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YOUR VOICE IN PARLIAMENT

THE FIRSTTHE SECOND MEETING MEETING OF THE OF THE FIFTH FIRST SESSION SESSION OF THEOF ELEVENTH THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAYWEDNESDAYTUESDAY 13 0726 NOVEMBER NOVEMBERFEBRUARY 2018 2020 2018

ENGLISH VERSION HANSARDHANSARD NO. 192196

DISCLAIMER Unofficial Hansard This transcript of Parliamentary proceedings is an unofficial version of the Hansard and may contain inaccuracies. It is hereby published for general purposes only. The final edited version of the Hansard will be published when available and can be obtained from the Assistant Clerk (Editorial). THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY SPEAKER The Hon. Phandu T. C. Skelemani PH, MP. DEPUTY SPEAKER The Hon. Mabuse M. Pule, MP. (Mochudi East)

Clerk of the National Assembly -- Ms B. N. Dithapo Deputy Clerk of the National Assembly -- Mr L. T. Gaolaolwe Learned Parliamentary Counsel -- Ms M. Mokgosi Assistant Clerk (E) -- Mr R. Josiah CABINET His Excellency Dr M. E. K. Masisi, MP. --President

His Honour S. Tsogwane, MP. (Boteti West) --Vice President -Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Hon. K. N. S. Morwaeng, MP. (Molepolole South) - Administration

Hon. K. T. Mmusi, MP. (Gabane-Mmankgodi) --Minister of Defence, Justice and Security Hon. Dr U. Dow, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of International Affairs and Cooperation Hon. E. M. Molale, MP. (Goodhope-Mabule ) --Minister of Local Government and Rural Development Hon. Dr E. G. Dikoloti MP. (Mmathethe-Molapowabojang) --Minister of Agricultural Development and Food Security -Minister of Environment, Natural Resources Conservation Hon. P. K. Kereng, MP. (Specially Elected) - and Tourism Hon. Dr L. Kwape, MP. (Kanye South) --Minister of Health and Wellness Hon. T.M. Segokgo, MP. (Tlokweng) --Minister of Transport and Communications Hon. K. Mzwinila, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Land Management, Water and Sanitation Services -Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. T. M. Rakgare, MP. (Mogoditshane) - Development

Hon. A. M. Mokgethi, MP. (Gaborone Bonnington North) --Minister of Nationality, Immigration and Gender Affairs Hon. Dr T. Matsheka, MP. (Lobatse) --Minister of Finance and Economic Development Hon. F. M. M. Molao, MP. (Shashe West) --Minister of Basic Education -Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Hon. Dr. D. Letsholathebe, MP. (Tati East) - Technology -Minister of Mineral Resources, Green Technology and Hon. L. M. Moagi, MP. (Ramotswa) - Energy Security

Hon. P. O. Serame, MP. (Specially Elected) --Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry -Minister of Employment, Labour Productivity and Skills Hon. M. Balopi, MP. (Gaborone North) - Development

Hon. M. Kgafela, MP. (Mochudi West) --Minister of Infrastructure and Housing Development

-Assistant Minister, Presidential Affairs, Governance and Hon. D. M. Mthimkhulu, MP. (Gaborone South) - Public Administration -Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. K. K. Autlwetse, MP. (Specially Elected) - Development -Assistant Minister, Local Government and Rural Hon. S. N. Modukanele, MP. (Lerala -Maunatlala) - Development -Assistant Minister, Agricultural Development and Food Hon. B. Manake, MP. (Specially Elected) - Security

Hon. S. Lelatisitswe, MP. (Boteti East) --Assistant Minister, Health and Wellness

Hon. N. W. T. Makwinja, MP. (Lentsweletau-Mmopane) --Assistant Minister, Basic Education

Hon. K. S. Gare, MP. (Moshupa-Manyana) --Assistant Minister, Investment, Trade and Industry -Assistant Minister, Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Hon. H. B. Billy, MP. (Francistown East) - Development Hon. M. R. Shamukuni, MP. (Chobe) --Assistant Minister,Tertiary Education, Research, Science and Technology MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT AND THEIR CONSTITUENCIES

Names Constituency

RULING PARTY (Botswana Democratic Party) Hon. L. Kablay, MP. (Government Whip) Letlhakeng-Lephephe Hon. M. R. Reatile, MP. Jwaneng-Mabutsane Hon. P. Majaga, MP. Nata-Gweta Hon. M. I. Moswaane, MP. Francistown West Hon. J. S. Brooks, MP. Kgalagadi South Hon. C. Greeff, MP. Gaborone Bonnington South Hon. T. Letsholo, MP. Kanye North Hon. T. F. Leuwe, MP. Takatokwane Hon. T. Mangwegape-Healy, MP. Gaborone Central Hon. S. N. Moabi, MP. Tati West Hon. M. S. Molebatsi, MP. Mmadinare Hon. T. Monnakgotla, MP. Kgalagadi North Hon. P. K. Motaosane, MP. Thamaga-Kumakwane Hon. O. Regoeng, MP. Molepolole North Hon. J. L. Thiite, MP. Ghanzi North OPPOSITION (Umbrella for Democratic Change) Hon. D. Saleshando, MP. (Leader of Opposition) Maun West Hon. P. P. P. Moatlhodi, MP. (Opposition Whip) Tonota Hon. D. L. Keorapetse, MP. Selebi Phikwe West Hon. Y. Boko, MP Mahalapye East Hon. Dr K. Gobotswang, MP. Sefhare-Ramokgonami Hon. K. C. Hikuama, MP. Ngami Hon. K. K. Kapinga, MP Okavango Hon. G. Kekgonegile, MP. Maun East Hon. A. Lesaso, MP. Shoshong Hon. T. B. Lucas, MP. Bobonong Hon. M. G. J. Motsamai, MP. Ghanzi South Hon. K. Nkawana, MP. Selebi Phikwe East Hon. O. Ramogapi, MP. Palapye Hon. Dr N. Tshabang, MP. Nkange Hon. D. Tshere, MP. Mahalapye West (Botswana Patriotic Front) Hon. T. S. Khama, MP. Serowe West Hon. L. Lesedi, MP. Serowe South Hon. B. Mathoothe, MP. Serowe North (Alliance for Progressives) Hon. W. B. Mmolotsi, MP. Francistown South TABLE OF CONTENTS THE SECOND MEETING OF THE FIRST SESSION OF THE TWELFTH PARLIAMENT WEDNESDAY 26 FEBRUARY, 2020

CONTENTS PAGE (S)

SPEAKER’S ANNOUNCEMENT...... 1

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER...... 1-8

BUSINESS MOTION...... 6

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY Appropriation (2020/2021) Bill, 2020 (No. 2 of 2020) Organisation 0200 - Ministry for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration Resumed Debate...... 6-17

Organisation 0300- Ministry of Finance and Economic Development...... 18-36 Wednesday 26th February, 2020 QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER

Wednesday 26th February, 2020 (iii) what he is doing about the situation as road transport is currently the major way the country THE ASSEMBLY met at 2:00 p.m. can grow tourism, farming, and entrepreneurships (THE SPEAKER in the Chair) therefore creating jobs for Batswana.

P R A Y E R S Later Date.

* * * * AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT INVESTIGATORS SPEAKER’S ANNOUNCEMENT MR M. I. MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): asked the Minister of Transport and Communications to MR SPEAKER (MR SKELEMANI): Order! Order! state: Honourable Members, good afternoon. Let us start our business of today with questions. In respect of the (i) how many Aircraft Accident Investigators are questions which ought to be answered by the Minister employed in his ministry and under which of Transport and Communications, I have received department; communication that the Honourable Minister is not available today, which means that those questions will (ii) their qualifications and how they qualified for such be later dated. positions; QUESTIONS FOR ORAL ANSWER (iii) the number of Aircraft Accident Investigators STATUS OF PLANNED LENTSWELETAU- registered and recognised by the Civil Aviation MOLEPOLOLE ROAD Authority of Botswana (CAAB); and MR P. K. MOTAOSANE (THAMAGA- (iv) what the ministry is doing to try and entice more KUMAKWANE): asked the Minister of Transport young people into this scarce field. and Communications if he is aware that Lentsweletau- Molepolole road through Mahetlwe was once planned Later Date. for; if so, to update this Honourable House on the current status of this road or any alternative plans to ensure that AIR BOTSWANA’S INCREASED LOSSES AND people are able to access services in Lentsweletau which EMPLOYEES’ BENEFITS services eight more villages. MR T. S. KHAMA (SEROWE WEST): asked the Later Date. Minister of Transport and Communications to update this Honourable House on the period of Air Botswana MOCHUDI EAST CONSTITUENCY ROADS turbulence and increased losses; whether there have been any salary increases for the General Manager MR M. M. PULE (MOCHUDI EAST): asked the (GM) and members of the Executive Committee (Exco) Minister of Transport and Communications if he is and if so, to state: aware: (i) that roads connecting villages especially in the (i) by how much, and what other benefits they have Mochudi East Constituency are in a very bad enjoyed; state and barely get attention in terms of grading (ii) what post the GM is pegged at and the salary; especially Mochudi-Malolwane to Phala Kamp roads, Modipane-Mabalane, Mokatse-Radikolo, (iii) how many Directors there are at Air Botswana to Dikwididi to Sedibelo and Bokaa to Kopong roads; oversee the operation of the three aircrafts; and how many people are employed for their operation; (ii) that Modipane-Mabalane Road has been in the National Development Plan (NDP) for decades; if (iv) the monthly remuneration package for all Air so, to consider including it as a matter of urgency Botswana Directors; and in the planning period 2020/21 and not 21/22 (v) if he will confirm the announcement made by Air as was announced by the previous Minister in a Botswana on job cuts for 200 staff members and if Kgotla meeting at the main Mochudi Kgotla on 10 presumably there will be similar cuts for the Exco October 2019; and to further state; Directors so as to set an example.

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Later Date. (a) of the Constitution that deals with the Directorate of Public Prosecutions, Section 91 of the Ombudsman REMOVAL OF OVERSIGHT INSTITUTIONS Act that deals with the independence of the Office of FROM OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT the Ombudsman. Section 4 of the Financial Intelligence MR Y. BOKO (MAHALAPYE EAST): asked the Act which also deals with the independence of FIA and Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Section 4 (3) of the Corruption Act which also deals Public Administration when oversight institutions will with the independence of the DCEC. be removed from Office of the President such as: In terms of the statutes that establish these organisations, (i) Directorate of Corruption and Economic Crime they are independent from any interference from the (DCEC); Executive. You must understand that if you want them to be constitutionally entrenched, that is a specifically (ii) Ombudsman; different reasoning altogether. However, they are (iii) Directorate of Public Prosecutions (DPP); independent in terms of their establishing statutes. It Financial Intelligence Agency (FIA); and cannot be questioned. Directorate of Intelligence Services (DIS) to give MR SALESHANDO: Further supplementary. Thank them independence for enhancement of democracy and their institutional effectiveness. you Mr Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister to state if they have been able at any point, to do an assessment ASSISTANT MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL of what is internationally regarded as best practice in AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC enhancing the independence of oversight institutions? ADMINISTRATION (MR MTHIMKHULU): Thank Secondly, since we are heading towards a constitutional you Mr Speaker. The Directorate of Public Prosecutions review, are there any plans within the Ministry for (DPP) and Financial Intelligence Agency (FIA) do not Presidential Affairs to look into what ought to be done to fall under the Office of the President (OP). They fall further enhance the independence of these institutions? under the Ministries of Defence, Justice and Security and Finance and Economic Development respectively. MR MTHIMKHULU: Here in Botswana we have a The placing of these institutions under ministries is done Constitution that governs or that gives the framework for administrative and budgetary purposes. For that within which the Government should operate; all reason, Government currently has no plan to relocate the three arms of Government and spells up the oversight institutions from ministries. responsibility of each and every arm of the Government. These independent institutions do not form part of Having said so, I wish to confirm the independence any independent arm of the Government. Under the of the Directorate of Corruption and Economic Crime framework of our Constitution, they fall under the (DCEC), Ombudsman, DPP, DIS and FIA in carrying Executive. We have done the best we could under the out their mandate. Such independence is confirmed by circumstances as provided under the Constitution to the respective statutes that establish them. Thank you make them independent. The status quo right now is Mr Speaker. what works best for our country and under our laws, especially our founding laws; the Constitution. MR MMOLOTSI: Supplementary. Minister, since you realise that it is a source of pain on Batswana for Secondly, if you want their independence to be these institutions to be under the Office of the President, constitutionally entrenched, that is what I said it is a eventhough you believe that they are independent whilst different subject from what you are talking about now. the public does not see them that way, do you not think We have already said that there will be a Constitutional it would be good for the country if these institutions are Referendum. At that point when it comes, you will removed from the Office of President, so that atleast make your own submissions that they should be Batswana can consider them as independent? constitutionally entrenched. That is a different subject altogether. Thank you Mr Speaker… MR MTHIMKHULU: Like I said, it is a misconception. It is based on a very wrong understanding of the statutes MR RAMOGAPI: Supplementary. Thank you that establish these institutions. If you may Mr Speaker, Honourable Speaker. Minister are you saying you do not I may direct the Honourable Member to Section 56 (1) know that the Directorate on Corruption and Economic

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Crime (DCEC) Director General is appointed by the controlled from the Office of the President? They are President, and that he or she reports to the Office of not. Are they controlled from Cabinet? They are not. Are President, either to the President or Vice President? Do they controlled from the Executive? They are not. You you want to tell us that he or she is independent? Hey! act on your own, you act according to the wisdom that Be serious and answer, do not torture the truth, we need informs you. the truth. DR GOBOTSWANG: Supplementary. Mr Minister, MR MTHIMKHULU: That is why I said your are you saying the DCEC is part of the Executive? understanding is flawed and your argument is from If it is part of the Executive, can you say that it is a very misconceived premise. Like I said, we operate independent from it? You should remember that we once under the auspices of the Constitution of the Republic of had a situation where DCEC investigated some senior Botswana and that Constitution only gives three Arms officers, and the investigating officer from DCEC who of the Government. The institution that you are talking was carrying out the investigations was transferred. Can about, currently falls under the Executive Arm of the DCEC be independent if the appointment is done by Government, they are not constitutionally entrenched. the Executive, right at the centre of where corruption Until such time that the Constitution is amended to takes place and also being the ones who transfer? Hey! allow them to become independent, then you can talk Minister, be serious. Do you want to tell me that if you like you are talking. have a snake in your pocket and it belongs to you, you can say it is independent? Thank you. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… MR MTHIMKHULU: Thank you Mr Speaker. Even MR MTHIMKHULU: Sorry! I beg to correct that my for those positions that are constitutionally entrenched, Lord. Before it allows them to become constitutionally somehow somewhere, a decision has to be taken by entrenched, that is when you can talk like you are talking. some authority and normally the authority lies with the As of now, the Act that establishes these institutions Executive, who is the President. He has to sign off on any makes them independent, at least in their decision appointment. What I want to tell you is that, as far as we making with regards to the day-to-day operations of are concerned, they are independent, as far as their daily those particular institutions. They are independent as functions are concerned, and that cannot be questioned. far as we are concerned, because there is the framework Members of the Executive have been investigated within which they fall. In our Constitution, there is the before by the DCEC, why did you not say that it did Executive Arm of the Government, which is headed by not have the power or the authority or the independence the President, Parliament can detract or subtract from to investigate those particular suspects who have been that by making sure that functions that can ordinarily be brought before the courts of law? The fact that they performed by the Executive can be performed by any have investigated them before demonstrates their organisation under an Act of Parliament, and that is what independence and lack of interference by the Executive we did. That is perfectly normal under our dispensation. from their daily operations. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR KHAMA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr Speaker. MR HIKUAMA: Supplementary. Thank you Mr I hear words coming from the Minister, however I just Speaker. Thank you Minister for your clarification on want to say that, as I took an oath in Cabinet I am still how our Acts and Constitution function. I would like to bound by that oath, but what he is saying about the ask you whether, as the custodian of this ministry and independence, I think it would be fair to the House if institutions you are satisfied with their independence? he would detail clearly how far that independence goes. MR MTHIMKHULU: The Acts themselves spell it What he is trying to portray as being totally independent out that they are independent. I am very happy with the is not the case and he is misleading the House. I am guidelines Parliament provided for the independence constrained by the oath I took and I would be quite of those institutions. We also believe as the Executive, happy if that oath, I was to be exonerated from keeping that at least they are, as far as their daily operations are it, by telling him exactly how those people are not concerned, they are independent, they are not answerable independent. He should stop misleading the House and to us. Members of Parliament you are here, you cannot Honourable Molale knows, because we were in Cabinet say that you are not independent. Are all your views at the same time when such an event happened…

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MR SPEAKER: Order! Honourable Khama, what is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Tell them. the question? MR SPEAKER: I took the oath and to me that also has HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… a meaning. It should never be assumed by anybody that I can be told what to do. If you do that, I will ignore. MR KHAMA: …and the Leader of the House was also there, so if they want to speak up to the point, they must HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… say so. Thank you. MR SPEAKER: As far as your views Honourable MR SPEAKER: Honourable Khama, what is the Mmolotsi and the views of the Leader of the House are supplementary question? I hear you arguing against concerned, they do not affect me. My oath is my bond what the Minister said, but what is exactly the question? and I am not …(Inaudible)… by anybody.

