So, You Said Your Father's Name Was Ramon Taisague. FEMALE

Greg Cabrera Oral History Interview

BRUCE PETTY: So, you said your father’s name was Ramon

Taisague.

FEMALE: Taisague.

GREG CABRERA: Taisague.

BP: Taisague Cabrera.

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay. When was he born and where?

GC: So, I don’t know that.

FEMALE: I don’t know. I guess he’s born in --

(break in audio)

BP: Was he born in Saipan or Guam?

GC: I don’t know exactly what, maybe, maybe in Guam.

BP: Okay. We can look that up later.

FEMALE: We can find out.

BP: What sort of work did he do here in Saipan?

GC: He’s not working in Saipan; he’s working in Angaur, Palau.

BP: Angaur.

GC: Yes, Palau. Angaur, Palau.

BP: Okay, the same place as your father.

FEMALE: Yes.

BP: Okay. When did he first go to Angaur, do you know?

GC: Well, from Japanese times to German times?

BP: German town. Did he work in the mines there?

GC: Working in phosphate.

BP: The phosphate mine.

GC: Yes.

BP: Do you remember what year he came back to Saipan?

GC: Me, I understand, he come back in 1932.

BP: He came back --

GC: He had me.

BP: Oh, you were born in Angaur?

GC: Then my father still continued working there.

BP: Okay, so your father went to work in the phosphate mines in

Angaur during German times.

GC: Yes.

BP: And you were born in Angaur?

GC: Yes.

BP: And you had other brothers and sisters who were born there?

GC: Yes.

BP: How many?

GC: Antonio. Six. I’d say --

FEMALE: Antonio, and Juan, one younger brother, so three,

three brothers.

BP: Three? Three brothers?

FEMALE: There was three, yes.

BP: Okay, so you had three other brothers besides yourself.

FEAMALE: Yes.

GC: Yes.

BP: And then you had three sisters.

GC: Three sisters.

BP: All born in Angaur.

GC: Yes.

BP: Then you had another brother who was born --

GC: One sister.

BP: Who was born in Saipan.

GC: One sister born in Saipan.

BP: Now, you said you had a sister who died in Angaur, or she

died in Saipan?

GC: Angaur.

BP: From disease or what?

GC: I think this, they don’t inform me.

BP: Okay, so then your mother returned here in 1932.

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay, but your father stayed in Angaur.

GC: Stayed in Angaur and continued the job.

BP: Then he came back here in --

GC: After the -- in 1944, ’45.

BP: Nineteen forty-five.

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: Yes, after the World War II.

BP: Okay. When did he die?

GC: He died in Saipan.

FEMALE: I don’t know.

BP: Okay. Now, your mother’s name was Concepcion Campos

Camacho.

GC: Camacho.

BP: And do you remember when she was born or where?

FEMALE: I’ve got everything.

BP: Okay, we’ll look that up later. Okay, so then she had four

boys and three girls then.

FEMALE: Three boys.

BP: Okay, so she had three boys and four girls.

FEMALE: Four girls.

BP: Were you the oldest or the youngest?

FEMALE: No, the one from the -- I mentioned his older brother

is Antonio, the one who lives in Guam.

BP: In Guam, okay. Okay, well what are your earliest memories?

Do you actually remember living in Angaur?

GC: Angaur.

BP: Do you remember that?

GC: Yes.

BP: What do you remember about living in Angaur?

GC: I remember my father’s working place, the dryer, brick, we

call brick dryer.

BP: He worked in a brick dryer, a brick-kiln?

GC: The brick. The brick-kiln, they got long pipe, just dry,

this brick go, go down to the ship, they ship, anchor

there. So this one is that dry, things are going to that.

BP: Oh, the phosphate.

GC: The phosphate in the ship.

BP: So he operated the -- was it a pipe or a conveyor belt?

GC: So then my father is the engineer there, so he operated the

machine, working that dryer.

BP: Oh okay, okay. So what else do you remember about living

in Angaur? Did you have school there?

GC: Not school there. I’m seven years old, I come back to

Saipan. I remember some of my friends take me to the

mountain; I catch a chicken, a wild chicken. I remember

monkeys.

BP: Monkeys?

GC: Yes.

BP: In Angaur.

GC: Angaur. I saw how to catch the monkey in Angaur. So one

time, the Japanese come to buy monkey in Angaur, so I going

to get that, to see how to catch the monkey.

BP: Now, what did the Japanese buy the monkeys for, do you

know?

GC: I don’t know, there is some Japanese come to buy the monkey

and they take them with them.

BP: They take them away, okay. Did they have a catholic church

in Angaur?

GC: Yes.

BP: And they had a priest there too?

GC: Yes.

BP: Do you remember the priest’s name?

GC: I don’t know.

BP: Do you remember anybody’s name from those days in Angaur?

GC: Yes, the Sablan family, from Saipan, I know the names.

BP: Are they still alive today here?

GC: Maybe one, two, three.

FEMALE: The one that is still alive is Ben.

BP: Ben Sablan?

FEMALE: Yeah.

BP: How old is he?

GC: More than I think 70, 80.

BP: About 80. Does he speak English?

FEMALE: Yes.

BP: Ben Sablan.

GC: I think so, just like me.

BP: Well, that’s good enough. What else do you remember about

living on Angaur, much of anything else?

GC: The Angaur soil is very good. I never see a small papaya

there. If you go to the mountain, you can find big

papayas.

BP: Big papayas.

GC: Nothing small papaya in Angaur.

BP: Not like in Saipan.

GC: Not Saipan. You go to the mountain; you can see different

papayas, lacking that one.

BP: In Angaur they’re big.

GC: Because the soil is very good.

BP: Was there a lot of farming going on in Angaur?

GC: No.

BP: No farming, just the phosphate. And so you came back in

1932.

GC: Yes.

BP: What do you remember about the voyage coming back? Was it

a long voyage? Did you stop at other islands?

GC: Yeah, the ship come to Angaur, so I arrive from the ship,

going to Palau and stop, and then get more passengers from

Palau, coming direct to Saipan.

BP: Do you remember the name of the ship?

GC: I don’t know.

BP: So your mother and all of your brothers and sisters were

with you.

GC: Yes, everybody come.

BP: Did you get seasick, or what do you remember about the

voyage?

GC: No, I didn’t, I’m not sick.

BP: Okay. Was that a big adventure for you then maybe?

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay. What do you remember about when you first arrived in

Saipan? What do you remember?

GC: So, I arrived in Saipan, the first thing, my mother take me

to the school, Chamorro School.

BP: Chamorro School.

GC: To register, but the registration is already closed that

day. So, the Japanese teachers say you wait until the next

registration.

BP: Nineteen thirty-three?

GC: Nineteen thirty-three. So we register for first grade in

1933.

BP: So where was your home when you arrived back in Saipan,

where did you live?

GC: I stayed in Garapan, live at Four Street. So I stayed in

(inaudible).

BP: What’s that near today?

GC: I stayed in Third Street, my father’s brother’s house.

BP: Okay, so you stayed in your uncle’s house.

GC: It was in that house to stay.

BP: Okay. If you were to locate your house today, what would

it be near? Would it be near the Hyatt? Would it be near

Happy Market? What was it close to?

GC: No, now it’s near to the, I think Martha’s Store.

BP: Martha’s Store. I’m not sure where that is.

GC: Close to Martha’s Store.

FEMALE: Next to the Holiday Inn.

BP: Oh, Saipan Holiday Inn, in Saipan.

FEMALE: Saipan Holiday Inn. There’s a 24-hour, the market

store.

BP: So you lived with your uncle, aunt and uncle?

GC: My uncle’s house.

BP: Was he there too, with his family?

GC: My family and his family.

BP: All together.

GC: Together.

BP: So you stayed with your father’s brother and his wife was

your mother’s sister, so it’s a big, big family.

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay. Was anybody in your family married to a Japanese?

GC: No.

(break in audio)

BP: Was anybody in your family married to a Korean?

GC: No.

BP: Did you know any Koreans on Saipan in those days?

GC: Yes, they have Korean, very few at that time.

BP: Very few.

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay, what did they do mostly, were they farmers?

GC: No. The Koreans, they give jobs like [steamroller?]

company.

BP: Oh, for a [steamroller?] company?

GC: And working in the ship, loading, unloading.

BP: Did your family own property on Saipan?

GC: Yes.

BP: Where was the property?

GC: The property, they have in Garapan, they have in Gualo Rai.

BP: In Gualo Rai.

GC: Yes.

BP: Is there a farm there?

GC: The old line is they are renting from the Japanese,

Okinawa; they are using the land, planting like sugarcane.

BP: Okay. Did you or anybody in your family ever have any

problems with the Japanese, before the war?

GC: That time is nothing, no problem.

BP: No problems, okay. Now, did you lose your home in Garapan

in 1943 or 1944, when they started bringing in Japanese

soldiers?

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: Now, everybody.

GC: Everybody, this first to move in Garapan, the Japanese

government order, everybody moving from Garapan to a farm.

BP: So you moved to Gualo Rai?

GC: Gualo Rai.

BP: Okay. Now you had a brother who was working for the

police, the Japanese police?

GC: Yes.

BP: That was Antonio?

FEMALE: Antonio.

BP: Okay, and he was sent to Guam after the Americans invaded

there.

FEMALE: Guam, yes.

BP: I’m sorry. I won’t bring that up. That’s his older

brother?

FEMALE: Yes.

BP: Okay. Did anybody in your family live on any other islands

besides Saipan? Did they live in Pagan or Anatahan?

GC: No. Everybody in Saipan.

BP: Everybody was in Saipan, okay. Okay, so you went to

Japanese school for how many years?

GC: Five years and after, after five finished grades, I joined

one year for the [Kinro Hoko Patai?].

BP: What is that?

GC: Like soldier training.

BP: Soldier training, okay.

GC: Yes.

BP: Do you remember the names of any of your Japanese teachers?

GC: Yes.

BP: Could you tell me their names?

GC: The name is Mr. Koyamada.

BP: Now do you remember the names of any -- Mr. Koyamada was

the principal. Do you remember the names of Japanese

teachers?

GC: Yes, I know lots of Japanese.

FEMALE: (inaudible).

BP: What was the name of that teacher?

GC: Some time when the Japanese not there, the Francisco Diaz,

changed for that.

FEMALE: Nicolas Diaz.

GC: Nicolas Diaz.

BP: He would be a teacher?

GC: In first grade. Sometimes, the teacher is not there, so

Nicolas Diaz came to --

BP: Francisco.

FEMALE: So Francisco, Nicolas.

BP: Nicolas Diaz.

GC: Nicolas Diaz.

FEMALE: He was the substitute teacher for whoever going out.

BP: Okay. But what was the name of your Japanese teacher?

GC: Koyamada.

BP: Oh, so the principal was the teacher too sometimes.

GC: Yes.

BP: And he was the only one you had.

