the amendments that we and white, but we have to challenge ourselves to be are discussing, and sometimes I extend that generosity more creative in our approach, to consider other solutions to the Minister himself. and to start to explore other avenues. I hope that the House rejects new clause 2 as drafted and supports Mr. Woolas: I am very aware of that, Mr. Deputy amendments (a) and (b), so that we can start to make Speaker, and very grateful. It is, of course, entirely a some progress on these important issues. matter for you and not for me. However, it is sometimes difficult to answer specific points that have been raised Mr. Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con): There is a if they are not directly relevant to the amendments, good Charles Walker and a bad Charles Walker. The even though they might be generally relevant. bad Charles Walker says on occasions, “Why should the Let me try to explain again what the amendments on short-term detention centres be particularly welcoming? the short-term holding facilities do. There has been a We have loads of immigrants coming to this country, discussion about them this afternoon and, at times, the 199 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 200 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Woolas] badly.” I would like to feel happier about the performance of the Minister’s Department, which is much improved issue of detention centres has been confused with the since he has been there, but it is still questionable in the issue of short-term holding facilities. It is, of course, the cases that I see from week to week. latter that we are talking about. Typically, in a short-term holding centre people will be held for a small number of Mr. Woolas: I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. hours and rarely for longer. There are some examples, I do not claim personal credit for the improvements—at of course. least not here. It is true that the UK Border Agency, The hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) made since its creation, should be commended on the a point about the time that it takes. Of course, some of improvements in the clearing of the backlog and on the the legacy cases have taken a number of years. That is report by our chief executive to the Select Committee regrettable, but it is most often caused by not the lack of on Home Affairs. Any reasonably minded person who a clear decision but a series of legal challenges involving follows the letters and exchanges would accept that appeal, fresh application, application for judicial review there has been significant improvement in effectiveness and so on. It is exactly that point—that justice delayed in terms of both quality and quantity. It is our policy is justice denied both for the applicant and the taxpayer— objective to speed up decisions and to improve their that our proposals on judicial review are designed to quality. Part of that, however—this is not a contradictory address. Given that the hon. Gentleman spoke so strongly point but a supplementary one—involves trying to improve and passionately about the need for speedy decisions, I the processes through the independent system. That is hope that he will support us, if we divide tonight, on the what this group of amendments is about. That is where administrative reforms. Lord Kingsland played a very helpful role.

Mr. Walker: The Minister is very generous in giving 6.15 pm way, and he is very good at laying traps—I hope that I do not fall in to one. I take his comments in the spirit in Mr. Walker: I agree with what my right hon. Friend which they are said. What probably concerns his the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer) says. I constituents, as well as mine, is the sheer length of time deal with a number of immigration cases where I think, that it seems to take to remove certain people who are “For goodness’ sake, this is clearly a good person, so refused entry. We can perhaps both agree on that. can we get on with it?” However, I support the Minister in that I think that Members of Parliament have to be Mr. Woolas: I gave way to the good hon. Gentleman, far more robust in supporting the work of his Department and his intervention was good, too. My experience is when we feel that it has got it right. We need to say to that the delay of deportation to which he refers—rather the people who come through our door, “No, a decision than the delay of an immigration or asylum decision—is, has been made. It was the right decision and it is time in practice, either due to legal challenge and non-acceptance for you to go back to where you came from.” of the decisions of the judiciary, which we will debate in a later group of amendments if you allow it, Mr. Deputy Mr. Woolas: The hon. Gentleman describes the two Speaker, or to do with false claims of country of origin. pressures on us, even if it is not quite a Jekyll and Hyde For example, many people who claim to be Zimbabwean situation. I believe, as I am sure that he does, that most are, we discover, nothing of the sort. Many people who right hon. and hon. Members do the right thing. There claim to be Kosovan turn out to be Albanian. In some is a balance between advocacy for the individual and cases, the country of origin refuses to issue documentation pursuing the honest policy. My experience is that we, as and the bad side of our characters, which says that we Members, are often naive about the intent and content should get on with it, often misses the reality, which is of cases that are put before us. Close examination by that it is not possible to get on with it because of the our officials often paints a different picture from the dispute. In those circumstances, the thrust of policy is one presented to us. It is understandable that people designed to speed up that system because the delays are, present their case in a good light. frankly, unacceptable. That is why, given what the hon. I oversee the detention of children. In the UKBA, we Gentleman has said, I am sure that his good side would have a number of layers of checks to ensure that we are support my comments on the changes required to the doing the right thing. The hon. Member for Perth and process of tribunals and courts and on the behaviour of North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) asked whether detention some lawyers. is necessary. It is a last resort, but let us consider case studies from among those children. Of course, I cannot Mr. John Gummer (Suffolk, Coastal) (Con): Does the name individuals but I have one such case study that I Minister agree that those of us who are very sympathetic chose at random before today’s debate. The person was to his argument still have a number of cases that have involved in two counts of sexual assault, possession of taken a very long time? I had one such case in my a knife and blade in a public place, assault and battery surgery on Saturday, in which a perfectly respectable and three counts of theft. He was sentenced to 12 months’ person in my constituency, and known to me, married detention—this is a child by legal definition; he is somebody. The marriage is disputed, but he has been obviously a teenager. That sentence was increased to promised a decision again and again. However, when 18 months on appeal, as the judge decided that the the decision comes, it is so ludicrous and the way in crime was even worse than had been first judged. The which it has been documented is so manifestly unconnected person was put into immigration detention and then, of with that individual—the smallest amount of investigation course, he appealed. He subsequently claimed asylum, would have discovered that what has been said is clearly which he is allowed to do under the Geneva convention, not true—that it makes it difficult to say, “A lot of cases to which we are a signatory. That was refused. He was out there have to be put right because lawyers behave then served with a notice of intention to deport, he 201 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 202 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] appealed against the deportation order and a further the individual locations. Short-term holding facilities hearing had to take place. So it goes on. Our policy runs therefore appear as a class of place: there is no reason against the background of those legal checks, which why their inclusion in the direction should need to be this House and the other place would support in general. renewed and no real purpose served in doing so. That case, which I have not chosen as an extreme If the term “designation” is meant to be a reference example—it was a genuinely random case—shows that to the designation of a short-term holding facility for we are often not dealing with what hon. Members are the purposes of PACE, again there is no need for the presented with on the face of it. It is an asylum case; I reviews proposed by this amendment. There is no such do not say that about the majority of immigration requirement in PACE, or in the orders applying PACE cases. I agree with the point made by the hon. Member to Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. I do not believe for Broxbourne that speedier decisions are better for all that there is any need for such a requirement here. concerned. However, our policies are delivering in that The Secretary of State will designate a facility for the regard and the Home Affairs Committee has played a purposes of PACE only when he is satisfied that it meets useful role. the requirements and standards set out in PACE and The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire Home Office guidance. Only a short-term holding facility talked about alternatives. We referred to the pilot project that meets those requirements will therefore be designated in the area represented by the hon. Member for Ashford for the purposes of PACE. (Damian Green). Of the 30 families in the pilot, only I hope that the House accepts the logic of my argument. one turned up. Detention is used because people do not It is clear that, having designated a short-term holding want to be deported and so abscond. We are sometimes facility for the purposes of PACE, the Secretary of forced to call on homes early in the morning to avoid State will retain responsibility for ensuring that the having to call on schools. We want to keep families facility remains compliant with the relevant standards. together: if there was an alternative, I assure the House If the facility falls below those standards at any time, that we would use it. Detention is the last resort, but I the designation will be withdrawn, so there is no need to emphasise that we are talking about short-term holding introduce an administratively burdensome six-monthly facilities, and not detention centres. review requirement when PACE already provides the The hon. Member for Ashford asked a number of appropriate framework for the designation process. questions and I shall answer them in the order that I have the answers before me, rather than in any other Damian Green: I take the Minister’s point, which is logical order. He asked about the typical immigration indeed clear, but how will the Secretary of State know? offences involved here, and I can tell him that issues One of the purposes of our amendment was to ensure relating to smuggling drugs and people are foremost that there was a mechanism for the provision of information. among them. He also asked about the regulations that Presumably the facility would be kept up to the mark, apply, and I can assure him that the PACE regulations but I am not clear what mechanism there is under will continue to apply to persons arrested and detained PACE to make sure that the Secretary of State knows in the short-term holding facilities. what is going on. The hon. Gentleman asked about timetables. The Mr. Woolas: The independent monitoring board and PACE timetables apply in these cases—that is, a person the inspectorate regime provide the framework for specific can be detained for up to six hours in a facility that is places that are named. The hon. Gentleman said that he not designated under PACE, and for up to 96 hours in a was concerned about too much inspection, and I understand place that is so designated. He asked what levels of legal that point, but the PACE regulations cover the classes advice were available, and that matter again is covered of designated areas. He asks a reasonable question, but by the PACE regulations, including the right to access he may as well ask how the Home Secretary knows that the duty solicitor. a cell in a police station is up to standard. The answer is The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire that he will know such information through the various referred to the concerns about the independent monitoring inspection frameworks that are in place, and through board. I do not dismiss their importance but, to be fair, the police authority mechanisms. they are largely historical. As I said before, we have My answer to the hon. Gentleman’s question is that taken up the recommendations in most cases. the PACE regulations will make sure that the Home It is difficult to accept amendment 20 on short-term Secretary is in possession of the necessary detail. My holding facilities, not least because we propose to remove concern is that amendment 20 is a long way around a clause 25 but also because it is not clear from the short corner, to use a Lancastrian phrase. amendment what sort of designation is being referred Proposed new subsections (a) and (b) to new clause 2, to. If it is the designation of a particular place as a which replaces the existing clause 25, attracted support short-term holding facility, it is not clear why that in the debate this afternoon. I think that the hon. designation should need renewing every six months. In Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake) any event, all places of immigration detention are specified was praising the lawyers for spotting the mistake, and it as such in a direction made by Ministers under shows the Home Office’s good intent that we have paragraph 18(1) of schedule 2 to the Immigration Act recognised the point being made. We have sought to put 1971. The direction is modified or replaced from time to the matter right, and that shows why scrutiny in Committee time, and a copy of the current direction is in the House is important. Sometimes it appears very technical—and, Libraries. dare I say it, boring to the outsider—but it remains Aside from immigration removal centres, which are important and we have recognised the unintended identified individually, the direction specifies the categories consequence of our original proposal. However, let me of place in which a person may be detained, rather than explain our thinking on that point. 203 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 204 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Woolas] circumstances arise during the discussions that make it necessary, and of course I will agree to one. I like to Proposed new subsection (a) would restrict the persons think that I and my colleagues always make ourselves who may be held in a short-term holding facility to available for meetings with Members of Parliament. It those who have been detained is not our job to interfere in the discussions between the “by an immigration officer, general customs official or Customs management and the unions, but we hope that we will revenue official.” be able to reach agreement. Indeed, I am confident that I hope that the hon. Gentleman will bear with me, we will. because I asked exactly the same question as he did Important assurances have been sought, and I think when the point was put to me. The effect of the amendment that I can give my hon. Friend the reassurance that he would be to undermine the objectives of the UK Border seeks. Only those who are immigration officers or other Agency and HMRC, which are seeking to maximise officials of the Secretary of State may be designated as their ability to make use of existing detention facilities. general customs officials or customs revenue officials. It was agreed in Committee that it makes operational Officials of the Secretary of State will include the sense that individuals who have been arrested on suspicion current officers of HMRC once they have transferred to of committing a customs offence, whether by a customs the UK Border Agency, but not the private contractors. official of the UKBA or an officer of HMRC, should I did not want private contractors to be so defined, so I be able to be detained in a short-term holding facility hope that that answers my hon. Friend’s second question for up to six hours or, where such a facility has been and provides some reassurance. designated for the purposes of PACE or PACE (NI)—that The amendments would have two main effects. First, is, PACE as it applies in Northern Ireland—as a place they would prevent the Secretary of State from designating of detention, for longer than six hours, in accordance immigration officers and other existing officials of the with the time limits prescribed by the PACE clock. To UKBA as general customs officials. Secondly, they would restrict flexibility in the way that amendment 20 proposes remove the director of border revenue’s ability to vary would prevent UKBA and HMRC from making the the designation of customs revenue officials according most effective use of existing detention facilities. to business need. Even though they would not, as seems Proposed new subsection (b) to new clause 2 would to have been the further intention, prevent the director restrict the period of detention in a short-term holding from designating immigration officers as customs revenue facility of persons other than administrative immigration officials, the amendments would undermine the very detainees to six hours. That is unnecessary: as I have point of bringing together the customs and immigrations already said, the revised definition of short-term holding functions, which everyone in Committee was agreed on, facilities would have no effect whatsoever on the relevant notwithstanding the differences raised over the police, time limits that apply to a person’s detention or custody which we covered in some depth. in those facilities, including those that apply in the case The general problem is that we need to achieve that of an arrested person whose detention is regulated by objective while ensuring, as my hon. Friend rightly the provisions of PACE. says, that staff judge that the two functions have been In accordance with the provision that we are making brought together harmoniously. elsewhere in part 1 of the Bill, where an arrested person The border force has been criticised for a lack of is detained in a short-term holding facility the appropriate success in tackling crime, but I must reject that accusation. obligations and safeguards in PACE, or PACE (NI), The new border force that we have in place already will continue to apply. provides a team with a single purpose; it is a unified Under the proposals in the Bill, individuals who have border force with a single strategy, a brand and an been arrested on suspicion of committing an offence, identity. It has the right blend of skilled and specialist whether immigration or customs, may be detained in a staff who have defined career paths supported by a short-term holding facility for up to six hours or, where strong performance culture. The force has the flexibility such a facility has been designated as a place of detention, to enable managers to focus deployment on priorities for longer than six hours. The hon. Gentleman is therefore that matter to the public. We have stopped more than seeking to change the designation process. What I am 14,000 attempts to cross the channel illegally and searched seeking to do in my amendments is to put right the more than 400,000 freight vehicles. I was grateful to the unintended consequences, as I explained earlier. hon. Member for Mid-Sussex (Mr. Soames) for his acknowledgement of the bravery and hard work of 6.30 pm UKBA officials, who have seized in excess of £240 million Amendments 9 to 13 were tabled my hon. Friends the of smuggled cigarettes, representing a loss of £45 million Members for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) and for Hayes of tax revenue. They have seized £100 million of illegal and Harlington (John McDonnell). As they said, the drugs and taken 5,300 dangerous weapons, including amendments honourably reflect the concerns of the firearms, off the streets. Public and Commercial Services Union, as did some The relationship between the police and the UKBA similar amendments tabled in the other place. There are has been raised, and it was discussed in Committee. a number of broader issues at play, but if I could answer Without repeating what was said in Committee, I suppose my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington that the argument comes down to what is the relationship directly, we have sought to meet the points that have between the existing police forces and the UKBA. Apart been made. I am grateful to him for his thanks for the from the disruption that a merger would bring about, meeting that we held. It is not the role of Ministers to our fear is that it would make proper partnership working interfere in trade union matters, and I know that he is with the 43 police forces in England and Wales, the not asking me to do that. He is asking me to ensure that eight in Scotland and the force in Northern Ireland policy is implemented. He asked for another meeting if more difficult. 205 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 206 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Andrew Mackinlay: I urge the Minister to reflect on have not given £15 million to the French to police their this and to be cautious about listening to the advice of own border; we are spending £15 million to police our the Home Office police advisers who are drawn from border, which, with the agreement of the French, is in territorial policing. The obvious parallel is with the France, and thank goodness it is. British Transport police. It is a dedicated, specialist As I have said, the Government remain committed to force that collaborates with the county and Metropolitan securing appropriate oversight of all complaints and police forces, and that is what would and should incidents. It has always been our intention that the happen if we had a proper, comprehensive, highly mobile IPCC should have a statutory role in relation to the police force incorporating the border force in our ports UKBA only in England and Wales, just as it does in around the United Kingdom. It is just common sense, respect of the police and the other organisations that it and the people who oppose that are jealous of safeguarding oversees. However, there is an argument for introducing the old territorial jurisdiction of the Met and the oversight of complaints relating to the exercise of specified county forces. enforcement functions by our officers at juxtaposed controls. Recently, following the Standing Committee Mr. Woolas: I can assure my hon. Friend that we have debate on the issue, we wrote to the IPCC to inquire looked closely into the matter. It has been the subject of whether it would be content to consider having a non- an important debate. The Stevens report raised it, and it statutory role in overseeing UKBA internal investigations was also raised in the other place. The Public Bill into relevant matters at the juxtaposed controls. We Committee found that opinion is divided among police await a formal response from it, but I understand that it authorities and forces, including not just those with a is looking at the proposal positively. vested territorial interest. My fear is that if we created It makes sense to get the experts in, but as I am sure such a force as a designated force either within UKBA that the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington or amalgamated it with existing officials, our ability to appreciates, there are delicate matters relating to the get the nationwide police forces to work with us as French; they are tremendous partners in the endeavour partners would be diminished, not increased. The very that we are discussing, but we recognise the sovereignty example that my hon. Friend gave proves my point. It is of their soil. sometimes difficult to get local police forces to take part in our endeavours. Anyone who has had the good Tom Brake indicated assent. fortune of watching “Border Force” on Sky Television, Mr. Woolas: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman produced in co-operation with the UKBA, will understand agrees; he is nodding his assent. I am grateful to him for the wisdom of my words. The fact is that the situation is that. I believe that I have answered all the specific significantly improving. questions that were raised. Some of the debate was I turn quickly to the points about the Independent more general, but I hope that I have satisfied right hon. Police Complaints Commission and the evidence of the and hon. Members that we have considered the points chief inspector. The hon. Member for Carshalton and that were made. I therefore ask the House to oppose the Wallington said that it was by chance that he gave amendments that hon. Members have tabled, and to evidence this morning. It was a fortunate chance from support the Government new clause. the point of view of his argument. Nevertheless, it does Question put and agreed to. not take away from the point that France is France. We have had some improvements as a result of the debate New clause 2 accordingly read a Second time, and in Committee and we are looking at a voluntary means added to the Bill. of ensuring that inspection can take place with the same New Clause 8 effect as the hon. Gentleman seeks. Progress has been made on that, but the legal point that I made in Committee TRANSFER OF CERTAIN IMMIGRATION JUDICIAL REVIEW remains the same. APPLICATIONS Tom Brake: I welcome the fact that some investigations ‘(1) In section 31A of the Supreme Court Act 1981 (c. 54) (England and Wales: transfer from the High Court to the Upper are being undertaken into whether a voluntary arrangement Tribunal)— could be brought into effect. Can the Minister give hon. Members any more information about what is being (a) after subsection (2) insert— considered, the time scales over which it is being considered, “(2A) If Conditions 1, 2, 3 and 5 are met, but Condition 4 is what in practice we might see and whether it is something not, the High Court must by order transfer the application to the that the House might be given the chance to consider in Upper Tribunal.”, and the future? (b) after subsection (7) insert— “(8) Condition 5 is that the application calls into question a Mr. Woolas: As it happens, I have before me a note decision of the Secretary of State not to treat submissions as an on that very point. In his evidence to the Home Affairs asylum claim or a human rights claim within the meaning of Committee, the chief inspector of the UK Border Agency Part 5 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 made it clear that he was giving a personal view, and (c. 41) wholly or partly on the basis that they are not significantly that the issue was a matter for Parliament; of course, he different from material that has previously been considered is right, and I respect him for that. He said that he (whether or not it calls into question any other decision).” thought that the IPCC should have a role wherever (2) In section 25A of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) Act enforcement powers were exercised, and he did not 1978 (c. 23) (Northern Ireland: transfer from the High Court to think that the IPCC’s remit should be curtailed by the Upper Tribunal)— geographical boundaries. I think that that refers to the (a) after subsection (2) insert— juxtaposed borders, which are in France. Just for the “(2A) If Conditions 1, 2, 3 and 5 are met, but Condition 4 is record, to answer the points made by the hon. Member not, the High Court must by order transfer the application to the for Ashford in quotes to the tabloid newspapers, we Upper Tribunal.”, and 207 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 208 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] (b) after subsection (7) insert— Government amendments 42 and 43. “(8) Condition 5 is that the application calls into question a Amendment 25, in clause 59, page 47, line 39, at end decision of the Secretary of State not to treat submissions as an insert asylum claim or a human rights claim within the meaning of Part 5 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 ‘, provided this is no sooner than two years after the date of (c. 41) wholly or partly on the basis that they are not significantly Royal Assent,’. different from material that has previously been considered Government amendments 44 and 45. (whether or not it calls into question any other decision).” (3) In section 20 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Mr. Woolas: We now move on to the administration Act 2007 (c. 15) (Scotland: transfer from the Court of Session to of justice, and judicial review in particular. In my opening the Upper Tribunal)— remarks on the previous group of amendments, I mentioned (a) in subsection (1), for the “and” at the end of paragraph our sadness, which I know is reflected across the House, (a) substitute— at the death of Lord Kingsland at the weekend. He “(aa) must, if Conditions 1, 2 and 5 are met, but really was a superb politician who brought the best Condition 4 is not, and”, and attributes of politics to his public service. He had a long (b) after subsection (5) insert— and distinguished career in the areas of public policy, “(5A) Condition 5 is that the application calls into question a politics and the law. Indeed, I recall that he represented decision of the Secretary of State not to treat submissions as an Stanley Adams, for those who remember that case. He asylum claim or a human rights claim within the meaning of was greatly appreciated in the Home Office. He genuinely Part 5 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 improved our legislation by his scrutiny. His death at (c. 41) wholly or partly on the basis that they are not significantly the weekend caused great sadness and was a great loss different from material that has previously been considered to the other place. (whether or not it calls into question any other decision).”’.— (Mr. Woolas.) The amendments that we have brought forward reflect Brought up, and read the First time. our discussions with Lord Kingsland to seek an accommodation of his concerns and those of Members Mr. Woolas: I beg to move, That the clause be read a in the other House. With their help, I think that we have Second time. managed to make a good job of that. The Government’s position, as I explained to the Committee, was and Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Alan Haselhurst): With this continues to be that we should give the judiciary the it will be convenient to discuss the following: new powers that they need to manage cases in the best clause 6—Right of appeal to court of appeal— interests of justice. ‘Section 13(6) of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act The right hon. Member for Suffolk, Coastal 2007 (c. 15) (right of appeal to court of appeal etc.) does not (Mr. Gummer) expressed his frustration at a particular apply in relation to immigration and nationality appeals from the case, and I suspect that that reflected his frustration at Upper Tribunal.’. other cases. Part of our objective is to ensure that the Government amendment 41. expert judges take the decisions. Judicial reviews often Amendment 31, in clause 54, page 45, line 21, leave go above that level, or to the side of it, as some would out paragraph (a). put it. Part of our objective is precisely to ensure that it Amendment 32, page 45, line 23, leave out paragraph (c). is the immigration judges, who have the expertise, experience Amendment 33, page 45, line 26, leave out paragraph (a). and knowledge, who take the decisions. By that means, we are trying to address some of the frustrations felt by Amendment 34, page 45, line 28, leave out paragraph (c). the right hon. Gentleman and, I am sure, other hon. Amendment 35, page 45, line 31, leave out paragraph (a). Members; my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow Amendment 36, page 45, line 33, leave out paragraph (c). (Mr. Gerrard) has raised similar frustrations with me Amendment 37, page 45, line 33, at end insert— on numerous occasions. ‘(3A) Nothing in section 31A of the Supreme Court Act 1981 (c. 54) (England and Wales transfer from the High Court to the 6.45 pm Upper Tribunal), section 25 of the Judicature (Northern Ireland) In Committee, we reinstated the original judicial Act 1978 (c. 23) (Northern Ireland: transfer from the High Court review clause to ensure that the judiciary has the necessary to the Upper Tribunal) or section 20 of the Tribunals, Courts and powers available to them. However, we said that we Enforcement Act 2007 (c. 15) (transfer from the Court of Session to the Upper Tribunal) shall permit the transfer of any wanted to seek consensus on the Bill, so I am mindful of application where the application calls into question a decision the views expressed in another place. New clause 8, under— amendment 25 and amendments 41 to 45 reflect the (a) the British Nationality Act 1981 (c. 61), essence of the clause as it was when it left the other (b) any instrument having effect under an enactment place. Concern was expressed about the timing of transfers within paragraph (a), or of judicial review, and about overwhelming the upper (c) any other provision of law for the time being in force tribunal. There were also differences on points of principle, which determines British citizenship, British overseas but it is, I believe, recognised that the administrative territories citizenship, the status of a British National court is under enormous pressure. We have made the (Overseas) or British Overseas citizenship.’. case for the transfer of at least some cases. Fresh claims Amendment 38, page 45, line 33, at end insert— have been identified by the Lord Chief Justice as the most suitable class of case for transfer. I should explain ‘(3A) The Secretary of State must by affirmative order make provision for the transfer of fresh claim applications made under to the House that a “fresh claim” is not a fresh claim; it rule 353 of the Immigration Rules to the Upper Tribunal. is a renewed or refreshed claim. (3B) An order under the above subsection may not be made The effect of our proposed new clause is that the until after the Asylum and Immigration jurisdiction has been Lord Chief Justice, with the agreement of the Lord transferred to the First Tier Tribunal and Upper Tribunal.’. Chancellor, will be able to order the transfer of judicial 209 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 210 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] review cases that deal with so-called fresh claims to the As I said, I have no difficulty with this last point, upper tribunal. Transfer of other cases, either on a which is covered in the Government’s new clause. Similarly, case-by-case basis or on a class-of-case basis, will not be the requirement under amendment 38 that the Secretary possible; that is the change to the earlier proposal. That of State make provision for the transfer of fresh claims will go a significant way, I believe, to alleviating the is unnecessary, first because we are committed to addressing burden on the higher courts. Once the upper tribunal the burden in the High Court as soon as possible, and has established its ability to deal efficiently and effectively secondly because such orders are not required to implement with fresh claims judicial reviews, the House may be case-by-case transfer of cases. Amendment 25, however, persuaded that it should be able to deal with other would mean that the clause cannot be commenced until cases, too, but that is a matter for another day. two years after Royal Assent. The burden on the higher courts exists now and we need to address it now. I Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): In the light of what the understand the motive behind the amendments, but we Minister says, does he have estimates of the number of need to get on with it. cases that will be transferred, and the number that will Amendment 38 requires commencement by affirmative be left where they are? order. This is not necessary or desirable, if we are talking only about commencing the power to transfer a Mr. Woolas: I thank the hon. Gentleman for his limited class of cases, as I said we are. The judiciary question; he goes to the heart of the matter. About have made it very clear, and the other place has accepted 4,600 judicial review applications were made in the last in principle, that fresh claims cases should be transferred, year. Of those, about 900 related to the “fresh claims” which makes commencement by affirmative order class. That is a significant number, and I am advised unnecessary. that those 900 are the largest single class, but they are The other amendments cause considerable difficulty. far from being the majority of claims, so his question is Primarily, they would cause difficulty for the judiciary, pertinent. The measure meets our objective of bringing who would be hampered in their ability to manage cases us more into line with other tribunal services. It meets in the best interests of justice. Some of the amendments our objective relating to the good point made by the in the group are concerned with limiting the categories hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) about the of case that may be transferred, and the Government speed and efficiency of decisions. It meets our objective amendments achieve much the same ends. Amendment 38 of having the expertise available. It also allows the suffers from the same drafting difficulties as we have upper court to look at the other cases. It does not seen in previous amendments to the clause— applications exclude their transfer to the upper tribunal. It just are not made under rule 353 of the immigration rules; means that they must go via that route. they are refused under it. Requiring a High Court judge to consider every case Mr. Walker: Can the Minister say how many cases before transferring it defeats the point of allowing cases are referred to judicial review each year? to be transferred into the upper tribunal. This is not what the judiciary want and it does not address the Mr. Woolas: There are an incredible 4,600-plus burden that the higher courts are facing. If there is to be applications. Around 85 per cent. of them are rejected. any positive impact from transferring fresh claims judicial That backs up my assertion that some of them are an review cases into the upper tribunal, they should be attempt to play the system. Of course we do not wish to transferred on a class basis, without the need for a High deny justice or access to justice, and our proposals do Court judge to scrutinise every case. That is what the not do so. That has been accepted. The hon. Gentleman judiciary has asked for and what the Government is right: justice delayed is justice denied. amendments provide. The Opposition amendments would The new clause extends the same powers to the Lord take away any possible benefit from clause 54, and I Chief Justice in Northern Ireland and the Lord President therefore ask the House to consider carefully the real-world in Scotland, in line with the procedures set out in the impact and therefore to resist them. Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. It also New clause 6 prevents the Lord Chancellor from provides that it cannot be commenced—the hon. Member making an order which restricts the test for permission for Ashford has tabled an amendment on the to appeal to the Court of Appeal to that set out in the commencement provisions—until the asylum and Access to Justice Act 1999. The Master of the Rolls immigration tribunal has been transferred into the first-tier supports this more restrictive test—it is not something tribunal and upper tribunal system established by the that we are imposing on the judiciary against their will, Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act. That was always as some had feared. We are clear that the test would not the policy intention, which is why I am happy to make it stop cases that raise important issues concerning human clear in the Bill. rights or asylum being granted permission to appeal to The amendments tabled by the Opposition address a the Court of Appeal. That is a critical point, which number of points. Some are on similar lines to the came up in the other place. Government’s own amendment, so I cannot in all fairness The test would simply allow judges to refuse permission resist them on policy grounds. Others limit the power to in cases where there was no important point of principle transfer judicial reviews in ways that we regard as or practice and no other compelling reason to grant unacceptable. The effect of new clause 6 and amendments 31 permission. It is preferable to have a single test for the to 38 is that the Lord Chancellor cannot limit the test hearing of appeals by the Court of Appeal, and we are for appealing to the Court of Appeal. High Court satisfied that the amendment is not necessary to provide judges must review every case before transferring them the protection for immigration cases, which we accept to the upper tribunal, and even then cannot transfer can raise important issues of life and liberty, although nationality cases—not until the asylum and immigration other appeals can also raise important issues. Again, I tribunal has transferred into the unified tribunal system. ask hon. Members to consider the impact of new clause 6. 211 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 212 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Paul Rowen: The Minister makes an important point. As the Minister is aware, this is a vexed issue, but I Given the gravity of the statement that he has just sympathise with his attempt to strike a balance. We all made, will he write to Members with examples of how agree that something must be done to ease the case load he sees that operating? New clause 6 was designed to of the asylum and immigration tribunal. It is one of ensure the safeguards that he says are not affected. If he many things that are wrong with the system, and it could confirm that, it would go a long way to allaying promotes delay and, therefore, frustration. Indeed, part many concerns that hon. Members have. of the reason for the backlog is that poor initial decision making leads to a large number of appeals and to Mr. Woolas: I am happy to do that. I believe it would problems with cases that are being decided only on be helpful. One could say that I am giving in graciously. paper. This is not the position that we started with at the The Minister will be aware of those concerns, which beginning of the passage of the Bill. It is the consequence he seeks to address in new clause 8, and of the Government’s of the debate both in Committee and in the other place, rush to transfer immigration cases to the new upper and the discussions that we have had. I can assure the tribunal. It is barely up and running, but it cuts down House that I have given Opposition and Cross-Bench access to the higher courts. The widespread feeling is peers access to advice from officials in a very open way, that Home Office failings must not be compensated for because the policy goal that we are trying to obtain is to by a lessening of appeal rights in those complex cases cut some of the delays that we have discussed. There is a that involve human rights issues or constitutional principles, consensus across the spectrum that that should be done, and that the inadequate handling of judicial reviews by from those who want to see fair administration and an untested tribunal risks increasing the work load of justice for asylum seekers through to those who do not the supervising court, the Court of Appeal, and reducing want any, if I may put it that way. Because the fresh supervision at the Home Office. claims category is the most significant class, although Those are the issues that the Minister seeks to address, not the majority, I can support the compromise that has and he is aware that there is widespread agreement in been proposed, and at the same time guarantee access this House and in another place that many cases from to the Court of Appeal on a reasonable basis. the immigration and asylum courts could be transferred The test would allow judges to refuse permission to satisfactorily to the new upper tribunal. We all agree cases where there was no important point of principle, that it would be an effective way of reducing the pressure as I said. The write-round with examples that the hon. on the administrative courts. He will be aware also that Gentleman has asked for is a helpful suggestion, because the Home Affairs Committee looked at the issue and it will show hon. Members in this place and in the other did not object in principle to the upper tribunal considering place our intent. cases that were neither highly significant nor complex. The Government amendments represent the discussions That is the balance that he needs to strike. that we have had, and I hope they are sufficient to I have two specific points to make. First, Liberty address Members’ concerns about which judicial reviews made the point that should transfer, and when. Although I am disappointed “removing the exception before assessing the performance and that we have not been able to go further, I believe this is capacity of the newly established Tribunal is dangerously premature.” a sensible way forward. The Minister has sought to address that, but I hope that Judicial review applications represent the biggest he will again reassure the House that there is no intention significant class of case not just in immigration hearings, of moving too quickly to the new system, because, as but in the higher courts, I am advised. Our constituents Liberty argues: will not understand why 4,600-plus can be made and, in layperson’s terms, clog up the higher courts, and that “More frequently than in other spheres decisions regarding 85 per cent. of those can end up being refused, when immigration and asylum applications engage fundamental rights.” access to a judicial review application can be made in Secondly, the Minister yet again brought up the point the upper tribunal and heard by an immigration judge that 85 per cent. of judicial review applications fail, and with the relevant expertise. There is a common-sense the clear implication was that a large number are in case for the measure, and it provides the guarantee of some way frivolous, which is why they fail. He will be access to justice that hon. Members on the Government aware of his correspondence with the Immigration Law and Opposition Benches have sought, so I ask the Practitioners Association, which disputes the factual House to support the Government motion. basis of that point. In a letter to the Minister last month, the acting chair of ILPA said: 7pm “Our experience is that many judicial reviews are not progressed because the decision that is being challenged (a decision of the Damian Green: I thank the Minister for his warm and UK Border Agency) is withdrawn or agreed to be reconsidered. entirely justified tribute to Lord Kingsland, who died so In other words, many judicial reviews do not proceed because the suddenly and tragically at the weekend. His work on claimant has succeeded in his or her challenge to the lawfulness of this legislation will serve as an exemplar for much of the the decision without requiring the Court to consider the matter very good work that he did in Parliament and elsewhere. further.” It showed his concern that the legal system should If ILPA is right, the gloss that the Minister puts on provide justice and that the legislation that we pass the 85 per cent. figure is not right. It suggests that through both Houses should promote justice. The Minister claimants are overwhelmingly in the wrong and have to has taken on many of the arguments that Lord Kingsland give up because they cannot justify their case. ILPA employed, and that is a fine mark in his memory. I makes the point that the opposite is true: often, the acknowledge that fact, and that the Government’s new claimant’s case is proved and they do not have to go clause bears the imprint of his arguments. through the whole judicial process. This is the ideal 213 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 214 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] opportunity for the Minister to address what seems to though they have remarkably little prospect of success be a factual point. Where does the balance lie in that and do not even try to argue a point of law. I am afraid 85 per cent. figure? that that is about lawyers making money from clients in With those caveats, I am delighted that the Minister a completely unjustifiable way by putting forward a has recognised that strong arguments were advanced case that they must know has very little chance of not only in another place but in Committee, that he has success. recognised those concerns, and that he has tried to deal If section 13 of the 2007 Act is brought into play, with them in new clause 8. By and large, it represents an allowing the Lord Chancellor to add restrictions, what attempt to acknowledge the strength of those arguments, is then suggested is that there will be an extra condition— and I welcome the Government’s change of mind. that an appeal would have to raise some further compelling reason or point of principle or practice. If immigration Mr. Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow) (Lab): I speak mainly and nationality judicial reviews are to be transferred to new clause 6 and to Government amendment 41, from the High Court to the upper tribunal, I assume which will remove clause 54. Some of the Minister’s that those restrictions could also apply there in terms of opening comments were very welcome, as were his judicial reviews that were decided on by the upper reassurances about the safeguards that will be put in tribunal. If this change goes ahead, I would like to be place. If he did as he suggested and put into writing clear about whether it will mean not only that there is a something that everyone could see, with examples of transfer of judicial reviews to the upper tribunal, but how he expected the safeguards to operate, that would that the extra hurdle will be in place, so that we do not be helpful. He has, none the less, certainly provided me simply say that a case is arguably wrong in law or has a with considerable reassurance about how the system reasonable prospect of success, but also that it must might operate. involve some further compelling reason or point of I still have a few concerns, however. The hon. Member principle. It would concern me if we were to end up with for Ashford (Damian Green) raised the first concern, that extra condition. which is about the timing of the changes. As recently as My final point concerns what the Minister said about 2007, the Government accepted that the power to allow fresh claims. I know from the debates in the House of for the transfer of applications for judicial review in Lords that the judiciary believe that there is no problem immigration and nationality cases would be expressly with transferring across fresh claims. They pointed out excluded because of their complexity and sensitivity. that only a very small proportion of applications for During the passage of what became the Tribunals, judicial review that are made as fresh claims get anywhere. Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, the Minister in the Of the 900 or 1,000 cases in 2008 that the Minister Lords said on Report that before introducing any legislation mentioned, only a very small number were found to to allow the transfer of judicial review applications in merit a substantive hearing. In the vast majority of asylum and immigration cases, the Government wanted applications that were argued as a fresh claim, the to see how the new tribunal regime would work. But we Court of Appeal decided that they did not deserve a have not seen how the system works, and the introduction substantive hearing. The judiciary obviously believe of the Bill before us—with clause 54—took place more that they could be transferred, as a class, to the upper or less simultaneously with the opening for business of tribunal, and that would not raise any injustice. That the upper tribunal in the tribunal system. We have not still worries me a little bit. Although only a small had the chance to see properly how the system works number of the applications that are regarded as fresh before agreeing to the transfer. I therefore hope that the claims lead to substantive hearings, I suspect that they Minister will indicate his thoughts on the possible timing are cases that raise important points, and it is those of a transfer of responsibilities, because we would not cases that one wants to be sure will be heard by High want it to happen prematurely—before the new tribunal Court judges. At the moment, there is no guarantee that system had bedded in and was capable of dealing with a High Court judge will be involved in hearing a case in the undoubtedly considerable work load. the upper tribunal. Some High Court judges would be We have heard that we currently deal with a few involved with the tribunal, but would they necessarily thousand judicial review applications. If the bulk of be involved in these cases? that work load is to go to the upper tribunal, we need to be satisfied that it is functioning properly and capable of taking it on. Otherwise, we will just be shifting a 7.15 pm blockage from one part of the system to another—from In view of what the Minister said, I am not inclined the courts to the upper tribunal—which would not to pursue new clause 6 to a Division, but I hope that he achieve a great deal. will follow through on the reassurances that he gave us. New clause 6 was intended to prevent the Lord I also hope that in winding up he can say a little more Chancellor from introducing a restriction on the right about when he intends to bring in the changes. We need of appeal to the Court of Appeal on the immigration to be satisfied that the small number of fresh claims that and nationality law decisions of the upper tribunal. At will now not end up in the Court of Appeal will be dealt the moment, the Court of Appeal will hear appeals with by senior judges—High Court judges, if at all from the asylum and immigration tribunal where the possible. court considers that the tribunal’s decision is arguably wrong in law or where the appeal appears to have a Paul Rowen: I, too, pay tribute to Lord Kingsland for reasonable prospect of success. Those are the hurdles his work in the other place. We are seeing in tonight’s that have to be jumped in order to get a case into the debates the results of much of that work. Court of Appeal. I am sure that all of us who deal with I welcome the Government’s change of heart on immigration and asylum casework will have seen many aspects of this part of the Bill. I agree with much applications for judicial review put in that look as of what the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) 215 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 216 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Paul Rowen] If one were to go out in my constituency and talk about new clause 8, there would be a view that the said about the changes that have been announced. We appeal system does not serve the interests of my constituents. are concerned about a new tribunal that is only just I imagine that the case may well be the same in the operational and with no track record taking on the bulk Minister’s constituency. There is a view out there that of all judicial review cases to do with immigration and we are in a world of endless appeals. We in this place asylum. Can the Minister ensure that we get a report on know that that is not the case, but it is the perception, the upper tribunal’s first year of operation, say, before and we are here to reflect the concerns of our constituents. any new cases are transferred to it? There are still I am pleased that we are moving towards a system concerns about how it is going to operate, and a there that accelerates the whole process of identifying whether will need to be a learning curve. I accept, with the someone has the right to remain here and, if we decide caveats that have been given, that the only immigration that they do not, accelerates the process of their removal. and asylum cases that will be dealt with are fresh claims. If our immigration system is to secure the support of I hope that the Minister can assure us that we will not, the majority, it has to be seen to reflect their concerns at some later stage, without necessarily having recourse and aspirations. Our constituents are fair-minded people, to this House, see the scope of that decision widened. and they want the law to contain certain safeguards so We all want to ensure that where there is a case that can that if a wrong decision is made in the early part of the be answered, people have recourse to the courts to seek process, it can be overturned. What they do not want is justice. The hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) a system that frustrates and thwarts their desire to referred to Liberty’s point—many of these cases involve ensure that those who have a right to remain in this human rights issues—and it is a fundamental principle country are allowed to remain, but that those who have of British law that people have access to the courts no right to remain are removed quickly and humanely when their human rights are threatened. to the place from which they came here. As the hon. Member for Walthamstow said, a very small minority of the 900-odd fresh claims that go to Mr. Woolas: I agree with the hon. Member for judicial review will then proceed further. How does the Broxbourne (Mr. Walker) on his last point. The issue is Minister envisage that in the minority of fresh claims more difficult in the area of immigration and asylum, cases that may be dealt with by the upper tribunal, because while appeals are being awaited and the process where the person feels that they have not had their case is going on, in the real world people’s circumstances dealt with by a senior judge, there will be proper recourse change. They get married, have babies, change their to the Court of Appeal so that the decision can be location and so on. That means that the judicial system appealed? I am grateful to him for his assurance that he is asked to cope with a moving scenario. From the will explain how the safeguards in the new provisions taxpayer’s point of view, it is important that we have as will operate. There will not be a problem in the bulk of efficient a system as possible, commensurate with access cases. We already know—this is why the judiciary want to fair justice. to see a change—that most applications for judicial Three issues have been raised in response to the review in fresh claim cases are dismissed. However, we amendments, and I wish to give the assurances that the need an assurance that the 3 or 4 per cent. of cases each House is looking for. I turn first to the question of year in which there is a genuine issue at stake will be timing, raised by the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian dealt with properly. Green) and my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow The hon. Member for Ashford mentioned the point (Mr. Gerrard), which is addressed by the amendments. that the chairman of the Immigration Law Practitioners We are now proposing that only fresh claim judicial Association had made about the 85 per cent. figure. reviews can be transferred as a class, and that will not Certainly my experience is that when there is a solid happen until the asylum and immigration tribunal has case against a decision—usually when the UK Border transferred to the first tier and upper tier. Our expectation, Agency has not examined the information in front of it although it is not down to us, is that that will take place properly—UKBA’s case collapses when judicial review about February next year, but the transfer of the AIT is applied for. I do not want there to be a lack of proper will require an affirmative resolution approved by both recourse for someone affected to raise their points when Houses. Before making an order to allow transfer, the UKBA has not dealt with information properly. Lord Chief Justice will need to take account of the Given the assurances that we have received from the capacity in the upper tribunal. The decision to ask for Minister and the promise of further information, we the order will be a matter for him, and it will also shall not press our amendments. We believe that the require the approval of the Lord Chancellor. That is Government have listened to the debates both here and our expectation of the timing, but it depends on the in the upper place. Given the safeguards that we have capacity being available. asked for, we feel that we can live with the Government amendments and new clause 8. Mr. Gerrard: That is very helpful, but may we also have an assurance about what information would come Mr. Walker: In bringing forward new clause 8, the to the House before we were asked to make that order? Minister poses serious questions. Whose interests does the immigration appeal system serve? We have identified Mr. Woolas: I assume that my hon. Friend means that it certainly serves the interests of lawyers, some of information about the capacity of the tribunal service. I whom are not too reputable. We have identified that it would make it my business to ensure that the explanatory sometimes serves the interests of those who bring appeals memorandum, which I understand would be required, through lawyers, the immigrants who face removal from provided information on that capacity and on the points this country. that had been made about the process. 217 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 218 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Secondly, my hon. Friend made a specific point about burden on the higher courts. Once the upper tribunal section 13(6) of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement has established its ability to deal efficiently and effectively Act 2007. That section will not apply to judicial reviews. with the judicial reviews of fresh claims—and the process It will apply only if an appeal before the upper tribunal that I described in response to my hon. Friend the comes from a decision of the first-tier tribunal—if the Member for Walthamstow has been fulfilled—the House case is on its way up, as it were. A judicial review may be persuaded that we should be able to deal with decision is not a first-tier decision, so the section 13(6) other cases, too. However, that is a discussion for another test would not apply. My hon. Friend sought that day and would require another Bill. It is the Government’s important point of clarification. view that that is desirable, but we must pass the tests Thirdly, my hon. Friend asked whether High Court first. I hope that that gives the hon. Member for Rochdale judges should hear important cases in the upper tribunal. the reassurance that he seeks. That will be a matter for judicial allocation, but the I think that we have a sensible understanding, so I am intention of having High Court judges in the upper happy to recommend new clause 8. tribunal is that they should deal with important cases. Question put and agreed to. The right to make a challenge, about which the hon. New clause 8 accordingly read a Second time, and Member for Ashford asked an important question, will added to the Bill. still exist. One does not need the High Court process for that, because there will be the opportunity for a challenge in the upper tribunal or, critically, in the Court of New Clause 1 Appeal. The proposals will cut out an unnecessary stage. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral, West ENTITLEMENT TO BRITISH CITIZENSHIP BY CERTAIN (Stephen Hesford), whose expertise in this matter is well CITIZENS OF THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND known, has pointed out, they will help the good guys, if ‘(1) After section 31 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (c.61) I can put it that way. insert— The hon. Member for Ashford made an important “31A Entitlement to British citizenship by certain citizens point about that 85 per cent. figure and the letter from of the Republic of Ireland ILPA. As I have said, 85 per cent. of applications for (1) If a person born in the Republic of Ireland on or after judicial review are unsuccessful. It is true that some 1 January 1949 gives notice in writing to the Secretary of State cases are withdrawn because UKBA has reconsidered claiming to remain a British subject on either or both of the its decision, sometimes after representations made by following grounds, namely— hon. Members and sometimes as a result of the (a) that he is or has been in Crown Service under the re-examination of a decision. However, the number of government of the United Kingdom; and cases withdrawn because the UK Border Agency has (b) that he has associations by way of descent, residence or reversed its decision is small. Unfortunately, I do not otherwise with the United Kingdom or with any British overseas territory. have the figures available this evening, but I will write to the hon. Gentleman with them. Even if I conceded that he shall as from that time be a British subject by virtue of this the numbers were significant—I do not—that is an subsection. argument for the experts’ tribunal, or upper tier, dealing (2) A person who is a British subject by virtue of with the requests under the new system, rather than the subsection (1) shall be deemed to have remained a British subject from the date of his birth to the time when he became a British existing position, whereby delay, as my hon. Friend the subject by virtue of that subsection.”.’.—(Andrew Mackinlay.) Member for Wirral, West has said, is almost built into Brought up, and read the First time. the system, as we clog up the higher courts. Andrew Mackinlay: I beg to move, That the clause be 7.30 pm read a Second time. The hon. Member for Ashford asked whether judicial Mr. Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient reviews by inexperienced upper tribunals would increase to discuss the following: new clause 3—Amendment of the work load in the Court of Appeal, because that the immigration rules relating to Gurkhas— access route will still exist. My previous point partly answers that, but it is also relevant to point out that the ‘(1) The Immigration Rules, as laid before Parliament under section 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77), are amended as Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 limits the follows. judiciary in upper tribunals who can deal with judicial reviews to High Court judges, Court of Appeal judges (2) In Rule 276F (requirements for indefinite leave to enter the United Kingdom as a Gurkha discharged from the British Army) or other judges agreed between the Lord Chief Justice omit paragraphs (ii) and (iii). and the senior president. We are therefore confident that the quality of judges in the upper tier will be the (3) In Rule 276I (requirements for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom as a Gurkha discharged from the British best available. Again, part of our purpose is to get a Army) omit paragraphs (ii) and (iii). more efficient system, to answer the point that the hon. (4) Gurkhas discharged from the British Army prior to 1997 Member for Broxbourne made. shall have parity with Commonwealth servicemen in terms of the I thank the hon. Member for Rochdale (Paul Rowen) requirements for indefinite leave to enter and remain in the for his comments. Let me be clear that the effect of new United Kingdom.’. clause 8 is that the Lord Chief Justice, with the agreement New clause 5—Consequences of failure to fulfil of the Lord Chancellor, will be able to order the transfer requirements for naturalisation— of judicial review cases that deal with fresh claims to the ‘Failure to satisfy the requirements set out in Schedule 1 to the upper tribunal. Transfer of other cases, either on a British Nationality Act 1981 (c. 61) shall not exclude the case-by-case basis or on a class of case basis, will not be possibility of the grant of a further period of probationary possible. It will go some way towards alleviating the citizenship, or other immigration leave.’. 219 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 220 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Deputy Speaker] Andrew Mackinlay: I will not detain the House long, but we have an opportunity, which the House will New clause 7—Exemptions to the application of probably not have again for some years, to right a Part 2— wrong, provide parity of treatment for people who are ‘Nothing in this Part shall affect an application for indefinite Irish, whether they deem themselves to be from Ulster—in leave to remain in the United Kingdom or for British citizenship which there are nine counties, not only six—or elsewhere if it— and allow them to identify with their Britishness. (a) has been submitted at any time in the 12 months after Why do I say “parity of treatment”? Ever since the the commencement of this Part; or concept of Irish citizenship was realised, it has been (b) is made prior to the commencement of this Part.’. possible for people born in Northern Ireland to decide Amendment 4, in clause 39, page 30, line 6, after first to take up Irish citizenship and have an Irish passport, ‘the’, insert ‘average’. or opt for United Kingdom citizenship. Increasingly, Amendment 5, page 30, line 10, after ‘period’, insert many opt for both. It is a matter of where they feel most comfortable and how they designate themselves. That ‘, save that periods during which A was in the United Kingdom has been position since Irish citizenship came about, with leave other than that conferring qualifying immigration status shall be disregarded for the purpose of considering and it is has been reinforced by the successful initiatives whether A had qualifying immigration status for the whole of Prime Minister Blair and Taoiseach Ahern, and their period’. predecessors, John Major and the Taoiseach who was Amendment 1, page 30, line 13, leave out from TD for Roscommon—his name will come to me in a ‘abode’ to end of line 14 and insert moment. We had the Belfast agreement, the Good Friday agreement and the St. Andrews agreement, which ‘, or a permanent EEA entitlement or refugee status or put on an institutional basis the idea that people in humanitarian protection;’. Northern Ireland should be able to decide how they Amendment 40, page 31, line 17, at end insert— designate themselves. ‘(10A) After sub-paragraph (5) (inserted by subsection (10) However, the same does not happen for a relatively above) insert— small minority, though not an insignificant number of (6) The Secretary of State shall exercise his discretion under people, who were born in the Irish Republic after the sub-paragraph (ba) above in favour of individuals recognised as Oireachtas passed the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, having a refugee status in the UK, so as to treat time spent awaiting the outcome of their asylum claim as time spent with a which came into force on 18 April 1949. People born in qualifying immigration status, unless there are exceptional the Republic of Ireland after that cannot designate reasons why he should not.”’. themselves British. That is unfair, wrong and inconsistent Amendment 7, in clause 40, page 32, line 18, after with the practice for people who are born in Northern first ‘the’, insert ‘average’. Ireland. I therefore believe that we should ensure parity of treatment. Amendment 2, in clause 41, page 35, line 21, at end insert— Sammy Wilson: Does the hon. Gentleman agree that ‘(6) In the case of an applicant with refugee status or his point is made even more poignant by the fact that humanitarian protection— many people who live in the Irish Republic have brothers, (a) the number of years in the period is 5; and sisters and other family members who have settled in (b) the activity condition is waived.’. Northern Ireland? The idea of being British, Irish or Amendment 22, page 35, line 21, at end insert— having joint citizenship is not therefore unusual for them. ‘(6) Such prescribed activities may not include those activities that could be considered in the interests of a single political party.’. Andrew Mackinlay: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely Amendment 23, page 36, line 14, at end insert— correct, but there is more to it than that. Let me explain my own position. I was born on 24 April 1949. Many of ‘(5A) None of the conditions in section 41(1) shall apply to anyone who entered the United Kingdom under the Highly the children with whom I went to school were born after Skilled Migrants Programme more than four years before the the relevant date and emigrated with their mum and date of commencement appointed by the Secretary of State for dad to Greater London. Today, they would probably Part 2.’. deem themselves Londoners—their accent, tradition, Amendment 8, in clause 49, page 43, line 42, at and culture, background and schooling is London—yet they insert— cannot opt to be British under the current position because they were born in Dublin, Donegal or Kerry. ‘(10) The following periods of absence from the labour market shall be disregarded for the purposes of establishing whether an There are therefore people in Northern Ireland, but also applicant is or has been in “continuous employment”— in Greater London and some of the other great conurbations, to which there was a lot of post-war Irish (a) periods of involuntary unemployment duly recorded by an employment agency or office lasting no more immigration, who were born in the Republic after 18 April than six months, 1949, but cannot designate themselves British. (b) all authorised employment absences (whether expressly We are all proud of the fact the United Kingdom or by custom) including maternity and paternity armed forces today include a significant tranche of leave, illness, temporary cessations of work and recruits from the Irish Republic, particularly though sabbaticals, and not exclusively in the Irish Guards. Those young men (c) other periods of unemployment in circumstances serve in the United Kingdom armed forces and contribute where they have not resulted in the cancellation or a great deal. Many have made the ultimate sacrifice and refusal of immigration leave.’. distinguished themselves by their gallantry, yet they are Government amendment 17. prevented from being British. 221 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 222 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] I am not very up on contemporary music, but there Irish Republic can apply and get an Irish passport, but are some distinguished show-business people, for example, those who were born in the Irish Republic and have Geldof, who were born after 1949, whose United Kingdom lived 40, 50 or 60 years in the United Kingdom cannot honours are prefaced with an explanation that they are get a British passport without going through the honorary. That is a pity and it is also ludicrous. Somebody complicated procedure of applying for nationality? born before 1949 would be the real thing—an OBE or a knight and so on. Andrew Mackinlay: The hon. Gentleman is absolutely We need to rationalise the position. New clause 1 is in correct. I recall his private Member’s Bill, and I hope the spirit of all that has happened in bringing communities that if we cannot succeed tonight, at least the Government together and in recognising parity of esteem. Perhaps will have an open mind if he or others introduce a the Minister’s brief will state that it would create precedents, comparable private Member’s Bill to remedy this wrong. but it would not. Our relationship with Ireland is sui It is a source of irritation, and the remedy is not rocket generis—unique. That was reflected by Parliament in science; it is merely providing parity of treatment. 1949, when it passed the Ireland Act. In the face of the I am conscious of the fact that the hon. Gentleman’s Republic’s declaration in the Oireachtas’s 1948 Act—it constituency abuts Donegal, where there are many folk unilaterally, but correctly decided that it wanted to be a who are very proud of their United Kingdom traditions. republic—Clem Attlee’s Government passed the Ireland This very weekend people paraded in Donegal in the Act 1949, which stated that people from Ireland would Irish Republic, commemorating the battle of the Boyne have total parity of treatment in the franchise and so and celebrating their membership of the Orange Order. on. Many people have served in the House who are Irish I am not a member of that order—I think I would be citizens. disqualified from being a member—but I am very proud of the fact that that tradition is maintained in Donegal, Emily Thornberry (Islington, South and Finsbury) where there are many people who are keen to hold on to (Lab) rose— their United Kingdom associations. We should meet that need and demand. Andrew Mackinlay: I suspect that we will hear from I promised the House that I would not labour the somebody who could claim Irish citizenship. point. The hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr. Cox) said that I have drawn his Emily Thornberry: I am going to do exactly that. I am attention to a topic of which he was unaware before. an Irish passport holder, although I come from a That is part of the problem. The Home Office, and now background of dual heritage. I am proud of that, and I the Ministry of Justice, have never really understood am proud to be a Member of this House. the complicated, but unique and extremely interesting, Andrew Mackinlay: And I am very proud to have my constitutional relationship between, and shared history hon. Friend as a colleague in the House, and I also hope of, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern that she sees my point. She has decided that she wants Ireland and the Irish Republic. Perhaps they should to hold an Irish passport and she is extremely proud of have understood it, however, because, after all, we are it, and she may be one of those people—including told that this legislation has emerged from a review by many people in the armed forces drawn from Northern one of our former Attorneys-General. He was supposed Ireland—who holds passports of both the United Kingdom to do an in-depth job, but this topic obviously never and Ireland. crossed his desk; it was not on the radar screen. My case is that it should have been, because many of our electors Mr. Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con): would be beneficiaries from this change. To provide it The hon. Gentleman is making a very powerful case on would be in the spirit of giving parity of treatment. an issue I was not aware of before he brought it to the I ask the Minister either to accept my new clause 1, or attention of the House, and I am by no means at least to indicate—and not just for form—that its unsympathetic to it. I wonder if the hon. Gentleman provisions might be taken on board if there is an early can help me, however: what is to stop a person in the legislative opportunity to do so. That would be most position he is delineating from applying for British welcome by a number of people living in England, citizenship in the usual way? Scotland and Wales, as well as folk in Northern Ireland, and particularly by people who were born in the Irish Andrew Mackinlay: Well, the usual way is long, contorted, Republic and who are resident there but who are very expensive and downright irritating, and I just think that proud of their historic traditions, through service in the people born in Ireland are a one-off case. The Irish armed forces or some other connection, which this Republic citizenship laws allow people to claim citizenship House should recognise now. if they have one grandparent who was born in Ireland—in the 32 counties—before 1949. Its citizenship laws are 7.45 pm generous, therefore; all I am seeking is parity of treatment for folk born in the Republic after 1949 who want to Damian Green: I am tempted to go down the route set claim United Kingdom citizenship. by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), but I will resist that temptation and leave the Minister Mr. Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP): I to respond to his points, because there are many very am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing important amendments and new clauses in this group. I this issue and new clause before the House. He will want to address three of them—and to do so fairly recall that I attempted to push through a private Member’s briefly, as there are further important groups to come. Bill along similar lines a couple of years ago. Is the In the current group, Government amendment 17 is difference he describes not even worse, in that some key. The Minister needs to be able to answer the question people in Northern Ireland who have never lived in the whether it gives satisfactory treatment to all those who 223 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 224 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Damian Green] out, our colleagues in another place tabled an amendment and, again, the Government were defeated. I hope that were affected over the past few years by the High Court the Minister might recognise that he has not just lost rulings, which the Government have lost, on the matter the court case and a vote, but he has also lost the of retrospection, and in particular satisfy the House argument; I hope we will hear from him on that. The that he is being fair to those who have not yet applied key point is the date of commencement. That will for indefinite leave to remain on their route to citizenship, establish whether there are remaining elements of because that is what a lot of the amendment is about. retrospection in the Government’s system. I will be It is worth while setting out the Conservatives’ attitude interested to hear the Minister tell us when he proposes to citizenship in principle. We believe that UK citizenship to apply the new rules. is a privilege, not a right. Anyone who is here on One other amendment that I should speak to is our temporary leave to remain should not assume that that amendment 22, which concerns the activity condition. gives them the right to remain here permanently or to The Bill introduces an activity condition for qualifying become a British citizen. However, we need to be fair for citizenship, but it is not clear what could be covered and reasonable. We also need to recognise that our by it—it is not given, but left to be clarified in secondary country is competing with others around the world for legislation. There are a number of legitimate concerns highly skilled migrants who will benefit our economy—we to be expressed about what will be covered by that all agree that Britain benefits from highly skilled migrants. condition. We have seen some introductory documents The Government’s previous decision to change the from the Government, and there are a number of areas rules so that highly skilled migrants who are already where many of us would have great concern about what here and who want to stay are now disqualified from might be involved. The proposals threaten to be both doing so is both unfair and wrong-headed. It is unfair expensive and bureaucratic. Also, the broad term “activity” because those people have made a commitment to this does not seem to be restricted to volunteering, which country but are having that flung back in their faces, was the Home Office’s original intention. and it is wrong-headed because it sends a signal to highly skilled people around the world that Britain is an Mr. Humfrey Malins (Woking) (Con): My hon. Friend unreliable place. is absolutely right. I have read all the debates from the It is an indictment of the current Government that other place, and there is a lack of clarity about what is precisely the people whom we should be encouraging involved in terms of fairness and so on. It would and supporting to come to this country are disillusioned therefore help if at some stage the Minister could tell us by their efforts. As the Minister is aware, the Conservatives a little more about that. have consistently opposed the retrospective elements of the changes to the rules affecting highly skilled migrants. Damian Green: Indeed. I completely agree with my In 2006, his predecessor attempted to change the rules hon. Friend. Genuine concerns arise about the type of regarding indefinite leave to remain, citing the introduction activities that would count. There is a potential burden of the points-based system. At the time, I helped deliver on the voluntary sector, and particularly on small charities. a petition to the then Prime Minister with 4,000 signatures There could be huge demands for form-filling, and we of those opposing the rule change. Since those changes understand that referees for applicants may even be came into force, the highly skilled migrants programme fined. The Minister is proposing a national checking forum has successfully challenged the Home Office in service, which would be a huge extra burden on local the courts. That was a three-year battle with massive authorities, but it is not at all clear what will happen to and unnecessary attendant legal costs, but, in the end, the money from the migration impacts fund to offset the Home Office lost in the courts. some of those costs on local authorities. Altogether, the House is being asked to buy a pig in a poke with the Chris Huhne: The hon. Gentleman says his party has current proposals. consistently opposed these retrospective provisions, and The proposal that we are making in our amendment 22, we were very happy in the other place to support his almost as an illustration, is to prevent the prescribed party’s noble Lords who tabled an amendment that activities that would count as activity—that is, those would have removed those retrospective elements. Why activities that would allow a two-year reduction in the has he now gone back on that in attempting to restrict time before someone was eligible to become a British the proposed change to the highly skilled migrant citizenship—from including programme? “activities that could be considered in the interests of a single Damian Green: I had hoped that the hon. Gentleman political party.” was listening to my speech, in which I made the point At a time when the repute of politics is not particularly that highly skilled migrants are particularly valuable to high, I shudder at the prospect, which is possible under this country, and as he will be aware, the court case was the current legislation, of somebody turning up at a specifically about those migrants. Those are the people Member of Parliament’s surgery and being told, “If in the frame, as it were, in terms of the Government’s you want to become a British citizen more quickly, I unfairness. know what you can do—go out and deliver these leaflets for me.” That would be absolutely appalling. It would Chris Huhne rose— be borderline corrupt if that were allowed by the legislation, and it would do democratic politics in this country no Damian Green: I think we should make progress. good either. That is an extremely important illustration The Government have not learned from this and have of one of the things about the Bill that the Government tried to introduce in the Bill retrospective changes to the have still got wrong, and we intend to test the mood of citizenship rules. As the hon. Gentleman has just pointed the House on that. 225 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 226 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] My final point is about new clause 3. I always hesitate The other issue that concerns the TUC and a number to talk about the Gurkhas in front of the Minister, who of other unions is the scope for exploitation of those has had some bruising experiences in connection with who are here as migrant workers. If a migrant worker is the Gurkhas over the past few months. However, it is in an abusive employment situation, but is frightened important that on every occasion the House should that giving up that job may lead to their removal from check on the progress of the Government’s promises, the UK, that makes it much more difficult for them to which were extracted from them by their defeat in this extricate themselves from that exploitative situation. House on the Gurkhas. This debate gives another That is particularly important for women and disabled opportunity to do that, and new clause 3 is an admirable people. We know that exploitation goes on in the labour way of providing it. market and that the most disadvantaged, such as migrants, are often its victims. I therefore hope that the Minister Mr. Gerrard: I shall address my remarks mainly to can give us some reassurances about how the system new clause 5 and amendment 8, which stand in my will operate. He said something in Committee about name, and then say a brief word about amendment 17. people being able to work for up to 60 days when they Let me start with new clause 5 and what happens if were looking for new employment, but again the issue is someone fails to fulfil the requirements for naturalisation. one of certainty. If someone in the middle of their term What happens to somebody who is in the probationary of employment does not know with clarity what the stage of citizenship but then, for whatever reason, does consequence will be of either a period of unemployment not fulfil the criteria for citizenship? There may be cases or trying to change their employer if there is abuse, that where somebody decides not to go through the expense will leave them in a difficult situation. of making an application because they know there is a My final point is about Government amendment 17. condition they cannot fulfil. There will also undoubtedly This amendment is an improvement on what was suggested be cases where people’s applications are refused because before, because it gives some protection to people who they do not fulfil some of the relevant requirements and are in this country. It clearly protects those with indefinite discretionary power has not been exercised in their leave when the new procedures commence, as well as favour. However, it is very unclear from the discussions those who have applied for indefinite leave before the on the Bill so far just what the consequences of that commencement date. would be. It has already been pointed out that a key factor will For instance, in relation to the continuous employment be the commencement date. I have heard various dates requirement, the earned citizenship team has told some mentioned, including, most recently, the summer of organisations outside this place that a failure to comply 2011, as opposed to the original proposal of late 2010. with the employment requirements would lead to removal. This will be important, given the retrospective nature of However, it has been suggested in other discussions the legislation. If we know the commencement date, we about various aspects of the Bill that a failure to meet a will have a fairly clear idea who might be affected by the requirement might just lead to the resetting of the clock provisions. For example, someone who is here on a on probationary citizenship to zero, to a further period marriage visa that is valid for two years might expect to of probationary citizenship or even to the option to get indefinite leave to remain here towards the end of switch to a different category, such as the points-based that two-year period. If we knew that the commencement system. date was going to be in the summer of 2011, we would There is an issue if people do not know where they know that anyone who was already here on a two-year stand if, for some reason, they cannot fulfil the requirements. marriage visa would be in a position to get indefinite It is important that we should know as clearly as leave before the new provisions came into play. possible what the consequences of that failure might be. It would therefore be helpful if the Minister could give 8pm us some clarity about that, although I realise that it will Certainty will be important in this context. We have not be easy because there are so many different requirements heard the arguments about what happened to the highly that someone might not fulfil. skilled migrants programme. The problems arose because The second issue that I want to address is that of of the retrospective nature of the programme, and continuous employment, which is dealt with by because people who had come here expecting that they amendment 8, which stands in my name. Amendment 8 would be able to apply for indefinite leave after four tries to define continuous employment. Again, we are years were suddenly told that the requirement had talking about clarity. The Bill as it stands uses the term changed to five years. That led to the High Court case “continuous employment”, but does not define it. If a that the Home Office lost. None of us wants to see a consequence of not fulfilling the relevant requirement is return to the High Court. that someone could be removed, that could be quite I wondered whether it might be possible to table an serious. Amendment 8 tries to define “continuous amendment to Government amendment 17 in order to employment” in a way that corresponds roughly with introduce more certainty, but that might result in our the points-based system. At the moment, a tier 2 worker picking and choosing in a way that the Conservative who has leave lasting under six months will not lose amendment does when it singles out the highly skilled their status when their employment is terminated, and migrant programme. I understand the arguments that there are more generous provisions for tier 1 workers. the hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) was However, what happens if there is a break in employment, making on that, but those are not the only people who which might in no way be the responsibility of the would be affected, and they are not the only ones who person concerned? The employer for whom they are need to be safeguarded from retrospection. working might go bankrupt, which would mean they My reading of the condition in amendment 17 which would have to try to find another job under the terms of states that a commencement order “must include”provisions their work permit. about various dates is that that would not preclude the 227 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 228 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] commencement order from including other provisions. cases resolved. The delay in dealing with their cases is The way seems to have been left open for the order to not their fault; it is the Government’s fault, and the include other provisions that could provide other protections Government should make concessions to rectify this, if necessary. That is an important point that I hope the rather than penalising them for problems of the Minister will address. I hope that he will confirm that Government’s own making. my interpretation is correct. If it is, and if a commencement date might still be a little time off, we could have a Keith Vaz (Leicester, East) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman serious discussion in the interim about exactly what give way? provisions ought to be included, rather than trying to write them all into the Bill now and, almost inevitably, Chris Huhne: I will happily give way to the right hon. finding that we had left out a particular class of people Gentleman. who need protection against retrospection. I hope the Minister will give us some assurances on Hon. Members: No! He has not been here for the that last point, and on the points that I have raised in debate. relation to new clause 5 and amendment 8. I am not seeking to press the new clause or the amendment to a Keith Vaz: I have been following the debate on the vote, but I would like some assurances about the way monitor. the new citizenship provisions will operate. There is real Today the Home Secretary gave evidence to the Select concern outside this place about the delays that they Committee. Last week, the head of the immigration might introduce, about the length of time that people and nationality directorate did so. It costs £650 million might have to wait before they can acquire their citizenship, for the Government to service the backlog of immigration and about the uncertainty involved. The uncertainty cases. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that it would be over how the system will operate probably concerns in the interests of all concerned if that backlog could be people more than anything else. There is nothing worse cleared so that all these cases could be processed quickly? than having a system that is full of uncertainties about how it will operate. Chris Huhne: I entirely agree with the Chairman of Chris Huhne: I am pleased to follow the hon. Member the Home Affairs Select Committee. I know that he has for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), and to support made this issue an important cause, and I support and amendment 8 for the reasons that he has just given. I pay tribute to his stressing this point. am also pleased to speak in the same debate as the hon. Let me turn to issues relating to retrospective application. Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay), who said Our new clause 7 seeks to limit the retrospective application some very sensible things about new clause 1 concerning of part 2 of the Bill. It would protect migrants already citizens of the Republic of Ireland. I know from my on the path to citizenship from having their requirements recent constituency experience attending the Eastleigh for citizenship changed at the last minute. It would give and District Irish Association dinner dance that that a 12-month grace period for any migrant seeking to proposal would affect many people across the country, apply for indefinite leave to remain, after and before the and it deserves support for that reason if no other. commencement of the Bill. Neither the Government’s I want to speak in support of new clauses 3 and 7, nor the Conservatives’ amendments seek to redress the and amendments 4, 5, 1, 40, 7, 2 and 22. Those provisions unfairness and injustice that part 2 will inflict on the all concern the new requirements being imposed by the many people who have embarked on the path towards Government in relation to British citizenship and settlement with the expectation of gaining indefinite naturalisation. The new path that the Government are leave to remain. laying out amends provisions on naturalisation in the Government amendment 17 is an improvement on British Nationality Act 1981. This overhaul is well their previous proposals, but it is too narrow in its intentioned and is broadly something that we can support, application, as it restricts the time period for migrants but it has resulted in certain aspects to which we object to obtain indefinite leave to remain status. The Conservative and which we seek to amend. proposal is just as worrying, as it discriminates in I will start with our two new clauses. New clause 3 favour of those who have entered this country via the aims to enshrine in law the policy changes that the highly skilled migrants programme. It implies that those Government agreed to implement on 21 May with who work in the UK on work permits, or who are regard to Gurkhas who had retired from the British highly skilled but did not enter through the highly army before 1997. The Government have agreed to this skilled migrants programme, have not made as valuable and, as I understand it, have implemented the policy a contribution to the UK, and so are not entitled to a change announced in the Home Secretary’s statement grace period while finishing their citizenship process. of 21 May. The reason that the new clause is still To make matters worse, clause 39, the Lords amendment necessary is that the policy change amends only the that our new clause seeks to replicate, was a Conservative guidance used to implement the immigration rules. amendment proposed by Baroness Hanham. In the Guidance, as we know, is not legally binding. It is Lords debates, more than one Conservative peer spoke subject to the discretion of civil servants who are not vehemently on this subject, recognising the injustice bound to follow it, and it can be amended at the whim inherent in part 2. By collaborating with my Liberal of this or any subsequent Executive. That is simply not Democrat colleagues, the Conservatives managed to good enough. We need something more solid and less defeat the Government on this. One can imagine our transient. shock when, in the Commons Committee stage, we Amendment 40 addresses the issue of asylum seekers discovered that a strange line had been drawn by the and their qualifying period for citizenship. As things Conservatives to separate highly skilled migrants stand, many asylum seekers face long waits to have their from other migrants, giving one group—oddly enough, 229 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 230 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] arguably the wealthier group—preferential treatment. The new clause will effectively extend these provisions Their amendment ignores hard workers, it ignores spouses to those born in the Republic of Ireland after 1 January and it ignores basic human rights. 1949. However, as the Republic effectively ceased to be The morality behind our new clause 7 is simple: there part of the Crown’s Dominions on that date, British needs to be transitional protection for all migrants subject status could not have been acquired by birth already on the path to citizenship. It is unfair to alter there after that date. The new clause would not therefore the rules for those who have already adhered to them by allow those born after 1949 to elect to retain British lengthening the qualification period and throwing in subject status, as they would never have held it in the other provisos such as active citizenship. That is, in first place. principle, what the High Court found on 6 April 2009—that The status of British subject continues to exist in it is unlawful to increase the qualifying period for British nationality legislation as a result of Britain’s indefinite leave to remain from four to five years for historical legacy. However, the only people who hold people who were already in the UK on the highly skilled that status are certain people with a connection to migrants programme. Surely the same logic should apply southern Ireland, or with India and Pakistan. As such, here: fair play means not moving the goalposts in the the numbers holding that status will reduce over time middle of the game. and we do not wish to create a new route to British Let me deal finally with volunteering activity. The subject status. Those Irish nationals who were born rest of our amendments are linked to the provisions for after 1949 and wish to become British citizens can do so active citizenship and continuous employment. While through naturalisation, based on a period of residence the Liberal Democrats do not object to the idea of in the United Kingdom. earned citizenship as a whole, the Government provisions for active citizenship and continuous employment have created more problems than solutions. We have thus 8.15 pm tabled these amendments as an attempt to remedy the We do not believe it would be right for Irish nationals problem. who do not have British subject status to be treated any Mr. Gummer: I wish merely to support the new clause differently from those of other nationalities, including, presented by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew of course, other European economic area nationals, Mackinlay). I believe it proposes a necessary change to who are required to demonstrate an ongoing connection support a fair system with respect to Ireland. I am sorry with the United Kingdom through residence, settlement that our Front Benchers did not support it. We in the and knowledge of English and of life in the United Conservative party have a great deal to live down in our Kingdom. treatment of Ireland, and the new clause provides one way we could do so. Andrew Mackinlay: None of this material that the Mr. Woolas: Let me try to respond to the points Minister is rehearsing contradicts what I said. If he raised. New clause 1 was debated first, so let me explain reads the Official Report tomorrow, he will find that I the situation with that. told him the history. He is now getting full marks for Section 31(3) of the British Nationality Act 1981 getting it correct, having listened to what I said. The currently provides for British subjects born in the Republic issue remains, however, the parity of treatment. The of Ireland before 1949 to make a declaration to retain fact is that in one part of the United Kingdom it is the British subject status they acquired at birth. The possible to opt either way or have both; it is a matter of new clause seeks to extend that provision to those born our relationship with Ireland and the fact that the after 1949. I shall not repeat the historical background people born in the 32 counties of Ireland are unique. It that my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Andrew is not comparable to the European Union, or to Pakistan Mackinlay) has already covered. and India; it is a one-off. As to all this business about naturalisation, it is a gross impertinence that folk have Before 1 January 1949, southern Ireland was part of to go through this long, tortuous and expensive process the Crown’s Dominions. Anyone born in that territory to do what is simply common sense and perfectly just. therefore acquired British subject status at birth. On 18 April 1949, southern Ireland became an independent republic outside the Commonwealth, although for Mr. Woolas: I am sorry that my hon. Friend did not nationality purposes, that change effectively took place listen to what I, in fact, said rather than what he has from 1 January 1949. As such, southern Ireland’s British assumed I was saying. What I said in respect of his new subjects were deemed to have ceased to be British clause, not in relation to the general policy issue, is that subjects on 1 January 1949, when the British Nationality it is not possible to allow those born after 1949 to retain Act 1948 came into force. A person born in southern British subject status as they did not have it. That was Ireland would retain that status automatically only if he my simple and logical point, irrespective of one’s view or she became a citizen of the United Kingdom and on the justice, morality or otherwise of the issue. colonies or a citizen of a newly independent Commonwealth My hon. Friend says that those born after 1949 who country. have emigrated from the Republic of Ireland and come Section 2 of the 1948 Act provided that a citizen of to Britain cannot opt to be British. That is simply not Eire who was a British subject immediately before 1 January the case. He may not like the route, but the fact is that a 1949 could retain that status by making a claim in child born in the Republic who moved to the UK when writing to the Secretary of State under certain conditions. a child—presumably with his or her parents—can naturalise That provision was replaced by section 31(3) of the as a British citizen under section 6(1) of the 1981 Act, British Nationality Act 1981, which allows those born or, if the parent who acquired citizenship was registered in the Republic before 1949 to make a claim in writing as a British citizen when still a child, it can be done to remain a British subject under certain conditions. under section 1(3) or 1(4) of the 1981 Act. 231 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 232 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Mr. Woolas] applies for citizenship, it will be open to that person to apply for permanent residence once he or she has My hon. Friend asks what is to stop a person applying accumulated the right amount of qualifying leave, as set in the usual way, and the answer is nothing. What is also out in clause 41. It will also be open to the Secretary of different is the fact that the Republic of Ireland is also a State to grant further probationary citizenship. What member of the European Union, which has changed will happen to the individual concerned will depend on since 1949, so that represents an important difference. his or her settlement rights—backed up by the European convention—rather than citizenship rights. Sammy Wilson: I think the Minister has missed the Hon. Members on both sides of the House have point. The new clause is really a request for a reciprocal raised the important issue of transitional arrangements. arrangement to the one that exists for people who live in I told the Committee that I would return to the issue. the United Kingdom and want to claim Irish citizenship. The original clause 39 was found not to be acceptable. I For them, there is an easy route. All the new clause is trust that Government amendment 17, tabled in the requesting is that that easy route be available in the name of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, other direction. That is why this is a unique situation: alongside assurances that I intend to give the House will people who wish to have Irish citizenship have a method address the concerns raised by hon. Members about by which they can get it quickly, so to reciprocate in the transitional arrangements. I am also announcing today other direction seems to me to be fairly sensible. that, as part of our package of transitional measures, we have decided that to give those who are currently in Mr. Woolas: I am sorry the hon. Gentleman thinks I the UK on a route to settlement time to adjust to the have missed the point, but I think I have exactly addressed new system, we will allow the earned citizenship provisions the point, by saying that there is an available route. I do to commence in July 2011. not accept that it is a difficult route. Indeed, many hon. Members have made representations to the effect that Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): I thank the Minister EU membership citizenship is too easy to get. If that is on behalf of members of the Malaya league community the case for other EU countries, hon. Members would in Salisbury, who make a very valuable contribution to presumably think it was the case for the Republic of the economy of the country. Ireland. Let me deal briefly with new clause 3. The House will Mr. Woolas: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for not be surprised to know that I shall ask it to resist the that comment. amending provision. We believe that the revised policy I believe that I said on Second reading—I certainly on the situation of the Gurkhas meets the concerns of said it in Committee—that I support the idea of transitional Parliament on the issue. It is not open to civil servants arrangements. The court ruled on the highly skilled dealing with applications to disregard the published migrant programme. Of course we accepted that, and I policy; it is established case law that policy must be personally accept that in such cases there is a reasonable followed and it would be unlawful not to give effect to expectation for application for status. That is not the it. The policy we now have follows the commitments case in the other categories, as we established in Committee. given by the Home Secretary, following the vote in the The precedent set in court established that there is no House of Commons, and I can confirm that officials reasonable expectation in law. However, we understand are, of course, following it. The policy provides certainty the point that has been made. that the Ghurkhas discharged before 1997 will be allowed New clause 7 attempts to reinstate much of the old to apply for settlement. clause 39. It would provide for a one-year period after The proposed amending provision would also have commencement in which migrants may apply for indefinite the effect of altering the position of those Gurkhas leave to remain or for citizenship under the current discharged after 1 July 1997. The logic of the distinction rules. I explained in Committee why part 2 is not an between those who served pre-1997 and those who appropriate context in which to deal with applications served after was recognised by the High Court, as it is for indefinite leave to remain. I hope that hon. Members recognised by common sense. The problem is that the will understand why clause 39 was removed in the first new clause would make the rules for Gurkhas since place, and why it is preferable to amend clause 59. I 1997 inconsistent with those of Commonwealth soldiers. believe that I can provide the assurances that have been It was that principle that the campaign was trying to sought. establish. In the context of new clause 5, my hon. Friend the Mr. Gerrard: Can my hon. Friend respond to the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard) raised the question that I asked about what could be in the important question of what would happen if an application commencement order? for probationary citizenship failed. Given that the Bill relates to citizenship—not to settlement, which is covered Mr. Woolas: Yes, I can. Let me explain. This is a very by other Acts and rules—the answer is that citizenship important matter for many of our constituents. would not be granted. Status is covered elsewhere, under Amendment 23 seeks to deal with those who arrived settlement rules. here on the highly skilled migrant programme. I explained As my hon. Friend said, there would be several in Committee that the Government would of course options for those affected. If a person with permanent honour obligations under the judgments to allow HSMP residence applies for British citizenship and the application migrants covered by the judgments of the court to fails, that will not affect that person’s permanent residence apply for indefinite leave to remain. We do not accept status. That is probably the category about which he is that HSMP migrants have a legitimate expectation to be most concerned. If a person with probationary citizenship able to apply for citizenship as amendment 23 suggests, 233 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 234 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] but I hope that after I have explained our proposed Chris Huhne: With the leave of the House, Madam package of transitional arrangements, the hon. Member Deputy Speaker, given the Minister’s assurances, we for Ashford (Damian Green) will accept that they are withdraw new clause 7. fair and will not press the amendment to a vote. I am happy to accept that some provision in the Bill is Madam Deputy Speaker (Sylvia Heal): That has not desirable to provide sufficient clarity and assurance in been moved, but I understand what the hon. Gentleman relation to any transitional provisions. That is the point is saying. on which the hon. Gentleman pushed me. Other matters are set out better and in more detail in the commencement New Clause 3 order giving effect to part 2.

