Men's Violence A Conversation with Michael Kaufman and Eimear O'Neill

ichael Kaufman, educator on men's violence and a Eimear: So why a biad? professor at York University, talks with Eimear Michael: The idea of the triad is that men's violence takes three O'Neil1,psychotherapist with survivors of violence legs to stand on. The solid ground that supports this triad, the M ar the Brief Psychotherapy Centre for Women in context you know, is the nuts and bolts of a patriarchal society. Toronto. The way these legs combine with the societal underpinnings can help us understand how violence against women has to do with Eimear: Why are you personally working in the area of men's the way masculinity is constructed, the way it's partly based on violence against women? men's internalization of violence, including the violence done to them by other males. Michael: Part of my experience growing up as a male in our Eimear: Why? Why is it the men who feel entitled to dominate, society was violence at the hands of other males. to own 99 per cent of the world's property and take 75 per cent Eimear: In your home? of its output, while women do 75 per cent of the work, according Michael: No, not beyond the usual, a spanking every year or so. to World Health Organization figures. I consider that violence, but it's on a pretty small scale. It was Michael: There are two ways to go at that. Each man comes into more in school and on the playground. From an early age I had the the world and is given the opportunity to dominate because men sense there was this linkbetween acapacity to be tough, to be vio- have set up societies where we have that privilege, that capacity lent, to fight and to be a man. It was never my thing. I never and the belief that that's just how things are. Why we feel we are excelled in "Fighting 101." entitled also raises a psychological question. There's ten& Eimear: When did you start working actively in the area? work done by feminist psychoanalysts and psychologists like Michael: I never had a political or intellectual interest in JessicaBenjamin,Nancy Chodorow, Dorothy Dinnerstein, Alice violence until the early 1980s when I began some personal Miller that gives us some clues to that question. It seems to me exploration and thinking about my life and the lives of men. It that the young boy develops a strong fantasy image of his occurred to me that the important attention given to men's potential power as a male. What is his view of power? Well for violence against women addressed just one aspect of men's him, as for adult men in male dominated society, it's a capacity violence. We see around us what I've called a triad of men's to control and to dominate. Who and what? Women, children, violence, that is, men's violence against women, against other men, socialresources, nature, you name it. All the superhero stuff men and what we can think of, perhaps metaphorically, as starts happening, you know, you can fly, you can do everything. violence against ourselves, as internalized violence.' It seemed I remember having wonderful dreams after seeing Peter Pan of that men's violence against women wasn't isolated, but was part being able to fly upstairs through my house. All these things rep of a package of what so many men consider normal masculinity. resented the power that, without knowing it, I felt was mine Eimear: When you put it like a triad, it sounds like you disguise because I had this passkey m the world of power. I had a penis. the fact that most of the violence is against women and children. Now this thing was a pretty small affair at the time, but it was my Men might internalize violence but they do so in ways that get link m the world of male power. But you see how, as a part of a turned out back towards women and children. Think of Marc fantasy image of power, it's an awfully fragile and tiny Upine, it was his father who abused him, but his mother and "the connection. bunch of feminists" against whom he turned his anger. Without Eimear: However, it's a real key, a key to real "power over" men in the mmmaking any protest. That's my horror. someone else. I have a problem with the concept of the fragility Michael: I don't talk about the triad of men's violence to take of masculinity. I'm not that hopeful. Far from being fragile, mas- atlention away from men's violence against women. It's not to culinity is fmly, immutably entrenched. It's not fragile at all. reduce the urgency of the problem, it's not to excuse any men, or Michael: Oh, it's very fmly entrenched in our society and it's to tell women "Calm down girls, we're the real ones with a very fmlyentrenched in the individual. But there are two voices problem." It's to try to understand why men are violent. I don't inside men's heads. One is about men's power. I'm not saying all think we're biologically cued to be violent. I don't think there's men are brutes. For those of us who hang around universities a violence gene. I don't think we should talk about "male" there aren't many fist fights at departmental meetings, but that violence, as if it was biologically given or inevitable, but "men's" same power is exercised through a competitive power over violence, something more socially constructed. words. You have these guys strutting their intellectual stuff, see-

