W.E.B. Du Bois Institute

Folk the Kasbah Author(s): Elias Muhanna and Omar Sayyed Source: Transition, No. 94 (2003), pp. 132-149 Published by: Indiana University Press on behalf of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3172475 Accessed: 05/04/2010 13:54

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http://www.jstor.org X~WConversation

FOLK THE KASBAH

A conversationwith OmarSayyed, leader of Nass el Ghiwane

Elias Muhanna

In the back room of a dusky Casablanca "lii." He pronounces the word with cafe, three men are trying to teach me a exquisite slowness, flicking his tongue lesson. Our dialogue is muffled by the against the second syllable, pressing it sounds of the city on a freezing Febru- into relief. ary afternoon: rain, traffic,and the steady I hesitate for a moment, going boom of ten-foot swells pounding the through the motions. "Il-li?" rock pools below the nearby pier. Inside The doctor's eyes are glowing as he the cafe, surly regularsbark at each other leans back and casts a triumphant look at over all manner of beverages: pastis and his comrades. cognac; green-tinted bottles of Cigale, "So what?" I ask abruptly. the local beer; syrupy mint tea, the The table erupts with flailing gestures "Berber whisky." and rapid-fire cursing in Arabic. The The three men surround me, their doctor stands and shoves his drink aside voices garbled and slurry with drink. in disgust. Omar lumbers out of his The leader-a soft-spoken giant named chair, aping his friend's pronunciation Omar Sayyed-reaches out to clamp a lesson. The third man at the table, a huge hand over my mouth. toothless old sailor, swipes the doctor's "Shut up and listen. I will explain it discarded glass and empties it in a single one last time," he says quietly. swallow. I laugh aloud and roll up my "Listen to me!" shrieks a young ge- sleeves. neticist, elbowing the big man aside. Omar finally regains the floor. "Don't "Listen, and repeat after me." The wiry be ashamed," he offers. "The difference doctor clears his throat, straightens his is very subtle. Listen again." collar, and licks his lips. He pauses and surveys the drunken Omar Sayyed "Illa,"he says. crowd menacingly, daring anyone to dis- Lara Messersmith "Illa,"I dutifully repeat. rupt his performance.

132 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 FOLK THE KASBAH 133 "Ma hmouni gheir ar-rijal illa da'ou." inscrutable. But we are in , and The words, nearly whispered, fill the si- everyone knows exactly what we are lence. Around the cafe, patrons are lis- talking about. The waiters and assembled tening in, grinning. cafe dwellers share a chuckle at my ex- "Which means," he says, "I worry for pense, while cabbies and grocers and ac- men when they disappear,when they are countants come over to greet my lost to us." teacher, Omar Sayyed. He knows almost He waits for my cue, and says:"As op- none of them, but they all know him. He posed to: Ma hmouni gheir ar-rijal ... il- is a singer, a celebrity, perhaps the most 1i ... da'ou,"lingering before and after famous voice in Morocco. He is fifty-six the penultimate word, and suddenly I years old. And he hasjust explained some hear it. song lyrics to me with the help of a ge- "Which means," I blurt, flushed with netic engineer and a drunken sailor. discovery, "I worry for those men who * * 0 disappeared. Right?" I am desperate to qualify: "Those men, the ones that you Moroccans are intensely proud of Nass knew? The ones you can name,who dis- el Ghiwane, the group Omar Sayyed and appeared, who were imprisoned four friends founded thirty-odd years right?" ago in Casablanca. People like to call Drinks are ordered; a busboy cheers. them the Beatles of Morocco-and also Omar eyes me appraisingly as his of Morocco, the Bob friends cackle and thump my back. My Dylans, and even the Grateful Dead. The translationlesson is complete. In a differ- profusion of titles is confusing but apt:in ent country, even a different Arab coun- the I970s, the members of Nass el Ghi- try, this conversation would have been wane (pronounced "ghee-WAN") were

Left to right: 'Allal Yalla, Omai Sayyed, La'arbl Batma, Abdolazi: al-Tahiri, Boujmil

