Tuesday Volume 535 8 November 2011 No. 221 HOUSE OF COMMONS OFFICIAL REPORT PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) Tuesday 8 November 2011 £5·00 © Parliamentary Copyright House of Commons 2011 This publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through The National Archives website at www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/information-management/our-services/parliamentary-licence-information.htm Enquiries to The National Archives, Kew, Richmond, Surrey TW9 4DU; e-mail: [email protected] 143 8 NOVEMBER 2011 144 Mr Clarke: We are not denying access to justice for House of Commons anybody, but obviously a huge swathe of the population find it expensive to obtain justice and we have to ask Tuesday 8 November 2011 ourselves for which people the taxpayer should pay for access to justice. We have concentrated on the most important issues, in which there is a general public The House met at half-past Two o’clock interest in having people represented. It is wrong to represent changes in the way we pay lawyers and the amount that we pay as if we are somehow barring PRAYERS people from access to their legal rights. Graeme Morrice: Does the Lord Chancellor not feel [MR SPEAKER in the Chair] that the cut in the civil legal aid budget, which will clearly have a detrimental impact on the citizens advice BUSINESS BEFORE QUESTIONS bureau and law centre network, will hinder the notion of the big society? LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES BILL [LORDS] Mr Clarke: Legal aid is not the principal source of Consideration of Bill, as amended, opposed and deferred public funding support for citizens advice bureaux, and until Tuesday 15 November (Standing Order No. 20). legal aid changes will not take effect until 2013. Those and other voluntary bodies are taking a big hit from the LONDON LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND TRANSPORT FOR reduction of local authority and other grants. For that LONDON (NO.2)BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) reason, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has already announced £27 million of continued funding for citizens advice bureaux, and we have set up TRANSPORT FOR LONDON (SUPPLEMENTAL TOLL a transitional fund for the voluntary sector to manage PROVISIONS)BILL [LORDS](BY ORDER) the transition to a tighter funding environment. We Second Readings opposed and deferred until Tuesday have £20 million set aside this year to support voluntary 15 November (Standing Order No. 20). bodies through their present difficulties, which are mainly because of local government cuts. Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con): I very Oral Answers to Questions much welcome the Government’s commitment to the extra funding for welfare and benefits advice, but will my right hon. and learned Friend update us on what progress he has made with the Cabinet Office about the JUSTICE allocation of those funds? Mr Clarke: My hon. Friend has rightly been chasing The Secretary of State was asked— me on this subject, and with her I have approached the Cabinet Office. My right hon. Friend the Minister of Legal Aid (Social Welfare) State, Cabinet Office, hopes to make an announcement shortly about the distribution of the money. As the sort 1. Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab): What of people we are talking about need the general advice assessment his Department has made of the potential offered by such voluntary bodies, I very much hope that effects on other Government Departments of his he will soon make an announcement on behalf of the planned reductions to legal aid for social welfare law. Government. [78951] Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD): Is it not 4. Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab): What assessment clear that what most people will need with these changes his Department has made of the potential effects on is well-supported advice services, a user-friendly tribunal other Government Departments of his planned reductions system, and Government Departments that give people to legal aid for social welfare law. [78955] what they are entitled to in the first place? The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice Mr Clarke: Yes, I entirely agree. That is what I hope (Mr Kenneth Clarke): The impact assessment published we can deliver. The number of mistakes made by bodies alongside the Government’s response to consultation that distribute funds, which result in appeals to tribunal, lays out the best estimates of the costs and benefits of is obviously far too high. the legal aid reforms. Ultimately, costs to other Departments will be driven by behavioural responses to the changes, Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab): Last week and these are very difficult to predict with any real the Secretary of State confirmed that he was taking accuracy. legal aid away from brain-damaged children and disabled people unlawfully denied benefits. In answer Julie Elliott: I thank the Secretary of State for that to questions from my hon. Friend the Member for answer. Is it his Government’s view that it is acceptable Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), the Minister for a whole swathe of the population to have no access with responsibility for legal aid, the hon. Member for to justice in the area of social welfare law? Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), admitted that the Department 145 Oral Answers8 NOVEMBER 2011 Oral Answers 146 of Health pays up to £183 an hour for legal advice, Ombudsman Service and UCAS. Additionally, we intend Work and Pensions pays £201 an hour and Communities to extend the Act to over 100 more organisations through and Local Government pays £288 an hour. Some of the Protection of Freedoms Bill. We have also begun those well-paid Government lawyers will be up against consultations with more than 200 further bodies about our unrepresented constituents, especially on appeal. their possible inclusion. Next year we plan to consult Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman think that 2,000 housing associations and the housing ombudsman. that is fair? Simon Wright: I thank the Minister for his response Mr Clarke: Most of those do not get legal aid now, and for the progress made by his Department. As he and most personal injury cases are not brought using knows, Network Rail is responsible for spending billions legal aid. They are brought using no win, no fee of pounds of public money each year. Will he ensure arrangements. As the hon. Gentleman knows, in the that that organisation is brought within the scope of the new proposals for how no win, no fee ought to work, we Freedom of Information Act? have made special arrangements for particularly difficult cases and the insurance of the costs of medical reports. Mr Djanogly: The Government are committed to making Network Rail more accountable to its customers, Young Offender Institutions and believe that there is a strong case for its inclusion in the FOI. 2. Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD): What steps he is taking to ensure the provision of adequate Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op): Community legal advice in young offender institutions. [78952] organisations often have a great deal of trouble getting information out of local councils via the Freedom of The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice Information Act. What plans does the Minister have to (Mr Crispin Blunt): The training requirement to carry make the Act as currently drawn, with the organisations out the Prison Service order requiring legal services currently included, work better? officers to be available in every prison, including young offender institutions, could not be delivered. In future, Mr Djanogly: If the hon. Lady has problems to be governors will be required to give prisoners information addressed, she should write to the Ministry of Justice on how to access legal advice as part of their induction and we will take them up. into custody. The Prison Service order will be promulgated before the end of the year. Juvenile offender institutions Victim Support have discrete advocacy services available for prisoners under 18 years old. 5. Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con): What steps his Department is taking to provide support for victims; Greg Mulholland: I thank the Minister for that answer. and if he will make a statement. [78956] Last year a study of 25 young offender institutions and 300 requests for legal help from young people showed The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice that 80% of those struggling to access legal advice were (Mr Kenneth Clarke): In the current financial year the from a black and ethnic minority background, and Ministry of Justice is providing funding of approximately 9% were female, which is disproportionate when compared £50 million to voluntary sector organisations that support with the general population. What plan do the Government victims of crime. Before Christmas we intend to launch have to tackle that? a consultation on proposals that will ensure that victims of crime are supported in the best way possible. Mr Blunt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend for bringing that to my attention. We will examine the new arrangements Sajid Javid: Too many victims of crime in my for induction into custody and the advocacy services constituency feel that their rights are put behind those available to make sure that any suggested discrimination of criminals. Will my right hon. and learned Friend that is happening will not be allowed to recur. please share with me what measures he proposes to take to correct that sense of injustice? Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab): Will the Minister agree to meet me and other interested groups to discuss Mr Clarke: Apart from continuing to give support to the issue? The only way to combat the high level of victims organisations, as I said, we are about to implement discrimination is to be able to discuss it with those the Prisoners Earnings Act 1996, which will see up to concerned.