APPG Race and Community meeting on Black, Pakistani and Bangladeshi female unemployment, 17 th July, 2-4pm, House of Commons Committee Room 9

Parliamentary attendees: MP (Chair), Debbie Abrahams MP, Tom Brake MP, Diane Abbott MP, Baroness Hussein-Ece, Richard Fuller MP, Baroness Howells, MP, Baroness Whitaker

Summary

Panel 1 Professor Anthony Heath, Oxford University; Zamila Bunglawala, Fellow, the Young Foundation; Collette Cork-Hurst, National Officer for Equalities, Unite

• In response to a question asking for the current situation regarding unemployment of Black, Pakistani and Bangladeshi women, Anthony Heath referred to figures from 1972 onwards, stating that unemployment of Black women has remained at around double that of White women since this time. He added that even in times when unemployment has increased overall, this ratio has remained the same, except for in the 1980s when the inequalities were even greater. • He stressed that women from Somalia and the Horn of Africa are currently expressing high unemployment rates and called on the committee to place a particular focus on this group. • He confirmed statistics obtained by the committee which stated that the unemployment rates of Black and Pakistani/Bangladeshi women are 17.7% and 20.5% respectively compared to 6.8% of White women. • On economic inactivity of Pakistani and Bangladeshi women, Anthony Heath stated that it has decreased over time and over the generations. However, he added that there has been no decrease over time or generations in ethnic minority unemployment rates: the second generation still experience high unemployment rates which are as high as those of the first generation. • In response to a question from Diane Abbott MP , Anthony Heath explained that the reason why, on average, Black women have a higher rate of pay is because Black women are more likely to be employed full time than White women. • He also drew attention to research carried out by the Department for Work and Pensions in 2008 which found that employment rejection rates were high for those with an African or Asian sounding name. • Collette Cork-Hurst stated that people are not talking enough about discrimination in the workplace and in recruitment, and added that Black women are more likely to lose their jobs due to workplace discrimination. • Zamila Bunglawala agreed with the above and stated that many hijab wearing Pakistani and Bangladeshi women feel they have been discriminated against in interviews due to wearing a headscarf, adding that research shows that some Muslim women who removed their hijab for interviews were successful in getting a job, having worn their hijab to previous interviews and being unsuccessful. She added that a university education does not necessarily mean that these women are going to earn more. • David Lammy MP asked whether the retrenchment of the public sector in this recession is making things worse, and also asked whether Black women made redundant from the public sector will find it more difficult to be re-employed, for example as a consultant. In response, Zamila Bunglawala said that it is difficult to know as yet the full impact of this recession, but added that there are very few Black women in the upper echelons of the public sector meaning that few will have the capacity for consultancy work. • Collette Cork-Hurst stated that early anecdotal evidence suggests that Black women are being hard hit by public sector job cuts. She added that front-line workers are likely to be hit, who are more likely to be Black women. • In response to a question from Tom Brake MP on whether a colour-blind approach works in reducing these inequalities, Anthony Heath stated that the Government has had a colour-blind approach for 40 years which has not reduced the gap, adding that a new approach is therefore needed. He drew attention to good practice taking place in Northern Ireland where employers monitor and compare their workforce to the demographics of the local population. He also highlighted other good practice such as name-blank applications and targeted adverts to under-represented groups. He added that there is no legal barrier to the Northern Ireland approach being rolled our in the UK, but added that the Northern Ireland equality body is better funded and could therefore push employers more effectively on the issue. • Collette Cork-Hurst added mandatory monitoring of the workforce is needed for all employers, and this should include monitoring of ethnic minority women, not just ethnic minorities and women separately. • She added that until the Work Programme recognises that ethnic minorities face particular barriers (which are present in recruitment, selection and retention) the policy will not effectively address inequalities. • Anthony Heath stated that informal recruitment, such as through “word of mouth”, cuts off opportunities for many ethnic minorities. • Diane Abbott MP drew attention to the fact that many top employers target Russell Group universities which have lower numbers of ethnic minority students compare to other institutions. • Baroness Hussein-Ece asked why many ethnic minority women are not taking advantage of free child care and Sure Start places. Zamila Bunglawala stated that many Bangladeshi and Pakistani women have no experience of childcare and are living in areas where childcare is more expensive. She added that knowledge of free childcare and take up of working tax credits is low, and that