Government amendment 17 requires the commencement AMENDMENT OF THE IMMIGRATION RULES RELATING order giving effect to the earned citizenship provisions TO GURKHAS in the Bill to set out transitional arrangements for ‘(1) The Immigration Rules, as laid before Parliament under certain groups. We have made clear in legislation that section 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77), are amended as people who apply for citizenship before the earned follows. citizenship provisions are commenced will be treated (2) In Rule 276F (requirements for indefinite leave to enter the under the current system—that is, they will not be United Kingdom as a Gurkha discharged from the British Army) subject to the earned citizenship provisions. We have omit paragraphs (ii) and (iii). also made it clear that people who already have indefinite (3) In Rule 276I (requirements for indefinite leave to remain in leave to remain when the earned citizenship provisions the United Kingdom as a Gurkha discharged from the British commence, and people who apply for ILR before the Army) omit paragraphs (ii) and (iii). provisions commence and whose application is successful, (4) Gurkhas discharged from the British Army prior to 1997 will be eligible to apply for citizenship under the current shall have parity with Commonwealth servicemen in terms of the system, provided that they apply within two years of requirements for indefinite leave to enter and remain in the commencement. That deals with the point made by the United Kingdom.’.—(Chris Huhne.) hon. Gentleman in Committee. Brought up, and read the First time. For the avoidance of doubt, let me reassure the Question put, That the clause be read a Second time. House that although Government amendment 17 does not specifically make provision for migrants with a The House divided: Ayes 189, Noes 270. pending application for ILR submitted but not decided Division No. 200] [8.30 pm before the rules are changed following commencement, those people will have their ILR applications considered AYES under the existing rules. The law requires that. As I have Afriyie, Adam Davies, David T.C. said, the Bill is not the appropriate place to set out Ainsworth, Mr. Peter (Monmouth) transitional arrangements for applications for ILR, and Alexander, Danny Davies, Philip I am making this statement on the record in order to Amess, Mr. David Davis, rh David provide clarity. Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Baker, Norman Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen I believe that, taken together, the Government Barker, Gregory Dorries, Nadine amendment and the statement I have just made about Barrett, John Drew, Mr. David how we will treat applications for ILR meet the intention Beith, rh Sir Alan Duddridge, James behind new clause 7(b). On that basis, I hope that I have Benyon, Mr. Richard Dunne, Mr. Philip satisfied the House that the transitional arrangements Beresford, Sir Paul Evans, Mr. Nigel are fair. Binley, Mr. Brian Fabricant, Michael Finally, there is the issue of continuous employment. Blunt, Mr. Crispin Fallon, Mr. Michael I gave assurances to the Committee that sensible Bone, Mr. Peter Farron, Tim arrangements could be made. I said that if people lost Boswell, Mr. Tim Featherstone, Lynne their jobs through no fault of their own, they would be Breed, Mr. Colin Gale, Mr. Roger Brokenshire, James George, Andrew given reasonable opportunities—commensurate with Brooke, Annette Gidley, Sandra employment law, as agreed in the Employment Acts—that Browne, Mr. Jeremy Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl would provide the flexibility that they sought. Bruce, rh Malcolm Goodwill, Mr. Robert I hope that I have answered hon. Members’ questions Burns, Mr. Simon Grayling, Chris and that I have made the proposed amendments that I Burrowes, Mr. David Green, Damian undertook to make in Committee. My hon. Friend the Burt, Lorely Grieve, Mr. Dominic Member for Walthamstow asked me to confirm the Campbell, Mr. Gregory Gummer, rh Mr. John situation regarding the commencement order. The Campbell, rh Sir Menzies Hancock, Mr. Mike amendment prevents us from doing anything more Carmichael, Mr. Alistair Harper, Mr. Mark restrictive in the commencement order regarding those Carswell, Mr. Douglas Harris, Dr. Evan Chope, Mr. Christopher Harvey, Nick individuals whom it covers. It does not prevent us from Clappison, Mr. James Hayes, Mr. John extending the protection by making further transitionals Clark, Greg Heath, Mr. David for other groups. I hope that that satisfies him. Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey Heathcoat-Amory, rh Corbyn, Jeremy Mr. David Andrew Mackinlay: With the leave of the House, Cox, Mr. Geoffrey Hemming, John Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to ask leave to withdraw Crabb, Mr. Stephen Hendry, Charles the clause, because I am looking forward to hearing Curry, rh Mr. David Hoban, Mr. Mark about the common travel area. Davey, Mr. Edward Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas Clause, by leave, withdrawn. Davies, Mr. Dai Hollobone, Mr. Philip 235 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 236 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Holloway, Mr. Adam Robertson, Hugh Betts, Mr. Clive Goodman, Helen Holmes, Paul Robertson, Mr. Laurence Blackman, Liz Griffith, Nia Horam, Mr. John Robinson, Mrs. Iris Blears, rh Hazel Griffiths, Nigel Horwood, Martin Robinson, rh Mr. Peter Blunkett, rh Mr. David Grogan, Mr. John Hosie, Stewart Rogerson, Dan Borrow, Mr. David S. Gwynne, Andrew Howarth, David Rosindell, Andrew Bradshaw, rh Mr. Ben Hall, Mr. Mike Howarth, Mr. Gerald Rowen, Paul Brennan, Kevin Hall, Patrick Howell, John Ruffley, Mr. David Brown, Lyn Hamilton, Mr. David Huhne, Chris Russell, Bob Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas Hamilton, Mr. Fabian Hunter, Mark Sanders, Mr. Adrian Brown, Mr. Russell Hanson, rh Mr. David Jack, rh Mr. Michael Scott, Mr. Lee Buck, Ms Karen Harris, Mr. Tom Jackson, Mr. Stewart Selous, Andrew Burden, Richard Havard, Mr. Dai Jenkin, Mr. Bernard Shapps, Grant Burgon, Colin Healey, rh John Jones, Mr. David Simmonds, Mark Burnham, rh Andy Henderson, Mr. Doug Kawczynski, Daniel Simpson, Alan Butler, Ms Dawn Hendrick, Mr. Mark Keetch, Mr. Paul Smith, Sir Robert Byrne, rh Mr. Liam Hepburn, Mr. Stephen Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles Spelman, Mrs. Caroline Caborn, rh Mr. Richard Heppell, Mr. John Key, Robert Spicer, Sir Michael Campbell, Mr. Alan Hesford, Stephen Knight, rh Mr. Greg Spink, Bob Campbell, Mr. Ronnie Heyes, David Kramer, Susan Spring, Mr. Richard Caton, Mr. Martin Hill, rh Keith Lamb, Norman Stanley, rh Sir John Cawsey, Mr. Ian Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon Lancaster, Mr. Mark Streeter, Mr. Gary Challen, Colin Hood, Mr. Jim Lansley, Mr. Andrew Stunell, Andrew Chapman, Ben Hope, Phil Leech, Mr. John Swayne, Mr. Desmond Clapham, Mr. Michael Hopkins, Kelvin Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver Swinson, Jo Clark, Paul Howarth, rh Mr. George Lewis, Dr. Julian Syms, Mr. Robert Clarke, rh Mr. Charles Howells, rh Dr. Kim Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian Taylor, Mr. Ian Clarke,rhMr.Tom Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay Lilley, rh Mr. Peter Taylor, Dr. Richard Clelland, Mr. David Hughes, rh Beverley Luff, Peter Teather, Sarah Clwyd, rh Ann Humble, Mrs. Joan Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew Turner, Mr. Andrew Coaker, Mr. Vernon Hutton, rh Mr. John Malins, Mr. Humfrey Tyrie, Mr. Andrew Coffey, Ann Iddon, Dr. Brian Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert Vara, Mr. Shailesh Cohen, Harry Illsley, Mr. Eric Mason, John Vaz, rh Keith Cook, Frank Ingram, rh Mr. Adam Mates, rh Mr. Michael Viggers, Sir Peter Cooper, Rosie Irranca-Davies, Huw Maude, rh Mr. Francis Villiers, Mrs. Theresa Crausby, Mr. David James, Mrs. Siân C. May, rh Mrs. Theresa Walker, Mr. Charles Cryer, Mrs. Ann Jenkins, Mr. Brian McCrea, Dr. William Waterson, Mr. Nigel Cummings, John Johnson, rh Alan McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair Watkinson, Angela Cunningham, Mr. Jim Johnson, Ms Diana R. McDonnell, John Webb, Steve Cunningham, Tony Jones, Helen McIntosh, Miss Anne Weir, Mr. Mike David, Mr. Wayne Jones, Mr. Kevan McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick Whittingdale, Mr. John Davidson, Mr. Ian Jones, Lynne Mercer, Patrick Wiggin, Bill Davies, Mr. Quentin Jones, Mr. Martyn Miller, Mrs. Maria Willetts, Mr. David Dean, Mrs. Janet Jowell, rh Tessa Moore, Mr. Michael Williams, Hywel Denham, rh Mr. John Joyce, Mr. Eric Moss, Mr. Malcolm Williams, Mark Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald Mulholland, Greg Williams, Stephen Dobbin, Jim Keeble, Ms Sally Murrison, Dr. Andrew Willis, Mr. Phil Dobson, rh Frank Keeley, Barbara O’Brien, Mr. Stephen Willott, Jenny Donohoe, Mr. Brian H. Keen, Alan Oaten, Mr. Mark Wilshire, Mr. David Doran, Mr. Frank Keen, Ann Öpik, Lembit Wilson, Mr. Rob Dowd, Jim Kelly, rh Ruth Ottaway, Richard Wilson, Sammy Eagle, Angela Kemp, Mr. Fraser Penrose, John Winterton, Ann Eagle, Maria Khan, rh Mr. Sadiq Pickles, Mr. Eric Wishart, Pete Efford, Clive Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter Ellman, Mrs. Louise Knight, rh Jim Price, Adam Wright, Jeremy Pritchard, Mark Engel, Natascha Kumar, Dr. Ashok Young, rh Sir George Pugh, Dr. John Ennis, Jeff Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Younger-Ross, Richard Randall, Mr. John Fisher, Mark Lammy, rh Mr. David Redwood, rh Mr. John Tellers for the Ayes: Fitzpatrick, Jim Laxton, Mr. Bob Reid, Mr. Alan Tom Brake and Flello, Mr. Robert Lepper, David Rennie, Willie Mr. Roger Williams Flynn, Paul Levitt, Tom Foster, Mr. Michael Lewis, Mr. Ivan NOES (Worcester) Lloyd, Tony Foster, Michael Jabez Love, Mr. Andrew Ainger, Nick Balls, rh Ed (Hastings and Rye) Lucas, Ian Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob Banks, Gordon Francis, Dr. Hywel Mackinlay, Andrew Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas Barron, rh Mr. Kevin Gapes, Mike MacShane, rh Mr. Denis Allen, Mr. Graham Battle, rh John Gardiner, Barry Mactaggart, Fiona Anderson, Janet Bayley, Hugh George, rh Mr. Bruce Malik, Mr. Shahid Atkins, Charlotte Beckett, rh Margaret Gerrard, Mr. Neil Mallaber, Judy Austin, Mr. Ian Benn, rh Hilary Gilroy, Linda Mann, John Austin, John Benton, Mr. Joe Godsiff, Mr. Roger Marris, Rob Bailey, Mr. Adrian Berry, Roger Goggins, rh Paul Marsden, Mr. Gordon 237 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 238 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Martlew, Mr. Eric Seabeck, Alison Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas Sharma, Mr. Virendra to discuss the following: amendment 46, in clause 59, McCabe, Steve Sheerman, Mr. Barry page 47, line 31, leave out ‘50 (Common Travel Area),’. McCafferty, Chris Sheridan, Jim McCarthy, Kerry Simon, Mr. Siôn Amendment 47, in schedule, page 50, leave out lines 4 McFadden, rh Mr. Pat Singh, Mr. Marsha to 6. McGovern, Mr. Jim Skinner, Mr. Dennis McGrady, Mr. Eddie Slaughter, Mr. Andy Paul Rowen: Amendment 14 would remove clause 50, McGuire, rh Mrs. Anne Smith, rh Mr. Andrew which deals with the common travel area. I understand McIsaac, Shona Smith, rh Angela E. (Basildon) that the Minister is to make a statement on this matter, McKechin, Ann Smith, Geraldine so I shall sit down to hear the good news. McKenna, Rosemary Snelgrove, Anne Meacher, rh Mr. Michael Soulsby, Sir Peter Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con): I had planned to Merron, Gillian Southworth, Helen gild the lily of my arguments in Committee, which were Michael, rh Alun Spellar, rh Mr. John sadly rejected—[Interruption.] Miliband, rh Edward Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Miller, Andrew Stewart, Ian Mitchell, Mr. Austin Stoate, Dr. Howard Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. There are far too Moffatt, Laura Strang, rh Dr. Gavin many private conversations going on in the Chamber. Mole, Chris Stringer, Graham Will Members who are not wishing to listen or participate Moon, Mrs. Madeleine Stuart, Ms Gisela please either leave or keep their conversations low? Morden, Jessica Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry Morgan, Julie Tami, Mark Mr. Blunt: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. As I Mudie, Mr. George Taylor, Ms Dari was saying, I had planned to gild the lily of the arguments Mullin, Mr. Chris Taylor, David that I made in Committee, which were sadly rejected by Munn, Meg Thomas, Mr. Gareth the Government. Given the lateness of the hour and the Murphy, Mr. Denis Thornberry, Emily amount of time left for this debate, it would probably be Murphy, rh Mr. Paul Timms, rh Mr. Stephen Norris, Dan Todd, Mr. Mark inappropriate to restate things. I am afraid that right O’Brien, rh Mr. Mike Touhig, rh Mr. Don hon. and hon. Members who want to see the arguments O’Hara, Mr. Edward Trickett, Jon in detail will have to look at the Committee Hansard. I Olner, Mr. Bill Turner, Dr. Desmond do not think that the arguments on either side have Osborne, Sandra Turner, Mr. Neil changed substantially. The Government have had a Owen, Albert Twigg, Derek month to reflect on them, and I hope that we will get a Palmer, Dr. Nick Vis, Dr. Rudi different answer today. I look forward to listening to the Plaskitt, Mr. James Walley, Joan Minister reply to the debate. Pope, Mr. Greg Waltho, Lynda Pound, Stephen Ward, Claire Mr. Woolas: I thank the hon. Members for Rochdale Prentice, Bridget Watts, Mr. Dave (Paul Rowen) and for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) for their Prentice, Mr. Gordon Whitehead, Dr. Alan constructive attitude. Let me explain where we are. Primarolo, rh Dawn Wicks, rh Malcolm Prosser, Gwyn Williams, rh Mr. Alan The Government are disappointed, as am I, that we Purchase, Mr. Ken Williams, Mrs. Betty have not been able to persuade the other place of the Purnell, rh James Wilson, Phil need for the clause. We think that the UK’s security Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick Winnick, Mr. David requires some amendments to the common travel area. Reed, Mr. Jamie Winterton, rh Ms Rosie [Interruption.] This is my statement, which I have had Riordan, Mrs. Linda Wood, Mike typed up. Robertson, John Woolas, Mr. Phil I believe that the Committee Hansard shows that the Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey Wright, Mr. Anthony Rooney, Mr. Terry argument was won by the Government, although it is Wright, David clear that the hon. Member for Reigate does not think Roy, Lindsay Wright, Mr. Iain Ruane, Chris so. As I argued there, and as my noble Friend Lord Wright, Dr. Tony Ruddock, Joan West has argued in the other place, we think that this Wyatt, Derek Russell, Christine issue is important. For example, just one week of activity Ryan, rh Joan Tellers for the Noes: at a limited number of UK ports revealed 158 immigration Salter, Martin Mr. Frank Roy and offences via the CTA. Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad Mary Creagh Paul Rowen: Section 14 of the Police and Justice Act Question accordingly negatived. 2006 would require carriers to provide information on Amendment made: 15, page 19, line 23, leave out travellers who were not holding a UK or Irish passport. clause 25.—(Mr. Woolas.) Does he agree that if that were implemented, it would be a much simpler way of securing our borders?

Clause 50 Mr. Woolas: We believe that that is part of the answer. Implicit in the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion is COMMON TRAVEL AREA an acceptance that there is an issue that needs to be addressed, and I am grateful to him for that. There is no miracle cure to the problem. We believe that the limited 8.45 pm and proportionate measure that we put forward would Paul Rowen: I beg to move amendment 14, page 44, make a difference, but that is for the future. The fact is line 4, leave out clause 50. that we have to face some hard and immediate truths. 239 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 240 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Sammy Wilson: Travellers from Northern Ireland are Mr. Blunt: On a point of order, Madam Deputy UK citizens, but what the measure that the Minister Speaker. Amendment 14 tabled by the Liberal Democrats, describes as “limited and proportionate” would mean which was debated in Committee and signed by us and that all of them would be treated as non-UK citizens, has just been agreed to, requires amendments 46 and 47 even when they travel within the UK. Leaving aside the in order for the legislation to hang together. practical difficulties, does he accept that there is a real Madam Deputy Speaker: The hon. Gentleman is correct, political difficulty with that? If the clause were to go but they come later in the proceedings. through, a large section of people who regard themselves as UK citizens would be treated as though they lived Damian Green: I beg to move amendment 26, outside the UK. page 46, line 9, at end insert— ‘(1A) In section 4 of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment Mr. Woolas: I do not accept that. That argument of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004 (c. 19) (trafficking people for shows the misunderstanding of the proposal. If the exploitation), after section 4(5) add— hon. Gentleman bears with me, I think that he will find “(5A) The Secretary of State shall publish a code of conduct that the answer gives him some satisfaction. to guide Entry Clearance Officers in their treatment of I have to face some hard immediate facts. The provisions applications which they suspect involve human trafficking.”’. of part 1 of the Bill, on which we have broad consensus, Madam Deputy Speaker: With this it will be convenient enable the formal establishment of a properly joined up to discuss the following: amendment 24, in clause 56, border force, bringing together immigration and customs page 46, line 39, at end insert— officers at the frontier. I believe that we need to get on ‘(5A) The Secretary of State shall collect and publish statistics with that, to complete the staff transfers and to draw regarding detention of children during the relevant period, on a out the real benefits of joint working. It is also fair to regular basis.’. say that the Government have listened and compromised Amendment 28, page 46, line 39, at end insert— on the Bill, which started in the other place, as we have taken it forward. I have made significant changes on the ‘(5A) The Secretary of State has a duty to ensure that children held in detention centres— nationality issues in the other place. I have listened to the concerns on the transitional measures, and I think (a) have access to counselling; that what I have proposed is the fair way forward. We (b) have access to English language classes; and have also reached agreement on judicial review. (c) receive education classes that are equivalent to what they would be entitled to if placed in state school However, there can be no compromise on the option education.’. of the common travel area. We either make this necessary Amendment 29, page 46, line 39, at end insert— change now, or we do not. I have therefore decided to accept the Opposition amendments to clause 50 this ‘(5A) The Secretary of State shall collect and publish monthly evening. We are committed to the policy and we will statistics regarding the detention of children, including figures relating to, the number of children detained, the average length examine the options going forward. It is clear to me of period in detention, and the number of children with the same from the discussions that we have had that the clause is family in detention, their ages, nationalities and where they are not acceptable across the Floor of the House, and is not detained.’. acceptable to the other place. Therefore, I intend to Amendment 39, page 46, line 39, at end insert— support the Opposition amendments. ‘(5A) The Director of Border Revenue and the Secretary of State have a duty, in the need to safeguard the welfare of Paul Rowen: I am grateful to the Minister for that children, to ensure that dawn raids are not used to— agreement. The common travel area has existed since (a) remove and/or deport families with children, who are 1922. It was enshrined in law in the Immigration Act failed asylum seekers or illegal immigrants; or 1971, and it recognises, as the hon. Member for Thurrock (b) remove and/or deport children of failed asylum seekers (Andrew Mackinlay) said earlier, the strong bond and or illegal immigrants.’. link between the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So I Damian Green: I am glad that we have a brief time to am grateful to the Minister for accepting our amendment. discuss an extremely important part of the Bill and the Amendment 14 agreed to. extremely important issue of human trafficking, and the action that we wish the Government to take to stop this particularly vile trade. I wish to speak in particular to amendment 26, in which we seek to establish that the Clause 54 Secretary of State should have a code of conduct to guide entry clearance officers in their treatment of TRANSFER OF IMMIGRATION OR NATIONALITY JUDICIAL applications for entry which they suspect involve human REVIEW APPLICATIONS trafficking. Amendment made: 41, in page 45, line 18, leave out We have discussed some issues in the past couple of clause 54.—(Mr. Woolas.) hours that deeply divide the two sides of the House. I know that human trafficking is not one of those. The Minister will feel as strongly as I do that we should end the practice of human trafficking. One of the things Clause 55 that has, sadly, led to Britain becoming one of the destination countries for human traffickers is the widespread TRAFFICKING PEOPLE FOR EXPLOITATION recognition that Britain’s borders are not secure enough. That, along with this country’s prosperity and the relative Madam Deputy Speaker: We now come to ease of illegal working here, is one of the reasons why amendments 26, 24, 28, 29 and 39. Britain has become a destination for human traffickers. 241 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 242 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] We Conservative Members believe that it is impossible is based on interviews with people who have been to tackle the overall issue of crime in the UK effectively caught, convicted and imprisoned. It is, therefore, evidence without addressing the problems at our borders. We that the system was working, whatever the response know that human traffickers target Britain, and we from the interviewees in that research, which is, in any know that there are various particularly pernicious event, now out of date. forms of human trafficking. It is often part of the sex Very briefly, the spirit of amendment 26 is well industry, and there has been a staggering and deeply intentioned. We agree with it, but we have problems depressing increase in the percentage of prostitutes in with the wording. On amendment 24 dealing with statistics this country who are young women trafficked from on children in detention, I hope to explain the progress abroad, either from eastern European countries just that has been made in regard to this important area— beyond the edge of the European Union, or from Africa. 9pm There is a real problem, as was illustrated just today, Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 2 June). when we discovered the details of a Home Office report that included research carried out as long ago as 2006, The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already although for some reason it has not come to light until proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), today. I always seek to be balanced, so I will give the That the amendment be made. Minister one quote from the Daily Express and one Amendment 26 negatived. from The Guardian. The Daily Express says: The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions “Criminals are convinced that Britain’s border controls are necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at ‘soft’ and that police are tolerant of the vice trade, according to a that time (Standing Order No. 83E). Home Office report”. The Guardian, perhaps even more seriously, says: “Corruption and bribery were mentioned by a range of interviewees Clause 58 involved in smuggling and trafficking as a means of smoothing the passage into the UK”. EXTENT I know that the Minister will be as concerned—indeed, Amendment made: 42, page 47, line 22, leave out ‘54’ disturbed—as I am at the thought that there are serious, and insert organised, international criminals who believe that bribery ‘[Transfer of certain immigration judicial review applications]’.— and corruption can be used to smooth the way into the (Mr. Woolas.) UK. [Interruption.] The Minister seeks to intervene from a sedentary position. As I say, there is, I think, nothing much that divides us on the need to combat Clause 59 human trafficking more effectively. Our amendment is Amendments made: 46, page 47, line 31, leave out ‘50 one way of taking a step forward on that. He knows (Common Travel Area),’. that I would urge on him much other activity in that sphere, but I should like to give him a chance to say Amendment 43, page 47, line 37, leave out ‘54 (transfer something on this important issue, so I shall end my of immigration or nationality judicial review applications)’ remarks. and insert ‘[Transfer of certain immigration judicial review applications] Keith Vaz: I, too, would like to hear what the Minister (transfer of certain immigration judicial review applications)’. has to say, so I shall be brief in supporting the hon. Amendment 17, page 48, line 11, at end insert— Member for Ashford (Damian Green). The amendments ‘(8A) An order commencing sections 39 to 41 (acquisition of are sensible. I think that there is unity across the House British citizenship by naturalisation) must include provision that on the need to deal with the traffickers of human the amendments made by those sections do not have effect in beings. I will seek to catch your eye on Third Reading, relation to an application for naturalisation as a British citizen Madam Deputy Speaker, but shall say now that it is if— important that we have a code of conduct that will (a) the date of the application is before the date on which better inform entry clearance officers of their responsibilities those sections come into force in accordance with the in dealing with those who have been trafficked. There order (“the date of commencement”), or are other amendments in the group that deal with the (b) the date of the application is before the end of the welfare of children; they, too, are sensible, and I hope period of 24 months beginning with the date of that the Minister will accept them. commencement and the application is made by a person who falls within subsection (8B) or (8C). Paul Rowen: I will be brief. I wish to speak to (8B) A person falls within this subsection if on the date of amendment 29, which stands in my name and the commencement the person has indefinite leave to remain in the names of my hon. Friends. On the issue of the collection United Kingdom. of data on children held in custody and in detention (8C) A person falls within this subsection if the person is given centres, in Committee, the Minister undertook to update indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom on an us on Report with further information with regard to application— publication and plans. I would be grateful if he dealt (a) the date of which is before the date of commencement, with those points, either now or on Third Reading. and (b) which is decided after the date of commencement. Mr. Woolas: Time is limited. I undertake to answer (8D) The reference in subsection (8A) to an order commencing the specific questions on Report, if I catch your eye sections 39 to 41 does not include an order commencing those then, Madam Deputy Speaker. With regard to the sections for the purpose only of enabling regulations to be made research that has been published, let me be clear that it under the British Nationality Act 1981 (c. 61).’. 243 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 244 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Amendment 44, page 48, line 24, at end insert— Concerns have been expressed by Members in this House ‘( ) No order may be made commencing section [Transfer of and the other place about the transitional arrangements, certain immigration judicial review applications] (transfer of and I hope that they have been satisfied this evening. certain immigration judicial review applications) unless the Our intention is and always has been to make fair and functions of the Asylum and Immigration Tribunal in relation to reasonable transitional arrangements, and, in response appeals under Part 5 of the Nationality, Immigration and to the debates in this House and the other place, I have Asylum Act 2002 (c. 41) have been transferred under section made the changes that we discussed earlier today. I have 30(1) of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (c. 15).’.—(Mr. Woolas.) therefore made a commitment to commence earned citizenship no earlier than July 2011, and placed in the Bill clear assurances, first, that people who apply for Schedule British citizenship before the earned citizenship provisions are commenced will be treated under the current law; REPEALS and, secondly, that the transitional arrangements on the Amendments made: 16, in page 49, leave out lines 6 commencement order must allow for citizenship and 7. applications that are made within two years of Amendment 47, page 50, leave out lines 4 to 6. commencement by those who have indefinite leave to Amendment 45, page 50, leave out lines 11 to 15.— remain on the date of commencement, or by those who (Mr. Woolas.) are granted ILR following an application pre-dating commencement, to be considered under the current law. Third Reading. I am hugely pleased with the success of the measures 9.1 pm in parts 1 and 2. They enable change that the public want; stronger borders, with a single, integrated customs Mr. Woolas: I beg to move, That the Bill be now read and immigration check now possible; and clear rules for the Third time. those who want to settle in the United Kingdom. There I would like to put on record my thanks to Members have also been some important, small changes in parts 3 of the House for the work that they have put into and 4: the studies clause, which strengthens the points-based scrutinising the Bill. I commend the many valuable system by tying those on student visas more firmly to contributions from Members on both sides of the House. their sponsoring institution—a measure that our Perhaps I may draw a veil over the less constructive constituents strongly support—as well as the clause points. The Committee on the Bill was particularly that will speed up the fingerprinting of foreign criminals helpful, and was conducted in exactly the right atmosphere and facilitate their deportation; and the extension of and manner in which a Bill should be scrutinised. I the power of detention at port in certain circumstances thank the Chairs of the Committee and the officials by immigration officers in Scotland, to help support the who have been involved in the different parts of the Bill, police in fighting crime. the Public Bill officials, Hansard, and the Whips, who I also welcome the duty to safeguard and protect the ensured that the Bill had smooth passage through welfare of children, which imposes that important principle Committee and on the Floor of the House. at the centre of the UK Border Agency’s work. On a The Bill is crucial to the future development of the further issue of consensus, agreement was reached in UK Border Agency. I hope that its speedy enactment, the other place on the new clause on trafficking, which subject to the agreement of the other place to our amends the definition to include those who traffic children. amendments, will enable the transfer of 4,500 customs A specific point was made a moment ago about the officers from HM Revenue and Customs to UKBA. We statistics, and we are on course to be able to include want that to happen as soon as possible. That will mark them in the August bulletin. It was argued that Members a milestone in the reform of the way in which we protect wanted not just the snapshot of the numbers that we our borders. The reform of the immigration system will currently provide, but the average—a median and a be given yet more impetus, as I indicated earlier in mean, if I remember my schoolboy statistics correctly—in answer to my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead order to provide a better picture, and the independent (Mr. Field), by the publication of proposals for consultation Home Office statisticians are on course to be able to on a points-based system and by the publication of the provide what the House needs. draft immigration simplification Bill, which I know we I do not wish to reopen the debate about the common are all eagerly awaiting, in the autumn. travel area, because I made my proposal a moment ago. The Bill is already making important changes to our I believe that there is an unfortunate loophole in our nationality and immigration laws, and I have been border security and it is obviously incumbent on the grateful for the opportunities afforded to the Government, Government to find a means of closing it that is acceptable in the Chamber and the other place, fully to examine to Parliament. That is what we will seek to do. and explain their proposals and the intentions behind One of the most important changes in the Bill is that them. Principal among them are the proposals on earned to the judicial review process, and I hope that their citizenship, important debates which concern the affect lordships accept the proposals. I again pay tribute to the of our laws on peoples’ lives, aspirations and entitlements. noble Lord Kingsland, who worked tirelessly on the Such debates enable us, as I have done today, to set out issue and, indeed, on many other pieces of Home Office a new path to citizenship that makes a reality of the legislation in a constructive and positive manner. The pledge to ensure that those who wish to become British clause restricts the transfer of judicial reviews to “fresh citizens earn that right, to enable them better to get on claims”. It is a strange description for that category of in life and to do so in the context of the recognition by claims, because they are not in fact fresh—but I never the indigenous population that those immigrants are really wanted to be a lawyer in any event. Lord Kingsland’s here legally and with a positive purpose. I believe that thinking was an important part of our underlying we have achieved an important consensus on that issue. considerations in tabling the amendment. 245 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 246 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] In today’s debates, in Committee, and on Second good of him to say that that was the appropriate and Reading, the Bill has been criticised as being yet another right thing to do, and I am glad that he has confirmed piece of immigration legislation. The House should that on the Floor of the House. Overall, after those consider two important points in that regard. First, significant changes, we should offer thanks to the Minister immigration law necessarily changes as a result of for presiding over that range of retreats with grace and responding to changing circumstances—changes in global good humour. I am aware that being a Minister at the situations, in movements of people, and in the activities moment requires a sense of humour, and I am delighted of those who are not well-intended towards our country. that he has kept his throughout the proceedings and at Many of the provisions in the Bill are in response to all other times in the past few months. events. Keith Vaz: I intervene at the risk of breaking this Secondly, the laws that we pass in this place have wonderful consensus between the two Front Benchers, a direct impact on many people’s lives. Even the which I have not witnessed very often between them. It announcement of an intended consultation on a piece is not quite mutual admiration, because the hon. Gentleman of immigration law has a direct impact on people and was not lavished with praise, although maybe he will be causes changes in their behaviour, not just in this country in the remainder of the debate. Does he share my but around the world. The substantial changes to concern about how the Minister dealt with his points immigration policy that have been introduced in the about the report on the Home Office and human trafficking, past two years represent the first concerted, serious and the allegations that were made? Does he agree that attempt to put in place a managed migration policy in it is important that even though those allegations relate the United Kingdom. It is important that we do that in to 2006, they ought to be investigated seriously? a way that does not have unintended consequences, not only in law but indirectly, in terms of people’s behaviour. Damian Green: I very much agree with the right hon. One always finds such changes in behaviour as a result Gentleman, and I was going to come to that later. We of proposed legislation. That is partly why I have been had a greatly truncated debate about trafficking, about keen to try to build a consensus on the Bill, and I believe which I share his concern. As he says, I have lavished the that we have done so, by and large. I am grateful to the Minister with praise, but I now wish to express deep House for that support. concern about some matters. Before I come to trafficking, The Bill is now in the right shape to send it back to I begin with the common travel area. the other place, where it started. It is therefore my Although the Minister has withdrawn the Government’s pleasure to commend its Third Reading. original proposal and accepted an amendment to remove it, which is welcome, he used the word “necessary” to 9.12 pm describe the Government’s proposed changes and said that he proposed to return to them later. That struck me Damian Green: I echo the Minister’s thanks to all the as a clear signal that we are not out of the woods and officials who dealt with the Bill. That meant that technically that the common travel area is still under threat. It is its passage was smooth, even if in other ways it was less therefore worth rehearsing some of the arguments that so; I also echo his remarks in that respect. won the day in another place. I agree with my hon. I think, most unfashionably, that in this case we can Friend the Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt) that they give about two and a half cheers for parliamentary also won the day in Committee. procedure. It is pretty unfashionable to say that Parliament The Government’s proposals, which the Minister has works and does its job, but it is unarguable that the Bill just described as “necessary”, are offensive in principle that has emerged at this stage is considerably better to many of our fellow citizens. They are reckless with than the Bill that was originally introduced in another regard to the constitutional implications for Britain’s place. Significant improvements, both big and small, relations with its dependencies, and if they were ever have been made to it in each House. To that extent, we implemented, which he said he still intended to do, they can all feel reasonably satisfied with the work that has would prove ineffective. He knows that the practical been done over the past couple of months. application of them would be fatally undermined by the The most recent and most dramatic example of that fact that the land border between Northern Ireland and is the Minister’s retreat on the common travel area, but the Irish Republic is simply not policed. That is for the way he explained that means that I wish to return to good, historic reasons that we all know, but it means it in a moment. We should also pay tribute to him for that it is simply non-existent as a security barrier. retreating on the retrospection clauses on high-skill Paul Rowen: I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point migrants, and others, and their moves towards citizenship. about the argument not having been made. Given that That is a welcome improvement. On the changes to 15.4 million people travel between the UK and the judicial referrals, he rightly and generously paid tribute Republic of Ireland annually, my calculation is that if to the work of Lord Kingsland, which, again, I echo. I there were a 30-second passport reading, that would am glad that the House has reached an appropriate take up some 2,500 man days, or person days. Does he compromise that protects the interests of those who believe that that shows the whole process would be may have genuine cause for concern about the legal completely unworkable? procedure, while not clogging up the courts, to repeat the legal phrase that the Minister used earlier. Damian Green: Certainly, at no stage has any Minister I am glad that the Minister was able to confirm that made the case that the process would not cause huge he will be able to produce proper, useful statistics on the inconvenience to travellers on some routes. Almost before number of children in detention. As he is aware, that considering that practical stage, it is worth asking whether was the subject of one of the key amendments that the security aspects that the Government pray in aid are Conservative Members tabled in Committee. It was themselves practical. I do not believe they are. 247 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 248 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] Mr. Woolas: I do not wish to reopen the argument, Mr. Woolas: The answer to the hon. Member for but our proposals to amend the common travel area are Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) is that the loophole has not based on our belief and strong advice that third-country occurred because of the Good Friday agreement. Smuggling nationals are using a route into the United Kingdom drugs and other illegal objects through the Republic of through the Republic of Ireland with criminal and Ireland is happening because of the stronger measures malicious intent. Do the official Opposition accept that that we have established in UK ports. Hon. Members or not? If they do, do they have proposals as to how we are more than welcome, if they wish, to have access to should deal with it? Can we therefore have a discussion briefings from police and security forces to convince about potential amendments to how we police and them of that. I have decided not to include a provision secure our border? in the Bill because, despite the evidence of the 8,000 clandestine and illegal routes through the Republic of Damian Green: I am not aware that the Government Ireland given in the other place, for other reasons—I do have produced convincing evidence about the loophole not impugn the hon. Gentleman’s motive—the Opposition in our defences. I know that the Irish Republic has decided to oppose it. taken considerable steps to improve its border security in recent years and that the Minister approves of those Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have allowed some measures. [Interruption.] We do not oppose the principle leeway, but as hon. Members know, Third Reading is of e-Borders, as the Minister knows. He keeps repeating about the content of the Bill. that canard—he knows it is not true, but he cannot resist repeating it. We object to the deep inadequacies in the implementation of e-Borders. He cannot have it Damian Green: I am grateful for your guidance, Madam both ways. If the Irish Republic is introducing a system Deputy Speaker, though I am sure you will admit that that he supports and makes its border effective, he your generosity and latitude was rewarded by some cannot at the same time claim that there is a huge interesting exchanges. We have discovered a lot recently, loophole, which threatens the security of this country, and, in rapidly closing the out-of-order part of my especially as he has made no proposals to change the speech, I simply say that, although the Minister mentions status of the land border between the Republic and the evidence, the only evidence that he has produced so far UK in Northern Ireland. is a newspaper cutting. That is frankly not convincing.

Mr. Woolas: Sometimes we have a more interesting Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): I am a debate after the votes than before them. Let me be clear: member of the all-party group on trafficking of women the Conservative Opposition rely on the Republic of and children and we have called for the setting up of a Ireland’s border security measures to secure the United commissioner in this country, so that we can have a Kingdom. Those measures include electronic borders. proper assessment of human trafficking, and proper The Conservative Opposition have substantial problems—I evidence can be provided before any decisions are made. accept that they do not oppose the idea in principle—with our e-Borders, so their solution to the loophole is to rely on a foreign country’s system of border control, which Damian Green: My hon. Friend, along with my hon. they do not accept for the United Kingdom. Friend the Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen) and many other Members on both sides of the House and in both Damian Green: The Minister wilfully misunderstands. Houses, do very good work on that group, and I am We do not completely rely on the Republic of Ireland. glad that some of the Bill’s measures will actually help As the hon. Member for Rochdale (Paul Rowen) pointed in the fight against human trafficking. The Minister will out, the Government have passed legislation, which, if be aware that we have been urging him to greater implemented, would significantly affect precisely the activity in this regard. We spent some time urging the people they are trying to keep out. However, they have Government to sign up to the convention against human not implemented it. trafficking, which they then did. They have now ratified it, and we can only hope that as a result of some of the Chris Huhne: It seems extraordinary that we are now measures in the Bill, this country will do better in hearing from the Government Benches about apparent combating trafficking than it has done in recent years. threats to national security, when we maintained an In saying that, I am not seeking to make a partisan open border with the Republic of Ireland throughout point, as I am conscious that any British Government the troubles, when we faced serious terrorist threats. would have had problems with the explosion in trafficking The Good Friday agreement, for which I pay due tribute in the past few years. However, I hope the Minister will to the Government, means that that threat has been take on board what I and the right hon. Member for removed, yet they now propose ending the common Leicester, East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home travel area. That is astonishing and absurd. Affairs Committee, have said. There were stories in today’s newspapers about a three-year-old Home Office Damian Green: I agree. The Minister should stop report that suggested that the traffickers regarded Britain digging, because his warnings of what not taking the as something of a soft touch and thought they could steps that he wants would mean for the security of this use bribery and corruption to ply their criminal trade in country are becoming ever more apocalyptic. If he this country and to smuggle people into it. That is genuinely believes that, he should argue his case. He hugely disturbing. I very much hope that the Minister should take it back to the House of Lords. However, can give some reassurance to the House that that report having lost a vote there, he has given up and caved in. is being acted on. Frankly, it should have been acted on That suggests he does not believe that the security some years ago, but if it has not been, can he give us threat is as big as he has just claimed. some reassurance that he is acting on it now? 249 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 250 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] We welcome the improvements in the Bill—there our border, but it is an advantage that we do not exploit have been four significant ones that will help. However, enough. It is because our borders are so insecure that sitting back and looking at the Bill even in its improved we are a destination country for people traffickers and state, I think it is clear that it is still a fairly incoherent some of the world’s most significant and unpleasant mixture of measures, some of which will be mildly criminal gangs. useful, some of which will be mildly damaging, but That is where I believe the Bill is a huge missed none of which will address the scale and size of the opportunity—part 1 is an aspect of that, but so are the crisis in our immigration system over recent years. citizenship proposals. Fascinatingly, we have heard little As has been said, we have an immigration Bill almost from the Home Office—indeed, there has been silence— every year. I calculate that there have been eight of them about the extension of the points-based system to citizenship under this Government; the hon. Member for Eastleigh applications since the previous Home Secretary stood (Chris Huhne) always makes it nine. at the Dispatch Box and announced this big new idea, Chris Huhne: Eleven. yet we have now had all stages of this Bill, through to Third Reading. What has happened to that proposal? Damian Green: The hon. Gentleman makes it 11; at We have gone through an entire Bill. The previous some stage we must sit down and work out which he Home Secretary made radical proposals for changing thinks are immigration Bills and which I do not think the route to citizenship—changes that she appeared to are. Either way, we have had at least enough, if not too let out of the bag to Parliament—yet the House of much, such legislation, of which this Bill is the latest in Commons and the House of Lords have discussed a a long line, that has not been matched by any significant citizenship Bill without any proposals from the Government increased effectiveness in the immigration system. Today about them. the Minister has heard Members in all parts of the That is significant. If those proposals are properly House complaining about delays, routine incompetence worked out—I assume that they had been, otherwise and the unfairness caused by the administrative problems the then Home Secretary would not have stood at the in the system, and he will be aware that unless and until Dispatch Box and revealed them—it seems implausible the Government get to grips with those, the public that the Government should be sitting on them. Let me confidence in the system will not be restored. warn the Minister now that if the Government produce The other significant fact about the Bill is how small those proposals over the summer, when Parliament is it is, especially when compared with the ambitions for it not sitting, Parliament will be right to be angry, particularly when it was first mooted. Last summer, the then Home when you have made such a welcome point about Secretary published a huge draft Bill that was going to announcements coming first to Parliament, Mr. Speaker. be all-encompassing and that would simplify and sharpen I hope that that extremely welcome rubric will apply up the system. Over the subsequent months, that Bill over the summer, as well as during the day, as it were, melted. What was left was a small remnant of that and that when Ministers say they are about to announce Bill—a haphazard mix of a few ideas, some of which something, that announcement should be made first to might help a little, others of which are fairly meaningless. Parliament. Some were simply absurd, although I am glad to say Either the Minister has until next Tuesday to announce that some of the more absurd have now disappeared. those proposals or we will expect nothing to come out However—this is almost the most serious charge—the before October. [Interruption.] The Minister mentions Bill is also a missed opportunity. Part 1 deals with the party conference. I would remind him that, for the functions at the border. The failure to tackle the porousness moment, he is the Government. Therefore, he may want of Britain’s border has resulted in the disastrous rise in to make announcements at his party conference, but he organised immigration crime that this country faces. We still has at least a week left to give us some idea. cannot tackle crime generally in the UK effectively without addressing the problem of our porous borders. The ultimate verdict on the Bill must be one of severe We on the Conservative Benches believe that our borders disappointment. We have an annual immigration Bill can be better policed, preventing significant amounts of from this Government—some are better than others, illegal immigration, as well as cracking down on people but none has faced up to the severity of the crisis in our trafficking and weapons and drugs smuggling, by setting immigration system. up a national border police force. Mr. Bone: Before my hon. Friend concludes his remarks, Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman will have noted in may I tell him that I am interested in the issue of when The Times today that a second report has emerged, any announcement might be made? Is he suggesting from the Cabinet Office, which looked at serious and that Parliament might have to be recalled to hear such organised crime. That report showed that 30,000 people an announcement? were involved in criminal gangs and that the illegal economy had grown to some £40 billion. Therefore, the Damian Green: I genuinely do not wish to be the first issue touches not just on illegal immigration, but on all person to call for the recall of Parliament over the the other areas of crime that he has mentioned. summer, particularly when we have not even gone into Damian Green: I agree. Indeed, I was making the recess yet. I hope, however, that the Minister has heard more general point that much more effective control of my views on this interesting proposal that was dangled our borders is essential not just in itself, which it is, but before Parliament and then withdrawn. as part of the general fight against serious and organised I am aware that others wish to speak, so I will end crime, which is increasingly international. Indeed, crime with the thought that, for the third time in three years, is being globalised as much as any other aspect of the we have had the potential for a significant improvement world economy. One of the advantages that we ought to of an immigration Bill to be put before the House but have as a country, given that we are a set of islands, is that, yet again, the Government have disappointed us. 251 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 252 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] 9.35 pm has been created by all these Third Reading debates on immigration Bills means that the three of us need to sit Keith Vaz: I did not serve on the Committee for this down, possibly with the Minister, and work out exactly Bill, although I did participate in the Second Reading how many Acts of Parliament on immigration have debate. It is a pleasure to be called to speak now on gone through. Third Reading. I, too, would like to pay tribute to all those who served on the Committee. We should get an This Bill has a number of important features, but I improved Bill out of it, and the fact that the Liberal would like to draw attention to a key point, which I Democrats and the official Opposition both accept that hope is reflected in the two reports that the Select the Government have moved in some areas is a tribute Committee will publish next week. They are the long- to the fact that the Minister has been prepared to listen awaited report on the points-based system, which has to the reasonable proposals from parties on both sides taken us a year to complete, and the report into bogus of the House. He is no doubt relieved to be out of colleges, which has taken only about three weeks because Committee, as he will now be able to get back to the we had clear evidence in front of us. The key point is ministerial correspondence that awaits him. Until yesterday, that further legislation might not be the answer. What the Government were one Minister down, but the Home we actually need is administrative control of the Border Secretary told the Select Committee during his session Agency. This is point that we put to Lin Homer when with us today that another Minister had temporarily she came before us last week and to the Home Secretary been appointed to the Home Office to deal with the today. backlog in correspondence. One of my concerns about the Bill, although I welcome the fact that it clarifies what the Government expect the Mr. Woolas: I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for chief inspector of the Border Agency to do, is that it his support during this period. For the record, may I puts too much responsibility on this individual, who clarify that the backlog in correspondence to which he also came before us to give evidence earlier today. The refers is certainly not my correspondence? I believe that post was created by the Government following the I am the Minister most close to target in that regard. abolition of four other posts, including the independent monitor, the race adviser and the audit committee. Keith Vaz: I do not wish to start a ministerial competition. That, of course, followed on from the statement of a previous Home Secretary who had said that the Home Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford) (Con): The right Office, and particularly the immigration and nationality hon. Gentleman has certainly told us a very interesting directorate, was “not fit for purpose”. piece of information. Could he enlighten the House as I thus worry about the clauses that place a greater to which Minister has been appointed? responsibility on the chief inspector, who, as we tried to point out in our evidence session today, is actually the Keith Vaz: I raised with the Home Secretary a matter independent chief inspector of the UK Border Agency. that I had raised with his predecessor. Of course the The Minister himself wrote to our Committee as a Minister with responsibility for identity is entitled to result of our representations and said that from the her maternity leave, and we wish her well in her motherly time he wrote to us onwards he would always refer to duties. However, we felt that this was a difficult period the chief inspector of the UK Border Agency as “the for the Home Office, and that it was important that her independent chief inspector”, yet when we look at the job should be filled for this limited time—we are all sure Bill, we find that the word “independent” is missing. that she will come back at the end of this period. We It is important for the Minister to stick by the were told by the Home Secretary that it was the commitments he has made to Parliament through the “substantial” figure of Lord Brett— Select Committee. He must ensure that this individual, Mr. Vine, is independent, is given the resources he needs Hon. Members: Who? to complete his job and is given appropriate direction. We were told today that his first report is going to be on Keith Vaz: I am not sure whether the term “substantial” the visa regime in Rome—a wonderful place and a great means that he is very large, or that his curriculum vitae city, but one does not need visas to come from Rome to is very large— the UK. We would much rather that the independent chief inspector of the UK Border Agency were doing Mr. Speaker: Order. The right hon. Gentleman’s speech the job that he is expected to do and that Parliament has was absolutely on track, and he should not be diverted asked him to do, which is independently to inspect the from the path of virtue by the intervention—however UK Border Agency. I hope that the clauses that place well-meaning—of the hon. Member for West Chelmsford new responsibilities on this inspector will enable him to (Mr. Burns). do his work effectively. On citizenship, which is an essential part of the Bill, Keith Vaz: I will certainly accept your ruling, Mr. Speaker. the Select Committee produced an interim report—we Nevertheless, we are glad that this very important Member could not conduct a final analysis of the draft Bill of the other place has been appointed. because so much of it was missing when it came before Yes, this is another Bill, and I hope that the Government us—and we hope that the new arrangements for earned will now have the opportunity to draw a line under the citizenship will be monitored very carefully indeed. I plethora of immigration Bills that we have seen over the am not against people earning the right to come into past 12 years. The hon. Member for Ashford (Damian this country. I came as a first generation immigrant. Green) puts the number of such Bills at nine; the hon. What the Minister will probably find—he has a large Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) thinks that it is diaspora especially from Bangladesh in his Oldham 11. I think that it is 10. Perhaps the smokescreen that constituency—is that there is excitement within communities 253 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 254 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] about gaining citizenship. We are not against provisions be. However, the matter will have to return to Parliament to give people certificates, as people feel very excited so that there is adequate scrutiny of what the Government about becoming British citizens, but I worry that we are propose. I do not think that the Minister is in a position putting on people who try to acquire citizenship under at this moment to place his proposals before Parliament, the arrangements in the Bill a greater onus than we are because I do not think he knows what they are. I on people born in this country who are already British emphasise to him that I do not mean that in a nasty citizens. After all, we expect those who come as immigrants way. and want to be British citizens to sit and take tests on the country’s institutions, whereas many citizens from Mr. Woolas rose— this country do not know what those institutions are. Keith Vaz: Does the Minister know what they are? Mr. Woolas: My right hon. Friend makes the very important point that the applicant for citizenship does Mr. Woolas: I know that my right hon. Friend does not need convincing of its benefit or of the desirability not mean that in a nasty way. I think that he is right. We of integrating and taking up opportunities. Does he are developing those proposals, but we needed the law agree with me that the value of the Bill is that it will help to be established before we could publish the details for to show the indigenous population that that is also the consultation. That is being worked on by stakeholders, case? Does not the fact that people can say that many and it will come back to Parliament. I accept the good ordinarily resident domestic British people could not spirit in which my right hon. Friend is speaking. pass the test rather prove the benefit of the immigrant to our country? Keith Vaz: We look forward to hearing the proposals. My final point relates to human trafficking, which Keith Vaz: I accept that point, but I do not think that has been raised by the hon. Member for Ashford and the public are desperately concerned about legal immigration others. The Bill deals with two aspects of it. When the and the acquisition of citizenship. What concerns them Home Secretary appeared before the Select Committee is illegal immigration, along with the fact that the today, he undertook to examine the very serious allegations Government do not have any control over the large made in The Times and The Guardian today that when number of people who come into this country legally. people were interviewed, they stated that they had only Some of my constituents tell me that it is easier to come entered this country because of the connivance—their into this country illegally than to do so legally because word was “corruption”—among certain officers in the so many requirements are placed on people. I understand UK Border Agency. I have seen no evidence to support the Minister’s point—it is a good point—but I do not those serious allegations, other than the Home Office’s think that we need to prove it to the citizens of this own report. Let me say to the Minister that we accepted country. They accept that someone who has been here the Home Secretary’s undertaking, and we hope that for five years will need to jump over some more hurdles those allegations will be looked into, because this is a in order to become a British citizen, and those hurdles serious matter. are contained in the Bill. We know that the Government want to make a Some of the schemes in the Bill involve volunteering, priority of ending human trafficking, and we know that and that has been discussed. The Select Committee felt they want to do all that they can to work with other that some of the tasks being set for those who wish to countries to stop that evil crime. It is a modern-day acquire citizenship should be monitored. I hope that the example of slavery. We welcome the prospect of an Minister will bear that in mind, along with all the other investigation by the Home Secretary, but we also hope tests that he has proposed for those who wish to become that the Minister will examine the funding regime. He citizens. cannot implement his proposals unless he gives the resources that are needed to organisations such as the Damian Green: Does the right hon. Gentleman he Metropolitan police. share my concern that the hurdles to citizenship which, as he says, are central to the Bill are still wrapped up at Mr. Bone: As usual, the right hon. Gentleman is this stage? Does that not strike him as peculiar, and making a powerful speech, but when it comes to the potentially slightly disturbing? specific issue of human trafficking into this country, is it not a good idea for an independent, arm’s length Keith Vaz: The hon. Gentleman is right: it is disturbing. commissioner to examine the whole situation, so that The truth of the matter, in my view, is that the Government we can be given proper advice and information before themselves do not know what is in the proposals. When making decisions? they discussed the Bill last year—it was then the very big Bill that he described—and placed it before the Keith Vaz: I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman and Select Committee for scrutiny, many of its provisions especially to the hon. Member for Totnes (Mr. Steen) were not put to us, and that is why we stopped our for the work that they do in the all-party group on deliberations. human trafficking. I am not against the idea of appointing I do not think that the Government know what they a commissioner—the difficulty is the scale of the problem want to do about this scheme. That is why they now of human trafficking: it is huge. He or she would need a have a wonderful opportunity—the Minister will be huge number of staff, and I do not think the Government very good at this, because he is extremely good at would be prepared to fund that. engaging with communities—to arrange proper consultation My concern is that the funding for the Metropolitan up and down the country, especially with the groups police’s human trafficking unit, which is vital to what that are most affected, on what the provisions should the Bill proposes, is about to be cut off. The Prime 255 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 14 JULY 2009 Borders, Citizenship and Immigration 256 Bill [Lords] Bill [Lords] [Keith Vaz] In Committee, the Minister described the Bill as “part of the jigsaw puzzle that is trying to prepare the way for the Minister told me at the Dispatch Box that the funding simplification Bill.”––[Official Report, Borders, Citizenship and was going to be increased. Well, we were told today that Immigration Public Bill Committee, 16 June 2009; c. 133.] it will end on 31 March 2010. That is not an increase: Frankly, that is not a great commendation for a piece of zero per cent. is not an increase as far as we are legislation, but it certainly highlights the jagged and concerned. I therefore ask the Minister to go back to uneven way in which the Government have approached the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister, as the immigration and immigration law. It should not be Select Committee will do, and urge them to provide the tackled in this piece-by-piece manner. We need an overview Metropolitan police with the resources that they need. of the whole, and that is why my Liberal Democrat It is not good enough to say to the police, “Get these colleagues and I have repeatedly called for a consolidation resources from your existing budget”. The police themselves and simplification of the law governing immigration have said they will have to cut £428 million from their and asylum. This approach of piecemeal change generates budget to make the savings the Home Office has asked more uncertainty for some of the most vulnerable people them to make in respect of individual police authorities. among migrants and their dependants, and it has resulted We have got to deal with human trafficking with the in many anomalies and inconsistencies. experts who are best placed to solve this problem, so I Another overall concern I have with this Bill is that urge the Minister to go back and look at this issue. large sections of it are still reliant on statutory instruments, Let me say this in absolute conclusion, to allow the leaving many decisions resting with Ministers to make hon. Member for Eastleigh the chance to speak again in at a later date. That is not the way to legislate on the debate. We have gone along with yet another something as important as immigration. The Government immigration Bill. We accept what the Government have are asking us to make serious decisions on vague promises said—that this is necessary for good, firm and fair and proposals. In effect, it is another “Trust me, I’m a immigration control. However, the warning that comes Minister” Bill. We need a strong and cohesive national from me and other Members of the House is that we border force, but there are only tentative steps in that can have all the legislation in the world, but Ministers direction for the UK Border Agency. must direct their attention toward the administrative We have the third longest coastline in Europe, stretching chaos that still exists in the UK Border Agency: a to 7,758 miles, and the number of people entering and backlog of 440,000 cases, supported by taxpayers’ money leaving this country every year is more than three times of £650 million a year. That is what Lin Homer told the size of our population—192 million by air alone in us last week—the cost of servicing that backlog is any given year. So having a competent and well-trained £650 million a year, which is far too much. border force is key to tackling and controlling immigration. I say: make a case to the Treasury, ask for additional However, alarmingly, the Bill still comes with no concrete money—the Select Committee and Members of this provisions on exit checks. That is a major problem, House will help—and get rid of that backlog, and then because we cannot enforce short-term visas if we do not we can look at additional legislation that will help to know when people are leaving. achieve what the Government propose. Legislation without The proposals in part 1 of the Bill are in a tangle, administrative direction and control will not work. I because the Government have focused mainly on extending welcome the clauses in the Bill, but I say to the Minister the powers of the UKBA and immigration officials and that it is in his hands: he can be the first Immigration blurring distinctions between immigration controls and Minister in the history of this country to have cleared criminality.We have avoided some of the more controversial the backlog at the UK Border Agency. I believe he has aspects on citizenship with the concessions on retrospection, the ability, talent and robustness to make sure this will but this would have been a key moment to address the happen. issue of asylum seekers. Several elements of part 2 are discriminatory and much is undefined and awaits delegated 9.53 pm legislation. The opportunity has been missed to deal Chris Huhne: As always, I am delighted to follow the with a pressing problem in this area. right hon. Member for Leicester, East (Keith Vaz). Any We are, however, happy that the Government have Immigration Minister should take very much to heart included the welfare of children in this Bill. That is one his wise words about the importance of administration, of the main reasons why we will not seek to divide the rather than legislation. Whether it is the ninth, ten or House on Third Reading, quite apart from the concessions eleventh offering from this Government in the area of that have been announced today. Clause 56, in particular, immigration law, it is simply too many Bills. When the is one of the Bill’s redeeming provisions. The intention right hon. Gentleman and I were last jousting on this behind the clause is good, and our amendment sought topic, I think we only half in jest said that the Home to mark out more clearly the duties that we thought the Office should be attempting to re-tread some of its Secretary of State should have towards children— lawyers involved in drafting legislation into dealing [Interruption.] with the legacy. This latest Bill proves the old adage that quantity Mr. Speaker: Order. I apologise for interrupting the does not mean quality. It is as inaccessible and ill hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne). I say to the thought out as many of the other previous efforts at hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Chope) that it is reform. Although we are absolutely delighted and somewhat the height of bad manners to wander into the Chamber surprised today that we can count no fewer than three in the middle of a Third Reading speech and chunter victories for the Opposition—on retrospection, the common away from a sedentary position. It is rank discourtesy. travel area and judicial review—this remains a Bill that is a pudding without a theme. Chris Huhne: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 257 14 JULY 2009 Business without Debate 258

Abolishing the traumatic experience of dawn raids is HUMAN FERTILISATION AND EMBRYOLOGY a key concern of the Liberal Democrats. We also oppose That the draft Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Special the detention of children in detention centres, but as the Exemption) Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House Government have come up with no plans to stop children on 17 June, be approved.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) being held in that way, we wanted to use the Bill to Question agreed to. highlight provisions that we feel should cover them if Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and when they are detained. Order No. 118(6)), Mr. Bone: The all-party group on human trafficking CONSTITUTIONAL LAW battles with the problem that if children—in this case, That the draft Scottish Parliament (Elections etc.) (Amendment) girls of 15 or 16 who have been forced into prostitution—are Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 10 June, be not in secure accommodation, they can fall right back approved.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) into the hands of the traffickers. That is a difficult issue, Question agreed to. and I would be grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s view on it. Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Chris Huhne: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue, because it is important. ELECTRICITY One of the most alarming features is the number of That the draft Electricity and Gas (Carbon Emissions Reduction) children who disappear back into the hands of traffickers. (Amendment) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on There are many language problems and there are problems 1 July, be approved.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) of not generating the sort of warmth to which children Question agreed to. will naturally respond. I fear that given the guillotine Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing that we are under, however, that this will require debate Order No. 118(6)), on another day. In conclusion, we feel that this Bill is a hotch-potch ELECTRICITY of provisions. There should have been an overall attempt That the draft Electricity and Gas (Community Energy Saving at simplification— Programme) Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 2 July, be approved.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) 10 pm Question agreed to. Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 2 June). The Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed EUROPEAN UNION DOCUMENTS from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Bill Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing be now read the Third time. Order No. 119(11)), Question agreed to. Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed, with CONFLICTS OF JURISDICTIONS IN CRIMINAL amendments. PROCEEDINGS That this House takes note of European Union Document No. 8338/09, Draft Council framework decision on prevention Business without Debate and settlement of conflicts of jurisdiction in criminal proceedings– general approach; and endorses the Government’s support of the proposal.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) Question agreed to. DELEGATED LEGISLATION Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE Motion made, HUMAN FERTILISATION AND EMBRYOLOGY That, at the sittings on Monday 20 July and on Tuesday 21 July, the Speaker shall not adjourn the House until any That the draft Human Fertilisation and Embryology (Appeals) message from the Lords has been received, any Committee to Regulations 2009, which were laid before this House on 3 June, be draw up Reasons which has been appointed at that sitting has approved.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) reported, and he has notified the Royal Assent to Acts agreed Question agreed to. upon by both Houses.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)), Hon. Members: Object. Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): On a point HUMAN FERTILISATION AND EMBRYOLOGY of order, Mr. Speaker. We are approaching motion 11— That the draft Human Fertilisation and Embryology [Interruption.] Motion 12; I apologise. It is a little (Consequential Amendments and Transitional and Saving Provisions) unhelpful to Members of this House, as the Order Order 2009, which was laid before this House on 3 June, be Paper seems to be describing the motion in the wrong approved.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) way. It says: Question agreed to. “If opposed, this item cannot be taken after 10.00 pm.” Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing and: Order No. 118(6)), “No debate after 10.00 pm.” 259 Business without Debate14 JULY 2009 Business without Debate 260

[Mr. Peter Bone] I have looked at what happens with Scottish Grand Committee and so on, and I wish to pray that in aid as a Normally, if a Member objected, that motion would precedent. For example, the motion for a sitting of that then have to be brought back by the Government. I Committee will state that it will take place in the council have spent some hours studying Standing Orders today, chamber, Stirling. This motion is not good enough. however, and that appears not to be the case. If we object, a deferred Division will occur. As you know, Mr. Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. Mr. Speaker, the motion is in its entirety—except for a Gentleman for his point of order. I will not get drawn very small part—exactly the same motion as was rejected into a wider debate about Scotland but, on advice, I by this House just a few days ago. You will also know think that I can safely say that there is no requirement that under Standing Orders one has to rescind a motion for a designated, precise location of the kind that he before one can bring it back again. I know, Mr. Speaker, specifies. I have looked at page 113 of the Standing that you are determined that this House has the power Orders, and at Standing Order 117A(2)(a), which states to control the Executive. It seems to me that this is a that a Regional Grand Committee can prime example of such behaviour, because not only do we have, shall we say, misleading information on the “sit on a specified day at a specified place in the region to which it relates or at Westminster”. Order Paper, but the Government are bending, if not breaking wholesale, the rules of this House to get their The answer—[Interruption.] If the hon. Member for way. I hope that you might be able to say something that Wellingborough will allow me to deal with the point: I will stop the Government Whip from moving motion 12. appreciate his eager anticipation of what he thinks that I am about to say, but if he could contain himself for a Mr. Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. moment he might hear what I in fact have to say in Gentleman for his point of order, to which my response response to the legitimate point of order from the hon. is as follows. Motion 12— Member for Thurrock (Andrew Mackinlay). The answer is that “Bedford”, for the purposes of the Standing Mrs. Sharon Hodgson (Gateshead, East and Washington, Orders, is sufficient. West) (Lab): I beg to move—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Thurrock may strongly disapprove Mr. Speaker: I am extremely grateful to the hon. of that and think that it should be subject to change Lady, who certainly cannot be accused of napping. and improvement, but my job tonight is simply to Motion 12 is correct and in order. The rubric is respond to his point of order and to tell him not what incorrect and the hon. Member for Wellingborough ought to be, but what is. I can advise him that “Bedford” (Mr. Bone) is right to highlight that point. I understand is sufficient under the Standing Orders. why he was led down the path down which he has been led, but the House is bound by its Standing Orders not Andrew Mackinlay: Further to that point of order, by the rubrics. The Table Office has asked me to convey Mr. Speaker. With respect, I hope that you will reflect its apologies for the error. on this matter overnight. I prayed Scotland in aid I can also say to the hon. Gentleman that it is true because the precedents show that the motions for all the that a similar motion was on the Order Paper, I think in other Grand Committees specify where they are to take June—if I am correctly advised, on 25 June. The hon. place. They do not just name a town. Logically, one Gentleman said that this motion was almost entirely the could turn up at Bedford and ask, “Has anyone found a same but for a small point, and I do think that the “but Grand Committee anywhere? Point me to the Grand for the small point” is rather significant in this matter. Committee.” That would be like asking, “Is this the The original motion had proposed that the meeting on road to British socialism?” I think that such motions Wednesday 9 September should take place between need to be specific. 1 o’clock and 3.30. It is now intended that it should take place between 2 o’clock—[Interruption.] Order. I do Mr. Speaker: The hon. Gentleman’s views are very not need advice from the hon. Member for Reigate clearly and firmly on the record. As he knows, I always (Mr. Blunt) on this matter. I am giving a full and listen to him with interest and respect, but we cannot comprehensive reply to the point of order properly now get involved in a wider debate about other locations raised by the hon. Member for Wellingborough. That to which he thinks that a reformed or better Standing revised time is a noticeable difference, the motion is in Order should, in different circumstances, apply. What I order, the error has been explained and I hope that the am saying to him is that a number of these motions hon. Gentleman would agree that that is a full and fair have been passed previously, and that the motion with response to the point of order that he has properly which we are dealing tonight—or, if I may say so, were raised. about to deal—relates not to Bedford or indeed any part of Scotland but to the east midlands and, within Andrew Mackinlay (Thurrock) (Lab): On a point of that, probably to Nottingham. order, Mr. Speaker. By coincidence, my point is not unrelated to the previous one. The motions for the Regional Grand Committees state where the sittings Mr. Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con) rose— “shall” take place. Motion 12 refers to the sitting in Nottingham, but I am interested in the one for Bedford Mr. Speaker: In a moment. It is to the substance of on 8 September. The Standing Orders of the House motion 12, which the hon. Member for Gateshead, East require that the location in such motions must be and Washington, West (Mrs. Hodgson) was ready to “specified”. For instance, they must specify a particular move a moment ago, that I want very soon to return—but council chamber, community centre or whatever. Just I have a feeling that there is a point of order beating in naming the town or city is pretty bland and difficult. the breast of the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr. Blunt). 261 Business without Debate14 JULY 2009 Business without Debate 262

Mr. Blunt: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The I am advised by those who know that the precise sedentary intervention for which you reprimanded me location is the council chamber. I hope that the hon. was based on my experience in a Standing Committee Gentleman is not going to spoil a good point by asking when the Government were defeated on a programme me without notice to demonstrate that I know precisely motion. They came back after some discussions with a where in the building in Bedford the council chamber is, motion that was extremely similar to the original one. I because I would not be able to satisfy him. It is safe to confess that as the Whip on that Committee, I was not say that the hon. Member needs to know in the next few fast enough on my feet to object to the motion. I took days. I think that I have given the basic answer, and if private advice later and was told that the motion was so there is any further scope for clarification, I am sure similar to the one that the Committee had rejected that, that between now and the summer recess it will indeed had I objected, there would have been grounds for the be provided. Chair to consider that the motion was in violation of It was an interesting series of points of order, but we Standing Orders. should now move to motion 12. Can you give guidance to the House? The House rejected a very similar motion on the Regional Grand Committee on 25 June. The Government have moved EAST MIDLANDS REGIONAL GRAND the timing by one hour, which does not appear to be COMMITTEE consistent with the spirit of the position that the House Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing took on that motion. Is it really satisfactory to have this Order No. 177A(3)), narrow difference? When a motion is defeated, how similar a motion can one come back with? That the East Midlands Regional Grand Committee shall meet in Nottingham on Wednesday 9 September between 2.00 pm and 4.30 pm to take questions under Standing Order No. 117B Mr. Speaker: I have listened to that point of order, (Regional Grand Committees (questions for oral answer)) and to which the hon. Gentleman developed at a leisurely pace, hold a general debate on Building Britain’s Future: how the and I have to say to him that the insertion of the word region will make the most of the upturn. —(Mrs. Hodgson.) “really” in the middle of his question does not make the The Speaker’s opinion as to the decision of the Question question any more valid or legitimate than it would being challenged, the Division was deferred until Wednesday otherwise be. For the hon. Gentleman simply to say, “Is 15 July (Standing Order No. 41A). it really satisfactory?”, I am afraid will not do. I know that the hon. Gentleman would not for one moment seek to entice or inveigle me into a continuing WELSH GRAND COMMITTEE argument about a matter upon which I have already Ordered, ruled. I know that he would not do that because, as my That— long experience demonstrates to me, he always wants to (1) the matter of the Ninth Report from the Welsh Affairs behave in an orderly manner. So I want to say once and Committee, Proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative for all to the hon. Gentleman, who I know will get it Competence) (Welsh Language) Order 2009, HC 348, and its and accept it straight away, that the point has been implications for Wales be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee raised by the hon. Member for Wellingborough and for its consideration; and indirectly by others, and I have already ruled on it. (2) the Committee shall meet at Westminster on Wednesday 14 October at 9.25 am and between 2.00 pm and 4.00 pm to consider If, at another point in time, the hon. Gentleman the matter referred to it under paragraph (1) above.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) wants to have discussions with a variety of people over a cup of tea or in some other way on these matters, that is open to him. But as far as tonight, the Standing Orders and this motion are concerned, I have ruled on SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE REFORM OF the position, and that, frankly, is the end of the matter. THE HOUSE OF COMMONS Motion made, (1) That a Select Committee be appointed to consider and Mr. David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD): On a make recommendations on the following matters: point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was just reflecting on the point made by the hon. Member for Thurrock (Andrew (a) the appointment of members and chairmen of select committees; Mackinlay), and I perfectly well understand your ruling that the motions are in order, but it occurs to me that (b) scheduling business in the House; somebody needs to tell the hon. Gentleman where to (c) enabling the public to initiate debates and proceedings in go—[Laughter.]—and there are but four sitting days the House; and before the long recess for that process to take place. (d) such other matters as appear to the Committee to be closely Perhaps you could discover what the mechanism is for connected with the matters set out above, and to report on these hon. Members who will wish to attend, no doubt, the matters by 13 November 2009; Grand Committee relevant to their region to find out (2) That the Committee also consider such other matters as where they are to find the Committees in these large may be referred to it 10 from time to time; cities when we are about to go into recess and they will (3) That the Committee consist of eighteen Members; not be in their normal offices. (4) That Mr Graham Allen, Mr Clive Betts, Mr Graham Brady, Mr David Clelland, Mr David Drew, Natascha Engel, Dr Evan Harris, David Howarth, Mr Michael Jack, Mr Greg Knight, Mr. Speaker: That can be regarded as quite a helpful Mr Elfyn Llwyd, Mr Chris Mullin, Dr Nick Palmer, 15 Martin point of order. The hon. Gentleman’s concern for the Salter, Dr Phyllis Starkey, Mr Andrew Tyrie, Dr Tony Wright and proper sense of direction, in a geographical sense, of Sir George Young be members of the Committee; the hon. Member for Thurrock is greatly appreciated. (5) That Dr Tony Wright be Chairman of the Committee; 263 Business without Debate 14 JULY 2009 264

(6) That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers Bournemouth and Poole FE College and records, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House, to adjourn from place to place, 20 to report from time to Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House time and to appoint specialist advisers; do now adjourn.—(Mrs. Hodgson.) (7) That this Order be a Standing Order of the House until the end of the present 10.18 pm Parliament. —(Mrs. Hodgson.) Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): It is my pleasure to Hon. Members: Object. have secured this debate on the future of Bournemouth and Poole further education college. First, may I welcome Mr. Bernard Jenkin (North Essex) (Con): On a point the Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships of order, Mr. Speaker. Would I be right in saying, even and Consumer Affairs to his new responsibilities? I if it is rather an irony, that in an effort to set up a have a feeling that he will attend many such debates Committee that may well strengthen the House’s power about the future of further education colleges up and over its own business, we are entirely reliant on the down the land. I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Government to grant time to debate the motion setting Christchurch (Mr. Chope) for being present at this late up that Committee? Am I right in saying that only the hour, and my neighbour, the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset Leader of the House, in a business statement, can and North Poole (Annette Brooke), who has also come allocate time for discussion of the motion? to support me in this debate. Bournemouth and Poole have a great educational Mr. Speaker: That is a sophisticated point of order, sector. We have a very good university, Bournemouth but I think that I can safely say to the hon. Gentleman university, which happens to be in Poole. It educates that irony is not a matter for the Chair. thousands of people. We have a good education system in our area, with many international schools. Bournemouth and Poole college is very well regarded, and thousands PETITION of people have passed through it. It is vital to our area that we should have that place of learning. The college Wind Farm Development (Wales) has been particularly blessed, because it has had a series of principals who are extremely talented and have always 10.17 pm advanced the interests of the college, namely Richard Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Mr. Speaker, Dimbleby, Rowland Foote and, more recently, Lawrence the miraculous conversion of dry points of order into Vincent, who was the deputy principal but has now remarkable and entertaining levity worthy of “Today in taken over. They have all wanted the best for Bournemouth Parliament” is a tribute to your speakership. I am and Poole college. almost ashamed to bring the much more serious matter When the Learning and Skills Council first set out of this petition to the attention of the House, but I the Building Colleges for the Future programme, must. Bournemouth and Poole college thought that it was a The petition is about a matter of great concern to great opportunity. It assembled plans in March 2008 residents of Welshpool and, indeed, my whole constituency for a £130 million redevelopment. The college has a of Montgomeryshire. They are mightily exercised about disadvantage in that it has a number of centres, principally the potential impact on road transport of the construction in Poole and in Bournemouth. The programme seemed of a very large number of wind turbines in the county a great opportunity to refurbish and reinvigorate its of Powys. Leaving aside arguments about the questionable buildings in order to provide first-rate education for the effectiveness of turbines as energy-producing sources, future. my constituents specifically wanted me to raise their The scheme that the college drew up was for a worries about the logistics of transporting a very large £130 million redevelopment, at both Poole and amount of material by road, the effects on local congestion Bournemouth. Many of the buildings, especially those and general traffic flow, and the damage to existing in Bournemouth, have asbestos, are not fit for purpose infrastructure. The petitioners include the town clerk, and need refurbishment. Planning went in in October Robert Robinson, Councillor John Meredith, Councillor and November 2008 on the basis of the 80 per cent. Estelle Bleivas, and the outstanding mayor of Welshpool, grant, and the college proceeded, having consistently Councillor Ann Holloway. The petition reads: engaged in a dialogue with the LSC about the way it The Humble Petition of Robert Andrew Robinson Town Clerk was going, and was very disappointed in December of Welshpool Town Council, 2008 when it was told that there was a freeze. Initially Sheweth that the Communities of Mid Wales (and in particular the college did not worry too much about that because Welshpool) are deeply concerned about the effect of Wind Farm it thought its plans had been well drawn up and it had transpiration in Mid Wales and in particular through Welshpool been in dialogue with the Learning and Skills Council. which is proposed over a sustained period. The college was doubly disappointed that in March Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your Honourable House 2009 the freeze became more permanent and it became will urge the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to clear that the LSC had misjudged, to put it kindly, the initiate a public inquiry on this matter before any Wind Farm level of bids across the country. Many colleges, some of Development is approved or allowed to take place and to ensure which had already started building, could not proceed that full, proper and open consideration occurs prior to implementation of the project in Mid Wales. with their projects. We know that in April 2009 the Minister’s predecessor, the hon. Member for Birmingham, And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray, &c. Erdington (Mr. Simon), set up a review under Sir Andrew [P000393] Foster to look into the problem. Subsequently the LSC decided that of the 144 colleges that put in bids, many 265 Bournemouth and Poole FE College14 JULY 2009 Bournemouth and Poole FE College 266 in the expectation that they would be successful, only 13 College representatives have had a dialogue and meetings so far would be given approval. Many colleges have with the LSC. They had a meeting about a week ago, in incurred considerable expense on architects and fees, which they gave further details to the LSC, and although and some have already started works. it took them away, it has not said an awful lot yet. We As I understand the situation, the next review will be are not very hopeful about getting all our £11 million in 2011 and there is no guarantee that at that point back, but we need a substantial amount of it back if Bournemouth and Poole or any of the other colleges there are not to be consequences for the college—in will be able to go ahead. I hope that when the Minister terms of either laying off lecturers, who are vital, or replies, he will give some indication when we are likely restricting the courses that are available to my constituents, to see a start, if not of the whole £130 million the hon. Lady’s constituents and, indeed, the constituents redevelopment, of at least part of the development that of my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. They has been planned. Of the 13 schemes that are proceeding, also expect the college to provide facilities for their not one is in the south-west of England. One has to constituents. drive about 100 miles from Bournemouth or Poole to I want to hear from the Minister about the strategy. London to find a scheme that has been given the Thirteen of the 144 projects have been given the go-ahead, go-ahead. and I am sure he realises that many of the other That clearly leaves the college with a problem. colleges, which have been left hanging in the wind, need Bournemouth and Poole college is vital for training some funding to cover the expenditure that they have many thousands of people across a range of ages for the already undertaken. Indeed, if the projects go ahead in world of work. We have gone through a very difficult a year or two or three, some of that expenditure will not economic period, and the college is vital to my constituents, have been wasted. The plans and work that have been and to many of the constituents of my hon. Friend the undertaken will still be important for proceeding with Member for Christchurch and of the hon. Member for the projects. However, we need some answers and there Mid-Dorset and North Poole, who I understand in a is a degree of urgency. past life worked in Bournemouth and Poole college as a The college principal has made the point to me that lecturer. The bill facing the college will have a very real September is the beginning of the new college year, that effect unless the LSC addresses it and starts to compensate it will have a new intake and that unless the LSC quickly the college for some of its expenses. indicates the funding sources that will be provided, The college started off with a surplus of £5 million in tough decisions will have to be taken. the bank. It has always been cautious and always wanted to expand, so it started by accumulating funds. It has spent £11 million on the project so far, on the basis that Mr. Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con): I it would get funding. If the project is written off, that congratulate my hon. Friend on introducing the debate, will lead to an operating deficit in 2008-09 of £7.5 million. because it is about an issue that is causing enormous In these difficult times, that is a considerable sum, concern in our area. Does he agree that one of the which will have to be written off. questions is whether the Government will provide an indemnity against the costs incurred by Bournemouth Annette Brooke (Mid-Dorset and North Poole) (LD): and Poole college as a result of the gross negligence and I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the incompetence of the Learning and Skills Council. That debate. Does he agree that we have a short-term and a is effectively the cause of the funding crisis, and the slightly longer-term problem? The short-term problem LSC is going to be abolished, so the least the Government could almost be described as a crisis. The college is can do is to indemnify the college against the reasonable running a huge deficit and people are gravely concerned costs that it has incurred as a result of the LSC’s about the future. We seek reassurance from the Minister incompetence. that stop-gap funding can be found to make good what has been undertaken on firm promises from the Learning and Skills Council. Mr. Syms: My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and the fact that the LSC chief executive resigned, was Mr. Syms: The hon. Lady makes a very good point. pushed out or whatever, is a sign that it misjudged the Although approval has been given to 13 of the 144 colleges whole process. Further education colleges have been that bid, many that have not been given approval have massively under-invested in over the past 20 to 30 years; incurred major expenditure, and there is a serious problem I do not think that any of us would underestimate that. with trying to tide them over, so that in one, two or three The Government’s intention to rebuild many colleges is years, work on some of them can go ahead. In the short worthy, but the £2 billion bill was unexpected. Indeed, term, however, the situation has given them major there are not many Members with a college, either in problems, and many of them, as I think the Minister their constituency or nearby, that has not faced a similar will acknowledge in his speech, are vital for the economic problem. There has been a monumental misjudgment, recovery of our country—for retraining young people, but I do not want to focus too much on that, because we old people and workers. There is a problem, therefore, need to know when we will be able to start to improve and I am sure that the Minister will not run away from the buildings in Bournemouth and Poole—not with the it. I am perfectly sure that, when he opened his red box, £130 million perhaps, but something. We need an the first thing that he took out read “Learning and indication—even a wink across the Chamber will do. Skills Council, Building Colleges for the Future.” We We know that the amount of money expended will need a resolution to the problem quickly. cause a short-term problem to the college, and that will The college principal tells me that it is living off a have an impact on turning out many thousands of £600,000 overdraft and will need to raise a further people for the world of work in our area. We need a £900,000 to keep running until the end of September. strategy for dealing with that, and we need answers. 267 Bournemouth and Poole FE College14 JULY 2009 Bournemouth and Poole FE College 268

[Mr. Syms] Learning and Skills Council on this large and ambitious redevelopment project for a number of years. In June I am sure that the Minister, who is new to his job, has 2007, it received approval in principle to the application a spring in his step. He has a great opportunity to make in relation to the new proposals for the redevelopment his name in this Chamber and will be able to fill us in of the Poole and Bournemouth sites, and it subsequently with a little more information about what Bournemouth worked closely with the LSC capital team to develop and Poole will get towards its costs—if not every penny, those plans further. The original proposal had a total then at least a pathway for dealing with a very serious cost of £102 million, and the college was seeking LSC problem that needs to be addressed in a matter of days grant support of £88.4 million. Given the scale of that and weeks, because term time in September will come proposal, it was agreed that it would be more manageable very quickly, and choices have to be made. if it were to be treated as two separate developments. As I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch a result, the college has focused its efforts on developing and my neighbour, the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset the Bournemouth site first. and North Poole, for being here, and I look forward to As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Bournemouth hearing what the Minister has to say about this subject, proposal in itself is large, with forecast costs totalling which is vital for many thousands of our constituents. just under £50 million. In developing that ambitious proposal, the college has continued to work closely and 10.30 pm positively with the LSC. I know that, as he said, the LSC has had discussions with the executive team of the The Minister for Further Education, Skills, Apprenticeships college. I understand that they may have been meeting and Consumer Affairs (Kevin Brennan): I congratulate today to further the discussions on the college’s current the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Syms) on securing this situation following the recent announcement. The LSC debate on further education provision in Bournemouth accepts that the college is central to learning provision and Poole. Of course, I agree that further education is across the local area of Bournemouth, Poole and Dorset. extremely important, and the Government put a great deal of importance on it. It has a crucial role to play in I understand that, as the hon. Gentleman mentioned, helping people to make the most of their talents and the college has improved its quality and results over the their lives, and in building Britain’s future. It does that past four years. I am pleased to hear about the work day in, day out, by improving people’s job prospects that it is doing to engage with learners in the area who and helping employers to achieve growth by improving have been hit by the economic downturn. It has made a work force skills and strengthening local communities. successful bid to deliver part of the special package of support during the downturn. In particular, it will deliver As I think that the hon. Gentleman acknowledged, in some of the 75,000 extra further education places around recent years there has been an increase in overall public the country for those who have been on jobseeker’s investment in the further education system—by a record allowance for six months or more. I am pleased that it is 53 per cent. in real terms between 1997-98 and 2007-08. now working with the LSC, nextstep, the nationwide Total investment in adult skills was more than £4.7 billion skills advice service and Jobcentre Plus to raise awareness in 2008-09 and is planned to increase to £5 billion in of that, and that it has submitted a bid for the entry to 2009-10. That means that more than 3 million adult employment programme, which will provide employment- learners are benefiting from further education each focused learning for those who are not yet ready to year. I know that hon. Members would agree that in the enter full-time work. current economic downturn it is more important than ever that we invest in learning and skills. The Government The college is bidding for other funding announced have offered a package of measures that includes boosting as part of the package of measures to boost skills and apprenticeships by a further 35,000 and providing learning in the downturn, and I encourage it to continue £83 million over two years to provide an extra 75,000 to do that. I welcome the fact that it has been designing further education places over 2009-10 and 2010-11. its own programmes to meet the needs of local businesses. Its business enterprise unit has been working in partnership The hon. Gentleman has been a keen advocate in this with local business and industry to boost the skills of place of the capital proposals of Bournemouth and the regional work force and to help companies through Poole college, the local college of the hon. Gentleman these tough economic times. I accept that there is excellent and his colleagues. He intervened in an Adjournment practice going on in Bournemouth and Poole college, debate earlier this year, and he has asked a specific and I know from representations that I have received written question about Government plans on capital from other hon. Members that many other colleges funding in further education. He took up the invitation around the country are doing similarly good work on by my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for 16-to-18 apprenticeships, 19-plus apprenticeships and Birmingham, Erdington (Mr. Simon), to discuss individual so on. cases. I understand that subsequently, on 23 March, the Capital projects in general, and particularly the project hon. Gentleman and the college principal, Lawrence at Bournemouth and Poole, are part of a record level of Vincent, met my hon. Friend and discussed at some investment, and it is fair to say that for a long period length the college’s capital proposal. In recognition of there was very little investment in FE. I acknowledge the wider importance of the college to its local area, I the mistakes that were made by the LSC, and previous understand that on 16 April the chief executive of Ministers have apologised to the House for what happened. Bournemouth borough council wrote to my hon. Friend, We have had the Foster review, which set out the problems adding her support to the college’s capital proposal. that occurred in relation to the capital programme. It is therefore fair to say that a considerable degree of information has been given to previous Ministers about Mr. Syms: An apology is great, and the Minister has the proposal. Indeed, having looked at it prior to this mentioned the good things that the college is doing, but debate, I note that the college has been working with the it will not be able to continue doing them unless there is 269 Bournemouth and Poole FE College14 JULY 2009 Bournemouth and Poole FE College 270 an offset to the costs that it has already committed. It I know and appreciate that there have been grave may not be a 100 per cent. offset, but can he say a little difficulties with the FE capital programme, but let us more about what will happen? not forget that the Government’s policy has meant that, since 2001, there have been 700 such projects throughout Kevin Brennan: I will come to that point. The LSC the country and nearly 330 colleges have been funded. has indicated that it will meet its obligations on costs That has transformed the further education estate for that have been incurred on the development. However, I learners. have to say to the hon. Gentleman that a blank cheque In 2008-09, the LSC supported 253 schemes that is not available to FE colleges around the country for were under way or had full approval to go ahead. No costs incurred on development plans that were not college with full and final approval to go ahead has those agreed with the LSC. failed to proceed. We will spend £2.6 billion in this comprehensive spending review period. We should Mr. Syms: The original proposal was for 80 per cent. remember that, in 1997, not a single penny was spent on funding, and I do not think that it would be unreasonable the further education estate in this country. We have put if there were now 80 per cent. funding of the up-front in record Government investment, which means that we costs. I appreciate that the Minister may not be able to can continue to develop further education and to unlock indicate that, but that is the sort of level that would be people’s talent to meet the economic challenges and to needed to help out Bournemouth and Poole college so create a fairer society. that it can keep first-rate education. I accept the hon. Gentleman’s disappointment and Kevin Brennan: I would encourage the college to the criticisms about what went wrong with the expectations continue its discussions with the LSC to identify the that had been built up for his college and throughout costs with which the LSC may be able to assist. It has the country. set aside a sum of money to do that, and to help colleges with their genuine development costs. I can Annette Brooke: I concur that there has been a good only encourage the college to continue those discussions record of investment, which was long overdue, in further about the plans that it has been developing and the education. However, before the Minister concludes, will development costs that it has incurred. he give us an idea of the time frame in which the LSC is The capital programme process, to which the hon. working during the short-term funding crisis because Gentleman referred, and the recent announcement followed confidence must be restored in our local area to ensure a prioritisation process after the Foster review earlier that people enrol on the courses? this year. As he said, the LSC announced that 13 college capital projects can proceed this summer, as long as Kevin Brennan: I agree with the hon. Lady, and I they reduce their costs to a reasonable level. The 13 college think local Members can help in restoring that confidence. projects were chosen following a robust and thorough I am sure that Bournemouth and Poole college has a assessment by independent consultants against newly bright future, despite the disappointment that its current agreed prioritisation criteria. Each project had been plans for redevelopment cannot go ahead. I have given assessed as having the greatest impact on local education an assurance that the LSC will not allow any college to and skills, and on contribution to local economic and become insolvent, and I have also suggested that the regeneration priorities; links to other funding or projects; college should continue its discussions with the LSC the current condition of the estate; and value for money. about the development costs for which it may be able to That process built on the recommendations that Sir be reimbursed in relation to its capital project, without Andrew Foster made in his report about the capital the LSC accepting a blank cheque for Bournemouth programme. and Poole or any other college across the country. The LSC worked closely with key stakeholders, including FE colleges are making a huge difference to the lives the Association of Colleges, the 157 Group, the Sixth of students and learners across the country. I am sure Form Colleges Forum and the Association of National that Bournemouth and Poole college can continue to do Specialist Colleges, as well as the regional development that, and although it has not been successful in the agencies and the Local Government Association. However, current round, it is important that we continue to invest as the hon. Gentleman said, many colleges could not be in colleges in the future. A future capital programme is funded in this round, and the next steps start this planned, and I encourage Opposition Members to talk autumn, when the LSC will consult the sector further to to their Front-Bench teams about ensuring that we agree a robust, fair and transparent process for prioritising continue this investment into the future, and I encourage the capital investment programme for the next spending colleges to speak to the learning and skills councils review period starting in 2011-12. about other ways of proceeding with capital projects. It The LSC has worked with colleges throughout the is important that we continue to invest in colleges for development of capital proposals, and is committed to the future. meeting all its contractual obligations on development Question put and agreed to. costs. It is also committed to ensuring that no college will be allowed to become insolvent as a result of decisions about the capital programme. I hope that that 10.45 pm is helpful. House adjourned.

