SENATE JOURNAL EIGHTY-SEVENTH LEGISLATURE — SECOND CALLED SESSION AUSTIN, TEXAS

PROCEEDINGS

ADDENDUM (THIRD DAY — Tuesday, August 10, 2021) The following remarks regarding SBi29, 87th Legislature, Regular Session, and the remarks regarding SBi2, 87th Legislature, First Called Session, were ordered reduced to writing and printed in the Senate Journal. SENATE BILL 29 Wednesday, April 14, 2021 President:iiSenator Perry, you re’ recognized on Committee Substitute for Senate Bill 29 to suspend the regular order of business. Senator Perry:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident and Members. Senate Bill 29, fair sports for women and girls, is a reflection of Title IX that was actually set up in 1973 providing for a fair and safe environment for women to competitive athletes and their biological peer groups. Recent years there has been a steady increase in the number of biologically born males competing in female sports. Many students, parents, coaches have raised concerns for the safety of the female athletes that are required to compete against the biological males. Additionally, biologically born males often have significant physical advantages over the female opponents, and the inclusion of biological males in the female sport may deny female athletics the recognition that they worked so hard to achieve. Senate Bill 29 requires UIL athletes to compete in sports associated with their biological sex as determined at birth or near birth. Under Senate Bill 29, female athletes are allowed to compete in the male sports if corresponding female sport is not available in the athletic team, they can qualify to compete in that. It s’ consistent with Title IX. Members, I do have an amendment, will be offering an amendment that will basically allow a record other than a birth certificate if not available to be used for UIL registration. With that, I move to suspend the regular order of business if there s’ no questions. President:iiSenator Mene´ndez, your light was on and off, did you want to speak? Senator Mene´ndez, did you want to speak? Senator Mene´ndez:iiMr.iPresident, I have a couple amendments. I m’ going to wait for that. And I ll’ just– President:iiOkay. Senator Mene´ndez:ii–wait and let the author of the– President:iiSure. A2 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Mene´ndez:ii–thank you. Secretary of the Senate:iiFloor Amendment No.i1 by Perry. President:iiYou re’ recognized on your amendment. Senator Perry:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. This amendment basically allows for a situation where a student could not produce an official original birth certificate at or near birth, and it just allows for a other government record to be used in substitute thereof. President:iiMembers, any, Senator Whitmire, you re’ recognized. For what purpose? Senator Whitmire:iiWill the gentleman yield? President:iiDo you yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Senator Whitmire:iiSenator Perry, it s’ my understanding that the UIL is already making decisions on how to address the transgender athlete. In fact, I think I m’ holding a document that shows where Mack Beggs, who was forced to wrestle with girls despite being a transgender boy. So, are you offering up one your legislation in this amendment asking UIL to address with their rules, addressing something that is already currently being handled in the eyes of many individuals, certainly myself, are dealing with it in a responsible fashion. Senator Perry:iiSo, to be clear, Senate Bill 29 actually just codifies what current UIL policy is. One change that probably is significant in that they do look to the birth certificate initially. If that birth certificate is not available, then they will allow other documents. This amendment makes that allowance to be consistent with where UIL is. We have not in Texas as much yet but it s’ coming. There s,’ Connecticut s’ currently got a situation where a biological male, I believe it s’ two biological males, let me confirm that before I tell you this. Senator Whitmire:iiWhere was this? Senator Perry:iiIn Connecticut. Two biological male athletes have amassed– Senator Whitmire:iiConnecticut? Senator Perry:ii–15 state championships– Senator Whitmire:iiOh, how about Texas? Senator Perry:ii–that were, that, this is coming to Texas. If you ask any coach or any administration or anybody in UIL, this is what we re’ preparing for in Texas. So, that said, this codifies what UIL is currently doing, and one exception to the birth certificate is I clarify at or near birth so that those amended birth certificates that they currently now are required to take would not be allowable anymore. Senator Whitmire:iiCould I ask you how many instances probably today, in Texas, are we dealing? And obviously, my direction of my question is, is it a wide enough concern of yours to justify proposed legislation. I mean, I m’ very close to my Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A3 constituents, I have transgender friends, constituents, supporters. I have individuals that do not have the transgender experience, and I just don t’ see a significant incidence of what you re’ addressing. Senator Perry:iiSo, I ll’ answer it this way, transgenders can still compete in competitive athletics under UIL under their biological sex. So, we re’ not prohibiting them from staying out of competitive sports. We re’ not prohibiting them from staying out of UIL sanctioned sports. They do it according to their biological, but to your, to your question, as we see this trend and these issues become more and more prevalent. Senator Whitmire:iiSo, you see it, a movement, coming this direction from you just mentioned Connecticut, but– Senator Perry:iiI m–’ Senator Whitmire:ii–we are– Senator Perry:ii–I am told. Senator Whitmire:ii–what, the second largest state, probably have as much sports as anyone, and just, would you not agree as we stand here on this floor, most local jurisdictions are handling it appropriately or we d’ be hearing about it? Senator Perry:iiWe, we are preparing for a trend that is being nationally recognized as a problem from a safety perspective. Senator Whitmire:iiAs by who? Senator Perry:iiDo what? I think UIL will tell you this is– Senator Whitmire:iiRecognized as a problem– Senator Perry:ii–you– Senator Whitmire:ii–not by the NCAA for sure. Senator Perry:iiYou know what, the NCAA, we have no jurisdiction over in this state. We don t’ administer any rule or jurisdiction over them, but if you ll’ look to the NCAA s’ mission statement, to achieve our mission we preserve sports tradition and integrity and emphasize student athletic safety. They ought to go back and read that mission because student safety s’ a big concern. You take a 16-year-old adolescent male that is just starting a transition that shows up on a soccer field of a girls ’athletic team, they have an advantage most the time in bone density and body mass, and threat or potential safety issues with respect to running over those girls is real. So, talk to the parents that have that situation come up. There s’ more of them than you think going on in the state. You just haven t’ heard about them yet. Senator Whitmire:iiSo, you didn t’ introduce this last session, I recall, or even the session before. In fact, you ve’ been a Member of the Senate and the House for a large number of years, and you haven t’ felt motivated or concerned to introduce you, legislation dealing with this very serious subject. Why this year? Except I think maybe you just told me, it s’ a national movement allowing transgender children to compete in their transgender identity instead of their biological sex. So, you re’ preparing for an onslaught of problems? Senator Perry:iiYou, we can have this a, a lot– A4 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Whitmire:iiIn your mind– Senator Perry:ii–of ti– Senator Whitmire:ii–not in my mind. Senator Perry:iiYeah. Senator Whitmire:iiI think it s’ being well handled. Senator Perry:iiI would say the more prevalent it gets, the more important this particular bill is. And it s’ going to get more prevalent, and if you don t’ think it is, you can t’ ignore the conversations we re’ having in this state regarding this issue on all other levels, too. But I did have an administration that day one, I believe that first or second or third executive order put out effectively what this bill would be not for and then reversed it because of the pushback because Title IX is such a critical component– Senator Whitmire:iiSure. Senator Perry:ii–of female athletes and protecting what we ve’ gained in those is the primary focus in a safe, competitive peer group setting so that when they are recognized they re’ recognized on a level playing field. Senator Whitmire:iiAnd I understand that s’ your proposal. Are you familiar with the front page of the Austin American-Statesman today, which is actually a couple of days after Houston ran it in their papers, where the NCAA is warning Texas that you ve’ got two Final Four scheduled, one national college football championship, and one college girls ’championship would be in jeopardy, I think the revenue estimates are over a billion dollars to the State of Texas that those events would be in jeopardy if we continue to purs– go down the path that you re’ proposing. Senator Perry:iiSo, let s’ be clear, and I ve’ been on this floor before and said it as much, sometimes things are more worth than money. Senator Whitmire:iiFor sure. Senator Perry:iiAnd my perspective here is, is the first time– Senator Whitmire:iiWhat about equality? How do you put a value on equality? The transgender children just want to be treated equal. Senator Perry:iiThey are equal under their biological sex under this bill. I didn t’ change a thing, they– Senator Whitmire:iiSee I don t–’ Senator Perry:ii–go play all day long. Senator Whitmire:ii–see I don t’ think, I don t’ think you fully understand– Senator Perry:iiI fully understand. Senator Whitmire:ii–local concerns and the, I ’d almost say the unintended consequences, they may be intended consequences, and I hate to bring up the bathroom bill, but you know we were told the world was going to come to an end if we didn t’ pass it, so are you perhaps, and we haven t’ come to an end when it did not Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A5 become law. Do you think, perhaps, you re’ just overly concerned or taking a more extreme position than necessary with, with some major perhaps unintended consequences or the fallout could, could affect this– Senator Perry:iiLet me– Senator Whitmire:ii–group of individuals, young people, mental health concerns? Senator Perry:ii–we have plenty of mental health. Senator Whitmire:iiYou demonize a, a group of students unnecessarily. Senator Perry:iiIs there a question in this? Senator Whitmire:iiSir? Senator Perry:iiIs there a question in this? Senator Whitmire:iiThe question is are you not concerned that you re’ demonizing people unnecessarily that are already discriminated against. Senator Perry:iiWe, we always make decisions on here and try to balance out all equations. So, one concern I have is 195-pound individual male running over 120-pound female athlete and she s’ permanently damaged– Senator Whitmire:iiAnd how many times– Senator Perry:ii–for the future– Senator Whitmire:ii–how many instances of that can you– Senator Perry:iiI have one of those cases in my office as we speak, at a collegiate level it happened. Senator Whitmire:ii–but you compare that situation with the numerous instances where it s’ just not an issue for transgender athletes are being– Senator Perry:iiWell– Senator Whitmire:ii–are being regulated or being handled sensitively by the UIL and local authorities. Senator Perry:iiThe UIL is allowing that situation to exist because they don t’ have a correct birth certificate confirming the biological male. The situation doesn t’ change. Senator Whitmire:iiAnd so, you re’ not worried about the financial consequences. Senator Perry:iiIt s,’ the, you know– Senator Whitmire:iiSo, I understand if you, and you re’ a strong believer in your position so money shouldn t’ influence you, but it s’ the human factor that I would appeal to that, because I know you re’ a man of faith. You know, these transgender children are God s’ children so are you not concerned about the human factor, the feelings of these young individuals, their families, and what you could be doing to their life? Senator Perry:iiI am absolutely concerned about every child that we have responsibility over. A6 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Whitmire:iiAnd I will close and speak to you in closing, and when I asked Senator Hughes the other day did he have any undocumented friends when we were concerned about undocumented or non-citizens voting, and I didn t’ do it to challenge him on his friendships, but I think it s’ a fair question if you re’ trying to regulate a group of Texans. Do you have any transgender friends? Senator Perry:iiI don t’ know that I have any transgender friends. I wouldn t’ know that I would have any reason to know if they were or weren t.’ Senator Whitmire:iiBut if you hadn t’ changed, yeah, there, there use– Senator Perry:iiNot, not always. I ve’ met transgenders– Senator Whitmire:iiI ask, that is, I think it would make a difference. I do. And I think if you have an opportunity to meet the family, the individuals, their spiritual leaders, you would see that all they want, Senator, is to be left alone to raise their families, to be equal with their classmates, seen in the eyes of the public as– Senator Perry:iiYeah. Senator Whitmire:ii–fine Texans, and if you knew some of these individuals, I think it would make a huge difference. Senator Perry:iiI, and Dean, I met some of those individuals this week on a different bill, and I think that they deserve that respect. But I can also argue the same thing for the, the counterpart on the athletic field that s’ a woman that has spent years in AAU summer leagues, select summer leagues, achieving a highest level of competition you can have, have a opportunity for scholarships going forward and now the NCAA s’ selling out to taking her amateur status that we all are endeared to and moving it to professional ranks, which is going to destroy what we love about sports. So, this whole narrative is changing in a paradigm that s’ not healthy, but I have the same respect for those women that have done what they needed to do to be at their top of their game not to have a transgendered, biological male come in and steal all of those accolades from them and possibly their only ride to a college scholarship. And that s’ where the parents are getting upset. They re’ getting upset over the idea that that s’ what s’ happening. It ll’ continue to happen and they re’ also getting upset with the fact that their daughters are playing against males. That s’ not as safe. And so, I have a heart for everybody and in those situation. I don t,’ my faith tells me that s’ a different situation, but that s’ not what this is about. It s’ about making sure when we re’ faced with these choices that we do the balancing as best we can, and it only makes sense that a biological male stay with a biological male and the female stays with the female sport. If she can play on a male s’ sport, she s’ capable to do that with the UIL and that didn t’ change. Senator Whitmire:iiBut you do understand that there may not be two, three, four, maybe five transgendered athletes that would even be up for consideration for your, as a matter of your concern. I mean there just is a very small population, and then you look at how many are playing athletics, you re’ really proposing something to address probably less than maybe five transgender students. Senator Perry:iiAnd I don t’ have that number. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A7

Senator Whitmire:iiAnd it s’ handled so properly, have you, have you heard from a school official or coach that says, man we got a problem on our hand? You haven t,’ would you not agree, because they re’ not as– Senator Perry:iiThey– Senator Whitmire:ii–alarmed as in this. Senator Perry:ii–so under the current UIL rule, I m’ not sure we would know because the current UIL rule accepts amended birth certificates. Senator Whitmire:iiYou don t’ know. Senator Perry:iiI m’ not– Senator Whitmire:iiYou don t’ know how– Senator Perry:ii–telling you, I don t’ know that there is or isn t,’ but we don t’ know because the current UIL rule allows for us to not know. Senator Whitmire:iiWell, take my word for it because I do work. We had a transgender rally last fall on the steps of the Capitol. Statewide rally, there were a total of 200 transgender individuals participating. And, of course, I advised them to get to know their State Rep and State Senator. I believe that day I was the only elected official at the rally, but I wish you would take time to meet one of the families when they re’ real young individuals that really just want to be left alone. And I think your legislation will create an unnecessary focus on their ability to live in their community and in their school setting without being discriminated against. Senator Perry:iiNothing changes for that perspective. Thank you, Sir. Senator Whitmire:iiThank you, Senator. President:iiSenator Mene´ndez, for what purpose? Senator Mene´ndez:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. Would the gentleman yield for questions? President:iiDo you yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Senator Mene´ndez:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. Thank you, Senator Perry. Dean Whitmire covered many of my questions, so I ll’ just pick up on some of the things that I heard in y all’ s’ exchange. I believe that we should all have a concern over safety of student athletes, but I think that their safety should be our concern on and off the field. And I think that, are you aware that our trans kids are more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety, and commit suicide than their peers? Senator Perry:iiYou know, I ve’ heard that statistic. I heard it as recently as yesterday. I ve’ heard counter statistics to that. So, statistically, I m’ sure you can find studies that show either way, but it doesn t’ matter what the numbers are. Any child, transgender or not, we acknowledge we have mental health challenges. We ve’ also put things in place for those mental health challenges. And any child that faces depression, angst, or anxiety to a point of suicide is a loss for us all. So, I m’ not going to debate whether that s’ a bad thing or not because we all acknowledge that it is. I will tell you, all this A8 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day bill does, it says you can continue to playing competitive athletes under your biological sex. And it protects women and girls athletes that have earned the right to compete with their peer groups on a biological level and know that when they win or when they compete they re’ not running against someone with a biological advantage. That s’ all this does. It reaffirms Title IX and basically supports what current UIL rule is. Senator Mene´ndez:iiSenator, I ve’ read your amendment and you keep referring to protecting women. Yesterday, we had Baylor Bears men s’ basketball team on the floor. Did you have a chance to watch the women s’ NCAA tournament? Senator Perry:iiI probably caught one game. I don t’ have the luxury of seeing much. Senator Mene´ndez:iiI can understand that, but fortunately some on the games were late at night, and I will tell you that in watching many of the women s’ games they were as physically intense, aggressive, combative, if not more than some of the men s’ teams games. And I think it s’ a little bit offensive and I see, I m’ not saying that you re’ being offensive, what I m’ saying is, it s’ a little bit presumptive of us to say that every single girl, biological girl, is less strong or less fast than every biological male. I know, Senator Kolkhorst was a NCAA Division I athlete, and I know she can hit the golf ball further than probably almost, if not every man in this room. So, I don t’ agree with you on the premise that just because their biological birth certificate says they re’ one way or another. The problem that I see, Senator, is that trans kids, they just know they are not what their birth certificate says and that s’ where we re’ creating the problem that we don t’ need to. That s’ the premise, that s’ what I see that s’ wrong with your bill. Last two questions, Senator, it is my concern and I wonder if you share, I guess you don t’ share this concern, but it feels like what s’ you re’ saying is, you don t’ want children who are born or, and defined under their birth certificate to play, forced to play, compete in a sport with other children that don t’ identify that way, but their birth certificate says they re’ the opposite. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiAll this says is, you have to play according to your biological sex. If you re’ a male, you play with males. If you re’ female, you play with females. I m’ not sure I understand where your question s–’ Senator Mene´ndez:iiWell– Senator Perry:ii–going on that, so. Senator Mene´ndez:ii–I guess the question is that the simple premise of a trans children is that their, their complete identity does not match what s’ on their biological birth certificate and what this legislation is trying to codify is that we don t’ care, that we don t’ care how you identify as a person, that we feel it s’ more important to force kids to compete under their biological gender. That s’ what you re’ saying is that– Senator Perry:iiWe re,’ we re’ saying that males should play with males and girls should play with girls or females for safety, number one. I don t’ agree with you at any level that there s’ not, a majority of time, maybe the one-off antidotes where there are those females that exceed at a male level, depending on what age that bracket may be. I think you start seeing that break about junior high where males are putting on body mass. They re’ typically on heavy weight programs if they re’ in competitive athletics. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A9

