Burke Marshall Oral History Interview – RFK, 1/19-20/1970 Administrative Information Creator: Burke Marshall Interviewer: Larry J. Hackman Date of Interview: January 19-20, 1970 Place of Interview: Bedford, N.Y. Length: 93 pages Biographical Note Marshall served as Assistant Attorney General in the Civil Rights Division of the Department of Justice (1961-1964); general counsel of International Business Machines Corp. (1965-1969); and as an adviser to Robert F. Kennedy (RFK). In this interview, he discusses his work on civil rights issues with RFK during their time in the Department of Justice and afterwards; the FBI’s use of wiretapping and other electronic surveillance against Martin Luther King, Jr.; and RFK’s 1964 campaign for the Senate, and 1968 campaign for president, among other issues. Access Restrictions Open. 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Hackman, January 19-20, 1970, (page number), John F. Kennedy Library Oral History Program. Burke Marshall—RFK Table of Contents Page Topic 1 Press coverage of Robert F. Kennedy (RFK) and the Justice Department 5, 33 Civil rights legislation 6 RFK’s feelings about his oral histories and the Kennedy Library oral history project 7 Working relationship with RFK 8 Justice Department work on District of Columbia matters 9 Justice Department Antitrust Division 10 RFK’s relationship with other Justice officials 11 RFK’s working habits and administrative style 13 Possibility of RFK becoming secretary of state if John F. Kennedy (JFK) had lived 14, 17 Federal judgeships 15 Voting rights and school desegregation lawsuits 22 President’s Committee on Equal Employment Opportunity 25 Harris L. Wofford, Jr. 26 Civil Rights Commission 28 Ending discrimination in federally financed housing 30 RFK’s relationship with civil rights leaders 31 RFK’s relationship with Congress as attorney general 35, 47 Wiretapping and electronic surveillance 41, 90 FBI electronic surveillance of Martin Luther King, Jr., and attempts to discredit him 46 RFK’s feelings about and relationship with Martin Luther King, Jr. 50 Bobby Baker investigation 51 Jimmy Hoffa and organized crime’s influence on the labor movement 52 Contempt of court case against Ross R. Barnett 53 Possibility of RFK as vice president in 1964 55 Paul Corbin 56 RFK’s 1964 senate campaign 58 Nicholas deB. Katzenbach’s appointment as attorney general 59 Marshall’s post-Justice Department career 60 Voting Rights Act of 1965 63 Congressional reapportionment and the Gray vs. Sanders Supreme Court case 64 Overseeing Evelyn N. Lincoln and other JFK presidential papers issues 65 RFK’s efforts to promote business investment in urban areas 68 Attempts to get business endorsement for RFK in 1968 70 William Manchester’s book The Death of a President 74 Warren Commission and other JFK assassination investigations 75 Vietnam War after JFK’s death 77 Riots in the U.S. in the late 1960s 78 RFK’s decision to run for president in 1968 86 RFK’s 1968 presidential campaign 87 Martin Luther King, Jr.’s assassination 88 Attempts to get endorsements for RFK in 1968 from black leaders 91 Presidential debate between RFK and Eugene J. McCarthy 92 Effect of JFK’s assassination on RFK 93 RFK’s feelings about Lyndon B. Johnson Oral History Interview with Burke Marshall January 19-20, 1970 Bedford, N.Y. By Larry J. Hackman For the Robert F. Kennedy Oral History Program of the Kennedy Library HACKMAN: I just wanted to ask you, just to start off with, to sort of put those Tony Lewis [Anthony Lewis] interviews that you and Robert Kennedy [Robert F. Kennedy] did in sort of a frame of reference. Can you remember Robert Kennedy‘s impressions of those interviews, the way they came out, pleased or displeased or…? MARSHALL: I don‘t know whether he ever read them. I don‘t recall. They were incomplete, and I think that he may have indicated where he thought they were incomplete. But, otherwise, I don‘t remember any… HACKMAN: Yeah. MARSHALL: …reaction. HACKMAN: What can you remember of just about the development of his relationship with Tony Lewis and the New York Times, really, since the New York Times had had sort of a special relationship under Eisenhower [Dwight D. Eisenhower]? Do you remember how that worked out? What changes were made? MARSHALL: When Robert Kennedy was appointed attorney general, Tony Lewis took sort of a personal affront. He didn‘t think much of Robert Kennedy at that point. I don‘t think he knew much, and I don‘t think he knew Bob Kennedy very well; but he thought he knew everything about the Justice Department, and so he had a good deal of advice to give about what appointments should be made in the Justice Department. Of course, that advice wasn‘t followed fully, although I suppose that Tony did know a lot of lawyers around Washington, and he did have some judgment about [-1-] them. But that wasn‘t a very good start, so it must have required some passage of time—I mean, as time went along he became very fond and very impressed with Robert Kennedy, and he was already a pretty good friend of some of the people in the Justice Department. He had been a friend of mine for some time before that. I don‘t know exactly when it changed, but the New York Times as an institution never did become much of a fan of Robert Kennedy—in fact, quite the opposite. Tony, himself, through his coverage of the Justice Department and you could tell by his books and his writings—was impressed with the way that Bob Kennedy affected the Justice Department. It was partly the people he brought in, but it wasn‘t just the people he brought in; it was really his own performance and his own impact on the career lawyers there, and the tremendous respect that people that Tony had respect for gave Bob Kennedy. And so, it was all of those things, but it didn‘t start off that way. HACKMAN: How did the relationship with the New York Times change from what it had been in the Eisenhower Administration when, you know, from what I‘ve heard, they had access to some things sooner than other papers? MARSHALL: Well, it may have been because of the press officer under Eisenhower. I can‘t remember his name, but I… HACKMAN: The guy who just wrote the book. Have you seen that? Praeger [Praeger Publishers] put out his book on the Justice Department, I believe. [The Justice Department, by Luther Huston]. MARSHALL: No. What is his name? HACKMAN: I can‘t remember the name either. I just looked at the book. MARSHALL: Well, I think he had something to do with the Times. I think he came from the Times. HACKMAN: Yes. Right. He had. MARSHALL: So Tony thought the New York Times should have special privilege and that‘s what the New York Times always thinks, anyway. HACKMAN: Yes. MARSHALL: And they didn‘t get that, of course. Ed Guthman [Edwin O. Guthman] didn‘t deal with reporters that way at all; so they were cut off from special treatment, and I guess Tony didn‘t like that. HACKMAN: Yes. MARSHALL: At the time of the appointments—you know, this was true of all [-2-] reporters—there was a game going on of how they could beat a story about the appointment. I didn‘t have anything much to do with them, and I didn‘t pay too much attention to it. I‘d see Tony, but Tony was always very fair with me; that is, he didn‘t try to pry that kind of a story out of me, ever. HACKMAN: Can you remember any of Robert Kennedy‘s general observations on who did do a good job of covering the Justice Department, and your own, particularly in the civil rights area? MARSHALL: I can‘t remember.