FEMALE: And his time, all the time, and he just go, and then

he started.

BP: Oh, okay.

FEMALE: So, then he start.

BP: So, Nicolas Diaz.

GC: Nicolas Diaz.

BP: Is that N-I-C-O-L-A-S?

FEMALE: Yes.

BP: Diaz.

GC: Diaz.

BP: Was he related to Francisco Diaz?

FEMALE: His brother.

BP: His brother.

FEMALE: Francisco, what was Francisco?

BP: Francisco went to Japan, I think.

FEMALE: The one with the Japanese wife?

BP: Yeah, he has a Japanese wife.

GC: Oh yeah, that’s brother.

FEMALE: That was the brother. There’s another Francisco Diaz

someplace, I don’t know.

BP: Okay, now I asked your -- now your wife told me about the

Repeki family, there was a young girl by the name of

Soledad Repeki. Do you remember any Repeki family members?

GC: I know Soledad, never. I don’t know. The name I know,

Soledad Repeki.

BP: Did you know any other Repekis on the island? There are

some Repekis.

FEMALE: I think so, but I don’t know. When I was at first

grade.

BP: Okay. When did you first learn that there was a war

between Japan and the United States?

GC: After we graduate in fifth grade, sixth grade, you know?

And joining the one construction, because Sagami-gumi. I

work in there to build Japanese, it was the naval

headquarters.

BP: Military headquarters?

GC: Military.

BP: And where was that located?

GC: Navy military headquarters, I don’t know, I build that.

Now it’s a garment factory.

FEMALE: Gualo Rai, no?

GC: Gualo Rai.

BP: It’s in Gualo Rai. So there was a military headquarters

there?

GC: Up there, that area.

BP: Is it still there?

GC: No more.

BP: It was destroyed? And that was the naval headquarters?

GC: Yes, the navy headquarters.

BP: Okay. Well, after you graduated from school, did you do

any other kind of work?

GC: Yes.

BP: Did you work on --

GC: After I finished that headquarters, I am working in

manufacture, starch factory.

BP: Starch factory, and where was that?

GC: Before the ’41. So, 1941, December 8th or December 7th, my

brother working in a soap factory. So my brother, they

don’t know the -- the government chose my brother for

interpreting.

BP: To be interpreter.

GC: Because already intention to landing in Guam, the Japanese.

BP: So this is Antonio?

GC: Before the war.

BP: Before the war.

FEMALE: This is another brother.

BP: Oh, Jose.

GC: Jose, my brother, working in the soap factory.

BP: Right.

GC: So the government chose my brother, ten people, Saipan, to

send to Guam, on December 7th, for interpreter.

BP: To be interpreters.

GC: Yes.

BP: Did he go over with Antonio or did he go separate?

GC: No, no, no, Antonio is still in Saipan. So my brother,

first he mentioned going to be sent to Guam on December

7th, they are going to the fishing boat the 7th, and

overnight to Guam. So, December 8th, early morning, maybe

before the sun set, they took out two boats, on the ship, a

fishing boat, and so five people here, five people here,

and going to the beach. So, one boat is maybe going to the

rip and the boat is turned over on the way, and my brother

no turned, but going to the beach, the sand.

BP: So, Jose was on the boat that went to the beach.

GC: Yes, he’s there and not the turnover. So these five people

started swimming. One of many people standing on the beach

and they said the fishing, that, they needed to know. So

this guy saw these people swimming in. So this guy, going

to police station and report some maybe stranger from the

outside.

BP: Coming in.

GC: Coming in. So this is before eight o’clock.

BP: Before eight o’clock in the morning.

GC: Yes. So these five people, they catch and bring to the

headquarters and investigate. Why you people come to Guam?

Their answer is the Japanese sent us to Guam for

interpreting Japanese and Chamorro, because many of them

cannot speak Japanese. So, that investigation say what

time the Japanese come to Guam? Maybe exactly eight

o’clock, the Japanese [bombing?] come to Guam. So these

five people, the investigation say if the Japanese come to

Guam in eight o’clock in the morning, you people are going

to be there, getting these five. So, exactly eight

o’clock, the Japanese [bombing?] comes and drove them out,

in Guam. So these people swam away, so the investigation

people, everybody ran away.

BP: They ran away.

GC: So.

BP: They were safe.

GC: Yes. So from that time, the Japanese invasion come from

the ship, to landing on Guam.

BP: Now, where was your brother all of this time?

GC: My brother is going to another side beach, so they don’t

catch. Going in mountain until --

BP: Until the Japanese come.

GC: The Japanese, looking for Japanese, working together.

BP: So did Jose stay there during the whole war?

GC: He has passed away already but he, he stayed on Guam.

BP: He stayed in Guam after the war?

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: Yeah.

GC: After the war.

FEMALE: Until he was --

GC: Northern Japanese in 1941, still in Guam.

BP: Yeah. So he was there until when, when did he come?

GC: Until 1944, the --

BP: The Americans come.

FEMALE: The family, everything come, they put everybody in the

stockade.

GC: Nineteen forty-four, they took them to a stockade.

FEMALE: Then after that, they took everybody, all the San

Francisco, everyone from Saipan, and people were brought

into a site next to Guam, at the same time.

BP: Okay, so do you remember when Jose was released from the

stockade?

FEMALE: After that, the wife -- because he’s married in Guam,

one of the Chamorro from Saipan, he saw Jose.

BP: So Jose came back here. He was in prison until 1951, is

that correct?

GC: No. Before that, he’s coming, maybe 1949.

BP: Maybe ’49.

GC: Because I stayed in 1948, in Rota, already I’m policeman,

so I stayed there.

BP: You’re in Rota now.

GC: In Rota, in 1948. So, I saw some from Rota prison, same

with my brother, come to Rota in 1948, I saw these. So I

come to Saipan and then my brother come to Rota in 1949.

(break in audio)

BP: Okay, so getting back. You were on a construction

battalion called Sagami-gumi.

GC: Sagami-gumi, that’s the name of the construction, Sagami-

gumi.

BP: Okay, and you helped build the naval headquarters in Gualo

Rai.

GC: Naval headquarters in Gualo Rai.

BP: Then you worked for tapioca?

GC: After then, I going to working in a factory, tapioca

factory, starch factory.

BP: Do you remember who owned that?

GC: What?

BP: The tapioca factory.

GC: That belonged to the Japanese.

BP: Okay. Now, how long did you work with tapioca factory?

GC: Well, a very short time, maybe, maybe eight months.

BP: Then what happened?

GC: Then before ’41, my brother is sent to Guam.

BP: Right.

GC: So at that time, I quit in tapioca, I working in --

FEMALE: He took his brother’s place.

GC: In the soap factory.

BP: Working in the soap factory.

GC: I changed my brother.

BP: That was 1941 and how long did you work in the soap

factory?

GC: Two, two and a half years, before ’44.

BP: So until about late 1943 or early 1944?

GC: Nineteen forty-four, I’m working already in the soap

factory, so maybe 18 months I am working in the soap

factory.

BP: Okay, so you left the soap factory. When did you leave the

soap factory?

GC: Until the World War II.

BP: Oh, when the bombs started falling?

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay. So you did not have to work on Aslito Field?

GC: No.

BP: Okay. Did you see the American planes come over and bomb?

FEMALE: He was sent to --

(break in audio)

GC: That morning, everybody called in to go to the government,

Japanese headquarters office, lots of people. So, I like

to going, because all my friends are going, but I don’t

tell my boss in the soap factory. So, I went to the

Japanese headquarters.

FEMALE: He would like to join.

GC: I would like to join that too, you know, because all my

family is going.

BP: To work in --

GC: Nothing in Garapan already.

BP: Okay, now this was before the American planes came?

GC: Before.

BP: Okay, but your boss from the soap factory came and pulled

you out?

GC: So, already, I stand by the truck, they’re calling one by

one, [Manero?], Cabrera, in the truck. So they called me

already, my name, so I go into the truck. So, the road it

goes like this, very high, but you come from the bicycle,

you have to get up on the bicycle, because you cannot

continue. So I saw [Don?], this is my boss, coming,

already get up from the bicycle and took the bicycle. So,

already I stayed in the truck. Okay, now my boss is going

to the listing in charge.

FEMALE: The recruiter.

GC: He has come to talk to this guy. This guy very good, speak

Japanese. So I got a little bit misunderstanding from my

name. The list is Gregorio Cabrera. My boss, they don’t

know this my name, only “Gorro” Cabrera. So that guy, he

is no, only me as Gorro, not Gregorio, Gorro, they called

me that. So I think to that guy. Okay, maybe I tell you

Gregorio Cabrera, yes, here, but Gorro Cabrera, nothing,

but only me.

BP: But you ended up going back to the soap factory though,

right?

GC: Already in the truck.

FEMALE: Yeah. The Japanese pulled him out.

BP: So the Japanese pulled you out.

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: His boss got him out.

GC: So this boss, he know only my name Gorro, only name. So

the question, why you need this guy? They don’t interest

in me, maybe they don’t look for me now.

BP: Yeah.

GC: So my boss say oh, Gorro, already in the truck.

BP: You went back to the soap factory.

GC: So, I go back to the soap factory.

BP: Do you remember the first air raid, the first time the

American planes flew over Saipan?

GC: I think that’s February.

BP: It is February, according to the history books.

GC: Yes, February, the first planes come to Saipan.

BP: Where were you?

GC: I was then, in the soap factory.

BP: And where was the soap factory?

GC: Now, it’s maybe near to the CHC Hospital now. Because the

road is now, Middle now.

BP: You could see the planes coming over? You need to get

closer to the microphone.

GC: Okay, that time, they have a problem in my machine in the

soap factory. I take this part to the tapioca factory,

because they’ve got the machine shop and whatever, place,

you know? So that time, maybe two o’clock in the

afternoon, one American, not a small plane, it’s a little

bit large, they throw a bomb in -- they got the two

factories, Nanyo Tapioca and Kohatsu Tapioca, that time is

the Japanese army, they’re using a car, they’re loading

cargo to moving to someplace.

BP: Yeah. This is near Tanapag?

GC: That’s -- no, it’s Lower Base.

BP: Lower Base, okay. Okay, so that’s where you were when the

planes came?

GC: I stayed in the tapioca factory, because the machine shop

didn’t work for me.

BP: And that’s near Lower Base?

GC: Yeah. At that time, they passed one plane, and with that

plane, they throw a bomb in the road, because they saw

Japanese army moving. So, they throw in the road, a bomb.

I know one child was killed from the rock, you know, a

jumping rock in the head.

BP: Is that a Chamorro child?

GC: This is a Japanese children. At that time, I noticed that

plane has never come back. They go from this way and go to

the north. There’s only one bomb thrown.

BP: Only one bomb. That’s the only plane you saw there?

