University of Illinois at Springfield

Norris L Brookens Library

Archives/Special Collections

Paul Sullivan Memoir

SU55. Sullivan, Paul b. 1939 Interview and memoir 1 tape, 90 mins., 28 pp.

HISTORIC SITES IN CENTRAL ILLINOIS Paul Sullivan, curator of the Abraham Lincoln Home National Historic Site, discusses the home, room decorations, 1860's furnishings, rooms, Mary Todd Lincoln, Lincoln's family and friends, and the Lincoln Home neighborhood.

Interview by Mary Louise Connelly McCarthy, 1980 OPEN See collateral file: interviewer's notes and Land of Lincoln book featuring photos of the Lincoln Home.

Archives/Special Collections LIB 144 University of Illinois at Springfield One University Plaza, MS BRK 140 Springfield IL 62703-5407

© 1980, University of Illinois Board of Trustees PREFACE

This manuscript is the product of audio tape recorded interviews con- ducted by Mary Louise Connelly McCarthy, while pursuing her Masters Degree, at Sangamon State University in Springfield, Illinois. It is prepared for the Oral History Office and was conducted by her during the Fall semester of 1980. Mrs. Gay Ruble Piatchek transcribed the tapes and the tapes were edited by Mrs. McCarthy.

Mr. Paul Sullivan has lived most of his life as a resident of Spring- field, Illinois. He was born in Taylorville, Illinois. Mr. Sullivan is the curator of the Lincoln Home National Historic Site. He is tremendously knowledgeable concerning all the artifacts at the Abraham Lincoln Home. His duties include a11 the phases of presentation, preservation, and storage of all the furnishings, crystal, table, chairs, etc . . . . He cleans the curtains and carpeting in the "old way." He handled the home much as it would have been run in the mid-1800's. Mr. Sullivan is a former educator and uses many of his speaking skills and his general knowledge in his role as curator. He is a personable gentleman who is well liked among the staff of Lincoln Home. His personal interests include theatre production, and he is a qualified director in the theatre arts. Also, he is interested in quality antiques and their collection.

Readers of the oral history memoir should bear in mind that it is a transcript of the spoken word, and that the interviewer, narrator, and editor sought to preserve the informal conversational style that is inherent in such historical sources. Sangamon State University is not responsible for the factual accuracy of the memoir, nor the views expressed therein; these are for the reader to judge.

The manuscript may be read, quoted, and cited freely. It may not be reproduced in whole or in part by any means, electronic or mechanical without permission in writing from the Oral History Office, Sangamon State University, Springfield, Illinois, 62708.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan, November 1980, Springfield, Illinois.

Q. We're speaking to Mr. Paul Sullivan, who is the curator of the Lincoln Home National Historic Site. Good morning, Mr. Sullivan.

A. Good morning.

Q. Would you tell us a little bit about your early childhood, where you were born, what town and what state?

A. Well, I was born just thirty miles from here, in Taylorville, Illinois. And my family moved here when I was about four years old and Springfield has basically been my home since that time. There was a short period of time when I lived in Chicago and California, but Springfield is home.

Q. That's wonderful. So often we're all transported to different places and they become our homes. Can you tell us something about your early childhood?

A. Well, actually, I grew up not very far Erom the Lincoln Home, and while growing up, I visited the Lincoln Home on many occasions. And sometimes I think I was a little bit of a pest to the people who ran the Lincoln Home and I think sometimes today that if they knew I was responsible for the Home today, they might not be too easy.

Q. Just horrified that that little boy was now in charge. Is there someone in your childhood who influenced you the most? Perhaps a teacher or a friend af the family?

A. Well, there probably would be many people. I grew up very clos to the church, Sts. Peter and Paul, which is about six blocks Erom i here, and I went to grade school there and the old school is no longer standing. It was one of the oldest in Springfield, and it was torn down to build a new one, however, that school in a way, I physically remains close to me because the bricks from the school were used to construct what is now the Educational Center here in the Park. So, I can still get a feel for it, and I think that the education that I got there was very influential in my life, so I would have to credit the whole school and the church there with being very important part of my family's life and of my own.

Q. Was there one particular priest that you were very fond of, or one particular sister?

A. We were scared to death of the sisters. Mother Joseph was the

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 2

principal and my eighth grade teacher was a very influential person in the whole school system. She celebrated her golden jubilee shoraly after I graduated, and she had been at the school there for most of that time and she was driven, as was most of the school actually. It was kind of unusual when Bishop OIConner was made Bishop and he toured all of the schools in his diocese and he came to St. Peter and Paul's and he went down the list meeting the studeets, and all of a sudden he came to my name, and he said, "Sullivan, what's an Irishman like you doing in a Dutch penitentiary?" But, Mother Joseph was really a marvelous person. She scared the dickens out of everyone, but she, I can remember one time in particular when our fifth grade teacher became ill and they divided the fifth grade up. Half went into the seventh grade and half went into the eighth grade classroom. Mother Joseph would be teaching eighth graders, and the fifth graders were supposed to be studying, and I had finished what I was supposed to be doing, and wasn't profitably occupying my time, and she caught me out of the corner of her eye, and she said, "Mr. Sullivan, don't you have anything to do?" And I said, "No, Sister, I'm finished with everything." "You don't have anything to occupy your time? It seetps to me that your class didn't know the Memorare and were supposed to know it. When I get over there, if you can't say that Memorare from heart perfectly, then you're really going to catch it." My older sister who was in the eighth grade at that time, she told me later that she was horrified that when it came time for me to stand up and say that prayer, she was afraid that I w@uldnlt know it. But I knew it. We just had been exposed to it, so we had to learn it, when we moved into the parish, my sister already had been in the first grade in a public school in our little town that we came from, and she had to catch up on studying her catechism. And we learned it at the same time, I was right there when my father and my mother were helping her learn it, so we learned it at the same time. And then when the class was a little bit slow, the teacher had me come in and show them up because I knew my catechism already, and I was only about four year old. You read the Baltimore catechism from question one right thro1 gh, and we said the question as well as the answer. You knew the book! 4 -- 311 the way through. Q. Complete memorization. Where did you go to high school? ! A. I went to the Catholic boys high school here in Springfield. I was called Cathedral Boys High School, and it since has been. Ihejve built a new high school and it's now called Griffin High School. And, I then went to the Junior College that we have here, so again, that was the Ursuline nuns, and I would say that high school was kind of a limbo period, not much happened there as far as influence. The only real strong influence in high school was Father Speakerman, who was the band instructor, and when we went in the freshman year in the home room, Father Nolan said, "Okay, everybody stand up." He said, "~verybodygoing out for football sit down. Everybody going out £01 basketball, sit down. Everybody going out for baseball, sit down, those who are left standing, go up you're going to join the band,"

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 3

Q. That was rather a volunteer service, like the army.

A. Right. And we went up to the band room and Father Speakerman , said, 'Yiave you studied any instrument?" '"0." Would you like to play an instrument?" "Well, yes." What would you like to play?" "I said I think I'd like to play trumpet." He said, "Well, we don't need any trumpet players, we need clarinet players, and you're a little guy, he said you can play clarinet."

