8300 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- OCTOBER 29

The bill

STATEMENT WITH REGARD TO THE "GREEn" INCI• Question 2. Did the Greer have orders from Question 8. How many torpedoes were fired DENT, SEPTEMBER 4, 1941 the Department to proceed through this at the Greer and at what intervals were they On September 4, 1941, at 0840 G. C. T., the area? fired? How long was it after the submarine U. S. S. Greer, while en route to Iceland with Answer. The Greer had orders from the was sighted or first heard that the first tor­ United States mail and passengers and some commander in chief of the Atlantic Fleet to pedoes were fired? How near did the tor­ freight, was informed by a British plane of proceed through the area. The Navy Depart­ pedoes come to bitting the ship? the presence of a submerged submarine, dis­ ment had full knowledge of this. Answer. Two torpedoes were fired at the tance about 10 miles directly ahead. Question 3. Were any other ships in com­ Greer. The firing of the first one was indi­ This British plane continued in the vicin­ pany with, or in sight of, the Greer just be· cated by the sighting of the impulse bubble ity of the submarine until 1052, when she fore or at any time during the encounter? at 1248, just 3 hours and 28 minutes after departed. Prior to her departure, at 1032, If so, (a) what were the names and na­ the Greer first detected the submarine by she dropped four depth charges in the vicinity tionality of these vessels and (b) did any means of her sound equipment. At 1249 the of the submarine. of these ships take part in the encounter wake of this torpedo was observed about 100 Acting on the information from the British either directly or indirectly? yards astern. At 1258 the wake of a second plane, the Greer proceeded to search for the -Answer. A British destroyer was in sight torpedo was observed 500 yards distant on submarine, and at 0920 she located the sub­ about 5 miles distant from the Greer when the starboard bow. The Greer avoided it, the marine directly ahead by her underwater the Greer made a depth-bomb attack at 1512. torpedo passing about 300 yards clear of the sound equipment. The Greer proceeded then This British destroyer bad arrived on the ship. to trail the submarine and broadcasted the scene at 1415 and bad asked the Greer if she Question 9. How many depth charges were submarine's position. This action taken by (the Greer) desired to conduct a coordinated dropped by the Greer, and at what 1Iitervals? the Greer was in accordance with her orders, search for the submarine. To this question Answer. U. S. S. Greer dropped 8 depth that is, to give out information but not to the Greer replied "No." The British destroyer charges, commencing at 1256; 11 depth charges attack. stood through the area and disappeared to were dropped, commencing at 1512. All these The Greer maintained this contact until the southward. depth charges were dropped after the first about 1248. During this period (3 hours . Question 4. Were any airplanes in sight of torpedo had been fired at the Greer. 28 minutes) the Greer maneuvered so as to or in communication with the Greer just be­ Question 10. Has anything been seen or keep the submarine ahead. fore or ,during the encounter? If so, (a) what heard from this submarine since the last At 1240 the submarine changed course ar..d were the nationality of these planes and (b) depth charges were dropped by the Greer? closed the Greer. did any of these planes furnish any infor­ Answer. Not by the U. S. S. Greer, nor has The disturbance of the surface and the mation to the Greer or take part either the Department any word. change in color of the water, marking the directly or indirectly in the encounter? Question 11. Has the Department received passage of the submarine, was clearly distin­ Answer. Yes. At 0840 a British plane ap­ a copy of the log of the Greer from the 2d guished by the Greer. proached the U.S. S. Greer and signaled that to the 5th of September, both dates inclusive? At 1248 an impulse bubble (indicating the a submarine had submerged about 10 miles Answer. No. discharge of a torpedo by the submarine) directly ahead of the Greer. The plane fur­ Question 12. What information In general was righted close aboard the Greer. nished no further assistance to the Greer. is entered into the log? At 1249 a torpedo track was sighted cross­ At 1032 this plane dropped four depth charges Answer. All facts concerning the incident ing the wake of the ship from starboard to are entered in the log. in the vicinity of the submarine and at 1052 Question 13. Is there any reason, or rea­ port, distant about 100 yards astern. the plane departed from the area. It should At 1256 the Greer attacked the submarine be particularly noted that this plane left sons, why this log should not be mada public? If so, what are these reasons? With a pattern of eight depth charges. the area at 1052 and did not return and that At 1258 a second torpedo track was sighted Answer. It is not desirable that this log be the Greer fired no guns or torpedoes or made public for the reason that to do so on the starboard bow of the Greer, distant dropped any depth charges until 1256-some about 500 yards. The Greer avoided this would disclose confidential mllitary informa­ 8 minutes after the submarine fired a tor­ tion. torpedo. pedo at the Greer-or, in other wo::ds, over At this time the Greer lost sound contact 2 hours after the British plane had left the Question 14. Are there any reasons why the with the submarine. commanding officer and other officers and scene. men of the Greer should not appear before At 1300 the Greer started searching for the Question 5. Was the commanding officer of submarine, and at 1512, in latitude 62-43 N., the committee? If so, what are those rea- the Greer informed that a submarine was op­ . sons? longitude 27-22 W., the Greer made under­ erating in this vicinity before his vessel was water contact with a submarine. The Greer Answer. Yes. Testimony of such officers attacked or before the submarine or her peri­ would be almost certain to disclose vital attacked immediately with depth charges. scope was seen? If so, when and from whom In neither of the Greer's attacks did she m111tary secrets which would endanger other did he receive this information? naval vessels. In addition, to establish a observe any results which would indicate that Answer. Yes. See answer to precedlng the attacks on the submarine bad been efi'ec­ precedent or to have naval officers at sea question. The periscope of the submarine feel that whenever they take action they tive. was not seen at any time by the Greer. The Greer continued search until 1840, at would or might be called before a congres­ Question 6. If be had information from sional investigating committee to explain and which time she again proceeded toward her an outside source that there was a submarine destination, Iceland. justify their action, would be prejudicial to in the vicinity, (a) did ~ he change his course From the above it is clearly evident that the conduct of operations on the high seas. and speed and start a search for the subma­ Question 15. In view of the fact that the the Greer, though continuously in contact rine; (b) bow long did be search for the with the submarine for 3 hours 28 minutes, United States Navy now has orders to shoot did not attack the submarine, although the submarine before be was fired upon; and at Axis submarines or raiders, is there any (c) did other vessels or planes assist in this reason why the orders under which the Greer Greer herself was exposed to attack. search? At no time did the Greer sight the sub­ was operating at the time shouldn't now be marine's periscope. Answer. As soon as information was re­ made public? The weather was good. ceived by the Greer from the British plane Answer. Naval operation orders that In any The commander in chief of the Atlantic that a submarine was directly ahead of her, manner do or might involve mll1tary action Fleet corroborates the above report in detail, the Greer increased speed, started zigzagging, are considered as of the most secret nature and further states that the action taken by and commenced a search for the submarine. and should not be disclosed publicly, because the Greer was correct in every particular in Five minutes after the search began, namely, of the unquestioned value they would be to accordance with her existing orders. at 0920, the Greer located the submarine by foreign powers. her underwater sound equipment; she held H. R. STARK. Question 16. Have officials of the State De­ this contact until 1248, namely, 3 hours partment taken up with the German Embassy 28 minutes before the submarine made her the question of this attack upon a United QUESTIONS ADDRESSED TO THE SECRETARY OF THE attack. No assistance by either planes or States naval vessel? If so, it is requested NAVY BY THE CHAIRMAN OF THE SENATE NAVAL ships was given to the Greer during this that the committee be furnished with a copy AFFAIRS COMMITTEE, AND PROPOSED ANSWERS period. of the official communication. THERETO, IN CONNECTION WITH THE "GREER" Question 7. If he first learned of the pres­ Answer. No. INCIDENT ence of the submarine from his submarine­ Question 17. Has the German Embassy for• Question 1. Did the incident take place in detection device or from sighting it, (a) did warded any official explanation of the attack an area dec~ared to be blockaded by the Ger­ he change his course to search for or head to our Government? If so, it is requested man Government? for the submarine or (b) would be have be~n that the committee be furnished a copy of Answer. The Greer incident took place ln out of range of the submarine's torpedoes this explanation. an area approximately 175 miles southwest if he had continued on his course? Answer. No. of Iceland and directly in the path of com­ Answer. The first part of this question is H.R.STARK. munication between American ports and Ice~ answered by the answer to the preceding Mr. McNARY. I suggest the absence land. This area was within the zone of op­ question. As to the second part of this ques­ erations announced by the German Govern­ tion, the answer is problematical. No person of a quorum. ment 011 March 26, 1941, as a zone within can predict what the submarine's course The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. which vessels entering exposed themselves "to would have been. The answer, therefore, OvERTON in the chair). The clerk will the danger of destruction." might be "Yes" or it might be "No.'' call the roll. 8316 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE OCTOBER 29 The Chief Clerk called the roll, and claimed that we were fighting to make of America and the Government of those the following Senators answered to their the world safe for democracy. people intend and expect to remain at peace with all the world. names: DISILLUSIONMENT OF LAST WAR Adams Gerry O'Mahoney On October 16, 1935, in a message to Aiken Gillette Overton After that war was won an alleged the fifth annual women's conference, Andrews Glass Peace peace was concluded. The disillusion­ in New York, the President said: Austin Green Pepper ment in this Nation created a political Bailey Gu1fey Radcliffe I have pledged myself to do my part 1n Ball Gurney Rosier upheaval. The party which had been re­ keeping America free of those entanglements Barkley Hatch Russell sponsible for taking the Nation to war, that move us along the road to war. Bilbo Hill Schwartz the party which had claimed that the Bridges Holman Shipstead On November 11, 1935, in an Armistice Brooks Johnson, Calif Smathers great war effort on the part of the peo­ Brown Johnson, Colo. Stewart ple of the United States was for preser­ Day speech at Arlington National Ceme­ Bunker . Kilgore Taft vation of the rights of self-determina­ tery, he said, in part: Burton La Follette Thomas, Idaho Butler Langer Thomas, Okla. tion and freedom of the seas, to make the The primary pUrpose of this Nation is to Byrd Lee Thomas, Utah world safe for democracy, and to end all avoid being drawn into war. • * • Capper Lucas Tobey war, was overwhelmingly defeated at the The new generation, unlike us, have no Caraway McCarran Truman polls in 1920. That was the last cam­ direct knowledge of the meaning of war. Chandler McFarland Tunnell They are not immune to the glamor of war. Chavez McKellar Vandenberg paign, as I recall it, in which the Demo­ • • • Fortunately, there is evidence on Clark, Idaho McNary VanNuys cratic Party endeavored to wage a contest Clark, Mo. Maloney Wallgren every hand that the youth of America, as a Connally Mead Walsh predicated upon the principles on which whole, is not trapped by that delusion. They Danaher Murdock Wheeler it claimed to have entered the war. In know that elation and prosperity which may Davis Murray White ,fact, after the overwhelming defeat in come from a new war must lead-for those Doxey Norris Wiley who survive it--to economic and social col­ Ellender Nye 1920 the sentiment created by the dis­ George O'Da.niel illusionment after the last war was so lapse more sweeping than any we have expe­ great in this Nation that the Democratic rienced in the past. