NATIONAL A.IR AND SPACE !1CSEUM RAND CORPORATION JOINT ORAL HISTORY PROJECT ON THE HISTORY OF THE RAND CORPORATION EDITORIAL USE FORM PREFACE This manuscript is based upon a tape-recorded interview conducted by ~1artin collins on _....;:....;1a.;;:.y_l~8.:..,_1_9_9_0_~~____ The ~ape and the manuscript are the property of the undersigned: however, the originals and copies are indefinitely deposited, respec~ivelYI at the National Air and Space Museum of the Smithsonian Ins~itu~ion and at the RAND corpora~ion. I have read the transcript 'and have made only minor corrections and emendations. The reader is therefore asked to bear in mind that this manuscript is a record of a spoken conversation ra~her than a literary product. Though the Smithsonian Institution and the RAND corporation may use these materials for their own purposes as they deem appropriate, I wish to place the condition as selected below upon the use of this interview material by others and I understand that the smithsonian Ins~itution and the RAND Corporation will make reasonable efforts to enforce the condition to the extent possible. CONDI!'::!:ONS (Check one) PUBLIC. THE MATERIAL MAY BE MADE AVAILABLE TO AND MAY BE USED BY ~.NY PERSON FOR .Z>..NY !..AWFUL PURPOSE. I OPEN. This manuscript may be read and the tape heard by persons approved by the smithsonian Ins~itution or by ~he RAND Corporation. The user must agree not to quote from, cite or reproduce by any means this material except with the written permission of the smithsonian or RAND. MY PERMISSION REQU!RED TO QUOTE, CITE OR REPRODUCE. This manuscript and the ~ape are open to examination as above. The user ~ust agree not to quo~e from, cite or reproduce by any means this material except with the written permission of the Smithsonian or RAND in which permission I must join. Upon my death this interview becomes open. EDITORIAL ~SE FORM (CONT.~ MY PERMISSION REQUIRED FOR ACCESS. I mus~ give writen permission before t~e manuscrip~ or tape can be utilized o~her t~an by smithsonian or RAND s~aff :or official Smit~sonian or RAND purposes. Also my permission is required to quote, oite or reproduce by any means. Upon dea~h the 'nterview becomes open. nen) Bernard Schriever ed) ql (Da schriever, Bernard. Dates: May 18 and September 5, 1990. Interviewer: Martin Collins. Auspices: RAND. Length: 3 hrs.; 38 pp. Use restriction: Open. Schriever initially describes his pre-war military service and studies in engineering, General Arnold's interest in maintaining a close relationship between the military and scientific community, his assignment to the Scientific Liaison Office from late 1945 to 1949, the establishment of various post-war scientific advisory boards, and the relationship of these boards and RAND to the Scientific Liaison Office. He then discusses the creation of the Office of the Assistant for Development Planning in 1950 under DCS/Development, its mission to evaluate new weapons systems technologies for the period five to ten years in the future, the use of Development Planning Objectives (DPOs) in fulfilling this mission, some of the DPOs formulated while he headed the Office of the Assistant for Development Planning from 1950 to 1954, the controversies they produced, and the input of RAND and others into DPOs. May 18, 1990 TAPE 1, SIDE 1 1-3 Schriever's assignment to Pentagon after Second World War; reminiscence of General Hap Arnold and his views on the impact of technological development on the military; Schriever's background in engineering; Arnold's establishment of Air Force Scientific Liaison Office; Arnold's appointment of Theodore von Karman as his scientific advisor before Second World War 3-5 Arnold's establishment of Project RANDi definition of RAND mission and relationship with the Air Force 5-7 Relationship between RAND and Scientific Liaison Office; reminiscences of Gene Root, Larry Henderson 5-6 Establishment of assistant for development and planning 5-7 RAND studies on strategic bombing, nuclear weapons delivery from aircraft 8-9 Establishment of Scientific Advisory Board, Joint Research and Development Board, and their relationship with Scientific Liaison Office; development of Arnold Engineering Development Center; development of Edwards Air Force Flight Test Center TAPE 1, SIDE 2 9-11 Continued discussion of Scientific Liaison Office contacts with scientific community, Scientific Advisory Board, RAND, and Joint Research and Development Board; reminiscence of von Karman; vision of Hap Arnold 11-12 Difference between RAND and Scientific Advisory Board relationships with Air Force; creation or Division Advisory Groups (DAG) 12-14 Arnold's vision of what the Air Force