Courtesy Nass el Ghiwane

134 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 indeed Western-style stars. They played before thousands of fans at packed are- nas, in country and abroad, and released dozens of recordings. Their songs played on every radio station, their logos em- blazoned on T-shirts, bumper stickers, and window decals. They grew their hair long, smoked dope, and wore white leather vests with mohair bell-bottoms. To most Moroccans, they looked like the revolution. As it happens, Nass el Ghiwane don't sound anything like the Beatles. Their music doesn't rock-it jangles, rumbles, and spins. It has a coarse, vaguely rural quality.When I first heard them, the im- age that came to mind was that of a crowded barnyard:a scene of squawking hens, lowing beasts of burden, a bony sheepdog trailing a passel of tin. The melodies are simple and soulful; the voices soar and dip in unison chants. But it is in the rhythm that you hear their in- credible dexterity. When the drums join in after a solo, the effect can be transformative,like a natural runner hit- ting his stride. The beat sways and shifts against the melody, drawing near and pute -but also melhoun,a medieval Mo- Clockwise from pulling away again, as though the tune roccan oral tradition with roots in the top: Omar Sayyed, La'arbl Batma, were trapped inside a whirling, weighted courtly arts of Moorish Spain. The Boujmll', Abdolaziz centrifuge. group's hypnotic rhythms borrowed al-Tahiri. Center: Nass el Ghiwane debuted in 1971, from the mystagogic cadences of the Sufi Mahmoud al-Sa'dI when Omar Sayyed was twenty-four brotherhoods, especially the Gnawa- CourtesyNass el years old. All five members sang, often descendents of West African slaves, Ghiwane in chorus, and the group played a mot- whose ritual exorcisms entailed what ley assortment of traditional instruments might be the original trance music. The in untraditional combinations: the sentir, banjo-a grittier African alternative to a gut-stringed bass lute; banjo; kettle- the Arab zither-reinforced the sense drums, frame drums, , and that this music, which was unlike any- cymbals. The plaintive melodies and thing ever heard in Morocco, was in its chants brought to mind 'aita, a popular own reckless way a summation of every- style associated with the shikhat-inde- thing ever heard in Morocco. It was a pendent women of sometimes ill re- self-consciously nationalist sound, new-

FOLK THE KASBAH 135 Gnawa musicians fangled and old-fashioned at the same wood, and ambergris that are used as From, La religion, time. infusions. In the opening verse, the nar- il'ivihla des esclaves by of rator asks the tray: "Where are those PNques (Befg(amo: Out of this ferment, the members Alorttti/ Vitati) Nass el Ghiwane emerged as custodians people of good intention once gathered of Morocco's cultural heritage, curators around you? Where are those blessed of its traveling show. Their songs were and principled people, those who once full of references to old poems, proverbs, accompanied you?" Evocative, poetical, medieval saints,and mystics. The fact that and vague, the song practicallybegs to be they sang in colloquial Moroccan rather interpreted.Who were those "principled than Egyptian Arabic affirmed this tip- people," anyway,and where did they go? of-the-tongue familiarity: Morocco was an erraticallyauthoritarian countryin the 1970s, a decademarked by It's hardto be at peace, but the love of drink coup attempts and assassinations,political is easy, kidnappings and censorship. Thousands Desire neverforgetsyou of "dissidents"-students, intellectuals, It's hardto be calm, but the passions of religious fundamentalists, leftists-were people are easy ... peremptorily jailed, silenced, or worse. So dfficult when the desirearises, when the Although the band steadfastly refused to ambergrisis put beforeme, explain itself, it isn't difficult to under- And the mint and wormwvood... stand why young, urban Moroccan audi- ences were thrilled and scandalized by This, from Nass el Ghiwane's most fa- Nass el Ghiwane's preoccupation with mous song, is stirring social commentary lost time, disintegrating landscapes, and disguised as a conversationbetween a man missing people. and his tea tray ("Essiniya"[The tea tray]). At the group's inaugural concert in The words invoke family or friends, gath- Casablanca, thunderous applause sum- ered around a platter of steaming cups, a moned them back on stage for an encore. pot of tea, and the sprigs of mint, worm- After the headlining act was canceled by

