Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon The National Assembly for Wales The Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee

Dydd Mercher, 7 Chwefror 2007 Wednesday, 7 February 2007

Cynnwys Contents

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

Cofnodion y Cyfarfod Diwethaf a Hynt y Camau i’w Cymryd Minutes of Last Meeting and Progress on Action Points

Adroddiad y Gweinidog Minister’s Report

Rhaglen Waith Flynyddol yr UE EU Annual Work Programme

Adroddiad Blynyddol Drafft y Pwyllgor: 2006-07 Draft Committee Annual Report: 2006-07

Adroddiad Drafft y Pwyllgor Draft Committee Report

Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru The Welsh Books Council

Cofnodir y trafodion hyn yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir cyfieithiad Saesneg o gyfraniadau yn y Gymraeg.

These proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, an English translation of Welsh speeches is included.

Aelodau Cynulliad yn bresennol Assembly Members in attendance Eleanor Burnham Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal Democrats Rosemary Butler Llafur (Cadeirydd) Labour (Chair) Lisa Francis Ceidwadwyr Cymru Welsh Conservatives Denise Idris Jones Llafur Labour Laura Anne Jones Ceidwadwyr Cymru Welsh Conservatives Val Lloyd Llafur Labour Alun Pugh Llafur (Y Gweinidog dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon) Labour (The Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport)

Owen John Thomas Plaid Cymru The Party of Wales Swyddogion yn bresennol Officials in attendance Neil Cox Gwasanaeth Ymchwil yr Aelodau Members’ Research Service Gwilym Evans Pennaeth Dros Dro yr Is-adran, Y Gyfarwyddiaeth dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon Acting Head of Division, Directorate for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Margaret Evans Cyfarwyddwr, Y Gyfarwyddiaeth dros Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon Director, Directorate for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport O. Gwyn Griffiths Cynghorydd Cyfreithiol y Pwyllgor Legal Adviser to the Committee Eraill yn bresennol Others in attendance Kirsti Bohata Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru Welsh Books Council Elwyn Jones Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru Welsh Books Council Gwerfyl Pierce Jones Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru Welsh Books Council Gwasanaeth y Pwyllgor Committee Service Julia Annand Clerc Clerk Vaughan Watkin Dirprwy Glerc Deputy Clerk Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 9.00 a.m. The meeting began at 9.00 a.m. Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introduction, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

[1] Rosemary Butler: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the meeting of the Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee. It is a glorious day; it might be cold, but the building looks spectacular today. I will do the usual reminders about the Presiding Officer’s rules regarding declarations of interest. I am sure that you have all done the proper thing. I draw your attention to the paper to note from the Business Minister, which is about the new regulations to be debated on 14 February. It is very important that we take part in that debate, because the regulations will require the Welsh Language Board, as a public body, to develop a disability equality scheme. So, perhaps we can look at that. It would be helpful if we could take part in that debate.

9.01 a.m.

Cofnodion y Cyfarfod Diwethaf a Hynt y Camau i’w Cymryd Minutes of Last Meeting and Progress on Action Points

[2] Rosemary Butler: I was not present at the last meeting on 20 January, and I thank Val for chairing that meeting. Are there any points arising from those minutes? I see that there are none. As the football review was mentioned in those minutes, it is opportune to thank you very much for your support yesterday. I did not get around to mentioning everyone who contributed by name, so thank you all very much. I thought that it was a very positive debate and I look forward to the Minister’s response in six week’s time.

[3] Val Lloyd: I would like, on everyone’s behalf—though I have not asked them—to thank you and to congratulate you for your introductory and wind-up speeches in yesterday’s Plenary debate; it was a masterpiece and an example of how things should be done. We were all cheering. The hush that descended during your closing speech was comment in itself.

[4] Rosemary Butler: Thank you. It was a good debate and there were some good contributions, not just by members of the committee, but by other Assembly Members. [5] Eleanor Burnham: Has there been a response from the governing body for football in Wales?

[6] Rosemary Butler: I do not think that it is appropriate to ask that this morning. I would have thought that the governing body would have been in Northern Ireland last night, concentrating on the national game. However, we will wait and see.

Cadarnhawyd cofnodion y cyfarfod blaenorol.

The minutes of the previous meeting were ratified.

9.03 a.m.

Adroddiad y Gweinidog Minister’s Report

[7] Rosemary Butler: Minister, would you like to present your report?

[8] The Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport (Alun Pugh): Before I move to the items included in my report, I would like to make a few points. On Tuesday 30 January, the casino advisory panel announced that the city of Manchester would be the recommended location for the one regional casino that is permitted under the Gambling Act 2005. I know that Cardiff County Council is disappointed that its application failed, but it has said that it will continue to regenerate Cardiff bay and, in particular, proceed with the development of the international sports village. The news for the city of Swansea was different. As Swansea Members will know, Swansea succeeded in its application to host one of the eight smaller casinos.

[9] Ddoe, cyhoeddais y bydd Urdd Gobaith Yesterday, I announced that Urdd Gobaith Cymru yn derbyn £650,000 gan Lywodraeth Cymru will receive £650,000 from the Welsh Cynulliad Cymru drwy Fwrdd yr Iaith Gymraeg Assembly Government through the Welsh yn 2007. Bydd yr arian ychwanegol yn cefnogi Labguage Board in 2007. The additional money eisteddfod yr Urdd. will support the Urdd eisteddfod.

[10] Turning to my report, the Wales Millennium Centre’s increased loan facility and the Assembly Government’s guarantee of that loan came into effect legally on 15 January. I will continue to make regular reports on the WMC to the Culture, Welsh Language and Sport Committee. On 1 February, I tabled a written statement under Standing Order No. 21 to extend the Welsh Assembly Government’s guarantee of a £0.5 million loan from the Principality building society to the Arts Council of Wales to enable ACW to extend the Collectorplan scheme for a further two years. The extension of the Principality’s loan for Collectorplan will allow more galleries to be registered with the scheme and a greater number of loans to be made. The expanded scheme would benefit artists working and displaying their work in Wales, the galleries of Wales, and people wanting to own works of art. It is an excellent example of the public and private sectors working together to increase the accessibility of the arts to the public. [11] I was pleased to attend the launch of the Arts and Business Cymru awards in Cardiff on 23 January. As we are aware, the arts review report highlighted the important role that Arts and Business Cymru plays, and its strategic importance for the future development of the arts in Wales. The awards recognise this important work and I wish all the nominees every success.

[12] In my report I have also included information on the culture budget for 2006-07, and I have two quick points to make. The first point relates to CyMAL, which, as I previously advised in my Minister’s report to committee on 11 October, has a programme budget of £2 million. Much of that programme budget provides grants to museums, archives and libraries and, so far, around 14 per cent of that budget has been distributed. However, I am not anticipating an underspend on that budget, because the vast majority of these organisations complete their work and claim grants towards the end of the financial year, so I fully expect that budget line to be used.

[13] Staying with libraries, I announced a major £2.5 million investment in libraries a few weeks ago. One thing that a lot of people do not know is that Wales is the most active part of the whole of the United Kingdom when it comes to borrowing books, on a per capita basis. If you drill down below those figures and look at which parts of Wales borrow books, it is interesting to see that Valley authorities are at the top; for example Caerphilly has the highest book-borrowing habit of just about anywhere in the whole of the UK. It is really great to see Valley communities like Caerphilly, Rhondda Cynon Taf and Bridgend at the very top of the book-borrowing league table, not just for Wales, but for the whole of the UK.

[14] The second budgetary point relates to Cadw’s capital expenditure. Traditionally, capital expenditure increases rapidly in the last quarter of the financial year, as the large capital contracts start, in order to avoid lots of building work going on during the height of the tourist season. So, that will be picking up rapidly as we move towards the end of the financial year and, again, I am expecting full budget expenditure on that line. There have been around 230 small capital projects approved under the active lifestyle fund for communities, which will provide a whole range of opportunities for people to get out and to get those health benefits, over the length and breadth of Wales. If Members are interested, I can provide a full list of exactly where all those projects are going on—there are a lot of them, but I would be happy to do that. I see some nods around the table, so I am happy to do that. I will be making a further announcement on this fund, specifically with regard to cycling initiatives. This was very much a demand-led programme, to allow local authorities and voluntary groups to come forward with schemes. Looking at the schemes and at the plans that are coming forward, it was obvious how popular small-scale cycling initiatives were; so, as a way of responding to that, we have put together a cycling programme, which we will be announcing in the next few weeks.

[15] Laura Anne Jones: Minister, I welcome the investment in sport that you describe on page 1 of your report. You have not included what you have done, what you have achieved and what this money means for those who are disabled. Also, on the 5x60 scheme, you say that 42 secondary schools have taken it up. What is the geographical spread of those schools? When do you think all schools will take it up? How are you ensuring that disabled young people are able to benefit wholly from those schemes in schools? [16] On page 8 of your report, you say that you met representatives of the Football Association of Wales on 11 December, when you discussed a number of issues. In light of our report yesterday, did you discuss that with them and receive any feedback?

9.10 a.m.

[17] Finally, you say that you met with the UK Sports Cabinet about the Olympics in 2012. I understand that you probably have more detail now on how the Olympic Games will benefit Wales. Can you expand on that, please?

[18] Alun Pugh: I am happy to supply you with a note on sport for people with disabilities. We have done a great deal of work on this; it has been a consistent feature of our remit letters to the sports council. It is not just about the contribution of elite athletes—they have made a fantastic contribution, which we need to celebrate—and I will supply you with a detailed note on that.

[19] You then asked about the 5x60 project. This builds on Dragon Sport. Dragon Sport is primarily in primary schools, while 5x60 is a project that is aimed at secondary schools. As its title implies, we want to see people in Wales of secondary school age being physically active for five times a week for a minimum of 60 minutes a time. That is the minimum amount of exercise that the medical community recommends for a health benefit, and we know that significant numbers of young people in Wales do not get anywhere near that level of exercise. They tend to be ferried to school in cars, even though the trip to school is sometimes very short. Once school is over, instead of getting involved in after-school sports, they get involved in everything from homework to computer games. Homework, of course, is very important, but unless people have that level of activity, they are storing up all sorts of health problems for further down the line. If you look at the obesity statistics, particularly those for children and young people in Wales, some of the trends are very worrying, and whoever will be the Minister responsible for health in 20 years’ time will face major problems with type 2 diabetes and all sorts of related problems unless we can reverse those trends.

[20] You talked about the geographic distribution; this is being rolled out progressively across Wales. At the moment, in this early stage, every local authority is coming forward with its plans, but there is a bias in the programme towards more deprived areas, which is quite deliberate, because we know that deprived communities experience the worst health. Therefore, there is a bias towards deprived communities in the initial roll-out, but we want to extend this to all schools in due course. As far as the linguistic issues are concerned, there is a mixture of English-medium and Welsh-medium schools.

[21] You then raised with me the issue of the Football Association of Wales and the meeting that I had where we discussed a number of issues, such as potential collaboration for future international tournaments. It would be great if we could get a major European final into the Millennium Stadium. There are issues about getting the Champions League final into the Millennium Stadium, not because of the quality of the stadium—the issues are largely about the size of hospitality area that needs to be arranged for that. We would love to have a Union of European Football Associations final, and we have discussed that with the FAW. [22] I also had the opportunity to discuss the FAW’s Welsh-language policy. I know that this has been controversial in the past. As a major governing body for one of our truly national sports, a sport in which a huge number of people have a great interest, it is entirely reasonable for the FAW to operate in both our national languages. There has been a significant improvement in FAW policy concerning the Welsh language in recent months, and I welcome that. I know that there was great unhappiness within the game because people wanted to go through a disciplinary committee through the medium of Welsh and routine correspondence in Welsh was not being replied to to the standard that we would all like to see in this committee. So, there has been a positive move on that.

[23] As far as the committee’s report is concerned, it was not published when I met the FAW, therefore it was not appropriate to discuss it. No doubt that will be something that I will discuss with the FAW at future meetings. Standing Orders require that I make a formal response to the Assembly in a few weeks’ time, so I am afraid that you will have to wait for that formal response.

[24] The UK Sports Cabinet discussed a number of issues. You will be aware that we are looking to host the school Olympics here in south Wales, and the Sports Cabinet talked about some of the mechanics around that. We also discussed how possible cost overruns at the 2012 Olympics might be accommodated. You will be aware that the Olympics is being partly financed by lottery contributions, partly by a precept on London council tax payers, and partly by the UK taxpayer, and it is a bit of a balancing act. It is obvious that the original cost forecasts were an underestimate, and we had a major terrorist outrage in London the day after the city won the Olympics, so there had to be some serious rethinking of security issues. However, the question of how that cost overrun will be accommodated has not been decided. You will understand that I have major reservations about hitting national lottery pots for serious cost overruns, because the lottery supports good causes, not just across Wales, but across the whole of the UK outside of London. Many of us will know of small-scale lottery-funded projects that have done a great deal of good in our communities, so I have reservations about using the lottery to completely finance all cost overruns. However, those are the issues that we discussed in the Sports Cabinet.

[25] Val Lloyd: I have a number of issues that I would like to raise, starting with the sport and community regeneration programme. Obviously it is pleasing that there is some funding for that, but could the Minister give me some more information about the community champions? I think that they are an excellent idea, but it would be helpful if you could perhaps give me more information. When are they expected to be appointed? Who will appoint them? Is this an initiative for local authorities to take forward?

