Queensland

Parliamentary Debates [Hansard]

Legislative Assembly

TUESDAY, 3 APRIL 1973

Electronic reproduction of original hardcopy

Ministerial Statement [3 APRIL 1973] Ministerial Statement 3523

TUESDAY, 3 APRIL 1973 In relation to the Federated Housing Fund group, Mr. Connolly found- "(A) The fund company is within the definition of 'building society' in the Building Societies Act 1886-1972 and was Mr. ACTING SPEAKER (Mr. Lickiss, illegally formed contrary to section 41 of Mt. Coot-tha) read prayers and took the chair at 11 a.m. that Act. "(B) The operations of the fund com­ pany are not subject to .th~ restr.aif.!ts PAPERS imposed by Parliament on bmldmg socrehes The following papers were laid on the because the relevant provisions are directed table:- to 'registered building societies'. Proclamation under the Adoption of Child­ "(C) I am of the opinion that it is in ren Act Amendment Act 1972. the interests of the public and of the Orders in Council under­ shareholders that both companies should be Forestry Act 1959-1971. wound up. "(D) I am of the opinion that the The Harbours Acts, 1955 to 1968. directors have acted in the affairs of the Water Act 1926-1968. fund company in their own interests rather Regulations under- than in the interests of the members as a The State Transport Acts, 1960 to 1965. whole. The Harbours Acts, 1955 to 1968. "(E) I am of the opinion that. it is just Queensland Marine Act 1958-1972. and equitable that both compames should be wound up." In relation to the Northern Group MINISTERIAL STATEMENT Insurance, Mr. Connolly found that- INVESTIGATION OF HOUSING FINANCE COM­ "(A) The fund company is within the PANIES BY MR. P. D. CoNNOLLY, Q.C. definition of 'building society' in the Building Societies Act 1886-1972 and was Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister illegally formed contrary to section 41 of for Justice) (11.3 a.m.): During his investiga­ that Act. tion into the operation of a number of com­ "(B) The operations of the fund com­ panies, Mr. P. D. Connolly, Q.C., became pany are not subject to the rest;ai~ts aware that persons associated with the com­ imposed by Parliament on . ?mldmg panies under investigation were also asso­ societies because the relevant provrswns are ciated with groups of companies then actively directed to 'registered building societies'. seeking moneys from the general public. "(C) I am of the opinion that it is in These companies, which were engaged in the the interests of the public and of the field of housing finance, gave publicity to the shareholders that both companies should possibility of members of the public obtaining be wound up. finance at less than normal rates of interest. "(D) I am of the opinion that these I was advised that the financial structure of companies have a severe liquidity problem. these companies was questionable, and that Should they overcome it, it is my opinion the provisions of the Building Societies Act that the stage is set for the affairs of the were being circumvented. In all the circum­ fund company to be conducted in the stances, I considered that a special investiga­ interests of the directors and their asso­ tion pursuant to the provisions of Part VI A ciates rather than in the interests of the of the Companies Act should be made into members as a whole. the affairs of these companies. Accordingly, "(E) I am of the opinion that it is just on 21 December 1972 the Governor in and equitable that both companies should Council appointed Mr. P. D. Connolly, Q.C., be wound up." pursuant to section 170 of the Companies Act, to investigate all of the affairs of the In relation to the Mutual Home Loans companies during the whole of the period of group, Mr. Connolly found that- their operations. "(A) The fund company is within the definition of 'building society' in the Mr. Connolly has completed his report in Building Societies Act 1886-1972 and was respect of six of these companies, namely­ illegally formed contrary to section 41 of Federated Housing Fund of Australia that Act. Limited; "(B) The operations of the fun.d c~m­ The Federated Housing Fund Manage­ pany are not subject to the. r~stramts. ~~­ ment Company Limited; posed by Parliament on bmldmg socrehes The Mutual Home Loans Fund of Aus­ because the relevant provisions are directed tralia (Qld.) Ltd.; to 'registered building societies'. Mutual Home Loans Management Co. "(C) I am of the opinion that it is in (Qld.) Ltd.; the interests of the public and of the share­ Northern Mutual Loans Limited; and holders that both companies should be Services & Management (Qld.) Ltd. wound up. 3524 Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice

"(D) I am of the opinion that the (2) Will he therefore take steps, through directors have acted in the affairs of the the appropriate authorities, to ensure that fund company in their own interests rather books are made available from other than in the interests of the members as a sources, such as foreign publishers in places whole; and like Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan? "(E) I am of the opinion that it is just and equitable that both companies should Answer:- be wound up." (1 and 2) "The increases in funds avail­ Action to wind up the six companies is able for Library Development Grants and today being taken by me by petitions to the the associated booster grant scheme are Supreme Court of Queensland. Mr. Connolly significant and are designed to ultimately has still to complete his investigation in provide the best school library collections respect of the remaining two companies­ in the Commonwealth of Australia. It is Queensland Loan Home Fund Limited and inevitable that such an increase should Home Loans Management Pty. Ltd. provide initial strains upon the bookselling I table Mr. Connolly's report, and move industry and upon the flow of books and that the report be printed. similar resources to Australia from the traditional suppliers in Great Britain and Whereupon the report was laid on the the United States, and also from local table, and ordered to be printed. industry sources. There is no doubt that earlier in the year a problem with shortages QUESTIONS UPON NOTICE of books did exist, but the problem has largely been overcome through close co­ JANITOR-GROUNDSMAN AND CLERK-TYPIST, operation between my Department and the AITKENVALE OPPORTUNITY SCHOOL, book publishing and bookselling industries. TOWNSVILLE There are no known publishers of English Mr. Tucker, pursuant to notice, asked The language books for children in Hong Kong, Minister for Education,- Singapore or Taiwan. It is well known that ( 1) As children of a number of my many publishers in Australia and Great constituents attend the opportunity school Britain utilise the printing facilities which at Aitkenvale. Townsville, why has assist­ exist in those places and the books so ance, in the form of a janitor-groundsman printed are offered for sale in Australia and a clerk-typist, been denied to this in the usual way. I emphasise that the class 2 school, despite the fact that applica­ facilities for English language book pro­ tions for the assistance were lodged with duction in Hong Kong, Singapore and his Department on September 12 and 14, Taiwan are printing facilities and not pub­ 1972? lishing facilities." (2) When will the assistance be granted? Answers:- RESERVATION OF LAND IN PARISH OF GREGORY AS ENVIRONMENTAL PARK (!) "It is not always possible to appoint ancillary staff to class 2 schools immed­ Mr. Bousen, pursuant to notice, asked The iately upon their establishment. Every Minister for Lands,- effort is made however to make the ( 1) Has his attention been drawn to provision as quickly as possible and in an advertisement in the Bundaberg News accordance with the financial and man­ Mail of March 27, wherein the lease of power resources of the Department. Assist­ land described as portion R491, parish of ance in the form of a janitor-groundsman Gregory, has been offered for sale for a and a clerk-typist has not been denied to period of 20 years? the Aitkenvale Opportunity School but there have been unfortunate delays in (2) Why is the land being put up for finalising appointments to these two sale and was any consideration given to positions." reserving some of it for an environmental park? (2) "It is anticipated that a janitor­ groundsman will commence duty on April (3) If not, will he take appropriate' 4, and that a clerk-typist will be appointed action to stop the sale of the lease until a to the school within the next fortnight." survey is carried out as to its suitability as an environmental park?

BOOKS FOR SCHOOL LIBRARIES Answer:- Mr. Row, pursuant to notice, asked The (1 to 3) '·Owing to the necessity to Minister for Education,- adjust the area of camping and water ( 1) Is he aware that in spite of enhanced reserve R. 491, parish of Gregory, it has grants to Queensland schools for library been approved to withdraw the reserve purposes, the required books and publica­ from sale originally gazetted for April 10, tions cannot be purchased due to their 1973. The matter of whether or not the unavailability from local sources? area should be reserved for environmental Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice 3525

park in terms of recent legislation intro­ or ·of any approaches that have been made duced in the House, will be looked into by the company regarding the establish­ prior to further sale action being taken." ment of an alumina plant at or near Mackay?

CLOSURE OF BRISBANE SUBURBAN POLICE ( 4) Will he assure the company that STATIONS; CRIMES REPORTED, CLAYFIELD, the people of Mackay and district would MOOROOKA AND STAFFORD STATIONS be most receptive to such a plant being established at or near Mackay and thst Mr. Lee, pursuant to notice, asked The they condemn the reactionary attitude of Minister for Works,- those few persons who are opposed to ('1) Is it intended to close suburban such industrial development in the region? police stations in Brisbane? Answers:- (2) How many criminal-offence reports (1) were handled by (a) Clayfield, (b) Moo­ "I am aware that a study of a pre­ rooka and (c) Stafford police stations dur­ liminary nature only has been made at ing (i) 1971-72 and (ii) the half-year several places in Queensland." ended December 31, 1972? (2) "No." (3 and 4) "The Government hss Answers:- received no reports nor any approaches (!) "No. However, I would point out concerning an alumina plant, but, should it here that there has been a considerable do so, will act in its normal way towards reduction in the workloads at suburban achieving the greatest good for the State of stations since the introduction of mobile Queensland as a whole." patrols."

(2) "For the period July 1, 1971 to CROSS-RIVER RAILWAY BRIDGE, SOUTH June 30, 1972-{a) (i) Clayfield, 594; BRISBANE-ROMA STREET (b) (i) Moorooka, 1,325; and (c) (i) Stafford, 710. For the period July 1, 1972 Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked The to December 31, 1972-(a) (ii) Clayfield, Minister for Transport,- 114; (b) (ii) Moorooka, 354; and (c) (ii) Will the proposed Merivale Street rail­ Stafford, 147. The figures quoted are in way bridge, which will connect the respect of matters actually reported at the southern and northern urban systems, have stations referred to during the relevant a standard-gauge connection, thus making periods. I would add here for the Honour­ Roma Street station the interstate passen­ able Member's interest that since it is ger terminal and allowing rail travellers unlikely there has been a substantial overall from the north to transfer to their inter­ reduction in crime, the only explanation state connections without having the incon­ for the figures quoted above, is that the venience of transferring their luggage to work is being accepted by the crews of South Brisbane? mobile patrols." Answer:- "The cross-river connection between ALUMINA PLANT FOR MACKA Y DISTRICT South Brisbane and Roma Street is being Mr. Casey, pursuant to notice, asked The designed so that when constructed it will Premier,- be capable of carrying standard-gauge trains. The estimated extra cost of pro­ (1) Is he aware that Comalco Aust. Pty. viding dual-gauge tracks and associated Ltd. recently conducted a feasibility study signalling and other alterations is in the Mackay district relating to the $1,865,000 on present day costs. As this establishment of a second alumina plant in would represent the extension of standard­ Queensland. at or near Mackay. and that gauge to Roma Street, an approach is being the company was most happy with the made through the Commonwealth Bureau prospects of the district as revealed by of Transport Economics to determine that study? whether the Commonwealth would favour­ (2) Is he aware that a Government ably consider providing the necessary Member and certain Government supporters finance." connected with local authorities in the Mackay area have intimated privately to the company that they are opposed to such UNEMPLOYMENT GRANTS AND SUBSIDIES, development at Mackay? LOCAL AUTHORITIES ( 3) As the people of Mackay and dis­ Mr. Gunn, pursuant to notice, asked The trict are anxious to see industrial develop­ Treasurer,- ment of their area and thus ensure a ( 1) How much has been allocated in secure future for themselves and their the form of grants to local authorities families and future generations, will he throughout Queensland over the past reveal the details of any reports which twelve months to relieve unemployment the Government has received on this matter within the shires? 3526 Questions Upon Notice (3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice

(2) How much has been paid to shires (2) As country drivers are not restricted over the last twelve months in the form from driving in the city, will he consider of subsidies? removing the three-months' residential (3) Are the unemployment grants and requirement for all citizens seeking a subsidies to shires likely to continue? licence in country areas? If not, what is the reason? Answers:- (3) Are the driving tests uniform in ( 1) "Special Commonwealth unemploy­ both city and country areas? ment grants to local authorities and other local bodies outside the metropolitan area ( 4) Does he intend to establish more totalled $3,724,000 for the period driving-licence issuing stations in Brisbane? February-June, 1972. To March 31, 1973, a further $7,556,337 has been allocated. Answers:- In addition, a grant of $1,400,000 was approved in January last for the Brisbane ( I) "(a) Rosalie-motor cycles approxi­ City Council for expenditure by June 30 mately 11 weeks; other motor vehicles next." approximately 10 weeks. (b) Coorparoo­ motor cycles approximately 10 weeks; (2) "Subsidies paid to local authorities other motor vehicles approximately 8 and other local bodies during the period weeks. (c) To supply this information March 1, 1972 to February 28, 1973, would require advice being sought from totalled $16,370,982." each police station in Queensland outside (3) "I have no information as to the metropolitan area of Brisbane with a whether the special Commonwealth large expenditure of man hours. It is not unemployment grants will be continued proposed to take this action. In relation to beyond June 30 next. So far as the State's (a) and (b) these are the general time lags. approved subsidy scheme is concerned, Numbers of appointments are cancelled by there is no proposal to discontinue the intending applicants. In emergent circum­ existing practice." stances, particularly where a person's liveli­ hood is at stake, the applicant is tested. usually within days, during appointment periods vacated." EXEMPTION FROM STAMP DUTY ON HOUSING LOANS (2) "There is no three months' resi­ Mr. Y ewdale, pursuant to notice, asked dential requirement before an applicant The Treasurer,- may be issued with a driver's licence in country areas." (!) When the maximum permissible home loan is raised by the Common­ (3) "Every applicant for a driver's wealth Government to beyond $10 000 licence is required to pass a driving test will home purchasers, who are forced t~ of the nature prescribed by Regulation borrow the maximum amount, be excluded 107 (1) of the Traffic Regulations." from the exemption from stamp duty which now applies? ( 4) "Yes. Investigations are currently (2) If so, and in view of the soaring being made into the establishment of a home construction and land costs since further centre on the northside." the legislation was enacted, will he give consideration to lifting the amount secured by mortgage, which is exempt from stamp duty? SuRVEY oF WALLUM LANDs, 1fARYBOROUGH-BUNDABERG Answers:­ AREA (1) "Yes." Mr. Blake, pursuant to notice, asked The (2) "In view of the increases in limits Minister for Primary Industries,- of advances by various lending authorities ( 1) With reference to his Answer to together with increased property values, th~ my Question on August 19, 1969, when, matter of increasing the limit for this as Minister for Lands, he stated that the exemption under the Stamp Act will be survey and utilisation study of vacant given consideration when I am drafting the wallum land between Maryborough and 1973-74 Budget." Bundaberg had not been completed but a report was expected at an early date, has a report been received and, if so, what TESTING, MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVERS' LICENCES were the main recommendations? Mr. R. E. Moore, pursuant to notice, asked (2) Do recent Press reports that a new The Minister for Works,- demand for wallum land has sparked a full-scale land-use survey in coastal low­ ( 1) What is the present delay involved lands between Maryborough and Bunda­ when citizens apply to be tested for a berg refer to a new survey and a new driving licence at (a) Milton, (b) Coor­ survey team or an extension of the 1969 paroo and (c) country areas? original? Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice 3527

(3) Is the "freezing" of 150,000 acres, AGED PERSONS' UNITS, PINE RIVERS referred to in his reported statement this SHIRE week, new, or is it an extension of that Mr. Leese, pursuant to notice, asked The notified to some applicants for land in Minister for Works,- the same area in previous years? Further to my Question of December 7 (4) In view of my many submissions regarding the building of aged-pensioner seeking developmental-policy clarification units in the Pine Rivers Shire, has the Hous­ and in view of widespread concern at ing Commission yet obtained ownership of the long "freeze" on land acquisition and a suitable site? If not, what are the reasons development in the area, when will further and, if so, have tenders been called and land acquisition and development be for how many units? allowed to proceed? Answer:- Answer:- "Preference in selection was given to land where sewerage is available and (1 to 4) "The Honourable Member is arrangements are in hand to purchase confusing two matters. The survey referred 57· 5 perches of sewered land. Tenders for to in his earlier Question was carried out 10 aged persons units will be called as by officers of the Lands Department and soon as transfer of the land to the Com­ Forestry Department. I would suggest that mission is finalised." any questions in relation thereto, and also in relation to Press reports concerning vacant land, be directed to my colleague, the Honourable Minister for Lands. The STRATHPINE ROAD OVERPASS, BALD HILLS current survey entails detailed land capa­ Mr. Leese, pursuant to notice, asked The bility assessment of the whole area and the Minister for Mines,- collation of the land-use data which have emerged from separate studies by a number ( 1) What is the expected completion of departments. This survey is under the date of the Strathpine Road overpass at direction of an inter-departmental working the Bald Hills-Burpengary deviation? group." (2) Will the overpass have provision for pedestrian traffic?

Answers:- CoNTROL oF UsE AND SALE OF (1) "Towards the end of 1973 but FIREARMS . AND AMMUNITION pedestrians may be able to use the bridge Mr. Cory, pursuant to notice, asked The about a month before completion." Minister for Works,- (2) "Yes." What legislative action can be taken to control the carrying and use of firearms and/or the sale of firearms and ammunition? FIRE-SAFETY INSPECTIONS Answer:- Mr. Leese, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Development,- "1 am considering gun legislation. The Is he satisfied that sufficient fire­ exact form it will take will to some extent prevention inspections are being carried depends on a report now being compiled out to ensure maximum safety precautions? by the Police Department. The report will incorporate all the relevant information, Answer:- including the effects of legislation on pro­ "1 refer the Honourable Member to my fessional shooters, gamehunters, etc. How­ Ministerial Statement of March 15, 1973. This matter is receiving the earnest atten­ ever, my thinking at present is that it would tion of the State Fire Services Council." be best to licence the owner rather than the gun. This would enable greater control over the distribution of firearms and of course would mean that-say-a pro­ REMOVAL OF MooRING PILES, CREEK fessional shooter with several guns would STREET FERRY TERMINAL, need only one licence. Certainly, there is BRISBANE RIVER a need for gun control. I think that is Mr. Lane, pursuant to notice, asked The obvious, particularly in the light of over­ Minister for Conservation,- seas experience. Of course it is not only the As he is no doubt aware that since last misuse of guns by the criminal element Monday an excellent down-river ferry ser­ vice is being conducted by the Golden which disturbs me, but misuse by ill­ Mile Ferry Service between New Farm informed and often careless firearm and a new pontoon at the bottom end of enthusiasts." Creek Street, City, what action has been 3528 Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice

taken by his Department to have a num­ centres relying on visiting doctors, with ber of old and rotting wooden piles clinics only for outpatients and urgent removed from the vicinity of this landing cases being forced to travel long distances where they are an eyesore to the hundreds for hospitalisation? of passengers who land there each day? Answer:- Answer:- (1 and 2) "There is no intention to "The old wooden piles at the Golden withdraw from hospitals boards the present Mile Ferry Service Terminal, Creek Street, authority in respect to the appointment of are the remains of an old ferry terminal superintendents for the hospitals under operated by the Brisbane City Council. The their control. It is pointed out however council has been asked to remove these that doctors are less willing to serve in piles and has agreed to accept responsi­ country areas and hospitals boards are bility for the cost. However, the council receiving very few applications when is not able to carry out the work with its positions of medical superintendents are own force and has requested my Depart­ advertised. It is necessary to point out ment of Harbours and Marine to do so at that the Department does not have general the council's cost. The work will be authority to direct medical practitioners. carried out within the next few weeks." The Department however assists country hospitals boards by filling many vacancies with Government scholarship holders. At LABOUR SHORTAGE, GRAZING INDUSTRY present there are 41 positions in country hospitals filled in this way. At times a Mr. Aiken, pursuant to notice, asked The short-term relief is provided by second Premier,- year resident medical officers from metro­ ( 1) Is he aware of the particularly politan hospitals who serve two months in acute general shortage of shearers, shed­ this capacity. When hospitals boards are hands and rural labour and that shearing unable to recruit medical superintendents it is being completely held up on many is sometimes necessary to vary the usual properties because of the absolute unavail­ method of staffing until the boards over­ ability of labour? come such difficulty." (2) Is the situation sufficiently alarming to industry to attempt to organise shearing schools or will the present conditions con­ EMERGENCY POWER PLANTS, RoMA tinue to worsen, as the current good season AND MITCHELL HOSPITALS will result in large crops of lambs as graziers strive to build up depleted flock Mr. Aiken, pursuant to notice, asked The numbers? Minister for Health,- ( 1) Has the Roma Hospital recently Answers:­ installed an emergency power plant because of an unsatisfactory power service from (!) "Yes." the local power station? (2) "The present shortage of shearers (2) Why has the Mitchell Hospital, has developed out of a succession of which has a far more unsatisfactory power drought years with many of the smaller service than Roma, been denied an emer­ graziers in particular shearing their own gency power plant despite the many appeals depleted numbers. With the build-up of from citizens and the local shire council numbers this year, the question of shearing and is this hospital to be phased out in schools is one which the industry could company with other country hospitals in well take up in conjunction with the Com­ this area? monwealth Employment Service initially. If these are seen to be the answer to the Answers:- labour shortage, the Honourable Member can be assured my Government will co­ ( 1) "Following on representations by the operate in the matter." Roma Hospitals Board approval has been given for the installation of equipment to provide emergency light and power to selected areas of the Roma Hospital as HOSPITAL AND MEDICAL STAFFS, part of a project to upgrade the electrical lNJUNE AND SuRAT installations at that hospital." Mr. Aiken, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Health,- (2) "As indicated in my letter to the Honourable Member on August 9, 1971, ( 1) Are the hospital staffs at Injune and the decision not to proceed with the Surat to be withdrawn arid are the present installation of emergency light and power doctors not to be replaced? at the Mitchell Hospital was made by the (2) Is the situation developing in Roma Hospitals Board after consideration country areas, which are now supporting of advice received from the Roma Town doctors and hospital staff, whereby Council. For the information of the Hon­ centralising of doctors will result in these ourable Member I would advise that in Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice 3529

February, 1971, a committee compnsmg (3) As no findings of the Great Barrier departmental and hospital medical per­ Reef Petroleum Drilling Royal Commis­ sonnel, a departmental engineer and sions have been disclosed, how was the administration officer was established to authority obtained during the Commis­ formulate a policy in respect of the installa­ sions' proceedings? tion of emergency light and power in hospitals. This policy has been adopted." Answers:- (1) "Gulf Oil Exploration's MIS Gulfrex has completed a scientific investi­ SOUTH-EAST PERIPHERAL BUFFER ZONE gation of Queensland waters and those out­ PROPOSAL, BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL side the Great Barrier Reef, and is now Mr. Chinchen, pursuant to notice, asked proceeding to the United States of America The Minister for Local Government,- after five years of research all around the With reference to his Answer to the world." Question by the Honourable Member for (2) "The initial application was made to Mansfield, in relation to the iniquitous the designated authority by letter dated "freezing" of land at Rochedale by the November 4, 1971. It was referred to the Brisbane City Council, that reductions in Commonwealth Government, which con­ the number of parcels of land in the buffer sented by letter dated July 21, 1972. The zone would not be allowed, cannot this formal approval was signed by the desig­ land be reduced to 10 acres as at present? nated authority on November 27, 1972." If so, is the council empowered to impose this restriction? (3) "By virtue of the provisions of section 123 of The Petroleum (Submerf?ed Answer:- Lands) Act of 1967 of Queensland and "The subdivision of land in the City of The Petroleum (Submerged Lands) Act Brisbane is subject to the provisions of the 1967-1968 of the Commonwealth." town plan for the city and the provisions of chapter 8 of the ordinances of the Bris­ Loss OF MONEY IN TRANSIT FROM bane City Council made under the City of BADU ISLAND; MR. B. NONA Brisbane Act 1924-1972 and the City of Brisbane Town Planning Act 1964-1971. Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked In terms of the ordinances, the subdivision The Minister for Works,- of land is subject to prior approval by the (1) With reference to my Question on council and the ordinances provide inter March 27 concerning an alleged conviction alia, that, except as otherwise prescribed against Mr. Benjamin Nona for stealing, therein, the minimum area of any proposed is he aware that documents purporting to allotment in the non-urban zone shall be be copies of a Ministerial Answer, in his 10 acres. In my opinion, the area of pro­ name, to this Question, were distributed to posed allotments in the subdivision of land journalists in the Press gallery of this in the non-urban zone is a matter for Parliament, together with Ministerial decision by the council subject to the Answers to other Questions on notice on minimum requirements specified in the the morning of March 27? ordinances. In terms of the City of Bris­ bane Town Planning Act 1964-1971 any (2) Is he also aware that around 11 person who is dissatisfied with a decision of a.m. on that day copies of this document the council on an application to subdivide were withdrawn from the journalists in the land may appeal to The Local Government Press gallery by a Government-employed Court against such decision." officer working in this House? (3) On whose instruction was it with­ drawn from the Press gallery? SEISMIC SURVEY BY GULF OIL EXPLORATION Co., GREAT ( 4) Is he aware that the text of the BARRIER REEF original document was different from the ultimate Answer given by him in this Mr. R. Jones, pursuant to notice, asked Parliament on Wednesday, March 28? The Premier,- ( 1) Will the Gulf Oil Exploration Com­ (5) Why was it necessary to defer for pany's seismographic survey for oil by ship one day the Answer which ultimately be extended from Mackay to Cairns, then referred negatively to an answer by the Cairns to Cape York and Torres Strait? Premier on March 7? If so, what are the scheduled dates for the commencement and completion of this Answers:- operation? ( 1) ''I am unaware of the circumstances (2) At what date was the initial applica­ as outlined by the Honourable Member."' tion made to State and/ or Commonwealth (2 to 4) "See Answer to (1)." authorities and when was the necessary authority obtained for the seismic survey (5) "To give further consideration to for oil? the Honourable Member's Question." 3530 Questions Upon Notice (3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice

LEAVE AND SALARY OF PUBLIC SERVANTS Answer:- GRANTED CHURCHILL FELLOWSIDPS "Whilst my Depatiment has plans for Mr. W. D. Hewitt, pursuant to notice, asked the establishment of a high school in the The Premier,- Capalaba area the enrolments at those (1) How many members of the Public schools currently serving the area do not Service have been granted Churchill indicate an urgent need for a school in Fellowships since the inception of the 1974. The matter will be re-examined scheme? later this year with a view to assessing the urgency for a high school in 1975." (2) On what terms are they granted leave to take up the fellowships? (3) What salary is paid to them during their absence? NEW PRIMARY SCHOOL, SPRINGWOOD NORTH Answers:- Mr. Baldwin, pursuant to notice, asked The (1) "Nineteen officers of the Public Minister for Education,- Service, including the teaching service, have ( 1) In view of the number of requests been offered Churchill Fellowships since that I have received from interested parents the inception of the scheme." in the area of the proposed State primary school for Springwood North, will the (2 and 3) "The conditions applicable to school be ready for the beginning of the the leave granted to officers awarded 1974 school year? Churchill Fellowships have recently been reviewed and the following conditions apply (2) Will he confer with his colleague, as from January 1, 1973:-Special leave the Minister for Works, with a view to on full pay is granted to enable an officer leaving some indigenous trees in suitable to proceed overseas for the period of study places in the grounds for educational, covered by the award provided the per­ cultural and other reasons? manent head of the relevant department is satisfied that the fellowship awarded is Answers:- directly related to the nature of the employ­ ment of the officer concerned and that the (!) "Provision has been made on the knowledge and the information gained by Draft Loan Works Program for the the officer will be of benefit to the Queens­ financial year 1973-74 for the construction land Government. In this case the officer of a primary school on this site." is required to enter into a contract of (2) "I am personally very much in service to the Queensland Government for favour of preserving as many indigenous a period of two years after return from trees as is practicable and I am assured overseas. Where the study is a personal that every endeavour is made by the choice of an officer and of little relevance Department of Works to preserve existing to the department concerned and, conse­ trees when a new school site is being quently, the conditions I have outlined developed." cannot be met, special leave on half pay is granted to enable the officer to proceed overseas for the period of study covered by the A ward, provided the permanent head is satisfied that the knowledge and the infor­ INDUSTRIAL SURVEY, MoRETON REGION mation gained will be of value to the State Mr. Baldwin, pursuant to notice, asked generally. In such a case, the officer is The Minister for Development,- required to enter into a contract of service With reference to an industrial survey of to the Queensland Government for a period the Moreton region which is believed to be determined in relation to the duration of under way as a joint effort by his Depart­ the leave granted." ment and the relevant section of the Uni­ versity of Queensland- (!) Is the survey yet completed? NEW SECONDARY SCHOOL, CAPALABA (2) Is a report yet completed? Mr. Baldwin, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- (3) Will the report be published and In view of the increasing number of copies made available to interested Hon­ anxious enquiries I am receiving from ourable Members and, if so, when? parents in the Capalaba area and of the large number of students travelling from Answers:­ that area to secondary schools in Cleve­ land, Wynnum and Camp Hill and in order (1) "Yes." to lighten the loads on those schools, can (2) "Yes." a secondary school be established on the reserve at Capalaba in time for the com­ (3) "Yes. The repDrt is presently in the mencement of the 1974 school year? hands of the printer." Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice 3531

UNIVERSITY MATRICULATION brigade who would proceed directly to the REQUIREMENTS gallery. This alarm system will operate Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice asked at all times and not just after hours." The Minister for Education,- ' (2) "Yes, the alarm system is activated (1) When will the new university by smoke and/or the elements of com­ matriculation requirements be finalised? bustion." (2) What effect will requests from the (3) "In the event of an alarm being Board of Secondary School Studies have given when staff are present, the following upon draft matriculation rules? basic emergency procedures would be followed:-(a) One attendant, detailed by Answer:- the head attendant, would immediately ( 1 and 2) "The Vice-Chancellor of evacuate the public from the building. the University of Queensland has advised (b) The head attendant would notify the that two sets of matriculation proposals are police, security and other emergency under consideration. Senate, late in 1971 services as required, the director and formulated the principles on which assistant director and also inform the matriculation at the end of 1973 for 1974 museum staff next door. (c) The most would be based. These were embodied in valuable art works which are designated the draft rules dated January, 1972 which and set in the most accessible position in I tabled recently. The changes to these storage would be removed as quickly as rules will essentially be of a formal nature; possible within the limits of human safety. however, they will not be submitted to In the event of fire after hours, the night Senate before May. A meeting of the pro­ watchman would immediately proceed to fessorial board will be held on Thursday, the section in which the alarm had been April 5, to consider whether a major raised (as shown on the control board) and change should be made to the matriculation apply first-aid by fire extinguisher until the rules to apply at the end of 1974 for entry fire brigade arrived. This action would alert in 1975. Material to be submitted to that security automatically by the watchman meeting includes documents from the Board moving through ultrasonically monitored of Secondary School Studies." sections of the gallery." ( 4) "Valuation on the works on the gallery at March 30, 1973-$1 ,656,420." FIRE-ALARM SYSTEM, QUEENSLAND ART (5) The whole collection is insured by GALLERY; VALUE OF WORKS AND the trustees with insurance brokers­ INSURANCE COVER Stewart Smith Insurances (Qid) Pty. Ltd. Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice asked Fine arts policy-all risks. The under The Minister for Education,- ' writers are as follows:-Insurance Com­ ( 1) What fire-alarm systems are pany of North America, 47 per cent.; installed in the Queensland Art Gallery? Law, Union & Rock, 4 per cent.; New Zealand Victoria, 5 per cent.; Phoenix, (2) Is there any fire-alarm system there 5 per cent.; Edward Lumley, 27 per cent.; which would be activated by the presence S.G.I.O., 3 per cent.; and Stewart Smith of smoke? Insurance London Office, 9 per cent." (3) What would be the procedures to follow in the event of an outbreak of fire? STUDENT RESIDENTIAL AccOMMODATION, ( 4) What is the latest valuation of DARLING DoWNS INSTITUTE OF works in the gallery? ADVANCED EDUCATION ( 5) Will he outline details of any Mr. P. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked insurance held either by the Government or The Minister for Education,- by the trustees to cover works in the ( 1) How many students are accommo­ gallery? dated at the Davis Hall of Residence. Darling Downs Institute of Advanced Answers:- Education, and what is the weekly cost to (1) "Recently installed in the Queens­ students? land Art Gallery (in the l.ast month) by (2) Is any additional accommodation Wormalds contractors, Is a smoke­ planned and, if so, what are the details? sensitivity pre-alarm system. This system is still under test by Wormalds and is to be Answers:- connected direct to the fire brigade. It is expected the system will be connected The Director of the Darling Downs direct to the fire brigade this week, depend­ Institute of Advanced Education has ing on the availability of the P.M.G. line. advised- When this connexion is made, in the event ( I) "There are 67 students in residence of one of the heads being activated in a together with a master, a mistress and one particular sector of the gallery an alarm resident tutor. The weekly cost to students would be immediately raised at the fire is $18.50." 3532 Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice

(2) "No additional accommodation for (3) "As stated in Answer to ( 1), the the Davis Hall of Residence is planned more common disabilities can be handled for the current triennium. However, at the school by teachers who have received $20,000 has been provided to allow for some training in this area. The guidance preliminary planning for further accom­ officer takes a particular interest in those modation to be constructed in the 1976-78 students who were recognised as having triennium." learning disabilities in the primary school. If remedial teaching is still required arrangements are usually made for it." SUBJECTS ON SENIOR CERTIFICATE, RADFORD EDUCATION SCHEME Mr. B. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked NATIONAL PARK AND STATE FOREST, The Minister for Education,- WEYMOUTH, CAPE YORK PENINSULA In view of the aims of the Radford Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked Report that a wider range of subjects The Minister for Lands,- be offered to Grade 12 level, will he list ( 1) Have any decisions been made in the schools, together with the subjects, connection with proclaiming a National offering studies which may appear on the Park over part of the Cape York Peninsula certificate as subjects offered by the school property "Weymouth" and two adjoining on its own initiative? occupation licences? Answer:- (2) Has part of "Weymouth" been reserved as State Forest? "The senior certificate issued by the board at the end of Grade 12 shows board (3) As a Press statement by the Lands subjects-for which syllabuses are approved Minister on February 10, 1972, fore­ and grades of achievement are moderated­ shadowed both areas as National Park and and school subjects which a school offers on State Forest, what is the area in each? its own initiative. The attached list indi­ cates the school subjects which will be Answers:­ included on the senior certificate in 1973, (1) "No." and the schools which are offering these subjects." (2) "No." Paper.-Whereupon Sir Alan Fletcher laid (3) "Investigations of the Weymouth upon the Table of the House the list area have not been finalised, and therefore referred to. no decision has been made on the areas of any State Forests or National Parks in this region." REMEDIAL TEACHERS Mr. B. Wood, pursuant to notice, asked The Minister for Education,- EMPLOYMENT OF ABORIGINES, COEN WATER SUPPLY SCHEME ( 1) Are remedial teachers available to high school students with learning diffi­ Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked culties? The Minister for Local Government,- (2) Has consideration been given to the As $40,000 has been provided by the establishment of modified courses at Grade Commonwealth Government for the Cook 8 level? Shire for works which can absorb Aborig­ inal workers, will he consider using some ( 3) What particular attention is given to of this money to complete the water stor­ children with learning problems, especially age and other works connected with the those who have been identified and catered provision of reticulated water at Coen, as for at primary level? 'all the plans have been completed and the work has commenced? Answers:- (1) "Generally, there are teachers avail­ Answer:- able in high schools to offer reading "The decision on the use of the grant improvement courses to those students mentioned by the Honourable Member is requiring this type of assistance. Other a matter for the Administrator of the Cook remedial work is provided where the Shire Council, subject, of course, to com­ guidance officer considers it necessary." pliance with the conditions under which (2) "The establishment of modified the grant was made available. With regard courses at Grade 8 level has been con­ to the proposal that some of the grant be sidered, but it it felt that Grade 8 should used on the Coen water supply, my be an exploratory year in which the school enquiries reveal that working document!! and the students should make the dis­ for this scheme have not yet been sub­ coveries which will lead to the provision mitted to the Department of Local Govern­ of the best educational program for each ment and work has not been commenced. I individual. If he thinks it desirable, any am advised that the council has applied for principal may introduce a Grade 8 course planning funds of $5,000 for the project based on a reduced syllabus." in the 1973-74 loan programme." Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice 3533

WATER SUPPLY FOR WASAGA, REZONING OF NON-URBAN LAND FOR HORN ISLAND INDUSTRIAL USE Mr. Wallis-Smith, pursuant to notice, asked Mr. Burns, pursuant to notice, asked The 1 he Premier,- Premier,- As Horn Island does not come under ( 1) What action does the Environmental the control of any local authority and as Planning Committee or any air-pollution 22 Torres Strait Island families live at and water-quality body take when pollut­ Wasaga township, where the Lands Depart­ ing industries, such as tanneries or brick­ ment recently sold building sites, will he works, apply for permission to re-zone take appropriate measures to have money non-urban land to noxious, hazardous from the $15,000 Commonwealth grant to industry or any other industrial classifica­ the Thursday Island Council used for the tion? laying of a water main from the existing water storage to Wasaga, such work to be (2) Is any environmental submission carried out by Torres Strait Islanders? made to the relevant local authority? (3) Has his Government, under the Answer:- State and Regional Planning and Develop­ "As a result of the Queensland Govern­ ment, Public Works Organization and ment's assessment of the employment posi­ Environmental Control Act, or any other tion in so far as Aborigines and Islanders Act, the power to intervene? in a number of centres in the State is con­ cerned and in order to create additional employment opportunities for them, we Answer:- submitted a case to the Federal Govern­ ( 1 to 3) "Applications for re-zoning are ment for the allocation of funds to enable a matter for local authorities and such special projects to be implemented in a local authorities may request submissions number of local authority areas. Included dealing with environmental effects if they in the suggested programme were certain so wish. Governmental agencies are willing projects on Thursday Island requiring and prepared to assist councils if requested. finance to the extent of $15,000 to be Individuals, firms or companies who pro­ expended by the Thursday Island Town pose to establish industries must now Council. Our proposals were accepted by obtain the necessary licences from the the Federal Government and, consequently, Air Pollution Council and the Water funds are committed to the council's Quality Council. The Environmental Con­ proj"ects on Thursday Island. Horn Island trol Council does not have executive is not within the area of the Thursday functions." Island Town Council and the question of Mr. R. Jones: Speaking of local authorities. whether it should be brought under local authority administration is at present what went wrong? receiving the consideration of the Depart­ Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The ment of Local Government." honourable member for Cairns is now warned under Standing Order 123A. Mr. R. Jones: Oh, Mr. Acting Speaker! HousiNG LoANs, TRADE UNION BUILDING SOCIETY Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I warned the honourable member earlier. If he does Mr. Lane, pursuant to notice, asked The not heed that warning, I shall deal with him. Minister for Works,- ( 1) Is he aware of a current practice by the Trade Union Building Society, under which money is solicited from all sections MIDWIFERY PRACTICES, ROYAL of the community but strict preference for WOMEN'S HOSPITAL home loans is given only to members of unions affiliated with the Trades and Mr. Burns, pursuant to notice, asked The Labor Council of Queensland? Minister for Health,- (2) Has this preference effectively pre­ ( I) Is he aware that some doctors are vented any loans being made to persons sn unhappy about what has been called the not so affiliated? great public dissatisfaction with midwifery in Brisbane and the out-of-date midwifery Answers:- practices at the Royal Women's Hospital, ( I) "No. It is understood that the that they are canvassing donations towards society makes loans available to all persons the setting-up of a private hospital where within the community who fulfil required more enlightened techniques oan be used? conditions." (2) What policy is adopted by the (2) "No. I am unaware that the rules Department or the North Brisbane of the society governing membership of an Hospitals Board in relation to the attend­ affiliated trades union has prevented any ance of husbands in intermediate labour person from obtaining a loan." wards? 113 3534 Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice

(3) What instructions are given to staff PROPOSED HIGHVIEW GENERAL in relation to the use of modern methods HoSPITAL, SOUTHPORT of childbirth 'and, in particular, to natural Mr. D'Arcy, pursuant to notice, asked The childbirth techniques which require different Minister for Health,- relationships between doctors and patients? As definite plans have been announced for the Highview Southport General ( 4) In view of the number of com­ Hospital, what is the commencing date of plaints and expressions of concern from the work and what is the estimated cost? Ministers and others regarding obstetric services and teaching, will he consider Answer:- undertaking an urgent public inquiry into this most important matter and allow "The proposed new building is a major evidence from the general public, the nurs­ project and requires detailed planning to ing and medical professions, the Natural ensure that the facilities to be provided are Childbirth Association and other associa­ in keeping with the requirements of the tions? area. Meetings have been held between hospitals board representatives, its archi­ tects, departmental officers and officers of Answers:- the Department of Works to finalise pre­ liminary sketch plans. A firm estimate of (1) "No. The Honourable Member cost will not be available until sketch plans appears to be referring to a recent mis­ are completed. The time at which con­ leading and inaccurate newspaper article." struction on this project can commence will be dependent on the time taken in the (2) "On the recommendation of the various stages of planning, the calling and Royal Women's Hospital Advisory Com­ review of tenders and the allocation of loan mittee, which in addition to Board's finance." officers includes Professor E. V. Mackay, Professor of Obstetrics, University of Queensland, and Drs. K. Wilson, R. Drake TOILET ACCOMMODATION, MUSGRAVE and I ames Hill, all of whom are consultant HILL PRIMARY ScHoOL obstetricians, the following decision has been made:-'Husbands are permitted to Mr. D'Arcy, pursuant to notice, asked The visit their wives in labour, but not during Minister for Works,- delivery, at the discretion of the sister in As the stench from the present cramped charge of labour ward at the time'." toilets at the Musgrave Hill High School is overpowering, rumours of hepatitis in the ( 3) "In the course of their instruction in district are rife and many parents demand obstetric analgesia and anaesthesia, the that their children come home rather than pupil midwives receive instruction in use the present toilets, will he investigate natural childbirth and psychoprophylaxis. and expedite the building of extra toilets? Nurses are also encouraged to attend in company with expectant mothers the classes Answer:- that are conducted by the physiotherapy "As there is no State high school at department for antenatal patients. These Musgrave Hill the Honourable Member classes are conducted each day in the week evidently refers to the primary school. and their purpose is to instruct the Approval has already been given for the expectant mother regarding the physiology provision of additional toilet facilities at and psychology of normal pregnancy and this school and it is anticipated that the labour. In addition they are assisted in the work will commence in about two weeks' performance of exercises to gain control of time." individual groups of muscles, to maintain good posture during pregnancy and to increase mobility and elasticity of joints and ligaments which assist in labour. I am WORKS DEPARTMENT LANDHOLD!NGS, advised that it is important to realise that ALBERT ELECTORATE natural childbirth is not the be-all and Mr. D'Arcy, pursuant to notice, asked The end-all of obstetric management at the Minister for Works,- present time. While the technique of ( 1) What vacant land is owned by his natural childbirth may prove satisfying to Department in the Albert Electorate? some patients, it is by no means universally applicable, and the advantages that are (2) What is the intended use of this claimed by those who follow these land? techniques are at times exaggerations of the actual facts." Answer:- (1 and 2) "Educational land-Logan­ ( 4) "I am unaware of the complaints holme, an area of 15 acres-new site for and expressions of concern from Ministers the Loganholme State School; Woodridge and others which the Honourable Member East, an area of 25 acres 2 roods 26 alleges." perches a site for a future primary school; Questions Upon Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Upon Notice 3535

