House of Commons Work and Pensions Committee The best start in life? Alleviating deprivation, improving social mobility, and eradicating child poverty Second Report of Session 2007–08 Volume II Oral and written evidence Ordered by The House of Commons to be printed 20 February 2008 HC 42-II Published on 10 March 2008 by authority of the House of Commons London: The Stationery Office Limited £0.00 The Work and Pensions Committee The Work and Pensions Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Department for Work and Pensions and its associated public bodies. Current membership Terry Rooney MP (Labour, Bradford North) (Chairman) Anne Begg MP (Labour, Aberdeen South) Harry Cohen MP (Labour, Leyton and Wanstead) Michael Jabez Foster MP (Labour, Hastings and Rye) Oliver Heald MP (Conservative, Hertfordshire North East) Joan Humble MP (Labour, Blackpool North and Fleetwood) Tom Levitt MP (Labour, High Peak) Greg Mulholland MP (Liberal Democrat, Leeds North West) John Penrose MP (Conservative, Weston-Super-Mare) Mark Pritchard MP (Conservative, The Wrekin) Jenny Willott MP (Liberal Democrat, Cardiff Central) The following Members were also members of the Committee during the Parliament: Philip Dunne MP (Conservative, Ludlow) Natascha Engel MP (Labour, North East Derbyshire) Justine Greening MP (Conservative, Putney) Powers The committee is one of the departmental select committees, the powers of which are set out in House of Commons Standing Orders, principally in SO No 152. These are available on the Internet via www.parliament.uk. Publications The Reports and evidence of the Committee are published by The Stationery Office by Order of the House. All publications of the Committee (including press notices) are on the Internet at www.parliament.uk/parliamentary_committees/work_and_pensions_committee.c fm. A list of Reports of the Committee in the present Parliament is at the back of this volume. Committee staff The current staff of the Committee are James Rhys (Clerk), Emma Graham (Second Clerk), Amy Sweeney and Hanna Haas (Committee Specialists), Laura Humble (Committee Media Adviser), Louise Whitley (Committee Assistant), Emily Gregory (Committee Secretary) and John Kittle (Senior Office Clerk). Contacts All correspondence should be addressed to the Clerk of the Work and Pensions Committee, House of Commons, 7 Millbank, London SW1P 3JA. The telephone number for general enquiries is 020 7219 5833; the Committee’s email address is [email protected] Witnesses Wednesday 24 October 2007 Lisa Harker, Institute for Public Policy Research Qq 1-26 Fran Bennett, Senior Research Fellow, University of Oxford, Mike Brewer, Qq 27-63 Institute for Fiscal Studies and Tess Ridge, Lecturer, University of Bath Wednesday 7 November 2007 Steve Broach, Every Disabled Child Matters, Martin Narey, Barnardo’s and Qq 64-105 Jason Streliz, Save the Children Kate Bell, One Parent Families|Gingerbread and Kate Green, Child Poverty Qq 106-145 Action Group Wednesday 21 November 2007 Richard Exell, TUC, Keith Faulkner CBE, FRSA, Working Links, and Alex Bax Qq 146-215 and Doreen Kenny, Greater London Authority Monday 3 December 2007 Caroline Flint MP, Minister of State for Employment and Welfare Reform, Rt Hon Jane Kennedy MP, Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Jonathan Portes, DWP Qq 216-298 and Jonathan Athow, HM Treasury List of written evidence 1 Ruth Lister Ev 1 2 TUC Ev 4 3 Citizens Advice Scotland Ev 9 4 YWCA Ev 13 5 Surrey Welfare Rights Unit Ev 18 6 Adrian Sinfield Ev 23 7 Remploy Ltd Ev 38 8 Institute for Fiscal Studies Ev 39 9 Fran Bennett Ev 42 10 Every Disabled Child Matters Ev 46 11 Scope, Treehouse and Working Families Ev 51 12 WorkDirections UK Ev 52 13 Barnardo’s Ev 56 14 Joseph Rowntree Foundation Ev 64 15 National Childminding Association Ev 66 16 Save the Children Ev 70 17 Poor Relations Project Ev 76 18 I CAN Ev 84 19 Family Fund Ev 90 20 Mayor of London Ev 102 21 One Parent Families/Gingerbread Ev 104 22 CPAG Ev 114 23 Family Welfare Association Ev 123 24 Daycare Trust Ev 126 25 Low Incomes Tax Reform Group Ev 128 26 DWP Ev 131; 140; 143; 187 27 Working Links Ev 151 28 Centre for the Economics of Education Ev 153 29 Families Need Fathers Ev 163 30 Tess Ridge Ev 164 31 Transcript of You and Yours Radio Programme Ev 170 Processed: 27-02-2008 16:01:58 Page Layout: COENU1 [SO] PPSysB Job: 380377 Unit: PAG2 Work and Pensions Committee: Evidence 1 Oral evidence Taken before the Work and Pensions Committee on Wednesday 24 October 2007 Members present Mr Terry Rooney, in the Chair Miss Anne Begg Mrs Joan Humble Harry Cohen Greg Mulholland Michael Jabez Foster John Penrose Mr Oliver Heald Jenny Willott Witness: Ms Lisa Harker, Co-Director, Institute for Public Policy Research, gave evidence. Q1 Chairman: I welcome