[26] On the ‘Climbing Higher’ swimming improvement fund, could you tell me whether there are any projects dealing with increasing ethnic minority participation? I know that some areas hold ladies-only sessions, which have proved relatively popular, but I think that the take-up among ethnic minorities is still minimal, and I would be grateful if you had some information on that. The extra funding for libraries is very welcome. I am always delighted to go to the library, and in fact two of my four monthly surgeries are held in libraries, in the late afternoon, just after school ends, and I get the opportunity to see children pouring into the library, which is to be welcomed. However, will local authorities have to bid for this extra money that you mentioned, or will it simply be added to their budget allocation? If there is to be a bidding process, when are you expecting the bids? [27] Then, if I could comment on the additional funding for the national eisteddfod, you said that the money is conditional, and I wondered if you could elaborate on those conditions. We saw this year how the eisteddfod can appeal to a wider audience—that was certainly the case in Swansea—as part of the eisteddfod’s modernisation programme, and that was very welcome and heartening. More information on the conditions would be useful.

[28] I am getting there—this is the last point now. I have been a little self-indulgent, but I would like to welcome the money for cricketers; cricket is a great passion of mine and I am delighted to see it in the Minister’s report.

9.20 a.m.

[29] Alun Pugh: I will start with the last point first. As a longstanding cricket fan—and a season- ticket holder, I understand—you must be very pleased that the Ashes are coming to Wales. The Ashes will sit on top of a programme of participation in cricket, so it is not just a matter of our getting the Ashes in without paying any attention to grass-roots cricket. Grass-roots cricket is an important feature of that plan.

[30] As far as swimming and small capital schemes are concerned, this is very much a case of the Assembly Government supporting local authority initiatives, and it depends on what is appropriate for that community. In my patch, for example, some of that money has gone to provide things such as new lockers and better changing facilities at Abergele swimming pool. In Cardiff, blinds have been deployed at some of the public swimming pools for women-only sessions. A number of women were not happy with the idea of mixed-sex sessions, so women-only sessions were run. I know that some members of the Muslim community were not happy because, even though there were women-only sessions, some of the swimming pools have giant picture windows and people who were walking past on the street could see straight in to the pool area. Cardiff, at a very modest cost, arranged for blinds to cover the windows for the women-only sessions. It is not just the Muslim women who have mentioned that it is a very positive development. A lot of non-Muslim women have been very happy to have that level of privacy for their swimming sessions. So it is a matter of allowing local authorities and local teams, who know their patch very well, to put proposals to us for small-scale capital investment. It has been very successful. I will let you have the detailed list of what has been approved in different parts of Wales.

[31] You then asked about library provision. I mentioned in my original report that Wales is one of the best performing areas of the UK with regard to activities in libraries, in terms of book borrowing. I am pleased that Wales is the only part of the UK where, for example, there is free access to the internet. In some other parts of the UK, in some counties in England, for example, local authorities have decided to charge for that service. Across Wales, we have a public-service broadband network, financed partly by the Assembly Government, and libraries the length and breadth of Wales—almost every large public library—have an internet connection and no-one charges for it. I am pleased about that. [32] Additional capital investment will not go out automatically to local authorities: they have to bid for it and it is provided on the basis of something for something. The bid will allow for additional investment in furniture, shelving and kit or, for example, if a local authority wanted to turn a library into a Wi-Fi zone, which would involve capital expenditure. We have seen that for several tens of thousands of pounds—up to around £100,000—it is possible to undertake a major refurbishment of a library. We do not pay for the books; we expect additional books to come in as part of the local authority contribution, because that is their responsibility. However, the combination of the local authority making an investment in book stock, for example, and the Assembly Government meeting the authority more than half way with a pretty big capital investment in furniture can transform a public library. Where we have had this investment in Wales—and we have not had nearly enough such investment in the past—people have responded very positively. Oystermouth library has had a major refurbishment—I do not think that Oystermouth is in your constituency, Val, but it is pretty close to you—as has Barry library, which I think that one or two members of the committee have seen. When you have the local authority investing in a library, there is a significant upturn in the number of visits to the library to use all the different services, and book-lending figures tend to go through the roof. Therefore, the public responds well to these investments. With a capital building pot of around £1.5 million, in crude terms, we will see around 15 of these schemes coming to fruition in Wales in the first year.

[33] On the national eisteddfod, we have made an additional announcement of support for it, to enable its programme of modernisation to continue. The eisteddfod has done some excellent work on this, and it has broadened out of its remit. That is not to say in any way that the Welsh rule has been diluted, but simultaneous translation facilities and bilingual greeters are now available, and there is a willingness to engage with all parts of the community. You mentioned Swansea; it was good to see serious and substantial efforts being made to engage local Communities First communities with the eisteddfod, with free entry, and so on. That is the type of work that we are looking forward to. Therefore, we want to work in partnership with the eisteddfod. This year’s eisteddfod is going to the edge of Mold, and it is good to see the initial response of the business community and people in Mold to that announcement. I believe that it will have a significant impact on the economy of that area, and press coverage has been positive.

[34] Val Lloyd: On the community champions—

[35] Rosemary Butler: I am sorry, Val, could you repeat that? The acoustic is not very good in here this morning.

[36] Val Lloyd: I do not know whether the Minister has remembered my question on community champions.

[37] Alun Pugh: I will write to you with the details of that, Val.

[38] Rosemary Butler: I still did not catch that, but that is fine. [39] Eleanor Burnham: I am pleased to see an extension of any programme, including Dragon Sport. Could we have more details on that, particularly on which schools have taken it up, and so on? I keep asking about the take-up of free swimming; can we have some feedback about which local authorities are participating, and what kind of feedback you are having on difficulties? I believe that we have mentioned before that transport does not allow take-up in certain authorities. I am pleased about the library use. Wrexham library, which is one of my most local libraries, is an excellent library, as most libraries are now; it is wonderful to see them being used.

[40] Yr wyf yn falch gweld bod mwy o arian yn I am pleased to see more money going to the mynd tuag at eisteddfod yr Urdd, neu tuag at yr Urdd eisteddfod, or to the Urdd generally. I also Urdd yn gyffredinol. Yr wyf hefyd yn welcome the additional funding for the national croesawu’r arian ychwangeol tuag at yr eisteddfod. I am sure that we are all looking eisteddfod gendedlaethol. Yr wyf yn siwr ein forward to going to Mold in the summer. bod i gyd yn edrych ymlaen at fynd i’r Wyddgrug yn yr haf.

[41] Mae gennyf gwestiwn am eisteddfod I have a question on the Llangollen eisteddfod, Llangollen, fel un o’r dirprwy lywyddion. as one of the vice presidents.

[42] Rosemary Butler: Is that in the Minister’s report?

[43] Eleanor Burnham: No, but I hope that it is okay to mention it.

[44] Rosemary Butler: Try to stick to the report if you can.

[45] Eleanor Burnham: Well, it is on an eisteddfod.

[46] Mae gennyf ddiddordeb mawr yn yr hyn I have a great interest in the Llangollen sy’n digwydd gydag eisteddfod Llangollen, eisteddfod, which looks out towards the world, sy’n edrych allan at y byd ac yn gwerthu and sells Wales throughout the world. Cymru ledled y byd.

[47] Ar y Fforwm Iaith, yr wyf yn cofio On the Fforwm Iaith, I remember attending one mynychu un o’r rhain ym Mhorthmadog, ac ni of these in Porthmadog, and I did not get the chefais siawns i siarad. A fydd y Fforwm Iaith opportunity to speak. Will the Fforwm Iaith be yn agored i Aelodau’r Cynulliad? open to Assembly Members?

[48] I have some concerns about lottery funding. I know that London will be fantastic as the Olympic host. However, I am concerned about how much lottery funding it will suck in from Wales, or how much we will lose. We can all see now, unless the papers got it wrong, that the expectation of the needs of the Olympics is huge—I believe that it is about three times what was originally estimated. How will you ensure that Wales does not lose out in that regard?

9.30 a.m. [49] Finally, I was excited—because I do not believe that I have been to a netball match since I was at school—to go to the Wales versus South Africa international match at the leisure centre in Queensferry a few weeks ago. I was concerned—and I have mentioned this before—that, although Flintshire provided the facilities to the best of its abilities, half the spectators, including a member of my staff and her daughter, were turned away because, unfortunately, there are not the facilities there to cope with all those people, which I thought was pretty dire considering that it was such an exciting international match.

[50] Furthermore, I was recently shown a letter that had come from one of your officials on the Wrexham Racecourse and I was concerned that it seemed to backtrack on the promises that you had made at the Racecourse launch in December. Could you comment on that?

[51] Alun Pugh: I will start with the swimming. Swimming is a national scheme and every local authority participates in the free swimming scheme for all schoolchildren during school holidays and for all the over-sixties. However, I will let members have details of the additional capital grant scheme because that has been a question of local authorities making bids; some have used it to improve changing rooms and others have provided additional investment in facilities for people with disabilities, in extra lessons and so on. So, I will let you have a full list of projects approved under that budget line.

[52] Dragon Sport is a primary-school sport scheme and primary schools, for many years, have been involved in it; it has been pretty successful. However, the problem is that we have not had an equivalent programme running in secondary schools and that is the gap that 5x60 picks up.

[53] The Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod receives its grants through the Arts Council of Wales. I can get you a note on the details of its budget allocation. However, what is pretty obvious to me about that eisteddfod is that it has made major steps to redesign its programme. Although it had been successful in the past, a couple of years ago, it was in some danger of losing its way, but it has made a great effort during these last years and I am full of admiration for the members of the managerial team there, who have done a lot of work to bring the eisteddfod up to date; they have done a great job.

[54] There have been two announcements of funds: one for the national eisteddfod, along the lines that I mentioned earlier in terms of its modernisation programme, and there has been a separate announcement of grants for the Urdd eisteddfod. However, that continuous investment in the Urdd is not only for its eisteddfod, important though that is, but for its year-round work, not just in the cultural, but also in the sporting area. It is a major partner of the Assembly Government in delivering our ‘Iaith Pawb’ agenda.

[55] Did you mention the Fforwm Iaith?

[56] Eleanor Burnham: Yes. [57] Alun Pugh: A Fforwm Iaith meeting is coming up in Llangollen shortly. Like previous fora, the meeting has a theme. There have been themes on education and so on, but the theme of the next meeting will be on the development of services in the Welsh language in the health service. John Griffiths, the Deputy Minister for health, with specific responsibility for the Welsh language, will join me, along with the chair of the Welsh Language Board in Llangollen in the near future. It is a public meeting, so it is open to anyone to attend. Assembly Members are welcome to come along, but it is the public’s opportunity to ask questions. Assembly Members have regular opportunities in committee and Plenary to scrutinise the Assembly Government’s work. We all have this privileged ability to scrutinise the Government’s decisions, but this is the public’s show. So, by all means, come along, but perhaps we should think about letting the public get their say first. The only disappointment that there has been with regard to the Fforwm Iaith, since we started it has been in the number of English speakers attending the fforwm. We, of course, provide simultaneous translation facilities, and we generally get a pretty good turnout. However, just about everybody who comes to Fforwm Iaith is a Welsh speaker. The Welsh language belongs to everybody in Wales, and, in addition to the traditional Welsh-speaking audience at Fforwm Iaith meetings, I would like to discuss with people in bilingual communities, such as Llangollen, how we can achieve our ‘Iaith Pawb’ aims and how we can grow Welsh-medium education and embed the Welsh language more broadly in our culture. It is very much an open invitation, and just because you do not speak Welsh does not mean that you cannot have an opinion about it. The meeting is very much an open and public one, and I hope that many people come.

[58] You talked about the Racecourse—I will come back to netball in a minute. I have said previously on many occasions how I regard the Racecourse as being strategically important for national sport. Of course, Wrexham AFC is the anchor tenant, and many in my part of the world take a close interest in Wrexham, although, we are a bit concerned by some of the recent results and the team’s precarious position in the league. Apart from Wrexham’s own interest in that ground, I think that it is the only place north of the M4 in Wales that can host an international rugby or football fixture. If a north Wales club gets a plum FA Cup tie or a major European game, it is just about the only place where you can hold that, so the Racecourse is of absolute strategic importance to sport in north Wales, and I want to have a continuous dialogue with the local authority and private business that has an interest in that stadium. We really do want to see that stadium continue forever, and we have played a major part in this, because, obviously, we have invested a substantial amount of public money and we were, therefore, a creditor in that financial rearrangement. We certainly played our part in securing the future of the stadium, and we are very happy indeed to have discussions with anyone who has an interest in redeveloping the stadium. I know that people are particularly interested in the Kop end, which is a standing end and, even though many of us enjoy standing to watch a football match, there are issues with regard to international regulations. We are happy to enter into positive discussions about future development plans for the Racecourse.

[59] Finally, you mentioned netball. I have been to Queensferry to see an international netball game. I was sorry that not everybody could get in, apparently, because of pressure and lack of capacity, but one cannot always get into a sporting event, as many of the people who wanted to go to the Wales versus Ireland game found out.

[60] Eleanor Burnham: Can I come back on that point? [61] Rosemary Butler: We will just finish, and then you can come back. We have plenty of time.

[62] Eleanor Burnham: It is only a small point.

[63] Rosemary Butler: Well, do not raise any new points, Eleanor, because I have five other questions.

[64] Eleanor Burnham: I am not going to raise any new points, because the Minister has not answered my specific question about an official letter from one of his officials to Wrexham council. It happened recently—I cannot remember the date, but I think that I have brought the matter up with you before, Minister. The letter seems to backtrack on your very erudite words that you will help Wrexham Racecourse. The netball match was not just a disappointment; it was very frustrating because half the spectators were turned away.

[65] With your indulgence, Chair—

[66] Rosemary Butler: Eleanor, will you finish there, please?

[67] Eleanor Burnham: No. Minister, you have not answered my question on the lottery.

[68] Rosemary Butler: Finish there, Eleanor. Minister, can you answer the question about the letter, please?

[69] Alun Pugh: This morning, I made a statement on the record about how the Welsh Assembly Government sees the Racecourse as a crucial part of Wales’s sporting infrastructure. I stand by those words. Nobody will expect the Assembly Government to have an open commitment, regardless of what the development proposals are. We want to enter into discussions on a positive basis with the local authority or the private owners of equity in Wrexham AFC. We approach the matter with an open mind, and we want to see that stadium development, but we are clearly not in the business of issuing an open commitment with regard to public funds.