better information and communication is needed in these communities to increase take up. She also stressed that the benefits of childcare for mother and child are not effectively communicated, and that there are sometimes cultural barriers to taking up childcare services, such as the preference for availability of Halal food by childcare providers. • Collette Cork-Hurst added that Black women differ from Bangladeshi women in that they rely on childcare, Sure Start and after school clubs, and are now being negatively impacted by that fact that many of these services are closing down. • On reasons behind inactivity rates, Anthony Heath stated that reasons for this can include personal choice, discouragement, barriers and a variety of other mechanisms. • Debbie Abrahams MP asked what proportion of unemployment rates are due to unconscious bias. In response, Anthony Heath said that he has tried to measure this, but added that it is a difficult thing to do. He added that his best guess is that 25% of the gap is due to prejudice and discrimination, and a small proportion is due to education level. In addition, lack of social capital also has an impact on this, ie not having the personal networks to hear about job vacancies. • Anthony Heath also spoke about the “chill factor”, which he explained was a feeling from ethnic minorities that they would not “fit in” in a particular work place or institution and would therefore not apply, effectively de-selecting themselves from jobs. He added, for example, that there has been a shortfall in applications to Oxford from ethnic minorities, especially Black Caribbeans, due to this reason. • Tom Brake MP returned to the topic of childcare, asking whether there is any good practice the witnesses know of in improving take up by particular ethnic groups. In response, Zamila Bunglawala said that there is none that she is aware of, but suggested that schemes increasing the numbers of Bangladeshi and Pakistani women working in childcare could help improve overall take-up. • Anthony Heath suggested contacting an organisation called QED-UK in Bradford to find out if they have any examples of best practice. • When asked by Tom Brake MP on whether lack of take up is a cultural issue, Zamila Bunglawala again stressed it is primarily an information issue, and referred to research by the Daycare Trust on the topic. • David Lammy MP asked why some ethnic minorities, such as those from the Chinese and Indian communities, are doing better in the labour market than other groups, and asked whether there are any positive examples which could be replicated. In response, Anthony Heath said that the differences are largely due to the cultural and economic background of those groups when originally migrating to the UK. For example, he stated that the Indian community is more heterogeneous with an established middle class, which increases social capital, helps social mobility and provides role models. • Diane Abbott MP moved to the topic of unpaid internships, arguing that many ethnic minorities would not be able to afford to undertake such schemes. In response, Collette Cork-Hurst agreed that pay is a key issue but drew attention to examples of best practice highlighted by Race for Opportunity around paid internships for university students, a group who are more likely to undertake apprenticeships than those of school age. Zamila Bunglawala added that the Co-Operative and BT have stood out as being particularly good employers, who have, amongst other things, put forward positive images and broken down myths. • Diane Abbott MP returned to the theme of public sector job cuts, to which Collette Cork-Hurst responded by saying there are historical reasons as to why Black women are more likely to be concentrated in this sector, such as difficulties getting jobs in the private sector. Anthony Heath made the point that a request should be made to government departments asking for a breakdown of how many public sector jobs have been lost by ethnic group. • Returning to the issue of internships and work experience, Baroness Hussein-Ece asked whether schools should be doing more to assist pupils with this. In response Collette Cork-Hurst stated that Race for Opportunity has examples of good practice in relation to links between schools and employers on this issue. • Zamila Bunglawala also pointed to the work of the Education Employers Taskforce which is focused on analysing the quality of work experience. • In response to a question from Baroness Howells warning against treating ethnic minorities as victims, Anthony Heath was critical of Oxford University and its failure to attract ethnic minority pupils. He also stated that the early applications date at Oxford and Cambridge discriminates against the disadvantaged since their schools will be geared to the standard applications date, and pointed to institutional barriers at universities and elsewhere which governments should get rid of. Zamila Bunglawala pointed to bursaries available for disadvantaged pupils, but stated that take up is very low. • Ending the session, Debbie Abrahams MP asked for the reasons behind high inactivity rates of Bangladeshi and Pakistani women. In response, Anthony Heath said that inactivity rates in the past were partly high due to many first generation women from these groups were unable to speak English. Zamila Bunglawala added that the inactivity rate is still higher than we would expect for the second generation.

