Da´Il E´Ireann

Vol. 683 Wednesday, No. 4 27 May 2009 DIÓSPO´ IREACHTAI´ PARLAIMINTE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES DA´ IL E´ IREANN TUAIRISC OIFIGIU´ IL—Neamhcheartaithe (OFFICIAL REPORT—Unrevised) Wednesday, 27 May 2009. Leaders’ Questions ……………………………… 677 Ceisteanna — Questions Taoiseach ………………………………… 681 Request to move Adjournment of Daíl under Standing Order 32 ……………… 696 Order of Business ……………………………… 696 Finance Bill 2009: Order for Report Stage …………………………… 703 Report and Final Stages …………………………… 703 Ceisteanna — Questions (resumed) Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Priority Questions …………………………… 720 Other Questions …………………………… 730 Message from Select Committee ………………………… 741 Adjournment Debate Matters …………………………… 741 Finance Bill 2009: Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage ………………… 742 Estimates for Public Services 2009: Message from Select Committee …………… 774 Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill: Second Stage (resumed) …………… 774 Private Members’ Business Early Childhood Care and Education: Motion (resumed) ……………… 781 Adjournment Debate Work Permits ……………………………… 802 Cross-Border Investment Programmes ……………………… 804 Social Welfare Benefits …………………………… 807 Special Educational Needs ………………………… 809 Questions: Written Answers …………………………… 811 DA´ IL E´ IREANN ———— De´ Ceádaoin, 27 Bealtaine 2009. Wednesday, 27 May 2009. ———— Chuaigh an Ceann Comhairle i gceannas ar 10.30 a.m. ———— Paidir. Prayer. ———— Leaders’ Questions. Deputy Enda Kenny: I welcome the fact that the Government made a formal announcement last night to the effect that consensus has been reached that a far greater contribution should be made by the religious orders and institutions in respect of the victims who were children in their care when they were abused. I also welcome the fact that two of the 18 religious institutions have made statements to the effect that it is their intention to increase substantially the contributions they can make in this regard. I hope that the other 16 institutions will follow suit very promptly. It is imperative that the negotiations referred to by the Taoiseach involve not only the religious orders and the Government, but the victims in particular of what were a whole series of heinous crimes. In other words, when the negotiations are taking place, they should be represented. I also believe the contributions to be made should be agreed and should be neither voluntary nor discretionary. It may be that some orders will have far greater reserves than others. During the negotiations, does the Taoiseach intend on the basis of accountability and transparency to seek full recourse from the religious institutions based on the extent of their assets, capital resources etc., so that in formulating a plan there can be some understanding of what precise contribution can be made by the individual bodies? The Taoiseach: On the first matter, it is my intention that the Government should meet with the victims’ groups and talk to them about the issues that pertain to them and listen to what they have to say as regards their general view on those matters. Regarding the discussions with the congregations, I welcome what has been said thus far by those bodies that have spoken over the past 24 hours. I hope that other congregations will similarly reflect on their positions and come forward. It is important in these discussions that trust and confidence are built up which will engender public confidence that any contributions to be made will be substantial, and commensurate with the resources the congregations have at their disposal. Deputy Enda Kenny: I asked the Taoiseach whether it was his position that the contributions to be made by the religious institutions would be agreed and neither be voluntary or discretionary, and that the victims and their representatives would be involved in the discussions. The Taoiseach is aware that the Charities Act 2009 has been passed by the Oireachtas. Section 53 of that Act gives the power to direct in writing a charitable organisation to provide the authority with such information as it may reasonably require to enable it to perform its functions. It is important that in formulating the extent of the contributions to be made that 677 Leaders’ 27 May 2009. Questions [Deputy Enda Kenny.] the Government and therefore the public are aware of the extent to which each institution can actually contribute. Obviously, some will have more resources than others. Is it the Taoiseach’s intention to seek a full audit either under the Charities Act or by some independent means, or does he propose to ensure that he is getting the full picture in respect of the agreed contributions to be arrived at? Deputy Shatter has referred on numerous occasions to the contributions to be made by the religious institutions. Is it intended to use some element of that money to provide resources to deal with the inadequacies of the systems that operate at present? I