GC: Yes. I saw maybe eight planes very high, before that, you

know? They fly from the north. Those planes, they’re

taking picture of the island. Those eight planes, taking

pictures. Even Japanese noticed that one, because they had

take picture of the island before they destroyed the

island. I saw that picture, before the war and after the

war, picture.

BP: Did you see any American planes shot down?

GC: No.

BP: No. Okay. Did you see any ships being sunk, Japanese

ships being sunk in the harbor?

GC: No.

BP: Never saw that.

(break in audio)

BP: When did you learn, or when did you have a feeling that

Saipan might be invaded by the Americans? Did somebody

tell you or did you just?

GC: Nobody.

BP: So you didn’t know.

GC: Because I don’t know, I mean a guy, I never see. That’s

why I’m afraid to, you know.

BP: Okay, so where were you when the invasion started, what

part of Saipan?

GC: I stayed in Gualo Rai. At that time, they already made

invasion near to island, so that’s a heavy fight. In the

campaign, the Japanese guns.

BP: So you’re in Gualo Rai.

GC: They got the three, four guns below my ranch, they’re

shooting planes. So, I think they are more heavy from the

air, throw bombs, so these operators run away.

BP: Oh, they run away.

GC: So they pass near to my house, my ranch in Gualo Rai, so

the Japanese say, we’d better go move into the mountains,

because of the heavy bombing by Americans. Okay, so I

followed them.

BP: By yourself or your whole family?

GC: My family. Let’s go up, because very heavy bombings. My

mother and some of my brother needs to get out and go to

the Tapochau. So, Tapochau, you can see down the ocean,

all the way. So that day is hiking. Okay, so second day,

we’re still in Tapochau. So the second day, early in the

morning, I can see from the north side, the smoke, like

there’s smoke you know? Only smoke I saw, plenty of smoke

like this, because that one ship, it’s in sight. So,

they’re coming. I saw already, a ship. I don’t know whose

ship, Japanese ship or American ship, come from the north.

So, first, first what you call cannon, a big gun, they

shoot from the Managaha.

BP: Oh, there was a big gun on Managaha?

GC: Yeah.

BP: That fired at the ship.

GC: For the ship. But no, no strike to the ship, it went to

the ocean.

BP: It hit in the water, yeah.

GC: So, continued the ship, coming. The second launch, the

Hyatt, this is also navy station there, a gun was.

BP: At the Hyatt.

GC: Yes. So, Americans not to shoot because very far. So

continue. After going to maybe Garapan, the Americans

started to shoot over Garapan, to make a fire. All Garapan

is fire that day, one day continuous fire.

BP: So how long did you stay on Mount Tapochau?

GC: Only three days I stay.

BP: With your whole family?

GC: Yes.

BP: And then where did you go?

GC: So, after Tapochau, I went to Chalan Galaide, then I go

down to As Teo.

BP: Okay, you didn’t stay in Chalan Galaide.

GC: No.

BP: Were there a lot of Chamorros there?

GC: Yes, lots of Chamorro, also a father and sister stay at

some friend’s house in Chalan Galaide.

BP: Your father stayed in Chalan Galaide?

FEMALE: Father, a priest.

GC: No, no, no, a priest.

BP: Oh, a priest was there.

GC: And a sister.

BP: And a sister -- is that Sister Angelica?

GC: I don’t know, but everybody stayed in Chalan Galaide, at

the house.

BP: Did you know Modesto Salas?

GC: Modesto, yes.

BP: Was he in Chalan Galaide, did you see him in Chalan

Galaide?

GC: I don’t see, but I know his name.

BP: So then you went to As Teo.

GC: I’m going to As Teo. I stay in As Teo more than a week,

more than a week.

BP: So you were there with her family?

FEMALE: No.

GC: She’s in another site, in still the ranches a little bit.

BP: Further.

GC: So I stayed in the place, they’ve got water. I know these

people.

BP: Were there Japanese soldiers there too?

GC: Not much but the hospital, soldier hospital, it’s like --

what’s it called?

BP: The big cave?

GC: No, no, no, between mountain and the mountain.

BP: Oh, a valley.

GC: Valley. They are making what do you call it, a hospital

there.

BP: They were making a hospital there.

GC: Yes. So, maybe after two days, the American plane come to

the As Teo, there’s like a small plane there, no shoot,

just three runs, in As Teo. They made sure that valley,

because plenty of Japanese soldiers there, maybe made sure

how many degree or what position. So this planes go to the

ship that afternoon. So after then, the ship, they come,

they shoot the valley.

BP: So they shelled the valley.

GC: Yes.

BP: Close to where you were?

GC: Yes. So, I stay over here, maybe the valley is on this

side. So they strike the place, you know.

BP: Yeah. Was anybody, any Chamorros killed or hurt there?

GC: Not there but I know two Chamorros died from the plane.

BP: There in As Teo?

GC: In As Teo.

BP: Do you remember their names?

GC: I know, yeah. Victoria, Manalisai.

FEMALE: Manalisai.

GC: Manalisai, Manalisai is it?

FEMALE: Antonia.

GC: Antonia Manalisai.

BP: Antonia and Manalisai?

GC: Yes. Two girls from inside the house, because the planes

should be --

BP: Strafe.

GC: Mission, yeah.

BP: What was their last name was?

FEMALE: Victoria Tudela Borja.

GC: Victoria Borja.

BP: She was killed.

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: And Juan [Carl?].

GC: Juan [Carl?].

FEMALE: And Antonia Manalisai.

BP: Mangalisai?

GC: Manalisai.

BP: Manalisai.

GC: These two died in the house.

BP: In the house.

GC: Because they’re missing them and shoot. And Juan [Carl?],

and Manuel Villigomez.

BP: Who?

GC: Manuel Villigomez.

BP: He was killed too?

GC: No, no, no. He got hit, the machinegun bullet here.

BP: Oh, right by his eye.

GC: This one.

BP: His eyebrow.

GC: It just what you call it?

BP: It just grazed him.

GC: Only this one.

BP: Very close.

GC: It passed -- the bullet.

BP: Wow.

FEMALE: It hit in the brow.

GC: He admits, I stand grapefruit tree.

BP: In a [red fruit?] tree.

GC: Yes. So that time the plane is --

BP: So bullets were hitting all around you?

GC: Yes. Just like any natural bomb, only machinegun. If I

throw a bomb, maybe immediately to die.

BP: But your friend, Manuel Villigomez, he was just grazed by

the eyebrow.

GC: Only, yeah.

BP: Very lucky.

GC: Very lucky.

FEMALE: (inaudible).

BP: Their interview?

FEMALE: He was talking about that.

BP: Okay. So what happened after that?

GC: After that, why you -- the blood coming up? I don’t know.

He don’t feeling because it was --

FEMALE: Numb.

BP: It was numb.

GC: Numb. They don’t know.

BP: He didn’t have any feeling.

GC: No feeling but the blood is coming out. So I take my towel

and I put it, make you know?

BP: Make a dressing for it.

GC: Too tight. Okay. That night is everybody moving from that

area.

BP: Where did they go?

GC: One group going to Talofofo and going to the beach side.

My group, second group, --

(break in audio)

GC: From As Teo to Talofofo, and we’re facing this side,

Tanapag.

BP: You’re facing towards Tanapag.

GC: Tanapag. One group is facing this way, going to the beach,

the Talofofo Beach. So my group, facing Tanapag. My

guide, group, he knows they have an underground cave.

BP: In Talofofo?

GC: No, no, in Tanapag. There’s, we call [Bokumo?] in

Japanese.

BP: Oh, in Japanese.

FEMALE: [Bokumo?] means shelter.

GC: Underground shelter, digging and put something to cover and

get shelter. This, I go there.

BP: So you went to Tanapag.

GC: Tanapag.

BP This is with your whole family?

GC: The whole family and maybe 40 people together.

BP: Okay, so you arrived in Tanapag?

GC: In Tanapag, and I stayed there until American invasion come

to catch us.

BP: Okay, now this was before the banzai charge?

GC: This banzai is there.

BP: Okay, but you surrendered to the Americans before the

banzai charge took place?

GC: Banzai?

BP: The banzai charge was what, July 7th.

FEMALE: No, it was before.

GC: Before.

BP: You surrendered. Was anybody else killed in your group or

no?

GC: Yes. Some woman died in a cave because the new, newborn

baby and very weak, so she died one.

BP: The mother died?

GC: Yes.

BP: Do you remember her name?

GC: [Celia?], the name is [Celia?] Sablan.

BP: Okay and what was her name again? She gave birth in the

cave.

GC: [Celia?].

BP: S-A-L?

GC: [Celia?] is -- Sablan.

BP: Anyway, you went to Tanapag and you were all hiding in the

same cave?

GC: Yes.

BP: And one woman gave birth there.

GC: Yeah, the one pass away.

BP: But she gave birth to the baby in the cave?

GC: No, the baby is still alive.

BP: No, but did she give --

GC: The mother died.

BP: No, but did she give birth while she was in the cave?

GC: No, no, no.

FEMALE: Somewhere along the --

BP: She gave birth sometime before?

GC: Yes.

BP: Where at?

GC: And the baby young, but still with the mother.

BP: From giving birth.

GC: So maybe worry and something you know, so she died.

BP: Did she give birth while she was in As Teo, or did she give

birth in Tanapag?

GC: I don’t know when, but --

FEMALE: Even before, when they were maybe in As Teo.

BP: Oh, even before the invasion. Okay. Okay, so what do you

remember about your first Americans? Were they shooting at

you when you surrendered or what happened?

GC: No. Before the Americans come, the tank, American tank,

the noisy, choo-choo-choo-choo, you know? So at that time,

I stay out of sight, so everybody go inside the cave. So

that tank passed in my -- you know?

BP: It passed by the cave?

GC: The underground shelter.

BP: Okay, it passed by, okay.

GC: So this tank, shoot machineguns. So one family, four men

and one baby, stay under, like a house but no more top, on

the bottom floor, stayed there, those four, four adult and

one baby.

BP: So they were underneath the floor of the house.

GC: They stayed there. One baby. So, that four got shot by

machinegun.

BP: They were killed?

GC: Yes, four.

BP: Because they thought they were Japanese?

GC: With the machineguns. Yeah, Japanese. They point their

machinegun and then they shoot, and one Chamorro guy

killed, and one guy, he stayed under cow leather, the cow

leathers go like this, and the leather.

BP: The what?

FEMALE: Cow skin.

GC: Cow skin, leather, skin.

BP: Oh, for the cow. No, but I want to get back to, there were

four adults and one baby under the house, they all were

killed?

FEMALE: Yes. And also this one Chamorro man, one Chamorro

man, he dragged my father, and this time they have a

blanket. When you kill cows, they took the skin and they

dried it.

GC: The skin, and dry it. And after they dry that, we use the

leather, and put them in some kind of a giant sofa. They

use that as like, like the roof, to be a roof or umbrella,

was like a roof. The man was underneath that, so when the

attacks came, he hid in this cow skin and he died. I know

this man.