28 CANADIAN WOMAN STUDIESLES CAHIERS DE LA FEMME ing who has the longest CV, all of that sort to exercise a certain type of power, but Eimear: And the results have been ... of thing. also so we don't experience our pain. Michael: A shift in a social fulcrum. As Eimear: So masculinity is about win- We've constructed a society so that men men's power is reduced, men are ex- ning? Having the longest CV? don't have to take on the work of child periencing the pain more and more. Many Michael: Yes, it's about winning. It's care, most men can take off at night, or experience this as a threat, some are act- about dominating, it's about controling pursue a career. We can see that as a privi- ing it out against women and children and it's about having power over others. lege, but I feel we pay a price for that. We even more. Others see it as a tremendous But this type of power is something that miss some of therichest stuff of existence. promise. has to be attained. It's something we have I hear a lot of older men who have worked This whole business of men's power to struggle and fight for. alI their life for a company to succeed and and pain is a real mess. What a combi- Eimear: It seems to me that, in a male to get ahead, doing it they'll say, for their nation: Self-doubt combined with power dominator culture, power gives access to family. Suddenly they're retired and they -power over women and children, con- resources and a capacity to self-define. look around and they don't even know trol of the structures of power, maintained You get power over decision-making through relations of power among men. affecting daily living, by virtue of being Manhood is defined as having power, but male. no one has that absolutepower- we even Michael: There's nostruggle tobe male. tried to set up male gods but that hasn't The struggle is to become a man. But really kept us satisfied. It's a nasty situ- those images differ from class to class, ation. And that's how we get to the religious and ethnic groups, by sexual what I've called a triad of men's violence. orientation and age. The images differ, Eimear: Why is men's response but the dominant image is that manhood is violence, that is, men's violence violence? something you have to struggle to be- Michael: If you're living in a society come. You can't just be a man. It requires against women, against other men where men have power, but if there is also control over the surrounding world so it's and what we can think of perhaps this internal dialogue of self-doubt about pretty impossible to be permanently clear making the masculine grade, how better that you've made the grade. These two metaphorically, as violence to show yourself and the world that you voices -one of power, one of self-doubt have power and control than by exercis- and pain - make up a dialogue of self- against ourselves, as ing it over those human beings who are doubt. internalized violence defined as not having power, not having The combination of the rigid structures control, that is, women and children. of male power and the fragility of mascu- Violence, let's say in the home, becomes linity is what I think of as part of men's a terrific means for some man to say to contradictory experiences of power.2Men their kids and they say, "Well, what do I himself that, yah, he is a man because he do have power and privilege in a patriar- have?" can dominate someone who clearly isn't. chal society. Men's power is built into the Eimear: Exactly, their focus is on pos- Some men do it in relation to other men. fabric of our society and is internalized session, control over, though, in fact, There the logic is the same: Hey that guy's into the texture of our souls. Yet the way nobody on their deathbed says, "I wish obviously a man and I can dominate him; we construct that power in the world and I'd spent more time at the office." 1 must be pretty powerful. in our lives brings enormous pain not only Michael: So the guy had a privilege in I'm not just trying to explain violence at to women but, in a very different way, to pursuing a career and worldly fame and this individual psychological level. The men. That's the paradox of men's power: fortune, but it's a pretty tragic story. I reason men are able to act out this vio- sure we have "power over" women, we don't know how it would compare to a lence in the home or in the street is be- control the structures of social power, woman who is stuck with domestic work cause the structures of our society give some men do have power over other men, or limited in what she can be. Both op- men power over women and, in many but all at a high cost. The cost to men of tions are miserable. ways, sanction men's violence. men's power can be seen in different Now in all this I'm not saying that Eimear: Robin Morgan calls that the ways. Most basic is a definition of power men's power and pain are equal chunks sexualization of terr~r.~What male that says you have to have the capacity because traditionally, the benefits of violence... and the right to control and to dominate. men's power have greatly outweighed Michael: ...men's violen ce... Well none of us controls and dominates any experience of pain. What's happen- Eimear: ... does is establish fear about all that much, most men don't have full ing now, since the massive impact of certain things, not just assault but also fear powerover their own lives. But that means feminism over the last two decades, is of lack of protection or the economic fear you can't be a man. We experience this that there are real challenges to men's that you won't survive. Part of the reason pain in a sense of alienation from our- power. Theequilibrium has shifted. Even why men can exercise violence is that selves. We suppress our emotions. To be though we have a long way to go, men's they corral the resources of society. men we have to bury a whole range of right to power has been questioned and in Michael: And what's the definition of emotions, sensitivity, connectedness, some spheres men's real power has been someone who needs to do that? The vio- capacity to nurture, whatever. We do this reducd... lence and power of individual men is