136 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 popular demand, Nass el Ghiwane played wane's sound, soaring above the group's an impromptu second set, and a star was unison chants. "My voice was high," re- born. As Tayyeb Seddiki, Morocco's lead- calls Omar Sayyed. "It rose to the ear. ing playwright, observed, "In the Ig6os, But Boujmii's was higher: it cut straight Moroccans were sick of the Egyptian to the heart." song. Totally fed up. The musicians were Still, Nass el Ghiwane has gone on to old men in burnooses droning on about release countless records. I mean that their lost loves. Young people weren't literally-Omar Sayyed, for one, has no so attracted to that-shall we say- idea how many official releases the group 'classical' aesthetic. Then along came a was party to, and that doesn't even in- group of young guys with long hair, clude the boodegs, which you can buy on singing short songs, in a dialect that we nearly any street corner in Marrakech. could understand, with a few political Some of their most recent recordings denunciations, and . . . voila! It was a are a kind of homage to black Morocco; smash hit." ChantsGnawa du Marocand Transemusique Their popularity was boundless. In the du Marocfeature faithful yet spirited inter- next few years, Nass el Ghiwane played pretations of that five-hundred-year-old all over Morocco, as well as Europe, black tradition. spawning hundreds of imitators and Of course, the group has had its crit- heralding the rebirth of Moroccan pop- ics. While other artists pursued Nass el ular music. In 1973, the group released Ghiwane's polemically hybrid sound- its debut album, Essiniya,featuring many Jil Jilala and Lem Chaheb are the most of their most potently allusive songs: famous-the chaabistyle has been over- "Fine ghadi biya khouya" [Where are shadowed by other musics, including the you taking me, brother?],"Ya barn insan" Gnawa music that has become ubiqui- [Oh, human],"El madi fatt" [The past is tous at world-music festivals. There are gone], and the beloved title track. They called their style chaabi,folk music, and Omar Sayyed is a singer, a celebrity, perhaps the chaabirevival became the dominant the most famous voice in Morocco. He sound of the 1970s. Nass el Ghiwane was largely responsible for the emergence has just explained some song lyrics to me of the Moroccan music industry, to say with the help of a genetic engineer and a nothing of Moroccan music piracy. In 1974, tragedy struck the group for drunken sailor. the first time with the death of Hgour Boujmii'. The whole country mourned also Western imports like rock, soul, and his death. The group's next album was especially hip-hop-not to mention rai, titled Hommagea' Boujmii'; "Ya sah" [Oh, the Algerian-bred sound that has be- my friend], one of its more powerful come a sort of pan-Arab house music. numbers, appeared years later on the Lyrically, too, the group's studied allu- soundtrack to Martin Scorsese's The Last siveness has come to seem more obtuse Temptationof Christ. Boujmii's soaring than enticing. By the late 1970s, even, voice was a crucial part of Nass el Ghi- Moroccan critics were complaining that