BP: So he was hiding under a cow skin.

FEMALE: That’s right, yeah.

BP: And the tank ran over him and crushed him.

GC: Yeah, it go like this position, okay that time, hit his

side. The man is lying down under there. So this one,

it’s very hot, the dry skin, very hot. So, they hit this

one and include the head, to the ground.

BP: So it crushed his head.

GC: It pushed down the head to the ground.

BP: Crushed it.

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: He died.

BP: What was his -- do you know his name?

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: Joaquin Sablan.

BP: Joaquin Sablan.

GC: Serafin.

FEMALE: And the other one is Serafin.

BP: They were both in the same skin?

FEMALE: In the skin.

BP: So there were two people killed under there.

GC: Serafin, the tanks, with the cow skin to the ground, and

Joaquin Sablan is by machinegun.

BP: Who was under the cow skin?

GC: Serafin.

BP: Serafin.

GC: Serafin Borja.

BP: Borja.

GC: Borja.

BP: But only one person was underneath the cow.

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: It was too hot, then Serafin (inaudible).

GC: Me too, I stayed there, before the time coming, I heard it,

choo-choo-choo-choo, that gun, brrrrrr, they’re shooting

machineguns.

BP: So you left the cow skin?

GC: I move before the time comes. I go inside the hole. So

only him.

BP: He was killed.

GC: Yeah. Everybody go but he said it’s very hot. They got

the two shelters; they had a small one and a big one. So

it’s they and the brother inside the small shelter.

BP: Shelter.

GC: He said very hot inside, so he go out his shelter and going

under like that, you know.

BP: Under the shelves.

GC: So that time the tank come in.

BP: So there were two people killed there or one?

FEMALE: These were the ones where they were killed was here,

under here, the cow skin, and Joaquin was kill from when

the --

GC: The machinegun.

BP: Machinegun.

GC: Machinegun. And four Japanese, four Japanese under the

what you call that?

BP: Under the…?

GC: The floor.

BP: Under the floor?

GC: Four Japanese.

BP: Were killed too.

GC: And one baby.

BP: Oh. So the people under the floor were Japanese, not

Chamorro.

GC: Yes, Japanese.

BP: Were they civilians?

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: Civilians.

BP: Okay.

GC: So, these four die and one baby not die.

BP: So the baby didn’t die?

GC: No die, because they -- between the, the…

BP: Adults?

GC: This baby, they shoot also, machinegun, the house.

BP: Oh, they shot the fingers.

FEMALE: The fingers from the baby.

BP: Now was this a family?

GC: A family. They got, I think three fingers damaged from the

bullet, not missing. They miss, only the skin.

BP: Yeah. So he still has the fingers though.

GC: Yes, still got fingers but something…

BP: They’re misshapen.

GC: Yes. If you would talk to him, you can see that. I don’t

know, maybe left finger, hand.

BP: Left hand, okay. Does he know the name of his Japanese

family that was killed there?

GC: I know that his mother, I don’t know the name, but the

mother, she is -- I know the name is Japanese.

BP: You don’t remember their names?

GC: I don’t know the mother’s name, but Japanese. Mother

Japanese and --

FEMALE: His name is Mitch, and one of the -- it’s Abraham.

BP: Abraham.

FEMALE: There was a mother, a sister. He can’t remember the

mother’s name but his mother cannot (inaudible).

BP: Okay, so when did you surrender then, to the Americans,

right after that?

GC: No, the next day.

BP: The next day you surrendered?

GC: Yes. The next day, the walking soldier, at that time, I go

out.

BP: Did everybody just come out and raise their hands then?

GC: Yes.

BP: So what do you remember about that time?

GC: I remember they take off on the drum, everybody, and take

most of the Lower Base, because Tanapag is the Lower Base,

because I was staying there. So, one lady is very sick.

FEMALE: They were going to meet, meet this guy, the one, the

soldier.

GC: Okay. So today is the machinegun coming, today. So, the

next day, --

BP: Right.

GC: -- a walking soldier come too. So that night, overnight

the baby cry. We go, in Japanese they say obu.

BP: Obu.

GC: Obu means I’m hungry or thirsty. The Japanese using that

obu, obu no.

BP: So you heard the baby saying that.

GC: Overnight.

BP: Overnight, okay.

GC: Yes. So the next, next morning, they cut out. So already,

I stay outside and I tell the American soldier, we’ve got

one baby over there. I don’t know how to say it now.

BP: In English.

GC: But baby. I know babies are children, baby there. So,

that’s all you say. Okay, little one, because -- then

danger because the Japanese soldier may be hiding

someplace, dangerous. Only me, I go, I take this baby.

I’m sorry. I’m very strong. I hold the sick lady, another

lady. I go like this and I see, she’s got cuts there, but

very sick, weak.

FEMALE: Very weak.

GC: So I’m strong. So I carried that lady.

FEMALE: For six hours.

GC: Carried that lady. Yeah. We put the food like that,

Japanese, and I walk through there.

BP: Okay, so you carried the Chamorro lady.

GC: Yes.

BP: And you gave Mitch, the baby, to another woman.

GC: To another lady, to carry.

BP: Okay. And you could see his parents were dead under the

house?

GC: No, I don’t see. Oh, Mitch’s mother already died, four

others.

BP: Are there children too, or just four adults?

GC: No, the Mitch stayed between the adults overnight.

BP: Okay. So then, where did you go from there?

GC: So, we carried this sick lady and walking with the American

soldier. He call on the radio, to bring the jeep and what

you call that?

BP: Stretcher.

GC: To put the sick people.

BP: Okay. Did you see Mitch Pangelinan after that?

GC: After that, I’m going to -- everybody going to the --

FEMALE: The camp.

BP: Camp Susupe?

GC: Camp Susupe. Some lady take care of Mitch. I know that

Mitch’s mother have a sister in camp, so this lady gives to

the, the mother for Mitch, sister.

BP: Oh, so T. Abraham’s mother.

FEMALE: The Japanese lady.

GC: Japanese.

BP: Yeah, I know she’s Japanese, and she was the sister of

Mitch’s mother?

FEMALE: Mitch’s mother.

GC: Mitch’s mother.

BP: Oh, so Mitch’s mother, -- so Mitch knows who his parents

were probably then.

FEMALE: I don’t know.

BP: From T. Abraham’s mother must have told him.

FEMALE: I don’t know but they’re telling him that he came from

where but maybe when --

GC: Family now knows Mitch.

FEMALE: Yeah, when he -- (overlapping).

GC: This maybe, going obu, obu.

(break in audio)

BP: How were you recruited to be a Marine Scout? How did that

take place?

GC: So, after --

FEMALE: A policeman before that.

BP: Oh, you were a policeman first?

GC: I’m a policeman first, then --

FEMALE: I think from the policeman, they recruit him.

GC: Recruit some Carolinians and Chamorro, just about 70.

BP: So you’re a policeman in Camp Susupe and then the Marines

recruited you to be a Marine Scout.

GC: Yes, because I watching the Japanese coming, the Chamorro

police and Marines, one Chamorro and one Marine together,

watching the Japanese camp, not to go out and not to go in.

So I’m watching that one.

BP: So you were guarding the Japanese camp.

GC: The Japanese camp.

BP: How long did you do the before you became a scout?

GC: One, I think one year, I working as guard.

BP: No, no, but you said you were a guard at Camp Susupe. When

did you become a Marine Scout?

GC: After one year, they --

FEMALE: After the span of a year, they went to training.

BP: Let me understand this. You became a Marine Scout after

the war?

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: After the war, yes.

BP: Oh, so you were not a Marine Scout during the war?

FEMALE: No, no.

GC: No, no, no.

BP: So, where did you go for your training to be a Marine

Scout?

GC: So, the 2nd Marine Division is the headquarters, this

govern office, there’s the headquarters, the Marines, 2nd

Marine Division.

BP: So that was 1946 or ’45?

GC: No, it was ’44, ’45.

BP: So you were -- you became a Marine Scout in 1944.

GC: Forty-four, yes.

BP: This is confusing, because you said you were a policeman

for one year?

GC: Yes, a policeman, and one Marine together watching the

Japanese camp or the Chamorro camp.

BP: Okay, now you said you did that for one year.

GC: For one year.

BP: But when exactly did you become a Marine Scout? When you

were a policeman guarding the camp, you were a Marine

Scout.

GC: Yes. So, they recruiting Chamorro to looking for snipers

in jungle.

BP: Okay, now when was that, what month?

GC: This is 1944, ’45.

BP: Okay, what month did you become a Marine Scout?

GC: I don’t remember the month, but that year.

BP: This was -- now, Saipan was declared secure on July 15th, I

think, 1944.

GC: July 15th.

BP: And then you started looking for snipers when?

GC: After then.

BP: Okay, this is like when Captain Oba.

GC: After they take the Saipan, the Americans, they recruit

some Chamorro, because I can speak Japanese, to go the

Japanese inside the cave, if they still have people there,

to come out, to save your life.

BP: And you did that for how long?

GC: Just about a couple, five, four months.

BP: Four months. Did you get any to surrender?

GC: Yes, yes.

BP: How many Japanese? Were they civilians or soldiers, or

both?

GC: No, soldier and civilians. I think the soldiers, maybe

they changed their soldier uniform.

FEMALE: They would go sometimes, go into --

GC: Before policemen, I’m working AGF Company.

BP: What’s AGF?

GC: Army -- that’s Army, U.S. Army, that telephone cable,

digging and put the cable in the ground.

BP: Cable in the ground, okay.

GC: I working there for a few months.

BP: And then you became a camp guard.

GC: Yes. So, we continued working there, from Chalan Kanoa, to

the Felipe. The Felipe is past Gualo Rai.

BP: Chinatown?

GC: Yes, the Chinatown, half of the Chinatown area.

FEMALE: To the right of the mountain.

BP: You were laying communication cables.

GC: I working there, digging, and put the cable in, underground

cable. One time, we’re working and the truck coming and

start work. The two machines, they put there, the digging

machine and the hand, hammer, jackhammer. These two

machines. So that night, two Japanese coming out from the

mountain, snipers, and they were in a hole and they hit

that machine and I cannot work anymore the next day. They

hid someplace and they hit the machine, so they hit at

night. So that morning, we cannot work because the machine

cannot be running because it got hit. They take these two

machines to shop and they bring another two, so continue

that day. Okay, before four-thirty, the American watching

the --

BP: The machine.

GC: They don’t watch the machine before that, you know? From

that, the next day, they bring two lines, the whole like

this, they put a line like this, and they hanging empty

cans, maybe four, four cans were hanging. Okay, they do

that, that’s called a trap. The men come in and they hit

that line, maybe they signal the camp. So they put one

guard that night, next day, that night. So, they coming

out that night, the snipers too, so only one got stay here,

the line go like this. So, they hit the line and they’re

noisy, so they put the machinegun. So that morning, I come

to work, I saw the dead guys.