9.40 a.m.

[70] As far as spectators are concerned, obviously, it is great that people want to see sport, but in many sports, there is a lack of capacity. That phenomenon is not always seen in netball, but it is regularly seen in other sports. Sometimes, venues simply do not have the capacity to allow everyone who wants to see the game in; it happens with netball and also with sports such as football and rugby.

[71] Denise Idris Jones: Neithiwr, cefais y Denise Idris Jones: Last night, I had the pleser o gael swper yng nghanolfan yr Urdd ar pleasure of dining at the Urdd centre across the draws y ffordd yng nghanolfan y mileniwm road at the millennium centre with year 6 pupils gyda disgyblion blwyddyn 6 o Ysgol y Garnedd from Ysgol y Garnedd primary school in ym Mangor. Cefais hefyd gyfle i gael sgwrs hir Bangor. I also had the opportunity to have a gyda’r prifathro. lengthy conversation with the headteacher. [72] I mentioned to him that we had been debating the football review, in which he was very interested. He asked me what action the Assembly was taking to co-ordinate sport activities outside school with schooling, for example, football commitments. He talked about Dragon Sport, but one of his pupils was travelling from Bangor to the academy in Wrexham, and he had had very little assistance from Dragon Sport—so far, he had only received 15 footballs from it, which was a concern for him.

[73] Owen John Thomas: I have not even got one football.

[74] Denise Idris Jones: Nid oes achos cael 50 Denise Idris Jones: There is no cause to have pêl droed. 50 footballs.

[75] Rosemary Butler: Do you have a question?

[76] Denise Idris Jones: I will go on to my other question, as I only have two questions. How are you targeting local authority areas whose populations have the most inactive lifestyles, and how are the sport and regeneration programmes being measured and monitored?

[77] Alun Pugh: We know that Wales, overall, is pretty inactive as a nation. We have seen some helpful increases of around 1 percentage point a year in participation levels, which is in line with the challenging targets that we set in ‘Climbing Higher’. However, we know that the growth in participation has come from a very low base. At the moment, the substantial majority of the Welsh population do not get enough exercise in sport or active recreation—it does not have to be a form of sport—to get to the level of health protection that medical professionals recommend. So, we want to grow that.

[78] If we drill down below that, we know that the least physically active areas of Wales are also the areas that have the worst health. To make a comparison between Monmouth and Blaenau Gwent, for example, there are substantial differences in health outcomes and life expectancy between those two parts of Wales. Much of it is tied up with differences in income, and that follows through. Differential activity rates in sport and active recreation across different parts of Wales is something that concerns me. What you see in the design of our programmes is that, although they are all-Wales programmes, there is a specific bias towards less-privileged communities. Although the 5x60 pilot programmes have been rolled out across Wales, we are making sure that English-medium and Welsh-medium schools are involved, but there is a bias towards the less-advantaged areas where we know that the health outcomes are the worst. So, there is a consistent bias in our programmes and I think that that is absolutely right.

[79] You mentioned the individual problems around Dragon Sport; I would be happy to take that up in correspondence with you. We know that elite athletes in all sports make considerable sacrifices to represent their country—be that in football, gymnastics or whatever. There are a number of programmes in place to help with things such as travelling expenses for people who are right at the top of their game, and do not get support from any other areas. I need to talk to you or deal with the issue that you brought up through correspondence. Dragon Sport is an all-Wales programme, but if a particular school is not receiving the level of support that it should be getting, in terms of coaching, kit or whatever, I would be very happy to discuss that with you. [80] Owen John Thomas: Ym mhwynt 2 eich Owen John Thomas: In point 2 of your report, adroddiad, sy’n ymwneud â’r celfyddydau, yr which relates to the arts, first, you discuss the ydych yn gyntaf yn trafod Canolfan Mileniwm Wales Millennium Centre and the guarantee. Cymru a’r warant. A yw’r cynnydd yn y warant Does the increase in the guarantee reflect yn adlewyrchu menter a thwf neu rywbeth initiative and growth or does it reflect arall? Hoffwn weld adroddiad sy’n sôn am sut something else? I would like to see a report that mae’r ganolfan yn ei wneud ac yn y blaen. discusses how the centre is doing and so on. I Gobeithiaf y gallwn dderbyn hynny cyn diwedd hope that we can receive that before the end of y Cynulliad hwn. this Assembly.

[81] Mae’r cynllun i roi benthyciadau i brynu The scheme to provide loans to buy works of lluniau yn gynllun gwych. Eto, hoffwn weld art is excellent. Again, I would like to see a adroddiad ar sut y gweithredwyd y cynllun o report on how the scheme was previously dan yr hen drefn gyda’r gyllideb o £250,000: operated with a budget of £250,000: how many faint o bobl a oedd yn ei ddefnyddio ac ym mha people used the scheme and which part of rannau o Gymru yr oedd fwyaf poblogaidd ac Wales made the greatest use of it, and so on. yn y blaen. Byddai hynny’n ddiddorol i’w That would be interesting. The two reports are weld. Mae’r ddau adroddiad presennol yn foel. currently sparse. The same is true of the third Mae’r un peth yn wir am y trydydd pwynt point, about the prizes awarded by Arts and ynglyn â gwobrau Celf a Busnes. Byddai’n Business. It would be interesting to see exactly ddiddorol darganfod beth yn union y mae what it has done and who has received these wedi’i wneud a phwy sydd wedi cael y awards, and so on. gwobrau hyn, ac yn y blaen.

[82] Hoffwn symud ymlaen i drafod y cyllid ar I would like to move on to discuss the funding gyfer llyfrgelloedd. Mae’n dipyn o sioc i that is available to libraries. It is quite a shock glywed mai dim ond 14 y cant o’r gyllideb sydd to hear that only 14 per cent of the budget has wedi’i wario erbyn mis Chwefror, sy’n fis byr, been spent by February, which is a short month, a dim ond deufis sydd ar ôl yn y flwyddyn. and there are only two months left of this year. Gwn o brofiad fod tueddiad ymysg pobl sy’n I know from experience that there is a tendency cael cyllid fel hyn i’w gadw tan ddiwedd y among those who receive this sort of funding to flwyddyn. Clywais unwaith am rywun a oedd keep the money until the end of the year. I once wedi prynu llond ystafell o amlenni; nid heard of someone who bought a roomful of oeddynt am ddangos i’r Llywodraeth nad oedd envelopes; they did not want to show the ganddynt unrhyw beth i wario’r arian arno, Government that there was nothing on which felly yr oeddynt yn prynu unrhyw beth. Os nad they could spend, so they bought anything that oeddynt yn gwario pob ceiniog, efallai y byddai they could. Unless all the money was spent, rhai yn meddwl nad oedd arnynt angen cymaint some could think that they did not need so o arian. Mae 86 y cant o’r gyllideb heb ei much money. Eight-six per cent of the budget is wario; credaf fod angen edrych ar hynny. unspent; I believe that there is a need to look into that. [83] Ar yr iaith Gymraeg, ac yn benodol ar y On the Welsh language, and specifically on the pwynt ynglyn â rhaglen moderneiddio’r point relating to the eisteddfod’s modernisation eisteddfod a’r ffaith bod yr arian yn amodol, yr programme and the fact that the money is oeddwn yn gwybod fod yr eisteddfod wedi bod conditional, we knew that the eisteddfod had yn gwneud newidiadau; yr oedd wedi ymestyn been making changes; it had extended its use of ei ddefnydd o gyfieithu ar y pryd cyn i’r simultaneous translation before the Assembly Cynulliad cael ei sefydlu. Pa amodau eraill was established. What other conditions have sydd wedi eu gosod? been set?

[84] Ar y cyfarfod gyda chabinet chwaraeon y With regard to the meeting of the United Deyrnas Unedig, yr ydych yn dweud eich bod Kingdom sports cabinet, you say that you are yn poeni ynglyn â chael y cydbwysedd iawn concerned about ensuring the right balance rhwng Llundain a’r loteri. Gyda pharch, between London and the lottery. With respect, Weinidog, teimlaf y byddai’n well pe baech yn Minister, I feel that it would be better if you edrych ar y cydbwysedd rhwng yr arian loteri looked at the balance between the lottery sy’n dod i Gymru a’r arian loteri sy’n cael ei money that comes to Wales and the lottery dynnu oddi ar Gymru i gyfrannu at gostau’r money that is being taken away from Wales to Gemau Olympaidd, yn arbennig gan mai chi contribute to the costs of the Olympic Games, sy’n gyfrifol am chwaraeon yng Nghymru. particularly as you are responsible for sports in Dylech sicrhau nad yw Cymru ar ei cholled. Wales. You should ensure that Wales does not lose out.

[85] Yn olaf, yr wyf yn synnu na fu ichi drafod Finally, I am surprised that you did not discuss yr arolwg yn eich trafodaethau â Chymdeithas the review when you spoke to the Football Bêl Droed Cymru. Wedi’r cyfan, yr oedd yr Association of Wales. After all, the review was arolwg ar waith ar y pryd—os nad ar fin dod i already under way—if not nearly ben—ac yr oedd yn bwysig iawn. Dyma’r completed—and it was very important. Now is amser i geisio denu’r gymdeithas; ni ddylid ei the time to attempt to draw the association adael am flwyddyn. Dylem fanteisio ar y cyfle i closer; we should not leave it for a year. We dwymo’r berthynas er mwyn inni allu cynnal should make the most of the opportunity to trafodaethau gyda’r gymdeithas. strengthen the relationship so that we can hold discussions with the association.

9.50 a.m.

[86] Alun Pugh: I will start with the Wales Millennium Centre. We have never had a facility like this in Wales before and many people were concerned at the start about the size of the Donald Gordon Theatre and the number of tickets that would need to be sold. However, the footfall has been very good. It has done a pretty good job, artistically. We have seen a wide variety of events taking place, everything from international-standard ballet and our own much-loved Welsh National Opera, down to more popular events. It has been a great success; it has been very successful indeed in getting tickets sold. However, now is a good time to have a detailed review, so I have asked some independent consultants to examine the business, top to bottom. When the report is complete, we can look at the whole picture, including the success of the footfall, the audience mix, how successful the business has been at controlling its cost base—the whole works. I am sure that Members will want to see that. [87] In the meantime, we have had a major loan guarantee. Since the centre was opened, I think that this is the third or the fourth time that we have renewed the loan guarantee. That has been a feature of the centre since it opened. So, for now, I am very happy to confirm the loan guarantee of £13.5 million. However, a couple of years after the opening of the centre is a good time to have a proper look at the centre’s artistic mission at one end, and its financial performance at the other, and to see how it compares with, and benchmark it against, other major arts venues across the UK, such as the Lowry Centre in Manchester.

[88] I am happy to provide you with details of the Collectorplan loan guarantee, the number of loans that have been taken out and so on. The Principality building society has played a good role in this. The fact that we have guaranteed the loan, as a Government, has enabled the Arts Council of Wales to get the finance at a good price. I am happy to provide you with the details of that loan.

[89] To be honest, I cannot remember who won all the different Arts and Business awards last year and who was nominated. However, I will ask Arts and Business to send you a detailed note of that or, if Members prefer, I can provide that as a background note to the committee.

[90] On museum grants, it is always the case that people are slow to get their claims in. As I said, I am not expecting an underperformance on budget on that. I fully expect that all the money in the budget will be claimed. However, you do not need to worry about spending on stationery, Owen John. The loan has pretty strict conditions with regard to what the money can be spent on. Therefore, if someone decided that they would like to fill their stationery cupboard many times over, they would not be able to claim the money in the first place. So, we are going to spend all that money, but it will be done strictly in accordance with the terms of the original grant application.

[91] On the eisteddfod, you are right in saying that some of that work, such as simultaneous translation, was in place before the Assembly came along. However, the additional investment has allowed more of that work to take place and enabled it to branch out and access deprived communities. I was particularly pleased to see arrangements with Communities First areas at last year’s eisteddfod in Swansea; that was a very good development indeed. I would like to see far more of that in future. I am sure that we will see that happening when the eisteddfod pitches its tents on the other side of the hill from my home in Ruthin in the summer.

[92] On the Olympics, getting the balance right between the UK taxpayer, London council tax payers and the lottery is going to be tricky. No decisions have yet been made. I suppose that many of us would be very happy to see the burden of the additional cost overrun fall entirely on London council tax payers, but I am not sure that Ken Livingstone and London residents would see things in quite the same way. However, it is important to get the balance right so that the real benefits to the London area are properly reflected in London council tax payments but we all stand to benefit from having the Olympics in the UK. An interesting number of inquiries have been made by Welsh businesses in order to learn how they can get a slice of the Olympic contracts. I think that the Member of Parliament for Blaenau Gwent asked a Parliamentary question about his constituency on that matter. [93] As far as football is concerned, I was conscious of my responsibilities as Minister, rather than as a representative of the committee. I certainly did not want to cut across the committee’s review, and I did not see it as my job, as Minister, to be almost a committee ambassador, because that is a job for the Chair. So, our discussions were primarily focused on future international competitions, the role of the Welsh language policy, and so on. As the committee report is now in the public domain, it will be a strong feature of future meetings. However, I will have a lot more to say about that when I make my formal statement in Plenary.

[94] Laura Anne Jones: Everyone in this committee knows how passionate I am about cricket. Val Lloyd has already mentioned it, but 2009 is not far away now, and in order to capitalise on the fact that we are holding the Ashes, we need to ensure that cricket facilities across Wales are brought up to scratch. There is a severe lack of such facilities, as I have pointed out many times. What investment will you put in, before 2009, to ensure that, when everyone wants to play cricket, they are able to do so?

[95] Rosemary Butler: Eleanor, do you want to add anything?