FOLK THE KASBAH 137 "the troubles of our time-while at the nent radio personality in the Common- center of the group's message-are not wealth, recently played the group on his realisticallyexpressed, and not adequately show. Their music is erudite and ethnic, given shape: they are consumed by the alien and enthralling. Indeed, it's easy to 'old-speak'and the entrancing rhythms." imagine the same audiences that have It seemed that Nass el Ghiwane spoke come to love the quirky late-sixties art- eloquently to a particular moment in pop of Brazil's Tropicalia making space in their hearts for seventies Muslim folk- Nass el Ghiwane's most famous song, pop modernists like Nass el Ghiwane. "Essiniya," is a stirring social commentary ELIAS MUHANNA: What has the disguised as a conversation between a band been up to these days? Have you man and his tea tray. been traveling? OMAR SAYYED: Not really.We may time, and that time has passed. Still, as I be doing a show next week in Tunis, but discovered in Casablanca,the group's fan we've mainly been playing around here. base is in no way limited to aging hip- EM: When was the last time you played sters.Preteen surfersin Essaouiralisten to a big show in Morocco? their music, while graduate students OS: We don't usually get to play big compose semiotic analysesof their lyrics. shows, these days. But we did one a little Even MohammedVI, the young king of while ago at Yacoub el Mansour-I Morocco, is said to be a fan-though his think the attendance was around 8o,ooo. enthusiasm does not match that of his It was sponsored by Ittihad-al-Ishtiraki. father, Hassan II, who used to book the EM: That's one of the socialist newspa- group for state dinners. pers. Do you support the socialists? The group members are beyond fa- OS: Absolutely not. I don't believe in mous: they're family. In 2001, Morocco political parties. Make sure you get that observed Nass el Ghiwane's thirtieth straight: I've never belonged to any po- birthday with concerts, television spe- litical party. cials, and an extraordinary twenty-five- EM: Does Nass el Ghiwane still perform part series in Ittihad-al-Ishtiraki,one of in Europe at all? the country's biggest newspapers. Some OS: Sure. The last big show we played articles celebrated the group's history was the "Jour de la Musique" festival in with misty-eyed reminiscences about the Paris, in front of the Eiffel Tower. It was boys from Casablanca (profiles, family huge: the Trocadero was totally packed. portraits, interviews); others reaffirmed The newspapers said the crowd was Nass el Ghiwane's continuing impor- 400,000 people. But you know, it's not tance to Moroccan society. The group easy to play in Europe. We're always still performs, though only two founding forced to explain that we're not some members remain -Omar and Allal Yalla, kind of traditional Moroccan group. the grizzled banjo player. They are also People assume that we must be an An- beginning to cross over into the English- dalusian orchestra or a Gnawa troupe ... speaking world. John Peel, the preemi- something folkloric and traditional.

138 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 These days, when we play in France, sizers,drum machines, samplers,or what- we get people at our shows who are ever, suddenly we're playing "Koranic in- second-generation French citizens- struments"! He said that if we wanted to children of Moroccan immigrants and attract big crowds, we'd have to com- they are completely assimilated into pletely change our look, our music, every- French society. The only thing they've thing.What can I say? hung onto from North Africa is rai- EM: I didn't realize that it was that bad. and it's a bastardized form of rai, in any OS: I think it annoys me more than any- case. They don't care about the lyrics; one else in the group, but I am horrified they don't know anything about the po- that anyone would consider us a tradi- etry. The last time we were in France, a tional ensemble, which, in Morocco, is promoter actually said to us, "Maybe we the kind of group that's hired to play should advertise you as a group that plays weddings or-if you're lucky, because Gnawa ritual Koranic instruments." the money is better-to entertain tour- From La religion des EM: Like the banjo! ists. That, to me, is not art. It's entertain- esclaves by Viviana Pdques (Bergamo: OS:Just because we're not using synthe- ment that sounds ethnic enough for Moretti/ Vitali)

FOLK THE KASBAH 139 OS: No, you're right. But there were many political groups in those years, and the general movement of the Istiqlal[In- dependence Party] began to split into separate tributaries quite quickly. There were pan-Arabists, there were socialists, there were many who remained loyal to the king. No matter what your politics were, it was impossible not to feel swept up in the excitement of independence. Plus, the world was changing so quickly; we were not impervious to what was happening in Europe and America. On the contrary, we were very much influ- enced by it. EM:You mean musically or socially? OS: Both, obviously. The hippie revo- lution arrived in Morocco by way of Casablanca.Wewere listening to Western Joudi Berdak tourists, or for the younger generation music, the Beatles, Jimi, the Stones. ? Polydor that's listening to bad rai. Young men were leaving their families in EM: Was it really all that different for the country to come and work in Casa- your generation? blanca, which probably felt, to them, like OS: Completely. I'm a child of the a different planet. I 940s. I grew up in Hay al Mohammedi, EM: What kinds of things made the a working-class district of Casablanca. biggest impression on you at the time? There was a real sense of hope and en- OS: Actually, I was most impressed-or thusiasm in my generation. Our parents obsessed, you could say-with the the- were nationalists.We were the children ater! We had the Theatre Municipal in of independence; everything was ripe. Casablanca,a great theater with a famous You got the sense that anything could director, Tayyeb Seddiki. It was a place happen. where ordinary people could go and lose EM: And this sentiment was particularly themselves in the novelty and fantasy of strong in Casablanca, I imagine. it all. OS: In Casa, yes, because the city repre- EM:When was this exactly? sented le nouveauMaroc. Casa was the in- OS: This was the mid-i96os.We used to dustrial center of the country, and it was hang out at the theater and watch the populated by Moroccans from all around plays. There are many kinds of perfor- the kingdom. Rich, poor, Berber, Arab, mance in Morocco, stretching back over as well as European. the centuries, but we were interested in EM: When you say that your parents bsat, which Tayyeb was exploring. Bsat were nationalists, what do you mean ex- theater is closest to what you know as actly?Was it possible to be anything but theater in the West. It uses a stage, of nationalistic right after independence?

