sign in sign up
<<
Home , Countdown to Ecstasy, David Palmer (vocalist), Denny Dias, Flying Cowboys, Gary Katz, Jim Hodder (musician)

North Hollywood, California 1989

r Becker is a mysterious guy for a number of reasons. As the nonsinging be, of Becker and Fagen, the core of , his contributions to songs were never certain. More than a decade now since the release of ir last , Gaucho, it's still difficult to go back over their' records and mguish Becker's ideas from Fagen's. This mystery was fortified by the fact that for many years, Steely Dan ex- only in the studio, so fans had no way of seeing Becker in action. And king at the album photos didn't help at all: Donald and Walter made a t of appearing as distant as possible by wearing shades and never smiling, ndencv that led even to believe that they simply weren't nice. (In fact, they were just trying to look cool, as Walter explains.) Then there are the songs. Since they met at in , ker and Fagen shared an enthusiasm for expanding the potential of the ng both in terms of lyrical and harmonic content. Since Donald's nasal New Irkvoice was better suited for irony than sincerity, they veered off the well- den path of introspective songwriting others were taking in the seventies to create brilliant oppositions of words and music: succinct, sardonic lyrics set to the slickest, tightest a pop song could hold. They shared a passion, border- on obsession, to push the limits of what songs can do while staying within e realm of rock; they explored previously unexplored lyrical areas with a wit d literate ingenuity few others possessed at the time. And they stretched the 430 ON SONG BECKER 431 harmonic potential of the pop song (partially via the use of their "Mu chord," 'Surf and/or Die" and "Book of Liars" make it evident that Walter Becker detailed herein) without ever abandoning the visceral rhythms of rock. the goods to guide the Dan every bit as powerfully as Fagan. They also swam against the current of spontaneous, haphazard rock reo These days he makes his home over the horizon in Hawaii, though he cordings to set a new standard in terms of record productions. Disbanding their a little office in North Hollywood, and it's there that we met. He's a original lineup after the third album, they evolved to the essential core of spoken, intellectual man who was willing to discuss Steely Dan at length, Becker and Fagen only, surrounded by the brightest satellites of the rock and jazz worlds. lng us a rare perspective into the interior of one of the world's greatest Ids. Gaining a reputation as studio tyrants (which Walter dismisses as inaccu. rate), Becker and Fagen cooked up tracks that are at once burning and pris- When working in Steely Dan, you said you would sugarcoat subversive tine; hot, sizzling jazz textures with the tightest, most precise rhythmic foundations imaginable. ents in your songs. Was that a conscious aim to mask the message of songs? Steely Dan, whose name was derived from a sexual toy out of William Not so much messages, but using jazz harmonies in pop songs. At that Burroughs' , started in 1972 and immediately established a sophis- e the people in the rock audience, if they were aware they were hearing tication in their songwriting starting with their first album, Can't Buy a Thrill ething that sounded like jazz, weren't too happy about it. This is something and continuing through , , Katy Lied, The t Donald [Fagen] and I always had to struggle with, to incorporate some Royal Scam, and culminating with Aja, their last album of the seventies. Any. onic elements that were more sophisticated than and still one who ever decries the lack of good music in that decade need only read that list to be silenced. Iveit sound like rock and roll. So I don't think we were deliberately trying to hide things, but we were In 1980, their last album of original material, Gaucho, was released and the . .gto combine disparate elements in a way that would make them work. So Dan was done. Fagen released Nightfiy in 1982, a solo album that had the ,e of the things we would have to do was to make these little moments of sound of Steely Dan (since it featured Donald's distinctive voice and many of onic density more palatable, integrate them well into what was going on. the same musicians) but lacked a level of darkness and irony in the lyrics, a d also there were sometimes very strange lyrics for a pop song; rather than possible clue to the Becker influence. ke the setting reflect the strangeness of the lyric, it would seem to work best He was born in New York on February 20, 1950, and knew us if the setting was relatively polished and flowing. for a couple of years before they decided to become partners in 1969. Their first collaborative effort was a score for the film You Gotta Walk It Like You Talk When you began your