BP: The dead Japanese.

GC: The Japanese snipers. So, the guard with me, the Army man,

still got the guard man there watching, and they took the

Japanese head like this and they saw two gold tooth.

BP: Gold teeth?

GC: They put the gun like this and put the toilet paper and

wrapped the --

BP: The gold teeth.

GC: -- teeth and put it in pocket.

BP: What did you think about that? Were you shocked?

GC: Yeah. I don’t know the guy, only the go into this, they

(inaudible) and take this body.

BP: So they knocked the guy -- the Japanese, they knocked his

gold teeth out with a rifle?

GC: Not the rifle. Some Japanese during the war, nothing gone.

BP: No, but the American, the American hit his --

GC: Yes.

BP: Yeah?

GC: Because already die. They opened the mouth and they saw

gold teeth. They hit the gun there, like that, and break

this one and put --

BP: What did you think about that? What did you think about

that? Was that the wrong thing to do?

GC: I don’t know, it’s maybe only that interesting. So after

then, they took those people, take the two bodies.

BP: So, but then you were in the hills as a Marine Scout for

four or five months, getting Japanese to surrender?

GC: Yes.

BP: Were you ever shot at?

GC: No, shot, but they calling in Japanese language.

BP: Yeah, but did the Japanese shoot at you?

GC: No.

BP: No. Okay. So how many Japanese surrendered to you?

GC: My group is not go to northern islands on Saipan, but I’m

watching the office. Then, it was -- the old golf course

up there, they got the station there, I stayed there.

BP: What golf course?

GC: I’m not go to the mountain, because I’m not --

BP: So you stayed in the office most of the time.

GC: Yes, I stayed in the office.

BP: And what was your job in the office?

GC: I’m watching these men.

BP: So you weren’t in the field very much.

GC: I’m not very much go to the field. Some people, some group

is going to northern island, there’s a big guy and

(inaudible).

BP: Do you know who? Do you remember the names of anybody who

went to the northern island?

GC: Yeah, I think I know.

BP: What was their names?

GC: One is (inaudible).

BP: Mariana what?

GC: [Rochan?]. These are Carolinians, all the Carolinians

people going to northern island.

FEMALE: Then they have to do --

GC: Working there, for the what do you call that, copra.

BP: Copra, okay. Did you ever see any Japanese mistreated by

American troops?

GC: What?

BP: Did you ever see any Japanese mistreated by American

soldiers?

FEMALE: [interprets].

GC: No.

BP: Okay. Did you see any Japanese American soldiers? There

were some Japanese Americans who spoke Japanese.

GC: Yes. There was some Americans speak Japanese.

BP: Okay, after the -- when the Americans took over and the war

was over, how did you make a living on Saipan?

FEMALE: [interprets].

GC: My job as policeman and the 2nd Marines.

BP: So how long were you in the Marines?

GC: After the policeman, they resigned the policemen, to join

my wife, her business.

BP: So you worked with your wife in her business?

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: (inaudible).

GC: Yeah, and during that time, for 18 months.

BP: Eighteen months?

FEMALE: I running the business by myself.

GC: Before that.

BP: How many years were you a policeman?

GC: Nine years.

BP: Nine years, okay.

GC: Before I assigned in policeman, we caught two Japanese.

BP: What year was it?

GC: Nineteen fifty-three.

BP: Nineteen fifty-three. Where was that?

FEMALE: Down there someplace.

GC: Down the ah, a little bit down there in the mountain.

BP: I-Denni?

FEMALE: You know where is the Thompson, right?

BP: Thompson?

FEMALE: Yeah. He just (inaudible) Japanese soldier

(inaudible).

BP: He’s an American?

GC: Yeah.

FEMALE: Yes, he was down here too. His wife (inaudible). If

you go down here, straight down here, go and it is right

there.

BP: There’s the Castro family down at I-Denni. There’s Ringo

Castro.

FEMALE: Yeah, that’s another part of the family.

BP: Okay, well he was showing me some caves on his property.

He says there were Japanese there until 1956.

FEMALE: No, it was 1953. I know this because that is when his

group --

GC: Nobody knows this. A lot of people, they stay until ’56?

No, that’s ’53.

BP: Fifty-three.

FEMALE: Nineteen fifty-three.

BP: And that was near the Thompson residence?

GC: The Thompson house, a little bit low, the area.

BP: Are you sure? There’s several caves there, on Ringo

Castro’s property.

FEMALE: Oh, Ringo Castro, yeah that’s right. Ringo Castro’s

father is the one soldier, that he’s the one who caught the

(break in audio)

GC: I telling you, somebody from that Japanese alive, there’s

two, in 1953, we catch that two.

BP: How did you capture -- there were two of them. How did you

capture them?

GC: Okay. That morning, one guy got found a little bit down,

called Felix Borja.

FEMALE: Felix Borja, his name.

GC: The name. He’s working in the power plant every day, so

he’s going maybe four o’clock, to the ranch and feeding the

pigs and the chickens. So before seven, he have to go back

to work. So he drive in the jeep, he saw one fruit bat go

like this, past the road. The fruit bat stay in a tree, so

he like to catch the bats. He take the gun, shotgun,

because allowed the gun at that time. He was looking for

the bats. So he’s looking up and maybe tried to find some

tree, to go inside a little bit, a little more inside, and

two Japanese stay on the ground, that morning. So, go like

this to the path, maybe find something, and looking in the

front, he saw two Japanese. Also, he saw but he run away.

BP: They saw him too huh?

GC: Yeah, he is scared already now, so he run away, going down

to the police station and report. So, that morning, they

are calling on the radio, everybody working or not working,

report to the office. So, everybody go to the office and

listen to what problem. So, we got to go back to the home,

and uniform and take the guns, and we go to Talofofo to

catch the Japanese. Okay, so that time is administration,

Hedges, that’s interior department at that time. Mr.

Hedges, the administration at that time. So, we go down to

Talofofo and using the combat patrol, I think that one,

two, three, every squad is four guys.

BP: You had 12 men down there.

GC: Yes. So these two Japanese already on a rock.

BP: They’re on top of a rock.

GC: Yes. This rock is maybe 24 feet around, like that, maybe

18, 20 feet up. Stayed there and when you walk down, you

cannot see them.

BP: How big around, how big on top was it?

GC: Very big maybe. Maybe 24 feet. Twenty-four feet round,

one piece. So, some day I would like to go down and I

would like to see that, already 50 years. I cannot see

that one.

BP: It’s close to the road?

GC: Yes. So, if you see a person like this squad, you have to

put a signal, you know.

BP: Send a signal?

GC: The gun, you have to shoot. But these two guys are

nothing, there’s nothing, no gun. So, this squads they saw

them and they shoot in the air.

BP: They could see the Japanese?

GC: Yeah, or they did saw the Japanese up the rock. So, this

squad, they go right away, close to them. So, I tell them

to put hands up to their head, in Japanese language, and

don’t put down. If you put down, you’re going to be --

die, or you’re going to be -- lose the life. If you put

down your hands, maybe, you say maybe, something is going

to hit you. So, continue to stand up and put their hands

like this. So, me and Antonio Benavente, going up to check

the guys, so nothing, only --

BP: Loincloth.

GC: Only those, they had no clothes. So, I check everything

and take them down and take to the office.

BP: Do you remember their names, their Japanese names?

GC: One of my Japanese coming, maybe he might know.

BP: One of them comes back?

GC: No, no, I think there is my friend.

FEMALE: He asked one friend to look at.

GC: Look. Maybe I have to find out.

BP: Okay. So they were flown back to Japan after that?

FMALE: Yes.

BP: Okay. Your Japanese friend who comes here every year, was

he here during the war?

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: (inaudible).

GC: Bone collection.

FEMALE: So he mentioned this. I don’t know, anybody can read

these sometime.

BP: Now, does he come here every year?

FEMALE: Every year he’s coming.

GC: Every year.

BP: Now what did he do here during the -- before the war?

FEMALE: He’s, Kempeitai, like admin.

BP: Administrator?

FEMALE: Kempeitai.

GC: Kempeitai, VP it’s like a --

BP: Oh, he was Kempeitai; he was part of the Japanese secret

police.

GC: Yes, police.

BP: And you knew him before the war?

FEMALE: No. He didn’t know him until after the war.

GC: After the war.

FEMALE: While he coming and we make a friend, to settle right

here in this area, came down to the area, and the house to

buy, so then live here. He was with the Oba at the time.

GC: So later, (inaudible).

BP: Oh, he was with Oba.

GC: Oba.

FEMALE: But they always stay out there.

BP: What’s his name, do you know?

GC: [Kana Manabu?]

FEMALE: [Kana Manabu?]

GC: [Kana Manabu?].

FEMALE: Maybe I’ll look later in these books, and I can --

BP: Okay.

GC: Before, see Oba.

FEMALE: I have pictures of many people from the jungle, but I

couldn’t read every single time. I think it was [Kana?],

in the picture.

GC: Before, they bring this group.

BP: Oh yeah, 1986, Captain Oba, yeah. I read the book.

FEMALE: That is the one.

BP: Okay. What do you think was the best part about living

under the Japanese? What was the best thing about the

Japanese period?

FEMALE: [interprets]

GC: I think I like Japanese before the war.

BP: Before the war, you liked the Japanese.

GC: Yes, because they treated us like people, you know. Close

to the war, the Japanese already a little something, they

got the discrimination already.

BP: So they had discrimination before the war?

GC: Yes. That’s close to the war, already have discrimination.

BP: Their attitude changed?

FEMALE: Attitude, yes.

BP: So was the war got closer, their attitude changed towards

Chamorros.

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: They hit the Chamorros.

BP: They hit the Chamorros. Were you ever hit by the Japanese?

GC: No.

FEMALE: They had a good time with Japanese until that, it

redefined.

BP: Okay, then what do you think was the worst part about the

Americans coming over and taking over? What changes did

Americans bring to Saipan that you don’t like?

GC: I think the Americans are good, because they treat the

people like people.

BP: They treat people like people?

GC: Like people.

BP: Okay. And the Japanese treated --

GC: No. That’s why the Japanese, because before yes, like

Americans, okay, but during the war, already

discrimination.

BP: Okay, but before the war, there was discrimination before

the war, yes?

GC: Maybe but not really, it was still okay before the war, but

close to the war.

FEMALE: That’s not the street before the war. There was

discrimination whatever the Japanese, we’re the number two.

Japanese number one, number two was Chamorro number two.

But we don’t feel what they are doing to us.

GC: It was still okay for us.

FEMALE: But when it comes to the war, that time, they are bad,

you know.

BP: So they were -- the Japanese were nice to you during

peacetime, but when the war got close to Saipan, then they

were mean.

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay, now how about the Americans? Were they -- the

Americans were always the same? Because I understand that

during the Trust Territory, they had -- if you were an

American working here, you got a good salary, but if you

were Chamorro, you got a lower salary.