Q. That's how you started.

A. That's how 1 started. 1 Q. That's marvelous. Was the Junior College S.C.T. by any chance?

A. Yes.

Q. Both of my children attended, well no, my daughter went there for a year or so.

A. Well, I think it's a very good school, and . . .

Q. It's beautifully situated, you know the buildings, the hillside, and everything. Very pretty. Can you tell us how you got interested in the Park Service? Was that right after Junior College?

A. Well no, I taught school from fifteen years before I came-to work for the Park Service.

Q. How wonderful. What grade, what level?

A. I've taught everything from fifth grade through the university.

Q. Oh, my, and that was for fifteen years.

A. Right, mainly high school. I . . . The largest bulk of the ti e, I taught English, speech and theater. t Q. Oh, terrific. In the Chicago area or Springfield area?

A. Well, both, I've taught in Springfield schools and just outside of Springfield, and I also taught at Proviso, which is just outside of Chicago . . . Q. Yes, it's a fine school . . . Huge.

A. Yes, and it was quite a change going from Springfield-type schoqls to Proviso which had about three thousand six hundred students at tqat time . I I Q. Did they have their own theater when you taught theater? Were you

1I I Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS 1. S.C.I. is Springfield College in Illinois. 1 Paul Sullivan 4

able to work through a school theater, or did you use little theate$?

A. Well, combinations, I taught theater on the high school level, and I worked a great deal with college theater. Here in Springfield with Lincoln Land Community College and Sangamon State University, and then did semi-professional work in the theater basically in the Springfield area.

Q. Oh, delightful. hat's wonderful. Are you working with summer stock or anything now with the operetta?

A. No, I have kind of put theater on the back shelf, so to speak aqd really have since I've come to work for the Park Service, this had provided me with a new interest, and there's ample opportunity to do a lot of extra studying and working in connection with this kind of field, so that's mainly what I've been interested in.

Q. How long with the Park Service now?

A. Just a little over a year and a half.

Q. Oh, then you're comparatively new in this field? Had you always wanted to be a curator or that type of thing that appeals to you?

A. I never thought of it beyond . . . This was just a job that happened to come up and it was at the right place and the right time, so to speak, and it seems however that a lot of things in my past and in my training have been very beneficial to me in doing this kind of work. I suppose that I was fortunate in that my age, my family, kind of were in somewhat of a transition period. There were many things in my upbringing that gave me background needed for doing this particular job. Things, for instance, I can still remember from my childhood when we took the rugs out and beat them with a rug beater once in the spring to really get them clean.

Q. My husband's family is the same way.

A. And my mother and grandmother did a lot of things that I have to do today, which not many people have to do like taking care of line , starching them, ironing them, stretching curtains on window stretch s and things like that and all of those things have been things which have to be done in the Lincoln Home because of the period. A lot of those things are kinds of things that a lot of people today don't+ know too much about.

Q. That's so true. Each of the curtains have to be hand-washed then, don't they?

A. Well, they don't really, most of the curtains that we have now are modern reproductions with modern fabrics and they can be washed,; but it took a while to figure out the best way to do them. We

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 5

experimented a lot with different ways, well, some of them had to be stretched on stretchers, but we don't use them any more because of the work that's involved with it, and it just so happened that my grandmother, I went to my grandmother, and sure enough, she had a pair of curtain stretchers.

Q. Fantastic. It's so hard to find anything like that now.

Could we sort of go from room to room mentally and talk about the various artifacts in the Lincoln Home? Maybe starting with the living room, I don't know, but as a lay person coming in Lincoln's Home and having a little knowledge of Mary Todd, the parlor is the only room to me that seem a little off-kilter because of the darkness of it, the black horsehair sofa and the chairs and everything else. It strikes me that it should look a little more like the Edwards parlor with the roses and the greens. Would you like to tell us something about that?

A. Well, I think it . . . Since the federal government came into the Lincoln Home site in 1972, we've been involved in doing research to determine just how accurately the present presentation of the home is, visually, and its decorative arts. And we of course have the basis of three illustrations which were done in 1860 by the Frank Leslie illustrated newspaper and those turned up again in 1929. From that point on, they've tried to copy as closely as possible decorating the rooms according to those illustrations. Of course, the illustra- tions are in black and white, and you have an artist coming in doing a sketch. Then you have an engraver taking that sketch and making a plate for the newspaper, so you have a couple of influences there which make it rather subjective, and it's not like a color photograph of a room so those have to be interpreted. Now, they have been interpreted in a couple of ways. It's been interpreted that there was striped wallpaper on the wall, and the colors, it's difficult t@ say what they were, it doesn't seem that any research has been done nothing. They haven't gone down and stripped the walls to see if any original paper is there or not. I tend to think that the paper is a little bit dark. The horsehair furniture, there's not much yo I can do about that. That's black and that was fashionable, and it appears that the pieces were covered in horsehair.

Q. I can see that. The color is the thing that distresses me.

A. The black horsehair? Well, that was the most common color and horsehair is available in other colors, but much more rarely and I don't know that the Lincolns were quite in the income category that they would have had things a little bit more elaborate, although there are contradictory bits of evidence that come up every once in awhile. I can think of a couple of cases, in particular, where the Ford Museum in Dearborn [Michigan] claims to have two pieces of fur- niture which are Lincoln associated pieces. Which are much more

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 6

exquisite pieces, they are better pieces in laminated rosewood, very elegant, much more stylish than what most of the pieces are that we have. Hawever the jJL.wtratFons don't show these pieces, they are a table, a marble topped tete-a-tete table or center table much like the one we have in the sitting room, and however, the illustration in the sitting room doesn't show as fancy a one as the one in Dearborn, Mich- igan. And that would be the most typical place where it would have been. The other piece of furniture is a ladies' reclining couch which of course would be a bedroom piece of furniture.