140 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 sorts, and it has scenery and costumes. IFuneral of La'arbl And stock characters-many of these ffi) Batma, 1997 stories were familiar to us. But to see them brought onto a European-style stage was . . . well, it was startlingto us at the time. Tayyebwould turn proverbs into real, full-scale productions, with elaboratescenery and scores of actorsand sometimes musical numbers.We were quite in awe of him and his entourage, - Funeral of La'arbl which includedsome of the mostfamous Batma, 1997 actorsand writers of the Arabworld, at the time. EM:When you say "we,"you mean the band? OS: Everyone from Nass el Ghiwane was there,though we weren'tyet a group. We came separately,over the course of a few months,and after his seeing produc- 'Allal Yalla tions,we all wanted to become actors. CourtesyHassan EM: Not musicians? Habibi OS: No, we had our heartsset on acting at first.It was inevitable,because Tayyeb was an irresistibleforce. He treatedthe theaterlike a sacredplace; onstage, there wasn'ta singleperson out of place.Every- ~~~~~~~~~~'_ one had a little ritualto perform.When you finishedyour part,you'd sit quietly and remainin character,waiting for the rest of the play to end. And when you came back the next day,you'd find the propsand costumesback in theirproper places.I tell you, we weren'tused to that kind of discipline and attention. And people remained in character.Tayyeb didn'ttell you how to playyour part,he told you how to find your part. Even actors of the time, Ahmed Tayyeb Laalaj, now, when you watch Al Harraz-the said of us: "The beasts are being trained." filmed version, in black and white EM: So, was this the first true Moroccan you'd be amazed at what he produced theater? with kids who'd neverbeen on a proper OS: Well, not exactly, because we have stage.Everything moved, even the scen- always had a theatrical tradition in the ery! One of the other greatwriters and halqas.

FOLK THE KASBAH 141 EM: I've seen those in the Jemma' al else would accompany him with a tam- Fna', the huge central square in Mar- bourine or a drum.You would hear mu- rakech. They are basically street theater, sic and stories from all around Morocco. right? As a kid, crouching in that circle, you'd OS: The halqa is a combination of the- feel the hairs rise on the back of your ater,poetry, storyteling, music, and dance. neck as the performers created a world We spent an enormous amount of time in front of you. So, you could say that the at them as kids. halqawas the first true form of Moroc- EM: I think I've only really seen them can theater. in tourist traps.What were the real ones EM: Did the other guys from Ghiwane like? also go? And did you all know each OS: Quite simple. A man would get up other at that time? in front of a circle of spectators and tell OS: Absolutely, we used to go together.

La'arbi Batma a story-a long story, embellished with I knew Allal, Boujmii', and La'arbiat that beautiful details. At various points, he time; we met Paco and Abdelaziz later Courtesy Hassan Habibi would stop and sing, and then someone on. But the four of us all grew up on Moulay Sherif Street in Hay al Moham- medi. We've known each other for over fifty years. EM: Had any of you had any musical training? OS: Allal did: he could read music, and he was an excellent banjo player, even at that young age. The rest of us didn't have a formal music education.We didn't have much of a cultural or academic back- ground, period. But this is what I'm try- ing to say: the halqawas our school, our musical, social, and spiritual education. Without it, I don't think that there would have been a Nass el Ghiwane. EM: So, when did the inspiration for a musical group develop? OS: It all started in the Cafe Theatre, which was a little cafe that Tayyeb Sed- diki started up beside the Theatre Mu- nicipal. It had a little stage, and anybody could get up and perform in front of the regulars.Actors did monologues and lit- tle skits;musicians came and played. The caf&was filled with journalists and stu- dents and writers who would spend the whole day arguing and drinking coffee and smoking.