They start having bone density. They start hitting the puberty areas and they start filling out. Right? And prior to that, there wasn t’ much distinction. In fact, the business, girls and boys do play on most sports up into that level without fear of injury, and some of the girls are actually better. I can tell you my son played with a girl, probably most of his Little League career, and she was as good as catcher as he was until he got to be that 15, 16, big ol ’bulky kid and so. There, the, the statement is not factually accurate is just not true because on the majority, most sides would support males are typically built different, built, built bigger, built body mass, built bone density than a female counterpart. That s’ just the facts. Now, we can argue the one-offs that are exceptions to that, but this is not a one-off bill. This is an, is this where majority, so back to your other point, it s’ not that I m’ not sensitive to where those children are in their thought and why they believe or what they believe they are. I can t’ ignore the underlying fact is that they re’ still at a biological something different than they identify with and in that biological setup, from an athletic competitive sport more than not, they will have competitive advantage over every female counterpart. And that s’ the group of parents that y all’ are ignoring in that conversation. Y all’ are ignoring, y all’ are looking this group that wants to be different, wants to be in this realm because of the way they self-identify. But there s’ a whole lot of kids in this other pool over here going, it s’ not right. So, we, you know, this is the hard decisions we make down here. We try not to make something better at the expense of another. And we re’ faced with those conversations, decisions all the time. This one s’ about a safety issue first, a preservation of tradition and recognition of people that have paid the price with their other peers and those members in that family that support that and want to see that go to fruition without a possibility of someone coming that s’ got an advantage by birth taking that out. As I started out earlier and didn t’ get to finish, we ve’ got one state that s’ facing, it s’ currently in lawsuits and that s’ where this is going to end up. The parents of these children that see their scholarship opportunities move away or have their kids permanently injured are going to start going to the courthouse over these issues, because that s’ where Connecticut s’ at right now. It s’ being challenged. Fifteen state championship, two males, that once were held by nine different girls across the state. Now, that s’ not right for those nine other girls that use to hold those records or held those positions to have two transitioning males come in and take that away. That right there is an argument for they had a competitive advantage. You don t’ win 15 state champions. So, we can either preserve tradition in the UIL and all the things that it does well in this state. We are known around the country for having such a robust high school athletic system that starts in seventh grade. And the recognition of all those athletes that play in that, in their lanes, and continue that integrity of that process and know that Texas will always be that for those reasons, or we can start underpinning, undermining, and hurting female athletes by those guys that get in those fields and do those things and have that issue come up and destroy the complete integrity of a process that s’ been established well in this state that s’ one of marquees programs in the country. Senator Mene´ndez:ii Is there a national trend for trans males who are competing with genetically born females injuring females? Is there, because I hear you say, but you know, you mentioned a second ago that we could find statistics on either side of something when I mentioned anxiety and suicide. And is there evidence that says that A10 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day what you re’ concerned, which I think you re’ right, we all have a concern for student athletes. And, and I have a concern for the whole athlete and so, and I just don t’ think as Dean Whitmire said that this is that big of problem for us to have to interject ourselves. I looked at the witness list. I did not see, and maybe you can correct me, if you are familiar with, was there one person from the UIL or a school district or a coach that testified for the bill? I didn t’ see that. I just, I was reading through– Senator Perry:iiWell– Senator Mene´ndez:ii–and I couldn t’ see everybody who was registered– Senator Perry:ii–UIL s’ a state agency. It has to be on the bill. Senator Mene´ndez:ii–on the bill. Senator Perry:iiI think there were some that were for the bill. I don t’ look to that as saying that that s’ a decision, ultimate decision maker for me. It s’ on the principle of preserving what we know to be a safety factor. You can t’ ignore it. As far as statistically, I m’ sure I ll’ go dig those out if you need to. There are examples of that. In my office today, I know of one person that says their niece was injured on the field by a female counterpart, I mean by a male counterpart on a soccer field. Senator Mene´ndez:iiI appreciate your patience with the questions– Senator Perry:iiSure. Senator Mene´ndez:ii–and I know that we share a mutual concern, and, and I think the concern, for our student athletes, for the whole athlete as well, and I appreciate your time. Thank you, Mr.iPresident. Thank you, Senator. President:iiThank you, Senator Mene´ndez. Senator Lucio, for what purpose? Senator Lucio:iiWill the gentleman yield? President:iiDo you yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Yes, Sir. Senator Lucio:iiOkay, trying to take a deep breath here, taking it all in. You make a good case for you bill, Senator. And I m’ going to talk from both sides of my mouth because it mirrors consideration on both sides. They re’ still talking about how I voted for the bathroom bill. Certain people hate me for that because I listened to what people called straight women asking me to please not allow biological men dressed as women to go into their bathroom. So, my position there was to make sure that every human being had a bathroom when he or she needed it. Have you heard of a young lady by the name of Michelle Wie? Senator Perry:iiNo, Sir. Senator Lucio:iiMichelle Wie, professional golfer, I know that Chairman Kolkhorst knows who she is, at the age of 18, 19 was beating up on even the boys competing. There s’ certain sports that I, that are non-contact that possibly this works out. You know, chess, one-act play, debate, ballroom dancing, maybe basketball, but I don t’ think so because it s’ a contact sport, and I have a granddaughter that I would not want to get beat up. But let s’ turn it around. Because people don t’ understand, we re’ putting some people on harm s’ way here, children in harm s’ way. We really are. And you take Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A11 a biological young lady who identifies herself as a male and wants to play, I can imagine in some areas of the state where she d’ be in dire trouble and probably get beat up somewhere along the line, lose an eye, broken arm, whatever the case may be. God forbid, but I would hate to be here and vote for something or vote against something that would create something like that, something awful where people get sick. I believe, quite frankly, that this issue belongs at the local level, and let me tell you why. We gave people an opportunity yesterday to go out and vote on a public referendum and we ve’ done that many, many years when we meet, you know, in this Chamber. People have the right to vote on certain issues, and I think local school boards are elected to make decisions at the local level in everything, curriculum, sports, everything, along with funding. And I think they should be working with UIL. Local board, local board should be working with UIL officials and others who know about these sports and possibly could draw up the rules and let the local citizens decide. I don t,’ I really feel that people should come to the table and say, this is why I think and the next one, this is what I think and then we ll’ vote and let the majority in that community decide what to do. That s’ what I really feel we should be doing, but I appreciate the fact that safety comes into play and that is a big issue. I just can t’ see somebody, I think Senator Mene´ndez talked about, talked about basketball. The best of the best in this country, 6 7",’ 6 9",’ or even a 6-footer who can dunk the ball and kick away can beat any women s’ team in this country that are the best of the best. There s’ no comparison when we compare the ability because of gender, in my book anyway. I just feel that they deserve a right to have that opportunity in every community that they play in, and I really feel that the people should go to the polls to decide what their community is going to be in favor of. I thank you, for– Senator Perry:iiAnd I thank– Senator Lucio:ii–your– Senator Perry:ii–you for that, Senator Lucio. President:iiSenator Eckhardt, for what purpose? Senator Eckhardt:iiTo ask questions of the author. President:iiYou re’ recognized. Do you– Senator Perry:iiI yield. President:ii–yield, Senator Perry? Senator Perry:iiAbsolutely. Senator Eckhardt:iiThis is a bit of a, a personal issue for me. I m’ a tall woman with a very competitive attitude, and I ve’ been mistaken for a man more often than I care to count. I ve’ also been accused of being transgender with the intention of wounding me and suggesting that I didn t’ belong in the position that I was in. And so, I wonder with regard to this bill, how under this bill would we handle a circumstance where a parent sees another child competing with this parent s’ child who is taller, faster, stronger, and perhaps more athletically talented, and this parent says, I think that girl s’ transgender, and I think that she beat my daughter out of a scholarship or out of a place on the team and so I want confirmation that that big, tall, fast, talented athlete was a girl at birth. How do we handle that? A12 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:iiSo, nothing changes. Today, that s’ handled by one, there has to be a challenge. Right? So, once that challenge is sued, it s’ reported to the UIL. UIL then will host their hearings, I think there s’ hearings in some vetting and process and their documents presented to the contrary. That s’ today s’ policy. Senate Bill 29 doesn t’ change today s’ policy. Senator Eckhardt:iiMy understanding– Senator Perry:iiSo, the way it s’ handled today or after Senate Bill 29, if it s’ passed, is no different. Senator Eckhardt:ii–I was under the impression and perhaps I m’ wrong, that UIL goes on the current birth certificate. Senator Perry:iiThat s’ correct, and I have made that, distinguished that. The difference in this and the UIL rules currently today is its, picks up at or near birth rather than just the current one. Because the current one can be modified. The current birth certificate can by modified. So, this puts it back to where there s’ a verifiable document for biological sex. Senator Eckhardt:iiSo, I m’ a little confused and I want to make sure I fully understand your amendment. Senator Perry:iiOh, okay. Senator Eckhardt:iiDoes your amendment allow a individual who was born female, but has transitioned and has an amended birth certificate that says they are, I m’ sorry, born male, but has transitioned and now has an amended birth certificate reflecting female to participate in team sports? Senator Perry:iiNo, the heart of the bill is this, today, UIL will ask for a birth certificate. It is the current birth certificate that could have been amended for a transitioning person. Under this bill, the, the real change from a current UIL to this bill is it will be a birth certificate at birth or original. The amended no longer will be the acceptable document from the UIL. So, that s–’ Senator Eckhardt:iiSo, it is more stringent then the UIL requirement. Senator Perry:iiOn that respect, with the birth certificate, the amendment, the, really the reason for the amendment was, we will have kids that don t’ have access to a birth certificate. They could have came in, they could ve’ been undocumented kids that are in our public school systems that are playing athletics and they may not have access to that. So, some other government record that identifies their biological sex at birth is acceptable. It doesn t’ have to be the birth certificate. Some of these kids, as we see, they re’ just coming over with, you know, a suitcase in hand, hopefully, and a hat. They may not have their birth certificate in that and may not know where to go back or can get it. So, that s’ what the amendment s’ purpose is, is to allow one more verifiable, which is consisted with where UIL is today. We didn t’ describe what that government record has to be because they ve’ already got a list and processes to go through if that birth certificate is not available. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A13

Senator Eckhardt:iiSo, I just want to be absolutely clear here, for me. This means, this bill means that a child who is transgendered may not play scholastics sports with their current gender. Senator Perry:iiThis bill says you will play at your biological sex sport. So, if you re’ a male, you ll’ play with other males, biological sex, or if you re’ a female, you will play with your female. So, you re’ correct, but that s’ the intent of the bill. Senator Eckhardt:iiSo, this is– Senator Perry:iiFor all of the things that we ve’ talked about already, competitive advantages, safety, integrity of the process that we hold near and dear to our heart, competitive, all the people that pay the price to get to that level only to have it stole, so the, the significant change, it does mirror UIL, would be that the birth certificate is at or as close to birth. We have those situations at birth, two full sets of sex organs. Right? You don t’ know which one you re’ going to be. It takes a little time for a doctor and family to consult to figure that right out. Those, those are why it s’ at or near birth. Senator Eckhardt:iiI was hoping that the amendment had softened that, but through these questions, I believe this is still the, the bathroom bill of sports. Senator Perry:iiAnd I know, and, and I love the way people monopolize on a term and take over a bill and put it out there in the press. I haven t’ talked about where girls are going to go to the bathroom or men, either one. This is about protecting female athletes and recognizing their accomplishments within their biological peer group, consistent with Title IX since 1973. I don t’ see any reason, if this is not a big issue and a big push across the state, then this shouldn t’ be a problem for anybody. But these are changing times, and we re’ at a crossroads and it may get changed, you know. Title IX goes away tomorrow, none of this matters, but it ll’ be a sad day when we lose our identity and lose the historical context and have comparability going forward. But I have families that are legitimately concerned about a biological male playing, as Senator Lucio said, in a competitive contact sport and doing bodily injury permanently. I m’ sitting on three screws in a knee and three surgeries and I permanently have a knee injury. I don t’ want my daughter or anybody else subjected to that unnecessarily by having a competitive athlete on the field with them that far outweighs their physical capacity to compete with them. Senator Eckhardt:iiAnd, and I appreciate that, that concern for us women, but I will tell you it harkens back to people telling me, Sarah, why don t’ you not run for political office, it s’ too rough and tumble. Why don t’ you stay where you are and help the guys? And I ve,’ I ve–’ Senator Perry:iiBut– Senator Eckhardt:ii–I couldn t’ do that. Senator Perry:ii–no disrespect, but that s’ not an adequate comparison when you re’ talking about a 250-pound male running at a 4.5 40 and you weigh a whopping 150. There s’ a little bit different context than sitting on a floor and having a debate without contact. Secondly, all the other issues raised, and I do recognize that we live in a society that sometimes is unfair to individuals that are different, I get that. I ll’ be the first to tell you I ve’ probably been not as sensitive as I should have, and I regret that A14 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day but I try to make every effort. So, if a kid is ostracized, set apart, made fun of, we have as a Legislature since day one, the bullying bill, Senfronia Thompson over in the House. From that day, I think it was Senfronia, but I mean we have done and there are systems in place to prevent those kids from feeling that way and if they truly feel that way because somebody s’ doing it, there are repercussions for doing that today. Again, this bill, this bill s’ really simple bill and it takes what UIL s’ doing, tightens it up so that the objective of making sure females play with females and males play with males for safety, integrity, and competitiveness and to maintain to where everybody knows that they ve’ got a level playing field is what Senate Bill 29 is about. It s’ about preserving women athletes on a safety and competitive level. Senator Eckhardt:iiThe daughter of a good friend who used to be the Land Commissioner of the State of Texas, as a matter of fact, played on the varsity football team at Austin High. Would we presume after this that she was transgendered because she was playing on the football team? Senator Perry:iiI make no presumptions. I make no presumptions. If the, if the child, if a female can play on a male field, it doesn t’ change that. Under Title IX that s’ allowed. In UIL that s’ allowed. That child can do that. If that child competes with the males, that s’ great. That s’ not the majority, if we re’ honest. But whoever presumes or what people presume, I don t’ control. I mean, I wish people wouldn t’ make those presumptions, but if a parent challenged that, the process of how they rectify the challenge does not change in Senate Bill 29. Senator Eckhardt:iiThank you. President:iiSenator Johnson, for what purpose? Senator Johnson:iiQuestions of the author, and I realize we ’re still on the amendment, but it seems like we re’ just going to get all this done, so, I ll’ keep it going. President:iiYou re,’ you re’ recognized. Do you yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Senator Johnson:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. And, Senator Perry, I wouldn t’ turn my light on if I liked the bill. You know, I don t’ like the bill, but I do want to start by recognizing that before we even got here, you did make one change to this bill that I respect. I think in the original draft, I think it banned any transgender child from participating in a sport and you changed that to compete. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Johnson:iiAnd what was the reason for that change? Senator Perry:iiThe, the reason for that is currently, I m’ told, and it happens but like a practice, you may have a situation where female track are running with male track, you know, individual sports basically, but they re’ in that level just for practice purposes, so we didn t’ want to get to where a practice couldn t’ be where that could occur. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A15

