The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project Information Series CLAUDE "CLIFF" GROCE Interviewed by: Jack O'Brien Initial interview date: February 8, 1988 Copyrig t 1998 ADST TABLE OF CONTENTS Entrance into OA (Through the Department of State) 1950 Early Assignment: Special Events Office in (ashington while OA Headquarters (as Still in New ,or- .roce Transferred to Motion Picture Service. 1uits .overnment (or- Significant Special Assignments Preceding 2esignation Interlude as .raduate Student 3Music 4SA5 6 Means of 2eaching ,outh in 4SS2 Director .eorge . Allen7s desire for E8panded English 9anguage :roadcasting :irth, Nature, and Purpose of Special English The 3Forum5 Program 1958: Munich 2adio is Changed from Direct Program Origination and :roadcasting to a Program Center 2eturn to OA: Deputy Chief, Program :ranch, English 9anguage Division Turf :attles between Program 4nits New Show: The 3Have ,ou :een Told5 Program :eamed to 4SS2. Ed Murrow Spices 4p First :roadcast Murrow7s Deputies (ere a Trial for OA 1 OA During Cuban Missile Crisis 1962 OA on Occasion of Aennedy Assassination .roce :ecomes OA Deputy Program Manager Special 3Characters5 in OA Special Monitoring of OA 9anguages Problem of Mi8ing Foreign Service and Civil Service Personnel in OA Bobs Effect of OA of Policy Changes Made by Changing Personnel at Top of 4SIA and OA Misunderstandings 9eading to .roce7s Departure from OA Acting Director of T Service From T to Press Service Discussion of (hether OA Should be Independent INTERVIEW %: Cliff, if you will begin, please, by identifying yourself, your full name, address, serial number, and anyt ing else t at establis es w o you are. T at's t e way to begin, per aps. Entrance Into OA (Through Department of State): 1950 .2OCE: My full name, regrettably, is Claude :ethany .roce, which is why I adopted the name Cliff many years ago when I went into radio. I decided, while I was still in college, that I wanted to wor- for the oice of America, and so after getting a degree in radio broadcasting, I went bac- and got another degree in international relations. I applied for an internship in the Department of State, hoping to wor- for the OA, which was then a part of the Department of State, and was fortunate enough to be chosen as an alternate, and then wound up getting into the program. I began wor- September 18, 1950, had three wor- assignments as an intern, first in the :ureau of European Affairs, the Division of East European Affairs, which was the bac-stop for the OA. My second wor- assignment was in the :ureau of .erman Affairs, 2 and the third was with the oice in its (ashington branch, in the penthouse of the Interior :uilding in (ashington. %: So you reported for duty to t e Voice, tec nically, on w at date again? .2OCE: April 7, 1951 was my first day as an intern. Buly 9 was my first day as a regular employee. Early Assignment: Special Events Office in (ashington (hile OA Headquarters was Still in New ,or- %: , at was your first job at t e Voice? .2OCE: I was a Special Events Officer. At that time, I started as a .SE6. The (ashington branch consisted of a Special Events unit, a news unit, and some specialiFed writers. %: At t at time, of course, t e ead.uarters was in New 0ork. .2OCE: Headquarters was in New ,or-. So we were a very small, 18Epeople adjunct of the OA in New ,or-. There were two people in 1778, as it was then, Pennsylvania Avenue, attached to the IPS news operation, who wrote newscasts for broadcasts from (ashington or transmission by teletype from (ashington to the New ,or- newsroom. (e did two live newscasts a day from (ashington. The first day I was on duty, I was given the responsibility of broadcasting a 15Eminute newscast to Europe in the afternoon, our time, evening European time. I hadnGt been on the air in many months, and I was scared to death broadcasting to this -ind of an audience, and it went off without a hitch. (e covered the Hill, we covered the departments, especially the State Department, obviously, in support of program elements in the foreign languages and English. %: Do you remember, Cliff, eit er t e first or one of t e first special events you covered? .2OCE: Oh, dear. I can remember highlights of the periodH I canGt remember the first. Oh, yes, I doI I remember the first interview I did was with the lobbyistEEor a lobbyistEEfor the potato industry in the 4nited States. J9aughterK %: 12aug ter3 Sounds e4citing. .2OCE: :ecause one of the programs