Third Session - Thirty-Eighth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs Chairperson Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski Constituency of St. James Vol. LVI No. 2 - 1 p.m., Tuesday, December 21, 2004 ISSN 1708-668X MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Eighth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation AGLUGUB, Cris The Maples N.D.P. ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. CUMMINGS, Glen Ste. Rose P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. LOEWEN, John Fort Whyte P.C. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. MURRAY, Stuart Kirkfield Park P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PENNER, Jack Emerson P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. REIMER, Jack Southdale P.C. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. ROCAN, Denis Carman P.C. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SALE, Tim, Hon. Fort Rouge N.D.P. SANTOS, Conrad Wellington N.D.P. SCHELLENBERG, Harry Rossmere N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. SMITH, Scott, Hon. Brandon West N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P. 23 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA THE STANDING COMMITTEE ON LEGISLATIVE AFFAIRS Tuesday, December 21, 2004 TIME – 1 p.m. Madam Chairperson: This afternoon the committee will be considering the recruitment and selection of LOCATION – Winnipeg, Manitoba the Children's Advocate and the Ombudsman. Copies of the applicable legislation for both of these CHAIRPERSON – Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski (St. positions were circulated at the commencement of James) this meeting. VICE-CHAIRPERSON – Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross Before commencing with the business before the (Fort Garry) committee, did the committee wish to indicate how late it is willing to sit this afternoon? ATTENDANCE – 11 QUORUM – 6 Ms. Irvin-Ross: Till the job gets done. Members of the Committee present: Madam Chairperson: It has been suggested till the Hon. Messrs. Bjornson, Mackintosh job gets done. Is the committee in agreement? Does the committee agree? [Agreed] Messrs. Dewar, Goertzen, Mses. Irvin-Ross, Korzeniowski, Mrs. Mitchelson, Messrs. Penner, When this committee last met, Honourable Mr. Santos, Schellenberg, Mrs. Taillieu Mackintosh had moved the following motion: APPEARING: THAT a subcommittee of the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs consisting of Kerri Irvin-Ross, Mr. Kevin Lamoureux, MLA for Inkster Greg Dewar, PC MLA as designated by a PC caucus be struck to establish the selection criteria, the MATTERS UNDER CONSIDERATION: advertisement, conduct the screening and interviews, and provide to this committee their recommendation Recruitment and Selection of the Children's of the appointment of the individuals to fill the Advocate and Ombudsman positions of the Ombudsman and of the Children's Advocate. *** Mr. Penner subsequently moved the following Clerk Assistant (Ms. JoAnn McKerlie-Korol): amendment: Good afternoon. Will the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs please come to order. THAT the motion be amended by adding the following after the words "PC MLA designated by The first order of business is the election of a the caucus," "a Liberal MLA designated by the Chairperson. Are there any nominations? Leader of the Liberal Party." * (13:10) Ms. Kerri Irvin-Ross (Fort Garry): I would like to nominate Bonnie Korzeniowski, MLA for St. James. At the last meeting, the amendment was under debate with Mr. Lamoureux having the floor. I will Madam Clerk Assistant: Ms. Korzeniowski has now recognize Mr. Lamoureux to continue. been nominated. Are there any further nominations? Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Madam Seeing none, Ms. Korzeniowski, would you Chairperson, the nice thing of having the break is please take the Chair. that I did get a chance to review Hansard, and what I 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 21, 2004 want just to point out is that relatively at the process in which ultimately they approach their beginning, I think it was on page 2 of Hansard, the MLAs. The Ombudsman's office is one of those Government House Leader (Mr. Mackintosh) had offices that we do encourage our constituents to visit indicated that he would suggest that we delegate to a in order to resolve grievances and the same thing in subcommittee of three. The reason why I say that is terms of the Child Advocate. Both offices are because I know the Government House Leader has important, and we do believe that we should have the expressed some concern in the sense that it would ability to be on the hiring committee. appear as if my comment somewhat supported the Liberal Party not necessarily having a voting With those words, I will listen to what others presence on the committee. What I wanted to might have to say. emphasize, and it would be re-emphasize, is the fact that we have these independent offices, and the Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House importance of these offices being independent and Leader): First of all, we came in with a proposal to accountable to the Legislature, I think, is something have a three-MLA interview committee (1) because that is worthy of standing up for and ensuring that all it has been done that way successfully in the recent MLAs have the opportunity to participate. past, and (2) because it is a number that I do not think would be intimidating to a candidate. I appreciate very much the fact of the official opposition and their efforts to ensure that these At the last meeting, I also said that we certainly offices really and truly are independent and recog- would be interested in pursuing the idea of a role or a nize the role that all members of the Legislature have representative from the independent members at this in terms of being provided the opportunity to have committee on the receipt of the report, and then the direct input. What Mr. Mackintosh's motion was member with the support of opposition raised the proposing would be something that would not have issue of representation on the subcommittee. We allowed at least two members of the Legislative have no problem with that, and I made that com- Assembly the opportunity to have that direct input, mitment in the House to pursue that further. I had and I think that that would be a major oversight. We, discussions with the Opposition House Leader and as I am sure, government members and opposition with Mr. Lamoureux, and at that time I had proposed members, have concerns that want to be taken into that we move then to a five-person subcommittee consideration in regard to issues of the independent and that the representative from the Liberals, as offices. proposed by Mr. Penner, be on there and that the Chair of the committee, Mr. Reid, could chair that This afternoon we are talking about two of them subcommittee, in other words, act as a person to get with the Child Advocate's office and the them together. I think that would be a good balance. Ombudsman's office. We have concerns which we would like to ensure that the government and I can also say that, as the House Leader, I do not opposition are aware of and feel it is important that think this is a confidential discussion. The we have representation on the committee itself. I Opposition House Leader thought it was important guess I look to the Government House Leader as to on the basis of a principle for the government to why it is that he would feel that it is not appropriate nonetheless maintain a majority, but I think if the to have all MLAs, all 57 MLAs, have that direct former Chair of this committee, Mr. Reid, is Chair of input. I think that the Government House Leader the subcommittee that there is a fairness that is built should recognize that all political parties, all MLAs, into that. That is what I would propose. So, if there have an interest in children in our province and the would be a good will to amend the motion then to importance of the Ombudsman's office. add that Mr. Reid, as a Chair, be also on that committee, hopefully that will resolve this matter. I can tell you, Madam Chair, that, over the years, Is there going to be a big difference between I have had opportunity to communicate with the three and five members before the applicants? I provincial Ombudsman's office on a wide variety of guess we have to balance our internal interests first different issues.