MOLEFE PHETO Facilitator

Wits Oral History Interviews: MOLEFE PHETO Facilitator: This is a n interview with Molefe Pheto, we a re in Joha nnesburg, the da te is the 20th of April 2011, a nd interview is done by Brown Ma a ba . Tha nks very muc h for your time. You were still ta lking a bout when you ha d this c onferenc e in London in 1980; you ha d nothing in terms of doc uments. Respondent: Yes, we ha d nothing, a bsolutely. You see, when we went out, others went to Europe, Afric a , Americ a a nd Engla nd a nd then we found out tha t we c a me from one philosophy but we were not a n orga niza tion but we were pa rts of bla c k c onsc iousness movement, a nd then there wa s a feeling tha t we should c ome together to form a n externa l movement, we did not know wha t we were going to c all ourselves. I think there were a ttempts a t fundra ising in different pla c es, somehow a nywa y those who were doing tha t got the money a nd c ongress wa s eventually held in London unfortuna tely bec a use we wa nted it in Afric a , Afric a n c ountries did not wa nt to touc h a c ongress by bla c ks who were fighting a ga inst ra c ism in South Afric a , Kenya being one exa mple. We ended up in London a s our host c ountry without a ny problems. Then there were things like, a mong others, then we’ll ha ve to ha ve some kind of a doc ument/s to public ise us a nd pa rtic ula rly to sort of proc ess our ideology, informa tion doc ument, politic a l a nalysis a nd things like tha t, whic h c a me out of tha t c ongress, I am no more telling a bout the ins a nd outs of c ongress, I am just telling a bout how to go a bout being known a nd doing work, lets sa y in London but in other regions. It wa s a greed tha t there should be some kind of politic al doc ument of Bla c k C onsc iousness Movement of Aza nia bec a use the body wa s c alled tha t a fter it wa s founded. 1 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: It took some time to get a doc ument to c oming out, whic h wa s our a na lytic a l doc ument; I think it c a me out onc e in every three months. Ma inly it wa s done in London, editoria l was in London, but c ontributors from Ha ra re, tha t is Afric a , from G erma ny, from Americ a a nd of c ourse from Engla nd there were c ontributors. Most of the issues were politic a l c ommenta ries more tha n a nything else, very little on c ulture a nd yet c ulture wa s very importa nt but there were not ma ny writers on c ulture. The ma jor role pla yers on tha t doc ument of ours, Rose Inis Phahle wa s one. Facilitator: Is he still alive? Respondent: Yes he is still a bout. Then tha t wa s the time of Ba rney Pitya na but he left us soon a fter c ongress, no he didn’t pla y a ny role there, bec a use soon a fter c ongress he left us. Then there wa s a ma n c alled Ba sil who bec a me the C ha irperson of the BC MA, the first C ha irperson of the BC MA. Facilitator: Ba sil Ma nning? Respondent: Yes, Ba sil Ma nning. He wa s also key person in the doc ument; he loved to ha ve tha t doc ument going. Then we ha d, he wa s also in Fort Ha re, his name now esc apes me, ta ll fellow. Facilitator: Sipho Buthelezi? Respondent: Yes, Sipho Buthelezi, he wa s also interested in the doc ument, very muc h interested in the doc ument, though I think he ha d a nother a genda of a doc ument c alled the (not c lea r). Now those were the key pla yers in the UK a nd I think a s I sa y the editors proba bly it wa s Rose Inis Pha hle, he wa s the ma in editor a nd then Ba sil ha d a 2 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: ha nd in it, but we were sort of ha nds on. We ha d Ha run Va riya va , he wa s a n a dministra tor, who ma de sure tha t it c omes out with Moodley, not Strini, the other Moodley, the brother to Strini. We were the distributors, whenever it c a me, I would send it out to the support c ommunities in the UK, either by post or by ha nd, so tha t it c ould sprea d. Then a lot went to Ha ra re a nd Ha ra re then brought it into the c ountry for people to rea d. Tha t wa s the ma in doc ument. Then there would now a nd a ga in be a rtic les here a nd there. The other things in a s fa r a s ma teria l wa s c onc erned, were posters a nd lea flets a nd pa mphlets, those were for loc al work, whenever we ha d something like Steve Biko memorial or June 16, then we would go out a nd c a mpa ign a nd get support from somewhere a nd ma ke those things for the releva nt event. Ea c h time we ha d a n event we used to send them to Ha ra re so tha t they c ould see them, bec