Race and the NFL: One Athlete’s Perspective on the

Civil Rights Movement

Interviewer: Ryan Brown Interviewee: Roger Brown Instructor: Mr. Whitman Date: February 17, 2015 Brown 2

Table of Contents

Statement of Purpose 3

Interviewee Release Form 4

Interviewer Release Form 5

Biography 6-7

“The Civil Rights Movement: The Role of African Americans in Professional Sports” 8-15

Interview Transcription 16-42

Interview Analysis 43-46

Works Consulted 47-49

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Statement of Purpose

This Oral History Project is about the Civil Rights Movement and how one African

American who played in the NFL recalls the Civil Rights movement in the United States.

In this interview, Roger Brown shares his story of playing professional football during a time of racism and discrimination. This interview is a primary source of one of the most important times in the history of the United States.

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Roger Brown Biography

Roger Brown was born in Surry County, V.A. He went to a segregated school and moved to Nyack, N.Y. when he was in the fifth grade. In Nyack, the racial climate was completely different. He attended an integrated school, where he was one of the only

African American students. His father worked at a hospital in Nyack. One of Mr.

Brown’s favorite things to do as a child was to go to his grandma’s house. He also enjoyed playing sports, such as kickball and soccer. Mr. Brown started playing football in high school, while maintaining a job at a local car wash. Mr. Brown graduated high school in 1955. Mr. Brown had many college interests and offers from big name colleges, but decided to attend Maryland State University, a historically black college, that fall.

Mr. Brown played football for Maryland State, now Maryland Eastern Shore, and played many great games with them. Mr. Brown not only played football during his college Brown 7 career, but also was the DJ for a local radio station. Mr. Brown was drafted by the Detroit

Lions without graduating from college in 1960. Mr. Brown played for the Lions for six years and the LA Rams for another three years. During his time as an NFL player, he went to seven pro bowls. Mr. Brown retired in 1970 to devote his time to his restaurants, located in Portsmouth, V.A.

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The Civil Rights Movement: The Role of African Americans in

Professional Sports

As Martin Luther King Jr. said, “Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed” (Martin Luther King Jr.). African

Americans were oppressed ever since they were taken from Africa and sold as slaves in colonial America, starting in 1619. The Portuguese were the first people to try to make

Africans slaves in America. Before the end of the 19th century, there were more than five times as many Africans than Americans and European immigrants in America. In 1808, the slave trade from Africa was outlawed, but the domestic slave trade in America flourished.1 Over the next 50 years, the slave trade almost tripled. The slave population reached nearly 4 million by 1860, and more than half of the slaves lived in southern states that produced cotton. The slaves won their freedom when the North won the Civil War in

1865, but they did not win equality. African Americans were still being treated poorly throughout the country, and this spurred the Civil Rights Movement. The Civil Rights movement started in 1954 with the Brown v Board supreme court case and ended in 1968 with the “Civil Rights Act.” Integrated professional sports played a part in the Civil

Rights Movement. Sports were another way to break the color barriers in the United

States. Therefore, to understand the Civil Rights Movement, one must examine the history of Africans in America and the role of sports in the racial struggle against the

1 Even though the Slave Trade had ceased in most of the rest of the world, slavery in the United States continued until 1865. Brown 9 backdrop of the concept of non-violent protesting and civil disobedience. It is also important to gain a first hand perspective from someone who experienced being a black, professional athlete first hand.

The History of Africans in America starts in the year 1619, when the Portuguese made a contract exporting Africans to America. Africans were taken to America to be used as slaves on farms, most of which were in the south. In December, Massachusetts becomes the first colony to recognize slavery as a legal institution in 1641 Body of

Liberties (Smith). Slavery continued, but in 1808, the slave trade from Africa was outlawed. However the internal slave trade within America flourished. Over the next 50 years, the slave trade almost tripled. There was less fertile land left because of how much tobacco was being farmed. The South had overused the land while growing tobacco and was facing a major economic crisis. In England, the textile industry was just starting to become lucrative, and they needed American cotton. The problem with cotton was that it was very hard to get the seeds out of the cotton fibers.

In 1793, a schoolteacher, Eli Whitney, created a mechanized device called the

Cotton Gin. The Cotton Gin removed seeds from raw cotton fiber. His idea spread around the south, and soon everybody was farming cotton. This transformation from tobacco to cotton only reinforced the South’s dependency on slave labor. The slave population reached nearly 4 million by 1860, and more than half of the slaves lived in southern states that produced cotton. Slaves made up one third of the South’s population. Most of the slaves lived on farms and plantations, and most of the slave masters owned less than 50 slaves. The slave masters wanted the slaves to rely solely on their master. One way that the masters accomplished this was by not letting the slaves learn how to read or write. Brown 10

Some slave masters rewarded obedient slave behavior with favors. Rebellious slaves were punished. Some slave owners took sexual liberties with their slaves. The slave master aimed to keep the slaves divided and less likely to start a rebellion against their master. Slave revolts did occur in the south, no matter how hard the slave masters tried to oppress them. Most of the slave revolts were not successful. “The slave revolt that most terrified white slaveholders was that led by Nat Turner in Southampton County, Virginia, in August 1931” (Staff, Slavery In America). About 75 runaway slaves murdered about

60 whites two days before the state army overwhelmed them.

During this time, most of the slaves were living in the south on farms. The North realized that the South was oppressing the slave population. Slavery was not needed in the North, and so the North argued for the freedom of the slaves. The new U.S.

Constitution started “counting each slave as three-fifths of a person” (Staff, Slavery In

America). In 1820, there was a big debate about the government’s ability to restrict slavery in Missouri. The compromise stated that Missouri was admitted into the union as a slave state, and Maine would be admitted as a free state, and all of the north western territories from Missouri's south border were free territories. The Emancipation

Proclamation took away the bulk of the labor forces for the confederacy, and put the international public opinion on the Union’s side. Almost 200,000 black soldiers joined the Union Army before the war ended, and almost 40,000 lost their lives. A little over

600,000 people lost their lives throughout the Civil War, which makes the American

Civil War the bloodiest battle in American history.