Senator Johnson:iiAnd you recognize the importance of sports in a young person s’ life and, and I was presuming from this change that you wanted to recognize that at some level you would ve’ like these transgender kids to be able to be at least be out there with the team even if you re’ not going to let them play in a game or compete in the meet. Right? Senator Perry:iiWell, in that scenario if they re’ practicing I would have still think the biological male would be with the biological male group– Senator Johnson:iiOkay. Senator Perry:ii–and the biological female would be that. It s’ not going to prevent, but I would think following logic through if you re’ going to go to the football field on Friday night, then you would have to make that pairing under this, so you re’ going to be practicing with your peer group on a biological sex level. Senator Johnson:iiOkay. Well, there s’ a, three areas I want to ask you about including safety, including biological identity, and then the level of threat here. So, let s’ start with something that you said in colloquy with a couple of my colleagues here. You referred to transgender kids as a group of people who, and this is quote, I think, want to be different, who self-identify as another gender. Do you think this is a choice to be transgender? Senator Perry:iiThat s’ not the purpose of the bill. I ve’ been clear what the purpose of the bill. I m’ not a scientist, and I m’ not a medical expert, but y all’ have used the term they self-identify. That s’ a term that you and your other colleagues have had, so I have decided on this. I can t’ change what they believe. Senator Johnson:iiAnd, well, the importance of that distinction, because you were, someone also was talking to you about levels of depression and suicide. And I know you re’ familiar with some statistics and you may not believe them at the same level that I do, but you are concerned about children who are depressed and you certainly don t’ want them to be suicidal. But if you, in fact, didn t’ just decide to get attention and be transgender, but biologically there s’ something historically you didn t’ recognize that really exists in a person and they biologically are in a male body, but they feel like a female, it affects their thinking. Right? And if they can t’ participate in a sport with who they see themselves, every day they wake up they feel worse and worse and worse, and the whole world is telling them, you can t’ be who you really are, and it causes damage. And I recognize that you see damage on the other side and then to be honest, I do, too. I understand these sports concerns. I understand the competitiveness, but we re’ going to have to weigh these harms, like you said. So, let s’ weigh some of those harms. We ve’ already said that there are no instances presently of transgender kids competing in sports in Texas. Is that– Senator Perry:iiNo, you said we re’ not, we don t’ know because the current system, we wouldn t’ know. Senator Johnson:ii–do you, have you heard anybody suspect that any individual track or swimming medals are held by transgender athletes? A16 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:iiAgain, I wouldn t’ know if there were transgender in the public school systems in Texas based on the criteria that they re’ accepted in and no challenge. This only comes up if a parent challenges or somebody– Senator Johnson:iiSo, so– Senator Perry:ii–in the district challenges. Senator Johnson:ii–I do want to talk about that, too. But I guess since we don t’ know about it, doesn t’ seem to be there s’ a problem in Texas right now. Would you agree? Senator Perry:iiWould you agree that we make bills to prevent problems ahead of time in this Legislature all the time? Senator Johnson:iiI will, if you ll’ answer my question. Would you agree that there doesn t’ appear to be– Senator Perry:iiI can t’ speak– Senator Johnson:ii–a problem right now. Senator Perry:ii–to what the magnitude of the problem is because we haven t’ tracked the magnitude of the problem. Senator Johnson:ii Well, it just seems that I m,’ personally, I ve’ looked, I can t’ find an instance of anybody finding anything objectionable going on in this fear in Texas. But I recognize you trying to plan ahead. Right? Senator Perry:iiI can tell you when this bill was filed, I had countless people going thank you, my daughter deserves the opportunity to compete with other girls. Senator Johnson:iiI don t’ doubt it and it s’ a tough issue and I have some very conservative friends who are going to be disappointed that I m’ at the microphone right now. I understand the feelings there, but I think we do need to, you know, keep in perspective what it is we re’ talking about. So, I wanted to look outside Texas. Do you know how many transgender kids they have playing sports in North Carolina in the past two years? Senator Perry:iiI m,’ I live in Texas. Senator Johnson:iiTen. In Michigan, two or fewer per year. In Washington, they ve’ had three since 2008. California, you know, being California, they ve’ had this legal for a couple of decades. There s’ never been an issue of a transgender kid– Senator Perry:iiI ve–’ Senator Johnson:ii–dominating in any sport. Senator Perry:ii–and I m’ going to throw this back that we would understand California wouldn t’ track this. Senator Johnson:iiOh, they do track it. Senator Perry:iiI, and again, we can talk about numbers– Senator Johnson:iiThey re’ proud of it. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A17

Senator Perry:ii–here s’ the bottom line, Senate Bill 29 takes UIL, as it s’ currently read, tweaks the birth certificate requirement so that there s’ clearly a biological connection to that individual. That is what it does. It does it for this reason and this reason alone. The number one reason we exist as a elected official from a local level all the way up and down is public safety for the most part. Senator Johnson:iiAlright. Senator Perry:iiEverything we do is about public safety. Senator Johnson:iiLet s’ talk about public safety. You ever heard of Lionel Messi? Senator Perry:iiI have not. Senator Johnson:iiHe s’ an Argentine soccer player. He s’ one of the best soccer players in the world and he s’ tiny, and when he played in the junior league he was a lot tinier, and he went and told the other players, this guy s’ really good, just don t’ break him. I don t’ want you to be careful and the coach said, don t,’ no, the player said, don t’ worry, coach, we can t’ catch him. Alright, we ve’ had small people playing with big people forever. Spud Webb was a hero of mine when I was a short high school freshman, alright, played in the NBA. Remember that guy? He was like 5 6"’ playing against guys who were 7 feet tall. He didn t’ get crushed. If we re’ really worried about public safety in high school sports, we d’ probably ban football, but we love football. It s’ a risk. We wear helmets and stuff. I mean, I know you had a girl in your office that got knocked down by a big kid, but I got creamed by kids on the field all the time. But most of the injuries among my soccer friends was because they pulled a hamstring or broke an ankle, but it wasn t’ because someone large knocked them over. So, are we really worried about girls playing sports? It seems a little bit condescending. Senator Perry:iiNo, I m’ sincerely worried about female athletes paired with their counterparts, male, that are 50 to 100 pounds heavier– Senator Johnson:iiRight. Senator Perry:ii–and faster– Senator Johnson:iiAlright, so– Senator Perry:ii–and that s’ where it could go and will go if we don t’ stop this momentum of this, of this process that we re’ on. Senator Johnson:ii–will it be– Senator Perry:iiBecause if you don t,’ if you don t’ do it, then what are you going to say to the parent that did have that instance happen? Oh well, we chose not to, to– Senator Johnson:ii–well, we– Senator Perry:ii–put guardrails around it. Senator Johnson:ii–we take risks with our kids all the time– Senator Perry:iiOkay. Senator Johnson:ii–we have to. You mentioned your son who was a great baseball player. We ve’ talked about him before and he had a girlfriend of his when he was younger and they were the same, and he got bigger and became better because males A18 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day have a biological advantage. But have any kid at 15-16 transitioning to be a female, they re’ not going to be 250. They re’ transitioning. Those hormones are, those, those metabolic systems, those male hormones that cause you to bulk up, it s’ out of their system. I understand there s’ permanent bone density, possibly cardiovascular system, VO2 max, things that science is looking at. I get it, but you re’ not going to have a lineman in there playing basketball– Senator Perry:iiWe, we don t–’ Senator Johnson:ii–with the girls team, crushing them– Senator Perry:ii–we don t’ know, but I would say it this way– Senator Johnson:ii–we do know. They re’ transitioned. Senator Perry:ii–yeah, but, well, what level? Did they just start today? They still got all the male characteristics, and they come in and say I started by puberty blocker today, but I m’ still already quarter in the puberty. Did I start today with my cross-sex? That s’ really– Senator Johnson:iiWell, it seems unlikely, though, and so, here s’ the deal– Senator Perry:ii–you know, the small kids can choose to play or not play. When they choose to play, as you say, they take on that risk. Girl athletes today, don t’ get to say, well, they do get to say through UIL that you can t’ play on here if you re’ a male biologically. This just reaffirms that. Senator Johnson:iiSo, the examples that I can compete if I want to because I ve’ got the body mass to do if I m’ female or if I m’ a transgendering male to a female. Senator Perry:iiThe other side of that equation didn t’ buy into that. They signed up for female athletes against female athletes. So, it s’ a little disingenuous to say, I should just allow that to happen because this other group of impacted people didn t’ have a voice in that. Their voice– Senator Johnson:iiNo– Senator Perry:ii–is UIL says you don t’ do it today. Senator Johnson:ii–it s’ not disingenuous and I ve’ gotten in trouble for my choice of words before. There s’ nothing about this that s’ disingenuous, and I know you don t’ mean any disrespect, but I get you don t’ buy my argument. I appreciate that. But, what we re’ talking about is a hypothetical risk that we re’ going to see any meaningful increase of transgender participation of dominant sports players and they re’ going to have, they re’ going to start playing contact sports the day they start their transition after they ve’ already hit 250. I think that, while it s’ theoretically possible, it seems far less likely than what we do know, which is that we have trans kids who commit suicide or just feel awful because we do stuff like this and, and while I m’ sympathetic to the desire for a girl who s’ been training with a team since she s’ 10 years old to win that title and she gets beat by somebody who had a biological advantage, it doesn t’ feel fair. There s’ lots of unfair stuff in life– Senator Perry:iiAnd so, what– Senator Johnson:ii–and I m’ wondering about– Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A19

Senator Perry:ii–do you do– Senator Johnson:iiLet me just finish this sentence. I m’ wondering about weighing the risk of that happening, which hasn ’t happened in anywhere other than Connecticut, against the very certainty that we re’ going to cause damage to a lot of kids and their families. Senator Perry:iiSo, what do you do with that 10-year-old that s’ invested their 12 years. They get to that level of competition and that transgendered male competes and wins and she goes off depressed, anxiety and commits suicide, because her whole identity in that case was built on the premise she was going to play at the next level and the next level and the next level– Senator Johnson:iiAnd you told– Senator Perry:ii–but in the record books today, it s’ going to have this other person s’ name that biologically she couldn t’ have competed with. Senator Johnson:ii–if she just won the state title, she s’ probably going to run in college. Don t’ you think? It ain t’ over. Senator Perry:iiYou know what, I can t’ answer that because our college ranks of the NCAA controls that. Senator Johnson:iiSo, you and I could spin hypotheticals back and forth– Senator Perry:iiYup– Senator Johnson:ii–but again– Senator Perry:ii–exactly. Senator Johnson:ii–I m’ going to what s’ certain versus what s’ extremely unlikely. Last point, you know parents can be pretty cruel at sporting events, and Senator Eckhardt brought up the point that there s’ going to be kids who aren t’ transgender, in whether male or female, they have visible characteristics that make them look like something else. I m’ a little worried that once we make this a big state policy and we ve’ announced to everybody that this is how we feel about it, parents are going to feel emboldened to be yelling all kinds of awful stuff at kids, who we really don t’ want to be subjected to that kind of stuff. Are we going to create maybe a new penalty class for those parents? Senator Perry:iiSo, nothing s’ going to change the way parents act at sports. I can tell you, growing up– Senator Johnson:iiThis will– Senator Perry:ii–no, I don t’ think so. I think you have to give adults more credit than that, but you remember we usually judge the entire group based on one idiot. The one idiot s’ going to do whatever it is regardless of Senate Bill 29. So, I don t’ think it s’ going to be that, just like you would say this is not going to be opening Pandora s’ box to all these problems that we haven t’ got yet. I can argue I don t’ think you re’ going to see these issues that you think are going to happen. Senator Johnson:iiYou could and you re’ going to win this vote, so I hope you re’ right and I m’ wrong. A20 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:iiI do, too. Senator Johnson:iiBut, pardon the pause. I think we spend a lot of time anticipating things that aren t’ going to happen because they happened once somewhere, and if this becomes a real problem, there might be a more subtle way we can handle it. So, what I would rather see us do is not pass this bill and maybe sit down and have a conversation in the interim, look at some statistics, talk to parents, talk to families. Is, is there some way we cannot crush the dreams of that girl who s’ been training since she was 10 and not make these kids feel just awful to the point where they withdraw from society or worse, and I think we ought to take this a little slower. I think we have time. Nationwide we ve’ got two kids in one state running track. That s’ it. Not a single injury. Not a state title. Not any problem at all. And we re’ sending this really, really risky, I would say mean, even though you, I don t’ think you mean to be mean. It s,’ it s’ going to feel, I know you don t’ mean to be mean, but it s’ going to feel that way to them. Why don t’ we slow this down? Why don t’ we talk about it for a year? Senator Perry:iiAnd, and I respect where you re’ at with that, but those 15 state champions that used to be owned by women, they don t’ get to rewrite the record books and have that back in their court. So, on that level, you don t’ get to undo the past. Senator Johnson:iiNo, it s’ just not as sad to me as a dead kid. Senator Perry:iiIt, and so, on that we don t’ get to redraft. Where these go today is, is going to be in the courthouse. That s’ where those are. Parents had their bellyful. Senator Johnson:iiWe ll’ probably be there either way. Senator Perry:iiAnd, and so– Senator Johnson:iiI appreciate the discussion. President:iiSenator Kolkhorst, for what purpose? Senator Kolkhorst:iiI rise to ask questions of the author of the bill. President:iiSenator Perry, do you yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSenator Perry, do you remember June of 1972? Senator Perry:iiI do not. Senator Kolkhorst:iiYou don t?’ Senator Perry:iiI was, let s’ see, I would be 10 years old at that point. I do remember 72–’ President:iiSenator Kolkhorst, can you speak up a little bit? Hold the mic– Senator Perry:ii–we had– Senator Kolkhorst:iiYeah, I asked Senator Perry if he remembers where he was or what he was doing in June of 1972. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A21

