Cambodia Tribunal Monitor http://www.cambodiatribunal.org “He told me that those Cham people would be smashed”, witness tells the Court Former commune clerk Sos Romly concluded his testimony today, January 08 2016, in front of theint Trial Chamber of the ECCC. He gave evidence concerning the authority structure of Trea Village and Trea Commune and testified on the treatment of the Cham, their evacuation and the arrests of cadres. Religious Practices At the beginning of the session, Trial Chamber Greffier Em Hoy confirmed the presence of all parties with Nuon Chea following the proceedings from the holding cell. No reserve witness was scheduled. The floor was given to International Co-Prosecutor Nicholas Koumjian, who inquired what education he had before 1975. The witness replied that he had not received any education until then. Mr. Koumjian asked where he learned to read, since he had indicated to have been chosen as a clerk because of his handwriting. He replied that he went to Trea primary school until 3rd grade, “but during the time that I studied, I read a lot of newspapers.” International Co-Prosecutor Nicholas Koumjian He confirmed having practiced Islam before the Khmer Rouge took power. He confirmed being able to recall 17 April 1975. Asked whether “things started to change” for Cham people after this date, he recalled that Cham women had to cut their hair short and were prohibited to worship. Before 1975, they were allowed to practice five times a day, seven days a week, and went to the mosque on Friday. Mr. Koumjian inquired how the prohibition after April 1975 was enforced. He replied that they were told that “the religion was considered reactionary”, and they were not allowed to practice their religion privately or in mosques. 1 / 16 Cambodia Tribunal Monitor http://www.cambodiatribunal.org Mr. Koumjian asked whether the headgear Mr. Rumly was wearing on Wednesday and Friday was something typical for Cham people, which the witness confirmed. Mr. Koumjian then asked whether he was wearing the headgear also after April 1975. Mr. Koppe interjected and said that the area had been in the hands of the Khmer Rouge already earlier and things did not “change all of the sudden” from April 1975. Mr. Koumjian replied that the jurisdiction of the court extended to 17 April 1975. Mr. Koumjian repeated his question. The witness said that they were prohibited of wearing these headgears. When Mr. Koumjian inquired whether some people refused to abolish their religion, the witness recounted that people were afraid. There were arrests of hakims and teachers. “For this reason, people were afraid.” He did not know what happened to those who were arrested. Authority structure in the district Mr. Koumjian wanted to know who the head of the commune was when Mr. Rumly first became clerk. Mr. Rumly replied that it was Chhean. Chhean had been arrested in 1977 “under the accusation that he betrayed the party.” After the arrest of Chhean, a security cadre from Krouch Chhmar district, Sim, came to replace him. Han also came to replace Chhean. In mid-1978, both Sim and Han were arrested as well. Thirty soldiers came to arrest the two individuals.” Someone called Hor was the chief of the group that arrested the two. Hor appointed Meng to replace Sim and Han. Meng was appointed to be chief in Trea. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know what the position of Hor was. Mr. Rumly replied that Meng was the district chief of Krouch Chhmar. Asked to clarify, Mr. Rumly answered that Meng appointed Hor to be commune chief. Hor was higher than Meng, “since Hor appointed Meng to be commune chief.” Since this caused confusion, Mr. Koumjian asked again what Hor’s position was. The witness replied that Hor came from the Central Zone. He was the Krouch Chhmar district chief and led the group of thirty people. Hor was first in charge of the fishing unit in Steung Trong region. Mr. Koumjian wanted to know how he knew that his name was Hor. He answered that one day, his father-in-law was called by Hor to help him in the fishing region. His father-in- law told him that his name was Hor. The witness had attended one meeting with Hor. Upon Hor’s arrival, Sim was arrested, and Han as well. Ya Yorb, the member of the Krouch Chhmar committee, was also arrested. They were the first three to be arrested. One of them, Ya Yorb, was Cham. He was part of the district committee and part of the fishing unit in Krouch Chhmar. The three individuals were sent to Steung Trong. He has not seen them since. Hor once convened the people in a meeting. One of Hor’s colleagues was also invited. They were told that they had to attend the meeting at the district office. The district office “was one use of the commune office.” However, “nothing happened in the meeting.” They were told to go to the district office “to attend a study session”, which they did. He did not know what happened to those who went to the district office, since they never returned. He has not seen them again. 