Slavery started being outlawed in the United States with Abraham Lincoln’s

Emancipation Proclamation. Lincoln had an opportunity after the victory at Antietam to Brown 11 give his Emancipation Proclamation, which he gave on September 22, 1862. He said that as of January 1, 1863 all slaves in states in rebellion against the United States shall be freed. The Thirteenth Amendment increased the representation of Southern States because they were counting African Americans as whole people, leaving the three fifths compromise meaningless. The Thirteenth Amendment says "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction" (Amendment 13). The Fourteenth Amendment was a radical measure in the context of the times, because it addressed citizenship for former slaves. Newly freed slaves had never before been granted significant political power. These two Amendments helped African Americans get their freedom and the rights that they deserved.

There were two key events that eventually led to the Civil Rights Movement.

During the pre-civil rights era, there were sets of laws called “Jim Crow laws.” Jim Crow laws were one way that the south oppressed African Americans. The laws did not allow

African Americans to use the same bathrooms, go to the same theaters, ride the same train cars, or even learn in the same classrooms as whites.

The other important event leading up to the Civil Rights Movement was Plessy v

Ferguson. Homer Plessy was jailed for sitting in the "white" car of the East Louisiana

Railroad on June 7, 1892. Plessy could have passed as a white, but under the Louisiana law, he was required to sit in the colored car even though he had a light complexion. The whites in Texas said that the “only grievance the Texas Negroes have is that the law passed by the retiring legislature requires them to ride in separate coaches on railroads”

(Crittenden Post). When Louisiana passed the Separate Car Act, which legally segregated Brown 12 train riders in 1892, an African American organization wanted to challenge the law in court. Plessy identified as African American and deliberately sat in the white section. This case showed that even in 1892 Mr. Plessy was willing to put his freedom on the line for the rights of many. The second key event was the Brown v Board of

Education. The Brown v Board case in the Supreme Court made the idea of "separate but equal" unconstitutional. This case was held in the Supreme Court in 1954. It led to the integration of schooling systems around the country. This decision made by the Supreme

Court set the stage for the Civil Rights Movement to take place, because these court cases spurred the colored students into action.

Student protests started when four freshmen from North Carolina Agricultural and

Technical College began a wave of student sit-ins on February 1, 1960. These sit-ins helped end segregation at southern lunch counters. After the first sit-in, the students promised that “double the number will take place at the counters the next day” (Sykes).

The original group of protesters became known as the Greensboro 4, and that night the word spread throughout campus about a sit-in the next day. The next morning, about thirty male and female black students walked into the lunch counter at Woolworth’s and sat at the counter. The students were dressed nicely and had brought their books and promptly began their studying. Every once in awhile a student would try to order, but the student was not served. They ended the sit-in with a prayer two hours later. This type of protest spread throughout the south. Young blacks were tired of being humiliated because of their race, and students in Atlanta placed advertisements in local newspapers, which explained their participation in the Civil Rights Movement in March 1960. One advertisement stated, "Every normal human being wants to walk the earth with dignity Brown 13 and abhors any and all proscriptions placed upon him because of race or color. In essence, this is the meaning of the sit-down protests that are sweeping the nation today"

(Mays, An Appeal For Human Rights). The U. S. Supreme Court made "separate but equal" unconstitutional in 1954. This led to national, as well as international, attention to the African Americans oppression in the south.

The Southern Christian Leadership Conference was created in 1957 to fight for the civil rights for African Americans. The leader of the group was Martin Luther King

Jr. Martin Luther King Jr. possessed unique conciliatory and oratorical skills, which led to his leadership of the boycott movement. King understood the bigger picture of the boycott and used non-violent tactics to accomplish his goals. The group had its first major success in 1963 with a large campaign in Birmingham, Alabama. There were large confrontations between nonviolent protesters and the police with clubs, fire hoses, and police dogs. Television played an important role at this point in the Civil Rights

Movement because it showed northerners exactly what colored people were dealing with in the south. This helped the southern African Americans gain the sympathy from the north. On December 1, 1955, African American protests began. Rosa Parks, in

Montgomery, Alabama, sat in a white bus seat on her way home from work. When a white person asked for her seat, she refused. This went against a southern custom that the white people got the front seats on the bus. Because of her refusal, she was put in jail. The bus boycotts lasted over a year. “ It focused black aspirations in the community, brought publicity and increased stature to local leaders, and promoted King's idea of nonviolent direct action” (Anderson). Local leaders not only used King’s tactic of non- violence but also promoted King's tactic of non-violent protest and direct action. This Brown 14 disruptive tactic demanded change. On March 9, King was turned back during a second march to the Pettus Bridge when the police blocked it. Later that night, a group of white people from Selma killed a northern white minister who had joined King in the protests.

The Reverend James Reeb's death led to a national outcry in 1965. On April 4, 1968,

Martin Luther King Jr. was shot. As Robert Kennedy said, “King dedicated his life to love and to justice between fellow human beings” (Kennedy). The death of Martin Luther

King Jr. left the nation reeling and forced change in the social system.

The National Football League (NFL) played an important role in the Civil Rights

Movement. They were one of the first sports programs to allow African Americans to play in it. Football was created in 1876. The first rules for American Football were written at the Massasoit Convention. The "Father of American Football," Walter Camp, first became involved with the game at this convention. The Allegheny Athletic

Association fielded a team, which consisted solely of professional players, making it the first professional team playing football, in 1896. The first African American player in the league, Charles Follis, signed a contract with the team "Shelby AC" in 1904. Kenny

Washington was the first official African American to play in the NFL in 1946. Charles

Follies did play professional football, but not in the NFL. The NFL has provided a professional sports option to young male African Americans since 1946.

The color line was being crossed not only on the football field, but in other sports too. Jackie Robinson, probably one of the most famous African American athletes of all time, was drafted into the MLB in 1947 for the Brooklyn Dodgers. Robinson led baseball clubs to help integrate southern towns where spring training was held, and these events were called the “Jackie Robinson Experiment.” Jackie Robinson helped to bring Brown 15 integration to baseball parks, hotels, and southern towns. Jackie Robinson led to the way to mass integration of professional sports.

