Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 1 IMPORTANT Every effort is made to ensure the accuracy of this transcript, however no transcript is an exact translation of the spoken word, and this document is intended to be a guide to the original recording, not replace it. THIS TRANSCRIPT IS STILL IN DRAFT FORM THE NATIONAL LIFE STORY COLLECTION INTERVIEW SUMMARY SHEET Ref. No.: C466/102/10-16(1CD0209051-52) Playback No.: 1CD0209051; 1CD0209052 Collection title: Artists’ Lives Interviewee’s surname: Knowles Title: Mr Interviewee’s forenames: Justin Sex: Male Occupation: Date of birth: 19.11.1935 Mother’s occupation: Father’s occupation: Date(s) of recording: 30.07.2001; 31.07.2001 Location of interview: Interviewee’s home, Devon Name of interviewer: Keith Chapman Type of recorder: Marantz CP430 Total no. of tapes: Type of tape: Mono or stereo: Stereo Speed: N/A Noise reduction: Dolby B Original or copy: Original Additional material: Copyright/Clearance: Full clearance Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 2 [Track 1 Side A] [transcriber tape 1A] Could you tell me when and where you were born? Exeter, 19 November 1935. From the date, you’ll see that I was really a war childhood; by that it means I was moved around. As my father was in the Territorial Army and was called up, and my mother was left alone, there was a divorce involved, she marrying a regular officer in the Royal Signals, whose name was Webb, he retired as a lieutenant colonel. And my memories really were being shunted around from grandparent to grandparent. Tell me about the first house that you do actually remember. I think what I do remember is being with my grandmother in Totnes, who was separated from my grandfather. Most dynamic memory was being taken away in an ambulance, because I had diphtheria, and at that time it was considered to be a difficult disease, and put in an isolation hospital. Apparently, Totnes Council had a meeting about it. And I remember all my toys being burnt, and, I mean I was taken to this ambulance screaming, and that wasn’t much of a beginning. I must have been about, maybe five. I’m not, I’m not very good with dates or timing or names or anything. That’s OK. Mm. The house in Totnes, can you describe that from the outside? Yes, it was a, a bungalow, and, she loved fuchsias, the whole garden was full of fuchsias. A large bungalow? Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 3 No. It was... My grandfather who was called a weird name, quite a character also, he was chairman of Dartmouth Council at one point, was called Finch Portman Ingram[???], and, they separated, and he bought my grandmother this bungalow at Totnes. And my grandmother was quite, quite devoted to me really. And because of the war, and because I, you know, had no stability, I was shunted from one grandparent to the other. So the first house you actually lived in, shall we say on a permanent basis, with your parents, tell me about that. Or was there never a permanent house? I never remember living with my parents together ever. You don’t? No. My father was very involved in the Army, Territorial Army somewhere[???], and then the war came, and then he disappeared. And my father was a complete stranger to me. I never heard anything in the period of the war from him whatsoever, not even a letter, or anything. And during that time my mother divorced, and, it was quite sort of complicated, because, although I was living with Mother basically, for some legal reason, which apparently wouldn’t be allowed today, my father had custody of me, although I was living with my mother throughout the war, and when my father came back he sort of claimed me back with his new wife and so on. And both of them were complete strangers, and that was a very traumatic experience. I would have thought in those days the mother would always get custody, but, that was not the case? No, not then. Why was that? She went[???]... It’s to do with the particular judge or situation at the time, you know. Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 4 OK. If we move on to your grandparents, on... Mm. Your grandparents on your father’s side to start with. Mm. That grandfather. Mm. What was his name? William Knowles. William Knowles. Mm. Do you know when he was born? No. He was a very modest man. He was a manager of a sawmill at Trebartha, which is near North Hill, near Launceston in Cornwall. And, they come from very a strong Methodist kind of, chapel background. Where they were is...there’s no road that can go any further. It’s on Bodmin Moor. And he used to walk, walk to work every day, which is what, four, five miles to the sawmill and back to the cottage, Mill Cottage, Trebartha. And, I used to spend all my holidays there. What do you remember about that cottage? Well it was just, it’s, you know, stone-built. They had no electricity, no gas or anything like that. And I remember the, you know, their larder, no fridge of course, and the larder was just outside. My grandfather and grandmother were very modest Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 5 themselves. The postman used to come, if there was anything for them, which was not often, on a pony, because he was delivering the stuff on the moor. But that, at that time during the war, they had some land girls who rather adopted me, because they were working in the woods, taking the wood out, you know, for the sawmill and things like that, and they used to pull the, pull the wood out with horses and so on. Did the family all come from Trebartha, your grandparents and their parents et cetera? My whole family comes from the West Country. So what did your grandfather look like? He was quite critical of my father actually. I mean he was very, he was very unpretentious. Yes. Unpretentious. And they used to come, when I went to school at Tavistock, they used to come and collect me, because we had what was called, every so often we had red letter Sundays, and, and I was always sent back with half a crown, and usually a chocolate cake. And they made a big effort; it must have cost them a lot of money for them doing a sort of, a lunch at their place. And, it’s...the whole thing’s very significant to me, because, you know, it was...the landscape’s so beautiful, very... In fact I think they’re now listing all the trees down there, and it’s very important landscape, it’s in this valley, river and so on. And, I was very much on my own, but, I think it’s quite a formative, formative part of my life really. I think, I think, I think the interrelationship of my father and my grandparents were remote. Why was that? Different philosophies. I prefer my grandparents’ philosophy, simplicity and honesty. My father was more ambitious. Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 6 Was he dishonest? No no, certainly not, but, but he had pretensions really. They would be regarded as working class, would they? [hesitates] Heavily respected. I mean for instance, being a manager of an old- fashioned sawmill that’s probably employing at that time about twelve, fifteen people, plus the, the logging going on in the estate and so on, Trebartha estate, he would be respected, but he had no pretensions whatsoever. So he actually earned a reasonable living? He earned a living, yes. I think he was given it by the estate, this cottage, and presumably he must have had a wage. I know, I was very upset when he died that my father decided to, there would be[???] a few things they had left, were sold at Launceston market. For next to nothing? Well, for very little I imagine. But, you know, I thought it was very, a bit insensitive. Did you visit the sawmill? Certainly did, yes. Yes? Mm. What was it like? Old steam engine. Whacking around was a long band driver[???] machine, cutting the stuff up. I had no idea at that time what the function of the product was, but... Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 7 And what was the function? Again it’s during the war, so... Yes. Maybe it’s for pits, or...or...just timber generally. Because they had access to great resources from that point[???]. How did he treat the staff? Oh he was a very mild-mannered, generous man. Did he get a reasonable pension when he retired? No, certainly not, no. No? You’re talking about times when pensions didn’t really exist. What about his religious beliefs? Well both of them came from, he was a Methodist, so he never drank or, he never swore, or... He didn’t drink ever, not at Christmas, at no time? Never, no. But... And also, my grandmother, she was a, comes from a Plymouth Brethren background, and that was even more severe. Mm. Did he smoke? Justin Knowles DRAFT C466/102/01A Page 8 No. No? No. So what were his vices, did he...he didn’t have any? No. Not as far as I know. Right. I can’t think of any.