Senator Perry:ii–I got to say, that was about the time the Vietnam War was coming over, I mean closing down, and they were coming back and we had gas rationing. So, I think it was around in that time, but on that day I can t’ tell you what I was doing. Senator Kolkhorst:iiWell, I do know what I was doing. I was in Brenham, Texas, and I was blessed by the Lord to be a pretty good athlete. But I really had no way to perform, if you really want to know the truth about it. I loved baseball, I loved the sport of baseball. And I wasn t’ allowed to play baseball because there was no opportunity to play baseball for a girl. And so, when my brother was playing his Little League games, I d’ take the Coke cups–you all remember the little Coke cups before we had Styrofoam–and I d’ ball them up and I d’ go out there and I d’ play hand Coke. Okay? You know what happened in June of 1972? Senator Perry:iiWas that Title IX? Senator Kolkhorst:iiTitle IX was passed. And I had this extraordinary experience that the local radio station called because the local radio station owner watched me play baseball with those Coke cups while my brother was playing his baseball games. And he wanted to talk to little Lois on the radio. My mother, very protective, asked him, now, what do you want to talk to her about? And he said, well, there s’ something that just passed in the United States Congress that I think is going to impact her life in a huge way. And that s’ why I know where I was in June of 1972. And he interviewed me about the opportunity to get to play sports. Because in 1972, a Congressman, Representative Patsy Mink, a Democrat, helped by Representative Edith Mart, Edith Green, a Democrat, helped by Senator Birch Bayh, a Democrat, passed Title IX in the United States of America. And I will tell you right now, I am standing on the Senate floor as only the 17th woman in the history of the State of Texas since 1845, I m’ standing on this floor because of Title IX. Now that s’ a bit of a stretch, and you say to me, why, why Title IX? What did that do for you? Because I can tell you what it did for me. You know what happened right after that call, Senator Perry? I hung up, my dad, I hung up that phone call, I remember right where I was standing in my house, and my mother looked at Robert A. Winkelmann, Robert Andrew Winkelmann, she called him Robert A., and said, Robert A., you are going to get together with the rest of the fathers and you re’ going to create a softball league for little Lois to play in. You know why she said that? Because she said, my little girl is not going to play baseball with the boys even though the law says that she can. And Robert A. Winkelmann called, great guy, Walter Schwartz, former Chancellor of Blinn College, President of Blinn College, and said, we need to do something for our daughters. And they created the softball league in Brenham, Texas. Do you know why I did not play softball in college? I played golf instead, because Brenham High School did not have a softball program, and so I had to find a sport that I could compete in. And quite honestly, Senator Lucio, golf wasn t’ my favorite, it wasn t’ my favorite. But it was what I could play, that and basketball is what I could play in high school, and run a little bit of track. And that s’ what I did, although my heart was always with softball. I loved Johnny Bench, and I was a catcher, and that s’ what I wanted to be and that s’ all I ever wanted to do. But I couldn t’ do it because my high school didn t’ offer softball. It does today, and I m’ real proud of that. Brenham Cubettes are having a good season. I want to ask you, Senator Perry, do you know the name of a girl named Selina Soule? A22 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:iiI do not. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSelina Soule is a girl in Connecticut, and I bet she grew up not much unlike me, dreaming of competing for her high school. And I ll’ tell y all,’ y all’ saw me last night, Senator Eckhardt, we had dinner with some other lady females, and I was a bit distracted. Why? Because I was watching Jake Kolkhorst play baseball on my phone. I mean, thank goodness for A&M Consolidated for having some link that I could pay $10 for and see Jake play, otherwise I d’ have missed that game. Everybody dreams of being a state champion, having that gold medal hang around your neck. My goodness, I just want to tell y all,’ it was a goal all my life, and I accomplished it my senior year. And I ll’ be honest with you, I choked my sophomore and my junior year. Just choked, choked at those state tournaments. And my dad was killed in a car wreck when I was 16, and he never saw me go on to win that state championship. In fact, the last state championship, do you know what he saw, Senator Perry? The last state championship I played in, which was my freshman year, you know what the last, he saw me shoot a 90-something, Senator Lucio, and on number 10 at the Jimmy Clay Golf Course, I don t’ know why that lake to the left, I don t’ know why, but I could pull hook a golf ball into that lake as good as anyone could ever see. And he and I had worked on that, little Lois, when you come to that number 10, you are just going to push that ball as far right as you can. And I ll’ never forget this, one of my last memories of my dad, I teed that ball up, we had, and y all’ aren t’ going to believe this, but I duck hooked that ball into the tank. And he literally fell off the bench and was on all fours going, I can t’ believe, yelling, she did that. Those are the things that high school sports are made of, great memories. I m’ sorry that my dad didn t’ get to see me wear that gold, that gold medallion that I still have to this day. Gosh, there would be nothing more that I would love than the Brenham Cubs to win a state championship in baseball this year. Right? But here s’ my question, you know who Selina Soule is? She s’ a little girl just like Lois Kolkhorst. And do you know what happened to her in Connecticut? She did not qualify for that state championship because she was beat out by two people that had transitioned, transitioned to become females. Senator Whitmire asked if you d’ ever talked to a transgender person. There s’ no secret on this floor, I carried what y all’ refer to as the bathroom bill, and what I refer to as the privacy act. Do y all’ remember, do you remember that bill? Now, do you remember the bill that I introduced in the special session? It was different than the one I carried, you don t’ remember that. Do you know why, because I added sports to it. Because, and I argued with the President of the Senate that that s’ where my heart was, that was where my real heart was. Now, I want to tell you something, Senator Miles, I love that you sent me yellow roses the day I was going to lay that out and that s’ why we re’ such good friends, because you knew that you had to ask me tough questions and you knew that I had to carry what some term as maybe one of the most controversial bills ever seen in this Chamber. It never became law, did it? It did not. But it certainly raised a lot of awareness, wouldn t’ you say? Raised a lot of awareness, and I will tell y all’ that I grew from that process. I learned from transgender people just what I just said there. They re’ not transgenders, they re’ transgender people because, Senator Johnson, they are people, and they are people with feelings. And this is some of the toughest stuff that we do, Senator Mene´ndez, and what I love about the Texas Senate is that we can be on different sides, and in the end, Senator Eckhardt, we can break Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A23 bread together. And so, I guess what I m’ asking today is that, Senator Perry, what you re’ putting in statute in Senate Bill 29, is it any different than what the UIL has in rule right now? Senator Perry:iiIt s’ exactly what UIL does with one exception on the birth certificate requirement that it s’ at, on your birth. Senator Kolkhorst:iiAnd so, there s’ been a lot of argument on the floor, hey, do we really have an issue here in Texas? Have we seen huge issues with this yet in Texas? Senator Perry:iiI think "yet" is the operable word. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSay that again. Senator Perry:ii"Yet" is the operable word. Senator Kolkhorst:iiRight. Why? Because we have a rule. The UIL has chosen to have a rule. Who s’ on the UIL, what is the UIL, who is the UIL? You know, I kind of ask that sometimes because I don t’ always agree with them. I don t’ always agree, I don t’ always agree that The University of Texas should own the UIL. You know, that s’ a little interesting fact that they house the UIL. But I m’ okay with that, after I learned. But who is the UIL? The UIL consists of mostly superintendents. Senator Perry:iiSuperintendents, retired superintendents, other coaches, those people. But most retired superintendents serve on the UIL level if they have the aptitude for it. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSo, have you ever heard of the Women s’ Liberation Front, Senator Perry? Senator Perry:iiYes, Ma am.’ Senator Kolkhorst:iiHuh? Senator Perry:iiYes, Ma am.’ Senator Kolkhorst:iiYou have? Senator Perry:iiYes, I have heard of it. Senator Kolkhorst:iiHave you ever heard of the Concerned Women for America? Senator Perry:iiYes, Ma am.’ Senator Kolkhorst:iiAnd so, one s’ very left group and one s’ very right group. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiThat s’ correct. Senator Kolkhorst:iiWhat s’ the one issue they ve’ come together on? Senator Perry:iiWomen s’ sports. Senator Kolkhorst:iiThey have, they have. Google it. It s’ really interesting to see how they feel about this. Because I believe that this is the women s’ rights issue of our time. I really do. Now, Senator Johnson, you mentioned condescending, now you were being condescending to women, no, no. We re’ not being condescending to women. I love women s’ sports. You know I, I love women s’ basketball. There are not many women that can dunk, but I still think that it has value. Senator Mene´ndez, you A24 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day said that I could outdrive most of the men, you re’ right. I probably can outdrive most of you, but that s’ because y all’ don t’ play golf very regularly. And you didn t’ spend the hours that I did practicing, I have a slight advantage there. But overall, if given the same thing, our physiological stature is slightly different, is that– Senator Perry:iiGod made us unique, and male and female are very distinctly for different reasons. Senator Kolkhorst:iiLung capacity, is it different? Senator Perry:iiYes. Senator Kolkhorst:iiI think when we re’ striking this balance in sports, we have to be really careful. Let me ask you this question, is Little League in different sports, even in swim leagues, or are people divided by age, girls and boys divided by age in select sports until you get to high school? Senator Perry:iiIn select sports, you don t’ have the coed, at least my kids did not play in coed sports at select level. Senator Kolkhorst:iiNot in coed sports, but just, there s’ a reason– Senator Perry:iiYes, by age group. Senator Kolkhorst:ii–we do sports at different ages. Right? Senator Perry:iiYes, that s’ correct. Senator Kolkhorst:iiAn 18-year-old athlete is different than a 12-year-old athlete. Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSo, we have different protections and we separate sports all the time. Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Kolkhorst:iiAnd some of that is for protection, and some of that is for competiveness. If I took a 12-year-old girl today and put her on a team with senior softball players at a high school, she probably wouldn t’ compete very well. Right? Senator Perry:iiDiscouragement. Senator Kolkhorst:iiIt would be discouraged. Right? She would be discouraged. And so, I think that we have these different separations in sports for a reason, some of it s’ protection, some of it s’ competiveness. And I think that, do you agree that might be applicable with what you re’ trying to strike a balance of? Senator Perry:iiI think it s’ consistent with where UIL is today. UIL regulates seventh grade up. Senator Kolkhorst:iiWell, I will just say this. It is, this is very personal to me. It is extremely personal to me. It is one of the things that I have spent my whole life, I love sports, I competed for it, I dreamed for it, I wanted to win that state championship, I wanted to be a college athlete, and I attained that. I wanted to be an Olympic athlete for the United States of America, and you know what, I just wasn t’ good enough. I just wasn t’ good enough. I wasn t’ fast enough in track and they didn t’ offer golf. But I Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A25 just have to ask you this in closing, do you think that the Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 29 preserves the dreams of lots of little girls that think that one day they might be a state champion in Texas UIL sports? Senator Perry:iiAbsolutely, and gives those parents a path to hopefully make that happen. Senator Kolkhorst:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. Secretary of the Senate:iiFloor Amendment No. 2 by Eckhardt. President:iiSenator Eckhardt, you re’ recognized. Senator Eckhardt:iiThis amendment strikes the provision that relates to the biological sex marker determined at the student s’ birth. I am concerned that students with amended birth certificates will be negatively harmed by this bill by being subject to intense scrutiny. This amendment would also align with University Interscholastic League rules, which determine gender based on birth certificate, current birth certificate with no reference to timeframe, actually, without any reference current or otherwise. There are many reasons a kid may have an amended birth certificate, if they were adopted, if they take the last name of a stepparent or other scenarios. New birth certificates do not come with a note saying why they were amended. You cannot determine that a student is trans just because they have an amended birth certificate. How would schools enforce this legislation? For this reason, I propose striking the provision that delineates what kind of birth certificate is acceptable so that schools may use the state-issued birth certificate that are turned in to them by the student s’ family without time and resources playing detective. President:iiSenator Mene´ndez, you re’ a Co-author on the amendment? Senator Mene´ndez:iiYes, Mr.iPresident. I just, quick question of the author of the amendment. President:iiDo you yield? Senator Eckhardt:iiI do. Senator Mene´ndez:iiSo, Senator Eckhardt, what you re’ proposing is an amendment that simply would say, potentially, a child goes to enroll in softball as Senator Kolkhorst brought up. And this child presents, and maybe the child has been working out, maybe taking some hormones, and maybe doesn t,’ maybe the person, the coach or whoever is saying, well, birth certificate says here, I m’ not sure I believe this. And you re’ saying it doesn t’ matter what you believe, this is what the birth certificate says. Is that what you re’ saying? Senator Eckhardt:iiThat s’ correct. That if the student-athlete presents their birth certificate, that s’ their birth certificate. Senator Mene´ndez:iiMakes sense. Sounds like a pretty common sense amendment. Thank you for the amendment. President:iiSenator Perry, on the amendment. A26 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:iiSo, I m’ going to oppose the amendment. It would actually gut the bill and remove the intended objective. Secondly, for clerical errors this, this doesn t’ apply. We do allow a corrected for a clerical error, so if there was some clerical change on it, but I will oppose the amendment respectfully. Secretary of the Senate:iiFloor Amendment No. 3 by Mene´ndez. President:iiSenator Mene´ndez, on your amendment. Senator Mene´ndez:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. This particular amendment is an amendment where my concern is that we might be creating a situation where there will be some potential liability and lawsuits for a teacher or a coach choosing to comply or refusing to comply with whatever the, let s’ say the birth certificate presented or what the parents believe or what the student believes. So, this amendment simply would create a litigation defense account to be used, using general revenue funds to pay for the cost of the expenses that are incurred by an employee of a school district if they choose to comply or refuse to comply with the provisions. My concern is that we re’ putting teachers and coaches into a position where they re’ now going to have to, potentially, you know, be forced to say, yes, they are who they are, or the birth certificate says this but, no, they don t.’ My concern is that we re’ going to be putting a financial burden on teachers to pay for litigation. And this amendment would create a fund to deal with the issue because our teachers just don t’ have personal resources, nor should they be put in the position by a law that we create. And so, that s’ what this amendment does. Mr.iPresident, I hope the author of the bill finds it amenable and agreeable. And I move adoption of amendment No. 3. President:iiSenator Perry, on the amendment. Senator Perry:iiYou know, Mr.iPresident, the amendment is not needed. First of all, I guess I wasn t’ clear. The process starts with a challenge, maybe by a district opponent or another team or a parent that goes to a formal process that is UIL only that goes to their peer group. So, a teacher, a coach is not going to have access to that information, they re’ not going to be in that conversation. It s’ going to go through the process already established. Secondly, we are a society of laws. We try to go by laws, so anybody that willingly and knowingly is going to not comply with a law has other repercussions. If there s’ fraud in any government document that is submitted, that has a whole separate set of misdemeanor offenses to it. But there s’ no reason to have a defense fund when, one, the process doesn t’ avail itself for lawsuits to individuals that you named. And two, we assume everybody is going to comply with the law. So with that, I ll’ respectfully oppose the amendment. Secretary of the Senate:iiFloor Amendment No. 4 by Mene´ndez and Eckhardt. President:iiSenator Mene´ndez, you re’ recognized. Senator Mene´ndez:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident and Members. This amendment simply would, once again, explicitly state that an employee of a school district or an open-enrollment charter school is not personally liable for any act taken to comply with or to enforce or fail to comply with and enforce of this requirement. I think we ve’ already put too much on our public school employees, and the last thing we want is to put them in a position where something is going to happen, an angry parent is saying Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A27 this, yes, there, this gender, no, they re’ not. And I think we need to take them out of that, and we provide them protection for any kind of liability. Mr.iPresident and Members, I move adoption of amendment No. 4 for our teachers and public school employees. President:iiSenator Perry. Senator Perry:iiI will oppose the amendment, again, back to the same conversation we just had. Teachers and them are subject to liability concerns already, they do have those other protections. But on this issue, teachers, coaches, other people are not involved. This is a complaint that goes to the UIL process and goes forward from there. So, there shouldn t’ be a situation where a teacher, a coach, unless they choose not to comply or enforce by some mechanism they were required to, that s’ a violation of the law, they ll’ be subject to that. I will oppose the amendment for that reason. SENATE BILL 29 Thursday, April 15, 2021 President:iiSenator Campbell, for what purpose? Senator Campbell:iiTo comment on the bill, Sir. President:iiYou are recognized. Senator Campbell:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. Thank you, Senator Perry, for bringing this bill forward. You know, the advantage of testosterone in a male body, in general, gives an unfair advantage in body size, mass, strength to male competition. This is an unfair discrimination against girls. And it s’ why the fight was fought to create separate women s’ sports. This issue, to me, is about fairness. You know, we ask the UIL to create and enforce standards that encourage fair competition. High schools with, say, 150 students, they don t’ compete on the same football fields against high schools with 4,000 students. Likewise, we need standards that protect the integrity of girls ’sports to ensure fair competition, safe competition, and competition that parents know that when they send their child out on the field or the court that it s’ fair and that it s’ safe. And that s’ all this bill does. It s’ not about anything else. It doesn t’ stop people from competing. It doesn t’ ban anybody. It just ensures who you compete against to keep it fair, to make sure our daughters have opportunities to succeed in sports and in life, to pursue scholarships that allow them to attend colleges that they may not have been able to attend otherwise. As a doctor, as a Senator, and as a mother, thank you for this bill. Thank you, Senator Perry. Thank you, Mr.iPresident. President:iiThank you, Senator Campbell. Senator Whitmire, what purpose? Senator Whitmire:iiI d’ like to close in opposition. President:iiThis is the time. This is the moment. Senator Whitmire:iiThank, thank you, Mr.iPresident. And, Senator Perry, I recognize you have the votes, and I d’ like to use my time because I know, don t’ have the support to block your legislation, use my time in opposition is really trying to be positive by reaching out to you and all my colleagues recognize that not everyone agrees with you. And I won t’ hold out the NCAA as an example because they re’ not on the Senate floor, but I am concerned about the unintended consequences perhaps A28 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day even the intended consequences because I want to be the voice for folks in Texas that have transgender children that, quite frankly, Members, just want to be left alone. They re’ settled in their communities, working, going to church, raising their children, and they don t’ perceive that this legislation is going to be helpful. In fact, they think it will demonize their children. They re’ already discriminated against. Transgenders lead categories in suicide. So, what I would ask in my opposition is that you reach out to the transgender families, probably not the last time we ll’ discuss this issue, try to learn more. You and I had a positive conversation yesterday following my questions, and I know you to be a spiritual person, and you were very willing to meet families, discuss the issues. I don t’ think I m’ necessarily the best spokesperson. These families have spiritual advisors, they have medical experts, but I do know, personally, that transgender individuals are intelligent. We have a municipal judge, Phyllis Frye, that serves honorably on our municipal court in Houston that was Phillip Frye, when he was in A&M. I have friends that went to school with Phillip. Phillip went through transition, is a leader in our community, a friend of mine, and I would look forward for you to hear her perspective of what her life s’ been as a transgender. I think we have a responsibility to represent all Texans. I understand if you did a poll on that lifestyle or that situation of being a transgender, it d’ probably poll and not support that we not support your legislation, but I personally think we shouldn t’ govern by polls. We ought to meet individuals, try to learn. I ve’ learned. I didn t,’ wasn t’ familiar with transgenders coming out of high school or college, or even when I started this career. But I have, I, I have no hesitation by speaking up because, for instance, I ve’ got a piece of legislation I hope you ll’ support that you can t’ murder someone and claim, as someone did in a Travis County court as a defense to murder, that when I discovered my date was transgender I just lost my cool and killed a person. I hope we ll’ say, no, can t’ conduct a hate crime because you found someone was transgender that perhaps you met. It was not obvious to you that this person is transgender. So, thank you for the way you ve’ handled your legislation. I thank the membership for being as sensitive as they are, but I do know that this legislation will be painful to people that I represent and, quite frankly, I think we all have transgender families in our district, and it would be our duty to reach out and try to hear from them because I strongly believe until we re’ everyone s’ equal, none of us are equal. And that s’ all they re’ asking for is equality in their treatment. And I know that this can be a learning experience, and I think we ll’ all be better for the contact that we would have with those families that were here testifying the other day. So, thank you for allowing me to at least try to make this a learning and positive experience for this body and for the State of Texas. Thank you, Mr.iPresident. President:iiThank you, Senator Whitmire. Senator Perry, you re’ recognized on final passage. Senator Perry:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. And thank you, Dean. I want to de– me and you do not a– disagree on pretty much anything you just said. This bill has a very specific target and objective. I think we have met that. To be clear, my faith teaches me that we should treat everybody the way we want to be treated. And we re’ always found with these dilemmas in today s’ times that are, frankly, sometimes hard to explain as to why we live our lives the way we do and each of us make choices. This bill was about protecting an institution, a tradition, a opportunity for women to have a Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A29 venue to succeed in, in a competitive level with their peer groups. God created every one of us to be uniquely individuals and with special purpose, every one of us. He also gave us a road map on how to live a life full of joy. Not happiness, that s’ temporal and that s’ kind of from each perspective, but a path of joy, and sometimes when we get outside of His path, we are challenged. And this is one of those challenges where sometimes we have these conflicts on a secular level that seek to undermine and underpin traditions and histories in things that we hold near and dear which is competitive sports. Now, to be clear these individuals still can compete, and they can do it under their biological sex. My door s’ always open, always open. And we will always have frank, and anybody that knows me, I think Senator Johnson once said, you have a way of just saying what needs to be said and try not to be offensive in it. I will always speak the truth as I understand it from, from a faith-based perspective. Because when you lose your anchor and your foundation of perspective, you re’ subject to everything that s’ going on around you in a secular worldview. And I have to stay with that anchor. With that said, everybody, anybody and everybody within earshot or that will listen to this has always got an open door in my office. And we will have those frank and transparent conversations. And we will always seek to find consensus where it can be done, but I will not yield from a principled faith-based perspective. But on this issue, it was nothing more than to always make sure that our biological females and our biological males compete with each other. And that s’ was, one, safety, I was clear with that. And, two, any demonization or any rhetoric or anything to the contrary of that objective is not going to happen because this bill was passed. And if it does happen, we all collectively as a body, as individuals, and as people in this country, this state, these communities we live in should call that out for what it is. But we have to agree that we are allowed to have our perspectives, and it needs to be grounded in something. Mine chooses to be grounded in something different than probably where those people are at on some level. But those people are always welcome and will always be welcome to have those conversations. But on Senate Bill 29, it was about making sure what we have done for women s’ athletics stays for as long as this society chooses to let it be that way. And it really didn t’ change anything in status quo. But I do respect you and from a brother across the way, I love you immensely because you do bring an enrichment and a historical base and a different perspective than living in a rural Texas area versus but, but we re’ really not that different at our core because I know everybody s’ heart on this floor, and I know your heart and my heart s’ the same. I never want to ostracize or alienate, but at the same time, there s’ the other side of the equation where people feel the same when you allow this to happen. And so, door s’ always open, Dean. I come from a faith-based perspective. On this issue it was strictly about protecting an institution, and I think gains that we need to protect and should be proud of and safety. But please on those groups that you know that I probably don t’ come in contact like you would, volunteer my time to come and visit with them. Or tell them that my door is always open because it s’ an opportunity to learn, it s’ an opportunity to witness. Hearts may not get changed, but at least a better perspective from where I m’ coming from versus where they re’ coming from can always be a better thing. But thank you for your comments. With that, I move final passage. A30 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