Pine Ridge, an area of 3 acres 3 roods concerned that there is a danger that the 39 · 9 perches being held as the nucleus of policies of the Federal Government could a site for a future primary school; and result in the loss of most, if not all, of our Norwell, an area of 2 acres 3 roods 19·2 coal export trade, and further, I am greatly perches this school is closed but the resi­ disturbed that the Honourable Member dence is being occupied temporarily by a and the rest of the A.L.P. will not speak teacher from a nearby school. Police up for the Queensland workers in this Department-There is no unused vacant important Queensland industry." land. Queensland Housing Commission­ Slacks Creek, 28 sites for houses; Kingston, 34 sites for houses; Nerang, 7 sites for PROHIBITION OF BACKYARD FIRES houses; and Beenleigh, 1 site for aged Mr. Dean, pursuant to notice, asked The persons units." Minister for Health,- Has his attention been drawn to an item in The Courier-Mail of August 23, 1972, CURRENCY REVALUATIONS AND JAPANESE headed "Backyard fire ban could ease COAL EXPORT PRICES pollution", in which is was reported that Mr. Hanson, pursuant to notice, asked The Brisbane would have to consider "no burn" Premier,- days to ease pollution hazards caused by home-owners' backyard fires? If so, in (1) Has he noted that Coal and Allied view of the present serious health problem Industries Pty., New South Wales, has created by the fires, has any consideration recently re-negotiated its contracts with been given to controlling them similarly to Japanese customers and that its shares have the control of industrial air pollution by shown significant rises on the stock legislation? market? Answer:- (2) Has he any knowledge of Queensland companies re-negotiating with Japanese "There is sufficient power in the Clean interests and is he aware of any satisfactory Air Act 1963-1970 to control backyard results? fires. It is obvious however that before taking such steps, alternate methods of (3) As the Commonwealth Government disposal of combustible waste will have to did urge rises and suggest that Australian be provided by the Brisbane City Council coal was being sold too cheaply, is he and other local authorities." aware that Kembla Coal and Coke Ltd., New South Wales, recently secured a 26 per cent. price rise in the export price of NATURAL GAS RESERVES coal supplied to the Japanese by the Mr. Marginson, pursuant to notice, asked company? The Minister for Mines,- ( 4) Is. he aware that Japan has agreed ( 1) What consideration has been given to contmue the principle of meeting to the Government Gas Engineer's report currency revaluation losses incurred by for the year ended June 30, 1972, wherein Australian coal exporters and, if so, is he he comments on the limited reserves of prepared to refute his previously unaccept­ natural gas? able allegations against the policies of the (2) Has the Government or have the Commonwealth Government? gas companies concerned limited the sales of natural gas by not connecting any new Answers:­ consumers and limiting existing consumers (1) "Yes." and is it considered that this should be done? (2) "Yes. Thiess Holdings Ltd. have obtained a substantial increase in the $US ( 3) Are consumers made aware of this price of coal it exports to Japan from the limitation of reserves, as they would South Blackwater Mine." possibly not commit themselves to new plants? (3) "Yes, but this was mainly revalua­ tion compensation." ( 4) Because reserves are limited, why is it proposed that the Dalby Town Council ( 4) "It is not correct to say that the should have a franchise to reticulate Japanese have agreed to meet currency natural gas? losses incurred by coal producers as a result of revaluation. While I understand (5) Will additional reserves be tapped that there are some current contracts with from outlying and smaller fields and, if so, protective clauses covering currency will this increase natural gas prices? revaluations. it generally remains a matter for negotiation by the companies affected. Answers:- In addition, it must be pointed out that ( 1) "Twenty-three wells, including ten these protective clauses introduce a price appraisal and development wells, were competitiveness factor into consideration drilled in the area in 1972. It is hoped which has resulted in some coal producers that additional drilling will prove further not having contracts renewed. I am most reserves of natural gas." 3536 Questions Without Notice [3 APRIL 1973] Questions Without Notice

(2) "It is understood that, as a means As was announced by the company, the of conserving available supplies of natural workshop adjacent to the shipyard can be gas, the gas companies concerned are not used for other fabrication purposes, and the actively seeking further major industrial company has expressed its intention to utilise those facilities for its general fabrica­ loads. It is considered this is a reasonable tion and contracting work. approach." It is little use bemoaning the impending closure without having regard to the main (3) "All new industrial consumers are factors which have brought it about, namely, aware of this." the constant attrition of that section of the enterprise by inter-union demarcation dis­ ( 4) "The small amount of natural gas to putes and the refusal to observe the terms be used in the Dalby area will have no and conditions of employment. significant effect on the overall reserves." ELECTION RESULTS, BRISBANE CITY COUNCIL (5) "This is at present under investiga­ Mr. N. F. JONES: I ask the Minister for tion and any effect on the price of natural Local Government and Electricity: Is he gas is not known." aware that the Australian Labor Party made the legislative changes by his Government in the structure of the Brisbane City Council a QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE major issue in last Saturday's municipal election? In view of the clear expression of PROPOSED CLOSURE OF EVANS DEAKIN public opinion on the question, will he now SHIPYARD, KANGAROO POINT give an under.taking that he will give serious consideration to any submissions by the Lord Mr. BROMLEY: I ask the Minister for Mayor of Brisbane with the object of repeal­ Development and Industrial Affairs: As it has ing this discriminatory legislation? now been officially announced that Evans Deakin's shipyard is to close down, what Mr. McKECHNIE: There is no intent on action is he taking in collaboration with the the part of the Government •to repeal any Premier and Cabinet to place any workers section of the City of Brisbane Act as enacted who may be retrenched in employment within in this House last year. So far as •the election Government departments and firms who are results are concerned, it is now up to the engaged in Government contracts or are elected aldermen to see if they can put into otherwise seeking employees? practice democracy as it is intended in ,the Act. In other words, aldermen will no Mr. CAMPBELL: If alternative action is longer have the excuse that the Lord Mayor not forthcoming, the reported decision of will take no notice of them. They now Evans Deakin to close its shipyard will cause have the power to speak on behalf of .their a serious setback to industrial development in constituents, and l(he ball is in their corner. Queensland. S!ESM!C SURVEY, GREAT BARRIER REEF I think it should be recognised at the outset WATERS that in accordance with the advice received Mr. ARMSTRONG: I ask the Premier: Is from the company, this action has been taken he aware of a report in "The Courier-Mail" after long consideration of all the factors of Saturday, 31 March, wherein Senator involved. For several years now, in that Georges was reported to have said at a section of its vast operations the company meeti'D.g of the Barrier Reef Committee in has incurred losses year after year. Although Brisbane that the Federal Government had some portion of the losses could be attributed not been aware that an American seismic to other causes, it is quite obvious that the ship had been surveying Barrier Reef waters? constant industrial friction and labour dis­ Is there any faotual basis that would enable turbances at the shipyard have been largelv the Premier -to give the House an assurance responsible for the heavy annual losses. It that the claim by Senator Georges is would be fruitless for such a large industry incorrect? to continue if it cannot be assured of com­ pliance with awards by the employees Mr. BJELKE-PETERSEN: I have seen the engaged therein. What has happened at this report referred to. It would appear tha.t shipyard bears a parallel to the tremendous Senator Georges did not acquaint himself loss of working hours which occurred at fully with the facts of the matter prior to the Gladstone alumina plant prior to the makin" his statement. Had he done so, agreement that was reached in October last. he wo~ld have learnt that a geophysicist from the Commonwealth Bureau of Mineral The honourable member asked what the Resources boarded the ship at Townsville. Government is doing. The Government and the company have been in consultation on Mr. I•'. P. Moore interjected. this very difficult matter, and the honourable Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The member can rest assured that any action the honourable member for Mourilyan is now Government can take to assist the company warned under the provisions of Standing in this particular problem will be taken. Order 123A. Judges' Salaries and Pensions [3 APRIL 1973] Act Amendment Bill 3537

Mr. BJELKE PETERSEN: This represen­ l'he salaries and allowances of ,rhe judges tative of ,the Bureau of Mineral Resources of the Supreme and District Courts were boarded the ship at Townsville, at the last increased on 21 April 1971. The invitation of the owners of the vessel. salaries and allowances presently payable to them are as follows: the Chief Justice of BooKS FOR SCHOOL LIBRARIES the Supreme Court receives a salary of $23,600 and an allowance of $1,200, whilst Mr. ROW: I ask the Minister for Educa­ the other puisne judges receive $22,200 in tion and Cultural Activities: In view of his salary; the Chairman of the District Court reply to my question on notice earlier today, receives a salary of $16,450 and an allowance will he give an assurance that all available of $1,500, whilst the remaining District Court printing facilities, both inside and outside judges receive $16,450 in salary. Australia, will be given equal opportunity to provide books and other publications that The salaries and allowances now payable are so urgently required to build school to Queensland judges are well bel'ow those libraries up to the desired standard? payable to judges of other States in Aus­ tralia, and even some of these are currently Sir ALAN FLETCHER: I can give the unde-r review. For the information of assurance that wherever and whenever it is honourable members, I have prepared a list necessary to take action to relieve any of the salaries and allowances presently shortage of textbooks or other books, the payable to judges o.f other States, which I department and the Government will take now table. I 'seek leave of the Committee that action. to have it incorporated in "Hansard". WORKERS' COMPENSATION ACT The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Is it the wish AMENDMENT BILL of the Committee that the list creferred to by the Minister be tabled and inserted in THIRD READING "Hansard"? Bill, on motion of Sir Gordon Chalk, read a third time. Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. HOUSTON: I rise to a point of JUDGES' SALARIES AND PENSIONS order. Could the Minister make a copy of ACT AMENDMENT BILL the list available to the Opposition so that INITIATION IN COMMITTEE honourable members on this side of the Chamber will have an opportunity to refer (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. to it in the debate? Wharton, Burnett, in the chair)

Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah~Minister for Mr. KNOX: I will table it now and a Justice) (12.10 p.m.): I move- copy will be available to the honourable gentleman immediately. "That a Bill be introduced to amend the Judges' Salaries and Pensions Act Whereupon the honourable gentleman laid 1967-1971 in certain particulars." the list on the table.

SALARIES AND ALLOWANCES OF JUDGES AT 27 MARCH 1973

------~ ---c------,---~-~----~~~------~------1 New I I I' Australian South Victoria South I' West Tasmania Capital

______Australia ------~W~a~l~es1 _A_u~st~ra~l~ia_ , _T~e~r~n~·t~or~y- 1 Supreme Court- I $ $ 1 $ 1 $ $ $ Chief Justice (a) 29,800 29,500 28,200 27,000 I1 22,500 (b) 1,150 1,500 . . . . Other Judges (a) 27,400 26,700 25,750 24,000 20,000 22,000 (b) 875 1,250 . . .. • 1,000 District Court- I I Chairman (a) 24,650 22,200 22,000 i 20,880 (b) I 875 !,500 . . I .•

Other Judges~~~ 22,~gg 2f:6gg il! 2.0:200 ~~--~-9.• _44_0_ _----I~----

Last Increased . . 1 January 1971 13 April 1 January 11 July 1969 1972 1972 1973 1972

------~------~----- ·- (a) salaries. (b) allowances. Mr. KNOX: The proposed Bill seeks to receive a salary of $29,000 and an allowance provide for the salaries and allowances of of $1,500, the remaining puisne judges will judges of the Supreme and District Court of receive a salary of $25,000 and an allowance Queensland to be increased on and from of $1,000, the Chairman of the District 1 April 1973 so that the Chief Justice will Court will receive a salary of $23,000 and 3538 Judges' Salaries and Pensions [3 APRIL 1973] Act Amendment Bill a~ a!lowance o~ $1,500, and the remaining $70 a week has to meet that increase, just D1stnct Court Judges will receive a salary as a judge, whether he be a puisne judge or of $22,000. the Chairman of the District Court, has that The Bill also provides that the salaries additional call on his purse. If there and all.ow~nces of the judges of the Supreme is a 6 per cent increase in the cost of and D1stn~t Courts. will be adjusted by the living, I believe that everybody should get Governor m Council each year in the same only the extra cost involved. If the cost of manner as is provided for the future adjust­ living goes up by $500 in a year, everybody ment of salaries and allowances of members should get $500 rather than an increase of of this Parliament-namely, .to accord with 6 per cent. I accept the principle of the the variation which has occurred to 30 June trade-union movement that there should be a in each year in the index published by the margin for skill, but let this be reviewed at Bureau of Census and Statistics for the certain times. We are following an extremely average minimum weekly wage rates for dangerous trend that is not only creating adult males in Queensland. inflation but is having a serious effect on our economy. Honourable members will be well aware that it is the responsibility of Parliament to Only this morning I read in a newspaper ensure that our judges are adequately printed in Gladstone that Dr. Paul Samuel­ remunerated for the important and demand­ san, a famous American economist and ing work they are called upon to perform. writer of economic textbooks, said on his recent visit to Australia that "the only group I commend the motion to the Committee. to suffer badly in times of inflation were the pensioners and those on fixed income Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (12.13 p.m.): benefits." That newspaper article further Members of the Opposition fully realise tha1 in comparison with those paid in othe; stated- States, the salaries of judges in Queensland " He said the richer people were the less they tended to be hurt because they could ~re low, and we accept the need for an mcrease bec::-use we believe in the principle hedge against inflation by buying stocks that a man IS worthy of his hire. However and land and by borrowing money." I am ~ little bit concerned that we may Naturally we accept that. What I was par­ be takmg the wrong attitude to salaries ticularly interested in was the programme generally, and I intend to expand briefly on he outlined and the details he gave by way that. of comparison between wages and various On 14 December 1967, the Chief Justice costs in October 1963 and those in October of the Supreme Court of Queenslamd received 1972, and in some cases in 1973. It is noted $17,300. Now, only six years later, it is that the average earnings for full-time proposed that he should receive $29 000 employees other than managerial for October with an a?diti said that one must always ensure Such costs are not going to be met only that JUdges are not open to graft and can by the Senior Puisne Judge and the Chair­ never be bribed in any 'Yay and, for that man of the District Court. These costs are reason, they must be paid adequately. met by every person in the community. In 1962 haircuts cost 50c. I think the figure in I. think that both these contentions are this article for 1973 of $1.10 is wrong. I valid and the principles must be accepted paid $1.50 for a haircut the other day. But I wonder how far we are to go. At These costs are met by every person. the moment we are following a rule that the .rich will get richer and the poor will Mr. R. E. Moore: I can get my hair cut contmue to .get poorer, and this will go on for $1.00. and on until a break from this policy is made somewhere along the line. I realise Mr. WRIGHT: I am surprised to hear that a pers?n on a gross salary of $29,000 that the honourable member gets a haircut. I thought he would get a massage of some ~ year receives . a lot less than that because mcome tax levied by the Federal Govern­ sort. ment, r~gardless of its political colour, is I could go on with these comparisons, but substantial. I will not delay the Committee. It is appro­ Let us look back at why increases are priate that we should look at such com­ gran~ed. As ~he Minister said, this is the parisons and accept the fact that prices are first mcrease smce 21 April 1971 almost two increasing and that the increased cost of years ago. In that time there 'has been a living is being felt mainly by the lower­ treme_ndous increase in the cost of living. If, income groups. say, It has been $5.00 a year, the average Just as honourable members of Parliament person on the penswn, the average person now have their salaries decided by the on $48 a week and the average person on Governor in Council, the rule could be the Judges' Salaries and Pensions [3 APRIL 1973] Act Amendment Bill 3539 same for judges, but somewhere along the so in this instance, too, by providing that all line we have to look at the increases in future increases to judges' salaries will be salaries and wages. The rich are getting fixed at a flat rate. richer and the poor are getting poorer. I It is quite apparent that our economists are hope that some day, regardless of the unable to contain inflation. They simply do Government in office, cognisance will be not know where to start. If an economist taken of that fact. were asked why inflation continues at the The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! rate of 5 or 7 per cent, I am sure he would There is too much audible conversation on be unable to answer the question. About my left. three years ago at a gathering at the Mackay Sugar Research Station, Professor Gynther Mr. JENSEN (Bundaberg) (12.19 p.m.): I was asked why inflation could not be halted. support the statement of my colleague the He facetiously replied, "Even if Lou Jensen shadow Minister for Justice (Mr. Wright) was Treasurer of the State, the situation about the rich getting richer and the poor would be the same." It is time that some new getting poorer. Probably the passage of the thinking was brought to bear upon the prob­ Bill will mean the start up of the merry-go­ lem of inflation. round again. As the honourable member for Rockhampton said, we do not mind a rise The Government is the party responsible in wages because we believe that a man is for our current rate of inflation. It should worthy of his hire, but the increases granted have the courage to proclaim that in future by this Bill will start up the merry-go-round all basic wage increases will be fixed at a again, and teachers and public servants will flat rate, across the board. If the cost of be looking for their annual increases of 10 living increases by $2.50 a week, all workers per cent. This only gives rise to inflation. in the community-whether they be judges, businessmen or labourers-should receive an As the honourable member for Rock­ increase of $2.50. Similarly, if the cost of hampton has said, income tax accounts for living rises by 50c a week, all workers should a large proportion of very high salaries. receive a wage increase of 50c a week. However, for the moment I am not concerned about that; what I am worried about is the Mr. Hinze: Even 50c for judges? way in which wage increases are fixed to meet the rise in the cost of living. By all Mr. JENSEN: Yes, if the cost of living means, have margins for skill, but all salaries rises by 50c. should be increased at a flat rate. Percentage Mr. Hinze: You can't be "fair dinkum". increases in salaries are quite anomalous. For example, if salaries are increased by 5 per Mr. JENSEN: I am "fair dinkum". Why cent to overcome a rise of, say, $2.50 a week should a judge be given an increase of $30 in the cost of living, the following anomalous to help meet a rise in the cost of living of, situation could result: a worker who receives say, $2.50, when at the same time a labourer $50 a week would be given an increase of receives an increase of only $2.50? The $2.50; a worker who is paid $100 a week increase in pay should cover only the rise in would receive an increase of $5; a salary of the cost of living because the worker pays $200 a week would attract an increase of $10; the same price for, say, his butter or a salary of $300 a week, an increase of $15; cigarettes as everyone else. and a salary of $600 a week, which is the salary that some of the judges are paid, would Mr. Bjelke-Petersen: Can you tell me why attract an increase of $30 a week. Why Mr. Whitlam should get $56,000? should a person in receipt of such a high wage be given an increase of that magnitude Mr. JENSEN: Can the Premier say why to overcome a rise of $2.50 in the cost of he should get $30,000? living? An Oppusition Member: He gets $40,000. It is about time that the trade unions and the economists brought some clear thinking Mr. JENSEN: Can the Premier tell me to bear on this issue. The worker hopes why he should get as much as that? that what he loses on the merry-go-round I believe in people being paid for the he will pick up on the swings. He has no hope in the world of picking up. As for the work they do. pensioners, their situation is even worse. Mr. Wright: After all, Mr. Whitlam is Mr. Hinze: What about the farmer? worth three times as much as the Premier. Mr. JENSEN: I realise that. And the Mr. JENSEN: The honourable member can talk about the farmers; I am speaking up for Premier must concede that he is personally the workers, particularly the lower-paid ones. not worth $40,000. The Minister has said that in future Mr. Low: How much do you intend to increases in judges' salaries will be fixed give back? yearly. From time to time the Government claims that it takes the lead in legislation Mr. JENSEN: I am not going to give throughout the Commonwealth. Let it do anything back. 3540 Judges' Salaries and Pensions (3 APRIL 1973] Act Amendment Bill

I am trying to get this Parliament to pass when wages are adjusted to compensate for some common-sense legislation, following increases in the cost of living. If the cost which we could go to the Commonwealth and of living increased by $2.50, I would not the other States and say, "We have made mind an all-round increase of $2.50 being an attempt to contain inflation." America paid to labourers, tradesmen, public servants, attempted to control inflation by imposing a the Premier and me. If, tomorrow, the moratorium on wages and prices. No doubt Premier were to introduce a Bill providing the Minister will tell me that this is a Federal that, in future, parliamentarians, judges, matter. workers and all others shall receive an across-the-board, flat increase, I would be Mr. Sherrington: Are you sure he would willing to cross the floor to support him. not say, "See Clem Jones." Mr. Bjelke-Petersen: And then the unions Mr. JENSEN: I do not think he would would fight 1that principle to the bitter end, say that. for all they were worth. To justify the salary increases, the Minister said that Queensland judges' salaries are Mr. JENSEN: They would not. They below those in other States. But that is not want this to happen. They realise that a valid excuse for increases. If anyone wants percentage increases are getting out of hand. to live in Canberra or Melbourne he is at They realise 1that there must be a margin liberty to do so, but l want to live in for skill. Queensland. Whether I get $2,000 or Mr. Bjelke-Petersen: They would not $10,000, I intend to live here; I will not leave want their salaries or wages, which are at this State for money. present well above those of the workers, brought down to the lower level. Mr. W. D. Hewitt: You should realise how quickly the Public Service would be eroded Mr. JENSEN: I will conclude now. I if we did not maintain wage parity. wanted to listen 1to the facetious interjection Mr. JENSEN: That would be terrible, by the Premier. wouldn't it? There will always be others Mr. R. E. MOORE (Windsor) (12.31 p.m.): coming on, and there are only so many jobs All I can say about the speech of the hon­ in any sphere. The positions would soon be ourable member for Bundaberg is that he filled. If public servants want to go, we almost mentioned judges' salaries on one should let them go. Queensland has a won­ or two occasions. I was amazed to hear the derful climate and environment and these honourable member for Rockhampton claim matters, too, should be taken into considera­ that unionists should receive an across-the­ tion. If we followed the Minister's reasoning, board increase, because every trade unionist we could well say that everyone should go l know talks about a percentage margin for to Weipa because the wages in Brisbane are skill. They all want an across-the-board rise not nearly as high as those paid there. The and .then a percentage increase in margin Minister's argument was stupid and does not as well. So I cannot understand how this carry any weight with me. argument could be valid. I do not believe that salary rates are Mr. Wright: You weren't listening. everything. Our economists should engage in new thinking to contain inflation and hold Mr. R. E. MOORE: I was listening. The wages at a reasonable level. In my opinion honourable member did not know what he no man is worth over $30,000 a year. How­ was talking about. ever, in view of the present-day wage I would be happy if all salaries through­ structure, we must pay these salaries. out the State, or ·the nation for that matter, were fixed by one court. The Industrial Mr. Hinze: What about Gough? Commission should be able to fix salaries for Mr. .JENSEN: I do not believe that the judges, parliamentarians, public servants and honourable member and the Premier are everyone else. What dogs this nation is worth what they are getting. If the honour­ that too many bodies fix wages, with one able member had been listening, he would body vying against rthe other. Whilst this have heard me say that, if the Premier is is not the prime cause of inflation it is, getting $40,000 a year, Mr. Whitlam is worth together with costs, a major factor. what he is getting. Mr. Sherrington: Our salaries should be tied to 'those of public servants. Mr. Lee interjected. Mr. R. E. MOORE: The salaries of public Mr. .JENSEN: The honourable member servants could be tied to ours, instead of comes here merely to fill in his time. He is ours being tied to theirs. After all, we are simply a number, and the Government pays the highest court in rthe land, and I do no attention to him. not see why it should work in reverse, as The time is ripe for new thinking by the the honourable member for Salisbury Government and the unions on the wage suggests. structure. If the margin for skill puts the Mr. Sherrington: You have just been tradesman's rate $20 above that paid to the talking about salaries being fixed by the labourer, the margin should not be increased Industrial Commission. Judges' Salaries and Pensions [3 APRIL 1973) Act Amendment Bill 3541

Mr. R. E. MOORE: I am happy to make this nature there would be a general can­ my submission; I was simply replying to vassing .of the wage structure within the the honourable member's interjection. commumty. At the same time, I feel that I should direct my remarks to the purpose of Mr. Sherrington interjected. the Bill. Mr. R. E. MOORE: Parliament is a Jaw I should make the observation-! do not unto itself and can legislate as it chooses. think it was made during the debate-that It is logical to argue in favour of percentage the salaries of judges in this State have in increases~the higher the salary, the greater recent years tended to Jag far behind those the increase. However, I have often sug­ of judges in the other States. Even with the gested that, regardless of whether it is applied to the salaries of judges, members of Parlia­ increases proposed in the Bill, the salaries ment, public servants, or any other workers, of Queensland judges will still be lower than a formula should be evolved on the prin­ those of judges in New South Wales and ciple of so many points for skill, obnoxious Victoria, and more or less the same as those work, necessary study and brain fag, wi,th of South Australian judges. perhaps a deduction for security and an addition for insecurity. Employers and I do not think it could be said that the employees should meet around the table and passage of this Bill wiJI stimulate inflation, evolve such a formula, which could be nor would I think that that would be reviewed every three to five years. suggested, because, in matters of salary Mr. Wrigbt: You agree that percentage adjustment, Supreme and District Court increases can be unfair, so you are agreeing judges are, as it were, at the end of the with what I said. line. By no means could it be suggested that they set the pace in the fixation of Mr. R. E. MOORE: I said that percentage salaries. I think members of Parliament are increases could be unfair, but I do not agree in much the same position, as any salary with what the honourable member said. He says that if there is a rise of $5 00 a year increases that they receive flow on from in the cost of living, everyone should receive those that have already been received by the $500. But he then said that workers have rest of the community. I do not think that to be given their margins for skill. Margins is a serious handicap, but I think it would are calculated as a percentage of the base be better, if possible, to have them move at rate. This means that whilst skilled workers would get the cost-of-living increase of $500, the same rate, and at the same time, as they would also receive an increase in salaries and wages move in the community margins. In the result, they would receive generally. However, the very machinery of more than $500. That is where the honour­ legislation is against such a proposition. To able member's argument falls down. overcome that problem, there will be, as I Opposition Members interjected. mentioned earlier, annual adjustments of judges' salaries. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I remind the honourable member for Windsor Mr. Wright: Based on what? that there is no occasion to answer all interjections. Mr. KNOX: Based on the formula that applies to the salaries of members of this Mr. R. E. MOORE: The honourable Legislature. When the salaries of members are adjusted in the future, judges' salaries member for Bundaberg made a statement to will also be adjusted. Such adjustments will the effect that there is no need to give still be subject to the veto of Parliament judges higher salaries simply because following the tabling, in due course, of the increases have been given in other States. I relevant documents. This means that the remind him of the principle of "like with Legislature will stiii have control over the situation, even though there wiii be annual like" so often advanced by the trade-union adjustments in the future. In the case of movement. This principle is followed in the first adjustment, the period will be 15 the determination of the wages and salaries months to overcome the problem presented of railwaymen, transport workers, public by the period from 1 April to the end of servants, and many others. Applications are June of this year. made by unions to all industrial tribunals on Motion (Mr. Knox) agreed to. the basis of "like with like" comparisons. That disposes of that argument used by the Resolution reported. honourable member. FIRST READING Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister for Justice) (12.36 p.m.), in reply: It is Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. probably to be expected that in a debate of Knox, read a first time. 3542 Governor's Salary Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

GOVERNOR'S SALARY ACT year . ~as seen the introduction of new AMENDMENT BILL amemttes following new scientific develop­ ments. For instance, I dte the introduction INITIATION IN COMMITTEE of refrigerators in the home to replace ice­ (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. chests, which, in turn, superseded the meat­ Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) chest under the house. We went from wireless to black and white television and Hon. J. BJELKE-PETERSEN (Barambah the next step will be colour .television. -Premier) (12.42 p.m.): I move- As couples in each new generation embark "Tbat a Bill be introduced to amend the on the seas of matrimony, the young bride Governor's Salary Act 1872-1971 in a hopes to go into a home of her own con­ certain particular." taining all the amenities in her parents' The purpose of the Bill is to increase the rate home, and the young bridgroom naturally of salary payable to His Excellency the wants to provide ~hem for her. As time Governor from $26,500 to $35,000 per moves on, a constant increase in the pur­ annum as from 1 April 1973. My colleague chasing power is required to buy not only the Minister for Justice and Attorney-General the basic essentials of life but also all has already introduced a Bill to increase the modern amenities. salaries of judges of the Supreme Court and Another factor in salary determination is the District Court as from 1 April 1973, and .the need to provide a margin for skill. The included in that measure is a provision skill may be the responsibility a per­ increasing the total remuneration payable to son has to accept, or the knowledge or the Chief Justice from $24,800 to $30,500 technical skill he requires. In some cases per annum. it may be the danger associated with an The Committee will be aware that it is occupation. Also taken into account are customary to provide an appropriate margin ·the energy and self-denial required of a between the emoluments of His Excellency person to qualify himself for a particular the Governor and those of the Chief Justice, position. Over the years little study has and the proposed legislation increasing the been made of the relativi,ty of various occupa­ Governor's salary is in accordance with this tions and callings. It would be an interesting acceptd practice and procedure. Whilst it exercise to determine exactly the relative is appreciated that the emoluments now importance of many of the occupa,tions in proposed for these two very important offices the community, and also the skill and respon­ widens the existing margin, it must be borne sibility required in those occupations. in mind that the salary and allowance of the The third factor in salary and wage fixation Chief Justice will, in future, be adjusted on is very important. It is productivity or a yearly basis in the same manner as is relative productivity. I separate the two presently provided for members of this because productivity in some industries is Parliament. By increasing the margin at this a physical .thing that can be measured time, it is felt that the need for amending according to the articles produced. In legislation of this nature will not be as other fields of endeavour, productivity can frequent as it has in the past. be of a more theoretical nature. In adminis­ I feel that now is an appropriate moment tration, skilled techniques of a higher to pay a tribute to the manner in which His standard are required for particular jobs. Excellency has discharged his responsibilities In considering salaries and wages, at no since he assumed oftlce just over 12 months stage can we take just one occupation. I ago. Already Sir Colin and Lady Hannah agree that from time to time there must be have undertaken extensive travel commit­ :m upward lift in salaries and wages on ments in our State, and it is now obvious perhaps a percentage basis, this being the that we have in His Excellency a most worthy simplest way of doing it. But at other times, representative of Her Majesty the Queen. when the only factor involved is a rise in In fact, I am sure that the people of the cost of living, the increase in wages and Queensland are appreciative of the very fine salaries should be a flat amount to all work of Sir Colin and Lady Hannah. employees. The ideal answer lies somewhere I commend the motion to the Committee. between a flat increase on every occasion and a percentage rise on every occasion. Mr. HOUSTON (Bulimba-Leader of the At this stage we are waiting for the Com­ Opposition) (12.45 p.m.): When we are monwealth industrial tribunal to make a debating a Bill of this kind we think of the determination in the National Wage Case. I salaries paid to all members of the com­ congratulate the unions and the Federal Gov­ munity, and we look for some relativity ernment on at least coming ~o grips with the between those of various people. No-one problem. Naturally, we are withholding our would doubt that salaries and wages are comments in many respects until the Com­ primarily based on three factors. The first monwealth industrial tribunal has an oppor­ is the need to allow a person to rear his tunity to look at some of the problems family and live at a certain standard. Of associated with wage and salary justice. course, the standard varies from time to The previous Bill fixed salaries of judges. time depending on the circum~tances within When the Judges' Salaries and Pensions Act that community. Over the last century, each was last amended, two years ago, I referred Governor's Salary Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3543 to relativity, and conceded that certain highly dealt with legislation to increase the paid officers in this State could not be Governor's salary, and a few months later, regarded purely and simply as public in April 1971, we dealt with similar legis­ servants, whose .salaries are usually deter­ lation. Without a clear indication that the mined by the Industrial Commission. At that sum fixed by the Bill is to be the Governor's time I referred particularly to the salaries of salary for the next three to five years, the the Governor, the judiciary and the Cabinet Premier owes the Committee a clear Ministers. I agree that some relativity should explanation of the way in which the 32 be maintained between the salaries paid to per cent increase was arrived at. The the occupants of those positions. projected salary of $35,000 is a good, round Whether or not we believe that a Minister figure, but I should like details of the is carrying out his duties efficiently, we method of determining it. recognise the responsibilities attaching to his Mr. HINZE (South Coast) (12.57 p.m.): position. Naturally the position of Minister of I do not intend to deal with the matters the Crown would be regarded as the junior raised by the Leader of the Opposition, of the three positions to which I have just although some of them are worthy of con­ referred. However, it seems to be ridiculous sideration. For a long time I have held the that a Minister, for example, the Minister view that the salaries of Ministers are not for Justice, should receive an annual salary commensurate with those of their under of $17,410 whilst the Chief Justice is paid a secretaries. The Leader of the Opposition salary of $29,000. Incidentally, I am exclud­ made that point quite clear when he com­ ing allowances from these figures. Even the pared the salary paid to the Governor with most junior member of the judiciary, a those of the Premier and Cabinet Ministers. District Court judge, receives a salary $4,590 in excess of that paid to the Minister for For many years Parliament has adjusted Justice, who is responsible for the adminis­ the salaries of the Governor and members tration of justice. Furthermore, a District of the judiciary. The Year Book contains Court judge's salary is only $140 less than this statement dated 24 January 1861: "An that paid to the Premier. Act to provide for the Augmentation of the Governor's Salary." At that time the l\1r. l-Haze: It is out of focus. schedule read, "Provided by Civil List annexed to Order in Council, £2,500; Mr. HOUSTON: Completely out of focus. increase in Governor's Salary, £1,500." In Over the past two years the salary of the 1973 we are considering a salary of $35,000. Chief Justice has increased by 22.6 per cent, and the Minister has said that his salary is I should like to know whether Sir Colin only increased to keep pace with that paid to Hannah is to be the last Governor of the Chief Justices in other States. I have no Queensland, as I gain the impression that quarrel with maintaining relativity under the Commonwealth Government intends to existing conditions. However, I hope that make the States redundant. It has already these conditions and relativity generally will eliminated the Honours List, and is now be reviewed. trying to deal direct with local authorities. In fact, it has said that it intends to deal As to the Governor, his salary will be with the City of Brisbane direct. increased by $8,500 to $35,000. As I have saiJ, the Chief Justice's salary is $29,000. Mr. Jensen: Are you worried? By comparison the Premier receives $22,140, Mr. HINZE: I am not at all worried; and the salary of a Cabinet Minister is half but if the honourable member were interested that paid to the Governor. With respect, it in the seat he represents he would be seems to me that we have allowed the worried. situation to get completely out of hand. I do not for one moment suggest that the Mr. Houston: Don't you agree that local salaries of the Ministers should be increased. authorities want to deal direct with the I believe that the public have accepted the Federal Government? method of fixing salaries paid to Ministers, and, for that matter, back-benchers, too. I Mr. HINZE: The Leader of the Opposition cannot see why the relativity of these salaries knows as well as I do that local authorities should suddenly be completely upset. The in Queensland are wards of the State; they are the third arm of Government, under the Governor is now to receive twice as much State's control. I do not suggest that local as a Minister of the Crown, who has far authorities should not have access to the more responsibilities towards the citizens than Loan Council in a proper way, but I am has the Governor, although the Governor strongly opposed to the Commonwealth plays a very important role in our constitu­ Government making funds available direct tional set-up. to local authorities, bypassing the sovereign I trust that the Premier in his reply, will State of Queensland. The Commonwealth explain why it was necessary to increase the Government's actions, however, do not stop Governor's salary by 32 per cent. The at that. It is offering funds for tertiary Premier said that the Governor's salary will education and a meeting is to be held next not be adjusted annually, but there is week to deal with Commonwealth finance nothing to stop a similar Bill being intro­ for housing. I believe that very soon, in line duced next year. In September 1970 we with the attitude adopted by Whitlam and 3544 Justices Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill the present Commonwealth Government, the The proposal to eliminate the endorsement sovereign State of Queensland and this of service on a summons will also be a Parliament will become redundant. The time-saver for police officers and court Commonwealth has eliminated the Honours officials. This function has now outlived List and is now making offers of funds for its usefulness and is in effect only an unsworn various functions under the control of State duplication of the affidavit of service, which Governments. is being retained. This is something that concerns me greatly. Another proposal, which it is considered It is happening in every walk of life and in will effect savings in time and expense, will every department throughout rthe State. enable a defendant who fails rto answer a Every week our powers as a sovereign State complaint and against whom a warrant is are being gradually eroded. As I have said, issued, upon his apprehension and with his the question I want answered is whether Sir consent, to be dealt with before a Magistrates Colin Hannah is ·to be the last Governor of Court in the district in which he is appre­ Queensland. hended. It is presently provided that where Motion (Mr. Bjelke-Petersen) agreed to. a case is heard in a Magistrates Court in the absence of the defendant, that court, Resolution reported. upon an application by or on behalf of the defendant within seven days of the decision, FIRST READING may for such reason as it thinks proper Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. grant a rehearing of the complaint. From Bjelke-Petersen, read a first time. experience it has been found that the period of seven days is too sho11t to ensure that [Sitting suspended from 1.2 to 2.15 p.m.] justice is done in all cases. The proposed Bill will increase from seven days to 28 JUSTICES ACT AMENDMENT BILL the period within which an application may be made for a rehearing. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Other amendments proposed will provide (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. that no objection shall be taken to the Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) validity of a summons on certain grounds; amend the words addressed to a defendant Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister af·ter an examination of witnesses in relation for Justice) (2.16 p.m.): I move- to an indictable offence; repeal the require­ 'That a Bill be introduced to amend ·the ment of justices to issue their warrants when Justices Acts 1886 to 1968 in certain they adjudge a defendant to be imprisoned, particulars." as this is already provided for; make it The Justices Acts and the Magistrates Courts mandatory for the clerk of the court or a Acts have long been in need of a complete justice to issue a warrant to enforce a court overhaul to conform with modern conditions. order and increase the period of imprison­ A committee comprising representatives of ment which may be imposed in default of the legal professions and a number of payment of a fine. Government departments has been examining I commend the motion. these Acts for this purpose. The subject is also included in the second approved pro­ Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (2.19 p.m.): gramme of the Law Reform Commission, The Minister pointed out that the Bill has and it is proposed that the working paper of been introduced because the Justices Act is the committee be referred to the Law Reform being overhauled. Every honourable member Commission for consideration. who is interested in this aspect of legislation The task to be performed is a mammoth will agree that this is warranted. I was one and will take considerable time. In the pleased to hear the Minister say that this meantime, it is considered desirable that a matter will be •the subject of further con­ number of amendments be made to the sideration by the Law Reform Commission. Justices Acts which will effect savings in I hope that, in the near future, we will see time for the Magistrates Courts, the courts' the fulfilment of that consideration. officers and the police, as well as savings in The proposals as briefly outlined by the expense for the Crown. Minister will be looked at in detail by the It is proposed to alter the method of Opposition. However, as this subject involves service of summonses, which are now served justices of the peace, it might be worth while by registered A.R. Post, and to remove the canvassing some of ·the opinions that people necessity of formal service of a minute of hold on the activities and jurisdicition gener­ conviction as a condition precedent to the ally of justices of the peace. issue of a warrant to enforce a comt order. It is a great pity that there are i•n Queens­ Whilst the defendant's rights will not be land today so many thou,ands of justices of affected, it is in this area that considerable the peace who perform none of the duties savings of police officers' time will be associated with that office. Whilst the effected. This will be due to an anticipated Minister is considering the Justices Act, I marked decrease in the number of sum­ hope he will give some thought to this monses and minutes required to be served by aspect of it. There are thousands of men police. and women who have "J.P." after their Justices Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3545 names but who never undertake any of out and financed b.Y the State. It is not the duties set out in the schedule to the good enough to have a system of justice on Justices Act. In many cases, "LP." is merely the cheap. Such a course should be brief a status symbol. "Jonathan Brown, J.P." but comprehensive, and should include mat­ may look well if Mr. Brown is seeking ters such as judicial discretion, impartiality, election to a council, and "Fred Williams, rules of evidence, and also admi·nistrative J.P." may look impres>Sive if Mr. Williams functions and techniques required in the role is seeking election to a community organiza­ of a J.P. tion. Whilst these points are not particularly It is a great pity that "J.P." becomes pertinent to the Bill, they should be given little more than a status symbol, because some consideration. There are too many section 6 of the Justices Act provides that justices of the peace in Queensland; they the Governor in Council may appoint as are not carrying out their functions; and it many justices a