1WH 14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 2WH

least because of divisions within the community that we Westminster Hall resolved in part through the establishment of the Bishops Castle Stone House forum, which I was pleased to chair Tuesday 14 July 2009 and through which Shropshire County primary care trust and all interested groups in the community could work together to support refurbishment of the hospital, [MRS.JOAN HUMBLE in the Chair] which I am pleased to say is under way. Shropshire County PCT, led by its responsive chief Health Care (Shropshire) executive Jo Chambers, is investing some £1.2 million in Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting that major refurbishment, the first phase of which took be now adjourned.—(Mr. Heppell.) place in 2008-09, with an upgrade to the roof and new windows. In the completed project there will be a 9.30 am new main entrance and much-improved reception area, 16 in-patient beds, of which four will be en suite single Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): It is a great pleasure rooms, and a significantly expanded out-patient and to serve under your chairmanship, Mrs. Humble. We ambulatory care zone, which together will enable an know each other from our work on the Select Committee extended range of GP, nurse and therapy-led clinics to on Work and Pensions in years gone by. be delivered locally. I am particularly pleased to have this opportunity to The redevelopment will occur in two phases. The first review with the Minister the state of health care in phase, which commenced last month and will end in Shropshire. I will mostly discuss the facilities in my October, will mainly refurbish the in-patient areas and constituency of Ludlow, but I will touch on the county’s the second phase—from November, concluding in March wider health care economy. I am delighted to see so 2010—will focus on out-patients and the ambulatory many colleagues from Shropshire here today. I will, of physiotherapy areas. During the refurbishment, existing course, be pleased to accept their contributions, which services continue to be provided locally, which is critical may be more focused on the acute hospitals in their given the physical isolation of this very rural population, constituencies, whereas I will focus mostly on the which is served by the community hospital. community hospitals in mine. There will be 10 in-patient beds remaining available I begin with a slight sense of déjà vu. One of the first throughout the build period and out-patient clinics will Westminster Hall debates that I was fortunate to secure be moved temporarily to the Bishops Castle GP practice, in the year following my election to this place was on although physiotherapy will remain on the site. One of the same topic of health care services in Shropshire. the 16 in-patient beds will be a bespoke palliative care That debate was held on 25 January 2006, during the patient room with an adjoining relatives’ room and period in which I was helping to lead the campaign to shared access to a walled garden outside. This will save all three community hospitals in my constituency, become increasingly important as the ageing demographic which faced the real threat of closure because of severe of the area places greater demands on end-of-life care. I financial deficits in the local health care economy. will return to that in a moment. I fear that we are in danger of coming full circle, This has been a real community effort, with significant because after a couple of years of getting NHS finances input to the design of the facilities by local GPs and in Shropshire into balance, the county again faces a hospital staff, and fundraising for equipment organised severe deficit. However, before I turn to those issues and by the hospital’s league of friends and staff, who, with look to the Minister for some answers, I would like to the PCT, have secured Department of Health-King’s touch briefly on some positive achievements in Shropshire Fund funding through the Enhancing the Healing health care since those dark days. Environment programme, which the Minister will be I recall a cold, wet Saturday morning a couple of familiar with. I shall single out a local GP, Dr. Adrian weeks before that debate in early 2006, when I led a Penney, who raised some £10,000 for this palliative care march of more than 4,000 people from a rally in the scheme by participating in the five peaks challenge last castle grounds in Bridgnorth to the community hospital, year. Those people are all to be congratulated, and which was threatened with closure. Within two years, those are the two main success stories in my part of Bridgnorth community hospital had been transformed, Shropshire in recent years. with the opening of a new wing re-establishing the Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I congratulate maternity unit with additional out-patient services and the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Does he clinics. The hospital’s manager, who oversaw that significant agree that the experiences that he has described are a redevelopment, has just been promoted, and rightly role model for what could be done on my side of the so—Bridgnorth’s loss will be Wolverhampton’s gain. I border, right next to him, to carry on supporting the place on the record my thanks to her and to the Bridgnorth operations of Welshpool, Machynlleth, Llanidloes and general practitioners, particularly Dr. Pam Yuille, who Newtown hospitals, all of which have been threatened campaigned so hard to ensure that that development with closure at certain times? He has proved that a went ahead. The town’s GP practice has also been proper strategic initiative, led by him and supported by relocated to a new purpose-built health centre adjacent local people, supports local health services and is ultimately to the hospital, with improved parking and access for cheaper than shutting local services down and sending the GPs to in-patient beds next door. people to district hospitals. On the same day in January 2006, some 2,000 people marched through the streets of Bishops Castle to demand Mr. Dunne: I am grateful that the hon. Gentleman that Stone House community hospital should be saved. has joined today’s debate, not only because we share a This was a much tougher fight for lots of reasons, not border—some of his constituents will take advantage of 3WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 4WH

[Mr. Dunne] Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): I agree with my hon. Friend about progress on reducing the facilities in Bishops Castle, because it is adjacent—but the deficit, but does he agree that a large part of that because Shrewsbury hospital is the main acute centre deficit resulted from the previous chief executive, who for his constituents. We share a lot of health issues in submitted a fake CV and had inappropriate qualifications Shropshire and across the border into Wales, but although for being a chief executive? When I tackled the then he is right in saying that it is important that the local Secretary of State for Health about the matter, I was community get together and work with the local told that not everyone’s CV can be checked. I hope that commissioner, I suspect that the Welsh Assembly plays my hon. Friend agrees that the Government have learned an important role with regard to his constituents. from what happened in Shropshire and that the CVs of those who apply to become chief executives of trusts will be better scrutinised. Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con): I would like to say well done to my hon. Friend on securing the debate. Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend raises two important Acute hospitals have been mentioned. Given Shropshire’s points. One is that due diligence when recruiting for growing population—on the Welsh border side of the senior health service posts has had to improve, and it county, on the eastern side and on the south-eastern has. Secondly, a more fundamental point is that under side, where that affects his constituents—is it not vital this Government NHS restructuring has given rise to that the acute hospitals retain their 24-hour, seven-days- the opportunity for administrative chaos, which a-week accident and emergency facilities, particularly unfortunately beset Shropshire in the Government’s the paediatric unit at the Princess Royal hospital? Does earlier years. In 10 years, they have introduced nine he agree that it should not just have a sign over the door complete reorganisations of how health care is administered showing that it is open 24 hours a day, seven days a in this country. With such dramatic changes at all levels week, but should deliver consultants and doctors in the health service, it is not surprising that there were throughout the night so that his constituents, and mine management failures. on the eastern side and in central parts of the county, are not rushed, under threat and by blue light, all the When some 300 PCTs were introduced more or less way over to Shrewsbury? overnight, the Government had to find suitably qualified managers to manage each PCT and acute trust. They found that challenging, and one of the worst examples Mr. Dunne: My hon. Friend makes an important of poor recruitment occurred in Shropshire’s acute point, particularly for his constituents, who have the trust. That problem is behind us, and I hope that the benefit of the Princess Royal hospital, with its A and E Government have learned how to recruit and how to unit. minimise reorganisation. I believe that reorganisation is I will mention some of the pressures that the whole off the agenda for the time being, which is very welcome. county is placing on the two A and E units, because it is On the specifics of the deficit, first, it is not yet clear that there has been a significant increase in A and crystal clear to me how the deficit has arisen, but we E usage and I would be interested to hear the Minister have been told by PCT management that some £4.5 million say whether that is a national problem or one that can of the £11.5 million annual deficit relates to what it be solved locally, perhaps through more efficient processes describes as legacy issues in the contract with the acute for helping people to get out of the acute hospitals, hospitals relating to underlying demand. I think that is freeing up beds to help to address some of the problems code for difficulty in assessing the tariff introduced in A and E. through payment by results in relation to the actual cost Let me mention some of the difficulties. There are of the procedures performed, or difficulty in estimating three primary challenges to health care in Shropshire, the demand for service involved with moving from one particularly in my part of the county, which I urge system to another. It is not clear exactly what it means. the Minister to address in his speech. Four years ago The second aspect, which is more identifiable, is that the financial deficits in Shropshire were centred on the some £2 million of cost from new investments in key acute hospital trust, which had racked up more than service developments—in upstream interventions and £34 million of deficits under its previous management. preventive services—has helped to contribute to the The current chief executive, Tom Taylor, and his team deficit. have done a good job in turning around the fortunes of The third aspect, and the one for which the Government Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust, which is have most responsibility, is the introduction of the working hard to achieve its goal of foundation trust national payment-by-results tariff, which directly increased status with the aim of submitting an application for the contract between the PCTs and the acutes by some that status by the end of the year. £4.5 million for no additional activity. The deficit is Active financial disciplines have been introduced so being shunted from one side of the health care economy that from peak losses of some £12 million annually, the to the other. Is the movement of resources from one trust is on track to generate in the current financial year side to the other—from primary to secondary, or vice its second successive surplus of £4 million from an versa—indicative of a national problem? If it is local to income base of some £247 million—just over a third of Shropshire, will the Minister give some guidance on the total spent in the county by the NHS. A consequence how it can be resolved and whether experience from of restructuring the acute third of Shropshire’s health other areas can be brought to bear? care economy has been to shift the financial deficit from Another significant issue relates to capacity constraints the acute trust to the commissioners, primarily Shropshire in the Shropshire health care economy, most of which County PCT, which will have a deficit of £11.5 million result from Shropshire’s peculiar demographics. The in the current year if no action is taken. Minister, who comes from an almost neighbouring 5WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 6WH constituency, will be familiar with the attractions of throughput through the hospital is to introduce a further Shropshire as a place to live. We benefit from significant 30 rehabilitation beds in Telford. I am sure that the hon. inward migration of retired people. The county has an Member for Telford (David Wright), were he here, and above-average population of over-65s and an above-average my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin would and increasing population of over-85s. That is significantly welcome the addition of rehabilitation wards in their above average in my constituency in the southern third community, but so would we elsewhere in the county, of the county. At the last count, almost 25 per cent. of because one problem that flows from the pressure on the population was over 65, and the proportion of space is that it clogs up the admissions process throughout over-85s is rising rapidly. That inevitably puts demands the system. on our health service that commensurately affect other We have also been told by Dr. Rummens that we areas with less. suffer in our acute hospitals from many of the same One of my concerns, which has been highlighted in problems that we read occur elsewhere in the country, material provided by some of the GPs who have contacted with patients being unable to be admitted through A MPs in recent weeks, is that a lack of recognition of the and E, partly to ensure that the A and E departments demographic challenge in allocating funds from the meet their target waiting times, but partly because of Department of Health to providers around the country the bed blocking problem elsewhere in the hospital, to is giving rise to a significant shortfall in funding. which I have referred. In his letter of 7 May, he said that Dr. Rummens, chairman of Shropshire’s local medical one of his colleagues, a GP in the Shrewsbury area, committee, wrote to me and other Shropshire MPs, said: suggesting that Shropshire County PCT is underfunded “Last time I did a Shropdoc session there were 24 patients by 3.8 per cent., calculated using Government’s own waiting to get into the Medical Emergency Centre, many of fair shares formula, which is equivalent to some £15 million whom were waiting in ambulances that were not allowed to of relative underfunding. The Minister will recall from unload the patient”. what I have just said that that is more than enough to We read about that in national newspapers from time to cope with the deficit that has been identified in the PCT time. I have never before heard a Shropshire GP giving this year. hard evidence that it is happening in our county now. I What is the Minister doing about the fair funding think that the reason for it is, as I said, that there are not formula, and can he offer any encouragement to Shropshire enough rehabilitation beds—step-down beds—in the that it may receive a better reflection of the challenges county at times of intense pressure. Of course, the posed by the demographic circumstances when looking pressures at this time of year are somewhat less than forward to funding formulae in the next comprehensive they normally are in the winter. We have been told that spending review? I realise that he is relatively new to his Shropshire, mercifully, has not suffered a significant post and that he may not be in post when the allocations number of hospital admissions because of swine flu. are made, but I look forward to his response. That does not appear to be giving rise to the pressure. I To illustrate how capacity constraints are affecting think that it has more to do with the demographic Shropshire—this picks up a point made by my hon. factors to which I referred. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard)— The importance of rehabilitation beds and the role demand for accident and emergency services reached that the community hospitals can play in providing a unprecedented levels in 2008-09, with some 3.7 per cent. step down from acute care is my third and main point. more emergency admissions during the year than during It relates to the third community hospital in my the previous year. There has been a 30 per cent. increase constituency—the hospital at Ludlow. I should like to in ambulance transfers to the Princess Royal hospital in take the Minister back to that Saturday in January 2006 Telford, compared with a 6 per cent. increase in ambulance when, after marching in Bridgnorth in the morning, I transfers to the Royal Shrewsbury hospital previously. sped across my constituency—well, I travelled across We recently had a briefing from the management of my constituency within the speed limit, of course, but the acute hospital at one of the Shropshire MPs’ regular quite rapidly, because I had to get from a morning quarterly sessions, which the hon. Member for march to an afternoon march in Ludlow. Some 4,000 Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) also attends. Their people assembled in Castle square and marched through analysis suggested that clinicians felt that, at any one the town to a rally at St. Peter’s church, opposite the time, up to 60 patients in the two acute hospitals did not community hospital in Ludlow. That was in reaction to require the specialist care offered by those hospitals and the threat, which was even more real in that case, posed could have been cared for in rehabilitation beds in to their hospital. Although we managed to save the community hospitals. There is a shortage of rehabilitation hospital from closure, we could not prevent the closure beds in the two major conurbations in the county— of the mental health ward there. Shrewsbury and Telford—because their provision comes The community has subsequently worked painstakingly through the acute hospitals. The community hospitals with the PCT—particularly through the League of Friends, are located in the smaller, outlying towns. There are which has been ably led by Mr. Peter Corfield as chairman, three in my constituency, two of which I have mentioned and the careful work of the two GP surgeries, led in this already. regard by Dr. Dorian Yahram and Dr. Graham Cook—to There has been pressure on the community hospitals encourage the PCT to place the redevelopment of Ludlow to shrink the number of beds to find efficiency savings. community hospital at the top of its priority list. The There is pressure on the acute hospital to provide hospital continues to work from a site that includes the somewhere for patients to be released to once they have listed administration block, which was formerly the undergone treatment through A and E or regular admission. Victorian poorhouse in the town. It is disparately set The solution that the acute hospital would like to put in out on a constrained site, with buildings that were place to deal with the problem of bed blocking and perhaps fit for purpose when they were constructed—in 7WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 8WH

[Mr. Dunne] That speech was given in 2006, so the words “starting this year” suggested that there might be some spending some cases in Victorian times and in other cases in the in 2006-07 and that there would certainly be some in 1950s and ’60s. There is no doubt now in the PCT’s 2007-08. We are now in the middle of 2009, and we had mind that Ludlow is its top priority for redevelopment. a reasonable expectation that some of the money, which We received considerable encouragement from the had been specifically set aside from the Department’s West Midlands strategic health authority, whose chairman capital budgets, would now be available. Elisabeth Buggins and then chief executive Cynthia In a parliamentary question in December 2008, I asked Bower, who has, of course, moved on to dizzier heights how much of the money had been spent, and I received in the Department of Health, visited the hospital at my a written answer saying that £248.1 million had been invitation 18 months ago and endorsed the proposals committed by the end of 2008—18 months after the put together by Shropshire County PCT for a scheme had been announced. Again, that gave those of redevelopment to take health care facilities into the us in Ludlow who were concerned about the issue some 21st century. The PCT and local clinicians on the ground comfort that money was being allocated and spent, and were encouraged to develop a vision that would provide there was evidence in the answer that I received that an innovative plan for integrated health care services as buildings were starting to come out of the ground all envisaged under the White Paper, “Our health, our care, around the country. our say: a new direction for community services”. Hon. Members can imagine our surprise, therefore, The plan that has been put together is innovative in a when Shropshire County PCT received a letter from number of ways, not least in that it is built around West Midlands SHA on 1 May, stating: co-location involving the two GP surgeries, both of “Andy Stubbing, Head of Capital and Revenue Investment which have their own constraints: one has no space at Branches at the Department of Health, has said that ‘the Treasury all—even its filing area is shared with a broom cupboard— is unlikely to agree further releases of funding for this programme.’ and the other has also run out of capacity. They will be Instead SHAs will have to apply for funding through PFI schemes”— co-located with the hospital. A site has been identified private finance initiative schemes. That came as a bit of and work has gone so far as to include the inevitable, as a bombshell to us: although we could look at PFI it is these days, bat survey to ensure that the development schemes, and a great deal of work is going on to of the site would not disturb the resident bat population consider LIFT—local improvement finance trust—and in the fine line of oak trees that borders the site. That Express LIFT, as well as other schemes that the Department illustrates the extent to which plans are well advanced. is encouraging, we were under the impression that the We had been given every encouragement by the PCT to community hospital redevelopment fund was there precisely believe that that was something that it wished to proceed to fund the sort of projects that we had proposed with with, and there had been every suggestion by the SHA the blessing of the NHS hierarchy. that it was the SHA’s top priority project for a community I raised the issue with the present Secretary of State hospital redevelopment in the west midlands. I was during the Second Reading of the Health Bill on 8 June, under the impression that those plans—the outline business which was his first working day in office. I did not case—had been presented by the SHA to the Department therefore expect him to give me an instant answer, and of Health. It seems as though the Department decided he admitted that he could not do so, but he did agree to to put the onus on the SHA to take things forward. write to me. True to his word, he did so, which was The primary source of funding for the proposal, helpful—or it appeared to be. Just before I received the which has not been costed to the last quote at this point, Secretary of State’s letter, I received another from the because it was an outline business case, was a £30 million Minister of State, Department of Health, the hon. scheme. A sum of £30 million for a community the size Member for Lincoln (Gillian Merron). In her letter, of Ludlow was quite a big ask, and we in the community which is dated 22 June, she said: were somewhat concerned about where the funding “I can however assure you that there are no plans to remove would come from. We were therefore greatly relieved funding from the Community Hospital Programme.” when the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member Being a relatively new Member, I took the view that a for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt), made an announcement letter from a Minister of State saying that there were no in the House on 5 July 2006. The Hansard reference is plans to remove funding from the programme was quite volume 448, columns 816 to 832. In her statement on a positive indication that there had perhaps been some community hospitals, she announced the establishment mistake. The Minister of State’s letter appeared directly of the community hospital redevelopment fund. She to contradict what the SHA had told the PCT, and that said that a £750 million fund would be available over a appeared to be good news. five-year period. If I may, I shall quote from her speech, I then received the Secretary of State’s letter, which is because it has come to light that the prospects of using dated 22 and 23 June—I am not quite sure when it was that fund, not only for the community of Ludlow but sent. He made two points that are of interest. First, he for the county’s PCT and the SHA overall, appear to referred to his predecessor’s original announcement, have been stymied by the fund having been terminated, saying: although that word has not yet been used by a Minister. “The £750 million was assumed to be required across a period I am looking to this Minister to give us some reassurance of five years or so, spanning the CSR 2007 years, 2008-09, on the fund’s precise status. In her speech announcing 2009-10 and 2010-11, and subsequent years for which” the fund, the then Secretary of State said that the the Department of Health Government would make available “has yet to receive an indication of capital resources from HMT”— “up to £150 million of capital…in each of the next five years, starting this year—a total of up to £750 million—for the development Her Majesty’s Treasury. That is a slightly different way of a new generation of community hospitals and services.”—[Official of describing what his predecessor had described as a Report, 5 July 2006; Vol. 448, c. 816.] £750 million programme starting in 2005-06. The current 9WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 10WH

Secretary of State is suggesting that the programme is 10.8 am meant to run from 2008-09, whereas we know from his predecessor’s answer in Hansard that the money was Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con): It is already committed in 2007-08. The current Secretary of pleasure to serve under you, Mrs. Humble, and I will be State is trying to introduce a bit of wriggle room to as brief as I can. suggest that the programme is being backdated, rather I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow than front-loaded, which is what was apparent from (Mr. Dunne) on securing the debate. As he said, this is what had been said before. the second such debate—there really is a sense of déjà vu and continuity. At the time of the previous debate, The second thing that the Secretary of State said in we went to see the then Secretary of State, the right hon. his letter is also important: Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt), for a private “HMT approval for additional funding would be unlikely because meeting. We actually congratulated her on parts of her of the current pressures on the Department’s capital settlement. White Paper and pressed her—this was confirmed in However, that does not necessarily mean that ‘no more funds would be made available’”— letters—to stick to the proposals on community health. We strongly supported those proposals. Indeed, I led a that is a quote from my letter to the Secretary of State— march through Whitchurch while my hon. Friend was “but that future access to the funds would be determined by marching around his constituency on behalf of community HMT.” hospitals. There you have it. On 22 June, one Minister says that Let me give one example of what we are talking there are no plans to remove funding from the community about. Some 75 per cent. of diabetic patients in Shropshire hospital programme. Then, probably on 23 June, her are treated by GPs, while 75 per cent. of diabetic boss says that future access to the funds will be determined patients in Birmingham are treated in district general by the Treasury. Either we have a community hospital hospitals. Our doctors reckon that there would probably redevelopment fund that has funding or we do not. The be about a 20 per cent. saving if their GP practices Minister would do the country a service if he could could be enhanced with more facilities. clarify whether there is any money in the pot and, if so, The Government came up with a White Paper, and I whether we can have access to it. If not, let us come do not want to embarrass the Minister, but the then clean and establish that there is no money, and those of Secretary of State made the following useful statement: us who are working hard to come up with schemes to improve health facilities in our constituencies can focus “community facilities that are needed for the long term must not be lost in response to short-term budgetary pressures. So we will on that. expect primary care trusts to reconsider such proposals against the principles of the White Paper.”—[Official Report, 30 January The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike 2006; Vol. 442, c. 24.] O’Brien): Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that the We were assured at the time that funds would be there penultimate sentence in the letter from my right hon. for such community projects. Friend the Secretary of State says: There has been expansion of GP practice facilities “However, that does not necessarily mean that ‘no more funds in Market Drayton, and I have been heavily involved in would be made available’, but that future access to the funds the expansion at Oswestry, which is going ahead. I would be determined by HMT”? should like the Minister’s assurance that the funds that In other words, there is funding, but there needs to be PCTs were assured of, for the GP practice extensions, HMT approval for it. The hon. Gentleman is making a will continue. I am not asking for any more money; mystery of something that seems very straightforward. those moneys were promised. I want to name two practices in particular. I took doctors from the Ellesmere Mr. Dunne: I am grateful to the Minister for paying and Wem practices to see the present Minister for attention to what I was saying—that is precisely the Regional Economic Development and Co-ordination sentence that I have just read out to him. Two years ago, when she was a Health Minister, and she made all the the Secretary of State’s predecessor said that £750 million right noises about community care. Three years further was available and that the capital would be spent at the on I should like assurances that the funds are there for rate of up to £150 million a year the PCT. “in each of the next five years, starting this year”.—[Official With respect to Ellesmere, the White Paper called for Report, 5 July 2006; Vol. 448, c. 816.] collaboration with the local authority. Before it was That is where the problem lies: one Secretary of State dissolved into the new unitary authority, the outgoing has said that money is available, while a subsequent North Shropshire district council bought the ground. Secretary of State has said, “No, there isn’t.” The population in my constituency is expanding, and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow has said, I had actually brought my remarks to a close. I look ageing, so I should like to know that the funds set aside forward to the Minister picking up this issue in his at the time of the White Paper are available for the winding-up speech. extensions. I think 18 practices across Shropshire have been allocated priority, but the two that I would pick Several hon. Members rose— out would be Ellesmere and Wem. Will the Minister confirm how the NHS funding Mrs. Joan Humble (in the Chair): Order. Three hon. formula works? My hon. Friend touched on it, but as I Gentlemen are seeking to catch my eye. I advise them see things there is a lag in Shropshire. We have an that I hope to call the Front-Bench spokespeople at increasing population, because of people moving in, 10.30 am. If hon. Members take that into account in but it is also an ageing population, and I should like an their contributions, I hope to be able to fit everyone in. explanation of the notion of distance from target. I 11WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 12WH

[Mr. Owen Paterson] London, and Wrightington hospital, which happens to be in the Secretary of State’s patch, can carry out such understand that that is about an amount that an area is operations. deemed to warrant, under a formula, but does not yet There is haggling about the tariff. It was increased receive, on the understanding that the target figure is to last year, but the operations are so complex and difficult be worked towards, over the years. For counties such as that there is still a problem, and that might be a block in Shropshire the delay in reaching that fair-share allocation the quest for foundation status. What are the Minister’s can represent a significant current shortfall. Combined proposals on that? It would, bluntly, be humiliating for with particular financial pressures in commissioning the country if those operations had to be conducted services, given the elderly population that I mentioned, abroad, which might be an option if the hospital could in a large and thinly populated rural area, that can not afford to carry on doing them. It is the cutting edge cause the PCT problems. I reiterate that I am not asking of medicine. As before, I am not asking for more for more money—the moneys I am talking about have money. The trust has saved the NHS substantial sums been allocated, but there seems to be a drag in the by efficiency gains. We just ask that the correct sums system. should be paid for a quite small number of very difficult To cheer the Minister up I shall move to some good operations. I am very much in favour of foundation news, which is that I am happy to have the jewel in the status. The orthopaedic hospital is a classic example of crown of Shropshire health care in my constituency. a smaller operation with a really tight team and a That is the Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt orthopaedic tremendous team spirit throughout the place, which hospital, which is a shining example of how health care really delivers. can be provided. I was chomping through my drearily In the past I have felt that there has been a bit of healthy breakfast about a year ago when I saw a list of prejudice in the west midlands authorities against that hospitals that had been rated by the Healthcare world-class operation, tucked away in the north-west of Commission. I was not surprised, but delighted, to see the west midlands. I met an Australian on an aeroplane that the orthopaedic hospital came top, with a score of once—I shall not bore hon. Members by doing the 92 out of 100, on a range of scores. It had a higher score accent—who said, “I have been to this amazing hospital; than any other trust nationally on four questions, and it it’s entirely surrounded by sheep.” It is isolated, but it was the top scorer in six out of eight headline categories delivers the care that it does partly because that is the across the west midlands. The key thing is that it has got attraction for the people who work there. There has its costs down by about 10 per cent. in the past couple been a sea change. I pay tribute to Elisabeth Buggins, of years. Above all it has zero MRSA—there is no the chairman of the strategic health authority, who has MRSA there, despite an enormous increase in its activity. been to the hospital a couple of times and understands It employs 1,200 people and £80 million goes to the its value. She supports its drive for foundation status. local economy; it is the biggest organisation near Oswestry. However, I should like an answer on the vexed question It is a very successful organisation, and is critical for the of the tariffs for revision operations. The orthopaedic local area. hospital has a sports injury service. Three consultants work on sports injuries. What links does the Minister In addition there is charity work, which I think is rare have with his colleagues working on the Olympics, with in the NHS—I should declare an interest for my a view to making sure that the hospital could benefit involvement in the Institute of Orthopaedics. That has from that? led to the building of the Leopold Muller centre. A couple of weeks ago I went round the Torch centre, To move on, rapidly, from good news to bad news, a which probably has the most sophisticated gait laboratory ludicrous vexed area is the nonsense of redesignating in western Europe, which deals with the treatment of the status of GP practices that can dispense medicines. children with acute spina bifida or muscular dystrophy. The Shawbury practice raised that with me last summer. That is at the crossing point of medicine, mechanical I do not see why the Government have brought in the engineering and physics. I do not entirely understand it, new regulations, which are wholly damaging and negative. but I enormously admire the work that is done there. We saw them off in Shawbury, thanks to a spirited An application has been made for national designation campaign. I probably had more letters about that last for muscular dystrophy services, and I wonder whether summer than about anything else. Sadly, the issue has the Minister can clarify when that may come through. moved on to Gobowen, a large village a couple of miles outside Oswestry. I had many letters from furious The trust has cleared its debts and is now pressing on constituents who are used to going to the GP and to foundation status; that goes back to my meeting with getting their medicines at the same time. The pharmacists the right hon. Member for Leicester, West. I hope that it there have local knowledge and access to medical records. will happen in the next 12 months. The process has been The system is wholly beneficial. However, under the dragging on. new regulations, if another company puts in a bid for a What seems to be the sticking point is the fact that pharmacy, and if the designation of the area is considered there are probably only four top orthopaedic hospitals and the rurality is withdrawn, the doctors’ surgery can in the country that can do revision operations; they no longer dispense. In Gobowen the utter nonsense of rework operations that may have gone wrong or may the situation is that the company that put in the bid not have been quite so skilfully done in other hospitals. does not yet plan to build a pharmacy. That is a wholly That is immensely complex and difficult work. About negative development and it is nonsense. It is all to do 1,000 such operations a year are done there. Only the with the designation of rurality. Nuffield orthopaedic centre in Oxford, the Royal I have been in constant communication with the orthopaedic hospital at the Woodlands in Birmingham, Minister’s predecessors. I have a letter from the Minister the Royal National orthopaedic hospital at Stanmore in of State, Department of Health, the hon. Member for 13WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 14WH

Corby (Phil Hope), who said that the question is decided Friend the Member for Guildford (Anne Milton), the by the PCT, and I got a letter from the PCT saying that shadow Minister for Health, who will doubtless soon be it is required by national regulations first to determine making decisions on the matter. When we finally get a the rurality of the area as defined under the pharmacy Conservative Government, I hope that there will be regulations. Then there is a ludicrous passage in which some redress, so that my constituents do not continue the PCT just repeats what it is made to do by central losing out. Government regulations, and says: Not only the financial aspects, but issues to do with “The regulations also clearly state that the fact that an area is drugs and waiting times concern me. One of the most classified as ‘controlled’ (ie not rural in character), or that a emotional and fraught experiences that I have had as an decision is taken to remove such a classification, does not necessarily MP is trying to secure live-saving drugs for my constituents; mean that it is urban.” they are not entitled to them, whereas people who live If you can understand that, Mrs. Humble, you are just a few miles across the border in Wales that use my doing well. hospital are automatically allowed those drugs. I feel Councillor Joyce Barrow has recently been elected passionately about the United Kingdom, and I believe the councillor for Morda, another village just outside that we are one country. Allowing such a postcode Oswestry, which must be rural because it comes within lottery to continue is doing untold damage to the Union. Oswestry rural parish council, and it is likely to have its services removed. One of the excuses about Gobowen Lembit Öpik: I declare an interest in that the Royal was that there are other services, such as a post office. Shrewsbury hospital saved my life on 13 April 1988, and However, the Government have removed the post office the Gobowen hospital helped me to start walking again. from Morda and there is really very little there. I have I challenge the hon. Gentleman: I believe that those had a furious letter from the surgery saying that that Welsh patients provide a net contribution to the Royal will damage patient care. Will the Minister explain why Shrewsbury. If they went somewhere else—perhaps to the regulations were introduced? The PCT has said that Hereford or Aberystwyth—Shrewsbury might have to it had no option but to implement them. [Interruption.] become smaller. He may criticise the benefits of devolution I should be grateful if the Minister would listen to me to my constituents, but I advise him to look at the figures rather than to the hon. Member for Coventry, South again. On balance, the Royal Shrewsbury hospital gains (Mr. Cunningham). a net benefit from my Montgomeryshire constituents It is causing real upset. Doctors tell me that it will going there for their health care. damage patient care. I am all for freedom of choice. If someone wants to build a pharmacy, if they can compete, Daniel Kawczynski: I do not want to get engaged in good for them, but why should we upset a system under cross-border parliamentary warfare, but if the hon. which doctors have detailed knowledge of their patients Gentleman speaks to the chief executive of the Royal and patients do not have to suffer the inconvenience of Shrewsbury, as I have done, he will discover that the using a taxi or the infrequent bus service to go into hospital has lost out. Of course we welcome Welsh town to get their medicines? I do not see any merit in patients coming across the border to use our hospital’s what the Government are doing, and I would like to see facilities, but the Welsh Assembly must start paying the things reviewed. I would like an answer from the Minister. same for medication as English authorities. That is what leads to the losses in English hospitals. 10.20 am We pay too much for car parking at our hospital. We Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con): have to pay £2 to leave our cars at the Royal Shrewsbury. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow When my daughter was being born there, I remember (Mr. Dunne) on securing this important debate. thinking that I would have to leave the labour ward and I pay tribute to the hard-working members of staff at rush out to fill the meter, because parking tickets expire the Royal Shrewsbury hospital—the doctors and nurses, at midnight and one has to buy another ticket. We are the cleaning staff and all involved in providing care at the fourth-wealthiest economy in the world, yet we are that important health care facility in Shropshire. I pay charging people to leave their motor vehicles. Many tribute also to the chief executive and the chair of the come, not as I did for the birth of my daughter, for a Shrewsbury and Telford Hospital NHS Trust for their relatively short period, but for much longer, as they hard work, Mr. Taylor and Dr. Bamford respectively. have relatives with long-term illnesses at the hospital. The most important thing that I want to get across in For people on limited incomes, paying £2 a day is bad. my truncated speech—we are running out of time—is I remember that the windows of the maternity ward that Shrewsbury is a border town. We live cheek by jowl at the Royal Shrewsbury hospital have to be sealed for with the Welsh community just across the border, which security reasons. It was sweltering when my daughter uses our hospital facilities. A political map of England was born, but the hospital did not have air conditioning will show that all the seats in that part of the country or fans. I hope that the Minister will do everything are held by Conservative or Liberal Democrat Members. possible to ensure that the maternity services at the Although I have repeatedly raised my concerns with hospital have better ventilation or air conditioning, so Ministers on how English hospitals are losing out as a that people have a more conducive atmosphere. result of Welsh devolution, little progress has been The league of friends at Royal Shrewsbury hospital is made because the Government do not understand the a group of volunteers that raise hundreds of thousands grave consequences and are not prepared to act. of pounds every year for the hospital. It runs tea and The Royal Shrewsbury hospital loses approximately coffee shops, sells goods and runs events throughout £2 million a year because the Welsh Assembly has Shropshire to raise funds to buy vital equipment. That different ways of paying for treatment. That loss cannot equipment should be provided by the state through be allowed to continue. I aim my remarks at my hon. taxation, but as a result of the lack of Government 15WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 16WH

[Daniel Kawczynski] situation that his predecessor had left to fester. The hospital is a cross-border lifeline for my constituents, funding, the league of friends, a local charity, is increasingly and I thank its staff and leadership for all that they do. I burdened with having to find ever more money. I ran hope that, collectively, we can create a cohesive strategy the London marathon a few years ago. It nearly killed embodying the work of the small, local hospitals and me, but I raised £9,000 for the league of friends. Should using modern technology to improve their reach and to I be re-elected, I may do it again because of the tremendous save funds and lives. benefits that the group is able to give the hospital. My constituents in Shrewsbury have raised aspects of 10.30 am the problem of long-term care for the elderly, as did my Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I hon. Friends the Members for Ludlow and for North congratulate the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne), Shropshire (Mr. Paterson). For many of my constituents, a former Work and Pensions Committee colleague, on it is the biggest health care issue. Many of my constituents securing this important debate. I have enjoyed listening have had to sell their relatives’ homes in order to pay for to the description of the issues in his constituency and their care. The BBC website says this morning that the the constituencies of other Shropshire Members. I know Government are considering asking people in England Ludlow reasonably well: my wife lived there for some to take out care insurance to pay for long-term care in years when a child and my brother-in-law Josh was born their old age. there, which presumably explains why he is a Manchester The question of long-term care is hugely important United fan—I never quite worked that out. However, it to my constituents. There are many senior citizens in is a wonderful part of the country and one that I am Shrewsbury. We have an above-average population of always pleased to visit. senior citizens, and they are looking to this Government, The case laid out by the hon. Gentleman and other or to the next Conservative Government, for some form hon. Members demonstrates the stark contrast between of answer. It is unacceptable that people who have been Ministers’ rhetoric and the reality of the NHS in the thrifty and have saved should have to sell their assets 21st century. The rhetoric is about localism, but in and their homes to pay for long-term care. reality we have the most over-centralised health service I end by trying to indicate to the Minister the passion in the world. I am afraid that that is an issue for us all. that everyone feels about health care services in Shropshire. Few MPs have a community hospital in their constituency, We want a fair deal, and I look forward to hearing the but I am one of them—the excellent Wharfedale hospital— Minister’s response. and very few of those MPs have not had to spend considerable time supporting those facilities, and often 10.28 am campaigning against cuts, service reductions and, on too many occasions, the threat of closure. Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): I am aware of the time, Mrs. Humble. I have delegations arriving The hon. Gentleman alluded to a 2006 statement here from Welshpool, so I hope that the Minister will made by the former Secretary of State for Health, the forgive me, on condition that I do not ask him any right hon. Member for Leicester, West (Ms Hewitt), and questions, if I leave a little early. the commitment to dedicate £750 million to community hospitals. Three years on, however, not even half that As has been said, my constituency neighbours Shropshire, has been invested in those important health facilities. and my Montgomeryshire constituents depend heavily That is of real concern to communities in Shropshire on the health care services of the Royal Shrewsbury and in Yorkshire, and up and down the country. I shall hospital and, particularly, the Gobowen hospital. I read some of the words accompanying the announcement. cannot praise enough the efforts of the staff at those The 2006 statement said: facilities, not least because of my experience there. I also praise the efforts of Tom Taylor in putting into “Developments in medical technology are making it possible to provide far more care in local communities, closer to where order accounts and finances that have gone dreadfully people live”. wrong. Is that how people perceive the health service? I say not. I wish to add two further observations. First, it seems that the most effective way to provide the care that my The statement continued: constituents need is for the district general hospital in “Services could include in-patient and out-patient facilities, north Shrewsbury to do what only it can, but to allow diagnostic tests, specialist clinics, minor surgery, health and social care services for people with long term conditions, dentistry, convalescence in the other four hospitals—at Llanidloes, rehabilitation and palliative care… we expect to see a strategic Newtown, Machynlleth and Welshpool. Bed spaces are shift in how the NHS provides care, with a reduction of funding cheaper there and a collective approach could make a to support the provision of more convenient services in local huge difference. communities.”—[Official Report, 5 July 2006; Vol. 448, c. 816-17.] Secondly, technology should enable us to do outreach Those warm words simply do not represent the experiences work much more creatively and extensively. By using of people throughout the country, which is that many modern technology, some sophisticated diagnosis and services that could be provided more locally are not. treatment could once again be devolved back to those They have to travel increasingly large distances. In my smaller hospitals. That, too, would reduce the pressure constituency, people have to travel the 11 miles from on the Royal Shrewsbury hospital. I have no doubt that Otley to the large hospitals in Leeds such as Leeds technology will make a difference, but it would be better general infirmary and St. James’s university hospital. if we did that strategically. In more rural constituencies, such as those of the Finally, I thank Tom Taylor for bringing things into hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for order at the Royal Shrewsbury hospital. Unquestionably, Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), some people regularly his leadership has turned around by 180° the dreadful have to travel large distances to access important services 17WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 18WH that are often an hour and a half’s drive away. That Castle community hospital. It was encouraging to hear simply is not acceptable. We should be trying to make as him talk in such glowing terms about the community many services as possible accessible locally. effort that has gone into the design of not only services I wish to make another important point that comes but buildings. Clearly, a lesson in best practice can be up every time we debate local health services. The learned about designing services that are responsive to modern NHS is not accountable. It takes marches of local people’s needs and that make people feel that the thousands of people in the streets of our towns and NHS is responding to their concerns. MPs organising petitions, protests and public meetings My hon. Friend mentioned Ludlow community hospital to get any sort of accountability in local health services. and the closure of the mental health ward. As a shadow Whatever Ministers or civil servants say, local health spokesman with responsibilities for mental health, I managers are not accountable to local people. They are caution against the loss of mental health beds. The accountable in this bizarre chain to strategic health closure of such beds has resulted in a rise in the prison authorities, which, as we all know, are not only enormously population. Whether people are in prison or in mental wasteful, but the puppets of the Secretary of State. health hospitals, they must receive the care and services They oversee a wide area and ensure that his bidding on that they need. general policy is done in local areas. That is entirely My hon. Friend told a very frustrating story about inappropriate and wasteful. how the hospital and the local people were encouraged What should be a people’s health service has fallen to redevelop services. Both the PCT and the strategic into the hands of managers who do not see themselves health authority described Ludlow as a top priority. as accountable. I have seen many examples in the health Mention was made of the community hospital service in my constituency of a paternalist attitude. The redevelopment fund. Despite the Minister’s intervention, managers say, “We know best. We know what our I am still not clear whether or not the fund is there. That priorities are. We will deliver them and make decisions shows the confusion about some of the Government’s with little or no consultation.”When there is consultation, announcements. The Minister shakes his head. Either it is usually inadequate and often simply a fig leaf, we are all being very dim or he is not paying attention, enabling them to rubber-stamp a decision already made. and I suggest that it is the latter. There are campaigns throughout the country not only on community hospitals, but on other important Mr. Mike O’Brien: Will the hon. Lady give way? health facilities and health centres. It takes such people power to bring any kind of accountability. When will Anne Milton: The Minister will have a chance to the Government address that clear democratic deficit? address the points when he replies to the debate. If they did so, they would not have to listen time and [Interruption.] Okay, I will give way. again to MPs complaining that even we find it difficult Mr. O’Brien: I should be grateful if the hon. Lady did to influence decisions on behalf of our constituents, not make personal asides and then stop me from except through such petitions, marches and protests. intervening, because it is discourteous. As I have said The Liberal Democrats will enter the next election already, the fund is available, and it needs the consent of with a policy to replace PCTs with partially elected both the Department of Health and the Treasury. It is health boards. We can debate whether that is a good very simple and straightforward, and there is nothing idea, but it acknowledges a problem that cannot be obscure about it. ignored and needs policy solutions. We have put one on the table to be discussed: involve local people in decisions Anne Milton: I certainly did not mean any discourtesy so that they can kick out, through elections, hospital to the Minister. I was driven by frustration over the lack trust managers making unpopular decisions and PCT of clarity. By implication, I do not think that we are all bosses making unpopular local strategic decisions. Without being very dim either. None the less, we need more that accountability, all the warm words about localism clarity. The Minister has not explained why the money and accountability are not only just words, but rather is not being spent at the rate at which it was originally insulting to the many people who take part in marches intended to be spent. and sign petitions. As for community hospitals, I certainly have one in The sad reality is that the health service is unaccountable my constituency. Cranleigh village hospital is extremely and desperately over-centralised, and does not respond important. I am often unconvinced by both the modelling to the needs and demands of local people. Until that and the drivers of such hospitals, which relate, I am changes we cannot make the best use of the energy of convinced, to short-term budgetary pressures, rather our health professionals and managers who are passionate than to clinical improvements. The Government’s White about the care that they provide. Health services are so Paper, “Our health, our care, our say: a new direction tightly controlled from Whitehall and the Departments. for community services” made it absolutely clear that That must change if we are ever to give the NHS back decisions should be made on the basis of improving to the communities, where health service decisions should clinical outcomes. Yet, all too often, the drivers are the be made. financial pressures. My hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow also raised 10.39 am the issue of financial deficits and the yo-yoing between Anne Milton (Guildford) (Con): I congratulate my PCTs and acute trusts. That is confusing not only for hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) on local people but for the trusts, and we need to have securing this debate. He has clearly spent a lot of time some clarity about where those deficits lie. In my PCT, I participating in marches around his constituency. He have had considerable difficulty discovering why, with a talked about 4,000 people marching in protest at the 5.2 per cent. increase in funding, the PCT has to save threats to Bridgenorth hospital, and he mentioned Bishops £60 million. I cannot make sense of the figures. 19WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 20WH

[Anne Milton] happening on the ground. So often, we see the frustration of hon. Members as they try to describe what is happening Will the Minister reassure us that there will be no in their constituencies. They often say that what the more reorganisation of services in the lifetime of this Government say is happening is just not taking place. Government? As he is new to his brief, I refer him to the There is a yawning gap between some of the modelling Health Committee’s report on reorganisation, which behind the Department of Health and what works on makes it clear that reorganisation causes chaos, a the ground. We saw that in the White Paper, which fall in due diligence—we heard about the chief executive explicitly says that changes should not be made because who got his job with a fake CV—loss of focus and of short-term budgetary pressures, but that is exactly management failures. Moreover, will the Minister explain why changes are made. the deficits and what attempts the Government are The Government cannot make grand statements and making to ensure that we know exactly where such get press coverage for the £750 million that they are deficits lie? spending on the community hospital fund only for it to My hon. Friend also raised the issue of demographics disappear before our eyes. We do not see the withdrawal and our increasingly older population. Again, as the of such funds plastered all over the press, but we see the Minister is new to his brief, I refer him to an excellent announcement of them everywhere. We need clarity on Health Committee report, in which I was involved, the matter. Although the Minister intervened on me, I about financial deficits and to the work of Professor still do not believe that we have that clarity. I look Sheila Asantha, who considered the issue of funding. In forward to the Minister’s comments and to him being particular, she examined whether rural areas were getting able to reassure my hon. Friends that health services, sufficient funding to deliver the required services, particularly particularly those in rural areas, are safe in the as they tend to be more difficult and expensive to Government’s hands. provide in those areas. My hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and 10.49 am Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) spoke in glowing terms about the expertise in Oswestry and the need to harness The Minister of State, Department of Health (Mr. Mike and invest in that expertise. We have pockets of superb O’Brien): I have 10 minutes left in which to reply. The practice in this country. We must ensure that we do not hon. Member for Guildford (Anne Milton) said that have clumsy funding formulae and tariffs that put such she was going to give me some of her time, but she has services under threat. He also eloquently described the given me only about 30 seconds. anger that many GPs feel over the dispensing problems in rural areas. In this debate, we have had a run around Anne Milton: Ten minutes. every single issue relating to NHS services that faces many hon. Members. I know that my hon. Friend is not Mr. O’Brien: I have 10 minutes overall in which to alone in his concern about GP dispensing. reply, and the hon. Lady took nine minutes and 30 seconds The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit to respond. She is entitled to that time, but she should Öpik) and my hon. Friend the Member for North not then say that she is allocating some of her time to Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) praised the Royal Shrewsbury allow me to respond more fully. The hon. Member for hospital. My hon. Friend always describes his local Ludlow (Mr. Dunne), whom I congratulate on securing services and workers in glowing terms. As someone who this debate, took 35 minutes to set out his case, and the worked in the NHS for 25 years, I can say how much hon. Members for North Shropshire (Mr. Paterson) staff appreciate being mentioned in such terms. He also and for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) mentioned some very complex cross-border issues, such raised a series of important issues on which I should as waiting times and availability of drugs. Even in this have liked more time to respond, but they will have to Chamber today, we saw the issue bubble up as the heat forgive me if I am unable to do so in detail on some of began to rise. I dare say that my hon. Friend and the them. I am happy to respond to the gestures of hon. hon. Gentleman could have gone on for some time and Member for North Shropshire and write to the hon. taken the complex issue further. Gentlemen. I recently spoke at a League of Friends conference. Let me say that I am concerned about the representations There is no doubt that the organisation does a tremendous that were made in respect of Ludlow community hospital. job in raising money.Sometimes it helps to fund equipment Before I respond specifically to those, I pay tribute, as and services, which are right on the border of what the Ministers always should, to the hard work and dedication state and chargeable provision should provide. shown by health service staff throughout Shropshire in The Government are publishing a Green Paper on providing a high-quality health service for patients. social care and long-term care. I do not want to take up Funding overall for the NHS has tripled since 1997. any more of the Minister’s time, because there are a Between 2004 and 2010-11, funding to Shropshire County number of points on which we should like to hear some PCT will increase from £230.5 million to £436.6 million. clarity. Moreover, I should like to give my hon. Friends That represents an increase of more than £200 million and other hon. Members the opportunity to intervene in only seven years. Back in 1997, it was not uncommon on the Minister if they do not get the full clarity that for people to have to wait 18 months or even two years they would like. for an operation in the NHS. However, because of our As I said, I have worked in the NHS for 25 years, and reforms and increased investment in the Shropshire I came to the House because I did not think that County PCT area, 92 per cent. of admitted patients and enough people with front-line experience of the NHS 98 per cent. of non-admitted patients are currently seen were working in Parliament. There is no doubt in my and begin their treatment within 18 weeks of referral. mind that there is a disconnect between what the That demonstrates the dramatic effect that the Government believe is happening and what is actually Government’s policies have had on waiting times. 21WH Health Care (Shropshire)14 JULY 2009 Health Care (Shropshire) 22WH

In addition, we are establishing new GP health centres can confirm that the Department of Health will continue in Shropshire, which will be based in Shrewsbury. They to consider schemes for community hospitals. They will will open in September and can be used by some of the be subject to the same approval process as all capital hon. Members’ constituents. The Market Drayton primary investment, thus ensuring that any further spending is care centre, which opened in 2005, provides GP services affordable and that it provides value for money. For for some 15,000 patients and other health services for projects due to start in 2010-11, decisions will be subject the wider community. The hon. Member for Ludlow to the strategies that PCTs produce for the development mentioned Bridgnorth hospital, which has been of their estates and the outcomes of the next spending transformed, and the new services coming from the review. £1.2 million spent at Bishops Castle. Those are just a I appreciate the concerns about Ludlow community few examples of how the extra funding provided by the hospital. In 2007, Shropshire County PCT proposed a Government, combined with the dedication of health scheme for consideration as a community venture, service staff, have made some real improvements for the requesting £20 million in capital investment. That was local population. fine, but when it was examined, it was determined that However, the hon. Gentleman also spoke about the the scheme would not stand up as a community venture local financial deficit. The financial situation is indeed project. The PCT worked to develop the scope of the challenging, but the SHA and the PCT have assured us venture but seems to have concluded eventually that that they are confident that a balanced financial position staff conditions, particularly pensions, made the scheme will be achieved by the year’s end. Revenue allocations impractical. The project therefore did not go ahead in for 2009 to 2011 are based on, and calculated using, the the form that was originally proposed. most up-to-date population data from the Office for Subsequently, last May, a new idea was proposed. I National Statistics. There is always a lag of a few years, have no problem with that. The new idea appears to be but that is not all that long. Allocations seek to reflect valued at around £30.4 million and the PCT has submitted the Department for Communities and Local Government’s the strategic outline to the SHA. The most important growth areas and growth points and the increasing thing is to ensure that the Ludlow scheme is assessed numbers of retirees. Shropshire County PCT will receive and prioritised appropriately in the context of the regional a revenue allocation of £412.6 million in 2009-10 and health economy. The local NHS needs to compare the £436.6 million in 2010-11. As I said, that represents an costs of, and benefits that will be delivered by, a proposed increase of £45.6 million or 11.7 per cent. in funding. scheme against its other priorities. If the local NHS is to In the time I have left, I shall turn to Ludlow community make the right decisions, the PCT will need to develop hospital. I appreciate how important the issue is to the an outline business case, the purpose of which is to hon. Member for Ludlow and his constituents, and I identify in more detail the preferred option for the am aware of the petition on the No. 10 website posted delivery of the scheme. by Friends of Ludlow Hospital. Community services There are a number of funding options—it is not true provide essential care to many vulnerable people, families that the community hospitals scheme is the only option. and communities, from health promotion to end-of-life The PCT needs to negotiate with the SHA about the care. Such care is often provided by community nurses priority that the latter has within its regional formulae. and therapists and in local centres and community hospitals, and it accounts for a substantial part of NHS Mr. Dunne: I should point out to the Minister that funding—approximately £10 billion annually. The the SHA had determined that the scheme was its No. 1 Government have developed a strategy for transforming priority for the fund. That is what it wants help with. community services, which has involved hundreds of clinicians and other stakeholders. The strategy will reduce Mr. O’Brien: The hon. Gentleman says, “for the inequalities, secure high-quality care and promote fund,” but I must tell him that there are a number of productivity and innovation. potential sources of funding. Frankly, on the face it, the The Government continue to ensure that we provide project looks good, but it needs to be within the overall support for the community hospital programme. Investment allocations for the SHA. I was interested to note that in community services remains a high priority for us. Elisabeth Buggins, the chair of the SHA, gave active The Government programme consists of two elements: encouragement for the project, but I would also be £500 million for conventional infrastructure investment, interested to know where it stands in the SHA’s overall which relates to proposals for new buildings, and plans for the region. At the moment, if the project is £250 million for community ventures. We intended the asking for funding under only one category and does latter to be innovative joint ventures with the private not have wider potential sources of funding, it stands sector, involving many services and some infrastructure. less chance of going ahead. Let me be clear: that funding was there if projects We will see how the project develops. I hope that it were proposed. That has happened in some years and progresses, that it gets into the SHA’s regional plans and 28 projects have secured elements of the funding. that it is given the priority that the hon. Gentleman The money has contributed to a range of services, would like. It appears that Mrs. Buggins also wants that including community hospitals, and more generally to to happen. Let us wait and see whether the SHA gives other important and welcome community projects. I it that priority. 23WH 14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 24WH

East Coast Main Line to avoid at all cost was making savage cuts to balance its budget, which is why it made the statement on 1 July 11 am about its financial position. It is right that the Government responded as they did, because cutting services is not Hugh Bayley (City of York) (Lab): I consulted as the answer. It would be economically damaging to widely as I could in the time available about what the Scotland and economically disastrous for the east of future of the east coast main line service should look England. like. I spoke to National Express East Coast, of course; to Ministers; to former managing directors of the east Greg Mulholland (Leeds, North-West) (LD): I coast main line, from both the time when British Rail congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important managed the service and the Great North Eastern Railway debate. Does he agree that we must look again at the period; to trade unions; to transport consultants and to award of the franchise to National Express? Concerns journalists. I spoke to Yorkshire Forward about the were raised at the time, and the rival bids from GNER business implications of the disruption to the franchise, and Virgin had many merits that were overlooked for and, with the help of my local daily paper, The Press,I financial reasons. Does he also agree that we need to consulted the public and received a lot of interesting consider a longer period of public ownership to ensure comments from people inside the rail industry and stability, which is what all of us here crave? service users. The east coast main line is the most strategically Hugh Bayley: I obviously made a mistake in giving important railway, in economic terms, within the UK. It way to the hon. Gentleman. It is so obvious that I delivers more passenger kilometres than the west coast sought this debate in order to raise those questions that main line. The service is economically vital to the whole he might have had the patience to wait to hear what east of the country, especially the east midlands, Yorkshire I have to say. He will have his own opportunity to and the Humber, the north-east and Scotland. In 2002, contribute. Halcrow conducted a study to examine the economic This is the second time within three years that the value of the east coast main line to Yorkshire and the franchise has gone belly up. It is not a quirk or a Humber. Halcrow believes that it added £100 million to technical problem; I believe that it is a signal that the the local economy in 2002, that it directly sustains franchising model is not robust enough and not fit for 11,000 jobs, primarily in transport and tourism, and purpose for a railway of such great strategic and economic that it indirectly contributes far more to the region. importance. Franchising is supposed to transfer risk to Businesses locate in Yorkshire because they can depend the private sector, but twice in three years the Government on a fast and reliable train service that gets businessmen have been left to pick up the pieces. and women from Leeds or York to London in two hours and from Doncaster to London in an hour and a Since 1999, National Express’s UK rail business has half. That is vital to business location decisions. A loss made a profit of £491 million, but because National of confidence in the quality or reliability of the service Express was allowed to create a special purpose company, would result in a fall in inward investment, as businesses it appears to have limited its corporate liability for the would not risk basing themselves 200 miles away from east coast main line business to a £40 million bond. I such an important market as London. do not believe that that is a satisfactory transfer of risk to the private sector. The franchising model appears to When the figures are updated from 2002 to the present allow train operating companies to make money in and the other regions are added, it is clear that hundreds good times and leave the taxpayer to pick up the tab of millions of pounds of economic activity depend on in bad times. this railway. In the short term, therefore, the Government must safeguard the quality, frequency and punctuality of services. I believe that the Secretary of State was Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): I, too, right to intervene as he did on 1 July when National congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. Express made its statement to the stock exchange. Ironically, Is he not being slightly disingenuous by not putting National Express East Coast has reduced train cancellations fully into context the fact that the franchise system will and improved punctuality while it has been running the always involve revenue payments made directly from service, but the Government must ensure that those the taxpayer over time? Some train operating companies service improvements do not slip, which is a danger at have been paid the revenue payments earlier than others. the tail end of a franchise. It is what happened while There was always going to be some support. It is not GNER was running the service after it lost the franchise. simply a question of making profits in good times and the taxpayer picking up the tab in bad times. Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I agree with what the hon. Gentleman is saying, particularly about maintaining Hugh Bayley: Again, I hope that the hon. Gentleman the current service, but does he share my concerns will listen to the argument that I am making. He might about the report in The Sunday Telegraph that, before then rise to say that he agrees with me, but if he the removal of the franchise, National Express and the disagrees, he will of course have the opportunity to state Government discussed reducing services on the line as a his case. cost-cutting measure? That would be disastrous to my I turn to the railway business itself. Apart from the constituency and many other areas served by the line. top, board-level franchise managers, the staff who run the railway—the managers, engineers, drivers, train crews, Hugh Bayley: I have consulted widely and have no ticket office staff, station staff and telesales staff—are evidence that the company considered that. In my all the same people, whoever runs the franchise. The conversations with National Express about the current question is therefore whether franchising is a good way circumstances, it said that the one thing that it wanted of choosing that top management. I doubt that it is, 25WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 26WH because so many of the train operating company’s costs not prevent a franchise collapse of the kind we saw with are fixed by others, such as track access charges and GNER and appear to be seeing with National Express rolling stock leasing costs. Many of the other costs East Coast. faced by operating companies are pretty inflexible. The As I was saying, in answer to the statement by the premiums paid to the Government are agreed years in Minister of State, Department for Transport in the advance. Staff costs are not flexible either. Commons on 1 July, the shadow Secretary of State for The only major variable available to a train operating Transport accused the Department of charging too company is passenger numbers and the resulting revenue. much for the franchise. It was not the Department for It is clear from the GNER collapse and the National Transport that wrote the bids, but hard-headed businessmen Express East Coast situation that it is impossible to who had assessed what the franchise would be worth to predict accurately passenger numbers and revenue seven their businesses. The National Express East Coast bid years ahead. If a bidder overestimates the growth in was not the highest cash bid submitted in the last passenger numbers and revenue, as GNER and National franchising period, but the second highest. It was selected Express East Coast did, they will default on their obligations because the Government were not confident that the to the Government and the public. If they underestimate highest bid was viable. It is hard to take the Conservative such growth and display a lack of ambition in their party’s complaints seriously. Franchising was a poisoned business plan, they will make windfall profits, although chalice that it imposed on the railways. It has brought they may have to share those with the Government some benefits, but at the cost of an unacceptable level of under cap and collar arrangements. There must be a instability. better way to determine who manages a service such as What are the alternatives? First, I would like the the east coast main line. Government to re-examine the role of Network Rail. I applaud the Government’s decision to set up a Should it remain the monopoly infrastructure provider, publicly owned company to run the east coast main line or would it be better to have a vertical railway whereby in the likely event that National Express East Coast the Department franchises the track and the trains? If defaults. The cost of setting up that company will be the Network Rail remains as the sole national provider, same whether it runs the service for one year, three years should it be a public corporation rather than a public or a longer period. I urge the Government to use a interest company? That would make it more accountable period of public ownership to rebuild business confidence to the Government and the public. Should track access in the service, restore staff morale and create a better charges be variable? Network Rail is largely insulated business model for the running of the service. from the economic downturn. Should the track access charges that it obtains depend on the revenue of the I have spoken to a director of the publicly owned train operating companies? That would give Network company that took over the Connex franchise after it Rail a vested interest in working with train operating collapsed. He served on the board of that public sector companies to make them as efficient as possible and company for three years. The company ran the railway profitable. in the public sector for two and a half years. I believe Secondly, I would like the Government to examine that the Government will need at least a similar period what should be contracted out. Should they contract to consolidate and stabilise the east coast main line. I out a full franchise or something less? For example, they say to the Government: please do not rush into could contract out the top level management of a refranchising. They should take sufficient time to work public transport service, possibly on a profit share basis. out what went wrong and should change the system to That would apply a cap and collar arrangement from make the business model fit for purpose. day one. Some people say that they know the answers already, Thirdly, I would like the Government to consider but I believe that they have sectional and vested interests. whether it is right to contract out the core service or Plenty of people in the private sector are calling for entire service in a region or on a line to a single longer franchises. They say rightly that that would company, as under the GNER and National Express encourage higher levels of investment. However, GNER East Coast model, or whether it would be better to and National Express East Coast did not fail because contract out train paths, such as with Grand Central their franchises were too short. Both came to grief and Hull Trains. Must there be a pre-eminent train because they miscalculated the revenue growth. Longer operating company in a region or on a line? For example, franchises would make the risk of such miscalculations Leeds has a half-hourly service to London. I note that greater. the hon. Member for Leeds, North-West (Greg Mulholland) The Conservative party says that the Department for has now left the debate. Why should there not be two Transport has been greedy and that it charged too much train operating companies each running an hourly service for the franchise. so that they compete with each other on quality and price? Fourthly, should the public sector be able to bid when Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Over a the Government put franchises out to contract? It is of longer franchise period, there is the prospect of revenue course possible because Deutsche Bahn and SNCF can growth recovering, which does not exist over a shorter bid. Why should a British public sector transport company franchise period. not be able to submit a bid? At a recent meeting between Yorkshire Labour MPs and the Prime Minister, Hugh Bayley: That is true, but as we have seen from my hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Rothwell the National Express East Coast situation, when there (Colin Challen) asked why a public sector operator is a short-term squeeze on revenue, the company walks cannot bid. The Prime Minister rightly asked who that away from the franchise even though there is the prospect public sector bidder would be. I can think of three of long-term growth. A longer franchise period would potential public sector bidders. The first is the public 27WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 28WH

[Hugh Bayley] We need a serious public debate about these issues, and that will take time. Information about the costs of sector company that the Government are establishing running the railway, the number of passengers carried to run the franchise in the event that National Express and the quality of service should be in the public East Coast defaults. A second possible public sector domain. Before the debate, I tabled a number of named bidder is Network Rail. Finally, the residual British Rail day questions to my hon. Friend the Minister. I know Board could bid. that it is difficult to answer questions fully when one is When the Railways Act 1993 was at Committee stage up against the tight time constraint of a named day in the House of Commons, there were long and intense question, but the answers I received were sketchy to say debates about whether British Rail would be able to bid the least. I will re-table the questions and invite the for franchises. As far as I am aware, the relevant section Government to provide more detailed information, because has never been rescinded. Of course, British Rail did the details on passenger numbers, revenues and the not bid at the time because it was under a firm steer surpluses made—both in the British Rail days and since from the Department of Transport not to do so. It was then—need to be in the public domain to enable a wise not a private sector company and therefore was not and sensible decision on the future of the line to be encouraged to bid, despite being permitted to do so made. legally. As far as I am aware, that provision is still on the I have been reading the history of BR and, in the statute book and there is still a British Rail residual 1980s, the Conservative Government had difficulties in body.It would be worth the Government’s while considering establishing the profit line for the BR intercity service, whether it could put in a bid. but it is clear that the profit line was of broadly the Fifthly, the Government should consider whether the same level as that being made by the franchisees of publicly owned company that they are in the process of intercity services at the moment. Therefore, it is possible establishing to run this franchise in the short term for the public sector to make good money out of a should be given an extended period in which to run the commercial railway, although, of course, the social line. It could be given seven years—the length of a railway will continue to need Government support. typical franchise—in which to improve the service and In relation to York, I say this to the Minister. On to rebuild business and passenger confidence. That, of 1 July, the Minister of State, Department for Transport course, would be a return to nationalisation. I am not called me to explain what the Government were doing. putting such an argument forward for ideological reasons; At that time, I said to him that, when the publicly I am doing so because a period of public ownership owned company takes over the franchise, it is important would test whether a public sector supplier would compete that it retains its headquarters in York. Geographically, well with private sector providers on quality and value York is at the centre of the line and, when there is a for money. Of course, if the Minister has considered all major incident, I have seen managers run out of the those matters, he will tell us what the answers are. railway offices and jump on a train. Within two hours, However, if he has not done so, I hope that the Government they can be where they are needed—whether it is a train will hold back on the timetable for refranchising to crash or some other incident. York is a geographically allow those questions—and those that I imagine other sensible place for the headquarters to be and it is, of hon. Members will ask—to be fully considered. I have course, where the service’s headquarters have been for a seldom seen Westminster Hall as full as this for an century. I was pleased that when the Minister made his Adjournment debate, which shows just how important statement to the House on 1 July, he was able to give me this issue is. an assurance that the headquarters would stay in York Many people share my view that the Government as long as the publicly owned company was running the should pause for thought. I asked Yorkshire Forward to service. For the sake of stability, to restore staff confidence consult businesses in my region and, at its prompting, and morale, and to safeguard hundreds of jobs in my the CBI has been consulting its members, whose views constituency, I hope that, this time, if the Government are coming back. One large plc that is based in my refranchise the service, they will require the headquarters constituency suggests that the Government should to remain in York. “get potential fanchisees to compete on a different basis.” There has also been great controversy about the Jonathan Metcalfe, a former managing director of GNER, establishment of ticket barriers at York station. When I supports spoke to the Secretary of State about that, he said that “publicly specified and privately delivered rail operations” his hands were, in effect, tied because one of the conditions of the National Express East Coast franchise was that but advises it is very important that the Government barriers could be installed. If National Express loses “reflect fully on the most appropriate re-franchising arrangements.” the franchise, which seems almost certain, that condition In the Commons on 1 July, the Minister of State, will, of course, no longer exist, so I ask the Government Department for Transport said: to consider that matter again. Among others, I have “It is the Government’s intention to tender for a new east coast spoken to someone who was a manager of the east franchise operator from the end of 2010.”—[Official Report, coast main line when InterCity was running the service. 1 July 2009; Vol. 495, c. 425.] He took out the barriers in 1988 or 1989 and achieved a However, at a meeting yesterday, the Secretary of State revenue increase by putting ticket collectors on the for Transport said that the new public sector company train. will run the service for “at least a year.” I hope that the The Secretary of State has talked about using a Government will not commit to having a new franchise period of public sector consolidation to improve the in place by the end of next year because that would rush quality of the service, for example, in relation to car matters and run the serious risk of the east coast main parking, bicycle parking and on-train catering. Those line franchisee failing once again. are all good things, and I applaud him for taking those 29WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 30WH matters on board. However, they do not deal with the GNER would have had to cut costs and cope with a strategic question, which is that this railway is of difficult economic situation, but it would still be running fundamental economic importance to Yorkshire, the the line. north-east of England, the east midlands and Scotland. Clearly, National Express overbid for the franchise in There has been a hiatus twice in three years; there 2007 and its model’s predictions for passenger numbers, cannot be another hiatus. The Government need to stop revenue and similar data were faulty. However, we should and consider how they have appointed the management remember that that franchising model was overseen by of this railway line in the past. They also need to change the Department for Transport and Ministers, and that how they have determined who will manage the service there was no great difference of opinion on the predictive in order to prevent the vulnerabilities that have led to modelling, as the Department concurred with National the two franchise collapses. Express’s predictions, so it would be unfair and disingenuous to blame only the franchisee for its current situation. Several hon. Members rose— The model was predicated on revenue growth of 10 per cent. and an estimated 4 per cent. increase in Mrs. Joan Humble (in the Chair): Order. There are passenger numbers, but over the 18 months since then several hon. Members who wish to speak in the debate. we have seen falling passenger numbers, fewer journeys I advise those who wish to contribute that I will call and declining passenger revenues. In the period immediately Front-Bench speakers at 12 o’clock, so if hon. Members before the recession kicked in, passenger revenues rose limit their contributions, I will try to allow as many as by about 11 per cent. during the quarterly period in the possible to contribute. middle of 2007. The success of the east coast main line and the 11.27 am long-term financial viability of the franchisee matters a Mr. Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con): It is a great deal to my constituency, which has a strong heritage pleasure to follow the hon. Member for City of York as a railway town—perhaps not as strong as York’s, but (Hugh Bayley), not least because he speaks about the close. For us, the redevelopment of the station quarter railways with passion and a degree of knowledge and and the North Westgate development in Peterborough experience. However, we must bear in mind the are an integral part of the wider regeneration of the circumstances in which the decision was taken and the city, and having a railway station that acts as a good, statement relayed. It is worth repeating the point that it professional facility is vital to my constituents, not least is not acceptable for the Secretary of State for Transport, because Peterborough’s economic prospects are as a Lord Adonis, effectively to make the announcement transport and logistics hub at the confluence of the east on the issue at 7.22 am on the “Today” programme midlands, the east of England and the greater south-east. while we in the House of Commons had to wait until Hitherto, the availability of a fast and efficient service half-past 7 that evening to be told the same thing. So only 50 minutes from London has been of significant doing disregards the new Speaker’s rules. benefit to Peterborough’s economic competitiveness in The hon. Gentleman failed to give us the context of the travel-to-work area. the failure, or seeming failure, of National Express East We are in the current situation because of the value Coast. He assumes that the matter is just about a judgments and decisions of the Secretary of State for commercial enterprise, that there is no greater Government Transport, Lord Adonis. He is responsible for the current or ministerial context and that the franchise system has situation. Two weeks ago he told the media—before he failed. Obviously, in doing so he pays homage to the told Parliament, incidentally—that the Department traditional visceral hatred of privatisation that we see “does not renegotiate rail franchises”. among those on the Labour Back Benches. Two weeks That raises the question, why did the Department spend ago, there was a knee-jerk reaction from various people five months from February 2009 negotiating with National who see what has happened as a green light to proceed Express, the parent company, if it was not prepared, with full renationalisation and an opportunity to roll ultimately, to vary the franchise arrangements in any back the progress made under privatisation. way? At the same time, other train operating companies, The hon. Gentleman fails to concede that the micro- such as First Great Western and Virgin West Coast, management and interference of Ministers, the Department have received taxpayer subsidy at an earlier juncture for Transport and the Government generally have played than was possible for National Express East Coast, a part in what has occurred over the past few months. which would have received that support from December He says that he wants a serious public debate, but so do 2011, as the hon. Member for City of York mentioned. we all. That is at variance, however, with his contention We should remember that National Express has not yet that the current situation will lead to instability and defaulted on its payments with regard to the east coast lack of clarity, which will be bad for business in Yorkshire main line operation and that before the downturn revenues and the Humber and along the east coast main line in were growing ahead of the target set when the franchise the rest of the country, including my constituency. was awarded. I do not believe that we need a long period of 18 months The Department for Transport had an opportunity or more of quasi-nationalisation, which would not be earlier this year to maintain the franchise, with a cash good for the industry, and certainly not for the east sum to the Treasury, until the taxpayer subsidy could be coast main line. It is, of course, a prestigious line, and given to the company in December 2011, but it rejected we are all sorry that it is in its current position. I believe the offer and plunged the east coast main line franchise that Great North Eastern Railway was a good train into uncertainty and confusion, and ultimately the inevitable operator, and were it not for the problems with the incompetence of the Government running that vital chapter 11 situation that afflicted Sea Containers in railway franchise. Ultimately, taxpayers will absorb most 2007, it would still be running a fairly good service. of the loss if the revenue on the franchise is below target 31WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 32WH

[Mr. Stewart Jackson] Given the short time available, I wish to make only two points. The first concerns the open-access operators growth. As we heard from the hon. Gentleman, growth on the line, Hull Trains and Grand Central, which my in the first quarter of this year was down to just 0.3 per hon. Friend mentioned and which I regard as important. cent., which clearly does not auger well. I also want to argue briefly why I think there is merit in I disagree with the hon. Gentleman because it is the Government being firm, bold and clear in saying imperative that the Government move quickly to relet that they will run the east coast main line franchise in the franchise as soon as possible, but he is right that we the public sector as a public sector comparator to the need to know the cost to the taxpayer of that likely rest of the industry for 10 to 15 years to give certainty. process over the next 18 months. We have to ask what There are three open-access operators in the country, impact there will be on other budgets as a result of the and two of them are on the east coast main line. One of public subsidy needed to keep the franchise as a pseudo- the real benefits of rail privatisation was that for the nationalised franchise. That is important, if other vital first time it was possible for new operators to risk programmes are to be affected. money and institute new services for underserved areas We also need to look at franchise length. As the right of the country. My constituents in Selby lost their east hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) coast main line connection when the mines came to said, it is no coincidence that the most successful train Selby and the railway was diverted. It was truly a operating company, Chiltern Railways, has an exceptionally red-letter day when GNER and Hull Trains both put long franchise, compared to the others, so we must Selby back on the map. Seeing Selby on the board at consider that. It is something that neither the Minister King’s Cross station is a little like having a lower division nor the hon. Member for City of York can disregard. football team. We cannot go back to nationalisation, despite what Selby railway station is a friendly place. I recall at the some hon. Members might say. Even The Independent, height of the expenses row—I must have been looking which is not traditionally a great friend of private very bleak—the manageress coming up to me and hugging enterprise or the Conservative party, said on 2 July that me. She said, “You look like you need a hug, love.” “there is no case for resurrecting the inefficient British Rail… the There we are—a very friendly place. railways have generally improved in private hands over the past Grand Central Railway is the other open-access operator. 15 years. Passenger numbers are at their highest levels since the Second World War and the quality of rolling stock is much It had a bad start, but last week it was named by higher.” Passenger Focus as the second most popular of all the railway companies in the country, after a vote by ordinary We need to look at governance structures and review passengers. The company that beat it, Wrexham and the cap-and-collar regime. We need to accept that there Shropshire, is also an open-access operator. We should is likely to be some cost-cutting in the short term, but I value such operators’ innovation and the risks that they believe that that is worth while if the medium and take. long-term financial viability of the franchise is preserved and can continue in private hands. We must remain Hull Trains, which has been taken over by First focused on the strategic and economic importance of Group, needs to raise its game. It is letting the people of the east coast main line and ensure that we continue to Selby down with too many cancellations. First Group, deliver a professional, fast, quality and value-for-money as the parent company, needs to put that right in the service for the benefit of our constituents across the coming weeks. country. I agree with my hon. Friend about the barriers at I do not disagree with the hon. Member for City of York station. They are potentially a barrier to competition York on the issue of disaggregated franchises, because as well as to people. Grand Central allows passengers to there might be merit in that and we should look at it. buy tickets on the train, unlike National Express, which Nor do I disagree that we should look at contracting discourages that. It has to be looked at. out top-level management. The new Conservative The Government resisted open-access for many years. Government, who I hope will be elected in the middle of The Department for Transport was not keen on Grand next year, will undoubtedly look at that point, and my Central or Hull Trains because they disrupted the franchise hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen system, but they are a valuable part of the railway and Hammond), the shadow Minister, will perhaps refer should be maintained. to it. Moving on to the franchise itself, there is a need for Finally, we need further institutional disruption in certainty.As my hon. Friend said, business in the north-east Network Rail like we need a hole in the head. We and in Yorkshire and down the central spine of the should leave Network Rail well alone, because disruption country depends on the franchise. I do not think that we will not work and there is no case for it. We are in a can continue this debate for too long, to be honest. difficult position, so we should relet the franchise quickly, There is a general election coming and it is essential that put away notions of renationalisation and get that all the parties are clear about what will happen to this service working for our constituents and the benefit of major franchise. the whole country. I have been inspired by the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), who, along with many others, put 11.39 am forward the idea of a public sector comparator. Why Mr. John Grogan (Selby) (Lab): It is a great pleasure should we not see who is right? Why should we not have to follow the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson), one of the major franchises run by the public sector for and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for City a long period—10 to 15 years—to see what happens? In of York (Hugh Bayley), who is my constituency neighbour, 2008, the rail business of the year in the United Kingdom on securing the debate. was a nationalised railway. It is called Translink and it 33WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 34WH just happens to be in Northern Ireland. There is a However, there is continuing concern about what the public sector comparator in Northern Ireland, so why future holds for that line. I shall concentrate in my brief can we not have one on the mainland? Otherwise, we contribution on my constituency and the Scottish situation. will have a debate that goes on for possibly a year or The Government have made it clear that they intend more. to try to find a new franchisee for the line. I have no Just saying that we will keep the line in public sector ideological feeling one way or the other as to whether it hands for a year, 18 months or some indeterminate should be the public sector. I have no objection to the period is the worst of all worlds. If that is what we are public sector or the private sector running it. What I going to do, we might as well refranchise immediately, want for my constituents and the businesses in my as the hon. Member for Peterborough suggested. We constituency is certainty for the future. Twice the franchise need some clarity and certainty, and I strongly urge the has been removed from an existing operator. That causes Minister to consider the possibility of keeping the franchise concern, and we do not want to get into such a situation in the public sector so that we can plan for the next 10 to again. We want assurance that the line will continue to 15 years. We are coming up to a general election. I operate in the future. That is important. would be absolutely confident, as a Labour MP in I regularly use the line to come to London from Yorkshire, that that would be a popular policy. We Montrose. The journey takes six and one half hours. It could go into the election saying that we would keep the is a marginal decision as to whether one should fly or line in public sector hands, and presumably the take the train. It is probably quicker to fly, but it is much Conservatives would oppose that. less hassle to take the train, and many of us prefer to I finish with the words of Lord Adonis, who recently take the train for that reason and for climate change told the New Statesman: reasons. We are less concerned about who runs it than “If I could rerun the past… I would have tried to pull the plug that it is well run and that we have a regular service. on rail privatisation in the mid-1990s… So much about transport The situation in Scotland is complicated by the fact is basically about action versus inaction… and I am an action merchant.” that, although National Express runs the franchise, it does not run the stations. They are run under a separate I believe that there are many—not just on the Labour franchise given by the Scottish Government. In fact, the Benches, but on the Liberal Benches—who would agree stations in my constituency are run by ScotRail. I ask that it is time for action, not indecision, Lord Adonis. the Minister whether there has been any discussion with the Scottish Government on the new company that will Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): Will the hon. be set up to run the line, should National Express give it Gentleman give way? up, and what the position will be of the UK and Scottish Governments on the future of the franchise Mr. Grogan: I was about to conclude, but I give way and the new company. to the hon. Gentleman. Trains currently stop in my constituency at Montrose and Arbroath, and throughout Fife. They provide an Stephen Hammond: I know that the hon. Gentleman important service to London. The downside is that, is concluding, but does he want to quote what Lord north of Edinburgh, the service is much slower than it is Adonis said about British Rail in that New Statesman through England. That is for various reasons. The line article? is not electrified, but that is another issue; I shall not open that can of worms now. However, it is a successful line. Mr. Grogan: It is not highlighted in my copy, and, as I have had my five minutes, I would not want to detain I tried to find the passenger figures for the line. It hon. Members. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will appears that since National Express took over in 2007, remind us of Lord Adonis’s many and wonderfully it has failed to submit any data on passenger journeys varied sayings when he gets up to speak. to the Office of the Rail Regulator, but figures in the company’s accounts seem to indicate that passenger journeys increased from 18.1 million to 18.7 million 11.45 am between December 2007 and December 2008. That Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I congratulate the seems fairly reasonable, given the trajectory of figures hon. Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley) on securing from GNER, which show that passenger journeys increased this important debate. I agree with much of what he from 11.9 million to 17.6 million between 1996 and said, particularly about the economic importance of the 2006. Travel on the line remains popular. line, which applies to my constituency as much as it From my own unscientific view of travelling on the does to his. I shall not go over that again, other than to train regularly, I would accept that there probably has say that there is a big employer in my constituency, been a decrease in numbers during the recession, but GlaxoSmithKline, whose factory, after a rollercoaster not by a horrendously significant amount. It would be ride, was not closed. It continues to work. I recently had interesting to see the data and to find out what brought a meeting with the company’s management, who stressed National Express to the position that it is now in. To be to me the importance for its operation of having a rail fair, my experience is that it runs a good service on the line to Montrose. That should be borne in mind. line, and I feel some regret that it appears to be on the The news about National Express came as a great way out. blow to my constituency, although I was pleased that My constituency and other parts of the north-east Lord Adonis quickly made a statement on the future of are haunted by worry about what will happen to services the line and gave a clear undertaking that there would if the line is refranchised. We must be honest and accept be no disruption to the service. That was much appreciated. that many of the journeys are made through England 35WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 36WH

[Mr. Mike Weir] cannot have repeated franchise abandonment, because it has a demoralising effect on staff, it causes a loss of and up to Edinburgh. It has been reported, for example, confidence among customers, particularly among business as I mentioned in an intervention, that in talks on the customers, who plan over a long period, and there is the franchise between National Express and the Department danger that we will not get rolling stock improvement there was discussion about cutting off-peak half-hourly and acquisition that is badly needed, given the tired services from King’s Cross to Leeds to an hourly service. state of some of the rolling stock on the service at the I am concerned that, if the line is refranchised, there moment. will be a lesser service, particularly north of Edinburgh, which would be a disaster for my constituency for I shall mention in a moment what should now happen business and environmental reasons, and in respect of with the bidding process, but first I express the hope, holidays, as many of my constituents travel on the train which other hon. Members have expressed, that some to catch holiday flights at the airports around London. recent grievances are dealt with as a side-benefit of the disaster of National Express’s walking away from the Clearly, whoever takes over the franchise will not franchise. Let us put a stop to the nonsense of installing enter into the same agreement as National Express and, ticket barriers, not just at York, but at Newcastle and presumably, it will not do so on the basis of the same other stations, which will bring to the railway system sort of figure, because the massive amount paid for that the disadvantages of air travel. One of the competitive seems to be the cause of the problem. I ask the Minister advantages of that system is that it is easy to get on a for a categorical assurance that, in the event of the train and there is less danger of people being caught in franchise being awarded to another operator, it will a queue and missing it. Let us also get rid of the odious continue at least with the current level of service and seat reservation charge, which was one of National that trains will continue to stop at stations throughout Express’s most foolish decisions. the north-east of Scotland, particularly at Arbroath and Montrose in my constituency. If a new operator I am particularly concerned that the Minister ensures sought to cut down those services, that would have a that in any new specification, including for the period of terrible effect on the north-east of Scotland. public ownership, services from Berwick and Alnmouth We need investment in the line. We need electrification. and the limited service from Morpeth are maintained. We need, eventually or as quickly as possible, a high-speed Given that the Secretary of State has committed himself rail line, but in the meantime, we must at least maintain to improvements, can we please have some real effort the service that we have; I seek an assurance on that behind the improvement of car parking at Alnmouth from the Minister. Lord Adonis will be having a meeting and Berwick and the introduction of a proper train with interested Members of Parliament on Monday, at information system at Alnmouth, so that passengers are which I hope he will say more about that. I stress that, not left standing on an empty platform late at night for my constituents and for the north-east of Scotland, with not the faintest idea of whether a train has been that is the important point. delayed or will arrive? Every station that I go to in the south-east of England has an efficient train information 11.51 am system, and many stations in other parts of the country have such provision. Alnmouth station ought to have Shona McIsaac (Cleethorpes) (Lab): I, too, congratulate that, particularly because there are periods when it is my hon. Friend the Member for City of York (Hugh unstaffed. Bayley) on securing this important debate. Casting my mind back a few weeks to a debate in I do not want the service to be split between several Westminster Hall on rail services to Grimsby and operators, as the hon. Member for City of York (Hugh Cleethorpes, I recall that I mentioned that National Bayley) suggested. We already have three operators Express was discussing putting in a direct service to north of Newcastle—Arriva, CrossCountry and those towns from the capital city, so, unlike my hon. Northern—and we do not want to confuse the service Friend the Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan), who can more. I remind the Minister that Northern runs services see his constituency on the board at King’s Cross, we on the east coast main line, including one to Belford have not quite got that far yet. Therefore, my main that nobody can get on because there is still no rail question to my hon. Friend the Minister is what will platform there. I hope that the Minister will put his happen to those future developments on the line? Is it weight behind carrying that proposal through to a still possible for us to get the one return service a day solution. I do not want the service to be further split from King’s Cross to Grimsby and Cleethorpes that between more operators and I do not want another was promised, particularly given some of the major failed franchise bidder. industrial investment along the Humber bank at the I agree that there is merit in not rushing this process. I moment? am attracted by the suggestion of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), which he [JOHN CUMMINGS in the Chair] will no doubt develop when he catches your eye, Mr. Cummings, as I hope he will, on a public sector 11.53 am comparator on the line, at least for a period. That could be a positive way forward. Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): I am glad that we are having this debate. I want to contribute The line is essential to the region. The services from briefly to it because of the vast importance of the east centres such as Berwick, Alnmouth and Morpeth serve coast main line to the north-east of England and to a wide area and must be maintained. We want some eastern Scotland. Two companies have walked away consistency and confidence in the operation of this vital from the franchise. We cannot go on like this. We service. 37WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 38WH

11.56 am think people have been most concerned about is that Aberdeen does not get a fair deal on railway services. John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab): We Indeed, although there is a franchise from London to discussed the future of the rail industry in this Chamber Aberdeen, very often the northern part of the line is the on 3 June, when we predicted that franchises would be neglected part, as the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) handed back within weeks. We were proved right. Concerns will know. were raised in a submission by the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers to the Transport We want to ensure that, first, there is a full operation Committee in October 2007 about the fact that, if the of the line, that runs absolutely from London to Aberdeen, country went into recession and passenger numbers fell, with a full service provided throughout the line. there would be problems with the franchisers and that Furthermore, I believe that the case for a public sector we would, as a Government, need to stand ready to comparator is a good one. intervene directly. Secondly and lastly, we want to ensure that we have a I cannot understand the nature of today’s debate. sensible and competitive fare structure. It is ridiculous Two franchisers have failed on this line in three years, that people trying to book a long time in advance find yet the solution seems to be more franchising. I do not that it is cheaper to fly than to use the railways. Surely a understand why we do not learn lessons from what has public owner could find a way to encourage people on happened. National Express has taken the Government to the railways rather than off them and on to air travel. for a ride. It has made £500 million profit out of a public subsidy of £2.5 billion. It has increased the fares 12 noon this year as follows: regulated at 6 per cent. and unregulated at 7.4 per cent. On the east coast and the East Anglia Norman Baker (Lewes) (LD): I agree with all that my lines, it has laid off 750 workers. Cannot we get the right hon. Friend the Member for Gordon (Malcolm message that we are being ripped off? Bruce) has just said, so I will not repeat any of it. The proposal that we advanced when the south-eastern Instead, let me pick up on the statement by the Secretary trains franchise company, Connex, went down was to of State for Transport on the “Today” programme, put the line in the public sector. We wanted a public which has already been referred to. I want to be very sector comparator at least to prove its worth so that we fair about it. The Secretary of State was responding to a could see whether forms of public ownership could press release from National Express; that is entirely work elsewhere, but the Government reprivatised. A different from a Government-orientated release coming public sector comparator should be used as an example, ahead of a parliamentary statement. Therefore, I clear because some believe that we can demonstrate that the him on that count. However, there is an issue about public ownership option can work. If we had a comparator Members of the House of Lords being in the Cabinet option, at least that would sharpen up the opportunities and there not being a statement in the Commons until to increase the efficiency of other rail providers. That is half-past 7 that evening. The Government either need the whole point. to have the Secretary of State making statements in the Standing back from ideology, it is about trying to get Commons, even though that would break procedure, or a rational, pragmatic approach on how we go forward we must have the Minister of State making a statement on the matter. I can think of nothing worse than in the Commons ahead of the Secretary of State making rushing to reprivatise within 15 months, with the turbulence, a statement. We cannot be treated like that again on yet again, of a franchise exercise. Remember the costs major statements about this matter. of franchising, which we discovered in respect of London On the franchise offer, it is a sad state of affairs for Underground: £400 million was spent on consultants, Members along the east coast line and for others who accountants and others to set up a private finance are rightly concerned about the disruption, the uncertainty initiative disaster. I am urging people to stand back. and the hiatus that is being caused, as well as the Let me say one thing about the myths about British message that is being sent to the travelling public and, Rail. The last independent study, by Catalyst in 1995, indeed, the consequences for public finances of yet said that, in comparison with the rest of Europe, for the another failure of the franchise. Clearly, there are lessons levels of investment, British Rail was the most efficient for National Express, but there are also lessons for the service in Europe. We now know that infrastructure Treasury and the Department for Transport on how the costs have gone up fivefold since privatisation and that franchise process works. fares have increased dramatically and impacted on the Richard Bowker said on behalf of National Express, overall service. Therefore, let us at least come with some when he launched the bid for the franchise: objectivity to the debate. On this exercise, at least allow “We will not bid at levels that we think are unsustainable or us to have a public sector option, which will enable us to undeliverable. There is no point in being a hero for a day and a demonstrate that the public sector can have a role to villain forever more afterwards.” play in the rail industry. He seems to have got that calculation slightly adrift. John Cummings (in the Chair): I am keen to call the The DFT recognised that there was an issue about winding-up speeches at 12. the level of the National Express bid, even if the Treasury did not. Dr. Mike Mitchell, the director general for rail in the DFT, told the Public Affairs Committee on 11.59 am 21 January that the east coast franchise had been placed Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD): Thank you, at the Government’s highest “red” financial risk and the Mr. Cummings. I will be very brief indeed. DFT was quite rightly making provision for what would Aberdeen is a wonderful place and it contributes an happen if the franchise fell over. As I say, that was way enormous amount to the national economy, but it is a back in January. We then had further indications from long way from everywhere. One of the things that I National Express that it was in financial difficulty. As 39WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 40WH

[Norman Baker] I believe that, if we are to have a default, it is right that we should have a cross-default invoked. Otherwise, the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr. Jackson) has the message certainly goes out to the industry that it can already said, there were discussions over quite a long walk away from that which it does not like and keep that period between the DFT and National Express about which is profitable. That would not be a satisfactory the way forward. outcome for the taxpayer—we cannot have that. So the In those circumstances, it is rather odd that the DFT company has to pay a penalty if it walks away from the is still not able to say whether or not it will invoke east coast franchise. cross-default procedures for the other two National Express franchises. One might have thought that, after John McDonnell: National Express has released a a number of months of anticipation, it would have the statement that says: answer immediately to hand. Will the DFT invoke “The Group would oppose any attempt by the DfT to cross cross-default procedures for the other two National default, in order to protect shareholder value.” Express franchises, for East Anglia and c2c, which runs Perhaps we can send a message from this debate that we out to Southend and Shoeburyness, or will it not do so? will take National Express on, if necessary. We still do not have an answer to that question, so let me ask the Minister now when will we have an answer, Norman Baker: I very much hope that the Secretary because the uncertainty that applies to the east coast of State is looking at that issue. Indeed, reading between line is now affecting other franchise areas. the lines—I do not know whether or not this is a fair assessment—the officials in the DFT were willing to The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport look at a business arrangement involving a management (Chris Mole): I just want to draw the hon. Gentleman’s contract and negotiations with National Express. To be attention to the fact that cross-default does not come fair to the Ministers, they said no to that. That is how I into play until the current franchisee hands the keys read the situation; perhaps the Minister can clarify back, which has not yet happened. whether or not that happened. We have a cost in place already, of course. A new Norman Baker: That is true, of course, but it means public sector company has been set up—the East Coast more months of uncertainty for people in East Anglia— Main Line Company. Elaine Holt has been appointed including people in the Norwich, North area—and for to run that company and, no doubt, an infrastructure is people who live along the line out to Southend and in place. Therefore, can the Minister tell us how much Shoeburyness. has been spent already on the public sector body that Indeed, there is an oddity about this business of has been set up to run the east coast main line in the whether or not National Express has defaulted. The event of a default? Is Elaine Holt already being paid for National Express statement on 1 July made it plain that her job? What are her terms of employment? Furthermore, it had failed in discussions with the DFT—that is what if National Express does not default, how much money National Express said—and it expected to hand the will be wasted in the shadow process that has been keys back, as the Minister puts it, late in 2009. Lord established to date? Adonis then made a statement, effectively saying that To pick up on an important local point, it is also National Express had defaulted in all but name; he vital, for stability, that the headquarters of the line certainly gave the impression that it was a cast-iron case remains in York. The hon. Member for City of York of the company defaulting. National Express then said, (Hugh Bayley) made that point himself and Andrew in a further statement in response to the Secretary of Waller, the Liberal Democrat leader of the city council State: in York, has made a similar point to me, so there is “National Express East Coast is continuing to run the East cross-party agreement on that important issue. As other Coast business… Despite suggestions that the Government is Members have already said, if National Express finally taking over the running of East Coast today, this is absolutely defaults, we must look long and hard at where we go NOT true. Further comments that the National Express Group with that franchise and the franchise process more has “financial problems” which have led to it “defaulting” on its generally. commitments to East Coast are also NOT true.” As other Members have already said, it seems quite There appears to be some dispute between National clear that the idea of a public service comparator is Express and the Government. Of course, the possibility sensible. First, it gives stability to that franchise; it lets therefore exists that we will not have a default—at least, people have confidence that there will be no further National Express maintains that that is a possibility—and change of ownership, delivery and everything else within that it will continue to run the east coast service, so that another 18 months to two years. Secondly, it enables the this debate will, in a sense, become unnecessary. DFT, with those in the industry, to say, “How can we What is clear, however, is that the passengers on the rearrange the franchise, so that we put passengers first? east coast line, the members of the staff employed by Let’s have some passenger-orientated outputs, rather National Express on the line and all those who depend than simply having Treasury-driven outputs. What do on the line for economic reasons are in a period of the passengers want out of this?” That would drive up uncertainty, which is causing disruption and problems performance and not just on the east coast main line. for the economy, the future of the railways and those of By the way, I do not think that National Express is us who believe in attracting people on to the railways particularly bad, which was the point that the hon. and away from more carbon-intensive means of transport. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) made. None the less, that The sooner that the matter is sorted out, the better. We process would still drive up performance and get rid of cannot drift on with it for several months, although, these nonsensical own goals, such as £5 reservation unfortunately, that appears to be what will happen. tickets and getting rid of some of the buffet facilities. 41WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 42WH