142 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 EM: Sounds a bit like a modern halqa. than the ordinary dialect you hear on OS: Actually, yes, except anyone could the street,that's because it is older. Al- get up and play. Tayyeb himself was do- Mellih,one of Morocco'sgreatest writers, ing very halqa-esque skits, one-man once saidthat he loved Nass el Ghiwane shows, poetry readings, storytelling, and because the language we used had a he roped us into adding some music into scent, a perfume.I think he meant that the mix to make some of the stories this languagehas the scent of an earlier more vivid. We'd never had a place like time, before independence,before colo- that in Morocco-that was the kind of nialism, when our great-great-grand- thing you'd find in Paris. But Tayyeb parentswere young. Most of our songs brought it here. He realized that we needed something like that, so people It's not easy to play in Europe. We're always could come together and debate art or forced to explain that we're not some kind of music or anything they liked. So anyway, that's where we first started playing as a traditional Moroccan group. Just because group, writing our own songs. we're not using synthesizers, drum EM: One of my favorite things to do in Casablanca is to strike up conversations machines, samplers, or whatever, suddenly with people in cafes, and ask them what we're playing "Koranic instruments"! your shows were like in the 1970s. I have yet to speak to somebody between forty are written in that language,and we in- and fifty years old who had never been corporateda lot of the imagesfrom the to one. The look they get in their eyes- old proverbs.Our name,even.We found when they describe that time-is price- it in a melhoun:"I asked the jasmine less. aboutyou / I askedthe rose/ I askedthe OS: The shows were really special, par- friendsof Ghiwaneabout you." ticularly the more intimate ones, because Of course,we took proverbsfrom all you felt like you were in the presence of over the country,not just the most fa- a family. Everybody knew every word, mous ones-not just Abderrahmanal the music tied us all together. Majdub.And we drew heavilyfrom the EM: People often talk about the diffi- poetry of the Amazighen,the . culties of interpreting-let alone trans- The creativityof the Amazighen is in- lating-your songs. credible;you don't find it anywhereelse. OS:You know, our parents spoke in a di- They have a very expressivelanguage. alect, a vernacular that was very poetic. It You know, every roosterin the world is was creative and complicated, and they a Berber. had learned it from their parents. That EM: Excuse me? language is almost seductive in its de- OS: When the rooster crows in the scriptiveness, and it is full of proverbs, morning,he singsfive notes. [Omardem- which are passed from generation to onstrates.]The notes are identicalto the generation. ones in the pentatonic scale that all of Anyway, this is the language we sing Berber music is built on. No matter in, and if it sounds different to you where the rooster is, in Russia, in Bo-