Unfortunately, in meting out justice the In effect, every chairman of a local authority occupant of the bench, whether he be a judge and every mayor of a city are automatically or a justice of the peace, is hamstrung by justices of the peace. However, an elected the laws of the land. I therefore hope that member of the Legislative Assembly, if he the Law Reform Commission will give earnest is not a justice of the peace, has to apply consideration to putting teeth into future to become one. legislation of this kind. Too often are I support the suggestion by the honour­ criminals who throw bricks through plate­ able member for Salisbury that a roll of glass windows, steal unlocked cars or commit justices of the peace be kept at police burglary in houses that may have been stations. Quite often I receive calls from unlocked allov.ed to go virtually scot-free. people in different suburbs inquiring where Perhaps 50 or 100 years ago such leniency the nearest justice of the peace may be may have satisfied the demand for justice. found. Such rolls, particularly in provincial These days, however, heavy penalties need to cities, should be kept up to date. be imposed upon those who commit offences calling for severe punishment. Mr. Bromley: I supply my own lists to Our newspapers are full of reports of the post office and the local police stations. serious crimes. Australia has the doubtful distinction of having a higher incidence of Mr. R. JONES: That is a very good idea mass rape than any other nation in the world. in a metropolitan suburb, but it is very In many rape cases it is the victim, not the difficult to keep the list up to date for a rapist, who appears to be on trial, and in provincial city. some cases the girl rather than the men who rape her is made out to be the criminal. It should be remembered that members of Parliament, including the Leader of the lt is important that the Law Reform Com­ Opposition, are allowed to nominate only mission consider these problems expeditiously, four justices of the peace every quarter, yet because the longer the delay the more will a Minister may nominate an unlimited num­ criminals commit offences in the belief that ber. At one stage, under Labor, the Leader they will not be severely punished. I com­ of the Opposition, like Ministers of the mend the amendments outlined by the Crown, could nominate an unlimited number Minister, but I suggest that we in this of justices of the peace. I am sure that Parliament should be in earnest to ensure that all members of this Assembly have a big we have laws commensurate with the prob­ backlog of people waiting to become justices lems confronting us, not those drafted in the of the peace. horse-and-buggy days. Mr. R. E. Moore: There are 40,000 of Mr. R. JONES (Cairns) (2.41 p.m.): I them now. first wish to support the comment of the shadow Minister for Justice (Mr. Wright) 1\lr. R. JONES: I think that point was that justices of the peace are honorary pub­ covered adequately by the honourable mem­ lic servants. We are getting these first-class ber for Rockhampton, who suggested that citizens, these honorary public servants, on we should consider the duties of justices the cheap. In effect, we charge them $6.30 of the peace and appoint only people who to be listed as justices of the peace so that felt they were needed in the community. they can witness signatures on affidavits and Persons would not then ask to be nominated other documents. as justices of the peace merely for the status In many instances, the screed issued to symbol of the title. They should be expected justices of the peace is probably received to work hard at their duties once they are and taken as read. I agree with the state­ given the title. ment by the honourable member for Rock­ hampton that annual seminars should be Justices of the peace are important in held for justices of the peace, with the pro­ all areas but, in North Queensland, we have viso that justices of the peace shall attend a problem. People transfer to the North at least one so that they may be informed to obtain promotion. Some of them, par­ of their duties and responsibilities by some­ ticularly :those who work for finance com­ one in authority. panies, insurance companies and banks con­ As the local authority elections were held tact :their local member of Parliament to be last Saturday, it should be noted-- nominated for appointment as justices of the peace. They stay only a couple of years Mr. Sherringion: It was not an election in and transfer again to the South. They are Brisbane; it was a walk-over. then lost to the North. I suggest that, before Mr. R. JONES: That is so, and the situa­ a person is appointed as a J.P., he should tion was the same in Cairns. be a resident of an area for at least two It may be of interest to quote section years. R of the Justices Acts, 1886 to 1968, which Something else that I did not know until states- recently is that people fined for drink-driving "The chairman of a Local Authority are not entitled to be appointed as justices shall, by virtue of his office and without of the peace. I understand one fellow was any further commission or authority than rather embarrassed to find that he could not this Act, be a justice of and for the State." be appointed because he had been found 3548 Justices Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill guilty of drink-driving. Had this been more practice. I am vehemently opposed to it. I widely known, perhaps I could have believe that every honourable member, influenced the applicant not to apply-- including the Minister for Justice, would oppose such a proposal. Mr. Wright: In some cases it could seriously affect a person's career if he could not become a justice of the peace. Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister for Justice) (2.50 p.m.), in reply: I particularly Mr. R. JONES: It could-particularly per­ thank the honourable member for Stafford sons in the Public Curator Office or the for his contribution; he was the only one Justice Department. A person who is unfor­ who spoke to the provisions of the Bill. tunate enough to join the "200 Club" is However, I think it was reasonable to expect not entitled to become a J.P. I thought that honourable members to discuss the duties of it was purely a traffic offence, but it pre­ justices of the peace generally, because certain cludes a person from being a first-class parts of the Act deal with them. citizen entitled to appointment as a J.P. I have been a J.P. since I entered parliament, Perhaps I should comment on some of the yet I have been given speeding and parking points made by honourable members. It is tickets. I did not know that parliamentarians true that there is a tremendous number of could tell the law that we were on urgent justices of the peace in Queensland, but, of Government business or that we were on our course, they were all appointed for good way to Parliament House. Apparently we reason. It is surprising how difficult it is to are above the Jaw in this regard. When find a J.P. when one is wanted. Every police station has a list of names of justices of the I received my speeding ticket, I was 'tran~­ porting a cadet bugler on Anzac Day from peace, because the police make constant use a parade to the cathedral. I was trying to of them. A person can rely on obtaining the get him there in time for the next service. I name of a justice of the peace from a police do not know that that was urgent Govern­ station. The police require J.P.'s to sign their ment business, but my detection by the own documents, and usually a J.P. will be radar trap certainly resulted in a few points found somewhere handy, perhaps in a neigh­ being put against my name. However, it does bouring house or shop. not disentitle me from being a J.P. Had The names of people who are appointed I been unlucky enough or foolish enough to as justices of the peace are published in the get into my car after drinking five or six Government Gazette every week, and a con­ beers, I would have disentitled myself and solidated list is gazetted from time to time. my name would have been expunged from It is a thick document, but it is available the register of justices of the peace. and is regularly brought up to date. The Reverting to the duties of justices of the names are published in a public document peace, I was a scrutineer last Sunday and I which is available at the usual places of &aw a J.P. sign an envelope on which there sighting such documents. The trouble is that was no signature. This is ridiculous. It was the average citizen does not know that. All not a Labor voter, by the way. I imagine that I can advise is that persons requiring the that the J.P. did this unwittingly. As the services of a J .P. seek advice from their local honourable member for Bundaberg said, a police station, as police officers frequently use J.P., in witnessing a signature, merely attests the services of justices of the peace. to the fact that the person has signed it. Mr. Sherrington: I find that many people Mr. Knox: That is right. inquire at post offices. Mr. R. JONES: It is important that people know this. Many documents do not have to Mr. KNOX: That could be because very be read by a J .P., who merely attests to the often they have to go there to collect things fact that the person concerned signed it. A such as mail and Social Service benefits. 1 J .P. must ask the signatory certain things, am quite sure that most postmasters would which are set out in the screed. know the names and addresses of some justices of the peace. In fact, it would not Mr. Bromley: Do you know that it is not surprise me if most postmasters themselves competent for a policeman above a certain are justices of the peace. rank to be a J.P.? Mr. R. Jones: Couldn't we have them Mr. R. JONES: I did not know that. recorded in a restricted manner in regional I now want to comment on something business directories or something like that? else that was said in the Chamber. I am diametrically opposed to justices of the peace Mr. KNOX: That raises the problem of being asked to report on other citizens. I advertising. The names appear in the Gov­ am a "dinki-die" Australian and I am against ernment Gazette, which is a public document. "dabbers". I do not believe that any citizen Each week the Government Gazette contains should be asked to report another citizen. the names of new justices of the peace. I That is the job of the law-enforcement do not think it would take long to find a authorities. When he first took office, the justice of the peace by consulting the Govern­ Minister for Transport said that he intended ment Gazette. It has a wide circulation in to amend the Traffic Act to encourage this the community. Justices Act Amendment Bill (3 APRIL 1973] Consumer Affairs, &c., Bill 3549

On the matter of training for justices of The honourable member for Stafford the peace, [ recommend to people who have pointed out the advantages in speeding up nominated for appointment as justices of the the procedures and also in getting rid of peace that they join the Justices Association. some of the redundancies and technicalities. I should hope that, as a result of the review Mr. Wright: Out of the 40,000-odd J.P.'s being carried out by the Law Reform in Queensland, the Justices Association has Commission, together with that of the com­ only 600 members. mittee that has been considering this matter and from which these recommendations have Mr. KNOX: For those who wish to know come, there will be a major overhaul of this their duties, the Justices Association does a Act and several other Acts relating to the very fine job. It arranges for lectures and supervision of the Magistrates Courts and other means of conveying relevant informa­ their procedures. tion. and I cannot recommend a better way for a J.P. to become acquainted with his Similarly, the Law Reform Commission duties. has been specially commissioned this year to examine the procedures of the Supreme Mr. Sherrington: And it saves you the Court. I assure honourable members that trouble of having to do it. when its report on the five or six Acts that govern these procedures comes to hand, it Mr. KNOX: The instruction is carried out will be a very progressive step in the super­ under conditions that are conducive to vision of justice in this State. encouraging enthusiasm in justices of the Motion (Mr. Knox) agreed to. peace. I do not know if any honourable members have attended lectures arranged by Resolution reported. the Justices Association. They are well pre­ sented, and the association does a fine job FIRST READING for its members. Quite a number of J.P.'s are Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. very keen on this work, and they work hard Knox, read a first time. to further the interests of the association. I have been a member of it for many years, and I am sure there are other honourable CONSUMER AFFAIRS ACT members who also belong to it. I think it AMENDMENT BILL is the best place to learn for those who may INITIATION IN CoMMITTEE from time to time have the responsibility (Mr. W. D. Hewitt, Chatsworth, in the of sitting on the bench. chair) Only rarely do justices of the peace in the metropolitan area and provincial cities find Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister themselves sitting on the bench, but in some for Justice) (2.59 p.m.): I move- country areas this is relatively frequent. "That a Bill be introduced to amend the Justices of the peace who find themselves in Consumer Affairs Act 1970 in certain this position have the assistance and advice particulars." of court officials, and other officials who are The Consumer Affairs Act 1970, which pro­ there to help them, and they usually carry vided for the constitution of a Consumer out their duties very satisfactorily indeed. Affairs Council and for its functions and I assure honourable members that, by powers and the conduct of its affairs, the using justices of the peace, neither the establishment of a Consumer Affairs Bureau present Government nor any former and the appointment of a Commissioner for Government has attempted to cheapen the Consumer Affairs, was assented to on 14 administration of justice. The services of December 1970 and commenced on 1 justices of the peace on the bench are January 1971. usually required in matters arising suddenly Having regard to matters which have or in cases of special emergency, and I come to the notice of the Council and in think it is in the interests of justice that the light of the experience of the Consumer justices of the peace are available and are Affairs Bureau since that date, it is clear used at short notice. This enables matters that certain amendments are desirable. to be dealt with that would otherwise lead Provision is made in the Bill for the to the accused person being inconvenienced definition of "consumer" to be reworded in for a much longer period. order to make it clear that it is not intended that incorporated persons and members of Mr. Jensen: Usually they only witness business partnerships are consumers as signatures. As I said, an elector could do defined. "Services" is defined, and a small that. claims tribunal is identified as the agency Mr. KNOX: The other duties of justices established by the Small Claims Tribunals of the peace are clearly stated. When they Act. The definition of "trade description" are appointed, they receive forms. If they is widened to include the mileage shown on want more information, a comprehensive the odometer fitted in a motor vehicle. booklet is produced by the Justices Associa­ The Bill makes provision for the Com­ tion that I recommend all justices of the missioner for Consumer Affairs to be peace to read. appointed as a member of the Consumer 3550 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

Affairs Council, and also provides that The existing provisions relating to the pro­ following the expiration of the term of tection of officers in administering the Act appointment of the present 12 members the are to be widened to ensure that the Com­ council shall be composed of such number missioner is protected in respect of any of members as the Minister specifies, and disclosure or publication made by him con­ shall have such qualifications for member­ cerning the supply of goods or the provision ship as the Minister specifies. In making of services, or concerning any person associ­ such specifications, the Minister shall have ated therewith. regard to the interest in consumer affairs The existing provisions require that the of all sections of the community. Minister's consent be obtained before a pro­ The affiliation of the Council with any ceeding may be taken by an inspector against other organisation shall be subject to the a person who contravenes or fails to comply approval of the Minister, and six members with a provision of the Act. A person who of the Council shall be a quorum for the claims to be aggrieved by the contravention purposes of a meeting rather than eight or non-compliance may take a proceeding members as at present. with the Commissioner's consent. The rele­ With a view to ensuring that the functions vant section is amended by the Bill to of the Consumer Affairs Bureau are at all provide that in either case a proceeding times the direct responsibility of the Com­ may be taken with the Commissioner's con­ missioner, the Bill provides that the perform­ sent. ance of such functions shall be subject to Where it appears that a ~tatement that the approval of the Commissioner. contravenes the Act was made or published Provision is made in the Bill authorising by a person who is employed by another, inspectors to require the furnishing of inform­ and was made or published in or for the ation and answers to questions which may purpose of the employer's trade or business, be put to a trader, and the information so the Bill provides that the employer shall obtained may be admissible in evidence in be deemed to have made the statement and a proceeding before a small claims tribunal. to have committed the offence unless he proves that the statement was made by the The existing Act has separate sections employee contrary to his instructions. Pro­ dealing with false or misleading statements as to services, false representations as to tection is provided for an employee who has acted bona fide upon the instructions of royal warrant relating to goods, and false his employer and, on demand, has identified statements concerning goods. It is proposed his employer and his whereabouts fully and that, where appropriate, similar provisions relating to goods and services be embraced accurately. in the one section of the Act. A new pro­ In relation to defences to charges under vision is being made prohibiting reference to the Act, the Bill provides that it is a the Consumer Affairs Bureau or the Consumer defence to prove that the contravention was Affairs Council in any advertisement in order due to a cause beyond the defendant's con­ to prevent the advertising of goods or ser­ trol and that the defendant took all reason­ vices with the inference that they have been able precautions to avoid the contravention. endorsed by the Bureau or the Council. However, a cause shall not be taken to be beyond the defendant's control unless the The Bill provides that a person offering court is satisfied that it is one that the to supply goods or provide services shall not defendant could not reasonably have fore­ make or publish a statement or advertise­ seen or was one for which he could not ment which indicates the deposit required or reasonably have made allowances. any periodic rates of payment unless the cash price for the goods or services is also The existing provisions under which an indicated. inspector is authorised to enter premises in The Bill also provides that a person offer­ the course of his investigations in relation to ing to supply prescribed goods or to provide the production, manufacturing, storing, etc. prescribed services shall not make a state­ of goods are to be widened to include places ment which indicates that they are being where services may be provided. However, offered at a price less than the price at which before an inspector enters any part of they have previously been offered unless he premises, which part is used as a dwelling, also in~icates the present price of the goods he will be required, unless he has the per­ or serv1ces. mission of the occupier of that part to his Certain provisions of the existing legisla­ entry, to obtain a warrant from a justice. tion prohibit the publishing of misleading Similarly, an inspector will not be authorised statements. These sections are to be widened to forcibly enter any premises other than to prohibit also the making of such state­ under the authority of a warrant. ments. An exi:,ting provision of the Consumer The power of the Governor in Council to Affairs Act provides that members of the make regulations dealing with the composi­ Council and officers of the Bureau shall not, tion of contents, design, construction, etc. other than in the course of their duty under of goods is to be extended to enable regula­ the Act, directly or indirectly communicate tions to be made, if considered necessary, any information that comes to their know­ requiring that food containers be marked to ledge in consequence of their holding their show the component parts of their contents. particular appointments. To clarify the Consumer Affairs Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3551 matter, the relevant section is to be amended The Bureau and the Council function to provide that it is competent for the under the disadvantage of having no legal­ Commissioner and his staff to communicate advisory section. A number of complaints to a consumer whose complaint has been that have been made to those bodies have investigated by the Bureau, or to a small been returned to the persons who have claims tribunal, information concerning the complained with the comment that they do matter which has come to the knowledge of not come under the jurisdiction of the two the Bureau as a result of the investigations, bodies or under the Act, and I accept the and which is of a class of information that statements by the Bureau and the Council. the Commissioner has authorised to be so The anomalies will not be overcome by a communicated. small claims tribunal, because the people A new section will facilitate the service themselves will have to process their com­ of notices, requisitions or other documents plaints before they take them to a referee. upon persons or bodies corporate. I wonder who will do that, but will defer comment on this matter until a later date. I commend the motion to the Committee. The lack of power of the Council is a Mr. WRIGHT (Rockhampton) (3.7 p.m.): disadvantage. It has power to make recom­ It is obvious that these amendments, which mendations to the Minister, but I believe are called for, will be far-reaching ones. I they should be made to Parliament, which is am sure that anyone who looks back over surely 'the greatest power in the State, and the operations of the Consumer Affairs they should be made direct to Parliament. Bureau and Consumer Affairs Council would While the right to advise the Minister for agree that those bodies have been effective. Justice is fair enough, it is obvious that he However, the degree of effectiveness is open does not take much notice of the to dispute. It may be claimed that because recommendations. they have handled approximately 8,000 complaints, they have been effective. How­ Insufficient control is exercised by the ever, whether or not all of those complaints Minister or Parliament over members of the have been resolved satisfactorily is arguable. Council. I raised this matter last November when talking about a member of the Council, Mr. Miller: The small claims tribunals l'v!rs. Gabby Horan. Another Opposition will be effective. speaker will give more details of this matter, because it is very relevant to what we are Mr. WRIGHT: That matter can be dis­ discussing today, that is, the effectiveness of cussed at the second reading stage of the the Consumer Affairs Bureau and Council. Small Claims Tribunals Bill. I am referring to an infamous instance in It might also be claimed that the way in which a member of the Council endorsed a which the Council and Bureau have bluffed certain product. The Minister told us that firms that have participated in false advertis­ a new provision prohibits reference to the ing or engaged in malpractices has been Council in an advertisement, so that no-one effective. The reports of both the Council will be able to infer in any way from adver­ and the Bureau as well as the comments of tisements that the Council endorses a pro­ Professor Gates have had a positive effect, duct. I hope he also meant that it will not but, in the light of the fact that these mal­ be possible to infer that a member of the practices have been allowed to continue, we Council endorses what is being sold. The must ask ourselves whether or not the warn­ real point is not so much whether the ings that have been issued have been totally Council, en masse, has endorsed a product effective. or dissociated itself from it, but whether members of the council have said, "We like The number of investigations that have this product or we buy or recommend this been carried out is also a mark that can be added to the score of the Council and the product." Bureau. However, the two bodies have been In November last year, Gabby Horan, a unable to convince the Minister of the need member of the Council, denied publicly to implement many of their recommendations. that she had any pecuniary interest in Farmer In a number of complaints I have learned Greenfield's. I believe that it will be well that investigations were carried out in 1971 proved later that she has a pecuniary interest and 1972 but action was not taken until a in that firm, and has been well paid by it year later. In spite of the fact that the for a long time. Her statement in "The Consumer Affairs Council's report on the Courier-Mail" the other day thrut she had bread industry contained very positive received two cheques by mistake was a recommendations, the Minister has not yet deliberate fabrication, as will be proved by taken any action upon them. other members of the Committee. The Minister is endeavouring to remove The Council has been disadvantaged some of the anomalies that exist in the Act, because it cannot take legal action. Many so it is possible that in future no-one will of the amendments could be described as be able to claim that the legislation does not commandments because they state that people have any teeth. I think everybody will agree shall do this or shall not do that. Par't IJI that up to this stage it has had only false of the Act, which relates to trade practices, teeth, which are not as good as natural is very important. Another section refers to teeth. false adve11tising. As members of Parliament 3552 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

interested in what goes on in our electorates, Another pamphlet is headed, "How to Spot we know that false advertising is still com­ Shady Deals." The main point is that these monplace. The report of the Commissioner are warnings, and while they help people to for Consumer Affairs cites numerous organ­ beware of what can happen, they do not isations that have engaged in false advertising really educate the people. No. 14 in this and in using wrong descriptions to involve booklet reads- people in sales, but nothing has been done. ''Vanity can cost you money or health." The Act contains a penalty of up to $200 "No product or service '"e know can­ or six months' imprisonment for the first offence, and a fine of $500 or 12 months' Grow your hair imprisonment for a second offence, but in the Make you taller two years since the passing of the Act I Remove or prevent wrinkles have not heard of anyone going to gaol or Develop your bust being fined $500, or of anyone being fined Reduce your weight by- even $200. Massages Are we to infer that no-one has contra­ Creams vened the Act? I believe that it has been Belts contravened by mock auctions, pseudo auctions, unsolicited mail and many other Girdles practices. It has been contravened by a Sweat baths." dozen firms that have advertised articles for That is pretty good. It is great to have sale at $15, with a saving of $10, when the that type of material, but it does not educate original price was only $20. That is a well­ people in the law. This is where it falls known tactic used by Waltons. I could go on down. We can go from one extreme to the and on and on, but there have been no prosectt­ other. 'This is one extreme. tions. We have read some very good reports The other extreme is a book entitled "You prepared by the Consumer Affairs Bureau, and the Law in Australia", which was com­ and the Minister has made quite a number of public statements, but no-one has been piled by 0. R. Scott. It is an excellent fined or gaoled. Is it any wonder that book dealing with many of the problems that commercial firms in Queensland engaging in confront ordinary people. Among other malpractices simply laugh at our legislation? things it outlines the law relating to "Your Is it any wonder that people say, "We do Neighbour"; "You and the Landlord" and not have any protection from malpractices."? "Do You Buy on Terms?-including leasing, credit sales, lay-bys, loans, cash orders, advice I emphasise that the Bill actually uses the for H.P. customers." Other sections are word "profiteering". When I asked the headed, "How to Recover Debts"; "When Minister the other day to give the definition Buying or Selling a Motor Car"; "Making a of the word "profiteering" under the Act, Bill of Sale"; "If You are an Inventor, he said that there was no definition. How includes patents, trade marks, designs and on earth can we prosecute anyone or convict copyrights" and "Front Door Salesmen". It anyone for profiteering if nobody knows what is a very good book. But I could not expect it is? That is another ridiculous aspect of anybody to sit down and read it; there must the Act. be a compromise. There is a balance between I should like to see more far-reaching this extreme and the issuing of a few amendments than we are considering. The warnings. Act is found wanting in the matter of con­ 'The South Australian Government has sumer education. I pay full credit to the come up with this compromise. It has pro­ Minis~er on the part he has played, with duced a booklet which has several "Do's" members of the Consumer Affairs Bureau and "Don'ts". Briefly, they tell a consumer and Council, in publication of the worth­ to make sure that the price is competitive, while "Abel Spender" pamphlets. They are to make sure that he gets a written quotation, marvellous because they warn people of to make sure that any guarantee and warranty the various problems that may confront them. he is given is in writing and so on. It also A pamphlet I have here refers to the things covers the law protecting people in that that should be realised by people who are State. It briefly outlines the Prices Act, the signing a contract. It states- Door to Door Sales Act, 1971, the Unfair "Never sign a contract with blank spaces. Advertising Act, 1971, the Book Purchasers Protection Act, the Second-hand Motor "Never sign a paper to get rid of a Vehicles Act, and the Unordered Goods and salesman. Services Act, which is on the lines of legisla­ "If he refuses to leave after you have tion introduced in this Chamber only a few asked him to go, contact the Police. days ago. "Never sign a contract without getting It goes on to explain to the public the role a copy. of the Prices and Consumer Affairs Branch in that State. This is the type of education "Never sign a contract unless you know that is needed. This is one extreme and the the total cost." book is the other. We want something that 'Tbese are valid recommendations and the people will sit down and read. The warnings. South Australian booklet contains 24 small Consumer Affairs Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3553 pages. People would be prepared to look at Unfortunately, we have for a long time it and to carry it. We must come down to assumed that people should stand by their this aspect of education if we are to improve bargains. Always it has been a case of consumer protection. caveat emptor-let the buyer beware. Always the assumption is made that agree­ Mr. Ahem: Did you see the advertisement ments are reached between equals, and, in the paper at the week-end about dividing for that reason, they should be binding. I fences? It was very good. say that this is no longer the position. The Mr. WRIGHT: I did not see that. climate has changed. The pressures placed on purchasers today are far different from Mr. Ahern: The Minister inserted it. those placed on purchasers 25 years ago. People are conditioned today to believe that Mr. WRIGHT: I commend the Minister. they should buy this and that. They are What we have today is a far cry from what conditioned to believe that they should buy we had a year ago. I do not mind giving encyclopaedias that they cannot afford to give the Minister credit because he is trying to their children a better educational chance. improve consumer protection. But I also They are conditioned to believe that they say that he would not have done anything should buy bigger and better refrigerators, about it had it not been for the pressure and so on. They are conditioned by high­ placed on him and the Government by pressure salesmen. members of the Opposition. It is time that If any member wants to discuss such he accepted that point. conditioning, I suggest that he have a talk Mr. Porter: What rot! with the honourable member for Rock­ hampton North who attended one of the Mr. WRIGHT: We all know the views of "Dare to be Great" meetings. He will learn the honourable member for Toowong. what it means to be conditioned. As a matter of fact, the honourable member came Let us get down to some of the basics. to me later and said, "I might even join Last Wednesday night I went to the university the scheme myself." Of course, I knew he and listened to an excellent address delivered was only joking, because he firmly advocated by Professor Cowen, entitled "The Law and the annihilation of this firm. I commend the Individual". It lasted an hour and 10 him for his advocacy, and the results that minutes. Professor Cowen covered many he obtained. aspects of the consumer in society today. The The point is that conditioning does take most important pertained to consumer credit place, and today people cannot overcome it. law. This is a subject we should look at They are gullible and avaricious, and they because hire-purchase is a very important want the cheap purchase and the easy operation in society today. Many people "quid." Surely this becomes a responsibility would not enjoy the standard of living they of consumer protection. I believe that we have if it were not for credit sales. So we need to look at this whole concept. It is accept them; we condone them; we need not good enough to have some laws that them. But people do not know enough about give some protection. What is needed is a the existing protections. They do not know master plan of consumer protection that out­ and understand their rights and responsibili­ lines every protection provided for the ties in this field. When they have been people, and includes an education programme caught by signing a hire-purchase agreement, in the schools and for adults. Until this is the Consumer Affairs Bureau can do little done, I do not think that there can be about the matter. effective consumer protection, and I do not I am handling a case at the moment con­ believe that the Consumer Affairs Bureau or cerning Farmer Greenfield's Family Foods the Consumer Affairs Council will be as Pty. Ltd. We are trying to get the woman effective as it could be. out of a contract, but a hire-purchase agree­ Mr. PORTER (Toowong) (3.23 p.m.): ment has been signed involving $450 at some Whenever the honourable member for Rock­ 17 per cent interest. I do not think we will hampton speaks on this subject, he seems to succeed. I think that we should in some way be obsessed with Mrs. Horan and Farmer tie in the protections that we have here, and Greenfield. He is unable to say anything consumer credit law is something that we along these lines without bringing this should explain to the people. If we are going matter up and reiterating some fancy to give people true protection, let us get grievance that he has or that he believes down to the real problem, and surely that somebody has. It is a shame that he should is price. This was emphasised in the recent see things in so narrow a spectrum at all report presented in this Chamber on the times. As shadow Minister for Justice, as bread industry. Surely there is need for I think he is referred to, he engages in quite justification of price increases. But this is fancy displays of energetic but useless not done. There is a Prices Commissioner shadow sparring. in this State. I believe that he has a staff of one, and he is supposed to control prices The honourable member is a very venge­ of a number of articles that are not named. ful person, too. He does not seem to be We have the instrument, but we are not satisfied unless he has some piece of legis­ making use of it. lation that will yield for him some good, red 3554 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

commercial blood. He wants to see some­ course, the unfortunate paJCt is that honour­ body bleed all the time. He is a remarkably able members opposite, whenever they come vengeful person. I wonder if he suggests­ to matters concerning commerce, tmde or he did not, so far as I was able to follow bminess in general, always want to resort to him-that the present machinery has extremely violent and very extreme sort of achieved nothing? If he knows of com­ remedies-the techniques of Senator Murphy plaints by people who find that the present which, of course, are nearly always much machinery of the Consumer Affairs Bureau more lethal than the ill they purport to is not operating, it would be interesting for cure. him to bring such cases to this Chamber. But he does not do so. The honourable This machinery for protecting the con­ member has had the opportunity to produce sumer-to ensure that, by and large, the facts. Instead, he loves to involve himself consumer can get value, for money spent­ in exaggeration and hyperbole rather than will help to reduce the small deceits, the facts. Surely he is not suggesting that the trickeries and the exaggerations which have amendments do not strengthen the current existed from time immemorial, which will machinery, which has worked well. I think exist as long as man is man, and which he would have to concede that. have always prompted some sellers to try to mislead some unwary buyers as to the Mr. Wright: You weren't listening. goods or the services they are offered. Surely Mr. PORTER: The honourable member these are very useful things. As far a:s says I was not listening. I thought I listened I am concerned, it is infinitely better to try to him with marked attention. However, to protect the consumer .in this way and when one takes away the patches of purple ensure that he gets value for money-in prose, there is very little left to deal with. other words, to contain the urges towards inflation in this way-than to have artificial The honourable member should recognise blocks and props like price control and the that the Biil does quite marked things in other Left-wing, ritualistic procedures that strengthening the present machinery. There honourable mernbers opposite are always pro­ are a number of changes that will strengthen claiming. Oddly enough, they proclaim them the position of the Council. We redefine the irrespective of their utter and absolute failure definition of "consumer" to exclude corpora­ in every country, in every era and in every tions, and surely that is a great virtue. Then form of society in which they have ever there is the machinery of the Council itself: been tried, including Communist RuS>Sia and the number required for a quorum is reduced Capitalist America. from eight to six; the number of members of the Council is to be as the Minister specifies I believe that the Bill adds more value and the members are to have the qualifica­ to a very valuable piece of machinery tions that the Minister specifies; the appoint­ already existing, and I am surprised indeed ment of the Commissioner as a member of to find honourable members oppo-site so the Council; and the powers of the Com­ vociferous in voidng objections or some sort missioner are to be strengthened so that he of protests to the legislation now before the can obtain information and, when he is Committee. authorised to so obtain it, to use it for particular purposes. Surely this will do a Mr. BOUSEN (Toowoomba North) (3.29 great deal to strengthen the way the Council p.m.): I often wonder why, whenever the operates. matter of Mrs. Horan and Farmer Green­ Then there are a number of provisions field's products are mentioned in this that affect the way in which goods may be Chamber, honourable members opposite merchandised and which, if I may put it defend Mrs. Horan, as the honourable mem­ this way, will go a long way towards ber for Toowong has just done. Obviously ensuring the genuineness, the authenticity, of there must be some sense of guilt in proper mechandising. The Bill proposes that honourable members opposite, as Mrs. Horan we prohibit the making of false or misleading is a member of the Consumer Affairs Coun­ statements relative to goods or services; pro­ cil and at the same time is very deeply hibit the publication of fabe statements con­ involved with Farmer Greenfield's products cerning goods or services; prohibit the mak­ because of the remuneration she receives in ing of misle:xding verbal statements as to connection with them. the suitability of goods; and it requires, of I welcome the Bill as outlined by the course, that goods and services be fairly Minister and I support everything that the advertised and that they must not be falsely shadow Minister for Justice (Mr. Wright) advertised as having been inspected, tested has said in relation to it. I also believe that or approved by the Consumer Affairs Coun­ there are insufficient teeth in the Bill to cil, the Consumer Affairs Bureau or the protect the consumers in the way the Opposi­ Australian Standards Association. ' tion thinks they ought to be protected. I All of these things, I suggest, are very can recall that when the legislation was useful. They assist what has obviously worked first introduced I said that it had insufficient well to date, and it surprised me to find teeth to protect the consumer against the the honourable member for Rockhampton rorts that have been worked by door-to­ so vindictive in his attitude towards the door selling and pyramid selling. The Bill measure now before the Committee. Of before us today is not greatly different. I Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3555 know tha;t in many of the cases I have sub­ has pecuniary interests in a firm which mitted to the Minister it has been impo,ssible has been the subject of an adverse report to provide any satisfaction to the people by the Council?" who were robbed by glib salesmen. Again the Minister skidded around the ques­ One point that worries me is the lack ti~n and said that the Consumer Affairs of control over members of the Council. Act did not preclude from membership of Provision should be made so that members the Council a person who has or may have of the Council could be dismissed if they had a pecuniary interest in any firm or sales had a pecuniary interest in, or business practice which had been the subject of com­ transactions with, firms that are so much plaint to the Consumer Affairs Bureau. How in the public eye because of fraudulent can such persons do justice for people who sales. The activities of one member are are being robbed? destroying the image of the Council. That On 20 March I asked the Minister the person advertises certain products that are further question- continually the subject of criticism and alleg­ "(1) Further to my Question of ations of fraud. That in itself must destroy March 7 regarding the eligibility of the Council's good image. persons serving on the Consumer Affairs Part II of the Act deals with appoint­ Council and Bureau, under what circum­ ments to the Council. lt also provides that stances would the Governor in Council the Governor in Council has power to dis­ remove a member from the Council or miss any member of the Council. But here Bureau? again the legislation is found wanting because "(2) What Ministerial discretion is it does not say under what circumstances involved in (a) the appointment and (b) a member of the Council can be dismissed. the dismissal of members of the Consumer As our shadow Minister (Mr. Wright) said, Affairs Council?" a member of the Council with a pecuniary In his usual snide way, the Minister replied- interest in a certain firm cannot do justice for people whom that firm has robbed. "This is a hypothetical question, and it is not my intention to anticipate cir­ On 7 March I asked the Minister for cumstances under which the Governor in Justice- Council might remove a member from the "( I) Are there any requirements for Consumer Affairs Council. As previously members of the Consumer Affairs Council explained to the honourable member, to declare pecuniary interests in any busi­ officers of the Consumer Affairs Bureau ness enterprise which is, or could be, the are subject to the provisions of the Public subject of investigation by the Consumer Service Acts and Regulations." Affairs Council or the Consumer Affairs That does not mean a thing. Bureau? In his introductory speech the Minister "(2) What restrictions are placed on said that the Bill will prevent members members of the Consumer Affairs Council of the Consumer Affairs Council from mak­ or the Consumer Affairs Bureau to par· ing any statements that will either advertise ticipate in discussions or investigations into or a'ssist in the sale of products. But unless complaints on the business practice of the Bill provides that the members will be firms if they have a pecuniary interest in prevented from holding a pecuniary interest the firms concerned?" in business, it will not go far enough. In his usual naive manner, the Minister I wish to rea:d now from an agreement skidded around the question and said there that was drawn up between Frank Adler, were no restrictions. It is wrong that this who was the major shareholder in Farmer should be so. If the Council is to operate Greenfield's Family Foods, and Mrs. Gabrielle for the purpose for which it was created, Horan. The agreement is dated 4 June 1970, there must be some provision for taking and reads- action against members of the Council if "It is agreed that Mrs. Gabrielle Horan required. shall recommend, through media such as On the same day I asked the Minister- preos, radio and television, etc., the freezer "(1) Has he, the Consumer Affairs Coun­ food selling plan known as Farmer Green­ cil, or the Consumer Affairs Bureau ever field's Family Foods (a division of Adler received a complaint or been informed Sales Pty. Limited) and in return for such that a member or members of the Con­ recommendation, shall receive a commis­ sumer Affairs Council or the Bureau sion of ten dollars for every freezer sold, allegedly had a pecuniary interest in any less ten dollars for any freezer that has firm or sales practice which has been the been cancelled or repossessed. Payments subject of complaint to the Consumer will be made to Mrs. Gabrielle Horan on Affairs Bureau? If so, what investigations a monthly basis." have been made into such allegations and On 5 June 1970, Frank Adler wrote to what were the results? Mrs. Bell as follows:- "(2) Is there any provision which calls "Attached is Gabby Horan's copy of upon a member of the Consumer Affairs our agreement for the Farmer Greenfield's Council or the Bureau to resign if he Family Food plan. 3556 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

"It has been most pleasant doing business 15 c.f. Metters freezers and although these with you and I look forward to a mutually are eighty dollars extra in price, I am friendly and profitable association in the sure the bigger size will help clocSe more future." sales. On 3 July 1970, Frank Adler wrote to Mrs. "We had a couple of prospective cus­ Bell in these terms- tomers ring to say they had heard you "I have pleasure in fmwarding Mrs. mention Farmer Greenfield's on air the Horan's commi·ssion cheque for the month other morning. Thank you very much of June. During this period twenty freezers for this assistance and I look forward to were delivered for Farmer Greenfield's bigger and better things ahead with summer Family Foods and there are a number just around the corner." (approximately three) awaiting delivery in July. In another letter to Mrs. Horan, dated 2 "I hope this month that we may step September 1970, Frank Adler said- up our sales considerably so thart: benefits "As you can see, we had a better month will be greater for all concerned. I am during August and I am looking forward very pleased with the cooperation I have to better months again during the summer had from you and Mrs. Horan and look period. Thank you for your assistance forward to a continued association." and care. Mr. Wright: In November last year Gabby "I would like to take you and Mrs. Bell Horan said she had never received any to lunch next Thursday" lOth September, financial benefit. and if you would supply me with an address to pick up both of you, I w,j]] Mr. ROUSEN: Here is documentary evid­ be pleased to do so at 12.30 p.m." ence to the contrary. In a letter to Mrs. Horan dated 28 July On 5 October 1970 he wrote again to Mrs. 1970, Frank Adler said- Horan, as follows:- "Dear Gabby, "! am pleased to say that we had a "Just a note to keep you up-to-date better month during September which with what is happening at Farmer Green­ results in my being able to present you field's, and to thank you for the excellent with a larger amount than on previous job you did on our television commercia:! occasions. last week. I am very pleased with the "We are spending more time at present results we have had so far. planning for a bigger and better organisa­ "You will recall our discussion last week tion for Farmer Greenfield's and should when we were t·alking about a new manu­ you hear any comments regarding our facturer of freezers being more suitable service, good or bad, I would be pleased than Simpson-Pope because of the problems if you telephone me wit·h the information." that they gave us. I am sure you will be happy to know tha:t we have made Then, on 28 October 1970, Mrs. June Bell, a decision with a new manufacturer, who is Mrs. Horan's counterpart, wrote to Metters, who have agreed to supply us Frank Adler as follows:- exclusively with their 15 c.f. freezeT "Commencing from the remittance due (brochure attached) which has added benefits over our other model. to Gabrielle at the end of this month, "Attached also is a copy of the points would you kindly deduct half the amount on the freezer that our sales staff use due each month until the end of December, in the homes. You can see for yourself and one third of the amount due each why we are very excited about this new month after that date, for tax instalments, model. and include same in your Group Remit­ "Thank you once again for giving me tances of each appropriate month? every assistance in providing a worthwhile commodity to the Brisbane people that "Hope business is booming. I know you means good business for us and certainlv will be, on that health diet of yours." good savings for them." · A further letter, dated 13 November 1970, Mr. Miller: Who is that addressed to? from Frank Adler to Mrs. G. Horan, care of Mrs. J. Bell, was in these terms- Mr. BOUSEN: Gabby Horan. "Dear Gabby, Mr. Porter: Who gave it to you? "As you will see, we had an excellent Mr. BOUSEN: That's my business. month during October and I am pleased On 5 August 1970 Frank Adler wrote to to forward this cheque. Mrs. Horan as follows:- "When you get the chance, call in at "! did not get quite the result I hoped Woolloongabba for a glass of milk and for during July, but the result was quite some soya beans." satisfying. As you know by my la:st note to you, we are now moving into the And there was a cheque for $330. Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3557

Another letter from Frank Adler to Mrs. I also have here a photostat copy of a Horan, dated 14 December 1970, reads- cheque for $200 payable to G. Horan. The "Dear Gabby and June, next document I have is marked "Con­ fidential". It is dated 16 October 1972, and "I am having a few friends over for reads- drinks on Christmas morning at my new home at 245 Wellington Road, East Bris­ " Reference Mrs. Horan's Remuneration" bane, between nine and eleven. I would "Beginning from 1st October, 1972, be most happy if both or either of you Mrs. Horan's rate of remuneration will be could attend. upgraded to $300 per month. "Farmer Greenfield's is progressing very Frank Adler." well, as you will notice from this month's The next letter is a confidential one from cheque. At present we are contemplating Frank Adler headed, "Mrs G. Horan's a larger investment in our own food pro­ Expenses dated 3 January 1973" and is in ducing plant to improve the quality of these terms- the food and the service to our customers. "Due to an error on my part, recently When you are in the vicinity of Woolloon­ gabba some day in the near future, please cheques have been sent to Mrs. Horan at call in." the Queensland Housewives' Association office. In future all cheques for Mrs. The next letter to M1~s. Horan from Frank Ho ran must be sent C/- Mrs. June Bell, Adler is dated 15 January 1971, and reads- Public Accountant, Bracken Street, Moor­ "Dear Gabby, ooka. The attached cheques have been returned from the Queensland Housewives' "Hope you W.d a great Christmas and Association. These cheques are to be New Year and I look forward to seeing cancelled and a new cheque made out for you one day soon. Farmer Greenfield's $1,100 to Mrs. June Bell stipulating pay­ is going quite weH and we have lots of ment for services for Mrs. Horan to new plans for the future. Apart from one December 31, 1972. As there is no firm or two minor complaints from those types agreement or contract with Mrs. Horan who 'always complain about anything' all at present I am not concerned over any customers are very satisfied with the future legal issues. However, the agree­ savings and service they receive. ment has been made verbal between Mrs. "I am positive that we are going to Bell, Mrs. Horan and myself all in one have a very successful 1971 with Farmer meeting that the procedure of payment in Greenfield's. Give my best wishes to future would be as outlined in the previous June." paragraphs. The next letter to Mrs. Horan is dated Frank Adler." August 1971, and reads- It is quite obvious, of course, that the "Dear Gabby, Consumer Affairs Council, with such a "I hope you and June are well. Attached person being a member of it, cannot do is our commission cheque for July." justice to the people whom it is supposed to represent when cases of fraud are sub­ A cheque was enclosed for $200. mitted to it for consideration. The next letter was on 30 September 1971, in these terms- Mr. R. E. MOORE (Windsor) (3.44 p.m.): "Dear Gabby, In all my time in Parliament I have not heard such nonsense as that put before us "I hope you are feeling much better at today by the honourable member for the present time after your sojourn in Toowoomba North. He rea:lly had nothing hospital. to say. He could only attempt to malign "Attached is our payment for the month Mrs. Horan claiming that he received letters of August. from a certain source. It would not surprise "Should you require brightening up in me if he wrote them himself. the near future, call around to Woolloon­ The proposed amendments are . necessary gabba where we have a stockpile of the because the initial legislation was mtroduced latest off-colour jokes." on the basis that we did not want a sledge­ The following is a list of the cheques sent hammer to crack a nut. We devised legisla­ to Gabby Horan and the dates on which tion that would not go too far, with a they were paid:- proviso that it would be amended when and if it was decided that it was necessary, and No. Date that is why the present measure is before 342531 3-11-71 the Committee. Consumer affairs, environ­ 342577 30-11-71 mental control and pollution are orders of 335713 31-12-71 the day throughout the world, and people 444 28-1-72 expect to be given protection in these fields. 368566 29-2-72 The consumer must be protected against the 127707 30-3-72 con-man or the "shark", but there are always 787416 28-4-72 two sides to a story and the purchaser's is 312122 31-5-72 not always the correct one. There are many 787807 30-6-72 instances of a consumer purchasing an article 3558 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill against the advice of the vendor and, finding The Bill covers false and misleading state­ that he has made a mistake, wanting some ments about services. All members know form of redress. No record of the original how entrepreneurs by sharp practices put over conversation is kept. convincing stories about the quality of Many Brisbane firms sell electrical appli­ articles, how they will perform, and the ances, including television sets and radios. services that will be provided. The Bill Within the warranty period of six months, prevents misleading statements designed to those firms contact people who have pur­ gull the public. chased their goods to find out if they are Another section of the legislation requires working satisfactorily or need any adjust­ that advertisements state the cash price of ment. This is done widely in America and articles, not merely the amounts of deposits I have no doubt that more and more firms and weekly payments. Hitherto, articles will demonstrate that they are reputable firms have been advertised at so much deposit and by adopting this practice. This will come so much a week, and purchasers were unable about because of the introduction of this to ascertain the real cost. A person may legislation. say, "I got this article for $2 deposit and The Bill defines the word "consumer." $1 a week," and those may seem very Whilst incorporated persons and business favourable terms. However, the purchaser partnerships could be consumers, the Bill then finds out that he will be paying for the prescribes that they are not consumers. Under article for many years. The Bill overcomes the Bill, a consumer is John Citizen. The that situation. definition did not spell out the position Under another good provision of the Bill, clearly and it is now being amended. the component parts of the contents will The Bill provides for the Commissioner for have to be shown on food containers. It Consumer Affairs to be a member of the will be stated in simple language how much Consumer Affairs Council. Previously he flour, protein, and so on, a product contains, was not. but manufacturers will not be forced to disclose what may be trade secrets. It would Difficulty has been experienced, because be unfair to require them to do so. There of sickness and other causes, in forming the are some recipes that have been handed quorum of eight, and it has been found down from person to person, and it would necessary to reduce the number to six, which be unfair if a manufacturer was required to I believe is an effective number. disclose his trade secrets to his competitors. The Bill provides that traders must give Mr. Sherrington: What about pies, without information to inspectors and that that evid­ any meat in them, for 20 cents? ence is admissible before a small claims tribunal. At first sight it would appear that Mr. R. E. MOORE: Vilma Ward was able we are forcing people to give evidence against to make pies with meat in them for less. themselves. However, I repeat that the She did the "loaves and fishes" act with a evidence is admissible in a small claims pound of steak. I do not know how she did tribunal and not in criminal cases. If neither it. I have not eaten any of her pies, but the Consumer Affairs Council nor the Con­ she must have used some substitute. sumer Affairs Bureau can obtain this evid­ Mr. Davis: Meat. ence, it cannot work effectively. Therefore it has been found necessary to introduce Mr. R. E. MOORE: I do not know what this proposal. It has been enacted in Vic­ the substitute for meat is. Perhaps it is toria and in other States, and we are follow­ similar to what is between the ears of the ing suit. I had some misgivings, but the honourable member for Brisbane-solid Minister convinced me that this is the only meat. way that the Council can operate effectively. Under ihe Bill, the Minister must give approval before an inspector can proceed l\l!r. Hanson: Did you take much convinc­ against any person who does not comply ing? with the provisions of the Act. This will Mr. R. E. l\'IOORE: I always have to be prevent officers from becoming over­ convinced by logical argument. If the officious. Some officers can on occasions Minister can put up a logical argument, I become over-officious and over-zealous. The will go along with him. If he cannot I Minister will now have to give approval will not. ' before action can be taken against any person. There will not now be any frivolous Mr. Wright: I thought you wrote the actions. legislation. Mr. Wright: You want to restrict them, that's all. How many prosecutions have Mr. R. E. MOORE: I am a member of taken place? the Minister's committee, and I had a hand in it. If I see a flaw in the legislation, the Mr. R. E. MOORE: I do not mind Minister is only too happy to consider restricting them at all, because life is snch it. He is amenable to amendments if he that if you give some men a stick, they will feels that changes are warranted. We are want to belt you with it. That applies to not like A.L.P. members who put their the honourable member for Rockhampton. hands up and bow when asked to. Mr. Hanson interjected. Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3559