African American athletes helped the Civil Rights Movement move forward. One instance of this was the “Jackie Robinson Experiment,” as mentioned above. While the

Civil Rights movement would have succeeded by itself, the African American athletes helped to expedite the process. As Roger Brown, an African American professional football player in the 1960s, says, “I like to think that I made a difference by being there and being respectable and being the type of person who would represent the people in general, not just black and not just white, but everybody, and I think that’s the important thing.” (Brown 42) This quote from Roger Brown shows that African American athletes tried to act in a manner that appealed to all people, and helped teach whites that African

Americans are just as civilized as whites are.

Overall, the integration of the NFL and other professional sports teams helped the

Civil Rights Movement succeed. Had professional sports not been integrated, there could have been a very different outcome of the Civil Rights Movement. As Roger Brown said, whites and coaches were “more concerned with winning. They didn’t care what color you were as long as you did it and you respected the team, the town, and your fellow players”(Brown 38). This quote shows that African Americans in sports helped whites accept them as equals. African Americans were on winning football teams and were respected by their white fans for the wins. Therefore, African American athletes played a crucial role in the American Civil Rights Movement, by being examples of concrete achievements on the playing field.

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Interview Transcription

Interviewee: Roger Brown Interviewer: Ryan Brown Location: Roger Brown’s Restaurant and Sports Bar Date: January 3, 2015

Ryan Brown - This is Ryan Brown and I am interviewing Roger Brown on the topic of the NFL during the civil rights movement as part of the American Century Oral History

Project. The interview took place on January third 2015, at Roger Brown’s (Restaurant) and Sports Bar located in Portsmouth, Virginia. This interview was recorded using

Audacity.

Ryan Brown – Hello Mr. Brown.

Roger Brown – Hi, How are you?

RAB (Ryan Brown) – I’m good, how are you?

RB (Roger Brown) – Great, great, now I like to call this Roger Brown’s Restaurant and

Sports Bar.

RAB – OK.

RB – So we want people to know they can eat, not just drink. Brown 17

RAB- Of course.

RB- OK.

RAB-OK.

RAB – First Question.

RAB – What was it like growing up in Virginia during the 1940s and 50s?

RB- Well, I can’t really answer that, I was born in Virginia and I left when I was five years old. I lived on a farm out in Surry, Virginia, Surry County, and it was hectic from what I remember, separate school, working on a farm, sitting in the back of everything, it was kind of handicapped.

RAB – What was like in the segregated schooling system?

RB- Well, when I lived in Virginia I was only in preschool, and that was like a two room school, with the upper grades and the lower grades. All you knew, and the only people there were black kids. And I never experienced what it was like to go to a mixed…

RAB – Right

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RB – School with white, black, Chinese everything, so for me, it was no different. It was just like getting up and brushing your teeth in the morning. It was something you did.

RAB – What was America like back then?

RB – America back then, I think we need to move a little forward because I was very young then and that was a situation where there was no real bad group, the only real bad group you heard about was like the Ku Klux Klan. There were no Panthers, no Jesse

Jackson, and all the rabble-rousers. It was just a situation were you just existed in your own little circle. There was nothing big dealish about it, when I lived in Virginia.

RAB – All right, well when you weren’t living in Virginia, where did you live?

RB - I left Virginia in the fifth grade and I lived in Newport News before I moved to a little town in New York State, and it was called Nyack, New York, and that was my first encounter with going to school with “Everybody.”

RAB – An integrated school?

RB – An integrated school, yeah, and for me, I was at that age where it didn’t bother me, and I accepted it. It was a great thing, I had a lot of white friends and we got along good.

We played together, and everything. And there was nobody that would tell you had to sit Brown 19 over here or you had to go here or you had to do certain things because of your color, it was just, that was it. You just played with your friends and you had fun.

RAB – What was on of your fondest childhood memories?

RB – Fondest childhood memories, I think, was going to grandma’s house. I remember I used to be on the safety patrol in high school, or in grandma school, And I just enjoyed that so much, that I could just help people and direct them. When to go across the street, when not to. And that was an exciting part, that authoritative aspect, but I enjoyed the people, I enjoyed sports, but I learned in the fifth grade in a little “Grandma” school in

Nyack, New York on how to play athletics. We played soccer, we did this, and everything came easy for me. I mean just the idea of soccer [I believe he means

“Kickball”] they throw the ball and you kick it, that was great. And then my fun was to try to kick it over the fence, and I did. They had to keep moving home plate back farther so I wouldn’t kick it over the fence. But I had so much fun at that. And after grandma school, I think after the 9th grade you go to high school. I was in the safety patrol, and they played football. I knew nothing about football, and I was in charge of the stadium, making sure everything was ok, and I watched the kids play football and it looked exciting. So then after that day I went and asked the coach if I could play. So that was the beginning of a whole new thing for me.

RAB – Right. What did your family do for work? [5:48]

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RB – My dad was a farmer in Surry, and we still have the farm out there, so raising peanuts and corn and stuff like that was the start. Then we moved up to Rockland

County, New York, which was very near Nyack. And he worked at a hospital, so he was a hospital attendant. So that was his career. He worked there until he retired, and then he passed on. I think it was a good job, it paid well and we had food on the table, that’s the only thing you can say. Then I learned to work very early. Because I wanted things and I knew he couldn’t get them for me, so I had to make money on my own, to buy the little things that I needed and that worked out good for me.

RAB – What did you do for work?

RB – Well, I washed cars at a gas station in Nyack , and I used to , believe it or not, the thing I’m very proud of, I used to wash Ben Heck. I don’t know if you would know that, but Ben Heck was a Broadway producer that lived in Nyack. He had a big limo and they would always bring it down, and he had a big black poodle, one of those big ones, I used to wash his car, and his chauffer would bring it down, and they tipped pretty good. I also used to wash Helen Hayes’ car. Some of the people that listen might remember Helen

Hayes. But I know also that I went to school, in high school, with her son, James

MacArthur. Who used to play on “Hawaii 5.0” He was Danno I believe, for those who remember TV way back. So that was my life as a kid growing up in Nyack, New York, I enjoyed playing football, I enjoyed the camaraderie. It was a situation in the school that I went to, after living in Virginia in an all black environment, and I moved to Nyack, and Brown 21 to give you an instant In Nyack High school, in my graduating class in 1955, out of 200 graduates, there were only four black kids.

