LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 7431 OFFICIAL RECORD OF PROCEEDINGS Thursday, 28 May 2020 The Council continued to meet at Nine o'clock MEMBERS PRESENT: THE PRESIDENT THE HONOURABLE ANDREW LEUNG KWAN-YUEN, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JAMES TO KUN-SUN THE HONOURABLE LEUNG YIU-CHUNG THE HONOURABLE ABRAHAM SHEK LAI-HIM, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TOMMY CHEUNG YU-YAN, G.B.S., J.P. PROF THE HONOURABLE JOSEPH LEE KOK-LONG, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE JEFFREY LAM KIN-FUNG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG TING-KWONG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE STARRY LEE WAI-KING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAK-KAN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN KIN-POR, G.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PRISCILLA LEUNG MEI-FUN, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WONG KWOK-KIN, S.B.S., J.P. 7432 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 THE HONOURABLE MRS REGINA IP LAU SUK-YEE, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE PAUL TSE WAI-CHUN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CLAUDIA MO THE HONOURABLE STEVEN HO CHUN-YIN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE FRANKIE YICK CHI-MING, S.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE WU CHI-WAI, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YIU SI-WING, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE CHARLES PETER MOK, J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHI-CHUEN THE HONOURABLE CHAN HAN-PAN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE LEUNG CHE-CHEUNG, S.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LEUNG THE HONOURABLE ALICE MAK MEI-KUEN, B.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE KWOK KA-KI THE HONOURABLE KWOK WAI-KEUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE DENNIS KWOK WING-HANG THE HONOURABLE CHRISTOPHER CHEUNG WAH-FUNG, S.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE FERNANDO CHEUNG CHIU-HUNG DR THE HONOURABLE HELENA WONG PIK-WAN THE HONOURABLE IP KIN-YUEN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 7433 THE HONOURABLE ELIZABETH QUAT, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MARTIN LIAO CHEUNG-KONG, G.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE POON SIU-PING, B.B.S., M.H. DR THE HONOURABLE CHIANG LAI-WAN, S.B.S., J.P. IR DR THE HONOURABLE LO WAI-KWOK, S.B.S., M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE CHUNG KWOK-PAN THE HONOURABLE ALVIN YEUNG THE HONOURABLE ANDREW WAN SIU-KIN THE HONOURABLE CHU HOI-DICK THE HONOURABLE JIMMY NG WING-KA, B.B.S., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE JUNIUS HO KWAN-YIU, J.P. THE HONOURABLE HO KAI-MING THE HONOURABLE LAM CHEUK-TING THE HONOURABLE HOLDEN CHOW HO-DING THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-FAI, J.P. THE HONOURABLE SHIU KA-CHUN THE HONOURABLE WILSON OR CHONG-SHING, M.H. THE HONOURABLE YUNG HOI-YAN, J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE PIERRE CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHAN CHUN-YING, J.P. 7434 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 THE HONOURABLE TANYA CHAN THE HONOURABLE CHEUNG KWOK-KWAN, J.P. THE HONOURABLE HUI CHI-FUNG THE HONOURABLE LUK CHUNG-HUNG, J.P. THE HONOURABLE LAU KWOK-FAN, M.H. THE HONOURABLE KENNETH LAU IP-KEUNG, B.B.S., M.H., J.P. DR THE HONOURABLE CHENG CHUNG-TAI THE HONOURABLE KWONG CHUN-YU THE HONOURABLE JEREMY TAM MAN-HO THE HONOURABLE VINCENT CHENG WING-SHUN, M.H., J.P. THE HONOURABLE TONY TSE WAI-CHUEN, B.B.S. THE HONOURABLE CHAN HOI-YAN MEMBERS ABSENT: THE HONOURABLE MICHAEL TIEN PUK-SUN, B.B.S., J.P. THE HONOURABLE MA FUNG-KWOK, S.B.S., J.P. PUBLIC OFFICER ATTENDING: THE HONOURABLE ERICK TSANG KWOK-WAI, I.D.S.M., J.P. SECRETARY FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AND MAINLAND AFFAIRS LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 7435 CLERKS IN ATTENDANCE: MISS FLORA TAI YIN-PING, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MS DORA WAI, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL MR MATTHEW LOO, ASSISTANT SECRETARY GENERAL 7436 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 GOVERNMENT BILLS Second Reading of Government Bills Resumption of Second Reading Debate on Government Bill PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Honourable Members, at yesterday's meeting, Mr HUI Chi-fung set off a sound device and placed it at the air conditioner outlet above his seat, thereby disrupting the proceedings in the Council. I hereby give Mr HUI Chi-fung a warning. Please do not disrupt the proceedings in the Council again by setting off any sound device or creating other nuisances at Council meetings. Otherwise, I will regard such conduct as grossly disorderly, and will order Mr HUI Chi-fung to withdraw from the Council immediately in accordance with Rule 45(2) of the Rules of Procedure. I now make it clear in advance. Should any Member create similar nuisances at Council meetings, I will directly order the Member to withdraw from the Council immediately without