MR KHAMA: Mr Speaker, I advised that I am LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): constrained by the oath I took in Cabinet, but my issue On a point of procedure. I thought that when people is that, what he is saying is misleading. Whether that stay here for many years as Members of Parliament, comes as a question or not, I am advising that what he is they would have learned something. I am surprised if saying is not true and I think the House needs to know Honourable Mmolotsi does not know that I am a Member the facts. Thank you. of Parliament, I have the right to raise on any point, LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): notwithstanding that I am the Leader of the House. I am Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I think you were right the Member of Parliament for Boteti West and I have when you kept on asking, what is the question, but won that constituency. So, you better be aware of that. you should go further than just interrogating on what the question is. You should actually stop the Members HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… if they take advantage of the supplementaries and start making statements. You must make sure that you stop HONOURABLE MEMBER: Further procedure Mr them before they even finish. I thank youMr Speaker. Speaker.

MR MMOLOTSI: Point of procedure. Mr Speaker, I MR SPEAKER: No, let us end this thing. I think all think I am now compelled to stand up and reprimand the Members of this House have got the right to stand, even Leader of the House, because yesterday he kept doing if in my view they are wrong, I cannot anticipate them. the same thing, where he wanted you to act the way They have the right to stand on issues they think should he wants. I think what the Leader of the House should be raised. I have the final say. understand is that, he is not the Speaker of the House, he is the Leader of Government business and he should UNOCCUPIED CENTRE FOR PEOPLE LIVING not instruct the Speaker on what to do in this House. WITH DISABILITIES IN FRANCISTOWN This is why we talk about independence of Parliament, he is reiterating exactly what he did yesterday and it is MR M. I. MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): unacceptable, Leader of the House should never do it asked the Minister of Local Government and Rural again. Development to state: HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of order. (i) why the centre for people living with disabilities MR SPEAKER: Leader of the House, can you give me building behind Francistown College of Technical a chance, I am running this House… and Vocational Training still remains unoccupied to date; HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… (ii) how long the building has stayed unoccupied; MR SPEAKER: You have noticed yesterday that I continued as I deemed fit to give the floor to Honourable (iii) how much was spent on its construction; and Kapinga or whoever was on the floor, maybe it was Honourable Moatlhodi, to continue, because I have (iv) what the City of Francistown intends to do with absolutely no intention of being told anything by the building as it has stayed for too long without anybody. a tenant.

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MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND Therefore, it will also cover your first supplementary RURAL DEVELOPMENT (MR MOLALE): Thank that once we have determined what actually went wrong you Mr Speaker. and find out who did the wrong, then the due process will be followed. It is something that I will be stating (i) Mr Speaker, the centre for people living with in my Committee of Supply on some of these issues, disabilities behind Francistown College of where funding is taken and infrastructure that has been Technical and Vocational Training still remains completed and left unutilised over extended period of unoccupied due to an omission made in providing time. It is something that I will be working on. I thank certain critical items. These are kitchen appliances you Mr Speaker. and equipment, furniture, other electrical works, manpower and recurrent costs. MR MOSWAANE: Further supplementary. Minister, are you aware that these are not the only buildings that nd (ii) The construction of the facility started on the 2 the Government constructed in Francistown, there is October 2008 and remained unoccupied since also the Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food its completion on June 2011. It has remained Security building which was long constructed but it is unoccupied for nine years. not occupied whereas it costed millions? Are you also (iii) The total amount spent on the construction of the aware that this is not the first time I asked this question facility was P14, 427, 500. in Parliament? The time when I enquired about it, why was it so difficult to carryout investigations? Thank you. (iv) In June 2016, the Ministry of Health and Wellness expressed the interest to utilise the facility as a MR MOLALE: Mr Speaker, I would not know about regional rehabilitation centre. the Ministry of Agricultural Development and Food Security. I am not aware that you once asked a question (v) The negotiations on the same with the council about it. I want you to take it from me Honourable were concluded in 2017 December, and the Member, that I have instituted a team after I spoke to Memorandum of Lease of Agreement with the you. Therefore, let the due process be taken and if the ministry for 25 years was signed effective April Assurance Committee was working, we would then be 2019 to April 2044. The facility is currently undergoing refurbishment and remedial work is giving progress at that committee. being undertaken, which commenced in October MR MMOLOTSI: Further supplementary. Minister, 2019 and it is anticipated to be completed by end of are you amenable to the committee you appointed to June 2020. Its operation is expected by September go and work in Francistown so that they do not only 2020. I thank you Mr Speaker. focus on the building that Honourable Moswaane is MR MOSWAANE: Supplementary. Minister, since talking about? They should focus on other buildings of you confirm that ever since the completion of this Local Government which even now remain unoccupied. building, there is no one who can be accused of not Not only in Francistown, there are many others, even being accountable for this eight-year period where in Gaborone there are some buildings which have long Government lost P14 million, is this allowed in the been constructed, such as houses in Block 6 which have Government? As the ministry, do you not have any not been occupied for more than five years. Are you monitoring mechanism to find out how much was used amenable to your committee working country wide? We to construct and whether the building is used within the believe there is a lot of waste in your buildings. set period? This is because a lot of funds have been used to construct these buildings which could have MR MOLALE: Mr Speaker, I said, I have confined been diverted to other projects but they have been white myself to what has been asked by Honourable Moswaane elephants for an extended period of time. Thank you. and that is what I am going to do. I have also said that as a way of stemming the tide against what is being alleged MR MOLALE: Thank you Mr Speaker. The last by Honourable Mmolotsi, we are going to do something question of the supplementary is that; yes, we agree with which I shall state in my Committee of Supply speech. you, this is a high opportunity cost. As I did discussed Can you exercise patience? with you Honourable Member and asked you the question behind, I did constitute a team that went to investigate. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)…

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DR GOBOTSWANG: Supplementary. Minister, this BUSINESS MOTION is not only the Institute of Health Sciences (IHS) in Block 6, in Francistown and the Sir Ketumile Masire at GOVERNMENT WHIP (MR KABLAY): Good University of Botswana (UB), where you build facilities afternoon Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, I beg to move in and they remain for ten or more years without being terms of Standing Order 5.2 (c) that Honourable Pono occupied. Do you not think the Botswana Democratic Pearson Moatlhodi, Member of Parliament for Tonota, Party (BDP) Government is dysfunctional? do preside over this Assembly as Acting Deputy Speaker from the 27th to the 28th February 2020. Mr Speaker, this MR MOLALE: Even though you are talking about is due to the absence of the substantive Speaker who infrastructure outside the purview of my ministry, I would be away due to a family bereavement, resulting will answer you, more especially the latter part of your the Deputy Speaker taking the Chair as the Acting question. This BDP Government is fully functional, that Speaker of the National Assembly. I move accordingly is why Batswana returned it to power and that is why Mr Speaker. you lost and even tried to do a coup d’état through the legal process and still failed. Your attempts are being Question put and agreed to. made futile at every term, so just relax. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)... ASSEMBLY IN COMMITTEE HONOURABLE MEMBER: Point of elucidation. (CHAIRPERSON in the Chair) HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)... APPROPRIATION (2020/2021) BILL, MR SPEAKER: …Order! Order! Honourable Members. I understand that Honourable Greeff, who 2020 (NO. 2 OF 2020) was not there at the beginning has now turned up. HEAD 0200 - PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, UPDATE ON THE CURRENT STATE OF GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC GABORONE WEST YOUTH CENTRE ADMINISTRATION

MR C. GREEFF (GABORONE BONNINGTON (Resumed Debate) SOUTH): asked the Minister of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Development to update this MR CHAIRPERSON (MR SKELEMANI): Honourable House on the current state of the Gaborone Honourable Members, the debate on this organisation West Youth Centre (Mma Masire). is resuming. You will take note that the Minister will reply to the debate at 1525 hours today and the question ASSISTANT MINISTER OF YOUTH will be put at 1555 hours. When the House adjourned EMPOWERMENT, SPORT AND CULTURE DEVELOPMENT (MR BILLY): Thank you Mr yesterday, Honourable Balopi was on the floor and was Speaker. Let me take this opportunity to thank the left with three minutes 57 seconds. Honourable Member for allowing me to accompany him HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is absent. to Lady Olebile Masire Centre which is under Botswana National Youth Council (BNYC). The centre has been MR CHAIRPERSON: The floor is open. handed over to a Non-Governmental Organisation called Young African Botswana which is in partnership with MR PULE (MOCHUDI EAST): Thank you Mr Ministry of Youth Empowerment, Sport and Culture Chairperson. Good afternoon Mr Chairperson, I wish Development (MYSC). Their mandate is to try and you the best and a very healthy day with your team. I develop skills for those who volunteer in programmes am standing here to commend the Honourable Minister such as Tirelo Sechaba and Youth Development Fund Kabo Neal Sechele Morwaeng for the work he has done. (YDF); the beneficiaries are given training on how to I read his presentation, it is straight forward and has improve their businesses. Still on that note, I can explain derived the main points from the Budget Speech, there that improvements were made or certain houses which is no contradiction anywhere. I do not expect anyone in were not in a good condition were painted. Mr Speaker, this House, since we have debated the budget, to stand up the Young African Botswana and the MYSC continue to and oppose Honourable Kabo Morwaeng on his budget assist Gaborone West Constituency. Thank you. proposal because we have realised that he did a brilliant

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job. What we can do as Members of this Honourable services to hard to reach places because those people House is that, the likes of Honourable Kekgonegile and need to be motivated and be happy where they are. They Honourable Kapinga should request for the budget to be should also be in the same condition as those that are increased because there are a lot of things that he has in towns. Honourable Members, let us rise and help to do. Mr Chairperson, there is a Bill which was tabled Honourable Morwaeng to reach that goal. in this House recently on Declaration of Assets and Liabilities which we sat down and assessed whether it These Public Sector Reforms are some of the backbones will take us anywhere. We discovered that many people needed to drive the National Transformational Strategy who are affected by this Bill do not understand it. Some which is within our transformational agenda. For of us as Members of Parliament did not understand the this country to go forward, develop and have quality direction that the Bill was taking because we realised services, people must change the way they do things. that it has some limitations. Some Members felt that it This will then require funds to hire experts or use the public servants in offices to go out there to assist people. was crafted in a hurry hence the loopholes. When we parted last time, we unanimously agreed that the time Honourable Members, this is our country. We have been that we should have brought our submissions should elected by people to come and represent them. We are be extended by six months. We then agreed that, there not supposed to come to this House and pretend as if this is new to us. I extend my invitation to our colleagues on must be a very intensive publication of this Bill so that the other side to not always rebut but sometimes when even those who are outside Parliament, can know that they oppose, they should do so do with wisdom not it does not only affect Members of Parliament but them condescendingly. When you oppose, it should be with as well. We know that as he will be carrying out that the intent to change the situation going forward. Now exercise, he is going to need a lot funds for travelling if you oppose and just conclude that it is corruption and around maybe to hold Kgotla meetings, workshops and all the things that you have been saying, it does not add value. Let us unite Honourable Members and work for do other assignments. Mr Chairperson, another issue our country. which I want to comment on is Public Sector Reforms. I welcome the initiative of Public Sector Reforms. Mr Minister, may I request that your ministry should make Chairperson, I am only concerned that when it comes it a habit to travel to villages and hold Kgotla meetings to this issue, Honourable Morwaeng’s ministry has a lot and address Batswana on different issues indicative to do. For us to realise our goal of improving service of the transformation we want to see. We will not see the developments we want if we just stay in Gaborone. delivery in serving the nation well, we have to travel Economy is developed by its own people. It will be better the whole country. Most of the time when our reforms if we start changing people’s mindset on how they do are formulated, it seems they are exposed to towns like things and teach them that public service and customer Gaborone only. We do not hold workshops in far places care attracts tourists. They would be assured that in with hard to reach people. We have to go to them and Botswana starting from the border into the country, you teach them how the nation ought to be assisted. are given proper customer care and when you are there, If you go to remote areas like Ramotlabaki and Oliphant’s you will be assisted properly. They will come in large Drift, you will encounter a sad situation when it comes numbers and our economy will grow. to public service. Mr Chairperson, another issue I want to address quickly HONOURABLE MEMBER: Oliphant! is of infrastructure optimisation. Honourable Members, you are aware that for a long time I have been talking MR PULE: Yes, at Oliphant’s Drift. It is a sad situation. about this. I take it as a foundation of economy. You will find that the poor public servant has no idea on No country has achieved what it wanted without infrastructure. Infrastructure does not merely refer to what to do and sometimes does not even know you as a roads only, we are talking about network, electricity and Member of Parliament and therefore does not know how Wi-Fi. I was in Oliphant’s Drift in my constituency and to receive you and so on. Some end up having lost all they told me that they are suffering because they want to hope that they even go to offices wearing jeans and you enroll for part time courses but their computers do not can see that they have no idea what they are supposed have network. Honourable Morwaeng, I believe that if to do. Mr Chairperson, I was therefore pleading with we take these services to rural areas, our country will Honourable Minister Morwaeng to try and extend his move forward.

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My constituency of Mochudi East is near Gaborone National Transformation Strategy which is a blue print and if you can work hard to revamp roads and make for the development agenda for this country, and to sure water is available and all the other necessities are remind Honourable Members that it seeks to catapult provided, in two years, my constituency from Mabalane this country from an upper middle income to a high up to Phala Camp, will be supplying Gaborone with income country by 2036. For those who always argue or fruits, vegetables, goats and meat. accuse us of not stating our targets, that is a target.