Some of those actions have cut costs but damaged Where could a Member of Parliament have obtained passenger confidence in the service. We should therefore the statement from Lord Adonis at 7 o’clock in the use that public service comparator to tell other franchise morning? holders, “Well, this is happening on the east coast main line. It is very popular. Why don’t you extend it to other Shona McIsaac: It is only fair to put it on the record areas of your operation as well?” Without that public and try to get the hon. Gentleman to acknowledge that service comparator, I do not think that we have the there were plans to make the statement in the House of tools or the leverage to pull up the rest of the industry Commons much earlier. Several attempts were made to in a way that I would like. make the statement earlier in the day, but the Opposition— There is a case for longer franchises, but they must be his party—objected to those timings. based on a five-year review period, to find out whether passenger-orientated targets are being met. If we drive Stephen Hammond: No, without wishing to pull the things towards the passenger rather than towards the hon. Lady up, that is simply not true. It was indicated Treasury, we will end up with a better railway system by her own side that the statement in the House could than we might otherwise end up with. It is very important happen at 5 o’clock and Mr. Speaker rejected that. that the Government, having got in this situation partly Also, as the Minister of State attends Cabinet, he is but not entirely through their own making, now set surely competent and should have been able to make some very clear signals about where the east coast main that statement at 12.30. line is going, in what time scale and at what cost. The The one thing about which we can all agree is that the longer that we delay, the more uncertainty that we have, Government rightly say that they do not want any the more that the railway suffers, the more that the train impact on passengers. However, much of what is happening passengers suffer and the more that the people employed and much of this debate is still clouded by a huge lack by the railway suffer. Those are not outcomes that I of clarity and huge uncertainty. As the hon. Member wish to see. for Lewes said, there is some dispute about what the company actually said and what the Government actually said. Can the Minister therefore confirm that the east 12.9 pm coast main line franchise has not been nationalised, that Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con): This is an National Express Group has not yet been stripped of its important debate, as several hon. Members said, and franchise—I think that he confirmed that in an intervention I congratulate the hon. Member for City of York (Hugh a few moments ago—and that it is still running the Bayley) on securing it. He made some comments about franchise until it fails to meet its obligations? When the Conservative party and the view on franchising. He does he anticipate that those obligations will fail to be will know, if he has read our documents, that we have met? If, in the mad world that the Prime Minister seems indicated that we think that there should be a quantitative to believe in, there was a huge bounce in the economy in as well as a qualitative judgment, and we agree that the next month and National Express East Coast started franchises should be longer. to meet the obligations again, would all this be an irrelevance? The hon. Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) quoted Lord Adonis and his wise words. I think that he will The statement that has been made requires careful find, if he reads the rest of the article in the New examination. Are the Government convinced that the Statesman—I do not have it with me today, but I read it way in which they made the statement that they intend last night—that Lord Adonis said that he was not to take National Express into a public special vehicle, starry-eyed and no one would want to go back to the rather than allowing the franchise to go into default, bad old days of British Rail and a nationalised industry. will not have adverse legal consequences? The Government I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will correct me if rightly said that they would not renegotiate the terms of that is not quite what Lord Adonis said, but I am pretty the franchise. Can the Minister confirm today what certain that that is what the wise words are. meetings the east coast group had with the Government before 1 May? Can he confirm the report published in The hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker) says The Sunday Telegraph on 5 July that, if the Government that he clears the Secretary of State on the point about had taken the options offered to them by National the procedures, the announcements and the technicalities Express Group at that stage, the liability for the taxpayer at 7 o’clock. I cannot agree, because if the Secretary of would have been between £120 million and £200 million, State was only responding to a statement from National not £1.4 billion? Express, he assembled in 22 minutes a panoply of apparatus to put in place a takeover. If he was only Can the Minister confirm that there was a letter responding—I know how the process works, having between the Department and National Express Group? worked in the corporate world—he would almost certainly There was an allegation in that regard in the 15 to have seen that statement the night before and could 28 July edition of Rail magazine. It stated that even have instructed one of his Ministers to come to the “a letter of May 1, on Adonis’ behalf, allegedly discussed a deal House at 10 o’clock the night before and make a statement. which would have seen NEG renegotiate on and hand over a The reality was that 12 hours after the stock exchange, £100m compensation payment.” eleven and a half hours after the “Today” programme Can the Minister confirm that that letter exists and and four hours after the House of Lords, the House of that there would have been a compensation payment of Commons heard about it—then and only then. I am £100 million? sure that the Minister will say, “Ah, but the House of Commons could have accessed the statement at 7 am.” Hugh Bayley: I think that it is misleading to suggest Will he tell us exactly what was open at 7 o’clock in the that, if National Express defaults, that will cost the morning? Was it the Library? Was it the Vote Office? taxpayer £1.4 billion. It is clear that a publicly owned 43WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 44WH

[Hugh Bayley] I accept that there is commercial sensitivity about whether we might want to exercise the cross-default company running the service will make broadly the option, but the same clearly does not apply—this is same surplus as National Express. I have talked to where I agree entirely with the hon. Member for Lewes—to Andrew Adonis about that. There is no prospect whatever legal advice that is not commercially sensitive and that of the Department losing £1.4 billion. relates to the circumstances in which the cross-default option may or may not be exercised. Crucially, if the Stephen Hammond: I will come on to the hon. Government have a contract only with the operational Gentleman’s point about exactly what the Minister company, not the holding company, is there any potential thinks the foregone income and the income gained liability for cross-default? might be. In a moment, the Minister will undoubtedly talk Are the Government satisfied that, as they will take about the franchising system and use the fig leaf of the over the franchise, the holding company’s liabilities—the National Audit Office, which said that the system is £40 million loan and the £32 million performance bond— “generally well thought through”. Although the NAO are still liable? Can the Minister confirm that that is the uses the word “generally”, we should be clear that that cap to the holding company’s liability? This is very does not apply to the way in which the franchising important for the point about cross-default: can he process worked with the east coast main line. confirm that the contract in existence is with National How much blame can be attached to the Government? Express East Coast, not National Express Group? If so, They introduced the franchising system; they specified there is a financial firewall between the holding company, the current franchise; they wrote the contract; and they National Express East Coast and the Government. capped National Express Group’s holding company That will certainly protect the company and adversely liability. They must therefore accept an amount of impact any possibility of the taxpayer or the Government responsibility. We are not sure quite what the cost to the being able to initiate cross-default. taxpayer will be, and we will be able to assess that only The statement says that all other rail companies are over the weeks and months to come. fulfilling their contracts, but we know that there is a watch list in the DFT; that has been widely talked about. Can the Minister today talk about the arrangements 12.21 pm that he is putting in place to ensure that the Government are doing their due diligence? If, in similar circumstances, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport they find another holding company making the same (Chris Mole): First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the announcement, is it their intention to do the same Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley) on securing thing? the debate and giving us an opportunity to discuss rail On the point made by the hon. Member for City of services on the east coast main line. Clearly, the subject York in his intervention, did the Government analyse is of interest to many Members of the House. the option of offering a management contract to National In addressing the many issues that have been raised, I Express or any other operator? What would have been doubt that I will be able to cover the swathe of hypotheticals the cost and what potential income would have been offered by the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, the generated? What is the total cost of the new public hon. Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond), liability holding? The special vehicle—the public liability which were invariably spurious. holding company—is to take over the day-to-day running The east coast main line is an exceptionally valuable of the east coast franchise. That is what the Minister of asset in the national transport system. It provides the State said, but he failed to tell us exactly what capital fastest surface transport between London and the Yorkshire the Government intend to put into that body. Exactly and Humber region, north-east England, Edinburgh what working capital will they put into that body? and beyond. It is also vital for freight, particularly as Clearly, in the period after National Express is taken part of the link from major ports to distribution centres over by the public liability holding company until the in large conurbations and to coal-fired power stations. franchise is taken over, some income may well be generated. The east coast main line is a busy route, which is used Does the Minister expect that the new company will by six of the 16 passenger train operating companies, derive substantially the same revenue and the same two open-access operators, which my hon. Friend the profit as the holding company? If not, will the Government Member for Selby (Mr. Grogan) mentioned, and freight say exactly how the shortfall between the total premium operators. Its value is underlined by the demand to run payment of £1.4 billion and whatever is derived will be additional services. Last year, for example, the Office of made up? Has the Treasury given a commitment to pay Rail Regulation considered applications for additional extra money? Will fares increase, or will public transport passenger services from not only National Express East be cut elsewhere? Coast and the two existing open-access operators, but The Government have rightly said that franchisees two aspirant open-access operators. should not be able to run profitable franchises and hand back non-profitable franchises and that that would be At this time, there is rightly a focus on the difficulties the worst of all worlds, certainly for the user—the of National Express East Coast. However, before I talk passenger—the taxpayer and other rail companies, because about the Government’s plans for the future of the it breeds uncertainty. So far, threats have been made, franchise, it is worth reminding ourselves that the overall but no action has been taken. We have had talk of other story of the east coast main line is one of success. defaulters not remaining in the rail industry, and the GNER was the first inter-city franchisee on the route Minister of State has talked about keeping all options and during its initial franchise it set the pace for the rest open. of the industry in quality and customer service. The 45WH East Coast Main Line14 JULY 2009 East Coast Main Line 46WH number of weekday services grew from 100 at privatisation point in the future, therefore, the DFT will take over the to 112. In 2006, it grew again to the current 136, with operation of the inter-city east coast franchise through the introduction of half-hourly services to Leeds. Directly Operated Railways, a DFT company established The timetable is set to grow again, and my hon. for that purpose. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Shona McIsaac) I should say to the hon. Member for Peterborough will be pleased to hear that from December 2010 there (Mr. Jackson) that the departmental officials who originally will be an additional 25 services a day, including a evaluated the bid judged it to be deliverable. The National two-hourly service between Lincoln and London. For Express bid was not the highest. I also reject his assertion the first time in many years, that service will provide a that we spent five months negotiating with National regular direct train service to her area. Express. We have not negotiated with National Express and we never renegotiate franchises. Shona McIsaac: Not my constituency. We plan to operate the business for about 12 to 18 months while a competition is undertaken to select a Chris Mole: Not directly to my hon. Friend’s constituency. new private sector operator. The Government’s role in Punctuality, which is passengers’ No. 1 concern, has running trains is purely short term, as required by the improved dramatically. It has risen steadily since National Railways Act 1993. Express East Coast took over the franchise, with the This is, of course, the second time in three years that moving annual average rising from 81.7 to 87.6 per cent. an inter-city east coast franchisee has been unable to Daily punctuality levels are now frequently above continue for the full duration of its franchise. In both 90 per cent., and several 100 per cent. days have been cases, external economic circumstances were a factor, as achieved. was the inability of the bids submitted to withstand We have seen tremendous innovation on the route, those changed circumstances. with wi-fi being introduced first to 10 trains and then to Some have argued that those two failures demonstrate the whole east coast inter-city fleet—I have ambitions that the franchising system is fatally flawed. I disagree to see that on the service that I use every week. Stations with that view. Across the industry, passenger numbers on the route have also benefited from substantial and are at their highest since the 1940s, punctuality is above sustained investment, with the quality of the facilities 90 per cent. and customer satisfaction is rising. That all being offered being recognised at places such as Durham, points to the fact that we are talking about an isolated which was declared station of the year at the 2008 failure in an otherwise successful system. national rail awards. There are two important points to remember in the Finally, we should remember that the inter-city east current situation. First, the Government are protecting coast franchise is one of those rare breeds that return a passengers by taking control of the inter-city east coast premium to the Department, and that premium is reinvested franchise. Our aim is to secure a seamless transition in the railway industry. Events of the recent past may from National Express East Coast to Directly Operated have reduced the premiums available, but we can still Railways and to a new franchisee in due course. Secondly, confidently expect a significant return. the Government are protecting taxpayers by holding The Department for Transport recently appointed a franchisees to their agreements and not renegotiating new franchisee to the South Central franchise following contracts, which some could interpret as reward for a strongly contested competition. That demonstrates failure. Risk sharing and risk transfer are part of the the market’s belief in the franchise system. The recent franchise system. Franchisees must be able to shoulder events surrounding National Express East Coast, the the risk in hard times, just as they benefit in good times. current inter-city east coast franchisee, have generated The hon. Member for Peterborough asserted that significant interest and debate. None of us takes any other operators have received revenue support sooner pleasure in the failure of a business or in a company’s than four years into the franchise. It is true that the inability to fulfil its contract to the Government. My First Great Western franchise included a provision whereby hon. Friend the Member for City of York asserted that revenue support became available after two years, but train operating companies take all the benefit while the that was an exceptional arrangement. Government take all the pain, but I draw his attention to the fact that companies normally have revenue risk John McDonnell: A written statement on the First for four years, after which Government revenue support Great Western franchise is being made today. Is this comes into effect. However, the revenue share mechanism another key being handed back in? commences from day one, so excess profits are immediately shared with the Government. Chris Mole: No, there is no indication that that is what the statement is about. Hon. Members will find Mr. Stewart Jackson: Will the Minister give way? that it is about performance against the recovery plan that was put in place for First Great Western. Franchise Chris Mole: I would rather not because I have limited bids must be sustainable and deliverable in the long time. term. Franchisees must be able to stand behind their The National Express bid was predicated on growth bids for the duration of the franchise. We expect rates that, although reasonable at the time, proved nothing less. undeliverable in the current economic climate. That has The east coast main line is a long route with many led National Express to conclude that it will be unable stakeholders who have clear views as to what the franchise to maintain the franchise into the foreseeable future. should provide, and I have listened with great interest to The Secretary of State has made it abundantly clear the views expressed today. Hon. Members will be pleased that the DFT does not renegotiate franchises. At a to hear that the DFT is preparing for a full public 47WH East Coast Main Line 14 JULY 2009 48WH

[Chris Mole] HM Prison Wellingborough consultation on the new inter-city east coast franchise. I 12.30 pm encourage all those associated with the route to participate in that valuable exercise, which will shape the next Mr. Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con): It is a pleasure period in this important route’s history. I think that that to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Cummings. I answers the five points raised by my hon. Friend the thank Mr. Speaker for granting me this debate on an Member for City of York, as well as those raised by important and sensitive constituency issue. I am also the hon. Member for Angus (Mr. Weir) on the service delighted at the attendance of the Minister, and look specification. forward to her detailed responses. She is known to be a rising star in the Government and is always willing to listen to a reasoned argument. The debate will not be party political, but I hope it will be constructive and deal with an extremely difficult situation. In April, Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons published a report on Her Majesty’s prison Wellingborough. The report was damning and criticised many areas of the prison, including its cleanliness, governance and resettlement programme. After the publication of the report, whose findings followed an inspection in August 2008, the Ministry of Justice decided to put the prison out to market testing and has opened it up to bids from the public, private and third sectors. Wellingborough prison had several problem areas, which were highlighted in the report, but I hope to show the significant improvements that the current team has made. I want to make it clear that I am not against the Secretary of State’s decision to put the prison out to market testing. He is one of the very best members of the Government, and has kept me personally informed throughout the process. In fact, I received a telephone call at 6.30 one morning; it was the No. 10 Downing street hotline and I was told, “I have Mr. Straw on the line for you.” “At that time in the morning?” I thought. “Downing street? Jack Straw?” Had there been a coup overnight? Had he become Prime Minister and was I about to be offered a job? Alas, the telephone call was about HMP Wellingborough. Having received the report, the Secretary of State had to act; there was no way it could be ignored. He was right to put the prison out to market testing. However, I believe that the prison’s current governance system could be the best equipped to improve standards there further. I shall do whatever I can to support the governor and prison officers in putting together the best possible bid. In the end, I want the bid that is best for the taxpayer and the inmates to win the contract to run the prison. I believe that a locally-based business plan drawn up by the management and prison officers could be not only the best, but the most radical bid. HM prison Wellingborough is a medium-sized category C training prison that was opened in the 1960s. Wellingborough has the capacity to hold 646 male inmates in nine residential wings. At the time of the inspection there were 635 inmates and 380 staff. When the prison opened, it was a borstal or young offenders institution, but it has since become a jail for adult male sentenced prisoners who are serving 18 months or longer. Much of Wellingborough’s catchment area includes the London courts. At any one time about 40 per cent. of the prison population is from minority ethnic groups. The local Wellingborough population has a minority ethnic group of 11 per cent., but many of the inmates come from south of Wellingborough. Despite the large amount of land surrounding HMP Wellingborough, the prison has not expanded as it could have to house the growing population. There is a 49WH HM Prison Wellingborough14 JULY 2009 HM Prison Wellingborough 50WH major problem with overcrowding in the prison—a That is clearly absolutely unacceptable. Civil servants situation that is, of course, common across the country. are there to provide information on a factual basis, not Yesterday, the prison population was 83,776, which is to provide only information that supports the Government’s only 34 lower than the highest head count ever. case. In a democracy it is vital that opposition parties The report on Wellingborough by Her Majesty’s chief should be given the fullest possible data so that they can inspector of prisons listed a number of areas that were create well argued critiques of Government policy. The poor in performance and needed improving. Several of e-mail implies that if I had been supporting Government those weaknesses were causes for real concern. They policy those concerned would have been happy to supply included failure to provide the basics of training and the information, but because I might have been arguing resettlement of prisoners. The report stated: against Government policy it was withheld. It was not “We found 200 prisoners, around 30 per cent. of the population, as if I was asking for national security details. locked in their cells during the core of the day.” However, I believe that highlighting some things as The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria weaknesses would aggrieve the law-abiding people of Eagle): I am not familiar with the e-mail that the hon. our society. The report recommended that all prisoners Gentleman cites, but I would be happy to take it away at should be given a shower and a free telephone call on the end of the debate and make inquiries. As a Minister, their first night in the prison. Many people will find it I would expect my civil servants to provide factual hard to believe that a prison is failing because only a publicly available information to Members of Parliament percentage of inmates can have a shower on their first who request it. night. Many people will also be aggrieved to learn that one way in which the prison was failing was in not providing prisoners with their own kettle. It is important Mr. Bone: I am grateful. I did not want to get the civil to remember that it is a prison, not a holiday camp. servant into trouble, but I shall give the e-mail to the Minister. I merely wanted to know what improvements Of the more serious weaknesses highlighted in the Wellingborough prison had made since the report was report, drug abuse and the availability of drugs were a compiled. I know that those details are available, but concern. There was significant evidence of bullying I simply could not get hold of them. The information I resulting from drug-related debt. The inspection report am using today was either obtained as a result of stated that research by my staff or provided by the Prison Officers “42 per cent. of prisoners, against a 30 per cent. comparator, Association. thought that it was easy or very easy to get illegal drugs within the establishment.” I seek clarification on the criteria that the Government It went on to say that use to propose prisons for market testing. In a written answer, the Minister stated: “48 per cent. of prisoners compared with 27 per cent. in comparator prisons said that they had felt unsafe in the prison and 33 per “Public sector prisons were short listed for market test if cent. compared with the 21 per cent. comparator said they had identified as either poorly performing or high cost. Final selection… been threatened or intimidated by another prisoner or group of was made on the basis of a number of operational criteria and prisoners.” took account of wider evidence, such as HM Inspectorate of Prisons reports.”—[Official Report, 16 June 2009; Vol. 494, However, it is important to state that the report’s findings c. 265W.] were gathered at the beginning of August last year—nearly a year ago. Since then, a huge amount of work by the HMP Wellingborough is cost-effective. According to governor and prison officers has resulted in major the Prison Offices Association, it is the 12th most improvements. cost-effective of 37 category C training prisons. In 2007-08, the average cost for a category C training Another concern from the report was that living prison was £23,471 per place per year. In the same conditions on the residential units on A to E wings were period, the cost of Wellingborough was £21,311 per unsatisfactory and many areas of the prison were dirty place per year. That is a saving of £2,160 per prisoner and litter-strewn. There was also a problem with vermin. and 9.2 per cent. less than the national average. However, I understand that the cleanliness issues have now been resolved. Wellingborough is a training prison I believe that the current local management team and and it should prepare inmates for life outside following prison officers at HMP Wellingborough should remain their release. The report found that there were in place after the market testing exercise because of the “insufficient activities for the 635 inmates and that these activities prison’s ability to make significant improvements at a had not been planned or directed with a view to improving time when funding for prisons is low. On the 2008-09 prisoners’ skills and employability.” third-quarter weighted score card, Wellingborough was For a training prison that was a definite concern that the fourth most improved state prison in the country. needed to be tackled immediately. Given the current improvements, if the prison was inspected now it would not be considered for market I had hoped at this point to be able to give a list of testing. improvements, as provided by either the governor’s office at Wellingborough prison, the Ministry of Justice In the improvement areas of reducing offending, or the Minister’s office, but unfortunately, despite several decency, diversity, equality and security, Wellingborough requests, the information has been refused. I received an met half the targets. On organisational effectiveness e-mail from a civil servant that stated: and maintaining order and control, it achieved 80 per cent. of the targets. Those currently involved in governance “Thank you for your e-mail. Unfortunately I don’t think we are in a position to help you. As I am sure you understand, as at the prison have worked hard to improve standards Civil Servants it would be inappropriate to provide you with for the inmates and for the taxpayer. It is clear that this material that you would then use to argue against Government is not a high-cost prison, and given the recent improvements policy.” it is not poorly performing. 51WH HM Prison Wellingborough14 JULY 2009 HM Prison Wellingborough 52WH

[Mr. Bone] released under the Freedom of Information Act show that nearly twice as many prisoner complaints are upheld It is important to consider what effect the proposed in private prisons than are upheld in state-run institutions. private sector takeover has had on the prison staff. The I pose a number of questions to the Minister; I publication of the report and the subsequent decision have given her prior notice of them. First, what criteria to put the prison out to market tender has of course were used to determine specifically whether HMP had an effect on staff morale. Through my “Listening Wellingborough should be market tested? Secondly, if a to Wellingborough and Rushden” campaign, I have met prison rated poorly performing improves in every area, with the prison governor and his officers. The prison is it not possible for it to have another inspection before officers at Wellingborough do a hard job in difficult the deadline for bids closes? Thirdly, when does the bid circumstances, and it has not been made easier by the for taking over the contract to run Wellingborough overcrowding problem. prison close? What is the date? I went to listen to the concerns of prison officers over Fourthly, what information do the private and public the pay dispute, on the picket line outside Wellingborough sectors have to provide for a bid to be accepted, and is prison. I found the officers to be genuine and hard-working, that information the same for both sectors? Fifthly, if but they loathed being outside the prison rather than the local management team wins the bid, how will it inside looking after the inmates. At the time, they had a operate? Will it be like a management buy-out? Will the real grievance. By law, they were not allowed to go on prison be run independently or be reabsorbed into the strike and their pay on return was set by an independent National Offender Management Service? Sixthly, what tribunal. The Government backtracked on that independent criteria will be used in determining what bid should be review and did not fully implement it. They were wrong, successful? How much weighting will be given to the and I told them so. On 25 March 2008, in a debate in cost per prisoner? How much weighting will be given to Westminster Hall, I said: education and retraining, and how much to security? “As there is a prison in my constituency, the final point that I should make is that when the prison officers went on strike, I went Seventhly, who will determine the bid? Will it be an to talk to them on the picket line. They are a terrific bunch of men independent body or the Secretary of State? Eighthly, and women, who dedicate their lives to public service. To be on a will the bids be published in full, so that taxpayers can picket line was unnatural for them—they did not want to be there. see what was on offer? Ninthly, on exactly what date will They could not wait to get back to the prison, but they had been the bid be awarded? Finally, if two bids are deemed to driven into a situation in which they felt they had no alternative. be roughly equal, will preference be given to the private The Government were wholly wrong to break an agreement”.— sector or the public? [Official Report, 25 March 2008; Vol. 474, c. 34WH.] Recently, I had a meeting with the prison governor to I hope I have demonstrated that Wellingborough discuss the improvements that have been made at the prison has improved significantly since its inspection prison and to listen to his plans to make a bid in last year. I want that improvement to continue, whether the market testing exercise. I also met a local prison it be in the public or the private sector. officer and a representative from the national union. I note that local prison officers care so much about Wellingborough prison that they offered their assistance, 12.49 pm supporting the market testing bid despite the national The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Maria union’s opposition. The Prison Officers Association Eagle): I congratulate the hon. Member for Wellingborough fully supports Wellingborough’s bid and will assist the (Mr. Bone) on securing this debate and welcome the governor in that application. opportunity to discuss not only HMP Wellingborough, The Prison Officers Association has many concerns but prison competition policy more generally. about privately-run prisons, which it says can be cheaper The Government have a duty to the public to provide than state prisons only because they have cheaper staff efficient and effective prison services—I do not think costs and lower staff levels, leading to a greater number that the hon. Gentleman took issue with that—and the of assaults on staff. I, too, have concerns about privately-run system must both punish and reform offenders, while prisons. From recently published information, it would protecting the public. Investing in prison and probation seem that private prisons are on average not as well run services has been a key priority for the Government: as those owned by the state. As a Thatcherite Conservative, prison places have increased by about 25,000—to 85,000— I believe in the private sector and that in competitive and spending has risen by a similar proportion, while areas private solutions are normally best, but we are the probation case load has risen by 52 per cent. and talking about a public service for which there is no spending by 70 per cent. in real terms. We are the first marketplace and no real competition. Government since the second world war to oversee a Data recently obtained under the Freedom of sustained reduction in crime: crime is down 39 per cent. Information Act 2000 by More 4 News has shown that since 1997, the chances of being a victim are the lowest private prisons in Britain are performing worse than for a generation and adult reoffending fell by 23 per those run by the state. Four of the 10 private prisons cent. between 2000 and 2006. Those statistics are in no assessed under the prison performance assessment tool small part a tribute to the entire criminal justice system scored the second lowest rating of 2, which is classed as and, in particular, to the work done by staff in the requiring development. Those low ratings brought the prison system. I therefore pay tribute to staff at average performance of private prisons below that of Wellingborough prison and across the system for the state-run prisons. In the third quarter last year, the often difficult and sometimes dangerous work that they average overall score for private prisons was 2.6 out of a do. They often deal, on a daily basis, with difficulties rating total of 4. In state-run prisons during the same that many of us would find difficult to handle on a period, the average was 2.85. Moreover, separate figures one-off basis. 53WH HM Prison Wellingborough14 JULY 2009 HM Prison Wellingborough 54WH

Our approach to building on our achievements was Further evidence was available that improvements are outlined in a statement made to the House on 27 April necessary at Wellingborough. The hon. Gentleman himself by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for referred to the recent report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate Justice and in the accompanying document. An element of prisons. In August 2008, the chief inspector described of the policy is to increase the use of competition in Wellingborough as one of the weakest prisons recently prisons and probation. We are using competition to inspected. The report states that nearly half the prisoners challenge existing service providers—in the public and surveyed feel unsafe, owing to the high level of bullying, private sectors—to improve performance, to encourage and that Wellingborough fails to provide the basics of new entrants into the prison and probation markets, if training and resettlement, which should be at the core that can increase efficiency and innovation, and to of its work. The hon. Gentleman very fairly set out provide better outcomes for communities and the taxpayer. some of those conclusions. Initially, we sought to deliver the efficiency improvements The final selection from the shortlist—whether based through the work force modernisation reform package, on high costs relative to similar prisons, poor performance which was based on a three-year pay deal for staff in or a combination of the two—was made on the basis of public prisons—it was worth more than 10 per cent. in a number of operational criteria. Those included the cash terms over the period—linked to necessary but future direction of our capacity programme, potential limited reforms. Despite the fact that initial negotiations market interest in the establishments and the location appeared successful, the Prison Officers Association and condition of the prison. On that basis, Wellingborough and the Prison Governors Association turned down and Birmingham prisons were selected as the leading that negotiated deal. We made it clear to all the trade candidates to be market-tested this year. I want to make unions with which we negotiated that the rejection of it clear that we view competition not as a punishment work force reform would lead to accelerated market tool, but as a way to encourage improvement. From testing, and through that programme, we are now seeking what the hon. Gentleman said, it is clear that the poor to deliver some of the required efficiencies. inspection report and ongoing low rating have provided A 2005 Department of Trade and Industry report on a spur to improvement at Wellingborough prison. That market-based approaches found that introducing is good. The public sector provider could mount a bid. competition among suppliers can lead to lower costs As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made and better quality services. I am not about to argue that clear, we encourage and welcome strong public sector one sector or another, whether the public or private, as bids in these competitions, and I hope that Wellingborough in this case, always does better than the other—that prison can make a bid that offers the greatest value for would be an ideological approach that I do not take. money. If it does, it will be awarded the contract. However, we need continuous improvement. Greater I shall answer some of the hon. Gentleman’s specific competition in the market for prison services will ensure questions. I hope that I have already answered his an impetus to improvement, and we shall select the question about what specific criteria were used to determine organisations best able to deliver our services efficiently, whether HMP Wellingborough should be market-tested. whatever sector they are from. That is part of what the He also asked whether, if a prison rated as poorly competition policy is about. performing improves in every area, it could be inspected The hon. Gentleman sought some background on again before the competition policy is applied. We have how the decision to market-test at Wellingborough was announced a market test at Wellingborough and reached. All public sector prisons were considered on Birmingham, and to be true to our word, we need to go the grounds of performance and cost. A shortlist of through with them to show that we are serious about candidates was produced containing all prisons either the competition policy, which we are. I am encouraged seen as high cost, relative to similar prisons, or where that, as he said, improvements are being made at performance was rated at level 2 or lower for two or Wellingborough and that a great effort is being made. more consecutive quarters according to our published That will improve the public sector provider’s chance of performance ratings. He made some fair comments winning the competition—if it makes the best bid, it about Wellingborough prison’s performance difficulties will win the competition. over the past few years and highlighted some findings in The hon. Gentleman asked when the bidding process the most recently published report by Her Majesty’s for taking over the contract to run the prison will close. inspectorate of prisons. I cannot give him a precise date, but it will be launched The hon. Gentleman is quite right that a level 2 later this year, and I expect it to take about eight establishment is defined as “requiring development”. In months to complete the process and announce a winner. general, the National Offender Managements Service He also asked what information the private and public views such an establishment as one that is basically sectors have to provide to have a bid accepted and stable, secure and providing a limited but decent regime, whether the information is the same for bidders from but that is experiencing significant problems in meeting both sectors. All bidders will be required to submit targets and/or major operational problems. In quarter 4 information on the same areas, and the information of 2008-09, there were 18 prisons at level 4, 98 at level 3, requirements will be set out in the information-to-tender 17 at level 2 and none at level 1. In addition, 48 prisons document, which will be published after the launch of were identified as being relatively high cost, with potential the competition. It will be clear at that stage precisely savings of £500,000 or more available over the spending what is being asked and what kind of information will review period. Wellingborough prison was assessed as be sought. There will be a level playing field in that providing less than that in potential savings. sense. HMP Wellingborough has, however, been assessed as The hon. Gentleman asked how, if the local management a level 2 establishment for seven consecutive quarters team wins the bid, it will operate. Will it be run since quarter 2 of 2007-08—more than 21 months. independently or go back to being run as part of 55WH HM Prison Wellingborough 14 JULY 2009 56WH

[Maria Eagle] Adults with Learning Difficulties NOMS? If a public service provider wins the competition, the ongoing relationship with NOMS and the relevant 1pm director of offender management will be managed through Mr. Andrew Smith (Oxford, East) (Lab): I want to a service level agreement, which is very similar to the raise some vital funding issues that could have a profound way in which— impact on the care and support of nearly 1 million of our fellow citizens who are learning disabled or who John Cummings (in the Chair): Order. We now move have significant learning difficulties. Many of them are to the next debate. in a vulnerable position. We have a particular duty to speak up for such people because, in many cases, they are not in a position to do so for themselves. Although the funding pressures were drawn to my attention by Oxfordshire county council, which provided me with an excellent briefing, their impact will be felt throughout England, especially in those areas in which the council is on the floor of the revenue support grant settlement. The difficulties to which I refer arise from the transfer, from 2011-12 onwards, of social care funding for adults with learning disabilities from the NHS to councils, which have a responsibility for social services. Such difficulties are compounded by the local government revenue support system and by the rising need for support for learning disabled people. The transfer itself, the initial stages of which were due to complete last month, is right in principle; learning disability is not an illness. The individuals concerned require varying degrees of domiciliary, community and accommodation support, and it is right that such support is provided through the social care system. The transfer of responsibility covers the wide range of social care services, such as domiciliary and personal support, training and counselling services, day centres and day services, short-break centres, supported accommodation and residential care. I understand that primary care trusts will continue to fund and commission NHS specialist staff, such as community nurses, psychiatrists and speech and language therapists, as well as assessment and treatment services. There is a problem with the financial aspects of the transfer. For example, what level of provision will be made at the point of transfer, and how will it increase in future years? The initial amount to be transferred is being agreed between each local authority and the local PCT, and is largely based on historic expenditure. I understand that that has been difficult to work out, and that it varies across the country. Moreover, the transfer is taking place from an NHS budget that has increased more rapidly than local authority financing and is likely to continue to increase at a faster rate than that of local authorities. Even if the initial transfer is at a fair and adequate level—it is not hard to see how that might be the subject of dispute—the danger is that the budget could be squeezed in future years because the combination of Government and council tax payer funding cannot keep pace with the required growth in costs. That problem is particularly severe for councils such as Oxfordshire which are on the floor of the revenue support grant. Figures given to me by Oxfordshire show the scale of the problem. Initial estimates suggest that some £21.5 million or more will transfer initially from the PCT to the council. However, if we use a GDP deflator of 2.75 per cent. to predict inflationary costs in future years, that cost will rise to £23 million in 2012-13 and £24.7 million in 2013-14. In practice, the cost pressures are likely to rise significantly faster than that because 57WH Adults with Learning Difficulties14 JULY 2009 Adults with Learning Difficulties 58WH more learning disabled children are surviving at birth Secondly, I hope that my hon. Friend can assure us and, happily, more of those who do are living into that there will be close consultation between organisations adulthood. Now, if the cost has to be met from within representing learning disabled people, such as Mencap, general revenue support and council tax funding, the other interested parties, such as the Local Government amount available to pay for it in Oxfordshire will only Association, and councils, such as my own in Oxfordshire, go up by 1 per cent. a year because Oxfordshire, like a which are potentially so adversely affected. I hope overall number of other authorities, is on the grant floor. that he can assure us that some means by which to Therefore, even if the transfer is adequate in year one, in protect funding for services for learning disabled adults year two, in Oxfordshire’s case, there will be a shortfall will be found. of £1.3 million, and one of £2.8 million in year three. The Government will today set out important options The gap will continue to widen by £1.8 million a year. for the future of social care, and it is crucial that the The implications of that can be translated into a needs of learning disabled people are not only remembered council tax pressure, which Oxfordshire estimates would but at the forefront of our thinking. The challenge of amount to 2.6 per cent. over and above the council tax future funding must be turned into an opportunity the authority would otherwise plan, or £33 a year on a properly to fund and support the quality of life of band D council tax payer, and that would go on rising learning disabled people. I look forward to the Minister by at least £13 a year—probably significantly more— telling us the Government’s plans to do just that. because of demographic pressures, to which I referred earlier. 1.10 pm I understand that the Department of Health has done some work and come up with similar conclusions. The Minister of State, Department of Health (Phil It talks of the risk of substantial gaps in funding, big Hope): I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member variations across the country and particular problems for Oxford, East (Mr. Smith) on securing this debate. facing social services authorities that are on the revenue He rightly focused his remarks on the longer-term support grant floor. There is a real danger here of us consequences of the transfer of responsibility for the drifting to disaster in the funding of services for learning commissioning and funding of social care services from disabled adults. The consequence could be a mix of cuts PCTs to local authorities. However, if he will forgive in services, which would be totally wrong and unacceptable me, I shall first place that in the wider context of the given that such services are already hardly adequate in Government’s strategy to make policy to meet the needs many areas; cuts in other services that will already be of all individuals, which is the general direction of under pressure, not least in Oxfordshire by the council’s travel. decision to cut staff by 10 per cent.; and significant The focus of policy making in the past couple of increases in council tax. The only fair way to resolve the years has been on the critical issue of putting people situation is to protect the funding of services for learning with learning disabilities and the people who care for disabled adults by accompanying the transfer—from and support them in the driving seat, which my right NHS to local councils—with a permanent specific grant, hon. Friend rightly supports. The focus is on giving ideally based on need and not simply the initial transfer them more control over the care and treatment that they value, and increasing that each year, taking into account receive. That philosophy was absolutely integral to “Valuing increasing need. People Now”, which was our three-year, cross-Government I know that idea runs counter to the generally sensible strategy published in January, and more recently to vogue for removing ring fences and specific grants to “Valuing Employment Now”, which is all about creating local councils and putting the money into general revenue real jobs for people with learning disabilities. support grants, so that councils can make decisions I am pleased to be able to tell my right hon. Friend based on local priorities. However, in this case, it is not that people with learning disabilities now have more only justified but necessary if we are to ensure that control. Two thousand or so now receive direct payments funding for support for learning disabled adults is to be that they can use to pay for the care or services that they provided at an adequate level. want. People with learning disabilities have more freedom. One other option would be to ensure that the revenue Many more live in homes of their own and have the support grant settlement took full account of the needs opportunities to enjoy a richer and more varied social of adults with learning disabilities, but that would not life, and—I am sure that this is true in his constituency— be easy to resolve. If the Government were to go down many have better community-based support. For example, that route, there would have to be some particular the number living on NHS campuses has dropped provision for councils that are on the revenue support from about 3,000 in 2006 to 1,000 today. Overall spend grant floor and subject to the squeeze that I described on adults with learning disabilities increased from earlier. £1.7 billion in 1997-98 to nearly £3.5 billion in 2007-08, I hope that, in his reply, my hon. Friend the Minister which is a £1.8 billion increase, equivalent to a 96 per can make the following assurances. The first is that the cent. real-terms increase between 1997 and 2008. Government are on top of the issue and looking with I hope that my right hon. Friend agrees that a great urgency at how it can be resolved. I know that, when deal has been achieved. We have laid down the blueprint policy issues involve significant sums of money, more for a fairer deal for people with learning disabilities than one Department and have inherent complexity, it across all public services. often takes longer to sort them out. This challenge needs to be gripped and sorted, and I hope that my hon. Mr. Andrew Smith: I certainly endorse empowerment, Friend will assure us that that is happening and that he independent living and the support to which people will go from this debate and talk to his Secretary of with learning disabilities must be entitled. The Minister State and senior officials to ensure that it is. referred to the 96 per cent. increase in spending. I am 59WH Adults with Learning Difficulties14 JULY 2009 Adults with Learning Difficulties 60WH

[Mr. Andrew Smith] about engaging people with learning disabilities and their carers and families in the process. By involving the not sure whether it is a coincidence, but between 1995-96 boards, we are ensuring that people with learning disabilities and 2003-04, local authority spending on services for and their families are fully involved in the decision-making people with learning disabilities increased by 96 per process. cent. That compares with a 72 per cent. increase in total Where are we now? We asked local authorities and spend on personal social services. Although the increase PCTs to reach a final agreement on the amounts to be is welcome, does the discrepancy not show that meeting transferred for 2009-10 by 31 March 2009 and asked future needs will be likely to involve a proportionately them to confirm to the Department of Health that the greater demand from people with learning disabilities transfer had been made locally by 30 June, which was a on social services budgets? few days ago. More than 130 returns were made by 31 March and 50 per cent. of areas reported that they Phil Hope: I understand my right hon. Friend’s point. had transferred funds by the 30 June deadline. The Indeed, there has been a commitment by many local latest estimates show that more than £1 billion has been authorities to support adults in the social care system. agreed for transfer. However, we are still in the process That is to be welcomed and it is a sign of local authorities of analysing the results as they come in. responding to the needs of their communities. The social care system has always involved a mixture of Agreement has been reached in Oxfordshire, as my central and local government support for adults of all right hon. Friend probably already knows, and it is ages, including people who have retired. We could do recognised as an area of good practice, with an established more—despite the good things that have happened so pooled budget and a strong commitment to joint working far—to transform those health and social care services. from Oxfordshire county council and Oxfordshire PCT. I shall explain what we are doing on transferring I am pleased to say that there are many examples of responsibility for commissioning and funding care for local authorities and the NHS successfully working people with learning disabilities from the NHS to social their way through a multiplicity—that is how he put service authorities, and the longer-term consequences it—of difficult issues to agree a transfer sum in their of doing so. We want to promote better commissioning report on the commissioning transfer process. and services, both in PCTs and local authorities. I am very conscious that there is a patchiness across the Mr. Andrew Smith: Did I hear the Minister correctly? country in that provision, which I believe reflects the If 50 per cent. had confirmed by the end of June, 50 per lack of consistency in the commissioning standards of cent. had not. Does he share my concern about that? PCTs and local authorities. When will the figure become 100 per cent? My right hon. Friend will be aware that the consultation document, “Valuing People Now: From progress to Phil Hope: My right hon. Friend swiftly picked up on transformation”, proposed the transfer of learning disability the figures that I gave. He is right: the figures mean that social care commissioning and funding from PCTs to half are yet to be completed. We have evidence from the local government from April this year. We received returns that we have received of under-reporting in more than 2,000 responses to the consultation on that many areas, and there is a wide variation in the amounts principle, which he said he supports, involving more that have been declared for transfer. He and I share that than 10,000 people. Seventy-six per cent. agreed with concern. It is critical that we have accurate returns on the specific proposal to transfer commissioning the total spend on social care by NHS bodies. For those responsibility. That change will allow the NHS to focus returns whose figures look unusual or cause concerns, on its primary health care responsibility for people with we are considering how the Department, in collaboration learning disabilities and, at the same time, give local with regional colleagues, can support and validate transfer authorities a lead role in delivering high-quality, amounts. We are in the process of ensuring that we community-based care services. achieve outcomes across the country, but I am delighted Of course, local authorities already have a role in that his local authority and PCT have reached an agreed delivering the transformation of social care and the figure. goals set out in “Valuing People Now”. That role will be strengthened when funding and commissioning are fully What will happen from 2011 onwards? The intention aligned. We are confident that that will result in better is that allocations of social care resources will be made services for people with learning disability and services directly from the Department of Health to local authorities. that are built around the needs of individuals. That is how the future system will work; it will no longer go through the PCTs. We will consider the best In August last year, we issued guidance to all PCT way to achieve the allocation beyond 2011 after PCTs chief executives and directors of adult social care setting and local authorities have reported the outcomes of out that policy intention. The guidance set out the key their local agreements and the results have been analysed areas for transfer and those that will remain in the at a national level in discussion with other Departments, NHS. The transfer does not include resources for generalist including, as my right hon. Friend hinted, the Department or specialist health care, for forensic and offender services, for Communities and Local Government and the Treasury. or for continuing care. He asked that I come away from this debate with that For 2009-10 and 2010-11, the transfer of specialist purpose in mind; he can be assured that his request is social care funding for people with learning disabilities already in train. We are aware of the issue of different will be made locally from PCTs to local authorities. All authorities being at different stages. It is a cross-Government agreements should have been reached with the full concern that I, as the Minister with responsibility for involvement of learning disability partnership boards. I care services, must discuss with my colleagues in other emphasise that because my right hon. Friend spoke Departments, not least the Treasury. 61WH Adults with Learning Difficulties14 JULY 2009 Adults with Learning Difficulties 62WH

Mr. Smith: Can my hon. Friend give me an assurance The transfers are not straightforward, as my right that the position of authorities such as Oxfordshire that hon. Friend knows; he discussed how complex they can are on the revenue support grant settlement floor and be. There must be sufficient resources to cover the job of therefore subject to that particular situation will be commissioning, as well as other expenditure. Even if addressed specifically? the transfer continues, we wish commissioning to be a joint process between PCTs and local authorities. There Phil Hope: My right hon. Friend is trying to lead me will be issues involving the Transfer of Undertakings into territory in which he, as a former Secretary of (Protection of Employment) Regulations 1981 and so State, probably knows that I am unable to give on that will need to be taken into account. The issues commitments. I cannot say exactly what the outcome of are not straightforward, but his point about “the earlier the negotiations on 2011 and beyond will be. However, the better” is well made, and I will certainly draw it to he has made a powerful point as a constituency MP on the attention of those concerned. behalf of his county, pointing out in his earlier remarks It is worth reminding my right hon. Friend that the and his question to me the consequences and possible allocations to local authorities represent a range of impact of the system of floors and ceilings. I will ensure factors in the decision about what should be allocated. that his questions and comments are brought to the Issues such as inflation, different demographics, relative attention of those making such decisions. We are certainly need, deprivation, ethnicity and so on were all included mindful of his and others’ concerns with regard to that in the discussions about working through formulas. We question. certainly want to ensure that local commissioning, through Not only will we have internal discussions about such whatever allocations are made, take such factors into questions, but we will consult on the determination of account as well. the allocations before we allocate directly to local authorities. I have emphasised the importance of joint working We will of course consult with local authorities, as well between the NHS, local PCTs and local authorities, as NHS bodies, the Association of Directors of Adult whatever the transfer of resources is. We want to ensure Social Services, the Local Government Association and that not only social care but health care improve. My the NHS Confederation. We will consult with others right hon. Friend will know that we recently introduced through the partnership boards, as I said, so that a new directed enhanced service for annual health checks organisations such as Mencap that are represented on for people with learning disabilities. I stress that because disability boards throughout the country will have their it is important that doctors keep a close eye on the opportunity to contribute on questions such as those health of people with learning disabilities in order to asked by my right hon. Friend. pick up on any early warning signs and to be able to Whatever happens, we know that PCTs and local give them the necessary advice and referrals if they need authorities will need to work together to commission help. We must ensure jointly that people with learning services. Although the transfer will move across local disabilities receive personalised plans to support both authorities, there is an important role for greater integration their health and their care needs. of health and social care services through joint My right hon. Friend will know that the NHS operating commissioning, joint strategic needs analysis and joint framework makes it clear that primary care trusts must working, so that individuals’ needs are always treated in secure health services that make reasonable adjustments the round and they are provided with seamless services, for people with learning disabilities. We are working a whether care services, health services or both. The outcome lot with strategic health authorities on those issues as must be in the best interests of those with learning well. There is a lot going on. The system and the disabilities. I cannot give my right hon. Friend the transfer are complex, but they need to be done at a pace categorical assurance that he seeks in advance of those that suits the issues that he raised about what will debates, but I can assure him that the consultation will happen beyond 2011. We must ensure that we root our allow those questions to be fully articulated so that conclusions properly in factual analysis. Ministers in different Departments, not least the Treasury, will hear individuals’ concerns. In conclusion, the transfer process is about improving services for adults with learning disabilities. It is the Mr. Smith: I appreciate those commitments on right thing to do, and we must take the time to get it consultation. Can my hon. Friend give any indication of right, not just for this year and the next but, as my right the time scale in which the ultimate method for allocation hon. Friend put it, so that future negotiations can for 2011-12 will be settled? Although 2011 seems a long ensure that needs continue to be met. I do not apologise way off in terms of planning local authority and central for saying that we have put a huge amount of extra Government budgets, it is not. The firmer and earlier an resource into the system, as have some local authorities. indication is given, the better people will be able to plan. At one point, there was an £8 billion growth in spend. That demonstrates this Government’s commitment to Phil Hope: I am not sure that I can give my right hon. the people in most need. Friend a time scale today, as we are in 2009, although Working in partnership, local and central Government, I take his point that the earlier that discussions can be health and social care services and the third sector and had and concluded, the better, in order to enable planning. other local providers must consider the needs of people I emphasise that we must understand the patterns fully with learning disabilities and how we can put resources from this year’s returns on the transfers being made in in place to meet those needs and ensure quality of care order to plan and model what the future should be like. and the principles of choice and control, in order to Once the returns are in and we have analysed them, we give people independence in living and to move away will be in a better position to do that modelling and from old-fashioned ways of caring for people with arrive at a timetable, which is an even bigger job of learning disabilities into new ways of working. The work to be done. personalisation of our services is critical. My right hon. 63WH Adults with Learning Difficulties 14 JULY 2009 64WH

[Phil Hope] Gypsies and Travellers Friend is right to raise the issue of funding for the future. I hope that he will work with me as we publish 1.30 pm our care and support Green Paper today to take Steve Webb (Northavon) (LD): I begin with a quote: forward the bigger agenda of transforming our social “members of the gypsy and traveller communities should have care system. the same rights and responsibilities as every other citizen.” That is a statement of Government policy, as set out by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister in circular 01/2006. I endorse that statement wholeheartedly. I recognise the important and diverse needs across our communities from Gypsies and Travellers to the settled population. I agree with the Government that both groups have the same rights and responsibilities. I initiated this debate because I wanted to alert the Minister to the way in which the implementation of that strategy is failing on the ground. It appears to be an entirely proper process. Unmet need should be identified systematically and sites for Gypsies and Travellers found proactively and strategically. However, there is a feeling among the people who have contacted me that people do not have equal rights and responsibilities, but that there are separate rules and outcomes for different groups. The Government’s goal of fostering community cohesion and undermining conflict is not being achieved because of that perception. I want to consider how the situation could be improved. I will begin with the example of green belt development on the edge of communities. Many villages in my constituency are surrounded by green belt. When the children of families in such villages grow up, there is often nowhere in their village for them to live. When a house becomes available, it is unaffordable for a young adult. Such people would dearly love to buy a piece of land on the edge of the village, build a house and live there, but they cannot because it is green belt. All too frequently, such land is sold to a Gypsy or Traveller family because the land is cheap. It is cheap because it is not possible to get planning permission to build on it, otherwise it would be expensive. In some cases, the Gypsy or Traveller family will move on to the land at 5 o’clock on a Friday night, just as the council is clocking off. By Monday morning, there are hard-standings, driveways and connections to mains services. When the council enforcement process grinds into action, a planning application for a residential pitch is submitted. Because there is a planning application, the council holds off on enforcement. The application grinds through the process of site visits and so on over many weeks and months and is eventually turned down. The applicant then appeals and the case goes to the Planning Inspectorate, which says that although the land is green belt, there are not enough proper Gypsy and Traveller sites in the authority, and it therefore gives permission. That happens time and again in my area. Many Gypsy and Traveller sites are immaculate. I can think of one not far from where I live that looks lovely and is well maintained. We are not always talking about some scruffy caravans down the road. Some sites are a credit to the area that they are in. However, the problem is the sense that such things would not be allowed for the settled community and that a different set of rules apply for Gypsies and Travellers.

Mr. Andy Slaughter (Ealing, Acton and Shepherd’s Bush) (Lab): Will the hon. Gentleman give way? 65WH Gypsies and Travellers14 JULY 2009 Gypsies and Travellers 66WH

Steve Webb: I will not, because I am short of time. “the land is not occupied by persons other than gypsies and travellers. The criteria for considering the provision of a Gypsy The Minister might say in his response that, if the and Traveller site is assessed against different criteria.” council had provided enough sites in the first place, such things would not happen. In 2006, my local authority, The officers recommended approval principally because South Gloucestershire council, was directed by the Secretary of an “urgent unmet need” for such sites. of State for Communities and Local Government to Despite the Government policy document on Gypsy produce a Gypsy and Traveller development plan document. and Traveller sites that states that everyone has the same The goal was for 53 residential pitches and 25 transit rights and responsibilities, residents of villages see Gypsies caravans, based on the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation and Travellers being treated differently in relation to assessment. We are halfway through the two-year green belt developments. Residents near Hall End have consultation, but that process is being forestalled and seen a piece of land that they could not put a bungalow undermined because sites that have been submitted as or a residential caravan on being recommended for potential sites are suddenly coming forward for planning approval by the council for five pitches because it was a permission. Gypsy and Traveller application. One can see why people The Minister’s office kindly contacted me before the become resentful—not because they object to Gypsies debate to ask what I wanted to raise, and I mentioned and Travellers having somewhere decent to live, but the application at Hall End in Rangeworthy. That site because they want one rule to apply to everybody. That has a complex history, but, in a nutshell, the council has is not happening. been taking enforcement action for six years. It started In particular, I wish to draw the Minister’s attention when someone moved a caravan on to the site and to the fact that the Hall End site was earmarked in the started operating a transport business. They created draft planning document, which in theory will not be track and hard-standing in a rural area. An appeal was finalised until 2010. It appears as though anyone who dismissed in 2004. Even the High Court ordered applies for a site that might be earmarked in that enforcement by July 2008. For five or six years, the document will get planning permission. Perversely, there council has said that this is not a good site for caravans is now such pressure to give permission that the sites are or buildings. not being prioritised through a systematic, rational and There have been planning applications for the site. In strategic system. Instead, pretty much anyone who applies 2004, there was an application for a bungalow. That was will get approval to fulfil the unmet need. rejected Such approval conflicts with the Government’s Gypsy “due to its location in the open countryside outside of defined and Traveller site strategy of May 2008, “Designing settlements” Gypsy and Traveller Sites: Good Practice Guide”, which and was deemed “unacceptable in principle”. Just a outlines 23 recommendations, one of which is that normal house was a no-go. In 2005, there was a change “poorly located sites, with no easy access to major roads or public of use application for the stationing of one residential transport services” caravan for the personal use of the applicants. That was should be avoided. That describes the Hall End site. refused and a subsequent appeal was turned down The document advises that there should be because the applicants were not Gypsies or Travellers. Members of the settled community are not allowed to “Easy access to local services, and to social contact with other live in caravans in such rural areas because it interferes residents”. with the rural landscape. There will not be any at this site. It says that Two years later, an application was submitted for five “locations that are inappropriate for ordinary residential dwellings” Gypsy caravan pitches with five hard-standings, five should be avoided. An application for a bungalow on day rooms and driveways. A pitch could include a the site was turned down. It even says that Travellers do permanent caravan, a mobile caravan, a day room, not like isolation or great distances to facilities. The driveways and so on, so five pitches could involve 15 or Hall End application therefore goes against not only 20 caravans and buildings. After six years of enforcement what the settled population wants, but the preferences action and the refusal of applications for a bungalow of Travellers. The applicant was not a Traveller, but the and a single caravan, the council recommended the application was made for a Traveller site because other acceptance of an application for five pitches. uses had been turned down. The document states: Interestingly, council policy H12 for Gypsy and Traveller “Sewerage for permanent sites should normally be through sites states that mains systems.” “preferably sites should be within a reasonable distance of local There is no mains sewerage on the Hall End site. services and facilities such as shops, doctors’ surgeries and primary schools, though more remote sites may be acceptable”. We can start to see how the Government’s guidelines, The site in question is not a reasonable distance from policies and values seem right when we read them but, any of those services and facilities. The council officer when it comes to an individual application, they get said that the statement that overridden because of the unmet-need figure. One resident has said that he thinks the whole development plan “more remote sites may be acceptable” document process has been undermined. The local ward offered a get-out clause, so that he could ignore all the councillor and my Liberal Democrat colleagues—a group desirable features of sites and approve the site. The site of people who are generally known for being sympathetic has shocking drainage. My understanding from the to the needs of Gypsies and Travellers and who are not papers is that the sewage would be drained into a ditch. know for being hostile—all opposed the decision to Although it is not a good place for a site, the council approve the application, because they felt that it was the recommended approval and suggested a condition that wrong site. However, on the committee, they were outvoted 67WH Gypsies and Travellers14 JULY 2009 Gypsies and Travellers 68WH

[Steve Webb] Traveller site.” There is talk of having 10 to 12 pitches, which could involve up to 50 caravans, outbuildings and by one by councillors from a completely different place all the rest of it in, again, an unsuitable place. The in the authority. Again, in terms of local accountability, residents do not feel confident that the unsuitability of local residents feel that they have been ignored. the site will have any bearing on the decision, because In the context of the DPD, the resident I mentioned they have seen what happened down the road with the told me in a letter that the decision to approve the Hall End site. application In addition, my colleague, Councillor Claire Young “has seriously damaged the Council’s reputation and members of from Westerleigh ward, has alerted me to a proposed the public now feel that the DPD exercise is purely a PR exercise transit site on an industrial estate. There are good and that all of the sites will now go through without consultation”. arguments for why there are problems with that site, yet What set out to be a consultative and strategic process is residents and business people do not feel that they will being undermined, and I do not think that the Government be listened to, because of the drive to hit the numerical ever intended that to happen. I think that they wanted a targets, which we question. Another example of how process, consultation, iteration, eventual approval and there seems to be one rule for one and one rule for for things then to move forward, but what is happening another can be found in relation to the existing site at is that the gun is being jumped almost daily. Bank road, Pilning in my constituency. Down the road, So what about the DPD process? That process is now an additional site has been earmarked for consultation. degenerating into what I would call planning anarchy—that As soon as it was included in the draft planning document, is the sort of situation that we are in. How great is the people with caravans moved on to the site, where they unmet need? The Gypsy and Traveller accommodation should not be. When we challenged the council, it said: assessment calculated that we needed an extra 73 pitches: “the uncertain planning position of the site…means that it is not 32 because of household growth, 18 based on unauthorised currently expedient for the planning enforcement team to pursue developments, nine from unauthorised encampments, formal enforcement action against the number of caravans and/or 12 as a result of additional identified need—basically, pitches on the site.” from waiting lists—and two from people moving from In other words, once something is in the draft document, houses on to sites. That gives a total of 73 pitches, people move on and the council says, “Well, technically, which, minus the 15 vacancies, leaves 58 pitches as the we should move them off, but the land might get permission target. However, that was two years ago. One of the or be earmarked in a years’ time, so we won’t do problems is that things have changed since then, and anything.” Residents are therefore saying, “Hang on a because private authorised sites are being given the minute. This is a consultation document, yet the council go-ahead all the time in our area, the council is working is acting as if these sites have been given permission towards a target of 58 that is now out of date. already and is not taking enforcement action.” The site The target of 58 included sites that were unauthorised on Bank road is on a floodplain, and permission would when the count was done, but because those sites are never be given to build a house out of bricks and now authorised, double counting is going on. The needs mortar there, so why is the site appropriate for Travellers? of families have been met by authorising the site, but Again, there is a sense that the rules are not being they have not been taken off the total because it was applied evenly. based on measuring unmet need and looking at The underlying problem is the DPD process and the unauthorised sites. target that the council has been given. The figures are Within the authority area, as those private sites have having unforeseen consequences, and I query them for become authorised, the illegal encampments have come two reasons. First is the reason that I have already down. In January 2008, there were 19 families on given: over the past two years, private sites have been unauthorised sites, with 46 caravans. In January 2009—a given the go-ahead, but they are not coming off the year later—there are only 11 families on unauthorised total that the authority is being asked to meet, so there sites, with 14 caravans. So there are half as many is double counting. The other reason is that the main families, with a third the number of caravans. That is a driver of the extra numbers is an assumption of 3 per sign that the unmet need is being met, yet the total cent. growth a year in Gypsy and Traveller numbers. target is still that from two years ago. In a sense, the My maths tells me that 3 per cent. compound interest authority is saying not that there is no unmet need, but for 24 years would double the Gypsy and Traveller that the figures are out of date and do not reflect what population. Will the Minister clarify whether everywhere has happened since then, as private sites have become in the country is being asked to assume a 3 per cent. authorised. I hope that the Minister is willing to consider growth rate in the Gypsy and Traveller population? whether the authority has been given the right target. Presumably, if that is the assumption, the Gypsy and Likewise, when the assessment was done in October Traveller population should double in 24 years. The 2007, the council had 33 private site pitches. There are settled population will clearly not double in 24 years, so now 50 families living on authorised private sites with why is that the assumption for the Gypsy and Traveller planning permission. So provision is being made, but population? Presumably, the figure would then double no account is being taken of that in the process. again in another 24 years. That number seems hard to I should like to mention a couple of other sites in understand or justify, yet it is driving what I call planning relation to which there are concerns that things are not anarchy across the authority. being done consistently. A new supersite on Tanhouse So where do we go from here? The DPD process is lane, which is north of Yate, has come forward as a good in principle—it is right to try to be proactive and result of the classic case of the owner of the land to identify future sites—but it is creating resentment applying for planning permission and, on being turned among the settled community; people feel that there is down, saying, “Right. I’ll put it forward for a Gypsy or one rule for one and one rule for another. Sites that are 69WH Gypsies and Travellers14 JULY 2009 Gypsies and Travellers 70WH not good are getting the go-ahead, which was surely alongside the effective use of enforcement powers and a never the intention, and the deliberative, consultative joined-up approach between the various organisations engagement process is being second-guessed on the with a role in Gypsy, Traveller and broader housing ground. issues is critical to addressing the issues that we are I appreciate that I have spoken for slightly too long, debating today. but I ask the Minister whether he is willing to reflect on There are incentives for everyone—Gypsies and Travellers, what I have said and whether he will meet me, council local authorities and the settled community—to increase leaders and officers from the area to go through exactly site provision. That will reduce unauthorised camping what is happening on the ground. There is, quite properly, and the tensions that that can cause with the settled a willingness to identify sites for the legitimate needs of community. It will reduce the need for, and cost of, Gypsy and Traveller families, and rightly so, but the enforcement action, which is estimated to cost local process is not working as it should. I was nervous about authorities £18 million a year, thus leading to savings even choosing the topic for debate, because it is so easy for local taxpayers. to get it wrong. I am concerned that, if people such as the Minister and I say nothing about these issues—I The hon. Gentleman referred to some of his concerns believe that he, too, values equality and fairness—when about the maths, as carried out by his local authority. there is legitimate concern among local residents, we The regional spatial strategy will take full account of will create a void into which something much more the Gypsy and Traveller accommodation assessment, unsavoury will come. We all have a responsibility to provide the strategic framework for pitch allocations ensure that that does not happen. and advise on the number of pitches needed in each local authority. That recommendation will take account of new permissions granted. Councils can certainly 1.47 pm take account of new permissions granted after the regional spatial strategy figures are agreed. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr. Shahid Malik): Members will appreciate that, given the Secretary of It is a pleasure to be engaging in this debate under your State’s quasi-judicial role in the planning process, I can stewardship, Mr. Cummings. I congratulate the hon. comment on neither the individual planning cases to Member for Northavon (Steve Webb)—I hope that I which the hon. Gentleman has referred, nor the current have pronounced his constituency correctly; we were position with regard to the regional spatial strategy in discussing how to say it earlier—on securing the debate. the south-west, in relation to which the Secretary of The location of sites for Gypsy and Traveller caravans State is considering responses to the proposed changes is important to the hon. Gentleman and his constituents, published last year. and I understand the concerns that he is articulating on I am aware that there is a perception that the planning their behalf. As he has said, it is vital that we discuss system is biased in favour of Gypsies and Travellers, these issues constructively, in the context of the fair, and that is certainly the perception of many people in decent and tolerant society in which we all wish to live. I the hon. Gentleman’s constituency. I would like to make completely accept his argument that it is important for it clear that the law applies equally in that regard to people who believe in fairness to engage in such discussions. Gypsies and Travellers and to those in settled communities. I think that he alluded to the fact that, if dealt with There is considerable evidence of a significant underlying inappropriately, such matters can become quite toxic. need for site provision in south Gloucestershire. That is Fairness is what the Department for Communities supported by several data sources, including independent and Local Government—my Department—and the research commissioned by South Gloucestershire district Government are all about, but fairness does not mean council as part of the west of England partnership that treating everybody equally; it means addressing the fed into the regional spatial strategy. I know that that different needs of different people. The need to provide was not the hon. Gentleman’s primary argument, which adequate site provision for Gypsies and Travellers is a was that some of the unmet need has, in fact, been challenging one for local authorities, but that is just one satisfied. Therefore, it is an issue of the local authority of the many challenges that authorities regularly deal and its maths. As I have pointed out, the local authority with, to provide balanced and fair services to all in their ought to be taking stock of those areas where permission locality. has been granted. The hon. Gentleman will have considered the needs The evidence shows that there is a clear and immediate of his Gypsy and Traveller constituents alongside his need for more authorised sites, so I am pleased by the constituents in the settled community. At the heart of progress being made by the district council in preparing the issues debated today is the shortage of authorised an allocations development plan document, which will sites, which forces many Gypsies and Travellers on to identify appropriate locations for sites. I am aware that unauthorised sites. The Government believe that everyone the consultation has just closed on some additional sites in the community should be given the opportunity to that the council had suggested, and no doubt there will have a decent place to live. In England, that opportunity be further consultation once it has decided which sites is not yet available to about one in five Gypsy and should be included. I very much hope that local residents Traveller families who have no authorised place to live. and Gypsy and Traveller groups will play a full part in We are committed to increasing the number of those consultation processes, as that is the best way to authorised, good-quality sites, just as we are to increasing ensure a fully informed policy. Policies cannot always the supply of quality conventional housing, focusing in please everyone all the time, but if we can be confident particular on the kind of local families who the hon. that everyone has had the chance at least to contribute Gentleman mentioned, such as the young who want to to the debate meaningfully, the council will be able to stay in the area and the elderly. Increased site provision, develop the plans fully, aware of all the facts. 71WH Gypsies and Travellers14 JULY 2009 Gypsies and Travellers 72WH

[Mr. Shahid Malik] is reflective of the population growth in that community. I cannot tell hon. Members how good that research is In the interim, there remains a significant need for because I have not seen it—I passed a message back to accommodation for Gypsies and Travellers in the district. my officials and they sent one back to me, and Members I do not accept the view that applications for planning know how it works. I am more than happy to look at the permission should not be considered until the development figures as well, because it is important that people have plan document has been completed. Even with the best confidence in them. Where there is a lack of confidence, endeavours of all concerned, that might take some time. that needs to be dealt with—it cannot be left to one side In the meantime, proposals for Gypsy and Traveller because it is convenient. sites should be considered by the local authority against existing development plan policies that are relevant. The framework put in place by the Government does That is exactly what would happen with any other type not require local authorities to provide the sites, but of development in similar circumstances. simply to identify suitable locations. As with the settled population, many Gypsies and Travellers prefer their Steve Webb: When officers look at those applications, own sites. Some of them, however, will not have the they list the emerging development plan document as a necessary resources, so access to social rented sites will relevant factor, so the fact that it is even being consulted be necessary. That information should be incorporated on is given weight. Therefore, the entire process is being within the authority’s Gypsy and Traveller accommodation second-guessed. We will get to the end of the consultation assessment. The Government provide significant resources process, but most of the sites in the document will to fund the capital cost of providing local authority or already have come on stream. Does not that undermine registered social landlord sites. Between 2006 and 2008, the consultation process itself? we approved £54.6 million of funding that will deliver Mr. Malik: I fully understand where the hon. Gentleman over 400 additional pitches and refurbish 120 sites. is coming from. I hope that I have dealt with some of The south-west region has been allocated £9 million his genuine concerns about how the maths works within between 2009 and 2011. The grant is now administered the local authority. He asked me to meet him and other by the Homes and Communities Agency, which will colleagues to discuss that in more detail, which I am enable it to factor in the needs of Gypsy and Traveller certainly willing to do, because not only is that issue communities as part of its single conversation with affecting the council in his constituency, but there are local authorities and delivery partners. Bids for funding things that we can glean for elsewhere. in 2009-10 have now closed, but I encourage local I believe that the hon. Gentleman has come to the authorities and registered social landlords to begin the debate in a genuine and responsible manner. It is an work now to prepare bids for next year. The framework issue that many MPs are concerned about and that we that we have put in place is crucial to making progress have to get right. There are often issues of cohesion and on site provision and, coupled with effective enforcement community harmony at stake, and there are many action and a joined-up approach on the those issues, misconceptions. He would be the first person to try to will help to create the kind of fair, tolerant and cohesive disabuse people of views that were not only repugnant communities that both the hon. Gentleman and I would in some cases, but simply wrong factually, and that like to see. element of incorrectness leads to some of the more distasteful comments that we sometimes hear in our I congratulate the hon. Gentleman once again on communities. He is right to focus on fairness, because securing the debate and reiterate my commendation for ultimately the challenge for us, in positions of responsibility, the efforts being made in south Gloucestershire to is to get the message across that things are occurring address the issues discussed today and, importantly, to fairly, and where they are not, to deal with them in a address them responsibly, which both he and I are way that gives people confidence that we are serious equally aware of. about fairness. The hon. Gentleman also mentioned the population 2pm growth figures. In the absence of any locally available Sitting adjourned without Question put (Standing Order evidence, research has concluded that 3 per cent. growth No. 10(11)). 7WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 8WS

Extend our outreach to business through use of our online Written Ministerial IP Health Check, and over 66 per cent. of respondents will report it as useful. To demonstrate we deliver high quality services to our customers Statements we will receive “good” or “satisfactory” ratings in at least 80 per cent. of responses to customer surveys. Finance and Resources Tuesday 14 July 2009 We will demonstrate we are able to maintain a sustainable trading fund by delivering a 4 per cent. return on capital employed. Deliver a 5 per cent. cost efficiency with reference to 2008-09 TREASURY cost outturn (excluding VER/VES scheme and Science Museum IP exhibition sponsorship one-off costs) Internal Processes 2009-10 Tax and Benefit Reference Manual Complete 95 per cent. of staff performance reviews (to ensure everyone understands how their work contributed to the 2008-09 corporate plan and how they will be expected to perform to The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Stephen enable delivery of the four pillars in 2009-10) signed off and Timms): Copies of the 2009-10 edition of the “Tax returned to HR by 31 May 2009. Benefit Reference Manual” (TBRM) are today being To reduce our impact on the environment, increase proportion deposited in the House of Commons Library. of waste recycled to 60 per cent. HM Treasury publishes the TBRM annually. It is a To reduce our impact on the environment reduce carbon technical manual detailing the tax and benefit system, emissions by 10 per cent. compared to 2008-09 figures. describing both the current and historic regimes. Promote a healthy environment and reduce numbers of sick absence days per person to 7.0 days. To enable business effectiveness through reliable IT systems, BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS achieve 99 per cent. of the agreed monthly service levels for key IT systems. Intellectual Property Office (Performance Targets) Change and Development Positive feedback from participants of international forum on The Minister for Higher Education and Intellectual the economic value of IP. Property (Mr. David Lammy): I have tasked the Intellectual A plan will be agreed by SABIP and IPO for commissioning Property Office with managing and shaping an Intellectual items of research. Property system which encourages innovation and creativity, Two of these SABIP research projects to be completed and balances the needs of rights holders and the public, reports received. provides support to businesses on managing and exploiting Contracts to be awarded on a further two of these SABIP their Intellectual Property, and stimulates economic growth. research projects. Introduce new trade mark fees and services in October 2009 to I have set the Intellectual Property Office a broad maintain registration in the UK as an attractive option vis-à-vis range of targets for 2009-10 based on a balanced scorecard registration at OHIM. approach. These targets are: National and international stakeholders will report increased Customers and Stakeholders awareness of our work on copyright strategy. A substantive response to an allowable request for accelerated Ensure that the IPO has developed a coordinated strategy on patent examination to be issued within two months of receipt mutual recognition and promote that strategy with key international in 90 per cent. of searched applications. partners. Gain agreement on mutual recognition with Japan by Give good customer service in processing patent applications March 2010. in 95 per cent. of quality assured cases. Memorandums of understanding on work sharing signed with Issue 80 per cent. of patent searches within four months Korea and China in 2009. of request. Policy skills audit will be carried out and a targeted training The correct decision on registration will be made on at least and development programme devised by autumn 2009. 98.5 per cent. of trade mark applications. 90 per cent. of trade mark applications (to which no substantive objections have been raised or oppositions filed) to be registered COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT within seven months. 95 per cent. of correctly filed design applications to be registered Planning within two months. Develop a cross-Government international IP strategy which has been agreed by Whitehall ministerial or senior official The Minister for Housing (John Healey): The Government group by February 2010. will publish the UK Low Carbon Transition Plan shortly. The IPO Intelligence Hub will be seen by industry and enforcement This will set out the UK’s approach to becoming a agencies as the lead player in co-ordination and dissemination sustainable-advanced low-carbon country, which means of IP crime-related intelligence. cutting our emissions, securing our energy supplies, Industry and law enforcement agencies will give positive feedback maximising economic opportunities and protecting the on awareness raising and training activities. most vulnerable. The new development consent regime To increase the understanding of British business and society for Nationally Significant Infrastructure Projects (NSIPs) about how to make the best use of the IP system, a third venue for the Science Museum exhibition will have been identified provided for by the Planning Act 2008 is central to and agreement for an exhibition be in place by December 2009. delivering the development needed to meet these objectives. Evaluation of the Science Museum exhibition will demonstrate Today I can confirm that the new regime will be put in positive impact and value for money and provide information place starting from 1 October with the establishment of for future outreach work. the Infrastructure Planning Commission (IPC). 9WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 10WS

Earlier this year we made a commitment to listen to and gas infrastructure; ports; and road and rail networks. the views of promoters and others on the best way to Subject to the outcome of public consultation and implement the new regime and to provide further detail parliamentary scrutiny, we expect these NPSs to be on both implementation of the regime and production designated over the course of next year. of national policy statements (NPSs). The consistent The remaining four NPSs are being produced on a message that has emerged from this is the need for longer timeframe. We expect to consult on the Waste certainty and predictability. People want clarity about Water NPSs in spring 2010 and the Hazardous Waste when the new regime will consider applications from NPS in summer 2010, with the aim of designating them each sector and an adequate lead-in period between in 2011. We intend to consult on the Airports NPS by setting up the IPC and commencing the regime. 2011 with a view to designating it later that year. Finally Therefore, I am today announcing more detail on we hope to consult on the Water Supply NPS in late how we propose to implement the new regime. 2010—once the final Water Resource Management Plans First, I can confirm that we will establish the IPC are published, which are needed to inform the NPS—with from 1 October, from which date it will begin providing the aim of designating that NPS by early 2012. advice and guidance on preparing applications, and on In parallel with making this statement, I am publishing how the new regime will work. I can also confirm that a revised version of the IPC Implementation “Route the IPC will start accepting applications for development Map” which sets out our plans in more detail, as well as consent and examining these applications from 1 March providing an update on progress to date. I am placing 2010, when we intend to commence the new regime for copies of this in the Library of the House. NSIPs from the energy and transport sectors. Our intention The new regime which we are establishing will enable is to then bring waste water and hazardous waste sectors decisions about nationally significant infrastructure to on line in April 2011, and the water supply sector in be taken in a way that is fairer and faster. This is vital to April 2012. Setting firm implementation dates now will our economic, environmental and social wellbeing, including ensure that promoters and other stakeholders will be meeting the challenge of climate change, strengthening able to engage with the IPC with confidence. the voice of communities and individuals, and creating Secondly, I am proposing to appoint Dr. Pauleen the conditions for future economic success. Lane CBE and Robert Upton CBE as deputy chairs of the IPC. These appointments, which are subject to DEFENCE pre-appointment scrutiny by the Communities and Local Government Select Committee, will enable the IPC NATO Planning Questionnaire (Group Response) to be ready to open for business on 1 October. I will also be appointing three commissioners to the IPC later this month. The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Bob Ainsworth): Finally, I am publishing the third and final package Today I have released to the EU the UK’s response to of secondary legislation needed to establish the IPC. the NATO 2008 defence planning questionnaire. This This sets out the detailed procedures and rules which we questionnaire contains information on our forces and intend to put in place to govern the IPC examination of capabilities which we, and all other NATO partners, applications. We will make these regulations in good send to NATO on a biannual basis as part of their force time to come into force by 1 March 2010. planning process. NATO uses this information to Once NPSs are designated the IPC will decide understand what capabilities allies would in principle applications for development consent in accordance make available for NATO operations and to inform the with them. However, the IPC will be able to start planning process. receiving applications from the energy and transport NATO and the EU operate separate force planning sectors from 1 March 2010, irrespective of whether the and capability development processes and until now the relevant NPS has been designated. If for any reason the UK has made different offers of capability to the EU relevant NPS has not been designated when a particular and to NATO. For NATO we offer a large scale force application reaches the decision stage, the IPC would package while we offer a medium scale force package to make a recommendation to the relevant Secretary of the EU, which reflects the lower level of strategic ambition State, who would then take the decision. In this situation, within the European security and Defence policy the Planning Act allows the Secretary of State a maximum framework. However, following the precedent set by a of three months to make the decision, unless exceptional number of other NATO partners we have decided to circumstances apply. Our intention is to keep any submit our NATO defence planning questionnaire recommending period to a minimum. Where a relevant responses as the single source of UK information for NPS has been published in draft it would be a consideration both the NATO and EU capability planning processes. for the IPC when making its report and recommendation Respecting the autonomous decision-making processes to Ministers. of both organisations and noting that our single set of I can also update the House on our latest intentions capabilities is available for the UN, EU as well as for publishing draft NPSs. The UK Low Carbon Transition NATO and potentially other multilateral coalition Plan, which we are publishing shortly, brings together a operations, we judge it to be more efficient to maintain range of important policy developments including the one set of information on our forces and capabilities renewable energy strategy and proposals for regulating and to provide it in the same format to NATO and the new coal power stations, and has significant implications EU. Using the same set of information on nation’s for energy and transport policy which it is vital the capabilities will, in concurrency terms, assist both NPSs fully reflect. Because of this, our intention is now organisations in identifying and understanding the shortfalls to publish NPSs covering the following types of that exist across both organisations and in taking remedial infrastructure in the autumn: nuclear power; renewable action to address those shortfalls without duplication energy; electricity networks; fossil fuel generation; oil of effort. Sending the UK defence planning questionnaire 11WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 12WS to the EU will also provide momentum to the drive for clarification on some issues to Assistant Commissioner greater harmonisation between the NATO and EU John Yates on 10 July who responded the same day. I planning processes, a longstanding UK aspiration which am placing copies of that correspondence in the Library other nations support. We further hope that by taking of the House. this step it will encourage other European allies to The Director of Public Prosecutions announced on follow suit. 9 July an urgent examination of the material supplied It remains that case that, in respect of any multinational by the police three years ago to satisfy himself and operation, our forces are made available on a case-by-case assure the public that the appropriate actions were basis following a national decision. Releasing the UK taken in relation to that material. That review continues. defence planning questionnaire to the EU does not The Information Commissioner’s Office will consider therefore mean that we are increasing our level of what action to take if evidence emerges of breaches of commitment to any current or future EU operation. the Data Protection Act 1998. The Independent Police Complaints Commission has ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS received a complaint from the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) about police action in this case and are Animal Health Annual Report currently considering whether there are any issues raised which might fall within its remit. The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Any new evidence should be referred to the police or Food and Rural Affairs (Jim Fitzpatrick): The “2008-09 to the Information Commissioner if it relates to a data Annual Report and Accounts for Animal Health” will protection breach. be laid before Parliament today. The Government will report back to the House when there are any substantive developments. HOME DEPARTMENT INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Newspapers (Surveillance Methods/Update) Humanitarian Situation (Sri Lanka) The Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism (Mr. David Hanson): In response to the urgent question The Minister of State, Department for International on 9 July 2009, Official Report, column 1131 by the Development (Mr. Gareth Thomas): It is almost two hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Dr.Harris), months since the conflict ended in Sri Lanka. I would I undertook to report back to the House at an appropriate like to update the House on the humanitarian situation time. on the ground and to reiterate that meeting the Since that urgent question was answered, Assistant humanitarian needs of the internally displaced people Commissioner John Yates has made a public statement (IDPs) remains our immediate priority. on 9 July about the original inquiry by the Metropolitan The IDPs are now all held in camps in Vavuniya, Police Service into the alleged unlawful tapping of Jaffna, Trincomalee and Mannar. This population numbers mobile phones by Mr. Clive Goodman and Mr. Glen almost 284,000 people. The humanitarian situation is Mulcaire. I am placing the text of Assistant Commissioner now stabilising. Conditions in the IDP camps remain Yates’ statement in the Library of the House. basic but continue to improve as the priority needs of He has concluded that as no additional evidence has shelter, food, water, medicine and immediate access to come to light in respect of the Goodman/Mulcaire case surgical treatment are gradually met. However, we remain and as the Metropolitan Police Service has not formally concerned about high levels of malnutrition in the IDP received allegations in relation to the activities of any population, particularly among young children, other journalists there is no need for a further investigation. overcrowding and inadequate sanitation facilities. The Metropolitan Police has also confirmed that it We are also increasingly concerned about the lack of does not consider that there is anything else substantive freedom of movement for this IDP population and the in relation to additional evidence or information that restrictions put on protection activities, including ensuring would justify it re-opening the original investigation. the safety of the IDPs, reuniting unaccompanied children Neither has The Guardian approached the MPS with with their families and registration of the population as any new additional evidence. a whole. We encourage the Government of Sri Lanka to As mentioned in his statement on 9 July, Assistant do everything possible to ensure the civilian nature of Commissioner John Yates is ensuring that the Metropolitan the camps and allow humanitarian agencies to operate Police Service has been diligent, reasonable and sensible, effectively on the ground through facilitating the timely and taken all proper steps to ensure that where it has provision of visas and lifting the practical restrictions evidence that people have been the subject of any form that are still being imposed on entry. of phone tapping (by Mr. Clive Goodman or Mr. Glen We continue to engage fully with international and Mulcaire) or that there is any suspicion that they might multilateral partners. The Prime Minister raised have been; that they have been informed. The decision humanitarian access with President Rajapakse on 18 May. to inform individuals that they have been targeted for The Foreign Secretary also discussed the issue with the illegal interception of their phone communications is Sri Lankan Foreign Minister when they met on 5 June, an operational matter for the police. as did Lord Malloch-Brown with the Sri Lankan Minister Following his statement, and in view of comments for Trade and External Development when they met on that he had made in both Houses following last week’s 19 June. Our High Commissioner to Sri Lanka regularly newspaper articles, the director general of the Crime raises our concerns with senior Members of the Sri Lankan and Policing Group in the Home Office wrote seeking Government. We urge the Government of Sri Lanka to 13WS Written Ministerial Statements14 JULY 2009 Written Ministerial Statements 14WS make every effort to co-operate with international agencies, The Department for Transport is today publishing a including continuing a dialogue with the ICRC on consultation on draft regulations and guidance to support issues of humanitarian concern and to provide every the implementation of those provisions. Copies of the opportunity for the ICRC to implement its mandate as consultation materials will be made available on the Sri Lanka takes its first steps towards recovery. Department’s website (www.dft.gov.uk/localtransportact), DFID continues to support the relief effort to Sri Lanka and are being placed in the Libraries of the House. as the situation on the ground allows. Since September 2008, we have committed £12.5 million. This month we First Great Western Franchise approved £0.4 million to the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF) for an emergency measles and polio vaccination campaign covering all the IDP camps in The Minister of State, Department for Transport Vavuniya and for the provision of nutritional supplements. (Mr. Sadiq Khan): My right hon. and noble Friend the I would again like to reassure the House that all DFID Secretary of State for Transport (Lord Adonis) has funding is provided directly to neutral and impartial made the following ministerial statement. international agencies and we will continue to support On 26 February 2008, the then Secretary of State for Transport, the international agencies in their life saving work. my right hon. Friend theMember for Bolton West (Ruth Kelly), Looking forward, we urge the Government of Sri Lanka made a statement about the performance of the First Great to do everything they can to facilitate the return of the Western franchise, in which she informed Parliament that First IDPs from the camps to their homes as soon as possible, Great Western had breached its franchise agreement by exceeding including interim options of staying with host families, the limits on cancellations, and also by misreporting those and to allow freedom of movement as a priority. We cancellations. welcome the Government’s public commitment to return My right hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West, issued the bulk of IDPs to their homes within 180 days. In First Great Western with a remedial plan notice for exceeding the threshold on cancellations which had resulted in a breach addition, after 26 years of intermittent conflict, there of its franchise agreement. In response to this notice, First remain an additional 360,000 long term displaced people Great Western submitted a remedial plan addressing that level to consider who may now also wish to return to their of cancellations. communities of origin. We stand ready to support this On 17 March 2008 an agreement with First Great Western was work through funding international agencies that: signed, which required First Great Western to implement the (1) provide humanitarian demining activities; remedial plan and to comply with a forward trajectory for (2) enable returns through the provision of transport, shelter reducing cancellations. The remedial period started on 1 April 2008 and access to basic services; and and would end when the criteria in the agreement were met. (3) provide livelihood recovery activities, for example through The criteria in the agreement for the end of the remedial period cash grants, providing seeds and tools and vocational training. were met by First Great Western in relation to the four-week rail reporting period ending on 27 June 2009. Cancellations figures for this four-week period have been finalised. I am JUSTICE therefore now able to confirm that First Great Western has met the criteria and that the remedial period is therefore now at an Crown Court Means-testing (Consultation) end. Department for Transport officials have checked the manner in which the cancellations figures were calculated and I am satisfied that the criteria have been met. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice In her statement on 26 February 2008, my predecessor also (Bridget Prentice): My noble Friend, the Parliamentary announced that, in addition to the remedial plan, First Great Under-Secretary of State (Lord Bach) has made the Western had offered a package of passenger benefits amounting following written ministerial statement: to £29 million. Delivery of this obligation is not affected by the The Government published their response to “Consultation ending of the remedial period and I have been assured that and Impact Assessment on Crown Court Means-testing” on 8 June First Great Western is confident that they will meet the 2009. The response sets out the Government’s intention in respect commitments it made on time. of the introduction of the new scheme, to begin in January 2010. Today, I am announcing a consultation process on the draft regulations designed to support the introduction of Crown Court WALES Means-testing. The consultation period will last from 14 July 2009 until 5 October 2009. Copies of the draft regulations have been placed in the Libraries National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence of both Houses, and they are also available at: www.justice.gov.uk. Order) The Ministry’s website also gives details of how to respond to the consultation exercise. The Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Peter Hain): I TRANSPORT am pleased to inform the House that the proposed National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Local Government) Order 2009 has been laid today, as Quality Contracts Schemes Command Paper (Cm 7680). Copies of this Command Paper can be found in the The Minister of State, Department for Transport Vote Office and will be placed in the Library of the (Mr. Sadiq Khan): The Local Transport Act 2008 includes House from 12 noon. I have written to the Welsh provisions aimed at making bus quality contracts schemes Affairs Committee and to the House of Lords a more realistic option for local transport authorities Constitutional Committee to request they undertake outside London. pre-legislative scrutiny. 1P Petitions14 JULY 2009 Petitions 2P

Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities Petitions and Local Government: The Government understands the residents concern’s Tuesday 14 July 2009 about the future of playing field space, but it is the Government’s general approach not to interfere with the jurisdiction of local planning authorities unless it is necessary to do so. Parliament has entrusted them with PRESENTED PETITION responsibility for day-to-day planning control in their Petition presented to the House but not read on the Floor areas as they are normally best placed to make decisions relating to their areas and it is right that, in general, Taxis (Liverpool) they should be free to carry out their duties responsibly, The humble petition of Mr Alan Watterson, of 81 Elm with the minimum of interference. Vale Liverpool, the residents and taxi drivers of Wavertree I understand from Castle Point Borough Council Constituency and surrounding area. that no planning application has yet been made to them Sheweth, that the livelihoods of the legitimate taxi and in respect of this proposal. When an application has private hire trade in Liverpool are severely affected by been made, the Council will be required to publicise it in the cross-border hiring of vehicles licensed in neighbouring order that the public and other interested parties may boroughs; also sheweth that the safety and well-being of make known their views. They should also be guided by the taxi-using public is put at risk by the use of such the policies and advice set out in the Department’s un-licensed vehicles as their insurance is nullified. Planning Policy Guidance Notes, Statements (PPGs Wherefore your petitioners pray that your Honourable and PPS’s) and planning circulars. House urges the Secretary of State for Communities The Government’s statements of national planning and Local Government to consider amending the Local policy, such as Planning Policy Guidance 2 “Green Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 to Belts”, are material considerations which must be taken require taxis and private hire vehicles to return to the into account, where relevant, in planning decisions, but licensing area when they have completed a hiring that it is the responsibility of the local planning authority to terminates outside of that area, identify and weigh up all the different issues, in the context of the specific local circumstances, having regard And your petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever to the views of local residents and other interested parties. pray, etc—[Presented by Jane Kennedy .] Planning Policy Statement 25 (PPS25), Development [P000395] and Flood Risk, provides the policy framework for local planning authorities to avoid, manage and reduce OBSERVATIONS flood risk to new development without exposure to unnecessary flood risk. This is supported by the Practice COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT Guide published in June 2008 to assist local planners in Greenbelt Development (Essex) implementing PPS25 policy. The Petition of Ashleigh Sharp and others, It should be noted that the ‘Core Strategy Proposed Declares that building on Canvey’s flood plain, school Publication Document’ as the strategic plan forming fields and green land is totally unacceptable and that part of the Local Development Framework’ (LDF), what Canvey really needs is an additional access road does not allocate any sites as such but indicates the from the Northwick area; welcomes the recent referendum broad locations where the development will occur. which was professionally organised and conducted by I understand through discussions with the Council Graham Bracci and others, taken over the last few that the site referred to is identified within their Core weeks on Canvey Island, in which 6,534 people voted of Spatial Strategy for housing purposes. The consultation whom 99.13 per cent. supported the motion that there concluded on 20 March 2009. should be no further development on Canvey Island While there is an urgent need for more housing greenbelt land; also welcomes the Constituency wide development in this country, the location of new housing ‘Save Castle Point Greenbelt’campaign which was launched is very important, to ensure new development is in by Bob Spink MP in March 2007 and the subsequent sustainable locations. It is also important amongst many localised save the greenbelt campaigns such as that to other issues, that the character of settlements are protected stop development on Daws Heath; and notes the as appropriate, and that the countryside is protected for overwhelming view of Castle Point residents that their its own sake if appropriate to do so. greenbelt should be protected and totally rejects the Any proposed access road to Canvey Island is the suggestion by Castle Point Councillors that residents responsibility for Essex County Council, as local highway implicitly agree with their Core Strategy plan to build authority. on greenbelt. Should the Council, in liaison with Castle Point The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Borough Council, decide to promote such a scheme, it Commons urges the Government to encourage Essex would need to obtain the East of England region’s County and Castle Point Borough Councillors to respect agreement to prioritise the scheme for funding within the flood plain, rescind plans to sell off part of Castle its Regional Funding Allocation for major transport View School playing field, protect Castle Point greenbelt schemes. The Council would then need to submit a in its core strategy and make the Canvey additional detailed Major Scheme Business Case for the scheme, in access road their priority. line with Departmental guidance, for consideration and And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Bob assessment by my Department. Spink, Official Report, 1 June 2009; Vol. 493, c. 136 .] Alternatively, the Council could seek funding from its [P000375] own or through third party sources. 3P Petitions14 JULY 2009 Petitions 4P

Planning and Development (Somerset) Observations from the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government: The Petition of residents of the Taunton constituency and others, Proposed changes to the draft South West Regional Spatial Strategy were the subject of public consultation Declares that the Petitioners are extremely concerned between July and October 2008. I regret that therefore that the Regional Spatial Strategy for the South West no new representations can be taken into account now, requires the creation of 21,800 new homes in Taunton as to do so would be unfair to other respondents. Deane within the next 20 years; and notes that the residents of Taunton Deane have had no recourse to I planned to publish the RSS at the end of June 2009. decide on the suitability of the plan locally despite the However, on 20 May, the High Court issued a judgment significant impact such large scale development will that the previously issued Regional Spatial Strategy for have on living standards in the local area. the East of England had failed to meet certain requirements of the Strategic Environmental Assessment Directive, The Petitioners therefore request that the House of in respect of three towns. Commons urges the Government to reassess its commitment to the over development of Taunton Deane The Department for Communities and Local and bring forward a revised option which strikes a more Government and the Government Office for the South appropriate balance between the need for greater affordable West are considering the implications for the South housing and the quality of life in Taunton Deane. West Regional Spatial Strategy, but cannot reach a clear view until the written judgment is issued by the Court. And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Setting a new timetable for the final publication of the Mr. Jeremy Browne, Official Report, 10 June 2009; SW RSS is not possible, until the implications of the Vol. 493, c. 907 .] judgment have been clarified, and what action is required, [P000381] if any. 203W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 204W

Barbara Keeley: The Parliamentary Standards Bill Written Answers to which will create and define the role of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority is still being considered Questions by Parliament. Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority: Tuesday 14 July 2009 Finance

Tony Baldry: To ask the Leader of the House what SCOTLAND estimate she has made of the size of the annual budget of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Departmental Buildings Authority. [285966]

Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Barbara Keeley: The Parliamentary Standards Bill Scotland how much in (a) rent, (b) service charges which will create and define the role of the Independent and (c) business rates has been paid in respect of each Parliamentary Standards Authority is still being considered of the premises occupied by his Department in each by Parliament. The budget for the authority therefore year since 2005. [284862] has not been finalised. It will be made public as soon as Ann McKechin: The Scotland Office spend on rent, possible. service charges and business rates since 2005 is as follows: Legislation: Parliamentary Scrutiny

£ Tony Baldry: To ask the Leader of the House what 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 provisions she plans to make for time on the Floor of Rent 182,704 224,301 209,767 210,923 the House for debate on the Government’s draft Service 185,398 207,753 171,090 194,773 legislative programme for 2009-10. [285656] charges1 Rates 185,051 187,005 203,130 183,379 Barbara Keeley: The Government hope to make time 1 Gas, electricity, water and cleaning. available on the Floor of the House for a debate on Building Britain’s Future, including the Draft Legislative Programme, before the end of the current Session. LEADER OF THE HOUSE My right hon. Friend has also invited the Liaison Divisions Committee to consider the Draft Legislative Programme. John Mann: To ask the Leader of the House what Legislation: Public Consultation information she holds on the number of hon. Members taking part in divisions in the House. [286952] Tony Baldry: To ask the Leader of the House with reference to page 113 of the Building Britain’s Future Barbara Keeley: The number of hon. Members taking document, what the (a) dates and (b) locations are of part in each division in the House, including deferred each regional event in which Ministers will be taking divisions, is published in both the Votes and Proceedings part to highlight the publication of the Government’s and the Official Report. Draft Legislative Programme and the Building Britain’s East of England Regional Grand Committee Future White Paper; which Ministers will participate in each such event; and what estimate she has made of the Andrew Mackinlay: To ask the Leader of the House cost of each such event. [285967] what factors (a) she and (b) Ministerial colleagues took into account, and what consultations she held, Barbara Keeley: Since the launch of Building Britain’s before proposing 8 September 2009 to the House for Future by the Prime Minister on 29 June, regional the first meeting of the East of England Regional events have already taken place in Oxfordshire (30 Grand Committee; and if she will make a statement. June), Brighton (2 July), Plymouth (6 July), Cambridge [285863] (9 July) and Portsmouth (10 July). Participating Ministers included the relevant Regional Ministers, the Chancellor Barbara Keeley: The Government proposed that the of the Exchequer and the Secretaries of State for Justice, majority of regional grand committees meet during the Communities and Local Government, and Culture, Media summer recess in order to minimise any clash with other and Sport. business of the House. Further events are currently being arranged and they The decision to hold the meeting of the East of will be detailed on the website at: England Regional Grand Committee on 8 September www.hmg.gov.uk/buildingbritainsfuture/roadshow.aspx was approved by the House. The costs of these events are being collated as they Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority happen and they are being kept to a minimum. They will be published once all events have taken place. Tony Baldry: To ask the Leader of the House what the working relationship will be between the Legislatures: EC Countries Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority and (a) the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards, John Mann: To ask the Leader of the House what (b) the Committee on Standards in Public Life and (c) information she holds on the sitting dates of the the Committee of Standards and Privileges. [286632] parliaments of other EU member states. [286716] 205W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 206W

Barbara Keeley: The Office of the Leader of the Crossrail Line House of Commons does not hold any information on the sitting dates of the Parliaments of other EU member Mr. Tom Harris: To ask the Minister of State, states. Department for Transport when he expects Crossrail passenger services to commence. [286059] Members: Visits Abroad Mr. Khan: The first Crossrail services are expected to John Mann: To ask the Leader of the House how commence in 2017. Services are expected to be introduced much the House has spent on foreign travel for hon. on a phased basis with full operation due in 2018. Members in 2008-09. [286443] Crossrail Line: Finance

Barbara Keeley: A total of £1.88 million was spent on Mr. Tom Harris: To ask the Minister of State, foreign travel for hon. Members in 2008-09. Department for Transport whether he plans to review the level of his Department’s contribution to the cost of constructing Crossrail. [286057] HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport has no current plans to change the level of contribution to the Parliament: Security Crossrail funding package. However, the Crossrail project governance arrangements do make provision for the Tom Brake: To ask the hon. Member for North project sponsors (Department for Transport and Transport Devon, representing the House of Commons for London) to review costs and funding at agreed Commission how many security officers of each points in the programme. category were working on the Parliamentary estate in Driver Information Systems each year since 2000. [286437]

Nick Harvey: It is not the policy of the House authorities Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, to answer questions on security matters. Department for Transport if he will estimate the number of vehicles on the road in the UK which use satellite navigation devices. [285837] Tony Blair: Allowances Paul Clark: This information is not currently available. David T.C. Davies: To ask the hon. Member for However, a question on the presence of satellite navigation North Devon, representing the House of Commons devices in vehicles was added to the National Travel Commission whether records of additional costs Survey with effect from January 2008. Results from the allowance claims made by the right hon. Tony Blair 2008 National Travel Survey are planned for release when he was Prime Minister have been destroyed; and later in the year. if he will make a statement. [284608] Driving: Licensing Nick Harvey: Original claims made by Tony Blair for additional costs allowance in 2003-04 and previous Mark Hunter: To ask the Minister of State, years have been destroyed in line with the House service’s Department for Transport on how many occasions the records disposal policy. However, copies of Mr. Blair’s Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency has withdrawn additional costs allowance claims in 2001-02, 2002-03 driving licences after receiving notification that the and 2003-04, which have been released under the Freedom licence holder was medically unfit to drive from (a) the of Information Act, have been retained in line with our licence holders and (b) a general practitioner in each policy of retaining records which have been the subject year since 1997. [286839] of FOI requests. Paul Clark: The information as requested is not available; however, while the separate figures are not available, the combined figures for the total number of TRANSPORT driving licences revoked following a medical notification since 2004 are shown in the following table. Bus Services: Concessions Number

Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, 2008 32,011 Department for Transport pursuant to the answer to 2007 33,083 the hon. Member for Bromley and Chislehurst of 2006 26,912 16 June 2009, Official Report, column 170W, on bus 2005 23,388 services: concessions, if he will seek the consent of the 2004 25,334 local authorities listed for their written representations to be placed in the Library. [283969] Mark Hunter: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what recent assessment he Mr. Khan: Department for Transport officials are has made of the effectiveness of the procedure for contacting the relevant authorities seeking consent to withdrawal of driving licences as a result of persons place their written representations in the Library of the being medically unfit to drive; and if he will make a House. statement. [286840] 207W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 208W

Paul Clark: The Department for Transport is Mr. Tom Harris: To ask the Minister of State, currently reviewing the system in place in Great Britain Department for Transport (1) whether the new for ensuring that only those drivers who are fit to drive franchise on the East Coast Main Line will be required are licensed to do so. We are in the process of considering to provide rail services to Glasgow; [286055] the complex issues raised in this review and intend to (2) if he will require the specification for the new consult on how we can improve the service offered to all East Coast Main Line franchise in preparation by the drivers. Department to maintain services at or above the level East Coast Railway Line: Franchises of service in the franchise awarded to National Express East Coast. [286056] Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport pursuant to the statement of 1 July 2009, Chris Mole: Work has now started to develop proposals Official Report, columns 424-27, on National Express for the specification of the replacement franchise. This East Coast franchise, what recent assessment he has will include looking at service patterns and destinations. made of the viability of other franchises held by The draft specification will be consulted on with National Express. [284817] stakeholders, including passenger groups, parliamentarians and the Scottish Executive. Chris Mole: All rail franchises are formally regularly monitored through the monthly and quarterly franchise performance meetings. Both National Express East Anglia Hazardous Waste and National Express c2c are monitored in this way and are currently meeting their obligations under their franchise agreements. Andrew George: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what hazardous waste Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, cargoes have been reported as having been lost Department for Transport with reference to Chart 5 of overboard in UK waters since 1997 but have not been his Department’s publication, Franchise Evaluation recovered; what packages containing hazardous goods Process Charts, May 2008, Selection of Winning Bid, were reported found in UK waters since 1 January whether the difference between the risk-adjusted net 1997; what the (a) date of finding, (b) origin of the present value of the National Express East Coast bid goods, (c) nature of the incident giving rise to the for the Intercity East Coast Franchise and the deposit of the package and (d) location of the find was risk-adjusted net prevent value of the next best bidder in each case; and what reporting requirements apply in for the same franchise was greater than the materiality respect of such losses overboard (i) in UK waters and threshold, after an assessment of the affordability, (ii) on UK-registered vessels carrying hazardous cargo. compliance and deliverability of the bid had been [286300] completed. [285882] Paul Clark: Details of hazardous cargoes lost overboard Chris Mole: The Intercity East Coast Franchise was from ships in the UK pollution control zone are given in let on 13 August 2007. A January 2007 version of the annual reports produced by the Advisory Committee Franchise Evaluation Process Charts was used in the on Protection of the Sea (ACOPS). ACOPS reports for evaluation process. 2001-07 are available on the Maritime and Coastguard The lead bidder’s risk adjusted net present value and Agency’s website—under the Emergency Response menu— National Express East Coast risk-adjusted net present at: value were both within the materiality threshold as http://www.mcga.gov.uk stated in the Franchise Evaluation Process Charts. The risk adjusted net present values included risk adjusted To provide the specific details as requested would elements for specification compliance, deliverability and incur disproportionate costs. affordability. Reporting requirements for loss of cargo overboard are contained in the Statutory Instrument 1995 No. 2498— Stephen Hammond: To ask the Minister of State, The Merchant Shipping (Reporting Requirements for Department for Transport with reference to chart 4 of Ships Carrying Dangerous or Polluting Goods) Regulations his Department’s publication, Franchise Evaluation 1995. This can be found on the Maritime and Coastguard Process Charts, May 2008, categorisation of financial Agency’s website at: risk, whether his Department ascertained http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga- from National Express Group plc whether they were mnotice.htm?textobjid=466274775289B019 prepared to provide an additional unfettered facility or an on-demand loan to National Express East Coast; and whether the schedule 12 ratio fell below 1.05 per Local Government Finance cent. at any time during the franchise. [285883] Chris Mole: The Intercity East Coast Franchise was Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, let on 13 August 2007. A January 2007 version of the Department for Transport (1) which (a) specific and Franchise Evaluation Process Charts was used in the (b) area-based grants are distributed to local evaluation process. authorities by each division of his Department; As part of their submission, National Express Group [285113] committed a loan facility of £40 million that was sufficient (2) what estimate has been made of the annual cost to maintain the bid in the medium financial risk category to (a) his Department of distributing each grant made and the schedule 12 ratio above 1.05 at any point during by it to local authorities and (b) local authorities of the franchise. administering each such grant; [285114] 209W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 210W

(3) what (a) eligibility conditions and (b) Full/ Percentage Percentage compliance measures are in place in respect of the provisional Provisional provisional full expenditure by local authorities of each grant distributed by his Department; and what recent 1997 22,832,732 21,368,520 94 6 estimate has been made of the annual cost to his 1998 23,760,048 22,302,028 94 6 Department of monitoring the compliance by local 1999 24,639,737 23,203,452 94 6 authorities with such measures in respect of each such 2000 25,403,909 23,996,248 94 6 grant. [285122] 2001 26,288,998 24,879,335 95 5 2002 27,667,609 26,268,281 95 5 Mr. Khan: The Government believe in giving local 2003 29,169,100 27,806,069 95 5 authorities greater flexibility to take decisions on local 2004 30,759,591 29,446,216 96 4 priorities. The introduction of the Area Based Grant 2005 32,404,429 31,180,161 96 4 has reduced ring-fencing, giving councils increased flexibility 2006 34,589,872 33,362,453 96 4 to manage their budgets. Alongside this, the new local 2007 37,382,194 36,179,419 97 3 performance framework has provided a simplified and 2008 40,073,283 39,104,336 98 2 more effective structure for priority setting and performance 2009 41,246,796 40,771,889 99 1 measurement. The following specific revenue grants are being paid Motorways: Repairs and Maintenance by the Department for Transport direct to local authorities in 2009-10: Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Urban and rural bus challenge, and Kick start Department for Transport how many miles of Concessionary Travel motorway will be subject to road works in each region on England in August 2009; and what estimate he has Cycling and walking funding made of the number of days on which traffic flow is Urban congestion performance fund likely to be affected by each such roadwork. [285779] Pump-priming for the Transport Innovation Fund Area Based Grant is paid by Communities and Local Chris Mole: The number of miles of motorway that Government on behalf of the Government as a whole. will be subject to road works in each region in England Funding streams from the Department which are being in August 2009 are detailed in the following table: paid through Area Based Grant in 2009-10 are: Approximate estimate revenue funding for detrunked roads Total number of miles of the number of road revenue funding for road safety of motorway that will works schemes taking be subject to road works place on the motorway rural bus subsidy. Region in August 2009 in August 2009 The Department does not routinely estimate the costs East 35.8 11 of distributing grant each year, although it does consider East Midlands 15 1 the cost effectiveness of proposals as part of the policy North West 303.1 190 development process. It also assesses whether there will South East 22.5 9 be any new burdens on local authorities, and ensures South West 34 8 that these are fully funded when a policy is implemented. West Midlands 288 52 As Area Based Grant is not ring-fenced, it comes Yorkshire and North 209.3 69 with no specific conditions or compliance requirements. East Eligibility conditions and compliance measures vary with each specific revenue grant. I am placing in the The number of days on which traffic flow is likely to House of Commons Library a copy of all Grant be affected varies considerably according to the type of Determinations for 2009-10 made by the Department. road works being undertaken in each region. These set out the purpose of the grant and grant conditions. Railways The Department is also making available substantial capital support to local authorities in 2009-10. Information Ms Barlow: To ask the Minister of State, on grant arrangements for such support is on the Department for Transport if he will take steps to Department’s website. require train operating companies to abide by their contractual obligations to increase paper waste Motorcycles: Licensing recycling and reduce electricity usage; and what recent representations he has received from train operating companies on the matter. [285796] Norman Baker: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport how many and what Chris Mole: The Department for Transport is committed percentage of motorcyclists were driving on a to including environmental objectives such as reducing provisional licence in each year since 1997. [284807] energy consumption and increasing recycling in all franchises. Once these are agreed, they are monitored Paul Clark: The following statistics reflect the number by the Department as part of the normal franchise of drivers held on the Driver and Vehicle Licensing management process. Earlier this month, officials discussed Agency database holding motorcycle entitlement. with train operators how to embed a wide range of Percentages are shown for both full and provisional sustainability issues, such as recycling and energy motorcycle licence holders in Great Britain: consumption in future franchises. 211W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 212W

Railways: Fares Road Traffic Act 1988

Mr. Tom Harris: To ask the Minister of State, Mark Hunter: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Transport what proposals his Department for Transport on how many occasions Department is considering in relation to changes to the inquiries into road accidents under section 180 of the regime governing regulation of rail fares. [286113] Road Traffic Act 1988 have been held. [286838] Paul Clark: No inquiries have been held under section Chris Mole: My noble Friend, the then Minister of 180 of the Road Traffic Act 1988. State for Transport announced in February that the increase in the cap for regulated fares (usually the retail Severn Bridge: Tolls prices index + 1 per cent.) will, in general, be applied to individual regulated fares next year as well as to baskets of fares. We also intend to regulate the rail Oyster Pay Jessica Morden: To ask the Minister of State, as You Go fares when these are introduced. Department for Transport what recent progress has been made on introducing facilities for payment of Severn crossing tolls by credit and debit card. [285959] Railways: Finance Mr. Khan: Detailed discussions are currently taking Mr. McLoughlin: To ask the Minister of State, place with the Severn Crossings Concessionaire to resolve Department for Transport how much capital funding both technical and financial issues. This will then permit the Government has allocated to the rail network in payment of tolls by credit and debit cards. (a) West Derbyshire and (b) England in each of the We recognise the importance of implementing card last five years. [286407] payments for the Severn crossings and are working to introduce this as soon as possible. Chris Mole: The information is not available in the form requested. A breakdown of annual expenditure by Transport: Finance mode and region is available in the Department for Transport’s Annual Report. Details of total historic Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Minister of State, expenditure are available in National Rail Trends which Department for Transport what funding (a) his is published by the Office of Rail Regulation. Copies of Department and (b) its agencies have given to the these documents are available in the Library of the Campaign for Better Transport in each of the last three House. years; and for what purpose. [286517]

Railways: Floods Mr. Khan: I refer the hon. Member to the answer I gave him on 7 July 2009, Official Report, column 639W.

Dr. Kumar: To ask the Minister of State, Department Transport: York for Transport what steps his Department has taken to ensure the continued operation of the rail network in Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister of State, the North East in the event of flooding. [285225] Department for Transport how much local transport grant his Department has allocated to City of York Chris Mole: Network Rail has contingency plans in Unitary Council in each year since its creation; and place to deal with such incidents. In addition, the review what criteria are used to determine the amount of into the 2007 floods conducted by Sir Michael Pitt grant allocated to each local authority. [285707] provided a recommended action for the rail industry to develop plans to provide emergency welfare support to Mr. Khan: The Department for Transport provides passengers stranded on the rail network. As a result, the integrated transport block and highways maintenance Department for Transport has worked with Network funding to local transport authorities to support capital Rail to review the current practice in relation to the investment in transport, which may be used for a range recommendation. of purposes as the authorities see fit. Funding allocated to the City of York is as follows: Railways: Franchises £ million Integrated Highways Total pre-LTP Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister of State, Transport Maintenance Funding1 Department for Transport whether train operating 2008-09 3.737 1.379 — companies which hold more than one franchise and 2007-08 4.141 1.419 — default on the conditions for one franchise may retain 2006-07 4.478 1.386 — [286832] the remaining franchises. 2005-06 4.9 1.325 — 2004-05 4.84 1.462 — Chris Mole: There are cross-default provisions in all 2003-04 4.7 1.281 — franchise agreements. The Secretary of State will consider 2002-03 4.4 1.155 — the individual circumstances of the case in reaching a 2001-02 4.9 1.095 — decision as to whether to apply them. The decision 2000-01 1.55 0.712 — whether to cross-default can only be taken once one of 1999-2000 — — 1.983 the franchises has been terminated. 1998-99 — — 1.127 213W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 214W

Agriculture: Subsidies £ million Integrated Highways Total pre-LTP Transport Maintenance Funding1 Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many 1997-98 — — 2.212 payments under the single payment scheme in relation 1 Since 2000 the allocations comprise integrated transport block grant and highways maintenance. Prior to 2000 the allocations are in the form of gross to farms in (a) Lancashire and (b) Chorley approved spending. constituency were outstanding on the latest date for Details on the allocation of funding to local authorities which figures are available. [285006] can be found on the Department’s website at: http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/regional/ltp/ Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many payments under the single payment scheme in relation ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL AFFAIRS to farms in (a) Hemel Hempstead, (b) Dacorum and (c) Hertfordshire were outstanding on the latest date Agricultural Shows for which figures are available. [285244]

Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for Jim Fitzpatrick: The rural payments agency does not Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps the record information on payments to farmers on a regional Government are taking to support (a) the Royal basis. The information requested could be obtained agricultural show, (b) the Lancashire show and (c) only at disproportionate cost. other agricultural shows. [283607] Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA does not financially support Animal Health Agency: Consultants agricultural shows but instead ensures that there is a departmental presence at a number of agricultural shows Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for over the summer months. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much the At this year’s Royal Show DEFRA has its own Animal Health Agency spent on consultants in each of bespoke stand as well as a trailer, based in the livestock the last five years. [285537] and agriculture area. The Secretary of State and other department Ministers visited the show throughout its Jim Fitzpatrick: Animal Health employ a range of duration. The Chief veterinary officer, deputy veterinary consultants such as project managers, systems officer and director general for farming also attended. implementation specialists, systems testers, business/ The Lancashire show is not taking place in 2009. requirements analysts, planning and delivery consultants, However DEFRA did attend the 2008 Show. benefits realisation managers, change management and DEFRA Ministers or officials are attending an additional trainers (IT specialists). 13 other agricultural shows—a mix of regional and The following table shows the amount that Animal sector events—during June to September 2009. DEFRA Health spent on consultants in each of the last four has a bespoke trailer at the majority of these shows. years. Unfortunately, figures cannot be obtained for years prior to Animal Health being formed. Agriculture: Regulation

Total spend on consultants1 (£ Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for million) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what plans there are to reduce the regulatory burden on farmers. 2005-06 1.852 [283613] 2006-07 3.333 2007-08 3.708 Jim Fitzpatrick: Our plans for reducing burdens on 2008-09 3.555 the farming industry and progress so far is set out in 1 Data was taken from Animal Health’s published annual accounts. ’Better Regulation, Better Business’ our Simplification Plan published in December 2008, which includes measures Birds: Imports that contribute to reducing the administrative (red tape) burden on farmers by 25 per cent. by 2010. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Burdens on farmers can be reduced in many ways. Environment, Food and Rural Affairs from which These include matching regulatory requirements to business countries outside the EU birds of species (a) listed and practice, and reducing duplication of effort, for example (b) not listed under the Convention on International by co-ordinating inspections so that a single visit covers Trade in Endangered Species have been imported into multiple activities. DEFRA is working in partnership the UK in each of the last five years; and for what with its agencies, especially RPA, to develop online purposes they have been imported. [284512] transactional services of which Whole Farm Approach is the leading example. Fast and easy access to advice Huw Irranca-Davies: The Trade Control and Expert and guidance is also available online, via the farming System (TRACES) database, which holds information theme on BusinessLink. on imports into the UK, does not distinguish between We are engaging farmers’ representatives in identifying species listed under the Convention on International more things that might be done to reduce burdens, and Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) and species not responding to suggestions submitted via the 90-day so listed, and does not hold information on the purpose portal (hosted on the BIS website at: of imports. http://www.betterregulation.gov.uk Table 1 shows the data obtained from the TRACES which allows anyone to submit their ideas for simplification. database for all bird species (for non-EU imports). 215W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 216W

Table 2 shows the data on CITES species held by the Table 2: Imports of CITES listed birds for the last five years (information supplied by Wildlife Licensing and Registration Service in Animal Health)— Wildlife Licensing and Registration Service in Animal recorded countries of export and purpose of import Health (for non-EU imports). Exporting country Recorded purposes of imports

Notes: Qatar Personal; trade 1. Only the commodity code (birds of prey/parrots/other birds) is Russian Federation Breeding in captivity recorded on TRACES rather than the full species name. Solomon Islands Trade 2. The TRACES system was not in operation prior to 2004. South Africa Breeding in captivity; personal; trade Table 1: Imports of all birds as recorded on TRACES Suriname Personal Exporting countries Switzerland Zoo 2004 UAE, Australia, Barbados, Bahrain, Benin, Brazil, Canada, Tanzania, United Republic Zoo Switzerland, Ivory Coast, China, Czechoslovakia, Egypt, Ghana, of Guinea, Guyana, Hong Kong, Heard and McDonald Islands, United Arab Emirates Breeding in captivity Indonesia, Japan, Kazakhstan, Mali, Malaysia, Niger, Nigeria, Peru, Russian Federation, Solomon Islands, Singapore, Senegal, United States of America Breeding in captivity; personal Suriname, El Salvador, Thailand, Turkey, Tanzania, Ukraine, Uganda, United States, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Vietnam, South Venezuela Trade Africa Zambia Personal Zimbabwe Personal 2005 UAE, Australia, Barbados, Bahrain, Benin, Brazil, Canada, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Switzerland, Ivory Coast, Cameroon, Cuba, Egypt, Ghana, Guinea, Guyana, Hong Kong, 2005 Australia Personal Indonesia, Japan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kazakhstan, Morocco, Mauritius, Bahrain Breeding in captivity; trade Namibia, Nigeria, Nicaragua, Peru, Philippines, Pakistan, Russian Federation, Sudan, Singapore, Senegal, Suriname, Chad, Togo, Cameroon Trade Taiwan, Tanzania, Ukraine, Uganda, United States, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, Zambia Canada Personal Chad Trade 2006 Argentina, Australia, Barbados, Benin, Brazil, Canada, Democratic Egypt Personal Republic of the Congo, Switzerland, Cameroon, Cuba, Egypt, Georgia, Ghana, Guyana, Hong Kong, Indonesia, Jordan, Guinea Trade Madagascar, Mauritius, Malaysia, Philippines, Pakistan, Russian Guyana Trade Federation, Suriname, El Salvador, Turkey, Tanzania, Ukraine, Uganda, United States, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, South Africa, Zambia Isle of Man Personal Ivory Coast Trade 2007 UAE, Australia, Barbados, Benin, Brazil, Canada, Democratic Jersey Breeding in captivity; personal; trade; Republic of the Congo, Switzerland, Cuba, Egypt, Ghana, scientific; zoos Guatemala, Guyana, Indonesia, Macedonia, Malaysia, Philippines, Kazakhstan Trade Pakistan, Russian Federation, Saudi Arabia, Solomon Islands, Seychelles, Sudan, Singapore, Suriname, Turkey, Tanzania, Uganda, Namibia Trade United States, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, South Africa, Zambia Philippines Breeding in captivity Qatar Personal 2008 UAE, Barbados, Bahrain, Benin, Brazil, Canada, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Cameroon, Egypt, Ghana, Gibraltar, Russian Federation Reintroduction or introduction into Guyana, Indonesia, Israel, India, Japan, Madagascar, Macedonia, the wild Mauritius, Malaysia, Nigeria, Philippines, Russian Federation, Singapore Personal Sudan, Senegal, Suriname, Turkey, Taiwan, Tanzania, Ukraine, United states, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, South Africa, South Africa Personal Zambia, Zimbabwe Suriname Trade Switzerland Zoos Table 2: Imports of CITES listed birds for the last five years (information supplied by Wildlife Licensing and Registration Service in Animal Health)— Taiwan Trade recorded countries of export and purpose of import Tanzania, United Republic Zoos Exporting country Recorded purposes of imports of Trinidad and Tobago Personal 2004 Australia Personal Canada Personal; trade United Arab Emirates Personal; zoos Czech Republic Trade United States of America Personal; zoos Egypt Personal Zimbabwe Trade Guinea Trade Guyana Trade 2006 Australia Personal Canada Personal Ivory Coast Trade Gambia Personal Japan Trade Jersey Breeding in captivity; travelling exhibition Guernsey Trade and circuses; trade; zoos Philippines Breeding in captivity Kazakhstan Breeding in captivity; trade Russian Federation Reintroduction or introduction into Kenya Personal the wild Kuwait Personal South Africa Personal Namibia Trade Switzerland Zoos Peru Trade United Arab Emirates Personal Philippines Breeding in captivity United States of America Breeding in captivity; personal 217W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 218W

Table 2: Imports of CITES listed birds for the last five years (information Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for supplied by Wildlife Licensing and Registration Service in Animal Health)— recorded countries of export and purpose of import Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many birds Exporting country Recorded purposes of imports of each species (a) listed and (b) not listed under the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Zimbabwe Personal Species were recorded as being imported into the (i) EU and (ii) UK on the Trade Control and Expert 2007 Alderney Personal System database in each year since 2000; and of those Bahrain Personal recorded as being imported into the UK how many in each category were imported from countries (A) within Canada Breeding in captivity and (B) not part of the EU in each year. [284514] Ghana Personal Guatemala Personal Huw Irranca-Davies: The Trade Control and Expert Guernsey Personal System (TRACES) database does not distinguish between Israel Personal species listed under the Convention on International Jersey Zoos Trade in Endangered Species (CITES) and species not Kuwait Personal so listed. It is therefore not possible to make the distinction requested at items (a) and (b) of the question. Norway Reintroduction or introduction into the wild It is not possible to supply the information requested Philippines Breeding in captivity at item (i) since we do not have access to EU-wide Russian Federation Reintroduction or introduction into statistics: each member state would need to advise on the wild numbers imported separately. South Africa Personal The information we hold on the numbers of birds Switzerland Zoos imported into the UK from within and outside the EU United Arab Emirates Breeding in captivity; personal according to the TRACES database for each year since United States of America Breeding in captivity; educational; 2000 is shown in the tables. personal; zoos Notes: Zimbabwe Personal 1. Only the commodity code (birds of prey/parrots/other birds) is recorded on TRACES rather than the full species name. 2008 Bahrain Personal 2. The TRACES system was not in operation prior to 2004. Canada Personal 3. ‘Other Birds’ imported from within the EU will include pheasant/ China Personal partridge day-old chicks incorrectly entered under the ‘Other Cuba Zoos Birds’ code by other member states (this will have therefore increased figures). Democratic Republic of Breeding in captivity Congo Birds recorded on TRACES as having been imported into the UK from within the Ghana Personal EU TRACES Commodity Israel Zoos code Number Jersey Zoos 2004 Birds of Prey 7 Kenya Personal Parrots 24,458 Norway Reintroduction or introduction into the wild Other Birds 24,260 Russian Federation Personal; reintroduction or introduction Total 48,725 into the wild South Africa Personal 2005 Birds of Prey 38 Tanzania, United Republic Personal of Parrots 57,885 United Arab Emirates Breeding in captivity Other Birds 2,991,995 United States of America Breeding in captivity; personal; zoos Total 3,049,918

2006 Birds of Prey 27 CITES species listed on appendix III do not require Parrots 159,396 CITES permits to be issued to enable their import to take place. They do however require import notifications Other Birds 3,168,705 to be made. The country of export is recorded on Total 3,328,128 import notifications, but not the purpose of the import. The table shows details of exporting countries for 2007 Birds of Prey 32 which import notifications were issued (for imports into Parrots 243,006 the UK). Other Birds 4,130,388 Total 4,373,426 Exporting countries

2004 Mali; South Africa 2008 Birds of Prey 52 2005 Chad; Ghana; Guinea; Jersey; Senegal; United States of America Parrots 24,593 2006 One notification made but ‘exporting country’ not entered Other Birds 6,186,499 2007 Japan 2008 Jersey Total 6,211,144 219W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 220W

Birds recorded on TRACES as having been imported into the UK from within the Huw Irranca-Davies: We do not hold figures on the EU number of dog exclusion orders and dogs on leads TRACES Commodity code Number orders introduced by local authorities under the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 or the 2009 (1 January 2009 Birds of Prey 9 proportion of such orders that have affected land classified to 30 June 2009) as open access land. However, I am aware that Natural Parrots 14,224 England has been consulted by local authorities on five Other Birds 4,850,244 Dog Control Orders where a proposal to make an Total 4,864,477 Order would affect open access land mapped under the Countryside and Right of Way Act 2000. Grand total 21,875,818 Compost Birds recorded on TRACES as having been imported into the UK from outside the EU Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State TRACES Commodity for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will code Number place in the Library a copy of the report on research by 2004 Birds of Prey 4 the Environment Agency and Cranfield University on Parrots 17,539 bio-aerosol emissions from composting sites; what Other Birds 31,644 assessment he has made of the implications for his Department’s waste and recycling policies of the Total 49,187 findings of that research; and if he will make a statement. [284137] 2005 Birds of Prey 162 Parrots 17,838 Dan Norris: I have placed a copy of the report in Other Birds 53,898 question in the Library. Total 71,898 The research leading to the report was commissioned by the Environment Agency in order to review and assess aspects of the risk assessment of open-air composting 2006 Birds of Prey 17 facilities, in particular in relation to bioaerosols. Although Parrots 234 the work has helped to improve the Agency’s monitoring Other Birds 40 and evaluation of the risks posed by bioaerosols it did Total 291 not support a change to the current 250m risk assessment limit for the proximity of residential or commercial 2007 Birds of Prey 192 properties. As further research emerges it will be carefully Parrots 31 reviewed by DEFRA and the Environment Agency. Other Birds 67 Departmental Procurement Total 290 Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 Birds of Prey 28 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what changes Parrots 30 have been made to his Department’s (a) office Other Birds 31 equipment and (b) stationery purchasing policy in the last six months. [285311] Total 89 Dan Norris: There have been no changes to the 2009 (1 January 2009 Birds of Prey 26 Department’s (a) office equipment and (b) stationery to 30 June 2009) purchasing policy in the last six months. DEFRA’s Parrots 8 policy remains the acquisition of sustainable goods, Other Birds 186 based on best value for money. Total 220 Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal

Grand total 121,975 Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what guidance Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 the Waste and Resources Action Programme has provided to local authorities on alternate weekly waste Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for collections since its establishment. [285347] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what his estimate is of the number of (a) dog exclusion orders Dan Norris: The Waste and Resources Action and (b) dogs on leads orders introduced by local Programme published the report ‘Alternate Weekly authorities under the Clean Neighbourhoods and Collections Guidance’ in July 2007. This document Environment Act 2005; what proportion of such orders replaced a previous guidance document published in in each category have affected land classified as open 2005. access land under the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000; and how many such orders in each category Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State affect access to land of which Natural England has for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will been notified. [285605] direct the Waste and Resources Action Programme to 221W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 222W assess the effect on recycling rates of household waste information his Department holds on the subsidies of the use of wheeled refuse containers. [286528] granted by the European Commission to EU member states in each of the last five years; and what recent Dan Norris: The DEFRA funded Waste and Resources discussions he has had with his EU counterparts on the Action Programme has an ongoing programme of research criteria applied to applications for such subsidies. to assess the effectiveness of different collection systems [285572] and to provide advice to local authorities. This will include consideration of the different kerbside containers available as part of the overall collection system. Jim Fitzpatrick: The European Commission list direct aids to farmers as presented in Table 1. Producers must EC Grants and Loans comply with a number of criteria in order to qualify, with the most significant being that production is required Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for for receipt of coupled direct aids, but not decoupled Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what aids.

Table 1: EU direct aids for Budget years 2004-08 ¤million 2008 2007 2006 2005 2004

Decoupled direct aids Single Payment Scheme 28,234 28,119 14,226 0 0 Single Area Payment Scheme 2,974 2,083 1,721 1,449 0 Separate sugar payment 206 167 0 0 0 Separate fruit and vegetables payment 00000

Other direct aids Arable Crops 1,781 1,853 7,951 17,158 17,095 Beef 1,641 1,697 2,637 7,730 7,312 Sheep and Goats 314 330 907 1,837 1,471 Dairy 0 0 1,454 1,370 0 POSEI 410 81 81 185 110 Fruit and Vegetables1 104 202 255 483 595 Sugar 25 17 0 0 0 Rice 168 173 261 427 110 Olive groves 99 119 2,312 2,240 2,302 Tobacco 301 336 811 918 924 Silkworms 11000 Cotton 248 254 0 0 0 Payments for specific types of farming and quality production 435 420 199 0 0 Other (direct aids) — 761 958 75 0 Additional amounts of aid 563 434 316 0 0 Ancillary direct aids, small producers, agrimonetary aids, etc.) 00041 Recoveries 0 0 -39 -21 -12 Total 37,505 37,046 34,051 33,856 29,908 1 Includes starch potatoes and grain legumes. Source: Provisional Draft Budget 2010 and previous budgets, EC.

The UK has argued forcefully for further decoupling decoupled support from around 89 per cent. of all of aid payments from production in order to reduce direct farm payments to around 96 per cent. The payments market distortions, and the 2008 Health Check made a currently scheduled for decoupling and the relevant step in this direction, decoupling approximately a further dates are presented in Table 2. ¤3 billion of direct payments. This increases the level of

Table 2: Direct aids scheduled to be decoupled Sector Current situation When/how to be phased out

Fruit and vegetables The EU Processed Fruit and Vegetables Regime was subject to Tomatoes for processing—1 January 2012 major reform in 2007, with agreement reached on a phased approach to full decoupling: Tomatoes for processing—member states may allow a maximum four year transitional period provided that the coupled element of the payment does not exceed 50 per cent. of the corresponding component of the national ceiling Other processing aids—member states may allow a maximum Other processing aids—1 January 2013 five year transitional period until at the latest 31 December 2012, provided that after 31 December 2010, the coupled proportion of the payment does not exceed 75 per cent. of the corresponding component of the national ceiling in 2011 and 2012 respectively. 223W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 224W

Table 2: Direct aids scheduled to be decoupled Sector Current situation When/how to be phased out

Sugar There are no direct aids in the sugar sector, but there is a The transitional aid is due to end in 2010 transitional fund to help the sugar sector restructure. There are also separate sugar payments as part of the Single Payment Scheme.

Tobacco Progressive reduction in coupled support from 2006 to 2010. 2010

Crops Member states may retain partial coupled payments in: Full decoupling from 2010 and integration into Single Payment Scheme (SPS) Arable Crops Payments (up to 25 per cent.) Durum Wheat Quality Supplement (up to 40 per cent.) Hops (up to 25 per cent.)

Olive oil Aid for olive groves could remain up to 40 per cent. coupled. Full decoupling in 2010 and integration in SPS

Livestock Member states may retain coupled payments in: Slaughter premium for young animals, slaughter premium for adult animals and Special beef premium: Full decoupling from 2012 onwards and integration into SPS. No change in suckler cow and sheep and goatmeat. Suckler Cow Premium (up to 100 per cent.) Special beef premium (up to 75 per cent.), Slaughter Premium (up to 40 per cent. for adults and 100 per cent. for calves) Sheep and Goats (up to 50 per cent.).

Flax and Hemp Option of 25 per cent. partial coupling as arable crops area Decouple long fibre flax processing aid and payment. Short fibre flax to be phased out in 2008-09. Long integrate into SPS from 2012. fibre flax to be increased to ¤40/tonne in 2009-10.

Dried Fodder Retain processing aid (per tonne, uniform for dehydrated and Decouple processing aid and integrate into SPS in dried fodder) 2012

Starch potato Aid for starch producers (60 per cent. of pre-2003 level) paid Decouple aid to growers and integrate into SPS per tonne of starch delivered. A transformation aid is granted from 2012 at the latest; decouple processing aid to the manufacturers per tonne of potato starch with and integrate into SPS in 2012 guaranteed minimum prices within the quota limit. Finally, production refunds for starch are granted when using starch for the production of certain goods.

Energy crop premium Aid of EUR 45 per hectare for energy crops for the production Abolish in 2010 of biofuels and electric and thermal energy produced from biomass

Durum Wheat Aid of EUR 40 per hectare, granted subject to the use of Full decoupling and integration into SPS in 2010. certain quantities of certified seeds of varieties recognised as being of high quality for the production of semolina or pasta.

Protein crops Aid of EUR 55.57 per hectare of protein crops (peas, field Decouple and integrate into SPS in 2012 at the beans, lupins). latest.

Specific payment for rice Aid per hectare, the value set according to the yields in the Decouple and integrate into SPS in 2012 at the member states concerned latest.

Nuts Aid per hectare granted to farmers producing nuts, with a Decouple and integrate into SPS in 2012 at the possibility of granting additional national aid. latest.

It is a condition of all direct payments that claimants should be phased out completely. Instead, payments to both keep their land in ‘good agricultural and environmental farmers should be targeted at delivering public benefits, condition’ (GAEC), as defined by member states in including environmental benefits, through a re-shaped accordance with a set EU framework, and comply with Pillar 2. 18 statutory management requirements (existing EU regulatory environmental, public, animal and plant health Eggs: Labelling and animal welfare requirements). The UK “Vision for the Common Agricultural Policy Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for (CAP)” is clear that by 2015 to 2020, CAP Pillar 1 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will take 225W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 226W steps to ensure that eggs are labelled clearly to indicate paid in bonuses to (a) directors, (b) senior managers, the method by which the chickens which produced the (c) specialist and delivery managers and (d) executive eggs are farmed. [285584] support and administration staff in the Environment Agency in each of the last five years. [285539] Jim Fitzpatrick: All eggs sold at retail and to catering (i.e. class A eggs) must already be labelled with the method of production and the eggs must be stamped on their shells with a code which must be explained on the Jim Fitzpatrick: The following table shows performance- labelling. related pay paid by the Environment Agency over the This code identifies the method of production, country last five years. of origin and the establishment. The code will start with a number to distinguish production method, this should These payments are awarded to reflect success for be ‘0’ = Organic, ‘1’ = Free Range, ‘2’ = Barn, ‘3’ = Eggs performance across a range of objectives which are set from Caged Hens. This will be followed by two letters and agreed with Government. The Environment Agency’s denoting country of origin (e.g. ‘UK’) followed by a annual report details its overall performance against its code (numbers sometimes with letters) identifying the objectives and gives details of directors’ remuneration, registered production site. including performance-related pay. Environment Agency: Pay These payments are only made to directors and senior Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for managers. The Environment Agency currently has 155 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much was senior managers and directors.

Total value of performance-related pay over last five years £ 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

Director (9) 92,178 95,883 101,970 113,715 127,396 Senior Manager (av. 133) 655,546 739,625 843,141 870,264 1,222,480 Manager n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Specialist n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Executive Support and Administration Staff n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a Total 747,724 835,508 945,112 983,979 1,349,876

The average percentage paid as performance-related navigation, (v) process industry regulation, (vi) pay per eligible employee over the last five years has radioactive substances, (vii) waste and (viii) water been 10 per cent. For 2008-09, the Environment Agency quality as recorded in the National Enforcement has decided to cap performance-related pay in line with Database in each year since 1997. [286467] civil service practice. Huw Irranca-Davies [holding answer 13 July 2009]: Environment Protection: Prosecutions The table shows the number of convictions (1) and custodial sentences (2) for environmental offences recorded Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for in the National Enforcement Database in each financial Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many year from 1999 to 2008. prosecutions resulted in (a) convictions and (b) The national enforcement database came online in custodial sentences for offences related to (i) water April 1999. Data are therefore not available for 1997, resources, (ii) flood defences, (iii) fisheries, (iv) 1998 and the first three months of 1999.

Process Flood industry Radioactive Water Water Fisheries1 defence Navigation regulation substances Waste quality resources

1999 (April-December) Convictions1436331422010 Custodial sentences 0 0000500

2000

Convictions 29 1 6 12 3 409 229 21 Custodial sentences 0 0000500

2001

Convictions 22 2 3 8 11 472 223 10 Custodial sentences 0 00001100

2002

Convictions 50 1 14 3 1 516 232 11 227W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 228W

Process Flood industry Radioactive Water Water Fisheries1 defence Navigation regulation substances Waste quality resources

Custodial sentences 0 0000500

2003 Convictions 44 5 34 5 3 424 170 6 Custodial sentences 0 0000700

2004 Convictions 40 9 38 1 2 434 184 19 Custodial sentences 0 0000610

2005 Convictions 78 8 35 4 1 507 227 10 Custodial sentences 0 0000500

2006 Convictions 51 4 37 1 1 427 190 5 Custodial sentences 0 00001000

2007 Convictions 74 6 31 0 0 486 184 17 Custodial sentences 0 0000600

2008 Convictions 72 8 33 1 3 444 138 9 Custodial sentences 0 0000600 1 Figures given for fisheries cover only freshwater/inland fisheries and non-rod and line fishing offences.

Fluoride: Drinking Water Jim Fitzpatrick: DEFRA has not provided ongoing financial support to RSPCA for its Freedom Foods Mr. Crausby: To ask the Secretary of State for initiative but did award a grant of £139,000 in February Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to the 2002 under the Agriculture Development Scheme to answer of 17 June 2009, Official Report, column 380W, support the development of the scheme. on fluoride: drinking water, what assessment the Drinking Water Inspectorate made of the adequacy of Food: Prices the remedial action taken by Hartlepool Water following the addition of excessive levels of fluoride to Mr. Hoyle: To ask the Secretary of State for the water supply in 2000. [285954] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what the average farm gate price of lamb was in the most recent period Huw Irranca-Davies: The failure of a sample taken by for which figures are available; and if he will make a Hartlepool Water to meet the prescribed standard for statement. [285067] fluoride arose in 2004 when two boreholes containing water having naturally occurring fluoride in excess of Jim Fitzpatrick: In June 2009 the average farm gate the standard were pumped simultaneously. This was not price of UK lambs was 383 pence per kilogram deadweight. a situation where fluoride was being added to the water. This was 25 pence per kilogram higher than the average Normally water from these boreholes would have been for June 2008. Monthly average prices from January blended with water from other boreholes with a lower 2008 onwards are shown in the following table. The natural fluoride concentration. The Inspectorate was seasonal nature of lamb prices can been seen in the satisfied that the change in pumping arrangements put 2008 figures. in place by the company after the incident was effective Average UK farm gate lamb price (pence per kilogram deadweight) in preventing a recurrence of excessive levels of fluoride. 2008 2009 Since this time, all further tests by Hartlepool Water for fluoride have met the required standard. January 226 335 February 265 368 March 288 372 Food: Labelling April 329 415 May 337 415 Ms Keeble: To ask the Secretary of State for June 358 383 Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether his July 296 — Department provides (a) financial and (b) other August 280 — support to the RSPCA in respect of its Freedom Food September 290 — Initiative. [284313] October 276 — 229W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 230W

Average UK farm gate lamb price (pence per kilogram deadweight) Natural England to avoid creating situations where 2008 2009 compensation would be required and will mean that November 268 — any impacts on business and property will be minimised. December 280 — The Bill was amended during its passage through the Source: House of Lords to introduce a procedure for an appointed AHDB Meat Services (EU Market Report, sheep meat reference prices). person to review objections to a proposal in a report by Futuresource Conference Natural England. This will provide additional safeguards for landowners and occupiers. Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Natural England will also consult with land owners Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will place in when deciding any conditions or restrictions on access, the Library a copy of the presentation and handouts for example for land management purposes. Natural delivered by representatives of (a) the Environment England will also be able to revisit decisions about Agency, (b) Waste and Resources Action Programme alignment and the need for restrictions in the light of and (c) his Department on (i) municipal waste issues experience of actual impacts or changes to the situation. and policy, (ii) household waste prevention and (iii) principles of a good collection service at the Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Futuresource Conference held in London between 9 to Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to his 11 June 2009. [284930] contribution of 23 June 2009, Official Report, column 700, on the Marine and Coastal Access Bill [Lords], Dan Norris: I am arranging for copies of the presentations what criteria he plans to use in deciding whether to and the handout delivered at the Futuresource Conference approve changes to terms and conditions for staff of by representatives of the Waste and Resources Action the Marine and Fisheries Agency. [284775] Programme and DEFRA to be placed in the Library of the House. The Chairman of the Environment Agency Huw Irranca-Davies: Staff transferring to the Marine delivered his speech from bullet points and as such, Management Organisation from the Marine and Fisheries there is no copy of his presentation. Agency will do so under the Cabinet Office Statement Landfill of Practice, following the principles contained in the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Regulations 2006. There will be no detriment to them in for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs pursuant to relation to pay or terms and conditions of employment the answer to the hon. Member for Meriden of at the point of transfer. Any future changes to terms 12 February 2009, Official Report, column 2152W, on and conditions would only happen following proper the Landfill Allowance Trading Scheme, if he will consultation with the relevant trade unions and would introduce a mechanism to determine the amount of be on the condition that there would not be any detriment waste diverted by home composting in order to allow to their current terms and conditions. such composting to count towards the landfill allowance trading scheme. [286520] Marine and Fisheries Agency: Finance

Dan Norris: DEFRA is working with the Environment Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Agency and the DEFRA funded Waste and Resources Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what estimate he Action Programme (WRAP) to consider whether a has made of the monthly (a) staffing, (b) travel and robust mechanism for calculating the amount of waste (c) accommodation costs for the operation of the diverted by home composting can be developed. This Marine and Fisheries Agency offices in London and work is ongoing. Tyneside. [284777] In response to the operational review of the Landfill Allowance Trading Scheme, DEFRA agreed to review Huw Irranca-Davies: Broad estimates of the costs of again the position of home composting in relation to a coastal location as opposed to a London headquarters the scheme after the first target year in 2010. formed part of the business case for relocation. Cost Marine and Coastal Access Bill savings are not the primary driver for locating the Marine and Fisheries Agency at a coastal location. However, operating in Tyneside as opposed to London Mr. Tyrie: To ask the Secretary of State for will offer savings on staff costs, by virtue of paying Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he has national rather than London rates for new staff recruited made an estimate of the likely amount of there, and accommodation costs by virtue of lower compensation payable if the provisions of Part 9 of the rental costs outside London. Travel costs are not expected Marine and Coastal Access Bill relating to the English to differ significantly. coastal route were given effect under existing legislation. [284632] Marine Management Organisation Huw Irranca-Davies: There are no provisions in the Marine and Coastal Access Bill to pay compensation. Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for The Bill requires Natural England and the Secretary of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs which State to aim to strike a fair balance between the interests organisations proposed that the Marine Management of landowners and the interests of the general public. Organisation should be a non-departmental public The careful and considered identification of the route body in their responses to his Department’s in consultation with landowners and others will allow consultation on the creation of that body. [284776] 231W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 232W

Huw Irranca-Davies: The Marine Bill consultation in Rats: Greater London 2006 set out options for the status of the Marine Management Organisation. The ’Summary of Responses’ Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for to that consultation, which is available on the departmental Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to website, states that only a few responses made specific the answer to the hon. Member for Romford of comments on the status that would be appropriate for 4 November 2008, Official Report, column 399W, on the Marine Management Organisation. However, a large rats: Greater London, whether the further report on number of responses took the general opportunity to rodent presence in domestic premises has been insist that the Marine Management Organisation should completed. [286694] be neutral and independent from Government. Dan Norris: The latest report on rodent presence in Careful consideration was given to the most appropriate domestic properties as revealed by the English House status for the MMO, and responses to that consultation Condition Survey data for 2002-03 and 2003-04 is available were taken into account. Final agreement on non- on DEFRA’s website. The next report covering the departmental public body status for the MMO was period up to 2006 should be available this year, although reached at a cross-departmental meeting in January at present there is no set date for publication. 2007. Non-departmental public body status was considered Reptiles: Imports to be the most appropriate given the functions that the Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Marine Management Organisation is designed to deliver, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many together with the fact that those services will be delivered reptiles of each species (a) listed and (b) not listed by the Marine Management Organisation on behalf of under the Convention on International Trade in a number of Government Departments. Endangered Species were recorded as being imported into the EU on the Trade Control and Expert System Pollution: Fines database in each year since 2000. [284507]

Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for Huw Irranca-Davies: We do not have access to EU-wide Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how much has statistics which would enable us to answer this question. been levied in fines by the Environment Agency against Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for (a) companies, (b) local authorities and (c) Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many individuals with regard to incidences of each type of reptiles of each species (a) listed and (b) not listed pollution (i) in total and (ii) in each region in each year under the Convention on International Trade in since 1997; and what assessment he has made of the Endangered Species were recorded on the Trade effectiveness of fines so levied in preventing further Control and Expert System as being imported into the incidences of pollution by (A) those upon whom such UK from (i) EU member states and (ii) other countries fines have been levied and (B) others; and if he will in each year since 2000. [284508] make a statement. [286534] Huw Irranca-Davies: The information available regarding Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 13 July 2009]: This numbers of reptiles in each species in each category matter falls within the remit of the Environment Agency; listed has been placed in the Libraries of the House. the Health and Safety Executive does not levy pollution- related fines. Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs how many The relevant Environment Agency national enforcement reptiles were seized by HM Revenue and Customs database reports have been placed in the Library of the under the Convention on International Trade in House. The national enforcement database came online Endangered Species in each year since 2000. [284509] in April 1999. Data are therefore not available for 1997, 1998 and the first three months of 1999. Mr. Woolas: I have been asked to reply. The national enforcement database has categories for The following table provides data, from HM Revenue individuals and companies, but local authorities are and Customs central records. classified with “other legal entities”. The reports provided here titled “other” therefore include local authorities Reptiles Number of specimens seized along with other non-commercial corporate entities. 2005-06 1,335 The Environment Agency will prosecute a serious 2006-07 1,311 pollution offence only when prosecution is considered 2007-08 347 to be in the public interest. The level of fine imposed is a matter for the sentencing court. All aggravating and These reptiles were seized using customs enforcement mitigating factors and the defendant’s ability to pay will powers in relation to live animals listed as endangered be taken into account. species under Council Regulation (EC) No 338/97 on Prosecution is only one of a number of interventions the protection of species of wild fauna and flora. that the Environment Agency employs and other For the year’s 2000 to 2004-05 information on all enforcement tools will also have some effect. The CITES specimens seized by the former HM Customs Environment Agency publishes an annual Spotlight and Excise can be found on the DEFRA website at: report which provides the relevant enforcement action http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-countryside/trade-crime/ taken. The 2008 report can be viewed at: cites/action-uk.htm#enforcement http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/pdf/ Further breakdown of the 2000 to 2004-05 figures GEHO0708BOFX-E-E.pdf?lang=_e can be achieved only at a disproportionate cost. 233W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 234W

Rural Areas: Employment Sustainable Development

John Mann: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what discussions Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what steps his he has had with the Youth Hostel Association on the Department has taken in relation to its sustainable effectiveness of its steps taken with his Department to consumption and production priority area for action; increase levels of (a) rural employment and (b) access and if he will make a statement. [285814] to the countryside. [286723] Huw Irranca-Davies: I have had no such discussions Dan Norris: DEFRA’s work in this priority area aims with the Youth Hostel Association but would be willing to make production and consumption patterns associated to consider doing so should they request a meeting. with the UK economy compatible with sustainable living. Action is being taken to minimise greenhouse School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme gas emissions and inputs of non-renewable resources, energy and water. Mr. Todd: To ask the Secretary of State for DEFRA and its partners are working with businesses, Environment, Food and Rural Affairs whether he plans consumers and the public sector to help them understand to bring forward proposals for a free fruit scheme and reduce their impacts. Overall, this work aims to under the provisions of EC Commission Regulation create better products and services, with lower environmental No. 288/2009. [283339] impacts across their lifecycle, which minimise waste and Gillian Merron: I have been asked to reply. the use of landfill. DEFRA is working to achieve this in three key ways: There are a number of pilots and evaluation projects currently under way that are looking at the school fruit Encouraging best practice through the provision of tools, guidance, and information to help businesses and consumers and vegetable scheme and wider on free school meals in choose the most sustainable behaviours. For example, we are England. A decision will be made whether to bring working with industry to pilot ten roadmaps to improve the forward proposals once the results have been received sustainability of products that have significant environmental and considered. and/or social impacts. Leading by example by setting policies and ensuring that the Soil Government act in a sustainable way. Setting standards to ensure that minimum requirements are Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for implemented in the design, production, use and disposal of Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent particular products. This includes raising the sustainability of discussions he has had with the Environment Agency energy-using products, including through EU minimum standards. on soil value guidelines; and if he will make a The minimum standards agreed so far are expected to save statement. [285865] £900 million per year from people’s energy bills and help save around 7Mt CO2 per annum by 2020. Huw Irranca-Davies: DEFRA officials have been in An important aspect of more sustainable consumption regular contact with the Environment Agency (EA) and production is the impact of products at their end of regarding the publication of new soil guideline values. life as waste. Following the Waste Strategy for England The EA is working closely with partners including the 2007, DEFRA is working to: Health Protection Agency and the Food Standards secure better integration of treatment for municipal and non- Agency to produce new soil guideline values for a range municipal waste; of the most common contaminants. Values for the first eight contaminants were published earlier this year. The secure the investment in infrastructure needed to divert waste from landfill and for the management of hazardous waste; and EA has stated that it will publish the remaining values as they are developed. meet and exceed the Landfill Directive diversion targets for biodegradable municipal waste in 2010, 2013 and 2020. Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Further information about DEFRA’s work in this Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when his priority area can be found in the Departmental Report Department plans to publish the Soil Guideline Value which is available on DEFRA’s website. and Toxicological reports for (a) naphthalene, (b) benzo(a)pyrene and (c) carbon fractions (i) aromatic Waste Disposal: Fees and Charges C12-C16 and (ii) aromatic C21-C35. [285879]

Dan Norris: The Environment Agency’s (EA) plans Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for to publish Soil Guideline Values (SGV) and Toxicological Environment, Food and Rural Affairs with reference to (TOX) reports for naphthalene and benzo(a)pyrene have the answer of 11 November 2008, Official Report, been delayed. I am informed that the EA is working on column 1006W, on domestic wastes, which local these reports with other Government agencies to resolve authorities have sought the advice of the Waste and some outstanding technical issues, and intends to publish Resources Action Programme on available options for them as soon as possible. waste incentive schemes in the last 12 months. [285234] The EA has, at present, no plans to publish SGV or TOX reports for carbon fractions (i) aromatic C12-C16 Dan Norris: WRAP has not provided specific advice and (ii) aromatic C21-C35. Its approach for these on operating a waste charging scheme to individual hydrocarbons was published in 2005 and is available on authorities within the last 12 months. They have dealt the EA website at: with a number of general enquiries from local authority www.environment-agency.gov.uk officers and members, seeking clarification on the legislation 235W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 236W and draft guidelines for the Waste Incentive Programme, Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales but these did not result in an application being developed how many (a) attempts and (b) successful attempts for a pilot scheme. were made to gain unauthorised access to each (i) Water Charges database and (ii) ICT system run by his Department in each of the last five years; and if he will make a Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for statement. [286539] Environment, Food and Rural Affairs what recent discussions he has had with (a) water companies, (b) Mr. Hain: As a small Department, the Wales Office consumer groups and (c) others on simplifying the does not run its own ICT systems, instead using services format of domestic water bills. [284603] provided by the Ministry of Justice. My Department runs two databases, which have not suffered from attempts Huw Irranca-Davies: My Department has held no to gain unauthorised access during the last five years. recent discussions with water companies, consumer groups or others on simplifying the format of domestic water Departmental Electronic Equipment rates bills. However, the Independent Walker Review of charging for household water and sewerage services is Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales looking at this, among other issues, and published an how many (a) photocopiers, (b) scanning devices and interim report on 29 June. (c) fax machines, excluding multi-function devices, there are in his Department; how many there were in each of the last three years; and if he will make a WALES statement. [286163] Departmental Buildings Mr. Hain: The number of photocopiers, scanning devices and fax machines, excluding multi-function devices, Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales currently used in the Wales Office and over the past how much in (a) rent, (b) service charges and (c) three years are given in the table: business rates has been paid in respect of each of the premises occupied by his Department in each year Photocopiers Scanning devices Fax machines since 2005. [284861] Current 6 2 16 Mr. Hain: My Department occupies two buildings, 2008-09 7 2 16 one in London and the other in Cardiff. My Department 2007-08 7 2 16 has paid the following for each building in: 2006-07 7 2 16 (a & b) Rent and Service Charges Departmental Internet The London office is owned by the Wales Office and no rent or service charges are payable. The service Mr. Crabb: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales charges are not recorded separately from the rent and what the maintenance and development costs of his could be obtained only at a disproportionate cost. Department’s website were in each year since 2005. Cardiff Office (£) [285411]

2005-06 146,272.92 Mr. Hain: My Department has spent the following on 2006-07 163,078.46 maintaining and developing our website: 2007-08 178,601.80 2008-09 184,438.24 £

2005-06 5,875.00 (c) Business Rates 2006-07 6,227.50 2007-08 27,581.96 London Office (£) Cardiff Office (£) 2008-09 6,054.55

2005-06 48,108.00 39,784.50 The 2007-08 figure includes the cost of designing and 2006-07 48,108.00 40,608.00 establishing the new Wales Office website in 2007-08 2007-08 50,616.00 42,112.00 and the provision of a new server. 2008-09 52,668.00 43,431.20 Departmental Data Protection ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Wales what categories of personal information on members Departmental Press: Subscriptions of the public will be held on each of his Department’s and its agency’s databases expected to become Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for operational in the next five years; what estimate he has Energy and Climate Change to which (a) magazines, made of the likely number of individuals’ details each (b) journals and (c) newspapers his Department such database will hold when fully operational; and if subscribes; and what the cost of such subscriptions has he will make a statement. [286499] been in each of the last three years. [280766] Mr. Hain: The Wales Office has no plans for databases Joan Ruddock: Since the Department’s formation in holding personal information on members of the public October 2008, Ministers and the Communications director to become operational within the next five years. have received the following publications: 237W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 238W

Ministers Number Monday to Friday: 4 x Financial Times,3xThe Times,3x Telegraph,4xIndependent,4xGuardian 2xMail,2xExpress,3x HEO 2 The Sun,3xThe Mirror,2xThe Star,4xEvening Standard and EO 1 weekly Observer, Spectator,2xEconomist, New Scientist. The total cost to the Department as of 31 May 2009 was £4,270.05. In addition the project team has recently recruited a Communications short-term secondee. Monday to Saturday: Financial Times, Times, Telegraph, Independent, Guardian, Mail, Express, Sun, Mirror, Star and Warm Front Scheme: Pensioners weekly Sunday Times, Sunday Telegraph, Independent on Sunday, Observer, Mail on Sunday, Sunday Express, News of the World, Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for People, Sunday Mirror, Daily Star Sunday, The Economist, Spectator, Energy and Climate Change how many applicants for a PR Week, Private Eye, New Statesman. The total cost to the Warm Front grant aged (a) under 60 years old and (b) Department as of 31 May 2009 was £2,025.73. 60 years old and over who were informed that they The Department does not keep central records of all would need to pay a contribution (i) took up the grant the remaining publications that it receives and this and (ii) did not proceed with their applications in information could be provided only at disproportionate 2008-09. [285080] cost. Mr. Kidney: The following table shows the requested Environment Protection: Education information:

Nadine Dorries: To ask the Secretary of State for Households asked to Energy and Climate Change how much funding his contribute Department has allocated towards the development of Scheme environmental education initiatives in (a) Mid year Assisted Did not Bedfordshire constituency and (b) the East of England 2008-09 households Number Percentage Paid proceed since it was established; and if he will make a Under 102,317 19,693 19.2 17,379 2,314 statement. [278844] 60s Over 60s 133,277 29,571 22.2 26,031 3,540 Ms Diana R. Johnson: I have been asked to reply. Total 235,594 49,264 20.9 43,410 5,854 The Department does not allocate funding directly to support environmental education initiatives in specific The grant maxima for the period reported on were areas. Environmental education is one of the key concepts £2,700 or £4,000 where an oil measure was required. On for the study of geography in the new secondary curriculum 23 April 2009 we announced our intention to raise the and the Action Plan for Geography supports this by grant maxima to £3,500 or £6,000 for oil and other low providing professional development opportunities for carbon and renewable heating measures. teachers in the regions to help them embed sustainable development and environmental education in their classroom practice. We are also working with stakeholders, PRIME MINISTER including the Government Office East of England and local authorities, to engage and support schools work Members: Surveillance towards the DCSF’s Sustainable Schools strategy which aims for all schools to be sustainable by 2020. The Mr. Paul Goodman: To ask the Prime Minister strategy is guided by a commitment to care for the whether the application of the Wilson Doctrine on environment both locally and nationally and a national interception of hon. Members’ telephone calls has been framework has been established to help schools identify amended since September 2007; and if he will make a areas on which they can focus to develop their sustainability statement. [286618] practices. The Prime Minister: No. I refer the hon. Member to Fuel Poverty the answer given by my right hon. Friend the Minister for Policing, Crime and Counter-Terrorism (Mr. Hanson) Charles Hendry: To ask the Secretary of State for to my hon. Friend the Member for Islington, South and Energy and Climate Change how many staff in his Finsbury (Emily Thornberry) on 9 July 2009, Official Department are working on the review of its strategy Report, columns 1133-4. for tackling fuel poverty. [285094] Mr. Kidney: DECC is currently undertaking a review of its fuel poverty policies. Initial findings of this review OLYMPICS are expected in the summer of 2009. Until the review Olympic Games 2012: Employment has delivered its findings it would be inappropriate to consider whether to revise the Government’s Fuel Poverty Alistair Burt: To ask the Minister for the Olympics Strategy. what percentage of the construction workers at the The Fuel Poverty Review project team currently consists Olympic Park are residents of the London Borough of of the following officials by pay band: (a) Hackney, (b) Newham, (c) Tower Hamlets, (d) Waltham Forest and (e) Greenwich. [285108] Number Tessa Jowell: The latest figures published by the SCS 1 Olympic Delivery Authority (ODA) in April 2009 showed Grade 7 4 that at that time there were 4,101 people working on the 239W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 240W

Olympic Park, of which 20 per cent. (826) stated that Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Young People they are a resident in the five host boroughs. This equates to approximately one in five individuals working Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for the on the Olympic site. Home Department pursuant to the answer of 18 June The table provides a snap shot of people from each of 2009, Official Report, column 454W, on anti-social the host boroughs working on site as at April 2009. behaviour orders: young people, who is responsible for monitoring the effects of media reporting on anti- Representation social behaviour orders imposed on children between Contractor of contractor workforce workforce BAME the ages of 10 and 17 years on levels of compliance Borough number (percentage) (percentage) with such orders. [285322]

Hackney 104 3 32 Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office has issued Newham 308 8 27 guidance on publicising antisocial behaviour orders Tower Hamlets 101 2 28 (ASBOs) which emphasises that a case by case approach Waltham Forest 187 5 25 should be adopted and that a test should be applied Greenwich 126 3 34 which balances the purpose of publicity against the The ODA publishes its employment and skills statistics impact it will have on the individual involved, especially on a quarterly basis and will be releasing the next set of in cases involving young people. It is up to the applicant quarterly figures later this month, in the publications agency to determine the outcome of this test and determine sections of the London 2012 website. what publicity is appropriate and proportionate. In addition courts retain the right to impose reporting Olympic Games 2012: Gun Sports restrictions where they believe it necessary to do so. ASBO publicity does not always have to be negative. Gordon Banks: To ask the Minister for the Olympics In cases where ASBOs have worked and perpetrators if she will publish all reports relevant to the have turned their lives around, the media may wish to consideration of the National Shooting Centre, Bisley follow up ASBO successes with good news stories. as a location for target shooting at the London 2012 Olympics. [280694] Crime: Detection Rates

Tessa Jowell [holding answer 18 June 2009]: A redacted Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the summary version of the KPMG report that informed Home Department what the crime detection rate for the Olympic Board’s decision was published and placed North Yorkshire police force was in each year since in the House Library.Because of the continuing commercial 2002-03. [285708] sensitivity of information contained within the report, I am unable to publish a full copy at this time. Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested has The London Organising Committee of the Olympic been given in the following table. Games and Paralympic Games and the Olympic Delivery From 1 April 2007 the rules governing recording of Authority have also held several briefing sessions with a non-sanction detections were revised to reduce the scope number of MPs and Peers and are happy to undertake within which they can be claimed to a very small limited further meetings to explain the rationale behind the set of circumstances. This has significantly reduced the Olympic Board’s decision as are the British Olympic number of non-sanction detections which has been Association and British Shooting. British Shooting has reflected in the overall detection rates in England and accepted that Bisley is not a viable option for the 2012 Wales. events and will work with London 2012 on legacy for Detection rates are a ratio of crime detected in a the sport. period to crimes recorded in a period. They are not based on tracking whether individual crimes recorded in a period have eventually been detected. HOME DEPARTMENT Detection rates for offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire Detection rate (percentage)

Antisocial Behaviour 2002-03 26 2003-04 28 Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for the 2004-05 35 Home Department what funding has been provided 2005-06 35 from the public purse to parish councils to tackle 2006-07 33 anti-social behaviour in the last 12 months. [285390] 2007-08 33 Mr. Alan Campbell: The Home Office does not provide direct funding to parish councils to tackle antisocial Crime: Yorkshire behaviour. Funding to tackle antisocial behaviour now forms part of the general Area Based Grant (ABG) Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the paid by the Department of Communities and Local Home Department how many crimes were reported in Government to Unitary and upper tier authorities. It is York in each of the last four years. [285711] for local partnerships to agree how the grants received should be allocated against locally determined priorities, Mr. Alan Campbell: The information requested is including tackling antisocial behaviour. given in the table. 241W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 242W

Offences recorded by the police in York Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and York, 1996 and Number 1997 Number 2004-05 23,080 Area and offence 1996 1997 2005-06 22,784 2006-07 20,935 York 2007-08 19,055 Violence against the n/a n/a person Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for the Total recorded crime n/a n/a Home Department how many (a) violent crimes and n/a = Not available. (b) crimes were recorded in (i) North Yorkshire and (ii) Table 2: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and York, 1998-99 to City of York in each year since 1996-97. [285712] 2001-021, 2 Number Mr. Alan Campbell: The available information is given Area and offence 1998-99 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 in the tables. North Yorkshire A number of changes have been made to recorded Violence against 4,827 5,101 4,898 5,624 crime in response to suggestions in the two reviews of the person crime statistics. One such change is that the term ’violent Total recorded 55,309 53,554 51,551 59,125 crime’ is no longer used and we now provide figures for crime violence against the person. Table 1: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and York, 1996 and York 1997 Violence against n/a 1,650 1,504 1,656 Number the person Area and offence 1996 1997 Total recorded n/a n/a 19,291 22,890 crime North Yorkshire n/a = Not available Violence against the 2,333 2,425 1 The coverage was extended and counting rules revised from 1998-99. Figures person from that date are not directly comparable with those for 1997. 2 Total recorded crime 56,919 50,252 The data in this table are prior to the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for later years.

Table 3: Offences recorded by the police in North Yorkshire and York, 2002-03 to 2007-081 Number Area and offence 2002-03 2003-04 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08

North Yorkshire Violence against the person 8,108 9,610 12,045 11,473 10,087 9,538 Total recorded crime 67,239 71,473 61,615 58,850 54,526 50,265

York Violence against the person 2,575 3,459 4,000 3,810 3,285 3,219 Total recorded crime 25,630 29,347 23,080 22,784 20,935 19,055 1 The data in this table take account of the introduction of the National Crime Recording Standard in April 2002. These figures are not directly comparable with those for earlier years.