FEMALE: This is about the salary, yes. The American people

from Guam, whether you were citizen or not, they give good

salary. But only Chamorro working, they got a very low

salary, maybe because not enough education. No college.

BP: But if you were a Chamorro from Guam, you got the same

salary?

FEMALE: Yes, the same salary.

BP: If you were a Chamorro from Saipan, you got a lower salary?

GC: Yes.

FEMALE: Yes. So that is a kind of treatment they give you.

And I think I remember, because one of my brothers was

working over there.

BP: Yeah. Okay, so if you were to compare the Japanese

occupation of Saipan, and compare the American occupation

of Saipan, what would you say is -- about the American

occupation that was not good? Is there anything not good

about the American occupation of Saipan? Before the

commonwealth.

(break in audio)

GC: The Americans come to Saipan, we trust everybody. The

transfer period is very slow to improve our people in

Saipan.

BP: Improve what, the economy?

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: Economy and the education. Some children like to go to --

going for education, college outside, because Saipan,

nothing. The transfer period you cannot go.

BP: You cannot go to college.

GC: You cannot go to college.

BP: They won’t let you.

GC: Yes. So that’s why we stay in Saipan until, until coming

to congress or something, working for that.

BP: Okay, when did things change? When did things get better

in Saipan? Was it under the Kennedy administration?

FEMALE: The Kennedy administration because when my other

daughter is allowed to go to school on returning.

GC: You know why delay of Saipan? Because after the World War

II, the United Nations, the Trust Territory, then come and

go. So, we previously had the United Nations no more in

Saipan, the United Nations, then things got to normal,

Trust Territory. Now, become normal. That was delayed,

this to, to --

FEMALE: To educate ourselves.

GC: To the United Nations and Trust Territory. We cannot go

outside because still, United Nations.

BP: Yeah. They wouldn’t let you leave, huh?

GC: Not belong to American at that time, belong to the UN.

BP: So when did things start getting better? In your mind, in

your thinking, when did things get better?

GC: I think the commonwealth is --

BP: Once the commonwealth started, things started getting

better.

GC: Better in the commonwealth.

BP: Do you think a lot of that has to do with the fact that the

Japanese came back with money?

GC: Yes.

BP: That has a lot to do with it.

GC: A lot of people is millionaire, lots of people millionaire,

who are selling land, you know. Not us.

BP: Okay. But things, -- I guess so as long as the Americans

are here, as far as educational opportunities and economic

opportunities, there just wasn’t too much.

FEMALE: Yeah. It’s not good because not the United Nations,

it was --

(break in audio)

BP: Okay, first of all you said that when you were a policeman,

you were in Rota for a while. So, when did you go to Rota

and how long did you stay there?

GC: I go from Saipan to Rota in June. I don’t remember like

that.

BP: What year is this?

GC: Nineteen forty-eight.

BP: Nineteen forty-eight, okay.

GC: In June.

BP: Okay, until when? You came back?

GC: I stayed eight months in Rota.

BP: Eight months. You said you saw your brother, Jose there?

Did you say you saw one of your brothers there or no?

GC: No, my brother is still on Guam.

BP: Okay. Now, why were you sent to Rota? What was the reason

for sending you to Rota?

GC: I’m going to be watching the Rota Island, because before

that, Guam police watching Rota, so by June, 1948, they

send me to Rota to release the Guam police.

BP: The Guamanians.

GC: Yes. From that time, Rota is watching from the Saipan.

BP: Okay. So they were bringing in Chamorro police.

GC: Yes.

BP: Who was the other Chamorro from Saipan who went with you?

GC: [Gravid?] Borja.

BP: What was the first name?

GC: [Gravid?].

BP: [Grabio?]?

GC: [Gravid?] Boja.

BP: Okay, how do you spell that?

GC: G-R-

FEMALE: G-R-A-B --

BP: G-R-A-B? Okay, so you were there for eight months and then

who took over as policemen in Rota, after you came back?

GC: So, I lived on Rota, so my -- [Gravid?] Borja is still

there.

BP: He stayed there.

GC: So then another guy sent to Rota again. I don’t know who,

but they send another policeman to Rota.

BP: So, [Gravid?], he stayed there for how many years?

GC: He stays a long time because they married in Rota.

BP: Oh, he married in Rota, okay.

GC: I don’t know how many years.

BP: Okay, you were saying in February, when the Americans first

bombed Saipan, there was a Japanese child over in Tanapag,

who was killed by a rock from the bomb. Were her parents

there or was she --

GC: My parents?

BP: No, the parents of the Japanese child who was killed by the

rock.

FEMALE: [interprets].

GC: They throw one bomb in road, because they saw Japanese

army.

BP: Trucks.

GC: They’re moving to someplace because they’re using horse

car, the Japanese child.

BP: Okay, now were her parents there at the time too?

GC: Oh, no, I don’t know, because the road.

BP: Did you go over to help the child or you just saw?

GC: I’m not go there, because I stayed in the tapioca factory.

BP: Okay, you mentioned Antonio and Manalisai; they were in a

house in As Teo.

GC: Yes, that’s Manalisai.

BP: M-A-N-A?

FEMALE: L-I-S-A-I.

BP: Now is that two words, Mana and Lisai?

GC: Manalisai.

FEMALE: Manalisai, this is Antonio.

BP: Oh. Okay, so there’s Antonio Manalisai and Victoria Tudela

Borja, who were killed by the American plane that strafed

the house.

GC: The machinegun.

BP: In As Teo.

GC: In As Teo. And Juan [Carl?].

BP: Okay. How was your diet different during the Japanese

period and what did you eat then that you don’t eat now? I

mean, you didn’t eat Spam?

GC: No.

BP: What would you say was your --

GC: That’s uncooked eat, like sugarcane.

BP: Fruit?

GC: The coconuts.

FEMALE: Yeah, coconut.

GC: Yeah, coconuts or all coconut, we eat, because you cannot

put fire, because the Japanese soldiers.

BP: No, before the war, when you were in Japanese times, you

know before the war came to Saipan, you didn’t have Span

and you didn’t have --

FEMALE: The Americans brought that. We eat mostly banana,

[carrot?] and any kind of --

GC: (overlapping dialogue; not transcribed).

FEMALE: This is only during the time in season, grapefruit.

GC: Grapefruit, they have season.

FEMALE: Nothing in the English languages that the rice balls,

you know like you eat.

BP: You ate a lot of rice then?

FEMALE: No, we don’t have rice.

BP: You didn’t?

FEMALE: Japanese rationed the rice.

BP: Even during peacetime?

FEMALE: Yeah, we don’t have much, and we’re not used to. The

Chamorro, they just would eat corn.

GC: Corn.

BP: Corn.

FEMALE: Corn, all the people.

BP: So during Japanese time, mostly you ate local produce.

FEMALE: Yes.

BP: Fruits, vegetables, corn.

FEMALE: Yes, and everybody raising chicken or beef or cow,

things like that. Ham pigs or whatever.

BP: Chicken, cows. Okay, so you didn’t eat rice because the

Japanese rationed that to the Japanese only?

GC: The rice, yes.

FEMALE: And we’re not used to rice.

BP: And you were not used to rice.

FEMALE: Yes. I think the Spanish used most the corn. So many

people can make corn tortillas for one week time, we can

put it up in the basket, we can dry it, we can store, or

sometime we can cook for supper with soup. It’s never get

damaged between the stone hearth and cook the -- put it

down in the fire, again like that. That way, we eat. We

always the seasoning mostly banana around the year, so we

boil that or we cook the coconut milk, or fry. All kinds

of --

BP: What did -- did you eat meat with almost every meal,

chicken or pig?

FEMALE: Yes, we do that.

GC: Sometimes.

FEMALE: I don’t know the other families, but my families,

we’ve got good farmers do the farming. We have almost

everything, so we’ve got chicken, we’ve got pigs, we’ve got

goats and all kinds of vegetables.

BP: So you had enough chickens and pigs and goats, that you

could have meat every day?

FEMALE: Yes. And eggs.

BP: And eggs every day. Okay, but no rice. Do you think your

diet was healthier during the Japanese period?

FEMALE: Yes, a very good diet like that you know. The

Japanese ladies and the Japanese --

(break in audio)

BP: Okay, do you remember -- where were problems with diabetes

in those days like there are today?

FEMALE: We never heard about it.

BP: So do you think diabetes is a modern problem?

FEMALE: I think because we got so much exercise, like me, when

we work on the farm for four hours, I always go every day,

Saturday, to shop in downtown, like with my feet or to get

something. We’re just walking.

GC: Walking.

FEMALE: Most the people have no cars. I don’t know how many

cars are in this time, and the Japanese had very few cars.

So our chores, we would get exercise.

BP: So you’re saying then, you got more exercise during the

Japanese period.

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: Yes.

BP: Nobody had cars. You walked and you took bicycles and the

bull cart.

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: People go, that’s Chamorro transportation.

BP: And you never heard of diabetes.

FEMALE: No.

GC: No.

FEMALE: Not even high blood, we don’t know about it.

BP: Do you think people had the weight problem, being

overweight in those days?

FEMALE: No.

GC: No.

BP: People were slim.

FEMALE: And everybody working hard on the farm. And I think

the diet is so good because we have vegetable almost every

day.

BP: Why don’t you think Chamorros, why don’t they go back to a

more traditional diet if it’s healthier?

FEMALE: I don’t know, they don’t have this time. Now you’ve

got so many party. At that time, we have not a party; it’s

only a party like --

BP: Now, do you still eat a lot of corn today or do you think

you eat more rice, or do you eat other -- is your

personally, is your diet different than it was in Japanese?

GC: In Japanese time or in this time?

BP: Is your diet now different than it was, yours personally.

GC: Different. Now it’s more rice, we eat more rice.

BP: Do you eat Spam and a lot of meat?

GC: Not Spam, I eat -- my breakfast is eggs. Every day I eat

eggs.

BP: Do you like Spam?

GC: Yeah, but not much.

BP: Not too much, okay. Now you said you worked for the

Sagami-gumi.

GC: Yes.

BP: Sagami-gumi Corporation.

GC: Yes.

BP: Can you describe the work you did? What sort of work

exactly was it, just physical, manual labor?

GC: At that time, I got a full cart, to have the -- Sagami-

gumi, like cow carts, we load them, the material. The

Japanese, they make in one place, everything, with the

materials.

BP: The wood?

GC: Wood. We’re loading this to the place to build the house.

BP: So you would go someplace where they were making the frame

of the building?

GC: Some Japanese carpenter make that one in the front.

BP: Oh, the notches?

GC: Yes.

BP: So they didn’t use nails?

GC: They’re using sometimes, but almost go like this, the

Japanese.

BP: Oh, the wood would fit together.

GC: Yes, yes.

BP: They would cut notches or joints in the wood.

GC: The joint like that, so like this. I don’t know, maybe

they put nails or not, but I don’t see the nails.

