The Association for Diplomatic Studies and Training Foreign Affairs Oral History Project Labor Series PROFESSOR JACK BARBASH Interviewer: Morris Weisz Initial interview date: May 2, 1994 Copyright 1998 AD T TABLE OF CONTENTS ackground orn and raised in New York City New York University Early Employment in Education 1930,s The Educational Alliance Teaching classes for Unions -PA,s -orkers Education Young Socialists League Clothing -orkers Unions Labor personalities New York University 193.-1930 Professors Dissertation1 Employer Attitudes and Methods of the Belligerent Employer -ashington2 D.C.4 National Labor Relations oard 1930-1940 La Folllette Committee Railway Labor Act Authors of labor issues Congress of Industrial Organisation 8CIO9 Communist labor development Socialists Office of Education -ashington2 D.C4 -ar Production oard 8-P 9 1940- Labor )nions in Action Unionism as an institution of capitalism Comparison with cultural anthropology 1 Observations Labor attaches European views on trade unions There+s More to More than More -alter Reuther Trade )nions and Economic Policy European labor leaders and labor philosophy AFL-CIO Swedish/German experience International Industrial Relations Association Foreign Tours > worldwide 1962 Reports on Labor Attaches The @Saposs thingA Cost of loving studies European and American concepts of labor relations European management and trade unions American management and trade unions Professors and industrial relations Transition from socialism to capitalism Cohen-Sachs disagreement Foreign Service Officers Academics Foreign Service Institute Turning from study of social systems to economics The Nobel PriBe Embassies need for economic analysis American economic publications University of -isconsin4 Professor of Labor and Economic Thought INTERVIEW -: This is Morris Weisz and this is the first side of the first tape of my interview with my old friend Jac/ Barbash in Madison, Wisconsin, on May 2 0and 12, 1994. Jac/ has had e4tensive e4perience in a number of fields that are very relevant to our Labor Diplomacy Oral History Pro7ect and we will append biographical and bibliographical material to the interview when it is finally transcribed, but in the meanwhile, let me just say that on the domestic front Jac/ was active in the trade union movement before he entered 8ederal 9overnment service in 1919. Prior to that, he had been employed in the tate 9overnment of New Yor/ and spent a number of years in the Federal 9overnment before again going to wor/ for one of the trade unions. He had wor/ed for the trade unions in 2 New Yor/, and in Chicago in 1948-1950, where he was Education Director of the Amalgamated Meatcutters )nion for a couple of years before returning to Washington and 9overnment wor/ with the )nited tates enate. )ltimately he ended up at the C.I.O. and in 1957 in a big change in his occupation he entered academe on a regular basis. Before 1957, he had been teaching occasionally in various schools and especially at the Wor/ers chool at the )niversity of Wisconsin. As a result in 1957 the )niversity of Wisconsin offered him a position and ever since then he has been associated with that university. The combination of teaching e4perience in wor/ers' schools, both while he was wor/ing for trade unions and doing e4tension wor/, and his wor/ as a teacher led to his interest in international affairs. Beginning with the mid-1950s, I would say, he became a regular among the academics interested in international affairs. In that connection he later visited over 50 countries, usually lecturing for the ) IA or the embassy or some cooperating local organization. He traveled e4tensively and for the purposes of our pro7ect I am interested in interviewing him on a number of sub7ects related to two areas. One, any comments he may have as to the labor officer function in the various government agencies under whose auspices -- or even independently -- he lectured abroad and secondly, some topics that I have listed that he will have some comments on -- I hope e4tensive comments on -- which are related to international labor. Now, I am going to stop this, and we'll put Jac/ on with some Auestions I'll be raising. Well, Jac/, suppose we begin. ,ossibly you might want to correct some of the aspects of your bac/ground that I described if you wish at this point. AR ASH1 -ell2 my one minute biography divides my career2 like all Gaul2 into three parts. I have been a trade union economist2 a government civil servant2 and for 30 years or so a professor2 but in certain senses all of these roles interacted2 because I was teaching when I was