Vol. 795 Monday No. 239 21 January 2019 PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDEROFBUSINESS Questions Television Licences: Over 75s .........................................................................................493 Health: Chief Medical Officer’s Recommendations .......................................................495 Education: English Baccalaureate ..................................................................................498 Brexit: Cross-Channel Transport....................................................................................500 Zimbabwe Private Notice Question ..................................................................................................502 Trade Bill Committee (1st Day)......................................................................................................506 Leaving the European Union Statement........................................................................................................................557 Poverty: Metrics Question for Short Debate...............................................................................................573 Trade Bill Committee (1st Day) (Continued) ................................................................................589 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. 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This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-01-21 The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2019, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 493 Television Licences: Over 75s[21 JANUARY 2019] Television Licences: Over 75s 494 House of Lords runs out in 2020. If, as the Minister wishes, the BBC does continue to offer this arrangement, who is going Monday 21 January 2019 to pay for it? 2.30 pm Lord Ashton of Hyde: When the funding settlement Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Worcester. was put down in 2015, the BBC agreed to pay for it in 2020, in return for a five-year,index-linked settlement—the first time that had ever happened. The BBC has had Television Licences: Over 75s four years to prepare for this; it knew it was coming. Question That is why we expect it to live up to what was agreed. 2.36 pm Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury (LD): If the Asked by Lord Naseby Government persist in requiring the BBC, and hence Toask Her Majesty’sGovernment what discussions the licence fee payer, to pay for the over-75s—a welfare they have held with the BBC about ending free benefit introduced by Gordon Brown and paid for by television licences for those over 75 years old. the Government—there will either have to be yet more cuts to its budget, and consequently to UK content at Lord Naseby (Con): My Lords, I beg leave to ask a time when PSBs are really under the cosh, or a rise in the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. the licence fee which will have particular implications In doing so, I declare that I am over 75. for lower-income households. Does the Minister agree? TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department Lord Ashton of Hyde: The BBC is consulting on a for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (Lord Ashton of number of options, it has made those known and the Hyde) (Con): My Lords, the Government meet the consultation finishes next month—I am sure that noble BBC regularly to discuss a range of issues, including Lords will want to contribute to it. The fact is that the the over-75s concession. We know that people across BBC agreed a deal in 2015. We are not asking anything the country value television as a way to stay connected sudden; it has had four years to prepare for this and with the world, and that is why the Government have that is what they agreed to do. So I do not see why it is guaranteed the concession until 2020. We have agreed extraordinary to expect the BBC, a £5 billion corporation, with the BBC that responsibility for the concession to live up to the agreement it made in 2015. will transfer to the BBC in 2020, and we have been clear that we want the concession to continue. Baroness Deech (CB): Does the Minister agree that Lord Naseby: Is my noble friend aware that that is the BBC would have plenty of scope to meet this cost an encouraging Answer? Nevertheless, is it not time if it slashed the exorbitant salaries paid to some performers that the BBC faced up to the fact that it is a public and producers, not to mention their bonuses? service broadcaster, with a social responsibility to its listeners? Is it not a little surprising to have a consultation Lord Ashton of Hyde: Would that that were so. I document of 50 pages-plus on the subject which seems agree with the thrust of the noble Baroness’squestion—the to give the message that it is trying to wriggle out of BBC has a duty to take seriously how much it pays that social responsibility? When it faced a not dissimilar senior managers and stars—but the cost of the over-75s’ problem for BBC overseas, when the Foreign Office concession is about £750 million, and I am afraid that removed the grant, the BBC took the decision to take even reducing all salaries to zero would not achieve advertising. We now have a situation where every hour that. of BBC broadcasting has three minutes of promos. Would that gap not be better used by taking advertising? Lord Dubs (Lab): My Lords, is it not true that the BBC was pretty well bounced into this? It was a Lord Ashton of Hyde: My noble friend is completely decision made by the Treasury and not even DCMS right that the BBC should pay attention to its social knew about it until the BBC was forced to comply. responsibilities, and it does. However,in the consultation surrounding the renewal of the royal charter, only 1.5% of people said that the BBC should have advertising. Lord Ashton of Hyde: If that was the case, why did One of the reasons why allowing it would not be the director-general say: an easy solution is that all the other public service “The government’s decision here to put the cost of the over-75s broadcasters, which do not start the year with £3.8 billion on us has been more than matched by the deal coming back for in subsidy, would find it even more difficult to do their the BBC”? excellent job. Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD): My Lords, following Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab): My Lords, the principle of the noble Lord, Lord Naseby, that going back to the main point, this is a completely public service functions could be subsidised by advertising, classic cock-up by the Conservative Party. It promised, are there thoughts within the Conservative Government in its manifesto, that this issue would continue until that this principle could be extended further? Our the end of the next Parliament—which I still think is police service has been quite sharply cut in recent 2022—but the new arrangements are supposed to take years, for example. Does the Minister think that police place from 2020. To compound the issue, the money cars could be encouraged to take advertising as well? 495 Television Licences: Over 75s[LORDS] Health: CMO’s Recommendations 496 Lord Ashton of Hyde: I do not know whether the BaronessManzoor:MyLords,asIsaid,theGovernment noble Lord was listening to the Answer I gave to my take very seriously the CMO’s recommendations and noble friend. I said that the BBC should not take in previous years have taken them on board. The advertising. Government are striving to address the inequalities, and, as we said in the Statement on the NHS plan, Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab): My Lords, £4.5 billion is going into the preventive agenda through following on from the question asked by my noble increased investment in primary medical and community friend Lord Dubs, does the Minister agree, on reflection, care. We are addressing inequalities in obesity and are that the way the agreement—which we all have to looking to reduce by 2030 the gap in obesity between concede was an agreement—was arrived at was, to say children from the most and least deprived areas. the least, not very transparent and did not take very long to be sorted out? It appeared to come upon Lord O’Shaughnessy (Con): My Lords, one of the everybody very suddenly and without much discussion, best ways to reduce health inequalities is to make which suggests a bit of a shotgun arrangement. sure that we have truly personalised medicine—which the CMO references in her report. She talks about Lord Ashton of Hyde: The BBC is not a small health being transformed by 2040 by integrating organisation; it is a very sophisticated organisation. biomedicine, technology and behavioural sciences. Up until the 2015 settlement, there was an almost Can my noble friend say what the NHS is doing to permanent state of crisis because the licence fee was embrace the innovations that will lead to this kind of funded on an annual basis, so as soon as it was agreed healthcare? one year, negotiations started for the next year.