SENATE BILL 2 Wednesday, July 14, 2021 President:iiSenator Perry, you re’ recognized to suspend the regular order of business on Committee Substitute for Senate Bill No. 2. Suspend the rules, I m’ sorry, suspend the rules on Committee Substitute for Senate Bill No. 2. Senator Perry:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident and Members. I move to suspend the regular order of business and the printing rules for Senate Bill 2. President:iiSecretary will call the roll when, you want to lay out the bill and then we ll’ take the vote. Senator Perry:iiI can do that. President:iiAs always. Senator Perry:iiMembers, Senate Bill 2, UIL and NCAA fair sports and women s’ and girls athletes for safety and equity in their peer groups, biological peer groups, is what the heart of Senate Bill 2 does. Specifically, Senate Bill 2 requires UIL athletes and college athletes who attend public universities or public schools to compete in sports associated with their biological sex as determined at or near birth. Additionally, Senate Bill 2 challenges the concept that if you say it, believe it, or think it, then it must be so even when science clearly indicates differently. Female athletics is not the proper venue to deal with those caught up in the mental health issues associated with dysphoria. The exploitation of politically correct narrative by males today competing in women s’ sports to capitalize on very well scientifically documented advantages is another pushback that Senate Bill 2 hopes to address. Senate Bill 2 stops the continuous issues of tail-wagging-the-dog scenario where less than one percent can destroy an institution of equality, fairness, common sense, traditions, joy of competition, and so much more associated with women s’ athletics as granted by Title IX; recognizes the science of competitive advantages granted to birth at males; recognizes the difference in body mass, muscle mass, male makeup can be a contributing factor into unsafe competition when men compete against women; reminds us that it s’ not okay to destroy the dreams of one for the benefit of another; reminds us that competition to mean something, it has to be by rule be a level playing field. Examples are throughout the code for competing women and men throughout both high school, as well as collegiate, as well as professional sports. Senate Bill 2 rightfully protects 99 percent plus, upholding the intent of Title IX, protecting the rich heritage of competition amongst biological, equal peer groups, and giving future generations of hope that all women will have the opportunity to reach their dreams and aspirations as a female athlete. With that, I move to suspend the regular order of rules as well as the printing rules for Senate Bill, Committee Substitute to Senate Bill 2. (Senator Birdwell in Chair) Presiding Officer:iiSenator Zaffirini, for what purpose? Senator Zaffirini:iiTo ask the author of the bill a question or two, Mr.iPresident, or more. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A31

Presiding Officer:iiDo you, thank you, Ma am.’ Do you yield, Senator, Senator Perry? Senator Perry:iiI do yield. Presiding Officer:iiYou re’ recognized, Senator Zaffirini. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. Senator Perry, is there any evidence that transgender girls have an advantage when playing high school or college sports? Senator Perry:iiAbsolutely. The records held in the State of Texas, believe it is the State of Texas records, show the competitive advantage under males in similar sports. So, all the records are substantially different for males in counterpart sports, for instance, let me get you that number or two. And I ll’ move to your transgender specific question. In the 100 meter, 100 meter five, 5A dash, boys ’record is 10.15 seconds, girls ’record is 11.16; shotput 2A, 65 feet for boys, 44 feet, 2 inches for girls; backstroke, boys ’ record, 6A, 100 yard backstroke, 47.09 seconds, girls ,’ 52.48 seconds. Under the UIL rule, differences between boys and girls sports, girls play with a smaller basketball, in golf, girls hit from a shorter tee box, shorting the distance between the hole and the tee box. Track and field, girls throw a lighter weight shotput and discus, and girls ’heights for hurdles are lower. That s’ in the biological male and male on male sports as versus the biological female. In the transgendered athletes, we ve’ got examples, in the NCAA recently CeCe Telfer competed on a university s’ men s’ track team, track and field team, for three years before transitioning to a female so that they could be qualified as running in that female sport. Competing in the women s’ team as a senior, Telfer won the NCAA Division II title in women s’ 400 hurdles in 2019, where the prior three years he was not competitive in the male component group. U.S. track and field team ultimately prohibited CeCe from competing in the Olympic qualifiers because of different factors there. Connecticut, and this was used in testimony yesterday, and interesting enough it only kind of highlights where this can go. Connecticut, two biological male athletes have amassed a 15 state, 15 different state champions that once were held by nine different biological females. The interesting point that was brought out in testimony yesterday is those two biological males were transgender males that were competing sometimes against each other and they were alternating between victories. But it does not negate the fact and the reason for SB 2, there are nine biological females that would have competed and won those sports traditionally and historically that were in those competitions that are no longer able to compete. So, yes, very clearly the biological advantage granted to male at a birth by bigger body mass, bigger muscle tone, more capacity for lung capacity, heart capacity, to compete in these types of sports is clearly evidence through the actual competitions that have now begin to show up. Senator Zaffirini:iiAnd, of course, those are mostly averages and, of course, there are exceptions to that. Earlier today I was talking to a former high school athlete who was quite gifted and talking about this very bill, and I made the point to him that if he were playing golf against Senator Kolkhorst, he probably would lose to her. And he agreed and that has nothing to do with gender. But interestingly, he suggested that A32 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day instead of considering legislation like this, that we consider adding some gender-free categories for competition. And I thought that was a novel idea. What would you think of that? Senator Perry:iiWell, it s’ not the subject matter of the bill and how this thing is handled, how this issue is handled going forward in competitive contact or skill sets that maybe not play on the muscle mass or the body mass or the speed advantages and things that come historically by birth, not the anecdotal one-offs, there are those. You know, I have no doubt that with my golf game, Senator Kolkhorst is going to beat me even though she has an advantage at the tee box because she has a skill set. And if she plays from my tee, she probably can still beat me. It s’ not a question of strength in that as much as it s’ more about the skill of keeping the ball in the fairway, which is not a skill that I have been able to perfect. So, different levels of skill obviously, different sports, different issues. Senator Zaffirini:iiWell, since I heard that suggestion this morning, of course there was no time to vet the idea, to study it thoroughly, or to develop an amendment. But going forward, I think that that s’ a very interesting topic for us to pursue. Senator Perry:iiYeah. To that point, I think when you consider again, the scientific data that where a male is born by birth, majority of time are going to be granted advantages that cannot be overcome. Senator Zaffirini:iiRight. But if they went to enter, if students want to enter in a gender-neutral category, they certainly could. Senator Perry:iiYeah. And I would say it this way, remember this bill is targeted from UIL-sponsored events, so seventh grade through 12th grade and high school, and then moves into the collegiate level– Senator Zaffirini:iiCorrect. Senator Perry:ii–and we re’ seeing it play, these discussions are ongoing in our Olympic level, and they re’ trying to have, find workarounds where the competitive advantage is mitigated or at least acknowledged and go forward. But for those people that choose to play in coeds at city leagues, church leagues, whatever may be sponsored, that ’s not going to impact them. But when it comes down to state-sponsored events or collegiate events where the accolade of winning becomes something that could significantly transform someone s’ life, scholarships, Olympic opportunities, that if that person were successful in those could actually be transformational. How many of us can, at my age it s’ Mary Lou Retton or Strug or some of those kids. So, you re’ truly, truly have to acknowledge the loss of some of these athletes that could be granted had, if this initiative or this issue continues to gain momentum. And I m’ going to find, give you statistics later on where I hear a lot of times it s’ not a problem, and I can tell you why it s’ not a problem, and I can tell you that after yesterday s’ testimony figuring out that it truly is trending to where it can be a problem, so. Senator Zaffirini:iiWell, maybe we need a paradigm shift, but that s’ for another day. Senator, is there any evidence of transgender persons changing gender identity to gain an advantage in high school or college sports? Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A33

Senator Perry:iiWell, I think I just gave you a couple of examples that clearly when they were in their biological sex competing they did not perform well and could not compete. And then when they switched to the female, biological female category, in both instances they were successful, and not only successful, actually beat their counterpart in the female biological set. And then we have no further than, we have a current weightlifter in the Olympics that has competed as a male, their biological sex for years, to no avail, and now they re’ moving over to a biological female sport as a biological male to compete. And all indications are is, there is not a female that will be able to compete at an Olympic level with that individual that s’ a biological male choosing or getting to compete against them. So, so can you say that was their motive or reason? All I can do is say the facts seem to support the fact that that would be their motive or reason. Senator Zaffirini:iiBut is there any evidence at all to suggest that persons would subject themselves to the hardship associated with being transgender, such as bullying and isolation, to receive a sports scholarship for example? Senator Perry:iiSo, I ll’ answer it this way. In Texas that begins and ends with a birth certificate at the UIL level, and that s’ specifically the focus at the UIL level on SB 2 is to have a birth certificate presented, if challenged, if a student is challenged in a school, that they would produce a birth certificate. And currently, that birth certificate can reflect their latest gender selection and not their actual biological sex. And it can be done in a way if that certificate s’ challenged or changed, or let me rephrase it, if the certificate is changed that s’ on file with UIL, it can be done as a amended, amended, or it can be done as a new, which would lose all historical tracking of the biological sex of that person at birth. So, the answer to your question came clearly apparent yesterday that in Texas we do not track and have not had the capacity to track whether transgender males competing in female sports has occurred or not occurred because the way the birth certificate selection has been or used, if you will, in that process has not been tracked that way. So, we don t’ know what the numbers are, we don t’ know what the data is on that specific issue. If the bill passes, we will clearly know going forward. I can tell you after doing some quick math with some data, the DSHS presented to us today, after yesterday s’ testimony because DSHS testified and were clearly, clearly wrong on every level of the answers that they provided on how certificates of birth are amended in this state or modified. I can tell you, from 2018 through 2019, after doing a little backwards math of the data they give us because it was not clearly given me in that way, a 3,800 percent increase, a 3,800 percent increase from 2018 to 2019 for minors requesting the sex on their certificate to be modified or changed not due to clerical error. So, the idea that do I know of any specifics, just for this specific reason, one, we don t’ track it in Texas that way. We didn t’ track it before that. I think if you go around your school districts, every one of them will acknowledge that there are trans kids. And then I think most of them would acknowledge that there s’ those cases where they are males and females and the opposite, females and males. But the point I guess I m’ making is we don t’ track it that way in Texas, so we can t’ answer that with legitimate accuracy. Going forward we would. But secondly, there is a trending up, and in hearings yesterday, I wish I could always get the last testimony first. It never fails that the last one or two of the testimonies that you wait out those lengthy days of public testimony. And it s’ sad that A34 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day we re’ going to get to do this one again, unfortunately, and run those witnesses back through this process one more time. But the last, so the first part we had a resource witness from DSHS that said you can only have your birth certificate modified if you show surgery, which is factually, completely inaccurate, and we knew it at the time. They didn t’ acknowledge it at the time subsequent to that. They provided me data and forms that indicate truly different. I think anybody would have thought that there would have been a pretty detailed process to have your birth certificate amended or changed in Texas to reflect a different sex than biological sex, the truth of the matter is, based on testimony at the very end, a parent said, no, not actually. It s’ about a month, you find a judge that will accept a physician statement that transitioning is ongoing or occurred or is in process and that transition was referred to as a social transition which required no surgery, no drugs, no modification to the physique or physical characteristics of that individual. So, the question I posed to that witness was, so if I m’ understanding you right, legitimately, a pre-pubescent male or a pubescent male could decide to switch to female athletics, go to a physician, find a judge, and I have the paperwork on what it takes to get a birth certificate in Travis County, if it s’ question I asked you about venue-shopping and, yes, that was answered affirmatively, yes, you can pick just about wherever you want to do it. But that, that person, that child, could say I want to transition, get a doctor statement according, run it through the process in Travis County, then have their birth certificate amended, and then truly, or changed, to reflect that, that transition, and then show up and start competing with the female athletes the next day. So, there s’ this misnomer of information that it takes a lot of effort and a lot of energy and physical changes or chemical changes to effectively have a judge sign off on your birth certificate change, and that s’ just not the case. Reading from step three and the Travis County Texas minor sex change, gender marker change for a birth certificate, the letter from a medical doctor, statement that the minor is 10 years or older, medical, letter from a medical or order, I mean, I m’ sorry, doctor. And if you move over to it, there s’ a question that says, pretty much, does it require surgery, and the unequivocal answer is, no. So, to get a birth certificate to reflect what your gender is versus what your biological sex in Texas is pretty easy, and it lends itself for the exact same problems that I think, clearly, if we re’ not naive and will acknowledge the direction, for all kinds of factors that we ve’ discussed before. This is where we re’ going, to where effectively female sports could, biological female sports could see a day when it s,’ it s’ no longer in existence. Senator Zaffirini:iiWell, thank you. That s’ a whole lot more information than my question asked for so I thank you for that courtesy. Page one of your bill addresses the issue of privacy. What guidance does Senate Bill 2 provide regarding how a referee or other sports official should handle a challenge regarding a player s’ sex? Senator Perry:iiSo, first of all, referees and school administrators and school boards are not involved in that process today. So, Senate Bill 2 changes no way the process of how you handle a challenge, and that s’ all done by UIL. So, if there is a challenge, if a parent, a competing district, if a competing team member or somebody raises a challenge, it ll’ be funneled into the UIL process for determining that challenge. And it ll’ start and stop with the birth certificate a lot of times, but, and then there are other Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A35 remedies. But in no way does this give a school administrator, a referee, a school board the opportunity to investigate on their own accord any physical characteristics, or for that matter any further, it immediately moves into the UIL process. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you. But how does the bill protect persons from having to share private, personal information simply because a coach or an opposing player or anyone or anyone s’ parent demands proof that a player is not a transgender? Senator Perry:iiThe bill doesn t’ change that process today. Today, that challenge is already available, already available. And it s’ exercised probably more than we know. You don t’ hear about it because it moves through the proper channels of a UIL process that is established to determine and to resolve that. It doesn t’ change that process at all. So, however that process that works today, which arguably we don t’ hear about a lot of these publicly, and thankfully. The private aspect of that and whatever they do to protect that individual that s’ been challenged or in that situation, is running through a UIL process that this bill does not change. Senator Zaffirini:iiI certainly will look into that further. If a player does not have immediate access to his or her birth certificate, which most persons would not have at a sporting event, could a player be subject to an involuntary and invasive medical exam? Senator Perry:iiNo. Just as I went to just now, that challenge has a process to go through. You don t’ get to stop an athletic event, run out on a floor from a spectator s’ perspective and scream, this person s’ not who they think are or who they say they are biologically, we want to stop the game. That s’ not how it works, and everybody knows that. So, any thing or narrative to the contrary that may indicate that is just false. If there s’ a challenge, it s’ typically done within the district. So, a district would challenge a different district in that process, and it picks up the UIL and moves forward. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you. Regarding bullying, also addressed on page one, does Senate Bill 2 address any potential for bullying that could occur because the bill excludes transgender persons from normal school activities? Senator Perry:iiSo, basically, right now, you and I both know that as a Legislature, since I ve’ been here, 2011, I think most of the bullying initiatives have come in subsequent to 2011 when I started. We have laws on the books that are meant to prevent or discourage bullying, and we still have people that bully. It s’ just human nature. Right? Whether or transgender or not, we have bullying, and that is already addressed through school processes, school protocols, school boards, as well as state statutes. So, this changes nothing. If you are bullied as a transgender, as a gay, as a white straight guy, you know, different religious denominations, there are rules already in place and laws that protect against that. So, the process for enforcement or remedy because you ve’ been bullied is not changing in this bill. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you. Senator, we recently saw in the news as reported by ESPN and other media outlets the case of two Namibian female runners banned from the Olympic 400 meters event because of naturally high testosterone levels. If your A36 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day claim is that transgender students have an unfair competitive advantage because of a difference in testosterone levels, how does this bill account for female athletes who have naturally high levels? Senator Perry:iiSo, I m’ glad you brought that up because you and I are both old enough to remember Paul Harvey. Correct? What was Paul Harvey famous for, what did he used to say? And now you know the rest of the story. So, the rest of the story with those two individuals, it s’ interesting that you would have two individuals from the same area on the same teams, basically coming out of the same region, so that s’ a different tangent and a different conversation. The story I have been told after looking into those two cases is those were born unisex, which basically means, typically they re’ indeterminate as far as sex at birth. That s’ a very rare case which kind of questions how two could be that way and then competing for an Olympic side, it s’ almost kind of strange coincidences there. But, so intersex, they could not make a decision or it s’ not clearly what that biological sex is at birth. So, in that you could have an abnormal testosterone level. Right? So, these people were picked, however they were picked by, in that country, we have a different process, I think, in this country, a little more sophistication. But that s’ where that occurs, and whatever that sex was determined is where it goes. But that was the background, it s’ not like this, it ’s not like a normal biological female birth had this inordinate amount of testosterone that created this issue. They had something unique from day one. My bill specifically, the reason it s’ drafted the way is birth certificate at or near birth, gives the physician, the family, the medical experts the time it takes to determine what biological sex that should represent going forward. We had testimony the other day from a unisex that, that they think their parents made the wrong decision, but that s’ a different conversation, different bill. But on those two individuals it s’ not fair to put them in the whole classification of all biological females because they were unique from day one as they were created. Secondly, and I want to get off the testosterone narrative because obviously testosterone can enhance performance, no doubt. But it s’ also the body mass, the muscle mass, the oversized organs such as lungs and hearts that breathe better capacity to run faster, longer stamina. So, it s’ not only the testosterone issue that obviously separates men and women from a lot of different ways, it s’ all the other advantages granted to males at birth. So, testosterone is a component or an element that we mark, and we try to mirror some of our objectives to make sure it s’ within these certain bounds now going forward in the Olympics. But it isn t’ the only marker that gives problems to female, biological females on the court or on the field. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you, Senator. Would you agree that legislation like this really has focused on the subject and on the needs and interests of persons who aren t’ transgender to the point that there s’ greater understanding about their needs, about their interests, about their situation? I, for one, recall, for example, when we first dealt with the restroom bill, I knew nothing about the issue, absolutely nothing, as long as I ve’ been in the Legislature. But I began the way I always do by asking my Senate staff to develop a vocabulary list, and you and I talked about this vocabulary earlier today. They developed a 17-page document. And I didn t’ know terms like cisgender and, but I do now. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A37