a trade unionist and so although I had different job titles2 as I look back2 thereCs a remarkable consistency in what I was doing and what I was interested in. I got into trade unions Duite naturally2 without conscious choice. I grew up in a trade union household. Ey father was a Fewish immigrant from Russia2 who was deeply interested in social affairs and was himself active on the East Side Gof New York CityH in some of the intellectual activities like the Educational Alliance2 where he was a kind of a manager. The Educational Alliance was physically close by the .ewish Daily Forward2 so he was very much a part of that milieu without himself being an active intellectual participant2 which he was not. He was a working man2 and his career was that of a manager of small time movie houses2 which were then breaking through. He had come to the country at the end of the 19th Century2 in the 1I90s2 and moved naturally to the East Side2 and then to East New York2 to the rownsville section of rooklyn2 which was almost as great a hotbed of intellectual2 Yiddish-socialist activity. I grew up naturally2 you might say2 within the socialists in the trade union movement. I went to college at New York University and very soon afterwards began teaching classes for various unions around the city and in the metropolitan area. 3 -: You refer to yourself as having wor/ed as an economist for the trade unions and you did have your degree in economics, but it was more than just being an economist for the unions. You actually did much more than that. AR ASH1 Oh2 yes. I did much more than that2 but my primary job was as an economist and I would say as a teacher. If I go into details2 my first job2 if it was a job2 was on the -orks Progress Administration 8-PA9 and it was on the -PACs -orkers Education Program2 which was a program to teach classes and write memoranda for trade unions. It was a cooperative program where many of the people later active as union educational directors and research directors served their apprenticeship for such unions as the LadiesC Garment -orkersC Union and the Amalgamated Clothing -orkers. y the time I was in my very early 20s2 maybe even late teens2 I was doing work for unions by way of volunteer organiBing2 so I grew up in such an environment. The difference2 I suppose2 between me and other people was that I pursued it in what would then be a rigorous fashion intellectually2 as I took courses in it2 began to write very early about it2 and so evolved into the trade union movement without any conscious choice of occupation or profession. -: From the W,A pro7ects, which I had forgotten about. That actually was your first employment, although I should remind you that many times you used to refer to your first employment as selling food up and down the aisles in your father's movie theaters. That was employment also. AR ASH1 Yes2 it was. I served as an usher in movie houses. ecause of my father and my job2 I worked my way through college serving as an usher and assistant manager in small movie houses. I rose to the rank of corporal in LoewCs-State2 as my father happened to know Earcus Loew from their immigrant beginnings. They were roughly of the same age and he got me a job there2 where at the pinnacle of my career as usher in LoewCs- State2 I became a corporal2 wearing a uniform2 in the first balcony2 where I had charge over other ushers. I did not stay there very long. -: It was a leadership function. AR ASH1 ThatCs right. -: From the W,A, you went to wor/ for a union full time, did youB AR ASH1 From the -PA2 I went to work for unions. I did part time teaching for the International LadiesC Garment -orkersC Union in the New York metropolitan area at the rate of five dollars a day and ferry expenses2 because I worked all over in the metropolitan area. I got to know what the I.L.G. called the Jout of town staffJ very closely. They were good friends and that period was extremely valuable in getting me right in to the nitty- gritty of organiBing2 of holding a union together2 of running classes for stewards2 of getting into the nitty-gritty of union administration at the local level at a time when the union was just starting out. 4 -: This would have been 1912 or soB AR ASH1 This would have been even earlier than 19322 because I was still an undergraduate. I remember a Eaiden Form local in Paterson and EliBabeth2 New Fersey2 where I did a good deal of work and made many friends that lasted a life time. -: Before we go further on this, in connection with your school activities, did you get involved into politicsB AR ASH1 I got involved into socialist politics.