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Seventy­ America must and will protect herself. Party itself had to abandon the concepts Under no circumstances will this policy of nine Senators have answered to their and the position in international affairs names. A quorum is present. self-protection go to lengths beyond self­ upon which it had gone to war. · protection. Mr. LA FOLLETTE. Mr. President, I Moreover, the present President of the believe this country faces one of the most United States, who was Assistant Secre­ On January 3, 1936, in his message to momentous decisions in its historY. In tary of the Navy in the Wilson admin­ the Congress, the President said: what I am about to say I Wish to assure istration, and who was subsequently a The United States and the rest of the my colleages, if that be necessary, that Vice Presidential candidate on the Dem­ Americas can play but one role: through a nothing in my remarks will be intended ocratic ticket, himself abandoned the well-ordered neutrality to do naught to en­ to impugn the motives, the character, or courage the contest, through adequate de­ position which his party had taken upon fense to save ourselves from embroilment the high patriotism of those who dis­ foreign affairs. agree with me upon this issue. I hope and attack, and through example and all PRESIDENTIAL STATEMENTS legitimate encouragement and assistance, to that my 16 years of service in this body persuade other nations to return to the ways make it unnecessary for me to amplify I desire to quote a few excerpts from of peace and good will. that statement. some of the speeches he made since he Within democratic nations the chief con­ became President. WORLD WAR NO.1 cern of the people is to prevent the continu­ On December 28, 1933, in an address ance or rise of autocratic institutions that I have never advanced the claim, and before the Foundation, beget slavery at home and aggression abroad. I do not now, that this present war in he said: the Old World is like World War No. 1. On August 14, 1936, speaking at Chau­ The definite policy of the United States tauqua, N.Y., he said, in part: But I do venture the prophecy that fu­ from now on 1s one opposed to armed inter­ ture unbiased historians, if such there vention. We shun .political commitments which may be, outside of concentration camps might entangle us in foreign wars; we avoid On January 3, 1934, in a message to the connection with the political activities of the anywhere in the world when this conflict Congress, he said: League of Nations. comes to a close, will recite the deadly I wish I could keep war from all nations; parallel between the steps whereby we I have made it clear that the United States cannot take part in political arrangements but that is beyond my power. I can at least entered World War No. 1 and those by ln Europe. make certain that no act of the United States which apparently we are entering the helps to produce or to promote war. present conflict. I shall suggest but a On January 4, 1935, in a message to If we face the choice of profits or peace, few of them in passing. Congress, he said: the Nation will answer-must answer-"We A political campaign was fought in The maintenance of international peace choose peace." It is the duty of all of us to this country, Mr. President, in 1916. It is a matter in which we are deeply and un­ encourage such a body of public opinion. was won by the candidate of the Demo­ selfishly concerned. There ls no ground for We can keep out of war if those who watch 7 apprehension that our relations with any and decide have a sufficiently detailed under­ cratic Party, Woodrow V\ ilson, seeking nation will be otherwise then peaceful. standing of international a!Iairs to make cer­ reelection to the Presidency of the United tain that the small decisions of each day do States upon the slogan that ''He kept On June 12, 1935, in an address to the not lead toward war, and if, at the same ·time, us out of war." A few short months after graduating class at West Point, he said: they possess the courage to say "No" to those that election had been won the Congress As a nation we have beer.. fortunate in our who selfishly or unwisely would let us go to of the United States was asked to grant geographic isolation, which in itself has par­ war. to the then President the power to arm tially protected our boundless resources. It On October 13, 1936, in a speech at is in full appreciation of our advantageous merchantmen. The Congress did not act Wichita, Kans., President Roosevelt upon that proposal because in this body position and of our own devotion to the cause of peace that our Nation's defensive system said: there were 12 men, afterward designated has always reflected the single purpose that We have sought for security from war with by the President as "12 willful men,'' who that name implies. other nations. • • • We propose, of exercising the right of freedom of de­ course, no interference with the affairs of bate in this Chamber refused to let that On October 2, 1935, in a speech at San other nations. measure come to a vote. Diego, Calif., he said: Subsequently, and very shortly there­ The American people can have but one On October 14, 1936, in a speech at after, the President asked the Congress concern and speak but one sentiment: De­ St. Louis, Mo., he said: for a declaration of war.. and it was con­ spite what happens in continents overseas, All major wars have brought about major stitutionally voted. We went to war, for the United States of America shall and must disturbances in our social and economic ma­ remain, as long ago the Father of our Coun­ chinery. The late war has been no excep­ a number of reasons, among them free­ try prayed that it might remain, unentangled tion. We rejoice here that these problems dom of the seas and preservation of the and free. are being met and solved without impairing rights of weaker nations. It was desig­ As President of the United States I say to - our faith and confidence in the people's abil­ nated as "a war to end war." It was you most earnestly once more that the people ity to do it themselves by the peaceful proc- 1941 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE 8317 esses of democratic representative govern­ a belligerent, and that they must stay out of try as a result of the sad experience of ment. war zones. Was that right? · our last mad adventure in Europe that On October 14, 1937, in a speech at And at , on Oct.ober 30, 1940, the neither candidate for President of the Madison Square Garden, New York City, President said: United States felt that he could do other­ he said: And while I am talking to you, fathers, wise than to pledge the American elector­ The Nation knows I hate war, and I know and mothers, I give you one more assurance. ate that, if entrusted with the high du­ that the Nation hates war. I submit to you I have said this before, but I shall say it ties and powers of the office of President a record of peace. again and again and again: Your boys are of the United States, he would not send Today there is war and rumors of war. not going to be sent into any foreign wars. American boys to die on the battlefields We want none of it. But while we guard They are going into training to form a force of the Old World. One of my reasons for our shores against threats of war, we will so strong that, by its very existence, it will being so disturbed about the course of continue to remove the causes of unrest and keep the threat of war far away from our events in this country in relation to our antagonism at home which might make our shores. Yes; the purpose of our defense is foreign policy is my fear of the ultimate people easier victims to those for whom for­ defense. eign war is profitable. Those who stand to disillusionment which will seize upon the profit by war are not on our side in this Again, at Cleveland, on November 2, people of the United -States when they campaign. 1940, as the campaign drew to a close, find that the men whom they trusted the President said: with high offices have, despite their sol­ In his message to Congress in Septem­ We know that we are determined to de­ emn pledges, led a reluctant people to ber 1939, in seeking a repeal of the arms fend our country, and with our neighbors war in the Old World. embargo, the President said: to defend this hemisphere. We are strong STATEMENTS OF ADMINISTRATION SPOKESMEN I give you my deep and unalterable con­ in our defense. • • • viction, based on years of experience as a The first purpose of our foreign policy is Somewhat the same thing can be said worker in the field of international peace, to keep our country out of war. of the manner in which we have pro­ that by the repeal of the embargo the United States will more probably remain at peace The candidate running upon the Re­ ceeded to whittle away, and now we are than if the law remains as it stands today. publican ticket for the Presidency of the urged finally to emasculate the Neutral ­ I say this because with the repeal of the United States has, since the election, ity Act. Let me quote a few words from embargo this Government clearly and defi­ before the Foreign Relations Committee the late Senator Pittman, of Nevada, who nitely will insist that American citizens and of the Senate, indicated that he regard­ handled the amendments to the Neu­ American ships keep away from the immedi­ ed some of his statements made during trality Act which were passed in 1939. ate perils of the actual zones of conflict. the campaign as a bit of "campaign ora­ In the Senate on October 6, 1939, he tory"; but, despite that self-revelatory said: I believe that American vessels should, so It is my candid belief that there is not a far as possible, be restricted from entering statement, I still believe that for the danger zoneB. • • • RECORD I should quote a few of his re-· man in the Senate who knows the history of marks. the World War-and I think all of them do · The second objective 1s to prevent Ameri­ now-who would have taken the steps we can citizens from traveling on belligerent ves­ At Cumberland, Md., on October 30, took then, knowing what we know now­ ·sels er in danger areas. • • • 1940, Mr. Willkie said: that is, that we may suspend our rights under Under present enactments such arms can­ In protecting America, the maintenance of international law on the high seas, whatever not be carried to belligerent countries on peace in the· Western Hemisphere will be my they may be, rather than pay the cost that American vessels, and this provision should objective. • • • we did pay, and probably will have to pay not be disturbed. The interests of the United States would again, to fight for those rights. To those who say that this program (em­ have been. better served if the third-term bargo repeal) would involve a step toward candidate had been outspokenly for peace On October 27, 1939, Senator PITTMAN war on our part, I reply that it offers far and nonparticipa tion rearlier] instead of said: greater safeguards than we now possess or waiting to pledge it in an election. Mr. President, we should not allow the re­ have ever possessed to protect American lives peal of the law which protects our country and property from danger It is a positive . At Chicago, on October 22, 1940, Mr. in time of war. We should not allow our program for giving safety This means less Willkie said: citizens to sail on belligerent passenger ves­ likelihood of incidents and controversies sels. Whether they are killed legally or which tend to draw us into conflict, as they One difference (between my foreign policy and that of the New Deal) is my determi­ illegally on such vessels, when they are killed did in the last World War There Ues the it arouses a war spirit in this country. we road to peace. nation to stay out of war. I have a real fear that this administration is heading for should never let that happen again. We CAMPAIGN PROMISES war, and I am against our going to war and should make it a permanent policy that our will' do all I can to avoid it. merchant marine shall not be armed when Then we come to the campaign of engaged in foreign commerce, because it in­ 1940. At St. Louis, on October 17, 1940: vites destruction by submarines, prevents At , on October 23, 1940, We do not want to send our boys over there search on the surface, and makes defense the PJ'esident said: again. We cannot and we must not under­ practically impossible. We are arming ourselves not for any for­ take to maintain by force of arms the peace • eign war. We are arming ourselves not for of Europe. No one here desires to take the same chance any purposes of conquest or intervention in At Buffalo, on October 15, 1940: again. foreign disputes. I repea~ again that I stand on the platform of our party: "We will not I favor aid to Britain "short of war," and The able majority leader, the Senator participate in foreign wars and will not send I mean "short of war." from Kentucky [Mr. BARKLEY], speaking our Army, naval, or air forces to fight in for­ in the Senate on October 19, 1939, said, eign lands· outside of the Americas except in And again at Cambridge, Mass., on in part: October 11, 1940, Mr. Willkie said: case of attack." The law we are now proposing would have It is for peace that I have labored; and it We can have peace, but we must begin prevented these attacks upon (World War is for peace that I shaH labor all the days of to preserve it. To begin with we shall not sinkings) and losses of property and lives, my life. undertake to fight anybody else's wars. Our because both prop~rty and lives would have boys shall stay out of Europe. None of us been withheld from the regions of danger, On October 28, 1940, at New York City, is so simple as to think that Hitler is plan­ the President said: resulting in their destruction or attacks upon ning this moment to send an exped.itionary them. The law we are proposing will keep By the Neutrality Act of 1935, and by other force acrm:s the Atlantic. He is aware that American ships and American cargoes and steps, we made it possible to prohibit Amer­ if we maka democracy strong here, his own American sailors and American travelers out ican citizens from traveling on vessels be­ system of blood and tyranny cannot survive of present regions of danger. longing to countries at war. Was that right? forever. In lieu of a mere embargo on the sale of We made it clear that American investors Mr. President, m3' purpose in quoting arms, which is not what forced us into the who put their money into enterprises in for­ war 22 years ago, we propose to place an em­ eign nations could not call on American war­ these statements for the RECORD is not to bargo against the type and destiny and means ships or soldiers to bail out their investments. inject a political issue into this momen­ of commerce and travel which did force us Was that right? tous debate. My only purpose is to show into war 22 years ago. • Under the . We made it clear that ships flying the that up until the end of the 1940 campaign measure now before the Senate there will be American flag could not carry munitions to there was such a sentiment in this coun- no necessity for an embargo on arms. • • • 8318 -CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE_ 0CTOBER _29 It canno_t be shipped to _a belltgerent nation apprehensive that it might imply that we · erty, and minimized the.loss. of Ameri-, or through a danger zone anywhere in tpe were going to deliver the goods to- the can life. J • w.orld 1n an American ship~ • .