RAB – Wow

RB – So you know, it was going from one aspect of your life where your in an all black environment, then you go into another one and you’re in an all white environment. So I lived a good life, and I’m still living it.

RAB – Did you face any barriers being an African American man in the United States?

RB – Oh yeah. There were a lot. I know that when I played for the Detroit Lion’s professional football, in the area which we had our training camp, which was Cranbrook,

Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, and they had some of the prettiest homes in the world. I wanted to live there; I wanted to buy a house. I wasn’t making very much money, but I had enough to buy a house, and they wouldn’t sell me a house, none of the real estate companies, they said “no”. Then we used to practice over in Dearborn, Michigan, and they had nice homes there. That’s another area where they said “no” you can’t buy. And we still had those kinds of problems, we still had those kinds of problems, but I overcame them. I said I can’t change the world, I’ll just exist in it. And I remember my first year I played with the Lions we ended up going to what they called the “Runner-up” bowl in

Miami. We went there and on team, my first year as a rookie, there were only three black players on the whole Detroit Lion team. And when we went down, I think we went to Brown 22 play the Steelers that year in 1960. It didn’t dawn on me until afterwards, but the team went and stayed at the “Ivanhoe”? on Miami Beach. Dick "Night Train" Lane, me, Danny

Lewis were taken over to the black section of Miami and were checked into a little motel.

And the thing I’m very proud of, the next day the bus picked up all the players from the

“Ivanhoe” and we were going over to Dade County to practice and it came by the little dinky motel that we stayed in, and all the guys, Jim Gibbons, Gale Cogdale, they all said,

“What the hell are you guys doing over here?” And we said “Well this is where they put us. They said that black people can’t stay over on Miami Beach.” We went to practice, and after practice, all of these white players called the coach, who was George Wilson, and had a meeting right there, with all of us there. They said “Coach we won this honor coming to Miami to play in this bowl game. We won it as a team, and we should stay together as a team, as we have all year. And they said “we are not playing, we’re going home.” Later that night, we moved over on the beach [laughter]. So I guess it just goes to show you that if everybody just stands up for what’s right, and just put away what’s wrong, I think that this whole world today would be a better place to live.

RAB – I agree. Who were your role models in life or in football while you were growing up? [12:34]

RB – Well I didn’t have that many in football, but I had the ones that were around me. I really appreciated the guy that was my high school football coach. That was a guy who played at Syracuse University. He never played pro ball, but his name was Grisbouski.

And he was the greatest guy in the world. My father, as I said, was at the hospital, and he Brown 23 was there constantly. The coach really looked after me, made sure that I got home ok, made sure I had clothes, made sure I went to sleep on time. That was a role model, and I really appreciated that. The other people, my dad, was a role model, because he worked so hard, to give us, my brother and I, what we needed, as little and small as it was. We existed, and thanks to him, he looked out for us. But he also instilled in the two of us the importance of taking care for ourselves. Don’t wait around for someone to give you something, go get it, make it happen. That was motivational.

RAB – How did you end up at Maryland Eastern Shore for college?

RB – Well, I had letters from just about every college around in high school saying they would like to offer me a scholarship. I ended up getting letters from Duke University, and then when they found out I was black, they rescinded that, they said no, and I ended up with Maryland State (AKA Maryland Eastern Shore) because there was a coach, and his name was Earl Banks. He was a little guy, but he played at Iowa, and he somehow heard about me, came up to Nyack and talked to me. And I said, he is about the only one that has spent that much attention on me, nobody else spent that much attention to me, and none of the other schools came to visit me. So I ended up going there, and that school was a tiny little thing. It had 250 students.

RAB – That’s about the size of your graduating class! [15:32]

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RB – That’s right, but it was a small school, and it was an all black school. Its one of the historic black universities and college. That’s in Princess Anne Maryland. I had the opportunity while I was there to play with a guy named Johnny Sample, Sherman

Plunkett, Emerson Busier, and Art Shell, all went to Maryland State. I had a good time there, and while there I did the same thing, because I had to do things in Nyack. I had to make money for myself, so I ended up giving record hops, doing all kinds of little music things. And while I was a Maryland State, I got my own little radio show in Salisbury,

Maryland. I was the DJ and used to have a radio show every Saturday. I did record hops all over the Delmarva Peninsula.

RAB – What was your radio show about?

RB – It wasn’t a talk show, it was music. It was rock ’n’ roll, things like that.

RAB – So you did earn a scholarship?

RB – Yes. That is the only way I could have gone to school. If I hadn’t gotten a scholarship, by then I probably would have owned probably seven or eight car washes.

But I would have done something, I wouldn’t have just sat around and say “oh worry me”

RAB – You already touched on this, but what was the racial climate like in college?

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RB – In college, it was not big deal. It was bad sometimes when we would leave Princess

Anne and ride up to go to a movie in Salisbury, which is sixteen miles away. And when you went to movies back then, for the colored they used to have a special section. That you could only sit up in that section. It was always up in the balcony, it was a little square place. Most restaurants were segregated, so if you wanted a sandwich, you could buy it there and leave, but you couldn’t sit there and eat it. So that was the racial climate, and I remember when I was a kid we used to come back from Nyack to Virginia, and there was no tunnel. The Chesapeake Bay tunnel was non – existent then. So we had to take the ferry, they called it "Kiptopeke Ferry" and that would take down from eastern Virginia down along the Chesapeake Bay. And if you were of color, then you would have to stay in the back of the ferry, and you couldn’t get out and walk to the bow of the ferry, you had to stay in the stern. So those were things that you accepted, and eventually they changed.

RAB – What was your football experience like at college?