Mr. R. E. MOORE: I will not say any­ Let us look first at the provision which the thing about Wally Bourke, because he Minister had the audacity to bring before happens to be a friend of mine. He has no the Committee and which was lauded by the political ambitions, because he knows how honourable member for Windsor. Unfortun­ hopeless his position would be, especially in ately, the honourable member seems to suffer the seat of Windsor. However, be that as from foot-and-mouth disease. Every time he it may. opens his mouth he puts his foot in it, and Protection is to be provided for an he did so on two occasions today. He lauded employee who simply obeys orders of an the Minister for bringing down legislation employer when the employer is in effect that gives the Minister the sole authority to culpable. He is also covered in relation to detern1ine who shall be prosecuted. any information he gives about his employer. Mr. Knox: No. That is in the existing Broadly, those are some of the important Act; I am changing it in the Bill. provisions in the Bill. The proposed amend­ ments, of course, will not be the last ones Mr. SHERRINGTON: What are you that will be made to the Consumer Affairs changing it to? Act. After all, legislation to some extent Mr. Knox: To the Commissioner. becomes a battle of wits. As a sharpshooter finds a way through it, the Government will Mr. SHERRINGTON: The Minister is plug the loopholes, but it is not intended to transferring this authority to the Commis­ make life intolerable for the trader. The sioner, yet the honourable member for Government could go further, as other States Windsor said he applauded the fact that the have done, but it does not intend to do that. Minister was the only person who held it. It lf this will suffice, we will let it go at that. would be the same thing as if the Minister in On the other hand, if, with the passage of charge of police was the only person who time and experience, it is seen that the legis­ could say that a law-breaker was to be lation needs amending, it will be amended. prosecuted. Mr. SHERRINGTON (Salisbury) (3.56 In terms of consumer protection, why does p.m.): I join with other honourable members the Minister have to give somebody else on this side of the Chamber in voicing criti­ the authority to decide whether a firm, com­ cism of what has come to be regarded in pany or person should be prosecuted? There this State as the first move towards consumer should oe only one qualification: whether protection. I have said before-and I think a firm, company or person has broken the it is worth repeating-that it should be called Jaw. If a firm, company or person has consumer resuscitation rather than consumer broken the law, it or he should be the target protection, because I have not been able to of prosecution. It should not be a matter discern anything in the Act that attempts to of somebody deciding whether to proceed prevent the robbing of the public or the mis­ v.ith a prosecution. If evidence is available leading of the public, which, to me, represents to prove that the law has been broken, it true consumer protection. should be mandatory that the Consumer Affairs Bureau launch a prosecution. I I do not usually worry about the lesser return to my cynicism about the Consumer lights in the Chamber, such as the honourable Affairs Bureau. This Parliament is regaled member for Toowong, but I should like to with reports which indicate that so many com­ answer a few of his criticisms of the con­ plaints have been made ,to the Bureau and tribution of my colleague the shadow Minister that so many have been resolved to the satis­ for Justice. He complained that this terrible faction of the consumer. What I have to person from Rockhampton was out after say is not in criticism of the personal blood because he had not seen the Consumer attributes of the Bureau staff. I have too Affairs Bureau prosecute anybody, and that high a respect for public servants to want this was totally wrong and represented a to reflect on them. It is because of the witch-hunt by the honourable member for anaemic legislation dealing with consumer Rockhampton. He also complained bitterly protection in this State that undesirable because the honourable member for Rock­ situations arise. hampton had the temerity to suggest that I propose to mention my wife's experience some of the traders in the community should with consumer protection. About 18 months be fined as a result of action taken by the Consumer Affairs Bureau. or two years ago she went into a large retail store in the city. I will not name it, Since I have been a member of this although I will supply the name to the Assembly I have never been critical of the Minister if he wants it. While she was Public Service or of its officers, and what I shopping she noticed that shoulders of bacon intend to say now is in no way to be con­ were 55c a lb. She .thought, "I will carry strued as personal criticism of members of on with my shopping now, but when I am the Consumer Affairs Bureau. But a few leaving rthe store I will pick up a piece of months after the Bureau came into being, bacon for the week-end." One hour and ten people were running round and saying that minutes later she went to the counter to it had become a toothless tiger, and I believe huy some bacon but found that its price had that some of the amendments now proposed risen to 65c a lb.-a IOc increase in liMle will transform it from a toothless tiger into more than an hour. Being prepared to a gummy shark. argue about it, she said, "I should have 3560 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill come here an hour ago." The shop assistant Mr. SHERRINGTON: It applies to soap, asked, "Why?" She said, "You were selling cigarettes and a host of other items. I chal­ this bacon then for 55c a lb." He said, "Oh, lenge any one of those persons to prove his no; that was three or four hours ago." My claim that, for example, he has eaten Uncle wife said "No, it wasn't. It was exactly Toby's rolled oats for 10 years and that one hour and 10 minutes ago when I went it has made him a champion footballer, or past this counter." He went into a great that he has drunk Foster's lager for years spiel about having a couple of pieces of and that it has improved his stamina as a bacon that they wanted 1to get rid of. front-row forward for Brothers. I will say this for Hogan, who tells us, "Anyhow, I wrote a letter on this matter to the have a Winfield": he does not claim to Commissioner for Consumer Affairs. The smoke that brand of ciga,rette. complaint was investigated, and in due course I was ~told that because the bacon had been This is a serious maHer. Many members exposed to fluorescent light there had been of the community are taken in by this type a certain deterioration of colour on the out­ of advertising and purchase the products side strip, although it was perfectly edible that are brought to their attention and that and palatable. For that reason the company in some instances contain about 90 per cent was selling it for 1Oc a lb. less. The matter of muck. Tennis and football stars are was never resolved to my satisfaction. I allowed to advertise in this way in return was so flabbergasted that such a flimsy pretext for payola, amd it is time the Consumer should be offered as a reason that I decided Affairs Bureau did something about it. to "give the matter away". The additional All that the Bureau does is receive com­ lOc a lb. did not particularly worry me or plaints from dissatisfied customers. I challenge my wife, but lOc a lb. on a 5lb. shoulder the Minister to tell me of one case in of bacon would represent the price of a which the Bureau has fmestalled misleading pound of butter to the working man. That advertising or phony salesmanship. It is is ~the sort of thing that goes on in this city. nothing more than a receiving ,:entre for Such "jazz" as saying that the bacon was complaints lodged by victims of shady trading discoloured is the way these things are sup­ practices. posedly resolved to the satisfaction of the consumer. What consumer could dispute this, Mr. Himze: The Minister has made a if he \'-'anted 'to? statement about it. Mr. SHERRINGTON: What a ridiculous I do not intend to become involved in comment! Apparently the honourable member the argument over Farmer Greenfield's believes that all these shady characters con­ Family Foods; the honourable member for gregate in Parliament House and, afteT the Toowoomba North has covered it in full. Minister has made a statement, run for However, I wonder how much longer the cover. I have said repeatedly in this Chamber Minister and the Consumer Affairs Bureau that we should be providing consumer pro­ will allow a member of the community, in tection, not consumer resuscitatio·n, which return for payola, to pose as an authority thi\S legislation is merely designed to provide. on Farmer Greenfield's Family Foods or, The honourable member for Windsor made for that matter, any other commodity. another great boo-boo~- Mr. Hinze: What about Vilma Ward? She Mr. R. E. Moore: T·he legislation deals was in it. with consumer affairs, not consumer pro­ tection. Mr. SHERRINGTON: I am not concerned Mr. SHERRINGTON: It certainly relates about Vilma Ward or anyone else personally; to consumer affairs. I have not seen any I am speaking about everyone who sets consumer protection emanating from it. himself or herself up as an expert on certain items. In the name of consumer protection The honourable member for Windsor said I ask the Minister how long will he allow that the Act is to be strengthened by tennis players to tell the community tbaJt reducing from eight to six the number of they have been eating a certain brand of members of the Council required to form rolled oats for years and that, as a result, a quorum. He said this was necessary their bowels have improved to such an because difficulty had been experienced in extent that they have succeeded in becoming getting members of the Council together. tennis stars? How long will he allow foot­ Mr. R. E. Moore: I made no such ball players to advertise Brylcream? How assertion. Through a slip of the tongue I long will he allow certain persons to pose said "Minister" when I meant to say as experts in spite of the fact that in all "Commissioner". probability they have never used the com­ modity they advertise? Naturally, these Mr. SHERRINGTON: I will not call the prominent tennis acnd football players are quite honourable member for Windsor a liar. If I willing to advertise the commodities in this did, I would be called to order. The point way because they aTe paid for it. is that he distinctly said that difficulty was experienced in getting eight members of the Mr. R. E. Moore: That applies to every Council together. Surely the answer to the soap ad, too. problem is not to reduce the number to six, Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3561 but to sack those who are not doing their before making purchases, the whole question job. The Minister should not reduce the of consumer protection is a misnomer. All number to form a quorum simply because that is happening at the moment is that the the members are not showing up. He should sack those members who are not sufficiently culprit is being tracked down after the crime interested to play their part. The Govern­ has been committed. ment should get rid of the dead wood on this Council just as the public got rid of the Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (4.16 p.m.): Con­ dead wood in the Brisbane City Council last sumer protection in Queensland is an Saturday, despite the Minister for Local expensive joke, and it is the consumer who Government. pays the piper. At one stage or another, every member of this Parliament has been Any country in the world that has intro­ contacted by people complaining that they duced legislation similar to this has been have been to the Consumer Affairs Bureau, concerned with consumer protection of the or that they have told a firm that they type I have advocated over the years. I do intended to contact the Bureau, only to be not know how often I have called on the told not to do so because the Bureau is a Government to use the Consumer Affairs commercial joke. All that the Bureau does Bureau and Council to provide guidance for is write to the firm, enclosing a copy of the the people. The honourable member for letter or complaint that the consumer has Rockhampton read from a pamphlet pre­ lodged. The firm then writes back a smarmy pared by the Consumer Affairs Bureau. I letter setting out its case, whether it is true do not intend to "rubbish" it because I have or not, and very little is done about it. It not read it. Surely, in all seriousness, we do is a complete cover-up for the firm, because not believe that consumer protection ends the businessman has the right of reply to the with the issuing of a pamphlet, however laudable it may be. How often have I complaint of a consumer. urged that the Consumer Affairs Bureau This Government is a "19 per cent" Gov­ adopt an insignia similar to the one used in ernment, and that is the sort of representation Sweden, where the Kite brand has become it is giving the people of Queensland on the universally recognised. In that country, any Consumer Affairs Bureau. It is all right for company that wishes to indicate to the the Government to rig the boundaries to public that it has a product that is good keep itself in power, but it is rigging the and reasonably priced submits that product consumer affairs system to allow people who to the consumer affairs body, which, if it do not represent any reasonably sized section feels that the product gives fair value for of the consuming public to be members of money, issues a seal of approval for use by the Council. And I refer to the lady who the company. A heavy penalty is imposed has been mentioned so often in this Chamber. on any person who misuses this seal of Her organisation has very few members. She approval. has been challenged and has had to back down Nothing like that originates with our on the group's rules because they are Consumer Affairs Bureau. Whatever is done undemocratic. She limits the membership of originates with the Australian Standards the organisation. She spends most of her Association. It gives its recommendation time on radio or television, advertising because it thinks the product is good, not products whose manufacturers are robbing the because it receives payola from a company. members of her association. Her association There is a vast difference between properly hands out nice little bouquets to organisations protecting the public by way of an official that advertise cigarettes. Yet the health seal and what is done by the organisations authorities and most other responsible people in the community which give a product their in the country say that those advertisements blessing because they receive payola. should not be allowed on television and radio and that tobacco endangers one's health. What Instead of introducing these piddling a consumer-protection operator she is! amendments, the Minister should start doing something about consumer protection. He Now that we are talking of giving 18-year­ should be trying to help people who are olds the vote, why not appoint to the Council unable to discern whether a product has representatives of the Public Industries quality or is reasonably priced. This can be Research Group from the university. These done only by the Consumer Affairs Bureau young men and women compiled a list of affording such a service. No matter how 7,000 people who were prepared to pay a poorly a person was educated in consumer certain amount each year into their organisa­ protection, once he could recognise a seal tion to undertake a great deal of research of approval issued by the Bureau, he could into consumer protection. P.I.R.G. members buy a product bearing that seal with com­ have been prepared to "take on" the mock­ plete confidence. He would know that the auction people, only to be thrown out of product was recommended by the Bureau their premises. They were acting on behalf and that misuse of the seal attracted a heavy of the consumers. By their action they have penalty. He would know that a manufac­ really displayed an interest in consumer pro­ turer could only obtain the use of the seal tection. Their representative should be by proving to the Bureau's satisfaction that appointed to the Consumer Affairs Council his product was really good. Until that is if we are to substantially strengthen consumer done to help people make up their minds protection. 3562 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

Not long ago a lady told me that the we out to protect the consumer, and isn't Consumer Affairs Bureau and the Consumer that the person who is buying the goods? Affairs Council reminded her of Dickens's Why, then, restrict the Act to deprive people "Bleak House", in which this passage can who purchase goods that are overpriced and be found- of poor quality of its protection? Surely "This is the Court of Chancery which people are not being "wiped" simply because has it~ decaying houses and its blighted they are businessmen? What happens if a lands m every shire, which has its worn-out couple of young men in business buy some lunatic in every madhouse and its dead letraset and they find that it has dried up, in every churchyard, which has its ruined as happens in the case of this particular type suitor with his slipshod heels and thread­ of printing material? Are we being fair in bare dress borrowing and begging through saying that they cannot complain about it? the_ rouf.!d of every man's acquaintance, The supplier could be selling retail to the wh1ch g1ves to monied might the means public, but they cannot complain about his abundantly of wearying out the right, which operations. so exhausts finances, patience, courage, So far as false advertising is concerned, hope, so overthrows the brain and breaks problably one of the greatest examples of the heart, that there is not an honourable this has been seen lately. It has been dis­ man among its practitioners who would not cussed in this Chamber, and it is continuing. give--who does not often give-the warn­ I remind the Committee that the President ing, 'Suffer any wrong that can be done of the United States has said- you rather than come here!'" "Every consumer has the right to make That is what happens in the Consumer Affairs an intelligent choice among products and Bureau. Woman after woman has cried to services . . . and to expect that he will me about some of the shyster furniture dealers receive accurate information on which to and retailers who have been able to use the make his free choice, and to expect that Consumer Affairs Bureau as the means of his health and safety is taken into account their protection rather than as the staff and by those who seek his patronage." the strong arm of the consumer. The last report of the Consumer Affairs The Minister said that the Bill will define Bureau referred to the "Bex and cup of tea" "Consumer". Businessmen are now not to type of advertising. What have we done be. recognised as consumers. Why is this about that type of advertising, which could bemg done? Why shouldn't businessmen, affect people's health? The Health Depart­ who are convers"?t with their industry, be ment is urging a reduction of the quantity allowed to complam to the Consumer Affairs of analgesics and barbiturates used in this Bureau about unfair practices or false adver­ State. The Health Department says that tising on the part of competitors? Shouldn't these drugs are dangerous, and should be we be prepared to listen when businessmen used sparingly. Chemists in the United ~ay that what other businessmen are claiming States have said in a report that care must IS not true? Surely we should listen if a be taken in advertising any product that is businessman says, "It isn't true that the list dangerous. Yet we do nothing about this price of that article is $200," when he knows type of advertising. We do .not follow the that it is being bought for less all over thoughts of the President of the United States, the town? Surely businessmen should be the home of free enterprise, in this matter. allowed to go to the Consumer Affairs We should be concerned at the tendency Bureau and say, "People are being taken of some advertisers to walk as close as pos­ down by this firm." But, because they are sible to the line separating what is legal businessmen, this Bill says they are not going from what is illegal. to be allowed to complain. I complained last year about a firm called I make this point with special reference to Monarch Industries, which was operating in land on islands in the Moreton Bay area. the fibreglass boat and furniture industry, I refer to places such as Macleay, Russell and was robbing ordinary citizens. I was and Karragarra Islands. Last year in this told that its operations did not come within Chamber, in answer to a series of questions the ambit of the Consumer Affairs Bureau. that I asked the Minister for Local Govern­ Today the ambit of the Bureau is being ment, I was assured by the Minister that reduced, because it is being made clear that these islands would be brought under local­ businessmen are not to be covered. authority control, and that those owning land on them would then have to pay rates and Let us talk about traders and businessmen taxes. for a moment. It seems to me that in respect of every piece of motel furniture The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I every commercial carpet for an office and remind the honourable member that the every piece of equipment used in an office, Committee is dealing with consumer affairs. such as typewriters, dictaphones, chairs and tables, under this Bill no businessman could Mr. BURNS: We are talking about honest complain if he received a bad deal. It advertising, and I understood that the would therefore seem that if a person set Minister mentioned false and misleading himself up in the field of commercial supplies, statements about goods and services. Is not he could rob as much as he liked. Aren't a block of land a piece of "goods", and is it Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3563

not false and misleading to advertise it in is not classed as false advertising. If it this way? I submit that it is, and I want is so classed, nothing is being done about to continue with this proposition. it. I then asked the Minister for Justice I think it is about time that the Con­ would he have the Consumer Affairs Bureau sumer Affairs Bureau-a good idea that has investigate this matter, and he said he would. gone wrong-began putting inspectors into On 1 April 1973-only two days agO­ the field to check on consumer complaints. two advertisements, copies of which I have When a consumer complains and a letter here, appeared in a newspaper. The first is received from the firm in reply and there one is headed "Tropic Isle Land" and is is an obvious disagreement between the con­ an advertisement by Russell Island Sales, sumer and the firm, an inspector should Second Floor, 38 College Street Sydney. be sent into the field. It may be necessary It says, "Free of rates and tax~s." The for the Bureau to have its own legal staff second one is an advertisement by Tweed to deal with some of the problems sur­ Valley Pastoral Co., care of Harry Londy, rounding the legality of the action taken. Tweed Valley Pastoral Representative Sebel The prime necessity is to protect the con­ Town House, 23 Elizabeth Bay Road,' Eliza­ sumer. beth Bay, Sydney. It relates to the Trade Although the Minister has been trying Winds Estate on Macleay Island and the to achieve something in many of the Bills Bayvie;~v Estate on Russell Island, and it he has introduced, I think he has found that says, No rates or taxes." the Country Party stranglehold around his All honourable members are aware that neck has been holding him back. The old the Minister for Local Government intends "free enterprisers", like the honourable to bring these islands under the control of members for Toowong and Windsor-the a loc_al authority. He has announced that fellows who introduced the City of Brisbane Act Amendment Bill and brought them­ ~n this Chamber and it has been publicised m all the newspapers. Honourable mem­ selves undone-have helped to draft this Bill bers know, the Consumer Affairs Bureau and have brought the Consumer Affairs knows, 3:nd eve~ybody in Queensland who Bureau undone. has any mterest m the affairs of this Parlia­ Hon. W. E. KNOX (Nundah-Minister ment s~ould know. Yet two days ago for Justice) (4.28 p.m.), in reply: The people mserted these advertisements in a newspaper, knowing full well that those who debate has covered a wide range of matters relating to consumers, and I will deal with bought. the la_nd would be paying rates and some of the points raised by the various taxes Immediately the relevant Bill was members who took part in it. passed by. this Assembly. They are cer­ tamly shdmg along the line. There are The honourable member for Rockhampton no rates now, but there will be before said that the existing legislation has very very long. Honourable members know that little teeth and that there is no legal­ th_ese advertisements are false and that people advisory section. It was agreed when the :-"Ill be taken down by them, yet nothing legislation was introduced a little over two Is done about it. years ago that it was not known to what Surely the Government must admit that extent it would be necessary to pursue some there ar_e no teeth in our consumer legislation. matters such as consumer self-help, protec­ There Is no protection for the consumer tion or education, whichever way one looks a~1d these land sales are acts of shee; at it. As a result of the experience over Piracy. Knowing full well what this Parlia­ two years, we are now in a better position ~~nt !ntends doing, these people are adver­ than we were then to make some intelligent tismg Internationally-in London-and in the amendments to the Act. Indeed, as a southern States, but not in Queensland result of experience with the Consumer because they have received such a blast Affairs Bureau, the Government saw its from the Minister for Local Government way clear to introduce legislation amending about what he intends doing to the islands other Acts and establishing small claims ~hat they would probably run into trouble tribunals. If they advertised here. I think it should be established that millions of transactions take place every year in the T~e same argument can be used in respect community, of all types and sizes. Most of of discounts and "specials". They also are them are satisfactorily concluded, to the false. ~dvertising. There should be a clear benefit of the seller and the consumer, with defimtwn of what a discount is and what "specials" are, or we should outlaw them no problems at all. Because of the over­ becaus_e. at present they are used in fals~ concentration on some instances of failure to achieve satisfactory value-for-money advert1sm~. Salesmen are saying, "$500 off, and we will also throw in a washing machine exchange, the impression can be gained that a. television set, and a . camera for you; such problems dominate the scene. That is kids. All you have to buy Is one refrigerator." far from the true position. The fact is that millions of transactions take place each year It is an impossible situation, but advertise­ which are satisfactory and without problems. ments . of that type appear on television. As in most things where human nature is The discount is more than the value of invol':ed_, ~nd where society is fairly dynamic the article bought. Somehow or other that -as It 1s m our case-there are going to be 3564 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill some drop-out problems, and some failures. the number is hundreds a year, not thousands. We have it in the consumer area, just as we Of the millions of transactions that take have it in other social areas. place in the community, only a relatively In moving to strengthen the Consumer small number reach the situation of impasse Affairs Act, care has to be exercised that we where people do not seem to be satisfied. are not in fact using a sledge-hammer to While people feel they have good grounds crack a nut or over-reacting to simple circum­ for complaint and should receive satisfaction, stances requiring only simple solutions. It I am sure that when it comes to the crunch behoves us to ensure that in tackling problems many of those persons who seek redress confronting consumers we do not create more from the small claims tribunal will be dis­ than we are solving. Therefore it is highly appointed in that the referee will m_ake a desirable that we proceed with a certain determination against them on the bas1s that amount of reasonable caution in some of the complaint is either not valid or not made these areas in order to discover exactly what on good grounds. It is true that the Bureau we want to do before we provide the necessary is not able to give satisfaction to some of power in legislation. those people who feel aggrieved and reach This series of amendments will add con­ the end of the road, but it is that situation siderably to the strength of the Consumer that this Bill is designed to correct. Affairs Bureau in matters on which hitherto the Bureau and the Commissioner had not It is not to be assumed that everyone been able to move satisfactorily. The criticism who complains to the Bureau makes a jus­ of several honourable members about the tifiable complaint. I hope that just because limitations of the Bureau up till now are somebody complains about a trader it will valid ones, but I make no apology for the not be assumed that the complaint is a fact that there have been limitations, because sound one. we felt the need to discover the nature of Mr. Wright: You also said that many com­ the problem, identify it and define it clearly plaints are not taken to the Bureau. before we moved. In the main, the amend­ ments are major departures from the policy Mr. KNOX: That is true. In fact I of the Bureau and the Act limitations that would hope that most complaints would not have applied for the last two years. be taken to the Bureau and that people who lt is not necessary for the Bureau to have have a problem with a trader will approach a legal-advisory section for its own purposes him with a view to having the matter settled because the full ramifications and facilities then and there. Those traders who are of the Crown Law Office are available to it, and it uses them frequently. proud of their name and products are keen to fix up the complaints to the satisfaction Mr. Wright: I accept your point that the of the consumer. I am sure that honourable advice of the Crown Law Office is available members can think of many people who do to it, but it is not available to the consumer as an individual. this of their own volition. Indeed, the Bureau asks people whether they have been Mr. KNOX: The Bureau has been respon­ to the trader concerned before it will act sible for seeing that a number of consumers on their behalf. It is of great importance were placed in the hands of the Legal Assist­ ance Committee so that they could be assisted that people approach traders, because, as I with their legal problems. have said, the majority of them are anxious to protect their goodwill and good name. Mr. Burns: Legal aid? Nevertheless, there are some not-so-honest Mr. KNOX: Yes. It has also advised traders. I am sure honourable members people to go to the Public Curator Office know of some, I know of some, and the for legal advice. Others have been able to Bureau knows them all. The few traders who get legal advice from solicitors. There is no are not prepared to give full value will soon shortage of avenues for legal advice. In respect of consumers who reach the end-of­ feel the heavy hand of the law upon them. the-line position and can see no prospect of It is also true that prosecutions have been satisfaction, the Bureau has been successful lodged as a result of complaints madt: to the in placing them in the hands of people com­ Bureau. The Bureau is not reqUired to petent to give them legal advice. I cannot launch prosecutions, but in matters involving see the necessity for the Bureau to have a fraud, or wrongful or misleading adver_tising, whole team of people itself to do that sort it brings the circumstances to the not1ce of of work. the police. Some advertising contravenes Mr. Wrigi1t: Could you see it as an the Vagrants, Gaming and Other Offen~es advantage? Act, and if it is brought to the attentiOn of the Bureau it is then passed on to the Mr. KNOX: I do not see it as a great police. The honourable member for l.ytton advantage at this stage because the number referred to the advertising of land. This is of complaints which reach this dead-end covered by section 37 A of the Vagrants, situation is very small indeed. As I said when Gaming and Other Offences Act, and the introducing the Small Claims Tribunals Bill, Minister in charge of Police is examining Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3565 this advertising to determine whether or not a great deal of time by simply tabling them a prosecution should be lodged under that so that they could be formerly recorded. section. We all know about them, and we have seen Mr. Wright: How many prosecutions have them and read them. been lodged under the Consumer Affairs Mr. Wdgbt: I do not think you have. Act? Mr. KNOX: Indeed I have. Mr. KNOX: Very few indeed. I wonder what the purpose of the exercise Mr. Davis: None. was. In the Budget Debate in November last, I spoke of Mrs. Hora~'s position on . the Mr. KNOX: I am not worried by the fact Consumer Affairs Counc1! and her relat!On­ that there have not been any, because any ship with Farmer Greenfield. I said then practices that are considered to be illegal -and I have checked the records to confirm are adequately handled under existing legisla­ my recollection of what I said-th<;t. J tion. We certainly do not want to bring firmly believed Mrs. Horan was receJvmg within the ambit of this Act all those matters remuneration for her work for Farmer Green­ that are covered by existing legislation. There field. are Acts relating to health, the sale of liquor, the quality of food and drugs, under all Mr. Wright: But she said she was not. of which prosecutions are lodged. The Bureau is able to place complaints that Mr. KNOX: I realise that, but that does arise under those Acts into the hands of the not worry me. I am pointing out what I particular authorities concerned. Indeed, the believed the situat,ion to be in November advertising of second-hand motor vehicles last year when this matter was raised. has been brought to the attention of the I assume that any personality in the com­ appropriate authority. munity who becomes involved in recommend­ The honourable member for Tonwong ing a product receives remuneration. for pointed out that this legislation was adding doing so. That is a normal, pmfess10nal value to the Consumer Affacirs Bure,au. I business activity with which people can be forecast that, two years from nnw, further legitimately associated. I said on that amendments will be enacted as we discover occasion, and I repeat, that any person more about what is going on in the com­ not a director or policy controller of an munity, thanks to the Bureau's activities. organisation who allows his name to be The Bureau's files contain information that associated with a product produced in Aus­ will lead us quite clearly in the direction we tralia or elsewhere, must realise that he should be following in future legislative has no contml over the policy of the action. At this stage I would hesitate to organisation. If it is an organisation of say that we have thought of all avenues doubtful value, he can suffe,r because of of protectinn that are needed by the con­ his association with it. In the case of sumer. Farmer Greenfield, I said then, and I repeat it, that certain practices of the organisation The present legislation will make it pos­ were undesirable and anti-social, and that sible for the Bureau to move into the people being taken down 'by it should seek more important areas of its work such as redress. And quite a number of them have education and self-help and where it will done so. provide an opportunity for people to become bctte'r informed as consumers. The honour­ Mr. Wright: In the last week over 100 able member for Rockhampton dealt with people in Central Queensland have been this matter. I could not agree with him taken in by Farmer Greenfield. more. Indeed, that should be the Bureau's main function. If some of the problems Mr. KNOX: People can seek redress and that take up an enormous amnunt of time a number of cases involving Farmer Green­ can be removed from its plate, the Bureau field are under way at the moment. will be able to devote itself to the field If Mrs. Horan, or anyone else, wishes of education. If we can educate the public to become associated with this sort of widely and deeply enough, many of the organisation, she does so at her nwn risk. problems confronting consumers today will not occur. They will be more discriminating Mr. Wrigbt: But the point is that she is and able to effectively check people in the on the Consumer Affairs Council. community who are trying to mislead them. Mr. KNOX: Let us examine Mrs. Horan's The honourable member for Toowoomba pmition on the Council. I have found no North again raised the issue of Mrs. Horan evidence yet that she has used the name and Farmer Greenfield. Every honourable of the Council or the fact that she is a member has seen the documents he referred member of it in any promotional work to: they have been in circulation around that she has undertaken for Farmer Green­ Parliament House for four or five weeks. field or any other firm. And she promotes Various members of the news medi,a, police the goods of several other firms. and so on have had access to them. They have been around the "ridges" so long that Mr. Bousen: Everybody knows that she is the honourable member could have saved on the Council. 114 3566 Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Act

Mr. KNOX: Other people on the Council an untruth. The Minister is in reply. He are associated with enterprises and organisa­ listened to the arguments advanced by tions that come under public attack from honourable members and I ask them to time to time. extend him the same courtesy. Mr. Bousen: But they are not involved to the same extent. Mr. KNOX: As I said earlier, honourable members are becoming bored with this Mr. KNOX: I do not know why the attack on Mrs. Horan. Let us assume that honourable member singles out Mrs. Horan Mrs. Horan did tell an untruth about her for this type of persecution. Honourable association with that firm. I well recall my members are becoming bored with the words last November when I assumed that repeated attacks that are being made on her. she was receiving remuneration. I still want She has to answer for herself. I am not here to know what consequence it is to this to defend her or to applaud her for her Committee if she told an untruth. What work with Farmer Greenfield. She has consequence is it to her position on the allowed her name to be associated publicly Council? with that organisation. If there are any Mr. Bousen: It would prejudice the deci­ consequences that are not in her favour, sion of the Council-particularly her decision that is her business and she has to 'look -in a case involving Farmer Greenfield. out for herself. What I am concerned about is the position Mr. KNOX: Matters concerning Farmer of members of the Consumer Affairs Greenfield would not go to the Consumer Council. All of them have been working as Affairs Council for determination. What best they can. They have given a lot of tripe! their time for very small remuneration. As Mr. F. P. Moore: Why don't they? far as I know, Mrs. Horan has at no time used the name of the Council or her position Mr. KNOX: They go to the Consumer on it to advance the cause of any product. Affains Bureau. The Council is purely an If indeed she or any other member of the advisory body. Opposition members do not Council has used the Council for personal understand the ramifications and workings profit or advancement, and it is brought to of this operation. my attention-and I ask any honourable Mr. Wright: If the Council carried out member to do so if he wishes-I will take an investigation into food-freezer plans, it suitable action under the provisions of the would go there. Act and dismiss that member of the Council. But this issue should not be dragged through Mr. KNOX: I imagine that, if there was this Chamber as if it were a matter of an investigation (whether it was food-freezer great consequence to us. It may be of plans, selling of meat in a butcher shop or consequence to Mrs. Horan and to Farmer drugs in a chemist shop), any Council Greenfield. At the moment, with the know­ member would declare his interest, if he ledge I have, I do not think it is a matter had any. It would be a matter for the of consequence to us. It is a pity that the chairman and Council to decide whether time of this Parliament is wasted on this that person should participate in the dis­ sort of fruitless persecution of a lady who cussion on that matter. is prepared to give of her time to the Consumer Affairs Council. Mr. Wright: Whom does she represent? Mr. Wright: This would not have been The ACTING CHAIR1\1AN: Order! I continued had she not lied. ask the honourable member for Rockhampton to allow the Minister to reply. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable member for Rockhampton Mr. KNOX: If there is to be an advisory accused a person of lying. I ask him to body such as the Consumer Affairs Council, withdraw it. it is inevitable that one or other of its members will be involved in some of the Mr. WRIGHT: I rise to a point of order. activities in which the Council has an interest. I have no doubt that members declare their The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Did I mis­ interest as the occasion arises, and I have hear the honourable member? no doubt that Mrs. Horan has so declared Mr. WRIGHT: I did not accuse the her interest. Minister of lying. Mr. Bousen: Thafs wishful thinking. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: No. The honourable member accused M!'s. Horan of Mr. KNOX: I hope we have heard the lying. end of this nonsense, because I cannot see that the line being taken by honourable Mr. WRIGHT: I believe that it is my members opposite serves any great purpose. right to do so. I have been asked for weeks, "When are we going to hear about Mrs. Horan and The ACTING CHAIRMAN: I would Farmer Greenfield's Family Foods, and when not have thought so. I would have preferred will the documents be produced?" I have the honourable member to say that it was been saying, "Wait till the Consumer Affairs Consumer Affairs Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3567

Act Amendment Bill is brought down, and Mr. KNOX: The honourable member is I am sure someone will bring it up." No not right in this matter, nor would he be doubt honourable members opposite hawked right in any other matter that requires my it round their party, and the honourable attention and the exercise of my discretion member for Toowoomba North was the in the launching of prosecutions under any lucky one chosen. He wasted the time of of the other 150 Acts that I administer. the Committee, too. If the evidence is there, and in my judgment The honourable member for Windsnr and in that of my officers a prosecution always makes a useful contribution. should be launchec:l, it will be launched. I am launching numerous prosecutions every Opposition Members interjected. week in a whole range of areas, as other Ministers are, and as they are required to Mr. KNOX: Of comse, Opposition mem­ under legislation passed by this Legislature. bers always pretend to "rubbish" him. He is There is no doubt in my mind that these a sincere member who endeavours to make are launched as a result of the best advice a worth-while contribution. He drew atten­ we can get and on the informa,tion that tion to the fact that power is being provided is provided for us. to require that the ingredients of the contents of a container be marked on the container. Mr. Sherrington: What did I say? If there At this stage, it is not intended to invoke was a breach, it should be prosecuted. these powers, because it is highly desirable that such a requirement be uniform through­ Mr. KNOX: You said it should be out the nation. I intend to speak with my mandatory. opposite numbers in the other States in Mr. Sherrington: That is right. an attempt to have this requirement imple­ mented throughout the nation. Food manu­ Mr. KNOX: Somebody has to evaluate factured in New South Wales and Victoria the evidence, form a judgment, and make and sold in Queensland would then have this the decision. In this case it will be the infc;rmation printed on the container, just Commissioner, as indeed the Commissioner as 1! would be printed on the containers of of Police does in prosecutions under the food manufactured in Queensland and Acts that he administers, as the Minister and retailed outside this State. From conversa­ the Director do under the Health Act, as the tions that I have had with some of my Minister and the Under Secretary do under opposite numbers, I am quite sure that this the Acts relating to labour and industry-- requirement will receive fairly wide acclaim. Mr. Sherrington: What about main roads? If it does, it will be a worth-while protection for the consumer. Mr. KNOX: As the Commissioner for Main Roads does, and, in the case of rail­ Th~ honourable member for Salisbury questwned the authority of the Minister or ways, as the Commissioner for Railways the Commissioner to use discretion in the does. This is not a new concept. It is a launching of prosecutions. Somebody has normal concept of administration. Some­ t? accept responsibility for launching prosecu­ body takes the responsibility for launching tions under every Act. It is not somethin"' a prosecution, and in this case it is going to that happens automatically. To use hi~ be the Commissioner, whereas previously it own words, the honourable member said has been the Minister. "If the evidence is there, prosecution should Mr. Marginson: He has wide discretionary be mandatory." There is no such thin"' powers, hasn't he? as automatic prosecution. "' Mr. KNOX: He must exercise them, other­ Mr. Sherrington: Why shouldn't it be wise injustices will occur and there will be mandatory? frivolous prosecutions by bureaucracy. Mr. KNOX: Who makes the judgment on Mr. Wright: I accept your point on that, the evidence? Somebody has to make a but do you think it is right that the Minister judgment on the launching of a prosecution. should have a discretion over the right of There is no such thing as an automatic inspectors to enter premises, as the Bill prosecution on the production of evidence. provides? Mr. Sherrington: I didn't say that, either. Mr. KNOX: The discretion is with the Commissioner; but the inspector requires a Mr. KNOX: That is what I have written warrant if he goes into enclosed premises, a down-"If evidence is there, prosecution dwelling house, or parts of premises that are should be mandatory." enclosed. Mr. Sherrington: It smacks too much of Mr. Wright: Did I hear you say that you this: if they are the Minister's friends, they could overrule the entry of premises by an can get off. inspector? Mr. KNOX: The Commissioner can. He Mr. KNOX: The honourable member may is in complete control of the operation. say that, but it is incorrect. Mr. Wright: On what grounds would he Mr. Sherrington: Don't tempt me. do it? 3568 Consumer Affairs Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

Mr. KNOX: If he has reason to believe motor-car or a lawn-mower is just as much that there is information of value to his a consumer as anybody else in the com­ inquiries that he has been prevented from munity. The corporation is not. getting, he can obtain a warrant and have the necessary searches made. There is Mr. Wright: Is •there a point between the nothing unusual about it. time when a person actually becomes a businessman and when he is still a con­ Mr. Wright: I did not hear what you said sumer? Take the group that bought the in your introductory remarks. idea of manufacturing the "Z" brick. They bought as a consumer but they never got Mr. KNOX: I emphasise that he cannot into operation as a business. The Consumer do it on a capricious whim. He has to go Affairs Bureau could not help them. through the ordinary processes to get authority to do it. Mr. KNOX: I do not know why the Con­ The honourable member for Salisbury sumer Affairs Bureau should be helping them. launched attacks on all the people, whether They should be able to take the necessary sportsmen, leaders of the Housewives' action themselves .to protect their own Association, or others, who associate them­ interests. I know tile manufactures in much selves with products. He talked about the same situation who have been sued for payola. I am not exactly sure what he means not meeting their contractual obligations. by that. I understood that payola was the All sor.ts of remedies are available to cor­ payment of money surreptitiously, not porations that are not easily available to the publicly, other people not being aware that consumer. the undercover payment was being received. Mr. Wright: They are not really a com­ In fact, the matter arose from disc jockeys pany and they are not a firm. They are giving special emphasis to particular records nothing. or to the background of certain records in their sessions and, unknown to the manage­ Mr. KNOX: If they are not a corporation, ment or anybody else, receiving large sums they are a consumer and should be able ,to of money on the side for doing that. act as a consumer. If the managing direc­ tor of the biggest company in Queensland Mr. Sherrington: Would you say that the went to a shop and bought a lawn-mower public were aware that some of the that was not satisfactory, he would be a prominent footballers, cricketers and tennis consumer under the Ac•t. I do not care what players were being paid to advertise these his title or position is, he is a consumer. If products? his company bought a number of lawn­ mowers, 1 would expect his company to look Mr. KNOX: Yes, I should say they would after its interests through the remedies av:til­ be fully aware. In fact, I would be very able to it. surprised if any member of the public doubted that the personalities who associate Mr. Wright: Would a person who was themselves with these products are being paid tied up in pyramid selling be regarded as a handsomely. In the case of Paul Hogan, I consumer? do not think there has ever been such a write-up as there has been relative to how Mr. KNOX: It is doubtful whether he much he gets, what he spends it on, and how would be because he is not consuming the he spends his time since he has been spon­ product-he is not using it. He is merely soring the Winfield programme. a franchise-holder. On the face of it, he certainly does not appear to me to be a Mr. Marginson: No Norths players would consumer. In effect he is a trader because do that, would they? he is looking for other people to whom he can get rid of the product. The businessman Mr. KNOX: They are in the business of can complain to the Consumer Affairs promotion and selling. I have no doubt that Bureau if he thinks he has reason to. Jn they receive suitable remuneration where fact he does do so, because the Bureau they are involved. If they did not, they receives many complaints from businessmen would be the first people to make a fuss who, as consumers in the community, are about it. aggrieved. Those mat.ters receive attention. Mr. Sherrington: Are you saying that Advertisements for the islands in Moreton advertising of that type should continue? Bay are appearing in southern and overseas newspapers. The matter is currently under Mr. KNOX: I find very little to criticise inquiry by the police. It is dealt with under in it. I would criticise it if it gave false section 37 A of the Vagrants, Gaming, and information. Other Offences Act. It disturbs me that a I do not quite know the purpose of the number of the advertisements contain infor­ remarks of the honourable member for mation which is quite incorrect. One of Lytton about a corporation being excluded them mentions a projected skim vessel or from the Act. All we are doing is to make hydrofoil service operating between Brisbane sure that the corporation, for the purposes and the islands. Indeed, dotted lines on a of the Act, is not regarded as a consumer. map give the impression that the service A businessman who, in his own private already exists. Mention is made of a arrangements, buys a washing machine, a Yehicular ferry all the way up the Brisbane Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amerulment Bill 3569

