ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba STANDING COMMITTEE on PRIVILEGES and ELECTIONS 31-32 Elizabeth 11 Chairman Mr. Phi/ Eyler Constituency of River East VOL. XXXI No. 63 - 2:00 p.m., SATURDAY, 28 JANUARY, 1984. Printed by the Office of the 0.-ns Printer. Province of Allltliloba . MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name Constituency Party ADAM,Hon. A.R. (Pete) Ste. Rose NDP ANSTET� Hon. Andy Spnngfield NDP ASHTON, Steve Thompson NDP BANMAN,Robert (Bob) La Verendrye PC BLAKE,David R. (Dave) Minnedosa PC BROWN, Arnold Rhineland PC BUCKLASCHUK,Hon. John M. Gimli NDP CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. Brandon West IND CORRIN, Q.C., Brian Ellice NDP COWAN, Hon. Jay Churchill NDP DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent St. Boniface NDP DODICK,Doreen Riel NDP DOERN, Russell Elm wood NDP DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth Kildonan NDP DOWNEY, James E. Arthur PC DRIEDGER, Albert Emerson PC ENNS, Harry Lakeside PC EVANS,Hon. Leonard S. Brandon East NDP EYLER,Phil River East NDP FILMON, Gary Tu xedo PC FOX, Peter Concordia NDP GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) Swan River PC GRAHAM, Harry Virden PC HAMMOND, Gerrie Kirkfield Park PC HARAPIAK, Harry M. The Pas NDP HARPER, Elijah Rupertsland NDP HEMPHILL,Hon. Maureen Logan NDP HYDE, Lloyd Portage la Prairie PC JOHNSTON,J. Frank Sturgeon Creek PC KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene Seven Oaks NDP KOVNATS, Abe Niakwa PC LECUYER,Hon. Gerard Radisson NDP LY ON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling Charleswood PC MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI St. James NDP MALINOWSKI,Donald M. St. Johns NDP MANNESS,Clayton Morris PC McKENZIE, J. Wally Roblin-Russell PC MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) St. Norbert PC NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) Assiniboia PC OLESON,Charlotte Gladstone PC ORCHARD, Donald Pembina PC PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. Selkirk NDP PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson Tr anscona NDP PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland Fort Rouge NDP PHILLIPS, Myrna A. Wolseley NDP PLOHMAN, Hon. John Dauphin NDP RANSOM, A. Brian Tu rtle Mountain PC SANTOS,Conrad Burrows NDP SCHROEDER,Hon. Vie Rossmere NDP SCOTT, Don lnkster NDP SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) Fort Garry PC SMITH,Hon. Muriel Os borne NDP STEEN,Wa rren River Heights PC STORIE,Hon. Jerry T. Flin Flon NDP URUSKI, Hon. Bill lnterlake NDP USKIW, Hon. Samuel Lac du Bonnet NDP WA LDING,Hon. D. James St. Vital NDP LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON PRIVILEGES & ELECTIONS Saturday, 28 January, 1984 TIME - 2:00 p.m. being done by the Government of the Day under the guise and the mistaken notion that they know best, LOCATION - Winnipeg, Manitoba and the lastest incredible line, because "we don't understand." Gentlemen, let me assure you, I, for one, CHAIRMAN - Mr. Phil Eyler (River East) understand only too well. lt is not as if this government doesn't know the wishes of the majority of the people, ATTENDANCE - QUORUM - 6 because that has been made abundantly clear and it's Members of the Committee present: been clear that those wishes oppose the actions of the government. Hon. Messrs. Anstett, Bucklaschuk, Lecuyer The government's actions do not represent and Mackling democracy as I fought for it. lt seems that travesty of Messrs. Eyler, Scott, Enns, Filmon, Kovnats, justice to me that the "D" in NDP stands for democratic. Harapiak, Nordman What a misplacement of a word. lt is not democratic for politicians to completely ignore the wishes of the WITNESSES: Mr. R.W. Wootton, Private Citizen people that they are supposed to be serving. That is Ms. Gaye Selby, Private Citizen not democracy, that is dictatorship and it is not Mr. Alan Beachell, Reeve, R.M. of Rosser acceptable. The opposition to the government's actions is broad Mr. Helmut Albrecht, Private Citizen and quite obviously crosses all party lines. There is a Professor A.R. Kear, Private Citizen Manitoban - in the broader sense - a Manitoban Mr. Albert Krawchuk, Private Citizen objection to the government's clumsy dictatorial Mrs. Lois Edie, Private Citizen, handling of this whole matter. lt is not a political party Mr. Arthur Doering, Private Citizen ground swell. lt is a reaction of a whole cross-section of the people to offensive government action. The Mr. Ta ras Lasko, Private Citizen closure action strikes at the very root of what we believe Mr. E.W. Hilger, Private Citizen in in Canada as being the process of governing. This Mr. J. Hay, Private Citizen, government is by force opposing the