any further warning. Mr Kenneth LEUNG, please speak. NATIONAL ANTHEM BILL Resumption of debate on Second Reading which was moved on 23 January 2019 MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, please do a headcount under Rule 17 of the Rules of Procedure first. PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will the Clerk please ring the bell to summon Members back to the Chamber. (While the summoning bell was ringing, a phone rang inside the Chamber) LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 7437 PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please switch their mobile phones to silent mode. (After the summoning bell had been rung, a number of Members returned to the Chamber) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr Kenneth LEUNG, please speak. MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, the most important consideration in examining whether a bill is fit for resumption of Second Reading debate is whether the bill is consistent with the spirit of the rule of law. As often noted by pro-establishment Members in the past year or two, after a bill is passed into a law under the rule of law principle, provided that members of the public abide by the law upon its implementation, the rule of law will be upheld. In my view, this is only one component of the entire rule of law concept. As to whether the National Anthem Bill ("the Bill") is consistent with the spirit of the law, it is essential to examine the purpose and social implications of the Bill, and the proportionality of the clauses thereof. Before I discuss the content of the Bill, I would like to briefly talk about the factors determining whether the society as a whole is equipped with a comprehensive rule of law system and the spirit of the rule of law. You may have heard about the difference between "rule of law" and "rule by law". In fact, apart from the social implications of primary legislations and the clarity of legal provisions, factors such as an independent judicial system, equality of all before the law, and easy access of the public to affordable legal assistance, etc., are indispensable components of the rule of law spirit. What is the purpose and spirit of the Bill? At the outset, the Bill promotes respect for the national anthem. However, what is "respect"? "Respect" is an ideology. Can respect for others be fostered by legislation alone? There is a colloquial expression in the Guangzhou dialect: "Respect is accorded by others; notoriety is brought on by oneself". Is it feasible to impose "respect" on members of the public, or should members of the public pay respect to the national anthem of their own accord? Let me cite an example. When we go to 7438 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 a concert, we will naturally sit quietly and listen to the music. We will listen quietly or stand up when we hear the national anthem of any country. I have noticed that in the Mainland … (Mr CHU Hoi-dick displayed a placard reading "Best Chairman Starry LEE" in his seat) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHU Hoi-dick, please leave the Chamber immediately. MR KENNETH LEUNG (in Cantonese): President, why? PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): As I said yesterday, no placard with insulting words shall be displayed. Mr CHU Hoi-dick, please leave the Chamber. (Mr CHU Hoi-dick stood up, holding the placard and speaking loudly; he did not withdraw from the Council as directed by the President. Security officers moved forward to assist him in leaving the Chamber) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Mr CHU Hoi-dick, please leave the Chamber. (Security officers continued to assist Mr CHU Hoi-dick in leaving the Chamber, but he refused to leave) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): I now suspend the meeting. 9:11 am Meeting suspended. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ― 28 May 2020 7439 10:15 am Council then resumed. (Mr WU Chi-wai yelled in his seat: "Beware of tripping, Andrew LEUNG!") PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please do not yell in their seats. (Mr CHAN Chi-chuen stood in an aisle of the Chamber and spoke loudly) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): Will Members please do not shout in their seats or while standing in the aisles. (Some Members indicated their intention to raise points of order) PRESIDENT (in Cantonese): First of all, please let me expound on some points of order. I believe you are fully aware that at the Council meeting held last week, some Members repeatedly used offensive and insulting language about Deputy President Ms Starry LEE. Both the Deputy President and I had repeatedly reminded Members and warned them against using those expressions again. In the end, the Deputy President and I had ruled the expressions to be offensive and insulting, and advised Members against using them again. As I clearly indicated last week, should any Member use such offensive or insulting expressions at Council meetings again, I would directly order the Member to withdraw from the Council immediately without any further warning.