River. We have been in touch with the The Bill simply provides for an increase newspapers to Jet them know about this in this State's margarine quota as from 1 incorrect information, and some of the pro­ January 1973. This action is being taken prietors have refused to accept ,the advertise­ in concert with all other States and the ments. However it appears that such Commonwealth. advertisements are still appearing in some All honourable members will appreciate newspapers. All we can hope is that people that our population has increased substan­ in the South become aware of the incorrect tially since 1954, when the present Queens­ information. land quota was set. There has also been Mr. Chinchen: If the Brisbane City Council some change in eating habits. shows a railway line on a map of an area I think we are all aware that some doctors where it is not intended by the Government recommend to certain patients that they eat to construct a railway line, is that false and polyunsaturated fats. Unfortunately, there misleading? is still a Jot of confusion in the consumer's Mr. KNOX: It looks like it. I think I mind in this regard. I will not enter have seen that map. I know of no authority into the medical controversy; that is a matter which the Brisbane City Council could pos­ for the medicos to sort out. However, it sibly have used to show a railway line on is quite clear that many housewives are under the map. J,t has not yet included it in an a completely wrong impression that all mar­ advertisement; it is merely on the Town Plan. garine is polyunsaturated. That is definitely I certainly did not approve of the railway not the case. A substantial proportion of line the Brisbane City Council has on its all margarine sold in Australia consists of maps. saturated fats. That applies to a lot of table margarine. It also applies to all While it is possible that these amendments cooking margarine, including the so-called may not go as far as some honourable mem­ spreads. In fact, 90 per cent of the fat hers would wish, I assure all honourable content of cooking margarine, including the members that we are advancing the powers so-called spreads, consists of beef and mutton of the Commissioner and the Bureau con­ fat. I mention this at this stage only for siderably, that we are moving with the times the purpose of drawing attention to the in this area, and that they can anticipate fact that there are many misconceptions that in the next two years further amend­ concerning margarine. ments will be made to the Act. We are dealing with a dynamic situation in an I expect later in the year to be in a affluent community, in which consumers are position to introduce further legislation deal­ becoming better informed than previously, ing with the packaging, labelling and prt?­ and in which we will find new avenues for motion of margarine. I believe that IS consumer protection, self-help and education. necessary to overcome some of the mis­ I trust that the motion will receive the leading presentation which has been indulged approval of the Committee. in by some margarine manufacturers. Such legislation will not be in any way discrimin­ Motion (Mr. Knox) agreed to. atory. It will simply be designed to ensure Resolution reported. that the consumer knows what she, or he, is buying. Mainly, it will be aimed at ensuring FIRST READING that when a housewife wants polyunsaturated margarine that is what she gets. Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. Knox, I would have liked to include amemlments read a first time. regarding packaging and labelling . in the present Bill. However, there are still some technical details to be worked out on an MARGARINE ACT AMENDMENT BILL Australia-wide basis, and it is desirable that the provisions be uniform in all States. lNITIA TION IN CoMMITTEE The present Bill provides that the Queens­ (The Acting Chairman of Committees, land margarine quota be increased from it' Mr. Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) present level of 4,236 tons to 5,333 tonnes. Hon. V. B. SULLIV AN (Condamine- The new figure has been expressed in metric Minister for Primary Industries) (5.7 p.m.): form, but the quantity is equivalent to I ask permission to move the motion in an aporoximately 5,250 long tons. The new amended form. Q~eensland figure represents an increase of approximately 24 per cent. (Leave granted.) New quotas have been agreed upon for Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN: I move- all States. They have been worked out in "That a Bill be introduced to amend a manner that will ensure that all margarine­ the Margarine Act of 1958 in a certain manufacturing groups receive a similar per­ particular and to provide for a matter centage increase. The overall increase for incidental thereto." Australia is 37.8 per cent. This is a very short Bill. It consists of In the past, some States, particularly three clauses, only two of which are of Western Australia, South Australia and operative significance. Tasmania have had very small quotas. The 3570 Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

Victorian quota was also fairly small. In atmosphere that has prevailed whenever the present changes, those States have been margarine-butter legislation has been pro­ given a somewhat larger increase. posed. The most recent example was in For the information of honourable 1969, when margarine workers marched on members, I quote in long tons the old and Parliament House supposedly in defence of new quota figures for all States: their jobs, and Press headlines screamed varying points of view. An example appeared in "Sunday Truth" of 19 October 1969. It Old New read- " A sticky Wicket Looms for Premier Queensland 4,236 5,250 Joh. New South Wales 9,000 10,800 "He could slip on margarine." Victoria 1,196 3,400 South Australia 528 700 It speculated that any defeat of legislation Western Australia 800 1,400 to curb margarine manufacture would be Tasmania 312 600 taken by the Premier as a defeat of his leadership, and the debate on measures to 16,072 22,150 protect butter from margarine was expected to generate more heat than any other measure introduced into Parliament for some years. It will be noted from these figures that Queensland and New South Wales still have As honourable members know, that Bill the largest quotas. This is as it should be, was not introduced; it was allowed to die since these two States, particularly Queens­ on the Business Paper. An article in land, are the main centres of production of "The Courier-Mail" of 17 October 1969 vegetable oilseeds for edible purposes. is headed, "Professor asks consumers for As far a:s polyunsaturated oils are con­ 'ban on butter'." Another is headed "ALP. cerned, safflower and sunflower are the two must declare attitude-Premier." main crops. Virtually the whole of the The Premier, of course, was flying a kite Australian production is centred on Queens­ to distract attention from his own embarras­ land and New South Wales. In 1972-73, sing dilemma in having oil-seed growers depending on seasonal conditions, Queens­ and cattle producers in his own electorate land production of these two oil crops is opposed to the Bill then proposed. The expected to total 66,000 tons, whilst New ALP. has no need to declare its attitude South Wales is expected to produce about to this matter. Its attitude and policy 51,000 tons. Thus, these two States will have been well known for a long time. produce some 117,000 tons out of the We contend that an Australian product (or Australian total of 120,000 tons. ingredient) has a right to compete for public I realise that concern may be felt in some acceptance on the market, provided that it dairy-industry circles about the increase. meets necessary health regulations and is In order to allay any :such fears, I point presented truthfully and without deception out that the main danger to butter sales in as to ingredients and price. The ALP. recent times has been from the so-called is of the opinion that the Government lags "spreads." They are in fact cooking marg­ greatly in legislation designed to force truth­ arine, and not table margarine, and are not ful presentation of products intended for subject to quotas. The present Bill will in human consumption. no way affect this position. However, as I indicated earlier, I hope to introduce The Minister has indicated his intention legislation later in the year to provide for to introduce, later in the year, further legis­ more honest labelling of such products. lation dealing with the packaging, labelling and promotion of margarine. Personally, Finally, I repeat that the Bill is designed I believe that lack of labelling and detailed to bring table margarine quotas into line requirements regarding content and corn­ with present-day demand. It is expected that position disadvantages some products in rela­ the increase will be mainly in the form of tion to others. I believe that butter, in products made from vegetable oils and, in relation to margarine, would be so dis­ particular, polyunsaturated margarines. It is advantaged under the present loose-labelling in this area that an apparent shortage has requirements. developed during the last year or so. The increases envisaged should ensure that The Minister has indicated the miscon­ adequate supplies are available for those who ceptions that exist about polyunsaturated want them. Like you Mr. Wharton, I shall margarine and margarine containing large stick to butter. proportions of plain animal fats. We accept I commend the motion to the Committee. those points as valid. But he also said that the legislation on labelling will not be dis­ Mr. Il\LAKE (Isis) (5.15 p.rn.): The Min­ criminatory; that it will simply be designed ister has said that this is a very short Bill. to let the housewife know what she is It may be short in length, but any legislation getting. If this stricter code of non-mislead­ that deals with the margarine-butter ques­ ing packaging is applied only to margarine tion is long and controversial in effect. and not extended to all food-stuffs, it will in Honourable members will recall the warlike fact represent a form of discrimination. Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3571

We believe that the attempt at Australian not be increased unless it was justified by labelling uniformity referred to by the Min­ costs. If that is not so, I have been greatly ister should be in keeping with the recom­ misled over the years. mended international general standards on Frequently we hear the argument that labelling for pre-packaged foods and should private enterprise and competition overcome apply to all prepackaged foods. The recom­ all price ills, but in practice private agree­ mendation reads- ments, backed by expensive "give-away" pro­ "1. 'Label' includes any tag, brand, grammes, often indicate that the benefits .of mark, pictorial or other descriptive matter, technology are not always fairly shared with written, printed, stencilled, marked, the consumers. embossed or impressed on or attached to, a container of food. The decision to increase present table mar­ garine quotas has already been taken at "2. Prepackaged food shall not be Commonwealth level. The first move to described or presented on any label or in increase the quotas was, I believe, taken in any labelling in a manner that is false, about August last The quotas at that time misleading or deceptive or is likely to were, as they still are, at an Australian per create an erroneous impression regarding capita level of 2.9 lb. a head a year. It its character in any respeot. was decided to increase these quotas at the "3. Prepackaged food shall not be des­ August meeting of the Australian Agricul­ cribed or presented on any label or in tural Council, at which the State Primary any labelling by words, pictorial or other Industries Ministers-including, I presume, devices which refer to or are suggestive the Queensland Minister for Primary either directly or indirectly, of any other Industries-accepted that

to bolster the table margarine production compete effectively. If the legislat:on ensured quota from 16,000 to 22,000 tons annually. that the increased quota would apply to poly­ This decision, I believe, is in the interests unsaturated margarine and provided of both the consuming public and the adequate protection to the Australian oil­ burgeoning oilseeds industry. Labor could seeds industry, it certainly could be claimed no longer ignore rising demands from that the industry would benefit. However, heart patients as well as ordinary con­ this depends on the whim of the margarine sumers of polyunsaturated table marg­ retailers and on their sales promotion. arine. The previous Government had Although I believe some across-the-board turned a deaf ear to such demands." increases in margarine quotas in Australia J claim that the senator's statement is are necessary, it is likely that the increased basically wrong. production will be of margarine based on animal fat, because such margarines are Mr. Sullivan: Where did he make that easier to sell and much cheaper to produce statement? than the polyunsaturated types. Mr. AHERN: At an A.L.P. rural con­ I take the honourable member for Isis ference at Healesville on Saturday, 10 March. to task on some of his comments because I believe that the Labor Party throughout Mr. Sullivan: Is that the meeting that Australia is highly vulnerable on this matter. broke up for want of a quorum? If I had to interpret the spirit of the honourable member's statement, I should Mr. AHERN: I think it was, but that is say he could be in a lot of trouble with not mentioned in this document. the butter producers in his electorate. The As I was saying, the senator's statement general tenor of his remarks was that the is basically wrong. All that an increase in quota restraint, which is imposed in the quotas will mean is a like increase in the interests of people in the dairy industry, quantity of margarine that will be marketed to protect them from an imitation product, in Australia. It is not correct to claim that should be waived, provided adequate label­ quotas are being increased in the interests of ling and health standards were complied with, the oilseeds industry. Although that thought and the product was produced by an Aus­ might have been the background to the intro­ tralian producer. duction of this legislation, I do not believe Mr. BLAKE: I rise to a point of order. that the industry wiU benefit to a great I could not have said that. I made it extent. Nor is it correct to claim that quite clear that, if the product was pre­ quotas are being increased in the interests of heart patients. sented in its natural form and correctly and truthfully labelled, we thought it had If the increase envisaged by the legislation a right to compete, but that it should not were to be confined to polyunsaturated be competing as an imitation product. vegetable margarines, there may have been some merit in the senator's claims. The Mr. AHERN: I accept the honourable Minister has foreshadowed the introduction member's statement, but he is not ready of complementary legislation in the July to concede that margarine is an imitation session of this Parliament. At the moment product. Surely that cannot be contested. With all that the increase in quota means is an all the technology available, it is dressed up increase in the marketing of table margarine to make it look like butter. The idea is to in Australia. There is no specific restriction produce something that is cheaper than to polyunsaturated margarines. butter so that, accordingly, there will be a market for it. Its manufacturers use all If effect were given to the intention behind the guile at their command to show that the legislation as claimed by Senator Wriedt, it is like butter. It is even said that it there should be such a restriction, because tastes creamy. Despite all the labelling with it the Australian oilseed producers provisions imaginable, we cannot get away would be able to compete against overseas from the basic point that margarine is being vegetable-oil producers. At present 82 per manufactured specifically as imitation butter. cent of the production of table margarine That is why, in 1969, dairy industry leaders comprises animal fat. The remaining 18 made representations to us pointing out that per cent is the polyunsaturated type. all the labelling provisions in the world The Minister has said that there is a would not give protection because the mar­ demand for polyunsaturated margarine, garine manufacturers would be able to get which is not met. It will be good if some of around them. The only way to get over the increased quota applies to polyunsatu­ that dilemma is to prevent margarine from rated margarine, but there is no earthly looking like butter or prevent manufacturers reason why all or even half of the increase from dressing it up like butter. We tried should go to it. to do that, but we ran into problems in our own party rooms, and, living in a It could not be said that the increase democracy, we had to compromise in the will benefit the Australian producers, unless decisions made at that time. It is not the Federal Government is prepared to possible to label this product out of corn­ provide adequate protection by way of som" petition with butter, because its manufactur­ sort of customs or tariff arrangement so ing process is geared to making it resemble that our oilseed producers will be able to butter. 3574 Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

I was astounded at the general approach Labor Party at this time. As a matter of of the honourable member for Isis and the fact, no political party is more divi~ed ~t way in which he criticised the Government the moment than the Labor Party m th1s on this occasion. It is a fact of life State. There was a division of opinion in that Australian margarine quotas were the Government on the earlier legislation adjusted last time because the States in and I do not run away from that fact. Australia controlled by Labor had not policed I predict that in the very near future the them. When we examined the situation in campaign against butter and anim<;l fats, other Australian States, we found that, including 82 per cent of the margarmes on although Labor Governments had ostensibly the market at present, on the ground that agreed to control by way of quotas, they cholesterol is directly involved in the harden­ had not policed them, with the result that ing of arteries in heart disease will be there was a dramatic increase in margarine proved to be a colossal mistake-and I l!se production in New South Wales. the word "mistake" because I do not thmk Mr. BLAKE: I rise to a point of order. that "hoax" is appropriate. It will be shown I am not aware that I criticised quotas. that cholesterol is only an index of harden­ I should like the honourable member to ing of arteries, and that other fatty acids refer to the statement in which I criticised released into the body during tension periods them. are the real culprit in the situation. Two Tasmanian doctors have come up with this Mr. AHERN: The honourable member is proposition recently. They said that choles­ not listening carefully. He criticised the terol was really only an index of hardening Government on the general margarine ques­ of the arteries that had already occurred. tion. There is no doubt at all that the Labor Party is vulnerable on this issue Mr. Tucker interjected. so far as the dairy industry is concerned Mr. AHERN: I do not intend to "rubbish" because States with Labor Governments have those research workers in Tasmania, as the not policed their quotas. Pressure is coming honourable member seems willing to do. from the Labor-governed States to abolish the spirit of margarine quotas altogether. Mr. Tucker: It has been said that every It seems to me, from the tone of the hon­ man has his price and I can see that some ourable member's statement tonight that, members on your side can be boughi. provided certain labelling provisions are met Mr. AHERN: The honourable member and only Australian products are used, this for Townsville West says that the two doctors product should be allowed to compete freely in Tasmania were bribed. I am not prepared with butter on the Australian market. The to accept that. I made those points because clear inference to be drawn is that the spirit I felt it was important that they be made of the quota system in Australia is not at this introductory stage. appropriate. After all, what is it there for but to restrain the over-all production of this Mr. O'DONNELL (Belyando) (5.50 p.m.): product which is dressed up to look like It is unfortunate that I have to follow the butter? If the honourable member says that honourable member for Landsborough. The it should be allowed to compete freely, he Minister said almost in his last sentence, obviously believes in the abolition of quotas, that people a~e confused over this issue. If and is adopting the historical attitude of any person is more confused than the Labor Governments in other States-it is a honourable member for Landsborough, I matter of record-that quotas should be should like to meet him. We are dealing removed altogether. That is in fact what with legislation relating to table margarine, they are still agitating for. and he has spoken about cooking margarine If that is their attitude, I am happy to imitating butter. hear it, and I think dairy farmers would Mr. AHERN: I rise to a point of order. I know quite clearly the Labor Party's attitude. did not make that point. The honourable They can have no doubt about it because, member for Belyando is totally incorrect. when this Government in 1969 tried to intro­ duce a Bill on this question and A.L.P. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr_ members were asked to stand up and be Low): Order! There is no valid point of counted, they said, "You can go to blazes. order. We don't care about the dairy farmers." Mr. O'DONNELL: I have never con­ Mr. Tucker: Some of the members of the sciously tasted margarine in my life, but I coalition Government pulled out. do not intend to allow that to influence me in what I am about to say. I shall tell the Mr. AHERN: The honourable member for Committee why margarine has not entered Townsville West makes that comment. Let my house. Margarine is an old product. I me say that, in respect of any measure am approaching 60 years of age, and I can coming before Parliament, at times we will remember that when I was a child margarine disagree. It was right and proper, seeing was forbidden in my home as a matter of that we did not have the numbers, to with­ strong Labor principle because it was pro­ draw the legislation. I could cite many duced by the exploitation of coloured labour instances of division of opinion in the overseas. I am speaking now of cooking Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3575 margarine, which has been mentioned here support the present Government of Queens­ today. That was an important Labor prin­ land and also supported the Government ciple in the days of my youth, and I grew that recently was defeated in Canberra. Their up in an environment in which margarine outlook on the Australian scene is they was not used. wish to ge,t rid of all quotas, and they do not Today, there are different types of hesitate to say so. However, if one were margarine; I think the Minister classified it to say to them, "All right, let us dispense into three types. There is table margarine with quotas, but let us also dispense with that is classified as polyunsaturated, and no licences," they would have another say. Three doubt there is table margarine that is not of them, of course, dominate the production polyunsaturated. There are then the cooking of margarine in Australia. Unilever is one, margarines, and it is these that are worrying Marrickville is another, and Provincial the dairying industry. Table margarines are Traders is the third. Between them, they not in themselves a menace to Australian are responsible for more than 70 per cent primary producers, provided their ingredients of the maJ"garine produced in Australia. They are totally Australian produced. No fair­ do not want the licences extended; they minded primary producer in Australia has want quotas reduced. That should not be ever denied the right of another Australian forgotten. primary producer to make a living. Labor Some Government members seem to think members have no objection to the production that we of the Opposition are ignorant of of table margarine from ingredients produced these facts. I remind them that the Opposi­ in Australia. tion is completely conversant with what is Let us now have a look at some of the going on. We know very well that there things that this Government did. It is not is quite a division of opinion in Australia so long ago that the Federal Liberal­ about these companies, and that Australian­ Country Party Government allowed into backed companies are not very happy about Australia thousands of tons of whale oil the activities of overseas-based companies. duty free to bolster up the cooking margarine These a're all important matteTs, and they industry. Let it not be forgotten, too, that are continually creating a situation in which the same Government allowed overseas people are being confused. vegetable oils into Australia in very large Let us talk about honesty as it affects quantities to assist the table margarine the Government. Early last year the anti­ industry. This was what worried the A.L.P. Labor Government sent overseas Australian as a political party. margarine that was not labelled as either The honourable member for Landsborough "cooking" or "table" because it said those also made the statement that the A.L.P. descriptions were spoiling the overseas could not face up to the dairy industry. margarine market. It did not think anything That is a lot of rubbish. I should like to of removing the truth from the packaging know the percentage of support that the in order to make sales overseas. That is Australian Labor Party has received, as a an indictment of that Government, and the party, from the dairy industry at any time. Opposition is aware of what it did. What difference would it make politically What does the Minister think when he to us? We have only been trying to help the comes into this Chamber and says that cook­ dairy industry. ing margarine is a false product because An A.L.P. Federal Government intro­ it imitates butter? I suppose the companies duced subsidies for the dairy industry. that put "Spreadwell" on the pack, and Labor built them up year after year, only so on, are attempting to delude people. But to have them reduced by the Menzies there is a reasonable standard of education Government. How many extra votes did in Australia today and people can read. They the A.L.P. obtain from dairy farmers for know that "margarine" does not spell "butter". that action? We would not have received At least, I hope they do; there is something one per cent more votes from them. wrong with their educati011. if they do I)Ot. Let us return to the question before the There is no need to do anything more than Committee, which has much more in it than put on the same packaging a statement one might realise from listening to the that the contents are 90 per cent animal Minister's introduction of the Bill. This is fat. in a sense a debate that cannot arouse a I also have a grievance about some of great deal of spirited opposition, because, the margarines. I think it is wmng to after all, the decision has been made and propagate the idea-this applies to all foods­ we are merely approving of it. There is a that any product is entirely a health pro­ considerable amount of spirited debate in duct. I do not think it would be false Australia, not only between the margarine to say of polyunsaturated margarine that interests and the butter interests but also it has been recommended by certain doctors among the margarine interests themselves. to certain patients, and that it has benefited This is something that people do not realise, them. That would be true. But to advertise and it is not an easy question to resolve. it and suggest that it is one of the wonders I do not know whether or not it is a of the world in the treatment of heart question of competition, but it should not disease is, I think, going over the fence. be forgotten that these very big enterprises It would be equally wrong to say the same 3576 Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill thing about butter or pure-fruit juices. Medical Research Council. I asked a question Honourable members know that a person on this point in the House not very long ago, who takes these things to exces·s can do because certain doctors had expressed the himself harm. opinion that some margarine that was not Why cannot there be an intelligent approach polyunsaturated was being described and sold to this matter? How a product that is as a polyunsaturated product. In his reply, limited by quotas can gain any advamtage the Minister for Health said that his depart­ by advertising such untruths, or virtual ment had no knowledge of this happening in untruths, quite confuses me. In my opinion, Queensland. I suspect that it could happen, there has already been sufficient argument and maybe even does happen. If the dairy relative to increasing the production of industry wishes to offer constructive criticism table margarine. of the margarine industry, it should investigate this situation. [Sitting suspended from 6 to 7.15 p.m.] A great deal of confusion has arisen Mr. O'DONNELL: I do not think anybody over the use of the lower grades of margarine would quibble about an increased margarine that contain animal fat. I am referring quota when it is remembered that the last now to manufacturing or cooking margarine. allocation of quotas was in 1954. There has This confusion is widespread among the been a considerable increase in population general public and, as well, the dairy f1;1rmers. over the intervening 19 years. We have to Cooking margarine can be purchased very concede that many people eat table margarine cheaply, but if a grading system is adopted by choice, and there has been wide recom­ for the export market and margarine of mendation by the medical profession for the below 83 points is considered to be unfit consumption of margarine rather than butter for export, why should it not also be by people suffering from heart ailments. declared unfit for local consumption? As I have said before, I am concerned about I have heard doctors affirm that poly­ the health aspect and decry its use in unsaturated foods are of considerable help salesmanship. It is quite obvious that, to to people suffering from heart ailments. On certain people, some of the best-quality the other hand, other doctors, whilst not foods are poison. It is impossible to aver actually denying the desirability of poly­ with any degree of certainty that a certain unsaturated foods, question the validity of product will be beneficial to all consumers. the argument as it relates to cholestrol I can cite two cases. I doubt whether I have no doubt that a number of a surgeon friend of mine ever ate interested persons will agitate against any butter. Indeed, he was a health crank in that increase in margarine quotas. However, respect, although I would prefer to avoid the in the light of my 35 years' experience use of the word "crank". He did everything with the Queensland Dairymen's Organisa­ possible to keep himself physically fit, but tion I have sufficient confidence in it, as when he was comparatively young he died well as in the dairying industry leaders, to very suddenly one morning while doing know that many of the furphies will be physical exercises. I have recently consulted dispelled. The establishment of the Q.D.O. a specialist and, quite frankly, while my con­ left a great deal to be desired, not in the dition was described as "rotten", I was not sense that its members were personally at told to eat margarine. This is a very con­ fault but that their experience and ability troversial matter and probably it depends were insufficient to cope with any situation largely on the doctor and, to a certain extent, that might arise. However, nowadays the the patient. organisation enjoys the utmost self-confid­ We have heard about the animosity between ence. the dairy industry and the margarine industry, The dairying and margarine industries and just before the dinner recess the honour­ can exist side by side. I believe that able member for Landsborough tried to make there "as a real need for the introduction some political capital out of it. I do not of new crops, such as safflower and sun­ think the honourable member knows that flower, that would enable farmers to diversify. when we export margarine a grading system The production of oil from sunflower and is applied. We do not export any margarine safflower seeds should be fostered, provided that is graded below 83 points, so that its production is retained under Australian margarine of that standard is obviously being control. We are not interested in the sold on the domestic market. Export importation of palm oil or coconut oil for margarine with a grading of 83 to 86 points the manufacture of table margarine. We must be labelled "Manufacturing margarine". must ensure that the product is all Aus­ Margarine with a grading from 86 to 93 points tralian. As such, it can take its rightful is allowed to go overseas without qualification place in competition with the dairy industry. or classification. Margarine with a grading above 93 points can be classified as "Choicest I realise that to the Minister, who is quality". If we had a similar grading system obviously a supporter of the dairy industry, on the home market it would be a guide to the Bill will be a little rancid. However, consumers. The term "polyunsaturated" I think he will see merit in my comments. could be used where it applied. The standard Of course, while he continues to eat butter has been set by the National Health and he will retain his rotund appearance. Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3577

Mr. WHARTON (Burnett) (7.25 p.m.): I Mr. WHARTON: Opposition members join in the debate on this important measure, have asked for it, and they will get it. which, perhaps, is not as controversial as They asked for something new on margarine. it would have been a few years ago. Being a dairy farmer, I approach the Bill with An Opposition Member interjected. mixed feelings that could perhaps be likened to those of a man who saw his mother-in­ Mr. WHARTON: There is no way in the law going over the cliff in his latest model world we can do without quotas for butter. Jaguar. I am sure that all honourable mem­ Margarine is in competition with butter, bers are concerned about the future of the therefore it affects the dairy industry. In dairy industry, but, at the same time, I 1942 or 1943, Ben Chifley introduced a realise there is merit in this legislation butter subsidy scheme. because it is designed to preserve quotas on a State basis. People in the dairy industry An Opposition Member interjected. believe in quotas. Mr. WHARTON: Never mind about Mr. Sherrington: I reckon he'll have two Gough; I do not want to talk about him. "bob" each way. I am talking about Ben Chifley. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. When Ben Chifley introduced the subsidy W. D. Hewitt): Order! scheme, it was based on total production. Mr. Sherringtnn: Well, 30c each way. In 1942-43 he gave the dairy industry $1,288,141 as a consumers' subsidy. At that The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! time dairy farmers were getting 1s. 2d. a lb. for butter and the subsidy worked out at 1d. Mr. WHARTON: l thank you for your a lb. That scheme was always lauded as a protection, Mr. Hewitt. Dairy farmers have great thing that the A.L.P. had done for enjoyed the protection conferred by quotas, dairy-farmers. When the farmer was getting and they want them to be retained. Legisla­ ls. 2d. a lb., the local price of butter was tion introduced this session shows that the 1s. 6d. a lb. Export butter realised more Government believes in orderly marketing than 1s. 6d. a lb. and Ben Chifley paid us of many of our primary products. We want ld. a lb. subsidy and put the excess into the to maintain the present set-up and, to do Treasury. so. we must be prepared to meet changing circumstances by increasing table margarine Opposition Members interjected. quotas. Mr. Sherrington: What do you think of The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. the Minister for Local Government? W. D. Hewitt): Order! Constant interjec­ tions are out of order and must cease. Mr. WHARTON: I do not think much of the honourable member because he is Mr. WHARTON: He is the man who was always making irrelevant interjections. I, supposed to have done so much for the daiq with other people in the dairy industry, am industry. greatly disturbed at the statement attributed to Senator Wriedt that the lid could be lifted Mr. K. J. Hooper: Why subsidise an off margarine quotas. We should be pressing inefficient industry? now for the permanent preservation of quotas on table margarine. Mr. WHARTON: The honourable member does not know what he is talking about. No The honourable member for Belyando industry is more efficient than the dairy spoke against oils being imported for the industry, and it is subsidised to help con­ manufacture of table margarine. When this sumers. There is no industry in which people Bill becomes law, we must introduce labelling work longer hours for such a small return. to ensure that polyunsaturated margarine is And dairy farmers produce more than other made only from Australian vegetable pro­ farmers throughout the Commonwealth. ducts such as soya bean. The problem is that Queensland is produc­ Mr. Tucker: Why don't you get onto ing huge quantities of soya bean and other something new? All this has been said oilseeds which are the ingredients of poly­ before. unsaturated margarine. It is felt that those Mr. WHARTON: I prefaced my remarks industries should be supported and given an by saying that Senator Wriedt had caused outlet on our local market mther than be a stir by saying that we should lift the forced to export their products. Whilst export lid off margarine quotas. What has the prices are quite good at the moment and A.L.P. done for the dairying industry? whilst these producers would probably be A.L.P. spokesmen have said that Labor better off exporting their products, they looked after the dairy farmers and gave should be given the opportunity to meet the them subsidies and so on. I recall that when need on the local market for polyunsaturated Ben Chifley, a great Labor Prime Minister margarine for health reasons. The legislation is aimed at achieving that resuit. Some honourable members have mentioned the Opposition Members interjected. virtues of polyunsaturated margarine. I do 3578 Margarine Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

not want to mention them at all. I merely Mr. F. P. MOORE: I do not know whether point out that research has shown that butter the honourable member has taken a point does not cause heart problems. of order on me, or whether-- An Opposition Member interjected. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. W. D. Hewitt): Order! I ask the honourable Mr. WHARTON: Plenty of doctors. I member for Mourilyan to proceed with his have not the information with me but I speech. have previously referred to Dr.--- Mr. F. P. MOORE: I shall do so, Mr. Mr. Marginson: Dr. Wharton. Hewitt. I am reliably informed that the honourable member for Burnett was a mem­ Mr. WHARTON: He is not a bad doctor. ber of the Labor Party during that period. He would cure the honourable member. Mr. WHARTON: I rise to a point of Research has proved that butter does not order. I have never been a member of the affect the heart, and in that regard it is A.L.P.-and I never will be, either. certainly better than margarine. I have shown that the Bill is necessary in order to preserve The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! quotas in Queensland and in Australia and so The honourable member for Burnett has ensure a better and more equitable sharing denied the truth of the honourable member's of the market between butter and "spread". statement. He will please withdraw it.

Mr. F. P. MOORE (Mourilyan) (7.33 p.m.): Mr. F. P. MOORE: I withdraw the state­ This is another somersault on the part of ment, but somewhere along the line-- the Country Party-dominated Government. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Mr. R. E. Moore: You don't know what There is no need to qualify the withdrawal. you're talking about. The honourable member will continue with his speech, and the Chamber will come to Mr. F. P. MOORE: The "wizard" from order. Windsor interjects once again. We all know Mr. F. P. MOORE: There has been a that the Liberal Party had a stranglehold on change of heart in the Country Party. As I the Country Party on the previous occasion have said time and time again-and will when such a Bill as this was introduced. continue to say-the coalition of the Liberal Joh. Petersen went to water; the legislation and Country Parties has failed in all other remained on the Business Paper for months, States. This is the only State where it has and then it suddenly disappeared. survived, and here it is led by the Country Party, which received 19 per cent of the votes An Opposition Member: He backed down. at the last election. The Country Party is strangled by the Liberal Party, hence the Mr. F. P. MOORE: There is no doubt thM introduction of this Bill. he backed down. In good old Australian terms, it was similar to what happens when Although I listened intently to the a dingo makes an attack and then runs away. Minister's introductory speech, I could not claim any accuracy in quoting figures. I The honourable member for Bumett said can say, however, that the tonnages of that Ben Chifley gave assistance to the dairy safflower and sunflower seed produced in industry but then obtained money from it Queensland are greater than those produced and put it into the Treasury coffers. I cannot in New South Wales, yet the New South see anything wrong with that. As long as he Wales margarine quota is greater than the did not adversely affect the dairy industry, he Queensland quota. Why cannot Queensland was doing something for the country in produce more margarine and export it? I general. cannot see why this State should not receive the benefit of the tonnage of safflower and Ben Chifley was the architect of rural sunflower seed grown in this State. construction in this country. I have pre­ Apparently the other States have again beaten viously produced the proof of that statement, Queensland to the punch. and any honourable member who wants to This does not alter the fact that I am a check can find it in the Parliamentary supporter of the dairy industry. As a result Library. When 'the honourable member for of the last redistribution of electoral Burnett was speaking, the honourable member boundaries, there is now a large dairying area for lthaca interjected, "A great, great man." in my electorate. Undoubtedly he was. I understand that the honourable member for Burnett agrees with An Opposition Member: Because of the that. gerrymander. Mr. F. P. MOORE: Yes, but "Gerrymander Mr. WHARTON: I rise to a point of J oh" did not succeed. According to all the order. I do not agree with the honourable newspaper pundits, I was going to have a member. I believe that Ben Chifley brought hard tussle on the new boundaries of about the need for rural reconstruction. Mourilyan. But what happened? My vote Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3579 increased substantially, and I had a greater I point out that if the shareholders of the absolute majority. The dairy farmers heard Malanda and Millaa Millaa factories decide more from me on the soap-box than they to close down the milk factory at Innisfail, heard from my opponents. I found that I it will mean the loss of a quota and of a was able to speak to the people and make centre of employment. That is what the sure that they would get the "goods". These Country Party wants in this State; that is people are again at a loss, and small dairy what has been occurring. Honourable mem­ farmers have been going to the wall while the bers opposite can claim that Queensland is big ones get bigger. the most decentralised State only because it was the most decentralised State before Mr. Sullivan: Would you agree that next they came to power. time you will possibly have a harder tussle getting endorsement? Let me return to the subject of cooking margarine. I remember the days when I Opposition Members interjected. went to school with dripping on my sand­ wiches. Honourable members opposite do The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! not know what hard times were like. I used When the Chamber comes to order, the to exchange my dripping sandwiches for the honourable member for Mourilyan will con­ ham and butter sandwiches of the sons of tinue with his speech. members of the Country Party who now sit Mr. F. P. MOORE: I will accept the on the Government benches. Minister's interjection. Mr. Jensen: Dripping was very nice with pepper and salt on it. I loved it, especially The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! on the twisty crust on the bread. The interjection was quite irrelevant to the matter under discussion. The honourable Mr. F. P. MOORE: That is probably what member will not deal with it. He will pro­ attracted the children of Country Party mem­ ceed with his speech or be ruled out of order. bers when I took my dripping sandwiches to school, but I do not recall whether my Mr. F. P. MOORE: I am not going to be mother put salt and pepper on the dripping. interrogated by a slob like that. After World War II, when the Chifley The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Government was in office in Canberra, butter The honourable member will withdraw that was scarce and appeals were made to the remark. dairy farmers on the Atherton Tableland to increase their production. The dairy farmers Mr. F. P. MOORE: I will withdraw the have received Government support ever remark, but I will bet $1,000 right here and since, and I repeat that honourable members now that I will get endorsement and hold opposite have never known hard times. The the seat. honourable member for Callide now has his property for sale for $500,000. Let me return to the Bill under discussion. In my electorate, and the Atherton Tableland, I reiterate that I do not think Queensland we have the Malanda and Millaa Millaa has received a fair share of the quotas when co-operative dairy associations, which are it produces the greatest quantity of grain two major butter and milk factories. They for the production of margarine. New South Wales produces a smaller quantity of grain, are both well-respected companies. The yet it receives a bigger quota. Cannot Millaa Millaa Central Tableland Co-operative Butter Association Ltd. has a milk factory at Queensland export more margarine and gain Innisfail, and a report in the "Evening a greater return for this State? Advocate" of Friday, 23 March, indicates Mr. AIKEN (Warrego) (7.44 p.m.): The that the shareholders of the two companies proposed Bill is long overdue, because Aus­ are to meet on the question of amalgama­ tralia is one of the few nations in the world tion and that a statement will be issued on maintaining restrictions on the production of 6 April. table margarine. With the demand that has existed in Queensland, and in Australia The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. generally, in the last few years, the Bill W. D. Hewitt): Order! The Chair fails to should have been introduced much earlier. see how milk supply has anything to do with a Bill relating to margarine. With the agreement between the State Ministers and the Australian Agricultural Mr. F. P. MOORE: I am relating this to Council for a 37.8 per cent increase in the fact that although Queensland grows the quotas of margarine and Queensland receiv­ larger quantity of seed used for the produc­ ing 24 per cent, I think we are fortunate tion of margarine, its quota has not increased that the Bill has come before the Committee as much as the quota in New South Wales. as early as it has. Shortages in polyunsatu­ Because of that, what is being done to rated table margarine have occurred con­ encourage the milk producers in this State? sistently. All other things being equal, when Again I say that, in common with other there is a demand for a product, it should members of the Labor Party, I am one of be met. As the Minister pointed out, there the fighters for primary industry over the is a need for provisions to ensure that the length and breadth of Queensland. various types of margarine are correctly 3580 Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill labelled. Other speakers have dealt with more and more into the traditional fields that matter. Before the next session of Par­ of butter, he must maintain or even improve liament we will make sure whether or not the quality and flavour of butter. the consumer is fully protected. In 1968 the dairy industry, being aware The oilseeds industry is well on the of a growing surplus, accepted a voluntary move in Australia, particularly in Queens­ cut-back in order to keep the industry output land. The rise in margarine quotas will at an acceptable level. Since that time the mean a larger domestic market, and this output of the nation has fallen perceptibly should be an incentive to growers to step and this year it is recorded at the very up production. And what better market low figure of 175,000 tons. This is partly can we have than our own domestic market. the result of inroads into the butter industry by margarine. Many experienced dairymen The honourable member for Landsborough consider that a national quota and pricing pointed out that there is a vast difference plan is essential to the stability of their between cooking margarine and table mar­ industry so that margarine can be held at bay. garine. No doubt, as the Minister pointed The recent Australia-wide drought has out, there have been misleading interpreta­ caused a shortage of butter. To some tions of different types of margarine. Pro­ extent the effects of this shortage were bably there have been some problems in cushioned by Britain's entry into the Com­ the labelling of margarine. Every protection mon Market and the resultant lowering of should be given to the consumer in the the demand for Australian butter overseas. labelling and marketing of this product. If tallow, cheaper fats and cheaper oils are Therefore, Australia has been able to hold used in the manufacture of margarine, that its own. If Britain had continued to import fact should be clearly indicated on the normal quantities of Australian butter, it package. The oilseed producer and the would have been very short in this country crushing industry will be in favour of the and there would have been a need for this Bill as more and more customers will in Bill before now. time change to the cheaper types of spread Past experience has shown that the Com­ such as margarine, and possibly even a mon Market, per medium of its lavish export mixture of margarine and butter. subsidies, is capable of attacking Australia's export markets outside the traditional areas. Continual research into more prolific oil­ This is being shown in both butter and seed production could lower costs in the margarine. I think that the production of industry. The Australian margarine manu­ margarine in Australia will rise considerably. facturer could eventually control the flood However, it will always be faced with the of protein-rich table products that could threat of the Common Market. saturate Australia, and possibly he could in a big way move into world markets. Lower milk production as well as reduced As the present time the Australian margarine out·puts of skim-milk powder, butter and industry has hardly any recognition on world butter oil have left the dairying industry markets. in a situation that, with the recent return to good seasons, will probably improve Of course, the stubborn dairyman will not rapidly. But, at present, the ma;,rgarine indus­ surrender his previously strong position as try has made deep inroads into the butter the provider of table fare, and I believe industry, and I believe that butter will need that his determination to fight is without to fight hard and strong to hold out doubt. Costly Press, radio and television margarine. propaganda have illustrated the advantages of butter over margarine. Today the wings Unfortunately, the dairy farmer is regarded of the dairy industry have been clipped as the poor relation among primary producers, financially by drought, the loss of the British with the result that he has been down­ market, revaluation and the mounting stocks graded by the Government. It must have of butter, particularly in the heavy-pro­ been with some mortification that the Min­ ducing countries of Europe, which under ister, who is a da:iry farmer, introduced subsidy could saturate the markets of the this Bill this afternoon. It was strange world, leaving the Australian butter industry to hear him conclude by saying, "I commend and even the Australian margarine industry in the motion." Apparently he, like his Gov­ a risky position. I point out that today in ernment, has become far removed from the the European Common Market there is thinking of the dairy farmer. Like a something like 400,000 tons of surplus butter, secret society, his Government has become 200,000 of which Russia is endeavouring to quite remote from the prima:ry producers. buy at a very low price. That is possible Apparently it has readily yielded to the under the European Common Market system demands of the oilseed producer. of subsidies. In Queensland the areas of land ca:pable Nobody is going to deny the general of returning a high level of production are efficiency of the dairy farmer and the marg­ limited. In the light of a continual increase arine producer. The dairy farmer is now in world production as well as a rise in very well aware that he must strip the local rural production, the farmers should c!eck for a life-and-death struggle with the be regarded as people of some importance. margarine producer. As margarine encroaches These remarks apply equally to dairy farmers Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3581 and oilseed producers. However, the Gov­ and packaging, I hope to see that it recog­ ernment only leaks information back into nises that we have farmers who are worked the cities about how well it is treating hard and under paid. Under the existing farmers. The truth is, of course, that an marketing mechanism, the return for farm ever-increasing number of farmers are leaving products is completely disproportionate to the land and butter production is slipping. the cost of production and reacts violently Although margarine and oilseed production on the producers. This position has remained is on the increase at present, it may not constant for a long time, but nothing has continue to rise. been done to relieve it. In the Coolmunda Dam area resuHs have If more oi!seed growers move into pro­ shown that oilseeds, such as safflower and duction, they will be in an area of quicksand. soya bean, ca•n be grown under irrigation. Future sales will depend on supply and Hnwever, water costs are exorbitant and demand, not production costs, and that must th.e farmers are loath to use irrigation, be foremost in the Government's thinking. WJth the result that the dam is used only As the honourable member for Burnett to 25 per cent of its potential. A great said, this important Bill will affect the dairy deal of public money has been spent on industry severely. Millions of dollars have this public utility, but it is being wasted. been invested in farms, butter and cheese As I have said, oilseed, paorticulady soya factories, and so on. But the returns to the bean and safflower, can be grown in the dairy industry have ben meagre despite the area quite successfully. At pres·ent, Queens­ huge investment and the declining numbers land can sell all the oilseed it can produce engaged in the industry. One of the tragedies with Japan an eager customer. If we ea~ is the unknown number of dairy cattle p~oduce mo:e margarine, no doubt Japan slaughtered. By way of adding insult to Will accept 1t. Apart from bein<> suitable injury, I wonder how much tallow from for l?row!ng oilseed crops, the Inglewood ~laughtered dairy cows has been used in the area JS smtable for the production of tobacco manufacture of margarine. I also wonder cereals and fruit crops. It is time th~ how many dairy farmers use margarine as Go.vernment took action to ensure that the a dietary aid, or because it is cheaper than potential of this area is fully realised. butter. The World Heart Foundation gave . Today, the housewife is plagued with margarine a tremendous boost with its con­ high charges and rising food costs. When troversial report that animal fats, particularly margarine is correctly labelled and the butter, could be injurious to humans with housewife realises that she is ' not being faulty hearts and cholesterol problems. "touched" when she buys it the consump­ Today, the public, being more discriminatory tion will increase and, unddubtedly quotas than ever, has been well circularised through will be lifted. It is important to r~member the news media on the merits of margarine. that mar~eting includes attractive packaging, I believe that, if the dairy industry is to pre.sentatwn, handling and storage of the survive, it must reorganise itself and artJcle. I am sure that the Minister will popularise milk, butter and cheese. If it is apply himself to these matters when he intro­ to remain in business, those products must duces legislation on presentation and be made more acceptable to customers. packaging in the next session. Unlike the honourable member for Lands­ We sho~ld try to. ensure that the producer borough, I am not trying to play politics. I gets a fair proportiOn of the amount paid do not intend to compare margarine and by the consumer, otherwise he will not butter, which is an issue that has nothing at remain . in th~ business. Today, the con­ all to do with A.L.P. policy. I note the sumer Is paymg a healthy price for any absence of the Premier tonight. He was rura! product, but the producer does not get here two years ago when he almost brought a. fair sJlare of the amount paid. A produc­ this Government to defeat over this very twn-entJtlement scheme designed to ensure controversial matter. stability in all primary industries is essential. After all, people buy margarine either Customers are important and must be fully because it is cheaper than butter or for health consid~red . and catered for. They need reasons. \Ve are not trying to make an issue educatwn m what rural industries have to out of this. It must be remembered that offer, particularly in matters of health flow­ margarine is well presented to the public and ing from the consumption of butter and is highly palatable and nutritious. It ranks margarine. with butter in both of those fields. I am not \'(hen the Minister presents legislation a critic of the dairy industry; nor do I dunng the next session of Parliament I want to be one. Rather I am an admirer hope to see that some action is to be taken of the marvellous efficiency and expertise that to aid the producers, which would be con­ have kept alive this industry despite its trary to the normal action for which the many adversities. · Goyernment is. renowned, that is pigeon­ However, I am a critic of the Government holm~ or shelvmg reports and thus denying that has leaned so heavily on the dairy a fair. go ..to the hardest-working best­ districts, which traditionally return Country producmg Citizens. When the Minister intro­ Party members of Parliament. I am concerned duces the legislation controlling presentation also about what will happen to the oilseed 3582 Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill producer. At the moment, the oilseed industry dairy farmers. I was quite happy when the is in its infancy in this State and is only honourable member for Isis rose and took established in the south-east corner. It has the appropriate point of order. vast potential but God only knows whether it will prosper under this indifferent Govern­ The honourable member for Isis con­ ment. structively portrayed the narrowing areas of difference between the primary producers It is not sufficient for the Government to producing butter and those producing the administer subsidy hand-outs and to make components of margarine. Some primary pro­ technical services available to the dairy ducers, incidentally, produce both. The industry. The industry needs more than that. sooner the honourable member for Lands­ With the introduction of this Bill, the dairy borough pulls his head out of the sand industry is in a more dangerous situation than where, ostrich style, he has it now, and ever. Determined Government action is supports truth in the presentation of his required to halt the unhealthy trends such as supposed interest in primary producers, the low returns, low morale, dangerous decrease better it will be. In order to make worth­ in production, and the departure of trained while contributions in debates dealing with and expert personnel from the industry. If primary industry, the honourable member it is to compete with the margarine industry, should face realities in a world of changing the Government must stop picking its nose primary production and consumer demand. and get busy. This Bill is a bill of demand by the public. The Committee has been told by the It asks for increased production to meet Minister that as from 1 January 1973 mar­ shortages. I do not know why this Govern­ garine quotas will be increased, and the ment, which is a self-professed supporter of Australian Agricultural Council, consisting of farmers, has not been able to give more Commonwealth and State Ministers, figured assistance to the dairy farmer. There is a in this determination. No doubt the popula­ bad communication gap between the Govern­ tion increase, changing economic conditions, ment and the farmer on what profitability and the conditions that have been experienced by a fair go and just return for capital outlay this country over a long period, and changes mean, with the farmer always receiving the in eating habits, have all tended to produce worst end of the stick. It must be remembered the belief that this legislation is necessary. that retail prices are not the net return to In the more heavily populated areas, many the producer. His proportion has been far dairy farmers are moving from the produc­ too low. tion of cream to the supply of milk. This is happening in my area. Dairy farmers, to compete with margarine, could be forced to amalgamate properties. In Naturally, it is necessary to be realistic this way top management could be employed and face up to the present situation. A and the farmers who have amalgamated could few years ago, when the Government had become shareholders and take advantage of the somewhat regrettable task of giving notice the economy of scale and syndication of of intention to introduce legislation concern­ plant and buildings. ing margarine, it more or less went to war, (Time expired.) and then took to water. Where was the honourable member for Landsborough then? Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (8.4 p.m.): He was found wanting; he hid in the shadows. This is a very important measure. I feel that If he had come out into the open and struck the Opposition's case has been effectively pre­ a blow for those whom he says he rep­ sented in a way that indicates, even to the resents, perhaps he would not now hold the most casual observer, that a considerable office of Government Whip. amount of research has been conducted by I also use this opportunity to take the members of the Opposition's primary indus­ honourable member for Burnett to task. tries . committee. On this occasion, the He mentioned matters pertaining to the sub­ Government is trying to suggest that for sidy given by a Labor administration to dairy many years the A.L.P. has fallen short in farmers 25 to 30 years ago. He was speaking respect and encouragement for the dairying the truth when he said that a Federal industry. This is one of the reasons why I Labor Government was the first Govern­ enter the debate. ment in Australia to give a subsidy to the I was quite appalled by the attempt of dairy industry. The figures he mentioned the honourable member for Landsborough were very small, but I remind him that many to distort, for cheap political capital, the measures were introduced to provide sub­ constructive speech made by the honourable sidies to the dairy industry, the last being member for Isis. After the shadow Minister in 1947, under a Federal Labor Government, for Primary Industries had supported the for a five-year term. That subsidy was intended quotas, which are virtually the based on a formula of progression. In 1952, whole crux of the legislation, and after when Mr. Chif!ey was no longer in office he had said that it was the responsibility of but whilst the agreement was still in force any Government to have regard for the wel­ and functioning under the formula that he fare of dairy farmers, the honourable mem­ proposed by legislation, £17,500,000, equival­ ber for Landsborough implied that the hon­ ent to $35,000,000, was given by way of ourable member for Isis had "dumped" the subsidy to the dairy industry of this country. Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3583