Q. A chaise lounge, yes.

A. Yes, similar to that, so I don't know, I . . . It's kind of diffi- cult. We don't have exact records of what the Lincolns had, and it does take some interpretation. The carpeting was reproduced for the parlor from the Leslie illustrations, so the patterns are similar, again, the colors are typical of the time, again we don't . . . Q. Rose and white is it?

A. It's beige, kind of a dirty color. It's not a very attractive color, and it's also, I think that perhaps the care of it has not helped it either. I don't think it was cared for in exactly the right way, of course it's been down now for about thirty years.

Q. Oh, that's remarkable that it's holding at all.

A. Then the window treatments are subject to interpretation also. I think from the illustration, it looks as if there was probably a brocade, a patterned brocade, which could liven it up, in addition to that the woodwork has been painted and the earliest evidence we have is in 1888. A blueprint that was done in the home after it was turned over to the state of Illinois, and that's a very early blue- print, there aren't that many blueprints from that time period, and that blueprint, it shows that the mantles and the doors are the natural walnut, and the baseboards and the window trim are painted a light color. I I Q. During Lincoln's time? i

A. We don't know that that was during Lincoln's time, that was in 1888. And we don't have any evidence other than the illustrations from Lincoln's time and written records of how people have described the inside of the house. When the reporters came, for instance, and, that's quite a mixed bag as to what they had to report, and so we have to kind of put all of these little pieces together and of course the puzzle is far from complete in its pieces. So that leaves it open to interpretation as to just how it should be done, and my personal feeling about the home is that a number of things could be done to . . .

Q. Add some warmth?

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan

A. Right.

Q. That's the only thing that I feel, the parlor just doesn't seem warm enough, it doesn't seem family oriented.

A. Well, of course it wasn't.

Q. Oh, they had the equivalent of a family room on the other side.

A. And the parlors really were a very special part of the lifestyle which we aren't too familiar with today, some very formal. And so it has to have that air about it. And it's not a room in which people were meant to be comfortable and furniture designed at that time wa$ not comfortable in the way that we think it should be, and it reflected a certain amount of stiffness in the people. And so, I think you still have to have that, we can't go into a historic house museum and change things according to our whim or fancies so there are things which we find unpleasant and yet we have to leave them that way.

Q. I see, could you tell me about the candelabras on the mantlepiece shelf? Are they pretty much authenticated, the same type?

A. Yes, they are the same type. They were a very popular type, and they mainly are girandoles, and that's a rather . . .

9. Would you spell that?

A. Yes, it's G-I-R-A-N-D-0-L-E. And that simply means that it's an elaborate candelabra with prisms. The prisms are there to help reflect light and to be much more attractive and in a few of the sets, they have figures, and the figures are of Robinson Crusoe and Friday, let's see . . . I think Pocahantas, they think Miles Standish . . . Q. From history and from classics? i A. Right. And these were very often the subjects of artwork.

Q. Were they imported from France or made here in America?

A. No, they were made in America.

Q. But they had what sounds like a French name.

A. Yes, it's French of course was the language of diplomacy at the time, and we tend to think 05 this style, this period and style of furniture as Victorian, and we think that the name was an influence from England, but it wasn't, it was from France. The furniture and style really should be called second Baroque, and then that starts about 1840. Now the period just previous to that is Empire, which of course again is French, and they would pronounce it "ahm-peer." And, that's a much simpler, mare classic style. And then with the

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 8

second Baroque, you get into the carvings, the moldings that are elaborately carved, a lot of that was being made available to middle class people because of the advent of steam-powered machinery. And it's very important to understand that the beginnings of the industrial revolution affected the lifestyle in the home a great deal at the time. Thirty years earlier, the Lincoln home would not have been finished the way that it happens to be now and was at the time the Lincolns were there because the middle class was able to have all of these finishings, carpets, wallpapers, draperies, linens, all these things that were made available in a type of mass production, so to speak. We wouldn't think of it as such today, but to them, it certainly was, it was a revolution, it was a very tremendous revolution which changed the lifestyles a great deal.

Q. Oh yes, it would have been cane chairs and simple little tables, and things like that at the time. I mean, had it been thirty years earlier.

A. When you think of Abraham and the changes that came about in his physical surroundings in his lifetime. When you go through the home and you see one room which is indicated as ~braharn'sroom, and that room is typically well, it's almost larger than what the typical one room log cabin would be which Abraham spent half of his life in with whole families. At one point, I think there were as many as eight people living together in a one room log cabin, and in fact, the first log cabin that his father built in Illinois only had three walls, and so they spent the whole winter of 1830; it was a bad winter also, living in this three-sided structure.

Q. You wonder how they survived when we're a little chilled if the furnace goes down. Now, the room adjacent to the parlor is called, was called, what in that day? It was Mary's parlor, wasn't it? It has more of a family feel. Was it the ladies' parlor, perhaps?

A. Well, some people have indicated that to be the case, but there really is a double room, and from all that we are able to tell right now from the studying that we have done, it seems that it always was the double room with the folding doors that could close it off. So people think that when the house was originally built, it was a cottage and that the doors would not have been there, and . . . Q. They might have closed off a bedroom even in that day . . ,

A. It might have,we just don't know, we really don't know, and we can't say, we can only speculate as to what they might have done, if they used the house differently, we don't know. We only know how it was used in 1860, so we really have to stick to that, we can specula but that's all it would be is just speculation. The house is really not large enough, or the parlors are not large enough to really say that they would separate the ladies from the men and have the men's parlor and the ladies parlor.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 9

Q. I thought perhaps if political discussion was going on, Abraham, and his friends, his lawyer friends and his politican friends, that perhaps the ladies would be having coffee in the other room, that type of thing.

