Robert F. Utter Research by John Hughes and Lori Larson Transcripti on by Lori Larson Interviews by John Hughes March 4, 2009 Hughes: Today The Legacy Project is with former Washington Supreme Court Justi ce Robert F. Utt er at his home on Cooper Point in Olympia. Justi ce Utt er served on the high court from Dec. 20, 1971, unti l his resignati on on April 24, 1995, to protest the death penalty. Besides his half-century career in the law and his internati onal acti vism for peace and justi ce, Justi ce Utt er has writt en widely about Justi ce Utt er on the Washington Supreme Court bench, 1972 his spiritual journey. Judge, I understand that Willi Unsoeld, the legendary mountain climber, was one of your heroes. Utt er: Willi was a neighbor. He always told me he had more sacred encounters in the mountains than in any church. And he said there were “only two illicit questi ons in philosophy – ‘What if?’ and ‘Why?’ He said they’re illicit because there’s no answer, and to dwell on them only leads to madness!” There have been two gurus in my life – Willi was one, and Jim Houston was the other. Houston is a remarkable man. He taught with C.S. Lewis at Oxford. Hughes: Speaking of heroes: C.S. Lewis. What a writer! Utt er: There is a beauti ful piece that Dr. Houston wrote — “Living in a Suff ering World.” It’s in the book called I Believe in the Creator. Hughes: It’s pronounced “whose-ton”? Utt er: Yes. He has a doctorate in geography from Oxford and because he taught with C.S. Lewis and others of that group, he developed a strong interest in theology. He was one of 2 the founders of Regent College up in Vancouver, B.C. It is now part of the University of Briti sh Columbia. Jim Houston wrote the only thing that ever made sense to me on human suff ering. And as a person who tries to fi nd spiritual answers, the only reason it makes sense is that the only answer is that there is no answer. Essenti ally he says it’s for God to know … and that “to live in a meaningful world” you need to have the right atti tude, rather than just go James Houston the Oxford don looking for simple answers. “Relati ng to God is more profound whose theological writi ng so impressed Justi ce Utt er. than knowing about God,” he emphasized. I just love all the things that I’ve seen in Houston’s book. Hughes: How to make sense of suff ering? Sounds like Houston is putti ng a twist on Camus, who wrote about making the fundamental choice to live. And someone once suggested that “Suicide is a permanent soluti on to a temporary problem.” Utt er: Exactly. And then this is something I wrote for the Washington Bar. It sti ll prett y much expresses my feelings on the resiliency of the human spirit and the need for a rule of law. Hughes: You and your friend (former justi ce) Charles Z. Smith have had some absolute parallel tracks evolving from the Bapti st Church and the rule of law and internati onal understanding, haven’t you? Utt er: Yes. I’ve been so fortunate, John, I just really have … As a kid who never thought that these things, these opportuniti es, would be present in his life. Hughes: Where did you meet James Houston? Utt er: Well, that’s kind of a long story. He lives in Vancouver. But he was very acti ve with a group called the Fellowship Foundati on that I got involved with back in the 1960s. It was a group that got ( Watergate conspirator) Chuck Colson turned around. It started actually in Sea tt le when Abram Vereide, who was a spiritual adviser to Gov. Arthur Langlie, put together a program. Hughes: Well, you and I ought to stop here and get started at the beginning of your eventf ul life. For the record, I too grew up in the First Bapti st Church. 3 Utt er: Yes! Hughes: But my mother didn’t get mad when I fell in love with a Catholic girl, with predictable results. I want you to know that from what I’ve read about your spiritual life, I think you would make a wonderful Jesuit. I could talk to Father Steve Sundborg at Seatt le U and Father Spitzer at Gonzaga and we could get you converted overnight! Utt er: (Laughs) Hughes: A lot of people don’t understand that there are Bapti sts and then there are Bapti sts. Utt er: We’re from the liberal branch of the Bapti st faith. I say we have no sawdust on our fl oors. But people so readily stereotype it. Hughes: I hate stereotyping. Utt er: I do too. It’s a substi tute for thinking, is what it is. Hughes: That’s a wonderful way of putti ng it. … Well, you were chief justi ce of the Washington Supreme Court from 1979-1981, and overall you served on the court for 23 years and fi ve months. Does that make you one of the longest serving judges in the history of the Washington Supreme Court? Utt er: I think I was the second-longest serving. I was the youngest chief justi ce at that ti me. Hughes: How old were you? Utt er: I was 49. Hughes: And how about to just be on the court? Utt er: I was 41. I think there was one other judge in state history – at that ti me, at least – who came on the Supreme Court younger. He was in his thirti es. Hughes: Some wag once observed, “If I’d known I was going to live this long I would have taken bett er care of myself.” And then Bett e Davis chimed in with the immortal line that “Getti ng old is not for sissies.” You’ve got some maladies, but you look great, and what are you – almost 80? Utt er: Prett y close. 79 this June. Hughes: So, no real regrets? 4 Utt er: Just that I haven’t got another 79 years to go. That’s a very deep regret. I’ve tried to live not being afraid of things. And my ocean sailing is what really got me started there. I was deathly afraid the fi rst ti me I raced to Hawaii, just of what I’d fi nd out there and the responsibiliti es I’d have as captain. And once that was over my life was never the same. Hughes: What year was that? Utt er: It was 1976. I’d been on the court for fi ve years. Hughes: So that was your fi rst ocean voyage on a sailboat? Utt er: Of that length. The year before that we sailed to Cobb Seamount, a dormant volcano off the mouth of the Columbia River. It’s under water so it was a crazy race. You had to fi nd it by celesti al navigati on and prove you were there by a photograph of your depth fi nder. Hughes: Tell us how you got interested in sailing. Did you grow up sailing as a boy? Utt er: I think I have to believe in reincarnati on because somewhere back there I held some sailors before I ever knew them. My parents both came from Boise, Idaho. Hughes: (Jokingly) There’s a lot of sailing there in Boise! Utt er: The romance of the sea was not in my geneti c code from them. Dear people, but we went through some very impoverished ti mes during the Depression. I sat in a home in West Seatt le that overlooked the sea, the Sound, up on a high bluff . Watching these boats sailing out there, something in it really reached something deep inside me. So I always said, “Well, when I can, I’ll get a sailboat.” And a friend of mine in high school lived on the beach and had a small sailboat. On occasions he would invite me to go with him, which was a great delight. We’d sail this litt le boat over to Blake Island. Hughes: How big was that? –the boat that is. Utt er: Oh, gosh, it couldn’t have been over 15 feet. Like (the nursery rhyme of) Wynken, Blynken, and Nod sailing out seaward. But that started it. And Bett y always says, “When I agreed to marry you I knew we were going to get a sailboat soon.” Hughes: Was Bett y a reluctant sailor? Utt er: She had never sailed at all. I think it had to be out of pure love and aff ecti on. We bought a sailboat before we bought a house. 5 Hughes: What was it about that fi rst race to Hawaii that meant so much to you in terms of confi dence as a sailor and something you learned about life in general? Utt er: It was something I always had an inborn anxiety about. I guess “anxiety” is the best word, because you have a lot of Justi ce Utt er smoking a pipe at the ti ller of Tondelayo. responsibility as a captain on a race with crew safety and preparati on. You only read about storms at sea. You never read of the beauty of the experience. So I had a deep, deep inborn concern about what I’d fi nd out there and my ability to deal with it.