RB – Well it was really good, I was the best, well one of the best, and we never flew anywhere, we were always on a bus. A school bus, so uncomfortable, Oh god. We had to play teams like North Carolina A&T, North Carolina College, Raleigh, Virginia State,

Virginia Union, Hampton, Norfolk State, But when you came to play them you had to get on a bus and drive. It was good playing, but that was it, no biggie. I enjoyed it, and the rivalries that we had with those schools really stood out. In fact I came to Portsmouth, when I was at Maryland state, in what was an annual “Fish Bowl”, and it was up at the Brown 26

Frank D. Lawrence Stadium. I don’t know if you remember that or if you were old enough to remember it’s where I.C. Norcom is now. Because I.C. Norcom used to be way down on Fredrick Boulevard. They tore the stadium down and rebuilt the school there. I played there, going back into the middle 1950s against Virginia State, and we beat them so bad that they don’t want to play us ever again.

RAB – What degree did you graduate with from college? [20:50]

RB – I didn’t graduate. I spent 4 years in college, and I learned what I needed. I learned to survive. I got a decent education while I was there, but I just didn’t get the sheepskin.

Today, it bothers me, it bothered me then, but when I was in college the Detroit Lions drafted me #4. In my yearbook from high school, where they have your picture and your ambition, I put down that I wanted to be a professional football player. So I did that, and I was one of the best. So there you go, and I thought it was good.

RAB – What was the process for being drafted into the NFL?

RB – The process is that first of all the Lions, and other teams, will send their scouts down during the year to watch you play. I know the Lions sent a guy, Will Robinson, to come down to watch me at Maryland, and I knew he was there, so I just showed myself.

Oh I went all out. I had one heck of a game. I guess he went back to the Lions and said,

“Draft him.” The thing that is exciting is that I was drafted as the number four-draft choice that the Lions got from the Pittsburg Steelers. For trading Bobby Lane, I don’t Brown 27 know if you’ve ever heard of him, but Bobby Lane was one of the top quarterbacks in the NFL going back in the 1950s. I was drafted, and I had an opportunity, being drafted, to play in the college all-star game. That was a group of all stars in the college ranks,

Michigan State, anybody from the big ten, the pack eight, players from all over the united states were summoned to play in that game. We played against the Baltimore Colts that year, but you always played the team that just won the championship, because they were the outstanding team. That year the Baltimore Colts won, so we had to play them. It was good, we always played that game in Chicago, on Soldiers Field. It was quite an honor.

But I will also throw out, and it seems like the theme is the racial situation and how things happened. I know when I was with the Lions we had those same problems of segregated areas, couldn’t buy homes here, couldn’t live here, I remember in 1963 (1968 is when Dr. King was actually assassinated) Dr. King was assassinated. I remember the riots, we were up in Cranbrook, which is Bloomfield Hills Michigan, which is a little bit north of Detroit, you could see the skyline at night glowing red with the fires, and all of that crap, and then after that the MLK assassination, the Kennedy assassination was just a chance for everybody to show their butts, and burn stuff up, and steal TVs and break windows. And they were saying “The people are hungry” well what are you gonna do, eat a TV? So you know it bothered me, and I was glad when that was over.

RAB – What were your first thoughts when you were being drafted? [25:28]

RB – I didn’t know all of the teams in the National Football League, but at the time there were only 12. I went to the movie the night that they had the draft, and when I came back Brown 28 to campus, they said “You were drafted by the Detroit Lions.” I said “Great.” Then a few weeks later a rep from the Lions came down to talk to me about a contract. Back then you couldn’t have an agent, you couldn’t have anybody. It was just you and the team, and they knew more than you did. So they drafted me and gave me a whopping $8,000 a year.

That wasn’t money then, and it isn’t money now.

RAB – What was your experience like at your first training camp with the Lions?

RB – Well my first training camp, and remember I told that first I had to play in the college all stars game which was in Chicago, and the four of us that were with the Lions came back on a Friday and we had a Saturday exhibition game. We played, and didn’t even know the plays. It was exciting. I have never had a doubt about my ability, even as a little kid, I knew that I was strong enough, well enough, to accomplish what I wanted to do, and that was make the team. I made the team, and it was great to be with guys that you saw in the newspaper, people that you read about, you see them in sports illustrated, and here I am, playing with these guys. I said “there is no way I’m going home and not making this team”. I made the starting team that year.

RAB – What would you say is the hardest thing about playing in the NFL?

RB – The hardest thing for me was, well I can’t really think of anything that was hard because I excelled at what ever I tried, and I accomplished. I was the fastest big guy playing the game. Today, these guys are almost 400 pounds and their bellies are hanging Brown 29 over. When I played I was the biggest person in the NFL. I played at about 300 pounds.

And if I went over 285 then I got fined $10 a pound. Today, they don’t care what you weigh, but I was a little ahead of my time. I still could run a 10 flat 100 yard at 300 pounds. I was faster than any other lineman in the league, and I could run down a lot of halfbacks that were running. But everybody said “No, you can do better if you’re ten pounds less.” So I was fined and I as told that I had to get the weight off. Like I said, I was just ahead of my time. You look at a lot of guys today and they are playing around

390-400 pounds, and when they retire they can’t walk anymore, and that’s too bad.

RAB –What was the racial climate like in the NFL? [29:50]

RB – It was great, in my estimation, I know there was a young man who went to

Washington State, he and I were rookies together, and his name was Gail Cogdill. We became very good friends in the college all-star camp because we knew we were going to the same team and so we kind of bonded together. Today we are still the best of friends, and he lives out in Seattle Washington. We communicate over Facebook quite a bit. We called each other brother, but that was a situation where we came to the Lions in 1960 as rookies. We really wanted to be roommates, but they put me with another black guy, and

Gail with another white guy. So it was almost like, (the team saying) “they don’t know what they want” so that was the climate in the NFL, and in the early years, for me, there was camaraderie, with the team when you are on the field and you need to protect each other. As far as buds, going out at night, hanging out, having a beer, going here, going there, it was segregated. Brown 30

RAB – So your relationship differed from on the field to off the field?

RB – Yeah, sure, I mean if I’m on the field with you then we are together, we’re buds, if someone takes a cheap shot on you, I’m gonna get him and vice a versa. We used to go out to an Italian restaurant, eat and drink wine, and have fun, but it slowly evolved into a comfortable environment. When it first started, you didn’t do that. Eventually it became a thing, where I think we showed each other that, “Hey I’m ok, I bleed red when I get cut” and it was a good friendship.