a use la te Ha ra re bec a me the Hea d Qua rters of the BC MA. So we would send just a bout everything down to Ha ra re, they were good in Ha ra re bec a use they used to keep the stuff muc h better tha n a whole lot of other a rea s. But for keeping the ma teria l, when I wa s then Sec reta ry of the BC MA region in the UK, I kept them very metic ulously. I had a room whic h ha d nothing else but just BC MA ma teria l. Facilitator: When were you the Sec reta ry, whic h yea rs? Respondent: Tha t wa s a bout in the middle 1980s, I bec ame the Sec reta ry. Then yes, very metic ulously kept, until the whole c rew wa s devoted to them. I remember the da y Ma ndela c ame out of prison, everybody wa s on TV a nd I dec ided I was just going to work on our libra ry, I just worked when I realized it wa s going to be a lot of sha rra d, so I wa s working on those doc uments, behind time a little but. Eventua lly when we c a me home, we hea rd tha t there wa s a request, no only from the BC MA, but from the ANC by Fort Ha re, tha t those 3 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: doc uments should go to tha t pla c e. There wa s some deba tes, some of us wa nted to know why they should go to Fort Ha re, we were thinking we would keep them in our own libra ry here c oming home, but looks like a c a demy sort of overc a me us, the rea soning wa s tha t it is a n educ a tiona l institution a nd it is historic a l in ma ny wa ys. But a lso the other libera tion movements were sending their stuff there a nd then people will get to look a t them for resea rc h. So if we were holding ba c k, wha t we’ve done will not be known, where we sta nd in the libera tion for insta nc e will not be known, so we then ga ve in a nd sa id let them go to Fort Ha re. But remember the rea son why we were not keen, some of us tha t they should c ome home wa s the settlement tha t wa s a rrived a t in Kempton Pa rk tha t did not ma ke ma ny of us ha ppy. We were of the view tha t the bla c k libera tion movements should form a united front, but a long the wa y we were detisent, a nd we were the only ones who were left a nd we didn’t ta ke pa rt eventua lly. So alongside with things like tha t we didn’t feel tha t those doc uments should c ome home to a system suc h a s the one tha t we ended up with. But eventua lly like I sa y a c a demy pronounc ed, in espec ially now Pugusio wa s here, Pugusio wa s really c a mpa igning for tha t, he wa s really moving for tha t, he wa s trying to give us the ra tiona le. As I sa y, a s soon a s we knew the other libera tion movements ha d their doc uments there a nd so forth, then we will lose out. We were even thinking of sending duplic a tes there a nd keeping origina ls or vise versa , we were thinking of tha t, I don’t know wha t ha ppened to tha t proc ess, bec a use sooner or la ter I think round a bout tha t time then it wa s the grea t move from Ha ra re to home. I think the wa y they moved wa s so unfortuna te a nd so ha rd tha t c a rrying importa nt doc uments like tha t wa s not ea sy bec a use we were not funded, we were not helped to c ome ba c k home from Ha ra re, we found our wa y, wherea s the other movements ha d the United Na tions funds a nd wha t not, they rea lly c ould c ollec t, 4 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: but for us it wa s up to you, you’ll see how to get ba c k to, sa me a s us in the UK, when I dec ided a nd the other c omra des tha t we a re c oming home, we c ouldn’t go to the United Na tions a nd sa y we a re also refugees, now we wa nt to go home, we ha d to find our own wa y. Now, when you do tha t you lea ve a lot of stuff tha t perha ps you would ha ve wa nted to bring home. Facilitator: Just to ma ke some follow-ups. I remember tha t a fter the meeting in London, 1980, there wa s this doc ument whic h wa s c alled An Urgent Ta sk, whic h wa s produc ed by the movement to ma ke sure tha t you begin to implement wha tever tha t wa s on pa per. The issue of doc uments, wa s it c entra l to this, I need to a c tua lly find the doc ument a ga in. Did it form pa rt of it? Respondent: Very muc h so, it wa s extremely essentia l to a point where a fter the c ongress of the c onferenc e, Urgent Ta sk wa s not rea lly emerging, it bec a me a n issue tha t urgent ta sk ha d to be found, ha d to a ppea r. I remember now, I don’t know the sequenc e, whether pa rt of it c a me from Ha ra re or some pa rts c a me from Europe, I think people were c ontributing towa rds the ma in doc ument. Its a rriva l in the UK wa s quite a very sec retive business. We didn’t a gree tha t it must c ome by post or by a nything else, it ha d to be brought by c ourier. Urgent Ta sk wa s the thing tha t wa s really going to get us off the ground. Facilitator: Most of the stuff in Fort Ha re is BC MA stuff, not AZAPO stuff, it’s the stuff from exile in 1980 to of c ourse1990 a nd 1991 or so, but a fter the unba nning. The c a dres tha t went to exile in 1976, 1978 a nd so on, wa s it diffic ult for them to ta ke some BC MA ma teria l to exile, for the 70s there seems to be a ga p there, in terms of this pa rtic ula r c ollec tion is c onc erned. 