[96] Eleanor Burnham: I had not realised that you were also leading us towards the budget. We have not had a chance to question that, but I would just like to know—

[97] Rosemary Butler: You have had the opportunity.

[98] Eleanor Burnham: On page 10, there is mention of other revenue funding of £831,000; what does that refer to? On page 11, it says that Patagonia has been allocated a sum of £35,000; why does it not appear to have taken up any of that money?

[99] Alun Pugh: I will deal with the cricket question first. It is great that we are holding the Ashes, but it is part of a package; it is not just about the Ashes event itself. It is important that we have grass-roots investment, to ensure that the benefits are widely spread. In my area of Colwyn Bay, well away from the Ashes venue, people are excited about the greater focus on cricket, but it does not mean to say that every initiative in cricket in England, for example, will be carbon-copied across to Wales. We need to do what is right for the structure of the game in Wales.

[100] On the budgets, you mentioned Patagonia. The case is that the money has simply not been claimed yet. The money is in the budget and will not be taken away. There has been a small increase in the funding to our cultural exchanges in Patagonia, because it is the only community, I believe, outside Wales, where we have substantial numbers of Welsh speakers together and where the language still functions as a community language. Therefore, we have been happy to support additional Welsh teaching, provision of books, and so on. It is an important historical tie, which we want to keep going. There is also an important historical story to be told. The money will not be taken away; it simply has not been drawn down yet.

[101] As we said, the other revenue funding line contains budgets to support a variety of events. It is a bit of a catch-all, covering everything from Aberfan community projects, public appointments budgets, feasibility of the national digital gallery for the visual arts, and so on. If you want a more detailed breakdown of these payments, I would be happy to provide that. 10.00 a.m.

[102] Rosemary Butler: I have a couple of points that I would like to raise. First, I agree with Owen John about Collectorplan; it is a fantastic scheme, which means that people who could not normally afford to buy artwork can do so. They can also commission crafts, which is very interesting. I am really pleased that that was in. On behalf of the committee, I thank the Principality building society for its foresight.

[103] In your report, you have indicated that the White Paper on heritage protection will be published in early March. Will that be published in time for our committee meeting on 14 March? My other point is on in-year monitoring of the budget. It is difficult to monitor the figures presented in annex A without some supplementary notes. If you cannot answer this now, you can provide us with a note. The total expenditure line is at £137,614 million. That does not equate to the figure of £143,716 million for 2006-07, set out in the final budget presented to the committee in June. Could you look at that difference? In addition, what is the whereabouts of the £29,417 million for the culture fund? That was included in the June budget figures, but is not shown in the current in-year expenditure table. If you cannot answer that off the top of your head now, you could give us a note on it, but I cannot find where the difference lies or where the slip has happened; it could well be in there somewhere, but I cannot find it.

[104] A final point, which no-one has mentioned this morning, is the Youth Hostel Association development in Swansea. It is really important that we try to return the Youth Hostel Association to its former glory—but with hostels that have more than one shower for the whole building—because it is important that people can stay fairly cheaply in areas of outstanding natural beauty.

[105] Alun Pugh: I will provide you with a financial reconciliation note on those two figures. Sometimes, MEG-to-MEG transfers take place in-year, not because of a change in spending priorities, but simply because items are moved between budgets. However, I will supply Members with a note on such transfers.

[106] Rosemary Butler: When will you do that?

[107] Alun Pugh: Before the next meeting.

[108] As far as Collectorplan is concerned, the Principality has been a terrific partner on this. It enables people to acquire works of art that they would not otherwise be able to afford, but it does it in such a way that does not require substantial amounts of public money to be tied up through the arts council budget. It works very well and the Principality has done a first-rate job for us on this. [109] You then mentioned the heritage protection White Paper. I am not sure that we can necessarily guarantee that that will be out before we move into the campaign period prior to the election, but it will be a pretty long process before this ends up in legislation. Future members of this committee, and, indeed future Assembly Members, will have plenty of time to get involved in the nitty-gritty of legislative development. I am pleased to say that the legislative consequences of the heritage protection White Paper, which is the key point, will not be dealt with in Parliament. They will be dealt with here. That is the crucial point. So, the White Paper will be published in the spring and that, in turn, will lead to a Bill going through Parliament, but it will be very much about framework powers—all of the detail of the legislation will be dealt with here. So, even though we might not have an opportunity to pick apart the White Paper, there will be plenty of opportunities for the future Assembly to determine what gets encoded in Welsh law. That is an important development.

[110] You then mentioned the Youth Hostel Association. Many of us have been YHA members in the past. There has been a big focus on improving the quality of YHA facilities. Young people today are perhaps more demanding than we were in terms of the facilities that they expect at YHA venues. My Swansea visit was different, in that the facility there is not entirely a YHA venue. We are seeing a local authority that has a building that is used for its own purposes of education, and providing residential outdoor education for its local population. The authority was using the building heavily and intensively during the week, and obviously during term time, but it was lying idle at weekends and during school holidays. Yet the YHA does not have anywhere near enough capacity in its existing facilities in the Gower area, so what we have there is a partnership between YHA and the City and County of Swansea Council; there is a YHA badge on the door, it is part of the YHA network, but the YHA does not own the facility. However, the benefits of the city council’s capital expenditure on that building are then available to the wider community, and that is one way that the YHA wants to expand—it is not a franchise, as such, but it allows the YHA network, with its marketing expertise and so on, to use existing public expenditure and to make more facilities available.

[111] The other thing that the YHA chief executive talked to me about was the association’s plans for Cardiff, where it is very keen indeed to expand. So, it is not just about the traditional mission of the YHA to provide facilities in rural areas—especially for young people of limited means, if I remember the YHA constitution right.

[112] Lisa Francis: I apologise for being late for this meeting. I just wanted to ask about the funding uplift of £1.4 million in the free swimming initiative, the improvement fund, and the 125 projects that are in existence. You mentioned that there will be local schemes to try to attract more users, and that there will be training for front-of-house staff in leisure centres, with up-skilling programmes, and so on. I am concerned about the number of projects that, I believe, are in receipt of this funding via their local authorities, which are now cutting back on sessions, particularly early-morning sessions. I have been alerted to that problem. Are there any provisos in your budget, as regards that uplift, to ensure that leisure centres or local authorities that receive the money do not cut back on services to users? [113] Alun Pugh: Before you arived we talked about the type of schemes that this additional one- off capital uplift is supporting. They are largely small-scale schemes, around the provision of things like additional lockers, bits of training, and so on. It is not designed to back-fill any local authority slippage, if you like, in terms of commitment. We have national standards in place for the free swimming scheme, and unless a local authority adheres to those standards, it does not get any money, full stop. I rather suspect that, looking back, what might be happening—and it is difficult to know without chapter and verse—is that a local authority that was providing considerably in excess of its minimum requirements, and therefore qualified for the funding, decided for some reason or another to cut back on one or two sessions, possibly some of the early-morning sessions. So, although it is not providing as much as it was, it is still over the minimum standard. However, without knowing chapter and verse on particular authorities, it is difficult to say for sure.

[114] We certainly would not want to see a mass rowing-back on standards in that scheme. It is an important national scheme, but there have been questions around this ever since it started. One local authority—I think that it might have been Bridgend—had complied with the minimum standards, and was therefore getting the funding, but was doing the absolute minimum, whereas neighbouring local authorities were doing more. So, people understandably felt aggrieved that their local authority was providing the absolute minimum. However, we will go back to that and if you have any particular examples from casework, where you think the authority is simply not fulfilling its obligations, I would be very interested indeed to know about it.

[115] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, Minister.

10.09 a.m.

Rhaglen Waith Flynyddol yr UE EU Annual Work Programme

[116] Rosemary Butler: Neil Cox will introduce this paper.

[117] Mr Cox: The Members’ Research and Committee Service has sifted the 2007 work programme for the EU, and we have selected three items that we think might be of interest, but there are two key items that are of particular interest. The first is the communication on culture. A recent study has highlighted a link between the cultural and creative sectors and the Lisbon strategy. The study recognised that there was a turnover of €654 billion in Europe in 2003, so the creative economy is considered to be a huge part of the European economy: it is of high and increasing value. The communication is strongly related to the Lisbon agenda, as I mentioned, so this will be very important in Wales. The second item is the White Paper on sport, which is due out in June. We do not have many details on what will be in it, but it is likely to look at how the EU can help to promote good governance in sport, while recognising the need to respect the autonomy of sports organisations. There is also likely to be recognition of the fact that sport has a great impact on the wider social agenda, so Members may have a lot of views to contribute to that White Paper. [118] Then, beyond the items that are in the forward work programme, there are issues that Members have looked at in previous years that they may wish to continue to consider and monitor. These issues include minority languages, especially the possible use of Welsh in official proceedings within EU institutions. Next year, 2008, has been declared the European Year of Intercultural Dialogue, to promote an increasing dialogue between the diverse cultures of the EU. Members have also looked at the digitisation of cultural heritage and may wish to consider the progress of the EU-wide digitisation project and how it fits in with work undertaken in Wales, particularly that undertaken by the National Library of Wales. There are also the Culture 2007 and Media 2007 funding programmes, which run to 2013, and Members may wish to monitor the success of applications for those funds, and of the applications that are funded.

[119] Rosemary Butler: I will give you my thoughts on this from my work on the Committee of the Regions. If the next committee has the time, it would be nice to cover all of these, but I think that we should look at the White Paper on sport. Minority languages, obviously, is also an area that we will want to look at. On the digitisation of cultural heritage, we have done so much here, particularly in the national library, that I think that we could provide good input on that. We could also keep an eye on the European Year of Intercultural Dialogue. The title is very much Brusselspeak, but I think that, particularly in the case of the newly joined nations, it will be an interesting subject for us to look at.

[120] In addition, this year is the European Year of Equal Opportunities for All. The Assembly should get involved in that and see what is happening, but a question arises about who should take the lead. We need to ensure that either the Committee on Equality of Opportunity or another committee takes the lead on it, because we sadly missed out on the European Year of Education through Sport in 2005. As the education portfolio took it on, I think that we missed out. If the Minister for Culture, Welsh Language and Sport had been allowed to lead on it—because it was education through sport—I think that we may have benefited more and been able to piggyback to a greater extent on the money that was available. Who should deal with these things is the issue, but that year I think that we missed out quite badly on possible funding. Those are my thoughts on the subject. It is up for discussion. Does anyone wish to comment?

[121] Eleanor Burnham: Chair, those were very interesting and useful leads from your European activity. On page 4, I am concerned about the bullet point on Culture 2007. Is the Assembly in a position to bid directly for money under that programme?

[122] Rosemary Butler: If you remember, I led an opinion from the Committee of the Regions to get additional money in that budget. It is really for the European officers, the Welsh European Funding Office and all the cultural organisations across Wales to make bids. We cannot make a bid directly; I believe that we can be involved in supporting bids—the Minister can correct me if I am wrong—but it is a case of getting local authorities, business, arts organisations, and people across Wales, to make these bids. There is a lot of money there. There was an interesting conference in Galeri in Caernarfon, and perhaps, in future, we could get the people who organised that to come and give some guidance as to who across Wales could apply, and how they can get help. [123] Eleanor Burnham: My understanding from the north Wales economic forum, where the lady from the Welsh European Funding Office again did a presentation, was that bids for convergence funding will be structured differently this time around.

[124] Rosemary Butler: This is not convergence funding—it is a different pot.

[125] Eleanor Burnham: Yes, but she was talking generally and saying that the ability to make bids will be different. I just want to ensure that we will not lose out. I do not know whether it is up to us as a committee, or whether it is up to the Minister, to take a lead. We need to show that we have an understanding, and we need to use the pots of European money whenever they become available, rather than some of us feeling that, in the present situation, we might have missed out on European funding. I am trying to be apolitical.

[126] Rosemary Butler: We could have a big debate on whether we missed out or not. If you remember, Nia Lewis came from the Brussels office last year, gave us a comprehensive overview, and told us how additional money of over £20 million had come into Wales from smaller pots. This it not the new Objectives 1, 2 and 3 pot—this is totally separate—and therefore there are different rules governing bids. Therefore, it is a case of trying to get some information to Members, who can then disseminate it in their own constituencies.

[127] Did you want to come in, Val?

[128] Val Lloyd: Yes, Chair, although it is nothing terribly original. First, I would like to thank Mr Cox for his paper. The section relating to our portfolio was interesting, but I also picked up some issues from annex A that are pertinent to other committees, which I would like to follow through, so it was doubly useful. I agree with your list of suggestions, Chair, and I wanted to stress that we should definitely link into the digitisation, in view of the work done by the national library, as you say, and the amount of potential that it has for our communities.

[129] Rosemary Butler: Does anyone else have any comments? If not, it might be helpful then if we just say that we will look at the intercultural dialogue, the White Paper on sport, minority languages, digitisation, and cultural heritage. It would be helpful if someone could produce an A4 brief for Members about the kind of groups who could apply, particularly for the Culture 2007 money. Is everyone happy with that?

[130] Eleanor Burnham: I disagree slightly, Chair. As Mr Cox has already done this good work on all these points, would it not be appropriate to have a further note on all of them, not just the ones that you have just mentioned?

[131] Rosemary Butler: The issue is the amount of work; the committee secretariat does not have the capacity for that amount of work, and, apart from that, the successor committee would then have to find time to discuss it. It would be interesting to follow them all up, but I suggest that we focus on the ones that I mentioned. As individuals, if you want to follow any of the others up, that would be helpful—all of you could look at one area and pursue it, and raise the issue at committee or with the Minister, as and when appropriate. I agree that it would be nice to do all of them, but it is physically impossible. [132] Thank you for that paper, Neil—it is helpful.

10.20 a.m.

Adroddiad Blynyddol Drafft y Pwyllgor: 2006-07 Draft Committee Annual Report: 2006-07

[133] Rosemary Butler: This is a précis of the work that we have taken on to date. Are there any comments? What is the final date for comments?