RAB – What was your first game in the NFL like?

RB – I didn’t know what to do. They didn’t say, “ Roger we like your playing, and agility we want you to start.” They didn’t say that, they just put me in the game. And I played, and I kept playing, and then all of the sudden I’m ready to sit down now. It was a situation where they said, “Where’s Roger?” “He’s sitting on the bench” “Well get him back in the game” and I guess I made the team. Nobody told me how it would be when you make the team, when you’re starting. Then they started reading the Fearsome

Foursome, Alex Karras, me, Darris and Sam. The coach would always read the starting line, and the back. We were called the Fearsome Foursome in 1960 in Detroit. Then there were the four backs, you had linebackers and two outline linebackers, then the deep backs. They would say the fearsome foursome and the four L’s. Now the four L’s were

Dick “Night Train” Lane, Gary Lowe, Yale Lary, and one more, but I can’t think of his Brown 31 name right now, but his last name started with an “L”. They had the foursome and the four L’s and that was it, go get them.

RAB – Did you ever experience any racism on your team? [35:00]

RB – How severe? Calling you the N word and all that or segregating themselves from you?

RAB – Segregating.

RB – Some were like that, but in my early years, when practice was over you went your way and they went their way. It wasn’t like “Hey, lets go grab a beer down at Joe’s Bar” it wasn’t that. Now it is, but it wasn’t then. Gail and I used to do things that made them think, “What are they doing? What going on?” But we were buds then.

RAB – Did you ever experience any racism from your fans?

RB – Not really. In Detroit we used to play at Briggs Stadium or Tigers Stadium, and the bench was so far away that you had nothing. When you would leave everybody would want an autograph, whatever color you were. I never experience any because I never really looked for it.

RAB – What was Detroit like during the 1960s? Brown 32

RB – In the 60s Detroit was a fun town. The auto industry was at its peak. It had a lot of nice places. The town was sectioned out into sections. It was fun. We would get together and have our meetings. Every time we had a game in Detroit, and the game was on

Sunday, Saturday we had to check into a hotel so that we could have a meeting and the coaches could make sure you’re going to bed on time. We would always meet down there and have a little meeting. Then we went over to a theater, which was a theater for people who owned movie theaters in Detroit; they could come and review movies. We would go and watch a movie, and we would run like hell from the hotel to this theater to make sure we got a good seat. After the movie was over, you would have about an hour to get back into your room.

RAB – How aware or involved were you in the civil rights movement?

RB – I was aware and involved in college. I sat in on some lunch counter sit-ins back in

Maryland. We got sick of sitting up in a small box when we went to the movies. We had a lot of students that were bi-racial, and they looked as white as anybody else, and we would have them just sit all over the place. And the ushers would tell us we couldn’t sit there and we would say, “I have a ticket”. We slowly changed it. We would go back up, but as soon as they left we would go back down. We had fun with it.

RAB- Did you participate in any marches or protests?

Brown 33

RB – No. It’s like I said, I did some lunch counter sit-ins down in Maryland, but I didn’t do any marching. I was playing football, and before that I was in college. We couldn’t get away from college, and there wasn’t that much marching in Maryland.

RAB – What were your thoughts on civil rights leaders like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X? [40:20]

RB – Dr. King, I have all the pride in the world for, I thought he was amazing. As far as

Malcolm I didn’t really follow him, I didn’t really like violence, and it seemed like he was just the opposite of Dr. King. Today, I can’t stand Sharpton, I'm not that excited about Jesse Jackson, and I know when I lived in Detroit and I had restaurants there, I used to help with operation breadbasket. We used to help Jesse, but I don’t like trying to force somebody to like you. That’s the way I see Sharpton, and that’s the way I see

Malcolm X, but then again he tried to get his own religion. They all in their own little way, whether they planned it or not, have helped me and a lot of other black people. I don’t think I would have this (looks around the restaurant) if I was still sitting in the back of the bus. So there is some good in all of it.

RAB – What was your fondest moment playing for the Lions?

RB – I remember some games, I know in 1962, Detroit always used to play Green Bay in

Detroit on Detroit Thanksgiving Day. That game that we played, that was one of my Brown 34 greatest games. I ended up with 7 sacks on Bart Starr and back then they didn’t keep count, but I had 7 in one game.

RAB – I believe this is a picture of that game (pulls out action shot of roger brown playing in the “Thanksgiving Day Massacre”)

RB – Yeah that looks like it.

RAB – The Thanksgiving Day Massacre

RB – Yeah that’s what they call it. I know I tackled Bart 7 times, and we got him all together 11 times. There are some years that I know when I got my evaluation from the team, I averaged anywhere from 17-20 sacks a year but we didn’t keep track. Now they try to give the credit to a guy that played for the Kansas City Chiefs and he had seven Brown 35 sacks, but that was when they were recording. I told them to go back and count them, because that was the only game played that year, that day, and it was nationally televised, everybody has a copy. I told them to go count them, but it didn’t work.

RAB- How did you end up being traded from the Lions to the LA Rams?

RB – Well it was a thing that George Allen, who was the Ram coach, wanted me. And I played pretty darn good with the Lions, but I have found out since that Joe Schmitt at the time was the coach. And Joe Schmitt that year, in 1966 going into 67 because they needed a quarterback. Plum was hurt and they traded Plum. The Rams gave up 3 draft choices for me, but Joe Schmitt wanted a quarterback and high draft choice. So I got a 1st

2nd and a 3rd (draft choices) plus a quarterback. So that’s why they traded me, but I like to think it was for other reasons. I used to think that my wife at the time was white. I was thinking that’s why they traded me. I found out later that they needed a quarterback. Of the guys they drafted, one was Charlie Sanders, who was a tight end, who made the Hall of Fame, and Dexter Bussey and another guy. So they made out ok. I made out ok because I got to go play with Deacon and Merlin.

RAB- The second Fearsome Foursome. [46:21]

RB – That’s right, and I’m the only guy who has played on two.