- • • This measute is consistent and sum.clent. - · beneficiaries of the Lend-Lease Act. The Were .it not for the evasion -.of the It 1s not likely that the American people able senator from rMr. GEORGE]# law, by the transfer of American-owned will become excited or that our Government who guided the· bill through the Senate, ships to Panamanian registry in violation would become active or -interested over the one of the moS.t distingliis~ed - lawyers in of the clear intent of the law, I contend sinking of a foreign vessel containing no this body, asserted that the word could that the loss of property and the loss of American citizen or an article of commerce not be torn out of the context, out of the life would have been eve~ : less t,han pas owned by an .Ainerican, no matter what ~he farilily of words, as lie described it, and now been sustained. , . origin of the cargo. • • • that there was nothing. in the measure . Mr. President, we ~re _' ~ske4 . 'to repeal We cannot become the target of a nation unless we are within range of its operations; which could be construed to indicate that the provision prohibiting the arming . of and certainly we cannot become the target for there was any authority to deliver goods. ships, section 6; we are asked to repeal any nation when w~ withhold ourselves from When the i>oint was pressed the admin­ the provision in section 2, prohibiting our the 'range of its operations. · · istration forces readily ' and willingly ships from going to belligerent ports; agreed to the insertion of a word which and we· are asked to report section 3, . The Senator from Texas [Mr. CoN­ would qualify "transfer," by including the which provides for the establishment of NALLY], now .the distinguished. chairman word "title." the so-called combat zones. o! the Committee on Foreign Relations, Mr. President, . I discussed at great Stripped of all the husks, what does speaking in the Senate on October 4, 1939, length on the floor of the Senate my rea­ this naked proposal niean? · It- means said this, in part: sons for being opposed to the Lend-Lease that American ships, flying the American . Let. me say right here that there has been Act. It is not my purpose to review the flag~ armed with guns obtained from the more misinformation, there has been more di:dusive and deceptive information, or mis­ argument at this time, but I do wish tq American Navy, manned by men of th'e information-! will not call it information­ point out that-it was only shortly' after American Navy, are to be ·sailed into bel'­ about this whole measure anti about the tile Lend-L_ease Act l!ad bee!} passed, ·and ligerent ports carrying actuar·and eut­ Embargo Act than any other similar measure the Seriate had been assured again and right contraband of war which is being within my recollection. : again and again that tliere.was no ques­ furnished to belligerents -out" ·of - pay­ A n:umber of people in the country have tion of delivery of goods involved in it, ments from the Treasury of the United been led to l:;lelieve that the United States is that on May 27, 1941, the Pz:esident de­ States. No :such proposal has ever been to furnish arms and ammunition; that the livered his unlimit~d-emergency speech, sanctioned in all the history of inter­ Government is to do it. Why, of co~se, the Goveriiinent is not going to spend a nickel in which he announced the patrols which national law. I venture ·the assertion. for arms and ammunition under this joint were _to be established in the AtJantic that· if the situation were reversed, our resolution. · The Government Will not furnish Ocean by our N~vy, and in which he Nation would be the first to protest and a 'single bayonet or a single bullet. • • • made further commltments of aid. then vigorously to resist. They simply· will be sold by our citizens. FURTHER STEPS TOWARD WAR I also venture to suggest, · Mr. Presi­ They will be sold to foreign governments and dent, that in this strange condition in foreign natiopals, it is tr.ue, but they will be On July 7, '1941, without consulting which the world today finds itself, the sold here on our own soil. Before they leave Congress, the President ordered the precedent which we are now and here our ports the title must be divested out of troops of the United States to a joint asked to establish on the part of the Gov­ American citizens. They must be placed, not occupation of Iceland, outside the \\·est­ upon American ships, but upon neutral or ernment of the United States may re­ other foreign · ships. · ern Hemisphere, and, in my opinion, con­ turn to plague us some day. trary certainly to the spirit of the law. I do not intend to go into any great He stated further on: At that time we were assured· that this detail insofar as the matter of sinking . Mr. President, I wish to conclude. What joint occupation of Iceland was to be of ships is concerned. I certainly do not is our plan? Our plan is to allow American only temporary. and th.a t we were to take justify tho-se sinkings. I think they are s.bips to carry no commerce-not merely arms over the occupation of Iceland. But we reprehensible. But I do take the posi­ and ammunition-but no commerce-to the now know, as a result of the letter writ­ tion that the sinkings to date, and even nations at war. • • • We propose that ten by the Senator from Michigan [Mr. all nations may buy the products of our farms the loss of American life to date, do not and factories, any · and everything, if they VANDENBERG], that there is a Joint Amer­ justify this Nation in going to war. al'e carried away in foreign ships. ican-British occupation of Iceland, and Mr. CLARK of Idaho. Mr. President# Then, Mr. President, we propose that Amer­ that if , or the forces un­ will the Senator yield? ican citizens shall not sail upon belUgerent de:.· her control, attack Iceland in order Mr. LA FOLLETI'E. I yield. ships. • • • to attack the British forces which are No ' American cargo destined for a nation stationed there, we and the British will Mr. CLARK of Idaho. I may observe at war can be sunk, because there will be no offer a joint defense. to the distinguished Senator from Wis­ American cargo bound for a nation at war. On September 11, 1941, the President consin that there has not been a single That is our answer. How much stronger of the United States delivered his ad­ American life lost on any merchaqt ves­ could we make it? What greater sacrifices dress ·to the Nation in which he an­ sel flying the American flag. could be asked? What greater assurance is Mr. LA FOLLETTE. That is true,>so ~emanded of our desire to stay out of war? nounced that he had issued orders to the Navy to shoot on sight "enemy" vessels. far as I know. LEND-LEASE DEBATE This was done without the approval or Mr. CLARK of Idaho. There were Mr. President, after the repeal of the consent of Congress, which has sole soine lives lost on the destroyer, the arms embargo came tht enactment of power to declare war. Kearny, which was struck by a torpedo. the Lend-Lease Act. I shall not take the In short, a reluctant people have .been I notice that the President this morning, time of the Senate to quote from the de­ taken step by step closer to the brink of in a message which was carried on the bates on tl:at occasion. They are suffi­ tne catastrophic struggle now going on in third page of the newspaper, stated that ciently recent so that I am sure that the Old World, and on each and every the Kearny was pursuing a submarine every Senator bears them freshly in his occasion when each step has been taken way off course when the torpedo struck recollection. Suffice it·to say that, with the people have been assured that it was her. But I think it is definitely true that but a few notable exceptions, those who there has not been an American life lost a mea~ of keeping them out of war. sponsored and steered the Lend-Lease so far on any ship :flying the American Act through the Senate assured the Sen­ NEUTRALITY LEGISLATION HAS ACCOMPLISHED fiag. PURPOSE ate and the country again and again and Mr. LA FOLLETI'E. Mr. President, again that there was no danger, as a Now we are asked by the administra­ when I spoke about loss of life I had in result of the Lend-Lease Act, of our being tion to gut the Neutrality Act. I want the mind the loss of life as the result of the drawn nearer to the war, so far as Amer­ RECORD to show that it is my deliberate torpedoing of the destrGyer, and it was ica was concerned. They said, in effect, judgment that the Neutrality Act has ac­ not my purpose to discuss these sinkings tbat it was .a means whereby we could complished the purposes for which it was at all except to say that, in my judg­ keep the United States from becoming intended. It has accomplished the pur­ ment, no matter how unjustifiable they involved in war. i:>ose of keeping the United States out of are-and I am willing to grant that they Senators will recall the debate over the war. It has, as it was intended to do, are unjustifiable-they do not, in my word "transfer." Some Senators were minimized the loss of American prop- opinion, create a sufficient cause for 1941 CONGRESSIONAL R .ECORD~SENATE 8319 ' plunging this Nation into the vortex of exception of .the Lehigh, were carrying did say that the Navy did not initiate the the European war. · contraband of war. policy of arming merchantmen. Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. President, will SHIP ARMING INEFFECTIVE Mr. BARKLEY. He so stated, and that the Senator yield? Turning now to another subject, I de­ statement has also been made in debate Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I am glad to yield sire to express my firm conviction that, heretofore. If it is to be repeated over to the Senator from Kentucky. from the standpoint of actual protection and over again that he made that state­ Mr. CHANDLER. I should like to say, of the ships, the arming of these mer­ ment, it ought to be repeated over and in answer to my friend the Senator from chant ships will prove to be a sad disap­ over again that the Navy favors the Idaho [Mr. CLARK], that stopping a ship pointment to those in Congress who sup­ policy, on the high seas and setting the crew port the measure, and to the sailors in Mr. LA FOLLETTE. So far as I am adrift in lifeboats is not exactly calcu­ our services who go on the high seas, if concerned, the senator is at liberty to lated to insure their safety. they are under the impression that these introduce Admiral Stark's testimony in · Mr. CLARK of Idaho. Mr. President, guns are going to furnish them pro­ f~ll at the conclUSion of my remarks, if will the Senator from Wisconsin yield tection. that will relieve him. further? First of all, I want to quote briefly from Mr. BARKLEY. I do not need any Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I yield. President Wilson's message to Congress relief: I simply did not want the Sen-:. . Mr. CLARK of Idaho. The only ship I on April 2, 1917, asking for a declaration 'ate or the country to get a wrong impres­ know of that was stopped by a submarine of war. I wish to quote briefly his con­ 'sion; I did not understand the Senator . in this hemisphere was the Robin Moor. ci_usion about' the experience of the couil- . as trying to create the imP,ression that . Am I correct in that statement; may I try with armed merchant ships . . Al­ ask-my distinguished colleague the Sen- - though the Congress, through the .filibus­ ·Admiral Stark or the Navy did not favor ator from Kentucky? ter, failed to pass the arm:d ship bill he the proposed legislation simply because · · Mr ~ CHANDLER. The Senator from . requested, he, upon the advice of the At­ they di~ ,not initiate it. . . Idaho said that no lives of men on our torney General, had nevertheless armed · : Mr. ·. LA FOU$TI'E. I am· certainly , merchantmen had . been lost. If you our merchant ships. sorry I gave an,y such impression. I state · stop the shfp in the ocean, and torpedo · President Wilson said: ag-ain th~t I_ ha!;l no _intention to. do ~o • . r:r:he fact remains that the . Navy D~-: the ship, and set its crew adrift in small , -When I addressed ,the _Congress on the 26th partment, which is charged with the re-_ boats, far away from port, that does not of February last I thought that it would suf­ give them very much insurance of reach- · fice to assert our neutral rights with arms, sponsibility of convoying and tl,le protec- _· 'our right to use the seas against unlawful in­ tion ·of our.shi:Ps on the high seas-t~ose · ing port, and if tliey die on~ the way to that are !l()ing to Iceland and those that . pprt you might as well kill them when terferenc~. our right to keep our people. safe . against unlawful violence. But armed neu­ are going-elsewhere-has stated positively you torpedo the ship. trality, it now appears, is impracticable. • • • that it did. not initiate -the proposal to · Mr. LA FOLLETTE. Mr. President, I Armed neutrality is inetlectual enough at arm ·merchant ships. In my own view · am not arguing at . all the point which best; in such circumstances and in the face that is a very significant statement. The · the Senator from . Kentucky raised. I . of such pretentions, it is worse than 1ne1Iec- _ Senator may place his own interpreta- simply wish to make the statement for tual; it is likely only to' produce what 1t was . tion upon 'it. ·. · . ' the RECORD that on the basis of the sink­ meant to prevent; it Is practically certain· to ·I wish to quote briefly at this point : bigs to date and the·loss of life, I do not . draw us Into ',he war without either the rights :or the_etlecttveness . of belligerents. from an article-by Col. -Frederick-Palmer : think· there is any justification-for the ·in the washington Star of October 13: - United States going to war on that issue. Admiral Stark testified before the- For- · ·The periscope of a submarine Is a sliver · . I also wish to point out that if the . eign Relations Committee that the ad­ of a target. If the periscope is not hit at . pending measure is passed, sinkin~s will ministration's request for armed ships 'once the submarine is wholly submerged. ~ It · tremendously increase. I also WISh to w·as not initiated by the Navy. Now, it is 'ts futile for a merchant ship to carry· depth ­ point out that there were no ships &unk true that arming our merchantmen -will - charges. She has not the destroyer's speed in the Red Sea while it was a 'barred result in causing the· Submarines making to make thein effective. zone. any e·ffort to attack our ships to do· so I should also like to quote from an · Mr. PEPPER. · Mr. President, will the .while they are submerged. article by Arthur Krock-- Senator yield? Mr. BARKLEY. Mr. President, will Mr. BARKLEY. Mr. President, will Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I do. the Senator yield? the Senator yield? -Mr. PEPPER. Since reference was -Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I do. Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I yield. made to the hemisphere lines; I wonder Mr'. BARKLEY. I am sure the Senator Mr. BARKLEY. I do not wish to in­ if the Senator has noted the places of from Wisconsin does not desire to leave terrupt the Senator, but . the distin,­ the various sinkings, so as to know the the impression with the Senate that Ad­ guished officer from whom the Senator number of · sinkings which occurred in miral Stark in stating that the Navy did has just quoted is an Army officer and the Eastern Hemisphere and the num­ not initiate the measure which we are not a naval officer. ber which occurred in the Western Hem- · now considering intended to express his -Mr. LA FOLLETTE. That is true. isphere? .. opposition to the propooed legislation. Mr. BARKLEY. He was an Army Mr. LA FOLLETTE. Yes. I have Mr. LA FOLLETI'E. On the contrary, officer. made a very careful notation and study Mr. Presiderit- ·Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I thought the of it, but it was not my purpose in my re­ Mr. BARKLEY. He made that state­ Senator would know that when I said. marks today to go into that, and I was ment, :-,nd it was a proper statement, be­ "Colonel Palmer." trying, I see now very unsuccessfully, to cause the Navy does not initiate ~ues­ . Mr.- BARKLEY. I did know it; but dismiss the details of sinkings by making tions of policy. But Admiral Stark very what I had in mind was that. having no effort under any circumstances to re­ clearly stated that he had opposed the been an Army officer, he would not be in view or to argue the occasion of the ships enactment of the neutrality ~aw in 1939 a position to testify as to the effective­ being sunk, but simply to make the state­ and was .very vigorously urging its mod~­ ness of depth bombs or periscopes to ment that so far as my own judgment is flcation at this time, and the mere ·state­ the same degree a naval officer might be concerned. there has not been a sufiicient ment that he did not initiate the pro­ able to testify on that subjeet. I think pattern established upon which to'justify posed ~egislation might unwittingly leave Admiral Stark and other naval officers plunging this Nation into the maelstrom the impression that he did not favor it. made it clear-at least to me-that the of war in the Old World. . Mr. LA FOLLE'I'TE. Of course, I do assumption which seems to be contained Mr. PEPPER. I wish to say to the not wish to leave such an implication. in Colonel Palmer's remarks is not alto­ Senator that it was more the question Admiral Stark testified before the com­ gether in harmony with their views. which was .propounded of the Senator mittee in favor of the repeal of section 6, Mr. LA FOLLETTE. That may be than his own statement that led me to and stated, as the Senator said, that he true; but I am submitting Colonel Palm­ make that inquiry. was not in favor of the Neutrality Act to er's opinion for whatever it is worth. Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I also wish to begin with. The only point I wish to Since he has written upon this subject, I point out,' Mr. President, that all the $ips make is that in res'ponse to a question by assume that he· has made an :effort to in­ which thus far have been sunk, with the the Senator from 'Iowa [Mr. GILLETTE] he fqrm himself: . 8320 CDNGRESSIONAL -RECORD-SENATE OCTOBER 29 . armed ships is,· I believe, from any point of . I also wish to quote from Mr. Arthur but apparently this ·is at the expense of badly needed gu.1s on naval vessels. As view, an unlimited act of war, and would · Krock's column in legally be so construed. recently as Septemb.er 18 t_he Secretary of October 2 this statement concerning : It is true that the country has committed the arming of merchantmen: is reported in the New York Times as numerous acts of war already, and that the · ·1n cold fact the British officers don't think :SaYing that the procurement of the nee-. arming of ships and sending them across the that arming merchantmen in itself is much :essary guns is a serious problem, and for 'Atlantic would be but another such act. But protection, largely because operation of the 'that reason the Nav~· had not made up there must be a point at which England's guns requires integrated training of a whole ;its mind about the arming of merchant enemies wlll forcibly resist these acts of war. · ship from the master down, plus a lot of fire­ :ships. 'sending armed ships with United States Gov­ control apparatus that only fully trained ' ·Also we know, Mr. President, that mer­ ernment munitions across the Atlantic can crews could operate. The number of men as­ ! c~ant vessels of 2,000 tOns or over in this hardly fail to be resisted by arms, so that far · signd in our Navy to the type of gun intended more American ships, cargoes, and lives will ; for merchantmen is a secret. But it is an Nation now number about 1,200. We probably be lost than is the case now. This awfully large number to include in a mer­ 'know that only a few hundred of them is especially true in view of the "shoot first" chant crew. ;can be armed over a considerable period orders already given to American naval ves­ ;of time. If we enact the proposed legis­ sels, orders that would probably be extended Further, he said: ilation we are in effect notifying Germany to armed merchant· vessels, as they were to Generally, according to information here, :and the that all our mer­ Britain's as early as 1915. By arming, tne the British have not made a practice of arm­ chantmen are armed, or, at least, they danger to American ships will obviously be . ing their merchant ships, preferring to put would then be in a position to assume that · increased, for there will be no warning. There the armament on destroyers that escort con­ :au our merchantmen were armed. There­ is very little evidence· that armament on mer­ voys and have aboard them crews who know chant ships constitutes genuine protection . . how to operate the guns and have enough fore we would run the risk of · attack If a submarine or plane were actually hit, it manpower for the duty. :without warning upon all ships flying the would be a lucky shot. The .armament is Should the enterprise of equipping the :American flag, and the large majority of more likely to be . a delusive protection, but · ships with arms prove as ineffective a~ the ·ships would not have even the protec­ it is certainly a snare and an invitation to expert testimony cited above represents that . jtion-if there be any-of the armament immediate destruction. tt would be, the interim step would hardly ,which it is now proposed to provide. A few words on the law are justified. A be worth the loss of time, property, and life. I Captain McCauley testified before the neutral merchant ship may arm to protect its Senate committee that only compara­ neutral rights--not on its own responsibility . According to information furnished by but on the responsibility of its government. Admiral Stark to the House Foreign Af­ tively few of the present merchantmen · The United States went through this experi­ fairs Committee, no armed merchant have been constructed under the specifi­ ence in March 1917. and the files may be vessel was officially credited with fatally· cations of . the Maritime Commission, studied. If a neutral ship arms, however, lt damaging any vessel during the last war. which would permit immediate arming loses and forfeitS all its immunities as a mer­ However, 35 armed merchant ships were without structural changes in the ships. chantman. If it fires or threatens to fire sunk in the last. war, with the loss of 58 ARMED SHIPS IN INTERNATIONAL LAW upon a belligerent warship, it forfeits its lives. status as a neutral and may be treated as an Mr. President, let us wave aside all that. armed enemy ship. Even if it does not shoot In this connection I wish to quote two Let us wave aside the question of whether at warships, it exposes itself, its passengers excerpts from Admiral Sims. On June or not arming merchantmen will give and crew to sinking at sight, for a warship, 28, 1917, he sent this communication more or less protection to the ships and especially a submarine, cannot stop to in­ from London to t~e N:1vy Department: quire about the nationality, destination, and to their crews. What would be the posi­ cargo of an armed ship. All this is true even Guns are no defense against torpedo at­ tion of our ships if we should pass the tack without warning. In .this area alone if the cargo is innocent cargo, noncontraband during the last 6 weeks 30 armed ships were proposed legislation? Armed merchant­ in character. But when the cargo consists sunk by torpedoes without a submarine be­ men could legitimately be treated as war­ of munitions of war sent by the United States ing seen. ships. In this connection I wish to quote to a belligerent country, the ship or cargo a statement from Professor Hyde: cannot claim to be either neutral or innocent; . In his book entitled "Victory at Sea," nor can any immunity from immediate at­ The merchantman when equipped with a be said: tack be claimed for such cargo or ship in any gun of great destructive force and long range sea. Moreover, if only some American ships All of the experience in thiS submarine becomes itself a valuable weap.on of offense. are armed, all American ships are exposed to campaign to date demonstrates that it would The master is encouraged to engage any pub­ equal danger of unwarned attack. be a seriously dangerous ~isapprehension to lic vessel of the enemy, of inferior defensive base our action on the assumption that any strength and of whatsover type, which comes Were the ship unarmed, even carrying con­ armament on merchantmen is any protec­ traband, it could claim immunity from sink­ within range, and that irrespective ot whether ing at sight; it could be sunk only if the tion against submarines which are willing the latter initiates hostilities. As the mer­ to use their torpedoes. captor was unable to bring it into a prize chantman by ·reason of its armament may be court, possibly only if the contraband ex­ Maj. George Fielding Eliot-who, I · deemed by the enemy to be justly subjected ceeded certain proportions set out in the to attack without warn~ng, the master may Declaration of London, and if provision is hasten to add, bears the title of an A:rmy fairly regard himself as on the defensive, officer, but who purports to be an ex­ made in acco:r;dance with the 1930 Treaty of whenever his ship. is pursued by an enemy London for the safety of passe,ngers and crew. pert on questions of national defense­ vessel of war, or even sighted by one. Thus That is some protection against the loss of . stated: the armed merchantman, although_ its chief life, even in dangerous waters. But all that In fact, the principal result of arming mission be the transportation of passei;J.gers protection, whatever it may be-and up to merchant ships was to compel the sub­ and freight, becomes necessarily a participant now, it Is believed, no American life on an marines to attack without warning. • • * in the conflict. American merchant ship has been lost-is · It is just as true now as it was in 1917 that, • the equipment of a belligerent . forfeited by arming the ships, whether it be against submerged attack, without warning, merchant marine for hostile service, even called for defense or offense. Armament guns are no defense. * ·* * It must not though defensive rather than offensive, thus increases the danger to human life. be supposed that arming merchant vessels serves, on principle, to deprive the armed ves­ Of course, United States naval vessels on is in any way a solution of the submarine sels of the right to claim immunity from war missions to Iceland or Europe can claim or air-attack p~oblem. attack without warning. no immunity. SHORTAGE OJ' GUNS Also I submit an excerpt from a state­ The war zones declared by the belliger­ ment of Edwin Borchard, eminent legal ents, extending far out to sea, have no stand- . Rear Admiral Blandy testified before ing in international law and any suggestion . the Committee on Foreign Relations of authority of the Yale Law School: that a belligerent may sink an unarmed the Senate that a shortage exists in anti­ The proposal to arm merchant ships can neutral merchant ship 1n such zones is with­ aircraft guns, that the guns which would hardly be considered independently of the out warrant. Such a claim, on the part of be used for arming our merchant vessels President's request that Congress 11ft the the. United States, how.ever, 1s somewhat if the pending measures should pass are statutory ·restrictions which . bar American · weakened by the fact that American officials identical with guns needed for general ships from the dangerous combat zones and seem to be making a claim to far-reaching belligerent ports. I can understand the de­ "defense zones," or "American defense wa­ naval uses, and that arming merchant mand to use American flag ships to deliver ters," undefined, in which belligerent acts will vessels with those guns would, as he military equipment to the Allied Govern­ not be tolerated. There is no foundation tor said, be choosing between two necessary ments, but this can hardly be justified as a any such claim, any more than there is a uses. step short of war, or the armament of the right to protest against the sinking of ships Secretary Knox has said that there ships as a protection to them. To deliver under foreign, even -American flags, es­ are guns for arming