Domestic Violence The figures for the last five years for Southend and the rest of Essex are shown in the following table. Margaret Moran: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what estimate he has made of Actual finish dates changes in levels of reported domestic violence in each Location 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 police force area since January 2008; and if he will make a statement. [282200] Southend 043300 Rest of 11 15 16 20 15 10 Mr. Alan Campbell: There were 674,756 domestic Essex violence incidents reported in 2007-08. Data for 2008-09 are not yet available. Human Trafficking Forensic Science Service: Essex Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what funding the Government has Home Department on how many occasions staff of the allocated for measures to tackle human trafficking in Forensic Science Service have attended the scene of a (a) the UK and (b) the North East in each year since violent crime in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in each 1997. [285324] of the last five years. [285728] Mr. Alan Campbell: Funding for the fight against Mr. Alan Campbell: The Forensic Science Service are human trafficking is not provided on a regional basis as unable to determine those occasions when they have the crime is one that affects all parts of the country and attended the scene of a violent crime in Castle Point. our response therefore has to be national and strategic These are included here within the figures for Southend. in nature. 243W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 244W

We have provided the UK Human Trafficking Centre Migrant Workers with £5.7 million over period 2006 to the end of the current financial year. Damian Green: To ask the Secretary of State for the Additionally, we fund the Serious Organised Crime Home Department how much funding his Department Agency to the tune of £400 million per annum. SOCA has allocated in respect of (a) translation services and has organised immigration crime, including human (b) advertising in job centres in respect of schemes to trafficking as its second highest priority. encourage migrant workers to return home. [271366] From 2004 to the start of the current financial year Mr. Woolas: The Department does not operate any we had given £5.8 million to Eaves Housing for Women schemes to encourage migrant workers to return home. to manage the support provisions for adult female It follows that the Department has allocated no funding victims of trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation. to date in respect of (a) translation services and (b) This has been further supported by a further £3.7 million advertising in job centres in respect of such schemes. over the next two financial years to Eaves Housing to continue these services on a wider geographical basis. Police: Disciplinary Proceedings Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for the Mr. Steen: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what disciplinary procedures apply Home Department what funds his Department has in relation to (a) police officers, (b) police community allocated to the Metropolitan Police’s human support officers and (c) civilian police staff who are trafficking team for (a) 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; what convicted of a criminal offence. [285792] recent discussions he has had with the Metropolitan Police on (i) funding for and (ii) staff levels in the Alan Johnson: Discipline for police officers and staff human trafficking team; and if he will make a convicted of a criminal offence is a matter for the chief statement. [280406] officer of the force concerned. They would be dealt with under separate procedures. Mr. Alan Campbell [holding answer 17 June 2009]: Police officers are subject to disciplinary procedures Following negotiations with the Metropolitan Police, set out in the Police (Conduct) Regulations 2008 (SI 2008 the Home Office agreed on an exceptional basis to 2864). In cases where the chief officer has determined provide an additional £435,000 for the current financial that the conduct of an officer or police staff member year. amounts to gross misconduct, then the officer or police Human trafficking is core police business. However, staff member may be dismissed from the service. There this money was granted in consideration of the fact that are alternative outcomes of a written warning or a final the Met, unlike the other forces, could not mainstream written warning. this work by the end of the last financial year and on Police community support officers and civilian police the clear understanding that all anti-human trafficking staff are not subject to police regulations, but are subject work within the Met would be met from within their to procedures based on the terms and conditions of existing budget from 1 April 2010 onwards. The staffing their employment with the force concerned. levels are a matter for the Commissioner. The Metropolitan Police has developed a good relationship with the UK Police: Protective Clothing Human Trafficking Centre, which is the acknowledged centre of expertise on human trafficking issues and was Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for the established to co-ordinate the law enforcement response Home Department if he will bring forward legislative to this crime. proposals to require chief constables to issue stab- proof vests to police community support officers. [285875]

Identity Cards: Greater Manchester Mr. Hanson: There are no plans to bring forward legislation in this area at the present time. Chris Grayling: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Harwich of 20 May 2009, Official Report, CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT column 1463W, on identity cards: Greater Manchester, what national implementation strategy his Department Cultural Heritage: Wiltshire will follow for the National Identity Service should take-up in the Manchester pilot be low. [279614] Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport how many people visited (a) Stonehenge, (b) Old Sarum and (c) Old Wardour Alan Johnson: We intend that lessons learned from Castle in (i) 2000, (ii) 2005 and (iii) 2008. [286035] the launch of identity cards to volunteers in Manchester will inform our subsequent delivery strategy. Barbara Follett: Stonehenge, Old Sarum Castle and The identity card roll out included Foreign National Wardour Castle are properties managed by English Identity Cards, Critical Workers Identity Cards, Voluntary Heritage. The information set out in the following table Identity Cards (commensurate with EU Member State has been provided by English Heritage. The table shows Identity Cards) and the establishment of an identity English Heritage’s figures for the number of visitors to register to supplement and eventually replace existing Stonehenge, Old Sarum Castle and Wardour Castle in identity registers. The lessons learned from Manchester financial years 2000-01, 2005-06 and 2008-09. The will feed into this roll out. information is not recorded by calendar year. 245W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 246W

Old Sarum Old Wardour Database Operational Stonehenge Castle Castle Finance February 2006 2000-01 799,742 75,921 19,863 Consultation—Audiovisual Media Services October 2008 2005-06 834,318 48,637 26,470 Consultation—BBC Charter Review January 2004 2008-09 890,438 50,839 25,100 Consultation—BBC White Paper May 2006 Consultation—BBC Green Paper June 2005 Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Consultation—Free to Air April 2009 Media and Sport what the annual (a) running costs Consultation—Gambling Bill March 2004 and (b) income from entrance charges, shop sales and Consultation—Heritage Protection April 2007 other revenue at (i) Stonehenge, (ii) Old Sarum and (iii) Consultation—McMaster Review November 2007 Old Wardour Castle were in each of the last three Consultation—Museum of London Act October 2003 (1965) years. [286036] Consultation—Ticket Touting February 2009 Consultation—Television Without November 2006 Barbara Follett: Stonehenge, Old Sarum Castle and Frontiers Wardour Castle are properties managed by English Dome documents November 2001 Heritage. The information set out in the following table Freedom of Information Act Case October 2004 has been provided by English Heritage. The table shows Management the running costs incurred and income received by Honours 2001 English Heritage for the management of Stonehenge, Information Centre Enquiry March 2001 Old Sarum Castle and Wardour Castle in each of the Lottery Grants December 1996 last three years. Memorial—July 7th July 2005 Memorial—Tsunami March 2005 £ Records Centre July 2003 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 Sponsored Bodies July 1997

Stonehenge Databases managed by the Royal Parks Agency are: Running costs 2,177,206 2,043,083 2,162,420 Total income 5,392,727 5,680,332 5,901,546 Database Operational Admissions 3,174,409 3,373,807 3,550,203 income Estates Licencing 2000 Retail and 1,889,494 1,942,072 2,002,089 Fund Raising 2001 catering income Sports Booking 2005 Other earned 328,824 364,453 349,254 Considerate Cycling Scheme 2007 income What’s On (visitor information) 2005

Old Sarum Castle Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Running costs 161,868 161,769 137,943 Culture, Media and Sport what categories of personal Total income 243,828 223,807 198,282 information on members of the public will be held on Admissions 105,304 97,081 85,667 each database expected to become operational in the income next five years and which will be managed by his Retail and 94,209 90,278 80,324 Department or its agency; what estimate he has made catering income of the likely number of individuals’ details each such Other earned 44,315 36,448 32,291 database will hold when fully operational; and if he will income make a statement. [286139]

Wardour Castle Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has no specific plans Running costs 73,864 74,192 67,975 for databases in the future. However, they are used to Total income 113,198 115,338 97,478 capture views in consultations. Admissions 36,731 38,585 36,458 income Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Retail and 37,936 33,770 28,486 Culture, Media and Sport what databases which will be catering income managed by his Department and which will contain Other earned 38,531 42,983 32,534 personal information are (a) under construction and income (b) expected to go live in each of the next five years; and if he will make a statement. [286502] Departmental Databases Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department has no databases under Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for construction. It has no specific plans for databases in Culture, Media and Sport which databases managed by the future. However, they are used to capture views in his Department and its agencies hold personal consultations. information on members of the public; on what date Digital Broadcasting each such database become operational; and if he will make a statement. [284908] Mr. Hunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what meetings Ministers and officials Mr. Sutcliffe: My Department outsources management of his Department have had with representatives of BT of all Databases. The databases it uses which contain to discuss the Government’s Digital Britain report in personal information are: the last six months. [285040] 247W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 248W

Mr. Bradshaw [holding answer 8 July 2009]: Lord Sports Carter, joint Minister for the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and Department for Business, Innovation Mr. Don Foster: To ask the Secretary of State for and Skills has met representatives of BT four times to Culture, Media and Sport how many people of each discuss the Digital Britain White Paper in the last six (a) sex and (b) ethnic group participated in each months. Officials of the Department for Culture, Media sporting activity for which his Department records and Sport have met with representatives of BT once in figures in each of the last three years for which figures this time. are available. [272980]

Hampton Court Mr. Sutcliffe: Sport England has provided figures for sports currently in receipt of funding, where sample Mr. Liddell-Grainger: To ask the Secretary of State sizes are sufficient. These are drawn from Active People for Culture, Media and Sport how many grace and Survey 1 (APS1), for the period 2005-06; and from favour residences there are at (a) Hampton Court and Active People 2 (APS2), for the period 2007-08. Results (b) Kensington Palace; and how much income has are as follows: been received from the residences in the last five years. [284401] APS1 Sport Male Female White non-white

Barbara Follett: There are currently three grace and Athletics 836,900 516,500 1,245,000 108,800 favour residences at Hampton Court and one at Hampton Badminton 290,300 226,300 455,500 61,200 Court Mews occupied rent-free and there are no grace Basketball 125,100 33,100 108,900 49,400 and favour residents at Kensington Palace. Grace and Bowls 203,100 136,300 335,000 4,500 favour residences are by definition occupied rent-free Boxing 87,500 28,000 99,400 16,200 and therefore no income has been received in the last Canoeing and 26,200 10,300 35,100 1— five years. Kayaking Cricket 179,600 15,400 151,300 43,800 Religious Buildings: Conservation Cycling 1,159,900 474,200 1,539,300 95,600 Dance exercise 17,400 125,700 129,300 13,600 Fencing 10,400 1— 12,500 1— Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Fishing 139,900 6,500 145,200 1— Media and Sport how much funding his Department Football 1,870,000 149,700 1,755,000 266,700 allocated for the conservation of (a) cathedrals, (b) Golf 763,900 124,400 867,400 21,700 parish churches and (c) other places of worship in Gymnastics 13,300 45,600 54,400 4,500 [286037] and England in (i) 1997, (ii) 2001 and (iii) 2009. Trampolining Hockey-field 49,300 44,600 88,500 5,300 Barbara Follett: In the years requested, the funding Horse riding 41,700 273,200 309,800 4,800 made available by the Department for Culture, Media Judo 13,200 4,000 15,000 1— and Sport was as set out in the following tables. Mountaineering 49,400 17,800 63,200 4,000 1 DCMS funding for churches conservation trust Netball — 110,100 102,900 8,800 1 1 £ Rounders — 14,000 15,300 — Rowing 27,600 11,700 36,900 1— 1997-98 2,480,000 Rugby League 67,100 6,500 68,300 5,500 2001-02 3,000,000 Rugby Union 176,400 8,900 176,400 9,200 2008-09 3,161,000 Sailing 46,600 17,400 61,900 1— Shooting 53,300 4,800 56,600 1— DCMS funding for listed places of worship scheme1 Skiing and 76,700 50,600 123,200 4,200 £ Snowboarding Squash and 248,900 50,700 283,200 16,500 1997-98 2— Racquetball 2001-02 931,452 Swimming 1,127,300 2,147,500 3,098,800 175,100 2008-09 13,411,061 Table Tennis 50,000 19,200 61,900 7,400 1 It is not possible to segregate the grants disbursed between cathedrals, parish Taekwondo 11,200 7,900 16,700 1— churches and other places of worship. Tennis 244,600 212,400 418,800 38,200 2 Scheme not in place. Volleyball 18,500 14,200 27,000 5,800 In addition, English Heritage made funding available Weightlifting 95,300 12,400 90,800 17,000 for the conservation of cathedrals and other places of worship in England as set out in the following table. APS2 English Heritage does not distinguish between parish churches and places of worship in terms of funding. Sport Male Female White non-white Athletics 999,100 612,500 1,441,200 144,300 £ Badminton 307,500 228,100 453,800 86,100 English Heritage funding English Heritage funding Basketball 143,300 42,700 119,100 57,200 offered to cathedrals offered to places of worship Bowls 205,000 152,300 361,000 1— 1997-98 3,020,500 9,195,000 Boxing 87,700 19,100 85,000 19,900 2001-02 2,519,000 2,524,200 Canoeing and 36,100 7,400 40,800 1— Kayaking 2008-09 1,292,000 9,569,800 Cricket 187,600 17,100 155,000 58,200 249W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 250W

APS2 Regions 2008 2009 Sport Male Female White non-white South East Havant — Cycling 1,260,300 506,200 1,653,400 112,100 Herne Bay — Dance exercise 11,000 138,400 130,800 20,600 Whitstable — 1 1 Fencing 10,200 — 13,900 — South West Wadebridge Stow on the Wold Fishing 124,800 7,500 135,100 1— Football 1,996,400 146,600 1,880,700 295,400 Responsibility for tourist information centres falls to Golf 805,300 142,400 935,100 23,300 local authorities, for whom tourism support is a Gymnastics 20,600 68,600 82,100 1— discretionary activity. and Trampolining VisitEngland has worked with national, regional and Hockey-field 43,900 55,900 96,000 1— local level tourism stakeholders to develop a national Horse riding 43,300 298,600 344,800 1— partnership model to increase the promotion of tourist Judo 13,100 1— 17,100 1— information centres, to ensure that these are quality Mountaineering 63,600 22,500 76,300 1— assured, and to improve their customer focus. A national Netball 1— 116,800 108,400 14,000 implementation group will oversee the introduction of Rounders 1— 23,000 22,700 1— this new partnership. Rowing 39,000 15,900 52,900 1— The Government remain committed to supporting Rugby League 82,800 1— 84,600 1— the tourism industry. At the national tourism summit in Rugby Union 212,900 17,200 217,800 13,000 January, the Prime Minister called for a strengthened Sailing 64,900 25,000 88,200 1— partnership between industry and Government through Shooting 62,000 1— 64,400 1— the recession and toward recovery. A tourism advisory Skiing and 70,800 49,700 109,900 1— group, composed of key industry representatives, is Snowboarding providing intelligence and guidance in this regard and Squash and 243,400 50,300 270,600 23,300 an inter-ministerial group has been established to address Racquetball fiscal and regulatory concerns as well as incentives and Swimming 1,108,600 2,136,500 3,052,200 197,000 opportunities. VisitBritain and VisitEngland are also Table Tennis 53,500 22,100 65,300 9,800 running a major, £6.5 million overseas and domestic Taekwondo 16,800 7,400 21,500 1— marketing campaign, themed around destinations as Tennis 259,900 227,500 438,100 47,400 “Value for Money”. Volleyball 31,100 17,300 33,900 11,300 Weightlifting 108,900 9,400 93,300 18,600 1 Denotes insufficient sample size. INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT Active People has now been commissioned on a Departmental Internet rolling basis and further data will be available in due course. Further analysis of ethnicity and other Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for demographics can be found on Sport England’s Active International Development when his Department plans People Diagnostic website at: to update its web browsers from Internet Explorer 6. http://www.sportengland.org/index/get_resources/research/ [285012] active_people/active_people_diagnostic_intro.htm Mr. Michael Foster: The Department for International Sport England has not provided data on each individual Development (DFID) currently runs Internet Explorer sport by each detailed ethnic group (below the ‘white’ 7 as part of our standard PC build. We are evaluating and ‘non-white’ groups), as for some of the smaller Internet Explorer 8 for potential future release when we participant sports, there is insufficient sample to analyse have assessed compatibility with existing applications. the individual sport on a detailed demographic sub-group basis. JUSTICE Tourism Court Orders Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Mrs. Laing: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Culture, Media and Sport what estimate his how many court production orders for data from Department has made of the number of tourist communications service providers were (a) applied for information centres which have closed in the last two and (b) obtained in each year since 2000; and how years; and what recent steps his Department has taken many such orders were (i) sought and (ii) obtained by to support the tourism sector. [285916] Government departments and agencies in each such Barbara Follett: DCMS is aware of the following year. [285415] closures in 2008-09: Bridget Prentice: The information about court production orders which is being sought is not held centrally. Regions 2008 2009 Courts East Midlands — Lincoln London Hounslow Croydon Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State Hillingdon — for Justice what guidance is issued to the courts on Southwark — discretion to refer to presenting authorities for investigation instances of prima facie evidence of North East Addiston Newcastle Airport criminal activity contained in papers lodged with a North West Saddleworth — court in the course of a civil action. [286721] 251W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 252W

Bridget Prentice: The Judicial Studies Board issue To nearest £ million guidance to the judiciary in section 1.7 of the Civil Published net capital Bench Book on what to do when criminal conduct is DEL budget for discovered in civil proceedings. This can be viewed at Executive agency 2009-10 the Judicial Studies Board website at: Office of Public Guardian 2 www.jsboard.co.uk Tribunals Service 4 Courts: Fines MOJ other (includes NDPBs) 59 Departmental Unallocated capital Provision (DUP) 1164 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Total 768 1 MOJ currently has an official DUP for capital DEL which it intends to draw how many courts accept fine payments by (a) credit down formally in the supplementary round and forms part of NOMS and (b) debit card. [285268] expenditure plan. As published in the 2007 Pre-Budget Report and Mr. Straw: By the end of July all magistrate courts Comprehensive Spending Review, the provisional capital and their associated payment offices will be able to DEL budget for 2010-11 is £733 million. This funding is accept both debit and credit card payments. In addition yet to be allocated out across the Department and its there is a national internet site and telephone pay line agencies. through which card payments can be taken. No capital budgets have been set beyond 2010-11 as Departmental Contracts this is dependent on the outcome of the next Spending Review. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice if Departmental Procurement he will make an assessment of the standard of service provided to his Department and its agencies by Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice contractors appointed by reverse auction. [285221] what changes have been made to his Department’s (a) Claire Ward: Since the beginning to 2008 the Ministry office equipment and (b) stationery purchasing policy of Justice (MOJ) have undertaken three reverse auctions in the last six months. [285316] as detailed in the following table. Claire Ward: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) have not altered any purchasing policies for the supply of office Supplier Auction title Completed equipment (includes printers, photocopiers, facsimile, Hamilton and Pollock Polythene bags and February 2008 etc.) in the last six months. sacks—Lot 1 With regard to the provision of stationery suppliers, Hamilton and Pollock Polythene bags and February 2008 sacks—Lot 2 the MOJ has recently conducted a mini-competition 3663 Supply of frozen food June 2009 between Government framework suppliers to supply stuffs the total stationery requirement for the whole of MOJ. The mini-competition brought together the supply All of the products provided by the two suppliers requirements for HM Prison Service, HM Courts Service listed above are associated with food/catering services and Tribunals Service which was identified as an ideal that are supplied for National Offender Management opportunity to rationalise the stationery product base Service (NOMS). The polythene bags and sacks are and increase volume leverage for the benefit of the supplied as light catering equipment for holding food Ministry and the taxpayer. stuff only. The performance of both suppliers has been satisfactory Fraud: Essex with no disputes or reason to issue performance warnings during the post contact phase albeit the supply of Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice frozen food is currently in implementation phase having how many convictions for offences related to fraud in only been awarded in the past four weeks. connection with property leases there were in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point in each of the last five years. Departmental Finance [285473]

Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Claire Ward: There is no specific offence of ‘lease-related what the capital budget for his Department and each of fraud’. If detected, a person committing such an activity is likely to be charged with a general fraud offence—for its agencies is in the next four years. [285271] example, dishonestly making a false representation for Mr. Straw: The Ministry of Justice (MOJ) has a gain under section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 or, prior to capital DEL budget of £768 million this year, as published commencement of the Fraud Act in January 2007, in the 2009-10 Main Supply Estimates. This reflects obtaining property by deception under section 15 of the MOJ’S CSR settlement with HM Treasury. Capital Theft Act 1968. DEL budgets for individual MOJ agencies are contained The number of defendants found guilty of offences in the following table: under section 2 of the Fraud Act 2006 and section 15 of the Theft Act 1968 in Essex police force area, for the To nearest £ million years 2003 to 2007, is shown in the table. Information Published net capital held by the Ministry of Justice Court Proceedings Database DEL budget for for the number of convictions for fraud offences cannot Executive agency 2009-10 be broken down to constituency level. Nor is it possible National Offender Management Service (NOMS) 375 to identify how many of those convicted of fraud were Her Majesty’s Courts Service 164 guilty of offences specifically relating to property leases. 253W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 254W

These data are provided on a principal offence basis. Of the 16 offenders in the table with an index offence This means that where a defendant has been found for a homicide offence, two were subsequently charged guilty of two or more offences, the offence selected is with and convicted of a homicide offence. 2 offenders the one for which the heaviest penalty was imposed. died shortly after the serious further offence and prior Where the same sentence is imposed for two or more to any charge being brought. offences, the offence selected is the offence for which the statutory maximum penalty is the most severe. Serious further offence Offenders with index reviews offence-homicide Court proceedings data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. 2001 341 — 2002 394 — Number of defendants found guilty at all courts for offences of obtaining property by deception1 or fraud by false representation2, in Essex police force 2003 294 — area, 2003-073,4 2004-05 537 — Found guilty 2005-06 581 — 2006-07 1,043 17 2003 156 2007-08 1,252 29 2004 147 1 Four murders one manslaughter two deaths by dangerous driving 2005 127 2 Five murders three manslaughters one death by dangerous driving 2006 134 Note: Up until 2003, serious further offence statistics were compiled on a calendar 2007 156 year basis, and thereafter on a business year basis. 1 Includes the following statutes: Theft Act 1968 Sec 15. Legal Aid Scheme: Finance Fraud Act 2006 (repealed eight sections including S15 of the Theft Act 1968 and was implemented in January 2007). 2 Fraud Act 2006 S.1(2a)(3)(4), and 2. 3 These data are on the principal offence basis. Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice 4 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and what expenditure his Department incurred on (a) the complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted legal aid 60 years exhibition and (b) other from large administrative data systems generated by the courts, and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection commemorative events associated with the 60th processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those anniversary of legal aid. [285260] data are used. Source: OCJR—E&A: Office for Criminal Justice Reform—Evidence and Analysis Mr. Straw: The aim of the 60th anniversary of legal Unit aid exhibition and related media work is to improve people’s awareness and knowledge of legal aid services. The Ministry of Justice supported the launch of the Further Offence Inquiries 60th anniversary of legal aid exhibition at a cost of just under £900. The LSC has spent just under £40,000 on producing the material for the exhibition (in English Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice and Welsh) and paying for the host venues across the how many serious further offence inquiries were country throughout 2009, including costs for transportation conducted in each year since 2001; and how many of and hosting media events. To date (8 July 2009) the LSC those involved a person previously convicted of has spent just under £4,000 on supporting other homicide. [285275] commemorative events associated with the 60th anniversary of legal aid. Mr. Straw: The number of serious further offence reviews which were conducted in each year since 2001, Legal Aid: Finance together with the number of those involving a person under supervision for an index offence of homicide, is Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice included in the following table. The table is based on what expenditure his Department incurred in legal aid cases that were recorded in the published annual Prison payments in respect of family proceedings in each year and Probation statistics and the Offender Management since 1997. [285267] Caseload Statistics respectively. Mr. Straw: Gross payments in family proceedings is The changes in serious further offence review numbers shown in the following table. Finalised figures for 2008-09 since 2001 are largely attributable to overall changes in are not yet available. the size and nature of the workload of the Probation Service over this period (from 145,000 in 2004 to 179,000 Bills paid (£ million) in 2008), action to address known under-reporting of serious further offences and the revisions to the serious 1996-97 392 further offence review procedures which took place in 1997-98 389 2006. These revisions increased the number of cases 1998-99 423 requiring review by extending the number of stipulated 1999-2000 420 offences that qualified for review. Prior to 2006, the 2000-01 443 review procedures stipulated nine named offences which 2001-02 399 qualified for review; thereafter, there were 74. 2002-03 450 2003-04 493 The data covers index offences of homicide only 2004-05 488 since 2006-07, as this is the data that NOMS holds on 2005-06 536 its electronic database, and obtaining further details 2006-07 548 would involve manual trawling of individual reviews 2007-08 582 which would incur delay and large cost. 255W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 256W

Legal Aid: North West Non-molestation orders applied for in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Avon and Somerset 509 459 456 499 438 487 Justice (1) how many solicitors’ offices provided legal Bedfordshire, Essex and 864 761 774 689 719 859 aid to clients in each local authority area in the North Herts West in relation to (a) civil and (b) criminal cases in Birmingham, Coventry, 543 565 458 441 471 497 each of the last three years; [285371] Solihull and Warwickshire (2) what estimate he has made of the number of Black Country, 875 789 728 674 564 657 firms of solicitors in the North West which have ceased Staffordshire and West providing legal services to clients who require legal aid Mercia for (a) civil and (b) criminal cases in each of the last Cambridgeshire, Norfolk 582 600 580 524 565 566 and Suffolk three years. [285372] Cheshire and Merseyside 608 571 512 500 437 519 Cleveland, Durham and 1,319 1,221 1,198 1,343 1,233 1,285 Bridget Prentice: The information is being collated by Northumbria the Legal Services Commission. I will write to the hon. Cumbria and Lancashire 585 570 588 592 575 555 Member when the information is available. Devon and Cornwall 689 562 501 479 483 445 Dorset, Gloucestershire 658 581 497 445 411 534 and Wiltshire Legal Services Commission: Research Greater Manchester 592 545 531 545 431 404 Hampshire and Isle of 544 545 529 518 502 462 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Wight if he will place in the Library a copy of the results of Humber and South 1,084 924 911 868 806 751 the research commissioned by the Legal Services Yorkshire Commission on legal visits to prisons. [285270] Kent 503 482 424 341 364 472 Lincolnshire, 404 451 411 395 411 471 Leicestershire and Mr. Straw: The Legal Services Commission (LSC) Rutland and has not commissioned formal research into legal visits Northamptonshire to prisons. London Civil and Family 4,580 4,624 4,825 4,647 4,316 4,791 Nevertheless, the LSC does undertake online surveys Mid and West Wales 215 149 164 150 161 136 from time to time to obtain information and views from North and West 1,264 1,245 1,357 1,418 1,426 1,599 legal aid providers on specific topics. In late 2008, it Yorkshire conducted an online survey inviting solicitors’ firms to North Wales 199 160 157 125 110 148 provide views on the application of good practice guidance Derbyshire and 395 332 309 317 316 342 on prison legal visits issued in 2007 by the Ministry of Nottinghamshire Justice and the LSC. The survey covered areas such as South East Wales 262 251 184 170 195 183 legal practitioners’ experience of booking prison visits Surrey and Sussex 748 635 705 691 610 695 and use of video links for consultations with clients. Thames Valley 675 565 539 562 509 491 This exercise has informed work by the LSC at a local level, including a project which aims to increase use of video links by criminal justice partners within the England and Wales 18,697 17,587 17,338 16,933 16,053 17,349 Northumbria area. The LSC has not published the survey results but intends to place a summary on its Non-molestation orders made in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 website by the end of July. A copy will be placed in the Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 House Libraries. Avon and Somerset 578 523 524 561 498 548 In February 2009, the LSC published a consultation Bedfordshire, Essex and 851 795 788 722 778 945 on reform of prison law work, including proposals to Herts Birmingham, Coventry, 504 728 668 618 662 578 increase control on costs. The LSC will publish a Solihull and consultation response shortly. Warwickshire Black Country, 1,322 1,147 1,006 969 780 781 Staffordshire and West Non-molestation Orders Mercia Cambridgeshire, Norfolk 760 838 831 809 765 673 and Suffolk Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Cheshire and Merseyside 934 777 793 695 563 597 how many applications for a non-molestation order Cleveland, Durham and 1,977 1,839 1,843 2,018 1,784 1,541 have been made in each court area in each year since Northumbria their introduction; and how many such orders have Cumbria and Lancashire 1,018 1,055 1,084 907 855 791 Devon and Cornwall 1,044 793 614 548 527 421 been granted. [286608] Dorset, Gloucestershire 841 761 610 609 563 631 and Wiltshire Bridget Prentice: The following tables show the number Greater Manchester 862 745 720 722 503 374 of non-molestation orders applied for, and the number Hampshire and Isle of 519 583 569 565 504 349 of non-molestation orders granted, in each court area Wight in each year since 2003. The data are taken from the Humber and South 1,075 1,047 1,098 1,051 919 702 Yorkshire HMCS FamilyMan database and the applications figures Kent 659 666 580 466 453 445 do not include applications for arrest warrants. 257W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 258W

Non-molestation orders made in England and Wales, by court area, 2003-08 Average hours of purposeful activity per prisoner per month Area 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 Number

Lincolnshire, 510 579 567 574 534 321 February 2006 25.6 Leicestershire and March 2006 26.6 Rutland and Northamptonshire April 2006 24.5 London Civil and Family 6,785 ’ 6,057 5,785 5,303 5,737 May 2006 25.2 6,290 June 2006 25.7 Mid and West Wales 299 189 184 172 200 132 July 2006 25.6 North and West 1,823 1,779 1,756 1,958 1,817 1,987 August 2006 25.0 Yorkshire September 2006 25.8 North Wales 333 264 261 140 125 134 October 2006 25.7 Derbyshire and 506 406 390 434 422 415 November 2006 25.8 Nottinghamshire December 2006 23.2 South East Wales 305 301 198 205 189 156 January 2007 25.6 Surrey and Sussex 983 813 882 796 635 655 February 2007 25.4 Thames Valley 944 834 828 747 601 573 March 2007 25.6 April 2007 25.0 England and Wales 25,432 23,752 22,851 22,071 19,980 19,486 May 2007 24.6 Area level figures are not available before 2003. However, June 2007 25.8 the following table gives, for each year from 1998 to July 2007 26.0 2002, the most recently published national figures. August 2007 24.3 September 2007 25.9 Non molestation orders applied for, and made, in England and Wales between October 2007 25.9 1998 and 2002 November 2007 26.0 Applications made Orders made December 2007 23.3 1998 18,153 19,365 January 2008 26.0 1999 16,908 18,465 February 2008 25.9 2000 15,734 18,293 March 2008 25.0 2001 17,590 20,968 April 2008 25.5 2002 19,131 24,999 May 2008 24.5 June 2008 25.4 Prisoners July 2008 25.0 August 2008 24.5 September 2008 25.2 Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice October 2008 25.2 how many hours of purposeful activity were recorded November 2008 25.0 on average by prisoners in each month in the last five December 2008 22.2 years. [285261] January 2009 25.2 February 2009 24.8 Mr. Straw: The average number of hours of purposeful March 2009 25.4 activity by prisoners in each month in the last five years is set out in the following table. Probation: Hemel Hempstead Average hours of purposeful activity per prisoner per month Number Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for April 2004 23.2 Justice what the average ratio of offenders to Probation May 2004 23.7 Service staff in the Hemel Hempstead probation area June 2004 24.9 was in each of the last five years. [284321] July 2004 24.8 August 2004 23.9 September 2004 24.9 Maria Eagle: The ratio of offenders supervised by October 2004 25.0 Hertfordshire probation area to Hertfordshire probation November 2004 25.1 staff (unfortunately the caseload is not broken down to December 2004 22.6 constituency level) as at 31 December each year is as January 2005 24.9 shown in the following table. The ratio for offender February 2005 25.1 management staff has also been provided as this represents March 2005 24.1 a full picture of the workload (it should also be noted April 2005 23.7 that this includes trainee probation officers, who would May 2005 24.7 have a low protected caseload). June 2005 26.0 July 2005 26.7 Offender managers : Total staff : offenders offenders August 2005 24.6 September 2005 25.5 2004 1:10 1:23 October 2005 25.2 2005 1:12 1:30 November 2005 25.4 2006 1:12 1:35 December 2005 23.4 2007 1:13 1:36 January 2006 25.3 2008 1:13 1:41 259W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 260W

Probation Officers Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s Prison In-Reach Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many trainee probation officers are expected to Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for qualify in (a) Northumbria and (b) England and Justice how many prisoners who were formerly Wales in September 2009; how many in each category members of the armed forces have been identified by he estimates will be offered full-time employment as the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s Prison trained probation officers; and if he will make a In-Reach programme in each (a) nation and (b) statement. [285567] region in which they have been held in each year since the programme’s inception. [286073] Maria Eagle: In October 2009 24 trainee probation officers (TPOs) are due to qualify in Northumbria and a total of 518 are due to qualify in England and Wales. Mr. Kevan Jones: I have been asked to reply. A recent survey of the 42 probation areas, who are the The Veterans Prison-In-Reach initiative aims to raise employers, has shown that it is too soon to accurately awareness among ex-service offenders and their families estimate how many TPOs will be offered permanent about the help and assistance that is available to them. posts upon graduation. The Ministry of Justice and the MOD are working together with the ex-service charities, including The Royal British Legion, SSAFA-Forces Help and Combat Roads: Accidents Stress, to publicise the initiative and to target better those who need assistance. I will arrange for copies of our new leaflet and poster publicising the Veterans Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice Prison-In-Reach initiative to be placed in the Library of how many criminal convictions have resulted from hit the House. and run incidents in (a) the North East, (b) Tees Valley and (c) Middlesbrough South and East The Service Personnel and Veterans Agency (SPVA) Cleveland constituency in each year since 1997. Welfare Service has the capability to respond to referrals [285334] as part of their normal business. Consequently, no specific funding has been provided under this initiative. Claire Ward: The available information on the findings On contacting the SPVA, prison authorities (welfare) of guilt at all courts for the offence of ‘failing to stop and ex-service offenders are referred to the Veterans after an accident’ in Cleveland Police Force Area, and Welfare Service which has the capability to offer help the North East Region for the years 1997 to 2007 is and advice to them and to their families. The ex-service shown in the table. charities also provide support including financial assistance, Data for 2008 will be available in the autumn of 2009. help with rent as well as clothing, training, relocation, employment and welfare visits to veterans and to their Findings of guilt at all courts for the offence of ‘failing to stop after an accident’1,2,3 in Cleveland police force area, and the North East region4, 1997 to families. 5 2007 Statistics on the number of offenders who are ex-service, Number of offences the number who contact the SPVA, and the prison Total findings of guilt establishments they come from are not held centrally 4 Cleveland North East region and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. 1997 105 438 We are working closely with the Ministry of Justice to 1998 86 435 produce up-to-date and authoritative data on the number 1999 89 452 of our veterans in prison. 2000 75 428 2001 71 467 2002 77 515 Sexual Offences: Compensation 2003 132 617 2004 76 486 2005 79 473 Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Secretary of State 2006 81 495 for Justice how many awards have been made by the 2007 91 518 Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority in relation 1 Not all hit and run incidents are pursued through the courts—minor ones in to serious sexual assaults committed on patients while particular may not involve police attendance and may not be reported to the in the care of the NHS in the last five years. [285204] police by the injured party. 2 “Hit and run” usually refers to a collision in which someone was injured or killed. The offence of failure to stop is also committed if there has only been damage but such incidents cannot be distinguished from those involving, injury Claire Ward: In assessing criminal injuries compensation or death. applications, the main information the Criminal Injuries 3 A person involved in a hit and run incident may be convicted of a more serious Compensation Authority (the Authority) requires (in offence such as dangerous driving. 4 North East region includes figures for Cleveland police force area. addition to an applicant’s personal details) are incident 5 Every effort is made to ensure that the figures presented are accurate and reports from the police to determine whether a crime of complete. However, it is important to note that these data have been extracted violence has taken place; and reports from medical from large administrative data systems generated by the courts and police forces. As a consequence, care should be taken to ensure data collection authorities to determine the nature and extent of an processes and their inevitable limitations are taken into account when those applicant’s injuries. The Authority does not need details data are used. on whether an applicant was in the care of the NHS at Source: OCJR E&A (Office for Criminal Justice Reform, Evidence and Analysis Unit), the time of the assault, and therefore does not record Ministry of Justice that information. 261W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 262W

Young Offender Institutions Maria Eagle: The tables show the percentage of 15-19 year-old male and female offenders in young offender institutions (YOIs) who were detained within 20 miles Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for of their home area, as of September 2008. Home area is Justice what percentage of (a) 12, (b) 13, (c) 14, (d) taken as a prisoner’s home address. If no home address 15, (e) 16, (f) 17, (g) 18 and (h) 19 year olds in each is recorded the court of first committal is used as a young offender institution was detained within 20 miles proxy. We do not hold reliable data for travel times or 45 minutes travel away from their homes on the between YOIs and home areas. Those aged 12 to 14 are latest date for which figures are available. [285053] not held in YOIs.

Percentage of 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19 year-olds in each young offender institution detained within 20 miles or 45 minutes travel away from their homes on the latest date for which figures are available Male YOI Percentage of 15 Percentage of 16 Percentage of 17 Percentage of 18 Percentage of 19 year-olds held within year-olds held within year-olds held within year-olds held within year-olds held within 20 miles of home 20 miles of home 20 miles of home 20 miles of home 20 miles of home area area area area area

Ashfield 15 8 10 10 0 Aylesbury n/a n/a n/a 1 1 Brinsford8381746469 Castington 00650 Cookham Wood 0 13 19 50 n/a Deerbolt n/a n/a n/a 3 2 Feltham 67 46 58 68 68 Glen Parva n/a n/a n/a 13 15 Hindley 71 70 68 44 52 Huntercombe 3236n/a Lancaster Farms 00145 Northallerton n/a n/a n/a 0 2 Portland n/a n/a n/a 1 1 Reading n/a n/a n/a 39 28 Rochester n/a n/a n/a 9 8 Stoke Heath 10 9 2 12 10 Swinfen Hall n/a n/a n/a 10 24 Thorn Cross n/a n/a 0 25 17 WarrenHill4970n/a Werrington 0510n/a Wetherby 23 26 23 15 n/a

Female YOI Percentage of 15 Percentage of 16 Percentage of 17 Percentage of 18 Percentage of 19 year-olds held within year-olds held within year-olds held within year-olds held within year-olds held within 20 miles of home 20 miles of home 20 miles of home 20 miles of home 20 miles of home area area area area area

Askham Grange n/a n/a n/a 0 0 Downview n/a 100 53 n/a 0 Drake Hall n/a n/a n/a 0 33 Eastwood Park n/a n/a 0 18 5 Foston Hall n/a n/a 13 33 100 Holloway n/a n/a n/a 72 39 Low Newton n/a n/a n/a 20 17 New Hall n/a n/a 12 10 6 Styal n/a n/a n/a 21 55

Young Offenders: Sports Average number of hours per offender per week Mr. Grieve: To ask the Secretary of State for Justice how many hours on average a young offender in prison 2004-05 3.5 spent playing competitive sport in each of the last five 2005-06 3.3 years. [285264] 2006-07 3.2 Mr. Straw: The average number of hours of recreational 2007-08 3.4 sport and educational physical education per offender 2008-09 3.5 per week in young offender institutions is: 263W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 264W

DEFENCE indiscriminate use of violence. ISAF forces are not present on a permanent basis in many parts of Afghanistan, 3 Squadron which makes it difficult to monitor atrocities against the civilian population by the Taliban. The UK Government Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for do not collate or publish figures for civilian casualties in Defence what the annual operating costs for Afghanistan because of the immense difficulty and 3 Squadron based at RAF Coningsby are. [284596] risks of collecting robust data, including the nature of any munitions involved. Bill Rammell: The annual operating costs for 3 Squadron All reports of civilian casualties are investigated promptly for FY 2008-09 were £15 million excluding cost of and thoroughly, in co-ordination with the Afghan capital charges. authorities. Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence how many soldiers of (a) the Welsh Guards Defence pursuant to the answer of 8 June 2009, and (b) the Royal Welsh Regiment deployed in Official Report, column 697W, whether his Department Afghanistan have been (i) killed, (ii) injured, (iii) has procedures to (a) (i) minimise and (ii) record the seriously injured and (iv) very seriously injured in each risk to civilians from use of enhanced blast munitions month of the deployment; and if he will make a and (b) investigate cases of injury and death caused to statement. [286102] citizens by such munitions in Afghanistan. [280093] Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Between the commencement of Mr. Bob Ainsworth: We regret incidents where civilians operations in Afghanistan in 2001 and 8 July 2009, five are accidentally killed as a result of actions by international members of the Welsh Guards and one member of the forces. Procedures are in place, and constantly updated Royal Welsh Regiment have died while on deployment in the light of experience, both to minimise the risk of or as a result of injuries sustained on deployment, all these casualties occurring and to investigate any incidents were the result of hostile action. All six deaths happened that do happen. UK personnel operate at all times in 2009, of which one occurred in each month from under rules of engagement which ensure that force is March to June and two in July. used in accordance with international humanitarian Since operations began in Afghanistan in 2001 and law. This ensures that civilian casualties and damage to 15 June 2009, the latest date for which casualty information civilian infrastructure are minimised. Wherever possible, is available, 13 members of the Welsh Guards and 18 local populations are warned of impending operations. members of the Royal Welsh Regiment have been injured We should remember the insurgents are the real threat while on deployment in Afghanistan. These figures are to the safety and security of the Afghan people by their provided in the following table:

2009 (as at Regiment All 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 15 June)

All 31000000122 17 Welsh Guards 13 —————— 1— 12 Royal Welsh Regiment 18 ——————112 5

The figures represent UK operational casualties in 2009-10 and (b) 2010-11; and if he will make a Afghanistan from 7 October 2001 to 15 June 2009. The statement. [286536] figures include injuries as a result of hostile action and non-battle injuries, and exclude all casualties from natural causes. Mr. Bob Ainsworth: The estimated cost of operations in Afghanistan for this financial year is £3.5 billion as The figures include all injury categories from the recently published for the first time in MOD’s main NOTICAS reporting system (Very Seriously Injured, estimates. The cost of military operations is dependent Seriously Injured, Incapacitating Injury and Unlisted on a number of variable factors which are difficult to Condition). predict, including changes to operational tempo and Information on the breakdown of very seriously and the actual conditions in theatre at the time. We do not, seriously injured casualties by month is not released to therefore, attempt to project costs for subsequent years. protect individual identities. Casualty statistics for UK Military and Civilian personnel Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence in Afghanistan are routinely updated for each fortnight pursuant to the answer of 24 June 2009, Official on the MOD website. The tables can be found at the Report, column 899W, on Afghanistan: peacekeeping following link: operations, how many British troops were required to http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FactSheets/Operations serve in the Regional Command South Headquarters Factsheets/OperationsInAfghanistanBritishCasualties.htm between May 2007 and February 2008. [284516]

Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Bill Rammell: Between May 2007 and February 2008, Defence what estimate he has made of the cost to his the UK was responsible for filling approximately 80 posts Department of its operations in Afghanistan in (a) within Regional Command South Headquarters from a 265W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 266W total of some 400 posts. The actual number of UK Shotton personnel would have fluctuated over this period due to The National Arboretum individual tour lengths. Shipdham Hull Armed Forces Sleaford Swindon Mr. Russell Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Liverpool Defence what recent representations he has received on formal commemoration of the achievements of the Isle of Man Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes. [286720] Middle Wallop Chepstow Mr. Kevan Jones: I can confirm that the Secretary of Horley State for Defence has not received any recent representations Eastleigh regarding formal commemoration of the achievements Eden Camp of the Navy, Army and Air Force Institutes (NAAFI). I Stirling am however pleased to express my gratitude to NAAFI for their continued worldwide support to our Service Andover personnel. Nottingham Kelso Armed Forces Day: Finance Truro Odiham, Hants Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Ryde, Isle of Wight (1) which Armed Forces Day 2009 events received Edinburgh funding from his Department; and if he will make a Crawley statement; [285421] Coppice Park, Notts (2) how many applications for funding from his Sporle Department for events to commemorate Armed Forces Day 2009 were not granted; and if he will make a Castle Point statement. [285200] Brighton Manchester Mr. Kevan Jones: There is one recorded case only of Aberdeen funding not being granted to an event. This related to Leeds an event where Ministry of Defence funding had already Salford been given to the local council. The organisers were Staveley advised to join forces with the council to create one larger event. Elgin, Moray The Ministry of Defence provided grants to 85 event Lowestoft organisers from across the United Kingdom. A list of Bracknell the event locations is as follows: Bradford Chatham Worthing Cardiff Dorchester Blackpool East Grinstead Plymouth South Gloucestershire Southport Halifax RAF Shawbery Surrey (Royal British Legion) Torbay Scarborough Perranporth Greater London Authority Rhyl Birmingham Trowbridge Clevedon Weymouth Eastbourne Luton Reading Caernarfon Salisbury Southend Durham Swanage Glasgow Okehampton Greenford Beverley Dudley Carrickfergus Barrow-in-Furness Hastings Abingdon Normanton East Barnet Portsmouth Ellesmere Port Bridgewater Dundee 267W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 268W

Folkestone Armed Forces: Females Ealing Barnet Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Bourne, Lines for Defence how many women applied to join the Wigan armed forces in 2008. [285905] Dover. Mr. Kevan Jones: In financial year 2008-09,1,830 women applied to join the naval service, 2,134 to join Armed Forces: Death the Army and 3,351 to join the RAF.

Rosie Cooper: To ask the Secretary of State for Armed Forces: Males Defence what targets his Department has set for the timetable against which inquests into the deaths of Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State members of the armed forces killed in action should be for Defence how many men applied to join the armed completed; and if he will make a statement. [285571] forces in 2008. [285904]

Bill Rammell: I refer the hon. Member to the answer Mr. Kevan Jones: In financial year 2008-09,12,641 my predecessor gave her on 12 January 2009, Official men applied to join the naval service, 20,701 to join the Report, column 6, where he stated that it has been one Army and 14,276 to join the RAF. of his priorities to eliminate unnecessary delay and I am Armed Forces: Minorities pleased that we continue to make progress on this. The timing of individual inquests is a matter for the Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State Coroner to decide, taking into account all relevant for Defence what steps his Department is taking to circumstances, including in particular the availability of increase applications for service in the armed forces the bereaved family and demands for other, non-military from minority groups. [285908] inquests. So it would be inappropriate for MOD to set targets. But we have been working closely with families Mr. Kevan Jones: The armed forces are committed to and coroners to provide them with all the information becoming more representative of the society they serve they operations need so that inquests into the deaths of and invest considerable resources to this end. Service personnel who die on operations can be held as quickly as possible. Some such inquests are now being For details of our work to increase applications from held as little as seven months after the death and others ethnic minority groups, I refer the hon. Member to the within eight to 10 months. Some inquests have to await reply I gave him on 10 February 2009, Official Report, the outcome of complex technical or other investigations column 1876W. and it is right that they do so. I remain committed to The under representation of women in the armed doing all we can to reduce the timeframe in which such forces is recognised and we continue to encourage women inquests are held so that families can get the answers to to join through recruitment campaigns which raise their questions and be helped in coming to terms with awareness of the benefits of a career in the armed their tragic loss. forces. These campaigns concentrate on the opportunities for training and the acquisition of professional Armed Forces: Ethnic Groups qualifications, and to dispel fears and myths about life in the services. The armed forces also offer a generous maternity scheme to provide supportive arrangements Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State to enable servicewomen to accommodate pregnancy for Defence how many people from black and ethnic and maternity absence within their careers. minority backgrounds applied to join the armed forces The armed forces are exempt from the employment in 2008. [285906] provisions of the Disability Discrimination Act 1995. However, we demonstrate our willingness to follow the Mr. Kevan Jones: In financial year 2008-09,759 people spirit of disability legislation by recruiting people who from black and ethnic minority backgrounds applied to may have some degree of impairment and by retaining a join the naval service, 2,555 to join the Army and 657 to significant number of personnel who have become disabled join the RAF. These figures do not include Ghurkha in the course of their duties. applications. The armed forces are equal opportunity employers and therefore are only interested in the individual’s Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State qualities and abilities not in such issues as their background, for Defence how many people from black and ethnic religion or sexual orientation which are considered private minority backgrounds successfully applied for a matters and not relevant to an individual’s suitability commission in the armed forces in 2008. [285907] for a career in the armed forces. We aim to provide a working environment where individuals can freely practise Mr. Kevan Jones: In 2008 1,810 out of a total of their religious observances or where individuals are free 21,810 successful applicants for the intake to UK regular to be open about their orientation should they wish. forces were from ethnic minority backgrounds. Recruitment strategies encourage lesbian, gay and bisexual Due to ongoing validation of data from the Joint people to consider a career in the armed forces. For Personnel Administration System, all flow statistics example, representatives from all three services took from financial year 2007-08 are provisional and subject part in uniform in a parade as part of the London Pride to review. event in July 2009. 269W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 270W

Armed Forces: Social Clubs shipyards. In return, BVT will be expected to achieve efficiency targets. This will provide a sound, long-term Chris Ruane: To ask the Secretary of State for basis for the future of naval shipbuilding. Defence what information his Department holds on the It is quite normal in long-term industrial partnership number of service personnel social clubs which have agreements between the MOD and defence suppliers closed in each of the last 30 years. [286292] that provision should be made for redundancy costs to be met at customer expense in certain circumstances, Mr. Kevan Jones: The information requested is not but MOD has made no plans for redundancies in the held centrally and could be provided only at shipyards. disproportionate cost. Departmental Data Protection Armoured Fighting Vehicles Mr. Blunt: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for how many breaches of information security there have Defence what (a) type and (b) level of mine resistance been at (a) his Department and (b) its agencies in the tests the Navistar Defence Husky vehicle tactical last five years. [281077] support has been subjected; and if he will publish the results. [286441] Mr. Kevan Jones: During the four-year period ending 31 March 2008, 12 significant breaches of information Mr. Quentin Davies: Husky has successfully passed security were centrally reported within the Ministry of stringent mine blast protection tests. I cannot, however, Defence. Figures for 2008-09 are currently being compiled, comment on the specific types and levels of mine resistant audited and verified prior to laying before Parliament in tests, as disclosure could prejudice the security of the the Department’s Annual Report and Accounts 2008-09. armed forces. Departmental Databases Ann Winterton: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer of 2 July 2009, Official Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for Report, column 374W, on armoured fighting vehicles, Defence what categories of personal information on what roles the 334 Panther vehicles not upgraded for members of the public will be held on each of his deployment in Afghanistan will have. [286442] Department’s and its agency’s databases expected to become operational in the next five years; what Mr. Quentin Davies: The Panther vehicles that have estimate he has made of the likely number of not been upgraded for deployment in Afghanistan will individuals’ details each such database will hold when be used for pre-deployment training, individual and fully operational; and if he will make a statement. collective training, and trials and development. [286495]

BVT Shipyards Mr. Kevan Jones: Ministry of Defence officials are currently collating and validating the data needed to answer these questions. I will write to the hon. Member Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for before the summer recess. Defence (1) whether the proposed terms of business agreement between his Department and BVT Departmental Electronic Equipment Shipyards includes provision for rationalisation of BVT facilities during its lifetime; [284825] Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for (2) what recent discussions he has had with BVT Defence how many (a) photocopiers, (b) scanning Shipyards on redundancies arising from shipyard devices and (c) fax machines, excluding multi-function rationalisation; and if he will make a statement; devices, there are in his Department; how many there [284826] were in each of the last three years; and if he will make (3) what discussions he has had with BVT Shipyards a statement. [286176] on their plans for shipyard rationalisation. [284827] Mr. Quentin Davies: This information is not held Mr. Quentin Davies: As stated in the 2005 Defence centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate Industrial Strategy (DIS, Cmnd 6697), MOD is committed cost. to sustaining key sovereign capabilities, particularly in high end design, systems engineering and combat systems Departmental Manpower integration, to support the needs of the Royal Navy today and well into the future. As well as securing Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for future capability, the DIS also signalled the need for a Defence what change in the number of jobs at his sensible balance between supply and demand over time. Department’s bases in each (a) county in England and MOD is working with industry to make best use of Wales and (b) local authority area in Scotland was in taxpayers’ money in seeking opportunities for rationalisation each year since 1992; and if he will make a statement. and the delivery of efficiencies wherever possible. [284591] As part of ongoing commercial negotiations on a 15-year Terms of Business Agreement with BVT Surface Mr. Kevan Jones: Data for the number of job losses at Fleet Limited (BVT), we are discussing the workload MOD bases are not centrally held and could be provided required to sustain these key skills and capability in the only at disproportionate cost. 271W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 272W

Departmental Training be taking place over the coming months. A further update on progress of the review will be provided with Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence the pre-Budget report. how much his Department has spent on IT training for The Secretary of State for Defence has no current its staff in each of the last five years. [274210] plans to meet private sector stakeholders as part of the OEP Review of the Met Office. Mr. Kevan Jones: This information is not held centrally and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for Expenditure on IT training must be necessary, appropriate, Defence on what date he and officials of his cost-effective and an admissible charge to public funds. Department will first meet the Operational Efficiency Programme project team to consider the future of the Gurkhas: Pensions Met Office. [286591]

Mr. Heald: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Kevan Jones: The Operational Efficiency Programme if he will bring forward proposals to provide pensions (OEP) Met Office Review Group is compromised of equal to those for UK soldiers for Gurkhas who retired officials from the Ministry of Defence, Shareholder from the armed forces prior to 1997. [286239] Executive, HM Treasury and the Met Office and meets regularly in undertaking the review. The group first met Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Member to the on 19 January 2009. The Secretary of State for Defence answer given by the Minister for Armed Forces (Bill has no current plans to attend Review Group Meetings, Rammell) on 7 July 2009, Official Report, column 659W, but receives regular updates on the work of the Review to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Attercliffe (Mr. Betts) Group. Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for for Heywood and Middleton of 19 June 2009, Official Defence when he expects the decision on the future of Report, column 512W, on Gurkhas: pensions, what the Met Office to be announced. [286598] proportion of the £1.5 billion estimated cost to his Department he expects to be incurred in each of the Mr. Kevan Jones: The Operational Efficiency Programme next 20 years. [286347] has taken a tailored approach to each of the studies in its remit, and carries out a rolling programme of work Mr. Hancock: To ask the Secretary of State for that reports at six-monthly intervals. Work is now under Defence pursuant to the answer of 19 June 2009, way on the next steps set out for the Met Office review Official Report, column 512W, on Gurkhas: pensions, in the OEP Final Report published April 2009, with the what methodology his Department used to calculate findings of this work dictating the timing of the study’s the figure of £1.5 billion; and what estimate he has recommendations. Progress will next be reported at the made of how much of this expenditure would be pre-Budget report 2009. incurred in each year over which such expenditure is planned. [286429] Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will commission research into Mr. Kevan Jones: I refer the hon. Members to the international comparisons with public sector weather answer I gave on 8 July 2009, Official Report, column service providers as part of his consideration of the 788W, to the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Drew). A future of the Met Office. [286599] breakdown of the estimated cost could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Kevan Jones: The Secretary of State for Defence has no current plans to commission research into Met Office international comparisons with public weather service providers as part of his consideration of the future of Mr. Arbuthnot: To ask the Secretary of State for the Met Office. Defence whether (a) he and (b) officials of his Department plan to meet private sector stakeholders as Military Aircraft part of his Department’s ongoing review of the Met Office. [286590] Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence Mr. Kevan Jones: The Operational Efficiency Programme what assumption has been made for planning purposes (OEP) Met Office Review Group is compromised of of the service entry date for the Joint Strike Fighter. officials from the Ministry of Defence, Shareholder [284544] Executive, HM Treasury and the Met Office and meets regularly in undertaking the review. Mr. Bob Ainsworth: I refer the hon. Member to the This group is responsible for taking forward all aspects answer given to him by my hon. Friend the Minister for of the Met Office review as set out in the OEP Final Defence Equipment and Support (Quentin Davies) on Report published April 2009. In exploring all options 18 June 2009, Official Report, column 465W. and opportunities, this has included initial discussions regarding opportunities for engaging with private sector Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for partners, although to date the group has not met with Defence what the (a) required and (b) actual number Private sector stakeholders. This aspect of the work is at of pilots in the armed forces is for the MR2 aircraft. an early stage, and more detailed work on this topic will [284778] 273W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 274W

Bill Rammell: As at 9 July 2009, the required and Reserve Forces actual number of pilots in the armed forces for the Nimrod MR2 aircraft is provided in the table. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Aircraft type—Nimrod MR2 for Defence what contributions (a) the Department for Number Communities and Local Government and (b) local Required pilots 58 authorities have made to his Department’s Supporting Actual pilots 46 Britain’s Reservists and Employers campaign. [286566] The reason for the variation is that there is a temporary Mr. Kevan Jones: The Department for Communities increase in the number of pilots required, as the MR2 and Local Government have endorsed SaBRE’s (Supporting Force transitions to MRA4, and as personnel are retrained Britain’s Reservists and Employers) public statement of and transferred to the MRA4. support. Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for To date, 222 local authorities have confirmed details Defence what the (a) required and (b) actual number of their supportive policies to SaBRE and endorsed of pilots in the armed forces is for the GR4 aircraft. SaBRE’s public statement of support. A list of these [284779] 222 supportive authorities can be found at: www.sabre.mod.uk Bill Rammell: The required and actual number of pilots in the armed forces for the Tornado GR4 aircraft is given in the following table: Service Personnel and Veterans Agency: Prisoners

Aircraft type Required pilots Actual pilots Mr. Carmichael: To ask the Secretary of State for Tornado 134 129 Defence (1) what funding his Department has allocated GR4 to the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s Prison In-Reach programme in each year since the The variation is due to a number of factors such as programme’s inception; [286067] promotion, assignment of pilots to other aircraft or ground posts, medical downgrading or leaving the Service. (2) how many prisoners have (a) participated in and (b) been otherwise assessed by the Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s Prison In-Reach programme in RAF Chilmark: Finance each prison in each year since the programme’s inception; and what the (a) name and (b) location is of Robert Key: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence each prison which has participated. [286072] how much expenditure in each cost category was incurred in respect of the former RAF Chilmark site in Mr. Kevan Jones: The Veterans Prison-In-Reach initiative 2008-09. [286240] aims to raise awareness among ex-service offenders and their families about the help and assistance that is Mr. Kevan Jones: Those elements of the former RAF available to them. The Ministry of Justice and the Chilmark Site that have not been sold are managed by MOD are working together with the ex-service charities, Defence Estates (DE)—the Ministry of Defence including The Royal British Legion, SSAFA-Forces organisation with responsibility for the defence estate. Help and Combat Stress, to publicise the initiative and In financial year 2008-09, DE incurred the following to target better those who need assistance. I will arrange costs: for copies of our new leaflet and poster publicising the Veterans Prison-In-Reach initiative to be placed in the Cost Category Details Cost incurred (£) Library of the House. Land Contamination Hydrogeological Site 5,000 The Service Personnel and Veterans Agency (SPVA) investigation Welfare Service has the capability to respond to referrals as Ecology/ Conservation Installation of a bat grille 15,000 across a mine entrance part of their normal business. Consequently, no specific Legal Fees For work relating to parts of 415 funding has been provided under this initiative. site previously sold On contacting the SPVA, prison authorities (welfare) and ex-service offenders are referred to the Veterans Raiding Craft: Navy Welfare Service which has the capability to offer help and advice to them and to their families. The ex-service Dr. Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence charities also provide support including financial assistance, how many raiding craft there have been in the Royal help with rent as well as clothing, training, relocation, employment and welfare visits to veterans and to their Navy in each year since 1997. [284533] families. Mr. Quentin Davies: There are currently 111 raiding Statistics on the number of offenders who are ex-service, craft in service with the Royal Navy. Detailed records the number who contact the SPVA, and the prison for each year since 1997 are not held centrally and could establishments they come from are not held centrally be provided only at disproportionate cost. From the and could be provided only at disproportionate cost. limited information available, however, it is estimated We are working closely with the Ministry of Justice to that there have been between 111 and 120 boats in produce up-to-date and authoritative data on the number service in each year since 1997. of our veterans in prison. 275W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 276W

UK Health Departments Partnership Board: Meetings membership drawn from MOD, the UK Health Departments and the NHS. Government Ministers do Willie Rennie: To ask the Secretary of State for not attend. Defence on how many occasions his Department has The Partnership Board has met on eight occasions been represented at a meeting of the UK Health since January 2007. Departments Partnership Board in each year since 2007; and which (a) Ministers and (b) officials in his Attendees at individual meetings will include both Department have attended each such meeting. [283177] standing board members as well as other departmental officials, who are invited on an individual basis for Mr. Kevan Jones: The joint MOD/UK Health discussion of specific agenda items. The following table Departments Partnership Board meets three times a shows which individual posts have been present at each year. It is chaired alternately by senior officials from meeting, and includes both standing members and ad MOD and the Department of Health, and has a hoc attendees:

2007 2008 2009 1 Feb 12 Jun 29 Oct 1 Feb 3 Jun 7 Oct 10 Feb 16 Jun

Joint Chairs DMSD—DCDS (Health) Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present DH—Chief Executive Sheffield Present — Present Present Present Present Present Present Teaching Hospitals

MOD attendees DMSD—Surgeon General Present Present Present Present Present — — — DMSD—ACDS (Health) ————Present—Present Present DMSD—Director Strategic Change ———————Present Army Medical Directorate—Chief of ———————Present Staff Army Primary Heath Care Service— ———————Present Director Defence Dental Services—Chief of —————Present Present Present Staff Defence Dental Services—AD Clinical — — Present ————— RN—Asst Chief of Staff—Medical ———————Present RAF—Chief of Staff—Health ———————Present DMETA—Chief Executive — — Present Present Present — Present — DMETA—Director Change Present Present —————— Programme DMSD—Asst Director Information — Present Present ————— Management DMSD—Asst Director Nursing — Present —————— DMSD—Asst Director — — Present — Present — — — DMSD—Asst Director Armed Forces ——Present————— Pay DMSD—Asst Director Resource and — Present —————— Plans DMSD— Asst Director Secretariat Present Present Present Present Present — — Present DMSD—Cross Government Lead Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present (Health) DMSD—DMICP ——————Present Present DMSD—Director General Healthcare Present Present — Present ———— DMSD—Director Healthcare Present Present Present Present Present — Present — DMSD—Director Medical Finance Present Present Present Present — Present — Present and Secretariat DMSD— DMICP Project Director —————Present Present Present DMSD-DMICP—CfH Project ———————— Manager DMSD—Secretariat 1 — — — Present ———— DMSD—Secretariat lb Present Present Present Present Present Present Present — DMSD—DCDS (Health)/MA Present — Present ————— DMSD—Surgeon General/MA Present ——————— Land Command— S01 Org Plan ————Present——— National Employer Advisory Board— — — — Present — — Present — Chairman Reserve Forces and Cadets Division— ————Present——— Capability Policy Reserve Forces and Cadets Division— Present — Present Present — Present Present — Deputy Director Operations Service Personnel Command —————Present — — Paper—RN 277W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 278W

2007 2008 2009 1 Feb 12 Jun 29 Oct 1 Feb 3 Jun 7 Oct 10 Feb 16 Jun

Service Personnel Command Paper— — — — Present Present — — — Team Leader Service Personnel Policy—Medical Present Present —————— SP Po-l—Service Community ——Present————— Support—Asst Director Veterans Policy Unit—Director — — Present Present Present Present — Present Joint Medical Command—Commander ———————Present Defence Medical Group

UK Health Departments/NHS attendees DH—Assistant Senior Partnership Present Present —————— Co-ordinator DH—Associate Chief Medical Officer — — Present Present — — Present — DH—Cross Government Lead (Health) — — Present Present Present Present Present Present DH—Deputy Director of Provider — Present —————— Development DH—Director of Non-Medical ——————Present — Education, Pay and Pensions DH—Director General Policy and ——Present————Present Strategy Directorate DH—Head Emergency Preparedness — — Present Present ———— DH—Head of Darzi Review — — Present ————— DH—Darzi Review Team ————Present——— DH—Head of Primary Dental Services — — Present ————— DH—Head of Social Care ————Present——— (representative) DH—Head of Social Care Policy and ———Present———— Innovation DH—Liaison Home Counties Present Present Present ————— (Connecting for Health) DH—Stakeholder and Partner — — — Present Present — — Present Relationships DH—Senior Advisor on Mental Health — Present —————— Foundation Trust Policy and Implementation DH—Senior Information Officer — Present —————— DH—Senior Partnership Co-ordinator Present Present Present Present Present Present Present Present DH—Senior Policy Adviser, Mental Present Present —————— Health Programme Frimley Park NHS Hospital Trust— Present Present Present — — Present Present — Chief Executive Frimley Park NHS Trust—Deputy ————Present—Present — Chief Executive Hull Teaching PCT—Chief Executive Present Present Present Present Present — Present — National Assembly for Wales—Chief Present Present —————— Nursing Officer National Assembly for Wales— ————Present——— Community, Primary Care and Health Services Policy Division National Assembly for Wales— —————Present Present Present Department of Health and Social Services National Assembly for Wales—Policy ——PresentPresent———— Manager NHS Connecting for Health ——————Present Present NHS Connecting for Health—Group ——————Present — Programme Director Northern Ireland Assembly—Chief ——Present————— Medical Officer Northern Ireland Assembly—Director ———————Present Primary Care Regional Director of Public Health Present Present — —- ———— (South Central Strategic Health Authority) Regional Director of Public Health ————PresentPresent — — (South West) Scottish Executive—Armed Forces and ——————Present — Veterans Team Policy Adviser Scottish Executive—Deputy Chief Present Present Present Present ———— Medical Officer 279W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 280W

2007 2008 2009 1 Feb 12 Jun 29 Oct 1 Feb 3 Jun 7 Oct 10 Feb 16 Jun

Scottish Executive—Senior Medical ————PresentPresent Present — Officer Scottish Executive—Armed Forces and —————Present — — Veterans Team Leader Surrey PCT—Commissioning and ——————Present — Contract Lead University College London Hospital— — Present — — Present — Present — Director Human Resources Wiltshire PCT—Director of Public — Present Present ————— Health Wiltshire PCT—Public Health — — Present ————— Wiltshire PCT—Public Health — — Present ————— Key: DMSD = Defence Medical Services Department (now Surgeon General’s Department) DMETA = Defence Medical Education and Training Agency (now Joint Medical Command) DMICP = Defence Medical Information Capability Programme PCT = Primary Care Trust

WORK AND PENSIONS Children: Maintenance

Atos Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) on how many and what Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Work proportion of applications for maintenance the Child and Pensions what the cost was of medical assessments Support Agency and its successor made decisions on carried out by Atos Health on behalf of her the award of maintenance within three months of Department from 1 March 2008 to 28 February 2009. receipt in each year since 1993; [278258] [284572] (2) how many applications for child support made to Jonathan Shaw: The Department for Work and Pensions the Child Support Agency resulted in no maintenance re-awarded Atos Origin IT Services Ltd., trading as calculation being made because one of the parents Atos Healthcare, a new contract to perform medical could not be identified in each year since 1993. [278458] services on behalf of the Department from 1 September 2005. Helen Goodman [holding answer 8 June 2009]: The The total cost of these services from 1 March 2008 to Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is February 2009 was £80,589,204. This figure not only responsible for the child maintenance system. I have covers the total number of examinations undertaken therefore asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner across all benefits, but also costs relating to written and to write to the hon. Member with the information verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative requested. costs, investment in new technology and other service Letter from Stephen Geraghty: improvements. In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the The individual cost of medical assessments carried Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child out by Atos Healthcare is commercially sensitive Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance information. To disclose this information would prejudice and Enforcement Commission. the interest of Atos Healthcare and the Department’s You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, on future dealings with Atos Healthcare or other service how many and what proportion of applications for maintenance providers. the Child Support Agency and its successor made decisions on the award of maintenance within three months of receipt in each Carer’s Allowance: Essex year since 1993. [278258]; and You also asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work how many applications for child support made to the Child and Pensions how many people were receiving carer’s Support Agency resulted in no maintenance calculation being allowance in (a) Essex and (b) Castle Point on the made because one of the parents could not be identified in each latest date for which figures are available. [282063] year since 1993. [278458] The Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission regularly Jonathan Shaw: The available information is in the publish information on the time taken to clear maintenance following table: applications in Table 3 of the Child Support Agency Quarterly Summary of Statistics (QSS). The latest copy of which is available Carer’s allowance: Cases in payment in Essex local authority area and Castle in the House of Commons library online and at: Point parliamentary constituency, November 2008 www.childmaintenance.org/publications/statistics.html Number The latest figures show that 82% of applications received in Essex 9,140 December 2008 were cleared within 12 weeks, compared to just Castle Point 710 30% cleared in 12 weeks by March 2005, the year before the Notes: Operational Improvement Plan was introduced. 1. Figures are rounded to the nearest 10. However the additional information that you have requested is 2. Totals show the number of people in receipt of an allowance, and exclude people with entitlement where the payment has been suspended. not regularly published and is therefore provided in the attached Source: table. This shows the number and proportion of current scheme DWP Information Directorate Work and Pensions Longitudinal Study. applications that were cleared in each financial year within 12 weeks 281W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 282W of receipt. This information is only available for current scheme Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Work cases and so can not be reported prior to 2003, when the current and Pensions what account the Child Maintenance and scheme was introduced. Enforcement Commission takes of shared custody It should be noted that since the beginning of the Operational arrangements in determining levels of child Improvement Plan in 2006, the volume of uncleared new scheme maintenance. [281842] applications has reduced from 220,600 to 49,200, a fall of 78%. The information you also requested on the number of applications Helen Goodman: The Child Maintenance and made to the Child Support Agency that resulted in no maintenance Enforcement Commission is responsible for the child calculation being made because one of the parents could not be maintenance system. I have therefore asked the Child identified, is not available as this information is not recorded for Maintenance Commissioner to write to the hon. Member management information purposes. with the information requested. I hope you find this answer helpful. Letter from Stephen Geraghty: Number of applications cleared each year within 12 weeks and as a percentage of In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the claims received Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission, the Secretary Number cleared Number cleared as a percentage of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance within 12 weeks of cases received in year Commissioner. The Child Support Agency is now the responsibility 2003-04 75,200 28 of the Child Maintenance Enforcement Commission. 2004-05 88,600 32 You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what 2005-06 138,200 47 account the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission 2006-07 161,000 60 takes of shared custody arrangements in determining levels of child maintenance. [281842] 2007-08 216,600 79 2008-09 143,300 84 Where an application for child maintenance is made, and care of the child or children subject to that application is shared Notes: 1. Only includes current scheme cases. Data not available prior to March 2003. between the parent with care and non-resident parent, the Child 2. Cleared applications are those that have had a maintenance calculation Support Agency may in some cases reduce the amount of child carried out and a payment arrangement between the parent with care and maintenance payable as a result. non-resident parent put in place; a maintenance calculation carried out and nil liability established; a parent with care has been identified as claiming Good Different rules apply to the calculation of child maintenance Cause or is subject to a Reduced Benefit Decision; the application is identified liabilities, dependant on whether the application for maintenance as being a change of circumstance on an existing case; or the application has was effective before the 3rd of March 2003 (such cases are been closed. referred to as the ″old scheme″) or received on or after this date 3. Figures have been rounded to the nearest 100. (and referred to as the ″current scheme″). 4. Includes clerical cases. 5. Number of cases cleared within 12 weeks expressed as a percentage of In the old scheme, the amount of maintenance that a non-resident applications received. parent should pay will be reduced if the child or children spends 104 nights or more (on average, throughout the year) in their care. In the current scheme, a non-resident parent’s maintenance liability Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Secretary of State for is reduced if the child or children spends an average of 52 nights Work and Pensions how many children are receiving or more in their care during the year. maintenance payments calculated by the Child Support I hope you find this answer helpful. Agency; and in how many such cases the non-resident parent is in arrears. [280026] Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what steps the Child Support Helen Goodman [holding answer 15 June 2009]: The Agency is taking to recalculate child maintenance Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is liabilities for non resident parents whose income is responsible for the child maintenance system. I have reduced through loss of overtime, short time working therefore asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner or working without pay; how quickly such to write to the hon. Member with the information recalculations are performed on average; and if she will requested. make a statement. [284231] Letter from Stephen Geraghty: Helen Goodman [holding answer 3 July 2009]: The In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the Child Maintenance and Enforcement Commission is Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive responsible for the child maintenance system. I have reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child therefore asked the Child Maintenance Commissioner Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance to write to the hon. Member with the information and Enforcement Commission. requested. You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, how Letter from Stephen Geraghty: many children are receiving maintenance payments calculated by the Child Support Agency; and in how many such cases the In reply to your recent Parliamentary Question about the non-resident parent is in arrears. [280026] Child Support Agency, the Secretary of State promised a substantive reply from the Child Maintenance Commissioner as the Child It should be noted that the majority of child maintenance Support Agency is now the responsibility of the Child Maintenance cases will have some arrears. In particular all new cases will and Enforcement Commission. accrue arrears unless the non-resident parent provides support while the liability is being assessed. The Agency estimates that You asked the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, what around a quarter of all cases with arrears owe less than £170 steps the Child Support Agency is taking to recalculate child which is less than two monthly maintenance payments. maintenance liabilities for non resident parents whose income is reduced through loss of overtime short time working or working As at March 2009, 593,100 cases were receiving maintenance, without pay; how quickly such recalculations are performed; and from which 779,800 children benefited. Of these 593,100 cases, if she will make a statement. [284231] there are approximately 436,600 cases where the non-resident The Child Support Agency will reassess the maintenance liability parent has arrears outstanding. from the point at which either parent informs the Agency that the I hope you find this answer helpful. non-resident parent’s income has changed. Although the Agency 283W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 284W may require further information such as wage slips to complete the reassessment, the date from which the reassessment takes Electricity (kWh) Gas (kWh) effect will remain the date that the Agency was notified of the 2006-07 328,992,384 316,398,341 change. Information on the time taken to reassess individual cases 2007-08 299,091,966 282,711,424 from the date of notification including gathering the required evidence is not available. Final information for 2008-09 is not yet available. It should be noted that not all changes in income will result in a reassessment of the child maintenance due. In cases assessed Departmental Procurement under the current scheme the Agency may not change the amount of child maintenance if the non-resident parent’s regular net weekly income changes by less than 5%. For cases assessed under Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work the old scheme, the Agency may not make a change of less than and Pensions what changes have been made to her £10 a week, or in cases where there is ’protected income’ only Department’s (a) office equipment and (b) stationery where amount the non-resident parent would have to pay would purchasing policy in the last six months. [285318] increase by £5 a week or more, or reduce by £1 a week or more. I hope you find this answer helpful. Jim Knight: There have been no changes in DWP office equipment or stationery purchasing policy in the Council Tax Benefits last six months. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Disability Living Allowance for Work and Pensions what the take-up rate of council tax benefit was in each local authority in the latest Mrs. May: To ask the Secretary of State for Work period for which figures are available. [284096] and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 3 June 2009, Official Report, column 541W, on disability living Helen Goodman: Estimates of eligibility to council allowance, at what level information is recorded on the tax benefit are not available below the level of Great number of people claiming disability living allowance Britain. where the main disabling condition is recorded as The latest estimates of the take-up rates and the obesity. [283621] number of those entitled to but not receiving council tax benefit are published in the report ″Income Related Jonathan Shaw: In October 2008 the set of codes Benefits Estimates of Take-Up in 2007-08″, copies of used to record the disabling condition for disability which are available in the Library. living allowance changed. Primary and Secondary codes replaced codes for Care and Mobility and more fine Departmental Contracts detail was introduced with respect to disabling condition. Prior to October 2008, there were fewer than 50 categories Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for Work for disabling condition, but now there are over 500. and Pensions pursuant to the answer of 17 June 2009, This information is available for statistical analysis from Official Report, column 355W, on department pay, to November 2008. which employers her Department’s contracts have been However, codes for existing disability living allowance (a) let and (b) sub-let where the location of claimants were not updated, so the number of cases employment is not exclusive to London in the last five with new codes is extremely small compared to the total years; what the nature of the work undertaken on each numbers in receipt of disability living allowance. It is, such contract is; what information her Department therefore, not yet possible to produce an estimate of the holds on the grade and location of employment of total number of people claiming disability living allowance those working on such contracts; what the duration of with a main disabling condition of obesity. each such contract is; and what agreements on union recognition have been reached in relation to each such Future Jobs Fund contract. [285492] Ms Buck: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Jim Knight: The DWP currently has over 1,000 contracts Pensions how much funding from the Future Jobs with external suppliers for a wide range of goods and Fund has been allocated to each (a) regional internal and external services. The Department does development agency and (b) local authority; and what not hold this information centrally and could be obtained targets have been set for each such body in respect of only at disproportionate costs. the creation of new jobs. [286235] Departmental Energy Jim Knight: The Future Jobs Fund operates a competitive bidding process, with local authorities, partnerships Gregory Barker: To ask the Secretary of State for and others able to bid to create jobs through the fund. Work and Pensions how much (a) electricity and (b) We are not ring-fencing funding, or setting targets for gas was used (i) on her Department’s estate and (ii) by any particular region or area. However greater emphasis her Department’s agencies in each year from 2004-05 will be given to bids from areas of high unemployment to 2008-09. [280523] and with high populations of eligible young people. Helen Goodman: The following table shows energy Hazardous Substances: Storage consumption information for DWP and its agencies: Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Electricity (kWh) Gas (kWh) and Pensions what (a) large-scale petrol storage depots and (b) onshore non-nuclear major hazard 2004-05 328,376,312 363,437,092 installations there are in (i) England and (ii) Essex. 2005-06 327,460,763 348,427,210 [280663] 285W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 286W

Jonathan Shaw [holding answer 19 June 2009]: The New Deal Schemes following table shows the number of large-scale petrol storage depots and the number of other major hazard David Taylor: To ask the Secretary of State for Work sites subject to the Control of Major Accident Hazards and Pensions what the (a) maximum and (b) average Regulations 1999 (as amended) (’COMAH’) in Essex payment of the New Deal Allowance was to people and England respectively. who had reached the test trading phase of the New Deal in the most recent period for which figures are Number available. [274342] Large-scale petrol storage depots Jim Knight: Test-trading allows the customer to stay Essex 5 on benefits for a short period while they launch their England 41 business. This can last for a maximum of six months. The amount of new deal allowance paid to individual COMAH major hazard sites customers is equivalent to their previous benefit rate Essex 31 (usually jobseeker’s allowance) plus a new deal premium England 893 of £15.38 a week. Pathways to Work Tables listing the relevant sites have been placed in the Library. Mr. Rooney: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Medical Assessors and Pensions how many participants there have been for each of the Pathways to Work programme providers since inception of the contracts; how many of Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Work these (a) did not attend initial interview, (b) were and Pensions what mechanisms her Department has in referred back to a decision maker for consideration of place to monitor the accuracy and quality of work a sanction and (c) were placed in sustained carried out for her Department by medical assessors. employment. [285521] [284573] Jim Knight [holding answer 9 July 2009]: Official Jonathan Shaw: The contract between DWP and statistics on the number of participants in Pathways to Atos Healthcare contains a number of quality targets Work are available up to January 2009, these are published to measure the performance of health care professionals on the Department’s website at: 1 (HCPs) which are monitored on a monthly basis. Quality http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/workingage/ib_ref_p2w.asp and accuracy is regularly monitored through a variety Information is not available by provider. Breakdowns of other methods including monthly management are available by district. Data on starts are available up information, customer satisfaction surveys and feedback to January 2009. Data on job entries are available up to from complaints. The work of all HCPs is subjected to October 2008 but no data are available to show sustained quality audit which is conducted by experienced medical jobs. Starts and job entries in each Pathways district auditors within Atos Healthcare. The quality of Atos have been placed in the Library. Healthcare’s audit is validated by senior medical auditors The Department does not hold official statistics on from Atos Healthcare and doctors working for the failed to attend interviews or referrals back to decision Chief Medical Adviser to the DWP. makers. 1 The term health care professionals (HCP) covers both registered doctors and registered nurses who conduct medical assessments Pension Credit on behalf of the DWP. Dr. Cable: To ask the Secretary of State for Work Tom Brake: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the and Pensions what minimum qualifications are number of people aged (a) between 60 and 79 and (b) required of medical assessors working for her 80 years old and over who are eligible for pension Department. [284574] credit. [285827]

Jonathan Shaw: The contract between DWP and Angela Eagle: The information requested is not available. Atos Healthcare specifies minimum recruitment standards Pensions that all approved health care professionals (HCPs)1 must be fully registered with the General Medical Council Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for or Nursing and Midwifery Council without restrictions Work and Pensions what the absolute value of the or conditions and complete a course of training in basic state pension for (a) single pensioners and (b) disability assessment medicine approved by the DWP pensioner couples has been in each year since 1997-98. Chief Medical Adviser (CMA). In addition they must [285777] have a minimum of three years post registration experience. In individual cases, solely at the discretion of the CMA, Angela Eagle: The information is in the table. the requirement that no conditions be attached to registration and the requirement that health care £ professionals have a minimum of three years post Weekly basic state pension Weekly basic state pension for single pensioner for pensioner couple registration experience may be waived. In addition all HCPs must be approved by the CMA to the DWP. 1997-98 62.45 99.80 1 The term health care professionals (HCP) covers both registered 1998-99 64.70 103.40 doctors and registered nurses who conduct medical assessments 1999-2000 66.75 106.70 on behalf of the DWP. 2000-01 67.50 107.90 287W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 288W

Remploy £ Weekly basic state pension Weekly basic state pension for single pensioner for pensioner couple Mr. Robathan: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions what her Department’s role is in 2001-02 72.50 115.90 respect of (a) setting the levels of and (b) paying (i) 2002-03 75.50 120.70 salaries and (ii) bonuses at Remploy. [284749] 2003-04 77.45 123.80 2004-05 79.60 127.25 2005-06 82.05 131.20 Jonathan Shaw: The Department is responsible for 2006-07 84.25 134.75 recruiting and setting the salaries for the chair, chief 2007-08 87.30 139.60 executive officer and non-executive directors of Remploy. 2008-09 90.70 145.05 The setting of salaries of all other employees is the 2009-10 95.25 152.30 responsibility of the company. Note: As with all non-departmental public bodies, the There are no singles or couples rates as such, the basic state pension is an Department approves the annual pay remit for Remploy individual benefit. However, the maximum Category A rate is commonly referred to as the “singles rate”, and the combination of the maximum Category and the overall remuneration package must meet the A rate for a husband and a maximum Category B rate set at (60 per cent. of Treasury civil service pay guidance. maximum Category A) for his wife is commonly referred to as the “couples rate”. The Department has approved the performance related pay schemes for the Remploy Executive where targets are now closely linked to achieving key objectives in the Personal Accounts Scheme: Finance five-year modernisation plan. Performance related pay schemes for all other employees are set by the company. Mr. Waterson: To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (1) what estimate she has made of the Right to Bid Scheme cost of establishing personal accounts schemes; and what proportion of such costs she expects to be Mr. Rooney: To ask the Secretary of State for Work recouped from scheme participants; [284123] and Pensions which Minister has lead responsibility for (2) how much grant-in-aid paid the Personal the Right to Bid scheme; what officials in her Accounts Delivery Authority has received from her Department are working on the scheme; and how many Department in each financial year since its inception; applications to the scheme have been received to date. [284495] [284124] (3) what expenditure the Personal Accounts Delivery Jim Knight [holding answer 6 July 2009]: I have lead Authority has incurred in each financial year since its responsibility for Right to Bid. Alan Cave, DWP inception. [284038] Employment Group Delivery Director, is the lead official for the Right to Bid scheme; he is supported by a central Angela Eagle: Revenues from membership charges team which administer and manage Right to Bid. are intended to cover the cost of personal accounts in The Right to Bid initiative was introduced on 1 January the long run, including the cost of setting-up the scheme. 2009 and we are pleased to say that we have had a All cost estimates are commercially sensitive until the significant amount of interest. As of 6 July 2009, 91 Personal Accounts Delivery Authority has completed bids have been received. its procurement process. Publishing these estimates now could compromise the Authority’s ability to get value Social Security Benefits for money. The following table shows how much funding the Andrew Selous: To ask the Secretary of State for Authority has received from the Department and its Work and Pensions for what reason disability living expenditure in each financial year since its inception. allowance is disregarded for the purposes of calculating child maintenance; for what reason war pensions are £ million assessed in calculating child maintenance; and if she 2009- will make a statement. [284228] 2007-08 2008-09 101

Grant in aid funding—advice to 3.300 18.485 0.464 Helen Goodman [holding answer 3 July 2009]: Child Government on their pension reform maintenance is based on the financial circumstances of programme parents. State benefits which vary in accordance with a Loan funding—for setting up the — 5.623 5.836 person’s financial circumstances (such as war pensions) scheme form part of their overall income and as such are PADA expenditure 1.996 30.958 5.504 therefore taken into account when the maintenance 1 As at end of May 2009. Notes: liability is calculated. However, the level of income 1. Expenditure figures include capital expenditure plus non-cash depreciation required to qualify for a war pension is such that the costs. maximum the vast majority of non-resident parents 2. Grant in aid and loan figures represent cash paid to the Authority from the Department within each year. who are on a war pension would have to pay is £5. That 3. Expenditure figures are recorded on an accruals basis i.e. include costs that is the case for all of those on the current child maintenance have been incurred but not yet paid and non-cash costs such as depreciation. scheme. Therefore expenditure figures do not equal the grant in aid and loan figures. 4. Expenditure for 2008-09 exceeded the funding PADA received in that year. Disability living allowance is a standard payment The difference was, in the main, funded by cash balances carried forward from which, beside the qualifying criteria, i.e. the nature of the previous year and movements in working capital. 5. Figures for 2008-09 and 2009-10 represent pre-audited outturn and may the disability, takes no account of a person’s financial change. circumstances; it is only the nature of the disability that 289W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 290W is a factor and it is specifically designed to enable Social Security Benefits: Overseas Residence someone to cope with the extra expense that disability imposes on them. It would not therefore be appropriate Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for to include such payments within the child maintenance Work and Pensions what estimate she has made of the calculation. amount wrongly paid in benefits to UK nationals resident abroad in the last 12 months. [276150] Social Security Benefits: Fraud Helen Goodman: Between October 2007 and September Andrew Rosindell: To ask the Secretary of State for 2008 an estimated £45 million was wrongly paid to Work and Pensions how many (a) court cases and (b) customers who continued to claim benefits to which convictions there have been for benefit fraud in each of they were not entitled while they were abroad. the last five years. [272721] In order to qualify for DWP means tested benefits, the customer must be habitually resident in the UK. Lady Hermon: To ask the Secretary of State for The benefit rules, for some benefits, allow customers to Work and Pensions how many people have been (a) travel abroad for a certain period of time without it interviewed on suspicion, (b) charged with and (c) affecting their benefit entitlement. The estimates used convicted of benefit fraud offences in each of the last in this PQ relate to customers that have exceeded this five years. [273049] period of time abroad. We do not capture customer nationality as part of Helen Goodman: Information relating to how many the claims process and are therefore unable to provide people have been (a) interviewed on suspicion and (b) specific figures for UK nationals. charged with benefit fraud offences is not available. The available information on the number of people Stephen Hammond: To ask the Secretary of State for interviewed under caution (for DWP administered benefits) Work and Pensions (1) what estimate she has made of and the number of people that DWP has presented to the amount of benefits wrongly claimed by UK court for prosecution for benefit fraud offences is detailed nationals resident abroad in each of the last five years. in the following tables. Information on local authority [277838] prosecutions and convictions is not yet available for (2) how much was reclaimed from UK nationals 2008-09. resident abroad for benefits wrongly claimed in each of DWP administered benefits the last five years; [277839] Number of (3) what the administrative costs of reclaiming Number of Number convictions for interviews held prosecuted for benefit fraud benefits wrongly claimed by UK nationals resident under caution benefit fraud offences abroad were in each of the last five years. [277840]

2004-05 — 10,295 9,219 2005-06 — 10,262 8,740 Helen Goodman: We do not capture customer nationality 2006-07 — 8,964 6,861 as part of the claims process and are therefore unable to 2007-08 — 10,274 7,745 provide specific figures for UK nationals. 2008-09 44,105 8,840 6,700 The only available information on the amounts wrongly Notes: paid to customers who continued to claim benefits to 1. 2008-09 is the first year in which interview under caution data have been which they were not entitled while they were abroad is collected. 2. The figure provided on the number of interviews held under caution may provided for each of the last five years in the following include the same person more than once. This is because the same person may table. have been interviewed under caution more than once. Sources: 1. Interviews under caution data are taken from Fraud Referral and Intervention Amount wrongly paid (£ million) Management System (FRAIMS). 2. Prosecution and Conviction data for England and Wales are provided by April 2004 to March 2005 44 DWP/DH Legal Group. April 2005 to March 2006 40 3. Prosecution and Conviction data for Scotland are taken from Fraud Information April 2006 to March 2007 96 by Sector (FIBS) and FRAIMS. April 2007 to March 2008 63 Local authority administered benefits October 2007 to September 2008 45 Number prosecuted Number of convictions for Notes: for benefit fraud benefit fraud offences In order to qualify for DWP means tested benefits, the customer must be habitually resident in the UK. The benefit rules, for some benefits, allow 2003-04 4,601 3,747 customers to travel abroad for a certain period of time without it affecting their benefit entitlement. The estimates used in this PQ relate to customers that have 2004-05 5,544 4,688 exceeded this period of time abroad. The information about how much was 2005-06 7,717 6,234 reclaimed from UK nationals resident abroad for benefits wrongly claimed in 2006-07 6,023 5,860 each of the last five years and the administrative costs of reclaiming those benefits is not available. 2007-08 6,611 6,493 Source: Notes: National Statistics 1. The decision to prosecute is taken by the appropriate local authority 2. Figures from HOBOD are subject to revision when new or revised data are received from local authorities and uploaded by the Department. Social Security Benefits: Research 3. Data on the number of interviews held under caution have not been included in this table because 2008-09 is the first year in which interview under caution data have been collected and information on local authority prosecutions and Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Work convictions is not yet available for 2008-09. and Pensions what research her Department is Source: Housing Benefits Operational Database (HOBOD) using local authority housing undertaking into the effects of consumer debt on the benefit administrative returns. benefits system. [284731] 291W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 292W

Jim Knight: My Department part funds the Wealth matter for the sentencing court. All aggravating and and Assets Survey. The survey is a longitudinal survey mitigating factors and the defendant’s ability to pay will that collects information about the economic well-being be taken into account. of households and individuals including their assets Prosecution is only one of a number of interventions and debts, pension provision, how wealth is distributed that the Environment Agency employs and other and factors that may affect financial planning. The enforcement tools will also have some effect. The survey panel is made up of 32,000 households who are Environment Agency publishes an annual Spotlight interviewed once every two years. The first full wave report which provides details of the performance of findings are due to be released at the end of 2009, with regulated industry sectors and the relevant enforcement the second wave currently being undertaken. action taken. The 2008 report can be viewed at: In relation to debt, the Wealth and Assets Survey http://publications.environment-agency.gov.uk/pdf/ collects information on household non-mortgage debt GEHO0708BOFX-E-E.pdf?lang=_e and on respondents’ attitudes to debt. The survey also collects information on the benefits and tax credits that respondents are in receipt of. The Office for National Statistics is conducting the CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES survey which is partly funded by my Department along Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill with several other Government Departments such as BIS, HMT, HMRC, CLG, the Scottish Government and the Cabinet Office. John Penrose: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the evidential Winter Fuel Payments basis was for the statement that, Costs to existing recognised Awarding Bodies are expected to be neutral, on average, in the Impact Assessment of the Mark Williams: To ask the Secretary of State for Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Bill Work and Pensions when she plans to announce the relating to the creation of the awarding body regulator, dates of the qualifying week for the Winter Fuel Ofqual and the QCDA. [285500] Payment; and if she will make a statement. [285201] Mr. Iain Wright: The provisions in the Apprenticeships, Angela Eagle: The qualifying week is set by regulations Skills, Children and Learning Bill to create Ofqual have as the week beginning on the third Monday in September. been widely welcomed by awarding bodies and others. So, for winter 2009-10, it is the week commencing The costs of the reforms will depend in large part on 21 September 2009. how awarding bodies respond to the new regulatory regime. The move to a more strategic approach to Pollution: Fines regulation—so that Ofqual will not need to accredit every qualification—should reduce awarding body costs. Martin Horwood: To ask the Secretary of State for But Ofqual’s market regulation role, with its strong Work and Pensions how much has been levied in fines powers to ensure value for money in the provision of by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) against (a) qualifications, may increase the demands on awarding companies, (b) local authorities and (c) individuals bodies; and awarding bodies may also have to develop for offences committed in relation to pollution of each relationships with the new Qualifications and Curriculum type (i) in total and (ii) in each region in each year since Development Agency, which will support the development 1997; and what assessment she has made of the of qualifications. Overall, our best assessment is therefore effectiveness of fines levied by the HSE on polluters in that the impact of the plans on existing awarding bodies preventing further incidences of pollution on the part will be cost-neutral. of (A) those upon whom fines have been imposed and (B) others. [286466] Children: Day Care

Jim Fitzpatrick [holding answer 13 July 2009]: Ihave Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for been asked to reply. Children, Schools and Families how many registered This matter falls within the remit of the Environment childcare places for children under eight years old there Agency; the Health and Safety Executive does not levy were in Tamworth constituency in each year since 1997. pollution-related fines. [286335] The relevant Environment Agency national enforcement Dawn Primarolo: The information requested is not database reports have been placed in the Library of the available below local authority level. House. The national enforcement database came online in April 1999. Data are therefore not available for 1997, Annette Brooke: To ask the Secretary of State for 1998 and the first three months of 1999. Children, Schools and Families pursuant to his answer The national enforcement database has categories for of 23 June 2009, Official Report, column 819W, on individuals and companies, but local authorities are children: day care, what his definition is of the term classified with “other legal entities”. The reports provided philosophical convictions contained in the Early Years here titled “other” therefore include local authorities Foundation Stage exemption document. [286841] along with other non-commercial corporate entities. The Environment Agency will prosecute a serious Dawn Primarolo: Parents may apply to their early pollution offence only when prosecution is considered years provider for an exemption in respect of their to be in the public interest. The level of fine imposed is a child, where they consider that the Early YearsFoundation 293W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 294W

Stage learning and development requirements, or some areas that are delivered can be either completely new element of them, cannot be reconciled with their religious areas or existing areas which are significantly refurbished. or philosophical convictions. Redbridge is one of 43 playbuilder authorities across The term ‘religious and philosophical convictions’ is England who began receiving play funding from April a concept that is understood in legal terms and appears 2008, as part of the first wave of the play capital in case law, such as that on the European convention on investment. human rights. It refers to a cogent and serious belief-set or conviction worthy of respect in a democratic society. Class Sizes: York

Children: Protection Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what the average pupil Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for to teacher ratio in (a) primary and (b) secondary Children, Schools and Families what steps his schools in York was in each year since 1996-97. Department is taking to improve child protection [285703] services in (a) Hemel Hempstead constituency, (b) Dacorum and (c) Hertfordshire. [284739] Mr. Coaker: I refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 26 November 2008, Official Report, column 1837W. Dawn Primarolo: Ofsted’s 2007 Joint Area Review of Local authority figures are not yet available for 2009, Hertfordshire county council’s children’s services judged but will be published later this summer. services for safeguarding and looked after children to be inadequate. An external support team worked with Connexions the council to improve performance management and safe staffing arrangements. The Department for Children, Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for Schools and Families also part-funded an interim head Children, Schools and Families what recent assessment of fieldwork services for a period of six months. After he has made of the effectiveness of services provided close monitoring, the council exited intervention following through Connexions. [285424] the 2008 annual performance assessment, in which Hertfordshire was judged to be adequate for ‘Staying Mr. Iain Wright: Since April 2008 local authorities Safe’. The Government Office for the East of England have been responsible for providing Connexions services. is continuing to work closely with Hertfordshire county Under the Education and Skills Act 2008 they have a council, as Children’s Safeguarding Authority, and partner statutory duty to deliver Connexions, which places services organisations and agencies to strengthen child protection within scope of the Comprehensive Area Assessment. services in the area. Connexions services contribute to targets in local area The Government have made clear its determination agreements. We expect local authorities to assess the to make sure that child protection services in every area quality of their information, advice and guidance (IAG) meet the needs of the vulnerable children they serve. provision, including that commissioned from Connexions That is why we asked Lord Laming to prepare an urgent services, against national IAG Quality Standards. report of progress across the country in implementing Departmental Internet effective arrangements for safeguarding children. The Government have accepted all of Lord Laming’s Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for recommendations and published a detailed action plan Children, Schools and Families when his Department on 6 May 2009. plans to update its web browsers from Internet Explorer 6. [285021] Children’s Play: Finance Mr. Coaker: The Department for Children, Schools Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for and Families currently operates Microsoft Internet Explorer Children, Schools and Families what funding his Version 6.0 Service Pack 2. The proposed DCSF Department has provided for the enhancement of Information Strategy (incorporating Systems and public play facilities in the London Borough of (a) Technology) plans are to update the browser during Redbridge and (b) Waltham Forest in the last 12 2010/11 financial year. months. [284449] Pupils Dawn Primarolo: Following the commitments made in the Children’s Plan in 2007 and the national Play Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, strategy in 2008, every top tier local authority in England Schools and Families how many maintained schools will receive either play pathfinder or playbuilder funding have fewer than (a) 40, (b) 50, (c) 60, (d) 70, (e) 80, between 2008-11 through the play capital investment (f) 90 and (g) 100 pupils; and if he will make a programme. statement. [281305] On average all play pathfinder authorities will receive around £2 million capital funding and £500,000 revenue Mr. Coaker: Local authorities are responsible for funding, while playbuilder authorities will receive around planning the pattern of school provision most appropriate £1 million capital and £45,000 revenue funding. Play to their area. They have to ensure that there are sufficient pathfinder authorities will use their allocated funding school places, the needs of the local community are to deliver a minimum of 28 play areas plus a new staffed served and good quality education is provided in a cost adventure playground, while playbuilder authorities will effective way. Virtually all small primary schools serve deliver a minimum of 22 play areas by 2011. The play rural communities. 295W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 296W

The requested information is shown in the table.

Maintained nursery, primary, state-funded secondary and maintained special schools, size of school, as at January 2009 (provisional), England Schools with Schools with Schools with Schools with Schools with Schools with Schools with fewer than 40 fewer than 50 fewer than 60 fewer than 70 fewer than 80 fewer than 90 fewer than All schools pupils1 pupils1 pupils1 pupils1 pupils1 pupils1 100 pupils1

Maintained Nursery 437 15 35 80 135 204 270 313 Maintained 41 328 615 930 1,274 1,630 1,997 2,410 Primary2 State-funded 3,3470012335 Secondary2, 3 Maintained Special4 983 114 194 294 397 504 594 654 1 Includes solely registered pupils. 2 Includes middle schools as deemed. 3 Includes CTCs and Academies. 4 Includes General Hospital Schools. Source: School Census.