[134] Ms Annand: It is coming back to committee in March—this is only the draft report; there is plenty of time.

[135] Rosemary Butler: Well, if it is coming back in March we will not have much time to amend it at that point, because we will be running down in March. Therefore, if you have any comments, please feed them in now; that will give the committee the opportunity to ratify it at the next meeting. If anyone has any observations, please send them in and, within around a fortnight, we can circulate those observations among Members.

[136] Eleanor Burnham: I have one small point—I assume that now that we have finished our review, the reference on page 3 to football in Wales will be updated.

[137] Rosemary Butler: Yes.

[138] Owen John Thomas: A oes dyddiad Owen John Thomas: Has a date been set for wedi ei osod ar gyfer trafod hwn neu adrodd yn discussing this or reporting back on this to the ôl ar hwn yn y Cynulliad? Assembly?

[139] Rosemary Butler: Sorry, there seems to be a problem with my translation feed. Could you repeat that?

[140] Owen John Thomas: Will this report be presented to the Assembly?

[141] Rosemary Butler: Yes.

[142] Owen John Thomas: Is there a specific date for that? There is a reference to April, but I cannot see a specific date; is there one?

[143] Julia Annand: All committee reports will be laid around the same time, so they will be laid before the second term finishes, some time in March.

[144] Owen John Thomas: Thank you for that.

[145] Rosemary Butler: Are there any other questions on that? Please take the opportunity to send in your comments because if you decide to make amendments, it will be quite tight in March to get those agreed.

[146] We will break now and return at 10.50 a.m.; thank you. Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10.22 a.m. a 10.54 a.m. The meeting adjourned between 10.22 a.m. a 10.54 a.m.

Adroddiad Drafft y Pwyllgor Draft Committee Report

[147] Ms Annand: This is very much an outline at the moment. All the committees are doing what we are calling legacy reports. In part, these are summaries of the main achievements of each committee during the second term, but they are also to hand on committees’ legacies, in other words, the issues that a committee would like a successor committee or committees to take up at some time. These include policy issues and legislation. I have deliberately left it pretty vague, apart from the beginning, which is a fairly standard background detailing what we have done, when we have met and so on. I have drawn up some headings that our main achievements might come under and headings for the legacy, namely ‘Strategic Issues’, ‘Cross-cutting Issues’, ‘Other Items for Consideration’ and ‘Legislation’. Some of these are fairly obvious, and some are issues that have come up in committee before. For example, on cross-cutting issues, this committee has said many a time that it is concerned about where the portfolio for cultural tourism lies and there is a split in the responsibility for issues such as broadcasting and film. I have also included,

[148] ‘Total share of budget for arts and culture’.

[149] You may or may not want these things to be recorded in this report, because there may be other things that you wish to record. This is only a first look at it. The final report will come back to committee with your comments on 14 March, so you have a fair amount of time between now and then to think about it. I am in your hands as to the issues that you wish to include in the final draft of the report.

[150] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, Julia; that is very helpful. We must remember that all the Assembly sponsored public bodies are coming before us on 1 March, so we may want to include something from that committee meeting. Although Julia says that we have until 14 March to consider this, we will not have much time after that to amend the report, so the final report should come to the meeting on 14 March. Are there any comments? I think that this is very comprehensive. We certainly need to make the point about broadcasting and film and cultural tourism, because it seems that this committee should have more of an input into that. We have always talked about total share of budget for the arts and culture, and I think that that should carry on. Are there any other points?

[151] Laura Anne Jones: School sport is a cross-cutting issue.

[152] Rosemary Butler: The future of the Sports Council for Wales is there, under ‘Sport’, along with staffing and the future handling of sports policy. I suppose that it would come under the heading of sports policy. We cannot have a novel’s worth of issues, I am afraid; we only have a couple of pages.

[153] Laura Anne Jones: Portfolio responsibilities come under ‘Cross-cutting Issues’ on page 3. I though that that might be a place for it. [154] Rosemary Butler: Okay. We will include school sport under ‘Cross-cutting Issues’. I think that we also need to include disabilities.

[155] Owen John Thomas: Mae elfennau [156] Owen John Thomas: Important pwysig o’r iaith Gymraeg yn dod o dan addysg, elements of the Welsh language come under ac mae wedi bod yn anodd cael gwybodaeth am education, and it has been difficult to get ddatblygiadau yn y polisi ‘Iaith Pawb’, gan fod information about developments in the ‘Iaith addysg Gymraeg yn gyfrifoldeb i’r Gweinidog Pawb’ policy, because Welsh-medium dros Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a Sgiliau. education is the responsibility of the Minister Felly, dylem hefyd gynnwys addysg cyfrwng for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills. Cymraeg o dan bennawd ‘Cross-cutting Issues. Therefore, we should include Welsh-medium Mae ‘Iaith Pawb’ ym meddiant y pwyllgor education under the heading of ‘Cross-cutting hwn, ac nid y Pwyllgor Adran Addysg, Dysgu Issues’. ‘Iaith Pawb’ is in the ownership of this Gydol Oes a Sgiliau. Pan oeddem yn trafod committee, and not that of the Education, ‘Iaith Pawb’, yr oeddem yn aml yn trafod Lifelong Learning and Skills Committee. When pethau a oedd o fewn cylch gwaith y we discussed ‘Iaith Pawb’, we often discussed Gweinidog dros Addysg, Dysgu Gydol Oes a issues that were within the skills remit of the Sgiliau, felly, mae’r mater yn cross-cutting Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning and issue. Skills and, therefore, it is a cross-cutting issue.

[157] Rosemary Butler: I suggest that it should go under the heading of ‘Welsh language’, as part of the

[158] ‘Future handling of Welsh language policy’.

[159] It could be a cross-cutting issue, but I think that there should be more responsibility for it in this committee, or with the Minister who is responsible for the language. We should highlight this issue, whether it comes under the heading of ‘Welsh language’ or ‘Cross-cutting Issues’.

[160] Owen John Thomas: Yr oedd adegau Owen John Thomas: There were times when I pan nad oeddwn yn siwr pwy oedd yn gyfrifol was uncertain as to who was responsible for am rai agweddau ar addysg cyfrwng Cymraeg, some aspects of Wels-medium education, such megis addysg feithrin. as nursery education.

[161] Rosemary Butler: I am sorry, Owen John, the translation equipment is not working at the moment. It is working now.

[162] Owen John Thomas: Fel yr oeddwn yn Owen John Thomas: As I was saying, there dweud, yr oedd adegau pan nad oedd yn bosibl were times when it was not possible to get cael gwybodaeth am agweddau ar ‘Iaith Pawb’ information on aspects of ‘Iaith Pawb’, because gan nad oedd y Gweinidog dros Addysg a the Minister for Education, Lifelong Learning Dysgu Gydol Oes na’r Gweinidog dros and Skills and the Minister for Culture, Welsh Ddiwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chwaraeon yn Language and Sport were not taking cymryd cyfrifoldeb am agweddau penodol. responsibility for certain aspects.

11.00 a.m. [163] Cofiaf ofyn cwestiynau parthed addysg I recall asking questions about Welsh-medium cyfrwng Cymraeg, addysg feithrin ac ati, ac, am education, nursery education and so on and, for sbel, ni allwn gael atebion llawn oherwydd y a time, I could not get comprehensive answers sefyllfa honno, ac yr wyf yn dal heb gael because of that situation, and I am still waiting atebion llawn mewn rhai meysydd. Mae’n for answers in some areas. It is important that bwysig inni ei wneud yn hollol amlwg yn yr we make it absolutely plain in this report that adroddiad hwn mai cyfrifoldeb y pwyllgor hwn ‘Iaith Pawb’ was the responsibility of this oedd ‘Iaith Pawb’. O’r pwyllgor hwn y daeth y committee. It is from this committee that the syniad o gynnal arolwg ‘Iaith Pawb’, felly idea of conducting a review of ‘Iaith Pawb’ mae’n bwysig ein bod yn cofnodi hynny. came, so it is important that we record that.

[164] Rosemary Butler: I accept that. I suggest that we should put the handling of Welsh-medium education where we have ‘Welsh language’, and,

[165] ‘Future handling of Welsh language policy; future of Welsh Language Board; legislation’,

[166] Or you could put it under ‘Cross-cutting Issues’, whichever you prefer. I do not mind.

[167] Ms Annand: We could refer to it in both.

[168] Rosemary Butler: We could, because I do not want it just to be under ‘Cross-cutting Issues’. The Minister is responsible for ‘Iaith Pawb’ and the language should have more input into it.

[169] Owen John Thomas: Felly, bydd yn y Owen John Thomas: So it will be in both ddau le? places?

[170] Rosemary Butler: Yes.

[171] Owen John Thomas: Diolch. Owen John Thomas: Thank you.

[172] Lisa Francis: I am grateful to Owen John for initiating the debate. I brought this matter up at the last meeting. When I came to this committee initially, I was under the impression that film came within the committee’s remit. It seems to have gradually been taken over by the Enterprise, Innovation and Networks Committee. We need to decide where its origins and roots should lie. Obviously, the EIN Committee has an important input into film and broadcasting, but it should not have a monopoly on it. We need to try to make that clear in this report.

[173] Rosemary Butler: I think that we all agree with that, because the intellectual property rights aspect seemed to take over the cultural and artistic point of view. Unless you have people who are culturally literate, you will not have good films in the first place. I agree with you. So, broadcasting and film is in there.

[174] Eleanor Burnham: On the same point, we should have more of an input into cultural tourism, generally.

[175] Rosemary Butler: Well— [176] Eleanor Burnham: You are talking about broadcasting and film, and I am just adding cultural tourism.

[177] Rosemary Butler: That is down there. So, we are putting down ‘Welsh-medium education’, ‘school sports’, and ‘disabilities’.

[178] Ms Annand: Do we mean ‘disabilities’ or ‘equality’? We can put ‘equality of opportunity’ in.

[179] Rosemary Butler: Okay: ‘equality issues’.

[180] Val Lloyd: I will make a general point, if I may. I do not disagree with any of the issues that have been raised; I seek clarification, possibly, about the routing. Where will this go? I know that this will go to the successor committees, but successor committees under our new Government of Wales Act 2006 are unlikely to take the format of current committees, because of the changing nature of the Assembly’s role. I think that there may not be that much cause for alarm with regard to the things that I have just said that I agree with because the make-up of committees will, inevitably, be different.

[181] Rosemary Butler: I accept that, but it is important for, and incumbent on, us as a committee to point out what we think are the present system’s shortcomings so that, hopefully, they will be picked up by whichever committee takes over from this one. As individuals, if we are still here, we can ensure that they are picked up. We can highlight the issues and find out where they are being put. Does anyone else want to comment? I see that they do not.

11.04 a.m.

Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru The Welsh Books Council

[182] Rosemary Butler: I welcome Gwerfyl Pierce Jones and her team to the table for this item. I wish you a happy new year on behalf of the committee—we have not seen you this year. If you would like to introduce your team and then introduce your report, we will then have questions from committee members.

[183] Ms Pierce Jones: Diolch yn fawr iawn Ms Pierce Jones: Thank you very much for the am y gwahoddiad i annerch y pwyllgor. Yn invitation to address the committee. anffodus, nid oedd yr Athro M. Wynn Thomas, Unfortunately, Professor M. Wynn Thomas, the cadeirydd y cyngor llyfrau, yn rhydd i fod yma chair of the books council, was not able to y bore yma. Mae’n ymddiheuro’n fawr am attend this morning. He sends his sincere hynny. Fodd bynnag, mae dau o’m apologies. However, two of my colleagues are cydweithwyr yma i’m cynorthwyo ac i here to assist me and to contribute to the debate gyfrannu at y drafodaeth yn nes ymlaen, sef later on, namely Elwyn Jones, who is Elwyn Jones, sydd yn dosbarthu’r papur o distributing the paper around the table, and gwmpas y bwrdd, a Kirsti Bohata. Kirsti Bohata. [184] Yn y cwta hanner awr sydd gennym, yr In the brief half an hour that we have, I will wyf am fy nghyfyngu fy hun i ddwy agwedd ar restrict myself to two aspects of the work of the waith Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru, sef datblygiadau Welsh Books Council, namely developments in yn y byd cyhoeddi Cymraeg a hefyd Welsh-language publishing and also recent ddatblygiadau diweddar ym maes ysgrifennu developments in Welsh writing in English, an Saesneg yng Nghymru, maes a astudiwyd yn area that you investigated in detail at the drylwyr gennych chi ar ddechrau’r Cynulliad beginning of this Assembly. I will begin in presennol. Dechreuaf yn y Gymraeg, gan droi Welsh, and then turn to English to discuss i’r Saesneg i drafod ysgrifennu Saesneg yng Welsh writing in English. Nghymru.

[185] Y peth cyntaf yr hoffwn ei ddweud yw The first thing that I would like to say is that fod gwerthiant llyfrau yn y ddwy iaith yn book sales in both languages are heartening. galonogol iawn. Gan gymryd trosiant canolfan Looking at the turnover of the distribution ddosbarthu y cyngor llyfrau fel dangosydd, mae centre of the books council as an indicator, cynnydd o fwy na 12 y cant yn ffigurau 10 mis there has been an increase of over 12 per cent in cyntaf y flwyddyn ariannol bresennol. Yr oedd the figures of the first 10 months of the current gwerthiant dros gyfnod y Nadolig wedi financial year. The sales over the Christmas cyrraedd lefel record, a hynny am y drydedd period reached record levels, and that was for flwyddyn yn olynol. Yn sicr, mae bwrlwm yn y the third year in succession. Certainly, there is a byd cyhoeddi cyfrwng Cymraeg y dyddiau hyn, buzz in the world of Welsh-language publishing ac ymdeimlad o lwyddiant, ac mae’n bwynt a at present, and there is a feeling of success, wnaed yn gyson yn y wasg yn ddiweddar. which is a point made consistently in the press recently.