Another thing which caught my attention is that the Mr Chairperson, notable in his speech, the Honourable Minister said Kgatleng is part of the beef clusters. I am Minister talked about, e-service and digitisation. In so happy about that and I feel compelled to comment particular, he indicated that this must be home grown on it. I had thought I will conclude. Including Mochudi solutions that will deliver services for Batswana by East in cluster beef is a highly welcome development. Batswana. I want to add that when we transform our I want to promise you personally that I will address public sector, we must emphasise not only on service farmers in my constituency to extend their farms two delivery but service delivery with a human face. We must put ourselves in the position of the people that we times and raise cattle, goats and so on so that we can serve. I believe that change in mind-set will help us to supply Gaborone market. If possible, then eventually we transform the way we deliver the services to our very will help our country and export meat outside Botswana. own countrymen. If we do that, we are going to be rich in that area, we will have money, everything will be fine, our homes May I also highlight what the Honourable Minister will improve and we will have malls with Nandos and talked to, on the National Monitoring and Evaluation other shops in our area. As I speak, we do not have these System (NMESN), which will play a guiding role in things. We will be very rich and our businessmen will terms of developing our Human Resource (HR) capacity endeavour to make a difference. as well as change management including data as well. Mr Chairperson, I do not have much to say. I just wanted Mr Chairperson, Minister Honourable Morwaeng to support Honourable Morwaeng’s request. Thank you also talked about his commitment to engagement Mr Chairperson. and consultation with unions especially with regard MINISTER OF HEALTH AND WELLNESS (DR to the recommendations made by the Performance KWAPE): Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, Management and Delivery Unit (PEMANDU), that is in all my deliberations in this House, I have always made commendable. I believe that the Honourable Minister my comments in vernacular, but today I will make my should be given all the resources that he needs to deliver submission in the queen’s language. on that promise. I want from the outset congratulate my colleague HIV/AIDS and health promotions; again Mr the Honourable Minister for Presidential Affairs, Chairperson, I want to emphasise that clearly in his Governance and Public Administration Honourable speech, he indicated where we are and where we want Morwaeng for a well presented Committee of Supply Speech. It was disruptive, transformational, and to be and for the doubting Thomases, those are called aligned to Vision 2036 as well as State of the Nation targets. 91 per cent of the people who are HIV positive Address (SONA) that was delivered by His Excellency. have been tested. 92 are on treatment. 96 Honourable Furthermore, it was aligned to our budget delivered by Gobotswang, are virally suppressed. our very own Dr Matsheka. It was also anchored on our I also want to note what the Honourable Minister talked belief of transforming this country to a knowledge based to, especially on a subject that is very close to my heart, economy. Furthermore, it is aligned to the manifesto the subject of Non-Communicable Diseases (NCDs). of the mighty Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) and These diseases are the number one causes of mortality rightfully so. and morbidity worldwide and raising awareness on Mr Chairperson, may I take this opportunity also to them is of paramount importance. What is even more highlight some of the key things the Honourable Minister important is the Honourable Minister’s commitment to highlighted in his Committee of Supply Speech. In partnership with development partners, civil society and particular, I want to talk to Public Sector Reforms. A the private sector.

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Corruption prevention; I want to commend the MR CHAIRPERSON: … (Inaudible)… Honourable Minister for his commitment to the promotion of transparency, accountability and good DR KWAPE: No but I am through. governance. I think his request for funding should ASSISTANT MINISTER OF TERTIARY be acceded to. The Honourable Member also clearly EDUCATION, RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND highlighted that the Declaration of Assets and Liabilities TECHNOLOGY (MR SHAMUKUNI): Thank you will be effected. For those who are not in the know, the Mr Chairperson. I support the budget proposal that was Honourable Minister... presented by the Minister, so that he can carry out the HONOURABLE MEMBER: What are you thankful programmes in his Ministry. Honourable Members have for? spoken a lot about the departments that are under the Office of the President, that they should be independent. DR KWAPE: Yes, let me be thankful if that is what I Honourable Assistant Minister has already explained am supposed to do. The things I am thankful for, are that these departments are independent. There is some those that when they come to my constituency, my degree of independence Mr Chairperson, because as we constituents are filled with smiles. I do not know that have shown, they have operational independence. There if we have been told to reduce corruption, we make is no one who gives them directives of how they should Honourable Gobotswang and Honourable Keorapetse annoyed. operate.

Mr Chairperson, the other thing that I want to talk... We know that the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) runs our elections without any interference from HONOURABLE MEMBER: They are... (Inaudible)… anyone. There is no one who directs on what they should do. It is a duty they perform as a department. We know DR KWAPE: No, you say opportunistic. On broadcasting that even the Directorate on Corruption and Economic services Mr Chairperson, I want to commend the Crime (DCEC), no one controls them on who they should Honourable Minister for his commitment to delivering the transition from analogue to digital. I request that this prosecute. It is a duty they perform independently. We House approve this budget that he may deliver on that. should commend Honourable Minister and encourage This talks to the transformation strategy on leveraging him to continue with that tradition of non-interference Information and Communication Technology (ICT) to with their operations. That is how we support our deliver the knowledge-based economy. Again, I must democracy. Those who have a problem, will have to emphasise here, that it is also very well-articulated in the wait for a comprehensive Constitutional review that we mighty Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) Manifesto. promised as the BDP (Botswana Democratic Party).

Thank you very much Mr Chairperson for allowing me HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… to commend the Honourable Minister for his boldness in terms of approaching his delivery of his speech. May MR SHAMUKUNI: We are going to make sure that I request that when the Honourable Minister retreats his that Constitutional review is available. Let me request office, he must ponder over the idea of opening up the air you Members on the other side of the isle who are space. I am here in particular talking about community- making noise that, when we get into the issue of the based radio stations. We are itching especially in my Constitution, you should not cross borders to go and constituency to share with you, our dialect called get directives outside Botswana on how we should Mothoko. We are also itching to teach the wider nation about the dialect that we speak of Sengwaketse. I am shape our Constitution. Let it be our discussion in really telling you. Botswana, do you hear me Honourable Keorapetse? It should be our Constitution as Batswana, you should Mr Chairperson, on poverty eradication; I want to stop crossing borders to go and get directives to come commend the Honourable Minister for his commitment and influence our politics. We should mould our country to eradicate poverty and pledge our full support in that and look into things which can make developments regard. through Constitutional Review. That is why I am saying, The other issue of paramount importance and which we are going to have to wait for a time where we will strikes a nerve with me is the issue of people living with have unrestricted consultations as Batswana, without disability. I know this because it has hit close to home. I any disturbances, without involving political issues. have a brother... Emotions…

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. for two years for their remunerations because we can see that this thing promotes peace between public servants MR SHAMUKUNI: What are you clarifying? and the government. The important thing is that, this MR KEORAPETSE: Clarification Mr Chairperson. existing cooperation and peace improves results, we can Honourable Members, I want to confirm that in expect it because the focus will not be on negotiations, the focus will be on distributing services to Batswana so 1999 when there was a Constitutional referendum in as to improve their lives. Zimbabwe, the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) greatly campaigned that the Constitution that Performance Management and Delivery Unit was presented before Zimbabweans should be rejected. (PEMANDU), as we adopted its report Minister, Let So, if the Constitution is going to be drafted in a way us try by all means to speed up its implementation so that will fool Batswana into believing that it has been that public servants can embrace their rights at the right amended, while in actual fact it does not contain any time. rights and there is no improved democracy then, we Minister, you talked about poverty eradication, we have are going to campaign that Batswana should reject that long launched this programme in 2011, I believe that Constitution… there has been progress, in terms of reduction of abject poverty. It is noticeable, some statistics show that there HONOURABLE MEMBER: You rigged elections. has been reduction. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: A reduction of how MR KEORAPETSE: …especially that you do not have much? majority in terms of popular vote, we will campaign day MR SHAMUKUNI: 3 per cent reduction for last year. and night that Batswana should reject that constitution.

HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)...

MR SHAMUKUNI: Honourable Keorapetse, you MR SHAMUKUNI: We are looking at the trends, the know that you are not telling the truth when you say that trend should show that there has been a reduction and we we do not have popular majority, we have formed this have to appreciate that, but we know Mr Chairperson, government as we are here. You even lost at court, wait that eradicating poverty is not an easy task. Even if we for the P10 million bill and start making donations, it can go to developed countries, you will still find very is said that you are the one who is moving the donation poor people there. We have to applaud the Minister for form around. this poverty eradication programme for it is showing results. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… DR GOBOTSWANG: Clarification. Minister, maybe MR SHAMUKUNI: Minister, Directorate of Public you should align us to the topic, what are you talking Service Management (DPSM) and Public Service about? Poverty eradication or poverty reduction? Are Management; I would like to take this time to applaud you you trying to reduce poverty or to eradicate it? It is just Minister, and also encourage you to continue promoting poverty or abject poverty? Thank you Sir. peace and tranquillity which I am noticing between the government and unions nowadays. We are aware HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… that we used to have challenges in the past, especially during discussions of the budget, public servants used MR SHAMUKUNI: Dr Gobotswang, the reason why to be confused about where their salaries stand, but Duma Boko said you are a doctor of low standard is ever since the Minister started the process of engaging because he was looking at the kind of questions you more with the unions and public servants, we can see the are asking. Sir, we want to eradicate abject poverty. results. We know that at this point in time, negotiations That is our aim. We are still continuing, our processes have long been done two years ago, they continued with are ongoing, we are doing what is good. Already Mr negotiations for this year. I am encouraging you that, Chairperson, over 2,090 beneficiaries have graduated even when the negotiations and agreements come to an out of Poverty Eradication Programme. We currently end, let us carry on with a system whereby they negotiate refer to them as small scale business owners, who we

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have launched, they acquired those packages as less HONOURABLE MEMBER: Today the social worker privileged people. From this period, 2011, over 2,090 is totally lost. have graduated into small business owners. I encourage you Honourable Members here to go and support these MR REATILE: Clarification. Thank you Honourable graduates at your constituencies, so that they sell their Chairperson. Honourable Member have you verified the products, help them to package their products so that we issue you are raising that International Disability Act see them in the shelves. Do not just criticise, it is your has not yet been signed or you are still talking about responsibility, especially those of you on the other side issues we talked about during our campaigns? I do not of the isle. want you to impute any improper motive; verify first before you speak. It would seem like I am teaching you Honourable Minister, continue with that programme improper things. and develop it. Honourable Hikuama knows that they produce coals at his constituency, assist them to package MR LUCAS: No, it is an issue I take seriously and which I can confirm because I know you like people and sell that coal so that you do not go and gather who take things seriously. The International Disability firewood at the farms. Thank you Mr Chairperson. Act was presented to us to sign so that we commit MR LUCAS (BOBONONG): Thank you Mr ourselves to the rights of people living with disabilities. My point was, Minister it should not seem like we are Chairperson. I would like to focus on the office which ignoring or we lack interest or do not care about issues Honourable Kwape wanted to get into before he ran out affecting people with disabilities. Let us take this issue of time. That office is at Office of the President. If we seriously. There is an issue which has been said for a long do not pay attention to that office, we will find it being time that the policy of people living with disabilities is overshadowed by many departments because there are being reviewed as Honourable Kablay sometimes says, many departments there and they have even outgrown it is always said to be in the review stage. So now, it is the office. It is an office of people living with disabilities. necessary that we see results in that ministry with a clear If we do not pay attention to it, we will end up leaving policy about people living with disabilities. it behind, without talking about it because it is an office which affect people who are living with disabilities. Furthermore, people living with disabilities do not have suitable facilities which cater for their needs. Minister, there is an international Act which was If you look around, the Government has not fully drafted in 2006 with the aim to protect the rights of committed herself to ensuring that people living with people living with disabilities. Unions for people living disabilities have facilities run by the Government. So with disabilities have long talked about it, they were Honourable Minister the issue is although you have a requesting that Botswana should sign the Act so that lot in your plate do not forget that it is necessary for we can be able to abide by the rights of people living people with disabilities to have facilities provided for with disabilities as stated in that international Act. I do by the Government. Perhaps one suggestion could be not know what is stopping us from signing that Act. If to establish them in districts so that people can be able to access them without having to travel long distances. there is something which is stopping us from signing We anticipate that it will be included in the budgets so it, we need the Minister to clarify what is stopping him that there can be a proper programme in place which because taking a long period of time without signing shows that the Government is committed to ensuring shows that you are not paying attention to issues of that people with disabilities have facilities in different people living with disabilities. It can also mean that you districts. If you are at Bobirwa and you have a child are ignoring them as leaders. Sometimes you can take living with disability, you do not know where to take them as issues… him/her. You become helpless; when you get to Phikwe, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. there is no such facility same with Palapye and other surrounding areas. This makes parents who have MR LUCAS: Who is seeking clarification? children with disabilities’s to struggle, so it needs to be HONOURABLE MEMBER: Your teacher. amended Honourable Minister.

MR LUCAS: Okay, clarify sir. I am a not satisfied with the support the Government give these organisations volunteering to assist people HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… with disabilities. We should support these organisations

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because they are volunteering. They augment the With those words in that subject, I conclude. Thank you Government’s shortcoming by setting up organisations Mr Chairperson. Thank you very much. but the Government seems to be a bit slow in supporting these organisations which shows lack of interest and MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Makwinja; you total failure. We should take this seriously in ensuring have four minutes. that these organisations are given support. ASSISTANT MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION We are now focusing on the buildings more especially (MS MAKWINJA): Thank you Mr Chairperson. Government buildings. There are buildings which Kindly allow me to thank the Minister for his request to date are not user friendly for people living with which I anticipate we will approve and I will be the disabilities because they were not built to cater for them. first one to say, let us allow the Honourable Minister The most disheartening thing is recently when I was to be allocated the funds so that he undertakes this having meetings at Mabolwe, I witnessed a situation at very difficult assignment bestowed on him to improve Mabolwe Primary School where a child with disability the economy of Botswana. I would like to quote him was unable to get into the classroom because there is no where he says, his plan or budget, “is meant to facilitate ramp. Most of the classrooms do not have ramps, so in National Development Plan (NDP) 11 theme of inclusive order for this child to get in the classroom he has to be growth for the realisation of employment,” underline lifted by others, in a despicable way. This calls for the “employment creation and poverty eradication.” Government to be serious so that such assistance… Mr Chairperson, he continues to talk about cluster HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… development which will assist in creating employment and doing what in agriculture is refered to as value MR LUCAS: I can donate only at Mabolwe Fidelis, chains. They talk about expanding Lobu Small Stock I cannot do so throughout the country. This is the Farming, which I request for the constituency of Government’s task, she should seriously ensure that Mmopane-Lentsweletau. I have said that, we have rich Government buildings are user friendly for people soils and beautiful vast land which will be good for living with disabilities. There are flats… small stock. Our constituency should be the first one MR KEKGONEGILE: Clarification. On that subject which this programme will be implemented in. of dignity Honourable Lucas, one can compare the Even the cluster of agro-business as some of you know situation of people with disabilities in our country to the that the constituency of Lentsweletau has a lot of water conditions of public servants. Public Sector Reforms at Kgope and most people have started agro-farming and which is always talked about with no proper definition. are already selling at Gaborone. It is one of the clusters Look at the conditions of service of public servants for which I would like to request the Minister to ensure that 53 years; one will be posted to Kasane, tomorrow to Gantsi, the following day to Maun. We have to change we empower such projects wherever they have already this situation. If you talk about Public Sector Reforms, started so that we can create employment or jobs which move away from transferring public servants all over you talked about in your speech. Kweneng at large, beef the country but rather regionalise their employment. production is one of the clusters which can benefit our economy by creating jobs. MR LUCAS: Thank you. I was saying there are flats which sometimes do not have lifts which therefore You talked about restructuring of Directorate of Public means people with disabilities are unable to get Service Management (DPSM). This thing is very assistance from those buildings, it is difficult. You will acceptable because we also talked about assessing find that one has to be assisted at the ground floor and the parastatals. As we assess Honourable, let us not that alone lowers their dignity. The Government has to omit to confirm that employees or people who will be be serious Honourable Morwaeng to take people with dealing with these programmes have qualifications disabilities serious. As a nation we have to be famous and experience which corresponds with transformation for respecting those people who are less priviledged in that we are talking about. We can try to change the life. That is the only way we can progress. If we have not departments or something, but if we do not ensure skills yet reached a point where we respect less priviledged match, it will be useless. We feel that a time has come people like people with disabilities then we cannot talk for some of responsibilities of DPSM to be handed about progress. over to the Ministries so that we can increase the public

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servants. If we do that, they will know that if things do them for the benefit of this nation, for the good of our not happen, we will not put the blame on DPSM but we people and workers of this country. In that manner, we have the right and we will be held answerable if we fail will continue to engage trade union movements as they to use these programmes to improve the lives and the also engage us as you can see that we have an agreement economy of Botswana, to take it from where it is to a to have finished discussions in two years. It is a serious high income status. Government which seeks to improve the lives of people. It is a Government whose leader His Excellency While still at that, thank you Honourable for the issue President Masisi’ cares about the desires of Batswana of HIV/AIDS which Honourable Members have been who are also a priority to him. mentioning that we fought a good fight. There are some people who we should not leave behind, children who Secondly, let me talk about an issue which affects as we speak ... mainly Members of Parliament. Honourable Members, Parliament has made a decision on your request MR SPEAKER: Order! Order! Honourable Minister, concerning Botswana Speaks. They decided that all your time is up! I may now call upon the Honourable Members of Parliament recommend people they want Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and to employ in their constituencies… Public Administration to reply to the debate. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Recommend who? MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Let me thank you Mr Chairperson for giving me the opportunity MR MORWAENG: …recommend to the Speaker, to respond to what my colleagues said in relation to the those people you want to employ in that office. Like budget request for my Ministry. I appreciate all the we said earlier, this thing will take effect from the 1st input Honourable Makwinja and Honourable Lucas. I of April. So, please do recommend to the Office of the am shocked that Honourable Lucas was so honourable Speaker, so that we can employ such people, it has today, my friend. You debated this in a magnificent way. been settled. In that manner, discuss with Parliament So, thank you very much... officers, they will advise you wisely concerning what is required. Your main task is to discuss with them as soon HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... as you leave this place. This thing is ongoing. We are MR MORWAENG: That is right. Thank you very committed to it so that we can employ youth who will st much Honourable Members. We have to appreciate fill those posts from the 1 of April. So, the best thing that most of the Members of Parliament present here you can do is to recommend to the Speaker. agreed and support our request. In that manner, I have MR MOSWAANE: Point of clarification. You are on to appreciate that. I will comment on two items which I point Minister. Explain the issue of poverty eradication think I need to address. Honourable Kwape talked about which has a backlog since 2017 although we approve the issue of trade unions; their relationship with the the budget every year. What will you do to improve it Government. I must say that it is a policy and intention since you have the power Minister? of this Government to escalate our relationship; the harmonious relationship that we have with trade unions Moreover, what are you going to do about HIV positive in this county. People must understand that this is the patients because Government tasked many Non- new administration... Governmental Organisations (NGOs) which assisted us with the fight against it? It is out of control nowadays. HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... We do not have a stand when it comes to HIV/AIDS. Thank you so much. MR MORWAENG: Yes, this is the new administration... MR MORWAENG: Thank you. I will come to this one. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... With regard to DPSM; it is engaging civil servants or MR MORWAENG: This is the new administration Mr Government employees. Permanent Secretaries (PSs) Chairperson. The current Government of His Excellency are also engaging their ...(interruptions)... thank you. President Masisi is committed to this harmonious So, in that case as Honourable Pule asked, DPSM is relationship with the trade unions. We are going to committed to engaging civil servants, to consult them, continue doing that, we consult them, we discuss with even different PSs are carrying on with that process.

