PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT GENERAL COMMITTEES Select Committee on the Armed Forces Bill ARMED FORCES BILL Second Sitting Tuesday 15 February 2011 (Morning) CONTENTS CLAUSE 2 agreed to. Adjourned till this day at ten minutes past Two o’clock. PUBLISHED BY AUTHORITY OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS LONDON – THE STATIONERY OFFICE LIMITED £5·00 PBC (Bill 122) 2010 - 2011 Members who wish to have copies of the Official Report of Proceedings in General Committees sent to them are requested to give notice to that effect at the Vote Office. No proofs can be supplied. Corrigenda slips may be published with Bound Volume editions. Corrigenda that Members suggest should be clearly marked in a copy of the report—not telephoned—and must be received in the Editor’s Room, House of Commons, not later than Saturday 19 February 2011 STRICT ADHERENCE TO THIS ARRANGEMENT WILL GREATLY FACILITATE THE PROMPT PUBLICATION OF THE BOUND VOLUMES OF PROCEEDINGS IN GENERAL COMMITTEES © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ Enquiries to the Office of Public Sector Information, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 31 Select Committee on the15 FEBRUARY 2011 Armed Forces Bill 32 The Committee consisted of the following Members: Chair: MR JAMES ARBUTHNOT † Cunningham, Alex (Stockton North) (Lab) † Osborne, Sandra (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab) † Docherty, Thomas (Dunfermline and West Fife) † Pincher, Christopher (Tamworth) (Con) (Lab) † Robathan, Mr Andrew (Parliamentary Under- † Doyle, Gemma (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op) Secretary of State for Defence) † Ellwood, Mr Tobias (Bournemouth East) (Con) † Russell, Bob (Colchester) (LD) † Francois, Mr Mark (Vice-Chamberlain of Her † Wright, David (Telford) (Lab) Majesty’s Household) † Jones, Mr Kevan (North Durham) (Lab) Georgina Holmes-Skelton, Committee Clerk † Lancaster, Mark (Milton Keynes North) (Con) † Lopresti, Jack (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con) † attended the Committee 33 Select Committee on theHOUSE OF COMMONS Armed Forces Bill 34 Member for North Durham will find that the discrepancies Select Committee on the identified by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and Armed Forces Bill West Fife are fairly minor and technical. I do not think they will necessarily lead to huge concerns. Tuesday 15 February 2011 The Chair: I think the Minister might wish to hear again whether 6 o’clock is the appropriate time for him (Morning) to have mentioned. As he taking inspiration on that point— [MR JAMES ARBUTHNOT in the Chair] Mr Robathan: Further to that point of order, Armed Forces Bill Mr Arbuthnot. I am sorry—I hear, hot off the press, that the hon. Gentleman will get the memorandum by 2 pm. 10.10 am Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr Arbuthnot. I have given the Clause 2 Minister prior notice of this. You will recall that a fortnight ago the civil servants promised to write to the ARMED FORCES COVENANT REPORT Committee about why there were some minor differences between civilian rules on breathalysing and drug testing Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op): I after an incident, and military rules. The civil servants beg to move amendment 3, in clause 2, page 2, leave out still have not given us an answer. We have moved on to lines 11 and 12 and insert— consideration of the Bill and are out of time to table (a) education; amendments. Could the Minister inquire as to why the civil servants have been unable to give us an answer? (b) accommodation; (c) healthcare; The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (d) mental healthcare; (Mr Andrew Robathan): Further to that point of order, (e) pensions and benefits; Mr Arbuthnot. I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving (f) employment and training; me notice of that point of order some eight minutes (g) support for reservists and their employers; ago. I spoke to officials and was distressed to discover (h) the running of the Armed Forces Compensation that a memorandum has been written but is somewhere Scheme; in the bureaucratic chain. That is not an excuse; I put it (i) progress on armed forces rehabilitation services; and forward as the reason. I have given instructions that the (j) other such fields as the External Reference Group may memorandum should reach the hon. Gentleman by the determine.’