FOLK THE KASBAH 143 livia, in China, he sings five notes. That's He listened to what the beggar was because the rooster is Berber. singing: EM: I'll keep that in mind. Do you have a song about that? I'vegone and left all behind OS: [Laughing.] No, but it isn't a bad Myfamily and loved ones didn't want me idea. Anyway, when we got up on stage, to go people were initially surprised to hear But I didn'tfall into this oceanby chance... that the words we sang were from a dif- ferent generation. But at the same time, That's what the beggar was singing. they didn't sound archaic, like the tradi- So La'arbi took it, added some other tional music we'd heard growing up. Our verses and brought it to Boujmii', our main singer, and Boujmii' transformed it The haiqa is a combination of theater, poetry, completely. Boujmii' sang: storytelling, music, and dance. It was Oh regret,regret! our school, our musical, social, and spiritual Hhat is wrongwith my glass of tea, sad education. amongall the happyglasses? Hhat is the matterwith my own glass, lost music was fresh,but because we com- in thought,lost, extendingits sadnessto bined it with the dialectand intonation me? of our parents,the resultwas something thatmany Moroccans-especially young And that was the beginning of our most people in the city-found familiar. famous song. EM: I'veheard there's an interestingstory EM: Almost from the beginning, people of borrowingbehind your most famous have been finding political messages in song, "Essiniya." your work.Was that ever your intention? OS: Well, there was a man named Ba OS: In the context of all the fear and Salem who used to sit and sing in the paranoia at the time, it's inevitable that street,begging for alms.He had been all one might see a political agenda in our around Casablanca,singing a particular lyrics. But we never tried to write polit- song-something about a tea tray.Peo- ical songs. They were songs of protest, ple tossed him a few coins, but nobody sure, but they were more than merely reallypaid any attentionto what he was political. saying,except for one man.This one guy EM:What kind of protest was it, then, lived in Hay al Mohammedi;he was sit- if it wasn't political? ting in his room and he heardthe beggar OS: Look, we were street kids from the singing,and the song kept going round poorest part of Casablanca,and we sang and roundin his head.So he got up and from that perspective. It's not an elevated went outsideto listen.And thatone man perspective, you see. It's not a perspective happenedto be my friendLa'arbi Batma, from which somebody can criticize the who was one of the originalfive mem- people who have power, in order to take bers of Nass el Ghiwane. it for himself. Because the man of the

144 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 street,the beggar,doesn't have any hope songs "Fine ghadi biya khouya" [Where of getting power, so he can be honest are you taking me, brother?] or "El madi about what he truly feels.And what he fatt" [The past is gone]. These were songs truly feels, or what we truly felt, didn't about the uncertainty and anxiety we haveto do with politics.I don't thinkwe felt in that moment, because everything were smart enough to criticize even if around us was changing so rapidly. The we had wantedto be political.Take the world of our parents was slipping away,

OmarSayyed

Lara Messersmith and we were headingto ... who knows ground? Between the old Morocco and where? the new one? EM: I'm sorry to harp on this,but Mo- OS:Yes, maybe. It was a reminder to look roccanslove to talk about the politics of around and notice that the husk was still the group.Maybe you didn'tput it there there. But, as you say,many people mis- deliberately,but many seemed to feel it. understood. It's widely believed that "El debbana EM: Did these misreadings disturb you? fi-l btana"[The flea in the sheep'shide] OS:You know, despite what you say, I is your most political song. A journalist don't think the average listener thought in Rabat once told me that you used to of us as a political group. The problem look up at the portraitof the king over that we had was with the intellectuals and the stagein the concert hallswhile sing- the critics; they're the ones who wanted ing the chorus:"We are living the lives us to talk about the deeper meaning of of fleasin a sheep'shide." our songs. And it's been like this for the OS: That's complete nonsense. Many last thirty years. I've tried to ignore it as people tried to find a politicalagenda in much as I can, because I don't have a po- that song, but they were totally missing litical agenda, so I don't have much to say the point, which is unfortunate,because to them. They never wanted to talk we were-in all honesty-trying to say about form, about the music itself: why somethingmuch more important.They do you sing it this way, why do you play thoughtwe were sayingthat the flea was it that way? They weren't interested. sick of living in the sheep'shide, that it EM: Has the group ever gotten into any wanted somethingelse. trouble with the authorities? EM: That'swhat I gathered,yes. OS: No, not really. Actually, the only OS: But thatwasn't it. Afterall, a sheep's time we were ever questioned was about hide is the naturalhome for a flea,right? our song "Ma hmouni" [My great sad- That'swhere it is supposedto live. How- ness]. It had no political message at all. ever,that is where it is supposedto live But because the chorus was a bit am- when the sheep is alive,not dead.We biguous it was about death, people were trying to say that this hide that the being lost to us, and as you know, by flea is living in was once a sheep. The changing a single vowel, the entire mean- hide remains,but the livingthing is gone. ing changes-everybody thought we We-Moroccans, our generation- were trying to make trouble. were living within the remainsof some- EM: About all the political kidnappings thing that no longer exists. at the time. EM: In other words ... OS: Right, but that wasn't the point.We OS: In other words, the world of our tried to explain, but they didn't under- grandparentswas disappearing-or had stand, and they kept giving us trouble. So disappearedalready-and as much as we in the end I just went to the police sta- thought that we were on our way to tion and said, "All right, look, the song is somethingbetter, we had alsolost some- about Palestine." thing enormous. EM: And they believed you? EM: So the song marked this middle OS:Yes. And it made it easier for every-