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Now there are issues which Honourable Keorapetse MR MORWAENG: Very soon. Honourable Ramogapi mentioned but he is not here. At the moment, there is spoke about PEMANDU and the work relation between an ongoing rationalisation project in Government and at Government and workers. I believe I have answered to the right time, we will... say as Government, we are committed to consultation with the trade unions of this country. Batswana should HONOURABLE MEMBER: ...(Inaudible)... know that the current Government respects cooperation MR MORWAENG: No, the Government is currently and consultation. Consultation is key in our economy. undertaking an exercise on rationalisation of Government Therefore, I would like to indicate that we are committed to continue consulting with the unions going forward to ministerial portfolios. This is to ensure efficiency rectify the situation. Thank you. and effectiveness as well as remove any overlaps or duplications. The exercise is at an advanced stage and Independence of the Judiciary very soon, Government will announce the outcome, which will include the relocation of implementation Honourable Members, according to us, our Judiciary is portfolios to relevant ministries, as well as renaming independent. It is doing a good job. It is surprising that of some ministries. It is an ongoing exercise, we will when some people here win their cases, they believe announce at the right time. that our courts are independent but when the courts do not rule in their favour (ba tla o kare batho ba tswa go We do not have plans to have Directorate of Intelligence fagola dintša), they selfishly think that … Services (DIS) and Directorate on Corruption and Economic Crime (DCEC) removed from Office of the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… President and moved to Ministry of Defence, Justice MR MORWAENG: When they come back defeated and Security. from court, they say … HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… MR MOATLHODI: On a point of procedure Mr MR MORWAENG: We are saying we do not have that. Chairperson. Thank you Mr Chairperson. With all You will remove them when you are in power. due respect Mr Chairperson, this House is made up of Honourable Members. Therefore, the words used HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… by Honourable Minister for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public Administration also representing MR MORWAENG: I am responding to Honourable Office of the President are not appropriate. He is the Keorapetse who is not here. mirror of the President, he is the representative of the I believe we addressed Constitutional review yesterday President; His Excellency the President, can they be that the review process has far reaching implications. associated with a leader of the country? I need guidance As such, it requires comprehensive preparation and a reprimand Honourable Chairperson. and consultation, which is ongoing. The Cabinet is HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… considering a proposed plan, which will be shared upon approval. Like we have always been saying, the MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister! Government is committed to Constitutional review. MR MORWAENG: Thank you sir. It is not unusual Honourable Members, I implore you to realise and that a court can pronounce a decision immediately accept that there are some who have been given the after it has heard the matter. That is the way it is. This mandate by the nation of Botswana to rule and govern could happen especially where the court is called upon this country. Therefore, we are saying, for us who have to decide a narrow issue such as an interpretation of a been tasked with the responsibility of running this provision in a statute. In the Umbrella for Democratic country, we are committed to review this Constitution. Change (UDC) petition case, the Court of Appeal was We cannot review this Constitution the way you think, called upon to decide whether it had jurisdiction to anytime, but we are committed. Therefore, do not worry hear appeals involving election petitions by Members about it, we will review this Constitution very well. of Parliament and the court held that based on the HONOURABLE MEMBER: When? interpretation of Section 106, if you remember it, as

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read with 69 of the Constitution, it lacks jurisdiction. It HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… must be appreciated that in the UDC case as in all other cases, argument before the Court of Appeal is preceded MR MORWAENG: Let me resume my response Mr by filing of written submissions and so on and so forth. Chairperson. There is an issue here, my colleagues say that the Government media did not cover them during Therefore, the Electoral Act specifically provides that their meetings. To my colleague who said that let me election petition should be settled within 90 days of their point out that I have the statistics here that show that presentation to court. This answers the question where many of my colleagues were covered. The Government some were asking, why was the case dealt with quickly or civil servants of the department of Information; those at night? The law indicates that these cases should have of radio and television, did all the best they could to cover been dealt with within 90 days. Another issue raised at us. For example; Honourable Lesedi was covered on the courts is, Honourable Members, we must respect courts 8th of January, Honourable Baratiwa Oaitse Mathoothe and Judges because they do not have the time to come was covered on the 21st of January. In short, we have a and speak for themselves when they are attacked here. complete list that shows that many of us were covered. My request is that we respect our courts, even if we That way, it is unfair for us to attack civil servants and thought we will win cases and we lose instead, let us say they did not cover us. That in future will discourage accept the results, sit out for just one term of five years. these people who diligently do this exceptional job. We Honourable Lucas we tried for so many years. 2024 will have been covered, the list is there, a long one, but why come and they will run for elections again. do people say that they were not covered?

MINISTER OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. HOUSING DEVELOPMENT (MR KGAFELA): On a point of elucidation Mr Chairperson. Thank you MR MORWAENG: That way… Mr Chairperson. Honourable Minister, what you are saying about the recent Court of Appeal decision which HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. buttressed the position of the majority in the High Court, MR MORWAENG: …that is not right. Let me talk can you accept sir that it was consistent with yet another about other things, and finish with them. The other issue Court of Appeal decision of 2001, “the Kono Case,” that was mentioned here is the one of the Directorate of in which presiding were Judges Tebbut, Zietsman and Intelligence Services (DIS). The truth is that I do not Sir John Blofeld, none of whom are Batswana and all expect poachers and drug lords to fancy the DIS. I do three of whom are from outside this country. Would you accept sir that, that is the position that all which not expect that. our Court of Appeals did was consistent with what those HONOURABLE MEMBER: The truth. three Judges said in 2001 sir. Thank you. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Inaudible)… MR MORWAENG: Perfect! My sentiments exactly. That is exactly what I wanted to say Honourable MR MORWAENG: I do not expect poachers and drug Members. A question was asked as to why the High lords… Court is the final arbiter in election petitions involving Members of Parliament (Mps)? Honourable Members HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… that is the law. The rationale for not allowing petitioners to appeal to the Court of Appeal is that, an elected MR MORWAENG: I do not believe that… Government must be allowed to run and not be hindered HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Honourable by protracted litigation. Therefore… Chairperson. MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, the rules still apply, you either speak in Setswana or English, MR MORWAENG: No, let me speak. unless for some reason you are quoting. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. MR MORWAENG: Thank you very much Mr Speaker… HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you saying we are drug lords? HONOURABLE MEMBER: Do you think you are tumbling in the sand? MR MORWAENG: What I am saying is that the DIS…

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure. HONOURABLE MEMBER: You know yourself.

MR MORWAENG: …people who are… MR SALESHANDO: There is nothing like ‘you know yourself’. in Parliament we have a law that states that HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… we must not impute motives Honourable Kwape. We are MR RAMOGAPI: Point of procedure. Honourable not at a Kgotla at Mmathethe, we are in Parliament and Chairperson, you tried to advise Honourable that the there are laws. rule of the House still applies. He should choose to MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! I missed the inference speak either English or Setswana, but he keeps on code that would have included Members of Parliament. I switching. He despises you and he does not care. I mean thought when you said poachers … (Inaudible)… Those he is doing whatever he likes. who are criticizing, do whatever they… The extent that HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… he included Members of the House, he is obviously out of order. As I said, my understanding was poachers as MR MORWAENG: Let me repeat. DIS is an opposed to Honourable Members of this House. organisation that no Government or procedure of any HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Inaudible)… country can keep on saying that we have a security office like them, and then we continue to attack them MR CHAIRPERSON: That is why I did not every time when they have not done anything wrong. understand the reference being made to Honourable Honourable members, the DIS that we have now is not Members. Issues were raised about poaching a large the same as the one that some people suspected had a scale of rhinos and other things which was not done by hand… Honourable Members, but by others outside this House. That is how I understood it. If people are now going HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. to say they are poaching, and say all sorts of things, I did not think it applied to you at all. As I have said, MR MORWAENG: …in the killing of Motswaledi. if it did, then obviously, he is out of order. You cannot Some were friends with the people that were suspects. refer to Honourable Members of the House the way he What we are saying is that we do not expect… was talking, that will be out order. Honourable Minister, HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. clarify yourself.

MR MORWAENG: …that this DIS is that one, it is MR MORWAENG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I was different. saying some cases that are at courts of law like cases of Butterfly and others were mentioned, let me say; we HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… cannot…

MR MORWAENG: The intentions and determination MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, I said of this DIS is to do things right. Let us not confuse it in response to the objections which I have made, I with the one of the past era. I request that we support have understood you not to be referring to Honourable this organisation… Members. The Leader of Opposition understood you to be referring to Members of this House, and I am HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. saying if indeed that is what you meant, then you are out of order. If you commented as I understood, clarify MR MORWAENG: …so that it can do things right. Let yourself. Were you referring to Honourable Members of me conclude because time is our greatest enemy. this House? LEADER OF OPPOSITION (MR SALESHANDO): HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Inaudible)… Point of order. Mr Chairperson, the rules of the House do not allow for any Member to impute improper MR MORWAENG: You understood me very well Mr motives on others. A number of us stood up to express Chairperson, that I am talking about poachers because our dissatisfaction with the DIS. Now in his response, the issue at hand is DIS and what I am saying is that he is saying he does not expect drug lords and poachers poachers, drug lords, criminals and villains, there is no to like the DIS and does not explain which drug lord or way they can fancy this organisation, it keeps them on poacher expressed the reservations about the DIS. their toes.

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HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of procedure blame, to not point fingers at this department. When Mr Chairperson. cases of tenders are being taken to the courts and the complainant does not like the outcome, people will say MR MORWAENG: I am not attacking any of that DIS allots tenders even though it is not true. We my colleagues, I am talking about the fact that this have not seen DIS allotting tenders, therefore, that thing organisation is doing a job that most of Batswana who corresponds with a situation whereby when a department like tranquility, peace and for things to run smoothly, is not liked by people for reasons best known to them, parents who that have children at schools… they will not stop pointing fingers at it, not necessarily HONOURABLE MEMBER: Procedure Mr meaning that Honourable members are poachers. It only Chairperson. means that they are getting information from this. If they have been sent by poachers; they will not like DIS… MR MORWAENG: …will welcome this organisation. I am saying that not to attack my colleagues. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)…

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Applause!)…

MR MOATLHODI: Point of procedure. Thank you MR TSOGWANE: We are representing many people, Mr Chairperson. The Honourable Minister holding including poachers…(Interruptions)… the floor is replying to the debates and comments as MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order! Honourable made by Honourable Members in this House. Now, the metaphorism that he refers to Members of Parliament as Vice President (VP). poachers, I am not kindly taking to that Mr Chairperson, MR TSOGWANE:…We are here representing poachers and I pray for your indulgence. who are at our Constituencies we are representing... MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Honourable Moatlhodi, MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order! Honourable VP. I do not know which language I should speak. Maybe if Honourable Minister, move. I can speak Ikalanga you can understand. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… MR MORWAENG: Mr Chairperson, I… MR CHAIRPERSON: No! I asked the Minister whether he was referring to Honourable Members HONOURABLE MEMBER: Move! of this House because if he was, then he is out of order. I thought I was quite clear. As I understand, the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… Honourable Minister said, no! he was not referring to MR MORWAENG: …Before I move, I will like to Honourable Members of this House. point out...

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)... MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Minister, the MR CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is he replying to what you reason why I allowed the time not to be shown is to said, to you! Not saying that you are the culprits. show Members that by these interactions, they took away seven minutes from you. The time I am using is HONOURABLE MEMBER: Elucidation. 1555 hours, so move.

MR MORWAENG: Mr Chairperson, let me proceed… MR MORWAENG: Mr Chairperson, this concludes my budget proposal for Organisation 0200, Ministry HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)… for Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR Administration. I therefore request that the sum of TSOGWANE): Elucidation. Honourable Members, One Billion, Six Hundred and Forty-Six Million, Five let us listen to each other. Honourable Minister, many Hundred and Seventy-Three Thousand, Two Hundred criticisms were made about Directorate of Intelligence and Thirty Pula (P1,646,573,230) for the Recurrent and Security (DIS). What you are emphasising is that Budget as well as an amount of Five Hundred and Eighty- Honourable Members talked about tenders, nobody Two Million, Nine Hundred and Forty-Six Thousand, expects anyone who lost a tender even if they are to Seven Hundred and Seventy-Two Pula (P582,946,772)

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for the Development Budget be approved and stand System, developed the Public Assets Management part of the Estimates for the 2020/2021 financial year. I Policy during this financial year and an Integrated move accordingly, thank you Mr Chairman. Procurement Management System, which is being used by the Ministries of Local Government and Rural Question put and agreed to. Development, Defence, Justice and Security, Transport ORGANISATION 0300- MINISTRY and Communications as well as Finance and Economic OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC Development. DEVELOPMENT Let me also point out a number of ongoing projects MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order! Honourable Mr Chairperson. We have undertaken the Post- Members, please note that 2 hours, 25 minutes has been Implementation Review of the upgraded Government allocated to this organisation and I shall call upon the Accounting and Budgeting System (GABS) which Honourable Minister to reply to the debates at 1750 was completed in 2019. The intention of my ministry hours tomorrow and the question will be put at 1505 is to further develop GABS enhancements in the next hours tomorrow. financial year such as additional software components for improvement of security, document management MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC module and training of end users. DEVELOPMENT (DR MATSHEKA): Mr Chairperson, I am honoured to present to this Honourable Mr Chairperson, we are also undertaking a census Committee for the consideration and approval of the cartographic work operations and conducting of Ministry of Finance and Economic Development’s Botswana Multi-Topic Survey by Statistics Botswana, Recurrent and Development Budgets Proposals for which will be completed in November 2020. the financial year 2020/2021. Mr Chairperson, before We are also in this coming financial year which I present my proposed budget, I wish to highlight is ongoing, to prepare for the 2021 Population the budget utilisation as well as progress made by Census. We will also be financing, out of this budget, my ministry and parastatals. Mr Chairperson, under Botswana Savings Bank (BSB) as well as the National utilisation, the level of expenditure for Development Development Bank (NDB) operations which I have also th Budget as at the 11 of February 2020 stood at P479, alluded to in the Budget Speech. 628, 900 which is 93 per cent against budget. These were used for implementing computerisation, consultancies Mr Chairperson, in terms of the Public Finance and infrastructure projects. In terms of the Recurrent Management Reform Programme, the implementation of Budget, the level of expenditure as at 11th of February the Public Finance Management Reform Programme is 2020 stood at P867, 000, 000 or 91 per cent against the in its ninth year since inception in July 2010. The reform approved budget of P1 billion. These were used for programme will be undergoing further improvements salaries as well as allowances. during Financial Year 2020/21 using the results of the In terms of major initiatives under the Ministry… Third Public Expenditure and Financial Management Accounting Assessment which was conducted by my HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Inaudible)... ministry during 2019.