collaboration, did you ever discuss the kinds of It starring . Attempting in vain to peddle their songs around New gs you wanted to accomplish in your songs? York, they eventually landed jobs as support musicians for Jay And Sometimes we'd have an idea for a bizarre thing we wanted to do ,in ad- The Americans, most famous for their hit "Cara Mia Mi." They met producer nee. I think we both knew we wanted to write smart, sophisticated, witty . ds of songs. at the time as well as guitarist Jeff "Skunk" Baxter, and Katz used his connections at L.A.'s to get them a songwriting gig. Even Was there any artist the two of you were emulating at the time? then, though, their songs proved to be too unique to sell to other artists, and Not as writers, no. Looking back, the songs that we were writing were in- Katz interceded again to get them their own record deal. Along with Skunk, uenced by the overall tenor of the times. Like everyone else, there was a Bob they enlisted guitarist , drummer and a lead vocalist- Ian influence and there were some folky things we did, The Band was hap. -who was eventually completely replaced as lead vocalist by pening, that kind of stuff was influential. Fagen. Their debut album, Can't Buy a Thrill was a success, fueled by the hit Jazz was always a big influence because Donald and I were both jazz fans. "Do It Again," and Steely Dan was on its way. It's surprising that you mention Dylan and The Band, whose recordings . At the time of our interview, Becker mentioned that he didn't have "the em so spontaneous compared to the precise tightness of Steely Dan. luxury to wish" he had a better singing voice, and openly contemplated record. That's something that just evolved. Coming from a time when people just ing his own solo album. "I saw how much fun Rickie had making her album," rew things together and went into the studio and let things happen, that he said of , the Rickie Lee Jones record he produced, "and I've seemed like a logical progression to us. To get some of the tightness and preci- been wanting to do it myself" ion that certain kinds of jazz had. Since then, he carried through with that promise by recording the glorious That influenced us in that kind of perfectionism ... and then, you know, 11 Tracks of Whacks, his first and only solo record, and it's shed a lot of light pure neurotic drive took over at a certain point, and we ran on that pretty well into the mystery of Walter Becker. Since Steely Dan's songs were all projected for a few years. through the Fagan persona, it was easy to assume he was the guiding spirit of Is there any way of musically explaining how you achieved that tight. their songwriting. This record proves them wrong; brilliantly inventive songs ness? Does it mostly have to do with the lock between the bass and drums? 432 SONGWRITERS ON SONGWRITING 433

Yeah, we would spend many, many hours just trying to get things to be exteriry. But whole-tone dissonances like that are quite awkward on guitar ex- rhythmically precise. And especially when you're overdubbing things, layer after cept in certain open chord positions. layer, that's very important. I would say that was a general trend in the seven- When you started using that chord, did you make a decision that it ties in record production up to and culminating in drum machines, where you would be a signature chord for Steely Dan? have absolute and utter precision, although in many cases you have absolutely We just did it so much that it ended up that way. And as time went on, no groove because it's a machine. we developed other chord alterations that became associated strongly with Back before the days of drum machines, how did you communicate what we did. And [Fagen] continues to explore the fringes of tonal organiza- your ideas to drummers? tion; harmonic stuff that still sounds tonal but is as expanded as it can be. I'm kind of a drum fteak myself so I would always have a pretty good vi- Are there other chords you can name that defined the Steely Dan sion of what I wanted. We would describe what we wanted to a drummer, listen sound? to what he did, and then take it from there. But in the case of The particular chord that people have mentioned to me is a chord where there was no point in having any ideas because he was going to do something you have, in the key of C, an E in the bass, a D, a G and a C on top. It's an that you couldn't really imagine. And he was the kind of a guy who could look extension of the "Mu chord," if you will, but you move the third, the E, into at a chart and see a record in his mind's eye. He would put it together and the bass. So it's a C-major chord with an E in the bass. [As well as the major make it orderly, make the transitions work. If he found something he liked, he second.] I've been told that in some circles this is known as the "Steely Dan would use that over and over and give it structure in that way. chord." It's a chord we used over and over and now it's become kind of a ge- That's also surprising to hear, because you and Fagen have a reputation neric fusion cliche harmony. There's a lot more sophisticated harmonic stuff for being studio tyrants and telling each musician exactly what to play. going on now than there used to be, so a lot of this stuff is in the public do- Not at all. We would go in with a chart that showed Donald's chord main. voicings, and Donald would usually go through the keyboard chart with the keyboard player. The keyboard parts, in most cases, were so integral to what we Do you see Steely Dan as being responsible for that progression? were doing that a lot of the ingredients had to be there in that way. But then No, I think that was inevitable, and I think that the fact that keyboard the keyboard player was free to articulate and add things to that, so there was players are so important now is responsible for that, because those are all a lot of just blowing. And that's basically what was written. No bass parts were things that are more likely to be outgrowths of keyboard structure than fret- written. board structure, as you well know as a guitar player trying to deal with some of these things. It's very hard. The guitar players had nothing written for them and they would come up with their own parts. We would listen and suggest things but there certainly You don't feel that Steely Dan set a higher standard than people were wasn't any score. trying to reach at the time? Would you record bass, drums and keyboards simultaneously? I think we were trying to be as musically sophisticated as we could and Yes, usually bass, drums, keyboards, guitar. Yeah. that wasn't really a priority for a lot of people and still isn't. A lot of people want things to be as rootsy and gutsy as possible, which is very valid, too. You mentioned writing out the chord voicings for your songs. I've been intrigued by what you and Fagen called, in your songbook, the "Mu chord." In most collaborations, it's clear who wrote what. With Yes, the "Mu chord." Probably the less said about that, the better. Becker and Fagen, it's a mystery who contributed what to each song. Why is that? Why? We were writing together for such a long time that we really adapted to It was kind of a joke, that name. In the late sixties when we first started ne another. We had a tremendous rapport from the very beginning of our col- writing together, we would write or play very simple tunes and the way that we boration, where we knew what we wanted to do and we weren't working at came up with hopping up major triads was to add a second, usually right under oss-purposes. That became more and more the case. We developed a way of the third. This was one of the few alterations that you could do to a major orking together that really combined our sensibilities. There were a lot of chord and still have it sound like a major chord and not a jazz chord. things that I never learned because Donald already knew how to do them. I I don't remember why the name [laughs] "Mu chord." I'm sure there was could manipulate elements of his technique without having to master the same some very important reason at the time. ings myself A lot of the themes that we developed, we developed together. It's much harder to play on guitar than piano. Would you do it on gui- er the years, just bouncing things off of each other in ordinary conversations tar often? ,we'dbe having, and I still find this when I talk to Donald; it's very stimulating. That's something that I did where available on guitar. It's always available so he and I will be thinking along similar lines and we'll start to talk about on piano. We had Denny [Diaz] do it on the guitar because he had far greater omething and say, [shouts] "Yeah, that's right, yeah, yeah." 434 SONGWRITERS ON SONGWRITIN WALTER BECKER 435 I think that our collaboration was so well integrated that we weren't sur If it's okay with you, I'd like to name a few of them and see what if ourselves where one guy's contribution ended and the next guy's picked up. any, response you have to them Let's start with "Th B t Raz," , I I hi k h . . e as on g• Did you usually work on words and music at the same time? .a ways t in t e nice thing about "The Boston Rag" wa thar I k place in New York S "Th B R" s at It too Usually we would get a melody first and then stretch it or do what we L .. I' o. e oston ag was part of a state of mind. I haven't needed to do to accommodate words. seen on me m a ong ttrne, I wonder how he is. Hi, Lonnie! "Aja." You'd come up with a whole melody without any words? No, typically we'd get a chorus together first with lyrics. Ideally. Not hav "Aja" h,~d parts of another song in the middle of it that