146 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 one, because that was a recognizable should have. It's not like it is in the political cause that people could rally United States.The Rolling Stones can behind.But I reallythink that that'sthe do whatever they want, say whatever kind of thinking that turns artistsinto they want.We can't,and what'smore, as cannibals.If you only sing about trage- an artistin Morocco,you don't have any dies andgreat causes, you end up waiting security. for a thousandstudents to be thrown in EM: Securityagainst what? prison,just so you can find the inspira- OS: Social security.The only thing an tion to perform. I don't believe in an- artist can depend on is his children. I thems. Artists aren't supposed to chase think that people here are awareof that after the events and tragedies of the fact, and they respectus for continuing world.Make an event of your own life, to find a way to make art despite the your own art. difficulties. EM: Moroccansoften referto you guys When the rooster crows in the morning, he as the Beatlesof Morocco.There maybe some truth to that, but I feel that the sings five notes. The notes are identical connection between Nass el Ghiwane to the ones in the pentatonic scale that all of and Morocco is unique-if anything, you mean more to your fans,in an odd Berber music is built on. No matter where way,than the Beatlesmeant to theirs. the rooster is, in Russia, in Bolivia, in China, OS:Well,there's a certainrespect.When you go out on the town with me, when he sings five notes. That's because the we get into a taxi, you'll see. Because rooster is Berber. when I get into a taxi, it's as myself,not as a star.Wegreet each other like family, EM: But surely you aren't doing so bad? even though we don't know each other, I mean, your group is the most success- becausein some way the taxi driverfeels ful band in the country. If anything, that we are famnily. you'd think that people would feel spite- EM:Yes,but there'ssomething else, too. ful for your success. It seems like your music is everywhere; OS: Not at all, for a couple of reasons. your fanscome from everyregion of this First of all, whatever success we've had, country, every social class, every age we haven't flaunted it.We're not out buy- group.How do you explainthat? ing airplanes like the rock starsin Amer- OS:You should probablyask the histo- ica. But the real answer to your question rians about that. I can't explain it my- is this: being the first successful band of self, except to say that there is a deep our kind in Morocco meant that we connection. So deep that it scaresme, were the first to be taken advantage of by sometimes.I ask myself,"Why do these piracy.In fact, the piracy industry in Mo- people respect Nass el Ghiwane in this rocco developed into what it is today be- way?"I have never thought that it was cause of us. So, don't be fooled by what purely because of our music. It's also you see in the cassette shops.We're not because they are aware that we don't getting a cent of most of it. But getting have the freedom of expressionthat we back to your original question, I think

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148 TRANSITION ISSUE 94 ...... 0..2,gA E....i i people respect us because they identified Omar Sayyed completely with what we were singing. Lara Messersmith EM: Maybe it's a Middle Eastern phe- nomenon. Millions of Arabs felt the same way about Umm Koulthoum. OS: But we didn't set out to be a truly Moroccan group.When we first started, we were playing with a guy named Ali al-Qadiri. He hoped that we would turn out to be a Western-style rock band. EM:You were originally called the New Dervishes, right? OS: Yes. Al-Qadiri was determined to turn us into a foreign band. He said, "You have to wear different trousers. And no shirts." I said, "What if it's cold?" He didn't think that was funny, but I was serious. "And what about the fat guys?" Even in those days, some of us were quite plump. "And the scars?"You know, it's not like it is in France, where all the singers are good-looking. So in the end, we decided against the whole approach. We wore regular clothes.We called ourselves Nass el Ghi- wane. And that was the end of it.

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