[186] Y cwestiwn heddiw yw beth sydd yn The question that we should ask this morning is gyfrifol am hynny. Mae nifer o ffactorau, wrth what is responsible for that. There are a number gwrs, ond y ffactor bwysicaf yn ddiau yw’r of factors, of course, but the most important chwistrelliad o arian ychwanegol a roddwyd i factor without doubt is the injection of gyhoeddi cyfrwng Cymraeg gan Lywodraeth y additional funding that was given to Welsh- Cynulliad rhwng 2002 a 2005, sydd yn language publishing by the Assembly gynnydd o £0.5 miliwn dros dair blynedd. Yr Government between 2002 and 2005, which is oedd y cynnydd hwnnw’n ganlyniad i arolwg o an increase of £0.5 million over three years. gyhoeddi yn y Gymraeg gan un o grwpiau That increase was a result of a survey of Welsh- gorchwyl a gorffen Llywodraeth y Cynulliad, language publishing by one of the Assembly ac a arweiniodd at nifer o newidiadau yn y Government’s task and finish groups, which led drefn o ddosbarthu grantiau, nid lleiaf o hynny to a number of changes in the system of grant bod y cyngor llyfrau yn rhoi mwy o gyfrifoldeb distribution, not least of which was that the i brif gyhoeddwyr dros eu rhaglenni cyhoeddi. books council should give the main publishers Yr oedd hynny’n cynnwys rhoi grant rhaglen greater responsibility for their publishing neu grant bloc i’r prif gyhoeddwyr i gyhoeddi programmes. That included a programme or hyn a hyn o deitlau y flwyddyn. Ar ben hynny, block grant for the main publishers to publish a yr oedd ganddynt, am y tro cyntaf, gyllideb ar specific number of titles each year. In addition gyfer comisiynu awduron. Mae hynny wedi to that, they had, for the first time, a budget for trawsnewid eu rhaglenni cyhoeddi. Yn hytrach commissioning authors. That has transformed na derbyn yr hyn oedd yn dod i law yn their publishing programmes. Rather than ddigymell, yr oedd ganddynt, am y tro cyntaf, accepting what was submitted, they had, for the arian i gomisiynu awduron i ysgrifennu llyfrau first time, funding to commission authors to er mwyn diwallu anghenion y farchnad. write books to meet the needs of the market. I Hoffwn fanteisio ar y cyfle hwn i longyfarch would like to take this opportunity to prif gyhoeddwyr Cymru am y ffordd egniol yr congratulate the main publishers of Wales on aethant ati i gomisiynu ac i wneud defnydd call the energetic way that they set about a chyfrifol o arian cyhoeddus er mwyn darparu commissioning and making sensible and llyfrau gwell a mwy o amrywiaeth ar gyfer responsible use of public funding in order to darllenwyr a phrynwyr. deliver better books and a greater variety for readers and buyers.

[187] Y ddau faes a fanteisiodd fwyaf ar yr The two areas that benefited most from this arian ychwanegol hwn i awduron yw nofelau a additional funding for authors were novels and bywgraffiadau a chofiannau. Y mae’r biographies and autobiographies. The results canlyniadau yn ddadlennol, oherwydd dyblodd are revealing, because the sales of Welsh- gwerthiant nofelau Cymraeg rhwng 2002 a language novels doubled between 2002 and 2005. Yr oedd gwerthiant bywgraffiadau hyd 2005. The sales of biographies were even yn oed yn well, gyda chynnydd o bedair gwaith better, with a four fold increase over the same yn fwy yn yr un cyfnod. Os ydych yn edrych ar period. If you were to look at the provision for arlwy’r Nadolig, yr oedd dewis ardderchog o Christmas, there was an excellent choice of nofelau—rhai traddodiadol, rhai arbrofol, rhai novels—some traditional, some experimental, beiddgar, a nifer ohonynt yn gynnyrch awduron some audacious, and a number of them were ifanc, sydd yn darparu ar gyfer cynulleidfa the work of young authors, providing for new newydd. Credaf fod bywyd newydd yn y nofel audiences. I believe that there is new life in the Gymraeg, ac mae mwy o drafod ar ffuglen nag Welsh-language novel, and there is more a fu er blynyddoedd lawer. Un arwydd o hynny discussion of fiction than there has been for yw’r ffaith bod grwpiau trafod ar gynnydd ar many years. An indication of that is that hyd a lled Cymru. reading groups are increasing in number across Wales.

[188] Mae cnwd o fywgraffiadau a chofiannau There is also a crop of biographies and ar y farchnad hefyd, ac, unwaith eto, os ydych autobiographies on the market, and, once again, yn edrych ar gynnyrch y Nadolig yn unig fe if you just look at the Christmas provision, you welech yr ystod eang, o Robin McBryde i will see a wide range, from Robin McBryde to Gwyn Thomas, o Huw Ceredig i Lewis Gwyn Thomas, from Huw Ceredig to Lewis Valentine, ac o Maureen Rhys i Maldwyn Valentine, and from Maureen Rhys to Maldwyn Lewis. Tipyn o amrywiaeth, yr wyf yn siwr y Lewis. I am sure that you would agree that that byddech yn cytuno. is quite a variety.

11.10 a.m. [189] Fodd bynnag, y brif sialens nesaf fydd However, the main next challenge will be to darparu gwell arlwy o lyfrau ffeithiol ar gyfer provide a better selection of factual books for plant ac oedolion yn Gymraeg, sydd yn gofyn children and adults in Welsh, which requires am fwy o adnoddau dynol ac ariannol. Mae’r more resources, both human and financial. llyfrau hynny’n dibynnu’n helaethach ar Those books are more dependent on ddarlunio a dylunio, ac yn aml mae ganddynt illustrations and design, and often have higher gostau cynhyrchu uwch. Nid yw’r ddarpariaeth production costs. The existing provision in that bresennol ar yr ochr honno yn ddigonol o bell regard is far from adequate. ffordd.

[190] Yn yr un modd, mae’n rhaid buddsoddi Similarly, it is vital that more is invested in the mwy yn isadeiledd y prif dai cyhoeddi. infrastructure of the main publishing houses. Busnesau bychain, bregus ydynt bron yn They are, almost without exception, small, ddieithriad. Byddai buddsoddiad cymedrol vulnerable businesses. A moderate additional ychwanegol yn gwneud byd o wahaniaeth er investment would make a world of difference to mwyn ychwanegu at eu staff a sicrhau bod them: they could add to their staff and ensure ganddynt yr ystod o sgiliau arbenigol sydd ei that they have the range of specialist skills that hangen i greu llyfrau o’r safon uchaf a medru they need to produce books of the highest eu marchnata yn effeithiol. standards and to be able to market them effectively.

[191] I will now turn to Welsh writing in English. While the services of the books council have always been available for books in both languages, it was not until 2003 that we began awarding grants for English-language books and periodicals. Until that time, English-language publishing was the responsibility of the Arts Council of Wales, and its support, as you will appreciate, was confined to books of literary or artistic merit. This mirrored the funding strategy that the arts councils of England and Scotland pursued, but did not account for the fact that, for a host of reasons, mainly historical, Wales lacked a thriving commercial publishing sector underpinning the literary output. English-language publishing in Wales has traditionally been weak and underdeveloped—it grew around subsidies—and was a field that was crying out for major intervention.

[192] Some of you will remember the well-known gaffe attributed to a politician who supposedly said that education had been on the edge of a precipice and who went on to say that, under the new administration, it had taken a great leap forward. I will not take that analogy too far, but suffice it to say that several positive steps have been taken in the field of Welsh writing in English over the past three years. However, in many ways, these successes have pushed publishers a little closer to the edge, and I will come back to that, if I may. [193] It was a happy coincidence for the books council that, a few months into our new role, this committee decided to undertake a comprehensive review of Welsh writing in English. Many have commented on the quality of the finished report; its recommendations were bold and far-reaching, and they were certainly constructive and practical. It is a credit to this committee that that report continues to be regarded as a blueprint for a thriving publishing industry in Wales. As you are aware, the Minister quickly responded to that report and provided additional funding of £250,000 to begin implementing the main recommendations of the report. That was much appreciated, and the figure has since become part of our baseline. The total spend on Welsh writing in English currently stands at just over £750,000 a year.

[194] Given the historical background that I have just outlined, further investment will clearly be required over the coming years in order to realise the vision outlined in the report on Welsh writing in English. However, once again, I would like to give you an indication of what has been achieved by the industry with the help and support of the books council since the policy review. I must start with the Library of Wales, the flagship series and project, which is a great credit to all involved, especially the publishers Parthian, and the dynamic editor, Professor Dai Smith. The first five titles were published in January 2006, and a further four followed last November. To date, some 16,000 copies have been sold, which I admit is beyond the most optimistic forecasts. There have been launches in London and New York as well as in Wales. Press and media coverage has been pretty extensive and the books are widely available in bookshops well beyond Wales. Teaching resources have recently been produced in order to encourage the teaching of these Welsh classics in the classroom. We feel that that is important. The project has undoubtedly been a resounding success. When the Minister is on record as saying that this is his best decision to date, we must surely agree with him. It has certainly been a great privilege for the books council to administer this project and to see it into its second phase.

[195] However, we cannot live on the past; new writing is equally as important and this is where the new money is vital to support author advances and marketing initiatives so that we can help publishers to produce a range of books that are all of a high quality and some of which should have wide market appeal. Again, the first signs are encouraging. A number of literary titles are beginning to be considered for major awards: not only the inaugural Dylan Thomas Prize, of which you are all aware, I am sure, but also the Costa Book Awards—the Whitbread Book Awards as they used to be called. One of Seren’s titles, Letters to Patience by John Haynes, recently won in the poetry category of the Costa Book Awards. Another book by Seren, The Blood Choir by Tim Liardet, was shortlisted for the T.S. Eliot Prize. The important point is that this is happening with increasing regularity, which is testament to the quality of the books being published by Welsh presses these days. It also illustrates the importance of additional funding for marketing, since all of these prizes have attendant publicity costs. [196] There is also a great deal of interest in new titles being commissioned with the aim of producing books which have a wide appeal. Some of the books for the popular market that have been commissioned are displayed on the screen and include Golf Wales, a book which will be published to coincide with the coming of the Ryder Cup to Wales, several thrillers by Welsh authors, including Lindsay Ashford, Katherine John—otherwise known as Catrin Collier—and a book entitled Ten Pound Pom by the established author Niall Griffiths, based on his own family’s emigration to Australia via a £10 one-way passage in the 1950s. It is worth noting here that publishers are beginning to attract big-name authors who are prepared to publish with them alongside their contracts with major London publishing houses.

[197] Sales and marketing are key priorities. Modest marketing grants are supporting popular titles and promoting greater trade and public awareness of them. This is an area that really needs more investment. Our marketing grant is heavily oversubscribed. Work is also being done by publicists who are contracted to provide services for publishers in Wales. This is a new development and has resulted in major coverage in newspapers such as the Daily Mail, The Mail on Sunday, The Times, The Independent, and other UK-wide papers as well as papers from Wales. Books from Wales have twice appeared on Woman’s Hour on Radio 4 and on Start the Week. All of this was unheard of when you took evidence during the policy review. However, the present budget allows them to work only on a small number of titles and then only at certain times of the year. However, we can show that major UK coverage of the kind now being achieved yields direct results. For example, the Daily Mail’s intention to cover a book entitled Bit on the Side, which is coming out at the end of the month, has resulted in orders to support a UK-wide end-of-tier promotion throughout Borders stores in the UK. It had not previously shown any interest in that title, so that is a direct result of that coverage.

[198] The books council is currently working through a major report on sales and marketing by consultants Kewley and Richardson. This has implications for us as an organisation, but also for the trade in general. It advocates that all parties in the supply chain should adopt UK-wide publishing and distribution disciplines in order to maximise sales. This is an important report, and it comes at an opportune time. I should also point out that our current remit letter puts a great priority on this, and rightly so.

11.20 a.m.

[199] The retail sector remains a challenge, and that will not come as a surprise to you. You rightly emphasised in your report the importance of chains and supermarkets alongside the independents, and the Chair’s personal efforts to initiate discussion with the head office of WHSmith was a major coup at the time, but has also resulted in further developments, which is encouraging. Our regular changes in personnel often hinder progress, but things are beginning to happen. Borders, for example, has developed an enlightened policy towards books from Wales, and we have been working successfully with its senior management to ensure that it stocks a strong selection of books from Wales in both languages. The Llantrisant branch opened last summer—I do not know if you are aware of that—and there is an excellent selection there, and the new Cardiff superstore is scheduled for this June. [200] There are also a host of public sector outlets that need to be targeted, and I would like to mention in particular National Museum Wales, with which we have developed a successful relationship over the last year, leading to increased sales across all its retail outlets—there are currently six of them. It is easy to point the finger at the chains, but in fact the public sector often uses similar arguments regarding margins and profit, and fails to appreciate the cultural obligations, though this is certainly not true of the museum.

[201] We have an excellent relationship with the library sector in Wales, and one recent development is the core list of Welsh writing in English, which we have developed with the help of that sector and of CyMAL. I should also mention the development of a specific module of gwales. com that is aimed at libraries, and again, the support of CyMAL was crucial in that development. We are investigating the possibility of co-operating with the National Library of Wales in setting up a digital repository that would allow publishers to make use of digital printing technologies and other digital developments in the book trade. I have mentioned gwales.com—you will be aware of this online information and ordering service for booksellers, libraries and individual customers who want to source books from Wales. It is encouraging to note that sales have doubled each year over the last three years, and the site is developing rapidly, attracting customers from all over the world. It is a key marketing tool, and it has huge potential for further development. I hope that you will agree that these are significant developments that show the potential for impressive growth.