What has happened in the last 10 or 11 a margarine packet. That aroused a con­ years, since I have been in this Chamber, siderable amount of controversy within the and for years before that? The Menzies industry, and I really do not think it was Government and other conservative Govern­ the correct thing to do. ments in Canberra gave the dairying indus­ During the debate earlier today on the try a lousy $26,000,000. Incidentally, it was Bill relating to consumer affairs, many increased a few years ago following devalua­ Opposition members expressed apprehension tion, but further devaluation has since taken about the price structure in Queensland and that increase from the pockets of the dairy the question of price justification. I do farmers. not know whether it is the intention of people who have a lot of money and giant Since this session began in August last businesses to annihilate the dairy industry year, I have repeatedly asked many honour­ one day. I hope it is not annihilated, able members opposite by interjection where because if one looks along the coast of they stood in regard to the determination Queensland one finds many towns and com­ by the McMahon Government of an interim munities that were founded as a result of equalisation price of 32.75c a lb. Have we the establishment of the dairying industry. heard any complaint from the coalition In fact, probably no industry has opened up Government? No. It was fearful of the greater areas of land for greater numbers wooden horse of Troy on the back-benches, of people than has the dairying industry. ready to sabotage the Government. The If the dairy industry in this State is honourable members whom I attempted to annihilated and we reach the stage where we interrogate were frightened and sat howling, have to rely principally on table margarine, cringing and hiding on the Government as legislators we would have to look very benches. carefully at the price structure. We would I asked the honourable member for South find some justification coming from Liberal Coast, who poses as the great friend of quarters for the price of margarine to jump dairy farmers, where he stood on this matter suddenly, almost overnight, by 20c or 30c a and whether he supported the equalisation lb. That would cause anxiety in the minds price of 32.75c-incidentally, it was later of people who today have similar worries increased to 35c-when the industry asked about the price of butter. for 40c under the equalisation scheme. Only It is an indictment of ,the present adminis­ one Government member-a new member, tration that the principal reason why many Mr. Gunn, representing the electorate of people in this State purchase table margarine Somerset-had the guts to say that he sup­ is that they cannot afford to buy butter. The ported his own industry. I did not hear problem is not one of Labor's making; we that from the lips of any other honourable have been out of office for 15 years. The member or from the lips of any Govern­ problem has been caused by the occupants ment representatives. So much for that! of the Government benches. It is time they came out of their somnambulistic state and Honourable members opposite speak did something constructive. about the Queensland Dairymen's Organisa­ tion. Who supported and assisted the primary I look forward to the legislation that the producers' organisations in this State and Minister proposes to place before Parliament provided them with the money to pursue later this year. I sincerely hope it will not their course of orderly marketing? It was be like the last time, when the Government Labor Governments. In the days of Labor went to war but jumped into the water. administrations, thousands upon thousands of people were members of the Queensland Mr. HARTWIG (Cal!ide) (8.17 p.m.): I Dairymen's Organisation. Today the numbers rise to make my contribution to this debate have dwindled so much that their ranks because I spent the first 35 years of my life are very thin. So much for the criticism on a dairy farm and therefore have some from the Government benches! In a debate knowledge of the industry about which we such as this, where the intention of the are speaking. Minister is quite clear and the Opposition The honourable member for Port Curtis generally recognises what is required, unjusti­ does not have a practical knowledge of the fiable criticism comes from people who have dairy industry, where people have to work been sadly lacking in the presentation of long hours each day for seven days a week. their own case. The honourable member's complete lack of knowledge of the dairy industry was very The merits and demerits of polyunsatur­ ated table margarine, etc., have been can­ evident. vassed in this Chamber during the debate, The maximum amount of table margarine and I do not wish to take up the time of that can be presently manufactured in the Committee by again expounding the Queensland, excluding the overseas export policy of the Opposition in that direction. trade, is 4,236 tons. The Bill provides for However, I look forward to hearing in a an increased quota of 5,000-odd tons for few months' time the Minister's intention 1973, an increase of just over 1,000 tons. relative to labelling. As honourable mem­ The quota has not been amended for some bers know, many years ago in the United considerable time. Under the Bill we still Kingdom a picture of a cow appeared on I'etain the quota system. While we are 3584 Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

nssisting the consumer, we are nlso assisting It was refreshing to me to hear the many people who left the dairy industry shadow Minister commend the Government and turned to the production of vegetable on its introduction of the marginal dairy oil seeds. farms reconstruction scheme, under which The dairy industry has come through a properties that were considered to be very trying time. In my maiden speech in uneconomic were brought together and this Chamber I mentioned that portion of the subsidy to this industry had been removed finance was made available to those dairy­ by the Commonwealth Government, as a men who, because they constituted result of which the price of butter fat had uneconomic units, did not wish to remain in fallen approximately 4c a lb. A price can the industry. When the scheme was imple­ be asked for a product only if someone is mented, the cry of Labor supporters was prepared to buy it. The honourable member for Port Curtis said that butter was too that the Government's policy was, "Get big dear. He displayed a complete lack of know­ or get out." I was very pleased tonight, ledge of how hard it is to produce a pound therefore, to hear the Opposition's spokes­ of butter. man on primary industries acknowledge the Mr. HANSON: I rise to a point of order. worth of that scheme. If the Chifiey administration had been allowed Members of the Opposition as well as to remain in office, the dairy farmer would those on this side of the Chamber have have received cost of production. acknowledged the need for an increase in the table margarine quota as a result of the The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! shortage of polyunsaturated margarine. At There is no valid point of order. this stage I will not reply to the individual Mr. HARTWIG: As I say, the dairy contributions of honourable members. I industry has gone through a very trying will do so at the second-reading stage. time. Production has also suffered from the The honourable members for Belyando vagaries of the weather. As well, over the and Port Curtis-and the honourable member past few years Britain's impending entry for Warrego in the early part of his speech into the European Economic Community had -agreed that problems confronting people a dampening effect on this industry. The in primary industry had been caused by result was that some former butter producers drought and depressed prices. However, in changed over to the production of beef or the last few years the honourable member grain. By this measure the Government is for Warrego has constantly criticised the making a determined effort to assist the Premier and me, as Minister for Lands, and growers of oilseeds. However, the con­ accused the Government of maladministra­ sumers of margarine will also benefit from tion, all of which he alleged has caused an increase in quota. the problems in primary industry. Mr. Sherrington: Why? I am sure honourable members agree that we have a growing oilseed industry. While Mr. HARTWIG: How stupid can you in the past the dairy industry has been get! Of course the consumer will be pro­ opposed to increased margarine quotas, it tected by an increase in the quota. now agrees that they should be enlarged. The Bill has much to commend itself and Leaders in the dairy industry and the grain­ will result in an increase in production of growing industry got together, and spokes­ vegetable oils. The Minister is to be cam­ men for the dairy industry agreed that if mended for its introduction. But, by con­ there was a shortage of margarine it was trast, some of the speeches by members of time the quotas we,re increased. the Opposition were, to say the least, astounding. The honourable members for Belyando, Port Curtis, Warrego and Isis told us of The ACTING CHAIRMAN: I call the the important role the dairy industry had Minister. played in the development of Queensland, I am wondering what they thought of the Mr. Jensen: You didn't look this way. interjection by the honourable member for The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The Archerfield, who asked the honourable honourable member for Bundaberg is not on member for Landsborough, "Is the inefficient the list of speakers. I noticed the Minister dairy industry worth propping up?" That first, and accordingly I called him. is typical of the peculiar attitude towards people in primary industry adopted by some Hon. V. B. SULLIVAN (Condamine­ Minister for Primary Industries) (8.23 p.m.), A.L.P. members who have recently entered in reply: The shadow Minister (Mr. Blake) this Parliament. That remark made by the has indicated that this measure is quite honourable member for Archerfield-- acceptable to the Opposition. However, some of his colleagues tended to get somewhat Mr. F. P. Moore: It won't appear in off the rails. "Hansard". It was not acknowledged. Margarine Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3585

Mr. SULLIVAN: I do not care whether in the gallery that the honourable member it appears in "Hansard" or not. The honour· for Mourilyan, before he came into Parlia­ able member made the statement by way ment, was a school-teacher, and probably of interjection, and everyone in the Cham!J.e,r the parents are glad that he entered politics. heard it. Mr. F. P. MOORE: I rise to a point of Mr. Burns: I was here, and I did not order. I should have said that the Minister hear it. was a big fat lump of lard who would melt if he went out in the sun. Mr. SULLIVAN: Does the honourable member for Lytton wish to come to his The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! There defence? is no occasion for the honourable member Mr. Burns: I am only too pleased to to pass a remark like that. I ask him to defend any Labor man against the Country withdraw it. Party. Mr. F. P. MOORE: I withdraw it, and I also ask for an apology. Mr. SULLIVAN: Let me tell the Chamber what the honourable member for Lytton The ACTING CHAIRMAN: The honour­ said at a function I attended. When discussing able member was given an apology pre­ the dairy industry the honourable member's viously. comment was, "To hell with the 'dairy cockies'! They don't vote for us." They Honourable Members interjected. have a pretty good reason for not doing so. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! There Mr. Burns: That's a lie. is far too much cross-firing in the Chamber. The Minister is replying to the speeches The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The that have been made, and I ask him to honourable member for Lytton will withdraw continue. that remark. It is unparliamentary. Mr. F. P. Moore: Tell him to stop passing Mr. Burns: I withdraw it. What the snide remarks. Minister said is complely untrue. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The Tbe ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! honourable member for Mourilyan will with­ draw that remark. Otherwise I will deal Mr. BURNS: I rise to a point of order. with him. The statement attributed to me by the Minister is completely untrue. It is offensive Mr. F. P. Moore: Why? Because it is to me, and I ask for its withdrawal. unparliamentary? The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The The ACTING CHAIRMAN: It is, in my honourable member for Lytton has asked opinion. I ask the honourable member to for a withdrawal by the Minister for Primary withdraw it. Industries. Mr. F. P. Moore: Very well. Mr. SULLIVAN: Mr. Wharton, you asked Mr. SULLIVAN: As I have said, the the honourable member foT Lytton to with­ debate on the Bill was broadened, and draw his remark. honourable members dealt with the dairy The ACTING CHAIRMAN: He withdrew industry. However, most of them indicated it. that they were happy to hear me say that I expect, later in the year, to introduce Mr. BURNS: The Minister's statement is legislation dealing with the packaging, label­ offensive to me and I ask him to withdraw ling and promotion of margarine. The it. It is completely untrue. honourable member for Port Curtis said he was pleased to hear this. In private Mr. SULLIVAN: I withdraw it; but I do life he is a publican-and I understand, not change my opinion. an excellent one. Like many hoteliers, he The debate on the Bill broadened some­ serves boiled "taties" in their jackets two what into a discussion of the dairy industry. or three nights a week in winter. Most At the second-reading stage, honourable hoteliers serve butter with them, but I members will no doubt be required to stick understand that the honourable member for to its provisions. It is a very short Bill, Port Curtis uses margarine. This legislation and provides for an increase in the margarine will therefore assist him. quota. Mr. HANSON: I rise to a point of order. In his traditional style, the honourable That is a shocking accusation. I have member for Mourilyan blasted the Govern­ said in this Chamber on many occasions ment. I thank the Temporary Chairman that in neither my private life nor my busi­ (Mr. W. D. Hewitt) for asking him to with­ ness life do I use margarine under any draw a comment he made. I did not intend conditions. to rise to a point of order when he referred to me as a big fat slob. I may have Mr. SULLIVAN: The way the honour­ indicated that I was going to stand. I able member accepted the measure and merely wanted to point out to the people commended me on increasing the quota did 3586 Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill not indicate that margarine was offensive In addition, the Bill provides for the to him. However, I consider that the creation of an Industrial Estates Construc­ time is ripe. I believe that the dairy tion Fund and an Estates Maintenance Fund industry believes in this legislation and that in the Treasury, and defines the purposes of the grain industry is in favour of an increase such funds. in the margarine quota, for which the Bill Clearly, in view of the nature of the depart­ provides. ment's activities, it is highly unlikely that in Motion (Mr. Sullivan) agreed to. the foreseeable future we will become self­ supporting or self-generating so far as funds Resolution reported. for developmental purposes are concerned. Provision is contained for any shortfall in FIRST READING estate recoveries, as against repayments due Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. on loan-fund allocations and debenture Sullivan, read a first time. raisings, to be met from Consolidated Revenue. The Bill is designed to give impetus to INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT ACT the industralisation of the State, and I am AMENDMENT BILL sure that it will have the support of all honourable members. INITIATION IN COMMITTEE Mr. BROMLEY (South Brisbane) (8.39 (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. p.m.): The Minister made only a short Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) introductory speech, and, frankly, I cannot see anything against the Bill. It seems to me Hon. F. A. CAMPBELL (Aspley­ that what it proposes is a good idea. I Minister for Development and Industrial cannot see anything against a short speech on Affairs) (8.35 p.m.): I move- this occasion, either. "That a Bill be introduced to amend the Industrial Development Act 1963-1971 in I intend to speak at some length on the certain particulars." raising of money by debentures, and I intend to ask the Minister some questions on this Basically, the object of the Bill is to give subject. First, I want to know what rate the Corporation of the Minister for Industrial of interest will be paid on the debentures. Development of Queensland the power to Will anybody be allowed to subscribe for raise capital funds for the development of them? Will they be similar to Southern Crown industrial estates, and for the erection Electric Authority, Brisbane City Council and of factory buildings by the sale of debentures. Government loans? I think that the Minister The funds so raised will supplement the could have given the Committee more infor­ moneys made available by the Treasury for mation about the debentures. In effect, the this very desirable purpose. I propose to Government is announcing that it will outline briefly the various provisions of the auarantee the raising of debenture loans, and Bill, and I am sure that after honourable I think that Parliament has a right to know members have had the opportunity of perus­ a little more about the matter. ing the legislation they will support its passage. The Minister says that he has the power to approve or otherwise, although he did As I have already indicated, the purpose admit that the amount of $400,000 men­ of this legislation is to give the Corporation tioned in the Bill was approved by the of the Minister for Industrial Development Treasurer. Rightly so, because the Treasurer of Queensland power to raise capital funds has complete control of the finances of the for such purposes by the sale of debentures. State. The Treasurer has in fact approved that $400,000 be raised by debenture borrowing The Minister mentioned also that the Bill during the current financial year. Before the contained provisions for a construction fund department can embark on a debenture fund­ and a maintenance fund. I may be wrong, raising programme, however, legislative but I think that the most important pro­ approval for such action is required. vision in the amending legislation is that which will enable the Department of Indus­ It is proposed that the debentures will be trial Development, in time, to become self­ offered to institutional lenders at such interest supporting. That is very desirable. When rates as may be determined by the Governor one sees the good work that the Brisbane in Council. The corporation will be required City Council and other loan-raising auth­ to obtain the sanction of the Treasurer and orities have carried out as a result of having the approval of the Governor in Council the permission of either the State Govern­ before entering into any negotiations to ment or the Commonwealth Government borrow funds by debenture. The legislation to raise money by debenture loans, one contains appropriate safeguards for debenture realises how the provisions of the Bill will holders, and provides for the debentures to assist the department and take a load off be an authorised trustee investment. its shoulders. Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3587

However, when one looks at the work guaranteed by the Government, people will performed by the department, I do not know take them up, that is, if the rates of interest whether some of the provisions of the pro­ are attractive. posed Bill will assist greatly. The depart­ It appears to me that too much assistance ment-indirectly, the Government-should is being given to southern manufacturers. I provide not only land but also the buildings do not say that it is direct assistance but it needed. This is already being done to a is certainly indirect assistance to the detriment certain extent-! do not deny that-but both of Queensland firms. I have freight rates in before and since the present Minister took mind particularly. The rebated freight rates office I have arranged for people who wanted offered to southern manufacturers enable them to start in business to go to the department to deliver goods in North Queensland cheaper and try to arrange finance. Quite often they than they can be manufactured in that part have said to me later, "Getting the money of the State. This retards industrial develop­ guaranteed by the Government is not as ment in Queensland. Southern manufacturers good as it looks. I can do better through are given an opportunity to compete unfairly private fund-raising schemes." In my opinion, with Queensland firms and send them the cost of building is too high for ordinary bankrupt. business people to consider financing the construction themselves. The Minister and his department should have close liaison with the Postmaster­ During the break for dinner, I had a look General's Department. In areas like Towns­ through Sir David Muir's report for the year ville there is a long delay in the installation ended 30 June 1972. On page 1 he said- of telephones in business premises. Everybody "There is no doubt Queensland is des­ knows that it is almost impossible to com­ tined to play an even more dominant role mence any business anywhere without in Australia's future progress." telephone facilities. The days of sending smoke signals have gone. I hope that the I agree with that, and it is even more true Minister can do something about getting since 2 December, when the A.L.P. Govern­ telephones installed much more quickly. ment came to power in the Federal sphere, There are delays of years in some country because Queensland and the Government will areas, and even on the Gold Coast there are now receive more financial assistance. long delays. I think that the honourable member for Surfers Paradise would confirm On page 2 of the report Sir David Muir that there are delays of up to 18 months in says that the rental factory scheme is proving a very popular incentive in the attraction some areas down there. of pioneer-type industries, particularly in pro­ Mr. .Bruce Small: It is improving very vincial cities. That is quite true. As a rapidly. matter of fact it was originally A.L.P. policy to provide that type of rental scheme. That Mr. .BROMLEY: I am glad to hear that. has been adopted and improved on by the That must be because we have had a change Government. of Government in Canberra. As the Minister has said, development is Mr. Lee: You opposed it. continuing, particularly in the mining indus­ try. But, unfortunately, the major benefits Mr. .BR0J\'1LEY: We did not oppose it. from the mining boom have accrued to over­ That was our policy. I know that is a fact seas interests. Our natural resources are because I prepared it originally. It was our being exploited by foreign companies to such policy that we should provide such a rental an extent that Australia is deprived of any scheme. I think we could have improved on real benefits. But I do not intend to dwell what is proposed about long-term leases. We on this point. could have provided that some of the rent go eventually to paying off the buildings, a The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The scheme somewhat similar to that operated honourable member for South Brisbane is by the Queensland Housing Commission. In talking about mining and overseas invest­ that way the buildings would be eventually ments, which have nothing to do with the owned by the manufacturers even though they Bill. I ask him to stick to the Bill. were still on the sites of the Department of Industrial Development. Mr. BROMLEY: The Minister said that the Bill contains provisions to enable his We know that there are many areas of department to become self-supporting. He industrial land throughout the State. As I spoke of debentures, construction, mainten­ have travelled throughout the State, I have ance and development. I, too, am dealing become aware of the lack of Government with those matters. assistance for development of sites in the West and the North. Other speakers may The sooner our natural resources are have something to say about that in greater exploited to the full benefit of Australia, the detail. The lack of Government assistance better. By all means construct a steelworks has caused people to leave northern and in Queensland. I realise, of course, that the western areas. I hope that the provision for department could not embark upon a project the raising of funds by debentures will assist of that magnitude on its own. Nevertheless in this respect. If the debentures are to be I am confident that eventually this State will 3588 Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill be able to build a steelworks. Additional that with proper encouragement-and this woollen mills should be constructed by the looks like the start of it-we will be able department, too. Queensland should be made to promote industrial development and entirely self-sufficient, and manufacturers decentralisation throughout Queensland. should be encouraged to export to such an When I hear of crazy real estate deals in extent that the State can build up a real which land is fetching 10 or 20 times its real excess in its balance of trade. value, I fear that land will not be available On previous occasions I have advocated for Queensland people and Queensland the setting up of a South-east Asian com­ industries. mon market. I know that some manufac­ turers export their goods to that part of the Mr. Bruce Small: Five acres on the Gold world, but I believe that our markets there Coast brought $5,000,000. could be expanded. Mr. BROMLEY: I should say that the It is only right that legislation should be Gold Coas.t is a rather different proposition introduced to provide for the raising of from Woodridge. I would not mind having debentures and to assist not only those per­ a little bit of dirt on the Gold Coast. sons who require finance in order to expand Mr. Bruce Small: You couldn't go wrong. but also those people who will be con­ tributing to the funds. Mr. BROMLEY: That is so. If I had been The Minister has the attribute of making on the Gold Coast as long as the honourable straightforward statements. The November member and had made my money out of Sir !972 issue of "Rydges" magazine reports Hubert Opperman and bicycles, I, too, would that in June of that year, in referring to the be in the real estate business on the Gold Queensland Government, the Minister said Coast. that Comalco Limited had been given a I have here two advertisements given to series of options over the supply of power me by people from England, both headed, from the power-house for an aluminium ''Invest in Australia". One is taken from smelter. He added that Comalco had a the London "Daily Express" of 6 March stranglehold for the time being on the supply 1973 and reads, "Invest in Australia. Ten­ of power. Comalco is a foreign-owned com­ acre blocks of agricultural land. Profit from pany. What action is the Government taking early subdivision. Each block will yield 40 to assist Australian manufacturers to get home sites." It then refers to the price. It started in a similar way? Foreign companies is obvious to me that overseas interests are should not be helped to the exclusion of buying up our industrial land. Australian producers. (Time expired.) The Minister referred to the development of a $100,000,000 smelter at Gladstone. Mr. J"EE (Yeronga) (8.59 p.m.): The However, his public statement was, to some honourable member for South Brisbane gave extent, veiled by secrecy, because he failed to us a conducted Cook's Tour around Australia reveal that Comalco, C.R.A., Kaiser, Alcan, and South-East Asia, but the measure we are Pechiney, Kobe Steel, Mitsubishi and Hol­ discussing deals with industrial development land Steel-all overseas companies-would in Queensland. be involved. Each of those firms is an over­ When any project meets with success, the seas company with very little Australian A.L.P. always tries to cash in on it. I capital or interest. If the money is available remember clearly that in 1964, when in Queensland, let us use it. I do not believe industrial development in Queensland was that large profits from our industries should first mooted and it was foreshadowed that be sent overseas. I am bitterly opposed to the Government would make a move in it, and I firmly believe that we should resist establishing industrial estates in the Brisbane take-overs. area and also in provincial cities, the A.L.P. opposed the suggestion. Today they are While talking about debentures and the completely on side because the Government's Government guarantee of debenture loans, move has been a roaring success. I suggest that the Minister's department use the first of the debenture moneys to buy all Mr. BROMLEY: I rise to a point of order. the land available. In the light of what has I do not mind the honourable member having happened in the past 12 months, I believe a shot at me deliberately and directly, but that something has gone wrong wi·th real Opposition members did not oppose any estate in Queensland. Only last month, at such move. We have always had a sound public auction someone-! cannot discover policy on decentralisation and industrial the name of the purchaser-paid $80,000 for development, and our policies over the years 8 acres at Woodridge. If the department does not step in, some of these industrial estates-and we have plenty of them-will The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The be tremendously expensive to develop taking of a point of order is not an occasion properly. I have no doubt that the depart­ for making a speech. ment could make great progress in their development, as I have great respect for Sir Mr. LEE: If they did not oppose it, they David Muir. I have seen each of the certainly did a lot towards "knocking" it. industrial estates in Queensland and know Mr. P. Wood: You're a liar. Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973) Amendment Bill 3589

Mr. LEE: What am I? This is not the end of the story. An amount of $7,414,870 wRs spent on improv­ Mr. P. Wood: I said you are telling ing that hmd with contract labour, which is untruths. the best possible way to do it. In addition, Mr. I.EE: The honourable member said a total area of 3,461 acres is set aside in ! was a liar. I ask for a withdrawal. estates in provincial cities, with another 3,639 acres held in reserve. Yet the honour­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I able member for South Brisbane claims that ask the honourable member for Toowoomba this $400,000 should be used to buy more South to withdraw the remark. land because the Department of Industrial :md Commercial Development has insufficient Mr. P. WOOD: I withdraw any remark land in reserve. How ridiculous! He cer­ that is offensive to the honourable member. tainly did not read the departmental report, Mr. Sherrington: I think the honourable otherwise he would not have made that member for Y eronga is dreaming. statement. The Department of Commercial and Indus­ 1l1e ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I trial Development must be deeply worried do not need any help from the honourable by the harm that the socialist A.L.P. member for Salisbury. The honourable Government in Canberra is doing to indus­ member for Toowoomba South has withdrawn trial development in Queensland. Develop­ the remark. ment is coming to a halt as people are Mr. LEE: The A.L.P. cashes in on any­ saying, "We must stop and take stock of thing that meets with success. In reply to what is happening." They really do not an interjection from the honourable mem­ know what is going to happen with this ber for Surfers Paradise, the honourable socialist Government in Canberra. member for Sou:h Brisbane said he person­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I ally would like to cash in on industry, and should like the honourable member to con­ p~rticularly on land, on the South Coast. fine himself to the subject matter of the Bill. He is getting too far from it. Mr. BROMLEY: I rise to a point of order. Normally I ignore stupid interjections, but Mr. LEE: I mention this matter because I did not say that I would cash in. I said it is of concern to me, and to many other I would like to own a bit of dirt at the Government members, that the department Gold Coast. The honourable member's state­ will not be able to put its land to use as ment is offensive to me, and I ask him to quickly as might otherwise have been the withdraw it. case. The raising of $400,000 by debentures is The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The a good idea. I believe the day will come honourable member for South Brisbane says when the Government may have to give that the statement is offensive to him. I further consideration to the raising of this RSk the honourable member for Yeronga to finance, and possibly make it subject to Loan withdraw it. Council approval, as are funds raised, for Mr. LEE: I will withdraw it, but I defin­ instance, by the Southern Electric Authority. itely heard him say that he would like to At this stage, determining a figure that does be a land speculator on the South Coast. not bring the fund-raising within the ambit of the Loan Council is a good idea. I I congratulate the Minister, as well as support the proposal, and I congratulate the his department and its officers. This was il Minister on the introduction of the Bill. completely new development in Queensland. It was first mooted in 1964, when I entered Mt". YEWDALE (Rockhampton North) Parliament. The Government and its depart­ (9.7 p.m.): At the outset, I should like to mental officers must be proud to see such comment briefly on the shemozzle that we development throughout the State. The have just heard. The honourable member industrial areas in Brisbane are- for Yeronga said that the establishment of industrial estates has been a resounding Acacia Ridge 118 acres success. Whilst the Opposition supports this Colmslie 38 acres move, I cannot be so sure that industrial Gib son Island 60 acres estates have been a resounding success. I Hamilton 1,330 acres cannot speak on this subject with any cer­ Lytton 400 acres tainty, but l feel that there is a lot of land in industrial estates throughout the length Rock lea 146 acres and breadth of Queensland that is merely W<>.col 436 acres, growing grass. Whilst these areas have been with an extension areQ of 1,040 serviced to some extent, they are still waiting acres, for the establishment of industries. We have a total of 3,568 acres of Crown I understood the Minister to say that the industrial estate in Brisbane alone, and the aim was to raise capital funds to erect honourable member for South Brisbane is buildings, and also to create an estates saying that this money should be used to maintenance fund. I take the matter a little buy more land. further und suggest, if I am correct in my 3590 Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill assessment of the current position through­ The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I out Queensland, that the Government give ask the honourable member to deal with some thought not only to erecting buildings the principles of the Bill, which relate but also to establishing viable industries and to the raising of funds by means of Govern­ running them in competition with private ment-guaranteed debentures. enterprise. If private enterprise is not pre­ pared to move in many areas, the Govern­ Mr. YEWDALE: A further comment in ment should do so. the report to which I referred earlier was that about 20,000,000 gallons of water daily In about 1966 the Minister made a large would be available for the industrial estate. splash in the Press along the coast of There is in fact an abundance of water Queensland about the establishment of above the barrage on the Fitzroy River at industrial estates. My information is that Rockhampton, so it is true that millions industrial estates were established in Bowen, of gallons of water are available adjacent Cairns, Townsville, Mackay, Rockhampton, to the industrial estate. However, the Gladstone, Bundaberg, Maryborough, type of water industry needs is another Southport, and, last but not least, Kingaroy. question. If it needs clean, filtered water, In the matter of industrial development, I it will not be available on the Parkhurst cannot for the life of me relate Kingaroy Estate. The residents of the City of Rock­ with the other cities mentioned along the hampton have only about 10,000,000 gallons coast. I heard the story that the Premier a day for their own use, and supplies are was involved in a project to establish a restricted on many occasions during the fertiliser works at Kingaroy. The only way hot summer months. in which the fertiliser works could be estab­ lished in the area was on an industrial I agree with the honourable member for estate. Subsequently, an industrial estate was South Brisbane that the Government has established at Kingaroy to allow the Premier shown foresight in setting aside industrial to have a fertiliser works established there. estates for future development. However, In my opinion, the industrial estate at I think it should also think ahead and Kingaroy smells to high heaven-and I obtain land adjacent to industrial estates, mean that literally. provide water, kerbing and channelling and bitumen roads, and establish housing allot­ In the Rockhampton district, an area of ments not only for the workers who will be 432 acres was established as an industrial employed in the industries established on estate at Parkhurst. In 1966, or a little the estates but also for workers in general. later, the Department of Industrial Develop­ If it is good enough for the Government ment spent $117,230 on that estate. There to assist the establishment of industry, it is was talk of a couple of new industries being good enough for it to make land available established at Parkhurst. In 1970-71 a for workers' homes, particularly adjacent to further sum of about $48,700 was spent on industrial estates. this estate, and the possibility of the pro­ duction of chemicals was mentioned. In Mr. LANE (Merthyr) (9.14 p.m.): I am addition, there was a suggestion that building very pleased to enter the debate on this materials would be produced there and, Bill. Basically, the financing of industrial from memory, I think there was also some estates throughout Queensland is a Treasury reference to a roofing tile factory being matter, and the Bill will increase the per­ established. mitted borrowing by the State to the extent of $400,000 in the current financial year, I have taken the opportunity to browse and I understand also in future years, through the report of the Commonwealth within limits laid down by the Treasurer and Queensland Governments relative to and approved by the Loan Council. This is industrial development. It recalled to my to facilitate the financing of capital works, mind some of the development that has both in terms of the development of land taken place in the Rockhampton area-for and the construction of factory buildings, example, the development of Port Alma and on industrial estates throughout Queensland. the construction of a sealed road to the port. When I was engaged in industry, The Minister and his departmental officers I appreciated that the port when developed are to be congratulated on the very efficient would be viable and would cater for the and businesslike way they administer the meat industry, but I remind honourable industrial estates which have blossomed members that the all-weather road to Port throughout the State. I believe that the Alma was constructed only after a great increase in this type of development is solid deal of argument. proof of the decentralisation policies at The ratepayers of Rockhampton were com­ present being put into practical effect by the mitted to assist in that development, and Country-Liberal Government of this State. they are now paying to the tune of about The use of private enterprise to develop the $90,000 a year for it, in addition to their State flows right down the line and creates contributions through the Rockhampton City many job opportunities in provincial cities Council for the maintenance and repair of and towns. a road running from Rockhampton to Port Members of many trades and professions Alma, turning off the highway at Bajool, throughout Queensland who hitherto found the entire length of which is in the Fitzroy difficulty in obtaining local employment are 'iihire. now catered for by the factories and various Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Act 3591