Panel 2 Clare Bonson, Head of Business Development and Support, National Apprenticeship Service (NAS); Daniel Mokades, Rare Recruitment ; Cynthia Masiyiwa, Active Horizons

• In response to a question asking for the key challenges facing the target groups at this current time, Cynthia Masiyiwa said that discrimination has been an issue in her personal experience. • Clare Bonson from the National Apprenticeships Service (NAS) argued that there has been an increase in the numbers of ethnic minorities “absolutely and proportionately” on Apprenticeship schemes, but was unable to break this down by gender, stating that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) owns these figures, but the NAS is unable to make them public. The APPG decided to write to BIS asking for these figures. • Clare Bonson stated that overall there was a 63% increase in Apprenticeships last year, adding that ethnic minorities make up 10% of this number, and that this figure was 6.3% in 2008. • Focusing on specific groups, she stated that the number of Asian people on Apprenticeship schemes has increased from 9390 to 19,270, and amongst Black people this has increased from 6390 to 14,610. • Clare Bonson stated that an Apprenticeship was first and foremost a job with an employer who has full responsibility for all employment rules and regulations. She added that the Apprenticeship is the framework of training that supports this job role. • Moving to the issue of recruitment, Clare Bonson stated that the NAS has formalised the use of Apprenticeship Vacancies (on-line application process) as a recruitment tool which can help to avoid some of the negative impacts of informal recruitment. She added that 24% of applications made through Apprenticeships Vacancies come from ethnic minorities, and stated that this figure has increased year on year. • Following this, David Lammy MP went on to highlight that whilst these figures may bring the numbers of ethnic minorities on schemes close to the population proportion reflected in the 2001 census, he added that given that Apprenticeships are mainly for young people, it is important to take into account that the youth ethnic minority population proportion is far larger than the general ethnic minority population proportion. He added that the proportion is even greater in • Diane Abbott MP followed this by saying that 10% ethnic minority Apprenticeships in London is a “derisory” figure. In response, Clare Bonson said that in London the number of apprenticeships has increased by 103%, and she will provide follow up evidence outlining the numbers of ethnic minority apprentices in London if possible. • In response to a question from Tom Brake MP asking how this increase has been achieved, Clare Bonson stated that talking to employers and engaging learners has been effective, and added that more best practice will be available in the government’s soon to be published diversity pilot findings. • In response to a question from David Lammy MP on whether the Olympics has been beneficial for employment of ethnic minority communities, Cynthia Masiyiwa praised the fact that Olympics employees have been paid living wage. • She went into more detail on how her organisation helped local people from Bexley – many of whom were ethnic minority women – get jobs at the Olympic Park. She stated that when the positions were initially advertised many people did not apply due to lack of confidence, particularly women. Active Horizons therefore went door to door in the local area to tell people about opportunities and helped coach them up for interviews. As a result, 100 people her team worked with got jobs at the Olympic park. • Daniel Mokades stated that Rare works in “top end” graduate recruitment and has 2700 candidates on their books, which are a mixture of students and recent graduates. Of these, the majority are female with 3 As at A level. In addition, the majority are Black. • Speaking specifically about Pakistani and Bangladeshi female inactivity rates, Daniel Mokades said that many he has worked with or spoken to in focus groups state that lifestyle and culture is important in relation to employment, and many do not want to travel far to work as they do not want to be far away from their family. • Moving to the issue of different quality apprenticeships, Baroness Hussein-Ece asked whether the National Apprenticeship Service had a breakdown how many ethnic minority women have places on the more “prestigious” schemes. In response, Clare Bonson said that engineering Apprenticeships, which are usually seen as more prestigious, are largely white and male dominated. She added that ethnic minorities are proportionately