REVIEW OF THE FUNCTIONING OF TYNWALD LORD LISVANE KCB DL HANSARD Douglas, Monday, 16th May 2016 LLR, No. 1 All published Hansard Reports for the Lord Lisvane Review can be found on the Isle of Man Government website: https://www.gov.im/about-the-government/offices/cabinet-office/ review-of-the-functioning-of-tynwald/ All ‘Listen Again’ audio files can be found on the Tynwald website: http://www.tynwald.org.im/business/listen/Pages/default.aspx Published by the Office of the Clerk of Tynwald, Legislative Buildings, Finch Road, Douglas, Isle of Man, IM1 3PW. © High Court of Tynwald, 2016 TYNWALD REVIEW, MONDAY, 16th MAY 2016 Present: Chairman: Lord Lisvane KCB DL Secretary: Miss Michelle Norman [Senior Legal Officer (Advisory), Civil Division, Attorney General’s Chambers] Contents Opening address .............................................................................................................................. 3 EVIDENCE OF Hon. Stephen C RODAN BSc (Hons) MRPharm S SHK, The Speaker of the House of Keys and Member for Garff ............................................................... 4 EVIDENCE OF Hon. Clare M Christian BSc MLC, The President of Tynwald .............................................................................................................. 17 EVIDENCE OF Rt Rev Robert Mar Erskine PATERSON MA MLC, The Lord Bishop of Sodor and Man ............................................................................................... 28 EVIDENCE OF Mr G Ralph Peake MHK, Member for Douglas North ............................................................................................................ 36 __________________________________________________________________ 2 LLR TYNWALD REVIEW, MONDAY, 16th MAY 2016 Review of the functioning of Tynwald The hearing of oral evidence was held in public at 10.00 a.m. in the Legislative Council Chamber, Legislative Buildings, Douglas [LORD LISVANE in the Chair] Opening address 5 The Chairman (Lord Lisvane): Good morning. Before I begin taking oral evidence as part of my review, I thought that, for the record, it would be helpful to say something about how I intend to go about the task. My terms of reference are explicitly on the parliamentary aspects of governance. I am to examine the functions of the Branches of Tynwald, assess their efficacy, consider the scrutiny 10 structure required by the parliament and recommend any options for reform. I have received a number of communications from members of the public about wider issues of governance and policy, but these largely fall outside my terms of reference, although they may be helpful in adding to the context; and, of course, I have had a great number of submissions which are squarely within my terms of reference. 15 I have already spent time going through a substantial bibliography helpfully compiled for me by the Library of Tynwald, and I will now be proceeding by hearing oral evidence as well as receiving written submissions. I welcome written submissions within my terms of reference from anyone, and although the programme of oral evidence is filling up I will decide whether to invite someone who has submitted written evidence to expand upon it orally. 20 I want my review to be as open and accessible as possible. There are pages on the Tynwald website which give contact details and the programme of oral evidence, and that is where the Hansard of the oral evidence and written submissions are posted; and the oral evidence sessions will be live-streamed on the web. Although I am asked to recommend any options for reform, I should make it clear that I have 25 no agenda and no preconceptions and I will certainly make no recommendations for change unless I think it necessary and merited. It may be helpful if I say a word or two about my perspective and experience. I was in the service of the House of Commons for 42 years, gaining experience in every aspect of parliamentary activity. During my career I visited more than 50 parliaments worldwide observing 30 their working methods and I was on attachment to several. I also worked for three international parliamentary assemblies. I experienced local politics and governance through being a co-opted member of a county council, of a regional police authority and of a regional fire and rescue authority. From 2011 to 2014 I was the Clerk of the House of Commons, the principal constitutional 35 adviser to the House and adviser on all its procedure and business. I was also Chief Executive of the House of Commons Service of some 2,000 people. I am the joint author of the standard textbook How Parliament Works, now in its seventh edition. In 2014 I became an independent cross-bench Member of the House of Lords and in that 40 House I specialise in constitutional, legal and parliamentary issues as well as advising parliaments and governments all over the world. __________________________________________________________________ 3 LLR TYNWALD REVIEW, MONDAY, 16th MAY 2016 As I say, I want my review to be as open and accessible as possible, and I am happy to answer any questions about its process but I will not be drawn on matters of substance. Those are for my report, which I will submit to the Isle of Man Government next month. 