projects operating on these industrial estates. needs No industry need have any fear about In the past, the sons of many country families the shortage of space on industrial estates in found it necessary to migrate to the cities Queensland. to find employment. After they had been trained at institutes of technology or at the Whereas four or five years ago, when the University of Queensland it was necessary financing of industrial development was a for many of them to remain in the capital fairly new concept, only $250,000 had been city or travel interstate or overseas to practise expended on development costs, the current their profession. Some of the larger develop­ total is approximately $10,250,000. ments now provide job opportunities for The honourable member for South Bris­ people to practise their professions nearer to bane, in his usual cranky manner, adopted an their home situation. This is just part of attitude that showed quite clearly his lack of the decentralisation plan. The programme understanding of the willingness of certain has gone ahead in leaps and bounds. Of people to invest large sums of money in our course this requires new approaches and new State. Recently I attended a dinner at which ways of financing, as are provided in the the directors and top management members Bill. of Utah, as well as of other large American I understand that at the present time there and Japanese companies, members of the are almost 10,500 acres available to industry Opposition and other Government members throughout the State, 6,000 acres of which were also present. Utah's managing director are in provincial areas. Much of what the made the following very significant com­ honourable member for Rockhampton North ment:- said displayed a complete ignorance of his "Foreign investment flows to its friends locality. In that area the Minister's depart­ but flees from its enemies." ment has made available a total of 432 acres. The cost of this development has gone as That is exactly what it is doing today. Since high as $245,000. At this time the honourable Australia fell under a socialist Federal member's home town is well catered for in Government with extremist ideas. it has terms of this type of development, so he has found that foreign investment has fled from little cause for complaint. it. The honourable member referred to the Mr. Lee interjected. acreage availability in Kingaroy. I take it that he chose the town of Kingaroy because The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! I hope it is the home town of the Premier. The the honourable member for Yeronga is area made available in Kingaroy for this prompting the honourable member for type of development is only 60 acres. Com­ Merthyr on the Bill. I would appreciate it pare that with the 432 acres in the electorate if the honourable member for Merthyr would of the honourable member for Rockhampton stick to the Bill. North. This is indicative of the attitude of the socialist Opposition and the political bias Mr. LANE: The financing of large honourable members opposite show towards industrial enterprises is very expensive, so it development. is essential that the Minister's department have authority to make the necessary An Opposition Member interjected. financial arrangements to enable it to keep pace with industrial development. Mr. LANE: Socialism and Fascism come very close together. If we take the full I now wish to refer to the situation at political circle, they rub shoulders with each Evans Deakin's shipyard at Kangaroo Point, other. They use the same heavy-handed which is probably one of the largest industrial tactics. undertakings in Queensland. Let us think a little about the type of Mr. K. J. Hooper: It's a shocking employer. political bias arising from the peculiar philo­ sophies on which the honourable member Mr. LANE: I shall refer to that assertion bases his remarks. It seems that the Opposi­ in a few moments. tion looks at industrial development on a political basis. It would extend industrial Over the past few years this company­ estates in the towns and cities of this State which, by the way, operates its shipyard on that suited it best politically, not what would Crown land-has made every endeavour to best suit the over-all development of the weather a great number of industrial storms State. It is when they have such a twisted while at the same time incurring substantial approach to these matters that they run into losses. Opposition members tend to forget problems. Their political bias immediately that the board of directors has a responsibility shows up. That is the heavy burden Opposi­ to the company's shareholders. It must tion members bear when they wage war attempt to maintain stability and to pay here. annual dividends to them. In some of the larger centres in which The company has been sabotaged in the industry might be established, the department meanest industrial way by groups of militants has already acquired land to meet future who are employed at the shipyard. Since 3592 Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973) Amendment Bill mid-1971, 260,000 man-hours have been lost. am astounded that he cannot even see that The chairman and managing director said he is speaking to a Bill that is socialistic that this was more than 10 times-- in principle and can be expanded to embrace wider socialist aims. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable member for Merthyr will please The department already provides financial stick to the Bill. guarantees, sites, and leasing arrangements. It will construct buildings for people who Mr. CHINCHEN: I rise to a point of want to lease them as well as a whole range order. The land occupied by Evans Deakin of services. I support all these activities is State land used for industrial purposes, so because I think they are worthy and because surely it is an industrial estate. they come within the category of socialist enterprises. Despite the nonsense uttered Mr. Newton interjected. by some Government members, I am happy Mr. LANE: I am pleased to see the hon­ to see that, in practice, they are prepared ourable member for Belmont go red in the to accept some socialist aims. They realise face. It is a colour that he is very com­ that we do not live in an entirely free­ fortable with. enterprise or private-enterprise sy:stem. We have a somewhat mixed economy and we We all hope that the Evans Deakin ship­ must have socialistic and private-enterprise building industry continues in operation development side by side. because about 1,500 men will be thrown on the labour market if it does not. I was interested in the Minister's comment that one aim of the Bill was that the depart­ An Honourable Member interjected. ment should become self-supporting. I have some suggestions to offer baoed on my Mr. LANE: That is probably part of experience in Toowoomba, which may assist the socialistic objective. the department to realise its aim. The Thanks to the deve-lopment of these indus­ Minister will know all about the Gourmette trial estates and the progressive policies of Industries case in Toowoomba. The depart­ the Minister's department, employment will ment spent over $60,000 on a building that be found for at least some of these men. was leased to that firm. At that stage Gourmette Industries was the only manu­ I congratulate the Minister on what he facturer in Australia of micro-ovens. I think has done so far, and I look forward to a the leasing arrangements were that the com­ further boom year in private-enterprise pany would vay an annual rental of about development in Queensland, something that n per cent based on the building price. will really rub Opposition members the wrong In any case the annual rental would have way. amounted to between $4,000 and $4,500. Mr. P. WOOD (Toowoomba South) (9.26 It is very unfmtunate that this firm olosed p.m.): I am happy to enter the debate to following a period of uncertainty. The congratulate the Minister on a furthe,r sound, Department of Industrial Development is socialistic principle-- only one of its creditors. I make it clear that the Department, the Minister and the Government Members interjected. Director bent over backwards in extending sympathy and help to this Toowoomba firm. Mr. P. WOOD: I have just listened to I have absolutely no criticism of the depart­ the honourable member for Merthyr trying ment in the matter because I believe it to make capital out of a anti-socialistic did everything possible. stance. I think it is well to point out that Based on this experience, I have some the activities of the Department of Com­ suggestions to make. The ownership and mercial and Industrial Development and control of this firm changed not long after the principles of the Bill, as I under­ it moved into its new premises, which, as stand them, are in line with good [ have said, were provided by the depart­ socialist thinking. The Government is play­ ment. At one stage a take-over bid was ing an active pa,rt in encouraging industry, made. It proved to be abortive. That is providing sites, money and guarantees, and probably just as well because I think the it is undertaking a whole range of surveys source of the bid was rather dubious. After which traditional private-enterprise men such that take-over bid, Brisbane business interests as the honourable members for Mt. Gravatt assumed control of the firm. From time to and Toowong would regard in their rational time those business interests gave assur­ moments as socialist enterprises. ances on how they would improve the I visualise the principles and provisions liquidity of the company and overcome of the Bill being considerably expanded to other problems that existed. None of provide finance not only for site de,velop­ these assurances came to very much. What ment, but also for large-scale industrial devel­ developed was a very sorry state of affairs, opment. I can see this legislation being used which many people tried to avoid. by Governments to establish Government This firm had a good product for which industries and I have no objection to that. there was proved demand. I believe that When I think of the idiotic nonsense uttered at that stage it was the only manufacturer hy the honoumble member for Merthyr in of micro-wave ovens in Australia. Perhaps trying to prove how anti-socialist he is, I there IS something to learn from Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3593 any experience like this. The technical money that it has invested. I suggest that director of that firm, who eventually became consultative services of the type that I have the manager, Mr. R. Geary, made a state­ mentioned might be a means of providing ment after the 1971 take-over bid that such supervision of invested funds. l think it there was need for greater liquidity and would be worth while for the department to more marketing and managerial know-how. investigate the possibility of writing into lease I believe this is an important point. It documents a provision requiring the use of is one on which I want to make some departmental consultative services if certain suggestions. circumstances applied. It may be possible to write into lease documents a clause under I followed the affairs of this firm with some degree of interest. From time to which the managers of the Toowoomba time employees of that firm came to me factory would have been obliged, when diffi­ for assistance in obtaining wages owed and culties arose, to obtain the good, sound in solving a few other problems. My managerial advice which they seemed to lack. opinion is that one of the problems, after I do not pretend that it would be a simple the initial period of operation, was lack of matter to wri,te such a provision into leases­ managerial and marketing skills. There were indeed, it may be difficult-and it would have not many complaints about the product to be such that it did not deter prospective itself. It is clear .that the comments of the lessees. But I must again refer to what I technical director about the lack of mana­ believe is the responsibility of the Govern­ gerial ,experience finally proved to be ment to protect its interests. In providing correct. such protection, it would also be protecting The department has a large interest in local industry and local labour in industrial this matter. It is concerned to protect establishments. Such a service might in the its own interests as it has a heavy financial future prevent failures such as the one that investment. Quite naturally, neither the occurred recently in Toowoomba. department nor the Minister wants to lose Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (9.38 p.m.): The any of that money. It is in everybody's introduction of the Bill is very appropriate, interests to ensure the health of this and and it is interesting to hear that its main other companies established on Crown indus­ purpose is to provide the legislative action trial estates, although this one might be necessary for the raising of finance by means beyond resuscitation. of debentures to carry out some of the work I should like the department to provide of the Department of Commercial and a counselling or advisory service for indus­ Industrial Development. The Minister men­ tries establishing on Crown estates, at least tioned that the Bill provides for the creation in the first instance, and it could be of an Industrial Estates Construction Fund expanded subsequently. In our efforts to and an Estates Maintenance Fund. decentralise, we may, from time to time, When dealing with such legislation, one has find local firms that have good technical to look at its background. The Department skills but lack managerial and marketing of Industrial Development was established in skills. This would seem to have been the 1963, and many members will recall some case in Toowoomba recently. The depart­ of the speeches that were made on that ment could quite rapidly develop the ability occasion. Great stress was placed on what to give good, sound advice on problems this department would mean to ,the State in relating to management and marketing. It future years. We now have to take stock already has within the department, and avail­ of the position. Many honourable members able to it, a considerable amount of expert will recall the offers that were made on that knowledge of the kind that I believe would occasion by the then Treasurer, Sir Thomas be widely sought. It should be available Hiley, who took us around a number of in the first instance to lessees of Crown projects that had been developed, be claimed, sites. I think it would be found that after by the Government. a period there would be a wide demand for such consultative services. Because of what has now happened in the shipbuilding industry, one has to raise the The Minister said that one of the objects matter of finance spent on industrial develop­ of the Bill was to make the department self­ ment, particularly the construction of supporting. In respect of the consultative buildings on indmtrial estates. We were services that I have mentioned, I believe assured that, as a result of the spending of the department, in the normal course of millions of pounds on the Evans Deakin events, should charge lessees and other people shipyard at Kangaroo Point, the requirements who seek them, just as any person consulted of the shipbuilding industry in this State in matters such as engineering or business would be met for more than 20 years. management would charge for his services. I What is the position today? In reply to do not view it as a free service to be provided a question by the honourable member for by the department, but rather one to be South Brisbane this morning, the Minister charged for. explained the present situation at this ship­ As the department is in a very real sense yard. In the light of that, when a Bill a trustee of public funds, it might also be such as this is introduced, honourable argued that the Government has a responsi­ members should take stock of why it is bility to exercise some supervision over the intended to raise money by debentures, how 3594 Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill it will be spent, and what the State will us because of what has happened in the receive in return. In my opinion, the situa­ metropolitan area as a result of freeway tion at Kangaroo Point is shocking. Although and other resumptions. Overnight, firms honourable members opposite might blame have found that their business premises were the trade unionists to a certain extent for involved. Because of the nature of their what has occurred, many other people also businesses they have sought advice from are to blame. When the land was made members of Parliament as to the possibility available to the company, we were given an of getting assistance through the Depart­ assurance that the money spent would enable ment of Industrial Development to construct the shipbuilding requirements of the State buildings on land if they could obtain it to be met for over 20 years. through that department. That sort of thing can happen anywhere in the State. In fact, the blame lies on the shoulders of the counterparts in the Federal sphere of As to an Estates Maintenance Fund, I honourable members opposite. They did wonder to what extent the Government has not endeavour to use what the Government to carry the financial load. An indication of Queensland had provided by obtaining has already been given of how much it orders for that shipyard. The Minister is costs to develop an area as an industrial well aware of the time that the yard lay estate after it has come under the control idle, awaiting orders for the building of of the Department of Industrial Development. ships in this State. It is a pity that the Minister did not explain the need for this maintenance fund As I said earlier, honourable members at greater length. The need for a con­ should take stock of the situation. As far as struction fund is understandable. Surely I am aware, once legislation is approved to goodness there must be some return providing for the raising of money by to the Government somewhere along the Government-guaranteed debentures, it will line as buildings of an industrial estate be necessary only to table an Order in are leased. Wouldn't that in some way Council indicating that the department cover maintenance costs? After all, that concerned intends to raise the money from is only good housekeeping. The Wacol such-and-such a source at an agreed rate of project \\as one of the easiest to develop. interest to carry out further development in Others in Brisbane were very costly. this State. That is the procedure followed Admittedly the provision of transport facili­ by most other Government departments, ties to the Wacol estate provided a problem, unless it has been changed without my and a railway line had to be extended into knowledge. it. Transport is always important to an Like other honourable members on this industrial estate, no matter where it is. side of the Chamber, I was interested in the The honourable member for Y eronga comments of the honourable member for named a number of projects. Considering Y eronga about land held in reserve in the the money that has been spent on the metropolitan area and over the length and southern bank of the river and remembering breadth of the State. When I visited many the industries that have been established parts of the State during the last State there it is about time the Government took election campaign, I was surprised to see stock' of industrial development in this land in certain provincial cities and towns State. It is vitally important that we on which the Department of Industrial have a very good look at this matter. Development had provided roads and other necessary facilities but on which no buildings It is to be hoped that the position will now had been erected. In my opinion, money be taken more seriously than it has been must be spent more wisely in developing up to the moment. If we are to provide industrial estates throughout Queensland. funds for the construction and maintenance Although I do not blame any officer of the of buildings on industrial estates, we must department or the Minister, members of this get some guarantee from the firms that are Assembly who have travelled round the getting the advantage of the estates-an State will know that certain industrial advantage over other firms throughout the estates are, in effect, white elephants. State-that they will not close down as the Evans Deakin shipyard is threatened to be When the Act was introduced and the closed down. For the millions of pounds Department of Industrial Development that were spent on that shipyard in the searched the State for land suitable for early 1960's we have not received any return industrial estates, the price of land would on our money, and now the shipyard is not have been as high as it is now. How­ to be closed down and its workers forced ever, I do not think the department made to find employment elsewhere. sufficient effort to obtain land adjoining the industrial estates provided by the various Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (9.50 p.m.): Like local authorities. It is a serious situation other members of the A.L.P., I, too, support when the Government is asking for approval any proposal to allow the Government to for a Bill to raise money for that specific become involved in the development of the purpose. State as well as to raise and spend money Nobody would disagree with the setting on the development of Government indus· up of an Industrial Estates Construction trial estates and buildings. Therefore, I Fund. We have all had people coming to support this measure. Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3595

My electorate contains a number of Lytton electorate, for example, caravan­ industrial estates, totalling approximately repair industries and industries associated 500 acres in area. The worst developer in with the small-boat fraternity have been my electorate has been the Government. refused permission to become established The first Government estate is the one at there. In fact, real-estate agents will not Colmslie. It is situated partially on a flood even sell land in the harbour noxious­ plain, which was built up to a height of 8 industry area to a local caravan service firm. or I 0 feet with the result that the flood­ When Queensland Druggists Ltd. intended waters were pushed out of this plain into shifting from Stanley Street, I sent repre­ Brenda Street, the Colmslie Hotel and back sentatives of the company to the department, through the Morningside area. The Depart­ who told them, "I am afraid we can't help ment of Industrial Development showed very you, because you are not a new industry." little regard for the local residents. It should be immaterial whether industries I am pleased to see the Minister for that wish to lease land on industrial estates Marine Affairs in the Chamber, because his are old or new ones. Isn't the main concern department is guilty of the same offence in the creation of employment for workers? its modernisation of the Cairncross Dock Shouldn't we be interested in industrial complex. The new slipway has been con­ development by both long-established and structed on raised ground, and Perrin Creek new industries? Or is the Government's only has been twisted around so that fioodwaters concern for the new industries. which in cannot get away. The creek is so narrow many instances are owned by overseas that a man with a broken leg could jump interests? across it, yet in times of heavy rain it is required to carry the water that drains from In relation to this measure, I am rather the Seven Hills-Morningside area. This is concerned about environmental planning. The very bad development. other day, when I asked the Minister what Further down the river, on Gibson Island, "noxious, hazardous-industry zone" meant in 60 acres have been set aside for industrial Brisbane, he told me to ask the Brisbane development. Although it has been claimed City Council. That is probably what people that the area is fully occupied, it seems to are told when they go to his department to contain a large number of vacant blocks. The discarded ash from Bulimba "A" or find out what it means, or what sort of Bulimba "B" Power House was poured into industry can be established there. If the the creek to join what was formerly the Minister will not tell a member of this Par­ island to the mainland. The result has been liament, I should like to know what his that a large section of the mouth of the departmental officers tell the public. creek is nothing more than a mudbank covering a large quantity of ash, which was I should also like to know what environ­ washed down the creek. Again the Govern­ mental planning has been devoted to the ment has shown very little concern for the proposed shift of the Evans Deakin shipyard. boating fraternity and the local residents. ln the light of all the stories that are circulat­ The Lytton Industrial Estate comprises an ing, I think it worth while to point out that area of approximately 400 acres. So far, I know how badly the management of Evans only one industry is in the process of being Deakin were performing, and how well they established there. The Government has not looked after themselves. I know that great pumped the area at all, but instead has con­ quarried rocks were taken from the area to structed roads four or five feet high in an build up certain properties. The management attractive geometrical pattern, thereby of Evans Deakin have a lot to answer for creating the nicest selection of mosquito­ but they are trying to place the blame for breeding grounds in the heart of Brisbane. what is happening on the workers. Many An employee-! do not know whether he is people will be able to measure their standard paid by the Government or the council­ of performance. is engaged in spraying all the ponds that I read in a report submitted to the Brisbane have been created. He rides round on a Airport Committee by the Department of motor-cycle, and raises the back wheel on a Harbours and Marine that an Evans Deakin block so that he can connect his spray to shipyard is to be built at the mouth of the the motor bike's engine. I think he will Brisbane River, on Fisherman Island. The have a lifetime job, as no-one is settling on final meeting of the environmental committee the estate except the mosquitoes. studying the airport has been held and com­ Mr. Hanson: It's a mosquito stud farm. mittee members were told that cranes of approximately 300 feet would need to be Mr. BURNS: The honourable member is erected for the shipbuilding industry. They quite CO!Tect. It could be, in line with the were told to allow for them when making Government's idea of allowing only new provision for aircraft flying into the area. industries to the State to be established on On the one hand we are told that the these industrial estates. It seems to me that industry is being closed down, but a secret a large number of people in Queensland report says that a shipbuilding yard is to are anxious to commence industrial opera­ be built at the mouth of the river. On a tions but are unable to obtain land. In the number of occasions I have asked the Premier 3596 Industrial Development Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill what was happening relative to the environ­ that the people in the area have a right to mental study for the airport, and he told me protest to the Minister and say, '·we don't to approach the Commonwealth Government want that foul, rotten industry here." If on the matter. they must have it, the Government should When I asked the Minister for Marine ensure that any of the buildings on the land Affairs what was being done to raise the set aside are properly controlled for pollution; level of the land and fill some of the creeks that the necessary equipment is installed and in the area near Fisherman Island, he told that we do not have to wait a couple of me that was not planned. However, the years, during which people get sick at night, report states that the Department of Harbours for someone to install the equipment to and Marine is undertaking this work. Any­ protect the environment referred to in the one who flies over the area now can see the legislation we have introduced. If that is area that is being pumped or dredged-per­ done, the people in the area will be very haps by the Harbours and Marine Depart­ pleased to have industrial development there. ment-and filled with spoil from the river. If it is not done, the Government will be This development is taking place, but I do damned for what it has not carried out in the not think it has been environmentally planned. name of development and planning. The only environmental investigations being undertaken in Queensland are the ones carried Mr. HANSON (Port Curtis) (10 p.m.): The out by the Commonwealth Government in Bill no doubt stems from the department's relation to Brisbane's airport and the other anxiety in regard to the infusion of funds carried out at Mt. Isa after George Fisher into the department to develop industrial stood over the Government. Because the Air estates, maintain them, and erect buildings on Pollution Council gave readings for sulphur them, and so promote industrial development dioxide in the town that were disastrous and in the State with the consequential provision the Mount lsa Mines management said that of job opportunities for the young people of the readings were incorrect, Mount Isa Mines Queensland. No doubt the financing of stood over the Air Pollution Council and the buildings has caused the department a con­ Government, and forced them to establish siderable amount of concern and is the a special environmental planning committee reason for the introduction of the Bill. for that town. As an A.L.P. member of long standing The Premier can put on a great act about viewing the department's performance and the State and Regional Planning and Develop­ looking back on its history, I would say that ment, Public Works Organization and it is a matter of sincere regret that this Environmental Control Act 1971, but what measure has had to be introduced tonight, about a little environmental planning for the because there is machinery, the foundations Government's own industrial estates? The of which were laid many years ago, to provide Lytton Industrial Estate is being built near for this emergency and, in a sense, the the bank of the river, right beside a big new industrial development of the State. The housing area, called the Golf Links Estate, surplus profits of the State Government at Lindum and Wynnum West. There are Insurance Office, when it was created by a 70,000 people living in the Wynnum-Manly­ Labor Government, were oriented towards Redlands area, but right beside them, in the Government and semi-government loans. path of prevailing winds, the new shipyard Only in recent years has there been a is to be established. whittling-down in this regard. The oil refineries have been established During my time in Parliament, I have seen there, and the environmental study group set the creation of the investment board through up for the airport was told that these two which the profits of this office have been oil refineries are to be enlarged in the future. directed towards the financing of many But now, a further 400 acres of noxious, private-enterprise projects throughout the hazardous industries are to be established in State. Incidentally, some of them have been an area close to a residential area. We are wild-cat projects, and I instance the H. G. not planning at all in our own industrial Palmer company and others which suffered estates. \Ve passed the State and Regional great financial loss. I repeat that it is a Planning and Development, Public Works matter of sincere regret that the department Organization and Environmental Control Act has been unable to satisfy its loan require­ 1971, which is being amended in 1973, but ments through the State Government we take no notice of it when we plan our Insurance Office and the profits that no doubt own industrial estates. accrue thereto. It was the intention of the Labor Party, on the foundation of the We should certainly go ahead with the S.G.I.O., that Government and semi-Govern­ development of these estates. We should ment loans would be supported to such a certainly raise the money and construct the degree by this office that Ministers and buildings, and also fill areas on the estates departments would not suffer the anxiety and to get rid of the mosquitoes from the Lytton turmoil which no doubt resulted in the intro­ area. But before we put a dirty, filthy duction of this Bill. polluting industry in this area, similar to the others that have been established throughout As the Opposition shadow Minister (Mr. this electorate, we should make sure that there Bromley) said, the debenture loans are to be is environmental planning. We should be sure Government guaranteed, which is the case Industrial Development Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3597 with most loans raised by semi-government or I also think that it is imperative that the Government bodies. May I acquaint those Depar

He asserted that our State development The honourable member for Belmont programme has not been the success that referred to speeches made at the time of we claim. Apparently he measures success the inception of the department. by the number of industries that are already established. On the other hand, the honour­ Mr. Marginson: That was a good point. able member for South Brisbane urged the Mr. CAMPBELL: That is so and, upon Government to purchase more land. reflection, I am sure that many of the Obviously, in this regard the Opposition is claims made then were well justified. In speaking with two voices. one decade we have progressed from nothing The honourable member for Merthyr to the tremendous activities that are taking referred to the decentralised nature of our up the time of our officers in the supervision industrial land policy, and highlighted the of industrial estates throughout Queensland. lack of politics in the location of industrial The progress has been far better than the estates. The department will locate an expectations which, in the eyes of the honour­ industrial estate anywhere to meet a demand. able member, were quite optimistic. The honourable member dwelt for a time on The honourable member for Toowoomba the problem at Kangaroo Point. In referring South claimed that our policy on industrial to the number of times the yard lay idle, e~tates is !n line with good socialist prin­ he described it as a shocking state of Ciples. Like the honourable member for affairs. He said it was all very well to Rockhampton North, he advocated the sett­ blame the unions and inferred that manage­ ing-up of Government-controlled industries. ment should share much of the blame. One The fact that the Government gives incen­ reason why those yards have had problems tives to industries to become established is in getting continuity of work is surely the a far . cry from any socialist principle. The lack of confidence engendered in potential mcentives that we do offer-which I deny customers because of the shocking record are s

Mr. CAMPBELL: The honourable member Mr. CAMPBELL: I shall come back to is incorrect. He should know that confiden­ the Lytton Estate now and advise the hon .. tial negotiations are under way and that I ourable member who has so much to say am not at liberty to reveal them. I have and has so many opinions on everything. He only said what I have said tonight because talks about the roads on the Lytton Estate. I was provoked. He does not even know they are bund walls. The honourable member for Belmont So many of his remarks were so wide of the implied that some of the estates are white truth that they are not worth further elephants. That could be fair criticism if comment. they do not develop as rapidly as some people He made a grea.t mouthful about lack of think they should, but in our experience planning. He implied that we do not plan. the development of these estates follows a Surely he knows that planning is the responsi· clearly established pattern. It is always bility of the Brisbane City Council. We work difficult to get the first one or two lessees in complete co-operation and co-ordination onto an estate. I am looking at the hon­ with the council in this regard. ourable member for Lytton when I say that. He also referred to lack of environmental Mr. Burns: You want to put some dirt contro.J. I ask him what his Government on them first. did in this regard. What did the honourable member's party do about clean water, clean Mr. CAMPBELL: There is enough land, air, and all the other environmental matters and the honourable member knows it. that have been left to this Government? Mr. Burns: You haven't built the estate. The honourable member is like an empty You have only built the roads. vessel-it makes the most noise. This Gov.. ernment leads Australia in environmental Mr. CAMPBELL: If the honourable control. member does not know, he should go and The honourable member for Port Curtis look at the estate tomorrow, but he should pontificated in his chamcteristic fashion. He know there is adequate land which has been dealt at great length with the Australian properly filled. It is kerbed and channelled. Industry Development Corporation and the Mr. Burns: I will show you some photo­ socialistic programme being developed in graphs outside the Chamber. Canberra for expanding the operations of this corporation. The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. W. D. Hewitt): Order! The honourable member Motion (Mr. Campbell) agreed to. for Lytton has made his point Resolution repo·rted. Mr. CAMPBELL: The honourable member is trying to deceive the Committee when he FIRST READING implies that it has only been done in the last six weeks. I do not believe tha,t he is Bill presented and, on motion of Mr. a worthy representative of this area if that Campbell, read a first time. is the negligent way in which he refers to his electorate. BUILDERS' REGISTRATION ACT Mr. Burns interjected. AMENDMENT BILL

Mr. CAMPBELL: He also saw fit to SECOND READING criticise the Colmslie Estate. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie~Minister Mr. Burns: Of course I did. for Works and Housing) (10.37 p.m.): I move- Mr. CAMPBELL: Why does he not "That the Bill be now read a second acknowledge the efforts of my dedicated time." officers instead of "knocking" them? There appears to be little opposition to the Mr. Bums interjected. Bill, and the extent of discussion emanating from the Opposition benc·hes is therefore The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! surprising. When the discussion is examined, I ask ·the honourable member for Lytton to however, it is seen to consist largely of cease his constant interjections. comment that is irrelevant or ill-informed and personal attacks-not necessarily on me Mr. CAMPBELL: Did he acknowledge -that contribute nothing to the business of the creation of a recreation area on the the House and do nothing but waste its Colmslie Estate? Did he acknowledge all the time. industries that have been established ·there? Much of the Opposition criticism is of Mr. Burns: I acknowledge that you are the "I told you so" nature. This is an flooding the area with what you have done. atttitude that it is easy to adopt, especially in regard to legislation such as the Builders' The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN: Order! Registration Act 1971, which by its very I ask the honourable member for the last nature is bound to be controversial. It is time to cease his constant interjections. self-evident that the ·higher the qualifications Builders' Registration Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3601 for registration are set, the better the con­ Criticism of these exemptions is, in fact, sumer will be protected. It is also clear one of the best examples of muddled thinking that if these qualifications are set too high, I have yet seen. the builders will be adversely affected. Another aspect of registration should The interests of the public and the builder receive general reference. The utmost care do not always coincide; if they did, there was taken in preparing the application forms would not have been the need for a Bui,Jders' to ensure that they could be readily followed. Registration Act in the first place. A balance They included explanatory notes and, in the therefore has to be struck between these two case of an individual, a complete transcript conflicting interests. The Government was of the relevant portions of the Act-none acutely aware of the pToblem, and took such of which was legally necessary. Yet the measures as were then avaHable to it to board received application after application solve it equitably. incompletely or incorrectly filled out, without As the honourable member for Merthyr the necessary supporting information and in has rightly pointed out- many cases without the prescribed fees, even though these were set out in the explanatory "Because of the peculiar, infnrmal note. nature of its organisation, the building trade is a paTticularly difficult one on The board used every possible endeavour which to impose legislation of any kind." to assist these applicants by writing to them, not only once but in some cases four There is not-or at least there certainly and five times. Again, this was taken well was not in Queensland at the time the beyond the call of duty. But when an original Act was drafted-any research data applicant persistently neglects or openly on which to make a decision as to qualifica­ refuses to supply the data required for the tions for registration. Reference was made consideration of his application, what recourse to other legislation, especially that of Western has the board other than to reject his applica­ Australia, where a similar Act has been tion? This, honourable members will find, operating since 1939, and experience else­ is the reason for many of the rejections to where was thus largely drawn upon. The which such pious objection has been raised. matter was certainly not overlooked, as some Opposition members have claimed. There were some other comments from individual members, but virtually all those When a balance has to be struck between who took part in the debate suggested that two conflicting interests, the answer will the amendments were timely, and necessary never appeal to those who hold extreme to make the Act workable. views in either direction, or to those who, I commend the Bill to honourable mem­ for political advantage, pretend to hold those views and advance them secure in the know­ bers. ledge that no-one in his right senses will Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (10.43 p.m.): The adopt them. This, I suggest, is the basis Minister's second-reading speech was very for the Opposition's attitude in the present interesting. I am sure that the House will case. recall that, in replying to the debate at the To revert to the main point at issue, events introductory stage, he said that he would have shown that what might suit one State answer in his second-reading speech the com­ need not necessarily suit another. It is easy ments made by honourable members. But to see in retrospect, but not so easy to all we have heard tonight is a challenge forecast. The important thing is that the thrown out by the Minister. The Opposition Government has now the results of more accepts that challenge because it believes than a year's research data of the best poss­ that the Act relating to the registration of ible kind-practical application. It has recog­ builders is a disgrace. nised that the standards for registration of The Minister said also that events have practising builders and supervisors were set shown that what suits one State does not too high. It has openly admitted this and necessarily suit another. All I can say is, has come forward with an amendment which "God help the people who are advising will rectify the situation. I find it very him!", because the building industry is uni­ difficult to see any sense or reason in adverse form over the length and breadth of Aus­ criticism of this action. tralia. I have attended conferences in every I will go further and strongly refute State in Australia relating to the building allegations that the building industry has industry and I know that is true. In spite been thrown into confusion. I have already of all the ballyhoo about "what suits one said that the board has not adhered to the State does not suit another", I say that the letter of the Act, but has used its discretion Minister has been wrongly informed. in registering practising builders with the I say to the honourable gentleman that very object of avoiding this alleged disrup­ the attacks made by members of the Opposi­ tion. This has also been the object of the tion made it unnecessary for several Govern­ exemptions referred to by various honour­ ment members to enter the debate and make able members. If and when the legislation similar attacks on the Government. They is passed, these exempted persons will be were fully aware of what has been going on able to obtain registration. In the mean­ ever since the original legislation was passed time, they can still practise their calling. in 1971. Tonight the Minister denied that 3602 Builders' Registration Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill the building industry has been thrown into litigation I have mentioned squarely on the confusion. If the Minister wants examples, shoulders of the Government. As I say, I I will give him some later on. I can do could give example after example. that when dealing with the principles of the Was the Builders' Registration Board told Bill. of the Government's intention to amend the The board has not been brought into the Act to overcome the problems that were debate so far because we wanted to find raised time and time again by honourable out first just who was responsible for the members on both sides of the Chamber? It actions that have been taken over the period was quite evident that the board was anxious since the legislation was first introduced. Our to have a builder appear before the Magis­ objections have not been biassed; they have trates Court for a decision as to whether he been sincere in the interests of people in should be registered so that his case could be the building industry who have made com­ used as a test case. plaints to us since the original Bill was A particular builder has written as introduced. follows:- Having had time to study the Bill, the "During the last few months I have had Opposition feels that it goes a long way correspondence and telephone conversations towards overcoming a number of the with reference to my application, and anomalies. have complied with the requirements of the Mr. Hinze: They what are you crying Registrar. about? "On 28 December 1972 I was advised that my application was unsuccessful. I Mr. NEWTON: The honourable member then asked for an appeal, which was to will hear later on. be discussed in an interview with the We do not hesitate to say that our efforts Board on 22 January 1973. However, on to have the Act amended to provide registra­ 19 January 1973 I was informed by tele­ tion for all persons desiring to be registered phone by the Registrar that my appointment as builders have almost been successful. At was cancelled and to take necessary action the Committee stage we will be moving through my solicitor. Obviously I still feel amendments in an endeavour to pursue that in my opinion that my application should point further. have been accepted on my original applica­ tion. The Bill opens up again the whole subject "On 13 March 1973 I was informed by of the registration of builders. We intend to the Registrar, Mr. A. Nicholson, by tele­ take advantage of that fact before the Bill phone that they would not attend my is finally passed through the Committee stage, appeal in the District Court that day but so that there will be no doubt in the mind would give me exemption because of the of anybody as to what it means. At least on 'amending legislation clarified qualifications this occasion we have been given a few more for builders' registration' due in Parliament days to study the Bill and realise its conse­ in 1973. My exemption would be gazetted quences than we were when the original on 17 March 1973 to 17 September 1973 legislation was before the Chamber. pursuant to section 33 (2) of the Act. "Before my telephone conversation with Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The you on 13 March 1973 I did go to the honourable member for Lytton should be Magistrates Court and my solicitor asked either inside or outside the Chamber. for an adjournment until 17 July 1973, Mr. NEWTON: The Minister should be hoping by then the result of the new commended for taking these and other steps legislation would be in my favour and the to amend the principal Act. The amending appeal would not be necessary. legislation reviews the whole position cover­ "I am sure you will appreciate that I ing the registration of builders. The Minister cannot fully understand these changes the indicated tonight that the board desired to do Board of Registration make, which has many things to help builders, but we want caused my much wasted time and expense. to be sure of that. I do not want to delay the Had I been granted this exemption earlier House tonight, but I have file after file of it may not have been necessary to have gone cases that have been brought to my attention. to the expense of making an appeal through Whether the Minister likes it or not, builders the Magistrates Court, which I sincerely in this State have already become involved in hope I do not have to continue with." litigation because of the actions of the board That is only one example. On behalf of the and the Government. builders in Queensland, I ask: Who will com­ Mr. Hinze: You approved of the earlier pensate those builders who have already been Bill. forced to take action in order to protect their livelihood? All the Government's ballyhoo Mr. NEWTON: We never approved of it. and pious talk about registration stinks to Right from the start we endeavoured to open high heaven. the door for registration to every builder in The Opposition has closely examined the the State. That was our policy then, and it is Bill and demands certain assurances from still our policy. We place the blame for the the Minister tonight. As we see the Bill, it Builders' Registration Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3603

covers builders who are already registered. The Minister indicated that the prov1s10n The Minister has indicated that it also gives relative to fees and charges being refunded those builders who are exempted the right is clearly set out in the Bill. I do not to reapply for registration within six months intend to delay the House, but I could of the Bill receiving royal assent. I hope that cite a number of examples of fees paid, when the Bill becomes law all builders, and the amount of money refunded. Now particularly those who have been exempted, that the provision is spelt out in the amend­ will be informed of their right to reapply for ing legislation, we will be watching closely registration. to see what happens with moneys that have been paid. Mr. Hinze: What would you know about building? We cannot argue about the provisions covering quantity surveyors or members of Mr. NEWTON: Just as much as you know the Australian Institute of Building. We about dairying. take it that these people have been members It is evident that applicants who have of corporate bodies for at least four years, been rejected by the board are given con­ and the purpose in reducing the period from sideration in this legislation. If we read three years to two years is to achieve the provision correctly, it seems that appli­ uniformity. However, we should like the cants who have been rejected have now a provision explained. It provides quite clearly right to reapply for registration. that tradesmen must serve an apprenticeship of four years, with two years' practical Mr. Miller: What are you concerned about? experience in their calling. We have no Mr. NEWTON: I will tell the honourable objection to these people, as we know their member as I proceed. I am concerned about qualifications and the important role they the legislation as a whole. are playing in the building industry. But we must ensure that what is being done Mr. Miller interjected. will achieve uniformity. Mr. NEWTON: If someone allays my I shall now deal with a matter that fears at this stage, I will be satisfied. If obviously the board or the Government has I do not get satisfaction, I have quite a come across. It is interesting to note because deal of time during the Committee stage it could have resulted in a dangerous situa­ to raise certain matters. On behalf of tion arising. I refer to a change of director the Opposition, I indicate that when this or supervisor in a firm or company where legislation is passed we hope it will give that person has obtained registration on everyone operating as a builder the right behalf of the company or firm, and what to registration. must be done in regard to the registration of that company or firm. It is pleasing to I am pleased to note that the difficulties see that this has been covered in the BilL relative to "supervisor" in the definitions The Act spells out what applies in regard are being overcome by the Bill. This to firms and companies. The person has to definition caused a lot of trouble in admin­ be nominated by the particular company or istering the Act. On many occasions, fore­ firm, and if the directors or partners cannot men or leading hands, who would be in get registration the firm has the right to a category similar to that of supervisor, had nominate a person who later on can get difficulty in getting registration. The position registration from the board. There is no of a carpenter or a bricklayer seeking regis­ doubt it has happened and will happen again tration is clearly defined in the Bill. This that a person in this category will relinquish clarification must surely assist the Builders' his directorship or membership of a partner­ Registration Board when dealing with ship, and such firms or companies could applications. find themselves in difficulty if they could not Quite a number of applications were quickly find someone else to nominate to rejected under the provision relative to fill the position. $25,000 worth of work being undertaken in any one year over five years. It is good that a period has been stipulated in which the board must be notified of such Mr. Miller: Why didn't you move an changes, and who is to fill the position. The appropriate amendment previously? board should now be able to finalise applica­ tions much sooner, because it will have Mr. NEWTON: As I indicated earlier, power to demand that an applicant furnish the previous legislation was introduced one further information within a prescribed night and we had the second-reading stage period. The Minister said that this was the next day. On that occasion we were previously one of the reasons for the delay lucky to be able to move whatever amend­ in deciding some of the applications sub­ ments we did. Opposition members told mitted to the board. It is good that this the Government at the second-reading stage provision has been written into the legisla­ that this provision would be the stumbling tion. If the board is not happy with an block for many builders in Queensland. The application or the qualifications submitted, deletion of the provision that includes the it has the right to ask the applicant to figure of $25,000 will no doubt assist the furnish the necessary information within a board in dealing with future applications. prescribed period. This is to the applicant's 3604 Builders' Registration Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill advantage, if he is sincere and wants regis­ stumps and foundations, constructing the tration. He can save himself the payment walls, and, what is one of the most difficult of unnecessary fees if he co-operates with parts of the job, breaking through the main the board. roof of the house. The Opposition cannot agree to the Mr. Miller: For $500? principle that the person doing work below the value of $500 does not have to be Mr. NEWTON: On a labour-only basis, registered. This would allow an unscrupulous yes. The honourable member should not con­ builder to do shoddy work and get away fuse labour-only prices with prices per square with it. He could cheat pensioners and for complete construction of a building. They persons on low incomes who have saved are two entirely different things. One deals hundreds of dollars to have their homes with a contract for the supply of labour repaired. The honourable member for only, with the builders supplying the material. Ithaca has been very vocal on this subject. I shall give an example of how a person With his experience as a painting contractor, could be caught under this section. he would know something of what goes on in the building industry. But I cannot I could go on and deal with what the understand him when he says that if we do honourable member for Ithaca said at the away with this principle, we take away from introductory stage relative to giving prote·ction certain people the right to earn a livelihood. to the general public. Let me take the number of jobs that can be done up to Mr. Miller interjected. $500. For example, remodelling of a bath­ Mr. NEWTON: During the introduction room could include removal of wall boards of the Bill, the honourable member said or ceilings and walls and replacing them that the Opposition was taking away the with other wall boards, providing built-in right of certain people to operate as con­ cupboards and tiling round the bathtub or the tractors. That is not the position at all. washbasin or whatever it may be. On The honourable member knows quite well many occ~sions work of this type has been how many jobs could be done for $500 on done and it has then been necessary to the principle, "You supply the materials and inspe.ct the shoddy job. I will supply the labour." This is where you The same position arises when remodelling make a big mistake. Further, you go on- of the kitchen is carried out, as it is Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The virtually every day of the week because Chair is not "going on". Will the honourable people wish to have modern kitchens. The member please address the Chair. whole kitchen is remodelled, including ceilings and walls. Of course, the most important Mr. NEWTON: Yes, Mr. Acting Speaker. part is the built-in units, wall cupboards, and so on, which make the kitchen very Let me indicate further how out of touch attractive. the honourable member for Ithaca is with the building industry. In dealing with the In addition, there is the replacement of question of work done on a labour-only basis, front and back landings and steps. I could one deals with a price per square for labour, go on and on-the extension of eaves and and the materials are provided by the princi­ the soffiting of them; the replacement of pal contractor. I hope that Government windows, including j.ambs and stops; the members do not confuse the price per replacement of roof rafters, joists and battens square for labour only with the price per and struts; the enclosing of verandas and square for construction of a building overall. porches, including the ceiling and lining of The prices for labour only per square today the walls, plus the replacement of louvres, fall into very many categories. The external windows, or sliding windows, as the case walls of a house may be fibro, chamfer may be. boards, weather boards or brick veneer, but Again, there is the construction of a the price per square for internal lining throughout the house depends on the type garage on an ordinary allotment. A building of lining used. Work of this nature is being 20 feet by 10 feet, with no ceiling or done for as little as $80 a square. It can go lining for the interior walls, and with a higher, but it usually ranges between $80 fiat roof, could be built for under $500. and $120 a square. When ordinary linings Then there is the replacement of fences. are used only in the kitchen and bathroom Again many forms could be used involving and plaster is used for the ceilings and walls costs below the $500 mentioned in the Bill. of the rest of the house, the price for labour The bui.lding of concrete paths and driveways only decreases per square. In such cases, and concreting under a house and enclosing prices can be as low as $70 a square. it is something that is well known to all In the case of a registered builder doing honourable members. labour-only work, we say that the amount I could go on and give example after of $500 is still far too high to give the example of the work that can be done if required protection. For that sum, an exten­ it is provided that anybody doing work sion of three or four squares could be added under $500 does not have to be registered. to a house on a labour-only basis. Such additions could involve setting out, putting in Mr. Hodges: What is your point? Builders' Registration Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3605