DR MATSHEKA: No, this is a summary, can you read On Public Investment Management, Mr Chairperson, that report. It is a summarised version, it is 20 minutes. continued bottlenecks in the implementation Mr Chairperson, my ministry continues to undertake of development programmes and the resultant several reforms, programmes and projects that are underspending of Development Budget point to capacity undertaken in order to improve service delivery to the challenges in areas such as project design, contracting nation. Mr Chairperson, I would like to highlight some processes, project implementation, project monitoring of the completed projects which includes; construction and evaluation both in Government, and should I say of revenue offices and staff houses in Shakawe, in the private sector. As such, ministries, departments Hukuntsi, Charles Hill, Kang and Nata villages, and and agencies are expected to adopt the three-phase also the refurbishment of the Public Procurement and appraisal process that entails planning, feasibility and Asset Disposal Board (PPADB) offices. We have also independent review in order to improve on projects concluded the development of Project Monitoring costing, scheduling and implementation.

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On Public Debts, Liabilities and Guarantee with the Ministry of Transport and Communication Management, we would like to report Mr Chairperson, around the possibility of ring-fencing our servers that under revenue collection and management that the provide support to the business community so that we Botswana Unified Revenue Services (BURS) reforms have minimal impact on service delivery. are mostly to do with improving efficiencies in revenue collection through automation of services. During Despite the above challenges Mr Chairperson, my financial year 2018/2019, the development of the ministry continues to find new ways of servicing Customs Management System Phase 2 took off, and Government departments and the economy. In this the Centralised Processing Hub was implemented. The regard, three initiatives which are being developed in automation is expected to improve revenue collection my ministry for provision of services electronically are in terms of timely and efficient collection including e-tax filing; e-payslip and e-procurement. The e-tax improvements to accuracy of revenue data. filing system enables taxpayers to file their tax returns electronically. Mr Chairperson, with regard to e-payslip, On Financial Inclusion, my ministry working with my ministry is working on reducing cost of printing Non-Bank Financial Institution Regulatory Authority monthly payslips for civil servants by introducing an (NBFIRA) offers deed of sessions commonly referred electronic payslip. On e-procurement, my ministry is to as Government Purchase Order Financing Service for developing a one-stop shop for all procurement related activities. The system will facilitate ease of doing Government jobs amongst others. This arrangement Mr business by reducing the number of fiscal interactions Chairperson, is intended to address an outcry from local and streamlining the process involved. Thus reducing companies which fails to execute Government projects the cost of procurement, improved transparency and due to cash flow constraint thereby enhancing financial increase market access and competitiveness. inclusion. Such facilities will benefit Small, Medium and Micro Enterprises (SMMEs), youth and start-up Mr Chairperson, following approval on 2019/20 businesses who often do not have the required financial Budget, the e-procurement project was characterised track record or collateral to access credit from financial by tender queries which resulted in the cancelation and institutions such as commercial banks. retendering for that service. This therefore, means that the budget was not fully utilised. There will however, be On E-services, which is part of the financial inclusion, my challenges as we expect, and this is why I was saying that ministry leverages on Information and Communication we will be dealing with the Ministry of Transport and Technology (ICT) for providing e-services. In this Communicating once the project is ongoing, to make regard, The Government Accounting and Budgeting sure that the backbone is strong or the IT infrastructure is strong. System (GABS) was upgraded in 2018 even though we still have experience in slowness, at times of none On financial intelligence matters Mr Chairperson, availability of the network. This has affected the we endeavour to ensure full compliance of Botswana processing of payments turnaround time significantly. laws with Anti-Money Laundering pieces of legislation which were passed on the 8th of August 2019 and they You may be aware Mr Chairperson, that GABS is a web- commenced on the 4th of September 2019. We will based system that functions only when there is internet therefore, be making efforts to ensure that we comply as connectivity. The absence of internet is exacerbated a country and move from the grey listing to green. by the old ICT infrastructure, hence the Ministry of Transport and Communications had to migrate Oracle In terms of parastatal organisations, Botswana Systems including GABS to new servers which are Institute of Chartered Accountants (BICA) facilitated Oracle super cluster servers. a development of risk based provisory manual which enables BICA to ensure member firms perform their Having realised this situation Mr Chairperson, at any individual risk assessments and join inspections with point when GABS is down for more than 30 minutes, the Financial Intelligence Agency (FIA). ministry’s departments have been advised to process payments to suppliers manually. However, this is not Mr Chairperson, with regard to Botswana Institute for encouraged as it contributes to data inaccuracies, but I Development Policy Analysis (BIDPA), during the can assure you Mr Chairperson, that we are engaging financial year 2019/20 BIDPA developed the National

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Poverty Eradication Policy and its implementation Mr Chairperson, this concludes my presentation of then. We will therefore, be following through the the 2020/2021 proposed Recurrent and Development recommendation of that report Mr Chairperson, so that Budgets of the Ministry of Finance and Economic we actually embark on the job that was set out. Development. I, therefore, propose and move that the sum of P1, 002,142,070 for Recurrent Budget and P151, With regard to Botswana Unified Revenue Service 545,828 for Development Budget stand as part of the (BURS), BURS continues its mandate to collect Schedule and Estimates. I thank you Mr Chairperson. revenue. As I have said, we are introducing technologies in order to ensure that we collect as much tax as we MR CHAIRPERSON: Now, the debate resumes. possibly can. MINISTER OF TERTIARY EDUCATION, Mr Chairperson, during the financial year 2020/2021 RESEARCH, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY (DR BURS will be constructing a one-stop border post at LETSHOLATHEBE): Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let Pioneer Gate Border Post. It will also refurbish the me thank you for giving me the opportunity to debate. Martins Drift as well as the Mamuno Border Post, Let me also thank the Minister of Finance and Economic Construction of staff houses at Ramatlabama Border Development for that presentation. Thank you Minister Post and Letlhakane, construction of recreational for giving us an excellent Budget Speech last time. facilities at Tlokweng Border Post. HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… In terms of the Botswana Savings Bank, it continues on its journey of providing financial services to all DR LETSHOLATHEBE: An excellent Budget Batswana. The bank currently provides services to more Speech, thank you uncle. I practice for television so I than 125 locations around the country. It will introduce want to debate in Setswana. Visa prepaid cards in 2020/21. This will help to deal HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… with unbanked section of our community as well as payment of salaries in remote areas. DR LETSHOLATHEBE: …(Laughter!)… How will I manage to address the people of Themashanga in The Public Procurement and Assets Disposal Board English? So, he also continues to give us his excellent (PPADB) Mr Chairperson, will be reviewing the Act presentation on Committee of Supply. Thank you in order to ease procurement. We expect that the Board Minister together with those that you work with. of PPADB will be doing major consultations with all parties involved, and we expect that we will actually Mr Chairperson, at page one of his speech, the Minister conclude this process of consultation, and the passing reported that he will try … perhaps I should give an of the amendment and revisions in this House at least by example in English; to align with the transformation 31st of March next year, if not earlier. agenda. Let me say, he did not disappoint me, he did PROPOSED MINISTRY BUDGET FOR exactly that. During my presentation, I will list things FINANCIAL YEAR 2020/2021 which show that the Minister is trying to align with the transformation. Indeed, it is good that you are practicing Mr Chairperson, the proposed budget allocations for what you preach Minister. In your 2020/2021 Budget the Ministry of Finance and Economic Development Speech, you encouraged all of us to try to take this for financial year 2020/2021 amounts to P1, 153, 687, serious. 898, which represents a decrease of 21 per cent over the financial year 2019/2020. Of this amount, a Recurrent Let me firstly appreciate that his Ministry made a Budget amounts to P1, 002, 142, 070 or 86 per cent of decision to fund especially, companies owned by the total, while Development Budget amount to P151, Batswana to perform the duties which the Government 545,828 or 13. 1 per cent. gave to them. Many of us know that companies owned Mr Chairperson, let me conclude by informing the by Batswana usually do well in order to win tenders. Honourable Committee that my ministry is committed The problem arises when they are supposed to buy those to ensuring good governance as well as efficient and goods and hand them over to the Government. Let me effective service delivery and management of the public thank you for that Minister. It is something which will finance. greatly assist companies owned by Batswana.

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I also want to talk about the issue of -tax filling Mr As the Minister of Tertiary Education, Research, Science Chairperson. We know that the issue of paying tax in and Technology, I assure you that we have students. our country has been a challenge. Some people have There are many people who are trained in Information been lazy to follow long queues, not only that but it Technology (IT), they are available. They should stop was affecting the way we are being productive. One running around changing passwords for men who keep could go to Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS) forgetting them. and queue the whole day. You would leave students at the university without lecturing them. So, I am really HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… thankful for that. DR LETSHOLATHEBE: They should do the job, The other issue which I want to talk about … they are there and ready. I believe that we will engage them. I do not know where I can chase those who forget HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… passwords to. Nowadays, we are doing technology even in farming. If it was in the past, I would say those that DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Sir? I taught must assist those who forget passwords and HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… maybe they should go and plough.

DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Okay! The other issue The issue of procurement like I just said, it shows a bit of transformation. The issue of Forth Industrial Revolution which I want to talk about is e-procurement. You can talks about internet of things. It says that we are going to see there is transformation. We are not ignorant. use computers in order to make work easy. Those who HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… are suspicious that we will not achieve the issue of Forth Industrial Revolution, I believe that they will be able to DR LETSHOLATHEBE: Wait! The issue of see that we are already in there, thanks to the Minister e-procurement which the Ministry of Finance and and others who are serious about this issue. Economic Development started will be of great help. I also want to talk about Botswana Institute for At times, you would find that there are tenders which Development Policy Analysis (BIDPA). Mr Chairperson, do not cost much, such as making many copies. As a BIDPA will carry out research so that we realise that scientist, I also know that if you keep using paper, it we can change the way we do things, so that we move will be thrown away and it will be shredded within two from resource-based to technology-based economy. days. It is not good for the environment. If that is the I also appreciate it very much. Honourable Members, case, e-procurement will try to address these issues. we know that research and innovation are important They will use paperless procurement such that when a things and we know innovation. What is innovation? ministry or department procures, it can easily go online Innovation is all about solving people’s problems. It to check if this company has paid BURS and check the is trying to solve people’s problems and research will trading license. That thing will improve the way we do identify where the problem is and how best to deal with business. The other thing which will happen is that, it it. So, I thank you for your presentation Minister. Let me will reduce the issue of contact. I believe they will do also from the Ministry of Tertiary Education, appreciate very well if tenders could just go online, if I can take my Botswana Institute for Development Policy Analysis computer and download what is there, put my figures (BIDPA) because they are going to work with us in a there and then send within a spark of a time while I am private sector project, engagement strategy and research, at Tsamaya, I take it that this will assist us to do many science, technology and innovation. Like I said, the things. engine that will drive us to Fourth Industrial Revolution and attain high economy is research and innovation. I The situation was such that whenever you go to a police believe that when my time comes to present, you will station, you would find businessmen in a queue. Police bear this in mind because we need them and when I stamps now have holes in the middle because of being request funds for them you should support me. used time and again, certifying and many more. That took a long time. I believe it will give the police an Let me conclude my debate with Statistics Botswana. opportunity to focus on what they are employed for, not Statistics Botswana; one thing that we lack in Botswana certifying papers. I believe that will greatly assist us, I is data. Data is very, very important to do a lot of appreciate it and it should be started very soon. things. You know, data might be in excess honourable,

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the problem is, sometimes when you are looking for if we cannot give them the reins to collect tax diligently information, I am a researcher by profession, you because most countries depend on taxes collected. That will be shown a stack of papers and you are told to is why I am saying let us relax the laws. After saying search through to find data. You know, such things are that Minister … demoralising. So, if Statistics Botswana can improve the way they collect data to contribute into the big MR TSHERE: Clarification. Thank you very much data, where everyone who wants to carry out research Director of Ceremonies and Honourable Reatile for or wants to do anything in our country can access data yielding. I understand that you are saying departments easily, it could help a lot. should generate their income like the department that you are talking about. I am now thinking of the police I believe that these are signs that you are serious about department, do you think they should also generate their transformation Minister. Maybe I should encourage income, submit a certain amount and keep some yet this other Ministers who are still to present, I included, to take is tantamount to harassment? Do you not think it will note and make our presentation with the transformation create conflict because the police are given a target of in the back of our mind. With that Mr Chairperson, I P10 million and therefore will charge everyone without thank you and I support the Minister. any leniency? Thank you.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… MR REATILE: Thank you sir. Thank you Honourable Tshere, but we do not have Director of Ceremonies, MR REATILE (JWANENG-MABUTSANE): Thank this is not a funeral, we say Chairman. Director of you Honourable Chairperson. I do not understand what Ceremonies is when we are at funerals or weddings. Honourable Saleshando’s problem now is. Why does it seem like he hates me and for what? Honourable HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… Chairperson, I rise to support Honourable Minister’s budget request for the year 2020/2021. This is because MR REATILE: Now on the issue that we can give we have noted how he has been working and even the police a target percentage, I do not think there is organisations under him are working very hard. a problem. However, we cannot apportion that if they do not meet the target they cannot be provided with Maybe the Minister when he responds, he will clarify resources because if law enforcement is done, we will some issues or concerns raised. Honourable Minister, start obeying road signs and no one will be charged by when Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS) the police. You will not over speed with your expensive appear before Statutory, and we ask them why it seems vehicles and therefore they will not charge anyone. they take all the funds to the coffer and not leave some We will not drive through a red traffic light because that they can use. They tell us that it is a requirement we will be aware that they are busy trying to meet the that they surrender everything and wait to be allocated. target. A month will go by with not much activity save I have noted that in their subventions, it does not show for isolated incidents of hitting traffic lights. I want to how much you are allocating them. That is what they said emphasise that we should not worry because the police when they appeared before the committee. Minister, my are not going to charge you if you obey the road signs desire was that BURS could do a good job in managing which you are aware of as an Honourable Member. to collect taxes only if we were giving them a certain percentage that they could remain with to develop itself Moving on to another issue Minister, I have a problem under your ministry, be it 12 or 20 per cent. They will with the organisations that you are heading. If work hard to secure the 12 per cent they can use for Government Employees Motor Vehicle and Residential developing their department. Property Advance Scheme (GEMVAS) which we believe falls under you, if I want a car, I submit the If they collect P4 billion, submit it, then request funds application and then in the afternoon I have it. If I want a for certain projects, they will not be motivated. I think house, it takes longer. It seems as if we are interested in they should be allowed to keep a certain percentage impoverishing Batswana because a vehicle in most cases of the tax they would have collected. Minister, if they cannot be inherited while a house can and therefore we do not collect enough taxes in a year, it means they are denying them a chance to live a comfortable life. To have nothing to continue their developments with. approve house loans at GEMVAS is quite a horrendous Therefore, I wanted you to look into this matter and see challenge. Let us ensure that GEMVAS standard reflects

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that it falls under Government not a company from invested. I want to pose it that, this is not exclusive to outside. It is financed by Government and we need to those two ministries, this is a Government broad problem ensure that public workers should be facilitated to have including the ministry that you lead that of Finance and accommodation. Not now where … some Honourable Economic Development. We have institutionalised Members once took a chance and they gave up. Then inefficiencies. I will give you an example, the amount you wonder if legislators failed, how will an ordinary of time it takes for anyone who has provided a service person, working for Government manage! GEMVAS is to Government or sold goods to Government is such an impossible organisation. Minister, you should inordinately long. You may respond by saying that it go and confirm the turnaround time for when one is is not your line ministries, it is normally the ministries applying for a house because we know turnaround that were procuring. At the end of the day, your ministry time for purchasing a vehicle. We do not understand should be concerned about reforming the system, and if they are working for garage owners to push sales of making sure that once an invoice is presented it should their vehicles as soon as possible or what. Maybe if we be possible for anyone in Botswana to be paid within find someone who sells houses, GEMVAS will now seven days. Come on, we are running a country that is sell those houses quickly and we will see their loans less than the size of, in terms of population, less than the being approved speedily. Minister, we need to attend to size of Soweto. that so that Batswana can see that we are representing them. I do not have much to say, today I just wanted to HONOURABLE MEMBER: Or Bulawayo. commend you. I have done that and keep up the good MR SALESHANDO: The inefficiencies that you have work Minister. Thank you. built-in are simply not excusable.