A. hat's possible, however, reporters have written that they inter- viewed Mr. Lincoln in the back parlor and called it his library. And indicating that the secretary was there, and it was filled with law books. And another wrote that there was a centered table with books and papers. There were the two globes that were there, the celestial globe as well as the terrestial globe, so it gives it a rather academic type library feel to it. Now, it just SO happens that today we have two upholstered pieces of furniture that were not done in horsehair, and they happen to be pink and the material color, so that gives it the feminine feel, but there's no indication that that should be the case. The Leslie illustration of course doesn't show that, so the decision Lo do that and to present it in a rather feminine approach or feel again was something that was done subjectively by the people who were responsible for presenting the house. I think that's led to misinterpretation of . . . Q. That particular room. In the hallway, you have I believe Mr. Lincoln's hat on the hatrack, and then I think there's a shawl, I'm not sure, and then a bootjack, and a large mirror, so that he could check his appearance . . .

A. Well, there's a mirror built into the hatrack. The hatracks were typical hall furnishings because not having closets. Mr. ~incoln's hat of course was made famous by him and the shawl also, men didn't have sweaters, so men wore shawls as well as ladies, and it was con- sidered to be a typical outdoor as well as indoor piece of clothing. So there are pictures of Mr. Lincoln, they tell that Mr. Lincoln would roll his scarf up, and his shawl up, and have it wound around his neck and it looked like a big snake.

Q. I think it gives a nice feeling especially with the bootjack, I heard some fathers explaining to their sons what it is, on the way by, because nobody of course uses something that looks like that an more, and it's a nice original piece to have up there.

A. Of course, you know there's a question as to whether the bootjack should be there. As opposed to maybe by the back door. Did Mr. Lincoln come in the front door or did he come in the back door or if a guest came in, you didn't have your guest take his boots off, you just put up with the person's . . . Q. The snow and . . . A. Right. Bootscrapers were generally close to the front door and; the outside and, but you wouldn't ask a man coming in to take his 1 shoes off, and you wouldn't ask them to take their shoes off and thqn

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 10

ask them into this fancy room of the house. It just wouldn't be do~e. A gentleman caller also he didn't hang his hat on the hat rack, he always kept his hat with him inside next to him when he sat down in the parlor.

Q. Oh, did he really? He carried it right in, he didn't leave it in the hall?

A. Only the man of the house would hang up his hat on the tree.

Q. I see. And then, I think the kitchen is wonderful. It has a grand feeling. Now, are you the magic person who creates the pies and the homemade bread that appears in the kitchen?

A. Right. That's a touch I think which is important. The kitchen is the most difficult room actually to present. Many things are set out which ordinarily wouldn't be out, but if they aren't out, then they can't be seen. So you have to make a decision as to whether or not you want something to be seen or not. And you have to make a lot of decisions like that in the house. A hause appears differently in different seasons, in an area of the country like this and yet we can't do that, if we would take the stoves out in the summertime, for instance. Those people who only come in the summertime would never see the stoves that they had to use in the wintertime for heating, and so we can't do that. Typically, rugs or floor coverings would be taken up in the summertime and the bare floors would be there, and we don't do that either.

Q. Can you tell us, in the kitchen, some of the things that were used at the time of Mary and Abraham and that are not used now?

A. Well, I think that today we don't have as much use for scales in the kitchen. Some people do that are keeping track of the number of ounces that they're eating, but at that time, things didn't come in pre-measured packages so when cooking was done, things had to be , weighed out generally from large bulk containers. There is a sugar1 barrel under the stairway, and that's something we wouldn't be fami iar with. There's a dough box in which dough was placed to raise, to k ep the flies away from it, but give it space to raise, and that was t generally kept fairly close to the stove because it would be desirable to have the warmth to help the bread to raise. I don't think we as conrmanly have mortars and pestles or spices and herbs hanging to dry.

Q. Although they're coming back . . .

A. Yes, and the cookstove itself of course was something that we would find that we wouldn't want to exchange our microwaves for.

Q. Probably not. Is it iron?

A. Oh, it's cast iron. It takes about six men to lift it the least bit.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan

Q. Oh yes, and it's wood burning?

A. Right. We just got, I was really happy about getting a stove plate to put under the kitchen stove. There wasn't one there and I said, 'Well, for heaven's sakes, the kitchen stove was the hottest one in the house, and they would have a stoveplate under that for sure." So I was able to convince the powers that be to have one specially made for us, so that's something that's been added to the kitchen since I've been there. There is no running water, of course. The sink which is there, is a dry sink. It's zinc lined.

Q. Do they have . . . I don't recall, do they have a water pump, a hand pump?

A. No, not in the house, no indoor system at all, water had to be carried in from the pumps in the back yard. There are two pumps, the first one is to a cistern, that would collect the soft water, the rainwater and that could be used in washing and cleaning. And then the other, the well, and that water which was supposedly pure would be used for consumption.

Q. Oh, I see, yes, and then of course they had the outdoor facilities at the end of the garden.

A. Right. Before we leave the kitchen now, I think something which we don't interpret enough is the fact that what is called the service porch beyond the dutch door in the kitchen, and then the pantry, were really the active and important parts of the kitchen. So when people think of the kitchen as being small, they don't take those two areas into consideration.

Q. Were they used often in winter?

A. Yes, not as much in the wintertime, but they were used, and the pantry would have many of the things that are out on display in the kitchen, would be in the pantry when they weren't being used. Thing such as washing things, for washing clothes or things like the butte churn maybe would not be in the kitchen all of the time. Now, two i, pieces of furnishings are important in connection with the kitchen: the ice box and a pie safe for cooling down baked goods would be kept in the pantry away from the hot stove. And, of course, it would be counter-productive to have those close together, so those pieces of kitchen furnishings would be in the pantry a11 the time. I think of course we aren't too familiar with pie safes today, we don't use any- thing like chat.

Q. It's a funny expression, is it because one of the boys in the family might make off with a pie?

A. Yes. It's interesting that you mention that, because at one poipt,

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 12

when Mary was planning a party, and she had the pie safe filled with the baked goods that she had prepared for the party, the boys invited everyone in the neighborhood in for an early party, and they wiped out the pie safe, and so after that Mary had to have a lock on it.

Q. How perfect, and how typical of the Lincoln boys.

A. Right, they were rascals. The two youngest ones especially, now Robert didn't think that he was, but he had forgotten that he was like that as a youngster.