the merchant ships, United States- military equipment in· such pecially !hips that-are carrying contraband or 1941 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE 8321 are under convoy to belligerent destinations. ing the American fiag have not generally been won, as was suggested yesterday by the Any claim to immunity for American ships sunk, even by the Nazis. I do not believe Senator from Florida [Mr. PEPPER]. in or out of belligerent war zones would be that the Nazis' actions have been controlled completely defeated by the fact that they by a feeling of respect fer international law, through the mere furnishing of materials were armed, even 1f they were not carrying but an issue is not clarified by misleading and supplies. The highest British mm.:. mtlitary supplies from the United States Gov­ statements such as listings of torpedoed ves­ tary authorities have stated positively ernment to aid one belligerent only. To call sels in which there was merely some Ameri­ that the only way in which this war can this claim a demand for the freedom of the can interest, and without reference to other be won is by an expeditionary force on seas is to misuse terms. vital factors, such as belligerent convoy, and the Continent of Europe. In short, this It thus appears that the sending of Ameri­ so forth. We should realize that if we arm can vessels with United States Government­ our merchant vessels and send them out war cannot be won by naval blockade. owned or sold ammunition or supplies to under existing conditions, we are putting on In my judgment, it is a tragic mistake one favored belligerent Is not innocent neu­ the seas tonnage which may be sunk without to make that assumption. The naval tral trade but an act of war in the strongest any violation of law. If Congress should then blockade is no doubt pinching the Axis sense, entailing all the consequences of bel· take the second step of repealing more of Powers; but because of their ruthless con­ ligerency. If this should be disputed and it the Neutrality Act to permit these ships to quest of territory it cannot and will not should be claimed without legal warrant, enter combat zones, we must expect a large be the effective weapon that it was in that the trade is privileged, then the ships, number of them to be attacked without warn­ cargoes, anci crew and passengers would ing. I am quite ready to admit that the the last war. The best evidence which probably be safer from unwamed attack and Nazis would sink them anyway in combat I am able to obtain indicates that a sinking if they were unarmed. By arming zones and I regard the possible repeal of sec­ Qnited States Army of from 8,000,000 to they lose and forfeit the last vestige of a tion 2 of the Neutrality Act as more serious. 10,000,000 men will be required if we are claim against unwarned attack and sinking. The Nazis give no special legal rights to their to attempt to invade the continent of Indeed, if the United States Government naval vessels by marking oft great areas of Europe. arms its vessels on such missions, it com­ the seas as danger zones; the United States So, firmly believing that ther,e can be mits an act of war. The issue should be gives no special legal rights to its merchant no "partial war," firmly believing that considered on that basis.-EDWIN BoacHARD. or naval vessels by marking oft great areas o! the seas as defensive zones this war cannot be won by naval war­ Finally, I submit excerpts from a PHILIP C. JE...CISt:rP. fare, I think the most important issue .statement of Philip C. Jessup, another that we have to decide is the question of recognized authority on international GREATER JEOPARDY TO AMERICAN LIVES war or peace. law: We know, Mr. President, that if tl)e As I understand them, the two major proposed legislation is enacted, the ships . That international law does not forbid a premises upon which the people of this nonbelllgerent or even a neutral government are to be manned. and omcered by crews country have been urged to go to war by to arm its merchantmen is, of course, true and officers from the United States Navy; the war party are, first, to fight foi: but relatively Immaterial. The important and we know what are the present or­ foreign trade and fi'ee markets; second, question is, What are the legal consequences, ders to the United States Navy. They are to avert a foreign invasion-the-buga.;. under international law, when a peaceful to "shoot on sight." boo which is used to ·frighten many of merchant vessel is thus armed? The subject As to what this m-eans, let me quote our people. It is my purpose now briefiy was very fully discussed during the last Great War, and much has been written on the sub­ Admiral Stark. He admitteq the policy . to discuss these two propositions in order. Ject since then. One legal consequence of would probably involve greater loss of life FOREIGN TRADE AND FREE MARKETS arming a merchant vessel is to change the wh.en he acknowledged in the hearings: As I view the situation, Mr. President, vessel's character; she loses a vital part of I say that the armed ship is more likely to most of the old concepts of international her status as a merchant vessel and assumes escape, although occasionally you might lose trade are no longer applicable. New sys .. some of the risks which attend a combatant a lot of lives where you would not otherwise. vezsel in time of war. As the ofHcial Commis­ tems of trade involve transactions for sion of Jurists under American chairmanship­ Let me also quote from a statement the most part between governments, and pointed out at The Hague in 1923: "The made by Admiral McClain, of our Navy, not between individuals. Since the last moun tlng of arms in time of war may be made in 1930 before the Senate Com­ war governments have been more inter­ construed as prima facie evidence of an in­ mittee on Naval Affairs: ested in economic independence than in tention take part in hostilities." This to The most effective step toward humanizing old theories of lowest comparative pro­ consequence is especially clear when the ves­ duction costs as related to world trade. sel operates under shoot-at-sight orders of a the use of submarines in war would, in my government which has been at pains to make opinion, have been a provision forbidding the Governments have found that they can known that it is seeking to encompass the arming of merchant vessels when on a peace­ exercise more economic power by con­ defeat of one of the belligerents and that it ful mission. • • • A submarine in the last trol of trade; and therefore for the past is operating on the theory that offense is the war fired without warning purely because he decade or more there has been a defi­ best defense. In such cases the merchant­ knew that as soon as he exposed himself to nite trend in the direction of increased man is, in legal contemplation, offensively give warning he would be shot at by the mer­ chant vessel. To my mind, the question of governmental interest and control by armed. As has frequently been pointed out, means of export and import control ar­ an armed merchant vessel can fight a sub­ disarming a merchant vessel is the secret of the whole thing. • • • rangements. marine on terms of at least equality and While I would be the first to concede usually of superiority. The superiority is Mr. President, it is my contention that clear if the submarine comes to the surface that there are many disadvantages, both to fulfill the duty of visit and search nor­ if we adopt the joint resolution which political and economic, in a system of mally imposed by international law. The proposes the repeal of the three most governmental trading or trading control, law, however, does not require a belllgerent vital sections of the Neutrality Act we it is the situation we must be prepared submarine to commit the suicidal act of ris­ shall have removed the last barrier which to face. Obviously, it is not a one-edged ing to the surface near a vessel which carries stands between the people of this country sword. a gun capable of destroying the submarine and actual involvement in war. and which is under orders· to shoot the sub­ Governments choosing to exercise such marine at sight. Our attention is drawn to THE ISSUE OF WAR OR PEACE collective economic power simply invite the London Naval Treaty of 1930 with its Therefore, I think that when Senators competitors to use similar methods. If rules on submarines, which Germany ac­ vote upon this issue they will be voting that is to be the kind of world trade with cepted. The London treaty, however, like upon the issue of peace or war. I am which we shall be confronted in the fu­ the prior Washington draft treaty, dodged convinced that if we repeal these essen­ ture-and I fear, Mr. President, that it the problem of the armed merchantman. For tial sections of the Neutrality Act, if we will be, war or no war-there is no rea­ the reasons stated above, I think it clear that an offensively armed merchantman is send our merchantmen armed and in son on earth why the United States can­ not entitled to claim the treatment due to convoys through belligerent waters and not beat any combination at this game, a merchant vessel under the London treaty. have them discharge actual contraband because, collectively, in economic re­ I am quite aware that Jt is charged that of war in belligerent ports, our ships will sources we are the most powerful nation German submarines pay no attention to in­ be sunk and lives will be lost. In my on earth. Furthermore, the United ternational law anyhow. Somewhat Ulogi­ opinion, this w111 be the :final softening­ States and the Western Hemisphere can cally, we have been told also that because of be as self-sufficient and as powerful as the Nazis' general disregard of international up process in an effort to bring a reluc­ law, the Nazis are not entitled to invoke tant people to a willingness to accept any foreseeable combination of nations international law as a Justification for even actual hostilities. in the Old World. such of their acts as may be legal. As a mat­ But further than that, Mr. President, In-thinking about the old concepts of ter ot fact, we know that merchantmen fiy- I am convinced that this war cannot be international trade we are prone to fall 8322 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE OCTOBER 29 to realize that the march of science and we loaned our allies in the last war about undertake, in the near· future, the most invention has tended, and will continue .$10,000,000,000, with which, it is true, they staggering military adventure in all his­ to tend, in the direction of breaking down bought American goods. But they did tory across from three to six thousand and making less important those old not repay the dollars. In the 1920's we miles of ocean, desert, jungles, and moun­ concepts of free . international trade. loaned to countries abroad another $10,- tains. The shipping tonnage necessary l'he scientists' ability -to change atomic 000,000,000, or approximately that sum, to transport and supply an. overseas mil­ structure and to develop substitute raw and in return we got nicely engraved itary expedition in modern warfare is materials is a large contributing factor. stocks and bonds as certifi0ates of the almost incomprehensible. Self-sufficiency grows with the invention investment. Those securities are now To supply an army of 1,000,000 men of every substitute or synthetic product. nearly all worthless. That investing was in this hemisphere would require at least We are :finding that often the substitutes responsible for much of the foreign trade 13,000,000 tons of shipping, according to or synthetic products are better than the which we enjoyed in the 1920's. an objective estimate of the military and originals. This revolution in technology Then in the 1930's we spent about naval expert of the New York Times, is having, and will continue to have, an another $10,000,000,000 in the purchase Mr. Hanson W. Baldwin, which, so far as important effect not only on the eco­ of gold at a premium. By that exchange I know, never has been publicly disputed nomics of foreign trade but also on inter­ we sold goods abroad. That was the pri­ by other military authorities. The trans­ national politics. The drive toward im­ mary basis of our trade abroad in the portation of a small force of 50,000 men perialism, war, and world conquest falls thirties. Now, we are giving up to would require 375,000 tons, perhaps 40 fiat when the scientist can produce in $13,000,000,000 in lend-lease materials ships. Double that tonnage, perhaps his back yard the materials over which purchased with money out of the Treas­ quadruple that tonnage, would be neces­ past wars have been fought. ury of the United States. Of course, this sary monthly to supply such a force, ac­ It is foolish, therefore, to think in is appearing in our foreign-trade statis­ cording to the same authority. In other terms of international police to divide tics. words, half the original German mer­ the world's raw materials. Any nation chant marine would be necessary to sup­ such as America can, if need be, develop Thus, Mr. President, we have spent ply merely 50,000 men. commercially what scientists have ex­ about $43,000,000,000 since 1913 to stimu­ We are asked by these apostles of the plored, and, although such products late our foreign exports. The attempt to war party to believe that this military might cost more, the additional cost tell the American people that one of the adventure will occur in the face of sul­ would be in nowise commensurate with reasons why we must participate in the len opposition and smoldering revolt the alternative cost of carrying on European war is to protect our markets among 500,000,000 or more plotting Ger­ war in order to maintain world markets abroad is simply too ridiculous to war- man-dominated Britons, Frenchmen, or sources of ·supply of raw materials-­ rant further discussion. . Austrians, Poles, Norwegians, Czechs, or of policing the world in order to con­ I should not want to be put in the Danes, Hungarians, Hollanders, Greeks, trol markets or sources of supply once position of saying that I am opposed to Yugoslavs, and the people of Soviet peace has been achieved. No matter helping people who are in · distress; it Russia. what may be the outcome of the present may be very necessary for us, when the A further argument of fear is that the war, assuming that this country does not war is over, to go to the aid of prostrate Germans may win the war and seize the become involved, the economic future of peoples, to feed them, and to rehabilitate British Fleet. The Secretary of State is this Nation is not at stake. them; but let us not fool ourselves into responsible for the statement that he We face, in my opinion, a difficult thinking that the result would be world has received an assurance from Prime foreign trade outlook and, undoubtedly, trade in the 1913 concept. Let us rec­ Minister Churchill that under no cir:.. an economically united Europe no mat­ ognize it for what it is-a giant Work cumstances will the British Fleet be sur­ ter how the war may result. But I am Projects Administration project to in­ rendered. It is preposterous, it is an in­ firmly convinced that America will be crease our trade. sult to the traditions of the British Navy, able to compete successfully with a united If the farmers of this country, 1f the to contend that it would surrender. It Europe. This opinion is shared by many manufacturers of this country, need seems to me that upon this particular of our most prominent businessmen, and money with which to :finance their ex­ proposition the interventionists are especially by those who have had any ports, it would be much better to be placed in a position in which they must experience in South American competi­ frank about it, and provide the funds either accept Mr. Churchill's word and tion with the Axis Powers. But, even if directly rather than through the medium solemn pledge that the British Fleet we were not able to compete, only 5 per­ of loans and gifts abroad. never will be surrendered, or they must cent of our economy would be directly HYSTERIA OF INVASION have grave doubts when they view our affected adversely-less than 5 percent Now, Mr. President, I wish to speak entrance into a partnership in a war of our national output normally goes into briefiy about another aspect of the situa­ which may last for 5 or 10 years. foreign trade-and there would be com­ tion, namely, the attempt to scare the Mr. WHEELER. Mr. President, will pensating production and employment in people of America into thinking that they the Senator yield? the domestic substitutes for presently must go into the war in the Old World Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I yield. imported articles. · in order to save themselves from inva­ Mr. WHEELER. The Senator spoke The major problems which we will sion at home. Of all the varied and often about the amount of money that was face will be of our own making as the re­ contradictory arguments used to high­ loaned by us to our Allies in the World sult of lend-lease activities. One of the pressure the American people into reluc­ War. I desire to call attention to a serious challenges arising out of the lend­ tant acceptance of the philosophy of in­ statement showing the amount of money lease policy in the future will be the reper­ tervention and war, the one with the that our nationals loaned to Germany cussions as the result of the distorted greatest sales appeal has been the hys­ after the war. It is a statement that markets and abnormal channels of trade terical cry of imminent invasion. was made by Lord Beaverbrook in Can­ produced by our lend-lease activities. Spokesman after spokesman has pounded ada, and was published in the Toronto A serious economic problem will arise at America's faith in herself and has Globe on August 17, 1931. out of the total inability of the prostrate made us contemptible in the eyes of the Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I shall be glad peoples of Europe to buy our goods, ex­ world with our moaning of weakness and to have the Senator do so. cept when financed by our money, In imminent collapse. Hitler had to or­ Mr. WHEELER. He points out that short, Mr. President, any contention that ganize "fifth columns" to soften and sap the United States loaned to Germany we have any stake in world trade worth the moral fiber of Belgium, Norway, Hol­ £165,000,000 of short-term money and the economic, social, and political conse­ land, and France before contemplating £600,000,000 of long-term money. He quences of our involvement in the war actual conquest of those nations. In this says: now raging in the Old World is a fan­ country the faith of America in America No man would conceive that such huge fig­ tastic pipe dream. ures could be reached. They were a revela­ is being battered to bits by Americans. tion to the world. It is fortunate for Great GOVERNMENT FINANCING OF AMERICAN FOREIGN The apostle of fear would have us believe Britain that New York is more heavily in­ TRADE that, after several years of stupendous volved. France, on the other hand, has prac;,. Since 1913 we have had very little world war effort, Nazi Germany, with a popula­ tically no money out in Germany. About trade in the old sense. In the :first place. tion of 80,000,000, will be in a position to £5,000,000 will cover all her short-term credita. 1941 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE 8323 Then he says Great Britain has made discover that fact until after the war was still a battle going on for the pres­ loans to Germany of £100,000,000 in was over. ervation of the British Empire. And I short-term obligations and £50,000,000 in Mr. LA FOLLETTE. I thank the say that if their commitments in that long-term obligations. He goes on to Senator. . respect are not good, then I certainly point out that the situation is so serious Mr. President, coming back for a min­ would dread the day when I saw the war that there may be a collapse in England, ute before I conclude on this question of party take my country into war with and says it would probably mean that it the effort to create a hysteria in this Britain as a partner, a war which may would be necessary to set up a national country and a fear of invasion, I have last from 5 to 10 years, or even longer. government in Great Britain. What does asserted as my own opinion that the Mr. CHANDLER. The Senator knows he mean by "a national government" in British never will surrender their fleet, what happened to the French Fleet. Great Britain? Of course, he means and have stated that Churchill has made Every assurance was given that .they some form of temporary dictatorship. that solemn pledge, and that if his word would never surrender, and that the Brit­ He says-this is a dispatch from Halifax is not good on that subject it certainly ish would get the fleet. But when they under date of August 16, 1931: is not good on others, and I would not demanded it and tried to get it, they·had Startling figures, totaling hundreds of mil­ like to regard him as a partner, if I were to go to Oran and sink part of it, and a lions of dollars, and representing short-term a member of the war party, in a war part of it got away. I do not know what credits extended to Germany by Great Britain which may risk the very fate of the a government does when it no longer and the United States, form the crux of to­ United States over a period of 8 or 9 exists. I cannot see how a government day's world financial crisis, declared Lord years. can keep commitments when it does not Beaverbrook, Canadian-born British news­ Mr. CHANDLER. Mr. President, will paper peer, in an interview with the Haltfax exist. my friend yield at that point? Mr. LA FOLLETTE. The Senator Herald. • • • Mr. LA FOLLETTE. Yes; I will. That efforts in Great Britain to deal with must assume that Great Britain has been this situation would likely result ln the for­ Mr. CHANDLER. I -am one of those invaded and completely conquered, and mation of a national government was the pre­ who have the fear that perhaps, if Eng­ if the British Fleet is going to run away diction to be read into Lord Beaverbrook's land were forced to capitulate, or fer from the battle of Britain in order to re­ comment on methods which probably would any reason were overrun by the Ger­ main intact, then I do not think we can do be pursued in the old country. mans, there would be no government in very much to help Britain with the Lend­ England, and there would be nobody I call that statement to the attention Lease Act, or even if we get into war to there to keep their commitments. save her. · of the Senator because it is in line with Mr. LA FOLLETTE. That may be what he has been-stating in regard to Mr. President, the representatives of true; but if such a situation should be the war party say that even if the British how cur world trade grew as a result of created that Great Britain had no gov­ the money we poured into Germany and Fleet is not surrendered the shipbuilding ernment at all, the Senator from Ken­ capacity which the Nazis will then have, other countries. tucky does not think the British Fleet Mr. LA FOLLETTE. Mr. President, I manned by slave labor in Europe, will would have stayed away from the battle result in their being able to build a fleet do not think there can be any argument which produced that situation and still about that. The economic result of our so big that it could come here and smash be intact, does he? the United 'States. On that score, and $10,000,000,000 of war loans, which were Mr. CHANDLER. I should like to have never repaid, was, of course, a tremen­ in answer to that contention, I wish to my friend remember what happened to quote from the article which Mr. Hanson dous amount of trade during the war. the French Fleet. I happen to have some Then the $10,000,000,000 which we loaned W. Baldwin wrote for the Reader's Digest information about that. The French in August 1S41: abroad during the twenties, which were vowed that they never would surrender never repaid for the most part, was also the F1·ench Fleet; but what actually hap­ We need not fear being outbuilt in a naval a very important factor in our trade at race, even should Hitler be able to turn all pened was this: The Germans got the Europe and England to the task. One au­ that time. I think no one will question names of the skippers, the commanders, thority has estimated the shipbuilding ca­ that the $10,000,000,000 of foreign gold the officers, and the men, and radioed pacity of Germany, her conquered lands, and which we have purchased resulted in the them and said to them in simple lan­ her allies, at 3,200,000 tons, and of Britain establishment of dollar exchange in the guage: "We have your families, your at 2,500,000 tons-a total of 5,700,000 tons a United states whereby those countries year. Assume that Hitler could get the full women and children. Bring that ship benefit of this, an assumption which disre­ were able to buy the products of this back to port! If you do not bring it back Nation for export. Now we have appro­ gards damage already done to shipyards by to port, you can just guess what will bombs and ignores the ineftlciency of sullen, priated about $13,000,000,000 for lend­ .happen to them." conquered labor. Still we could meet the lease purposes-with the end not yet in I do not know what the British would challenge, for we shall turn out 1,100,000 sight-which we are giving to Great Brit­ do with their fleet, but I am one of those tons of merchant ships alone this year, and ain and the other nations that are the who are a little bit fearful about what next year 3,000,000, and more than 5,000,000 beneficiaries of our generosity in this might happen to it in the event they lost tons in 1943. And simultaneously we are world situation, and, of course, that will the war and were forced to make some pushing forward a naval building program be exported in American goods. But to just about equal to the combined programs sort of surrender. If the Germans or­ .of all the rest of the world, including the contend that we live in the kind of a dered those aboard a British battleship British Empire. . world that existed before 1913, and that to bftng the ship to port, I do not know there is substantial amounts of so-called what they would do. The Government HARD, COLD FACTS OVERLOOKED BY WAR PARTY free trade in the world, to go out and would be gone. There would not be any­ Mr. President, very briefly I wish to wage a war for, in my opinion, :flies right body then to speak for the Government. enumerate a few other hard, cold facts in the face of all our experience. It is If the British Fleet should fall into the which the war party overlooks. one of the most preposterous of the rea­ hands of the Germans, will the Senator They overlook the development and sons which the war party has advanced address himself to what might happen if the importance from a military stand­ for getting into the war. we faced that sort of prospect? point of shore-based bombers. On this Mr. SHIPSTEAD. Mr. President, will Mr. LA FOLLETTE. The Senator's point I wish to quote from an article the Senator yield for a short observa­ assumption is a wild one. There is all which Col. Thomas R. Phillips, of our tion? the British Empire remaining, no matter Army General Staff, wrote and which Mr. LA FOLLETTE. Yes; I yield. what happens to England. Under all the was published in the Army Ordnance Mr. SHIPSTEAD. I believe it was re­ circumstances, it is preposterous to as­ magazine. He said that- corded in the press, and never denied, sume that the British Fleet is going to the bombing plane has made the American that Woodrow Wilson, on his return from be surrendered. But even if it were sur­ coast impregnable to invasion. France after his last trip there, made a rendered, upon the basis of such testi­ It makes it possible for this country to in­ sure not only its own continental territory speech in St. Louis in which he pointed mony and information as I have been from invasion but by the provision of a suit­ to the fact that the tragedy of World able to gather, we need not fear the re­ able air base and airways system to insure the War No. 1 which had disillusioned him sult, so far as actual invasion is con­ 1mpregnab1Uty of North and South America. was that he admitted that it was in fact a cerned. But I refuse to believe that the Even if the United States had no harbor commercial war. He evidently did not British Navy would surrender while there defenses, it would be impregnable to invasion. 