will of the people. Reeve John Loewen, R.M. of Hanover Now if you are so certain of your rightness, then call an election and take the question to the people. The MATTERS UNDER DISCUSSION: answer is out there. Bill No. 115 - An Act respecting the Operation I'd like to spend just a few moments, having made of Section 23 of The Manitoba Act; Loi that point, talking about the issue at hand, Bill 115. I concernant la mise en application de I'article 23 must note first that there is a great sadness within me de la Loi de 1870 sur le Manitoba. at the division effect of this bill and everything that attaches to it. I must refer you to a very close example that surely mustn't and cannot, if you're practical and with a reasonably open mind, ignore. Let's look at the United States of America, a total melting pot of ethnic backgrounds, of people from MR. CHAIRMAN: Committee will come to order. The virtually every country in the world. What do you see? next person on my list to call is Reeve William Roth; Tremendous pride of country, tremendous pride of flag, Mr. Roy Benson; Mr. Eugene Kinaschuk; Mr. Alexander tremendous spirit. Look at any American event when Pressey. they play their national anthem, and compare it with Mr. R.W. Wootton. what we have here. What do we have here? Nothing that compares to the spirit and the drive and the MR. R. WOOTTON: Mr. Chairman, members of the motivation that the American spirit provides to its committee. I'd like first to offer my thanks for the people. I trust that this government will somehow feel opportunity to present my comments to you. I would the sense of guilt that they should for the damage they like also to make clear that I do not appear here as have done. a redneck. I noted carefully the gratuitous insult that Now I have nothing against French or the French­ I received yesterday from Mr. Mackling, and I think, Canadians per se, but I do object and I object most given its source, I will merely confine my comments to strenuously to anything which, in its application, does expressing sympathy to such a small remark. not have a proper relationship between its cost and I'd like to make the point first that, as a basis to my its benefit or return. Our world turns on the principles comments, Sir, I spent five years during the Second of economics. We are not dealing with this matter in Wo rld War fighting an ideology which was intent on realities. forcing its will on others, regardless of their wishes. - Let me make a point, first of all. I am a member of (Interjection) - I'd like to use my words if you don't a small minority, and maybe you're trampling my rights. mind. Thus I cannot passively accept the same thing Do you know what I feel about the fact that you are 1396 Saturday, 28 January, 1984 not doing anything about it? Great! Butt out! I don't officers are going to have to be doing that throughout need you, and the reason is that it would make no Manitoba, to determine what was taught in childhood economic sense for you to deal with the emotional of the two languages. matter that I might raise representing trampled rights. In the comparison of their impact on the country at A MEMBER: Harry! large, it's meaningless. The cost of correcting these rights that I feel you might be trampling has no economic MR. H. ENNS: No, that's a fair question. merit - ridiculous. Now I want to use that as an entree to the point that MR. R. WOOTTON: I'm perfectly prepared to answer I don't know what it is that we are trying to deal with. the question, Mr. Chairman. I find it rather amusing We're not dealing with hard facts in terms that are because you must be referring to the accent that I lost recognizable. We are dealing with intangibles, and years ago. intangibles whose value in application or non­ application never sees the light of day. it's an emotional MR. H. ENNS: it's not quite lost. subject as far as I can see. Who is suffering from what? What rights are they being denied? What is the impact MR. R. WOOTTON: In order to answer your question of that denial? What is the cost of that denial to those I have to go back a little bit in history. I am not a native­ people? If it has any merit, what is the cost of correcting born Canadian. I'm from Australia. I came to this country it? How do the two values compare? What is the net? during the Second World War in the British That's the way you run a business, gentlemen. That's Commonwealth Air Training Plan as a pilot in the Royal the way we run this country. When do we get to deal Australian Air Force and I completed my pilot training with this subject in those kinds of basic economic, here, was an instructor for a period of time and then practical terms? We haven't even approached it up to went overseas.