Q. Yes. Then, around to the side, that is the equivalent of a family room. What was that called?

A. The sitting room.

Q. The sitting room, and then the boys' hoops and their toys and their little horses and trucks and things like that are out. That gives it a lovely feeling, I think.

A. Yes, but it's interesting because it does provide some bit of contradictions in a way. If we're portraying 1860 in the furnishing of the house, for instance, the youngest boy, Tad, is seven years old at that time, and he's a little bit old to be playing with some of the things that are there. That seem a little bit more oriented to the younger infant child; things like the rocking horse in the sitting room definitely would not be something that wauld be there in 1860. There are two little tables and chairs in the boys1 room upstairs which are far too little for the boys at ages ten and seven. And, so, it in a way gives a warmer, more familial type of atmosphere to the house, but it's up to debate as to whether or not they should be there.

Q. I see, but I do think that it gives a lovely feeling when you come around and you realize that it is a family home. It isn't just to the president himself the father of the family his whole life 1i here as a complete unit. I skipped the dining room and I never 1 should have because it's a lovely, lovely room. Can you tell us i about the different parts of the furniture and the chinaware?

A. Well, the pieces that were selected for display in the house are somewhat based on what we believe the Lincolns had. And then in addition to that, there are pieces which simply have been donated to the Home and they may or may not be appropriate to be in the house, and the dining room is no exception to that. Probably the three most impressive pieces in the dining room are pieces that shouldn't be there. And that's the cruet set, the silver and crystal cruet set which I believe dates more to 18801s, because of style and features in it. And it's also a very elegant piece which I'm not so sure the Lincolns would have had quite that elegant a piece.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 13

Q. Oh, but her family was quite comfortable. Couldn't it have corn? as a gift: from her sisters or her father?

A. We don't seem to have much record of her family providing much of anything. Mary's mother died when Mary was a young girl, and her father remarried and had a whole new family, so I think there are a total of fifteen children, So although he was wealthy, when things were doled out, they had to go a long way. Mary's father did give Mary an eighty acre farm southwest of Springfield, during a time when he came to visit. It was the first year that they were married, and after ~obert'sbirth, and of course, Robert had been named Robert Todd, aft-er Mary's father,and that seems to be the only significant thing which was given to her. Of course, her marriage came as a bit1 of a shock to the family, and they were . . . They didn't have much time to prepare for it, so supposedly, the wedding cake was still hot when it was being iced.

Q. In the presentation that the young Rangers gave on Saturday, they brought out that point, where they had done the letters from the various members of the family afterwards talking about the wedding, the rehearsal, the wedding itself and the reception, and that the cake was still very warm, and we had a duplication of Mary Todd's own cake.

A. Items in the dining room that perhaps shouldn't be there. The calendar clock causes a great deal of interest. People, when they realize that the concept of a calendar clock goes back so far. Of course, it doesn't really go back to 1860. That clock was patented in 1885, and we don't have an accurate history on it, but I feel that it probably was a piece which had belonged to one of the families that took care of the house and came into the house at that time, and has simply been in the house for a long, long time, and if it's removed, then a lot of people are going to say, Where is the clock?" In fact, at one point, one of the people who was responsible for taking care of the house stopped the clock at the time of Lincoln's death, which was seven-twenty and would give that as part of the i interpretation that the clock stopped at the time of Lincoln's death/.

Q. Oh, that's very effective, if not true.

A. And there are people today who come through the home saying, "Where is the clock that stopped at the hour of Lincoln's death?"

Q. Do you just carry it on, and say, "Oh, the clock is there,llrather than affirming, or . . .

A. Oh, we tell people the truth. That was a very interesting bit of romance that was not true. And some of these stories crop up about the Lincoln home and they're fanciful but . . .

Q. Do you believe any of them? Almost everyone that finds out that

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 14

doing this on the Lincoln Home, ask if anyone has ever been aware of the presence of the former occupants of the home.

A. Well, I suppose I must not have very good E.S.P. or relations with the other world, because I never, and I've been in the house practically at every hour of the day and night because we have had nighttime projects which I've been in the house until three or four o'clock in the morning, and so I haven't sensed anything like that, and I suppose I'm not very inclined to that type of thing.

Q. However, I would think that if it was true, it would just be delightful, I can't imagine why-it would elicit fear in anyone; how marvelous if they did choose to return.

A. Oh, I tend to think that the family would be somewhat happy with the presentation of the house, although 1 don't know that Abraham would like having as many people traipse through. And I don't think that the family would have been too happy about having certain aspects of their lives mulled over by the general public. They're very private lives, I don't know, I feel that that was one of the tragedies that Mary had to suffer, that she found distasteful. That people afforded her no privacy, and she became such a thing, almost, a thing of wonder, and people.

Q. And with a great deal of cruelty.

A. Yes, no sensitivity at all, and to a woman who was really very much a person who believed in etiquette and protocol and manners, so she was not afforded any after the assassination.

Q. Well, the horrifying thing that I think history forgets is that she lost three beautiful baby sona, and then her husband was horrify- ingly assassinated practically in front of her, and if you lose four beloved people in her family by tragedy, naturally you're going to 1 break a little bit, but if she had been kindly treated, and if it 1 were nowadays, with the medication and things, it would make such a 1 difference. I I A. Well, in addition to that, the Civil War was a wretching experience for her because her whole family was torn asunder, too, and she lost family members to the war in addition, so it was a terrible experience.

Q. Oh, that's true, and then there was no way to even hear from them by letter, I suppose, and then of course, there was probably bitter- \ ness against her husband.

A. Well, at one point, someone questioned her about this, and she said she could not wish any of the members of her family well, those who were fighting on the side of the south, because they said that they are our enemies, and they would kill us if they had a chance, and so that's a terrible experience to have to have that happen in

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 15

your family, also, and of course, the Lincolns weren't the only-ones to have to suffer that. But they certainly suffered as grievously as anyone at that time. But back to her family and the earlier times, I don't think, the family never really accepted her marriage to Abraham, even after he became President, they still did not.

Q. They still considered she married below her?

A. Right. And, in a way, it seems their interpretation was that all of this business was a terrific bore to have to expose yourself to the public like that. And, so that was simply their attitude, they would much rather have their wealth and their peace.

Q. Do we know where that farm that her father left her was?

A. Yes.

Q. What part of the area is it now?

A. Well, it's still being farmed that area is still being farmed and it's marked by a historic marker, in the southwest section of the county.