know the Taoiseach has appointed the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews, to formulate a plan by the end of July. There is, however, no priority within that plan. I do not understand why the Minister of State, who has not overly distinguished himself in his duties to date as regards Vietnam and so on, cannot debate the issues when the Daíl resumes in two weeks time and outline for the House the timescale and priorities he is according both for the victims and the current inadequacies. Will the Taoiseach also indicate how long he envisages it will take to implement those recommendations? Is it his intention to use some of the contributions from the religious institutions to provide funding in respect of areas in the system where inadequacies exist? The Taoiseach: I disagree with Deputy Kenny regarding the performance of the Minister of State, Deputy Barry Andrews. The latter is distinguishing himself in his position and is extremely committed to the task he has undertaken on behalf of the Government. As already stated, he will take the opportunity afforded by the debate to be held in a couple of weeks’ time to outline his general approach and that of the Government. Drawing up an implemen- tation plan over the next six to eight weeks is a good approach to take in the context of developing a comprehensive response to the recommendations. I understand that the part of the Charities Act to which the Deputy refers is not operative. As already stated, it is important that the congregations should come forward with proposals that are commensurate with the level of resources available to them. I intend to discuss with them how we might proceed in a way that will engender public confidence. Deputy Enda Kenny: Will the victims be represented at the discussions? The Taoiseach: As I indicated earlier, I will meet and liaise with the groups representing the victims and also the congregations. Deputy Eamon Gilmore: I also welcome the statement made by the Government last night. This statement was made almost a week after the publication of the Ryan report and came in the aftermath of overwhelming public outrage with regard to the contents of that report. As I understand it, the Government is proposing that the religious orders should make further contributions, that some mechanism can be found to house those contributions — perhaps a trust along the lines I have been suggesting — and that a means by which the public might assess the significance of those contributions, in the context of the assets, financial circumstances, etc., of the religious orders, will be put in place. It is important that this exercise should not become some kind of repeat of the sweetheart deal that was done in 2002. As a result, there is a need for clarity with regard to what is intended. In replying to Deputy Kenny’s inquiries, the Taoiseach has now stated on two occasions that the approach he intends to take is to hear what the congregations have to say and, in a sense, discover what they are offering. Does he have an idea of the quantum of what would be acceptable in this instance? What amount of further contributions does he feel would be appropriate? The Taoiseach will recall that when the 2002 was being drawn up, the Depart- 678 Leaders’ 27 May 2009. Questions ment of Finance recommended that the contributions of the State and the congregations should be on a 50-50 basis. Is he of the view that the congregations should make further contributions which would reflect this or is he going to accept whatever is offered? The Government statement in respect of this matter indicates that the contributions might be dealt with by way of a trust, which would be a good way to proceed. However, some of the congregations seem to be suggesting that it might be done by way of provision of services, including counselling services. I suspect that the last source from which the victims of these awful crimes would want to seek counselling would be the orders whose members inflicted abuse on them in the first instance. In such circumstances, is the Taoiseach in a position to assure us that these further contributions will be made in material terms, namely, in the form of money, property or other assets? By what means will the public be able to assess the level of further contributions made? How are we to assess both the appropriate level of contribution and the amount the congregations will be in a position to contribute? As Deputy Kenny asked — Deputy Burton posed the same question yesterday — will an independent audit be carried out in respect of the congregations and their assets? Could such an audit be carried out by the Revenue Commis- sioners or the Criminal Assets Bureau in order that we might assess the level of assets in existence? One of these agencies might also investigate whether congregations have been trans- ferring out assets in anticipation of any request for a further contribution.

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