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Vol. 795 Monday No. 243 28 January 2019 PARLIAMENTARYDEBATES (HANSARD) HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICIAL REPORT ORDEROFBUSINESS Questions Home Care Workers.......................................................................................................907 Ofcom: RT News Channel .............................................................................................909 Sexual Offences Legislation............................................................................................911 Florence Nightingale: Bicentenary .................................................................................914 Brexit: Parliamentary Approval of the Outcome of Negotiations with the European Union Motion to Take Note.......................................................................................................916 Grand Committee Offensive Weapons Bill Committee (1st Day) ..............................................................................................GC 149 Lords wishing to be supplied with these Daily Reports should give notice to this effect to the Printed Paper Office. No proofs of Daily Reports are provided. Corrections for the bound volume which Lords wish to suggest to the report of their speeches should be clearly indicated in a copy of the Daily Report, which, with the column numbers concerned shown on the front cover, should be sent to the Editor of Debates, House of Lords, within 14 days of the date of the Daily Report. This issue of the Official Report is also available on the Internet at https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-01-28 The first time a Member speaks to a new piece of parliamentary business, the following abbreviations are used to show their party affiliation: Abbreviation Party/Group CB Cross Bench Con Conservative DUP Democratic Unionist Party GP Green Party Ind Lab Independent Labour Ind LD Independent Liberal Democrat Ind SD Independent Social Democrat Ind UU Independent Ulster Unionist Lab Labour Lab Co-op Labour and Co-operative Party LD Liberal Democrat LD Ind Liberal Democrat Independent Non-afl Non-affiliated PC Plaid Cymru UKIP UK Independence Party UUP Ulster Unionist Party No party affiliation is given for Members serving the House in a formal capacity, the Lords spiritual, Members on leave of absence or Members who are otherwise disqualified from sitting in the House. © Parliamentary Copyright House of Lords 2019, this publication may be reproduced under the terms of the Open Parliament licence, which is published at www.parliament.uk/site-information/copyright/. 907 Home Care Workers [28 JANUARY 2019] Home Care Workers 908 House of Lords Baroness Burt of Solihull (LD): My Lords, the Minister says that the law is clear, but the problem lies Monday 28 January 2019 with its enforcement, as the noble Lord, Lord Wills, 2.30 pm has said. Too many home care workers get confusing pay packets which can obscure the fact that they are Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Chelmsford. not being paid for travel time. Could it not be made a legal requirement that employers separate out travel Home Care Workers time and make pay packets clearer on the different Question elements of pay? 2.37 pm Lord Henley: The noble Baroness is right to draw Asked by Lord Wills attention to transparency in pay packets, and I can To ask Her Majesty’s Government what new give an assurance that legislation will take effect in steps they will take to ensure that home care workers April of this year for the first time entitling all workers are paid the national living wage for travelling to receive a pay slip. Where a worker is paid with a between appointments. reference to time worked, the pay slip will now also detail the number of hours worked. TheParliamentaryUnder-Secretaryof State,Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Henley) Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con): My Lords, I (Con): My Lords, the law is clear: workers are entitled have personal experience of this through someone we to the minimum wage for time spent travelling from helped eventually to get citizenship here—it took 10 years one client to another. The Government are committed and was supported by other Members of this House—and to enforcing minimum wage legislation. Workers who she now works as a carer. I asked her about this issue think they might be underpaid should first speak to following the court ruling that they should be paid for their employer. Alternatively, they can call the ACAS travel between appointments, and she said that the helpline for advice and referral to HMRC for possible issue had never been brought up. I wrote her a letter enforcement action. pointing out that this was position, and she handed it into the agency that she works for.The agency immediately Lord Wills (Lab): I am grateful to the Minister for tore it up and said, “You have no right to discuss our that reply. I am glad he recognises that there is a affairs with anyone else”. To this day, she has still not problem, and I hope he agrees with me that more had a penny for travel, even though most of her work needs to be done to address it. It is a disgrace that is one hour at this place and then half-an-hour’s walk UNISON has estimated that over 50% of home care to the next. She is playing a valuable role, but the workers do not receive any payment for travelling ruling of the court is absolutely ignored. between appointments. The National Audit Office has estimated that up to 220,000 such workers do not receive the national minimum wage. Clearly, something Lord Henley: My Lords, I did not want to comment is going wrong and more needs to be done. The on any individual case, but what my noble friend has Government might be able to look at the way the Care said sounds completely and utterly wrong. As I have Quality Commission regulates home care firms and to said, the law is clear. I recommend that my noble insist that it scrutinises all standard contracts to ensure friend tells her friend to take advice from ACAS, that workers receive the payment they are due for which I hope would then recommend enforcement by travelling between appointments. Will the Minister HMRC. agree to explore this option—I hope he will write to me with the results of his exploration—and if not, Lord Watts (Lab): My Lords, is it not the case that why not? the minimum wage was introduced to give an hourly wage? If that person is travelling and not being paid, Lord Henley: My Lords, I will look at the figures does that not undermine the principle of an hourly the noble Lord cited. I am not sure I fully accept them. minimum wage? The role of the Care Quality Commission is to make sure that health and social care services provide people with safe, effective, compassionate and high-quality Lord Henley: My Lords, the point is that the travelling care. It is not within the remit of its inspectors to time between the two jobs should be taken into account: check the contractual arrangements of each home it should be part of what is called the pay reference care worker. I will certainly ask officials to look at that period. One should look at the whole pay reference and to ask colleagues in the Department of Health. I period and make sure that it is compliant with the also make it clear that local authorities, when minimum wage legislation. If there is any doubt, take commissioning services and when guidance has been advice from ACAS. issued by the Government, should assure themselves and have evidence that their service providers deliver Baroness Watkins of Tavistock (CB): My Lords, it services through staff remunerated so as to retain an would be helpful if the Minister could comment on effective workforce. Remuneration should be at least the challenges to local authorities of trying to place sufficient to comply with the national minimum wage contracts for people who need at least three visits a legislation via hourly pay or equivalent salary. That day in rural communities, where the time spent between will include appropriate remuneration for any time visits is significant and they are unable to fully factor spent travelling between appointments. in those costs. Is he aware that in some places they are 909 Home Care Workers [LORDS] Ofcom: RT News Channel 910 [BARONESS WATKINS OF TAVISTOCK] Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op): My Lords, I choosing to use different carers for the same individual am really grateful to the Minister for a very helpful across the 24-hour period so that they avoid paying Answer. Does he agree that it is ironic that RT takes some of the travel costs? advantage of the freedoms in this country that are not available in Russia? Will he nevertheless take some Lord Henley: My Lords, we are dealing with the pay government action to stop RT, the Russian television of individuals and the travel costs between the two agency, the Sputnik news agency, based in Edinburgh visits. I have tried to set out what the law is, and I think and London, and indeed all the social networks spreading that it is perfectly clear. On funding for local authorities, the Kremlin’sfake news throughout this United Kingdom? it is for them to decide how to deal with it. The Government have given councils access to £3.6 billion Lord Ashton of Hyde: I thank the noble Lord. I extra funding for adult social care in 2018-19 and agree, although I would not want to comment specifically £3.9 billion in 2019-20. on RT, for the reasons I have mentioned. However, in 2017 the Prime Minister said that the Russian state Baroness Wheeler (Lab): My Lords, this is has been launching, predominantly a female workforce, often employed “a sustained campaign of cyber espionage and disruption”, under precarious employment conditions—on zero-hours which has included, contracts without any guarantee of the number of “meddling in elections and hacking the Danish Ministry of hours worked or available each week.

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