Senator Perry:iiRight. Senator Zaffirini:iiAnd now, I certainly have developed insight into the issue and into this group of people, how much they suffer, how much they suffer mentally and sometimes physically, and what their needs are. But we disagree about this legislation, even about its need, but I certainly believe that we agree that it has focused attention on this issue and that many of us have learned so much more about it, as we should have. Senator Perry:iiSenator Zaffirini, I don t’ disagree. I m’ not, obviously, familiar with every aspect of all of these, these kids found in these positions or adults for that matter. But it has been an education and eye-opening, and that s’ the challenge we face. Right? When we re’ being asked to make a change for the benefit of one, and arguably great public policy and sentiment to do those things, if the, if the cost of that change impacts another group negatively, it s’ trying to figure out in the middle there, where you may find middle ground. And, and so, that s’ what we debate. The easy stuff is easy stuff. Right? I mean, we all want to help A, or we all think roads and bridges is important. Those are things that are not emotionally, they re’ not politically, policy-wise they re’ not really divisive. I have learned, and I hear, I hear those parents of those kids that are going through this process. And it s’ sad, it s’ a sad, sad thing. And I don t’ know there s’ an easy answer either way. I know the parents are coping and accommodating the best they can. The challenge becomes when you go from that point of accommodation and trying to help to a point that literally can have a negative impact on different things that may or may not be as important to people. That s’ where we have differing opinions and diversity of thought and choice and representation. On this issue, and we don t’ legislate by polls, but it s’ important to know what people think, overwhelming majority, regardless of policy political affiliation, men or women, believe it s’ common sense policy to allow girls to compete with girls and boys to compete with boys for both equity in their peer groups, equality, traditions, history, and safety. That s’ clearly indicated by a majority, not the right, not the left, all the way across the board by a majority. So, those are the challenges that this bill and bills like this present to people like me that is representing a district, clearly I know where I stand in my district, but evidently where a large part of the majority do stand on this. When you re’ asking to do something that could have a negative impact, how do you balance those out? And that s’ where I find myself on this issue. And I could argue our society is probably too invested in sports. Having three knee surgeries, I wish I would have not been invested in it as much as I was individually. That s’ a different conversation, different argument, the fact of the day is, we do place high value on sports and competitive sports, and we want fairness in sports. And most importantly, we don t’ want an inordinate amount of risk of injury to be interjected over a policy decision, and that s’ where we find ourselves at. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you so much, Senator. Thank you, Mr.iPresident. President:iiThank you, Senator Zaffirini. Senator Campbell, for what purpose? Senator Campbell:iiTo ask the author a question. President:iiDo you yield, Senator Perry? Senator Perry:iiI yield. A38 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

President:iiYou are recognized, Senator Campbell. Senator Campbell:iiThank you. Senator Perry, thank you so much for bringing this forward. I do believe that men should, or women should play only against women in sports. And I wanted to ask if you had heard a Serena Williams quote that she gave years ago regarding playing against men? Senator Perry:iiI have not. Senator Campbell:iiI think it s’ pertinent to this bill. And to counter, or since Senator Zaffirini, my friend Senator Zaffirini, had brought up an illustration of golf, playing against Senator Kolkhorst. If you will indulge me, there s’ about five sentences here. But this is when John McEnroe, so I want to read this, John McEnroe suggested in a 2017 interview that Serena Williams would only be ranked 700th in the world, and, of course, right now she s’ 16th in the world, but she would only be ranked 700th in the world if she played in the men s’ circuit. He was widely criticized then, but just four years earlier, Williams appeared on the David Letterman s’ Late Night and said basically the same thing. And, quotes, If I were to play Andy Murray I would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six minutes, maybe 10 minutes, she told Letterman. The men are a lot faster and they serve harder, they hit it harder, it s’ just a different game. I love to play women s’ tennis, I only want to play girls because I don t’ want to be embarrassed. So, that s’ in quotes, and I think that brings up or supports the point of girls playing with girls. Here we ve’ got a world athlete and that makes, she is saying she believes, for her, she wants to play girls. So, I think that s’ very important and pertinent to your bill because we re’ talking about protecting girls in girls sports. Senator Perry:iiSenator Campbell, you raise a point that I think we sometimes overlook that are, today s’ actions have long term consequences. Would we be talking about Ms.iWilliams as a superstar tennis player in her own right, in her own peer group, her biological peer group, if somewhere along the way she was forced, because if we don t’ pass legislation like this, you will have biological male counterparts competing in those sports that she was in, where she was never known to be the superstar she was. Would that, is that a potential overshadowing that we would never hear about a Serena Williams? Senator Campbell:iiYes. And I think her quote that she would lose 6-0, 6-0 in five to six, maybe 10 minutes, makes that point. Senator Perry:iiSo, the risks are high. Correct? That, right now we have separation of sports for one reason or several reasons, but one of them is safety, but two is to allow equal competition in your peer group. And people can argue this isn t’ a motive, but it truly has long term consequences. Senator Campbell:iiUmh hmm. Senator Perry:iiIf I was the state championship qualifier as a female 100-yard dash winner and my senior year right before I m’ going to NCAA level competition, I have a transgender take me out, a biological male, am I going to get the same look, the same rewards, the same response? Fast forward that to an Olympic competition, which is world accolades and acclaim and endorsements, and I ll’ remind people we just did a NCAA endorsement on this floor I voted against. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A39

Senator Campbell:iiUmh hmm. Senator Perry:iiBut basically now, the money really gets interesting and really lucrative going forward. So, to have an opportunity where some biological female has for all their life been in summer sports, summer leagues, competitive sports, training, coaching, and all of those things, to be possibly wiped away– Senator Campbell:iiYes. Senator Perry:ii–at the most important time in their athletic career before all those things could transpire is just not acceptable. Senator Campbell:iiI agree wholeheartedly. Thank you very much for bringing those points. Thank you, Mr.iPresident. President:iiThank you, Senator Campbell. Senator Hinojosa, for what purpose? Senator Hinojosa:iiWill the gentleman yield for a couple of questions? President:iiDo you– Senator Perry:iiI will. President:ii–yield, Senator Perry? Senator Perry, do you yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Senator Hinojosa:iiThank you– President:iiSenator Hinojosa, you re’ recognized. Senator Hinojosa:ii–thank you, Mr.iPresident. And thank you, Senator Perry. I know we debated this bill several times over the session, long debates. But Senate Bill 2, and I m’ going to focus only, I guess, on collegiate sports, this covers higher education. Senator Perry:iiIt moved to the higher education, public institutions of– Senator Hinojosa:iiCorrect. Senator Perry:ii–higher education. Senator Hinojosa:iiSo, would Senate Bill 2 conflict with NCAA rules for sports? Senator Perry:iiI don t’ think so. Senator Hinojosa:iiWell, they say it does. Senator Perry:iiWell, they have indicated but there s’ been no legal action to say they do. So, there s’ been no court cases to affirm their current position. What we ve’ seen with the NCAA, number one, they re’ really not an organized body to sue. Right? They really are not that type of organization, they re’ more of a air traffic controller, if you will, of conferences. And each conference has rules, but even within Texas we have jurisdiction over those public institutions we fund to the tune of about $20 billion a year. So, this is what the law would impact is that universe of public schools, public higher ed universities, or every, everybody in our public school system from college down, our jurisdiction over them. They would not be able to prevent an Oregon from coming in if they allow trans on the Oregon team, but we would not allow a trans on a– Senator Hinojosa:iiLet me– A40 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:ii–or a biological male to play on a biological female. Senator Hinojosa:iiI agree that we as a state legislature have oversight, if you will, over state universities and even private colleges and universities. My point is this, the NCAA has rules that govern, provide guidance to, within the competition, those teams that are a part of the NCAA. And my understanding is that the rules are to be inclusive, and that Senate Bill 2 conflicts with those rules, and they would not be able to allow athletes, I guess, if we re’ going to exclude the athletes that are excluded under your bill, they will not be allowed to compete here in Texas. What would happen with other universities outside of Texas that came in and did not comply with your bill? Senator Perry:iiSo, the bill, to be clear, only regulates oversight over the Texas university systems. If, you know, if we have state jurisdiction over them they would fall under the purview of Senate Bill 2. And I want to remind people, one of the purpose, official purpose statements of the NCAA, they re’ an organization of conflict up and down, and part of it is because some of the changes that we re’ seeing move through systems from, you know, seventh grade up in states and stuff, lots of things are moving in momentum, so they re’ going to have to make a position somewhere down the road that they re’ clearly going to have some, some, some position that is backed by some legal precedent at some point. But this bill only, only deals with those. But to achieve, this is NCAA purpose statement, to achieve our mission we will preserve sports traditions and integrity and emphasize student, athletic safety. That is the heart of an SB 2, the integrity, the traditions, and more importantly, student safety is what Senate Bill 2 is addressing. Senator Hinojosa:iiWell, maybe that s’ what Senate Bill 2 does, but the NCAA rules, the heart of them is to promote inclusion, not exclusion. So, my question is if you have a team, let s’ say, from Connecticut, from Oklahoma, or from California come and compete here in Texas, they would not have, they would not have to be in compliance with Senate Bill 2? Senator Perry:iiThat s’ correct, they re’ not a state oversight university. So, you could literally see a team show up with a female basketball team, biological female basketball team that have allowed male biological players to become part of that team as an Oklahoma or an Oregon or somewhere else, show up and play against a team of all females from Texas. Senator Hinojosa:iiAs you well know, sometimes in the past, the NCAA and other nationwide sports organizations have prohibited from special events coming to, to be held in a state that may not be in compliance or disagree with the rules. Senator Perry:iiYeah, I ve’ seen that or heard that threat of recent, actually it hasn t’ played out that way. But secondary to that, the safety of, especially in a collegiate level, let s’ say a 19-year-old that has, a 19-year-old biological female that has an opportunity to compete at the next level should not have to worry about a biological male taking that away from her. And not only important, if it goes into the soccer level sports and some of those other team sports that allow possibility of collisions, permanently taking that person out of the ranks. So– Senator Hinojosa:iiSenator Perry– Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A41

Senator Perry:ii–for safety. Senator Hinojosa:ii–I apologize for interfering but that was not my question. Senator Perry:iiI didn t’ understand your question then. Senator Hinojosa:iiWell, I ll’ make it clearer. Senator Perry:iiOkay. Senator Hinojosa:iiYou know, there s’ a possibility because it has happened that, for example, the NCAA may have different rules than, than Senate Bill 2, in terms of the law we re’ trying to pass, that would disqualify maybe Texas from having nationwide events here sponsored by the NCAA. Senator Perry:iiAnd that would be the NCAA s’ prerogative, and they can do that today if they don t’ like anything. That s’ a possibility. I think they ll’ find, and as we have always known, that when you look at states like Texas, Florida, California, those are an economic engine that they typically do not want to, and at the same time, those are usually conference decisions based on the records of those teams that draw those regions in. But if they choose to do that, that s’ their call. Senator Hinojosa:iiAnd that was my question. I just answered it, I guess. If they want to do that, they can. Senator Perry:iiThat s’ right. They can do that today. Senator Hinojosa:iiOne more quick point. That is, in all the years that I have served the Texas Legislature, not one constituent, not one family from my senatorial district ever complained about this issue. But again, thank you as always for answering my questions, Senator Perry. Senator Perry:iiAnd I appreciate that. I think that they re’ going to start having those opportunities for complaints if Senate Bill 2 doesn t’ pass. Senator Hinojosa:iiThank you, Senator Perry. President:iiSenator Hall, for what purpose? Senator Hall:iiAsk the author some questions. President:iiDo you yield, Senator Perry? Senator Perry:iiI yield. President:iiYou re’ recognized, Senator Hall. Senator Hall:iiSenator Perry, first of all, thank you for bringing this bill forward. When was Title IX passed? Senator Perry:iiI believe it was 73,’ 49 years ago. Senator Hall:iiAnd why did, why did we feel it was necessary? Senator Perry:iiBecause at the time there was no opportunities for females, biological females, to showcase or have a venue that set them apart. As one witness said, I was a child of the 60s’ growing up, female, subsequent coach, I think is what she said, that I was told my only opportunities in life were receptionist and admin assistant or something like that. Nothing against those positions but she wanted to A42 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day play, and there was no venue to play. So, when Title IX came out in 73,’ that was a game changer, life changer in her opinion because it set her on a path of totally different direction. Without Title IX, that path would not have ever been available. Senator Hall:iiIt was a real problem that we had, we had, I mean it was real data that was there. Because nothing prohibited females from being on sports teams except the fact that there was such a significant physical difference between the two that it just didn t’ work out. Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Hall:iiAnd so, in order to be fair in the money that was being spent on sports, we separated the two. Was there any consideration of the transgender issue in 1972? Senator Perry:iiI was about 10 or 11 years old at the time, so I don t’ know what the conversation behind the scenes were. But I think it s’ fair to say that at the time the idea that a biological male would, would choose to compete at a very aggressive and competitive level against a biological female was not really a broad topic of conversation. Senator Hall:iiRight. And I think you ve’ answered a question of Senator Zaffirini and with Senator Campbell of the significant physical difference between the two, it s’ not just speculation, that it s’ real. And the question that Senator Hinojosa asked about NCAA, I think we had a witness that experienced where, when the State of Idaho, where they ve’ actually passed a bill very similar to what we have, had great threats from the NCAA that, going to take the sports out of the state, et cetera. What was the testimony that we received firsthand from someone who s’ from the State of Idaho– Senator Perry:iiI think she– Senator Hall:ii–I think it passed. Senator Perry:ii–if I m’ correct, she said that Idaho was the recipient of two conference regionals or the next level out of conference NCAA tournaments in two different sports. Senator Hall:iiSo nothing, I mean, sports continued in NCAA just as they had, there was no retribution, there was no problem– Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Hall:ii–that came about it. Okay. In sports, what is the most important thing? Senator Perry:iiWell, I think we had testimony, and I know where this conversation is going, you know, as I said a while ago, we can have an argument that we invest way too much in sports, that we are invested too much in a sports society. But truth of the matter is, we are. Senator Hall:iiI agree with that. Senator Perry:iiIn, and in that context it seems like winning becomes the only metric that coaches, school systems, UT, Tech, you know, you ll’ hear it a hundred times, our front door to the university, and I don t’ know that I agree that it should be, but the reality, perception of reality is our football team. Right? People want to go to a place Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A43 that s’ got a football team that s’ in that top 20 or that competitive athletic teams. So, we place an overemphasis on success slash winning, slash of that marquee sport at a university which bleeds into all the other sports. Coaches don t’ get paid millions of dollars to lose. So, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, and we want to be naive and say it s’ not true, the winning aspect of our sports competition in UIL, in college, in Olympics, for sure, because you can have out of, out of sanctioned sports teams and venues and things, and that provides avenues for the team camaraderie and the things you hear are benefits. But on this level, when you get into that and coaches ’jobs are determined on success or failures, you don t’ get a 2 and 10 coach being renewed after a few years if that s’ all they do. So, the winning aspect of it is what s’ driving, unfortunately, some of this conversation. It s’ the truth, you can be naive and say it doesn t’ exist, but the truth of the matter is we judge a coach or anybody associated with that sport on winning. Senator Hall:iiThat s’ what it s’ all about, it s’ competition. And you either have, you don t’ have competition if you don t’ have a winner. And if a coach doesn t’ pick the set of players that that coach thinks is going to be the combination for winning, they don t’ base, base it on diversity. I mean, I can t’ imagine the men s’ football team picking a trans male or two just to have diversity on the team if it was going to affect their ability to win. And so, if there, if that s’ the case, as we move into this, coaches are going to be inclined to have the best performance, and that s’ going to mean more transgender females on a team where eventually we would actually have an all transgender female team based on what you spoke out earlier and what was testified about from the UIL folks of the increase they re’ seeing in a number of folks applying, or the number being identified as transgender females. Senator Perry:iiI think that we can get there logically if you re’ truly looking at the facts. And I would point to the Connecticut case, those two individuals are highlighted as taking state champions, 15 different state championships that once were held by nine biological females. Those two were trans males, I mean trans females, which are biological males running in those female sports. So, a, you can see a transition into where the best athlete, not the protection of a biological separation that we ve’ acknowledged as fair and equitable and safer, for all the years of history could take over that venue. Senator Hall:iiSo, what right now, if we don t’ do something, if this bill doesn t’ pass, we are going to be on a path which will totally negate Title IX? Senator Perry:iiI think that s’ a logical conclusion you can get to. It may not be in 10 years, it may not be in five years, but over time as teams are more and more of a biological male mix on the female biological sports teams and individual sports. As that goes through and as we put the carrot of compensation attached to those coaches that are under pressure to perform at their best, it will just be a natural evolution. Senator Hall:iiAnd we heard a lot of comments about it s’ unfair to not let the trans female play on the female team, but is there, there is no barrier that would prevent a trans female from playing on a male team. A44 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:iiNo, in Texas under the UIL specifically, and I m’ not aware of the actual ruling, if you will, if there is one, I don t’ think there is on a collegiate level. In Texas, a female can play on a male sport, biological male sport, biological female, or for that matter a trans female, can play on that male sport if there s’ not a counter sport for the female. So, you know, I think the examples were given that a female, biological or trans female, can play on a baseball team, but she can t’ play on the softball team or vice versa. So, there s,’ there s’ opportunities for females to play in boys ’sports, I ll’ put it at that. Senator Hall:iiSo, really, all what we re’ doing here is simply trying to protect women s’ sports to fulfill what was promised to the women when we first passed Title IX. Senator Perry:iiYeah, I think that s’ exactly right. It is an upholding and reaffirmation of what Title IX was intended. It s’ still relevant today. I think one thing that s’ changed is the money, the highlight, the accolades that come with being successful as a competitive athlete through our UIL up to Olympic levels is obviously different. We value that in so many different ways more than what we did back in the day when money was not attached. But it absolutely reaffirms the purpose of Title IX. But all, I can t’ go back to it enough, it s,’ it s’ just as much as a safety issue for those kids that don t’ compete at that highest level but are on those teams. You don t’ want those female, biological females being subjected to injury– Senator Hall:iiNo, you are absolutely– Senator Perry:ii–unnecessarily so. Senator Hall:ii–yeah, it s’ not just the competition aspect of winning or what the team s’ made of. We re’ talking about introducing real safety problems where females, biological females, are going to be injured if this gets to where there is a bigger mix of the trans females participating against biological females. Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Hall:iiWell, thank you for this bill. I think that we would be derelict in our responsibility of legislators to protect what has been established by not passing this bill. Senator Perry:iiThank you. Senator Hall:iiThank you. Presiding Officer:iiSenator Whitmire, for what purpose? Senator Whitmire:iiGentleman yield? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Presiding Officer:iiDo you yield, Senator Perry? Senator Perry:iiI yield. Presiding Officer:iiYou re’ recognized, Dean. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A45