[202] However, in the context of the report on Welsh writing in English, several areas have still not been addressed. The joint marketing strategy is one example. As you may recall, this was developed by the industry and co-ordinated by the books council, and was highly commended in your report. While some progress has been made on a number of recommendations, there remains a lot to be done, and of course that is dependent on additional funding. The main area of concern, however, is infrastructure, again flagged up as an imperative action point in your report. As in the case of the Welsh-language sector, publishers of English books in Wales are fragile and small, and even the modest successes that we are beginning to witness place an extra burden on staff who are already fully stretched trying to cope with the everyday demands of running businesses on minimum resources. Indeed, it is a well-established truism in the publishing trade that success can actually push a publisher over the precipice, and this is especially pertinent for the small publishers that we have in Wales.

[203] I hope that I have shown that there is huge potential to develop publishing in Wales in both languages. This is one area where the Assembly has already made a real and striking difference, but further investment over the coming years will be crucial. The key is sustainability, and a relatively modest increase in funding would yield much-needed stability and engender further growth and success. Diolch yn fawr.

[204] Rosemary Butler: Thank you, Gwerfyl; that is an interesting report. The fact that there has been an increase of 12 per cent in Welsh-language books and 102 per cent in English-language sales is phenomenal. Although there was additional funding, which was essential, I think that it was the way in which it was spent and sensibly applied that helped to make the difference. It is interesting how WHSmith is still selling Welsh writing in English, but not in such prominent positions. It will be interesting to see how Borders is able to move this forward—the size of the premises helps with that, I suppose. [205] The joint marketing is interesting. Was that just through lack of funding, or was it lack of will? I was not sure. The support for smaller publishers, obviously, needs to be reconsidered. You say that £750,000 is already in the budget. If the Minister were to have a rush of blood to the head and increased that figure to £1 million or £1.25 million, would there be the same exponential leap as we have had already or the same leap again?

[206] Ms Pierce Jones: There has been no additional funding for the joint marketing strategy, but we have found small pockets from our normal budgets to begin work on a number of items. It is quite an ambitious document, and to do it properly calls for additional funding.

[207] On the smaller publishers, I am sure that it is a matter of infrastructure—I will turn to Kirsti on that point in a minute as she is working closely on the English side in particular.

[208] The £1 million that you referred to is quite funny, actually, because, when your report was initially costed, the rough ball-park figure was about £1 million to be able to take that forward on the scale that you wanted. That would be the figure. I think that the argument was always that English-language publishing needs that kind of funding over a few years but that, in the end, as opposed to the Welsh-language situation, more will mean less. It is a case of getting publishers to publish the commercially successful books alongside, and they will eventually, of course, help support the literary material. However, we have a long way to go before we reach that stage. What is exciting is that many of the publishers have that ambition, and they are working towards that goal, but they are very small and fragile, as I indicated. I am sure that Kirsti can elaborate on that.

[209] Ms Bohata: The answer to whether an increase in funding would result in increased or further success is, absolutely, ‘yes’. You are not looking at a situation where you need to pour in a large amount of money to be swallowed up just to stay still; the successes that we have seen already with a modest increase in funding show the potential that is there, and we need to capitalise on that and move to the next level. As Gwerfyl was saying, there is a great deal of ambition and will among the publishers, and what they are really struggling with at the moment is trying to do a great deal more within extremely limited resources, which have not actually grown that much since before the additional funding, because there is a very small amount of money available for infrastructure within the £250,000.

[210] In the longer term, that additional funding will bring in extra revenue from outside, through sales revenue, and we are already seeing the effects of that with a publisher such as Graffeg, which has launched Food Wales. It is essentially launching a brand; it is doing Golf Wales, About Wales and Village Wales. Food Wales is already showing a profit, which is going back in to building that brand up further. So, it can happen in quite a short space of time. However, as Gwerfyl said, successes are, in the short term, placing a big strain on publishers.

11.30 a.m. [211] You mentioned smaller publishers—all publishers in Wales are small. Our largest publishers are still regarded as very small in UK terms, so small Welsh publishers are off the scale. Many of them work with only part-time staff, which poses many difficulties when you have to move quickly in terms of publicity, and in a market that moves quickly. Therefore, helping them to invest in staff and training will make a huge difference to the scene.

[212] Denise Idris Jones: Diolch, Gwerfyl, am Denise Idris Jones: Thank you, Gwerfyl, for bopeth yr ydych wedi ei ddweud. Mae’n braf everything that you have said. It is good to hear clywed bod llyfrau’n cael eu darllen yn yr iaith that books are being read in the Welsh Gymraeg, yn ogystal ag yn Saesneg. language, as well as in English.

[213] I have some knowledge of publishing in Wales—not any more, sadly—because John published for a long time, and I know how difficult that is. On new Welsh-language publications, how many copies, roughly, would a new publication expect to sell in the first year of publication? Would that be 500, 1,000, or 5,000? Maybe you could give me a rough idea on that. This is at the heart of Welsh publishing, probably, especially Welsh-language publishing, and even though we produce a good number of Welsh-language publications a year, these sales figures, as you have said, are extremely low. Maybe you could comment on that. In your distribution centre in Llanbadarn—where I have visited you often—I believe that your turnover is around £2 million. However, what are the profits for Welsh-medium publications?

[214] Ms Pierce Jones: There is a huge range of sales figures for Welsh-language books—it can be anything from 300 to 400, to 4,000 to 5,000; that is the kind of range. However, to take a rule of thumb, 1,000 copies would be the equivalent of 100,000 in English—that is a crude comparison. Therefore, anything that sells between 1,000 and 3,000 is good in Welsh-language terms. It is exciting to see the sales of some of the novels and biographies to which I referred earlier. The average number of sales for novels is now 1,000, whereas it used to be 300 or 400, because you had the popular ones and the literary ones; they are averaging now at over 1,000. So, that is a big leap. It is quite common for biographies to sell 2,000 or 3,000 copies, so they are selling well.

[215] At present, the sales through the distribution centre, in gross terms—namely, the retail price of the book—are about £4.5 million a year. The 12 per cent to which I referred is growing, so the trend is upwards. Again, that is encouraging. So, the trend is up, and we are now able to point to specific examples of where money going in leads to good results.

[216] Mr Jones: The commissioning of authors also helps; publishers go out to look for their own authors, rather than waiting for manuscripts to get to them. So, again, the commissioning funds make a difference to actual sales, which is important.

[217] Denise Idris Jones: However, we must accept that, in Wales, many of our publishers, such as Gwasg Carreg Gwalch in Llanrwst, are also printers, so their overall costs are not as high. That helps them, does is not? [218] Ms Pierce Jones: Yes. However, as we said earlier, the big change is that, in the Welsh language in particular, publishers would publish what was given to them on a plate. They were publishing the books that people wanted to write, and not necessarily—sometimes, but not necessarily—the books that people wanted to read. Therefore, the fact that most of these publishers are now actively commissioning—and manuscripts have to be very good to be accepted—and that they are competing for the ones that they are commissioning themselves has made the big difference.

[219] Lisa Francis: What never ceases to amaze me, as a member of this committee—as we discovered when we discussed the arts review—is that you do not need to spend much money to get a very good return and result. This is a huge success story dating back to the report on Welsh writing in English. I know how fragile the sector is, particularly in my region of Mid and West Wales, where there are many publishing houses. In a way, it is the smallness of the industry that will enable it to further develop eventually and blossom even more. I would like to see every WHSmith in the UK have a Welsh corner. There is a potential for that and there is a huge potential for what has happened so far to be further developed to raise the profile of our nation, and link this in with cultural tourism—the Stephens review talks about cutting across portfolios. I think that the economic potential is huge, but it is clear that there has to be more funding, and that that should be used in a sustainable way over the next seven to 10 years. That is what the report initially suggested when it came out. There must not be any let-up in that funding, lest we lose the snowball effect.

[220] The joint marketing strategy was still in the process of being costed when we last discussed it. I am not sure how it has moved on since then—perhaps the Minister will know more about that. However, Gwerfyl talked about a sales and marketing report by a firm of consultants whom you were closely involved with, and that it was important to have a UK-wide strategy. How does that fit in with the joint marketing strategy? I remember reading about it when we did the report on Welsh writing in English, but that is a long time ago, so how do you see that working? I know that marketing is just a part of this puzzle—it is an important part, but I appreciate what you are saying about the need for a modest amount of money in the budget each year for this important project.

[221] Ms Bohata: I will talk about marketing in the context of Welsh writing in English and the additional funding first and then return to the joint marketing strategy and your question on costing. It is crucial to appeal to UK-wide audiences for Welsh writing in English because we know that the sales in Wales will not be enough to make these books shine. [222] Behind every success that Gwerfyl has mentioned there has been a marketing cost, if you like. If a book wins the Costa Book Awards a £2,500 contribution to marketing is demanded of the publisher. All of these prizes can demand this kind of fee because they know that ultimately it will help to sell the books. So, we have been able to contribute to the unexpected success in the Costa Book Awards through a contingency fund that we developed to ensure that we could respond quickly. So, it is crucial for there to be investment in marketing in a variety of ways, including investment in the publicist, which was one of the main recommendations of the joint marketing strategy, and Gwerfyl has talked about getting books into the UK press and media through the work of the publicist. The joint marketing strategy, for example, costed a publicist, working on English-language writing, at £40,000 a year. We have been able to find slightly more than half of that from the additional funding to start that process. So, you can see that we are making steps towards fulfilling the recommendations of the joint marketing strategy, but we simply cannot fund it without additional support. Do you want to say more about the joint marketing strategy, Gwerfyl?

11.40 a.m.

[223] Ms Pierce Jones: The Kewley and Richardson report on sales and marketing is about operational matters. It is about what the Welsh Books Council should be doing to improve its service, what all the publishers should be doing, and looks at best practice across the sector. The publishers are working in the way that major London publishers would work because, after all, they are competing with them to get their books into high-street chains, supermarkets and so on. Therefore, they have to adopt the same sort of practices, such as critical paths, whereby information and covers are available six months before publication and so on, in order to get books into stores in large numbers. That is a very important piece of work.

[224] We have not been calling them critical paths; what it really means is publishing to a schedule. It is quite simple, but these are the terms, and you have to do it in a certain way or the books will not be in bookshops. It is not just a matter of producing a good book; you have to adopt these practices. That is what the Kewley/Richardson report is all about. We are actively changing procedures and working with publishers to ensure that we adopt these UK-wide best practices. So, it is important in that sense.

[225] The joint marketing strategy is a wider document. To use a phrase that everyone uses these days, it is about joined-up thinking and the way in which publishers can work together, and with the Welsh Books Council, to improve marketing across the sector. A publicist is a good example of that, because a publicist can work on behalf of lots of different publishers—getting attention by knowing exactly what the best angles are and knowing all the right people. So, that is an excellent example of something that is being done on a very small scale at the moment that could be done on a far larger scale. There is agreement that the books are there, but they could be doing a lot more. As I said, we are moving on a number of fronts at the moment, but we could do a lot more if additional money was available.

[226] Eleanor Burnham: This is so interesting. I have so many questions, but I know that the Chair is going to restrict me. [227] Yr ydych yn gwneud gwaith gwych. You are doing excellent work. I understand that Deallaf fod ymdopi â’r arian ac ati yn eithaf coping with the money and so on is quite anodd. Mae fy nghwestiwn yn ymwneud â dau difficult. My question relates to two matters fater nad ydym wedi eu hystyried. Sut y gallwn that we have not considered. How can we help helpu neu gefnogi’r busnesau bregus, bach or support these fragile, small businesses? Is it hyn? A yw’n bosibl i ni ddarparu rhyw fath o possible for us to provide some extra help to help ychwanegol er mwyn cefnogi eu support their development? datblygiad?

[228] I think that this is probably the same for books in English as well; these are small, very fragile publishing companies that need a great deal of help. What else can we do, and who should be helping them?

[229] My other question concerns the circular path of the curriculum, getting all of these books, whether they are in the Welsh or the English language, onto the curriculum, and the amount of training that is required and the extent to which we can develop the curriculum, because, as I am sure Denise will agree, the key to this is probably getting the educational resources so that, if teachers have not heard about all of these wonderful books while they are training, at least they will have the facility to discuss them if we can get them on the curriculum. It is a circle of events really. As well as your contact with this committee, do you discuss this with education officials and so on in the Assembly’s Department for Education, Lifelong Learning and Skills? My first question about how we can help these companies probably lies with the Department for Enterprise, Innovation and Networks, because it is about helping small businesses, whatever kind of businesses they are. Those are my two questions; everything else that I wanted to raise has already been discussed.

[230] Laura Anne Jones: My question concerns education and whether any of these books are on the curriculum. I have just started learning Welsh, so I would be at the children’s books stage, but when I was learning French and German, which I am now very good at, I bought books for all stages that were not on the curriculum as well as those that were. Is this sort of information on what books are available in the Welsh language other books in the Welsh language, as well as those on the curriculum, available in schools and school libraries, so that children will be aware that they can buy and read them?

[231] Ms Pierce Jones: I will start with the curriculum, and perhaps Kirsti will take over. [232] On the Welsh-language side, it is not a problem, obviously, because children are studying Welsh-language books in school, and so they see what is available. The books council produces a catalogue once a year, in co-operation with, and jointly funded by, what used to be Qualifications, Curriculum and Assessment Authority for Wales. It is a complete and comprehensive catalogue of everything that is available in the Welsh language, encompassing popular material and all the educational material. So, it is there, once a year. It is all on gwales.com as well, of course, but multiple copies of this catalogue are posted to every school library, and they are used. In English, of course, it is far more difficult—it is the Welsh curriculum, and this came to light in the evidence that you took during the policy review. It is about getting things on the curriculum. As far as I know, quite a few titles are on the syllabus, but they are choices, and so you do not have to study these books.