. end of play today. If it does not, I shall want to know why not. The Chair: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment 1, in clause 2, page 2, line 12, at end Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab): Further to insert— that point of order, Mr Arbuthnot. May I seek your ‘(2A) The armed forces covenant report must also include advice? Clearly, we shall reach the parts of the Bill that analysis of the effects of membership, or former membership, of cover these changes on Thursday. If we have not received the reserve forces in such fields as the Secretary of State may that memorandum by the end of today, how can we determine.’. table any amendments that may be necessary? Gemma Doyle: As the Bill stands, only health, education The Chair: Amendments for Thursday had to be and housing are specifically cited as issues that the tabled by close of play yesterday, but in a circumstance report on the covenant should cover. I do not think that such as this it is within the discretion of the Chair to sufficient. The list set out in amendment 3 is more allow late amendments, and I would be very amenable comprehensive and more appropriately reflects the Secretary to using such discretion in this case. of State’s own responsibilities. The Minister or the Secretary of State may not be keen to be directed by this Mr Jones: Further to that point of order, Mr Arbuthnot. amendment, but when the Conservatives were in opposition That is very helpful, but if we get the memorandum they were only too pleased to speak at length about all tonight, what is the latest point at which we can table the things they promised they would do for our armed amendments? forces when they got into government. The same was true of the Lib Dems. Now they find themselves in Mr Robathan: Further to that point of order, office together, neither seems willing to take detailed Mr Arbuthnot. The House will be sitting until 10 o’clock and practical action. The alternative that the Minister this evening, and you have said that you would be has to offer is, in the words of the chairman of the sympathetic to late amendments being tabled. I am glad Forces Pension Society, to say that my civil servants do not normally work until “all flute music and arm waving.” 10 in the evening. They work more normal hours and I As a flautist myself I have nothing against flute music, would expect their response to come at the latest—they but I would suggest that it has its place—which is not are listening—by 6 o’clock this evening. I think the hon. anywhere near the armed forces covenant. It is perhaps 35 Select Committee on the15 FEBRUARY 2011 Armed Forces Bill 36 of no great surprise that MOD Ministers are not keen We heard in evidence last week from Dawn McCafferty to talk about pensions, allowances and employment that her organisation, the RAF Families Federation, right now. was not consulted about what the Bill should contain. The Minister said last Thursday that the charities from 10.15 am which we have heard told us that they had been consulted. Weheard evidence last Thursday from service charities—in I want to clarify that they said they had been consulted particular from Tony Stables of the Confederation of on a first, very rough draft of the covenant, which was British Service and Ex Service Organisations—from the described as “weak”, but not on the Bill. Amendment 3 armed forces families federations and from the Forces expands the matters that are to be covered to include Pension Society that a move to expand the list of issues mental health care, pensions and benefits, and employment set out in the Bill would be welcome, and that the and training. Secretary of State should not report on the work of other Departments without reporting on his own. It Mr Jones: Does my hon. Friend agree that when the would be bizarre if we had a report that criticised local charities referred to the covenant, they were not talking authoritiesortheDepartmentforEducationfordisadvantaging about the Bill but to another document, which we the children of servicemen and women, but that made assume will appear at some time in the future, called the no reference to the MOD’s responsibilities. Conservative covenant? Exactly how that relates to the Bill is not Members have expressed disappointment over the fact clear either to the Committee or to the service charities. that reservists are not even mentioned in the Bill, and I agree that the particular challenges they face should be considered. Gemma Doyle: My hon. Friend makes a good point. In Thursday’s sitting we finally had a clarification that Benefits paid to former serving personnel—for example, there will be two different documents: the report on the under the armed forces compensation scheme—have covenant and the covenant itself. Unfortunately, the Bill been the subject of great interest in previous years. has given us no scope to consider what the covenant There is also a huge amount of interest in armed forces should contain.