Pupils: Radiation Exposure Mr. Coaker: Information on pupils’ mode of travel to school has been collected only since 2007. The available information is shown in the table. Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what recent Maintained primary1, state-funded secondary1, 2 and special schools3: pupils4, 5 assessment he has made of the effects on 16 and under who walked or cycled to school, as at January each year, England Pupils for whom schoolchildren of potential radiation emissions from Pupils who walk to Pupils who cycle to travel data were wireless local area networks in schools; and if he will school school supplied7 direct local education authorities to adopt a Number Percentage Number Percentage Number Percentage precautionary approach to the approval of the (a) installation and (b) operation of wireless local area 2007 2,531,370 50.0 94,230 1.9 5,065,810 69.0 2008 3,100,510 50.2 120,190 1.9 6,172,180 84.8 networks in schools. [285238] 20098 3,502,890 50.9 131,300 1.9 6,887,060 95.1 1 Includes middle schools as deemed. Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Health Protection Agency 2 Includes CTCs and academies. (HPA) is the authoritative body on health issues relating 3 Includes maintained and non-maintained special schools. Excludes general hospital schools. to wireless technology. The HPA has consistently and 4 Pupils aged 16 and under as at 31 August in the previous year. clearly advised schools and local authorities that it does 5 Excludes boarders. 6 Expressed as a percentage of those pupils for whom travel data were supplied. not consider there to be any problem with the safety of 7 The collection of mode of travel to school data are only mandatory at pupil WiFi. Its current guidelines state there is no scientific level for schools with an approved school travel plan. evidence of any health risks from WiFi or that exposures 8 Provisional Note: exceed international guidelines and there is absolutely Figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. no reason schools should stop using them. Source: The HPA announced further research into the use of School Census. WiFi in October 2007, details at: Schools: Bullying http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/ Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for HPAweb_C/1195733726123?p=1171991026241 Children, Schools and Families if he will require Becta is the Government Agency with responsibility schools to record incidents of (a) bullying between for providing advice to schools and others on various pupils and (b) verbal and physical abuse of school technologies and their use, including their safe use. staff by pupils. [285726] Becta follows the HPA’s latest guidance in the advice it produces for schools and other education providers. Mr. Coaker: Yes. On 26 September 2008, my predecessor Becta’s current guidance on the use of WiFi equipment Jim Knight and his colleague Kevin Brennan announced in schools is that it provides a useful and flexible option the Government’s plan to make it compulsory for schools to complement rather than replace hard wired systems. to record incidents of bullying between pupils, and This advice will be reviewed and updated accordingly as incidents of verbal or physical abuse against school and when new guidance is published by the HPA. Becta staff. We plan to launch a full consultation on draft have engaged with the HPA on elements of the research regulations in the autumn, and to lay the regulations programme and will monitor closely any emerging findings next year with a view to them coming into force in to ensure that children are offered the best education in September 2010. a safe and secure environment. Schools: Capital Investment

Pupils: Travel Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what capital funding has been allocated by his Department to schools in the Norman Baker: To ask the Secretary of State for City of York in each year since 2003. [285782] Children, Schools and Families what estimate he has made of the number and percentage of children aged Mr. Coaker: Capital funding allocated by the Department 16 years of age and under who (a) walked and (b) to the City of York for schools in each year since 2003 is cycled to school in each year since 1997. [284809] set out in the following table: 297W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 298W

Schools: Finance £ million

2003-04 11.1 Mr. Scott: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, 2004-05 11.4 Schools and Families whether any elements of the 2005-06 10.7 Targeted Capital Fund have been subject to a 2006-07 23.0 moratorium on spending. [284377] 2007-08 37.5 2008-09 6.8 2009-10 13.7 Mr. Coaker: No elements of the Targeted Capital Fund, where allocations to schools and local authorities The allocations include £14.2 million for targeted have been confirmed, are subject to a moratorium on capital funding in 2006-07, £28.5 million for a One spending. However, the Standards and Diversity Targeted School Pathfinder School in 2007-08, and £3.0 million Capital Fund is currently closed for new applications. for the new Primary School programme in 2009-10, We have always been clear that further allocations would together with an advance in 2009-10 of funding brought depend on the availability of funds, and these have now forward from 2010-11. been committed.

Schools: Crimes of Violence Schools: Manpower Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families what measures his Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Department has in place to ensure the protection of Schools and Families if he will place in the Library a children against sexual assault on school premises. copy of the school workforce census form. [286561] [285331] Mr. Coaker: The School Workforce Census is an Dawn Primarolo: Section 175 of the Education Act 2002 electronic data collection from schools and local authorities. requires governing bodies of maintained schools to The Census is being piloted during 2009 and will go live make arrangements to ensure that their functions are in 2010. As it is an electronic data collection there is no carried out with a view to safeguarding and promoting form as such but a copy of the technical specification the welfare of children. In meeting this duty, schools for the collection is publicly available on the Department’s must have regard to the guidance contained in TeacherNet pages “Safeguarding Children and Safer Recruitment in Education”. This sets out the safeguarding responsibilities http://www.teachernet.gov.uk/management/ims/ of all local authorities and schools, including recruitment datacollections/swfcpilot/ best practice, designed to safeguard children from all forms of abuse including sexual abuse. To comply with Science: Education the guidance, governing bodies of all maintained schools should ensure that: Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for the school has a child protection policy in place that is in Children, Schools and Families what assessment he has accordance with local authority guidance and locally agreed made of the likely effects on levels of attainment in inter-agency procedures; science subjects by children at secondary level of the the school operates safe recruitment procedures and carries proposal of the Rose Review to replace science as a out appropriate checks on staff and volunteers who work with children; core subject in primary schools; and if he will make a statement. [284011] the school operates procedures for dealing with allegations of abuse that comply with guidance from the local authority and locally agreed inter-agency procedures; Ms Diana R. Johnson: We have not made a formal a senior member of the school’s leadership team is designated assessment of the implications for levels of attainment to take lead responsibility for dealing with child protection in science subjects for secondary pupils of the proposed issues, providing advice and support to other staff, liaising with revisions to the primary curriculum. the local authority and working with other agencies; In the proposals for the new primary curriculum in addition to basic child protection training the designated person undertakes training in inter-agency working to standards subjects will no longer be designated as core and foundation. agreed by the local safeguarding children board, and refresher The essential knowledge, skills and understanding of training at two yearly intervals; science are all included within the ’scientific and all staff who work with children undertake training to equip technological understanding’ area of learning. The Rose them to carry out their responsibilities for child protection Review Team worked closely with the science community effectively, and refresher training at three yearly intervals; to ensure that this area of learning contains the scientific temporary staff and volunteers who work with children are knowledge, skills and understanding they consider is made aware of the school’s arrangement for child protection essential for children aged 5-11 to learn. and their responsibilities; The Government remain committed to encouraging they remedy without delay any deficiencies or weaknesses in regard to child protection arrangements that are brought to the take up of science subjects at GCSE and beyond. their attention; The new pupil guarantee in the White Paper will ensure a member of the governing body is nominated to be responsible that every pupil understands that they have, and are for liaising with the LA in the event of allegations of abuse encouraged to take up, the opportunity to study at least being made against the head teacher; two science GCSEs and those who would benefit from a they review their policies and procedures annually and provide more stretching science curriculum have the opportunity information to the local authority about them and about how to study triple science GCSE (physics, chemistry and the above duties have been discharged. biology). 299W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 300W

Secondary Education: Gifted Children Maintained primary schools1 Maintained secondary schools1,5 Andrew Stunell: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage Number of Percentage Number of of gifted Children, Schools and Families how many and what gifted and of gifted gifted and and proportion of (a) primary and (b) secondary school talented and talented talented talented pupils in (i) each local authority area in the North West pupils2 pupils4 pupils2 pupils4 and (ii) England are on gifted and talented Rochdale 1,185 6.0 1,110 8.8 programmes. [285376] Salford 869 4.6 1,156 10.8 Sefton 1,954 8.7 2,208 11.4 Ms Diana R. Johnson: The Department does not St. Helens 1,811 12.0 1,224 11.0 collect data on which pupils in schools are on gifted and Stockport 1,556 6.9 1,677 11.4 talented programmes. Through the School Census schools Tameside 2,014 10.2 2,236 14.9 are asked to confirm the gifted and talented pupils they Trafford 873 4.5 1,985 12.2 have identified. In the summer 2008 Census, 95 per Warrington 1,649 9.5 2,194 16.1 cent. of secondary schools and 78 per cent. of primary Wigan 2,461 9.6 2,550 12.7 schools nationally confirmed they were identifying gifted Wirral 2,763 10.8 3,096 13.4 and talented pupils. The comparable figures for North 1 Includes middle schools as deemed primary/secondary. West were 94 per cent. and 76 per cent. respectively. 2 Includes pupils with sole and dual (main) registration. 3 National figures have been rounded to the nearest 10. The following table shows the number and proportion 4 The number of gifted and talented pupils expressed as a percentage of the total number of pupils. of gifted and talented pupils attending primary and 5 Excludes academies. secondary schools in the local authorities in the North Source: West and England. School Census summer 2008. Secondary Education: School Choice Maintained primary schools1 Maintained secondary schools1,5 Michael Gove: To ask the Secretary of State for Percentage Children, Schools and Families how many and what Number of Percentage Number of of gifted percentage of parents in each local authority were gifted and of gifted gifted and and offered (a) their fourth preference, (b) their fifth talented and talented talented talented pupils2 pupils4 pupils2 pupils4 preference, (c) their sixth preference and (d) none of their preferences for secondary school in the last year 3 England 347,400 8.4 454,770 14.2 for which data are available. [260867]

North West3 48,610 8.3 56,590 12.9 Ms Diana R. Johnson [holding answer 5 March 2009]: Blackburn with 865 6.0 1,046 11.0 The following table contains the information requested Darwen and is derived from data collected on National Offer Blackpool 975 8.5 820 9.8 day in March 2009. Bolton 1,424 5.6 2,410 12.7 Where parents did not receive an offer on National Bury 279 1.7 1,503 13.2 Offer day, this is likely to be because the local authority Cheshire 4,484 8.5 6,827 15.2 is giving them a further opportunity to express preferences Cumbria 2,462 6.3 3,594 10.4 for schools with vacant places or because they did not Halton 536 5.3 1,109 14.4 require an alternative offer if a place was not available Knowsley 1,086 7.3 670 8.0 at their preferred school e.g. in authorities with mixed Lancashire 11,896 13.1 10,668 15.0 two and three-tier schools systems, parents of children Liverpool 2,586 7.0 3,753 12.9 at middle schools may apply for a secondary school Manchester 4,037 9.9 3,138 14.0 place, but choose to remain at the middle school if a Oldham 868 3.7 1,616 10.1 place is not available at their preferred secondary school.

Number Percentage Applications received from Applicants Applicants Applicants Applicants without parents of children Preferences offered receiving an offer receiving an offer receiving an offer an offer resident in the local by the local for their fourth for their fifth for their sixth corresponding to any Local authority authority area authority preference school preference school preference school preference

England 546,744 — 0.9 0.4 0.3 3.8

North East 26,463 — 0.0 0.0 0.0 2.0 Darlington1,1603——— 5.5 Durham5,2993——— 1.9 Gateshead 2,057 3——— 1.5 Hartlepool 1,094 3——— 0.6 Middlesbrough 1,669 3——— 2.5 Newcastle upon Tyne 2,215 6 0.5 0.3 0.0 2.8 NorthTyneside1,6373——— 3.5 Northumberland 2,992 3——— 0.3 Redcar and 1,5703——— 1.5 Cleveland 301W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 302W

Number Percentage Applications received from Applicants Applicants Applicants Applicants without parents of children Preferences offered receiving an offer receiving an offer receiving an offer an offer resident in the local by the local for their fourth for their fifth for their sixth corresponding to any Local authority authority area authority preference school preference school preference school preference

South Tyneside 1,632 3——— 4.8 Stockton-on-Tees 2,086 3——— 0.2 Sunderland 3,052 3——— 1.2

North West 78,101 — 0.3 0.1 0.1 2.9 Blackburn With 2,0063——— 8.2 Darwen Blackpool 1,471 3——— 0.6 Bolton3,4033——— 3.8 Bury2,2033——— 3.8 Cheshire 7,615 3——— 2.9 Cumbria 5,310 3——— 0.8 Halton1,5143——— 3.1 Knowsley1,8853——— 3.4 Lancashire 12,540 3——— 1.9 Liverpool 4,679 3——— 3.7 Manchester 4,659 6 0.7 0.1 0.1 5.9 Oldham 2,932 6 1.1 0.5 0.1 4.9 Rochdale 2,643 4 0.3 — — 1.3 Salford 2,313 6 0.7 0.1 0.0 3.7 Sefton2,9753——— 3.3 St.Helens1,9673——— 0.9 Stockport 3,375 3——— 2.7 Tameside2,5903——— 4.4 Trafford 2,593 6 3.4 1.6 1.2 5.6 Warrington 2,364 6 0.1 0.0 0.0 1.5 Wigan3,4453——— 0.9 Wirral 3,619 5 0.5 0.0 — 1.2

Yorks and the 57,042 — 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.0 Humber Barnsley2,5453——— 0.3 Bradford6,5243——— 5.5 Calderdale2,4903——— 3.7 Doncaster 3,363 3——— 0.5 East Riding of 3,4813——— 0.5 Yorkshire Kingston upon Hull, 2,8713——— 5.1 City of Kirklees4,4193——— 5.2 Leeds 7,643 3——— 3.4 North East 1,7443——— 3.3 Lincolnshire North Lincolnshire 1,829 3——— 0.3 North Yorkshire 6,096 5 0.4 0.1 — 3.6 Rotherham3,0743——— 0.7 Sheffield 5,713 3——— 3.8 Wakefield3,4613——— 0.7 York 1,789 5 0.2 0.0 — 1.6

East Midlands 47,229 — 0.1 0.0 0.0 2.3 Derby 2,671 4 1.2 — — 3.7 Derbyshire8,5553——— 2.0 Leicester3,4323——— 3.2 Leicestershire5,8033——— 1.4 Lincolnshire 7,822 3——— 2.7 Northamptonshire 7,607 3——— 2.7 Nottingham 2,875 4 1.2 — — 4.1 Nottinghamshire 8,146 3——— 1.3 Rutland3183——— 0.3 303W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 304W

Number Percentage Applications received from Applicants Applicants Applicants Applicants without parents of children Preferences offered receiving an offer receiving an offer receiving an offer an offer resident in the local by the local for their fourth for their fifth for their sixth corresponding to any Local authority authority area authority preference school preference school preference school preference

West Midlands 60,333 — 1.6 — 0.5 3.4 Birmingham 13,952 6 4.1 2.8 1.8 4.6 Coventry 3,522 6 0.1 0.0 0.0 6.2 Dudley 3,523 6 0.7 0.3 0.1 1.1 Herefordshire 1,864 3——— 1.7 Sandwell 3,731 6 2.1 1.2 1.0 4.7 Shropshire3,0453——— 1.0 Solihull 2,497 6 2.1 1.4 0.0 0.7 Staffordshire 7,850 6 0.2 0.1 0.0 1.2 Stoke-on-Trent2,6813——— 0.6 Telford and Wrekin 2,052 4 0.4 — — 2.0 Walsall 3,324 5 2.1 0.8 — 5.1 Warwickshire 5,831 6 1.4 0.2 0.1 4.5 Wolverhampton 2,883 5 1.4 0.7 — 3.7 Worcestershire3,5783——— 5.1

East of England 59,135 — 0.5 — 0.0 3.6 Bedfordshire 4,454 4 0.1 — — 0.5 Cambridgeshire 5,985 3——— 1.8 Essex 15,764 4 1.5 — — 3.3 Hertfordshire12,3013——— 7.4 Luton2,4863——— 3.7 Norfolk8,6213——— 2.1 Peterborough 2,163 3——— 5.4 Southend-on-Sea 1,952 5 2.8 1.0 — 4.5 Suffolk3,4913——— 2.9 Thurrock 1,918 6 0.9 0.4 0.5 0.0

London 78,206 — 3.3 — 1.2 6.8 Inner London Camden 1,381 6 2.5 0.8 0.4 5.6 City of London 23 6 4.3 0.0 0.0 8.7 Hackney 2,238 6 3.8 1.9 1.0 11.0 Hammersmith and 1,129 6 4.2 1.9 1.2 10.6 Fulham Haringey 2,449 6 3.3 2.0 0.8 7.2 Islington 1,556 6 2.4 1.4 0.8 6.3 Kensington and 675 6 2.8 0.7 0.1 11.9 Chelsea Lambeth 2,440 6 4.6 2.8 6.5 4.0 Lewisham 2,746 6 4.8 2.8 1.1 6.2 Newham 3,679 6 1.3 0.5 0.3 4.5 Southwark 2,473 6 5.4 3.1 1.5 8.3 Tower Hamlets 2,653 6 2.0 0.7 0.1 7.5 Wandsworth 1,843 6 4.8 2.5 0.9 6.6 Westminster 1,127 6 2.9 1.0 0.4 8.4 Outer London Barking and 2,445 6 3.1 1.3 0.7 9.4 Dagenham Barnet 3,540 6 3.6 1.7 1.0 11.2 Bexley 2,759 6 2.0 0.7 0.3 4.8 Brent 2,887 6 3.1 1.8 1.0 5.9 Bromley 3,311 6 3.7 1.8 1.4 5.2 Croydon 3,979 6 4.5 2.4 1.2 10.9 Ealing 3,353 6 2.9 1.4 1.1 7.2 Enfield 3,785 6 4.7 2.9 1.2 6.4 Greenwich 2,664 6 2.4 1.4 0.5 5.5 Harrow 1,691 6 0.9 0.4 0.1 2.7 Havering 2,762 6 2.0 0.6 3.5 0.0 Hillingdon 3,158 6 2.8 1.6 1.0 4.9 305W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 306W

Number Percentage Applications received from Applicants Applicants Applicants Applicants without parents of children Preferences offered receiving an offer receiving an offer receiving an offer an offer resident in the local by the local for their fourth for their fifth for their sixth corresponding to any Local authority authority area authority preference school preference school preference school preference

Hounslow 2,500 6 2.8 2.1 0.8 5.4 Kingston upon 1,556 6 4.5 2.0 1.4 5.3 Thames Merton 1,726 6 4.5 3.2 2.4 10.2 Redbridge 3,294 6 4.1 2.7 2.6 8.6 Richmond upon 1,510 6 2.0 0.9 0.5 12.7 Thames Sutton 2,193 6 4.5 2.2 1.0 6.7 Waltham Forest 2,681 6 1.6 0.9 0.6 3.6

South East 88,579 — 0.8 — 0.1 4.5 Bracknell Forest 1,284 3———11.6 BrightonandHove2,3043——— 3.2 Buckinghamshire 5,954 6 4.5 1.4 0.8 7.4 East Sussex 5,306 3——— 5.6 Hampshire 13,973 3——— 1.8 IsleofWight1,3803——— 0.0 Kent 16,277 4 1.5 — — 4.7 Medway 3,004 6 0.5 0.2 0.1 1.7 Milton Keynes 2,853 3——— 2.5 Oxfordshire 6,180 3——— 3.1 Portsmouth 1,859 3——— 2.2 Reading 1,511 3——— 5.2 Slough 1,599 6 11.8 5.3 2.4 8.0 Southampton 2,124 3——— 3.4 Surrey11,1213——— 7.5 West Berkshire 1,662 3——— 1.8 West Sussex 7,257 6 0.0 0.0 0.0 4.5 Windsor and 1,1193——— 8.4 Maidenhead Wokingham 1,812 3——— 4.1

South West 51,656 — 0.0 0.0 0.0 3.5 Bath and North East 1,6903——— 4.3 Somerset Bournemouth 1,461 3——— 4.1 Bristol, City of 3,874 3——— 5.0 Cornwall5,5953——— 0.6 Devon7,5473——— 2.3 Dorset2,8263——— 5.7 Gloucestershire 6,536 4 0.0 — — 5.3 North Somerset 2,158 3——— 4.3 Plymouth 2,677 3——— 2.2 Poole1,1893———12.4 Somerset 4,424 3——— 3.5 South 3,0813——— 2.1 Gloucestershire Swindon 2,369 3——— 2.2 Torbay1,3883——— 2.6 Wiltshire 4,841 3——— 2.9

Social Workers: Essex Services Staff of Social Services Departments return (SSDS001) which was introduced in 1993 by the Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Department of Health. In 2004-05 responsibility for the Children, Schools and Families how many full-time collection of this data passed to the NHS Information children’s social workers there were in (a) Essex and Centre for Health and Social Care. These data are (b) Castle Point in (i) 1997 and (ii) the latest period for published on an annual basis with breakdown by local which figures are available. [285476] authority available in the supporting annexes. Dawn Primarolo: Information on all staff, including Reports published from 2006 onwards are available children’s social workers, directly employed by social on the NHS Information Centre website here: services departments is collected through the Personal Social 307W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 308W

http://www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/social- inception, but we would expect the local authority, as care/childrens-social-care the body responsible for delivering children’s centres, to Reports published between 1996 and 2005 are available hold data on usage of centres. on the Department of Health website here: http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Statistics/ Teachers and Teaching Assistants: North East StatisticalWorkAreas/Statisticalworkforce/DH_4000233 Sure Start Programme: York Dr. Kumar: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families (1) how many teachers Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for were employed in schools in (a) the North East, (b) Children, Schools and Families how many (a) children the Tees Valley and (c) Middlesbrough South and East and (b) families in York have received support from his Cleveland constituency in each year since 1997; Department’s Sure Start programme since the [285223] programme’s inception. [285780] (2) how many classroom assistants were employed in schools in (a) the North East, (b) Tees Valley and (c) Dawn Primarolo: The city of York currently has eight Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland constituency Sure Start children’s centres offering access to services in each year since 1997. [285329] to over 6,000 children under five and their families. One further centre is planned by 2010 in order to provide Mr. Coaker: The following table shows the number of universal coverage of children’s centre services for children full-time equivalent teachers and teaching assistants in under five and their families in the local authority area. local authority maintained schools in the North East The Department does not hold information centrally Government office region, Tees Valley sub region and on how many families have received support from the Middlesbrough, South and East Cleveland parliamentary Sure Start programme in York since the programme’s constituency in January 1997 to January 2008.

Full-time equivalent teachers and teaching assistants in local authority maintained schools1. Years: January 1997 to 2008. Coverage: North East Government office region, Tees Valley sub region and Middlesbrough, South and East Cleveland parliamentary constituency Teachers2 Teaching assistants3 Middlesbrough, South and Middlesbrough, South and North East4 Tees Valley4, 5 East Cleveland6 North East6 Tees Valley5, 6 East Cleveland6

1997 22,200 5,170 760 2,870 670 100 1998 21,950 5,910 740 2,990 820 110 1999 22,020 5,860 730 3,130 830 100 2000 22,010 5,940 730 3,450 950 100 2001 22,540 5,900 730 4,280 1,180 130 2002 22,910 6,170 760 4,010 1,030 140 2003 22,670 6,080 780 5,060 1,390 200 2004 22,680 6,000 690 5,630 1,500 220 2005 22,710 5,990 670 6,430 1,730 200 2006 22,770 5,970 670 6,930 1,940 250 2007 22,720 5,940 670 7,450 2,030 260 2008 22,640 5,860 650 8,030 2,410 300 1 Excludes academies. 2 Qualified and unqualified teachers. 3 Teaching assistants include teaching assistants, higher level teaching assistants, special needs support staff and minority ethnic pupil support staff. 4 Source: Annual survey of teachers in service and teacher vacancies, 618g. 5 Tees Valley Sub Region is made up from local authorities Hartlepool, Middlesbrough, Redcar and Cleveland, Stockton and Darlington. Darlington became a new authority in 1998 and is therefore not included in the 1997 figures. 6 Source: School Census. Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest 10.

Teachers: Degrees Mr. Coaker: Information on the average salary of teacher is available only for full-time regular qualified Mr. Laws: To ask the Secretary of State for Children, teachers in service in local authority maintained schools. Schools and Families how many and what proportion The following table provides this information for York of National Challenge schools have staff with a degree local authority in both cash and real terms in each year, in (a) English, (b) mathematics, (c) physics, (d) March 1997 to 2007, the latest year available. chemistry and (e) biology. [286693] Average salary of full-time regular qualified teachers in local authority maintained schools, York local authority, March 1997 to 2007 Mr. Coaker: The information requested is not collected Gross average salary (£)1 centrally. Actual Real terms2 Teachers: Pay 1997 22,500 28,500 Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for 1998 23,200 28,600 Children, Schools and Families what the average 1999 24,100 29,100 full-time equivalent gross pay of teachers has been in 2000 24,900 29,500 schools in York in (a) cash and (b) real terms in each 2001 26,900 31,500 year since 1997. [285823] 2002 27,800 31,800 309W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 310W

Average salary of full-time regular qualified teachers in local authority Mr. Coaker: The number of full-time equivalent teachers, maintained schools, York local authority, March 1997 to 2007 teaching assistants and support staff in each year since 1 Gross average salary (£) 1997 have been published in the Statistical First Release, 2 Actual Real terms “School Workforce in England (including Local Authority 2003 29,700 32,900 level Figures), January 2008 (Revised)”. They are located 2004 30,600 33,000 in tables 19, 26 and 25 respectively in the following 2005 32,100 33,700 location: 20063 33,100 34,100 http://www.dcsf.gov.uk/rsgateway/DB/SFR/s000813/ 20073 34,300 34,300 index.shtml 1 Gross salary of teachers of all grades including allowances. 2 Adjusted using HM Treasury GDP deflator. 3 Provisional. Note: Figures are rounded to the nearest £100. Source: Database of Teacher records. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT

Teachers: South East 62 Eaton Place

Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government at what sale price Children, Schools and Families how many teachers his Department’s property at 62 Eaton Place was were employed in schools in (a) Hemel Hempstead marketed; for how long it was marketed; and whether constituency, (b) Dacorum, (c) Hertfordshire and (d) the property has now been sold. [284478] the South East in each year since 1997. [285894] Mr. Woolas: I have been asked to reply. Mr. Coaker: The following table shows the number of 62 South Eaton Place was placed on the market in full-time equivalent number of teachers in local authority September 2008 at an indicated guide price of £4 million. maintained schools in Hemel Hempstead parliamentary The property remains for sale and viewings are continuing. constituency, Dacorum district, Hertfordshire local authority and the South East government office region, Aerials: Planning Permission in January 1997 to January 2008. Information for all the years requested for Dacorum Mr. Andrew Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State district authority is available only at disproportionate for Communities and Local Government what cost. guidance he issues to planning authorities on their Full-time equivalent teachers1 in local authority maintained schools2. Years: consideration of potential health effects arising from January 1997 to 2008. Coverage: Hemel Hempstead parliamentary constituency, the operation of proposed mobile telephone masts; Dacorum district, Hertfordshire local authority and South East Government what account he takes of the guidelines for protection office region from such radiation established by the International Hemel South Hempstead3 Dacorum3 Hertfordshire4 East4 Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection in establishing such guidance; and if he will make a 1997 830 1,130 9,040 59,830 statement. [285240] 1998 850 n/a 8,970 59,820 1999 860 n/a 9,070 60,260 Mr. Ian Austin: Planning policy guidance note 8: 2000 850 n/a 9,030 61,480 Telecommunications (PPG8) states that health 2001 880 n/a 9,170 61,830 considerations can be a material consideration in 2002 890 1,220 9,550 63,510 determining applications for planning permission and 2003 910 n/a 9,610 64,570 prior approval. Whether such matters are material in a 2004 900 n/a 9,820 65,490 particular case is ultimately a matter for the courts. It is 2005 930 n/a 9,810 66,280 for the decision maker to determine what weight to 2006 940 n/a 10,180 67,030 attach to such considerations in any particular case. 2007 930 n/a 10,480 67,560 PPG8 goes on to say that if a proposed mobile phone 2008 920 1,280 10,350 67,590 mast base station meets the International Commission n/a = Not available. 1 Qualified and unqualified teachers. on Non-Ionizing Protection (ICNIRP) guidelines for 2 Excludes academies. public health it should not be necessary for a local 3 Source: School Census. planning authority to consider further the health aspects 4 Source: Annual survey of teachers in service and teacher vacancies, 618g. 5 Hemel Hempstead, Dacorum and Hertfordshire do not fall within the South and concerns about them. East Government office region. Note: Airports: Planning Permission Figures are rounded to the nearest 10.

Teachers: Yorkshire and The Humber Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what guidance his Department issues on the permitted Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for development rights which apply in respect of airports. Children, Schools and Families how many full-time [286531] equivalent (a) teachers, (b) teaching assistants and (c) support staff there were in local education authority Mr. Ian Austin: No specific guidance has been issued schools in (i) Yorkshire and the Humber and (ii) City of concerning the permitted development rights at airports. York in (A) 1997 and (B) the latest period for which However, general guidance on publicity for statutory figures are available. [285702] undertakers, including airport operators, has been issued 311W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 312W in DOE circulars 15/92 and 9/95. This makes it clear (over 10,000 population) and compares the figures with that although statutory undertakers are not required to regional and national averages. The report is available submit a planning application when carrying out permitted on line at: development, they should inform the local planning http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/citiesandregions/ authority and the public if they consider that their englishseasidetowns proposal is likely to have a significant effect on amenity The Department is about to commission a benchmarking and environment before the proposals are finalised. study of smaller seaside towns (below 10,000 population) in England. This will complement the earlier benchmarking Allotments study and provide a range of data on socio-economic performance. It is being jointly funded with the Department Mike Gapes: To ask the Secretary of State for for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Communities and Local Government what Commission for Rural Communities. The final report applications each Government Office has (a) received, will be published in the autumn. (b) approved and (c) not approved from each local Councillors authority in its region for disposal of statutory allotments between 1 April 2007 and 31 March 2009; what the proposed alternative use of the allotments was Mr. Mullin: To ask the Secretary of State for in each case; and what the reason for (i) approval and Communities and Local Government what guidance he (ii) refusal was in each case. [285487] provides to local authorities on declarations by councillors who are freemasons; and whether that guidance has been amended since 1997. [285566] Mr. Ian Austin: The Secretary of State’s consent will only be given if he is satisfied that: Ms Rosie Winterton: The Standards Board for England the allotment in question is not necessary and is surplus to frequently issues guidance to local authorities about requirement; members’ conduct. The last guidance that included adequate provision will be made for displaced plot holders, or freemasonry was issued in 2007. Prior to this in 2004 that such provision is not necessary or is impracticable; the Standards Board produced guidance about what the number of people on the waiting list has been effectively councillors who are freemasons have to register and taken into account; declare. the authority has actively promoted and publicised the availability of allotment sites and has consulted the National Society of Eco-Towns: Public Consultation Allotment and Leisure Gardeners: and the implications of disposal for other relevant policies, in Robert Neill: To ask the Secretary of State for particular development plan policies, have been taken into account. Communities and Local Government how many responses were received to his Department’s During the period 1 April 2007 and 31 March 2009 consultation on the planning policy statement on 98 applications for consent to dispose of statutory eco-towns; and what the timetable is for publication of allotment have been determined. This includes 56 the Government response to the consultation. [286706] applications which were approved, two applications which were refused, five applications which were withdrawn John Healey: The consultation on the eco-towns and for 35 applications consent was not required or the programme, including the draft Planning Policy Statement applications were taken no further. In addition to these closed on 30 April 2009. I intend to publish a Government 98 determined applications there remained four still response together with a consultation summary report under consideration. of responses received, information requested, before Those applications that were approved or refused the summer recess. were judged by the Government offices, on behalf of the Secretary of State, as either satisfying or not satisfying Home Information Packs the criteria on the basis of which the Secretary of State is to grant consent for the disposal of statutory allotment Mr. Oaten: To ask the Secretary of State for sites. Communities and Local Government pursuant to his Since April 2008 Government office west midlands answer on 24 June 2009, Official Report, column 958W, have been responsible for determining all statutory allotment on home information packs, if he will assess consent to dispose applications, on behalf of Secretary performance of local authority weights and measures of State. authorities in enforcing home information pack duties under the Housing Act 2004. [286621] Coastal Areas: Economic Situation John Healey: It is for individual trading standards offices to decide on how to exercise their enforcement Mr. Sanders: To ask the Secretary of State for duties, including those that apply to home information Communities and Local Government if he will make packs, in the light of local priorities. an assessment of the economic performance of seaside resorts in England. [285209] Housing: Armed Forces

Ms Rosie Winterton: “England’s Seaside Towns—A Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Benchmarking Study”, published by the Department in Communities and Local Government pursuant to the November 2008 presents findings on the socio-economic answer of 2 July 2009, Official Report, column 369W, performance of England’s 37 principal seaside resorts on housing: armed forces, for what reasons data on 313W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 314W applications for assistance under the New Build Since December 2008, these programmes have been HomeBuy and intermediate rent schemes are not held delivered by the Homes and Communities Agency (HCA). centrally. [285532] The HCA supports the Prime Minister’s commitment to increase the number of apprenticeships by 35,000 by John Healey: The Homes and Communities Agency 2010. However, the HCA is now undertaking work to does not collect data on the number of applications for identify the baseline for what is currently being achieved, each of the homebuy products. Households make to set realistic targets for future funding and to monitor applications for the scheme through their local homebuy and measure improvement over time. agent. When applying for the homebuy scheme, applicants are not required to choose between the products at the Industrial Estates: Planning Permission application stage and often select a number of options. This information therefore does not give a reliable indication of the number of applications for a particular product. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many Housing: Low Incomes planning applications for the development of business sites in (a) Vale of York constituency, (b) North Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Yorkshire and (c) England were (i) made and (ii) for Communities and Local Government (1) how many approved in each year since 1997. [286301] transactions have been completed under the HomeBuy Direct scheme to date; [283972] Mr. Ian Austin: This information is not available for constituency areas. Statistics are, however, available for (2) how many completed transactions there have the county of North Yorkshire. The following table been under the (a) Social HomeBuy and (b) shows the numbers of applications decided and granted HomeBuy Direct scheme. [284168] by local planning authorities in North Yorkshire and in England John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my right hon. Friend, the Member for Derby The figures shown are the totals of applications for South (Margaret Beckett) to the hon. Member for commercial, retail and industrial developments. Buckingham (John Bercow) on 7 May 2009, Official Further information for individual local planning Report, columns 390-92W. authorities is available Table 1.6 in the Annual Development As at the end of June, 194 properties had been sold Control Statistics publication at the following web link: through HomeBuy Direct. http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ statistics/developmentcontrol200708 Alistair Burt: To ask the Secretary of State for Planning decisions on business sites in North Yorkshire and England Communities and Local Government (1) how much Business sites1 funding has been (a) allocated to and (b) spent in the North Yorkshire England East of England under the My Choice HomeBuy Decisions Granted Decisions Granted scheme in 2009-10; [285111] 1997-98 522 467 34,700 31,300 (2) how much funding was allocated to the East of 1998-99 522 454 33,400 30,100 England under the My Choice HomeBuy scheme in 1999-2000 496 447 30,300 27,600 (a) 2006-07, (b) 2007-08 and (c) 2008-09. [285112] 2000-01 455 411 28,700 26,000 2001-02 478 430 28,500 25,600 John Healey: I refer the hon. Member to the answer 2002-03 461 423 28,000 24,900 my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby South 2003-04 382 330 26,600 23,400 (Margaret Beckett) gave to the hon. Member for Welwyn 2004-05 329 280 26,100 22,600 Hatfield (Grant Shapps) on 21 May 2009, Official Report, 2005-06 322 271 25,400 21,900 columns 1540-42W,regarding funding for the MyChoice 2006-07 371 310 24,600 21,000 HomeBuy scheme in 2008-09. 2007-08 341 284 25,700 21,900 In the first quarter of 2009-10 the Homes and 2008-092 344 293 21,500 18,500 Communities Agency spent approximately £7 million 1 Includes offices, research and development, light industry, general industry, on the MyChoice HomeBuy scheme in the East of storage, warehousing, retail distribution and servicing. 2 Provisional. England. Source: The MyChoice HomeBuy scheme was launched in Communities and Local Government General Development Control Returns, April 2008 and therefore no data is available for the PS2/PSF 2006-07 or 2007-08 financial years. Local Government: Apprentices Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what recent Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for estimate he has made of the number of apprenticeship Communities and Local Government what recent places which have been created or safeguarded by estimate he has made of the number of (a) social house-building projects to date. [286767] apprenticeships and (b) graduate trainee places offered by local authorities in (i) 2005-06, (ii) 2006-07, (iii) Mr. Ian Austin: Communities and Local Government’s 2007-08, (iv) 2008-09 and (v) 2009-10. [286766] biggest lever in terms of supporting apprenticeships in the home building sector is to maintain investment in Ms Rosie Winterton: We do not hold centrally and delivery of programmes for regeneration, new social information about the number of apprenticeships or housing and decent homes. graduate trainees in local government. 315W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 316W

Local Government: Pensions Ms Rosie Winterton: The information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government what Ordnance Survey obligations local authorities (a) in and (b) outside London have in relation to providing scheme Mrs. Spelman: To ask the Secretary of State for participants with information on deficits and surpluses Communities and Local Government if he will place in in the Local Government Pension Scheme fund the Library a copy of the study produced by Ordnance administered by their local authority. [286525] Survey on the cost of a free data model, with commercially confidential elements redacted as Ms Rosie Winterton: Under Regulation 34(l)(d) of necessary. [284566] The Local Government Pension Scheme (Administration) Regulations 2008, Scheme administering authorities in Mr. Ian Austin: A redacted copy of ″International England and Wales are required to place in their Pension Comparison of Geographical Information Trading Models: Fund Annual Report a statement of the level of funding A report for the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State based on the most recent actuarial valuation of their for Communities and Local Government on the outcomes funds. of different trading models for Geographical Information″ The first report for the period 2008-09 must be published is available on the Ordnance Survey website at: by 1 December 2009. http://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/oswebsite/aboutus/foi/ icgitm.html Mortgages: Government Assistance This redacted version is an interim release pending permission from overseas’ contributors to release Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for information which they contributed. Communities and Local Government if he will place in the Library a copy of the Mortgage Rescue Scheme Planning and Energy Act 2008 monitoring statistics at local authority level for May 2009. [285147] Mr. Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how many local John Healey: The mortgage rescue scheme figures for authorities have used their powers under the Planning May 2009 as reported by local authorities have been and Energy Act 2008 to date. [286725] provided in a table placed in the Library of the House. Mr. Ian Austin: In developing policies in local plans Non-Domestic Rates which set requirements for energy use and energy efficiency, local authorities will have regard to a number of factors Justine Greening: To ask the Secretary of State for including the legislative framework and the expectations Communities and Local Government pursuant to the placed on them by the planning policy statement on answer of 11 June 2009, Official Report, columns climate change. Local authorities have not been asked 996-97W, on non-domestic rates, if he will place in the to explain the extent to which, in developing such Library a copy of each of the nine written policies, they have relied on the specific powers provided representations in favour of a five-year transitional by the Planning and Energy Act 2008. business rates relief scheme. [285125] Planning Permission Ms Rosie Winterton: The responses have been placed in the Library. Julia Goldsworthy: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State Communities and Local Government whether local for Communities and Local Government pursuant to authorities are able to require the creation of the answer to the hon. Member for Bromley and apprenticeship or trainee places as a condition of (a) Chislehurst of 18 June 2009, Official Report, column granting planning permission for new developments 471W, on non-domestic rates, whether his Department and (b) allocating funding to new developments. takes account of rates of (a) council tax and (b) [286765] non-domestic rate collection in determining levels of future funding for (i) local authorities, (ii) police Mr. Ian Austin: It will be for local authorities to authorities and (iii) fire authorities. [286512] decide whether or not it is appropriate to make any funding they provide conditional. Following the Prime Ms Rosie Winterton: No collection rates, whether of Minister’s announcement in January to increase the business rates or council tax, are assumed for the purposes number of apprenticeships by 35,000 by 2010, the Local of allocating formula grant. Government Association committed to double the number of apprentices employed, or managed via contract, by Non-Domestic Rates: Ports local government from 7,500 to 15,000.

Mr. Austin Mitchell: To ask the Secretary of State for Planning Permission: Fees and Charges Communities and Local Government pursuant to the answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, column 318W, Miss McIntosh: To ask the Secretary of State for on non-domestic rates: ports, how each port operator Communities and Local Government what fees are has been notified of the new business rate assessment payable by businesses seeking to renew a planning in 2005; how many of the assessments for the 1,800 application in respect of which planning permission separate heriditaments were re-assessed before 2009; has already been given; and if he will make a statement. and for what reasons they were re-assessed. [285010] [286303] 317W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 318W

Mr. Ian Austin: Under current legislation there is not Number of units a separate fee to renew a planning permission, the fee payable would be the same as a new planning application. 2008-09 (outturn) 93 The Minister for Housing, the right hon. Member for 2009-10 (planned) 50 Wentworth (John Healey) announced on 18 June 2009 2010-11 (proposed) 126 the publication of a consultation document entitled Source: ‘Greater Flexibility for Planning Permissions’ which Dacorum Borough Council, Housing Supply Statistical Appendix includes proposals in respect of extensions to the time Returns 2009. Information does not extend beyond 2010-11.) limits for existing planning permissions. (b) There were seven sales/transfers made through Right The document is available at: to Buy in Dacorum borough in 2008-09. Information http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/ on projected sales/transfers through Right to Buy and planningandbuilding/flexibilitypermissions Right to Acquire is not available as it will depend on applications. Dacorum borough council does not currently Regional Planning and Development purchase empty properties to offer for social rent. Source: Dacorum borough council, P1B Statistical Returns 2009. Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government which Temporary Accommodation decisions taken by him in relation to regional spatial strategies in the last 12 months have been the subject of Grant Shapps: To ask the Secretary of State for applications for judicial review. [286519] Communities and Local Government how many households were in temporary accommodation in the Mr. Ian Austin: Since May 2008, the Secretary of last quarter for which figures are available. [286431] State has published six regional spatial strategies. High Court challenges have been lodged against the regional Mr. Ian Austin: This information is published on a spatial strategies for the East of England and the South quarterly basis and can be found in the Library and also East of England. at the following link: http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/ Repossession Orders: Hampshire statistics/homelessnessq12009

Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (1) how many FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE people in each age group have had their home repossessed in (a) Test Valley borough and (b) Afghanistan: Prisoners Southampton in the last 12 months; [286322] (2) how many domestic dwellings in (a) Test Valley Dr. Evan Harris: To ask the Secretary of State for borough and (b) Southampton were repossessed in Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (1) what recent each of the last 12 months. [286323] discussions he has had with the Afghan government on the custodial sentence imposed on journalist Sayed Mr. Ian Austin: There are two independent sources of Pervez Kambaksh; [285357] data on actual numbers of mortgage possessions: the (2) whether his Department has requested that Council of Mortgage Lenders (CML) and the Financial Afghan President Hamid Karzai grant a presidential Services Authority (FSA). However, neither source has pardon to journalist Sayed Pervez Kambaksh. [285358] data by age of borrower or data at the local level. The Council of Mortgage Lenders latest press release Mr. Ivan Lewis: We share the hon. Member’s concern on repossessions is on their website at: about the continuing imprisonment of journalism student Sayed Pervez Kambakhsh. We urge the Afghan state to http://www.cml.org.uk/cml/media/press/2262 honour the Afghan Constitution and comply with the The Financial Services Authority data is available on international human rights standards, to which it is a their website at: party, including the right to a fair trial and freedom of http://www.fsa.gov.uk/pages/Doing/Regulated/Returns/IRR/ expression. statistics/ We opposed the death sentence imposed upon Mr. Kambakhsh at his initial trial in January 2008 after Social Rented Housing: Hemel Hempstead his imprisonment in October 2007. While it is positive that he no longer faces the death penalty, we are disappointed by the 20 year prison sentence he received Mike Penning: To ask the Secretary of State for on the 21 October 2008, a decision sadly upheld by the Communities and Local Government how many Afghan Supreme Court in early February. We have properties he expects to be (a) completed and (b) serious concerns about the fairness of his trials. purchased for social rent in Hemel Hempstead in each of the next five years. [283679] In April 2009, as part of the EU, we asked President Karzai to carefully consider the legitimacy of Mr. Kambakhsh’s trial. We continue to follow Mr. Ian Austin: The information requested is as follows: Mr. Kambakhsh’s case closely and, in conjunction with (a) Within Dacorum borough new social rented housing our international partners, will continue to raise it with completions are currently projected as follows: the relevant Afghan authorities, wherever appropriate. 319W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 320W

Australia: Diplomatic Service There are however, regular meetings between the Minister responsible for the BBC World Service and its Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign director. Most recently, Peter Horrocks met my right and Commonwealth Affairs when the appointment of hon. Friend, the then Minister for Europe (Caroline the next High Commissioner to Australia will be made. Flint), on 7 May 2009. [286707] Colombia Chris Bryant: My noble Friend Baroness Amos will take up her post in October 2009. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs when he last met Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign representatives of Justice for Colombia. [286858] and Commonwealth Affairs how many non-career diplomats have been appointed to the post of High Chris Bryant: My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary met my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Commissioner to Australia since 1997. [286789] Central (Tony Lloyd), Vice-Chair of Justice for Colombia Chris Bryant: Since 1997 three non-career diplomats (JFC), and representatives of the Unite and Amicus have held the post of high commissioner to Australia. trade unions in July 2008 to discuss human rights in Colombia. Kate Hoey: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign My ministerial colleagues and I regularly meet and Commonwealth Affairs when the term of office of representatives of non-governmental organisations with the present High Commissioner to Australia ends. an interest in Colombia, including JFC. Most recently, I [286850] met Colombian trade unionist Luis Alberto Vanegas and representatives of JFC on 2 July 2009. Chris Bryant: The current high commissioner to Departmental Consultants Australia, the right hon. Mrs. Helen Liddell, will leave post at the end of her appointment in September 2009. Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for My noble Friend Baroness Amos will take up her Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs with reference to post in October 2009. volume two of his Department’s Annual Report and Resource Accounts 2008-09, page 39, for what reasons BBC External Services his Department’s estimated expenditure on consultants has increased to £60 million in 2008-09. [286033] Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what involvement Chris Bryant: The figures quoted in the annual report his Department has in the determination by the BBC and resource accounts for 2008-09 included managed World Service of the languages in which it broadcasts. service provision. [285458] The Office of Government Commerce defines managed services as being Chris Bryant: BBC World Service (BBCWS) and the “the provision to management of objective advice and assistance Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) discuss where relating to strategy, structure, management or operations of an BBCWS can best operate and which language services organisation in pursuit of its purposes and objectives. Such are best served to do this. assistance will be provided outside the ‘business as usual’ environment when in-house skills are not available and will be The BBC Charter and Agreement, section 64 (3) (a) of no essential consequence and time-limited. Services may states as follows: include the identification of options with recommendations The World Service must be provided: and/or assistance with (but not delivery of) the implementation of solutions.” (a) to such users outside the UK, and in such languages, as are approved by the Foreign Secretary; and The managed services included Hewlett-Packard Joint (b) in accordance with any objectives, priorities and targets Service Delivery Team staff, Cap-Gemini staff working agreed with him. on Prism (the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) This is also referred to in section 10 of the Broadcasting management tool), and Fujitsu staff working on FCONet Agreement between the BBC and the FCO for the (the FCO intranet). provision of the BBCWS. Consequently, the figures for actual expenditure in The BBC and FCO discuss the opening or closure of 2007-08 and estimated expenditure in 2008-09 are not a language service prior to a final decision being taken. comparable. We do not believe the actual cost on consultancy has increased. BBC External Services: Meetings Departmental Contracts

Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs on how many Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the occasions he has met the Director of the BBC World answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, column 284W, Service in the last 12 months. [286857] on departmental contracts, what the monetary value is of each contract entered into by his Department during Chris Bryant: There have been no meetings between financial year 2008-09 with (a) Alchemist Partnership my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary and the Limited, (b) Avail Consulting, (c) Building Services director of the BBC World Service. Group Ltd., (d) Cambridge Econometrics, (e) 321W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 322W

Concerto Consulting, (f) Coombs Consulting Ltd., Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (g) Corporate Value Associates, (h) Haig Consulting (FCO) only has a static database of all of its contracts Ltd., (i) Hanover Aviation Consulting Ltd., (j) Hay in the UK and overseas which was compiled in the Group Management Limited, (k) Intuity Consulting latter part of 2008. Work is currently being undertaken Ltd., (l) Jedi Systems Consulting Ltd., (m) KPMG to convert this to a real time database. To gather all of LLP, (n) Methods Consulting, (o) Minimal Risk the contract information for 2008-09 would involve Consultancy Ltd., (p) Mott MacDonald, (q) Ove disproportionate cost so the attached response reflects Arup, (r) Oxford Policy Management Ltd., (s) PA records kept by the two contracts teams in the FCO and Consulting Group, (t) Projected Consulting Ltd., (u) FCO Services for 2008-09 which will cover a high Purcon Ltd., (v) Ridge and Partners, (w) RPS Health proportion of the contracts awarded by the FCO in the Safety, (x) TPS Consult, (y) Tribal Consulting, (z) UK during the period. UCT Ltd. and (aa) Venn Group Ltd. [285289]

Monetary Value (£) Comment

Alchemist Partnership Limited Tristan da Cunha Sustainable 53,200 — Development Plan Avail Consulting Vetting Unit Programme 148,500.00 — Building Services Group Ltd Strategy and Business Consultancy share of 4,000,000 framework Framework awarded to four suppliers, Services total monetary value of £4m Dubai Gatehouse - engineering advice 41,425 Framework Consultant Cambridge Econometrics Consultancy Services: Impact of oil 33,845 — prices on global economic recovery Concerto Consulting Senior Facilities Management Advisor 174,000 — Coombs Consulting Ltd Management Services Internal 70,000.00 — Consultancy Support to FCOS ESG Corporate Value Associates Strategy and Business Consultancy See Avail above Framework awarded to four suppliers, Services total monetary value of £4m Haig Consulting Ltd Estates Related Project Management 511,000.00 — Services Hanover Aviation Consulting Ltd Framework Agreement for Air DFID owned Framework. No FCO Brokerage Agent contract placed by FCO Contracts Team to date Hay Group Management Ltd Benchmarking for FCO Pay Grades in 17,000 — Asia-Pacific Region Intuity Consulting Ltd Consultancy Services for Programme 252,000 Annual Commitment and Project Mgt Services for PRISM Declassification Jedi Systems Consulting Ltd HMRC Support Contract 30,624.00 — KMG LLP Strategy and Business Consultancy See Avail above Framework awarded to four suppliers, Services total monetary value of £4m Methods Consulting Provision of Consultancy Services to 143,000 — FM Project Minimal Risk Consultancy Ltd Provision of Intelligence Staff in 387,935 — Afghanistan Mott MacDonald Basra: Hollyoaks - Additional 142,082 — Protection Ove Arup Kuala Lumpur - COW services 18,913 Framework Consultant Oxford Policy Management Ltd Provision of Economic Advice to 51,000 — Governments of up to five British OTs PA Consulting Group Strategy and Business Consultancy See Avail above Framework awarded to four suppliers, Services total monetary value of £4m Provision of Consultancy Services for 35,000.00 — Knowledge and Information Management Strategy Projected Consulting Ltd Projected Consulting Ltd 305,760.00 Configuration, Implementation and User Training for FCO Services Prism Software focusing on the Oracle Project Suites and modules and related applications Purcon Ltd PCMD Category Manager 47,838.00 — Ridge and Partners Podgorica New Embassy and Residence 90,000 Spend figure RPS Health Safety Madrid Asbestos Survey 7,000 Contract sum TPS Consult Khartoum Asbestos Survey 9,750 Contract sum Tbilisi - BREEAM assessment 11,462 Framework Consultant Staff Replacements 103,885 Framework Consultant Staff Replacements 131,684 Framework Consultant Mexico City - Facility review 6,095 Framework Consultant Stockholm -PerimeterWall 12,200 Framework Consultant Buenos Aries - Perimeter Wall 30,000 Framework Consultant 323W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 324W

Monetary Value (£) Comment

Chongqing - Post Quake Survey 14,500 Framework Consultant Minsk - Structural Review 6,600 Framework Consultant Tripoli-Blast Survey 12,000 Framework Consultant Kuala Lumpur - Blast Survey 25,000 Framework Consultant Rangoon - Feasibility study 7,800 Framework Consultant Tripoli - M and E survey 10,997 Framework Consultant Stockholm - blast glazing survey 4,240 Framework Consultant Brussels - Structural Survey 6,500 Framework Consultant Damascus - Delapidation Report 6,000 Framework Consultant Dubai - Gatehouse structural advise 19,200 Framework Consultant Pristina - Due diligence report 45,995 Framework Consultant Minsk - Structural Review 6,000 Framework Consultant Mexico city - Blast advice 16,532 Framework Consultant San Jose - Earthquake Report 17,800 Framework Consultant Khartoum - Structural Advice 5,713 Framework Consultant Boston - BREEAM Assessment 12,230 Framework Consultant Basra - Ad-hoc advice 1,000 Framework Consultant Tripoli - Survey report 28,540 Framework Consultant Tribal Consulting Provision of Strategic Partner to assist 99,000 — in Producing IT Training Strategy UCT Ltd Pyramid Software Development and 400,000.00 — Support IS Services and Management Information Systems Venn Group Ltd Provision of Security Guarding 125,000 — Procurement Lead

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Arup, (p) Ridge and Partners, (q) Toffco SDN BHD, Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the (r) Windell Ltd. and (s) Zeal Interiors. [285290] Answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, column 284W, on departmental contracts, what the monetary value is Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office of each contract entered into by his Department during (FCO) only has a static database of all of its contracts financial year 2008-09 with (a) Alfaplan Gradenje, (b) in the UK and overseas which was compiled in the Asbestos Removals Logistics Ltd., (c) ATG Access latter part of 2008. Work is currently being undertaken Ltd., (d) Bymaro, (e) Controlled Building Services to convert this to a real time database. To gather all of Ltd., (f) Gilbert Ash Fit-Out, (g) Gleeds (QS), (h) the contract information for 2008-09 would involve Gleeds Building Surveying, (i) GMW Architects, (j) disproportionate cost so the following response reflects HOK International, (k) Jordan + Bateman, (l) records kept by the two contracts teams in the FCO and Knight Frank, (m) Mayfair Building Services, (n) FCO Services for 2008-09 which will cover a high Orostream International Contracts Ltd., (o) Ove proportion of the contracts awarded by the FCO in the UK during the period.

Monetary value (£) Comment

Alfaplan Gradenje Dubrovnik Consulate Fit-Out works 53,202.37 Contract sum Asbestos Removals Singapore Asbestos Removal 76,614.00 Contract sum Logistics Ltd ATG Access Ltd Athens Perimeter Security Works 435,515 Contract sum Bymaro Rabat—Fire and Flood reinstatement 1,205,102 — Controlled Building Addis Ababa Office Extension 370,479.00 Contract sum Services Ltd Gilbert Ash Fit-Out Ibiza re-model and Fit-Out (Stage 1) 25,928 Contract sum Prague Refurbishment of Offices 498,894 Contract sum Georgetown Office Modifications 447,568 — Gleeds (QS) (See various contracts for Gleeds listed under Gleeds Building —— Surveying following) Gleeds Building Tehran—Tender analysis 4,707 Framework Consultants Surveying Dubai—Gatehouse OS Commission 14,547 Framework Consultants Basra—Office Fit-Out 63,000 Framework Consultants New Delhi—Strategic Review of Compound 210,502 Framework Consultants GMW Architects Tripoli—New Offices 40,250 Framework Consultants 325W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 326W

Monetary value (£) Comment

Jeddah—architectural services 14,445 Framework Consultants Tripoli—Architectural services 7,759 Framework Consultants HOK International Mexico City—Multidisciplinary services 73,376 Framework Consultants Boston—Architectural Duties 168,703 Framework Consultants Jordan + Bateman Portimao Consular Fit-Out 254,439.67 Consultant to Sherman Projectos e Servicos Architectural Design Services 34,560.00 Framework Consultants Baku—New Residence 557,506.00 Framework Consultants Dubai—Gatehouse architectural Commission 35,094.00 Framework Consultants Knight Frank Americas Property Evaluation 250,000 Contract sum Mayfair Building Caracas Safety and Rewire Works for Residential Properties 52,399.17 Contract sum Services Orostream Kabul Internal Fit-out works 637,152.39 Contract sum International Contracts Ltd Bogota 8th Floor Fit-Out 226,336.00 Contract sum Khartoum Replacement of Chillers 135,364.00 Contract sum Minsk Relocation of Classified Area 287,050.00 Contract sum Port Stanley Office Extension and Fire Precaution Works 188,010.35 Contract sum Podgorica New Embassy and Residence 778,000.00 Spend figure Ove Arup Kuala Lumpur COW services 18,913 Framework Consultant New Delhi—Strategic Review of Compound 13,500 Framework Consultant Canberra—Security works 84,116 Framework Consultant Ridge and Partners Podgorica New Embassy and Residence 90,000 Spend figure NW Europe Asbestos Surveys 77,785 Framework Consultant Tripoli—Asbestos Surveys 9,032 Framework Consultant Rabat—PM services 29,207 Framework Consultant Belgrade—Feasibility Study 25,000 Framework Consultant Ottawa Office—Upgrade 211,000 Framework Consultant Khartoum—Asbestos surveys 11,977 Framework Consultant Basra—Office fit-out 14,622 Framework Consultant Belgrade—Facade Repairs 22,752 Framework Consultant New Delhi—Asbestos Review 9,960 Framework Consultant Toffco SDN BHD Kuala Lumpur Repairs to Residential Block and Staff Club 19,013.04 Contract sum Kuala Lumpur Car Park Waterproofing works 83,992.80 Contract sum Kuala Lumpur: Replacement of East Perimeter Wall 276,434.00 Contract sum Windell Ltd Singapore Blast Enhanced Glazing 570,466.00 Contract sum Zeal Interiors Wellington—Office Refurbishment 215,163 —

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the (FCO) only has a static database of all of its contracts Answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, column 284W, in the UK and overseas which was compiled in the on departmental contracts, what the monetary value is latter part of 2008. Work is currently being undertaken of each contract entered into by his Department during to convert this to a real time database. To gather all of financial year 2008-09 with (a) Bramble.cc Ltd., (b) the contract information for 2008-09 would involve Business Objects (UK) Limited, (c) Computacenter, disproportionate cost so the following response reflects (d) Data Capture Solutions and (e) ODEC Ltd. records kept by the two contracts teams in the FCO and [285291] FCO Services for 2008-09 which will cover a high proportion of the contracts awarded by the FCO in the UK during the period.

Monetary value (£) Comment

Bramble CC Ltd Provision of Consultancy Services of Taxonomy Specialists 44,750 — Business Objects (UK) Ltd 07/08 Financial Model and Statutory Accounting System Support 337,000 — Computacenter Provision of Contractors through OGC Catalyst Framework 988,044.39 Spend figure Data Capture solutions Scanning of Treaty Texts — Price per page subject to usage ODEC Ltd Provision of Analyst for Joint Narcotics Analysists Centre 117,250 Contract sum 327W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 328W

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for in the UK and overseas which was compiled in the Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the latter part of 2008. Work is currently being undertaken answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, column 284W, to convert this to a real time database. To gather all of on departmental contracts, what the monetary value is the contract information for 2008-09 would involve of each contract entered into by his Department during disproportionate cost so the following table reflects financial year 2008-09 with (a) Ambrose HR Ltd., (b) records kept by the two contracts teams in the FCO and Capita Group plc, (c) LA International, (d) Morson FCO Services for 2008-09 which will cover a high Human Resources Ltd., (e) Morson International, (f) proportion of the contracts awarded by the FCO in the Spire Business Support Ltd., (g) TMP (UK) Ltd. and UK during the period. (h) Veredus. [285292]

Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) only has a static database of all of its contracts

Monetary value (£) Comment

Ambrose HR Ltd. Provision of consultancy services 37,484.00 Contract sum Capita Group plc Provision of contractors through OGC Catalist Framework 215,930.00 Spend figure LA International Provision of contractors through OGC Catalist Framework 3,344,102.99 Spend figure and FCO Services Framework Morson Human Resources Ltd See contract for Morson listed under Morson International —— below Morson International Provision of TWS staff 7,674,726 Contract sum Spire Business Support Ltd. Provision of consultancy services 121,000.00 Contract sum Veredus Provision of contractors through OGD Frameworks 694,188.38 Spend figure

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the (FCO) only has a static database of all of its contracts answer of 1 July 2009, Official Report, column 284W, in the UK and overseas which was compiled in the on departmental contracts, what contracts were latter part of 2008. Work is currently being undertaken entered into with (a) Coffey International to convert this to a real time database. To gather all of Development Ltd., (b) CP Recoveries, (c) Crown the contract information for 2008-09 would involve Agents, (d) Ebla Translations, (e) DGSI, (f) Disposal disproportionate cost so the following table reflects Services Authority, (g) Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP, records kept by the two contracts teams in the FCO and (h) Fugro Middle East, (i) GTZ, (j) Heathrow FCO Services for 2008-09 which will cover a high Airport Limited, (k) MCI UK Ltd., (l) RN Golds proportion of the contracts awarded by the FCO in the Associates, (m) SMA Ltd., (n) Thales UK Ltd. and UK during the period. (o) The Carbon Trust in 2008-09; and what the monetary value of each such contract was. [285293]

Monetary value (£) Comment

Coffey International Development Ltd. Civilian support to Ministry of Interior and 4,049,475 — Iraqi Police Service Fiscal policy assistance for Government of 46,510 — Maldives CP Recoveries Consultancy services—construction project 121,550.00 Contract sum review and remediation Crown Agents Life support services in Afghanistan 1,189,090 — Provision of interpreter for BCG Basra 52,908 — Ebla Translations Translation for Arabic and Urdu websites — Price per 1,000 words translated -subject to usage DGSI Provision of IT software and hardware 1,194,797.16 Spend figure Disposal Services Authority Managed disposal service 5,000 — Field Fisher Waterhouse LLP Provision of legal advisers to major 199,619 — Telecommunications procurement Fugro Middle East Dubai—Soil Investigations 7,509 — GTZ Drug education, detoxification and 500,000 — rehabilitation services to Afghan National Police Heathrow Airport Limited Service agreement in relation to royal suite at 686,100 —- Heathrow airport MCI UK Ltd. Event management services for FCO 207,104 — Leadership Conference 2009 RN Golds Associates Consultancy services—services and 33,510 — construction phase audit/QS services SMA Ltd Worldwide Lift Consultancy Term 1,634,457.23 Contract sum Commission 329W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 330W

Monetary value (£) Comment

Thales UK Ltd. Provision of and secure destruction of security 643,839.00 Spend figure goods The Carbon Trust Carbon Trust consultancies 110,000.00 —

Departmental Databases These contractors are Interserve and Compass. Both companies share responsibility for delivering different Jenny Willott: To ask the Secretary of State for facilities management services to the FCO, including Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what categories of cleaning, porterage, grounds maintenance and catering. personal information on members of the public will be Neither company operates a payband structure. held on each database expected to become operational In the case of Interserve, they employ 40 cleaners, in the next five years and which will be managed by his and one porter based in London who are paid less than Department or one of its agencies; what estimate he £7.45 per hour. They also employ 19 cleaners, three has made of the likely number of individuals’ details porters and one grounds maintenance operative based each such database will hold when fully operational; in our offices near Milton Keynes who are paid less and if he will make a statement. [286154] than £7.45 per hour. Compass employ 17 catering staff in London and Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office 12 catering staff in our offices near Milton Keynes who (FCO)’s Data Protection Register entry with the are paid less than £7.45 per hour. Information Commissioner’s Office is to be renewed in September this year. The general categories for which The contract the above companies deliver commenced the Department processes personal data for its work on 1 December 2008 and is set to run for a minimum of will be similar to those listed now, for example, processing seven years, with an option to extend for up to three a range of personal data for providing consular assistance further years. to British nationals overseas. However, the FCO will Both companies recognise all UK unions and actively continue to comply with the Data Protection Act 1998 consult with them on issues which affect their members. and governmental data handling standards.

Departmental Manpower Departmental Policy

Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Daniel Kawczynski: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs how many staff Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what policy his Department employed in (a) the Middle East and objectives he has set for the UK’s economic and (b) South Asia (i) in 2007 and (ii) on the latest date for political cooperation with its international partners; which figures are available. [285281] and what his assessment is of his Department’s performance against those objectives in (a) 2008 and Chris Bryant: On 1 April 2007 the Foreign and (b) 2009. [285288] Commonwealth Office (FCO) employed 133 UK civil servants at posts in the middle east and 104 UK civil Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office servants at posts in south Asia. (FCO)’s annual report for the financial year 2008-09 On 1 July 2009 the FCO employed 137 UK civil was laid before Parliament on 30 June 2009 and is also servants at posts in the middle east and 147 UK civil available at: servants at posts in south Asia. http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/publications/ We do not hold figures centrally for the numbers of publications/annual-reports/departmental-report/ staff recruited locally to work at each post. as is the report for 2007-08. The report sets out how the FCO spends public funds to meet its policy and service Departmental Pay delivery objectives.

John McDonnell: To ask the Secretary of State for Departmental Procurement Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the answer of 20 May 2009, Official Report, column 1420W, on departmental pay, who the employers are Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign who are paying less than £7.45 an hour for work and Commonwealth Affairs what changes have been contracted out by his Department; what the nature of made to his Department’s (a) office equipment and the work undertaken on each contract is; how many (b) stationery purchasing policy in the last six months. staff at each (a) payband and (b) location are working [285312] on each contract; what the duration of each contract is; and what union recognition agreements are in place Chris Bryant: In April 2009 the Foreign and with each contractor. [285513] Commonwealth Office (FCO) introduced a policy change for its stationery and office equipment requirements. Chris Bryant [holding answer 9 July 2009]: Two This ensures that an approved core-list of non-branded contractors working within the Foreign and Commonwealth products is purchased rather than more expensive brand- Office (FCO) pay some of their staff less than £7.45 per name alternatives. The policy change will save the FCO hour. approximately £32,000 in the current financial year. 331W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 332W

Embassies: EU Countries Chris Bryant: The information requested by the hon. Member is set out in the table. The information includes some current EU member states which were not members 10 years ago. Bob Spink: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign The apparent rise in costs in 2004-05 relate to a and Commonwealth Affairs what the cost to the public change in costing methodology. In 2006-07 the Foreign purse of the British Embassy in each other European and Commonwealth Office reverted back to the previous Union member state was in each of the last 10 years. methodology (and has continued to use this methodology [282838] since).

Net running costs for British embassies and high commissions in European Union countries Net running costs in each year (all figures in GBP) Embassy/high Country commission 1999-2000 2000-01 2001-02 2002-03 2003-04

Austria Vienna 5,284,113 5,474,148 2,794,757 3,196,085 6,209,295 Belgium Brussels 11,900,083 — 13,405,711 5,196,904 6,641,446 Bulgaria Sofia 1,045,318 1,595,213 3,225,912 — 2,321,637 Cyprus Nicosia 2,444,718 2,851,383 3,016,058 — 3,830,030 Czech Republic Prague 2,277,065 2,815,881 2,719,503 — 3,440,671 Denmark Copenhagen 2,855,888 3,286,808 3,558,954 4,300,612 4,507,265 Estonia Tallinn 1,006,415 1,299,208 1,167,332 962,467 1,547,297 Finland Helsinki 2,903,325 3,311,850 3,412,726 3,469,064 4,125,316 France Paris 14,438,010 16,358,233 15,022,547 19,884,234 20,270,541 Germany Berlin 10,078,569 12,055,033 12,976,590 14,214,571 12,641,292 Greece Athens 3,787,077 4,741,176 5,190,764 6,622,480 7,488,108 Hungary Budapest 3,908,898 4,183,592 3,796,268 4,501,150 4,941,115 Ireland Dublin 2,941,175 3,298,197 3,671,490 4,964,419 4,748,141 Italy Rome 8,818,516 9,693,033 7,888,783 10,747,995 10,166,167 Latvia Riga 997,955 1,593,727 1,693,576 1,714,186 1,636,662 Lithuania Vilnius 807,832 1,178,891 1,288,900 1,136,211 1,488,212 Luxembourg Luxembourg 886,140 1,187,541 1,146,021 1,290,995 1,320,058 Malta Valletta 973,582 1,552,250 1,779,689 1,960,630 2,348,864 Netherlands The Hague 3,713,759 4,031,701 3,941,971 4,672,907 5,184,064 Poland Warsaw 4,496,910 5,174,545 5,769,669 5,881,296 6,053,874 Portugal Lisbon 3,022,647 3,590,121 3,455,653 4,029,547 4,991,692 Romania Bucharest 1,756,600 2,476,491 2,423,329 2,842,576 2,592,479 Slovakia Bratislava 806,180 1,220,522 1,546,586 1,539,024 1,773,036 Slovenia Ljubljana 962,517 1,248,588 1,446,634 1,525,429 1,781,360 Spain Madrid 7,273,486 7,474,979 7,396,430 9,099,869 10,773,854 Sweden Stockholm 2,789,334 3,435,954 3,433,977 4,270,636 4,479,131

Net running costs in each year (all figures in GBP) Embassy/high Country commission 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Austria Vienna 7,901,171 7,091,980 5,154,578 5,928,659 6,781,395 Belgium Brussels 8,795,892 — 4,182,219 4,144,313 4,168,378 Bulgaria Sofia 3,580,902 3,917,076 3,909,167 3,156,833 4,067,144 Cyprus Nicosia 6,171,753 5,336,535 4,551,733 4,974,961 5,648,812 Czech Republic Prague 5,465,549 4,542,341 4,064,547 3,547,572 4,425,612 Denmark Copenhagen 6,521,838 5,743,562 5,916,598 4,073,563 4,774,473 Estonia Tallinn 2,178,864 1,871,677 2,119,125 2,093,100 1,391,670 Finland Helsinki 5,681,332 3,743,114 5,329,138 3,745,381 4,208,696 France Paris 26,849,816 18,452,952 18,575,183 16,086,714 20,739,467 Germany Berlin 38,957,543 15,132,205 16,826,684 15,675,405 16,911,590 Greece Athens 12,960,926 6,780,887 6,403,547 6,056,019 6,846,402 Hungary Budapest 7,067,258 5,600,271 4,969,077 4,289,562 4,733,193 Ireland Dublin 4,889,385 2,787,857 4,245,726 3,717,417 -3,176,461 Italy Rome 14,516,880 9,492,625 9,590,323 9,601,594 10,907,234 Latvia Riga 2,493,770 1,774,631 1,941,832 1,580,106 1,626,962 Lithuania Vilnius 2,823,759 1,815,066 1,778,462 1,711,964 1,996,889 Luxembourg Luxembourg 2,446,748 1,617,676 1,522,575 1,519,722 1,394,414 Malta Valletta 3,760,902 2,849,295 2,649,137 2,275,026 2,141,074 Netherlands The Hague 8,521,455 5,756,783 6,465,067 3,765,454 5,165,812 Poland Warsaw 11,019,212 7,566,280 6,900,570 6,218,564 7,751,832 Portugal Lisbon 6,606,631 3,937,855 5,029,238 -1,612,899 4,584,174 Romania Bucharest 2,778,120 5,024,590 5,062,753 4,996,143 4,681,311 333W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 334W

Net running costs in each year (all figures in GBP) Embassy/high Country commission 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

Slovakia Bratislava 2,834,615 2,016,006 2,461,017 2,030,605 1,947,497 Slovenia Ljubljana 2,955,471 2,128,466 1,813,669 1,906,867 1,834,833 Spain Madrid 14,900,850 9,854,579 8,102,549 7,471,356 -32,584,036 Sweden Stockholm 6,515,561 3,917,020 3,876,941 4,032,765 4,232,479 Notes: 1. Figures for all current European Union countries have been provided. However, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Malta, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia did not join the European Union until 1 May 2004, and Bulgaria and Romania did not join the European Union until 1 January 2007. 2. Figures for the embassy in Brussels for 2000-01 and 2005-06, and the Embassies in Nicosia, Prague, and Sofia for 2002-03 are not available and the IT system on which the figures were recorded is no longer in use. 3. The figures for the embassies in Lisbon for 2007-08, and in Dublin and Madrid for 2008-09 are negative due to net proceeds from sale of property.

Freedom of Information: Trident Locate’s performance, are informing how we develop this important consular tool. Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what requests for Royal Visits information under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 in respect of which his Department has disclosed information in the last 12 months have Lynne Jones: To ask the Secretary of State for related to the replacement of the Trident nuclear Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what assessment weapons system and its launch platform. [286851] he has made of the effectiveness of the participation on official visits sponsored by his Department of (a) the Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office Prince of Wales and the Duchess of Cornwall on visits has received no requests in the last 12 months under the to (i) South East Asia from 26 October to 5 November Freedom of Information Act 2000 related to the 2008 and (ii) Chile, Brazil and Equador from 7 to replacement of the Trident nuclear weapons system and 18 March 2009 and (b) the Duke and Duchess of its launch platform. Gloucester on a visit to Tonga from 27 July to 6 August 2008; and if he will make a statement. [286136] Iran: Internet

Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Chris Bryant: The Asia Tour by The Prince of Wales Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs pursuant to the and The Duchess of Cornwall in October to November answer to the hon. Member for Aylesbury of 25 June 2008 was highly effective in bolstering our relationships 2009, Official Report, column 1072W, on Iran: internet, with important countries. The visit to Japan was the whether his Department has received reports of the culmination of a year-long major UK-Japan festival Iranian Government using technology or software marking the 150th anniversary of UK-Japan diplomatic provided by British companies to inspect, monitor or relations. The environment and climate change were important themes, and a corporate leaders’ group on filter internet content. [286034] climate change was established. In Brunei, the British Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Foreign and Commonwealth garrison was a major feature along with initiatives to Office is not aware of any such reports. promote a low carbon, high growth, global economy. The key themes for the visit to Indonesia were climate Locate System change, environment and interfaith dialogue. Mr. Watson: To ask the Secretary of State for Their Royal Highnesses Latin American tour in March Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent 2009 was similarly effective. The visit to Chile encompassed assessment he has made of the effectiveness of his environmental, social and defence issues; His Royal Department’s Locate system for tracking British Highness participated in the launch of an energy efficiency programme for the young. The visit to Brazil centred on travellers. [286855] climate change and strengthened our growing relationship Chris Bryant: The Foreign and Commonwealth Office with this major regional player. It included constructive (FCO)’s overseas online registration and crisis database, discussion on sustainable development in the Amazon. Locate, enables British nationals to let the FCO know The visit to the Galapagos Islands of Ecuador marked about their travel and residence outside of the UK. It is the 200th anniversary of the birth of Charles Darwin also a tool designed specifically for handling consular and the 50th of the foundation of the Galapagos National crises. Since its media launch in May 2008, the FCO Park, and was a special opportunity to highlight wildlife website and Know Before You Go campaign literature protection. has encouraged British travellers to use Locate. We have Their Royal Highnesses The Duke and Duchess of also used Locate successfully as part of our response to Gloucester visited Tonga in 2008 to represent Her Majesty recent crises, most notably during the Sichuan earthquake The Queen at the coronation of King George Tupou and the Mumbai terror attacks in 2008. V. It was particularly important that a member of the An audit of Locate in March 2009 showed that many British Royal Family was present to bolster support for expatriate Britons around the world are registering with King George Tupou V’s voluntary surrender of Locate and that our embassy staff are trained and ready constitutional powers in order to make Tonga a to use the system in a crisis. The audit identified ways to constitutional monarchy. The tour also incorporated an improve Locate’s functionality and better promote it. official visit to the Solomon Islands to celebrate its 30th The results of the audit, and continual assessments of anniversary of independence. 335W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 336W

Spirit of Humanity Chris Bryant: We have received no recent reports on the legality of the practices of the Moroccan Government Bob Russell: To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign in extracting resources from the Western Sahara. I am and Commonwealth Affairs whether he has made however aware of academic papers on this matter by the representations to the Government of Israel over the Former Legal Counsel of the UN. interception in international waters by the Israeli navy The Government maintain the position that the of the Free Gaza ship, Spirit of Humanity and the Government of Morocco—as the de facto administering subsequent detention in an Israeli port of the vessel power of Western Sahara—are obliged under international and those on board; and if he will make a statement. law to ensure that economic activities under administration, [285849] including the extraction and exportation of phosphates, do not adversely affect the interests of the people of Mr.IvanLewis[holding answer 13 July 2009]: We are Western Sahara. unable to confirm whether the Spirit of Humanity was intercepted in international waters or in Gazan waters. When my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary spoke CABINET OFFICE to his Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Lieberman, on 1 July 2009, he raised the issue with him. Officials at our Civil Service: Manpower embassy in Tel Aviv confirm that they were given good access to the British nationals arrested by the Israelis Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet and that they were all treated well during their detention. Office how many full-time equivalent civil servants The Israeli authorities deported the British nationals on were employed in (a) the City of York unitary 6 July 2009 and they are now back in the UK. authority and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber by each Government department and executive agency in each Sri Lanka: Election Observers year since 1996. [285752]

Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will take within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. steps to seek to ensure that independent observers I have asked the authority to reply. monitor the forthcoming municipal elections in Jaffna Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: and Vavuniya in Sri Lanka. [285352] As National Statistician I have been asked to reply to your recent Parliamentary Question concerning how many full-time Mr. Ivan Lewis: At least two independent Sri Lankan equivalent civil servants were employed in (a) the City of York organisations intend to monitor the upcoming municipal unitary local authority and (b) Yorkshire and the Humber by election in Vavuniya and Jaffna. Our view remains that each Government department and executive agency in each year a political process, based on respect, inclusion and rule since 1996. 285752 of law is essential to address the underlying causes of In order to provide the information requested for York, ad hoc analysis has been required. This analysis is based on the Mandate the recent conflict in Sri Lanka. Ensuring all elections collection (1997-2006) which provides approximately 90 per cent are transparent, free and fair is a crucial part of this coverage of Civil Service departments and agencies and the process. Annual Civil Service Employment Survey (2007-2008) which provides 100 per cent coverage. For years prior to 2003 coverage is Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons lower. The requested data for York are attached in Annex A. Mr. Clifton-Brown: To ask the Secretary of State for The number of full-time equivalent staff employed in Yorkshire Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what and the Humber by government departments and executive agencies representations he has received on the ability of from 1996-2005 has been published by Cabinet Office and is residents of Jaffna and Vavuniya who have been available on-line: displaced and are being held in government clearing http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/about/who/statistics/archived- centres to vote in the forthcoming municipal elections reports.aspx in Sri Lanka. [285351] The number of full-time equivalent staff employed by government departments and their executive agencies for Yorkshire and the Mr. Ivan Lewis: The Sri Lankan Government announced Humber, 2006-2008, is attached in Annex B. special measures to enable internally displaced persons The information referred to as Annex A and Annex B has been (IDPs) to vote in the upcoming municipal elections. placed in the Library. Given the continued restrictions on freedom of movement Death: Alcohol in the IDP camps we understand that very few IDPs have registered to vote. We have raised regularly with Andrew Stunell: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet the Sri Lankan Government the need to allow IDPs Office how many alcohol-related deaths there were in freedom of movement and to make meaningful progress each age group in each primary care trust area in each on an inclusive political process. year since 1997. [285375] Western Sahara: Natural Resources Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. Jeremy Corbyn: To ask the Secretary of State for I have asked the authority to reply. Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs what recent Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: reports he has received on the legality of the practices As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your of the Moroccan Government in extracting resources recent question asking how many alcohol-related deaths there from Western Sahara; and if he will make a statement. were in each age group in each primary care trust area in each [286783] year since 1997. (285375) 337W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 338W

The table provides the number of deaths with an alcohol-related Table 1: Number of deaths where the toxic effect of methanol1 was the cause of underlying cause in each primary care organisation in England, death, Government office regions in England2, 2004-083, 4 by age group, from 1997 to 2008 (the latest year available). A copy Deaths (persons) has been placed in the Library of the House. Government office region 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Death: Bacterial Diseases East 00000 Midlands West 00000 Norman Lamb: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Midlands Office how many deaths attributable to necrotizing East of 00000 fasciitis there were in each of the last five years. England [285463] London 00001 South East 10100 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls South West 00100 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of I have asked the authority to reply. Diseases, Tenth Revision (ICD-10) code T51.1 (Toxic effect of methanol), where this code appeared as a secondary cause. Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: 2 Based on boundaries as of 2009. 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your 4 Figures for deaths registered in 2008 are provisional. recent question asking how many deaths attributable to necrotizing fasciitis there were in each of the last five years. (285463) Departmental Data Protection The table attached provides the number of deaths where necrotizing fasciitis was the underlying cause of death, in England and Wales, Mr. Blunt: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office from 2004 to 2008 (the latest year available). how many breaches of information security there have Table 1. Number of deaths where necrotizing fasciitis1 was the underlying cause been at (a) her Department and (b) its agency in the 2 3, 4 of death, in England and Wales , 2004 to 2008 last five years. [281083] Persons (deaths)

2004 70 Tessa Jowell: There was one significant loss of security 2005 79 classified information and one loss of personal information 2006 65 for the period 1 March 2008 to 30 March 2009. There 2007 87 were no such losses in the 12 months before that period. 2008 92 Figures for previous years are not available. 1 Cause of death was defined using the International Classification of Diseases, Information on breaches are published on an annual Tenth Revision (ICD-10) code M72.5 (Fasciitis, not elsewhere classified). basis in the Department’s annual report and accounts, 2 Figures for England and Wales include deaths of non-residents. 3 Figures are for deaths registered in each calendar year. as announced in the data handling review published on 4 Figures for deaths registered in 2008 are provisional. 25 June 2008. The Cabinet Office is not responsible for any Executive Death: Methanol agencies.