Q. Is it another town, rather than Springfield?

A. Well, the mailing address would be another town, yes, it's not within the city limits. I don't know exactly, I can't give you at this time, the exact location of it.

Q. Do the people who own it realize that it was part of the Todd holdings?

A. Oh, yes.

Q. Oh, they do, isn't that nice?

A. And, as I said, it's indicated by a historic marker, and it's still being farmed worth a lot more today than it was then. They ' bid land around here at $1.25 an acre.

Q. Is that the price then?

A. Yes, it was around that. That was the typical price around that t ime .

Q. Then, if we go upstairs, let's see.

A. You might want to finish the dining room first, we were talking, we do have a complete table setting of dishes which we feel are very appropriate to the Lincolns, but those are only put out on special

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 16

occasions, and we can only do that when you have someone stationed in the room all of the time, because all of those things are too close to the general public and they can be too easily made off with unfor- tunately, or broken, so we do have to exercise particular care, but around holidays or special occasions we, whenever we can, we like to set the table, the dishes are English ironstone and porcelain dishes that are blue transferware.

Q. Transferware?

A. Transferware was a popular form of decorating dishes at the time and it was an actual print that was made on a metal plate and then a film, the metal plate was varnished and powdered. Coloring was put on and then the film was run over that and then that was transferred on to the plate and then it was baked again and glazed and baked again,

Q. How complicated. Is it a pattern or a scene?

A. It's a scene, it's quite detailed. It's a Gothic European scene, castles and things of that time.

Q. In what shades?

A. Blue. Just blue and white. Blue was one of the easiest colors to work with and so it was very popular. Now, a little bit earlier in this time, they had a style called Flow, in which the color ran, and so you don't have clear distinct lines in the images, but that was an accident, but the people liked it, and so they continued ta do it.

Q. Oh, so often that happens.

A. Yes, but this is not Flow, this comes a little bit later.

Q. What company made those? I A. The potter is named Dawson, of Stratfordshire, English. But the# the silver and the crystal is American and the crystal is lead cryst@ and the silver is what is called corn silver because the amount of silver in it is heavy enough that it would be the same weight as corn.

Q. Oh, that's interesting. I've never heard of that particular kind.

A. And then the knives are ivory handled, so it makes a quite attrac- tive table setting.

Q. Are you the one in charge of that, nobody else must touch that at all.

A. Yes, that's true, and particularly at Thanksgiving one or two days at Thanksgiving we set the table to give particular emphasis to the fact that Mr. Lincoln was the President who made Thanksgiving a legal holiday. A national holiday.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan

Q. 1 wonder if everybody realizes that. I didn't realize that. hat's nice.

A. Well, of course, we try to make it known here, and an East coast publisher, a lady, at the time had been campaigning to make Thanks- giving a national holiday. It was celebrated, but not as a national holiday, and she convinced Mr. Lincoln. He said that we should give thanks, in particular, it was during the war, of course, to give thanks for our American heritage and to remember those who died fighting to maintain it.

Q. Oh, that's lovely.

A. The dining room was a family dining room and used every day. We presently have, again going back to the furnishings, we presently have the more expensive type of carpeting on the floor simply because it was made available to us, an antique piece of carpeting. However, I don't think that again, it's an appropriate type because it would have been a more expensive, more difficult kind of carpet to take care of. And, when we have a family of four boys, of course there were only three at the most, but when you have infants and children coming through.

Q. And the dog, Fido?

A. Right. Supposedly the dog was allowed in the house. They say that Mr. Lincoln would drive Mary to distraction by feeding the dog from the table, cutting his butter with his pocket knife, and of course sitting down to the table in his shirtsleeves, and stocking feet. And at times, getting up to run to the door dressed in such a fashion. We tend to emphasize a lot of people tend to think that Mary was a difficult woman to live with, but they seem to not realize many of the character traits that Abraham had, were ones that many women would find difficult to accept.

Q. Well, he was a frontiersman, and it was hard to get over.

A. And he was not particularly tuned into the female sensitivities, and this was something that did not come natural to him, so, a woman like Mary, who had been accustomed to being treated like a lady, and being up on a pedestal, as we say women in those times were. That would have not been particularly easy for her to accept, so I imagine it was not too unbelievable that she would be seen chasing him around the house with the frying pan. It wouldn't ruffle Abraham too much, though. Not too many things ruffled him.

Q. No, I think he found it rather amusing, that sometimes he got on her nerves a little bit.

A. Which didn't help matters any more, either.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan

Q. No. That about takes care of the dining room, then?

A. I think so.

Q. All right then, at the top of the stairs is a sort of a little alcove. Was that just used for just seeing if guests were driving up?

A. I suppose again, it's, we can't say definitely how it was used, once we get beyond the rooms for which we have the illustrations, it's difficult to say exactly how they should be furnished, how they should be used. We only have oral tradition as to the use of the house in the rest of it, and then what we know of how people typically lived their lives at that time.

Q. Yes, well, Robert's room is done in such a clean cut, sort of almost military manner, he was approximately high school age at the time they lived there, wasn't he, or early college?

A. Well, of course, he spent almost his full time there at the house, he was not a year old when they moved into the house, and the year that Mr. Lincoln was elected President in 1860, Robert was a freshman at Harvard, and he had gone to prep school for a year beforehand, so he for the most part had two years that the family lived in Spring- field, he was away from the home. We don't know if that room sat idle, or if it was used by someone else, or just exactly how it was used. But we set it up as if Rabert had a room of his own there, and of course, the furnishings of the house reflect that he was a young man of seventeen in 1860 and he had shaving equipment there and the books, the algebra book and the Latin grammar book, those would be the typical kinds of things that he might have in his room.

Q. Yes, I don't know, it gives a very good feeling, I mean you get the whole impression of Robert from the room. 1t's a very nice, and the little boys' room, I think is charming. Next door to it, Tad anp Willie's room. I don't know if Eddie had ever lived to be in this , home, had he?

A. Not the upstairs part, that was added on in 1856, and he had died in 1850. And, the two youngest boys were about five and two when they maved upstairs, so I imagine that was an exciting time for them too.

Q. Have their own place?

A. Right. The house expanded almost double, and to run up the front stairs and down the back stairs and throughout the house, which I'm sure that they probably did.