VOLUME 1 1. NUMBER 4 based on the social power of men, but also other men. Men are not going to come because, as we know, violence can be a on the very real terror of men, real through for you, men are not going to means to enforce privileges and domi- isolation, real alienation and real fear, meet your needs, men are going to beat nance. There's no end to this list. which recreate the need for them to con- your brains out. What I'm talking about We also have to see what we can do at trol others. The social power of men cre- here is homophobia. It's not just the fear the individual level. More and more men ates the possibility to act on that need. of homosexuality, it's the fear of other are agreeing that men's violence is a se- Eimear: So why do men in feeling more men. It gets focused onto gay men be- rious problem. Men are being pushed to pain respond with greater violence against cause those are men who like men, who make changes by women in a variety of women and children. That's the Marc can be emotionally vulnerable with other places, partly because many women sim- Lkpine dynamic! men, and all this brings up intense fear in ply aren't tolerating being dominated or Michael: Yah. The incredible thing other men. Anyway, that gets into another abused in relationships or at work. These about Marc Upine was that he suffered thing, but I think that we're talking about are important, but only first steps. We violence, denial and brutalization at the men's violence against men and the inter- have to figure out ways that more men can hands of his father. But his little mind nalization of violence, we're tallring about see themselves as allies and beneficiaries couldn't compute that his father, the per- homophobia, of men's hatred and fear of of a struggle against men's violence. son he was supposed to be like, could so other men. Eimear: Like what? violate him that he flipped his hatred Eimear: It seems to me that the problem Michuel: This sounds strange, but the around to the other half of humanity who is not just the fear and hatred of other men key is to break down the isolation among were supposed to be less powerful and and that being internalized, but the fact men so we men can learn from each other's desirable. The pain he suffered at the that the fear is being denied by most men. experiences that you don't have to do hands of a man was turnedagainstwomen, The Mount Cashel investigation and oth- anything to be a man. We need men's particularly women who he saw as chal- ers [into the abuse of boys at church-run support groups for violent men, really for lenging his right. Which again goes back orphanages] is to a degree just a more all men young and old, where we can find to this analysis of the triad of men's vio- public acknowledgement of the abuse of out we're not alone in our fears and con- lence. Violence of men against other men boys by men. cerns, where we can discover that ourpain often reproduces violence against women Michael: Yah, it's easy to deny this and self-doubt is shared by our brothers. and children. hatred and fear because we've built up We discover we can be the men we want Eimear: And what about men's vio- these elaborate rituals, subcultures and tobe without having to fight for it, without lence against other men? societies of male-bonding, of male unity, having to perform. It's our biological Michael: Men's relations with men are of male comradeship. You know it's a reality, nothing we have to struggle for. based not only on admiration, love and great big boy's club out there. Whether Remember how the struggle to a man is respect, but so often on hatred and fear of we're talking about the church, police often facilitated by acts of violence. Part other men. You know, it's ironic that one force, army, government, media or the of challenging violence is to develop pride of the bogus charges against feminists is corporations, it's a big boy's club. We've among men. And this seems so bizarre, that they're man-haters. The biggest man got these forms of social structures in because here we are challenging what haters around are men. I mean who is it male-dominated societies to prevent us seems to be a puffed-up pride. Yet we who goes into the boxing ring to bash the from feeling that fear 24 hours a day. You need to go for a much deeper sense of brains out of another man? Who is it know that they're your brothers, your pride and appreciation of self, where we engaging in schoolyard violence to beat comrades-in-arms,your friends and asso- can sweep a lot of demons and fears out of up another guy? Who is going to war to ciates; we'vedeveloped all these forms of the closet. subdue other men? The immense hatred social interaction among men that allow Eimear: Maybe it's not "pride" but and fear of other men is related to men's us toco-exist without beating each other's "respect" - a sense of self that honours violence against other men and how that brains out. We're able to avoid living in all aspects of their self including the fear, gets internalized as violence against constant terror that the guy next to you is pain and conflict in their relationships ourselves. going to beat yours out. It's a nasty with other men, as well as with women. You know if you ask men about women business. And a sense of self that acknowledges you get words like "soft, gentle, good Eimear: So what do you see as men's their need for, and actively fosters close, looking, open." You ask them about men role in changing this situation? equitable,empoweringrelationships. The and they say, "they're hard, they're tough." Michuel: Well, there's