that the New ,or- office was engaged in at the time was a study of how Americans, as private citiFens, influence and affect the operations of the government that serves them. They wanted a lobbyist in the process, and, C of course, (ashington is the home of most of the lobbyists. So that was the first guy, now that you remind me. I thin- the second person I interviewed was Howard Mitchell, music director of the National Symphony Orchestra, who was a princely gentleman, a very fine cello player, and an absolutely lousy orchestra director. %: Special Events led to w at? .roce Transferred to Motion Picture Service 1uits .overnment (or- .2OCE: I was in that job until the summer of 195C, when there came a gigantic 2IF in the information program. Bohn Foster Dulles had made it clear that he did not want anything to do with the information programH he wanted it out from under the State Department. Two studies were going on simultaneously in the e8ecutive branch of the government to come up with some alternative means of using this institution. It had been decided that a separate agency for information purposes would be set up on August 1, 195C. In the big 2IF, I was transferred. I was not 2IFed because I had permanent status, but I was transferred to the Motion Picture Service of the State Department, IIA at that time, the International Information Administration. I had been a .SE7 by the time I left OA, although IGd been doing a .SE12 job, so I had been treated li-e one of the family. Suddenly, I found myself bac- in an almost clerical role in another part of the information program, and I was very unhappy in that role. So I decided to quit and go bac- to California, and I gave my two wee-sG notice. They were very nice people wor-ing in the Motion Picture ServiceH it had nothing to do with the professional caliber of the people, but I just was in an unhappy position in that organiFation. So I chose, rather than to stay in that reassignment, to quit. Significant Special Assignments Preceding 2esignation %: Cliff, in reviewing your career so far, are t ere some instances t at stand out of good doing, of poor doing? .2OCE: There were a number of interesting developments during this period. Of course, it was the beginning of the McCarthy era, but quite aside from that, since that was really affecting the New ,or- operation of the oice, the coverage of the Hill was one of the most interesting aspects. This is before we had a bureau. (e were on sufferance, so that if we were using a booth, normally we would be assigned to the Mutual :roadcasting System booth to do our OA recordings. 4 I shall never forget one time I was interviewing a senator, and about two minutes into the interview, the Mutual reporter showed up to do a twoEminute spot, and we had to get out of the booth, and I lost my interview because the guy wasnGt going to stay around that long. There was another time in which I had tried to get Senator Theodore Francis .reene of 2hode Island. 2emember himM %: 0es, indeed. .2OCE: He wound up staying until he was 96 years old or so. I scheduled him for an interview, and I had given him a time of C:C0 for the appointment. (ell, in the meantime, while I was going around trying to find other senators to interview, Senator .reene showed up at C:00 in the Senate radioET gallery. So when I got bac- about 25 minutes after C:00, ready to greet him at C:C0 when he was due to arrive, he was sitting there in an absolute huff. I e8plained that IGd been see-ing Senator SoEandEso and Senator SoEandEso, and I thought our agreement was for C:C0, and he stood up to his 4G8N height and said, N:ut I am a senator, tooIN J9aughterK I thin- one of the most interesting e8periences I had during this period was in interviewing Bean Monnet, who was here for a conference. %: ,ill you identify im for t e benefit of t e readers? .2OCE: Bean Monnet was the father of European unity, in effect. He built the coal and steel community, and he was just one of the great men of a potentially united Europe. He was staying at the French Embassy while he was here for this meeting, and I scheduled an interview for 9:00 oGcloc- in the morning, the only time he could give me. The engineer and I arrived at the front door of the French Embassy and were ushered in by a butler, standing in the lobby of the place. And bounding down the curving stairway came a massive blac- French poodle, and I feared for our lives, but he was brought under control by the butler.