needs were in scientific and technological capability in postwar SCHRIEVER-1 Interviewee: General Bernard Schriever Interviewer: Mr. Martin Collins Place: At General Schriever's home, Washington, D.C. Date: May 18, 1990 TAPE 1, SIDE 1 Hr. collins: Let me state for the record the objective of the interview. I'm interested in a better understanding of the relationship between RAND and the Air Force since RAND's inception in 1946, and more generally, how external expertise and advice has figured into Air Force decision making in some of the policy areas that RAND was involved with. It seems like a good beginning point is to go back to one of your first responsibilities immediately after World War II, as a chief of the Scientific Liaison Branch, and the deputy chief of staff, materiel area. I guess my initial question would be, "What were the responsibilities and objectives of that liaison branch, and how did it relate to the RAND enterprise, or did you come in contact with RAND at that point? General Schriever: Well, I think I might as well make a general statement as to what went on at that time, rather than to answer questions at this moment. You can then ask me questions. Because maybe I'll answer quite a few of the questions in just a discussion of what happened at that time. I returned from the Pacific war, after being over there about three and a half years in the southwest Pacific, in october of 1945. And had about two months' leave and more or less an opportunity--I was a colonel at the time--to determine my own assignment. I had been at wright Field prior to the war, and also at Stanford University, taking a graduate course there when the war started in December of '41. I also knew General ["Hap"] Arnold well, because he'd been my first commander at March Field when I finished flying school as a cadet in 1933. I was assigned to March Field, and he was the commander there, a lieutenant colonel at the time. Then in '34 he was also in charge of the western region, when the Air Corps was flying the airmail for several months, and he was stationed at Salt Lake City and I was stationed at Salt Lake City. SCBRIEVER-2 Getting back to my return, I was assigned to the Pentagon. That happened to be the place I wanted to go, and I was fortunate enough to get that assignment. General Arnold called me into his office and in essence expressed his view that the technology breakthroughs that had occurred in World War II, namely the nuclear weapon, rockets, radar, jet engines, would essentially revolutionize at least the equipments that the Air Force would need, that would require change of doctrine, strategy, and so forth. Hap Arnold was probably, at least in my opinion, the Air Force officer who had the greatest vision of any that I have known, including up to this time. And he made a number of speeches and wrote several memorandums or papers during that period right after the war, and took actions which I will try to enumerate, that certainly proves my point with respect to how visionary he was. He said to me, in terms of these technological and scientific breakthroughs, that the next war would be very different from the last one because of these technology breakthroughs, and that we needed to look far in advance, and not just a few years but like fifty years, which he talked about to (Theodore] von Karman, which I'll come to in a moment. He said, "The scientists who have made all these things possible in the laboratories that were created during World War II are all returning to their universities, for the most part, and other assignments that they had prior to the war." But they mostly had come from academia. He said it was absolutely essential for the Air Force, which he considered to be the leading service as far as technology was concerned, to maintain a very close interaction with the scientific community. He felt that it was essential that the Air Force work in a very harmonious, cooperative way with the scientific community, with the aircraft industry--we didn't call it aerospace at that time-­ and the Air Force. And he did several things during that time, but at that point he said, "Look, we need to set up an air staff office which has as its major function achieving the objective, as a staff officer." In support of the policy that he was enunciating, of having this very close relationship with the scientific community. And he said he wanted me to take over that office. He knew that I had, prior to the war, been at Wright Field, first as a test pilot and then as a student at what was called at that time the Air Corps Engineering School. It was a forerunner of what is now the Air Force Institute of Technology.