RAB – What was it like being selected and to play in the Pro-bowl? Brown 36

RB- That was a lot of fun we got to go to LA and play in the Coliseum. The fun thing was that you bring some of your players with your from your team. Usually 3-4 guys from your team would come. Then you played with or you played against the players that you had played all year. Some of the players from the Rams, from the Colts, from the

49ers, and you played and they would bring different coaches in to coach that squad. One year I had George Halas, one year Vince Lombardi. So it was a great thing and to play with some of the people that you played against so long and you had respect for. It was an honor, it was something that I looked forward to, and I played in 7.

RAB – Overall, what was it like playing for the Rams?

RB – The Rams was fun, number 1 playing with playing with that group of guys that we called the Hollywood beach boys, and to go and play with them and the coach, George

Allen, and to be in Hollywood, that was great. And the weather! I know my first year there it was December and I was there waiting for snow, and it didn’t come. I enjoyed being out there, and we had a chance with Rosey Grier was singing, and we got on all kinds of shows, Bing Crosby, we were on just about every show singing. And we got a chance to go and watch (bangs table with hand) John Wayne do the Green Berets. And we went to a lot of studios, and we saw a lot of people we got in on movies and we did a little bit of everything. It was fun.

Brown 37

RAB – In what ways, if any, did the civil rights movement impact the racial climate of the NFL?

RB – Well I feel in all sincerity that the NFL sped up the Civil rights act. Because of football it came to fruition.it was great. Every team and every fan wanted a wining team; they didn’t care what color you were. Those teams blended in very good.

RAB- How aware or involved were you with other historical moments of the 1960s, such as the Vietnam War? [50:28]

RB – Well you know the Korean War, the Vietnam War, personally I wish to God we could do without wars. I know a lot of players ended up leaving the teams and joining up

(with the Army). Now North Korea is trying to start up something. It’s almost like this country and every other country is always at war, it I guess they always will be.

RAB – What were your thoughts on the political leaders of the time: Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon?

RB – Well I liked Kennedy. I thought Johnson did an amazing job taking over after the assassination of President Kennedy. Nixon I thought was adequate, kind of a nutcase, but he did ok.

Brown 38

RAB – Did the league make any demands or establish any rules for African American players?

RB – No, they didn’t. The only thing I didn’t like after I went to camp after my 1st or 2nd year was that I had to give up my motorcycle.

RAB – Was it because you were an African American?

RB – No, no it was because they didn’t want me to get hurt! (Heartily laughs). No there was nothing. I think that the average coach, the average owner, was more concerned with winning. They didn’t care what color you were as long as you did it and you respected the team, the town, and your fellow players. You didn’t go out and act the fool, so to speak.

RAB – What was a highlight for you as a Ram?

RB – A highlight was playing with the team, playing with a lot of players. I wished I could have ended my career with the Lions, just to stay with one team. For me, I look at going from team to team as not being a good player. If you were, I don’t think a team would be getting rid of you, unless they are getting a whole bunch of money and players, like they did we me going out with the Rams. If I had to go out with any other team I enjoyed going out with the Rams, they had a lot of great players.

Brown 39

RAB – Why did you decide to retire in 1970?

RB – In 1970 I decided, because I could have played another four to five years, I decided because I had started restaurants in Chicago, I had 8. At the time I only had four, this was in ’69. I told the coach I’m only making 30,000 dollars a year with the Rams, and my restaurants were kicking in a little over a million and a half. I told the coach that it was a business decision, it has nothing to do with the team, I wish I could play, but I can work restaurants the rest of my life but I can’t play football, so I retired.

RAB – What restaurants did you own?

RB – I had restaurants in Chicago. I had my own recipe, the chicken was good. I had a total of 8 scatter all over Chicago. I eventually sold those and went with McDonalds. And from McDonalds I went from Chicago to Peoria, IL, to St. Louis Missouri, and from St

Louis I went to San Diego. And from San Diego I left and became an operator. I had 3

McDonalds here in Virginia. One was just down the street, one on the Shipyard, and another one over in Norfolk. Then I got out of them and became my own. I paid off that restaurant. And after I paid it off I thought good, more money in the bank, but they said no, you need to rebuild this because we want to move it 8 ft. I said damn. So I bought this building, and I sold the other one. This used to be a Woolworths, and I opened my restaurant in 2000.

Brown 40

RAB – If you hadn’t been drafted to the Lions, or any NFL team, do you think you would have gone into the restaurant business right after college? [56:57]

RB – I was in the restaurant business when I was in high school. I also used to do record hops for the high school, and I sold hot dogs, and other little things, I made pretty good money because it was just me. I did the same thing in college. I did record hops, got my own radio show. So I don’t know I might have been in restaurants, but I know what ever I tried at I would be successful. I would give it all I had.

RAB – Where were you when you heard Dr. King died?

RB – In training camp, in 1963 and I was in Bloomfield Hill, Michigan in Detroit.

RAB - How did you react?

RB- Like everybody else I thought it was sad that we could lose a good man who was good for both sides. I was saddened from it. I didn’t think about the impact it would have on everybody. I just thought it was something.

RAB – Over your entire NFL career, what was your fondest memory?

RB – My kids. I can’t think of anything else. I had a lot of good games, a great career.

I’m now 77. I’m glad to be here, and I was glad to play in the NFL. Now I have to give Brown 41 you something to make your head swim, I have 9 kids, 15 grand kids, and 5 great grandkids. They are all healthy and my kids are doing well. They are doctors, and they are doing ok.

RAB – How do you think the NFL has changed since your playing days?

RB – Well it has gotten a hell of a lot bigger. When I started there were 12 teams today there are 32 teams. They are paying a whole lot more money than they did when I played.

It is an honor to play for it. I know that right now I look at a lot of the things that are pending with the concussions and the other things and I know that they have been able to use our personalities and names without paying us. I’m not sure how that’s going to change in the future, I know that we had a lawsuit against them that we got a few bucks from, but it is nice to be remembered.

RAB – Is there anything that I missed that would help me better understand this subject?