8324 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE OCTOBER 29 And this still would be true if our Navy tection of larger nations. Witness what I do not want to see the war party bring were inferior to an invading power. Land­ has happened in this war. Great Britain some form of fascism to power in Amer­ based air power has made the United States had an expeditionary force on the Conti­ ica by taking this Nation into an over­ impregnable to a sea-borne invasion. nent of Europe. Was she able to protect seas war. Colonel Phillips in his article quoted the territorial integrity of the nations What is the real menace of nazi-ism, Prime Minister Churchill on the failure whose sovereignty and integrity the war communism, and fascism? Once · you of Norway. Churchill said it came party now believes we must go to Europe strip off the hideous aspects, the brutal­ about- to restore? ity, the ruthless repression of civil liber­ by intense, continuous bombings of the bases, Another hard fact which I think the ties, the persecution of minorities-what which prevented the landing of any large war party overlooks is the size of the is the real challenge behind these ene­ reinforcements and even of artlllery for the Axis armies, 500 war-hardened, veteran mies of democracy? The real challenge, infantry already landed. divisions. Against them can -Be mus­ Mr. President, is whether the democratic Further in the article Colonel Phillips tered probably 50 British divisions, some form of government can solve the prob­ said: of which have seen actual war service, lems presented by a modern industrial some of which have not, and our 50 divi­ society; whether we can put our idle Leaving aside naval interference, imagine sions, most of them composed of raw re­ manpower, productive capacity, and cap­ a convoy of 40 or 50 troop ships crossing the cruits, who have not been able to get the 3,000 miles of Atlantic Ocean toward the ital to work; whether we can afford an United States. The departure of such an necessary material with which to train opportunity to youth; whether we can invading force could not be kept secret. for modern war, because we have been give the aged in our society in their de- Our defending bombers would start at­ diverting a major portion of it abroad . clining years security; whether, in short, tacking it a thousand miles from the coast. under the lend-lease program. we can make our economic system func­ The attacks would grow in intensity as the Mr. President, I yield to no one, in the tion. These are the real challenge be­ convoy approached. The invasion might not Senate or outside it, in my supreme con­ hind all the hideous aspects of nazi-ism. be stopped before it reached the coast, but fidence in the potential capacity of this And I think, Mr. President, one of the it would be badly damaged. Nation and its people, but I say, despite Imagine, then, this convoy attempting to tragedies of the policies of the war party come into a harbor and remaining practically that supreme confidence, it is neverthe­ is that they have turned their backs upon stationary for days in narrow waters with less a physical fact that we call spread the vital problems at stake in the world the entire bombing force avallable to the our strength out so thin over this globe today and seek to solve them by a mad United States working on it. that we will weaken ourselves. military adventure 3,000 miles away from The picture is incredible. The invasion Can we supply materials of war for our shores. would be doomed. No military leader would ourselves, for Great Br!tain, for Russia, The Old World is in a state of revolu­ ever think of making. such an attempt. and for China? Russia had 9,000,000 tion. This is no time for emotionalism Mr. President, let us reverse the situa­ men under arms on the continent of to dictate high national policy. Hang­ tion, and think of this Nation attempt­ Europe, with no problem of overseas ing Hitler will not solve the problems ing, in conjunction with the British, the transport or the establishment of bridge­ that created him. War, in other words, Russians, or any other people who may heads. When Lord Beaverbrook re­ modern, total war, has become such a be available at the time we are ready, turned from his last visit to Moscow he destructive force that it is not the in­ to establish bridgeheads in Europe under reported the Russians in the position, so strumentality with which any nation or the conditions which Colonel Phillips has far as material was concerned, that the group of nations can solve grave do­ described. Yet, if the pending measure British were in when they evacuated mestic and international economic prob­ shall be enacted, if we shall gut the Neu­ from Dunkirk. We have not been able to lems. That experience should have been trality Act, just as certainly as night supply the British with enough tanks. learned from World War No. 1. That follows day, the war party will ultimately Are we in a position to furnish Russia war only served to intensify, to magnify, face the necessity of a military invasion enough material, when we have not been and to make more ditncult of solution in Europe. able to supply Great Britain with sufil­ the economic problems which existed be­ I pause long enough to say that one of cient tanks, and when everyone knows fore it happened. This war will prove the most incomprehensible examples of we do not have sutncient tanks for our­ to be even more devastating in its eco­ war party mental gyrations is their selves? nomic consequences. hysterical fear that Hitler can take POSSmiLITY OF A SEPARATE PEACE The statesmen in Europe found no so­ America whenever he gets good and Another hard fact which I think the lution in the 21 years after World War ready, but in the next breath they say war party overlooks is the possibility of No. 1 for the economic problems which we can go 3,000 miles across the ocean, separate peace upon the part of these that war created. We found no solu­ establish bridgeheads on the Continent nations we are asked to join in war. tion for our problems here at home. But of Europe, and lick the pants off the Today most nations are forced to deter­ now it is proposed to solve the problems Germans with one hand tied behind our mine policy on a basis of self-interest r of Europe, of Asia, of Africa, and of the back in the Pacific. and military necessity. Some Americans Western Hemisphere, by our joining tn Another point which I think the war may believe that Britain is fighting our a mad military and naval adventure party overlooks is the vulnerability of war. The people in Britain do not think which may take from 5 to 10 years or the British Isles. That is our only pres­ so. They are fighting heroically to de­ longer. ent bridgehead in Europe, and is sur­ fend their homeland and to preserve the What kind of a solution are you who rountled by air bases from Norway to the British Empire. When those objectives advocate this policy going to find for tip of France. have been attained, will they make peace the teeming millions of China, who TRANSFUSIONS FOR THE BRITISH EMPmB or will they not? I confess I do not through countless generations have Another thing which I think the war know. But I confess that it is a prob­ never been able to lift themselves up party overlooks is the economic decline lem which I think should have the great­ out of poverty? What kind of solution of the British Empire. It is no longer a est consideration from those who are are you going to find for the teeming paying economic unit, and if we engage in assuming responsibility to take this Na­ millions of India, who through the cen­ the partnership which is envisioned in tion into war. turies have been exploited and degraded the repeal of the Neutrality Act we not MENACE OF NAZI-ISM, COMMUNISM, FASCISM and humiliated? Have you some answer only will have to furnish the manpower Mr. President, I hate nazi-ism, com­ to that? to secure the military victory necessary to muniGm, and fascism as much as any I say to you that war is no answer achieve this objective but thereafter we man in this country. I detest them be­ to it, for war will create more teeming will have to give economic transfusions to cause I have seen them at work. I saw millions who are poverty stricken and the British Empire to keep it a going Italy and Russia under dictatorship in diseased and undernouriEhed. concern. 1923. In that year I saw the final prep­ What will you do with your four free­ Another hard fact which I think the aration by economic events for the ad­ doms in that kind of a world when war party overlooks is the increased diffi­ vent .of Hitler in Germany. I was in the Four Horsemen · of the Apocalypse culty of defending small nations. The Germany in 1937 and saw the Nazis are riding? development of aircraft has made it nec­ working their brutalitarian machine. I The plain fact of the matter is, Mr. essary for small nations to seek the pro- hate them so much, Mr. President, that President, that democracy cannot live in 1941 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SENATE 8325 a starved economy. It must have a lush Snuff it out here, and perchance count­ · The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without economic environment in which· to nur­ less generations may pass before it is objection, the nominations in the Army ture the "four freedoms" and all the oth­ lighted again. are confirmed en bloc. ers. Get into this war and the economic Mr. President, I am opposed to the THE NAVY fat will be burned off from this Nation. joint resolution because I think that in The war party is sowing the seeds of in­ its ultimate consequences it threatens The legislative clerk proceeded to read tolerance, communism, and fascism right the destiny of democracy in America and sundry nominations in the Navy. here in the United States of America. the world. Mr. BARKLEY. I ask that the nomi­ When the devastating war is over you Mr. THOMAS of Utah. Mr. Presi­ nations ip the Navy be confirmed en will reap the crop. You are sowing the dent-- bloc. wind-may God help America when it The PRESIDING OFFICER. The The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without comes time to reap the whirlwind. Senator from Utah. objection, the nominations in the Navy Mr. President, I am not a pacifist. I Mr. THOMAS of Utah. Before I pro­ are confirmed en bloc. would vote the last man and the last ceed, may I ask what is the intention Mr. BARKLEY. I ask that the Presi­ dollar if I thought that the vital interests of our leader with respect to taking a dent be immediately notified of all the of this Nation were at stake; and if I recess? nominations confirmed today. belonged to the war party I would be ·Mr. BARKLEY. Mr. President, I could The PRESIDING OFFICER. Without advocating all-out war. But because I hardly ask the Senator to proceed at this objection, it is so ordered. know from experience that war is the late hour. With the understanding that That completes the calendar. No.1 enemy of democracy I contend that he may take the floor the first thing RECESS it should be resorted to by a democratic tomorrow, I am willing, after a brief nation only when its vital interests are at executive session, to have the Senate take Mr. BARKLEY. As in legislative ses­ stake. a recess. sion, I move that the Senate take a recess I fear that not only will we be unable Mr. THOMAS of Utah. Very well. until 12 o'clock noon tomorrow. to achieve the objectives about which we The motion was agreed to; and the Senate fear that we ma;y lose them here at home. Mr. BARKLEY. I move that the Sen­ took a recess until tomorrow, Thursday, ­ In my opinion, one reason why we may ate proceed to the consideration of exec­ October 30, 1941, at 12 o'clock meridian. lose them here at home is the disillusion­ utive business. ment that will come over the people of The motion was agreed to; and the NOMINATIONS this country when they find that the Senate proceeded to the consideration of steps which they have been told were executive business. Executive nominations received by the short of war will lead them into war. Senate October 29 (legislative day of When they find that men in public life EXECUTIVE MESSAGES REFERRED October 27), 1941: who pledged to the people in no uncertain The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. Mc­ FARLAND in the chair) laid before the SOLICITOR GENERAL terms that they would not take this Charles Fahy, of New Mexico, to be Solicitor country into war or contribute to taking Senate messages from the President of General, vice Francis· Biddle, who has been it into war, get them into war, there will the United States submitting sundry appointed Attorney General. be a disillusionment of the first magni­ nominations, which were referred to the tude. appropriate committees. APPOINTMENTS IN THE REGULAR ARMY Second Lt. Richard Gates Davis, Ordnance IMPERIALISM MAY REPLACE "FOUR FREEDOMS"