[233] Denise Idris Jones: Mae hynny’n Denise Idris Jones: That is important, I must bwysig, rhaid dweud. say.

[234] Ms Pierce Jones: Ydy, mae hynny’n Ms Pierce Jones: Yes, it is. bwysig.

[235] Children are not required to read them. That is part of the problem—getting these books to be a part of the curriculum so that children have to study a range of Welsh writing in English.

[236] Mr Jones: More and more publishers now are also preparing educational packs, which will obviously help the teachers in the classroom. That will be of benefit. That is a case in point with a number of Welsh-language publications, and it is also true of the Library of Wales series, with the educational packs being very useful for the teacher.

[237] Ms Bohata: With Welsh writing in English, there are moves by publishers towards engaging with the education sector at every level. Pont is the special English-language series of children’s books with a specific remit to have a Welsh context or setting, and the editor of that series is a former teacher, so she is very much in tune with the requirements of the classroom. Extra material has been produced around those books for teachers, and the Welsh Books Council schools officers promote those books within schools as well. At the secondary level, you have the issue of what is on the curriculum for examinations, and Welsh schools do not necessarily take Welsh examination papers anymore. However, the Library of Wales series has made a huge contribution in this regard, because a gift set of the entire series has gone to every secondary school in Wales, as well as to libraries, and the educational resource pack has also been distributed. The fact that you have a series of classics gives these books a sense of permanence and importance that they perhaps would not have had on their own without the Library of Wales brand, if you like. So, there are improvements there, and then, at university level, you are also seeing an increase in Welsh-writing- in-English courses. There are now specific MAs in Welsh writing in English. More importantly, however, there are Welsh-writing-in-English undergraduate courses, and that is a crucial change so that the broad spectrum of English students going to university in Wales are starting to be offered Welsh-writing-in-English courses, which include many of the Library of Wales titles as well as many other titles, including contemporary writing from Wales, too. So that is an improvement [238] Eleanor Burnham: You did not answer my question about the publishing. Who should be helping?

[239] Rosemary Butler: I think that it was a matter of resources. We looked at that earlier on, and I think that additional funding was the issue.

[240] Eleanor Burnham: If you do not mind, Chair, my other question was not answered. Are you engaging with the education department officials, as you are engaging with us in our committee? The point was about getting more Welsh—

[241] Rosemary Butler: I think that they understand the point. Are you engaging?

[242] Ms Pierce Jones: Yes.

[243] Rosemary Butler: At what level?

[244] Ms Pierce Jones: It is with civil servants all the time, obviously, in the education department, which actually funds projects in the books council. We talk regularly.

11.50 a.m.

[245] Owen John Thomas: Mae ysgolion Owen John Thomas: Welsh-medium schools Cymraeg yn bwysig ar gyfer llyfrau Cymraeg, are important for Welsh-language books, achos maent yn cynhyrchu’r plant sy’n gallu because they create the children who can read darllen y llyfrau hynny, darllen llyfrau those books, read Welsh books, and they grow Cymraeg, ac maent yn tyfu i fod yn oedolion, into adults, and so on. Is this strengthening? ac yn y blaen. A yw hyn yn cryfhau? A yw Are sales of subject books and story books to gwerthiant llyfrau pwnc a llyfrau straeon i Welsh-medium schools increasing? Do you ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg yn cynyddu? A oes know what is happening in this area? gennych syniad beth sy’n digwydd yn hyn o beth?

[246] Cododd Elwyn bwynt—a chredaf ei fod Elwyn raised a point—and I think that he is ar yr un trywydd â fi—am becynnau. Pan yr thinking along the same lines as me—on packs. oeddwn yn dysgu, yr oeddwn yn ei chael yn When I taught, I found it difficult to persuade anodd i argyhoeddi athrawon i addysgu hanes teachers to teach Welsh history as we were Cymru fel yr oeddem i fod yn ôl y cwricwlwm, supposed to do, according to the curriculum, gan ei fod yn llawer haws i ddefnyddio pecyn a because it was far easier to use a pack that was oedd yn llawn deunydd am Guto Ffowc a thân full of material about Guy Fawkes and the great mawr Llundain, er enghraifft. Mae llawer o fire of London, for example. A great deal of ddeunydd ar gael yn Saesneg am material is available in English on events in ddigwyddiadau yn Lloegr, ac mae’n anodd cael England, and it is difficult to get such packs to pecynnau felly i addysgu plant am yr hyn sydd teach children about what has happened in wedi digwydd yng Nghymru, yn Saesneg neu Wales, in English or in Welsh. What is your yn Gymraeg. Beth yw eich barn am hynny? opinion on that? [247] Ms Pierce Jones: Nid wyf wedi siarad Ms Pierce Jones: I have not spoken much llawer am lyfrau plant oherwydd bod llyfrau about children’s books because the area of plant wedi bod yn gymharol gryf cyn y cyfnod children’s books was relatively strong before yr wyf yn sôn amdano. Yr ochr llyfrau oedolion the period that I am talking about. It is books sydd wedi manteisio ar yr arian ychwanegol for adults that have benefited from the extra oedd ar gael. Mae pethau’n dal i wella—mae tri funding that was available. Things are chorff yn ariannu cyhoeddiadau yn Gymraeg, continuing to improve—three bodies fund sef Cyngor Llyfrau Cymru, sy’n ariannu’r Welsh-language publications, namely the deunydd hamdden i blant, Cyd-Bwyllgor Welsh Books Council, which funds leisure Addysg Cymru, ac Awdurdod Cymwysterau, material for children, the Welsh Joint Education Cwricwlwm ac Asesu Cymru, sydd erbyn hyn Council, and the Qualifications, Curriculum yn rhan o’r Llywodraeth ac sydd yn comisiynu and Assessment Authority for Wales, which is deunydd ar gyfer ysgolion, a’r math o bethau yr now part of the Government, and which oedd Owen John yn cyfeirio atynt. Maent yn commissions material for schools and the types adnabod meysydd y mae angen deunyddiau of things that Owen John referred to. They arnynt, boed yn llyfrau, ffeiliau, neu beth identify needs, whether they are books, files, or bynnag, ac yn mynd ati i gomisiynu deunydd ar whatever, and commission materials for the gyfer y dosbarth. Bu’r gwaith hwnnw yn mynd classroom. This work has been under way for a ymlaen ers nifer o flynyddoedd, ac mae’n mynd number of years, and it is going from strength o nerth i nerth fel bod y bylchau’n cael eu to strength as each gap is closed. So, there are llenwi fesul un. Felly, mae tri chorff, ac mae three bodies, and that is interesting because, in hynny’n ddiddorol oherwydd, o ran yr ochr terms of the English side that we have been Saesneg yr ydym wedi bod yn siarad amdani, y discussing, only the Welsh Books Council has a cyngor llyfrau yn unig sydd â’r cyfrifoldeb funding responsibility. On the Welsh-language ariannu. Mae tri chorff yn ymwneud â’r ochr side, in terms of children’s books, three bodies Gymraeg, o ran llyfrau i blant, ac maent yn dod are involved, and they come from different o wahanol gyfeiriadau. directions.

[248] O ran rhoi gwybod i ysgolion, yr wyf In terms of informing schools, I have already wedi cyfeirio at y catalog eisoes, ond mae gan y referred to the catalogue, but the books council cyngor llyfrau adran ysgolion hefyd, lle mae also has a schools department, where four pedwar person—tri yn y maes cynradd a’r llall people—three covering the primary sector and yn y maes uwchradd—sydd yn gweithio’n the other covering the secondary sector—work llawn amser ac yn mynd o gwmpas ysgolion full time, travelling around schools in Wales Cymru bob dydd yn cynghori athrawon, yn every day, advising teachers, showing them the dangos y deunyddiau sydd ar gael iddynt ac yn materials that are available and giving them the rhoi cyfle iddynt brynu’r deunyddiau drwy opportunity to buy the materials through local siopau lleol. Felly, mae pobl yn mynd o shops. So, there are people going around gwmpas ysgolion i ddangos llyfrau a hefyd i schools to show books and also to receive gael adborth gan ysgolion am y math o bethau y feedback from schools about the types of things maent eisiau, ac i gyfeirio hynny yn ôl at that they want, and to refer that back to wahanol gyrff. Felly, mae llawer yn digwydd different bodies. So, a lot is happening in that yn y maes hwnnw. area. [249] Owen John Thomas: Mae problem cyw Owen John Thomas: There is a chicken-and- ac wy yn y fan hyn, gan fod llawer o ysgolion egg problem here, because many schools in yng Nghymru yn gallu cael gafael ar y Wales can avail themselves of the packs on pecynnau sy’n eu haddysgu am hanes Lloegr, English history, and the subsequent problem is a’r broblem, o ganlyniad, yw nad yw disgyblion that pupils do not take an interest in books yn ymddiddori mewn llyfrau am Gymru yn about Wales in English when they become Saesneg pan fyddant yn oedolion gan eu bod yn adults because they are foreign to them, even estron iddynt, er eu bod yn byw yng Nghymru. though they live in Wales. This is an Mae hwn yn fater sy’n gorlapio, gan ei fod overlapping issue, as it also falls within the hefyd yn dod o fewn y portffolio addysg. education portfolio. It is important that Mae’n bwysig bod gwybodaeth am hanes information on Welsh history is given to Cymru yn cael ei roi i blant yn ysgolion Cymru, children in schools in Wales, be they Welsh or boed yn ysgolion cyfrwng Cymraeg neu English-medium schools. They will then be gyfrwng Saesneg. Byddant wedyn yn fwy more likely to buy books in English or Welsh tebygol o brynu llyfrau yn Saesneg neu about Wales. Without that foundation of Gymraeg am Gymru. Heb y sylfaen hwnnw o understanding and information about the ddealltwriaeth a gwybodaeth am y wlad y country in which they live, we will be fighting maent yn byw ynddi, byddwn yn ymladd yn against the tide to get people to take an interest erbyn y llanw i gael pobl i ymddiddori mewn in books about Wales in English or Welsh. llyfrau am Gymru yn Saesneg neu Gymraeg.

[250] Rosemary Butler: I think that we would all agree with that.

[251] Mr Jones: Mae’r cyhoeddwyr yn symud Mr Jones: The publishers are slowly starting to yn araf deg i baratoi’r adnoddau felly. O gael yr prepare such resources. Once they have the adnoddau cywir, mae ein swyddogion ysgol yn right resources, our school officers can present gallu cyflwyno’r wybodaeth. Dyna sydd yn the information. That is what is important. bwysig.

[252] Rosemary Butler: Laura, did you want to raise another point on education?

[253] Laura Anne Jones: I would like to make a small point. It seems to me that demand for Welsh-language books will naturally grow, because of the increase in Welsh-medium education. Ten years ago, when I was in school, it was not an option for me to learn Welsh, but it is now available in every school. Most people will carry it on in their lives and will then choose to read in that language. So, I assume that the demand will naturally grow, will it not?

[254] Rosemary Butler: Hopefully. Now that everyone has to learn Welsh until they are 16 years old, that should develop. I have two more speakers and then I will close the item. [255] Denise Idris Jones: Gwn ychydig bach Denise Idris Jones: I know a little bit about am y pwnc hwn. Mae’n rhan o gwricwlwm this subject. It is part of the curriculum for TGAU llenyddiaeth Saesneg i astudio gwaith o GCSE English literature to study work from ddiwylliant arall. Mae’n bosibl edrych, er another culture. It is possible to look, for enghraifft, ar waith Kate Roberts sydd wedi’i example, at the work of Kate Roberts that has gyfieithu. Mae un o’i llyfrau, Traed Mewn been translated. One of her books, Traed Mewn Cyffion, wedi ei gyfieithu i’r Saesneg gyda’r Cyffion, has been translated into English and teitl Feet in Chains. Felly, mae’n bosibl edrych has the title Feet in Chains. Therefore, it is ar waith Kate Roberts, ond yn Saesneg. possible to look at the work of Kate Roberts, but in English.

[256] Lisa Francis: Before money was made available following the ‘Welsh Writing in English’ report, there was a cluster of small publishing houses in mid and west Wales. My question might put you on the spot. It is marvellous to think that there are now publishing houses out there that are able to attract big-name authors, as you said. However, without that money, do you think that it would be fair to say that one of those publishing houses—or perhaps two—would have gone under by now?

[257] Ms Bohata: All of these publishers operate fragile businesses. Without wanting to paint too bleak a picture, yes, they could very easily go under from month to month. The new money has certainly made a difference to the sustainability of some of them, but it is still early days yet.

[258] Rosemary Butler: That is an important point, namely how fragile that area of the sector is. Thank you very much for that, it was very interesting. What you have told us this morning shows us that some of our reviews as a committee are a cause for celebration; some—I will not pursue that point. The point has been made that, for not that much of an investment, there has been a huge return. I suggest that we put in the legacy report that someone looks at the joint marketing review to see what can be done to help to move it forward, because that is a big piece of work that will make a huge difference. So, if the committee is happy with that, we will include something on the joint marketing review in our legacy report.

[259] Eleanor Burnham: Regarding the publishing houses as businesses, who else can help them? If they are so fragile, we should not be the only ones helping them. Should we not discuss this with the Enterprise, Innovation and Networks Committee?

[260] Rosemary Butler: We need to put in the fact that the sector is fragile. It could go under ‘Cross-cutting issues’. The current Minister has made a big stab at investment; if the next Minister could add more to that, it would be very helpful. Thank you very much for coming this morning, it has been interesting.

[261] I remind members of the committee that the next meeting is on 1 March. We will be joined by all of the other ASPBs. We will be joining the Presiding Officer for his reception at the end of the meeting, so if would be helpful if you could keep your diaries free at the end of the meeting.

Daeth y cyfarfod i ben am 11.59 a.m. The meeting ended at 11.59 a.m.