Vol. 718 Monday No. 60 22 March 2010 PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDER OF BUSINESS Introductions: Lord Hall of Birkenhead and Lord Kakkar Questions Egypt Defence: Nimrod Crash Taxation: Personal Residence Diamond Jubilee Railways: National Express Franchises Private Notice Question Business of the House Motion to Refer to Grand Committee Children, Schools and Families Bill Order of Consideration Motion Building Regulations (Amendment) Bill [HL] Report Powers of Entry etc. Bill [HL] Report Anti-Slavery Day Bill Order of Commitment Discharged House Committee: Third Report Motion to Agree Norwich and Norfolk (Structural Changes) Order 2010 Exeter and Devon (Structural Changes) Order 2010 Motions to Approve Written Statements Written Answers For column numbers see back page £3·50 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. 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All prices are inclusive of postage. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2010, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Parliamentary Click-Use Licence, available online through the Office of Public Sector Information website at www.opsi.gov.uk/click-use/ 747 Introduction: Lord Hall of Birkenhead[22 MARCH 2010] Egypt 748 Lord Brett: My Lords, in 2008 we welcomed the House of Lords decision of the Egyptian courts to allow the Baha’i to Monday, 22 March 2010. have identification documents that give no indication of their religious affiliation. We are encouraging further 2.30 pm efforts and we welcome the pursuit and subsequent arrests in respect of the fatal shootings at Nag Hammadi. Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Liverpool. While the Egyptian Government have accepted some 111 of the 165 recommendations made in the universal Introduction: Lord Hall of Birkenhead periodic review, we continue to press our concerns and 2.38 pm stand ready to support Egypt and its Government in taking forward any of the UPR recommendations. Anthony William Hall CBE, having been created Baron Hall of Birkenhead, of Birkenhead in the County of Lord Archer of Sandwell: My Lords, will my noble Cheshire, was introduced and took the oath, supported friend confirm that Muslims in Egypt who convert to by Lord Puttnam and Lord Moser. another religion are routinely subjected to arrest and torture and are prevented from taking refuge in any Introduction: Lord Kakkar other country? While I recognise the work that the Government have done on this matter, would they 2.44 pm consider inviting our colleagues in Europe to discuss joint action? Ajay Kumar Kakkar, having been created Baron Kakkar, of Loxbeare in the County of Devon, was introduced Lord Brett: My Lords, I cannot confirm the detail and took the oath, supported by Lord Higgins and Lord on my noble and learned friend’s question, but I know Patel. that there is an issue. The European Union has an ongoing dialogue with the Government of Egypt on Egypt human rights; the European Neighbourhood Policy discusses human rights and there was a meeting on Question 10 and 11 March. I will certainly take up his points 2.49 pm and respond to him. Asked By Baroness Cox Lord Wallace of Saltaire: My Lords, the Minister To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they mentioned the EU’s dialogue with Egypt on democracy will make representations to the Government of and human rights, but what is Britain doing to promote Egypt regarding recent attacks on Christian democracy and human rights in that country? Egypt is communities and reports of discrimination against clearly stuck—in many ways, it has gone backwards in religious minorities. the past 10 years—on these issues. Are we working actively with the EU? Are we providing aid and technical Lord Brett: My Lords, the United Kingdom assistance ourselves to help to strengthen civil institutions Government condemn all instances of discrimination in Egypt? and persecution against individuals and groups because of their religion or belief. In January, my honourable Lord Brett: My Lords, as I said, the European friend Ivan Lewis, Foreign Office Minister for North Union has an ongoing dialogue with the Government Africa and the Middle East, raised the subject of the of Egypt, as do the United Kingdom Government. fatal shooting in Nag Hammadi with the Egyptian The European Neighbourhood Policy action plan creates Minister of the Interior. In February, during the United a political sub-committee to take forward and provide Nations Human Rights Council universal periodic a framework for dialogue on human rights. We were review of Egypt, we encouraged further Egyptian active in the universal periodic review of Egypt in efforts to reduce and prevent discrimination in society February. We called for the Egyptian Government to on the grounds of an individual’s religion or belief. review and amend legislation on freedom of association, The protection of human rights is a central component freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, and religion, of Egypt’s ongoing dialogue with the European Union. and to ensure full compatibility with Egypt’s international obligations—which we share—as a member of the Baroness Cox: My Lords, I thank the Minister for United Nations Human Rights Council. that encouraging reply, but is he aware that, while Lord Elton: My Lords, the Minister will be aware of welcome concessions have recently been made with reports that, since 1981, no fewer than 400 Christians regard to the Baha’i community, great concern remains have been assassinated in Egypt, at an average of 13 a among the Coptic Christians, who have recently, on year. How many convictions have there been of those 12 March, suffered more violent attacks? Is he also committing such atrocities? He will have seen the aware that the recent report of the US Commission on report that, as recently as 22 February in Dayrut, a International Religious Freedom claims that the Egyptian Christian was shot 30 times and his head was paraded Government’s, around the village. Four Muslims were in court about “respect for freedoms of … religion remained poor”? that incident. The result is in—acquittal. What comments Will Her Majesty’s Government therefore urge the does the Minister make on those facts? Egyptian Government to do much more to protect the security and fundamental religious freedoms of all Lord Brett: My Lords, my first comment is that I their citizens, as they are obliged to do under the am not aware of the detail of the case that the noble Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Lord raises, but I shall certainly look into it. It is true 749 Egypt[LORDS] Defence: Nimrod Crash 750 [LORD BRETT] Lord Brett: My Lords, I would love to be able to that in the Coptic Christian community there is a give the right reverend Prelate the assurance that he sense of being under greater and greater threat. I am seeks. We do press the Egyptian Government, who told that this has come about in the last few years and have taken the matter seriously and offered assurances that some years ago relations were much better between as recently as January, in a meeting with my honourable the Sunni Muslim majority and the Coptic Christian friend Ivan Lewis, about protection of the Christian minority. The situation has been exacerbated by some community. We have to translate those commitments of the issues raised by noble Lords. We continue to into action on the ground and we continue to make press the Government of Egypt on all occasions, both that endeavour on all occasions. through the European Union and individually, to recognise human rights and the need to promote Defence: Nimrod Crash democracy. That is in the interests of that country and it is the acknowledged wish of that country. We must Question help Egypt to achieve it in a way that saves rather than 2.58 pm squanders lives. Asked By Lord Ramsbotham Lord Foulkes of Cumnock: Will my noble friend To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether there confirm that the Westminster Foundation for Democracy has been any change to the position regarding has been active over the past few years in working with General Sir Sam Cowan and Air Chief Marshal Sir the Egyptian Parliament on programmes to promote Malcolm Pledger and the allegations made against democracy? Will he discuss with his colleagues in the them in the Haddon-Cave report on the Nimrod Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Department XV230 crash.