. ' ABKANSAs ' · FLORIDA Scott H. Wheeler to . be_ post~aster at Char.i.es E. Lin"dsey ,. to be postmaster · at John H. Bci'Wm.an to be postmaster at' Coro­ Niantic, Ill. Ofl)c~ became Presi~ential J:\}ly Forester, Ark. Office becam-e Presidential nado Beach, Fla., in place of J. H. Bo-wman. 1, 1941. ,. . r..: • -~ti' July 1, 1941. Incumbent's commission expired February 18, . Estella Rhodes to be~. postmaste~ ..at ,O.ak­ 'Hazel P. Screeton ·to be postmaster at 1941. wood, Ill. Office l;>ecame Presidential J~ly 1, Hazen, Ark., · iii place of E. t... Waggoner, W11liam J. Christie to be postm~ter at 1941. . transferred. - - Dunedin, Fla., in place of B. R. Fulmer, re­ Emmert M. Reeser to be postmaster at signed.' Orangeville, Ill., in place of E: M. Reeser.. In­ Charles B. Casey to be postmaster at Jasper, cumbent's commission expired. July 26, 1941. Ark., in place of W. J. Pruitt. Incumbent's Mildred Byers to be postmaster at Orange Park; Fla.; in place of Lyman Byer.s, deceased. Henry .B. Reiss to be postmaster at St. commission expired June 3, 1940. Peter, Ill. Office .became Presidential July .1, Clifton H. King to be postmaster at Mabel­ GEORGIA 1941. . -·, - vale, Ark. Ofilce became Presidential July 1, Qertrude W. Stroupe . to be postmaster at Thomas E. Morrow to be postmast'er at 1941. . Aragon, Ga. Office became Presidential July Seneca, Ill., in place of T. E. Morrow. In­ Rudolph M. Biddy to be postmaster at 1, 1941. cumbent's commission expired August 5, Parkin, Ark., in place of L. M. Logan. In­ Jerry W. Duggan to be postmaster at Dud­ 1941. cumbent's commission expired June 18, 1941. ley, Ga. Office became Presidential July 1, Irene C. Cinnamon to be postmaster at Joe L. McClellan to be postmaster at Pine 1941. . ' Steger, ill., in place of I. C. Cinnamon. In­ Bluff, Ark., in place of J. L. McClellan. In­ William B. James to be postmaster at Elli­ cumbent's commission expired July 30, 1941. cumbent's commission expired June 18, ·1941. jay, Ga., in place of P. L. Watson, resigned. ·Kate M. Weis to be postmaster a:t Teu­ · Stephan i.f. Helin to be postmaster at _11;ank S. ~glish to be postmaster at Gor­ topolis, Ill., in place of K. M. Weis. Incum­ Scranton, Ark., in place of S. M. Helm. dc;lli, · ~a., in pi~ce of F. s. Epgllsh. Incum­ bent's commission expired July 28, 1941. Incumbent's commission expired August 2'3, bent's commission expired July 28, 1941. Vernon c. McGinnis to be postmaster ·at 1941. . . . Minnie M. Chambliss to be. postmaster at Warren, Ill.,' in place 'of G. K. Goldhagen-. In­ '·suciie E. Crain to be pcisttnaster at wnson, Hadaock, Ga. Office became Presidential cumbent's commission expired February 6, 1941. .; ... ' ' Ark, in place of I . C. Cra,.in1 resigned. Juiy 1, 1941. • .· Nell Braii$0n .to bf;l p_ostma~ter aji K.ings­ Charles· E. Reilly · to - be postmaster at CALIFORN~ ·o: ton, Ga. Office became Presidential July 1, W:innebago, Ill., in place of C. ~· .Reilly.· In­ Genevieve P. Dutra to be postmaster at 194l. . . cumbent's commission expired May 7, 1941. Alvarado, Calif., in place of G. P. Dutra. In­ Elliott Redding to be postmaste;r at . La~e · Lawton c. Spangler to 'be post'rmister at cumbent's commission expired June 23, 1941. Park, Ga. Oftice became Presidential July 1, Woodlawn, Ill., in place of L. C. Spangler. · Howard ·E. Frakes to be postmaster at 1941. - . Incumbent's commission expired July 28, Arcata, Calif., in place ef S. J. Titlow. IJ?.­ 1941. . Eli B. C9t~on to be .P

James H. Broyles to be postmaster at Kent­ cumbent's commission expired June 1, 1940. NORTH DAKOTA wood, La., i:r;l place of J. H. Broyles. Incum­ Michael Mayberry ·to be postmaster at Ruth c~ Borman to be ppstmaster at Alamo, bent's commission expired July 30, 1941. Sulli:van, Mo., in place of M. B. Lane, de­ N. Dak. Office became Presidential July 1, William S. Chandler to be postmaster at ceased. 1940. Norco, La., in place of Dennis·Gomez, Jr. -In­ MONTANA · Raymond L. Driessen to be postmaster at · cumbent's commission expired March 16, 1941. Grover C. Dowen to be postmaster at Chi­ Balfour, N. Dak., in place of R. E. Ulrich, James L. Derouen to be postmaster at nook, ·Mont., in· pl!ice· of· G. C. Dowen; In­ transferred. Welsh, La., in place of J. L. Derouen. In­ cumbent's· commission expired July 28, 1941. OHIO cumbent's commission expired July 30, 1941. Lee Jellison to· be postmaster at Hobson, Pollard Hugh Mercer to be post1.1aster at Oliver Perry McDaniel to be postmaster at Mont., in place of Lee Jellison. Incumbent's Carey, Ohio, in place of 0. P. McDaniel. In- · Winnfield, La., in place of P. H. Mercer. In­ commission expired July 30, 1941. . cumbent's commission expired July 2!3, 1941. cumbent's commission expired February 3, . Estelle K. Riley to be postmaster at Re­ 1941. serve, Mont. Office became Presidential July Clarence Hicks to be postmaster at Chesa­ Peter J. Smith to be postmaster at .Little­ 1, 1941. peake, Ohio, in place of Clarence Hicks. In­ ton, Mass., in place of M. E. Healy, removed. NEW JERSEY cumbent's commission expired July 29, 1941. - John W.hitman to be postmaster at Conti­ MICHIGAN Het:bert H. King to be postmaster at Flanders, N. J. Office became Presidential nental, Ohio, in place of John Whitman. Ralph H. Premo to be postmaster at Amasa, July 1, 1941. Incumbent's commission expired February . Mich., in place of R. H. Premo. Incumbent's 3, 1941. . ' commission expired July 30, 1941. NEW YORK Vern C .. Wallace to be. postmaster _at East Waldo Whitehead to ,be postmaster at At­ Mary T. Goehren to be }::>stmaster at Ards­ ¢anton, Ohio, in place of V. C. Wallace. In­ lanta, Mich., in place of Waldo Whitehead. ley', N.Y., in place of M. T. Goehren. Incum­ cumbent's commission expired July 28, 1941. · Incumb~nes commission expired July 30, bent's cO:m'mission expired· May 4, 1941. · · ~lice L . .Wyllner to be postmaster. at La-· 1941. ' John Rewey Ford to be postmaster at Berk­ grange, Ohio. Otnce became Presidential July r Orva W. Murphy to be postmaster at Au-. shire; N. Y., iii place of J. R. Ford. Incum­ 1, 1941. , burn, Mich., in place of J. A. Maxwell, trans­ bent's commission expired July 28, 1941. · Clayton · G. Roshon to be postmaster at ferred. Marjorie E. Dickinson to be postmaster at Reynoldsburg, Ohio, in place of C. G. Roshon. Joseph.Schneller to. be postmaster at Calu­ Bridgehampton, N. Y.,in place of M. E. Dick­ Incumbent"s commission expired February met, Mich., in place of Michael Leary, de-. inson. Incumbent's commission · exp1red ~8. 1941. . ceasjld. · June 2, 1941. · OKLAHOMA Audrey J. Fipey to be postmaster at Mich­ . · Geprge G .. 'I:aylor to _be postmaster at Ca-, igan Center: Mich., iri place of A. J. Filley.' naan, N.Y., in place of· G. G.-Taylor. Incum­ - John_C ..Atfholder to be postmastei:.at BlacJt-· rncumbent's commission expired July 28,' bent's commission expired June 2, 1941. well, Okla., .in pla()e of J. C. Atfholder. In­ 1941. - . ·James O'Doherty ·to· be postmaster at Cen­ cumbent's C9mm,ission expired _Juiy 28, l941.. William. J. Faircloth to be postmaster at _ Emma W. Cle.q1 to be postmaster at Colbert,­ tral Islip, N. Y., in place of James O'Doherty.­ Okla. Office became Presidential 'July·1, 1941. Onaway, Mich., in place of _W. J. F.aircloth. ~ncumbent's commission expired February 4, lncumbent's co!}lmission expired June 3',1940. 1941. . . · Ray' v·. Swiercinsky to be postmaster at' Vez:a P. Ramsey to be po.Stmaster at Pin:. Elgin, Okla., in place. of ·R. W. Swiercinsky.· · C. Leon Rye! to be postmaster at Copen­ Incumbent's commission . expired Jl(ly · 30, conning, Mich., in· place ·or v. P. Ramsey~ hagen, N. Y., in place of c. L. Ryel. Incum­ 1941. . Incumbent's commission ~ expired June 29, bent's commission expired February 9, 1941. 1941. : George ·A. Spies .to pe postmaster. at Hydro, Emily C. · Squires to be postmaster at Okla., in place of c. H. Hatfield; retired. · .--Homer Edwin Wassam to. be postmaster. at Hampt0n Bays, N. Y.,in piace of E. c. Squires; Temperance,. Mich., in place of H ..: ~ . .. Was­ Incumbent's commission expired June 15·, ' Arlie A:. Collins to be postmaster at Konrnva, sam. Incumbent's commission .e?Cp~re<;l. . F~b­ 1941. . 0kla., in place of A. A. Collins:" Incumbent's _commisslou expired July 3q, 1941. ruary 9, 1941. ' Joseph E. Downs to be postmaster at Islip, MINNESOTA N. Y.-, in place 'of J. E. Downs. Incumbent's OREGOl'{ . Alta. R. Dickson to be postmaster at Sig commission expired June 2, 1941: Dewey D. Horn to be postmaster at Bo­ Falls, Minn., in place ·or A. R . Dickson. ln­ . Timothy . E. Driscoll to be postmaster at nanza, Oreg., in place of D, D. Horn. Incum­ ·cumbent's commission expired· July 28, 1941. Kauneonga Lake, -N. Y., in place of T. E. bent'~ commission expired July 30, -1941. Jasper W. Thoma to be postmaster at Isle, Driscoll. Incumbent's commission expired ·Minn., in place of H. 0 . Haggberg. Incum­ June 2, 1941. - PENNSYLVANIA . bent's commission expired April 22, 1941. George W. Millicker to be postmaster at Richard Armstrong to be postmaster at Ira T. Strom to be postmaster at Lake Mahopac Falls, N. Y., in place of G. W. Mil· Allenwood, Pa., · in ·place of Richard Arm­ Lillian, Minn., in place of 1. T. Strom. In­ Iicker. Incumbent's commission expired strong. Incumbent's commission . expired .cumbellt's commission expired May 28, 1941. June 2, 1941. · July 28, 1941. George Neumann to be postmaster at Osseo, Sarah E. Austin to be postmaster at Patter­ Origen K. Bingham to be postmaster at Minn., in place of George Neumann. Incum­ son, N: Y., in place of S. E. Austin. Incum­ Bridgeville, Pa., in place of 0. K. Bingham~ bent's commission expired April 22, 1941. _bent's commission expired Mare,h 24, 1941 . Incumbent's commission expired June 2, 1941. Arthur E. Osberg to be postmaster at Up­ Rosemary Hearn to be pQStmaster at Port _ Fanny M. Daniel to be postmaster at Co~ sala, Minn., in place of · J. M. Nilson, re­ Byron, N. Y., in place of Rosemary Hearn. Ionia! Park, Pa. Office became Presidential ·moved. Incumbe'lt's commission expired July 28, July 1, 1941. Teresa C. Kline to be postmaster at Vesta, 1941. . Lillian M. Tierney to be postmaster · at . Minn. Office became Presidential July 1, · Edward D. Bradley to be postmaster · at Hallstead, Pa., in place of L. M. Tierney. 1941. 'Pottersvipe, N. Y., in place of E. D. Bradley. _Incumbent's commission expired July 28, MISSISSIPPI Incumbent's commission expired July 28, 1941. Golda H. Oaks to be postmaster at Burns­ 1941. Christina R. Hankin to be postmaster at ville, Miss. Office became Presidential July Thomas W. Smith to be postmaster at West North , Pa., in place of C. R. Hankin. ' t, 1941. ' . Winfield, N.Y., in place ofT. W. Smith. In­ Incumbent's commission expired June 2, Mattie B. ·Catching to be postmaster at cumbent's commission expired July 28, 1941. ' 1941. Georgetown, Miss., in place of M. B. Catch­ Frances H. Courtney to be postmaster at J. Alvin Byers to be postmaster at Perry­ ing. Incumbent's commission expired July Wilmington, N. Y. Office became Presiden- opolis, Pa., in place of J. A. Byers. Incum­ 27, 1941. tial July 1, 1941 _. · bent's commission expired ·February 18, 1941. Emma V. Zerbe to be postmaster ·at Valley Nadine L. Hall to be postmaster_at Hick­ NORTH CAROLINA ory Flat, Miss., in place of N. L. Hall. In­ View, Pa., in place of G. F. Zerbe, deceased. cumbent's commission expired April 21, W. Reid Howe to be postmaster at Cramer­ Thomas M. Hayden, Jr., to be postmaster 1941. _ton, N.C., in place of W. R. Howe. Incum· at West Sunbury, Pa. Office became Presi­ Velma L. carr to be postmaster at sum­ bent's commission expired July 28, 1941. dential July 1, 1941. ner, Miss., in place of L. B. Carr, deceased. Victor N. Fair to be postmaster at Lincoln­ RHODE ISLAND ton, N.C., in place of J. F. Seagle, deceased. MISSOURI Matthew A. Moran to be postmaster at Artus E. · Howell to be postmaster at Oak­ . Block Island, R. I., in place of Nicholas Ball, Charles 0. Pool to be postmaster at Bowl­ boro, N. C. Office became Presidential July deceased. ing Green, Mo., in_place of Carroll Wisdom, 1, 1941. Mary E. Feeley to be postmaster at Oakland resigned. Mae S. Ray to be postmaster at Whitakers, Beach, R.I., in place of M. E. Feeley. Incum­ Loiel Earl Barnett to be postmaster at N. C., in place of M. S. Ray. Incumbent's bent's commission expired March 16, 1941. Lancaster, Mo., in place of L. E. Barnett. commission expired July 28, 1941. Incumbent's commission ex_pired July 30. Mary P. Williams to be postmaster at SOUTH CAROLINA 1941. Whittier, N. C., in place of .M. P. Williams. Kittle A. Dunn to be postmaster at East• Thomas G. Douglass to be postmaster at · Incumbent's commission expired August 23, over, 8. C., in. place of K. A. Dunn. Incum• Senath, Mo., in place of H. S. Jones. In· 1941. . . . . bent's commission expired June ·2,· 1941. 8328 CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-SEN.t\.TE OCTOBER 30 Thomas B. Horton to be postmaster at APPOINTMENTS, BY TRANSFER, IN THE REGULAR 8.1718. An act to amend Public Law No. Heath Springs, S.C., in place ofT. B. Horton. ARMY 7l8, Seventy-fifth Congress, approved June I~cumbent's commission expired June 2, 1941. Second Lt. Earl Vincent Brown, to Quarter­ 25, 1938. Lucile P. Ginn to be postmaster at Varn­ master Corps. CALL OF THE ROLL vme, s. C., in place _of H. J. Peeples, retired. Second Lt. Edwin Porrest Harding, Jr., to Mr. AUSTIN. I suggest the absence TENNESSEE Infantry. of a quorum. William V. Cole to be postmaster at Baxter, First Lt. James Robert Wergin, to Air Corps. The VICE PRESIDENT. The clerk Tenn., in place of P. T. Young, transferred. Inez Smith to be postmaster at Bluff City, PROMOTIONS IN THE REGULAR ARMY OF THE will call the roll. Tenn., in place of Inez Smith. Incumbent's .UNITED STATES The Chief Clerk called the roll, and commission expired April 20, 1941. The nominations of Frank Martyn Paul the following Senators answered to their Frances P. Hudson to be postmaster at et al., Which appear in the CoNGRESSIONAL names: Germantown, Tenn., in place of F. P. Hudson. RECORD for October 27, 1941, under the cap­ Adams Ellender Nye Incumbf'nt's commission expired August 21, tion "Nominations," beginning on page 8262. Aiken George O'Daniel 1941. Andrews Gerry O'Mahoney PROMOTIONS IN THE NAVY Austin Gillette Overton - Fred G. Ezell to be postmaster at Town­ Bailey Glass Peace send, Tenn., in place of F. G. Ezell. Incum­ The nominations of Walter H. Albach et al., Ball Green Pepper bent's commission expired July 27, 1941. Which appear in the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD Bankhead Guffey Radcliffe for October 23, 1941, under the caption TEXAS Barbour Gurney Rosier "Nominations," beginning on page 8208. Barkley Hatch Russell Alvis L. Gilliam to be postmaster at Bell­ Bilbo Hill Schwartz mead, Tex. omce became Presidential ·July' POSTMASTER Bridges Holman Shipstead 1, 1941. Samuel John Hughes, Cashmere, Wash. .Brooks Johnson, Calif. Smathers Arnold S. Clewis to be postmaster at Grape­ Brown Johnson, Colo. Stewart Bunker Kilgore Taft land, Tex., in place ofT. S. Kent, Jr., removed. Burton La Follette Thomas, Idaho Robert B. Jackson to be postmaster at Hico, Butler Langer Thomas, Okla. Tex., in place of J. L. Holford. Incumbent's Byrd Lee Thomas, Utah commission expired June 17, 1940. SENATE Capper Lucas Tobey Leo C. Neutzler to be postmaster at Nord­ Caraway McCarran Truman heim, Tex., in place of L. C. Neutzler. Incum­ THURSDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1941 Chandler McFarland Tunnell bent's commission expired March 13, 1941. Chavez McKellar Vandenberg