Q. Oh, yes. That has an excellent feeling, too. And then, Abraham's

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 19

room. Everybody is always discussing the bed, whether it really is six foot four, or whether he could fit in it, has that been measured? I know it's not the exact bed, but . . .

A. Well, I measure it once about every couple of months to see that it hasn't shrunk. It is a very large bed, and they did have large beds at that time, various kinds of beds, even twin beds they weren't too common, they were available. Beds were a very elaborate and important part of the furnishings, in fact, the bed was one of the first pieces of furniture that a husband was expected to provide if he was building his own house, he built the house, and the next day, he built the bed.

Q. Oh, isn't that something. Yes.

A. So that would be an important piece of the furnishings. One lovely old woman who was a quilter in Southern Illinois said, "Well, the only really important things that happened in an individual's life, happened in bed."

Q. Bless her heart.

A. So the bed was . . .

Q. The marriage contract fulfilled, the dying, I suppose if you think of it that way.

A. Yes, she was talking about she and her husband were making this one particular quilt, and he was teasing her, saying that after she died, he'd be sleeping under the quilt with somebody else, and she said, "I fooled him, I lived longer than he did."

Q. Bless her heart. Then, Mary's room has a lovely, delicate air about it, I think the lovely pieces you have around, the little jars and the perfume bottles and things add a great deal to that. Are any of those authenticated, or are they just the type that were use 1 in those days?

A. They're the type that was used, and of course, if you could afford it, and were more able to have an individual room for the lady of the house, it was considered to be highly desirable. They were very modest, and of course all of their bathroom activities had to take place in the room, so this was considered to be a very desirable luxury, and this gave them privacy. The ladies were very modest, as I say, it wouldn't be unusual at all for a husband.to never have seen his wife completely undressed at the times.

Q. Yes, and even the night attire was the flannelette gowns, and the heavy robes and things like that. 1 don't know, it just had a lovely feel when you go by, you get a nice feeling. His is so strong and big and open and masculine, and hers is sort of flounces and lace, and

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 2 0

it's just lovely. It gives a nice feeling, and then ~'veheard expres- sions of absolute awe when people find the maid's room. It never struck them that perhaps there was a live-in girl. Can you tell us something about that?

A. Well, we have records to document the fact that the Lincolns did have help, and there are three censuses, 1850 and 1860 Filcrum censuses, and an 1855 state census, and in each of the three, they list an individual, or in 1860, two individuals living in the house, and they're individuals who worked for the Lincolns. In 1860, there was a hired boy in addition to the hired girl. These are live-in people who helped. After all, it was a large house, definitely the last five years, and even the first twelve years, when the family was there, and the children were little, and Mary didn' t have anyone else to help her, and she had no daughters, and sons didn't do housework, so to speak, they might do chores, but there was still a lot of work. Mary would have to have help. There were times when a lady was confined, as they said, to her room, and definitely in periods of pregnancy, once a woman began to show any signs of being pregnant, she never left the house, and so at the time, they didn't necessarily work as hard before and after the birth, and the period of confinement was longer, much longer. So, Mary would have needed help, and certainly her sisters wouldn't have been the ones to come over and help her do work. So, in addition to the live-in help, there were occasions when the LincoZns hired additional help.

Q. Extra servants for holiday time for entertaining and things like that?

A. Right, and when parties were given, men were hired to serve the coffee, black men were hired.

Q. And to take the horses and the carriages and take care of them while the guests stayed.

A. It was costly and Mary watched where the pennies went, especiallb in their early days, but still that would have been considered essen- tial and she still had to do a lot of work herself in the house, but she would have had help.

Q. They had barns in the back then, where the horses were kept?

A. Right. There was a carriage house. The Lincolns had, they were a two vehicle family, they had two vehicles, we only have accounts of one horse.

Q. Old Bob?

A. Old Bob. And a cow, and so in the usual collection of other animals, dogs and cats and of course the famous "Fido," the family

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 21

dog, and we don't have the exact record of cats, but we do know that Mrs. Lincoln was known to have said that Mr. Lincoln loved cats and would pick up strays and would bring them home. So I imagine they had quite a few, but the cats were important for keeping the mice away.

Q. Now all the back lot was probably pretty much where they had the barns and the farm area of the house. Did they grow any of their own vegetables?

A. We only have record of a neighbor saying that Abraham put in a garden once, but we have to remember that he travelled the circuit for three months in the spring, so he wouldn't have been home to plant the garden, and for some reason some unknown reason, Abraham didn't seem to. When he went out to travel the circuit, he stayed out for almost three months at a time, and he didn't come home on weekends, typically, as some other of the circuit-riding lawyers did.

Q. Well, perhaps he found more rapport with a family if he just stayed for a week or so and discussed things and went through all of the political aspects in the country or the woods.

A. Well, Abraham enjoyed being in the country store, sitting around spinning yarns and I think he enjoyed that kind of company more than any other and he was most comfortable in that milieu. That seemed to be the pattern that they established. So, there again, too, Mary would have needed help, and someone that she would give her companion- ship in the house. Over fifty per cent of the time, Abraham was not home.

Q. That often?

A. Oh yes, well, the three months in the spring and the three month6 in the fall that he travelled the circuit, and then the additional times when he went around trying cases at various places like ~hicagb or Alton, or Galena.

Q. During those years, then, he was really a successful lawyer, was he not? I mean he did very well financially?

A. He did quite well. He was not to the point where he was consumed with making money, in fact, every once in awhile, he said he was going to have to buckle down and get to work to make some money because he had been playing in politics so much, but, Mr. Lincoln, in almost every national and state election went on speaking tours and campaigned for the Whigs. And then subsequently, the Republicans, so he was a very active, hearty man. Very much a politician in the best sense of the word, and a very clever politician,too. I Q. Well, of course, he started that very young, and just had that drive towards it.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 2 2

A. He had the love. He said that politics was his first love, and . . .

Q. Perhaps Ann Rutledge his second, and Mary Todd, his third?

A. Well, I don't know about Ann Rutledge, that pretty much has been blown out of proportion as to what the facts are.

Q. Truly, you think it was over-romanticized?

A. Well, I think so. There were only, I'm sure that they were friends and I'm sure that Abraham mourned her death, and probably was very romantic about the whole experience because the people 05 that par- ticular time tended to romanticize death, and dwell on it a great deal more, and it was part of their culture at that time. One of the most famous poems from the period was "Evangeline" and "~hanatopsis" and it was considered fashionable to mourn visibly and deeply, and so of course death was an important: part of their life because it was such a close part of their life. The deaths of children were to be expected, and in the 185OVs, half .the childrgn died- before they . . were five years of age.