BP: So basically, you were transporting the wooden parts to the

structure, you’re transporting that to the site where it

was built?

GC: The cow cart, we’re loading this, because no more truck and

no more jeeps and things like that, only cow cart. Okay,

once we take water from the -- Puerto Rico.

BP: Puerto Rico, okay.

GC: From Puerto Rico to the Sagami-gumi’s place, you know?

BP: That was near Gualo Rai you said.

GC: We load drinking water, because no water there. I bring

water in the morning, to drink, to put down to the big

town, because the cook using that water for the cooking.

After finish that, we help the carpenter to load the

materials to the place to build the house. So after lunch,

again we’re going to be bringing more drinking water to

that place.

BP: Now, in San Roque, where you got the water, was there a

well or was it a collection system?

GC: No, this water come from some spring.

BP: There’s a spring in San Roque.

GC: No, no, no, this Puerto Rico place.

BP: Oh, I’m sorry, in Puerto Rico, okay.

GC: Puerto Rico.

BP: There was a spring.

GC: But the Japanese fixed this for the train, sometimes train

go to San Roque, they’re going to start them with water.

BP: From Puerto Rico.

GC: Because they --

BP: Puerto Rico is by where the dump is then, right?

GC: Yes.

BP: And is that spring still being used do you know?

GC: Yes. This is from somewhere, no? (inaudible).

FEMALE: Oh no.

(break in audio)

BP: The pipework, [Masteo?] to Puerto Rico.

FEMALE: To Puerto Rico.

GC: To Puerto Rico.

FEMALE: Because the dock and maybe the ship some time, they

get some water for the drink.

GC: Water, because the Japanese throwing this steam, ch-ch,

like that you know, the steam. That’s why they put one

there for train. So that place, I come also to put the

drum and we take to the place.

FEMALE: What place?

GC: [non-English].

BP: Okay, let me see. Okay, I didn’t get -- something I didn’t

understand very well. When you were hiding in Tanapag, you

surrendered to the Americans. When you were hiding there,

before you surrendered, did -- was the banzai charge, did a

banzai charge take place before you surrendered?

GC: What do you mean banzai?

BP: You know when the Japanese, they came running at the

Americans, about 4,000 got killed.

GC: The Japanese bullets, tried to shoot the Americans.

BP: This is Tanapag, the Americans were here, and then about

four or five thousand Japanese charged them. This was on

July 7th, I think. The Americans called that the great

banzai charge.

GC: Okay. Before the American come, maybe they broke land

before sunset down, they don’t notice that. No move at

nighttime, American. There’s only certain day I’m seeing

them like this. So, the Japanese group.

BP: Okay, now where were you? The Americans were here. Where

were you hiding?

GC: I hiding in Tanapag, a little bit up.

BP: Okay, about this way.

GC: Yes, this way. So this is the beach. American --

BP: Lines there.

GC: Line already here.

BP: And you’re where, here?

GC: I’m here.

BP: By the hills?

GC: Yes.

BP: Closer to the hills?

GC: Just about going up to the hill.

BP: Okay.

GC: There’s shelter there. I was there. So the Japanese go in

from the water, the beach, back of the American squadron.

That’s why I heard that big sound, you know.

BP: You heard the Japanese yelling.

GC: Yes. So American group, they turn back and shoot these

Japanese.

BP: Now was that near Achugao?

GC: No, this is Lower Base.

BP: Lower Base.

GC: Down at Lower Base. Lower Base.

BP: That’s where the banzai charge --

GC: [non-English]. We call that Puntan Flores.

BP: Oh, okay.

GC: That place name is Puntan Flores.

BP: Is that right near where the Japanese seaplane ramp was?

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: That’s right, that’s Puntan Flores is the name.

BP: Okay.

GC: Okay, Puntan Flores. I stay in Tanapag, already the name

is Tanapag.

BP: But that’s farther north isn’t it?

GC: That’s north.

BP: Yeah, so you were north of the American lines.

GC: North and east.

BP: Towards the hills. Okay, what -- now, where you were

hiding now, what is there? Where you were hiding then,

what is there now? Is it by the --

GC: We call that Tanapag.

BP: Is that by Tanapag School?

GC: Tanapag. No, no, no. Tanapag School is north.

BP: North.

FEMALE: North.

BP: Okay, so you were back more.

GC: The end of the Saipan Ice, close to that, a little bit up.

BP: Okay.

GC: The highway, we stay here.

BP: I should have brought some -- so then while you were

hiding, the banzai charge took place. Did the Japanese,

did they come anywhere close to where you were hiding

during the banzai charge?

GC: No, they, they’re going back from the ocean, the beach,

because they cannot walk here, because the Americans there

and shoot machinegun, overnight.

BP: Okay.

GC: I still hiding there.

BP: Was it the day after the banzai charge that you

surrendered, or two days?

GC: After, because the American line here, maybe down here. So

the next day this group, the next morning, they are going

this way.

BP: Okay.

GC: So that time is the, include the tank.

BP: Right.

GC: Going from the first squad, you know.

BP: So that was the day --

GC: They tank was shooting the machinegun.

BP: Right. So that was the day after the banzai charge that

you surrendered.

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay. Did you -- were you there when they buried all of

the dead Japanese?

GC: No.

BP: You didn’t see them burying the Japanese?

GC: Okay, that day, no buried. After the American catch me,

everybody bring to the (inaudible), because they got the

big warehouse, empty. So, all people catching from the

mountain, they’re going to stay there.

BP: The Chamorros.

GC: Chamorro, the Japanese, anybody.

BP: Okay, anybody. So, but there were 4,000 dead Japanese

after the banzai charge.

BP: Did you see what they did with the bodies?

GC: Yes. We passed there, maybe after two days. Some [OSHA?]

come, a jeep and the trailer. They like to looking down

farther, the father, the priest, because somebody said the

priest hiding in the obu, the name. Obu in Tanapag,

underground.

BP: Shelter?

GC: Shelter. So one of them take me and put me in a trailer

jeep, then go to the place, to looking for the priest. The

priest, nothing there. Maybe priest in Marpi.

BP: Marpi, yeah.

GC: So we passed there, the Japanese POW. Okay, already a

bulldozer digging there.

BP: Bulldozers.

GC: Bulldozer digging the --

BP: Trench.

GC: The ground to bury these dead people. So, I passed that

time, the -- when they bring the bodies to the hole, in the

hole.

BP: Okay.

GC: That time I pass. So, yeah, maybe 4,000 people, because

the bulldozer making two holes; one here and one here.

BP: Okay, one was close to the beach.

GC: No.

BP: No, it wasn’t close to the beach?

GC: No.

BP: Okay, let me just stop because the reason --

(break in audio)

FEMALE: It must be this area.

GC: Already a building.

FEMALE: The building for the executives.

GC: Already have a building.

BP: By CUC?

GC: No that’s maybe the garment.

BP: Oh, a garment, the garment factory sitting on top of the

graves maybe. Is that Willie Tan?

GC: The garment, Willie. Willie Tan was there making --

phosphate building area.

BP: [Billingham?] So is that closer to the road than it is to

the ocean?

GC: No, the ocean is still -- no, from the road.

BP: Okay, it’s closer to the road then.

GC: The ocean is very far from there.

FEMALE: The Americans come.

(break in audio)

BP: You said when you were working, after --

GC: I think this might be here.

BP: You said after you surrendered now, for one year, you

worked for the Army, digging a trench for a communication

cable, is that correct?

GC: Yes. After we go to Chalan Kanoa, sent down to Chalan

Kanoa, we joined the Army, for the AGF.

BP: What does AGF stand for?

GC: Army, this --

BP: Ground forces?

FEMALE: We only know it’s AGF.

GC: We call AGF, this Army.

BP: Okay. Now, did you say you did that for one year?

GC: Not for one year. Not in one year, because we called --

joined the police.

BP: Okay, so you did it for a few months?

GC: Just for like a few months, I’m working.

BP: Okay, now the trench you were digging, was that from Chalan

Kanoa to Gualo Rai, or Chalan Kanoa to Navy Hill?

GC: To Felipe, that was Felipe. Half of the Chinatown.

BP: Above Chinatown?

GC: Just up of the -- Felipe.

BP: Okay. Then you said you were a guard at Camp Susupe.

GC: Yes.

BP: And that was after you worked for the Army. You worked for

the Army, then you became a guard with the Marines.

GC: I joined the police there.

BP: Okay. Did you -- were you a guard at Camp Susupe until it

closed, until they sent the Japanese home?

GC: Yes.

BP: Okay. What sort of problems did you have with that job?

Did you have Japanese who tried to escape or did you have

Japanese soldiers who tried to sneak in?

GC: At that time is the Chamorro old lady, bring to the farm

there.

BP: She had a farm in Camp Susupe?

GC: No, no, no, this is Chalan Kiya.

BP: Oh, Chalan Kiya, okay.

GC: Okay. They bring in the money and maybe four-thirty, the

truck come and bring it to the camp. So, one afternoon,

that lady, they have a small shack, like they can go there,

you know. The ladies cleaned the fireplace before go to

the camp. So that night, the Japanese soldier write a

letter on the paper.

BP: On the paper.

GC: The Japanese writing. They put there and put the paper, so

not to the wind blow. So next morning, come again to work

in the farm, so the lady saw the paper, something, writing.

This is before I go, and asking how come this morning, the

old lady paper. When they take this paper with the

Japanese writing and ask somebody can read this and I said

me. The letter said, in the Japanese language, you wait

for me tonight.

BP: Wait for me tonight?

GC: Yeah, a soldier, on that paper saying wait for me tonight

in the camp, because I’m going to bring something; they say

on the paper.

BP: Right.

GC: Okay. So that day, before sunset down, they call all

policemen working or off duty, report to the office. So,

everybody go to the office and they say go back and get

uniform and get your rifle because they’re coming to the

site. So watching the Japanese come from the micro Toyota

like this, Texas Road, they go this way until they could go

like this. So only this, they’re going to watch, because

tonight going to be coming, the Japanese, the snipers, we

call them snipers.

BP: They called them snipers.

GC: To go to that camp.

BP: Okay.

GC: Okay. I stay near to there, those two roads, you know. I

stay number three. So I got one, two, three four,

stations. So, the Japanese come, maybe seven or eight

o’clock at night. They’re walking, they go this way to the

Texas Road, they walk from there. They got that grass.

The grass is noisy, like ch-ch-ch. So maybe these two

guys, somebody watching, they turn around and running.

Okay, go this way and there’s the highway.

BP: Beach Road?

GC: No that’s Texas Road, to the micro Toyota, go like this.

So they run here and go around here. So this, this guard

say, “Hold it!”

BP: The American guard?

GC: No, this Chamorro. Chamorro and American, they call, “Hold

it!” No stop. So, they shoot, this guard you know, they

shoot. So one is strike here, from the back, because they

shoot from the back. That one is died in the highway. So,

the other one, they shoot here.