MR SALESHANDO (MAUN WEST): Thank you Mr I appreciate the intervention that you are proposing Chairperson. I want to start off with a general comment with regard to using the Government Purchase Order for the Minister, that maybe you need to as a general (GPOs) as a form of security for loans, but I am not comment like I said, relook the idea of always having an entrepreneur, so I may be wrong, but I suspected a budget theme and insisting that all ministries must the biggest problem is late payments by people who come with proposals or interventions that are aligned have rendered a service. There have been efforts to try to the theme. I understood the key issues from the and make arrangements for people to be able to claim Budget Speech to be insisting on transformation to a interest on amounts owing, that can never compensate high income economy as well as a knowledge-based for timely payment. economy. So far, if you were to ask five different Members of Parliament (MPs) about the first two Government Accounting and Budgeting System submissions; Parliament and Ministry for Presidential (GABS) has been around for more than 10 years, I think about 15 years. There has never been a year Affairs, Governance and Public Administration, ask any where it seemed that GABS is getting closer to working five for what they found to be the most transformative smoothly. The system is down is all over. Even here idea being tabled within those two, you are unlikely to in Parliament, was it not last week Mr Chairperson, get five different answers, and it simply confirms that when we were sent messages that we will not be paid it is business as usual. The word “transformation” just allowances due for last week, because of the problem of impressed us, it is a term that we throw around. There is GABS. Some stood to say, this is the Fourth Industrial absolutely nothing that stands out as a totally different Revolution we are getting there, when you just cannot way of doing business by the proposals for Parliament have a system that pays on time. Honourable Minister and Ministry for Presidential Affairs, Governance and of higher education says that means we are getting to Public Administration, and I expect the same tomorrow the Fourth Industrial Revolution, when you are in your when we deal with the Ministry of Education. own speech, you are saying that there is an electricity Speaking now more of the issues relevant to the ministry. problem. The thing Honourable Minister is that Mr Chairperson, one of the key things that came out electricity, is Second Industrial Revolution, which is again from the budget was that, the problem we have what we are grappling with. So, when you stand and is inefficiencies within particularly the Ministries tell Batswana that, no we are now delivering you to the of Education and Health. Where we do not get a Fourth Industrial Revolution… really have you ever proportionate outcome, proportionate to the resources seen someone marching to Lobatse and saying I am

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going to Tati West, and they think that the louder they furnished with a copy of that? If not, then there is no shout that, “I am going to Tati West,” they are getting point, we have become a very secretive Government. closer to Tati West, you are lost! You think this is what Before the Budget Speech that you presented, in Selebi can work, when you still have problems of electricity Phikwe I requested for a copy of the Mid Term Review, and network. it is difficult to get it. It is like this Executive thrives in keeping everyone in the dark, so that when you make Not long ago, Government invested a huge amount of false pronouncements we cannot challenge you? That is money on a cable, digging all the way up to Namibia. why I hope you will appreciate the need, on an urgent Some cable that was going to make things easier in the basis, to have a freedom of information law, access to Pacific Ocean for us to connect. Ever since that huge information law, because you are keeping the populace expenditure, I have not seen an improvement in our of this country in the dark about too many things. network systems. I really do not know if we are getting value out of that. As we speak today, a lot of countries My last point will be on levies. You have got a are creating city wide free Wi-Fi facilities. Free Wi-Fi proliferation of levies in this country and quite a number facilities in an entire city, we cannot provide a reliable of them not under your jurisdiction. It is just that every Wi-Fi within the Government enclave. That for me is a other department make their own small levies, we need big problem. to reconsider this. The alcohol levy, it used to be the highlight of every State of the Nation Address (SONA), I want to congratulate you for the efforts you make on now it is quiet we do not know how much we have there, transitioning for example, to a paperless payslip. Years even some of us who contributed we are just in the dark back, the Parliament of Rwanda celebrated becoming a we do not know where the money went. paperless Parliament. The amount of paper that moves within Government, just look at this huge document HONOURABLE MEMBER: It has gone to the produced, I do not know if it is weekly or every two campaign. weeks, a huge document, the Government Gazette, why can we not have this online? MR SALESHANDO: The problem is this, if you do not make provisions for you as Ministry of Finance and The greylisting part; today I will spare you on the topic Economic Development to be able to get those funds to you want to run away from permanently, of the missing the Consolidated Fund, I think there is a problem that P100 Billion. It has been what, almost four years is it not, we need to address. I thank you Mr Chairperson. when we were greylisted? You may pass all the laws, you know what the problem of Botswana is? It is not MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL the inability to pass laws, it is the inability to implement AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC the laws. That is where the problem is. Lo and behold, ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): Let me there is a high possibility that by December of 2020, thank you Mr Chairperson. we may now become a blacklisted country, because of implementation on the part of this new Government. We HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Murmurs)… were visited by some fanatic Mr Chairperson, boasting HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!)… about the new Government. You missed the show, Boswell and Mickey were in town, parading to us about MR MORWAENG: By standing, let me point out that the new Government, and they are gone. what was put before this House, by Honourable Minister of Finance and Development Honourable Dr Matsheka, I want to now briefly talk about Botswana Institute for is what we should support because, if we look back, Development Policy Analysis (BIDPA). Again, my what he has shown in this year’s budget is an indication concern is about value addition, I have always heard of a of something which has been drafted by a responsible number of consultancies conducted by BIDPA, but as a Ministry which is confident about taking our country private citizen, maybe even as a Member of Parliament somewhere. In that way, I confidently stand to support (MP), it is not easy to access some of the consultancies your Motion, and that Parliament should adopt it. that BIDPA has done for Government, I do not know if they are secretive. Even when you talk about BIDPA We should know that some people made a vow to conducting or crafting a policy on the pre-conditions oppose only, they believe that they will lose their jobs to a knowledge-based economy, are we going to be if they do not oppose. So, in that way, I am not shocked

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to see Opposition Members defending their vows. They HONOURABLE MEMBER: On a point of order Mr believe that they will be out of order if they do not Chairperson. oppose. In that way sir, I… MR MORWAENG: …In that way, I was saying… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… DR TSHABANG: Point of order Mr Chairperson. MR MORWAENG: As indicated, the obligation of I think the Honourable Member is out of order for some people is to oppose. We should ignore them and referring to people using uncommon names of animals. focus on our mandate. As some are debating, I will not I would like to ask him to withdraw those words. Thank respond to them, but you do know Honourable that you you very much. have cheated other people; you took away their party. It is not wrong, poor people are currently in debts and MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Morwaeng, wait. you are laughing at them. It is not wrong, you cheated Honourable Tshabang, give me those names, what did others. he say?

When we look at all the departments which are under Dr DR TSHABANG: He said “digogelathoko” (stubborn). Matsheka’s ministry, they are all very important to the HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… economy of our country. He has to be given funds as a way to support institutions like Botswana Savings Bank MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Morwaeng, (BSB), Bank of Botswana, Public Procurement and continue with your debate. Asset Disposal Board (PPADB) and Statistics Botswana as we will be getting into population census so that when MR MORWAENG: I request that, when I support this the country’s developments are made, we will know the Motion… total number of different groups of people in Botswana. MR KEORAPETSE: On a point of procedure Mr Who in his sensible mind can reject the Motion in which institutions like Statistics Botswana have to be helped, Chairperson. Do you now realise that, it is important more especially since they are approaching a huge to use that booth for what it is created for, to have project like this? We will be conducting a population interpreters that side? The interpretation could have census so that we can take our country forward when helped Dr Tshabang to know that, that word is not a making developments, we will also know where people name for animals; it means… are located as well as the total number of a population in a certain area. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)…

Pertaining to tax, Botswana Unified Revenue Service MR KEORAPETSE: We have to introduce Ikalanga (BURS); I do not know what you can do at your ministry and other languages here in Parliament. That booth Honourable Matsheka. While the Botswana Unified should be used for the interpretation which it was Revenue Service (BURS) is doing its difficult task of created for. collecting taxes for the country, there are some people who have decided to make noise every time when they MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Keorapetse, I have are told to do the rightful thing. They do not pay tax noted your point. Honourable Morwaeng, go ahead. when they are told to do so. They will get angry and say MR MORWAENG: The important thing is that I that they should be left alone; they want to do as they wish to support the Minister, more especially focusing please even though we need funds so that we can make on Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS), who developments. They become stubborn to an extent that they end up using their powers not to pay tax. Minister, collect tax for our country. Officers of this department I request that Botswana Unified Revenue Service often get attacked by people, but it is well known that (BURS) should not be threatened by the noise of people those officers cannot defend themselves. Others have who made vows to; firstly; they are stubborn, secondly; now made it a habit to attack BURS officers with words they do not want to abide by the law, thirdly; they are when they are told to do the right thing. The officers self-contradictory and fourth, they cannot be trusted by will simply say, “Mr so and so, we were saying that you anyone. Everyone should pay tax, more especially those should pay your tax,” they are associated with things who go around boasting… which are not true. Looking at how some of these people

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are, I do not know if officers of this department are MR CHAIRPERSON: No, let me be fair, unless you protected. I support the Motion in which you are asking can pick those points and say he is irrelevant, because for our support, so that you can be given funds which the only thing that I heard him doing was making some will be used to develop this country going forward. illustrations according to me. If I am wrong correct me, he made some illustrations on his points, but he has In that way, I do not want to talk too much because no always been on the subject matter. one in this House can reject a Motion like this one. Those who will be debating the way they will be debating, MINISTER FOR PRESIDENTIAL ‘hey! Some people from these parties..,’ no, it does not AFFAIRS, GOVERNANCE AND PUBLIC concern us. We will be with you until you ask for help. ADMINISTRATION (MR MORWAENG): No, let We are not going to leave you Honourable Members. me speak… People have lost hope in politics where people are being HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... promised unrealistic things. Minister, the government in which you are a minister under, you made promises at MR MORWAENG: Let me speak Mr Chairperson and Botswana Democratic Party that you are going to fulfil indicate that… all your promises. Minister, you did not promise people stars like some people who said that they will create LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): 100 000 jobs in a year. Today they are running around Point of procedure. I do not know what the commotion looking for money to pay lawyers who… is all about, it is not the first time he is the Member of Parliament in this House, and is not the first time for MR MOATLHODI: On a point of procedure Mr the Member to have a Leader of the House. I do not Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, one of the Standing know, I do not even remember a single day where the Orders is very clear and it says, but I cannot say it is Leader of the House was doing what he is requesting thumbs up. It says, ‘when a Member is holding the floor, from me. I do not know what he wants me to do, to he must confine himself to what exactly is before him,’ prevent Honourable Members from speaking, I do that is the prescribed chapter. I am afraid Mr Chairman not understand. I am not the Speaker, I do not control that even from your senior down to you, Honourable the procedures of this House. So the Speaker is a sole Minister of Presidential Affairs, Governance and Public regulator and the one who regulates the conduct of this Administration, has long been making irrelevant and House. So leave me alone Honourable Moatlhodi. disturbing statements here in Parliament and he was just HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Laughter!)... left to do so. I want to remind you that there is Setswana proverb which says, ‘mmitlwa wa noko o rotolwa ke o MR MORWAENG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, what mongwe,’ (meaning, an eye for an eye). In future, we I want to say since my name has been mentioned is that may retaliate in this very House. So please put this we have to be truthful because Honourable Moatlhodi House in order and call the Member to order. Above is sitting next to a person who said whatever he said so all, I am mostly embarrassed by His Honour the Vice as you explained, “mogoa dira o a bo a di ikgoela.” President, that as he is supposed to unite and reprimand, So I told you that if we continue with this decorum he gets involved in the drama, we shall fire back! Honourable Moatlhodi then it will not be right so I am HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... happy that you are the one who requested that things should be in order. In short, I support your request MR CHAIRPERSON (MR PULE): Honourable Honourable Minister to be allocated funds. Members, I want to clarify the words said by Honourable Moatlhodi. It is true, Standing Order 57.1, let me read it; MR MOSWAANE (FRANCISTOWN WEST): “a Member shall restrict his or her observations to the Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let me also indicate that, subject under discussion and shall not introduce matter Minister after intense consultations in the Government to formulate this budget I support you. Let us be honest; irrelevant to that subject.” Now my greatest difficulty since 1966 to date, Botswana Democratic Party (BDP) is where did Honourable Morwaeng become irrelevant? through its leadership grew the economy of Botswana. That is why I have a problem. Unless you can actually... It did everything to ensure that every Motswana HONOURABLE MEMBERS: ...(Murmurs)... participated and benefitted in the economy. Although

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that is the case, it does not impede us to raise concerns Another important issue is that let us try by all means which we are facing today and also advise the Minister to ensure that all gaps which are there in ministries are that we hear your request, and we will definitely approve closed. For example, when you look at many ministries, the budget, but our concerns are 1, 2, 3. they are moving from Government Enclave, they leave these buildings or they outgrow them and build new Minister, I want to shoot straight to the issue which I ones. When you look at the money used Minister Dr know…I am not sure if everyone knows how much this Matsheka, it is completely improper! You can pick from issue has plummeted the economy of Botswana. Local the questions already asked, if you look at the project business owners are in trouble because of Government of Ministry of Tertiary Education, Research, Science Accounting and Budgeting System (GABS). If it and Technology, P1 billion can be used in just three was possible, that system could be substituted with a months but the building is unoccupied, yet it is reported different one. As Batswana, we are unable to maintain that everything is fine. So pay attention to these things businesses due to this system always being down. So so that as we allocate you money, you should not find Minister, please look into this system perhaps it is these gaps, I am directing this to you because you are attacked by a virus which cause it to break down all the Botswana’s Finance Minister. time. So scrutinise it and see why GABS, since it is a HIS HONOUR THE VICE PRESIDENT (MR computerised system, does not work 60 per cent of the TSOGWANE): Point of elucidation. I concur with time. We cannot run the economy with such a system. you Honourable Moswaane if you talk about buildings There is no business owner who is paid on time. We and relocatio; it seems to be fashionable. When Central have now turned into beggars and some of our people Business District (CDB) was made, it was made to be are paying bribes so that they can be paid on time. That a commercial centre, it was not made for Government is not right Minister. Scrutinise that thing and kindly offices. So, I fully concur with you that the money allow me to say “thing” because it is an animal which is used for those buildings that ministries move to is a an obstacle in the economy of Botswana. lot and unnecessary. I am sure it is the concern of His Excellency (HE) as well. I thank you. Other issues which I want you to seriously address is MR MOSWAANE: Let me thank you very much His National Development Bank (NDB). We have long Honour the Vice President because I call that place an anticipated that it will become a commercial bank. I abyss. I can give you an example even though I am do not know if we are regressing or it will be possible. getting myself in trouble; Botswana Unified Revenue However Minister, I had a huge belief that Batswana Services (BURS) left their building that side, they are still will benefit from it. These are the issues which I think paying six months rental which is more than a million as I know you Minister, we grew up together in growing per month. If you look at it, they are here asking for money even though they throw it away every day. Those this economy, so do as I expect that the economy of are things which we have to closely look at. Another Batswana can be in a situation where we assist each example; the Government bought Orapa House; why is other, and every Motswana can welcome the request it not attracting people so that they can repair and rent you are making today. it? They ignore it and go to for those which are privately owned at the Central Business District (CBD). Why? Mr Chairperson, I have a concern; Public Procurement and Asset Disposal Board (PPADB) is a good Honourable Dr Matsheka take action brother. I want department which needs to be allocated funds as it you to know that I trust you. I want you to take action, requests. However Honourable Minister, there are huge go to CBD to find out what is attracting government problems which I want you to address in order to make ministries there. Is it space or what? I do not think it their job easier. We have long requested as Parliament is about fashion. There are some incentives which fall to have commercial courts to deal with cases so that a under corruption… turnaround time for a case should be 60 or 90 days at HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible)… most. I think this is a situation you can attempt to address Honourable Minister and ensure that the mandate of MR MOSWAANE: …which attract departments that PPADB is not hindered by court cases which can drag side. They say that, I have a building here, rental is this for years. Minister, if these issues are addressed, I think much and you will be rich such that even if you retire, this country can realise its goal to ensure that every you will have a good casket which will talk to you even Motswana benefits from the economy. after 100 years.