Mr. NEWTON: My point is that the his own business. We feel that the Bill figure should be eliminated altogether, and returns to John Citizen the right to submit I shall be dealing with this at the Committee his own plans. I have already indicated that stage. Honourable members on this side of that provision has been one of the worst the House use the same argument now as obstacles to overcome. they used when the original Bill was intro­ The fact ,that the board is to have power duced in 1971. We think the figure that over builders exempted under the principal should be used is $100. If it had not Act indicates once again that the Minister been used on that occasion, we would have has had a good look at the weaknesses in that been moving now for the elimination of legislation. Builders in thM category could the $500. be protected under the principal Act. What I pointed out on that occasion-! do is the Minister's intention here? It is easy so again now for the benefit of honourable to understand why, until now, so many members opposite-that the reduction of builders have had to be exempted and so $500 to $100 does not take work away from many names have appeared in the Govern­ anybody. It allows pensioners, tradesmen ment Gazette in accordance with the require­ or builders to carry out the work with ments of the principal Act. It is to be hoped material provided by the person or persons that once the amending legislation is passed for whom the work is being performed. we will not have such a long list of exempted This custom and practice has been followed builders. in the building industry since its inception, An important point is that even though a and the Act will not make any difference builder is exempted under the Act, he is to it. not exempted from carrying out the provisions Mr. Miller: Are you prepared to take of the Act. The Bill provides that if an $100 and do a $500 job for labour only? exempted builder carries out faulty con­ struction work he can be dealt with in the Mr. NEWTON: No. I am surprised at same way as a registered builder. That is a such an interjection from an honourable step in the right direction. member who has worked in the building There is another point we are not very trade. happy about. Again the Minister will say Mr. Miller: That is the impression I that the matter has been previously argued gained. in the Chamber. I am referring now to the service of notices on registered builders. We Mr. NEWTON: The honourable member are concerned mainly at the manner in which always gets the wrong impression. The other notices will be served. The Bill provides that night he said that if the amount was made a notice may be left by leaving it with "some much lower people would not be able to other person apparently an inmate thereof or get any work. I deny that tonight, just as employee thereat". That provision seems to be I denied it the other night. The custom and a dangerous one. Why should such a person practice that applies in the building industry be required to accept service of a notice does not take away that right. that should be served on a registered builder? The Bill provides for the repeal of section The Bill also provides that a notice may 32 of the principal Ac,t. That provision was be served by leaving it with a person who debated very strongly when the original Bill is apparently of or over the age of 16 years. was before the Chamber, and it has caused This provision, too, is an unsatisfactory one, a lot of harm since the Act came into force. because I suggest that many lads of 16 years It indicated quite clearly that before any of age are employed in the building industry local authority could approve plans for build­ as apprentices. I would go so far as to ing work above the value of $4,000, a regis­ suggest that in provincial cities and towns tration number had to be submitted with the certain builders would only employ appren­ plans. Let me make that point clear. A tices. We suggest it would be better to registration number was required, not ~o get provide that notices may be left with a a permit to build but in order to submit a person who is apparently of or over the plan. age of 18 years. We have no objection to what the Minister The Opposition's comments have been is endeavouring to do. Possibly it could be and will be designed to ensure that all the said that it will not assist the board as much problems that have arisen under the Act as it was assisted by the provisions of the will be overcome. It is a pity that the principal Act. But we say that John Citizen Act has had the effect that has been obvious should have the right to lodge his own plans since its proclamation. It is shocking that and specifications with a local authority if he builders have been forced to become involved so desires. Previously, if a person wanted in litigation, to seek legal assistance, and plans approved by the local authodty he even to appear before a magistrate to seek could have them drawn up by anybody he adjournments. In view of the many com­ liked, including a tradesman. Once the plans plaints that have been made, the questions and specifications were drawn up, he could that have been asked and the speeches that submit them to the local authority and obtain have been made in this Chamber, someone approval to go ahead with the job. Who­ somewhere along the line should have become ever he got to construct the building was aware of the serious situation that had 3606 Builders' Registration Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill developed. It is a pity that it was not restored to people in the building industry, drawn to the attention of Parliament earlier. particularly those who were refused registra­ I make no bones about the fact that the tion under the Act. Opposition has circulated throughout the The amendment to section 4 of the Act State copies of speeches made at the intro­ to include labour-only gangs is worth while. ductory stage. The result is that we are On a number of occasions members of the receiving correspondence from many persons Opposition have drawn the Minister's atten­ who claim that the provisions relating to tion to the necessity for such a provision. litigation should be further examined. We have repeatedly pointed out that registra­ The Opposition has interpreted the Bill tion should be available to all people involved as providing that all builders will be given in the building industry. The inclusion of the opportunity of registering. It is also labour-only gangs will broaden the scope of our interpretation that they will have six the legislation so that more people in the months after the Bill receives royal assent building industry will be subject to some in which to apply for registration. form of control. While personally I could At the Committee stage we will be moving have reservations about labour-only gangs, certain amendments in an endeavour to they are now a part of the building industry broaden the field even further than at pre­ and, as such, should be registered under the sent so that all builders will have the right Act. Their inclusion will give greater pro­ to be registered and so that the Act will tection to the person or persons having work achieve what it is intended to achieve, as carried out on a labour-only basis. set out in the yellow document that was As the Act stands, the owner of a dwelling printed. This is what it says- supplying material for work on a labour-only "The purpose of the Act is to regulate basis ran the risk of having the work carried the building industry so as to proctect the out by a fly-by-night operator. In such cir­ public against any inefficient or unscrupu­ cumstances he has little hope of redress. Now lous practices within the industry. that labour-only gangs are to be registered, "The attainment of this objective will the public will receive greater protection, and assist in raising the standard of perform­ we know that the intention of the Act was ances and practice within the industry." to give the public protection. The extension of registration to labour-only gangs will also 'Mr. N. F. JONES (Everton) (11.26 p.m.): assist the small builder before he becomes I was quite surprised when the Minister said a full-time contractor, that is, a builder who that the criticisms levelled at the Act were supplies the material and labour required to unfounded and that there had been no chaos carry ont a job according to the plans and within the building industry. By their very specifications. A young man starting out in number, the amendments proposed under the business in his own right will be able to Bill condemn him. If the Minister's statement work as a registered builder even if he has were true, we would not be here debating the not the necessary finance to purchase material great number of amendments put forward by to carry out a job. This provision will give the Minister to improve the original legisla­ him an opportunity to establish himself and tion. In my opinion they go a long way his reputation as a registered builder without towards ensuring that, when carried, the the financial burden of buying material to building industry will not be faced with some undertake jobs that would qualify him for of the problems it met after the original legis­ registration in the industry. lation was passed, which was prior to my entering Parliament. I should like the Minister to tell me whether labour-only gangs employed by large Tonight, I wish to deal with one or two contractors will have to be registered if principles in the Bill and support the sub­ they act as labour-only gangs on large jobs. missions made by the Opposition's shadow I should like some clarification on this Minister (Mr. Newton). As the Opposition's matter. If this is to be the case, it will spokesman on housing, he covered the give added protection to people who are measure fairly well, so I will be brief in my purchasing houses from large contractors comments. who employ labour-only gangs. I think it was the honourable member for The extension of the registration to cover Merthyr who said at the introductory stage a larger area of the building industry must that the Builders' Registration Act had passed be of greater advantage to the public than through a number of trials and errors. In my the provision in the existing Act. The opinion, it was a long and serious trial. I consumer is at a disadvantage under the only hope that the amendments will rectify Act, but will be in a better position under most of the errors. the amended legislation. The advantage ,to After examining the amendments, Opposi­ be gained by the person having the job tion members were pleased that the Minister carried out is that he will have some redress had seen fit to take note of a number of against the person doing the work. proposals put forward by them. Members In addition, an area is created in which of the building industry must also be pleased younger or small builders can tender at to note that the Act provisions, as amended a more competitive price. It does not by this Bill, will be in more workable form. leave the owner in the disadvantageous A certain amount of confidence will thus be position of having only a large builder Builders' Registration Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3607 tendering for his job who can dictate terms big enough to recognise, after 12 months of and price, and, possibly because of the large operation of the legislation, that the stan~ard amount of work he has on hand, the time set was too high. We have openly admttted of commencing and finishing the small job. that, and the Bill has been brought down If a long period elapses between the calling to rectify the situation. I find it difficult to of tenders and the commencement of a job, see any sense or reason in the adverse the consumer has to meet the increased cost criticism of this action, especially by the of the material used. Under the proposal honourable member for Belmont. he will now be able to get a small builder to do the work. I was very lenient in my second-reading speech. I did not want to be in any way I shall refer briefly to the Minister's vicious or vindictive. I can say, however, proposal to reduce the $4,000 limit to $500. that 90 per cent of the Bill was provided I know that the honourable member for by the building industry itself in Queens­ Belmont mentioned this, but I ask the Min­ land. It was the industry that virtually ister why he has set $500 as the figure. produced the Bill, yet the honourable member Reference to page 2741 in volume 258 of for Belmont condemns the Government and "Hansard" will show that on 9 December everybody else associated with it. I repeat last year the Opposition moved that the that it was the building industry itself that amount should be lowered and that the formulated the Bill in the first place. What Minister said he could not agree because, if was said by the honourable member this he did, there would be no chance of evening was mischievous, preposterous and builders reaching the $25,000 ceiling. Now utterly fallacious. The Labor Party was in that the ceiling is to be removed, I can office in this State for 24 years, yet it made see no good reason for not reducing the no endeavour to introduce legislation to limit to $100. This would give greater assist builders. A file extending over 30 coverage to those involved in the building years shows that the Labor Party consistently industry. refused to give the building industry the "The Minister may issue directions to system of registration that it desired. the Board on matters of policy and the exercise of its powers and functions and As the honourable members for Belmont the Board shall observe and carry out the and Everton have indicated that two or directions so given." three points that were raised will be dis­ cussed at the Committee stage, I have Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! I trust nothing further to add at this stage. that the honourable member is not quoting from the Bill because that is not permitted Motion (Mr. Hodges) agreed to. at this stage. Mr. N. F. JONES: I am sorry, Mr. Acting CoMMITTEE Speaker. I started to quote the clause before (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. I realised that that was not the proper Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) procedure. Clauses 1 and 2, as read, agreed to. The Bill provides that the Minister takes Clause 3-Arnendment of s.4; Definitions- full control. I am pleased that this is so because, as an elected representative, Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.39 p.m.): I I believe that the Minister should have full take the opportunity to speak on this clause control under the Act. It should not be because it is the one that broadens the left to a phantom public servant. The legislation to cover labour-only builders. Minister should take control under the Act Here again the Opposition appreciates what and accept his responsibility. The people is being done, as the inclusion of labour­ can then judge whether or not he administers only contractors should help to provide the its provisions in a proper and fair manner. complete coverage that we seek in the I only hope that other Ministers take note building industry. All builders who have the of the way in which the people of Brisbane required qualifications, including labour­ showed, by their votes last Saturday, that they only contractors, will now have the right to were not too happy with the way in which obtain registration. the Minister for Local Government has handled-or mishandled-his responsibility. The Opposition makes it clear that it does not intend to oppose the clause, which allows Mr. ACTING SPEAKER: Order! The labour-only contractors to be registered as honourable member is departing from the builders. I have already given examples, and principles of the Bill. again I say to the Government that a large percentage of building work in Queensland Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister is now being done by labour-only contractors. for Works and Housing) (11.36 p.m.), in It is interesting to note also that quite a reply: Again I am rather amazed at the large amount is being done on that basis attitude adopted by the Opposition. The both for the Government and for private honourable member for Belmont opened by enterprise. Particularly in the construction viciously attacking me and the Government, of houses, the Minister has let many contracts and then went on to agree with every to big builders over the length and breadth provision in the Bill. The Government was of the State under which the main contractor 3608 Builders' Registration Act [3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill

lets the work out to subcontractors. Hon­ that this has had. In the light of the $500 ourable members on this side of the Chamber and the prices per square that I now have agree with the clause, which they think will before me, quite a substantial addition to strengthen the present position. any house or building in this State could be I was rather surprised to hear the Minister involved. say in his reply on the second reading that It could involve, for example, quite an whatever was in the Act before the Bill amount of repair work being done on a was introduced was the responsibility of the labour-only basis to the extern:al parts of building industry. He said, in effect, that he a building, including the roof structure. Up accepted in toto recommendations from the to that amount, it could include the com­ industry. plete remodelling of rooms in a house. At the introductory stage I referred mainly Mr. Hodges interjected. to bathrooms and kitchens in a house. On Mr. NEWTON: The Minister had a "shot" the labour-only basis, the material is supplied at the Opposition in his reply. He did say by the owner and the builder supplies the that, as he will see when he reads his labour. "Hansard" proof tomorrow. I do not think Mr. Hodges: I want to know what clause he meant to say it, because when a Bill is you are speaking to. being introduced the Minister, his officers and everybody concerned with the department Mr. NEWTON: Clause 9. endeavour to get as much information as possible to ensure that the provisions included Mr. Hodges: About vacancies on the board? in it give effect to their intentions. There was no excuse in this instance, because there Mr. NEWTON: I am not talking about were Acts operating in other States to which vacancies on the board. I am talking about reference could be made. the reduction of the $4,000 to $500. I have not even mentioned the board. If I had, Mr. Hodges: Which clause are you I am sure that I would have been pulled referring to now? up. I am talking about clause 9, to which I will be moving the Opposition's first Mr. NEWTON: It does not matter which amendment, and which deals with an amend­ clause I am referring to. I am on my feet, ment of section 31 of the principal Act. and I am taking this opportunity, whether the Minister likes it or not, to reply to what The provision has strengthened the argu­ he said when replying to the second-reading ment we used when the original legislation debate. was before the Chamber. Accordingly, I move the following amendment- The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The "On page 5, line 27, omit the word­ honourable member for Belmont should be 'five' dealing with clause 3. I ask him to return to that clause. and insert in lieu thereof the word- 'one'." Mr. NEWTON: Very well, Mr. Wharton. As I said before, we believe that the Bill The word "supervisor" is to be deleted. should give complete and full coverage in The Opposition is pleased to see that, as it order to protect people from those in the caused some confusion to the board. The building industry who operate in an unscrupu­ way is now clear for foremen and leading­ lous way and do shoddy work. By this hands to be registered, as provided in other amendment, at least we will be affording clauses. The fact is that the words "including the protection that the legislation sets out to the provision of labour only" are now to be provide. included in the definitions. Clause 3, as read, agreed to. Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie--'Minister for Works and Housing) (11.48 p.m.): I do Clauses 4 to 8, both inclusive, as read, not intend to accept the amendment. agreed to. Clause 9-Amendment of s. 31; Offences Mr. Newton: I didn't really expect you by persons not registered as builders- would. Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.44 p.m.): I Mr. HODGES: It is not that I have not suppose this really is a question of the accepted amendments in the past. I accepted Opposition being consistent with the action amendments when the previous Bill was it took when the principal Act was intro­ before the Committee. The deletion would duced. Although we appreciate that the create the necessity for excessive administra­ $4,000 has now been reduced to $500, we tive and inspectorial control which could do not think it goes far enough. It is not my not possibly be justified by results. That is intention to repeat the argument that I used recognised not only because of our own on that occasion or, indeed, to repeat the observations but also because it has been argument that I put forward earlier in this admitted by the New South Wales authorities debate. However, the inclusion of labour­ that they are finding themselves in tre­ only contracts has made a difference, and I mendous difficulties because of something shall give a number of examples of the effect similar to what is proposed. Builders' Registration Act (3 APRIL 1973] Amendment Bill 3609

Mr. MILLER (Ithaca) (11.49 p.m.): I was to enable a person who does not know any­ happy to hear the Minister say that he thing about building to carry out certain was not prepared to accept the amendment. work. The honourable member has clearly After listening to the honourable member for demonstrated his insincerity. He did not Belmont, it is quite obvious that he is the want the Act in the first place, so I do not spokesman for the union and is endeavouring know why he has not urged its repeal. He to use the Bill to control non-union labour. has had 12 months in which to arrive at It was quite obvious also from the stand a means of overcoming this particular prob· he took at the time of the original legisla­ !em. tion that he was opposed even to unemployed If the clauses that apply to registered carpenters having the opportunity to work builders also applied to people who do work on a job up to the value of $4,000 only below the value of $500---so that, for because he wanted to control non-union example, they could be called before the labour. Tonight he is endeavouring to remove board and made to rectify faults-it would the limit of $500. If his amendment were not have been necessary for the Opposition accepted, the result would be that nobody to move its amendment. except a carpenter could carry out any work whatever. In country areas where there are We will ensure that the people know that no carpenters, people would be forced to anyone who carries out work to the value import carpenters from other parts of the of less than $500 does not have to be regis­ State simply because the Building Workers' tered, so that if persons who have work done Industria.! Union has asked the honourable for them meet any problems they can make member to suggest that no amount should the Opposition aware of them so that they be fixed. can be passed on to the Minister. It is quite evident that many Government mem­ Mr. Sherrington: Do you believe in non­ bers have had no experience at all with union labour? builders who carry out repairs, alterations and renovations. I exclude from those com­ Mr. MILLER: I do not, but I see no ments the Minister for Transport, who was reason at all why pensioners who were pre­ engaged in that type of work for a consider­ viously tradesmen cannot be given the oppor­ able time. He knows as well as I do that tunity of working in their old age to help we have been called upon to rectify mis· supplement their income. takes in work that would almost make a Mr. Sherrington: They are members of builder weep, mistakes that pensioners and the union. people on low incomes are called upon to pay for. Mr. MILLER: They will not be registered under the Bill. The Opposition's amendment Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister would prevent them from doing any work at for Works and Housing) (11.56 p.m.): The all. honourable member for Belmont gave us a clear indication that he does not regard the Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.52 p.m.): I people of Queensland as being very intelli­ am, of course, not amazed by the comments gent. Not one person need employ an of the honourable member for Ithaca in unregistered builder. Anyone who wishes to relation to union labour. All I can say is have work done will no doubt avail himself that his mind must be a blank. The position of the services of a registered builder. The to which he has made particular reference honourable member's argument was com­ was dealt with when the previous Bill was pletely fallacious. introduced in 1971. On that occasion the Minister made it quite clear that among Mr. MILLER (Ithaca) (11.57 p.m.): The those persons who would be exempted were honourable member for Belmont specialises those who work on the land. in drawing red herrings across the trail. He Mr. Miller: I am not talking about the said that I was referring to men working on man on the land. the land, but I made it clear that I was referring to people in country areas who Mr. NEWTON: You have had your say. wanted repairs carried out on their homes. The honourable member was fully aware of The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! what I was referring to. I remind the hon­ ourable member that I have supported the Mr. NEWTON: On that occasion I indi­ introduction of this measure on many cated that the Opposition would not raise occasions in this Assembly. I also remind any objection at all to that aspect of the him that, on every occasion, he was very legislation. All the honourable member for vocal in opposing the proposal. If anyone Hhaca is trying to do tonight is drag red has any new thoughts on the registration herrings across the trail. of builders, it is members of the Opposition and not Government members. He has claimed that I am the spokesman for my union. No member of the Opposition I assure the honourable member for who is a member of a union would want to Belmont that I am very happy to know that see work that rightly belongs to his union unions will inform the public that there carried out by other than union labour. It are carpenters who are not registered. I am is clear that the intention of the Bill is only seeking a right for these people to 3610 Builders' Registration, &c., Bill [3 & 4 APRIL 1973] Pollution of Waters, &c., Bill

do work; a right for a member of the public no argument with paragraphs (a) and (c). to be able to choose whether he wants a However, we are concerned with paragraph registered carpenter or, perhaps, a pensioner (b), which reads- to do a job. I firmly believe that we shonld "by leaving it for him at his place of have this amount of $500 to enable pen­ abode or business last known to the Board sioners to earn extra money. A member of with some other person apparently an the public should have a right to say inmate -thereof or employee thereat, and whether or not he will employ a registered apparently of or over the age of sixteen builder or carpenter or a pensioner. I repeat years;" that we should not have to import carpenters I am mainly concerned with the employment to country areas to do small jobs, because of apprentices. There is no doubt that a that is not an economic proposition. As the good relationship exists between builders and honourable member for Belmont assured the apprentices. I believe that a person of 16 Chamber in reply to my comments that he years is too young to be served with notices is concerned only with scab labour, to use by the board. This could involve an appren­ his words, I believe that the Opposition is tice in his first or second year. To test the trying to control non-union labour through feeling of the Committee, I move the follow­ this Biii. That is the main aim of the ing amendment:- Building Workers' Industrial Union. "On page 5, line 47, omit the word­ Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (11.59 p.m.): 'sixteen' The Minister and the honourable member for and insert in lieu thereof the word­ Ithaca are both confused. The Minister made 'eighteen'." certain statements about work carried out under the value of $500 and the honourable Hon. A. M. HODGES (Gympie-Minister member for Ithaca gave a completely differ­ for Works and Housing) (12.3 a.m.): The ent opinion on this provision. age of 16 is the one commonly stated in pro­ To reply firstly to the honourable member visions of this nature in other legislation. It for Ithaca, he should thank God that there has been so for many years in this State. I is now a different Government in the cannot see any reason for departing from that Federal sphere because under the former standard, and I therefore have no reason to Liberal-Country Party Government pen­ accept -the amendment. sioners could not earn more than $156 a Amendment (Mr. Newton) negatived. year. At that time a pensioner was allowed to earn only $3 a week. Clause 12, as read, agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment. The ACTING CHAIRMAN: Order! The honourable member will confine his remarks to clause 9. POLLUTION OF WATERS BY OIL BILl Mr. NEWTON: I should like to know what else I am speaking on. SECOND READING Hon. N. T. E. HEWITT (Auburn-Minister The ACTING CHAIRMAN: The hon­ for Conservation, Marine and Aboriginal ourable member is certainly not dealing with Affairs) (12.5 a.m.): I move--- clause 9. "That the Bill be now read a second Mr. NEWTON: It seems, Mr. Wharton, time." that you are taking away my right to reply My introduction of the Bill described in to the honourable member for Ithaca and some detail the major provisions of the Bill the Minister on clause 9. Opposition mem­ and the reasons for their inclusion in it. bers made their position clear during the As I informed honourable members during introduction of the Bill and again tonight. the introduction, the Bill is complementary Any complaints we receive regarding work to Commonwealth legislation and is intended up to the value of $500 will be referred to to ensure that an offender could not escape the Minister in the same way as we have legal action on the grounds of jurisdiction. referred complaints to him from builders Either the Commonwealth or the State Act who were not granted registration. would apply. Amendment (Mr. Newton) negatived. The honourable member for Cook raised the question of the proportion of oil in an Clause 9, as read, agreed to. oily mixture discharged. In terms of the Bill, Clauses 10 and 11, as read, agreed to. the discharge of any oil or mixture containing oil is an offence, irrespective of the ratio of oil in the mixture. It will no longer be necessary to prove for prosecution purposes [Wednesday, 4 April 1973] that there was at least one hundred parts Clause 12-New section 42A; Service of per million of oil in the mixture. This will notices, etc.- make it much easier to prosecute. Often by the time a sample is taken the oil film has Mr. NEWTON (Belmont) (12.1 a.m.): diluted below that level, and the sample will This clause adds a new section. We have not support prosecution. Pollution of Waters [3 & 4 APRIL 1973] By Oil Bill 3611

The honourable member also raised the the Commonwealth and Queensland which question of policing the Act in the remote has no relation to the question of legal juris­ areas off the North Queensland coast. I diction. There is a clear administrative under­ concede that this is a problem. There is little standing that the Commonwealth has prime to be gained by mounting a costly investiga­ responsibility to deal with offshore spills, and tion in a remote area unless information is the State has prime responsibility in all other received at tr.e time of observation of oil. In cases. Close consultation between Common­ North Queensland waters, with the strong wealth and State officers takes place in any currents and mostly moderately windy con­ offshore oil incident. The proposed legislation ditions, oil disperses rapidly. If information is complementary to Commonwealth legisla­ of an oil slick is received in good time the tion in case there is a challenge on the best endeavours are made to investigate it. question of legal jurisdiction. The comple­ With regard to the matter of lines of com­ mentary legislation will ensure that if action munication which was raised by the honour­ is challenged under one Act, it may be taken able member, I can assure him that there is under the other. full communication between local and port The honourable member for Barron River authorities and the Department of Harbours also raised the question of action taken on and Marine, and also between that department the various items of general conclusions con­ and other State departments as well as the tained in the report on the "Oceanic Commonwealth. Grandeur" incident. Action has been taken On the matter of uniformity, this Bill is on all these items. The types of oil likely to based on a model Bill proposed by a com­ be carried on the Queensland coast are mittee of the Association of Australian Port known, and experiments are carried out by and Marine Authorities, and the model Bill officers of the Department of Primary has been generally approved by the Com­ Industries on all dispersant chemicals sub­ monwealth and all States. mitted for evaluation of toxicity and stability of emulsion. Light aircraft are used to spot The honourable member for Cook also and track any reported offshore oil spill. raised the question of the change in title of lhe Bill. The purpose of the change is to Arrangements are in hand for the establish­ extend the provisions of the Bill to include ment of major stockpiles of dispersant and all waters in Queensland likely to be polluted equipment at Brisbane and Cairns. An inven­ by oil, including tidal waters, lakes, water tory is kept of supplies of such materials storages, rivers, creeks, and the like. The and equipment at all ports. All possible existing Act relates only to navigable waters, information on tidal currents along the coast which may not include shallow streams and has been gathered. Experience has shown lakes. that in most cases wind is the major factor influencing the movement of floating oil. The honourable member for Chatsworth referred to the "Oceanic Grandeur" incident. An inventory has been prepared of small I am sure he would agree with the honourable craft and light commercial aircraft in all member for Port Curtis that there was no areas. reflection on the ability of the pilot in this The most efficient means of communication instance. The ship was holed by an uncharted in an emergency has been found to be the pinnacle. Although at one time its forward police communications centre. All depart­ deck was partly submerged, the vessel was mental vessels are equipped with radio fitted afloat at all times. The "Oceanic Grandeur" with police working frequencies. incident, I am pleased to say, has been the As I mentioned previously, there is now a only one of its kind in Australian waters. It clear-cut administrative arrangement between provided valuable experience on which many Commonwealth and State Governments for of the provisions of this Bill are based. It dealing with an oil spill. The oil industry, provides that the Minister may in similar through its Environmental Conservation circumstances require such action to be taken Executive, has prepared an Australia-wide in relation to the ship or its cargo as is organisation and has pledged its co-operation specified in his notice served on the ship. with technical and material asistance to all The honourable member for Chatsworth levels of government. raised the question of the use of dispersants Consultation continues between the Com­ in the "Oceanic Grandeur" incident. There monwealth and the States on the national is no evidence to support the claim that the oil pollution plan. A point has been reached comparatively small quantity of dispersant where stockpiles of dispersant and spraying used (about 150 drums) had any adverse effect equipment are about to be set up throughout upon the pearl culture industry. This claim Australia. Research continues into other was fully investigated by a C.S.I.R.O. methods of dealing with floating oil. scientist, and was refuted. Queensland regulations relating to the The honourable member for Barron River Torres Straits Pilot Service have been raised the question of co-ordination between amended to provide more control over Government departments. A special inter­ matters affecting safe navigation. The departmental committee exists to determine Commonwealth have instigated detailed tidal policy for dealing with oil spills. There is studies in the Torres Straits and have a clear definition of responsibility between installed additional navigation aids. 3612 Pollution of Waters [3 & 4 APRIL 1973] By Oil Bill

The honourable member for Barron than a massive use of dispersant, at greater River also mentioned the matter of the cost, and at the risk of ruining the prawn Greek sugar ship which was reported to be and other fisheries, both commercial and discharging oil after leaving Townsville. recreational, which are of significant value When challenged, the master offered a to the Gold Coast. logical explanation for the discolouration. It is routine to wash down after leaving port. On the matter of research, I can assure No subsequent reports of oil in the vicinity the honourable member that considerable were received. The only way to investigate and continuing research into all forms of properly a reported spill in offshore waters water pollution is being carried out by the is by surface craft. Many reports of Water Quality Control Council. suspected oil pollution have proved to be false. In many cases the discoloration has The honourable member for Lytton been proven to be of natural origin, such asked whether the proposed legislation would as reef plankton. A judgment has to be apply to industries which are discharging made as to whether there is justification for wastes into waters under an agreement or sending out a special vessel, often over long licence in terms of some other Act. In his distances, to investigate doubtful reports. In quotation from the Alcan Queensland Pro­ this instance it was decided that a special prietary Limited Agreement Act of 1965, investigation was not warranted. the honourable member quoted only part of The honourable member also raised the the Act. In doing this, he was completely matter of the effect of dispersants on marine misleading. The further provisions, which he life. My Government is conscious of this did not quote, read as follows- possibility and has adopted an interim policy "Any such discharge shall not (unless until more is known on this subject-namely, specifically authorised by the Minister for that dispersants will not be used except when a particular purpose) be substantially there is a risk to human life and property injurious to marine life, shall not cause by fire or explosion, or in other special harmful pollution of waters, and shall not circumstances. There is a strong body of contain harmful solids. The Minister may opinion that oil itself is less objectionable in from time to time direct the company to the biological sense than an oil-dispersant make known to such persons as shall be mixture. specified by him, and the company shall I agree with the honourable member for so make known, the nature of the effluent Windsor that there is as yet no complete discharged, or to be discharged." answer to the control and clean-up of major oil pollution, even in countries such as the Clause 8 of the Bill certainly excludes dis­ United States of America and Great Britain. charges that are permitted under other laws There is no really effective method of deal­ which would include agreements. ratified by ing with a major oil spill at sea except in Act of Parliament, but clause 8 is confined calm conditions, which rarely occur. This in its operation to discharges that occur in has led my Government to adopt the interim accordance with the terms of the authority policy, until better methods become avail­ granted under that other law. So that, to able, of leaving an oil spill alone unless take the case of Alcan as an example, if there is danger to life or property by fire the discharge by the company were of oil or explosion. In Queensland, where so many that was in excess of the quantity permitted fisheries and the Barrier Reef depend on under the agreement, this Bill would then non-toxic waters, it could be dangerous to apply and action could be taken as provided adopt any other policy. Furthermore, it is by it. probably more efficient and, in the long run, cheaper to clean beaches by mechanical The honourable member also raised the means than to mount a sea operation. matter of the defence in the existing Act Experience so far has been that dispersants against prosecution where it cannot be proven have little effect on oil which has lost its that a discharge contained at least one volatile fractions by evaporation, a process hundred parts per million of oil. It will be which occurs quickly in tropical or semi­ much easier to prosecute offenders when this tropical conditions. defence is removed, as I explained in my reply to the honourable member for Cook. The honourable member for Albert expressed the opinion that the proposed I agree with the honourable member that maximum penalty of $50,000 is inadequate. enforcement is often a problem. In the The existing legislation provides for a penalty Brisbane River, unless oil is actually seen of only $2,000. Under the proposed legisla­ emerging from a ship it is seldom possible to tion the offender is not only liable to be support a prosecution unless either the ship's fined but he is also responsible for clean-up master admits the offence or irrefutable costs. This liability is limited only in the case of a tanker, and the limit is set at evidence is found on the ship. It is the inten­ $12,600,000. A spill on Gold Coast beaches tion of the Department of Harbours and would be a very serious matter, but beaches Marine to set up a river patrol. One of the can be cleaned fairly quickly by use of most important functions of such a patrol mechanical earth-moving equipment. Further­ will be to look for illegal discharges and to more, this might be a more correct approach take immediate steps to stop the discharge, to Pollution of Waters [3 & 4 APRIL 1973] By Oil Bill 3613 obtain evidence for prosecution and to com­ instance thousands of gallons of oil were mence the clean-up. It is the policy of the lost, and it lay 2 to 3 feet deep ah?ng Department of Harbours and Marine to each side of the railway line. In vrew prosecute whenever sufficient evidence can be of the report that only 3 tons of oil was obtained. reported as being spilt at Cairns, it was In reply to the honourable member for alarming to learn that a 6-inch layer of Sandgate, I am advised that it has not been oil was floating on the surface of the water. reliably established that either mortalities of As the Minister has said, wind rather fish, including mullet, in the Moreton Bay than currents is the main factor in spreading region, or mortalities to oysters, can be oil slicks. It is easy to understand that ascribed to oil contamination or pollution. they can drift into many places, not only However, the pollution by oil of Moreton in deep water but also around river estuaries Bay and any other waters must be prevented and tidal flats. Thousands of dollars worth as far as possible and any offenders suitably of damage could result to property and dealt with. That is the purpose of this Bill. boats. In reply to the honourable member for The Minister has answered my query as Port Curtis, the Bill does empower the to the percentage of oil in a substance. harbour authority to provide oil facilities The discharge of any oily substance constitutes for the reception of oily residues, or, with the an offence. I was disturbed at the possibility consent of the Minister, require the owner of an element of doubt intruding into this of oil or repair establishments to provide matter; however, his explanation has satis­ such facilities. fied me that the discharge of any oily sub­ The honourable member also raised the stance is an offence. matter of compensation for persons who The Bill gives the Minister sweeping suffer loss or damage by reason of a dis­ powers, and on that score is to be corn­ charge of oil. Clause 25 of the Bill provides mended. He is able to move a ship or for recovery from the owner of loss or even to arrest it in order to prevent further damage resulting from a spill of oil from a pollution. tanker. This is in accordance with the international convention. The expense involved in cleaning up pollu­ Of course, action for recovery of damages tion caused by oil can be quite considerable, caused by an oil spill from any source may so it is pleasing to note that a person be taken in a civil court. who causes pollution, in addition to paying the prescribed fine, will be required to meet I have not attempted to deal with every the cost of cleaning up. detail raised in the debate on the introduction of this Bill, but I believe that my remarks The Bill sets out the areas that will be have dealt with the more important points under the control of a harbour board, a raised by honourable members and that at local authority, a harbour trust and the this time nothing has been said which could Marine Board. constitute a challenge to any part of the Bill. The term "cargo" is defined as including ballast and ship's stores and fuel. I think Mr. WALLIS-SMITH (Cook) (12.18 a.m.): everyone realises that in this modern age It was quite a sensible change for the Minister nearly all vessels use oil fuel. This means to extend the provisions of the Bill to cover that the large quantity of fuel carried by all waters. After all, whether waters are ships puts them almost in the category of navigable or not, they can be and are polluted tankers. Apart from the discharge of by oil. The Minister explained some of the residue oil, there is always the danger that purposes of the legislation, and we on this in the event of a wreck or a collision a side of the Chamber are quite happy about large amount of fuel oil could be discharged them. I hope that the Minister and his into the sea and thereby cause serious department will not let anything stand in the pollution. Oil tankers are the only ships way of complete implementation and policing on which a limitation of fine is imposed, but of the clauses of the Bill. the fine could be $12,600,000 which is not The Minister enlarged on the discharge of inconsiderable. oil from ships and on land and from the The incident involving the "Oceanic equipment used in the transfer of fuel. Since Grandeur" was dangerously close to a the introduction of the Bill, there has been an calamity. I ask the Mini&ter to consider the oil spillage in the Port of Cairns. Human possibility of providing that ships shall not error must have been the cause because it sail in reef waters without a pilot. A flight has been reported that a valve was left in a over the Barrier Reef shows how extensive the wrong position and a leakage of oil resulted. reefs are, with some running from east to When refuelling is carried out by pumping west, but the majority running from north to oil from underground storage there is always south. It is easy to realise, if a ship takes the the possibility of a flow-back of oil. I inside channel, why it should be under the know of two occasions when flow-back supervision of an expert pilot. I should like occurred while fuel was being transferred the Minister to consider making it mandatory from railway wagons to depots. In one for oil tankers particularly to carry a pilot 3614 Pollution of Waters [3 & 4 APRIL 1973] By Oil Bill while travelling in Queensland waters, because officer has power to board a ship at any time I believe that a calamity further south would to view the records or to see the equipment, have dire effects. The Minister told us that and a heavy penalty is provided if he is it may be better in such circumstances to prevented from carrying out his duty. leave the oil on the water rather than attempt to disperse it with detergent or The Opposition is quite happy with the emulsifiers. I should think that a calamity Bill and will move no amendments or other­ in our enclosed waters would create oil wise obstruct its passage. problems for many years on the island beaches and the coastal tidal flats. In view Mr. W. D. HEWITT (Chatsworth) (12.32 of the currents that run inside the Barrier a.m.) : At the introductory stage the honour­ Reef and the protection afforded by many able member for Port Curtis chided me coral outcrops and large islands such as gently for loosely using the words "sinking" Hinchinbrook Island, it would be almost and "grounding". I accept the rebuke. I impossible to clean up a major oil spillage. did use those words loosely, and I readily The Minister told us that it would be cheaper concede that the "Oceanic Grandeur" neither to try to clean up a large oil spillage than to sank nor grounded. Rather, it hit an disperse it, but I believe it would be almost uncharted pinnacle and the pilot of the ship impossible to clean it up. could not be blamed. If any of my com­ ments implied that blame attached to him, I should like all ships, but particularly I assure the honourable member for Port tankers, travelling inside the reef waters to Curtis that it was not intended. carry pilots, because all vessels now carry a large quantity of oil. An Opposition Member: Such was not the case. To give the Chamber an idea of the oil imported into Australia, I cite the following Mr. W. D. HEWITT: Such was not the statistics- case. I thank the honourable member for Gallons his assistance. 1961-62 3,687,545,000 I have informed the honourable member 1969-70 5, 713,660,000 for Salisbury that I will talk for only 40 minutes, and he is relieved. As one who has 1971-72 3,361,339,000 waited some time for this legislation to be The total quantity moved by sea in and out of introduced, I greet it with enthusiasm. It Australia annually represents 3,726,148,000 is a very necessary piece of legislation to have upon the Statute Book. gallons. In 1971-72 Australia exported 364,809,000 gallons, which is the equivalent The penalty of $50,000 is reasonable, of a daily movement of 997,000 gallons. considering the great damage that can be The danger is constant throughout the year, done. I also believe that the wide powers irrespective of the season. That is why I given to the Minister are timely. The Bill believe movement of oil ships should be quite rightly allows shipowners certain under the control of pilots, who are always defences if they can prove that the discharge available from the Torres Strait south. of oil was necessary to save life or was attributable to a collision or other happening The Minister mentioned the possible use beyond their control. While this is reason­ of light aircraft and any other craft avail­ able to avoid a criminal offence, I want it able, and an efficient linking-up with the clearly understood that the rights to civil police. This will be an advantage in getting action are fully preserved. If a local area to the scene quickly. The Minister also is polluted, it does not matter much whether referred to our long coastline and the many it happened deliberately or as the result of isolated areas along it which would be an accident. The damage is the same and the difficult to police. The better policing of the right to redress must be preserved. Brisbane River will be welcomed. It is fast When a Bill provides that the Minister becoming a river of which we cannot be "may take action as he considers appropriate proud. to preserve the waters from pollution by The Bill prescribes the equipment that oil", honourable members would quite rightly ships will have to carry. It includes a tank concede that those powers are very wide for residue oil. The Bill also provides the indeed. In a special reference to bulk oil records that must be kept. If those two tankers, the Bill provides that the Minister provisions can be adequately policed, they should "cause such things to be done as he will go a long way towards stopping the thinks proper to prevent or reduce the extent unlawful discharge of oil from ships. The of the pollution." I do not think the Minister amount of oil carried by a ship could be could ask for powers wider than those, and recorded at the point of departure and the I do not think that Parliament would dis­ pute that in an extreme emergency such officers who board the ship at its destination powers are absolutely necessary. would know if any oil had been discharged. This is one way of overcoming the discharge The Bill refers to equipment and manage­ of oil by ships. I hope that the Minister ment of intrastate ships. This is very appro­ can arrange for records to be inspected. The priate. It is a truism that prevention is Pollution of Waters [3 & 4 APRIL 1973] By Oil Bill 3615 certainly better than cure, and it is import­ of detection must still be a major consider­ ant that standard equipment be carried on ation of Parliament. Enforcement is even ships and that this be properly regulated. more important. Enforcement is probably For that reason, I am pleased that the Bill the most important single feature. contains such a provision. The Minister also mentioned research. Loath as I am to cut short what promises Although the Government is taking some to be an outstanding speech, I am prepared action in this direction, I do not think it to bow to the will of the House. Before is nearly sufficient for a State that has concluding, however, I wish to refer to the such extensive water boundaries. Because provision that calls upon harbour boards of the natural asset of its waterways, Queens­ to provide facilities to enable ships to dispose land faces more difficulties than other States. of oil residue. The relevant clause provides Its future is dependent on those waterways; that harbour boards "may" provide these therefme, pollution by oil surely must be facilities. If, on the one hand, we are to a major consideration. As legislation is impose heavy penalties on polluters, we being framed for the guidance of future should, on the other, see that they are given generat'ions, I stress the importance of the the opportunity when in harbour to rid them­ Government playing an important role in self of sludge and surplus oil. I hope the future research. Minister will be able to bring some pressure to bear on harbour boards and make sure Mr. BURNS (Lytton) (12.41 a.m.): I wish that they in fact provide such facilities, and to refer briefly to the Minister's statement that they take up the option that is afforded that the section in which a standard is laid them by this Bill. down of one hundred parts per million of oil in water wiii be removed. It is not in the One could dwell upon the running brawl Bill. In the booklet "The State of Queens­ that took place for years between the State land", issued by the Public Research Group, and Commonwealth Governments with regard this point is made- to incinerators for the disposal of ships' garbage. Whilst this brawl proceeded, any "No real tangible standards existed to type of highly contagious disease could have define poiiution for any of the Acts except been introduced to this country. I do not where the Pollution of Waters by Oils think that situation reflected particularly well Act 1960-61, Section 4 (3), (a) and (b) on either the State or the Commonwealth. defined it to be 100 parts of oil mixture I believe that some authority should have to 1,000,000 parts water." installed incinerators, and then worried about It has been said by the Minister-probably who was to "pick up the tab". Again referr­ correctly-that an attempt will be made to ing to the truism that prevention is better deal with anyone who puts any amount of than cure, I think it is incumbent on oil into a river or a stream, or into coastal harbour boards to provide facilities by means waters. It seems to me that it will be open of which oil and sludge can be properly to a smart lawyer to argue against a con­ disposed of, thus minimising the risk of viction without set standards and I suggest pollution of waters. that no-one wiii be convicted of this offence. Having made those points, and recognising In an article in "The Courier-Mail", Alan that at this hour of night the players and Underwood reports on an analysis of water the stayers are sorted out, I am prepared to taken from the Brisbane River that he made say that I support the Bill with enthusiasm, on 7 December 1972. The article reads- and I am very happy that the Minister has seen fit to bring it down. "The oil and grease content is 6,300 units. Mr. D'ARCY (Albert) (12.38 a.m.): I "On this, the Water Quality Council have only a couple of points to raise. The chairman (Mr. R. D. King-Scott) com­ Minister mentioned the increase in the fine mented: from $2,000 to $50,000. Although that is 'There should not be any oil or grease a substantial increase, in my opinion it still in the water. But in a river where does not reflect the real seriousness of major there are boats, a content of about 100 oil pollution. units is permissible. The Minister pointed out that he is to 'This sample shows 6,300 units.'" have wide powers of detection and enforce• ment. The important thing is that those If a statement is made by the chairman of powers be used. In the past, they have the Water Quality Control Council that in rarely been used. In fact, so weak have the average river one can expect 100 units of oil, how will it be possible to obtain the Government's efforts been in so many a conviction when the Minister says, "We areas of enforcement that it cannot really can't catch them discharging it. We only find be expected that the Minister will use the it in the river later on. One of our problems powers that he is now to be given. The has been that we cannot find 100 parts Minister said that he intends to institute per million of oil to water."? Any lawyer patrols of the Brisbane River. Although I will go into court and use Mr. King-scott's look forward to this step, the actual methods statement about there being 100 parts of 3616 Pollution of Waters, &c., Bill [4 APRIL 1973] Privilege

oil in the river continuously. He will say, "You say that my client put one part of oil into a million parts of water, but you can't prove that he did." We have created a way out in that no standard is laid down. The old standard of over 100 parts provided some opportunity to put a case in support of a prosecution and say, "We have taken these samples and there is more than 100 parts per million oil to water." The situation now is that 100 parts are in the river con­ sistently and the Minister is saying. "If they put one part in, we will prosecute them." It cannot be done; it is an impossibility. A smart lawyer, acting on behalf of the company con­ cerned, will win on every occasion. There is very little possibility of the Minister being able to implement that provision of the Act. Instead of six or eight people being prosecuted in 10 years, in future there will be none. It is all very well to refer to what happens in New South Wales and Victoria. Queensland takes pride that we are acting first. In this instance, in my opinion the Government is doing the wrong thing by removing the only standard that gives it an opportunity to prosecute those who pollute 1:he streams of this State.

Hon. N. T. E. HEWITI (Auburn­ Minister for Conservation, Marine and Aboriginal Affairs) (12.44 a.m.), in reply: Only a couple of points have been made to which I think I should reply. The honourable member for Cook raised the question of the use of Torres Strait pilots inside the reef. This was discussed with the Commonwealth, which was not in favour of the pwposal, and my information also is that it would not be acceptable internationally. The honourable member for Chatsworth spoke about the responsibilities of harbour boards. I will certainly be keeping an eye on what harbour boards do. If we find that they are not doing the right thing by getting the receptacles in quickly, we will take some action. The point raised by the honourable mem­ ber for Lytton has been noted. We will certainly be doing our best to catch anyone who discharges oil. No doubt he was referring to small craft in particular. Motion (Mr. Hewitt) agreed to.

CoMMITTEE (The Acting Chairman of Committees, Mr. Wharton, Burnett, in the chair) Clauses 1 to 44, both inclusive, and schedule, as read, agreed to. Bill reported, without amendment. The House adjourned at 12.48 a.m. (Wednesday).