Senator Whitmire:iiThank you. Senator Perry, just a couple of questions and I ll’ save my remarks for closing, but would you not agree that this is probably one of the more complex issues that comes before this legislative body? Senator Perry:iiSo, I m’ going to answer that this way, not to skirt where I think you want me to talk about. The transgender issue is extremely complicated, no doubt. I heard testimony of parents with trans kids. We ve’ had this debate, unfortunately. That transgender issue and all of the things that we ve,’ as a society, are working through is a complicated area. On this issue, on women playing with biological women and men playing with biological men in their own peer groups is not that complicated to me. Senator Whitmire:iiWell, see that s’ where you and I really disagree and maybe I ought to still ask you questions. I need to save my remarks because I m’ so, based on the written expert testimony of not you or me, Senators, but medical professionals. In fact, you would admit most of what you say is just your opinion. Is it not? Senator Perry:iiNo, Sir. I would not. Senator Whitmire:iiWhere did you become such an expert on tri-gender athletics or the general topic of a transgender family? Senator Perry:iiSo, in testimony yesterday, in testimony or day before now, whichever it was, we had licensed counselors, people of the medical associations on both sides. Senator Whitmire:iiSo, now wait a minute– Senator Perry:iiSo, I want to make sure– Senator Whitmire:ii–most of the ones you want to quote, you invited as invited testimony. The ones that were opposed that I m’ relying on were two minutes of testimony. Senator Perry:ii–we had questions for those. Senator Whitmire:iiSir? Senator Perry:iiWe had questions for those. The very last table– Senator Whitmire:iiHow would you know– Senator Perry:ii–we had questions for those. Senator Whitmire:ii–this? You can t’ rewrite history. I was sitting there, in fact, I think if anything, we ought to strive to give folks more time when they traveled to Austin and have something to say on something that is so critical, more time, but you know that s–’ Senator Perry:iiSo– Senator Whitmire:ii–I m’ not the Chair at the time. That s,’ that s’ the discretion of the Chair– Senator Perry:ii–so to your question, when did I become an expert on physiology on– Senator Whitmire:ii–you re’ an, you just said you were an expert– A46 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Perry:ii–no, no, when did I, when did I come. I m’ not, I m’ not Charles Perry s’ facts and circumstances. I m’ looking at the results in competitive competitions from all around the country that clearly display, and then when you do take a look at the signs, it does show a distinct difference in body mass, bone density– Senator Whitmire:ii–but it s,’ would you not agree that the most frequent example you used, you keep talking about Connecticut. And we re’ not Connecticut and even when I questioned the UIL, he mentioned Connecticut, Kansas, and Alaska. We re’ none of those. We re’ Texas. It s’ being handled. And let me ask you, you talk about, you and Senator Hall talk about it being a safety issue. Have you considered the safety issue of the transgender children that turn to suicide when they re’ not included in team activities? It s’ documented that the team sports and activities for youngsters that are transgender, it helps them deal with their sexual identity. It helps them with their family, their siblings, their classmates, and when you deny that, there is a strong propensity to commit suicide. There s’ a safety issue– Senator Perry:iiSo, let me– Senator Whitmire:ii–do you not agree, that we ought to be worried about? Senator Hall s’ going to worry about, and I haven t’ heard of an example, but he s’ worried about unfairness of muscle mass and maybe somebody gets injured in competition. Not very well documented, but I can document, Senator Perry, that they lead by high percentages per capita in suicides, and the best, according to the experts, the best way to address that is reduce bullying, segregation, discrimination, by allowing them in these team sports. Wouldn t’ you agree that that suicide prevention is probably more important then anything in terms of safety that Senator Hall talked about? Senator Perry:iiSo, you ve’ got two or three questions and statements built– Senator Whitmire:iiI know, I know. Senator Perry:ii–into that, and I m’ going to unpack them the best I can. So, specifically on the UIL question that we all asked. Senator Whitmire:iiYeah. Senator Perry:iiIf we re’ honest with the answer, we can t’ track and tell you what this issue in Texas is because we have not tracked it. Secondly, if you had been there for the whole hearing, at the end you would have heard the reason for Senate Bill 2 regarding birth certificates. Senator Whitmire:iiWell, first of all– Senator Perry:iiSo that– Senator Whitmire:ii–I don t’ have to be on the floor. I m’ not on that committee. Senator Perry:iiI know that. Senator Whitmire:iiI was there because the voices of the people that disagree with you needed to be– Senator Perry:iiRight. Senator Whitmire:ii–represented, so I joined the committee– Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A47

Senator Perry:iiWelcomed. Senator Whitmire:ii–when I left there, because you know we had multiple issues in this building at that time. I was watching it– Senator Perry:iiBut if you re’ going to ask the question and make the statement, I m’ going to have a response. Senator Whitmire:ii–you tell me I should have been there at the end. You don t,’ what I was doing– Senator Perry:iiNo– Senator Whitmire:ii–if I was sitting in my office. Senator Perry:ii–no, my point is, my point is the benefit of being on that committee and having that day of hearing, at the very end, the way you go about getting your birth certificate in Texas modified, changed or re-quote new– Senator Whitmire:iiYeah, I heard that– Senator Perry:ii–that doesn t’ reflect that– Senator Whitmire:ii–I heard that. Senator Perry:ii–is to a point where you would never know what this issue is. Now secondly, to your point– Senator Whitmire:iiAnd– Senator Perry:ii–absolutely. Senator Whitmire:ii–neither would you. Hey, and neither will you, by the way. Senator Perry:iiWhat s’ that? Senator Whitmire:iiKnow the depth of the issue and the numbers that we re’ talking about. It may not be near as big a problem as you re’ making it out to be. Senator Perry:iiThirty-eight percent and 3,800 percent increase by DSHS s’ own numbers that they re’ having kids have their birth– Senator Whitmire:iiIt is– Senator Perry:ii–certificates changed. Senator Whitmire:ii–have you ever thought about why that is? Because Texas with the rest of our country is moving in the direction of being more open– Senator Perry:iiOkay. Senator Whitmire:ii–for equality. So, sure, more people– Senator Perry:iiI, and back to your– Senator Whitmire:ii–are applying and becoming transgender– Senator Perry:ii–back to your statement– A48 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Whitmire:ii–athletes. Because most people outside of maybe your region, without personalizing. Certainly in the region I represent, it is more acceptable to talk about it, to come out of the closet, to be accepted as an equal in society and, particularly your children are treated like– Senator Perry:iiI want to be clear– Senator Whitmire:ii–other children. Senator Perry:ii–I want to be clear. You can t’ make statements and walk off from them, but I have no problems with a child that s’ in that role having equality and things of that nature, but what you re’ asking the state to do is make that equality at the expense of other kids that don t’ find themselves in that situation. And– Senator Whitmire:iiAnd let me ask you– Senator Perry:ii–on the suicide issue, absolutely, every, there s’ not a body in this Capitol– Senator Whitmire:iiI ve’ heard that. Senator Perry:ii–that thinks that s’ a problem. Senator Whitmire:iiI ve’ heard that. Senator Perry:iiSecondly, do you consider, do you consider the child that s’ since seventh grade has been on every athletic competition since they were old enough to be on one, competing full force, up until the point of their graduation, that if this situation if not mitigated will lose that and they, effect are the suicide opportunity that presents. Senator Whitmire:iiWell, the data doesn t’ support that, but let me just answer, did I consider it? Sure, I consider all aspects of the subject– Senator Perry:iiAs I do. Senator Whitmire:ii–and the impact it s’ going to have on our communities. And you know how I govern. I ve’ done it for almost 50 years. I look at the greater good. That s’ why I m’ on this Senate floor today. I had options to not even be in here, but the greater good is to be here and to participate and to challenge you and some of your premises on behalf of the transgender families of the State of Texas. And when we get ready to close, I ve’ got about two letters I want to read, not my opinion, not your opinion, but people that live this every day that are begging you not to do what you re’ doing because they think it will lead to suicide and the unacceptance of their children that quite frankly, we pray to a God on this floor every day and these transgender children are His creations, and let s’ not forget that when we look at how we re’ treating this subject. Thank you for allowing me to ask you questions. (President in Chair) President:iiSenator Kolkhorst. What purpose? Senator Kolkhorst:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. To ask a few questions of the author. President:iiDo you yield? Senator Perry:ii I yield. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A49

Senator Kolkhorst:iiThank you. Dean, I want to thank you for coming to our hearing. That s’ the first thing I want to say, because as we gaveled in, the committee has six Republicans and three Democrats and the three Democrats were missing from that hearing, and I think your voice was really important, and I felt really good about you coming. I know you couldn t’ stay for the whole thing, and I know that you had asked me, you had a constituent who had waited all day. We had eight hours lou– we heard eight hours, a little bit over eight hours of testimony, and while every witness was limited to two minutes, many were asked questions, and we had, I thought, very good exchanges, sometimes very passionate exchanges on both sides. And we stayed and I know you had an, I think you had an interview at 6:30 and that s’ why you had to leave, and we always appreciate your voice. But you started with your questioning of Senator Perry as this is very complicated. And it is. It truly is very complicated. There is nothing easy. Senator Hall, you asked about Title IX. Obviously, I ve’ given speeches on this floor with tremendous emotion about how I feel about sports. The people that have gotten to watch, producing two athletes in my family, our offspring of Jimmy and I, both will have been college athletes. As something that I as a college and Jimmy as a college athlete, we take very seriously. You asked about Title IX when it was passed in 1972. No, I don t’ think that it complicated, it contemplated the bill that now Senator Perry is carrying today. So, Senator Perry, let me ask you this question. There have been people that have asked why are we doing this because it seems to not be an issue. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiThat s’ one of the prevailing sentiments. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSo, I m’ going to just stay with the UIL for now. So, the UIL does have a rule and I believe it s’ one of very few states that has a rule like this, but isn t’ it that the UIL has a rule that says whatever the sex is on your birth certificate that is the sport that you can compete in. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiThat is correct. Senator Kolkhorst:iiNow, there were some questions during the hearing, and I want to make sure that we clarify it because it got through eight-plus hours of testimony. It was, I think there was some misinformation. On Texas ’birth certificate, it lists sex, not gender. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiThat s’ correct. Senator Kolkhorst:iiOkay, so it s’ male, female, and then there is other and you spoke to the intersex issue that sometimes is not identifiable and then ultimately the parents make a choice. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Kolkhorst:iiBut our birth certificates in Texas are sex. Senator Perry:iiSex. Senator Kolkhorst:iiThat s’ what it lists. Senator Perry:iiBelieve it s’ box five, I m’ not sure. A50 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Kolkhorst:iiOkay, because that became kind of a question back and forth during the hearing. The other question I d’ like to ask is that the Department of State Health Services testified that the only way, and you ve’ mentioned it several times, but, but I want to make sure we clarify this because it was erroneous information during the hearing. The only way that your birth certificate can be changed is to have a sex operation. Senator Perry:iiSurgery. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSurgery. Senator Perry:iiPhysically, surgically. Senator Kolkhorst:iiThat s’ what was said in the hearing. Senator Perry:iiThat was from the state expert. Senator Kolkhorst:iiOkay. That is not true. Senator Perry:iiThat is absolutely not true. We knew that not to be true. Senator Kolkhorst:iiRight, and so I had a meeting with the Department of State Health Services yesterday and we clarified that. So, I think you have that information, but, and many parents of transgender children testified that that s’ not true, so I appreciate those parents and their clarification. So, in Texas, the way to change your birth certificate, if you want to transitition from a male to a female or a female to a male, is it correct that you have to have a district judge, a court order from a district– Senator Perry:iiYou have– Senator Kolkhorst:ii –state district– Senator Perry:ii –to have a court order– Senator Kolkhorst:ii–from the state district? Senator Perry:ii–with a physician statement. Senator Kolkhorst:iiThat s’ right. So, you have the judge, you go before a district judge and you have to present information from a doctor. Senator Perry:iiPetition with a physician statement. Senator Kolkhorst:iiNow, some of the parents testified that you can be socially transitioning or you can be, you can do, you can be taking hormones, blockers and such, if you re’ going from, from male to female. But you can get your birth certificate changed without any modification either through therapeutics, pharmaceutical drugs, or through surgery. Is that correct? Senator Perry:iiNo physical or pharmaceutical requirement to request and have that granted at a court level. Senator Kolkhorst:iiYeah. So, I wanted to clarify that for anyone that was watching because it was very confusing for what the state testified as, as to what then parents testified as. Parents were right. You can socially transition. So, in Texas UIL, the only thing that the UIL requires to determine what s,’ if you play as a male or a female is on the birth certificate. Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A51