Norman Lamb: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Jenny Willott: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office how many deaths attributable to methanol Office how many (a) attempts and (b) successful poisoning there were in each region in each of the last attempts were made to gain unauthorised access to five years. [285464] each (i) database and (ii) ICT system run by her Department in each of the last five years; and if she Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls will make a statement. [286552] within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. I have asked the authority to reply. Angela E. Smith: It is not in the interests of the UK’s Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: national security for departments to confirm information As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your on the number of attempts, successful or otherwise, to recent question asking how many deaths attributable to methanol gain unauthorised access to departmental systems or poisoning there were in each region in each of the last five years. databases. Such disclosure could undermine the integrity (285464) and security of departmental systems and thereby expose The table attached provides the number of deaths where the them to potential threats. toxic effect of methanol was the cause of death, in each government The Cabinet Office complies with the mandatory office region in England from 2004 to 2008. requirements of the Security Policy Framework in relation The toxic effect of methanol does not appear as the underlying to information security including managing the risk of cause of death, but is identified from the secondary cause, or ‘main injury’ field in the death registration data. The figures unauthorised access to ICT systems. provided may include deaths which resulted from an accident, suicide or homicide. Employment Table 1: Number of deaths where the toxic effect of methanol1 was the cause of death, Government office regions in England2, 2004-083, 4 Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Deaths (persons) Office how many (a) men and (b) women were Government working in the economy in each region in each of the office region 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 last 30 years. [285686] NorthEast01001 NorthWest01000Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls Yorkshire and 00000within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. the Humber I have asked the authority to reply. 339W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 340W

Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: Northern As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your South West Wales Scotland Ireland Parliamentary Question asking how many (a) men and (b) Men Women Men Women Men Women Men Women women were working in the economy in each region in each of the last 30 years. (285686) 1993 1,143 967 617 522 1,203 1,006 345 263 The available information on people aged 16 and over in 1994 1,174 976 640 525 1,225 1,026 341 266 employment for 1992 to 2009 is shown in the attached table. 1995 1,184 982 641 541 1,213 1,052 350 279 Regional estimates for years prior to 1992 are not available on a 1996 1,187 1,008 648 535 1,199 1,040 365 292 comparable basis. This information is updated monthly as part of 1997 1,231 1,038 656 554 1,201 1,056 374 303 the Labour Market Statistics Bulletin and can be found on the 1998 1,242 1,052 641 554 1,216 1,082 382 299 National Statistics website at the following address: 1999 1,258 1,074 654 558 1,215 1,077 381 313 http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/product.asp?vlnk=8281 2000 1,275 1,087 659 570 1,214 1,085 381 295 The estimates are derived from the Labour Force Survey. As 2001 1,278 1,094 660 570 1,246 1,108 394 305 with any sample survey, estimates from the LFS are subject to a 2002 1,276 1,135 670 564 1,215 1,125 393 320 margin of uncertainty. 2003 1,294 1,123 689 618 1,269 1,137 420 330 People aged 16 and over in employment by Government office region and sex, 2004 1,323 1,132 712 611 1,269 1,158 395 325 three-month period ending May 1992; then April 1993 to 2009, United Kingdom, 2005 1,341 1,146 692 624 1,289 1,165 410 332 seasonally adjusted 2006 1,344 1,157 703 625 1,302 1,171 413 346 Thousand 2007 1,343 1,174 718 625 1,335 1,202 432 360 Yorkshire and 2008 1,383 1,182 732 631 1,340 1,211 430 363 North East North West Humberside East Midlands 2009 1,355 1,202 697 626 1,315 1,195 403 349 Men Women Men Women Men Women Men Women Note: The above estimates exclude people in most types of communal establishment 1992 570 485 1,605 1,332 1,191 981 1,026 831 (e.g. hotels, boarding houses, hostels mobile home sites etc.) 1993 559 488 1,573 1,313 1,171 991 1,017 838 Source: 1994 556 483 1,558 1,321 1,173 982 1,021 827 Labour Force Survey. 1995 552 474 1,563 1,311 1,191 985 1,042 846 1996 574 482 1,568 1,326 1,188 1,002 1,039 855 Mr. Clappison: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet 1997 572 488 1,603 1,350 1,177 993 1,066 881 Office how many and what proportion of (a) UK 1998 580 482 1,593 1,335 1,184 1,013 1,079 882 nationals, (b) UK born people, (c) foreign nationals, 1999 554 477 1,591 1,357 1,204 1,009 1,075 898 (d) non-UK EU nationals, (e) EU A8 nationals and 2000 572 500 1,656 1,371 1,216 1,038 1,099 904 (f) non-EU nationals of working age in the UK were 2001 578 492 1,635 1,414 1,217 1,054 1,088 892 in employment in the second quarter of 2009. [286459] 2002 571 520 1,609 1,427 1,235 1,039 1,096 903 2003 575 499 1,673 1,437 1,255 1,069 1,119 926 Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls 2004 589 528 1,678 1,463 1,274 1,100 1,119 949 within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. 2005 595 530 1,692 1,480 1,286 1,109 1,142 959 I have asked the authority to reply. 2006 615 545 1,704 1,493 1,313 1,118 1,158 988 Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: 2007 615 534 1,701 1,481 1,310 1,098 1,169 970 As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your 2008 617 546 1,688 1,470 1,334 1,128 1,171 990 Parliamentary Question asking how many and what proportion 2009 608 535 1,673 1,475 1,301 1,114 1,160 995 of (a) UK nationals, (b) UK born people, (c) foreign nationals, (d) non-UK EU nationals, (e) EU A8 nationals and (f) non-EU West nationals of working age in the UK were in employment in the Midlands Eastern London South East second quarter of 2009. (286459) Men Women Men Women Men Women Men Women The information for the April to June 2009 Labour Force Survey (LFS) quarter will not be available until 12 August 2009, 1992 1,284 1,011 1,374 1,079 1,658 1,361 2,008 1,648 the release date of the August Labour Market Statistics Statistical 1993 1,244 1,007 1,336 1,070 1,616 1,382 1,977 1,614 Bulletin. 1994 1,279 1,045 1,340 1,083 1,583 1,373 2,019 1,638 1995 1,297 1,033 1,366 1,093 1,637 1,398 2,026 1,654 Freedom of Information 1996 1,294 1,047 1,385 1,087 1,654 1,435 2,047 1,718 1997 1,327 1,051 1,379 1,120 1,725 1,448 2,108 1,727 1998 1,351 1,067 1,424 1,139 1,737 1,480 2,127 1,767 Mr. Hurd: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office 1999 1,318 1,087 1,430 1,158 1,831 1,548 2,179 1,798 when her Department plans to provide a substantive 2000 1,312 1,090 1,438 1,185 1,869 1,557 2,209 1,824 answer to Freedom of Information Act request 2001 1,339 1,084 1,474 1,223 1,917 1,572 2,188 1,843 FO1252511; and what the reasons are for the time 2002 1,344 1,102 1,472 1,231 1,945 1,570 2,215 1,866 taken to assess the public interest in relation to the 2003 1,334 1,108 1,463 1,214 1,938 1,557 2,194 1,870 request. [250312] 2004 1,343 1,119 1,492 1,260 1,967 1,564 2,200 1,840 2005 1,380 1,144 1,511 1,244 1,955 1,590 2,219 1,867 Angela E. Smith: The information requested under 2006 1,382 1,138 1,498 1,254 1,999 1,595 2,211 1,925 the Freedom of Information Act request FO125251 2007 1,354 1,124 1,525 1,244 2,022 1,608 2,217 1,926 was released on 8 June 2009. 2008 1,353 1,133 1,530 1,294 2,095 1,653 2,287 1,948 2009 1,328 1,101 1,512 1,281 2,040 1,669 2,256 1,923 Lord Ashcroft

Northern Mr. Gordon Prentice: To ask the Minister for the South West Wales Scotland Ireland Cabinet Office how many documents her Department Men Women Men Women Men Women Men Women has made available to the Information Commissioner 1992 1,171 938 649 535 1,251 1,031 345 273 in relation to the request by the hon. Member for 341W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 342W

Pendle under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for Official Report, 24 February 2009, volume 488, column 594 for information on the assurances given by Lord Ashcroft the average wage for (a) full-time and (b) part- time (i) male and on his tax status prior to his elevation to the peerage. (ii) female employees in the City of York local authority area in (A) cash and (B) real terms in (1) 1997 and (2) 2008. [285228] Information regarding the average household income of working age households is not available for the City of York local authority Tessa Jowell [holding answer 9 July 2009]: Information area. provided to the Information Commissioner as part of Regional Development Agencies an investigation is provided in confidence. It is not Cabinet Office practice to comment on such investigations. Dan Rogerson: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet Office what guidance her Department issued to National Income officials from regional development agencies on meeting hon. Members during the restricted period Chris Ruane: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet before the local and European Parliament elections in Office what the gross domestic product of each region 2009. [285382] of the UK was in each of the last 30 years. [286293] Tessa Jowell [holding answer 9 July 2009]: I refer the Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls hon. Member to the written ministerial statement made within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. on 19 March 2009, Official Report, 70W. Copies of the I have asked the authority to reply. guidance were placed in the Libraries of Houses and on the Cabinet Office website at: Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: http://www.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/propriety_and_ethics/ As National Statistician I have been asked to reply to your civil_service/election_guidance.aspx recent question about the average gross domestic product in each region of the UK for the last thirty years. (286293) Information on gross domestic product by region is not available HEALTH for years from 1997 onwards. However the Office for National Statistics does publish estimates of regional gross value added Accident and Emergency Departments (GVA) using official statistical geographies known as the Nomenclature of Units for Territorial Statistics (NUTS). Data at NUTS1 level Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health refer to Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales, and the Government (1) with reference to the announcement of his Office Regions of England. GDP at market prices is equal to Department’s Emergency Service Review on 3 June GVAat basic prices plus taxes on products (e.g. VAT, excise duties 2009, which standards in emergency care are classified on alcohol, tobacco and fuel) less subsidies on products (e.g. the as having been challenged in the winter of 2008-09; majority of agricultural subsidies). [283877] A full range of published NUTS1 GVA estimates from 1989, (2) when he expects to receive the report of the including GVA per head, is available on the ONS website: Emergency Services Review; and what data that review http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloads/theme_economy/ is analysing from the last and previous years to PROGRESS_NUTS1.xls understand the root causes of declines in performance. Although information on gross domestic product (GDP) is [283878] available at NUTS 1 for years up to 1996, it was compiled on different conceptual, geographical and industrial bases from the Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Emergency Services Review current GVA estimates and is not comparable. (ESR) is led by the Office of the Strategic Health Further information is available from: Authorities on behalf of SHA chief executives and will http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=14650 deliver a range of outputs including conferences, tools and guides rather than producing a single report. As Pay: York part of the ESR, a number of tools for local health services to use are being published this month, and a Hugh Bayley: To ask the Minister for the Cabinet series of regional conferences are taking place between Office what the average wage for (a) full-time and (b) June and September of this year. An Intensive Support part-time (i) male and (ii) female employees is; and Team has been established to support specific challenges what the average household income of working age within the local national health service in relation to households was in the City of York local authority area operational performance in the delivery of high quality in (A) cash and (B) real terms in (1) 1997 and (2) 2008. urgent and emergency care. The analysis undertaken [285825] has included detailed work with partners drawing on a broad range of quantitative data and expert input. Angela E. Smith: The information requested falls No formal classification of ‘challenged’ was applied within the responsibility of the UK Statistics Authority. to performance standards during last winter. The severe I have asked the authority to reply. weather in 2008-09 led to performance dips in some Letter from Karen Dunnell, dated July 2009: parts of the country during winter, both in ambulance response times and the accident and emergency (A&E) As National Statistician, I have been asked to reply to your 4 hour standard. Despite this, the NHS performed very recent Parliamentary Question asking what the average wage for (a) full-time and (b) part-time (i) male and (ii) female employees well, meeting the A&E 4 hour standard for the year and is; and what the average household income of working age performing well against the new, more rigorous ambulance households was in the City of York local authority area in (A) response time measurement. cash and (B) real terms in (1) 1997 and (2) 2008. (285825) Accident and Emergency Departments: Hampshire Average levels of earnings are estimated from the Annual Survey of Hours and Earnings (ASHE), and are provided for all Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for employees on adult rates of pay whose pay for the survey period Health how many people of each age group attended was not affected by absence. I refer you to the answer given in the accident and emergency departments in each NHS 343W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 344W trust area within the ceremonial county of Hampshire emergency departments (A and Es) for hospital providers for treatment for injuries sustained in an attack by a in the ceremonial county of Hampshire with a cause dog in each of the last five years. [286285] code of W54 (bitten or struck by dog). 2007-08 is the most recent financial year for which data are available. Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not available in the Information has therefore been provided for the five format requested. The following table shows the number financial years to 2007-08. of patients admitted to hospital through accident and

Admission episodes where the patient was admitted via A and E with cause code W54 (bitten or struck by dog), by hospital providers in Hampshire and age group NHS trust Under 10 10-18 Over 18 Total

2003-04 Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust 8 0 9 17 Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust * * 16 27 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust 0*** North Hampshire Hospitals NHS Trust ****

2004-05 Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust * * 14 19 Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust 14 6 13 33 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust 00** North Hampshire Hospitals NHS Trust 00**

2005-06 Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust * * 20 30 Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust 9 8 19 36 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust *0** North Hampshire Hospitals NHS Trust *0*7

2006-07 Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust * * 18 29 Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust * * 19 38 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust 0**8 Basingstoke and North Hampshire NHS Foundation Trust 0***

2007-08 Southampton University Hospitals NHS Trust * * 20 28 Portsmouth Hospitals NHS Trust * * 21 38 Winchester and Eastleigh Healthcare NHS Trust 00** Basingstoke and North Hampshire NHS Foundation Trust *0*7 Notes: 1. To protect patient confidentiality, figures between one and five have been suppressed and replaced with “*”. Where it was possible to identify numbers from the total due to a single suppressed number in a row or column, an additional number (the next smallest) has been suppressed. 2. HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in information submitted by the national health service have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of procedures may now be undertaken in outpatient settings and may no longer be accountedforin the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. 3. HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England. Data are also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. 4. Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in data (i.e. the data are ungrossed). 5. A finished admission episode is the first period of in-patient care under one consultant within one health care provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a person may have more than one admission within the year. 6. The cause code is a supplementary code that indicates the nature of any external cause of injury, poisoning or other adverse effects. The field within HES counts only the first external cause code which is coded within the episode. Cause code used: W54—Bitten or struck by dog. 7. The admission method field within HES contains a code which identifies how the patient was admitted to hospital. Admission method codes used in this case were: 21 = Emergency: via A&E services, including the casualty department of the provider 28 = Emergency: other means, including patients who arrive via the A and E department of another health care provider Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), the Information Centre for health and social care

Accident and Emergency Departments: Staffordshire the needs of their local populations. I have asked the South Staffordshire PCT to send this information to my Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health hon. Friend. what provision at what locations there is in the South Staffordshire Primary Care Trust area for emergency referrals for children, the elderly and vulnerable adults Cancer: Brain outside normal working hours. [285903] Sandra Gidley: To ask the Secretary of State for Mr. Mike O’Brien: This information is not collected Health how much the NHS spent on the treatment of centrally. Strategic health authorities and primary care brain cancer in each strategic health authority area in trusts (PCTs) determine how to most effectively meet each of the last six years. [286284] 345W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 346W

Ann Keen: The information is not available in the Table 1: Median in-patient waiting time for elective admission (weeks). Time periods 2003-07 (commissioner based). Inpatient Commissioner Hospital Based format requested. Waiting List Statistics: Specialties—Oral Surgery, Orthodontics Dental Services Gateshead North East Month ending Oral surgery Orthodontics Oral surgery Orthodontics Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what percentage of the (a) adult and (b) child March 2003 8.4 n/a 8.4 8.0 population of (i) Selby and York Primary Care Trust March 2004 7.9 n/a 8.4 8.2 area, (ii) North Yorkshire Primary Care Trust area, (iii) March 2005 6.0 n/a 6.6 n/a Yorkshire and the Humber and (iv) England received March 2006 4.2 n/a 6.6 n/a treatment from an NHS general dental practitioner in March 2007 9.3 n/a 6.5 n/a the last 24 months. [285867] September 6.8 n/a 7.1 n/a 2007 Ann Keen: Information is not available in the format Notes: 1. Figures are shown for organisations that existed at the time. requested. 2. In-patient waiting times are measured from decision to admit by the consultant Information on the number of patients seen by an to admission to hospital. 3. The last time this data was collected was for period ending September 2007. NHS dentist in the previous 24 months as a percentage 4. Where n/a, no orthodontic waiters were declared for the time periods of the population, in England, is available in table D2 of specified. annex 3 of the “NHS Dental Statistics, Quarter 3: 5. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rattier than patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. 31 December 2008” report. Data are available at primary 6. In particular, specialties with low numbers waiting are prone to fluctuations care trust and strategic health authority level, and are in the median. This should be taken into account when interpreting the data. provided by adults and children. The most recent published Source: Department of Health Waiting List Collections QF01 and MMRCOM information covers the period from 1 January 2007 to 31 December 2008. Table 2: Median out-patient waiting time for first out-patient appointment not seen (weeks). Time periods 2005-07 (commissioner based). Outpatient This report has already been placed in the Library. Commissioner Hospital Based Waiting List Statistics: Specialities—Oral Surgery, Orthodontics Dental Services: Waiting Lists Gateshead North East Month Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State ending Oral surgery Orthodontics Oral surgery Orthodontics for Health (1) how many people resident in Blaydon constituency were on a waiting list for orthodontic March 2005 4.4 n/a 4.5 5.4 March 2006 5.5 n/a 4.7 5.6 treatment in each of the last five years; [286246] March 2007 4.3 5.1 4.1 4.4 (2) how many people in (a) Gateshead Borough and September 4.5 6.3 3.8 4.5 (b) the North East were on a waiting list for 2007 orthodontic treatment in each of the last five years. Notes: [286288] 1. Figures are shown for organisations that existed at the time. 2. Out-patient waiting times are measured from referral by the general practitioner (GP) to first out-patient appointment to the consultant. Ann Keen: The information is not available in the 3. From 2004-05 all time bands for outpatients not seen were first collected so format requested. However, information on the waiting only average waiting first out-patient times can be made from this point in time. lists for orthodontic treatment in the Gateshead Primary 4. The last time this data was collected was for period ending September 2007. 5. Where n/a, no orthodontic waiters were declared for the time periods Care Trust (PCT) area is shown in the following table: specified or there were very low numbers declared. 6. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient Oral surgery—total number of incomplete pathways level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. In North East Strategic particular, specialties with low numbers waiting are prone to fluctuations in the Gateshead PCT Health Authority England median. This should be taken into account when interpreting the data. Source: August 2007 244 3,011 152,302 Department of Health Waiting List Collections QM08R and MMRCOM April 2008 136 3,850 121,032 April 2009 127 3,431 111,188 From 1 January 2009, no one should wait more than Note: 18 weeks from the time they are referred by their GP or Data on incomplete pathways only published since August 2007 Source: dentist to start of their consultant-led treatment unless Department of Health 18 weeks RTT data it is clinically appropriate to do so or they choose to wait longer. The 18 weeks commitment covers pathways Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State that involve or might involve consultant-led care, including for Health (1) what the average waiting time for (a) orthodontics, which is now recorded under the oral initial orthodontic assessment and (b) subsequent surgery speciality. orthodontic treatment was in Gateshead borough in each of the last five years; [286248] Latest data show that since January 2009, the national health service has been delivering the operating standards (2) what the average waiting time for (a) initial for 18 weeks to ensure that no one should wait more orthodontic assessment and (b) subsequent than 18 weeks from the time they are referred to the orthodontic treatment was in Blaydon constituency in start of their consultant-led treatment, unless it is clinically each of the last five years. [286249] appropriate to do so or they choose to wait longer. Ann Keen: The information is not available in the format requested. The following tables provide information Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State on the median in-patient and out-patient waiting times for Health what the average waiting time for (a) initial for orthodontics and oral surgery within the Gateshead orthodontic assessment and (b) subsequent Primary Care Trust and the North East Strategic Health orthodontic treatment was in England in each of the Authority areas. last five years. [286252] 347W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 348W

Ann Keen: Information is not collected centrally on Ann Keen: Information is not collected centrally on waiting times for orthodontic treatment provided in waiting times for national health service orthodontic primary care. treatment provided in primary care. Information is available for part of the period requested From 1 January 2009, no one should wait more than from which average hospital waiting times from referral 18 weeks from the time they are referred by their to first out-patient appointment and from decision to general practitioner or dentist to the start of their hospital admission (both day case and in-patient) can consultant-led treatment unless it is clinically appropriate be provided. to do so, or they choose to wait longer. This information available covers the period up to The 18 weeks commitment covers pathways that involve and including Quarter 2 2007-08. From Quarter 3 2007-08 or might involve consultant-led care. Referral to treatment this data collection no longer broke waits down by (RTT) data collection monitors the length of time from speciality. referral through to treatment and is used to measure Median orthodontic speciality out-patient waiting time for first out-patient performance against the 18 weeks operational standard. appointment England Information is collected on the total number of Month ending Weeks incomplete RTT pathways, for oral surgery, which includes orthodontic treatment. This data looks at patients who March 2005 5.1 have entered a RTT pathway but whose treatment had March 2006 3.9 not yet started. Data is available from August 2007: March 2007 4.2 Total number of incomplete oral surgery RTT pathways, England September 2007 3.9 Number Source: Department of Health Waiting List Collections QM08R and MMRCOM August 2007 152,302 Median orthodontic specialty in-patient waiting time for elective admission April 2008 121,032 England April 2009 111,188 Month ending Weeks Note: Data on incomplete pathways is only available from August 2007 onwards. March 2003 11.2 March 2004 9.2 March 2005 8.9 Mr. Evennett: To ask the Secretary of State for March 2006 6.8 Health how many people resident in (a) the London March 2007 4.0 Borough of Bexley and (b) Bexleyheath and Crayford September 2007 5.8 constituency were on a waiting list for orthodontic Notes: treatment in each of the last four years. [286691] 1. Figures shown are for those recorded under the orthodontic speciality. 2. Out-patient waiting times are measured from referral by the dentist to first out-patient appointment to the consultant. The data are based on a snapshot in time, and so will include some patients who were yet to see a consultant. Ann Keen: Information is not collected centrally on 3. In-patient waiting times are measured from the decision to admit by the waiting times for national health service orthodontic consultant to admission to hospital. treatment provided in primary care. 4. The last time these data were collected was for the period ending September 2007. From 1 January 2009, no one should wait more than 5. Time bands for all specialties were only collected from 2004-05 onwards for out-patients so average waiting first out-patient times are only available from 18 weeks from the time they are referred by their this point forward. general practitioner or dentist to the start of their 6. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient consultant-led treatment unless it is clinically appropriate level data, and therefore are estimates of the position on average waits. 7. In particular, specialties with low numbers waiting are prone to fluctuations to do so, or they choose to wait longer. in the median. This should be taken into account when interpreting the data. Source: The 18 weeks commitment covers pathways that Department of Health Waiting List Collections QF01 and MMRCOM involve or might involve consultant-led care. Referral to treatment (RTT) data collection monitors the length of From 1 January 2009, no one should wait more than time from referral through to treatment and is used to 18 weeks from the time they are referred by their measure performance against the 18 weeks operational general practitioner or dentist to start of their consultant-led standard. treatment unless it is clinically appropriate to do so or they choose to wait longer. The 18 weeks commitment Information is collected on the total number of covers pathways that involve or might involve consultant-led incomplete RTT pathways, for oral surgery, which includes care, including orthodontics, which is now recorded orthodontic treatment. These data look at patients who under the oral surgery speciality. have entered a RTT pathway but whose treatment had Latest data show that since January 2009, the national not yet started. Data are available from August 2007. health service has been delivering the operating standards The following table shows data for Bexley Care Trust. for 18 weeks to ensure that no one should wait more Oral surgery: Total number of incomplete RTT pathways than 18 weeks from the time they are referred to the Bexley Care Trust start of their consultant-led treatment, unless it is clinically appropriate to do so or they choose to wait longer. August 2007 757 April 2008 216 April 2009 183 Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State Note: for Health how many people were on a waiting list for RTT data are only available from 2007 onwards. orthodontic treatment in England in each of the last Source: Department of Health 18 weeks RTT data five years. [286253] 349W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 350W

Departmental Public Expenditure Ann Keen: The hospital admission data for 2007-08 for chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and all respiratory Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health disease in England and each primary care trust is contained what his latest estimate is of his Department’s (a) in a the table which has been placed in the Library. capital budget and (b) capital expenditure outturn in (i) 2009-10 and (ii) 2010-11. [286317] Hospitals: Waiting Lists Mr. Mike O’Brien: Details of the Department’s capital expenditure forecasts for 2009-10 and 2010-11 were Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for published in the 2009 departmental report (page 218), Health what the average waiting time was for (a) Cm 7593, which is available in the Library. elective in-patient admission and (b) first out-patient appointment in each specialty at York NHS Trust in General Practitioners: Working Hours each year since 1996. [285714]

Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information on the waiting what recent estimate he has made of the change to the times for York health services by specialty is shown in a number of patient appointments available following the table which has been placed in the Library. introduction of extended evening and weekend opening hours at GP practices in (a) Tamworth and (b) England. [286338] Injuries: Dogs

Mr. Mike O’Brien: Information is not collected centrally Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for on which individual general practitioner (GP) practices Health how many people aged (a) under 10, (b) offer extended opening hours. GP practices can voluntarily between 10 and 18 and (c) over 18 years of age were participate in a national scheme where they should offer admitted to accident and emergency departments in 30 minutes of extended opening for every 1,000 registered each hospital trust under the external cause code of patients. Guidance issued to primary care trusts (PCTs) W54 as a result of an attack by a dog in each year since suggests that this would normally equate to 12 to 14 2000. [285762] additional patient appointments being available in the average practice of 6,000 patients. However, there will Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information is not available be variations in the number of additional appointments in the format requested. Tables showing a count of the available within each practice dependent on the list size number (admission episodes) admitted to hospital via of each practice participating in the scheme. It is not accident and emergency departments for hospital providers possible to estimate the number of additional appointments in England, with a cause code of W54 (bitten or struck being delivered in Tamworth (South Staffordshire PCT). by dog) have been placed in the Library. This information However, nationally, we estimate that around 5.5 million has been provided by the following age groups: under additional new appointments may have been created 10, between 10 and 18 and over 18, for each financial based on the current levels of extended opening. I have year from 2000-01 to 2007-08—the most recent financial asked the PCT to provide any local information they year available. have to my hon. Friend.

Hospital Beds Kidneys

Chris Huhne: To ask the Secretary of State for Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pursuant to the answer to the hon. Member for Health how many hospital admissions for the Eddisbury of 1 June 2009, Official Report, column treatment of kidney stones were recorded in each year 117-8W, on hospital beds, whether his Department since 1997. [285445] collates data on the (a) sex and (b) age of occupants of hospital beds. [285724] Ann Keen: The following table shows how many finished hospital admissions for the treatment of kidney Mr. Mike O’Brien: The Department does not collate stones were recorded in each year since 1997. these data. However, the NHS Information Centre publishes Count of finished admission episodes for the treatment of kidney Hospital Episode Statistics for admitted patient care stones (ICD-10 codes N20.0 and N20.2) which are available by age and gender. Summary data Count are published at: www.hesonline.org.uk/Ease/servlet/ContentServer? 2007-08 33,639 siteID=1937&categoryID=193 2006-07 31,015 2005-06 28,555 Hospitals: Admissions 2004-05 26,210 2003-04 25,089 Mr. David Anderson: To ask the Secretary of State 2002-03 21,949 for Health how many hospital admissions there were 2001-02 21,288 for (a) chronic obstructive pulmonary disease and (b) 2000-01 21,145 respiratory diseases in (i) England and (ii) each 1999-2000 21,030 primary care trust area in the latest period for which 1998-99 21,074 figures are available. [286251] 1997-98 20,932 351W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 352W

Count of finished admission episodes for the treatment of kidney the NHS accounts for debts owed by trusts to bodies stones (ICD-10 codes N20.0 and N20.2) other than (a) his Department and (b) other Count Government bodies. [285937] 1996-97 20,158 ICD-10 Code Mr. Mike O’Brien: From 2009-10, accounting for all N20.0 Calculus of Kidney types of creditor transactions by national health service N20.2 Calculus of Kidney with calculus of ureter organisations is in accordance with International Financial Notes: Reporting Standards, as adapted and interpreted for 1. Ungrossed data the public sector by the Government Financial Reporting Figures have not been adjusted for shortfalls in data (i.e. the data are ungrossed). Manual issued by Her Majesty’s Treasury. 2. Finished admission episodes A finished admission episode is the first period of in-patient care NHS: Drugs under one consultant within one health care provider. Finished admission episodes are counted against the year in which the admission episode finishes. Admissions do not represent the number of in-patients, as a Mr. Baron: To ask the Secretary of State for Health person may have more than one admission within the year. We have how much has been paid in (a) legal costs and (b) provided finished admission with a primary diagnosis of ICD-10 codes N20.0 Calculus of kidney and N20.2 Calculus of kidney with compensation awards arising from cases of adverse calculus of ureter. incidents associated with the use of medicines outside 3. Primary diagnosis their licensed indication in the last 12 months. [286295] The primary diagnosis is the first of up to 20 (14 from 2002-03 to 2006-07 and seven prior to 2002-03) diagnosis fields in the Hospital Ann Keen: The information requested can be answered Episode Statistics (HES) data set and provides the main reason why the patient was admitted to hospital. only at disproportionate cost because the NHS Litigation 4. Data quality Authority does not record this information in a readily HES are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and accessible format. primary care trusts (PCTs) in England. Data is also received from a number of independent sector organisations for activity commissioned by the English NHS. The NHS Information Centre for health and NHS: Private Sector social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and Tony Baldry: To ask the Secretary of State for Health the effect of missing and invalid data via HES processes. While this brings about improvement over time, some shortcomings remain. on what criteria relating to (a) medical conditions and 5. Assessing growth through time (b) waiting times the eligibility of patients for access to HES figures are available from 1989-90 onwards. The quality and treatment funded by the NHS in private hospitals is coverage of the data have improved over time. These improvements in determined. [285989] information submitted by the NHS have been particularly marked in the earlier years and need to be borne in mind when analysing time series. Some of the increase in figures for later years (particularly Mr. Mike O’Brien: Under free choice, patients who 2006-07 onwards) may be due to the improvement in the coverage of require an elective referral can choose to be treated at independent sector activity. Changes in NHS practice also need to be any clinically appropriate provider that meets national borne in mind when analysing time series. For example, a number of health service costs and standards (including waiting procedures may now be undertaken in out-patient settings and may times standards). This includes all NHS Foundation no longer be accounted for in the HES data. This may account for any reductions in activity over time. trusts and NHS Acute trusts as well as a large number 6. Further primary diagnosis codes exist relating to kidney stones, of Independent Sector providers and their hospitals. however these are not limited to kidney stones and therefore have There are some services that fall outside the scope of been excluded these are: N13.2 Hydronephrosis with renal and ureteral calculous obstruction the choice policy. Where speed of access is particularly includes but is not limited to ureteric calculus of kidney and hydronephrosis. important (for example, patients attending a rapid access N13.6 Pronephrosis includes but is not limited to ureteric calculus chest pain cancer services under the two week maximum with calculus of kidney and hydronephrosis and infection. waiting time). Maternity and mental health services are Q63.8 Other specific congenital malformations of kidney includes but also currently exempt. is not limited to congenital calculus of kidney. Source: Hospital Episode Statistics (HES), The NHS Information Centre for Pharmacy health and social care Mental Health Services: Kent Mark Simmonds: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what support primary care trusts provide to Mr. Fallon: To ask the Secretary of State for Health pharmacies which do not reach their prescription items how much funding his Department has allocated for threshold for (a) one month, (b) six months and (c) the provision of mental health services in West Kent for one year. [286062] 2009-10. [286758] Mr. Mike O’Brien: Essential Small Pharmacy Local Gillian Merron: The information requested is not Pharmaceutical Services (ESPLPS) contracts are in place held centrally. Primary care trusts are responsible for for those low-volume pharmacies considered by their decisions about the funding of mental health services primary care trust to be essential to the proper and based on the priorities and needs of the local population. sufficient provision of drugs and medicines within its area. This provides a ‘top-up’ where the dispensing NHS: Debt activity falls below certain monthly thresholds. For other low-volume pharmacies it is a matter for the Mr. Stephen O’Brien: To ask the Secretary of State parties locally to agree what measures, if any, may be for Health pursuant to the answer of 15 June 2009, taken, including, for example, the commissioning of Official Report, column 494W, on the NHS: debt, how additional services. 353W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 354W

Pregnant Women advise planning for a range of scenarios. A copy has already been placed in the Library. These were based on Harry Cohen: To ask the Secretary of State for advice from the predecessor of the Scientific Pandemic Health how many health in pregnancy grants have been Influenza Advisory Committee, the Scientific Advisory made in the London boroughs of (a) Waltham Forest Group on Pandemic Influenza, and its subgroup on and (b) Redbridge; and what estimate he has made of Modelling. These assumptions are for a considerably the number of residents of each borough who will be more severe and more infectious illness than the illness eligible for such grants in 2009-10. [285819] currently seen in the United Kingdom or abroad with the swine flu virus A(H1N1). Mr. Timms: I have been asked to reply. The information requested is not yet available, it is York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust: Expenditure estimated that, 140,000 mothers-to-be in London will be eligible for the Health in Pregnancy grant in 2009-10. Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Prescription: Fees and Charges Health what capital expenditure York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust has incurred in each year since 1996-97. [285871] Lembit Öpik: To ask the Secretary of State for Health what recent progress his Department has made towards exempting from prescription charges people Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information is not available with long-term medical conditions; and if he will make in the format requested. a statement. [285917] The following table shows data for 2001-02 to 2006-07, which are the only years for which information is available Mr. Mike O’Brien: I refer the hon. Member to the for the York Hospitals NHS Trust. written answer I gave the hon. Member for Chorley (Mr. Hoyle) on 29 June 2009, Official Report, column 92W. Charge against the capital resource limit (£000) Primary Care Trusts: Working Hours 2006-07 (20,778) 2005-06 13,187 Norman Lamb: To ask the Secretary of State for 2004-05 14,916 Health how much has been allocated to each primary 2003-04 11,238 care trust in respect of compliance with the revised 2002-03 843 requirements of the European Working Time 2001-02 (9,281) Directive; and what assessment he has made of the use Notes: to which such funds have been put. [285462] 1. York Hospitals NHS Trust achieved Foundation Trust status on 1 April 2007. The Department does not collect data from foundation trusts, therefore no data are available for 2007-08. Ann Keen: A total of £310 million has been made 2. The term “capital expenditure” has been interpreted to mean the charge available to support implementation of the Directive. In against the Capital Resource Limit for the year. This charge is calculated as 2009-10 the tariff uplift includes £150 million implementing follows: (a) Gross capital expenditure in accruals terms for the period the Directive, while strategic health authorities will be (b) Less the net book value of assets disposed of able to target £50 million to support change and expansion (c) Plus any loss on disposal of donated assets in paediatrics, obstetrics and anaesthetics and other (d) Less capital grants received (e) Less donations trained doctor solutions. 3. The negative figures in 2006-07 and 2001-02 indicate that the trust has disposed of assets with a net book value greater than the amount spent on the Strategic health authorities have made clear to primary purchase of fixed assets in each period. care trusts and trust boards the availability of funding 4. For the available data since achieving foundation trust status, my hon. Friend and the criteria for its use. may wish to contact the York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust direct. Source: The strategic health authorities will report on usage Department of Health audited summarisation schedules. in due course. York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust: Waiting Times Swine Flu

Mr. Lansley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for pursuant to the statement of 12 June 2009, Official Health what the (a) average and (b) maximum waiting Report, columns 1052-62, on swine flu update, what time for (i) in-patient and (ii) day case admissions was scenarios have been planned for; and which of these at York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust in the has enabled his Department to plan for the worst. quarter ending (A) December 2006, (B) March 2007 [284274] and (C) June 2007. [285868]

Gillian Merron: The planning assumptions set out in Mr. Mike O’Brien: The information on the waiting the National Framework for Responding to an Influenza time for York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust is shown Pandemic, which was published in November 2007, in the following table:

Time band containing the longest Month ending Type Median waiting time (weeks) waiter (weeks)

2006-07 December 2006 Day case 8.5 25-26

December 2006 Ordinary 7.8 25-26 355W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 356W

Time band containing the longest Month ending Type Median waiting time (weeks) waiter (weeks)

March 2007 Day case 6.7 19-20 March 2007 Ordinary 6.5 19-20

2007-08 June 2007 Day case 6.0 19-20 June 2007 Ordinary 6.5 19-20 Notes: 1. The figures show the median waiting times for patients still waiting for admission at the end of the period stated. 2. In-patient waiting times are measure from decision to admit by the consultant to admission to hospital. 3. Median waiting times are calculated from aggregate data, rather than patient level data, and therefore are only estimates of the position on average waits. Source: KH07

York Hospitals NHS Trust: Manpower NHS Trust, excluding those transferred to Selby and York Primary Care Trust, in each year since 1996-97. [285869] Hugh Bayley: To ask the Secretary of State for Health how many full-time equivalent (a) medical Ann Keen: The data is not available in the format consultants, (b) other medical staff, (c) nurses, (d) requested. The following table shows national health other professional staff, (e) administrative and clerical service staff at the York Hospitals NHS Trust by main staff and (f) auxiliary staff were employed by York staff group as at 30 September each specified year.

Full-time equivalent 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

All Hospital and 102 98 110 109 120 113 119 131 149 155 158 157 Community Health Services (HCHS) Medical and Dental Consultants Of which:

Medical Consultant 97 93 103 104 115 108 114 125 144 150 152 152

All HCHS Other 159 176 172 171 138 124 174 189 195 215 222 217 Medical and Dental staff Of which:

Medical Other 153 166 161 160 131 119 166 180 184 206 212 208

All Non-Medical staff 3,399 3,230 3,234 3,451 2,967 2,605 2,817 2,927 2,958 3,149 3,067 3,232

Professionally 1,771 1,667 1,707 1,840 1,476 1,270 1,335 1,393 1,430 1,539 1,517 1,513 qualified clinical staff Qualified nursing, 1,362 1,235 1,268 1,375 1,132 915 948 990 1,023 1,111 1,071 1,030 midwifery and health visiting staff Qualified scientific, 409 431 438 465 344 355 387 402 407 428 446 483 therapeutic and technical staff Qualified Allied 228 246 245 257 154 169 187 195 194 206 214 231 Health Professions Qualified Healthcare n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a n/a 94 98 105 113 111 138 Scientists Other Qualified 181 186 193 208 189 186 106 109 109 109 121 114 Scientific, therapeutic and technical (ST&T) staff

Support to clinical 1,021 974 945 1,014 936 788 885 908 908 1,009 968 885 staff Support to doctors 915 866 832 887 783 605 688 707 696 793 764 670 and nursing staff Support to ST&T staff 105 108 113 128 153 183 197 201 212 217 203 215

NHS infrastructure 602 583 576 591 554 548 597 626 621 600 583 834 support Central functions 166 155 190 208 171 183 196 215 202 184 246 307 357W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 358W

Full-time equivalent 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008

Hotel, property and 344 331 290 291 299 286 304 311 320 302 303 457 estates Managers and senior 92 97 96 92 84 79 97 100 99 114 33 70 managers

Other staff or those 667610000000 with unknown classification n/a = Not applicable. Figures for Healthcare Scientists were not separately identifiable until 2003. Notes: 1. Full-time equivalent figures are rounded to the nearest whole number. Data Quality: 2. Workforce statistics are compiled from data sent by more than 300 NHS trusts and primary care trusts in England. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care liaises closely with these organisations to encourage submission of complete and valid data and seeks to minimise inaccuracies and the effect of missing and invalid data. Processing methods and procedures are continually being updated to improve data quality. Where this happens, any impact on figures already published will be assessed but unless this is significant at national level, they will not be changed. Where there is impact only at detailed or local level, this will be footnoted in relevant analyses. Sources: The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Non-Medical Workforce Census. The NHS Information Centre for health and social care Medical and Dental Workforce Census.

TREASURY Departmental Expenditure Limits

Quantitative Easing 22. Mr. Whittingdale: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what plans have been made for total 17. Mr. Jenkin: To ask the Chancellor of the Departmental Expenditure Limits in real and cash Exchequer what assessment he has made of the effects terms for 2010-11 and 2013-14. [286213] on the economy of the Bank of England’s decision to implement quantitative easing measures. [286207] Mr. Byrne: Departmental budgets are set until April 2011. The exceptional economic uncertainty we now Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Bank of England has face means that it would not make sense to set budgets operational responsibility for monetary policy, including now for 2014, less than half way through the current use of the Asset Purchase Facility. spending review period. The Chancellor will set out economic and fiscal forecasts at the time of the Pre-Budget The Bank publishes quarterly reports on the APF, report, when he will return to this issue. the first of which was published on 27 April. The Bank also reports on the APF in its Inflation Report and Departmental Databases Quarterly Bulletin and regularly publishes operational information for the APF on its website. Jenny Willott: To ask the Chancellor of the Comprehensive Spending Review Exchequer (1) what categories of personal information about members of the public are contained on each relevant database managed by his Department and its 18. Bill Wiggin: To ask the Chancellor of the agencies; on what date each such category of Exchequer when he expects to commence the next information began to be collected; and if he will make Comprehensive Spending Review. [286208] a statement; [285880] (2) what categories of personal information on Mr. Byrne: Departmental budgets are set until April members of the public will be held on each database 2011. The exceptional economic uncertainty we now expected to become operational in the next five years face means that it would not make sense to set budgets which will be managed by his Department or one of its now for 2014, less than half way through the current agencies; what estimate he has made of the likely spending review period. The Chancellor will set out number of individuals’ details each such database will economic and fiscal forecasts at the time of the Pre-Budget hold when fully operational; and if he will make a report, when he will return to this issue. statement; [286151] (3) what databases which will be managed by his 21. Stephen Hammond: To ask the Chancellor of the Department or one of its agencies and which will Exchequer what steps his Department is taking in contain personal information are (a) under preparation for the next Comprehensive Spending construction and (b) expected to be operational in Review. [286211] each of the next five years; and if he will make a statement. [286508] Mr. Byrne: Departmental budgets are set until April 2011. The exceptional economic uncertainty we now Sarah McCarthy-Fry: I refer the hon. Member to the face means that it would not make sense to set budgets answer that I gave to her on 8 July 2009, Official Report, now for 2014, less than half way through the current column 877W. For those databases, managed by the spending review period. The Chancellor will set out Treasury and its agencies, containing personal information economic and fiscal forecasts at the time of the Pre-Budget about members of the public, the following categories report, when he will return to this issue. of data are held: 359W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 360W

Financial Sanctions (all categories collected since October Economic Growth 2007): Personal identification information, contact information, Mr. Binley: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer information related to financial sanctions. what recent assessment he has made of the future rate Gilts Register (all categories collected since December of growth of the economy. [286209] 2004) Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As set out in the Budget: Personal identification information, contact information, information related to gilts registration. ″GDP is forecast to contract sharply in the first half of 2009, by 4 per cent. on a year earlier, to stabilise in the second half of DMO Job Applicants (all categories collected since 2004): the year, and then to pick up progressively through 2010 and Personal identification information, contact information. 2011″. All data stored on Treasury databases are managed in Equitable Life Assurance Society accordance with the requirements of the Data Protection Act. Sandra Gidley: To ask the Chancellor of the There are currently no new databases managed by the Exchequer what reports he has received of the progress Department, or its agencies, which will contain personal made by Sir John Chadwick in the formulation of his information of any kind, either under construction or advice on an Equitable Life ex-gratia payment scheme. expected to become operational over the next five years. [286196] Following the publication of the cross government data handling review in June 2008, any new projects or Mr. Byrne: Sir John provides regular updates to the programmes that propose to hold significant amounts Government on the progress of his work. Sir John has of personal data will be obliged to conduct privacy already established his Office, appointed its key members impact assessments. and actuarial advisers, and has established a website. Departmental Electronic Equipment On 16 June Sir John issued a document setting out his proposed approach and he has requested comments to this by 17 July. Jenny Willott: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how many (a) photocopiers, (b) scanning Financial Action Task Force devices and (c) fax machines, excluding multi-function devices, there are in his Department; how many there Andrew Stunell: To ask the Chancellor of the were in each of the last three years; and if he will make Exchequer (1) whether the Government has received a statement. [286164] warnings from the Financial Action Task Force for non-compliance with its recommendations on Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Treasury currently has no combating the laundering of corrupt funds; [285378] stand-alone photocopiers. Photocopying is carried out (2) on how many occasions the Government has on multi-function devices. The other information requested delivered a progress report to the Financial Action is not held centrally and could be provided only at a Task Force for non-compliance with its disproportionate cost. recommendations on (a) requiring banks to perform Banks: Regulation enhanced due diligence for politically exposed persons and (b) preventing the unlawful use of legal persons by money launderers; [285379] Keith Vaz: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what further plans he has for the reform of banking (3) whether the Government has received representations from the Financial Action Task Force regulation. [286212] (FATF) on the Government’s compliance with FATF Sarah McCarthy-Fry: As set out in the Chancellor of recommendations on tackling money laundering. the Exchequer’s statement to the House on 8 July, the [285799] Government’s plans for the reform of banking regulation Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The anti-money laundering and are presented in the document ’Reforming financial countering the finance of terrorism regime of the UK markets.’ Legislation will follow, where necessary, in the was last evaluated by the FATF in 2007. The UK next session. achieved one of the highest overall compliance ratings Banks: Remuneration of Senior Employees of any country evaluated so far and was required to report in two years on progress in addressing the deficiencies the report identified. Tony Lloyd: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with banks in public That progress report was delivered in June this year. ownership on remuneration packages for their senior The report detailed all the action that had been taken in employees. [286210] addressing each deficiency identified in the FATF mutual evaluation and will shortly be published on the FATF Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government have been website. clear that any rewards for senior employees in the banks In the follow up report, the UK detailed the changes must be based on solid, long-term performance which made to its regime since 2007, including the implementation rebuilds the bank and delivers a good return for the of a requirement for banks to carry out enhanced due taxpayer. As a shareholder, UKFI has worked closely diligence when conducting business with politically exposed with the bank to ensure these principles are adhered to. persons, thereby rectifying the identified shortfalls that The implementation of this is for the banks’ boards, in led to the non-compliant rating against the recommendation consultation with UKFI. on combating the laundering of corrupt funds. 361W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 362W

Financial Ombudsman Service: Complaints £3 per week rise would require an increase of £780 The national insurance contributions (NICs) system in its Adam Afriyie: To ask the Chancellor of the present form has no facility that would allow the increase Exchequer what information his Department holds on in net income to be clawed back from those who earn the average time taken by the Financial Ombudsman over £18,000 and pay primary Class 1 or Class 4 NICs. Service to respond to complaints by members of the To do so would require each individual affected to public in the last six months. [285677] have a different rate of NICs dependent on their income to ensure the income rises are exactly clawed back by Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Financial Ombudsman the increase in NICs. Service (FOS) is operationally independent from Government. The steps taken by the Financial Ombudsman Public Expenditure Service to deal with the demands it faces are detailed in its Corporate Plan and budget 2009-10 published in March 2009. Miss McIntosh: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer what recent discussions he has had with the Interest Rates Secretary of State for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on that Department’s departmental Mr. Sanders: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer expenditure limits for the next three years. [286538] if he will assess the effect of lower interest rates on (a) the income and (b) retail spending levels of those over Mr. Byrne: The Secretary of State for the Environment, 65 years of age whose income is largely dependent on Food and Rural Affairs and Treasury ministers have their savings. [285208] regular discussion on a range of issues in the conduct of their duties including the Departmental Expenditure Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government recognise that Limits of the Department for the Environment, Food historically low interest rates have particularly impacted and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). on pensioners. Budget 2009 announced a package of DEFRA’s Departmental Expenditure Limits for 2009-10 support for pensioners who receive an income from and 2010-11 were published on 19 June 2009 in Public savings. Expenditure Statistical Analysis 2009. In order to help those pensioners who may have been Departmental expenditure limits for all departments affected by lower interest rates, the Government will be for the period after 2010-11 will be set at the next increasing the annual ISA investment limits for people Spending Review. aged 50 and over to £10,200, up to £5,100 of which can be held in cash, from October 2009. Public Services: Finance To provide additional support, the capital disregard in pension credit and pensioner-related housing and council tax benefit will increase in November 2009, Hywel Williams: To ask the Chancellor of the meaning the first £10,000 of savings will not be included Exchequer whether his Department undertook a needs when calculating someone’s entitlement for these income- assessment of the cost of provision of public services in related benefits. This is expected to increase the income England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in of 540,000 low-income households by an average of 1994. [285812] £4 a week. The Government are also launching a new tax back Mr. Byrne [holding answer 13 July 2009]: The Treasury campaign, through which pension credit recipients will produced an update of the 1979 Needs Assessment for be contacted to encourage them to claim back tax they Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1994. may have overpaid on their savings income and, where possible, register to receive interest on their savings Revenue and Customs tax-free in future. The Government have also committed to maintain Dan Rogerson: To ask the Chancellor of the the standard interest rate used to calculate support for Exchequer what requests received by HM Revenue and mortgage interest at 6.08 per cent. for a further six Customs under the provisions of the Freedom of months until the end of December 2009, to provide Information Act 2000 in 2008 were (a) classified as not continued support for home owners on pension credit resolvable and (b) refused in full. [286132] who receive help with their mortgage. Personal Income Mr. Timms: In 2008 HMRC received 1,288 Freedom of Information requests. Of these, 174 were classified as not resolvable in that HMRC either did not hold the Mr. Frank Field: To ask the Chancellor of the information requested, or asked the requestor to clarify Exchequer if he will estimate the net cost to the public the information they were seeking. purse of increasing personal allowances to provide a (a) £2 and (b) £3 rise in net income per week if the Of the remaining requests, HMRC fully withheld the whole of the value of the increase in income were information in 312 cases. The most frequent reason for clawed back through national insurance contributions withholding information is in response to requests for from those earning more than £18,000 per year. [286911] customer information, relating to either individuals or companies. Mr. Timms: £2 per week rise in net income would The text for these 486 requests could be located and require an increase in the personal allowance of £520. extracted only at disproportionate cost. 363W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 364W

Taxation: Bingo Taxation: Repayments

Steve Webb: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Chancellor of the (1) in how many and what proportion of tax credit Exchequer (1) what recent representations his cases in which tax credits were overpaid those Department has received on changes to the taxation overpayments were being repaid by claimants in each regime for bingo; [286054] year since their introduction; [286071] (2) what representations his Department received (2) how many and what proportion of tax credit from representatives of the bingo industry on estimates claimants have been required to repay tax credits in made by his Department in relation to the effects on each year since they were introduced. [286066] that industry of recent changes to the taxation regime for bingo; and if he will make a statement; [286058] Mr. Timms: This information is not available. (3) whether he has had discussions with the The latest estimates of the number of families with Department for Business, Innovation and Skills on his tax credit awards, including information on overpayments Department’s proposals in relation to the introduction based on final family circumstances and incomes are of a gross profit tax system to replace amusement published on the HM Revenue Customs website at machine licence duty; [286078] www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/personal-tax-credits/menu.htm (4) whether he has had discussions with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport on his VAT: Garages Department’s proposals in relation to the introduction of a gross profit tax in place of amusement machine Mr. Stewart Jackson: To ask the Chancellor of the licence duty; and if he will make a statement; [286085] Exchequer whether the rules on value added tax liability of garages rented by local authorities to (5) what representations he has received on his householders have been amended since 1997. [286518] Department’s planned consultation on proposals to introduce a gross profit tax in place of amusement Mr. Timms: No. machine licence duty; [286086] (6) what representations his Department has received on changes to the amusement machine licence duty BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS regime by means other than the introduction of a gross profits tax. [286103] Apprentices

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: Treasury Ministers and officials Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, meet with a wide range of organisations and individuals Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how in the public and private sectors as part of the usual many apprenticeship places have been created as a policymaking process. As was the case with previous result of the awarding of new public procurement Administrations, it is not the Government’s practice to contracts since January 2009; and if he will make a provide details of all such discussions. statement. [283898]

Kevin Brennan: We do not have a central record of Taxation: Gaming Machines how many apprenticeship places have been created as a result of the award of new public sector contracts. There is no formal requirement in place in the Mr. Bellingham: To ask the Chancellor of the Apprenticeships programme to record this information. Exchequer (1) what timetable he has set for his A number of Departments and agencies have already Department’s consultation on proposals to introduce brought forward firm, quantified commitments to creating of a gross profit tax in place of amusement machine apprenticeship opportunities through their procurement licence duty; and if he will make a statement; [286080] processes. The Olympic Delivery Authority has pledged (2) what estimate he has made of the cost to the to create an extra 250 apprenticeship places through the public purse of introducing a gross profit tax in place development of the Olympic Park and Village. Through of amusement machine licence duty; and if he will Building Schools for the Future procurement, we expect make a statement; [286083] to create an additional 1,000 apprenticeship places, (3) what estimate his Department has made of the building on existing commitments in Building Colleges likely change in revenue accruing to the Exchequer for the Future where we estimate that on average one in consequent on the introduction of a gross profit tax on every 20 workers employed on college construction gaming machines; and what methodology was used to projects is an apprentice. determine that estimate; [286099] Lorely Burt: To ask the Minister of State, (4) what assessment his Department has made of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what likely effects on the amusement machine industry of guidance his Department has issued on the inclusion of the introduction of a gross profit tax to replace the apprenticeship opportunities in criteria for amusement machine licence duty system. [286104] Government procurement contracts. [283899]

Sarah McCarthy-Fry: The Government plan to launch Kevin Brennan: The Government are committed to the consultation and a consultation stage impact assessment using the unique leverage of their £175 billion procurement soon. The Government will produce and publish a final programme to promote skills training and apprenticeship stage impact assessment after the consultation has closed. opportunities. 365W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 366W

In April the then Department for Innovation, Universities Ian Lucas: The new offence under the Companies and Skills and the Office of Government Commerce Act 2006 of carrying on business under a name that published “Promoting Skills through Public Procurement”, gives so misleading an indication of the nature of the a new guide to provide procurers across the public business’s activities as to likely to cause harm to the sector with practical advice on how skills training and public will come into force on 1 October 2009. As this apprenticeships can be promoted through public will address the problem of bogus colleges, I do not procurement processes—both when letting new contracts, intend to add “college” to the list of words for which the and working with existing contractors on a voluntary Secretary of State’s prior approval is required for their basis. inclusion in either a company’s registered name or any person’s business name. Mr. Hayes: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what the average Consumer Protection Act 1987 number of apprentices in training was in (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09. [286220] Mrs. Laing: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how Kevin Brennan [holding answer 13 July 2009]: There many requests for communications data were made by were 224,800 apprenticeship starts in 2007/08, the latest trading standards officials to communication service year for which we have full-year information. In total, providers (CSPs) under the (a) Consumer Protection there were 418,900 learners participating on apprenticeship Act 1987, (b) Fair Trading Act 1973, (c) Trade programmes in 2007/08. This includes learners who had Descriptions Act 1968 in (i) 2000, (ii) 2001, (iii) 2002, started their programme in previous academic years. In (iv) 2003, (v) 2004, (vi) 2005, (vii) 2006, (viii) 2007 and the first nine months of 2008/09 (1 August 2008 to (ix) 2008; and how many of these requests resulted in 30 April 2009, provisional), there were 196,600 the requested communications data being disclosed by apprenticeship starts. the relevant CSP. [284864] In “World-Class Apprenticeships”, we announced that we were changing the way we count apprenticeships, Kevin Brennan: Local authorities will make requests moving to counting the number of people starting an to service providers for subscriber details as part of apprenticeship in the year (‘starts’) and the percentage their enforcement activities on a case by case basis. This who complete an apprenticeship (‘completion rate’). information is held by the respective local authorities and is not collected by central Government. Apprentices: Finance Consumers: Protection Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Mr. Drew: To ask the Minister of State, Department recent discussions he has had with the Learning and for Business, Innovation and Skills what steps his Skills Council on funding the Council has allocated to Department takes to ensure that consumers entering training providers for the provision of new into contracts with (a) utilities, (b) communications apprenticeship places in 2009-10. [284682] providers, (c) internet service providers, (d) media services, (e) banks and (f) software companies are Kevin Brennan: The Government have made clear to provided with comprehensible forms to protect them the Learning and Skills Council (LSC) that apprenticeships from agreeing to unfair terms. [284735] are a key route to building the national skills base. The Government are committed to significant growth in Kevin Brennan: The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract apprenticeships for young people and adults. Regulations 1999 (UTCCRs) protect consumers when The LSC has issued final allocations to providers for entering into contracts. Companies who deal with apprenticeships for the academic year 2009/10. Funding consumers and use standard form contracts must ensure for apprenticeships has increased by almost a quarter they do not use unfair terms. Under the UTCCRs, an between 2007-08 and 2009-10, to over £1 billion. unfair term is defined as one which, contrary to the requirements of good faith, causes a significant imbalance Government funding will provide for over 250,000 in the parties’ rights and obligations under the contract new apprenticeship starts in the academic year 2009-10, to the detriment of the consumer. including an additional 30,000 of the 35,000 new starts The UTCCRs require that all contract terms are announced by the Government in January 2009. expressed in plain, intelligible language. The indicative list of terms which may be unfair includes terms with Companies Act 2006 which the consumer has had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract. Bob Russell: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) Departmental Energy what progress his Department has made in its assessment of the merits of using provisions of the Gregory Barker: To ask the Minister of State, Companies Act 2006 to protect the use of the word Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how college; [285603] much (a) electricity and (b) gas was used (i) on his (2) if he will take steps to restrict the use of the word Department’s predecessors’ estate and (ii) by his college to educational establishments providing Department’s predecessors’ agencies in each year from education to recognised standards. [285604] 2004-05 to 2008-09. [280515] 367W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 368W

Mr. McFadden: Electricity and gas consumption figures £ for BIS and its predecessors are as follows: 2004-05 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09

kWh Electricity 55,779.38 66,796.09 10,156.98 40,963.17 41,396.33 Electricity Gas Gas 17,551.23 26,730.70 23,993.23 23,579.51 29,409.96 2004-05 17,867,158 6,385,773 Letter from Ian Fletcher, dated 24 June 2009: 2005-06 18,294,370 6,011,530 I am responding on behalf of the Intellectual Property Office 2006-07 15,721,409 4,380,799 to your Parliamentary Question tabled 12 June 2009, to the 2007-08 14,068,343 5,040,888 Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and 2008-09 12,644,998 6,400,222 Skills. In the last 4 years the following quantities of gas and electricity The figures shown for 2007-08 and 2008-09 include were used within the Intellectual Property Office; 05/06 through consumption by DIUS who occupied floors in a BIS to 08/09 as follows: managed building, Kingsgate House, in London. The 2005/06 figures do not include DIUS consumption in buildings Gas: 4,451,422 kwH managed by DCSF where DIUS also occupied space. Electric: 2,952,075 kwH I have approached the chief executives of the Insolvency 2006/07 Service, Companies House, National Weights and Measures Gas: 4,065,852 kwH Laboratory and UK Intellectual Property Office and they will respond directly to you. Electric: 3,415,314 kwH 2007/08 Letter from Stephen Speed, dated 14 July 2009: Gas: 3,982,293 kwH The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, has asked me to reply to you directly on behalf of The Electric: 3,404,358 kwH Insolvency Service in relation to how much (a) electricity and (b) 2008/09 gas was used (i) on his Department’s predecessors’ estate and (ii) Gas: 4,035,357 kwH by his Department’s predecessors’ agencies in each year from 2004-05 to 2008-09. Electric: 3,379,787 kwH The table shows the amount of electricity and gas consumption Figures are for Concept House and NMP. Harmsworth House (in kilowatt hours) that has been directly billed to the Insolvency consumption was included in the service charge and not monitored Service by utility providers. separately. We are not able to provide figures for 04/05 within the specified Financial year Electricity Gas time frame as these records are not kept electronically at present and paper records are held off site in storage. 2004-05 2722806 610187 2005-06 2777875 565826 Education: Standards 2006-07 2770868 389574 2007-08 2892755 471518 Bob Russell: To ask the Minister of State, 2008-09 2336081 659159 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) In about half of its offices, The Insolvency Service is billed what representations he has received on the effects on indirectly via a building services charge and where this is the case the reputation of the higher and further education we are unable to identify energy, consumption separately. sectors of trends in the numbers of establishments purporting to be colleges but not providing education Letter from Gareth Jones, dated 14 July 2009: to recognised standards; [285600] I am replying on behalf of Companies House to your Parliamentary (2) what steps he plans to take to cease the Question tabled on 12 June 2009, UIN 280515, to the Minister of operations of organisations purporting to provide State for the Department for Business Innovation and Skills. educational courses but not doing so to recognised The amounts of electricity and gas used by Companies House standards. [285602] are as follows: Kevin Brennan: This Department and its predecessors Year Electricity (kwh) Gas (kwh) have received representations on this issue from a number 2004-05 4,885,487 2,068,553 of parties. Following the Home Affairs Select Committee 2005-06 5,458,489 1,894,193 on 16 June 2009, the Department will form a task group 2006-07 5,349,874 1,612,251 to review the case for registering privately funded education 2007-08 5,315,618 1,708,260 providers. The task group will report back with its 2008-09 5,500,920 1,901,217 findings in September 2009. Iron and Steel: Redundancy Letter from Peter Mason, dated 25 June 2009: I am responding in respect of the National Measurement Dr. Kumar: To ask the Minister of State, Department Office (formerly National Weights and Measures Laboratory) to for Business, Innovation and Skills what training your Parliamentary Question tabled on 12 June 2009 [reference 280515] to the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation schemes will be provided for skilled steel workers who and Skills, asking how much (a) electricity and (b) gas was used (i) are made redundant to retain and develop their skills. on his Department’s predecessors’ estate and (ii) by his Department’s [282877] predecessors’ agencies in each year from 2004-05 to 2008-09. The expenditure by the National Weights and Measures Laboratory Kevin Brennan: The Government are committed to on electricity and gas as recorded in the Agency’s accounts over providing individuals and employers with the real help the relevant years was: they need during the current economic downturn. 369W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 370W

In each region Government agencies, including the Skills and the Department for Children, Skills and Regional Development Agencies and Learning and Skills Families are currently working with a range of partners Council, are working together with Jobcentre Plus to at regional and sub-regional level to discuss how they deliver its Rapid Response Service to help individuals will work with the Skills Funding Agency and Young affected by redundancy. The service provides help and People’s Learning Agency. advice on a range of issues, including job searches, training, and benefits, and can be delivered on employers’ Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, premises. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Newly redundant employees or those under notice of recent assessment he has made of progress in the redundancy can access a new £100 million package of transition from the Learning and Skills Council to the support that will help 70,000 people to get flexible pre- Skills Funding Agency and Young People Learning employment training designed to meet their individual Agency. [285422] needs and help them get back to work quickly. The support typically lasts two to eight weeks, and there is Kevin Brennan: We continue to make good progress no restriction on the type of provision. in planning for the changes, though any transition is subject to the passage of the “Apprenticeships, Skills, £58 million will also be available over two years to Children and Learning Bill”, currently progressing through increase information and advice services for people Parliament. looking to re-train and find work. In respect of local authorities, we now have proposals The Government have also created 75,000 additional for the operation of the 43 sub-regional groupings that work-focused training opportunities for people who will act as the main planning bodies for learning for have been unemployed for six months or more from any those aged 16-18 across the country. sector, to help them up-skill or re-skill and get back into work. This provision is tailored to the local job market, Significant progress has also been made in developing can be full-time supported by a training allowance, and the new structures for the Young People’s Learning will provide a significant uplift in skills. Agency and the Skills Funding Agency. The ambition is to establish shadow operations, without disrupting services Through the Train to Gain service we are also actively to young people, employers and adult learners, from engaging with employers in the steel industry to provide this September. them and their employees with the skills support that will help them through the downturn. We have appointed a chair of the new LSC Young People’s Learning Agency committee and appointed a Learning and Skills Council chief executive designate of the YoungPeople’s Learning Agency, though this is subject to the passage of the Mr. Laws: To ask the Minister of State, Department ASCL Bill. Recruitment for the post of chief executive for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will place in of Skills Funding is also under way. the Library a copy of the minutes of the meeting of the LSC staff have been briefed on the new staffing Learning and Skills Council on (a) 4 March and (b) structures (including numbers and roles) and locations 22 April 2009; and if he will make a statement. for the new agencies and for each local authority, and [276887] processes to match LSC staff to the posts in the new structures have been communicated and are under way. Kevin Brennan: The acting chief executive of the We continue to work with key partners and stakeholder Learning and Skills Council has recently undertaken a to ensure that our planning for the change is as review of its National Council minutes and has decided comprehensive as possible. During June and July we are that he will make public the full minutes from the undertaking a series of regional events for partners and National Council meetings, subject to the redaction of stakeholders affected by or involved in the changes to any confidential information that is exempt under the the pre and post 19 landscapes, to provide information terms of the Freedom of Information Act. Copies of on the changes and invite their views on how they the full minutes from June 2008 to April 2009 have now would like to work with the new systems locally. been published on their website, and can be found at: www.lsc.gov.uk Mr. Willis: To ask the Minister of State, Department Minutes of future meetings will be placed on the LSC’s for Business, Innovation and Skills how many posts he website within seven days of being approved by the expects to be transferred from the Learning and Skills Council. Council (LSC) to local authorities by 31 March 2010; and how many staff he expects to be transferred by (a) Mr. Willetts: To ask the Minister of State, 31 August 2009, (b) 31 December 2009 and (c) 31 Department for Business, Innovation and Skills March 2010 from the LSC to those posts in each LSC whether the paper on the regional and sub-regional region of England. [285581] presence of the Young People’s Learning Agency and the Skills Funding Agency, which the former Secretary Kevin Brennan [holding answer 9 July 2009]: The of State for Innovation, Universities and Skills LSC will continue to operate until 31 March 2010. On undertook to provide to the Learning and Skills that date, subject to the passage of the necessary legislation Council at its Council meeting on 22 April 2009, has in the Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning been completed. [282961] Bill, the LSC will be dissolved. On 1 April 2010 LSC staff will transfer to the new Kevin Brennan: This paper remains under development structures. We expect around 950 posts to transfer to and will be submitted to a future meeting of the LSC local authorities distributed across each of the local Council. The Department for Business, Innovation and authorities in each region. 371W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 372W

No staff will transfer before this point, though we are in the UK directly accounted for up to a fifth of the planning to operate the new system in a shadow mode productivity gap with our competitors. from September 2009 as a part of the transition process. In future we also hope to be able to match data from The LSC remains the legally accountable body for the the National Employer Skills Survey, and the Train to planning, commissioning and funding of all post-16 Gain Evaluation, to data from the Annual Business provision until it is dissolved. Inquiry. This should help us to try and assess the direct Learning and Skills Council: Finance impact of skills on firm level productivity. However, there is a lot of research that can inform Justine Greening: To ask the Minister of State, this question in a more indirect way—in particular Department for Business, Innovation and Skills research which analyses the impact of holding qualifications pursuant to the answer of 24 June 2009, Official on earnings, which is generally taken as a reasonable Report, columns 981-2W, on Learning and Skills proxy for the impact on productivity of those individuals. Council: finance, (1) when he expects to announce the Relevant reports published in the departmental research funding allocations to local authorities through the series3 since 2000 are listed as follows. Learning and Skills Council for the academic year In addition, the Department co-funds the Centre for 2009-10; [284053] the Economics of Education (CEE). This research centre (2) what funding allocations were made to the has also carried out a lot of research on the returns to London boroughs through the Learning and Skills the economy and individuals from education and training. Council in the academic years (a) 2007-08 and (b) Their publications can be found on their website at: 2008-09; [284054] http://cee.lse.ac.uk (3) what funding allocations were made to each In brief, the research shows that individuals with London borough for informal adult learning in the higher qualification levels are more likely to be employed academic years (a) 2007-08 and (b) 2008-09; and what than those with lower qualification levels. Equally, funding is planned for the academic year 2009-10. individuals with higher qualifications are less likely to [284055] be unemployed. Kevin Brennan: The Learning and Skills Council (LSC) Once in work, people with higher qualifications also has responsibility for the funding of post 16 education earn more on average than similar individuals with and training. Further education (FE) colleges and providers lower qualification levels. This is true for each successive (including local authorities) received confirmation of level of qualification, and applies to both academic and their adult learner responsive allocations on 7 April vocational qualifications, plus apprenticeships. In general, 2009, with maximum contract values for Train to Gain higher qualifications carry higher earnings returns and and adult apprenticeships confirmed on 19 June 2009. academic qualifications deliver higher returns than their This Department does not hold information on funding vocational counterparts. allocations made to London boroughs for specific years. Research also shows that the earnings returns to I have therefore asked the chief executive of the LSC, qualifications have remained relatively constant over Geoff Russell to write to the hon. Member with this recent years. This would seem to suggest that the supply information and a copy will be placed in the Libraries of skilled labour has been keeping pace with employer of the House. demand, and we are not saturating the market with skills and qualifications that are not in demand. Skilled Workers The Department will continue to monitor the returns to education, skills and qualifications, both through Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, commissioned research and through internal analysis of Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) data. It is vital that we gain as full an understanding as what recent research his Department and its possible of these returns. This will enable us to make predecessor have evaluated on the effects of skill levels sure that the qualifications we deliver in future provide in the workforce on levels of national prosperity; economically valuable skills for individuals, employers [284624] and the economy as a whole, and help us to achieve the (2) what recent research his Department has ambitions for a high-skilled workforce set out in the evaluated on the potential effects of the numbers of Leitch report on skills. people taking (a) further and higher education courses and (b) skills courses on levels of economic DIUS Research Brief CEE-08-02 “An Analysis of the Benefit of NVQ2 Qualifications Acquired at Age 26-34”, De Coulon productivity. [284629] and Vignoles (2008) Kevin Brennan: The Department is constantly monitoring Ref: DCSF-CEE-02-07 “Returns to Qualifications in England: Updating the Evidence Base on Level 2 and Level 3 Vocational research and analysis on the economic impact of education, Qualifications”, Jenkins et al (2007) skills and qualifications. This covers both work commissioned by the Department and by others. Ref: RB834—“Apprenticeships and Other Vocational Qualifications: A Cost-Benefit Analysis”, McIntosh (2007) Generally, there is not much research that directly estimates the impact on overall levels of national prosperity Ref: RR465—“Sectoral & Area Analysis of the Economic of the numbers going through HE and FE, or of the Effects of Qualifications and Basic Skills”, Machin et al (2003) numbers holding FE and HE-level qualifications. The Ref: RB370—“Further Analysis of the Returns to Academic Bank of England found that increasing skill levels accounted and Vocational Qualifications”, McIntosh et al (2002) for a fifth of GDP growth over the 30 years from Ref: 2001074—“Literature Review on Rates of Return to 1975-20021. Other research2 found that lower skill levels Higher Education”, London School of Economics (2002) 373W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 374W

Ref: 2002023—“Labour Market Returns to Graduates from should only be done at a time when we can get a good Less Advantaged Backgrounds in the Context of Expansion: return for the taxpayer. For the time being, the market A Review of the Literature”, London School of Economics conditions do not allow this. However, we will actively (2002) look to identify opportunities for a sale that represents Ref: 2002041—“The returns arising from learning undertaken value for money as market conditions improve. as adults”, Department for Education and Employment (2002) Ref: RB313—“Returns to Education: Evidence from the Labour Train to Gain Programme Force Survey”, Walker and Zhu (2001) Ref: RR254—“The Returns to Education: A Review of Evidence, Issues and Deficiencies in the Literature”, Harmon and Walker Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, (2001) Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Ref: RR192—“The Returns to Academic Vocational and Basic mechanisms his Department uses to assess the progress Skills in Britain”. Dearden et al (2000) of the Train to Gain programme towards its objectives; Ref: 28199—“Returns to Education—evidence using a sample and what his most recent assessment is of such of UK twins”, Institute of Education (2000) progress. [284628] 1 [1] Bell, Burriel-Llombart and Jones (2005) “A quality-adjusted labour input series for the United Kingdom (1975-2002)” Bank of Kevin Brennan: The progress of Train to Gain is England Working Paper 280. assessed both through evaluations commissioned by the 2 O’Mahoney and de Boer (2002) “Britain’s relative productivity Learning and Skills Council and through the use of performance: Updates to 1999” NIESR. Management Information on Train to Gain starts and 3 This covers the predecessor Departments: DIUS, DFES and outcomes, reported in the Statistical First Release, published DFEE. by the Data Service. The most recent, fourth wave of Train to Gain evaluation Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, comprised a survey of Train to Gain employers and a Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what survey with learners who accessed training via Train to his most recent assessment is of the UK’s optimal skills Gain. Reports on these employer and learner evaluations mix; and what steps his Department is taking to were published on 25 June 2009, alongside the most achieve that skills mix. [284677] recent Statistical First Release. The latest employer evaluation tells us that employers Kevin Brennan: “Ambition2020”, published by UKCES, are satisfied, and Train to Gain is having a real impact reiterates Government’s long held view that raising on business: skills levels improves the country’s future prosperity. “Working Futures”, also published by UKCES, made it more than nine in 10 of employers were satisfied with the quality of provision; clear that if we are to emerge from the recession stronger, more adaptable and more competitive, our skills strategy 80 per cent. of employers who had taken up training would recommend it to others; must enable the UK to take advantage of opportunities in the key industries, technologies and services that will around half of employers sampled reported a positive impact drive economic growth. on staff productivity; 66 per cent. reported improved long-term competitiveness. Government are investing £5 billion in adult skills this year to continue to up-skill the nation. Government Additionally, the latest Train to Gain learner evaluation have also put in place measures to ensure we are up-skilling shows that improving skills provides benefits to individuals people with the right skills. For example, sector skills in terms of improved employment prospects, labour agreements provide a framework for sector skills council’s market progression and social mobility: to work with employers, key delivery agencies and 83 per cent. of new learners said their training gave them skills Government to address priority skills in their sector. that would help them do a better job in the future. Government will now take a more proactive approach 34 per cent. of learners completing a Train to Gain course reported getting a promotion, and 34 per cent. of new learners to ensure it delivers the right skills, in the right place, at reported receiving a pay rise. the right time to ensure the UK can seize the opportunities of the new global economy. The new approach will The Statistical First Release shows that since April include forecasting demand; taking action to manage 2006, there have been a total just over 1.25 million Train supply to meet these demands; and thinking strategically to Gain starts with around 600,000 qualifications achieved. about how we best support areas of the economy where we anticipate opportunities for high employment or Train to Gain Programme: Tamworth high competitive advantage. We will publish a new Skills Strategy later this year, Mr. Jenkins: To ask the Minister of State, setting out how this will work in more detail. Department for Business, Innovation and Skills how many people resident in Tamworth constituency have Students: Loans successfully completed a Train to Gain course in the latest period for which figures are available. [285365] Stephen Williams: To ask the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what Kevin Brennan: In 2007/08 academic year, 470 courses progress has been made in selling parts of the student were achieved through Train to Gain by learners resident loan book following the enactment of the Sale of in Tamworth constituency, an increase from 170 in 2006/07. Student Loans Act 2008. [283171] This information was published in a statistical first Mr. Lammy: The Government still intend to make release on 25 June 2009: sales from the student loan book, but it is clear that this http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/sfriun09/ 375W Written Answers14 JULY 2009 Written Answers 376W

Tyne Metropolitan College tender for Train to Gain and Apprenticeship provision, and 47 responded to the Train to Gain invitation to Mr. Byers: To ask the Minister of State, Department tender and 14 to the Apprenticeships invitation to tender. for Business, Innovation and Skills if he will provide additional funding to Tyne Metropolitan College for Mr. Sanders: To ask the Minister of State, the purposes of (a) avoiding redundancies and (b) Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what maintaining numbers of available courses. [286296] methodology his Department uses to assess the demand for skills training in each region. [284620] Kevin Brennan [holding answer 13 July 2009]: The Learning and Skills Council (LSC) has responsibility Kevin Brennan: The Department utilises data and for the funding of post-16 further education (FE) and advice from the United Kingdom Commission for skills delivered through FE colleges and providers. In Employment and Skills (UKCES) and the National line with Government priorities, funding is prioritised Employer Skills Survey (NESS) to provide a national towards courses that provide adults with the skills to level picture of skills needs. The most recent wave of enter and progress into employment or further learning. NESS (2007) interviewed around 79,000 employers. The National Employer Skills Survey 2007 report includes a As independent organisations, FE colleges are responsible breakdown of the regional pattern of skills gaps (i.e. for managing their own budgets and setting the conditions where employers consider that employees are not fully of service of their staff. The Government therefore have proficient at their job), including a distribution of skills no involvement in contractual arrangements for college gaps by occupation in each region (p.85) and the skills staff. lacking by region (p.88). Each regional development Vocational Training agency also assesses the need to improve skills levels at regional level as part of the Regional Economic Strategy Mr. Evennett: To ask the Minister of State, (separate arrangements apply in London). Department for Business, Innovation and Skills what recent representations he has received from training Written Questions: Government Responses providers on the availability of (a) apprenticeships and (b) Train to Gain contracts in the 2009-10 academic Mr. Weir: To ask the Minister of State, Department year. [273202] for Business, Innovation and Skills when he plans to answer question (a) 265951 and (b) 265952, tabled on Kevin Brennan: As a part of its normal tendering 18 March 2009, on the Enterprise Finance Guarantee process, in January 2009 the Learning and Skills Council Scheme. [281348] undertook a tendering exercise for Employer Responsive provision in 2009-10. 2,059 organisations accessed the Ms Rosie Winterton: I refer the hon. Member to the pre-qualification questionnaire for this exercise, 1,553 answer I gave on 13 July 2009, Official Report, column responded to the questionnaire, 1,142 were invited to 186W.

3MC Ministerial Corrections14 JULY 2009 Ministerial Corrections 4MC Ministerial Correction The full statement made by me was as follows: “Under the Social Landlords Discretionary Reduction of Service Charges (England) Directions 1997, landlords Tuesday 14 July 2009 can also cap service charges if certain conditions are met, including if a leaseholder will suffer exceptional hardship. In 2002, we undertook a review of issues relating to major works service charges paid by local COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT authority leaseholders. That was done because of concerns raised over high service charges that were being levied Leaseholders’ Rights Bill on local authority leaseholders, principally arising out of work being carried out to bring homes up to an Ms Winterton:…Under the Social Landlords acceptable standard under the decent homes programme. Discretionary Reduction of Service Charges (England) We learned that many local authorities, particularly in Directions 1997, landlords can also cap service charges London, already offer a range of forms of assistance to if certain conditions are met, including if a leaseholder their leaseholders. They offer a range of payment by will suffer exceptional hardship. In 2002, we undertook instalment options; some agree to delay payment until a review of issues relating to major works service charges the property is sold; others even offer a discount if the paid by local authority leaseholders. That was done bill is paid in full promptly.” because of concerns raised over high service charges The correct statement should have been: that were being levied on local authority leaseholders, principally arising out of work being carried out to Ms Winterton:…Under the Social Landlords bring homes up to an acceptable standard under the Discretionary Reduction of Service Charges (England) decent homes programme. We learned that many local Directions 1997, landlords can also cap service charges authorities, particularly in London, already offer a range if certain conditions are met, including if a leaseholder of forms of assistance to their leaseholders. They offer will suffer exceptional hardship. In 2006, we undertook a range of payment by instalment options; some agree a review of issues relating to major works service charges to delay payment until the property is sold; others even paid by local authority leaseholders. That was done offer a discount if the bill is paid in full promptly. because of concerns raised over high service charges [Official Report, 26 June 2009, Vol. 494, c. 1093-1094.] that were being levied on local authority leaseholders, principally arising out of work being carried out to Letter of correction from Rosie Winterton: bring homes up to an acceptable standard under the An error has been identified in the second reading decent homes programme. We learned that many local debate on the Leaseholders Rights Bill introduced by authorities, particularly in London, already offer a range the hon. Member for Beckenham (Mrs. Lait) on 26 June of forms of assistance to their leaseholders. They offer 2009. The error consists of reference to an incorrect a range of payment by instalment options; some agree date (2002) for a particular review that was carried out. to delay payment until the property is sold; others even The correct date should be 2006. offer a discount if the bill is paid in full promptly.

ORAL ANSWERS

Tuesday 14 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY ...... 137 TREASURY—continued Alcohol Duties (Employment) ...... 144 Kaupthing Singer and Friedlander Isle of Man ..... 143 Bank Lending (Small and Medium Businesses) ..... 138 Net Contribution to the EU...... 150 Bingo (Taxation)...... 141 Personal Debt ...... 151 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 145 Public Sector Pay ...... 137 Comprehensive Spending Review...... 149 River Forth Crossing (UK Government Counter-recessionary Policies...... 149 Assistance)...... 146 Equitable Life ...... 147 Topical Questions ...... 151 IR35...... 142 WRITTEN MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS

Tuesday 14 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 7WS INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 12WS Intellectual Property Office (Performance Humanitarian Situation (Sri Lanka) ...... 12WS Targets)...... 7WS JUSTICE...... 13WS COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 8WS Crown Court Means-testing (Consultation)...... 13WS Planning...... 8WS TRANSPORT ...... 13WS DEFENCE...... 10WS First Great Western Franchise ...... 14WS NATO Planning Questionnaire (Group Quality Contracts Schemes ...... 13WS Response) ...... 10WS

ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL TREASURY ...... 7WS AFFAIRS...... 11WS 2009-10 Tax and Benefit Reference Manual ...... 7WS Animal Health Annual Report...... 11WS WALES...... 14WS HOME DEPARTMENT...... 11WS National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Newspapers (Surveillance Methods/Update)...... 11WS Competence Order)...... 14WS PETITIONS

Tuesday 14 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .1PPRESENTED PETITION Greenbelt Development (Essex)...... 1P Taxis (Liverpool)...... 1P Planning and Development (Somerset) ...... 3P WRITTEN ANSWERS

Tuesday 14 July 2009

Col. No. Col. No. BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS ...... 364W BUSINESS, INNOVATION AND SKILLS—continued Apprentices...... 364W Tyne Metropolitan College ...... 375W Apprentices: Finance ...... 365W Vocational Training...... 375W Companies Act 2006 ...... 365W Written Questions: Government Responses ...... 376W Consumer Protection Act 1987 ...... 366W Consumers: Protection...... 366W CABINET OFFICE...... 336W Departmental Energy...... 366W Civil Service: Manpower ...... 336W Education: Standards...... 368W Death: Alcohol...... 336W Iron and Steel: Redundancy...... 368W Death: Bacterial Diseases...... 337W Learning and Skills Council...... 369W Death: Methanol...... 337W Learning and Skills Council: Finance ...... 371W Departmental Data Protection...... 338W Skilled Workers...... 371W Employment ...... 338W Students: Loans ...... 373W Freedom of Information ...... 340W Train to Gain Programme ...... 374W Lord Ashcroft ...... 340W Train to Gain Programme: Tamworth...... 374W National Income ...... 341W Col. No. Col. No. CABINET OFFICE—continued DEFENCE—continued Pay: York ...... 341W Armed Forces Day: Finance ...... 265W Regional Development Agencies...... 342W Armed Forces: Death...... 267W Armed Forces: Ethnic Groups ...... 267W CHILDREN, SCHOOLS AND FAMILIES...... 292W Armed Forces: Females...... 268W Apprenticeships, Skills, Children and Learning Armed Forces: Males ...... 268W Bill ...... 292W Armed Forces: Minorities ...... 268W Children: Day Care ...... 292W Armed Forces: Social Clubs...... 269W Children: Protection...... 293W Armoured Fighting Vehicles ...... 269W Children’s Play: Finance...... 293W BVT Shipyards...... 269W Class Sizes: York...... 294W Departmental Data Protection...... 270W Connexions ...... 294W Departmental Databases...... 270W Departmental Internet ...... 294W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 270W Pupils...... 294W Departmental Manpower...... 270W Pupils: Radiation Exposure...... 295W Departmental Training ...... 271W Pupils: Travel ...... 295W Gurkhas: Pensions ...... 271W Schools: Bullying ...... 296W Met Office...... 271W Schools: Capital Investment...... 296W Military Aircraft ...... 272W Schools: Crimes of Violence ...... 297W RAF Chilmark: Finance ...... 273W Schools: Finance...... 298W Raiding Craft: Navy...... 273W Schools: Manpower ...... 298W Reserve Forces ...... 274W Science: Education ...... 298W Service Personnel and Veterans Agency: Prisoners. 274W Secondary Education: Gifted Children ...... 299W UK Health Departments Partnership Board: Secondary Education: School Choice ...... 300W Meetings ...... 275W Social Workers: Essex...... 305W Sure Start Programme: York ...... 307W ENERGY AND CLIMATE CHANGE ...... 236W Teachers and Teaching Assistants: North East...... 308W Departmental Press: Subscriptions ...... 236W Teachers: Degrees ...... 307W Environment Protection: Education...... 237W Teachers: Pay ...... 307W Fuel Poverty...... 237W Teachers: South East...... 309W Warm Front Scheme: Pensioners ...... 238W Teachers: Yorkshire and The Humber...... 309W ENVIRONMENT, FOOD AND RURAL COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT.. 310W AFFAIRS...... 213W 62 Eaton Place ...... 310W Agricultural Shows ...... 213W Aerials: Planning Permission ...... 310W Agriculture: Regulation...... 213W Airports: Planning Permission ...... 310W Agriculture: Subsidies ...... 214W Allotments ...... 311W Animal Health Agency: Consultants...... 214W Coastal Areas: Economic Situation...... 311W Birds: Imports...... 214W Councillors ...... 312W Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act Eco-Towns: Public Consultation ...... 312W 2005 ...... 219W Home Information Packs...... 312W Compost ...... 220W Housing: Armed Forces ...... 312W Departmental Procurement...... 220W Housing: Low Incomes ...... 313W Domestic Waste: Waste Disposal ...... 220W Industrial Estates: Planning Permission ...... 314W EC Grants and Loans ...... 221W Local Government: Apprentices ...... 314W Eggs: Labelling ...... 224W Local Government: Pensions ...... 315W Environment Agency: Pay...... 225W Mortgages: Government Assistance...... 315W Environment Protection: Prosecutions ...... 225W Non-Domestic Rates...... 315W Fluoride: Drinking Water ...... 227W Non-Domestic Rates: Ports...... 315W Food: Labelling...... 227W Ordnance Survey...... 316W Food: Prices ...... 228W Planning and Energy Act 2008...... 316W Futuresource Conference ...... 229W Planning Permission ...... 316W Landfill ...... 229W Planning Permission: Fees and Charges ...... 316W Marine and Coastal Access Bill ...... 229W Regional Planning and Development...... 317W Marine and Fisheries Agency: Finance ...... 230W Repossession Orders: Hampshire ...... 317W Marine Management Organisation ...... 230W Social Rented Housing: Hemel Hempstead...... 317W Pollution: Fines...... 231W Temporary Accommodation ...... 318W Rats: Greater London ...... 232W Reptiles: Imports...... 232W CULTURE, MEDIA AND SPORT ...... 244W Rural Areas: Employment...... 233W Cultural Heritage: Wiltshire...... 244W School Fruit and Vegetable Scheme ...... 233W Departmental Databases...... 245W Soil...... 233W Digital Broadcasting ...... 246W Sustainable Development...... 234W Hampton Court ...... 247W Waste Disposal: Fees and Charges ...... 234W Religious Buildings: Conservation ...... 247W Water Charges...... 235W Sports ...... 248W Tourism...... 249W FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE..... 318W Afghanistan: Prisoners...... 318W DEFENCE...... 263W Australia: Diplomatic Service...... 319W 3 Squadron ...... 263W BBC External Services ...... 319W Afghanistan: Peacekeeping Operations ...... 263W BBC External Services: Meetings...... 319W Armed Forces ...... 265W Colombia ...... 320W Col. No. Col. No. FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE— JUSTICE—continued continued Courts...... 250W Departmental Consultants...... 320W Courts: Fines ...... 251W Departmental Contracts ...... 320W Departmental Contracts ...... 251W Departmental Databases...... 329W Departmental Finance ...... 251W Departmental Manpower...... 329W Departmental Procurement...... 252W Departmental Pay ...... 329W Fraud: Essex ...... 252W Departmental Policy ...... 330W Further Offence Inquiries...... 253W Departmental Procurement...... 330W Legal Aid: Finance...... 254W Embassies: EU Countries...... 331W Legal Aid: North West...... 255W Freedom of Information: Trident...... 333W Legal Aid Scheme: Finance...... 254W Iran: Internet ...... 333W Legal Services Commission: Research...... 255W Locate System...... 333W Non-molestation Orders ...... 255W Royal Visits ...... 334W Prisoners ...... 257W Spirit of Humanity ...... 335W Probation: Hemel Hempstead ...... 258W Sri Lanka: Election Observers...... 335W Probation Officers...... 259W Sri Lanka: Internally Displaced Persons ...... 335W Roads: Accidents ...... 259W Western Sahara: Natural Resources ...... 335W Service Personnel and Veterans Agency’s Prison In-Reach ...... 260W HEALTH...... 342W Sexual Offences: Compensation ...... 260W Accident and Emergency Departments ...... 342W Young Offender Institutions...... 261W Accident and Emergency Departments: Young Offenders: Sports ...... 261W Hampshire ...... 342W Accident and Emergency Departments: LEADER OF THE HOUSE ...... 203W Staffordshire ...... 343W Divisions...... 203W Cancer: Brain...... 344W East of England Regional Grand Committee ...... 203W Dental Services ...... 345W Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority... 203W Dental Services: Waiting Lists...... 345W Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority: Departmental Public Expenditure...... 349W Finance...... 204W General Practitioners: Working Hours...... 349W Legislation: Parliamentary Scrutiny ...... 204W Hospital Beds...... 349W Legislation: Public Consultation ...... 204W Hospitals: Admissions ...... 349W Legislatures: EC Countries ...... 204W Hospitals: Waiting Lists...... 350W Members: Visits Abroad ...... 205W Injuries: Dogs...... 350W Kidneys...... 350W OLYMPICS ...... 238W Mental Health Services: Kent ...... 351W Olympic Games 2012: Employment ...... 238W NHS: Debt...... 351W Olympic Games 2012: Gun Sports ...... 239W NHS: Drugs...... 352W NHS: Private Sector...... 352W PRIME MINISTER ...... 238W Pharmacy...... 352W Members: Surveillance...... 238W Pregnant Women...... 353W Prescription: Fees and Charges ...... 353W SCOTLAND...... 203W Primary Care Trusts: Working Hours ...... 353W Departmental Buildings...... 203W Swine Flu...... 353W York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust: TRANSPORT ...... 205W Expenditure ...... 354W Bus Services: Concessions ...... 205W York Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust: Waiting Crossrail Line...... 206W Times ...... 354W Crossrail Line: Finance ...... 206W York Hospitals NHS Trust: Manpower...... 355W Driver Information Systems...... 206W HOME DEPARTMENT...... 239W Driving: Licensing...... 206W Antisocial Behaviour...... 239W East Coast Railway Line: Franchises ...... 207W Antisocial Behaviour Orders: Young People ...... 240W Hazardous Waste...... 208W Crime: Detection Rates...... 240W Local Government Finance ...... 208W Crime: Yorkshire...... 240W Motorcycles: Licensing ...... 209W Domestic Violence ...... 241W Motorways: Repairs and Maintenance...... 210W Forensic Science Service: Essex ...... 241W Railways...... 210W Human Trafficking ...... 242W Railways: Fares ...... 211W Identity Cards: Greater Manchester...... 243W Railways: Finance ...... 211W Migrant Workers...... 244W Railways: Floods...... 211W Police: Disciplinary Proceedings ...... 244W Railways: Franchises ...... 211W Police: Protective Clothing ...... 244W Road Traffic Act 1988 ...... 212W Severn Bridge: Tolls ...... 212W HOUSE OF COMMONS COMMISSION...... 205W Transport: Finance...... 212W Parliament: Security...... 205W Transport: York ...... 212W Tony Blair: Allowances ...... 205W TREASURY ...... 357W INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT...... 250W Banks: Regulation...... 359W Departmental Internet ...... 250W Banks: Remuneration of Senior Employees ...... 359W Comprehensive Spending Review...... 357W JUSTICE...... 250W Departmental Databases...... 358W Court Orders...... 250W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 359W Col. No. Col. No. TREASURY—continued WORK AND PENSIONS—continued Departmental Expenditure Limits ...... 358W Carer’s Allowance: Essex...... 279W Economic Growth...... 360W Children: Maintenance ...... 280W Equitable Life Assurance Society...... 360W Council Tax Benefits...... 283W Financial Action Task Force...... 360W Departmental Contracts ...... 283W Financial Ombudsman Service: Complaints ...... 361W Departmental Energy...... 283W Interest Rates ...... 361W Departmental Procurement...... 284W Personal Income ...... 361W Disability Living Allowance...... 284W Public Expenditure...... 362W Future Jobs Fund...... 284W Public Services: Finance...... 362W Hazardous Substances: Storage ...... 284W Quantitative Easing...... 357W Medical Assessors...... 285W Revenue and Customs...... 362W New Deal Schemes...... 286W Taxation: Bingo ...... 363W Pathways to Work ...... 286W Taxation: Gaming Machines...... 363W Pension Credit...... 286W Taxation: Repayments...... 364W Pensions...... 286W VAT: Garages...... 364W Personal Accounts Scheme: Finance...... 287W Pollution: Fines...... 291W WALES...... 235W Remploy...... 288W Departmental Buildings...... 235W Right to Bid Scheme ...... 288W Departmental Data Protection...... 235W Social Security Benefits...... 288W Departmental Electronic Equipment ...... 236W Social Security Benefits: Fraud ...... 289W Departmental Internet ...... 236W Social Security Benefits: Overseas Residence ...... 290W WORK AND PENSIONS ...... 279W Social Security Benefits: Research...... 290W Atos ...... 279W Winter Fuel Payments...... 291W MINISTERIAL CORRECTION

Tuesday 14 July 2009

Col. No. COMMUNITIES AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT .3MC Leaseholders’ Rights Bill ...... 3MC Members who wish to have the Daily Report of the Debates forwarded to them should give notice at the Vote Office. The Bound Volumes will also be sent to Members who similarly express their desire to have them. No proofs of the Daily Reports can be supplied, nor can corrections be made in the Weekly Edition. Corrections which Members suggest for the Bound Volume should be clearly marked in the Daily Report, but not telephoned, and the copy containing the Corrections must be received at the Editor’s Room, House of Commons,

not later than Tuesday 21 July 2009

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CONTENTS

Tuesday 14 July 2009

Oral Answers to Questions [Col. 137] [see index inside back page] Chancellor of the Exchequer

Care and Support (Reform) [Col. 157] Statement—(Andy Burnham)

Government of Cornwall [Col. 174] Bill presented, and read the First time

Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme (Review) [Col. 175] Motion for leave to introduce Bill—(Mr. Frank Field)—agreed to Bill presented, and read the First time

Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Bill [Lords] [Col. 177] As amended, further considered; read the Third time and passed

East Midlands Regional Grand Committee [Col. 262] Motion—(Mrs. Hodgson); Division deferred till Wednesday 15 July

Petition [Col. 263]

Bournemouth and Poole FE College [Col. 264] Debate on motion for Adjournment

Westminster Hall Health Care (Shropshire) [Col. 1WH] East Coast Main Line [Col. 23WH] HM Prison Wellingborough [Col. 48WH] Adults with Learning Difficulties [Col. 56WH] Gypsies and Travellers [Col. 64WH] Debates on motion for Adjournment

Written Ministerial Statements [Col. 7WS]

Petitions [Col. 1P] Observations

Written Answers to Questions [Col. 203W] [see index inside back page]

Ministerial Correction [Col. 3MC]