5 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: Respondent: You mea n the c a dres tha t went out in 1976. Facilitator: Yes in the 70s, even ea rlier a nd then 76 a nd 77. Respondent: AZAPO doc uments or BC M doc uments? Facilitator: BC M doc uments. Respondent: I think the problem wa s, you know tha t there wa s this myth tha t we won’t be long outside, we believed tha t struggle, bec a use we were so rea dy for a rmed c omba t, tha t we thought we’ll get there tra in, finish a nd c ome ba c k home a nd then in a little while we’ll proba bly defea t these guys a nd so those doc uments. Nobody wa s thinking of c a rrying a nything out, but I think it wa s the method of lea ving the c ountry, I mea n just immedia tely get out, we c ouldn’t prepa re tha t I am going to go to exile, we thought I’m still going to be a t home a nd do some work, a nd then suddenly when things c ha nge the first thing you think a bout is tha t I’d better go. Now things like doc uments sometimes bec ome not tha t c ruc ial, but the younger genera tion of 1976, doc uments were not in their minds, no I don’t think they would wa nt to c a rry a nything. They were so hot tha t they wa nt to get there, get those guns a nd c ome ba c k, so I think tha t wa s the missing thing, nobody wa s thinking a bout tha t, but a lso c a rrying doc uments wa s not tha t ea sy, bec a use the c ountry wa s full of roa d bloc ks, soldiers a nd polic e. I think ma ybe people felt tha t, ta ke nothing just be a s you a re a nd if you a re c a ught a t lea st let them put something without being helped by some letter of identific a tion, I think tha t wa s, ma ybe tha t ma kes tha t ga p so prominent. Facilitator: And yourself, when did you go to exile? 6 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: Respondent: I went into exile in 1977 a nd mine wa s the ea siest, it wa s not jumping fenc es a nd things like tha t. I wa s invited by the United Sta tes Informa tion servic e, by then c a lled Afric a C rossroa ds in the United Sta tes. Tha t wa s a fter I wa s in prison, I didn’t think I would ma ke it, but somehow the United Sta tes diploma ts here were very strong I think, bec a use I ha d been refused a pa ssport, c ouldn’t go, so I told them there’s no point I c a n’ go bec a use I ha d been refused pa ssport, they sa id they would deal with it. I got a phone c all sa ying they’ve got my pa ssport. Then instea d of c oming home when I wa nted to c ome home, I wa s sort of bloc ked through our c ommunic a tions system, tha t wa s now in 1977 when I wa nted to c ome ba c k home, I think it wa s a fter September, a fter Steve Biko wa s murdered. The sec urity polic e a nd other a genc ies sta rted looking for a c tivists, my house was ra ided ma ny times. When I c alled to sa y I am on my wa y, my wife though I wa s c ra zy a nd my friends thought you must be ma d, but the thing is tha t they sent me informa tion not to c ome ba c k, I think tha t informa tion wa s interc epted. So I wa s going to get right into their ha nds, even when I c alled them here a t home, I c alled them through the Americ a n Informa tion servic e fa c ilities in Joha nnesburg, so I think tha t’s why ma ybe we c ould not be interc epted, or something like tha t, a nd they would ha ve to go a nd pic k up my phone c alls from there a nd c all me from there. So 1977 I ended up in exile, but like I sa id, the ea sy wa y, I didn’t jump fenc es a nd things like tha t. I wa s in Engla nd on my wa y home a nd then tha t wa s it. Facilitator: You also mentioned tha t there wa s a n editoria l sta ff a nd offic e tha t opera ted from London, wha t ha ppened to the bulk of tha t ma teria l, or people who were produc ing tha t. Were they very keen on sa fe gua rding a nd keeping this ma teria l from (not c lea r). 