BP: On the right thigh.

GC: The thigh.

BP: The thigh, the back of the thigh.

GC: Right over here and some place the arm, the bullet.

BP: On the forearm.

GC: Like this and the bullet stay here. So this one is running

and he go inside the eggplant plantation. They’re hiding

because they cannot move anymore because they came. Okay,

so after then, --

(break in audio)

BP: Okay, so you’re saying the second Japanese soldier was

wounded in the leg and the arm and then they captured him

in an eggplant field.

GC: Yes. So, Marines come and take the spotlight to look for

this other one, because he say that I got two but one has

already died and one has run away inside to the eggplant

plantation. So we catch this guy and bring to the G4

Hospital.

BP: The G4 Hospital, now where was that?

GC: Now it’s the courthouse.

BP: Oh, the courthouse.

GC: This is before we call G4 Hospital, civilian hospital. So,

he’s very mad to policemen because we pass outside the

wall, to go into the galley, because they pass during the

day in the galley, hospital galley. So this Japanese

looking outside there he say not the American guy shoot me,

Chamorro soldier shoot me.

BP: Now that Japanese soldier said that?

GC: Yeah, they say exactly…

BP: He said it was a Chamorro.

GC: Chamorro soldier shoot me, he say.

BP: Who did he say that to?

GC: They’re talking to the nurse.

BP: Oh, the nurse.

GC: So, we can see him, we pass that ward. Then, after then,

they prepared everything and they send to Japan, this man

home.

BP: Did you ever talk to him?

GC: I don’t think so, we talk.

BP: Now, this is before Captain Oba surrendered?

GC: Captain Oba?

BP: Yeah, this is before Captain Oba surrendered?

GC: I think Oba is later.

BP: Captain Oba was still in the mountains.

GC: Still in the mountain.

BP: Okay. Were the Japanese civilians at Camp Susupe, were

they considered dangerous, if they tried to kill American

soldiers, did they try to do anything bad?

GC: No. He said the camps, they don’t do that.

BP: Okay, now was this the first time Japanese soldiers tried

to sneak into the camp, or did they like go and try to

steal food from the Army or the Marines?

GC: Before they killed that guy, they are going in, out, in,

out.

BP: So you knew this was happening.

GC: Yes, because this over -- stay in Takayama, we caught one

month, they stealing Army supply, something, and bring to

the camp. At that time, nobody know.

BP: They didn’t know he was doing it.

GC: After the letter from the lady, after that, we found that

one. Before that, they go in, out, in, out.

BP: Okay, now does this name sound familiar to you; Jesus

Guerrero?

GC: Jesus Guerrero, yes. The chief of police and investigator.

BP: Did you know him personally?

GC: Yes.

BP: And what was your opinion of him?

GC: Well, good for Japanese type you know?

BP: Good for the Japanese.

GC: Not this time, like Japanese, very like, say you lie,

something you stealing and they just lie. So the Japanese

police, they put water in here.

BP: The hose?

GC: Yes. Then they say you start speaking.

BP: So, Jesus Guerrero, he did that? Did he do that to anybody

you know?

GC: Only for Japanese, not for Chamorro.

BP: They did that to Japanese?

GC: Soldiers. Sometimes you’re a soldier and you go, you hide,

you stay in civilian area. You’re not supposed to be,

because you’re a soldier, you’ve got soldier stockade.

BP: Okay now, but Jesus Guerrero, he would do this water

treatment to Japanese?

GC: Yes.

BP: They let it --

GC: But not everybody, just a strong liar.

FEMALE: (inaudible).

BP: Now, did he ever mistreat Chamorros? Did he beat

Chamorros?

GC: No, no.

BP: Okay, now was he one of the interpreters who went to Guam?

GC: Yeah, the Japanese sending down one day, to do that.

BP: Now I read someplace that even after the war, when

[Gomori?] came back to Saipan.

GC: Yes.

BP: That there were people on Saipan who were still afraid of

him.

FEMALE: Yes, because he was very (inaudible).

BP: Was he still in the police then?

GC: Yes. Sometimes he can wear the uniform and they used shirt

down and dirty clothes, detective, and go around to find

the troublemaker. Areas to find these guys.

BP: The two Japanese that you helped capture in 1953, did you

learn anything about them, like where they came from or how

they survived for eight years?

GC: My friend, Japanese, I think maybe he comes to collect the

bones, group, so he tell me these two guys supposed to

surrender together, but he lose even before they surrender,

these people, those two soldiers missing. So another group

is going to see American, that these two guys, they -- I

don’t know why they’re missing from the group, those two

guys.

BP: Now, I don’t understand. They were missing when?

FEMALE: They sneak out when Obu, after he surrendered.

BP: Okay, so this is still during the war you mean?

FEMALE: No, this is right after the war.

GC: Oba, the --

(break in audio)

BP: Okay, so they were -- those two that surrendered in 1953

were with Oba, but they snuck away when Oba surrendered.

GC: Yes.

BP: In 1945, okay. Did you ever find out how they survived for

eight years? Did they steal food from the farms?

FEMALE: They were stealing everything, stealing from the

farms, the Chamorro farms.

BP: (inaudible).

GC: Already, some --

FEMALE: (inaudible).

GC: Castro or [Babauta?], to the farm. So these two guys are

going nighttime, to looking something to eat.

BP: Well didn’t these families, didn’t they suspect that maybe

there were Japanese?

FEMALE: Nobody suspect.

BP: Nobody suspected?

GC: No, no.

BP: Well, who did they suspect of stealing?

GC: Even not the example, you could pursue that today, and you

come tomorrow, the sugar is no more. Who take this? Maybe

somebody come and stealing. So, nobody is expecting the

snipers.

BP: So nobody, nobody knew there were Japanese there all that

time.

GC: No.

FEMALE: After they found them, my father mentioned oh, the

guys, they come to my ranch.

GC: So, one day before catch these two guys, somebody looking

for coconut crop that night. They translate the people,

coconut crop. The guys say the Japanese; they throw a rock

to these people because these two Japanese stay on top of

the rock. So they throw a rock to, to the people is

looking at coconut crop. One day before.

BP: Were these people scared?

GC: They were scared, maybe.

BP: They didn’t know what it was.

FEMALE: (inaudible).

GC: So, that guy talked to me, last night somebody threw a rock

to us, you know? They looking for coconut crop.

BP: Now you were saying, when you were in As Teo, there was a

Japanese field hospital in the valley there, and the

Americans shelled, the American ships. Were very many

Japanese --

GC: I stay in As Teo before I move into --

BP: Yes, but I want to get -- the Japanese field hospital.

GC: No, there’s not the house, that’s only ten.

BP: The field hospital.

GC: The [non-English].

BP: Okay, now the question is, the American shelled, they threw

shells in it, were very many Japanese in that area killed?

GC: I don’t know if they kill many Japanese, because I don’t go

there.

BP: You didn’t go there.

GC: Because only the plane, like the private plane now.

BP: Yeah, those little small planes.

GC: They, maybe three, four times, in As Teo.

BP: Okay.

GC: So after then, go direct to the ship maybe, or I don’t know

how many they do or you know. So, after then, they shoot

from the ship, they strike.

BP: But you didn’t go down afterwards.

GC: I’m not going, because that night, we’re moving.

BP: Okay, now you said in Tanapag, there was a Joaquin, Joaquin

Sablan, who was killed in Tanapag.

GC: Yes.

BP: That was the one who was killed by tank or machinegun?

GC: A tank machinegun, they shoot like that one.

BP: Did he have a nickname?

GC: Joaquin “Oma” Sablan. Oma.

BP: How do you spell that?

GC: Joaquin.

FEMALE: Oma.

BP: Oma. O-M-A?

FEMALE: O-M-A.

BP: O-M-A.

GC: Joaquin Oma.

BP: Joaquin, and that’s J-O-A-Q-U-I-N.

GC: Oma.

BP: Okay, the baby you found, you said you gave him to a

Japanese woman in Camp Susupe.

FEMALE: No.

GC: No.

FEMALE: We give to this lady who carried to Camp Susupe. But

then after, she gave this baby to -- she have, give to the

wife of the --

GC: She is married to Chamorro.

FEMALE: They know she is the sister of the mother.

GC: The mother of Mitch, the boy’s mother’s sister is in --

BP: Okay, so that’s what I wanted to clear up, get cleared up

then. The adopted mother of Mitch was actually his aunt.

FEMALE: Yes.

GC: The mother’s sister, aunt. Because I know this, before the

war, any time I go to the barbershop, Mitch’s mother have

business, a barbershop.

BP: Just before the war.

GC: Before the war, I go there. That’s why I know that Mitch’s

mother’s sister in the camp.

BP: Do you remember their names?

GC: I don’t know the name, but the business is barbershop.

BP: And it was in Chacha?

GC: No, Garapan.

BP: In Garapan.

FEMALE: The name of the kid’s mother, the Japanese name,

[Satcha?].

GC: [Satcha?].

BP: Just like [Satcha?] Natayama.

GC: [Satcha.].

BP: Okay. Okay, you were telling me last time too, during the

Trust Territory days, you were not allowed to travel. Does

that mean you were not allowed to leave Saipan, or you were

not -- what do you mean, you were not allowed to travel?

GC: That time is Navy time.

BP: Navy time.

GC: Navy time, very hard to go into someplace.

BP: Could you go to Guam?

GC: No.

BP: Could you go to Japan or the United States?

GC: No. At that time, --

(break in audio)

BP: You didn’t have enough money. But now the Navy times, what

years exactly were the Navy years? That was 194--

FEMALE: After ’44, before the first in ’45, was 1962.

GC: So, ’48 still is the Navy time.

FEMALE: So maybe ’61, that time I think the Navy moved out.

BP: So it was the Navy from 1944 until 1962? Because the CIA

was right here until 1963, right?

GC: I think that 1953, so until then, the Interior Department.

FEMALE: Interior Department, the Navy.

GC: Navy again.

BP: So it was the Navy and then the Interior Department came in

what year, 1949?

FEMALE: No, that was --

GC: This is 1953 is Mr. Hedges, Interior Department.

FEMALE: I don’t know. I just know in 1951, the government

issue, and (inaudible) very poor.

BP: So part of it was that the Navy didn’t want people to leave

the island, is that it?

FEMALE: We have nothing to go anywhere.

BP: But if you had family in Guam, could you go visit your

family?

FEMALE: Okay, we have to -- yes, like my mom, when she --

everybody is to go to a holiday for the summer, go husband

up in Guam, to jail. Okay, that time when we go to Guam,

okay, when we have to go to Guam to get the tickets, we go

on this island, Komar, at Guam, before we purchase our

ticket.

BP: Did you fly to Guam or take a boat?

FEMALE: Yes, we have a Navy plane.

GC: Navy plane.

FEMALE: And this is only coming twice a week.

BP: Okay.

END OF AUDIO FILE