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HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)…

MR MOSWAANE: I want you to pay attention to MR RAMOGAPI: …ka fa morago… …(Laughter!)… this issue Minister that because of CBD or elsewhere, you know that Setswana is difficult for me, so bear with the Government will collapse. I do not think their me. Honourable Minister, your hands are tied because lease agreements pass through the Attorney General’s it is something which in the end, we will say you are Chambers. They have loopholes which someone did failing because it does not work yet you are not able to deliberately knowing very well what they want to control and improve it the way you may wish. So the benefit. issue of GABS makes our constituents suffer, public servants, tender-men, and everyone is suffering because Minister Matsheka, I would like you to focus on GABS is always not working. retailing. In retailing sir, all foreigners no longer want to use the swiping machine because they do not want My second issue sir, try by all means to have a committee their money to go through the bank. Sir, go to retailing that monitors budget which is similar to the committee businesses, they each have a bank and their treasurer. I that I am standing on their behalf, the one that I am the do not want to mention names because I will get myself Chairperson of, of Finance. That committee can help in trouble. These retailing foreign businesses are in you to monitor the budget of your ministry because three groups and when you go to their shops, they will the other Committee of Finance Expenditure is busy all tell you that they do not swipe… with other jobs. So, we can assist you and assess if our budget is going well in relation to where we are. Why HONOURABLE MEMBER: Clarification. are we not spending as expected because we have many MR MOSWAANE: No, I gave someone clarification over expenditures, we look at variances? last time and they used up my time. So, I will not allow Sir, there is an issue which is a major concern, which in it especially now that I am left with few minutes. your Ministry, you will hear them saying that it has been You must pay attention to it. Let us make a serious law 10 years since you had a vacancy of Director or Deputy that invoicing must have a traceable record in all shops of BURS. It has also been 10 years without employing which belong to Chinese, Indian and everybody. I am the Deputy Director of Financial Intelligence Agency sorry to mention those few people. This collapses the (FIA). These parastatals sir, they make it look like you economy of Botswana. Why are they avoiding to save a doing things properly, you will return the funds as if money in banks? I am sorry to say that. Thank you Mr you are lazy and you failed to work. Please work on that Chairperson. sir. Let people be employed wherever there are vacant posts so that work can be done because this results in MR RAMOGAPI (PALAPYE): Thank you Mr poor service delivery. Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I support the budget by the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. I The fourth issue that I want to talk about is booming the will keep advising him on what needs to be corrected. I economy or expanding the economy from three per cent am not a member of opposition who opposes everything, to somewhere better. You wrote it well by saying that we must give credit where it is due. you will increase it and do this and that. Sir, we believe that one step is something. Bring another programme HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… and annual targets to say this year I want to try this and MR RAMOGAPI: Sir, the first thing which I want to I will try this the following year. You should also give advise you about is that, let the issue of Government Ministries targets that you have to employ this number Accounting and Budgeting System (GABS) be taken of people, and this is our target. At the end, we would away from Department of Information Technology have employed this number of people. If we can do that, (DIT) to your ministry because your ministry is the we will go somewhere because Umbrella for Democratic one that deals with payments. When people cry, they Change (UDC) set a target to create 100 000 jobs. You look at you. If you can do that, you will be able to solve said that your target is to employ more people than UDC people`s problems because you have the coffers. Batho targeted, that you will employ more than 100 000 people ba go bofeletse mabogo…meaning that your hands are through the electric car. So, we are saying that let us do tied… that because many Batswana are unemployed.

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Another issue which you oversee is the glass project. is happening is that the levy is collected but the people If you recall, the Botswana Development Corporation collecting it are not taking it to where it is supposed (BDC) funded the glass project with a lot of money. Now, to be because we used not to buy plastics but you it looks like it is not mentioned anywhere. This troubles made us buy plastics. Where is the plastic levy? It has us because it seems like money has been laundered and disappeared! Tourism, electricity and fuels levies, if we are quiet about it. Let the glass project be revived, we are not careful, at the end they will disappear like employ people so that they can benefit something from what happened with National Petroleum Fund (NPF). it because it will take us somewhere if we can do that sir. Nowadays funds easily disappear. Let us work together and rectify these things, otherwise our Botswana, the The fifth issue which I want to talk about is the procedure only one we have, will not go anywhere. Honourable to approve budget. This procedure is wrong. Right now Minister, let us look forward, let us set targets, prioritise Ministers are the ones who do it; they have drafted the projects from time to time and most importantly, budget, debate it and also put a stamp declaring that it supervise all these ministries because you are the one is good. No! other countries will laugh at us. It is not who allocated funds. We are speaking for you because supposed to be like that. Let us do things accordingly the Minister of Finance and Economic Development has and separate powers. We should know that Minister released funds, he should check why all those ministries works there, Parliament is there so that we can do things are not spending or overspending funds. If we can do accordingly when we budget. that, we will take our country forward. Thank you sir.

Another troubling issue is an animal called poor DR GOBOTSWANG (SEFHARE- implementation. In all your ministries, everything is RAMOKGONAMI): Thank you Mr Chairperson. stuck because of poor implementation… Let me also comment on the Minister of Finance and HONOURABLE MEMBER: That animal is here, it Economic Development’s presentation. Firstly, you has arrived. cannot avoid issues of P100 billion and the issue of targets. I know beyond a shadow of doubt that these two MR RAMOGAPI: Since we are saying the 12th issues put you in a bad light and you need to take them Parliament is all about inclusivity, Finance, Trade and seriously. If we tell the world that Central Bank can Economics Committee must assist you and visit some manage to lose funds to the tune of P100 billion, and the projects to ensure that they are implemented well. We Minister of Finance and Economic Development does are volunteering sir. not articulate clearly on it, but rather tries to joke about it, it is a serious issue which jeorpadises Central Bank Another issue which your ministry seems to be taking and Botswana. You should have protected the integrity for granted is that we are in a grey area at Financial of Central Bank as a Minister of Finance and Economic Intelligence Agency (FIA) and we are about to be in Development. I am wondering what the previous the black area or red! This means that you must rise up to make sure that our country is cleared from cases governors of Central Bank of Botswana are thinking; of money laundering and terrorism. I mentioned this Ms Mohohlo, I even met Keith Hermes yesterday, yesterday that if we are not careful, our neighbouring when they hear this and we do not hear anything from countries are performing better than us and some the Minister of Finance and Economic Development. members denied that. Right now we are in the black area Honourable Minister, when you respond to our issues, and that is bad. you should try and address the issue of P100 billion in a way that when other countries are listening, they will Let me move on to the issue of controlling and see that we are serious. monitoring of levy tax. We once had plastic levy. Just ask yourselves where the plastic levy is. HONOURABLE MEMBER: Where do you get that?

HONOURABLE MEMBER: Ask that side. DR GOBOTSWANG: I am talking about… of Finance.

MR RAMOGAPI: … (Laughter!)… I do not blame HONOURABLE MEMBER: Economy. you for shifting the blame. We were told that we can DR GOBOTSWANG: It is everywhere. buy plastics and the money accrued will go to plastic levy. It has disappeared. We do not understand whether HONOURABLE MEMBER: We are not talking about the levy has disappeared or what is happening? What pharmacy.

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DR GOBOTSWANG: Bank of Botswana controls all HONOURABLE MEMBER: Are you saying there is the banks in Botswana. If it is supposed to be the one nothing? ensuring that commercial banks are run properly, and it is rumoured to have lost such huge sum of P100 billion, HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… if you are an investor from outside the country, there is HONOURABLE MEMBER: What about Palapye? no… DR GOBOTSWANG: I believe we know how Botswana ASSISTANT MINISTER OF LOCAL AND RURAL Unified Revenue Services (BURS) was used in politics. DEVELOPMENT (MR MODUKANELE): Point of I do not have time but I hope we will have ample time to order. Mr Chairperson, you have just quoted the relevant talk about it because it has been politicised in 2019. I do Standing Order that we should confine ourselves to what not want to believe that Opposition leaders are the only is before us. What is before us is the Minister of Finance ones who have cases with BURS. After elections, all and Economic Development’s presentation, there is went quiet. You then understand why they do not want to nowhere, where he talks about the P100 billion and fill the position of the Director of BURS because when those irrelevances. Please admonish Mr Chairperson. you are acting, you can easily be manipulated, you take HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… instructions from everyone even the likes of Honourable Molale who know nothing about taxes. MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Members, I have not heard him being irrelevant. He was giving examples, HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Laughter!)… trying to illustrate a debate. HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: … (Murmurs)… DR GOBOTSWANG: I want to speed up and talk DR GOBOTSWANG: I believe that is clear. about taxing pensions. Honourable Matsheka, do you mean that a person who is on pension, their pension There is the issue of targets; he cannot escape because should be taxed? I have a problem with this issue. Let us it is the truth. I saw a correspondence of Ministry of introspect. The thing is, when you are an elderly person, Agricultural Development and Food Security which you have many expenses, with you becoming weak, you showcased their efforts of setting targets because if are supposed to visit hospitals, you should be provided you do not set targets, how are you going to measure with a certain type of care. Are we really saying that we progress? It is important that targets are set in all should go on and tax an elderly person’s pension? No, projects. Right now we are talking about turnaround that is not right. time, that we want… There is another issue regarding the Ministry of MR SALESHANDO: Elucidation. Thank you Mr Finance and Economic Development of coordination Chairperson. Just a quick one to point out that the of developments. There used to be a department called Ministry of Investment, Trade and Industry had a target Rural Development Coordination Department/Division, in terms of the number of jobs they wanted to create it was under the Ministry of Finance and Economic in the current year, contrary to what the Minister said, Development. I hear that it has been moved to the that those who set those targets never achieve them, they have already exceeded their target for 2019/2020, and Ministry of Local Government and Rural Development, they have a new target for job creation for 2020/2021. which belongs to Honourable Molale. No, it is lost. If Thank you. there is a Ministry that should have other departments under it, it is the Finance and Economic Development DR GOBOTSWANG: Thank you sir. Minister, you Ministry, if not, maybe it can be Office of the President will be a great disappointment if you do not withdraw even though it is overwhelmed, but the Finance and the statement you made that you do not set targets. Economic Development Ministry is the one that this Honourable Members, we have a challenge in our department should be under, so that it can coordinate constituencies but a Motion was brought to request other departments. At the Ministry of Local Government Finance and Economic Development to try and and Rural Development it is lost. ensure that we have banks in rural areas. We need to do something because, come to think of it, the whole I want to briefly get into this issue that you say you Tswapong Region does not even have an Automated want to fix tender laws; public procurement. You should Teller Machine (ATM), something needs to be done. tighten them so that there is no way that the Directorate

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of Intelligence and Security (DIS) can interfere. It has into the issue of taxes for Botswana Unified Revenue messed up things for us, it has wasted our time, it has Service (BURS). The main issue is that, Batswana slowed developments, and we have incurred so many should understand the purpose of tax. I suspect that expenses. Not only that, you should also look into issues there is not enough information for Batswana to of constant complaints from people. In some instances, understand why they should pay tax, what tax is used people complain and when their cases are still on, a for. That is the reason that when people are told to pay project has stopped, after months they say that they are tax, they then think that they are being harassed or that withdrawing the case. This issue of people stopping they are being robbed. Your Ministry should increase projects, and later saying that they are withdrawing public education on this, to show the public that since cases, we should look into it, and see that it is fixed. If we get health services without paying anything, it is the we can do that, I feel that will be a step forward. tax money that builds those clinics, and buys medication There is an issue that you want to improve Ministries that we need. We also get education for free, that is a and include technology and so forth. The thing is, there result of tax. was once a project called e-Government, that money MR MOATLHODI: Correction. Thank you Honourable was wasted on; I believe it was about P600 million. Chairperson, thank you Honourable Minister, and also a Even now, we never heard what we have benefited from Member of Parliament for Shashe West. At our clinics, this P600 million. It is just quiet, we cannot understand at least those at Tonota, everyone, even me when I am what is going on. If you have time Honourable, these not well, I pay P5. If we are supposed to be assisted for issues of the P600 million and technology, we would free, that means we are being robbed, I should go and like their details to be explained. request my constituents to go and get a refund. Can you I want to go back to the issue of border; Martin’s Drift make it clear Honourable. Honourable, I heard you say that you want to fix some MR MOLAO: Aah! Since it is an elder talking, I will things at Martin’s Drift and so on. What I have realised not address it, if it was Honourable Lucas speaking, I at Martin’s Drift is that, Honourable, you should keep could have answered differently. What I am trying to say an eye there. Your employees and those of Immigration is that, some even go there without that P5. Even that because it is said that Martin’s Drift is under your paracetamol you are given, there is nowhere you can get Ministry, that means that the accommodation for it for P5. That is where tax functions. Now information employees of Immigration, Botswana Unified Revenue must be availed to the public. I also want to point out Services (BURS) and Customs, is your responsibility. that, no, this Ministry, even if we attack them, use words Just go there and see, people’s accommodation is against them, let them tighten their laws. Everybody appalling. Just one room, can you sleep in that one room? who is supposed to pay tax should pay, regardless of the A person living with the wife and children, how can they have privacy in one room? There is no accommodation, time, what is happening, who they are, what is wrong, some are staying at Lerala; 32 kilometers. Honourable everybody must pay tax especially us in this House who Modukanele, can you assist me… are national leaders. The thing is when you are a leader, the public copies your behaviour to see how things are HONOURABLE MEMBER: What he does is just done. We should know that as leaders, we have the giggle. influence over the behaviour of other people. Nowif DR GOBOTSWANG: You are just giggling while you are a leader and you are told to improve something people are suffering at Martin’s Drift. Your employees that you are not doing right, and you say you are being travel 32 kilometers every morning: they travel 64 harassed, when it comes to your followers how can they kilometers a day. There is no accommodation. Can you improve and how are they supposed to know what to try and assess this situation so that it is fixed Honourable. do? I believe that we should be honest when involved Thank you. in leadership or as leaders. At all times, we should try MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION (MR to follow the rules so that the public can copy from MOLAO): Thank you Mr Chairperson. Let me state us. That is what we need to talk about. This constant that I support Honourable Minister Matsheka in the complaining that as a certain individual you are being budget proposal for his Ministry. Let me start by getting harassed, if you are not doing anything wrong, why will