Q. Oh, was it that enormous?

A. Yes.

Q. Oh, what an awful statistic.

A. So the Lincolns were not atypical, at all, losing one son before he was five years, in fact three years, nine months.

Q. What a tragic time to lose a baby, just when he is forming his personality and becoming a little boy.

A. Well, I think that is a factor with the third son being born within a year of the death of the second son. I think that made him1 a very special child, and almost like a gift.

Q. To replace?

A. Right. And then Willie's personality was perhaps the best of the four sans, and so I think he was a very special child, very bright, charming, outgoing, and of course, then that only amplified the tragedy of his death at about age twelve.

Q. That's perfectly awful. Did he die of a type of pneumonia?

A. Well, the death certificate at that time were not as exact as we would have them today, but they think it was a fever somewhat like a malarial type of fever, now, the youngest son, Tad did die of pneumonia, andthe 1850 census-lists Edward as Peing a chronic consumptive, and so he probably had tuberculosis and died from that.

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 2 3

Q. Oh, you think so? Well, it seems so strange, because you think of people tuberculin that did not receive good food or eggs or milk or all the nourishing things which you know Abraham and Mary gave their boys, would it not be more a bronchial or an asthmatic condition which they misdiagnosed?

A. It.coqld be,however, tuberculosis was common, and not just restricted to poor health or eating habits. I mean if the person were weak and contracted the disease, then it was a difficult disease to fight and to get rid of, and if the person is run down, they can be subject to it, in fact, my mother had tuberculosis, This was in the early 1950s, and she had suffered a miscarriage and had a hysterectomy and just never got well enough and contracted the disease and had to be hospitalized for over a year.

Q, Oh, how very frightening.

A. But, today, and that was just in the early 195Os, and today, of course, today we don't think of it.

Q. No, a11 of the tuberculosis sanitariums have been closed up. It's remarkable.

A. They hardly even find the isolated person who has tuberculosis any more.

Q. Although they do say with the immigrants now coming in from other nations, that problem may arise again.

A. But, it's surprising, the advances in medicine, of course they had nothing, and it hasn't been very long that we've had the anti- biotics and wonder-drugs and in fact, when I was born in 1939, and two weeks old, came down with whooping cough and doub,le pneumonia, the doctor said, "Well, there's no chance, unless we try this new drug, sulfa. 'I

Q. And then you became a lovely shade of yellow, I remember the , sulfa drugs very well.

A. Well, I don't remember being yellow, since I was too young, but anyway, I was able to pull through, but, and so, a lot of advance- ments have come rather recently.

Q. Yes, fantastic, Salk and all the wonderful medications, and you feel that if they only had those at the time of the Lincoln boys' illnesses, that we would have had all of them.

A. Well, I'm sure they had the best care, Mary's brother-in-law was a doctor.

Q. Which one of the families was that? Was that the Davis family?

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 24

A. No. That was the Wallace family. In fact, William was named William Wallace after the brother-in-law, and possibly because of the services that he had given the family at this particular time. I imagine that because he was a very good doctor, and an advanced thinker at the time, in fact, he believed that bleeding was not a good medical practice and stopped it. It practically destroyed his practice because people thought that was the only way to get rid of the bad blood, and so when he wouldn't bleed, he practically lost his practice.

Q. Of course, it was fine for infection, but it was very weakening for anything else. The houses, now, I think that the neighborhood has been, is being restored so beautifully, and the feeling of not just Lincoln's home, but the whole neighborhood area is intriguing visitors to the park site. Do you do anything, or will you be doing anything if they decide to, for instance, refurnish the downstairs. Will you be putting in the special things in the various houses when they start?

A. Well, I do have a hand in doing any of that when we pull out artifacts and furnishings in any other location in the park, such as we had to do in the education center or in the visitor's center from time to time. The plans are that we probably will not be histor- ically furnishing any other site other than what we have right now. The occasional ones in the Ed Center and the visitor's center, and then the home. The problem with furnishing any other home, or putting it open for visitation, is that it has to be staffed, and that's very expensive. The Park Service, as well as the rest of the government is on a belt-tightening budget right now, so, and the cost of the Park Site has been its greatest in acquiring the properties and stabilizing the properties rather than restoring them would cost a great deal more money. The plan is to make them available on a lease basis for private residential use, and this would benefit in several ways. The income would help maintain each home itself, the utilitieg would be paid by the tenant, which would reduce our budget output, a d it would, well, I think Mr. Banton, our Superintendent has said thatr it would massage the rest of the park by having people living in the homes. It would be good for the structure itself, it would be good for the entire park site, it would provide protection for it, it would make it alive, rather than shadowy and static in some ways.

Q. I suppose so. You would have to watch modern bicycles on the porch and all of the paraphenalia.

A. There would be restrictions on the exterior use of the house, and the way it appears from the exterior. Window treatments would still have to be period style.

Q. The curtains the exact type.and everything?

A. Yes, so that would restrict the type of people who would want to

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS Paul Sullivan 25

live under those restrictions, but I think that there are enough people in Springfield, due particularly to the universities, that there would be people who would be sensitive to the needs and enjoy the experience of living in the area.

Q. Yes. It sounds beautiful.

A. I, myself would love to live in Cornell house or the Beadle house or something like that, but I'm afraid that the cost is going to be a little prohibitive for some of us who work at the Park.

Q. Well, Mr. Sullivan, I am so grateful for this interview. You've just given us so many things to think about, so many things that I didn't know about. We are very lucky to have someone like you who is caring and well-educated and a local man who knows the area and knows where perhaps the goodies are hidden because some of the Lincoln things are still in homes, I think around the area. I know of one that 1'11 tell you about after we're off the microphone. I just enjoyed this interview with you so much this morning. Thank you.

A. Well, thank you, I'm happy to do it.

END OF TAPE

Paul Sullivan Memoir - Archives/ Special Collections - Norris L Brookens Library - University of Illinois at Springfield - UIS