2 / 16 Cambodia Tribunal Monitor http://www.cambodiatribunal.org Sim and Chhean were working in the commune office. Hor and his group came to work in the commune office. The old cadres who used to work in the commune office used their houses as their office. When Mr. Koumjian asked whether people from another area arrived in his village, Mr. Rumly recounted that some people were transported on an oxcart to Trea. These people were brought into the district office. This happened “immediately after the arrival of Hor.” This took place approximately in May 1978, but he was unsure about the month. The witness confirmed that Trea is on the Mekong River. Mr. Koumjian inquired where in relation to the river the district office was. He replied that it was near the river bank. The commune office was around 20 or 30 meters away from the river bank. Arrests Mr. Koumjian asked whether he knew what happened to those people who were taken to the district office. He replied that he saw “the hole where around twenty or thirty pits” were. He saw this after the liberation day of January 7 [1979]. He could not see this in 1978, since the area was flooded at the time. He saw “piles of bones” in the pits. The people who arrived on oxcarts were all ethnic Cham, according to the witness. This happened “for about ten days.” From his estimate, there were around 500 to 600 people, including children and adults. He did not know whether Hor had any contact with these people. Mr. Koumjian turned to the next topic and asked when Mr. Rumly fled Trea. He replied that he fled to nearby areas. He had heard that the East Zone had “branded us traitors”. Since they were afraid, they fled. He fled alone, but other cadres also fled. He fled to the forest. He was the only Cham who fled. Mr. Koumjian then inquired: “Sir, were you part of a conspiracy against Pol Pot?” He replied that he was not a core member and that he was simply an ordinary worker. He did not dare to protest. Mr. Koumjian asked whether anyone tried to recruit him in a conspiracy against Pol Pot, which Mr. Rumly denied. He fled “when Hor was about to arrive.” They did not dare to stay at the district office. Some escaped to their homes and some people fled to nearby areas. Mr. Koumjian asked for clarification, since Mr. Rumly had said that he had attended a meeting with Hor. Mr. Rumly recounted that when he returned, Meng was appointed, and three months later there was a meeting. He left Trea in late 1978. At that time, “we all fled into the forest, because we heard that the Khmer Rouge gathered people and walked away with them.” This was around one month before the Vietnamese arrived. Mr. Koumjian asked how many Cham people were living in the five Trea villages at the time. Mr. Rumly replied that he “could not estimate.” Mr. Koumjian set a different focus to the line of questions and turned to the treatment of the Cham. He asked whether he had ever heard someone talk about the Cham. He replied that 3 / 16 Cambodia Tribunal Monitor http://www.cambodiatribunal.org there was a regional security guard who wanted to meet Chhean at the time that Mr. Rumly worked under Chhean. The latter was gone at the time, so the security guard spent the afternoon with the witness. The security guard wanted to know what had happened to the Cham. Mr. Rumly had told him that they had been evacuated to the East Zone and that only 15% were left in the villages. “And he told me that those Cham people would be smashed.” Mr. Koumjian wanted to know whether this security person knew Mr. Rumly’s ethnicity at the time, which Mr. Rumly denied. Mr. Koumjian then asked whether Mr. Rumly knew “why there was a plan to smash the Cham.” The witness did not know. Mr. Koumjian asked when these 80-85% of Cham people had been transferred from Trea to the East Zone. He replied that they were told that they would be sent to Battambang province to harvest rice, since there would be enough to eat there. Mr. Koumjian asked whether the people were sent away before April 1975 or after. Mr. Rumly said that it was in late 1975.