7 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: Respondent: I would ha ve thought so, but a t tha t time when now looks like we were prepa ring to c ome home, they were no longer a c tive a t all, or not a s a c tive a s when we sta rted. When we sta rted for insta nc e, the C ha ir wa s Ba sil Ma nning a nd the others, I think I wa s in the c ommittee. Then la ter it went to different c omra des, a nd when it went to different c omra des, Ma nning wa s no longer C ha ir, Rose Innis wa s no longer editor or something like tha t, so we were left with the ba by, we were left with those doc uments a nd it wa s now the new exec utive tha t wa s ma king dec isions, wha t do we do with these things. The ea rlier dec ision wa s to keep those things ourselves, a nd whoever wa nted resea rc h c ould get in touc h with us, a nd we did get a lot of people wa nting resea rc h, from the C a ribbea n, United Sta tes, Afric a , Europe, a nd we used to send the stuff, so it wa s useful a nd we saw the va lue of keeping it. But then the ea rlier editors where no longer really a c tive, it wa s now a new group of people. I think I wa s of those tha t wa s sec reta ry for a long time, even our last C ha ir , wa s a C ha ir for a long time until 1994, I think I wa s Sec reta ry until 1992, there a bout. Now with us the deba te wa s we will keep these a nd bring them home for the offic e of AZAPO or wha tever we were going to be c a lled, here a t home, no Fort Ha re, no other universities. It they wa nted a nything we would ma ke c opies, tha t’s wha t we were sa ying. Facilitator: And then you sa id other people like Ma nning, were no longer a s a c tive a s they used to be in the end. Did tha t impa c t on the loss of doc uments or a c c ounta bility of the ma teria l a nd the future of the doc uments. Respondent: No, unless you ha d individual c opies a nd everybody ha d individual c opies, but the c ore, no, ea c h exec utive c ommittee tha t took over ha nded over doc uments, equipment a nd offic es to the next 8 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: one. So tha t went from ea c h new exec utive a fter a nother, but individual c opies, I a m sure some people still ha ve. Facilitator: So these doc uments were kept a t your pla c e or in the offic e. Respondent: They were in the offic e, some of them, but then there wa s quite a n overflow. When I a s Sec reta ry I ha d spa c e where I wa s, most of them, I mea n the ma jority of the doc uments exc ept a dministra tive stuff, I would ha ve Urgent Ta sk like a nything, I would ha ve shelves a nd shelves, those were kept a t my pla c e. Anything importa nt tha t wa s a t my plac e, it wa s on c ondition it should be a va ila ble when needed a nd there wa s no problem there, we were very c lose knit. Facilitator: So the fa mily wa s ok with tha t, some room being c onverted into stora ge? Respondent: Absolutely no problem, in fa c t tha t room wa s sort of sa c rosa nc t in the sense tha t, but luc ky my wife wa s also in the orga niza tion a nd my c hildren. So they would go there a nd rea d a nd things like tha t, but ba sic ally they knew, if you wa nted something you c ould go, tha t’s when I wa s Sec reta ry. Respondent: And you mentioned tha t other people also shown interest in the c ollec tions within the movement, Buthelezi a nd others a s well. Where they interested in getting something from the ma teria l or were they interested in keeping the ma teria l, wha t wa s their position. Respondent: Buthelezi wa s ma inly interested in writing a nd tha t our doc uments were politic a l quality, he wa s c ra zy a bout politic a l quality, no ma tter how diffic ult, bec a use sometimes politic a l la nguage is 9 of 33 Wits Oral History Interviews: diffic ult, but I think he c omes from tha t sc hool of using the right terminology a nd wha tever, he wa s stric t on tha t a nd he wa s interested in tha t, a nd I would sa y he wa s interested in keeping a c opy of ea c h produc tion, tha t’s fine, we all did tha t. But a lso remember tha t when you ha ve suc h a n interest sometimes you influenc e wha t goes in, a nd then if you ha ve ma ybe a c erta in line, you a re interested tha t, tha t line must a ppea r in the doc ument, tha t’s wha t we would sa y ma ybe persona l interest. But if there’s some tota l tha t no this is ok, its pa rt of our struggle, bec a use la ngua ge c a n be very c ruc ial, it c a n be BC MA la ngua ge but with a c erta in twist whic h is now ta lking to other forc es. But we ha d interest a nd I think honest interest.

MOLEFE PHETO Facilitator

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