everybody to the second meeting the 2010 target. I think that one of the most sessionof theCommittee’s inquiryintochildpoverty. valuable things I could do in my report was to try to Ms Harker, it is good to see you again. Do you think set out a picture of where we would be likely to be the 2010 and 2020 targets are correct, or should there given current policies and where Government would be more focus on the very poor? need to be to meet the 2010 target. Right now we are Ms Harker: I think they are the correct targets. It is a long way from meeting that target, but it would be always a challenge to find a single target that captures possible to achieve it with a substantial increase in the experience of poverty and I strongly support the investment. We are at the most diYcult phase of this approach of Government to take a range of strategy. The first six or seven years of the 20-year indicators to provide a background picture. But in strategy has been about putting in place some order to focus government attention and energies a measures but it has also been possible to help out of single and relative income target is needed. poverty those who are easiest to help. We are now at Therefore, I support the targets as currently set out. the phase of thestrategy where not only do we haveto help those who are furthest away from escaping Q2 Chairman: The Government makes much virtue poverty—the more diYcult cases—but put in place of work as the principal route out of poverty. As we longer-term measures, such as investment in get nearer to 2020 there will be a residual number of education in the early years, to ensure we reach the people for whom work is not possible for whatever 2020 target and take a look at some of the drivers of reason. Does it mean that out-of-work benefits must poverty.Inasense,weareat themostexpensivephase rise to a level that destroys any work incentive or is of the strategy where we need both short-term there another mechanism which deals with that investment to remain on track and long-term situation? investment to get to where we need to be ultimately. Ms Harker: Government needsto look at thebalance At the moment the Government has not put in the of out-of-work benefits and in-work support. level of investment that is needed to reach either the Employment as a route out of poverty as you suggest 2010 or 2020 target. can go only so far. There will alwaysbe a group that is out of work. It is critical to acknowledge that our aspiration is to be as close to the best in Europe in Q4 Chairman: Do you think anything will change in terms of child poverty levels. That may mean never the next two years in that respect? reaching the magic zero, but we can certainly do far Ms Harker:What we dohave is a very strongpolitical better. With child poverty rates in Scandinavian commitment, so at the moment we have a gap countries of around 3, 4 or 5% we should look to that between rhetoric and reality. I do not doubt the as a target. As to people who are out of work, we Government’s commitment to this; it is certainly one should aspire to a position where unemployment is a of the main political motivations of the Prime temporary experience for many, and there should be Minister. We see very strong public commitments support forthose who cannot work. Onegoes backto across government to meet the target. My experience the original principle set out by Government: there Y of working for the DWP reinforced my impression ought to be su cient out-of-work support for those that this was something the Government took very who cannot work to ensure they escape the poverty seriously. One cannot, however, escape the line. conclusion that currently the rhetoric and reality in terms of where one is likely to get to do not match. Q3 Chairman: The year 2020 is a long way away but 2010 is almost on the doorstep. What do you believe are the chances of reaching the 2010 target? Q5 Chairman: The Government has now defined Ms Harker: Looking at current policies andthe likely material deprivation. It took some time to get there progress one can project to the best of one’s abilities, but we now have a definition. Do you think that is currently the Government does not have a chance of likely to lead to any change in policy? Processed: 27-02-2008 16:01:58 Page Layout: COENU1 [E] PPSysB Job: 380377 Unit: PAG2 2 Work and Pensions Committee: Evidence 24 October 2007 Ms Lisa Harker Ms Harker: It is helpful to have a measure of programme support and think carefully about how material deprivation as a way to put some colour on one uses resources and whether a more personalised the picture of the experience of poverty, recognising service for individuals may ultimately be more that if the only focus is on an income target one may cost-eVective.