never made it that ing a chorus was a real pain in the ass. Once you had the chorus, then yo kind called Stand by the Seawall." The little chunk in the middle "A " . could construct the music for the verse, and then the melody for the verse, m of a song with a little s~ite in the center of it, and some of ~hat J~er~ and then actually write the verse. Try to make sense out of the chorus, if at ~arts of tha~ so~g and oth~r miscellaneous bits and pieces that Donald had la _ possible. [Laughs] Or otherwise illustrate it. ~faround m h lshhead; things he was going to write and never did and it ju~t a got assem ble d t at way. Did you two ever work separately on songs? Yeah, we'd get little pieces and then bring the pieces in. And put them to- "Time Out of Mind." gether. . W~ll, we both wrote that lyric. I remember writing that at Donald's house You mentioned how the music will suggest the words, and yet with ~ Ma~lbu. We wrote that before we moved back to New York, most of it. All Steely Dan the words and the music would often oppose each other or work a It. 0 we must have had that one sitting around for a while. on different levels at the same time. When you were working on songs, ''An~ World (That I'm Welcome To)." were you trying to achieve a marriage between the music and words or did Du I thm~ w.e wrote that, believe it or not, for . [Laughs] Or you try to have the two elements set each other off? s7 Sp~ngfield .. We had three or four songs that we wrote for some female Even if they work together by opposing each other, that's a marriage too. Viko1Stca t da~dsomebody -:e knew was producing. The key change in it seemed I The one thing underscores the other. Either by making it sound funny or mak- e a goo I ea at the time. ing something that does sound funny sound serious, by ironically combining "Rikki Don't Lose That Number." things, which we did often enough, I think. .It .wasn't written for Ri~kie Lee Jones. Nobody had any idea that there was Often songwriters experience ideas simply arriving. Do you have an idea a Riche Lee Jones at that time. Well, obviously, some people did It was just a where they come from? pop song. . No, but that is my experience. Maybe we're channeling Jeff Skunk Baxter "." [Laughs] . It was kind of an Owsleyesque figure that existed in our mind's eel Do you feel that ideas come from beyond you? think he was based on the idea of the outlaw-acid-chef of the sixties who had Yes, possibly. es.sentlaIIy outlived the social context of his speciality but of co h still an outlaw. ' urse, e was Any advice as to how to get in touch with that 'source? No, I think it's a matter of paying attention and diligence. And practicing "Through with Buzz." at what you do and doing it and doing it until the moment of relaxation comes [Laughter] The less said about that one, the better, I think. when you can be in touch with something like that. "Your Gold Teeth," Parts 1 and 2. When it's not flowing, do you stay there and work or do you leave it T~at seemed like enough, to do two versions of it. We couldn't think of alone? any ot er way to use that. [Laughs] I might add that the second version much In the past when I was working with Donald I had the discipline to stay ~ore c!osely resembles the original version, which we never recorded It was there and keep going. Even on days when you get absolutely nothing, and there Just a SImple sort of waltz. . are many of them, it's important to do it. You have to do that seemingly non- "." productive work to get to the point [snaps fingers] where things suddenly click Folk-rocky. Lots of fun. into place. You have to lay the groundwork for that. ''Any Major Dude." And in your experience do the best melodies seem to be generated by an instrument or separate from one? I thkink that was the second take. That was great. It was almost over before anyone new they were recording it. Most of my ideas are when I am playing an instrument rather than, you mean when I'm walking down the street? I have great ideas when I'm walking "Midnight Cruiser." down the street, but they're gone from moment to moment. [Laughs] Jimmy Hodder's vocal. Old song. 436 SONGWRITERS ON SONGWRITING

"Babylon Sisters." Very spooky song. I still like that one a lot. Some of them I don't like. That one I do. Rickie Lee Jones told me that she was a little scared about meeting you at first because you looked so tough in your photos and never smiled. I think it was just that we were trying to look cool, you know? [Laughs] It seemed like a good idea not to smile. But as Rickie found out, I'm actually a very jovial guy. We had a lot of laughs. She said you turned out to be quite nice, but that you are simply too intelligent for the rest of mankind. [Much laughter] That's very flattering. But not true? I think that's up to the rest of mankind to decide.

* * *