45 Thank you very much. I will suspend the sitting until 10.30, when we will resume to hear evidence from the Speaker of the House of Keys. The hearing was suspended at 10.04 a.m. and resumed at 10.30 a.m. EVIDENCE OF Hon. Stephen C RODAN BSc (Hons) MRPharm S SHK, The Speaker of the House of Keys and Member for Garff The Chairman (Lord Lisvane): As it is exactly half past 10, shall we start? Do I begin by saying: moghrey mie, Loayreyder? (Laughter) 50 The Speaker: Moghrey mie, Lord Lisvane! Q1. Lord Lisvane: We have got this slightly less formal set-up and, I hope, a rather conversational exchange. Just to make the process clear, our proceedings are being live- streamed on the web. Hansard will be recording the sessions, and those, of course, in due 55 course, will also appear on Tynwald’s web pages. I would hope that in the hour and 20 minutes or so that we have got at our disposal we will be able to cover any areas of interest – or all areas of interest – to you. But I wonder if I can just start with a general scene-setting question, which is that one of the things that has struck me very powerfully is the closeness of electors, of the public, to the 60 political process on the one hand, but on the other the lack of party politics and party structures and things of that sort. So I would be very interested in your thoughts about how that affects the political process here. The Speaker: Yes, historically the Isle of Man has been a system based on independents 65 standing for election rather than political parties. There are political parties currently and there have been parties set up in the past which have been attempted and failed. There seems to be very little appetite on the part of the Manx public for a party-political structure. I think there are several reasons for that, one being that the smallness of the place would appear to mitigate against clear-cut divisions that parties would represent, and historically they have not really 70 succeeded. Members of the House of Keys are very close to their electors; the electorates are very small, an average of around 2,000 per elected Member of the House of Keys. So whether party politics would work is debatable. There are very strong arguments to have such a system, the main one being that, in advance of an election, policy positions are clearly 75 defined and the collective drawing together of those policy positions chart a potential programme for government, rather than the system we have at the moment, where there is absolutely no certainty that ... It is a bit of a blind-date relationship between the public and the elected representatives: you do not know exactly what you are going to get until an administration has been formed post-election. Under a party structure, of course, the leader of 80 the successful party is chosen by the parliament automatically as the leader of the government; here, it is not clear in advance of an election who will actually lead the administration. So there are good arguments to have a party system, in my opinion, but the size of the place with the number of constituencies that we have might make it rather more difficult. It can be __________________________________________________________________ 4 LLR TYNWALD REVIEW, MONDAY, 16th MAY 2016 done. Small jurisdictions – Gibraltar, for example, which is much smaller than us, has one 85 constituency electing, I think, 12 Members. Q2. Lord Lisvane: I suppose, just to play devil’s advocate for a moment, you avoid the situation where a candidate has to have this constant compromise between the views of the party and the views of the individual. 90 The Speaker: Yes, I think there is a lot to be said for strong independent voices. A party structure introduces constraints on individuals and it is quite difficult to break out of that structure. A lot of the constitutional reform in the past has come about by determined individuals and their power of persuasion over their fellow independent Members. 95 We in the Isle of Man I think are incredibly lucky, in that it is possible for any individual Member to table for debate a subject of public importance in Tynwald and it will be debated. We do not have ballots, we do not have guillotines, there are no constraints – because of our size – such as Members who might want to bring in private legislation, let us say, who find it very difficult in larger jurisdictions where there is parliamentary time to consider and the imperatives 100 of the parties’ own priorities.