[1:00:000]

RB – No it’s just in summation that it was a great honor to have played in the NFL. I have made lots of great friends. I like to think, and I want everybody to know I was one of the founders, because I brought a lot of changes to the national football league, we accomplished a lot. And made it a much better sport, that people can earn a good living from, and everybody associated with it can. A lot of players today make money form the commercials they make, the endorsements they make, the larger salaries they make, I Brown 42 only hope that they learn to control their money and not waste it. I think a lot of them are going bankrupt once they retire because they are wasting all of their money.

RAB – What kind of changes did you bring to the NFL?

RB- The changes that I brought to it was #1 the race card, when I played in 1960 there were 3 blacks on the whole team, and there were some teams that had no black people on it, like the redskins and some of the others. I like to think that I made a difference by being there and being respectable and being the type of person who would represent the people in general, not just black and not just white, but everybody, and I think that’s the important thing.

RAB- Thank you so much for sharing your reflections with me

RB – You bet

Brown 43

Analysis Paper

History is a necessity for humanity, and as Edmund Burke is credited with saying,

“Those who do not know history are destined to repeat it” (Burke). History is the study of past people, places, and events. History is important because modern day people can learn from their elders. They can learn what worked in the past, and what did not work.

Historian Edward Carr says, “History… is a unique opportunity of recording, in the way most useful to the greatest number, the fullness of the knowledge. Oral history is a type of history. It is when a historian records an interview with an individual”(Carr). Oral history has many strengths and weaknesses. Oral history is a good source of primary information, but it is also bad because the information could also be biased. The information could be biased by the interviewee’s memory or their pre-existing biases. As

Donald Ritchie says, “Memory is the core of Oral History, from which meaning can be extracted and preserved. Simply put, oral history collects memories and personal commentaries of historical significance through recorded interviews” (Ritchie 1). The

Oral History Project is an excellent example of convergence of evidence. The convergence of evidence is when a historian compiles facts from multiple sources into one source. In this oral history interview, I interviewed former Detroit Lion and LA Ram defensive tackle, Roger Brown. I interviewed Roger Brown on the topic of civil rights and the NFL. The oral history interview allowed Roger Brown to give his first hand accounts of the events of his lifetime thus far. He was able to tell his story to future generations, even some parts that he might not think are important. If Roger Brown had not been interviewed, then some parts of his story might have been lost forever. Without this interview, Roger Brown might just be remembered for his football accomplishments, Brown 44 not the rest of his life. This oral history interview of Roger Brown holds important historical value in relation to the civil rights movement and the NFL because he gives insight on key events from this era that are not often found in textbooks.

The oral history interview with Roger Brown holds important historical value.

Roger Brown faced segregation many times throughout his lifetime but made an interesting point. When asked about racism faced while playing in the NFL from fans, he said that there wasn’t any. He said, “When you would leave, everybody would want an autograph, whatever color you were” (Brown 32). This quote gives current day historians an different perspective of the time. Darrell Green, a former professional football player for the Washington Redskins, said that after his last game he, “came back out for over an hour and walked around the stands, and shook hands and signed autographs” (Green 31).

These two primary sources are proof that many fans did not see black and white; they saw football players that they looked up to and respected. Many white people thought that blacks and whites should be separated, but seemed to be perfectly content with their

NFL team having blacks and whites on it. This idea is thought-provoking because the same people who fought to keep their white children in separate schools were cheering on a man of color, just to win a football game. Future oral historians might consider interviewing fans, Caucasian and African American, from the civil rights era, in order to get another perspective.

Roger Brown believes that he helped bring the civil rights movement to an end.

This notion arguably the most important statement he made during his interview. He believes that he showed that he was just as good, if not better, than any other defensive tackle in the NFL. “I like to think that I made a difference by being there and being Brown 45 respectable and being the type of person who would represent the people in general, not just black and not just white, but everybody, and I think that’s the important thing”

(Brown 42) . Roger Brown was one of three black people to play on the Detroit Lions in

1960, and one of the few black people to play in the NFL that year. Many teams did not have any blacks on them. The idea that Roger Brown presents in this statement is of historical value because he thought that acting responsibly in front of a large audience contributed to changing people’s perceptions.. It can show future generations that individuals might not need to do long marches to prove a point. If individuals act and behave like equals, and they prove that they should be equals, then people will start treating others with equality.

Roger Brown was not only changing the racial climate through football, but also by protesting. During his time in college, in the 1950s, he participated in multiple sit-ins at local lunch counters and movie theaters. Modern day historians only study lunch counter sit-ins when they study sit-ins. Roger Brown made an interesting statement in his interview that there were different sections in movie theaters for whites and blacks, and that he and his college friends had sat in the white section, even if they were not supposed to. Roger Brown said that they would tell the ushers that they had bought tickets, and that they were going to sit where they wanted to. Roger Brown said that usually the usher would make them move back up to the black section, but as soon as the usher left, they would go back down to the white section to watch the movie (Brown 33). It is historical accounts like this that show modern historians the different ways in which segregation was fought. Brown 46

Roger Brown described many instances of segregation. One example of this is when he was traveling down to Florida with the Detroit Lions. He and the other black players had to stay in the black part of Miami, while the white players got to stay on the beach. Even though Roger Brown did not experience racism from his fans, he was still subjected to it. While the NFL was moving toward integration on several teams at this time, the MLB, Major League Baseball, was quite the opposite. The MLB had dealt with race in a very different way than the NFL had. Instead of integration, “Negro” Leagues were formed. The National Negro League was founded in 1920 and was closed in 1931.

As Negro League pitcher Ernest Burke says, "There’s a Negro League because they cannot play in the Majors on account of the color of their skin" (Burke 22). Integration, segregation, and racism varied by sport, and it is important to interview individual players to find out about their experiences at the time.

Throughout this oral history interview, I have learned that everyone has his or her own account of a situation, and every account should be known. I think that oral history is crucial because it can change people’s opinions of historical events. I learned that oral history is important because it can help historians learn about events that many textbooks do not talk about. This project made me realize that some parts of oral history are easy and fun, like interviewing primary sources. On the other hand, some aspects of oral history are tedious, like the context paper. This experience has helped me understand various tasks that an oral historian must do in order for future historians to understand the past. Overall, oral history is important because it provides more information and various perspectives about key events from history.

Brown 47

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