Senator Perry:iiThat is correct. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSo, someone could transition socially under, you know, the doctor s’ purview and present that to a state district judge. Then that is submitted to the Department of State Health Services and that birth certificate is changed. Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Kolkhorst:iiSo, ultimately the State of Texas has no rules that govern testosterone levels or anything else, and we did have someone from UIL that testified to that. Senator Perry:iiCorrect. Senator Kolkhorst:iiOkay. So, in your statements today, you said there has been a 3,800 percent increase. Can you restate that for me? Senator Perry:iiYeah, so after yesterday or the day before s’ hearing, you know, you get questions sometimes you don t’ have the answers to. So, I wanted to see if we could see a trending up and since, so from 2018 to 2019 there was a 3,800 percent increase in corrections on birth certificates to reflect different sexes that were not clerical errors, so, for my understanding. Senator Kolkhorst:iiOf the eight, do you have ages on them? Senator Perry:iiI have ages, but I m’ not sure it s’ the same makeup, but I see ages going from zero, which would probably be the intersex issues and stuff, maybe, maybe not, all the way down to age 17. Sixteen s’ 122– Senator Kolkhorst:iiPercent? Or no, 122– Senator Perry:ii–no, actual. Seventeen was 111; 15-year-olds were 94, 14 now interesting enough, three, four, five, six, seven, has 80, 50 kids in that category. Senator Kolkhorst:iiAnd that s’ in one year. Senator Perry:iiYeah, no, that was different, that was 214, I believe. So– Senator Kolkhorst:iiThank you. Senator Perry:ii–so, but all over the board, age-wise, with the larger numerators and dominators being that 16, 17-year range getting close to that and 15, but I think, I think to argue that it s’ not an issue before we have a way to track whether or not it s’ going to be an issue. And whether, you know, we use forecast a lot in things we do and you see an influx of biological males moving to biological female sports activities, you can kind of play that out as to where that will look or what that might look like 10 years out. Senator Kolkhorst:iiAnd so, to that, could you tell us what the UIL testified on. While they don t’ keep statistics, think Dr.iHarrison testified that in the last 6 months. What did he say on that on just the last six months? Senator Perry:iiHe s’ seen an, an increase in requests by districts on how to handle birth certificate changes and issues that are beginning to present, and I guess the questions are becoming more apparent in the district and they re,’ and he s’ being consulted on what does that mean UIL-wise. A52 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Kolkhorst:iiSo, there are more requests from districts and there is an uptick on the number of people that are requesting to play in certain sports. This last session, Senator Creighton carried a bill. Do you remember Senate Bill 1385? Senator Perry:iiNot at all. Senator Kolkhorst:iiI know. All the– Senator Perry:iiI don t’ remember numbers. Senator Kolkhorst:ii–numbers and, and, and so Senate Bill 1385 is the name, image, and likeness bill. Many of us spoke on that. I, at the end, ended my remarks before I did vote present-not voting, because I m’ going to to have a college athlete and as I just hope that they play for the love of the game. The name, image, and likeness bill that Senator Creighton and other states had passed is a movement to allow college athletes to make money on their name, image, and likeness because they re’ playing for that college. Of course, many colleges, most colleges, I don t’ think Ivy League, but most colleges give you an athletic scholarship, which many of us, me included, was the benefactor of that. And I, boy, I thought it was pretty cool that I got my college paid for playing a sport, but it s’ kind of moved beyond that, so stay with me a second. Supreme Court, did you realize just recently ruled– Senator Perry:iiReaffirmed that, right. Senator Kolkhorst:ii–yeah, yeah, and so the NCAA, not unlike Senator Hinojosa, many oftentimes stays pretty silent on controversial issues when they should just step into that role. I have a great deal of frustration at times about the inaction, but the Supreme Court has ruled, and so I think the complication right now, and I agree with every Member, of Senator Zaffirini, you asked excellent questions. So, did Senator Hinojosa, and we certainly can never doubt the passion by which Senator Whitmire speaks on this issue and has consistently for his constituents and for people across the great State of Texas. And we appreciate that leadership because this is complicated. And we heard from parents of transgender children about how difficult this is, and I do not doubt that because I have been in this discussion for many years now. But we also discussed sometimes you have to pass bills because you have to look forward. And so, the reason I bring up Senate Bill 1385 is Senate Bill 1385 and what the Supreme Court just ruled is more than just about playing a high school sport and making the cut or not. We did have testimony from coaches that actually came and spoke in favor of your bill. I had a coach stop by my office today, tell my staff, I m’ for that bill because I don t’ want girls to get edged out of their opportunity to play a high school sport. You even mentioned seventh or eighth grade. Sometimes I ve’ had great friends, we ve’ played basketball together in seventh grade and they just realized it wasn t’ their deal, and we laugh about early days. I went on and they went on different paths, but you also get cut from those teams. There s’ only so many slots. So, in essence, not just that, but looking beyond that and the big business that sports has become, I think, as Senator Campbell spoke to, one of the world class athletes, and what Title IX in 1972 attempted to do, and still I believe of the heart and soul of that, although executive orders are always trying to change it. What Congress tried to do then was to give opportunities to girls like me to get to play a sport and maybe even Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A53 go on beyond. And so, as we say do you agree this is complicated and could eventually be driven more and more by money because of the opportunities presented by sports? Senator Perry:iiI absolutely do think that. You know better than anybody being a legislator. Find the money, see the problem, fix the problem, so to speak. The more money that engages in any issue, ultimately there s’ opportunity for corruption and other things that come along with it. But in this case, you literally have the opportunity to steal something from something, from somebody that they had no ability to stop, if you will. So, I think it s’ that important. I do have a question for you. Lois Kate is a cheerleader or was, I think TCU. I think she s’ graduated. In all of her cheerleading years, did you ever have, and if you did you can answer it, but was Lois ever the one throwing the guy up and catching him? Senator Kolkhorst:iiNo, she was the one being thrown up in the air. Senator Perry:iiThere you go. Have you, I mean, I m’ sure there are those cases, but you know, to make an argument that males are not born by birthright with physiological advantages I think is just, again, a false narrative that people want to get off the issue today. With the transgender kids and all the families we hear and this, unfortunately, is going to do it again probably, and we ve’ done it already, more than anybody would like. The issue today is about fairness and equality in women s’ sports. Did, did you play, and I did, you know, unsanctioned sports leagues until you got to UIL. I mean, I remember Lubbock Baptist area association s’ T-ball, you know, with my kids. When I was a kid, we had Little League, you know, and they were outside the purview of sanctioned sports activity. Is that something that s’ still available to all kids, even all the way through their colleague career, I mean intramurals was, I played co-rec in coed and straight up, men and women teams still separated, too, on the intermediate league, but there wasn t’ the high stakes. Senator Kolkhorst:iiYeah. Senator Perry:iiSo, is there opportunities for kids that don t’ seek to reach that competitive advantage that are creating some of this problem that we see coming for kids that are going to be cheated out of life on potential. There are other opportunities for kids to get that same benefit that we all did through competitive sports. Is there not? Senator Kolkhorst:iiYeah, there, there certainly are club sports, and as you ve’ said intramurals and good opportunities for folks. Senator Zaffirini made a suggestion that I ve’ certainly, you know, pondered. It s’ funny, you saw me smiling when you said that, because this, again I have say is a complicated issue, but at the heart and soul of it, I truly believe is a women s’ rights issue. Senator Perry:iiI think that s–’ Senator Kolkhorst:iiI happen to know someone that can throw a baseball about 95 miles an hour, and he s’ a male. Senator Perry:iiYup. A54 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day

Senator Kolkhorst:iiAnd he has no business being in women s’ sports, and there is a difference, and one of things that we talked about while men can dunk a basketball, and I think we ve’ had one female be able to dunk a basketball, it doesn t’ make men s’ sports better than women s’ sports, and I don t’ ever want that to be confused. They re’ just different, but we need to let our females succeed in the ways that they want. And I know that the public debate will continue on, but when I transition, I am a female. Senator Perry:iiWell– Senator Kolkhorst:iiScience says– Senator Perry:ii–I would say it– Senator Kolkhorst:ii–differently– Senator Perry:ii–I d’ say it this way– Senator Kolkhorst:ii–science says differently– Senator Perry:ii–we ve’ recognized the physiological differences since the dawn of time for so many different areas, but in sport specifically, we have made accommodations for a lesser, physical, physiological makeup in so many sports. It s’ just not accurate to say that they don t’ exist today because the narrative s’ changing. Thank you. Senator Kolkhorst:iiThank you, Senator, and thank you to our Senators and to everyone that came and testified the other day in a respectful and, again, emotional and passionate way on both sides. We saw that on both sides. Thank you. President:iiSenator Zaffirini, for what purpose? Senator Zaffirini:iiTo speak in opposition of the bill. President:iiYou re’ recognized. Senator Zaffirini:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident. Mr.iPresident and Members, I rise respectfully in opposition to Senate Bill 2. I believe this legislation is not only unnecessary but also has the potential to harm transgender students throughout Texas. It has been eye-opening to hear hours of testimony first by the so-called restroom bill during the regular and special session in 2017, and last session about transgender Texans and sports. We learned about the beatings, humiliations, bullying, and insults endured by transgender men and women and even transgender children. I simply don t’ understand why this bill is needed. There is no evidence to support the idea that children willingly would endure the hardships of being transgender to gain an advantage playing high school sports. What s’ more, requiring transgender youth to play only on teams designated for the biological sex on their birth certificates would deprive many of them from the social and personal benefits of participating in sports. As with the restroom bill in 2017, this type of legislation simply isolates and stigmatizes transgender children, which could have tragic results. Studies have shown that the suicide rates among the transgender community is 40 percent. Think of the anguish and pain that would result in a 40 percent suicide rate for any group including for the 125,000 transgender Texans in a population of 29.2 million. What s’ more, legislation that empowers anyone to accuse a child of being on the wrong team also could be harmful to all children, not only to transgender children. If anyone, for Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A55 example, can point a finger at a girl and force her to undergo tests to prove her gender, a child who doesn t’ fit someone s’ expectations of femininity could be humiliated and bullied for wanting to play sports. I would favor legislation that supports transgender Texans but will continue to oppose any bill that could cause them harm in any way. For these and other reasons I, respectfully, will vote "no" on Senate Bill 2. Thank you, Mr.iPresident and Members. President:iiThank you, Senator Zaffirini. Senator Whitmire. Senator Whitmire:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident and Members. I want to thank Senator Kolkhorst for her remarks and allowing me to participate as a committee member yesterday. You showed great understanding yesterday and for you to allow one of my constituents, LouiWeaver, to come down because of his scheduling restraints, I appreciate it and I know he does. Senator Perry, I have respect for you. I know you feel strongly as some of your, our colleagues do. I will always try to be senatorial in our relationship because I still have a vision and hopes of you learning more about my position as I ll’ continue to grow and learn about yours. I, I did ask you during the regular and I ll’ repeat it. We need to explore all aspects of this, talking to families, professionals from both points of view because it s’ an issue that you ve’ pointed out has continued to grow in recognition of transgender families and the concerns of non-transgender families. You did mention that it s’ growing in momentum, the discussion and the presence of transgender athletes. I personally think part of that is from the proposed legislation and it s’ not just in Texas but nationally which leads to more discussion and people from different viewpoints coming forward and making it more a part of our society and discussions. I do rise in opposition because I think, there again, as I mentioned while ago, the greater good. You have actually documented the concerns. I can remember the, the weightlifter said that she had worked for years to prepare for competition but a transgender female competitor with a male birth certificate had an advantage. I mean that s’ her belief. She is under oath and, and she s’ entitled to her point of view. I m’ concerned about the letters, calls, and the testimony and people that I know believe and document and I trust is where I ve’ learned some of my knowledge. And I ve’ got a lot to learn about the subject, that the upheaval in their family just by this proposed legislation is so great. You know, I asked them yesterday for a reason, how many times have you been to the Capitol to testify in opposition, four or five, six times. They ll’ probably be here again. It s’ like your family unit s’ under attack. And if we would put our self in that position, we can see the heartache, the danger. For a fact, their children are suicidal when they feel bullied, ostracized. And, of course, you re’ right, the conversation probably, I heard the testimony of the volleyball player, Texas, West Texas A&M. He was concerned and felt like it had impacted her life. So, I think that just shows we ve’ got a lot of work to do. I did mention, because I listen closely to Dr.iCampbell believes, and I think as a man of faith, you believe our daily actions are controlled by our heavenly Father. You ve’ heard me reference when she got reelected, I congratulated her and I said the same God that reelected you and reelected me. And she said, well, it shows God has a sense of humor. I point that out is that she believes and I believe, as you do, that God, we re’ God s’ creations. So, I think we have to accommodate all of God s’ creations, and the transgender children are certainly God s’ creations, and their families worship the same God I, that you and I do. So, we have to continue to be sensitive to all points of A56 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day view. And where you re’ trying to protect one non-gender athlete child so am I. I just think the difference is I m’ dealing and fighting for a youth that I ll’ read in a moment from a psychologist and professional pediatric doctor says will turn to suicide if we exclude them from organized sports. So, I know you have the votes depending on how the session continues. We may have this discussion again but you actually, after my constituent, Lou Weaver, testified, went over, said hello, thanked him for being here. That s,’ that s’ senatorial and I thank you. I just hope we can continue to grow and learn more about it because the subject is certainly not going away. Let me just quickly read from a pediatric doctor who wrote me saying, forcing transgender children to play on teams according to their sex assigned at birth rather than the gender they affirm undermines their ability to feel belonging in their community in terms of the physical and emotional benefits of playing sports and the potentially traumatic experience. We know that children allowed to affirm their gender identity by living with the name and pronouns that are true for them have a lower risk of suicide than those prevented from doing so. Sports participation helps athletes develop self-esteem, correlates positively with the overall mental health, and appears to have a protective effect against suicide. And transgender athletes are no exception. LGBTQ athletes report 20 percent lower rates of depression, express depressive systems than those who did not participate in sports. So, I m’ trying to be a, the voice of transgender families, but that gentleman is an expert. And in closing, from a family: My 11-year-old daughter is transgender. She has been on the swim team and played baseball since age five. Corbin was born male. At age four would bring up how unfair it was that she was not a girl. For five years she swam on the boys ’swim team. There was always a big fuss to remove the shirt but nearly, but in the early years we lacked understanding as to why she struggled with this so much. By age nine she was asking us to use the pronoun, she pronouns but was still swimming on the boys ’ team because she loved it so much. I have pictures of her holding up blue ribbons with a long face. After the season ended, I knew Corbin wouldn t’ swim on the boys ’team again. It wasn t’ worth it. So, she skipped a year. She skipped baseball as well. A full year of socializing and learning how to operate as a team was lost because she didn t’ feel comfortable playing sports in the gender she identified as. This last fall before social transitioning at school, Corbin asked to play baseball as a girl. It was scary for all of us. We didn t’ know how our community would react. Due to COVID, most of the families hadn t’ seen Corbin for over a year. Day one of practice she bravely tied her long hair back into a ponytail and went into the same dugout with the same kids that she had played with over the years. There were a few questions from parents and kids but zero negativity. Her coaches were very supportive, and in turn her team and her team s’ parents followed. Corbin continues to play Little League baseball. Wanting to return to swim team, we inquired about swimming on the girls ’team but was told the league says they follow UIL rules, follow UIL rules and swimmers have to swim based on their biological sex on your birth certificate. Corbin was denied the ability to swim based on her gender identity. Even at the college level, most of the kids that play sports will go on to become something other than an athlete. What team sports brings to children is much more than competition. It provides a platform to learn valuable life Tuesday, August 10, 2021 SENATE JOURNAL A57 skills. This is a family that wrote to me and I appreciate you listening because they know what this legislation would do to their family. Mr.iPresident, I will yield at this time and thank you for allowing me to have the floor. President:iiThank you, Senator Whitmire. Senator Perry, you re’ recognized on final passage. Senator Perry:iiThank you, Mr.iPresident, and thank you, Dean Whitmire. And I love you just as much before we started this conversation, and I ll’ love you just the same when we re’ done. I love the body, I love what the body represents. And I wish we weren t’ having these conversations. And those two letters kind of highlight some of the concerns I have for our team selections that have a limited number of slots, and you see a kid that don t’ meet the slot because a transgender male, I mean transgender female, takes one. So, it is complicated when you get into that level and, yes, we need to have that conversation. On the safety issue, I think it s’ pretty black and white. Whether we want to agree or not on this floor, there is some safety factors that we cannot deny that I think we would be naive to ignore. That said, I think there is some options down the road that if it s’ not a sanctioned or an event where some child may lose something at the big, if they re’ truly that high level competitive athlete. So, we can have those debates and those conversations and look at alternatives. I spoke to Senator Kolkhorst about intramural slash teams that you get all the benefits of competitive athletics, it doesn t’ ignore the safety or erase the safety concerns for me at every level. But there are paths I will say that I think we probably should explore that doesn t’ put the competitive athletic that s’ played their entire life only to have it stolen by competitive advantage that was granted at birth. And those are some of the things that I think Senate Bill 2 addresses today. I want to be clear, there s’ not a body on this Chamber, there s’ not a body in this, in this Capitol and, as far as that business, anybody I know that would ever want to see a kid harmed because they couldn t’ compete, because they couldn t,’ they didn t’ get to play as they re’ identified, but I also don t’ want to see the other. And you say walk a mile in their shoes, put a face on it, is something you always say. My daughter was not a collegiate level competitor. She didn t’ get that birthright. She was short and she was an overachiever, but she made all-district post in a decent size school after ACL surgery her junior and senior year. She holds the city record in hurdles and went to regional in hurdles after an ACL surgery. I know for a fact she would not hold those today if she had to compete against a male counterpart. And it was something big for her because she didn t’ just do it, she overachieved, she overcame adversity to get there. My son was an underachiever. He could ve’ played anywhere he want and played NCAA Division I baseball, maybe basketball, a mid-level deal. But he didn t’ want to do that. That s’ okay. He didn t’ have to worry about being that guy that got beat out by somebody that had a competitive advantage because it was always guys. So, it is complicated at that level, but on the safety level we can t’ ignore the fact it s’ not that complicated. So, I m’ willing to partner and work and I ve’ never ever, never denied a visit from a trans or LGBTQ committee. Any, anybody is open, I have an open door policy and I m’ always willing to listen. I don t’ know that I ll’ be swayed to change perspectives, but information s’ always good, and you have a personal growth when you do those things. So, I m’ here for that. But this is a big issue whether we want to admit or not and it s’ just going to get bigger. And I don t’ want to see some injury that could ve’ A58 87th Legislature — Second Called Session 3rd Day been prevented because of it. At the same time, I think there are venues and avenues that we can explore together as a Senate and as a UIL and as other non-sanctioned associations out there that do, that maybe we can find that happy balance to where everybody benefits from competitive athletics. I played them. There s’ no, no way that I would ever underestimate the benefits of competitive athletics. The level, I think, of competition is what we probably need to have a conversation about. What does that really look like? And what does that, what does that rob from those that are competing for a long time and training to get somewhere to only have it removed? So, let s’ talk about those going forward. There s’ not a guy or a person or a lady on this floor that I don t’ respect immensely, and I d’ always heard how special the Senate was from Montford, from Hance, from Duncan. I bet E. L. Short one time, but you could just sense that after you d’ been through it, those guys understood it. And I get it today just as much as I always have, but I think we re’ here to address hard issues that we didn t’ see 10 years ago, we didn t’ see 20 years ago. But they re’ here today and we got to deal with it and this is the attempt at starting to deal with that.