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you be harassed? The thing is, you can only be harassed Let me conclude on the issue of Public Procurement if you are doing something wrong. We should behave and Assets Disposal Board (PPADB) Act review, that accordingly as leaders, and know that it is important to is it important. Sometimes, the issue that usually comes do so. up that ministries do not utilise funds allocated to them comes from the procurement system. The tenders will be I want to conclude on this issue of taxes, I think we have issued, then the case is registered at the courts without talked about it. Those who were harassed have paid, if being tried and years pass by and the funds end up being they have not paid, they should pay or continue to be returned while Batswana will be there waiting for the harassed until they pay. services. This is something which we should hasten to Furthermore, you mentioned Botswana Savings Bank address. (BSB) in your proposal; I believe that it will deliver services to Batswana in remote areas, that may have My wish is that, we have to assess protests about tenders; been far from bank services. That is a step in the you will find that some cases are just to trivialise; right direction. We would like you to encourage them someone reporting a case which they know they are not Honorable Minister so that eventually they become a interested in winning, all because they want to sabotage proper commercial bank that can compete with the likes the person who has won the tender, and then they take of Absa, Standard, and pave way for us to have a truly the matter to court. The case will take years without indigenous bank of Botswana. I believe that BSB is in a being tried and it will not bother them. Subsequently, position to be one of the independent banks, and we can there will be cost escalations and government services achieve that this way. will be delayed and eventually the economy will feel the pressure. We have to have a system which will look The e-services developments that you are making at these issues and see what to do about people who go pertaining to tax issues, procurement and payslips, I and protest cases even when it was not necessary to believe that if they can function properly, they will do so, when things do not go the way they had hoped, help to speed up services which are being distributed realising that they rushed to the high courts even though to Batswana. it was not necessary. There must be a penalty that is Minister, there is an issue of financial inclusion; I am attached so that when people go there, they will have grateful of how you presented it, that people can use solid reasons as to why they are taking the matter to the Government Purchase Order (GPO) to borrow money courts. We recently saw people protesting that elections but I also believe that we left out one thing. When His were rigged, they took the matter to the high Court even Excellency the President assumed the presidency in though they did not have a case. They are now crying 2018, he talked about financial inclusion with respect to (go inyanyarela) saying that they need donations to pay developing a collateral registry, which can help people the costs even though they did not inform people that who do not have plots or houses to use as security at they are going to… the banks that when a person borrows money. When MR CHAIRPERSON: Your time is up Honourable a movable property is being used, they can be able to Member! Your time is up! Honourable Keorapetse, borrow money. This is one of the issues which we have you will be next. May you please hold it right there, let to hasten to address. Some people have the potential to me just say something. Honourable Members, I have a pay loans even though they do not have plots which they complaint. Can I bring you to the attention of Standing can secure their loans with. We are leaving them out, but Order 17.1 which talks about the quorum, it says, “The they could manage to improve their lives, because we quorum required to constitute the sitting of the House said something which was mentioned by the President shall be one-third of the Membership of the House.” So in his first State of the Nation Address (SONA) when he I plead with you, check if we are still within the quorum took the presidency. The minister who came before you, before you go outside. Mr Matambo, also addressed it. Let us address it and not leave it behind. We told Batswana that the aim is for MR KEORAPETSE (SELEBI PHIKWE WEST): everyone to be able to borrow money from the banks in Thank you Mr Chairperson. order to improve his or her life. We should not forget it, it should not be left behind because I believe that we MR MMOLOTSI: On a point of procedure. Thank will be leaving behind a group of people if we do not do you very much Mr Chairperson. I thought that you will the collateral registry which we talked about. correct the procedure. The word “go inyanyarela” which

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means to cry is unparliamentary Mr Chairperson. May borrow from any country or international financial you please ask the Honourable Member to withdraw it, institutions, we are not at that state. Instead, we in the that word cannot be used to address an older person, UDC support and encourage domestic borrowing by more especially here in Parliament. Those are bad words issuing Government bonds or financing infrastructure Mr Chairperson. development from our accumulated savings in the Government Investment Accounts at the Central Bank. MR KEORAPETSE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I just wanted to provide some alternatives HONOURABLE MEMBER: What did you say about and I will want to start with raising Government the foreign reserves? revenue, but let me just first clarify that Mr Chairperson, the Umbrella for Democratic Change (UDC) does not MR KEORAPETSE: I was saying that we also invest have any P10 million legal bill, we do not have that. them, now we have up to 15 months of imports cover, we can have a little as well. On the alternatives; Honourable Minister, we should mobilise domestic savings in sectors such as pensions On tax Honourable Minister, Honourable Molale, I said, to finance infrastructure development. That is our view I am providing alternatives only, I am not opposing... from this side. Let us also invest more on our foreign MR MOATLHODI: On a point of correction. Thank reserves in our economy. We need to also have our high you very much Mr Chairperson. I am just trying to value tourism payment to be made home. I think there is correct my neighbour here; he is saying … leakage here, we are losing a lot of money. If somebody wants to go and sleep, say at the Great Plains, where a HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Inaudible) … room can go for about P110 000 per person per night, most of these payments are done outside the country and MR MOATLHODI: Yes, he is not immune to our view is that we are losing a lot of money in that correction by the way, more especially from the moving regard. Let us invest our pensions in our economy, 75 archives like me. He is saying, we should invest the per cent of over P150 billion is invested offshore and foreign reserves here, for this country to generate more our view is that this money is to be invested here to try reserves, we ought to export as much as we possibly and raise revenue that we so much need. can, then we will generate the reserves which are very good for this country. Thank you my learned friend. We talked about tollgates; we still reiterate that there is a need to first and foremost improve our infrastructure; MR KEORAPETSE: Well, that is a debate for another dualise or have multiple carriageway of the A1 from day. I am amenable to your wisdom. On tax, we are of the Ramatlabama to Ramokgwebana, and then erect the view there has to be efficiency and effectiveness in the tollgates to raise revenue. We are told that when we collection of Government revenue through capacitation have tollgates, we have to have alternative routes; yes, of the Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS) and let us have alternative routes. My alternative route if I making the requirements for submission of personal tax am going to Selebi Phikwe for instance, if I do not want returns applicable only to those with additional income to use the A1, I can use the Molepolole road to Serowe, or jobs to free the BURS staff that is to focus more on and then go through Palapye, then I join as if I am going valuable tax collection. This was a recommendation by Bobonong. That is my alternative route if I do not want the International Monitoring Fund (IMF) by the way. Let to pay a tollgate. us free the staff to focus on more valuable tax collection by having those with additional income or extra jobs Also Honourable Minister, there are these absentee to submit personal tax returns. Make it compulsory as landlords who own huge chunks of land and that land Honourable Moswaane had suggested and as I have also is laying fallow for many years. Our idea is that impose suggested when I responded to the general principles of development covenant and heavy tax on these absentee the budget, to have all businesses with annual turnover landlords who own huge chunks of freehold land. of a million but again here, I am amenable to your From this side of the aisle, we have and still advise learned advice, to have payment terminal in the form Government to avoid exploitation of foreign borrowing of Electronic Data Capture Machine or Card Swipe which comes with high interest rate and some ruthless Machines linked to BURS to monitor transactions. We conditions. We contend that we are not obliged to are losing a lot of money. We are paying with cash,

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during our campaigns, paying t-shirts, cortex boards, tax incentives for companies that employ young people. caps and all sorts of things, hard cash and I have never Let us Honourable Minister, deal firmly with transfer paid any Motswana with cash. I was paying Indians and pricing. It is very important Honourable Minister. Chinese. Lastly, please insure Government vehicles because HONOURABLE MEMBER: … (Inaudible) … you are insuring them through drivers. If a driver has an accident, they get into a lot of trouble because MR KEORAPETSE: Cash! Why do these guys insist Government vehicles are not insured. Please! Please! on being paid through cash? The idea Honourable Please! Insure Government vehicles and not insure Minister is that let us have Electronic Capture Machines them through drivers. These poor people earn very little, Data or Card Swipe Machines linked to the BURS to if they have an accident then they will be in a lot of monitor transactions. trouble. A person is bound to make mistakes and is one We fervently reject all increase of hidden taxes in the who can correct those mistakes. I can after this, get in form of service fees and levies because our people are a car accident and I will be expected to pay. I think you already burdened by for instance, black tax. I do not understand my point Honourable Minister. Thank you. know if there is anyone here who is not paying black MR KAPINGA (OKAVANGO): Thank you very much tax. In light of high unemployment where almost all Mr Chairperson. I had lost hope as I thought you will households have individuals who are unemployed, not see me since the Minister was standing. Honourable those who are employed have to pay black tax in terms Minister, when I commented on your Budget Speech, I of taking care of your relatives. If you come to us with spoke about the reality of trying to introduce change in levies and service fees, if you increase these, you are the mix of what… increasing hidden taxes and it can only serve to burden our own people. So we are already burdened by low MR CHAIRPERSON: Honourable Kapinga, you wages and black tax. We cannot afford anymore hidden should know that you are left with only one minute. You taxes. only have one minute.

Honourable Minister, please abolish pink tax. Pink tax MR KAPINGA: Is that so? Then I will go straight must be abolished. We believe that tampons, sanitary to the issues that I want to raise although there are napkins, menstrual cups and comparable products are many. Honourable Minister, we as the Umbrella for basic unavoidable necessities for women and should be Democratic Change (UDC), during our campaign, we made tax exempted. I have counted more than 10 states spoke about the need to raise the rate of the Old Age in the United State (US). Kenya, I think in 2014, they Pension. You are in charge of the economy. We would abolished pink tax. They have also abolished at some like to hear an objective sober response as to why your point, import duty on related products. In the United Government cannot raise the Old Age Pension. If not to Kingdom (UK), I know they have reduced it. In other P1 500 but to something that really makes sense rather countries, Malaysia, if my memory serves me well, they than the current P500 that our elders are earning. are dealing with it. It is a contemporary debate. Let us consider this. The second point I would like to make Honourable Minister is that, we in the Okavango, we do not Let us also consider wealth tax as the French Economist, have even a single ATM in Shakawe. Serving all that Thomas Piketty advised in his book, “Capital in the hinterland, there is no ATM in Shakawe and access to Twenty-First Century”, so that we can address wealth banking facilities in terms of IMF and the World Bank is one of the indicators of the quality of life of people. and income inequalities. I mean if Honourable Molale So if we do not have access even to a basic thing like an buys a luxurious beverage of P10 000, do not tax him ATM, you can imagine how poor our lives are. the same as me, yet I bought a quart. Last one, I would like you Honourable Minister to HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… introduce a situation where you send your officers outside to other international organisations. They should MR KEORAPETSE: Let us consider wealth tax for not just grow in the ministry and retire whilst there. luxury goods and think about sin taxes. I think sin taxes, we should also consider them. Let us begin to think MR CHAIRPERSON: Order! Order Honourable about financial transaction taxes as well as employment Members!

34 Hansard No 196 Wednesday 26th February, 2020 ORGANISATION 0300- MINISTRY OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT - Committee of Supply

MR MOATLHODI: Clarification. Please Honourable more than what we agreed. It is an existing process sir Chairperson, I want to assist Members of Parliament. so that we can take responsibility as the Finance office. This issue of ATMs, I personally requested for them. I appreciate how you answered Honourable Tshere, you You go to the head office of any bank and plead with asked so that you can make him to realise that no, he them and they will listen to you. Please! You do not must leave some things for those who reign. have to involve Government, you go there yourselves. HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Laughter!)… HONOURABLE MEMBERS: …(Murmurs)… HONOURABLE MEMBER: He will knock off MR CHAIRPERSON: I now call the Honourable without saying anything. Minister for Finance and Economic Development to reply to the debate. DR MATSHEKA: The issue of Government Employees MINISTER OF FINANCE AND ECONOMIC Motor Vehicle and Residential Property Advance DEVELOPMENT (DR MATSHEKA): Let me thank Scheme (GEMVAS) is very important. It is true, it is the Honourable Members for their comments, words of not only GEMVAS Honourable Member, everywhere encouragement and the feedback that you have provided. you go in order to buy a car, it is easy to get it than a Let me start with Honourable Letsholathebe. Let me house because there are procedures which appear like thank you for comprehending this issue very well. Let hindrances. It is unfortunate because I cannot give you me indicate that it is our goal as the Government to help our turnaround times as I speak, I will find them before small enterprises and also update the technology in all continuing tomorrow. A house will require you to do Government sectors to improve service delivery. Let conveyancing, registration of security, it is a long and me also confirm that it is true that Botswana Institute slow process. I agree with you that yes it is true; it is like for Development Policy Analysis (BIDPA) is focusing we are encouraging people to have cars than houses. Let on transforming our economy to a knowledge based me answer Honourable Saleshando today. Let me also economy. Therefore, we will have good advisors on thank him for… how best we can manage the economy. HONOURABLE MEMBER: He is not in. The issue of Statistics Botswana, it is true Honourable DR MATSHEKA: Listen for him Honourable Member. Members that many of the statistics which are required The transformation that we are talking about, we expect in order to carry out the process of infrastructure, those statistics are not coming at a proper time and with quality. those who will present to show where transformation is That can affect the developmental plans to improve in their presentations. In that manner, we will be able to our employees. I believe I answered Honourable have one target for our speech. Letsholathebe and I appreciate the encouragement that On the issue of bringing money in an inappropriate you gave me. way, I said the main message of the Government in I greet you and appreciate what you said Honourable the speech is to improve how we spend money. I gave Reatile. You also reminded yourself that if you are examples with the Ministry of Education and Ministry accurate, you must ask for something from me. of Health, I did not mean that we are not dealing with Honourable Members, the issue that you talked about the work which is in all Government parastatals, so that colleague which corresponds with the fact that a target we can find out how we can do a better job. must be set for Botswana Unified Revenue Service (BURS) for a year, that they must get half of the money The issue of salaries, let me confirm that one of the that they collected, we confirm that it is true sir. We things which we want to do is to improve conditions of permitted them to hold money between 1 per cent and payments. Moreover, I did not deny that Government 2 per cent of the money that they collected. For us to Accounting and Budgeting System (GABS) does not confirm it, they have to come to us first in order to show function the way we expected. So, our efforts to improve us that we have collected this amount of money instead it, perhaps as an advice, we have given it a lot of money. of taking their share on their own without confirming For it to be with us, it is an issue which we discussed, that it is indeed true, we must not find out that they took it was decided that we should assess all Government

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parastatals so that it can benefit all the Ministries. It MOTION is also true that, if it does not happen in the end, the ADJOURNMENT Ministry of Finance will take the responsibility and the burden of all that is here. We will find a better way to LEADER OF THE HOUSE (MR TSOGWANE): Mr do it. Speaker, I move that this House do now adjourn.

Honourable Segokgo will cover the issue of Wi-Fi in Question put and agreed to. his presentation, issues of how he brings services of technology in our country and other areas in towns. The Assembly accordingly adjourned at 6:00 p.m. until Honourable Saleshando also talked about the issue of Thursday 27th February 2020 at 2:00 p.m. Botswana Institute for Development Policy Analysis (BIDPA). Most reports from BIDPA are requested by ministries to seek advice on how they can create programmes and Government processes. There are some reports which they make only if some countries allow them to, those which are found in BIDPA library so that people can read because their other goal is to bring about knowledge and understanding of how things are done. So, kindly go to BIDPA and use their website, you will see other reports which are there.

HONOURABLE MEMBER: …(Murmurs)…

DR MATSHEKA: Yes, learn to use technology, let me put it that way. Honourable Members, it is true that this issues of greylisting will require us to implement what we discussed. Even though that is the case, we are moving on with the target that is set until end of this year, for us to have done all that is required. So, I work with other relevant ministries so that we can speed up this job because it will hinder us if we fail to do what is expected. I want to promise you that, we are going to do all that is necessary because blacklisting us will disadvantage this country. In that manner, it is something that we are closely looking at.

No sir, Mid-Term Review is not hidden. We are almost done with the report and it will be brought to Parliament, it will also pass through the Cabinet. You will see it; a date has been set in our programme where it will be brought to you. We will be able to discuss it as well as agree on what we can do. It does not have anything to do with hiding or the law of information which my colleague talked about.

As Honourable Saleshando said, Government is assessing the issue of levies as we speak. You recall that in the Budget Speech, I talked about these levies that many of them, even though I will answer Honourable Keorapetse later, we found out that it is possible to gather them in one place, it should not be like other laws...

36 Hansard No 196 HANSARD RECORDERS Mr T. Gaodumelwe, Mr T. Monakwe, Ms T. Kebonang HANSARD REPORTERS Mr M. Buti, Ms N. Selebogo, Ms A. Ramadi, Ms D. Thibedi, Ms G. Baotsi, Ms N. Mokoka, Mr J. Samunzala, Ms Z. Molemi

HANSARD TRANSLATORS Ms B. Ntisetsang, Ms M. Sekao, Ms B. Mosinyi, Ms V. Nkwane, Ms N. Kerobale, Ms K. Alepeng, Ms T. Motsau, Ms O. Phesodi, Mr K. Setswe

HANSARD LAYOUT DESIGNERS Mr B. B. Khumanego, Mr D. T. Batshegi, Mr K. Rebaisakae

Hansard No 196 37