CANADA VOLUME 135 S NUMBER 127 S 1st SESSION S 36th PARLIAMENT OFFICIAL REPORT (HANSARD) Monday, September 28, 1998 Speaker: The Honourable Gilbert Parent CONTENTS (Table of Contents appears at back of this issue.) All parliamentary publications are available on the ``Parliamentary Internet Parlementaire'' at the following address: http://www.parl.gc.ca 8431 HOUSE OF COMMONS Monday, September 28, 1998 The House met at 11 a.m. how taxpayers feel on certain issues, for example, the credibility of political leaders in negotiating these types of deals. _______________ Even though it is taxpayer money that is used to find out what the taxpayers feel about particular situations, they are not being Prayers told. They are not being given the information. We have some _______________ serious problems with that. This is very reminiscent of what happened with Brian Mulroney in 1992 when the Tories refused to release the taxpayer-funded PRIVATE MEMBERS’ BUSINESS polls on Charlottetown. It begs the question of why this taxpayer money is being spent. Why are these polls being held back? Why D (1100 ) are we not being apprised of the situation? [English] It boils down to a few reasons. One of the things the government likes to say is that somehow this will taint federal-provincial CALGARY DECLARATION relations. That was decided in court by Judge Rothstein. I will get into the quotes in a minute. In that case there was a determination Mr. Rob Anders (Calgary West, Ref.) moved: that the government did not have a legitimate case to deprive the That a Humble Address be presented to His Excellency praying that he will cause public of these documents. to be laid before this House copies of all documents, reports, minutes of meetings, notes, memos, polls and correspondence relating to the Calgary Declaration. I will go into some of these things that I think need to be touched He said: Mr. Speaker, Motion P-22 requests the government to on because previous information commissioners and others have put forward all documents relating to the Calgary Declaration. made determinations with regard to this. A wise man, a man of biblical note, King Solomon, said ‘‘What Government members, when in opposition and even while has been will be again and what has been will be done again. There running in the last election in 1997, made promises which were is nothing new under the sun’’. Unfortunately I have to report that I contained in the red book. Indeed there was a violation of one of the think that is the case today. sacred red book promises. We do not like to see that happen. There are probably others, but I will point out one which is glaring. Previously we in the Reform Party, as well as others, made access to information requests with regard to documents relating to Information Commissioner Grace wrote that it is ‘‘passing the Charlottetown accord. There was some delay and scuttlebutt bizarre that the public should be denied knowing what the public with regard to the delay of those documents, some secrecy, and we thinks when the public pays for collecting information about all know how pernicious secrecy is. itself’’. D (1105 ) It is passing bizarre. But it is something that is not so bizarre that I would put the Liberal government past it because that is exactly My prediction is that the government will vote down this motion the case today. and not produce the documents with regard to the Calgary Declara- tion. I think that is somewhat hypocritical. On the one hand the I am going to revisit some of the comments made by government government was talking about how open it wanted the process members when they were in opposition, the criticisms they levelled concerning the declaration to be. It said it did not want to do things against the Tory administration of Brian Mulroney on secrecy. the way Mulroney did with the Charlottetown accord. It wanted this to be a very open process, but we have secrecy. The government House leader has in his riding the lovely town of Prescott which I have been to several times. At that time he said It is worse than that. It is not just the case of secrecy, that the that the government must justify why taxpayer dollars were spent government is hiding something, but it is using taxpayers’ money gathering information that could have benefited the party in power, to do it. That is what I find objectionable. Polls are done to find out the government of the day. That is exactly the same question we 8432 COMMONS DEBATES September 28, 1998 Private Members’ Business raise today. Why is this Liberal government refusing to allow declaration with regard to it. We know it has had some determina- access to documents that could benefit it in terms of its strategy and tions on it. Certainly it has done polling. It has told me that it has what it is doing? done polling. I have been contacted by people who are involved with intergovernmental affairs. I have been contacted by people If it does not benefit in terms of the strategy and what it is doing who are involved in the Privy Council Office. They have told me and if it is not being used for partisan purposes, then let us see the that they have these documents, but they said they do not want to documents. The taxpayers have paid for them. It is only fair to give release them. They said that instead I should go through an access taxpayers access to the documents. to information request or something like that. If the Calgary Declaration was supposed to be an open process, If the government has the documents, if it has located the then let us open up these documents. Basically that is what this documents, surely, for the taxpayers who paid for the documents, motion asks today. there should not be a problem producing the documents in the House. The justice who had some serious problems with the rationale used by governments previously to withhold documents just like When the government released the 700 pages of documents these was Justice Marshall Rothstein. He said that he did not see a relating to the Charlottetown accord, it did so in an attempt to harm to relations with the provinces, that basically those types of pre-empt a court ruling and avoid setting a legal precedent. If that arguments were unfounded. He thought that disclosing public legal precedent had been set of course we would be looking at using opinion surveys was indeed important. it today. It only released those documents to avoid setting a precedent with regard to the release of these types of documents. That is wrong. D (1110) It is not as though this is a cheap endeavour. It is not as though If in principle it should be releasing these documents, as it these are piddly sums of money. The principle is of course that the should because taxpayer dollars have paid for them, then we should government, because it is using taxpayer dollars, should make not have to wait. The government should not be hiding behind the these types of studies, these types of surveys, these types of polls skirts of a legal decision, trying to avoid it. It should be forthright available to the public which is paying for them. The government is and release these documents. violating that principle in terms of what it is doing with these secret deals. The bills that Decima and Créatec had with respect to the Charlottetown accord amounted to $306,000. I am sure these types More than that, it is also a case of money. We have seen this of things are going on today, but because the government is being administration continually increase the amount of money it is secretive in terms of what it is doing with these documents we are spending on these polls. Indeed government advertising alone, used not going to know the actual figures and what polls were done until in conjunction with these polls, is over $100 million a year. it actually comes forth and releases them. The strategic polling that we are talking about here that was done I also note that it is not just the official opposition which is with regard to the declaration, which the government is withhold- concerned about things like this, it is also people whose job it is to ing, amounted to millions of dollars. It is unacceptable. inform the Canadian public, namely the Canadian press. These types of polls are also used for political or partisan Once again with regard to precedents, because I am laying the purposes when they probe views on people like the Prime Minister, groundwork which is very important in this argument, the last time the Leader of the Opposition and various premiers who were the journalists from the Canadian Press, Southam News, the Globe involved in some of the negotiations. If the government is going to and Mail and other researchers asked the Privy Council Office to be using public dollars, then everybody should be made aware of disclose public opinion research on constitutional proposals the them, including those people across the way who are the subject of government refused to do so. some of those polls. It is important that we include some precedents in this debate. D (1115 ) Polling results on the Charlottetown accord amounted to 700 pages. That is a lot of polling. When we look at what it contained, the idea It is not just a case of the official opposition or opposition parties that the government withheld it from the Canadian public who paid in the House requesting the information.