a lot men can do problem with breaking down the isolation You'd be hard pressed to feel safe with at a public level - support education between men is that our only previous such a person. You're not going to really programs in schools and communities, models tend to have been men "bonding" like these guys. You know, there's this advocate better funding for shelters, push in the name of greater violence -in war, image of men as warriors, as distant, as for stricter penalties for violence and in gangs, in locker rooms. Without new uncaring. What's this all about? Well, it's decent ~entprograms,support peace- models, there's just an upsurge of the based on the experience most boys had ful solutions to conflicts whether in the same violent behaviour. with their fathers. They didn't get their schoolyard or between nations, speak out Michael: Most male bonding has been needs met, they were let down. One thing publicly against men's violence. Then based on common enemies or differences theboy ends up with is fear of getting hurt, there's the larger issues of inequality and men create with other men, whether it's being disappointed, feeling rejected by men's power that tie in with violence your class, skin colour, sexual orientation

CANADIAN WOMAN STUDIES/LES CAHIERS DE LA FEMME or religion. Or it's based on ideas that men Soldier share some timeless qualities of mascu- linity that are out of bounds to women. 1. He is now equipped That idea is as true for the army as it is for She did not see me as a general in training the guys getting into all the Robert Bly pretend to smack her ass giving orders stuff. No, we don't have good alternative in jest. enjoying the officer's mess models for breaking down men's isola- As usual the privilege to walk alone in the night tion without men getting into breaking I pulled my hand back without fear other people's necks. That's why we have in the nick of time. no rape or violation to start with the whole feminist agenda. to jade the innocence For example, developing equality in the But, did our young son see? no bestial lust home is not only critical for women, but to ravage purity critical for men. It's important for the next 2. no obscene pornographer in three piece generation that, in those homes where a The young soldier suit father is present, boys learn they can turn in the never-ending boot camp licentious, vile to men for care and affection. It's critical kicks cats how evil is cloaked in the mundane for the next generation of men to have that don't let him pet them "All is fair in love and war." developed skills of relationship, of car- The young soldier speak the masked offenders ing, of bonding based on love and con- in the neverending boot camp Commanders of the war nection and not based on common ene- calls girls sluts their artillery - mies or differences. and their mothers degradation and rape Eimear: So we need saong responses - whom he does not know - or by men at a social and public level against whores collusion in degradation and rape violence in all it's forms, from sexist There, that implicates us all. jokes to incest, men's consciousness rais- It's fuckin this ing through groups and individual work, and fuckin that 3. education in schools that not only points as means of expression There is no time for declarations of out the effects of all forms of violence but will not blossom reprehensibility. does so through a process that is non- other than through his fists domineering, non-punitive, collaborative. his skin still soft with youth 4. And, very important, the participation of Some nights I have nightmares men in the reality of caring for children on His indoctrination a daily basis, a role for which they will has ravaged I hope I do not train my son as a soldier have to establish some trust. any tears Michael: All by tomorrow. It does seem any quiet in his heart awesome, but I see it happening. For every judge who lets off a rapist, I see another man struggling against sexism in Gentlemen: Gentlemen, you think me a fool? his own life. Just think of this conversa- tion, it wouldn't have occurred to any of Gentlemen: Gentlemen, us a few years ago. It's the result of men I sit If in the past couple of weeks learning from the struggles of women and at the back of the bus a few men were found also of men realizing we are not only part alone. dead of the problem but part of the solution. Women their genitals splattered over their look for seats neighbours' lawns eyeing every single man would you be flattered when a friendly as though he is the one. woman said your hairy l See Michael Kaufman, "The Con- struction of Masculinity and the Triad of My eyes try to catch theirs chest is so cute? screaming, I am not Or would you check the hatpin in your Men's Violence," in Beyond Patriarchy: we are not.... pocket? Essays by Men on Pleasure, Power and Every eye I catch can only think the Change (Toronto: Oxford University Michael Glassbourg Press, 1987). wrong thought See Michael Kaufman, "Towards a They are not just looking for the killer Framework for Research on Men and but searching out oppressors if only with their eyes. These two poems were read as part of the Masculinity," Men'sStudiesReview, Vol. Now Healing Images men's panel discussion on 7, No. 3 (Summer 1990). with a killer on the loose men's violence towards women. The poems Robin Morgan, The Demonhver: On the point is driven home were intenvo~enwith the presentations of the Sexuality of Terrorism (New York: It is not simply one maniac four other panel participants, and a wriety of W.W. Norton & Co., 1989). it is... Michael Glassbourg's other writings.

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