better represented in sectors such as retail, public services, business administration, health and law. She added that the recent diversity pilots focused on how to challenge stereotypes in particular sectors, and included running courses in local areas on the benefits of diversifying the workforce. • Baroness Whitaker asked the witnesses whether they have dealt with Gypsy, Roma and Traveller female unemployment. All witnesses said they have had little to no contact with these groups, and Baroness Whitaker therefore asked for follow up evidence from these groups highlighting what efforts they are making to reach out to these women. • In response to a question from Debbie Abrahams MP asking what priority the NAS gives to diversity issues, Clare Bonson said that it is now one of the organisation’s five priorities, and was receiving increased attention. She added that the organisation does not have specific targets, but also mentioned that the NAS has commissioned the TUC to undertake research into Apprenticeships and race equality including the exploration of challenges and barriers. • In relation to recruitment, Clare Bonson stated that NAS has a consistent approach to advertising vacancies. 24% of applications on Apprenticeship Vacancies were from BME individuals, which, according to Bonson, illustrates that the Apprenticeship offer is attractive. She added that the NAS does not and can not control the decision at the point of employment but wishes to work with partners to ensure BME young people are given the best chance of success. • In addition, she agreed to write to the committee stating how many ethnic minorities work at NAS as employment account managers. • Clare Bonson also stated that there is now a minimum 12 month duration for Apprenticeships. • After a return to questioning on the work of Rare Recruitment, Daniel Mokades stated that 65% of the 2700 people on Rare’s books are BME women, and added that they get 1 in 4 of those on their books into full time employment. He added that this amount has increased over time in line with Rare’s work becoming more effective. • In response to questions asking how Rare maximises the employment chances of those they work with, Daniel Mokades stated that ideally they would work with candidates on a one to one basis over a three year period. He added that it is important to try and help BME students before they go to university in order to make sure they make the right A level choices and apply to the best universities for their future career. He mentioned Rare’s “Target Oxbridge” programme which focuses on helping to get more Black students into Oxford and Cambridge universities. • In response to a question from Diane Abbott MP , he stated that Rare places people in top banks, the civil service, Magic Circle law firms and graduate schemes in top businesses. He agreed to provide a note to the committee detailing exactly where people have been placed. • In response to a question asking whether companies just work with Rare in order to “tick a box”, he stated that if they ever felt this was the case they would walk away from the arrangement. • In response to a question from Diane Abbott MP asking whether Rare are hoping to improve the numbers of candidates it gets into job, Daniel Mokades pointed out that overall only 1% of ethnic minorities get a place on the Civil Service Fast Stream. However 40% of those applying through Rare get in. • Following this, David Lammy MP asked for his view on how Black women who don’t use or get on the books of Rare fare in the labour market. In response, Daniel Mokades said that many “self select” out of certain employers and industries due to a feeling that they are not good enough to get in. He stated that engagement and giving these women networks to tap into is important. He also added that in some industries, such as the police, there is massive cultural resistance from parents in relation to their children applying for jobs there. • Responding to a question from Tom Brake MP asking what drives employers to use Rare, Daniel Mokades said that many struggle with recruiting a diverse workforce, even though they care about the issue. Also Rare are respected for having a proven track record in the field. He added that diversity is particularly important to employers currently given that they are trying to do business in emerging global markets. • Ending the session, Tom Brake MP asked how BME applicants’ confidence can be increased. Referring to her own work, Cynthia Masiyiwa stated that building training around applicants’ interests is important, as is looking for opportunities for which these applicants have specific skills.